1 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:16,400 Hi. I'm Helen Avery with the green 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,500 Finance Institute and you're listening to the final episode 3 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:23,400 in our cop, 27, special series of financing nature with the 4 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,700 United Nations environment program. 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,900 In this episode. I'll be joined by Susan, Gardner 6 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:33,300 director of the Ecosystems division at unep and Evo Moulder 7 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,000 head of the climate Finance unit in Susan's team. 8 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:39,100 And we're going to be recapping where we are in terms of the 9 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:41,500 finance, gap, for nature, and the actions. 10 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:43,200 We need to see it. Cop 27. 11 00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:51,000 Hello, and welcome and thank you for joining me for this final 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,600 episode in this short series of financing nature as we lead up 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,000 to cop 27 in partnership with the UN environment program. 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,000 It has been Quite a ride from bonds to venture capital. 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,700 We've tackled deforestation in Latin America, regenerative 16 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:09,800 business Investments, like those happening in Kenya and in 17 00:01:09,808 --> 00:01:11,700 Volcanoes National Park in Rwanda. 18 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:15,300 We've learned about the role king crabs play in stemming the 19 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:17,300 loss of coral, reefs, in mesoamerica. 20 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:20,300 And we've also learned about sustainable business models for 21 00:01:20,308 --> 00:01:24,100 Commodities like rubber in. Indonesia, there have been 22 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:27,700 really clear messages about the need for more Innovative 23 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:31,700 financing including the role of Guarantees and Blended finance 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,700 and the need for us all to listen, more to the experiences 25 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:38,900 and needs of developing economies, many of which are 26 00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:42,300 showing that nature and economic growth and resilience go hand in 27 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:45,900 hand but we're not finished yet today. 28 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:49,600 For this wrap-up episode Jessica may not be with me but I'll be 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,200 joined by un colleagues. The wonderful Susan Gardner 30 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,500 director of the ecosystems division at the UN environment 31 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:59,800 program and Evo Mulder head of the climate. 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,200 It's unit in Susan's. Team will be hearing their views 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,000 on the actions. We need to come out of the cop 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,699 27 meetings that begin Sunday, the 6th of November. 35 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,600 So with that very long lead in, let's bring our guests on. 36 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:23,200 Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Susan an ebow, 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,900 it's a real pleasure to see you in what is the very busy period? 38 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,300 I'm sure nice to talk to you. Thanks a lot. 39 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:31,400 Hello. Nice to talk to you. 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,000 So now we're a few days out and it would just be really great to 41 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,700 hear from each of you on sort of what your affections are for the 42 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:42,600 next few weeks at what's really at stake at cop 27, when it 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,500 comes to Nature and find out, so Susan, I wonder that's come to 44 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:47,000 you. If you could, if you could get 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,000 us going, that's certainly Helen. 46 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:53,200 You know, I think that as countries get ready to arrive to 47 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,500 show more Shake, I think there's a real recognition that it's now 48 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:02,700 or never last year, a cop 26, there was so many important 49 00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:04,700 highlights. So many pledges that came 50 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:06,800 forward. A lot of very strong pledges 51 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,300 from the private sector, for example. 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,800 But this year, the whole headline of this cop is about 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,600 delivering for people and planet and we can see every day that 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,300 we're in an era where We're we're experiencing 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,400 climate-induced disasters daily. So there's real Clarity that we 56 00:03:26,408 --> 00:03:28,200 need to shift the game, we need to do it. 57 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,000 Now we have to move from the great pledges that we have two 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,300 action on those pledges and as the Director of the ecosystems 59 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:40,800 division at unit, my role is to support countries in investing 60 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,800 in nature for people for the sustainable development, in 61 00:03:43,808 --> 00:03:49,000 their countries because nature based Solutions particular for 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,400 I'm at changed. They have so much potential in a 63 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,200 cost-effective way to advance, both climate mitigation and 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,600 climate adaptation while at the same time, having all these 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,200 other co-benefits so helping to protect and preserve 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,700 biodiversity reducing land, degradation supporting people 67 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:10,600 and livelihoods. One thing that's fake is to 68 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,100 really Unleash the Power of Nature and to do it in a way 69 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:19,200 where it's in addition to Rapid serious, extensive Of 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,899 decarbonization both going forward. 71 00:04:21,899 --> 00:04:23,900 So that leaders can ensure that we're advancing. 72 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:27,100 Both of these tools, both of these powerful approaches at the 73 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:28,200 same time. Eve. 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,600 Oh, I'm sure you will say feel this sense of urgency. 75 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,300 Thanks a lot Helen. So I mean to complement, Susan, 76 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:39,000 I think the basic message is that time is up. 77 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,400 So what is at stake? I think what people have seen 78 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:46,600 this year in Europe is Rivers drying up. 79 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:52,200 Good good not be delivered. Two factories, some shops being 80 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,300 empty. The Yangtze river in. 81 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:56,900 China running dry. We've also factories and power 82 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:59,300 plants. Basically have to shut down. 83 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,700 There was a major I shelf in East and other car, the Congo, a 84 00:05:03,707 --> 00:05:08,700 shelf, that collapsed and lots. And lots of course of Doom and 85 00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:12,200 Gloom messaging, but that is, is simply the result of the 86 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,300 inadequate action that we've taken. 87 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:18,700 So, we're basically staring in the headlight of a truck and we 88 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:23,900 see I'm paralyzed about treating it as the crisis that it really 89 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:27,800 is. So my first point is that time 90 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,100 is up the second. Is that a lot of countries have 91 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,200 made pledges around providing a hundred billion dollars a year 92 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:38,700 to developing countries and as the o.c. is Quantified only 83 93 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:43,200 billion was transferred both in Grants and concessional 94 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,500 financing and Loans to developing country governments 95 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,400 in 2020. So there's a hundred billion 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,000 dollar pledge. Something that is and will be on 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,800 the table. A lot of development Finance 98 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,000 institutions and mdbs have made a nature pledge at cop 26 in 99 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,200 Glasgow and so fast forward, 12 months from now after the lights 100 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,600 were turned off and the champagne was running dry. 101 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:08,800 My question to them is what if you're done? 102 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,300 Because for a lot of mdbs nature Finance represents either 103 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:17,000 non-existing or tiny percentage of their balance sheet so 104 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,600 they'll have to get real on this. 105 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:24,300 And for all guests come companies and and force a hard 106 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:30,100 to evade sectors, they cannot see investing in nature as a as 107 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:32,500 a way of not continuing business. 108 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:37,200 As usual, we will have to face out investments in coal or gas 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,600 as soon as possible, and that can include investing in nature 110 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,500 as part of the solutions, but it's not about investing a few 111 00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:48,500 hundred million dollars to protect forests while at the 112 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:50,400 same time. Keep on investing, billions of 113 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,700 dollars in exploring your own gas reserves. 114 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:56,600 So that is basically what's at stake at cop 27 in my view, 115 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,800 obviously the sense of urgency is really, really heightened you 116 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,800 both with clarified that it's terrifying. 117 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:07,600 And so this cop is really like, how do we get the money moving? 118 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:09,500 As you mentioned, there have been lots of pledges and 119 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:12,400 commitments but you are we actually moving the money. 120 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,800 How much money do we need to get moving? 121 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,500 What's the total Finance Gap? Well, as it stands right now, 122 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:24,000 clearly were underperforming globally in terms of investing 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:30,100 and opportunities to utilize nature for climate by 2030, the 124 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:33,200 state of Finance for nature report indicates that we need to 125 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,800 at least triple investments in nature based Solutions. 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,900 If we want to keep global warming below 2 degrees. 127 00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:42,600 And I mean, if you look at the numbers, it's very clear right 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,700 now. There's only about a little over 129 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:48,900 150 billion dollars per year. That's The finance going towards 130 00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:52,600 nature based Solutions. But that's less than half of 131 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,300 what we actually need which is more around, 370 billion per 132 00:07:57,300 --> 00:08:01,800 year by 2030, this needs to increase to four hundred and 133 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,500 thirty billion dollars a year. So we're behind Investments need 134 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:08,400 to increase at least twelve percent every year and 135 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,500 immediately for so long. We've been talking about why we 136 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:15,400 need to do this. We've been making the case, 137 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,300 we're all very fluent and making the case. 138 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:21,500 For the risks and those impacts climate change and the science 139 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:26,100 is clear but now we really have to focus on how we do it and 140 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:29,700 that is about bridging that Finance Gap. 141 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:36,100 We can look at doing this by really quantifying the public 142 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:38,900 and private Capital flows that are needed for investing in 143 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:42,000 nature based Solutions and draw that road map. 144 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,700 That helps us to achieve that full potential. 145 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,000 At the same time, we could do that again. 146 00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:51,200 We Able to get all these other benefits were able to reduce 147 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,100 biodiversity loss. Were able to actually restore 148 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:58,700 close to a billion actors of degraded land and we can do it 149 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:03,400 in a way that is consistent with just transitions. 150 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,600 So so all of these benefits that we get from bridging this 151 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,900 Finance Gap or added to the essential need to do this 152 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:14,800 quickly and now for mitigation and adaptation goals. 153 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,300 So coming to you Eva, we have These huge Finance cap, we can't 154 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:21,700 rely only on governments. We've had a lot throughout this 155 00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:26,500 podcast series that keto savonia pointed out that 70% of funding 156 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:28,400 for Africa, conservation comes from governments. 157 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:29,600 It's just not going to be sustainable. 158 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,700 Is it so what are your thoughts about where, how we're going to 159 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:33,000 get private sector, Capital moving? 160 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,200 Yeah. - Susan highlighted, the state of financial nature report 161 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,200 basically says me to more than double investments in nature in 162 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,100 the next three years. That is of course a huge 163 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:47,400 challenge that we have in front of us. 164 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:51,800 But given the levels of indebtedness of of governments 165 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:54,400 especially in developing countries but also in developed 166 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,100 countries, as you said Helen the majority of money will have to 167 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:03,600 come from private Finance. I already talked about the 168 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:06,000 multilateral development bank's and development Finance 169 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,200 institutions. So one way how this could be 170 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,500 done is for mdbs and DF is to use their balance sheet and more 171 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,700 flexible manners, including taking More risk, providing more 172 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:22,200 concessional Finance to crowd in private Finance. 173 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,800 First of all, second is that a lot of companies have made 174 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,400 pledges to basically stop an end deforestation or half 175 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,000 deforestation by 2020 and ended all together by 2030. 176 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,200 Concrete example, is the SOS Cerrado Manifesto? 177 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,300 Where 160 consumer goods companies and Supermarket. 178 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:47,100 Chains have committed to not Source or from areas that were 179 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:51,300 deforested. It unep recently supported a soy 180 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,400 Finance scheme in Brazil called the responsible Commodities 181 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,500 facility. And after speaking to all these 182 00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:00,900 160 companies, only three of them came forward, Tesco 183 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:05,800 Sainsbury's, and waitrose they put in 11 million, u.s. dollars 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,300 into it. Obviously, in Phase 2. 185 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:12,400 We hope that this will go to 100 million plus, but if you take 186 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,600 into account that the soy Market itself is between 25 and 30, 187 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,200 Million u.s. dollars than 11 million dollars is dropping the 188 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,600 ocean. So my question is, what are the 189 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,800 other 157 companies doing that have made the pledge? 190 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,500 Are they walking the talk? And if not, I would say the time 191 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:33,700 of voluntary commitments, without a Time, bound roadmap is 192 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:36,600 simply not possible anymore. That is unacceptable. 193 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Companies need to realize that they cannot make these kind of 194 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,200 commitments. And the kind of transition a 195 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,900 zero cost is should see it as a kind of Of a research and 196 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,400 development phase to transition to more sustainable business 197 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,800 models. And even if it would be at the 198 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:58,700 expense of the bottom line for a number of years, that is 199 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:00,800 something that will have to be accepted. 200 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:05,400 At the same time, not all the cost and risk can be borne by by 201 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,000 private companies. And this is also where both 202 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,700 governments and also multilateral, development Banks, 203 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:13,900 should take away some of the risk in a form of guarantees 204 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,800 grants and concessional Loans, in equity. 205 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,100 And this is Aware. I think they can help completely 206 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,100 help transition the private sector. 207 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:27,300 Soon as possible way from say in nature - climate - business 208 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:29,400 model towards a NetZero nature post. 209 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,300 I mean some of this isn't new is that we've been talking about 210 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:35,900 private sector stepping up for a while. 211 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:38,300 Now we've been talking about Blended finance and these 212 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:41,400 guarantees and de-risking for four decades. 213 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,100 Little Berry climate Finance. Now we're talking about nature 214 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,700 finance and what are your thoughts Susan around how we 215 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000 Close this Finance Gap. Well, it's clear. 216 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,200 It's going to take. Take more ambition as you go 217 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,000 with saying it's going to take transparency and accountability. 218 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,400 The secretary-general just recently also called for that 219 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,800 holding private sector to account for really delivering on 220 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,100 pledges and delivering of this ambition. 221 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:10,800 And there's concrete things we can do to help to ensure that we 222 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,900 have financial institutions, businesses and policy makers all 223 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:20,500 working together for example, have A clear goal for finance 224 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,400 and finance for nature. Specifically, is one way to 225 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,600 ensure that we're all aligned on a vision and a common ambition? 226 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,600 We can also leverage voluntary, private Finance initiatives by 227 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,900 making sure that Public Finance is strategically delivered, to 228 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:43,700 incentivize, private Finance, to shift towards Investments, that 229 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:45,800 have a positive impact on nature. 230 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,400 For example, repurposing. And subsidies has been discussed 231 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,200 a lot if we look at subsidies that are harmful for nature. 232 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,000 There's probably right now somewhere around 500 billion to 233 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,500 a trillion per year globally. And these are things like 234 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,200 subsidies for you know, Fisheries or agriculture, fossil 235 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,400 fuels, this is several times greater than all public and 236 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,500 private investment right now in nature based Solutions. 237 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:14,700 So if we can get the right incentives in place and could 238 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:19,100 actually start to see an expansion, And standardization 239 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,200 in nature positive, finance and begin to close that Gap. 240 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,800 It means that domestically we have to invest more in nature 241 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,700 positive, sectors. It also means having for 242 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:35,400 coherence of policy and a demanding that that coherence is 243 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,500 there in lending operations of multilateral, development Banks, 244 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,200 and making sure that all of these actions are consistent 245 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,000 with the Paris agreement, which will also, you know, meet Global 246 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,600 goals on biodiversity and land. Aggregation neutrality there's 247 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,800 been recent studies of 12,000 different funds that represents 248 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:01,400 over 20 trillion US dollars of assets under management and only 249 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,100 about 11% were aligned with the Paris agreement to stay within 250 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,000 two degrees temperature increase. 251 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:14,000 So that shows how much more progress we need in terms of 252 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:17,700 coherency there under the Glasgow financials? 253 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,600 A net zero. There was more than 450 254 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,900 financial institutions that represent about 130 trillion 255 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:28,100 dollars in private Capital that have announced commitments to 256 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,100 Net Zero by 2050. So we have a lot of reason to 257 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:33,700 believe that we're moving in the right direction. 258 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:38,200 We can do this but we have to make sure that we're creating 259 00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:42,600 and expanding the results based financing scheme. 260 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,300 So we include that transparency and accountability. 261 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:49,400 There's a one of the vital element elements is that we have 262 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,800 the right economic value of carbon so that it can drive 263 00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:58,400 commodity Supply chains to be more sustainable. 264 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,700 And so having that pricing is especially important in areas 265 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,500 like the tropics. So one of the key factors is 266 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:09,300 making sure that carbon pricing is part of the solution to help 267 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,400 reorient Capital flows towards environmentally and socially 268 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:18,000 sustainable approaches. I was recently at a conference 269 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,100 with a room of asset managers and financial institutions. 270 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:23,800 And their question was put forward, I will be the biggest 271 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,400 driver for financing for nature and it was pressing around 272 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,700 carbon markets. So Evo coming to you mean you 273 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:35,500 mentioned a couple of specifics are around public sector D 274 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:38,900 risking the use of guarantees, any thoughts yourself and how we 275 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:44,100 how we close the finance Gap? I mean one meeting that is 276 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,500 coming. Of course, in the next few days 277 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:49,700 is cop 27. And in Sharm el-sheikh, another 278 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:51,200 important meeting that is around. 279 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,600 The corner is the second part of cop15 in Montreal where 280 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,400 hopefully governments agree on a ambitious, Global biodiversity 281 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,300 framework. You can see it as the nature 282 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:05,000 equivalent of the Paris agreement, and this is exactly 283 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,200 what we need, at least for governments to hardwire. 284 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:15,800 Those ambitious Targets in a global treaty, and Dele also 285 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,500 move towards National legislation around it so that it 286 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,900 becomes legally binding as well. Think the second point is for 287 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:28,800 Rich Nations to finally live up to the promise of delivering a 288 00:17:28,808 --> 00:17:33,800 hundred billion dollars per year to developing countries, both to 289 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,600 adapt to climate change, and of course also help to mitigate 290 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:41,500 emissions. It was quite interesting when 291 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:47,600 Joe Biden came in office, he calls for a climate Summit and I 292 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,500 joined as a as one of the listeners and most of the heads 293 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,400 of state from developing countries were calling for a 294 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,900 debt restructuring or debt forgiveness. 295 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,600 And so given the levels of economic impact from the covid 296 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,000 prizes, the recent increase in food prices and energy prices. 297 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,200 I think that for nature swaps that for climate swaps is 298 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,100 something that I would expect will be on the Jenna of cop 27. 299 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:19,600 And again I think both multilateral development bank's 300 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:22,200 and development Finance institutions, have a key role to 301 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,300 play here. My last point is that the 302 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:27,600 private sector will have to put their money where their mouth 303 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,600 is. As I said before, a lot of 304 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:34,600 pledges were made it, not that you can sort of have your cake 305 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,500 and eat it. If you make some promises, then 306 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:41,300 you need a Time bound roadmap to to deliver on that. 307 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:43,800 It's not just about drinking champagne. 308 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,800 And And in whether or not you live up to this, it is about 309 00:18:47,800 --> 00:19:02,300 actually making it happen. Who what we haven't talked about 310 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:05,900 this series? However, is systemic change. 311 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,300 I think, you know, we've discussed we absolutely must get 312 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:13,600 Capital flowing now into nature based Solutions and restoration 313 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,900 But ultimately the goal is surely to have Nature's value 314 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,500 embedded in our economic. And financial systems, this 315 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:25,300 shift to Nature positive economy that we often discuss. 316 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,200 And given these two cops are so close together and the 317 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,800 conversation feels really ripe around biodiversity loss at the 318 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,600 moment and the urgency to move money towards it. 319 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:39,000 Is this the moment? Do you think we're that 320 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,500 conversation will start to take more shape? 321 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,500 Yeah, I think this is the moment and I think it's about the way 322 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:51,400 we value and treat nature. That we can begin to recognize 323 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,500 it as something that's indispensable that's key to our 324 00:19:55,500 --> 00:20:00,000 own Survival that that's just recognized and understood that 325 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,200 we begin to see for example, a forest as its value, being not 326 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,900 just in the price sold for lumber. 327 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:11,700 But in fact understanding the true value is the services that 328 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,700 an intact ecosystem, can provide the livelihoods for the 329 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:19,700 communities, the food, the water stability, all of those things. 330 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,000 All of Services that those ecosystems provide. 331 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,000 So it requires a real mindset shift. 332 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,900 If we begin to see politicians heads of state businesses, 333 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,500 financial institutions, and you know, individual citizens. 334 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:39,400 Starting to have a change in their mindset where they want to 335 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,700 work with nature, have the benefits of nature rather than 336 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,300 continuing to wage a war of nature. 337 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:48,300 We can really begin to see the political will shift. 338 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,500 We can see. The Regulatory and economic 339 00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:55,500 incentives, that would be necessary to really underpin a 340 00:20:55,508 --> 00:20:59,400 fundamental redirection. And we know that we can do this, 341 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,900 we've seen great examples, we have a lot of information and we 342 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:08,200 see the momentum building and we have examples like the task 343 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,200 force on nature related Financial disclosures, which is 344 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:16,000 a great tool to facilitate reporting on the risks as they 345 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,000 relate to Nature shifting. Finance from A true negative 346 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,400 towards nature positive. We've seen this can happen in 347 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,100 other ways and the climate space where for example, 348 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:32,300 climate-related disclosures or now just widely adopted 349 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:34,700 worldwide with industry and increasingly. 350 00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:38,000 We're seeing them and Regulatory Frameworks is requirements. 351 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,500 I think another area where we have to really look closely is 352 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:46,200 our Reliance on systems of national accounting like GDP 353 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:51,400 that don't include any measure of the impacts of Activities on 354 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,100 nature and don't recognize the dependencies of our economies on 355 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:59,200 nature. Nor the economic costs of 356 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,000 collapse of Nature and ecosystem services. 357 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,700 So we know we have better systems in place than that. 358 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,300 We know that we can actually include statistics, that show 359 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:12,300 the conditions of ecosystems and the show the importance of the 360 00:22:12,308 --> 00:22:16,800 services that ecosystems provide quantitatively and economically. 361 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,900 You know, I do believe that this, not wishful thinking that, 362 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,300 Actually can become the norm and show a better pathway forward. 363 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,300 Is that fantastic reminder? A sheet the system of 364 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,300 environmental economics accounting, ecosystem 365 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,400 accounting. That it's a bit of a work about 366 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,800 fall but something I think we don't talk about enough and 367 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,800 certainly the moment we're in developed, economies thinking 368 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,000 about D growth, it's probably something we should all be 369 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,700 looking at bit more how we review GDP, even what are your 370 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,900 thoughts, building on what Susan? 371 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,600 Mentioned in terms of the systemic changes that are 372 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,200 needed. I mean, you see the EU moving 373 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,200 at, for example, with the law on tackling tropical deforestation, 374 00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,900 this would prohibit the import of seven Commodities that are 375 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:06,500 linked to deforestation from entering the EU if they came 376 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:09,900 from deforested area. So, whereas in the past it would 377 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,600 be based on an ask to do it very soon. 378 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,600 We'll see a law basically requiring for this to be done as 379 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,300 Susan mentioned. First, it seems we focus on on 380 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:23,900 climate, then we focus on nature. 381 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,600 So there's of course, the task force on climate related. 382 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,900 Financial disclosure. Switzerland has moved ahead to 383 00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:33,900 make that a law on the task force, for nature related 384 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:37,700 Financial disclosure, I co-founded the predecessor, the 385 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,900 national capital Finance Alliance, and I very much 386 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:46,300 advocated for a hardwiring of nature, dependency and impact in 387 00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:49,200 business decisions. And then in the way the 388 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,000 financial Actor, assesses and prices risk related to to made 389 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,300 nature impact. So it's good to see this this 390 00:23:56,300 --> 00:24:00,100 coming and perhaps a third sort of systemic issue. 391 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,400 Also beyond the need for repurposing. 392 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,200 Agricultural policies is around trate. 393 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,800 Trate is a very big important part of the global economy. 394 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,200 It was interesting that recently Indonesia. 395 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,200 And so, it's an agreed on a new Trade Agreement where tariff 396 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,400 reductions are linked to force protections. 397 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:21,900 So it gives direct incentive to basically Export Commodities is 398 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,600 f in producing sustainable way. Thereby also provided 399 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,100 much-needed incentives for farmers and producers and 400 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,600 processes to put this in place because this is an often hurt 401 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,500 and and I think very valid complaint by a lot of developing 402 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,500 countries, they say you want us to produce sustainably but who's 403 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:43,200 going to pay for it and then of course, it cannot be. 404 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,300 That those who make very little money are in the end on the 405 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,900 Frontline of being asked, not to come. 406 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,300 Cut down the forest. While a consumer in a rich 407 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:54,800 nation. Is basically benefiting from the 408 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,800 cheapest price possible for that same commodity. 409 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:02,200 Yeah, so wrapping up and it's a big question to wrap up on is 410 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,300 we've heard from both of you that there's this, we need 411 00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:08,500 greater ambition, we've heard from our guests, that there is a 412 00:25:08,508 --> 00:25:15,300 nervousness that the ambition may be diluted certainly since 413 00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:19,000 cop last year because of multiple crises including a war. 414 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,500 Economic pressures that we're seeing across the globe at the 415 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,200 moment. I mean, how can we collectively 416 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,800 keep that ambition high at cop 27 and Indies or moving forward 417 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,400 with that? Momentum into copper 15 Susan, 418 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:35,700 there shouldn't be nervousness. No one should be taking this 419 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:40,300 lightly as a global Community. We have to accept that we're out 420 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,200 of time as we were saying earlier and, you know, we're out 421 00:25:43,208 --> 00:25:45,800 of excuses as well. We know what we need to do and 422 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,900 we're reminded every day by devastating disasters and eat. 423 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,200 Each one reminds us in quantitative economic terms as 424 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,300 well as human life. That the cost of inaction, far 425 00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:03,000 exceeds the cost of action. So to do this in a credible way, 426 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,300 we just have to keep up the ambition and we have to 427 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:08,500 collaborate across sectors across borders. 428 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,500 We need everybody, we need all hands on deck. 429 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,300 The state of Finance for an engaging report calls, for more 430 00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,600 financial institutions and businesses to be part of the 431 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,200 solution. So that We can accelerate 432 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,300 together investors developers. Those that design. 433 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:28,900 The market infrastructure. Also, the public is consumers, 434 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:33,200 all of us together, creating a market with new sources of 435 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,400 revenue for nature based solutions that increases the 436 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,100 resilience American of our economies, but also increases 437 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,500 the resilience and the prosperity for our future. 438 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,600 So, yeah, it's good that we're not taking this lightly. 439 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,900 We need to be very clear that now is the moment. 440 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,400 But for action really great Point Season. 441 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,900 As you say, we all know what needs to be done and the time 442 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:01,200 for excuses is over and also the time for you know keeping 443 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,500 discussions around economic risk and growth climate and nature 444 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:07,400 separate. Feels like it's over to. 445 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:12,000 But evoke over to you for closing remarks here today. 446 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:16,400 What's your hope for cock 27 and how do you think we keep that 447 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,400 ambition? Hi. 448 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:19,900 Well, I think it's never a good time. 449 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,400 For change. I mean, people could easily 450 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,100 point to the war that's happening in Ukraine or the high 451 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:30,600 inflation that you see in other countries as an excuse, not to 452 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,300 act. But the way how the human brain 453 00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:38,000 is is wired, is that if things are good people say things are 454 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,200 great. So why change? 455 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,400 And if things are bad people say, it's not a good moment. 456 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,900 So come back, when things are good. 457 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:47,900 So it's never the right time. But as Susan said, we're running 458 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:52,800 out of excuses and If we did, what we, what if we do, what we 459 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,300 did, we get what we got and and where did that leave us? 460 00:27:56,500 --> 00:28:00,200 Basically a planet that's on track of a free point, two to 461 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,000 three point. Nine degree warming. 462 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,100 We see what kind of destructive already seeing at the one point, 463 00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:09,000 one degree warming when you only have to apply your imagination 464 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,600 to see what the world would look like, what. 465 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,000 It also looks like, is the unraveling of the fabric of life 466 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,700 and, of course, more than 1 billion hectares of the graded 467 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,400 land. So, as Susan said, Run out of 468 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,200 excuses and time is up. It's changed possible? 469 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,300 Yes, it is to give you two examples, so Costa Rica made a 470 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:31,800 conscious decision back in the 80s when most of its forests 471 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,000 were depleted to apply fuel tax where they use the revenue to 472 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,500 incentivize reforestation. And they basically move from a 473 00:28:40,508 --> 00:28:46,400 forest cover of only 21 percent in 1987 to 52 percent in 2010 474 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,800 beyond the fuel taxi, of course, also need other kinds of 475 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000 Instruments, including deaf nature swaps funding by the 476 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,500 World Bank by the UN the green climate fund, but it shows that 477 00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,800 if you have political will you can actually make it happen in 478 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,200 Denmark about half of the domestic energy. 479 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,500 Production is coming from renewable energy. 480 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:12,200 One of the biggest companies in the past was called our state 481 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,700 and our said basically phased out its fossil fuel assets, in 482 00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:20,500 only a matter of 45 years and it's now the biggest Renewable 483 00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:24,100 energy producer in Denmark, with about six, gigawatts of 484 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,400 installed capacity, Denmark. The Danish government is 485 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,900 investing into what they call Energy Islands. 486 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:32,900 These are the kinds of Investments that in the past, 487 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,400 you would never have seen for, say renewable energy production, 488 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,500 and we need that same kind of mentality for investing in 489 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,600 force, protection, and ocean Health as well. 490 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,400 And I think I think human Ingenuity is endless, the time, 491 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,100 basically is very limited. And it's not an impossibility. 492 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:55,200 I think human brain. If it realizes that we need to 493 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,000 act is something we can. I think we've proven that it's 494 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,700 happening and buy some companies by some countries, it simply 495 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,900 needs to become the norm and not the exception. 496 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,700 As, as Susan mentioned. We are cutting it, fine. 497 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:13,300 I think is, is the message I'm getting its, there's still time, 498 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,800 but not much of it. And will thank you both so much 499 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,800 for giving us time today. I know it's incredibly busy. 500 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 That you have indeed up to this very important conference. 501 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,300 Thank you both so much. Thank you Helen. 502 00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:28,400 Thank you for having the series of conversations about such an 503 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,000 important topic right now. Yeah, thanks Susan, and thanks 504 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:39,800 Helen. Well, that is it from us today? 505 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,800 And from our cop, 27 special series with the UN environment 506 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,200 program. I hope you enjoyed it as much as 507 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,100 me and have found these episodes. 508 00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:50,700 Really helpful in informing your own messaging. 509 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:54,900 As we go into cop 27, it's imperative that we sequester 510 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:58,800 carbon and nature offers us that tool when its operating at full 511 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,800 capacity, it's essential, we start to adapt to the inevitable 512 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,700 increase in global warming and nature. 513 00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:08,800 Again provides a solution from economic resilience, to 514 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,400 individual health and well-being. 515 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,700 Nature is our Ally and it's time. 516 00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:15,900 We invested in her. As I will know, I'm preaching to 517 00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:19,200 the converted and it's worth me saying that many of the examples 518 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,000 mentioned in. Theories are written up as case 519 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,900 studies on GFI Hive. If you don't know how to find 520 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:33,400 it, that's www.greenapple.co.nz /g fi Hive do reach out on 521 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,900 LinkedIn to Jessica and myself. If you're heading to cop, 27 and 522 00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,700 share your messages around nature and finance over the two 523 00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:41,800 weeks of the conference, we'd love to hear them. 524 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:44,900 And here at financing nature, we're going to be taking a bit 525 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:47,300 of a break for a few weeks, while it all happens. 526 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,800 But I will be back in December for a two-part. 527 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:54,400 Special for cop15 its conference season and we're going to have 528 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,300 some really well-known names. Join us for those episodes and 529 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:00,700 I'm super excited about it and looking forward to sharing that 530 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:04,000 with you and then next year will return to a steady drumbeat of 531 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,400 interviews with inspiring guests who are working across finance 532 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,100 and nature to help turn the tide on biodiversity loss and move us 533 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,300 into a nature positive global economy. 534 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,500 If I still have you thank you very much for listening and 535 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,800 supporting the series until December I hope you stay well. 536 00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:21,600 Well, and stay in touch. See you then.