1 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:19,410 Hi, I'm Helen Avery with the Green Finance Institute, and 2 00:00:19,410 --> 00:00:22,090 you're listening to Financing Nature this week. 3 00:00:22,090 --> 00:00:25,410 I'm joined today by Nicholas Pascal, founder of the Blue 4 00:00:25,410 --> 00:00:27,890 Alliance, to talk about how their model is bringing 5 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:31,610 investment into the protection of marine protected areas. 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,160 Today and for the next 6-7 years, we're going to pay them 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,400 with grants. We have more or less 120 8 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,960 permanent staff on the payroll, on our payroll. 9 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:50,000 These people are locals, they're Indonesian, Filipinos and and 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,600 Tanzanian. We pay them with grants, OK. 11 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,520 We have long term partnership. We're looking for new ones also. 12 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,360 Meanwhile, we are deploying our portfolio of reef positive 13 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,680 businesses. We also show enterprises, if you 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,960 want, in aquaculture, in fisheries and in the 15 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:11,720 culturalism, and these companies will generate dividends. 16 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,960 Hello and thank you for joining us for Episode 3 in our special 17 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:25,880 Revenues for Nature series. Just to remind you that Revenues 18 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,120 for Nature is a programme we run with UNEP FI and UNDP Biofin 19 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,640 that seeks to scale and replicate models that are 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,880 already unlocking private sector investment into nature 21 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,160 restoration and nature based solutions. 22 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,200 And we are continuing this week looking at oceans and marine 23 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,080 models with a deep dive today into the work of Blue Alliance. 24 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,360 We've been looking at some collective action models already 25 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,120 where multiple corporates are brought together to invest, 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,400 chiefly for resilient supply chains, but also reporting 27 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,720 requirements. So we've seen responsible 28 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,160 commodities facilities and the fisheries improvement Fund. 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,600 Next week we'll be looking at the Remba Collective and also 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,720 the following week the Lens model. 31 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,000 But Blue Alliance is a little bit different. 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,440 As founder Nicholas Pascal is going to explain to us today. 33 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,200 It essentially supports the development of local reef 34 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,840 positive businesses, supporting that local economy. 35 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,960 And a percentage of the profits then go to paying for the work 36 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,560 conducted by Blue Alliance on ensuring Mpas are in fact 37 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,120 protected but far better. We hear about it from Nicholas, 38 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:43,360 so let's invite him on. Well, Nicholas, firstly, thank 39 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:44,720 you so much for joining us today. 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,760 It's a real pleasure to see you. And I know you've been 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,600 travelling furiously around the world, so thanks for fitting us 42 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,960 in in what must be a pretty difficult jet lagged period. 43 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,160 It's my pleasure. Thank you. 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,880 So obviously we're going to talk about Blue Alliance today. 45 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,400 And you know, as we've discussed the, the theme of this 46 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,080 particular series of the podcast is really like, how do we get 47 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,680 investment moving for our nature restoration goals? 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,760 And you know, but a lot of people start at the end and look 49 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,440 at, well, you know, how let's do 100 billion commitment with a 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,680 fund when actually it's, it's there's nuts and bolts are 51 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,600 needed much further down than that, sort of developing revenue 52 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,080 models. And I think Blue Alliance has 53 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,920 done this incredibly well for the marine protected area 54 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,880 sector. So I suppose before we get going 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,960 on what Blue Alliance has done and and then get your views on 56 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,840 more generally what how we can move things forward, could you 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,120 just share with us the challenge of marine protected areas at the 58 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,760 moment when it comes to investment and funding? 59 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,560 First of all, if you if you talk about investment, it's a big 60 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,480 word because investment brings together with some kind of of 61 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,800 return, OK. So financial return, there's no 62 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,520 financial return in a very protected area in PA, but it can 63 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,160 be a lot of impact returns, OK. So in terms of investment, it 64 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,400 depends what you're looking for. But usually speaking for for 65 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,200 usual investor, there's no financial return putting money 66 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,480 into NPA, OK, this is grant funding philanthropy. 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,640 So basically this is one of the main challenge we have for most 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,320 of the APS in the world. I think we have 18,000, so, so 69 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,720 one 870% are paperbacks, OK. So meaning that they are 70 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,920 designated, but nothing is happening on the field. 71 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,760 So you don't have any patrol or Rangers enforcing the illegal 72 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,600 fishing or the districtive fishing. 73 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,880 So you have a lot of things happening on the field, OK, 74 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,000 especially in the countries where we are working on 75 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:46,640 Tanzania, Philippines and Indonesia. 76 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,400 So I would say one of the main challenges is also is financing, 77 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,920 OK. So bringing philanthropy into 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,480 the MPA world is something we are working on is not that easy 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,360 because philanthropists like to solve an issue with a magic 80 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,160 wand. So this is not going to work 81 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,480 like this because we need a long term commitment. 82 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:10,280 And it's if agreed, when you start helping an MPA, you will 83 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,800 never know when you have to stop because you'll never stop. 84 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,800 Accepted government comes and increase the fund. 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,440 But I mean in the countries where we are working, this is 86 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,040 not going to happen very soon or or or never again. 87 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,280 So we have to find another model. 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,480 OK, we have some other models working around and some you have 89 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,760 some what they call debt swap, you have some Conservation Trust 90 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,720 funds, a thing like this, but it's part of a solution, OK, we 91 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,280 need to find other solution. So what's why we have developed 92 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,120 in our case something very original that exists in the 93 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,400 terrestrial but does not exist so much in the marine side, 94 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,920 which is creating around the vast justificate, so vast a 95 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,440 large MPA. So we're talking about 500,000 96 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,120 hectares or or more, creating a whole economy around the 97 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,720 conservation, the conservation LED economy, a blue economy. 98 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,880 So you're creating something which is good for people and 99 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,400 good for nature. And at the same time you're 100 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:07,920 creating something which is bankable. 101 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,160 And the bankability brings obviously new money because 102 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,240 you're not only digging into philanthropist, but you're also 103 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,040 digging into impact investment. So it's about creating this 104 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,480 sustainable long term funding stream for Mpas provided by 105 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,800 profit making businesses in economies local to those areas. 106 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,480 But before we delve into that part in more detail, I wondered 107 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,960 if we could just back out a bit and if you could share with us 108 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,080 where in the world do you work and and give us a bit of an 109 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,240 overview of how that work has developed since you established 110 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,640 Blue Alliance in 2015. So today as you mentioned, we 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:51,240 were born in 2015, since 2023 in the Philippines, we have 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:58,360 mandates to manage approximately 900,000 hectares of MPs or O 113 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,320 ECM. Now all very effective 114 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,480 conservation measures that, but basically we, we have a mandate 115 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,440 to manage 900,000 hectares of coral reef ecosystems in 116 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,880 Indonesia since 2023. We have a mandate to manage 117 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,760 800,000 hectares. And in Tanzania since twenty 118 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,240 20s, our two years, we have a mandate to manage 27,000 119 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,840 hectares and we're going to grow and expand next next year. 120 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,560 So pick up yours. I don't know if we take, for 121 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,400 example, the case of Indonesia. So we sign maybe a provincial 122 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,440 government. So so you have central 123 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,240 provincial and you have to have the the local government. 124 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,000 So we sign a long term delegation of of the MPA. 125 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,000 So we say, OK, you have the paper part here. 126 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,880 We think we can help you manage this MPA together with 127 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,520 government. So basically they're not doing a 128 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,200 lot of things and that's so it's just not very hard to have them. 129 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,280 But can we sign something for 10 years that says exactly what we 130 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,080 do, what we bring in terms of what we finance or what we going 131 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,800 to Co finance and this kind of thing. 132 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,840 So this agreement is signed in in the three countries for 10 133 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,320 years renewable. So that means that we are there 134 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,560 for many years, many, many many years and 2030, fifty years or 135 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,400 more. And this MPA is something we Co 136 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,040 manage together. So basically there's a real 137 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,120 mandate as a delegation of management reverted to us where 138 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,720 for example in Indonesia we can patrol with the authorities. 139 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,400 So we have our own boats, we have our own vessels, we have 140 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,680 our own motorcycles and cars and things like this. 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,440 And we bring the authorities that don't have most of the 142 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,120 equipment needed. And we patrol together. 143 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,080 But we do also science community engagement, community 144 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,080 development. There's a lot of work going on 145 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,280 here. So really working alongside 146 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,280 governments to manage Mpas, as you say, and that mandate is not 147 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,480 only impressive but super helpful in being able to deliver 148 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,920 that the work that you're doing. I'm sure you have a lot of 149 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 stories from those patrols that you're doing together, but could 150 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,160 you talk us also through how that work is subsidised or 151 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,480 supported by the business development that you're also 152 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,160 doing in those countries? So, so basically today and for 153 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,560 the next 6-7 years, we're going to pay them big grants. 154 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,920 OK. So all this stuff, we have more 155 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,240 or less 120 permanent staff on the payroll, on our payroll. 156 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,280 These people are locals, they're Indonesian, Filipinos and and 157 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Tanzanian. We pay them with grants, OK. 158 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,800 We have long term partnership. We're looking for new ones also. 159 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Meanwhile, we are deploying our portfolio of reef positive 160 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,960 businesses. We also saw enterprises, if you 161 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,920 want, in agriculture, in fisheries and in the culturalism 162 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,080 and these companies. So today we have 7, these seven 163 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,040 companies will generate dividends because we own them. 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,920 We own these companies and they are ours. 165 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:55,040 They will generate dividends enough to finance the whole MPs. 166 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,280 OK, So that's the business model. 167 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,080 OK. So it's it's a bit like the EKR 168 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,600 Foundation, you know the EKR model where you have the EKR 169 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,560 foundation that owns all the stores and all the for profit 170 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,160 businesses. Everything is reverted to the 171 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,880 non profit, OK. So we have a Blue alliance 172 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,760 holding company, which is a non profit entity that owns the 173 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,040 social enterprises for the for profit entities. 174 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,800 And all these dividends or all these profits created by these 175 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,080 companies will revert. It's important to mention that 176 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,400 the social enterprise are also creating jobs and also reducing 177 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,120 impacts or even positive impacts on the coral reefs, OK. 178 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,120 That's fantastic. So let's dive into that then. 179 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,520 So how do you go about finding the businesses? 180 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,680 I mean, I don't know if you can use a live example picking 181 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:43,560 either the Philippines, Indonesia or Tanzania. 182 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,240 So how do you find those businesses? 183 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,000 How do you help them get off the ground? 184 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,600 What kind of businesses are they? 185 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Basically we have three sectors where we are looking at it's 186 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,280 community based aquaculture. The second sector is sustainable 187 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,600 seafood and the first sector is eco tourism. 188 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,120 OK, So we conduct A feasibility study and usually can last six 189 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,160 months to two years, depends on the factor. 190 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,720 We do some pilot also, for example for aquaculture, are we 191 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,280 doing some pilot on cucumber or member of probably the 192 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Philippines and and and so on. So once we did this feasibility 193 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,640 and this pilot, we say, OK, this is a bankable project. 194 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,880 It can generate enough dividends to interest as in terms of flows 195 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,800 of capital to the MPA. It can also create enough jobs. 196 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,280 So all these businesses are designed with the communities 197 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,280 for the communities and they are together. 198 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,560 OK. So, so it's important to mention 199 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,680 this because we're not selling shoes and making profits and 200 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,480 reverting to the MPs. We are also creating a business 201 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,440 that makes sense with a see cucumber. 202 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,480 For example, if you take 1, the aquaculture of see cucumber has 203 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,560 two components. It has a component of a archery. 204 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,920 So we're removing all the pressure from the wild stocks. 205 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,480 We are creating our own archery. So the baby see cucumber will be 206 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:02,520 produced in our facility, but the grow out is done in the 207 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,600 villages, OK. So as you have a grow out done 208 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,400 in in 100 of hectares in front of the villages and this is done 209 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,440 by local farmers, this is done by local people and women in 210 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,520 this areas. So that's the kind of community 211 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,520 centred for business that we are developing. 212 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,080 Yeah, well, I have so many questions, including I, I don't 213 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,160 think I actually knew anything about sea cucumbers before. 214 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,600 And that they have a a hatchery, you said? 215 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:31,760 We have a hatchery, yeah. Wow. 216 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,480 OK. That's one for me to look up 217 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,040 afterwards. So you work with communities to 218 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,480 sort of understand what's a viable business model that fits 219 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,160 into the three categories you mentioned and then you fund them 220 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,240 to get going. How does that work? 221 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,360 So no, but the reef versus in businesses even if it is 222 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,320 community centred is a business, OK. 223 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,600 So it, it has to be structured as a business. 224 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,080 So a business as a business plan, as a financial plan, as 225 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,120 the marketing plan and innovations, some differences. 226 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,800 We are social enterprise. So we are impact first. 227 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,320 So we look for including communities, we look for 228 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,720 reducing our impacts on the field or even have a positive 229 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,040 impact. So from the very start, we are 230 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,080 designing for this positive impact on the people and on the 231 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,480 other. So beyond sea cucumbers, are 232 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,840 there other examples that you could share with us of the types 233 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,480 of businesses that you're developing, I suppose, OK. 234 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,000 So just to follow up on sea cucumber on the aquaculture 235 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,920 side, so the company is called Aqua Hub. 236 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,120 This Aqua Hub is in each other countries, so in Tanzania, 237 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,000 Philippines and Indonesia. So Aqua Hub is mostly in sea 238 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,000 cucumber. We have one Aqua Hub Minecraft 239 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,360 crab also in Philippines, just something that we are developing 240 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,240 in other businesses. In terms of seafood, the company 241 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,520 is called Samaki Blue, OK, So far it is only in Tanzania. 242 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,200 So what they are doing is that they are working with fishers. 243 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,360 So cultural fishers, they're telling them or we're telling 244 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,760 them to go fish some pelagic fish on a hand line and 1 by 1 245 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,520 and very sustainable. We got this fish, so high value 246 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,040 fish and tuna, wahoo, this kind of fish and we send it after to 247 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,240 high end resource or to we export it to to restaurants or 248 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,200 restaurants or platinum. The thing we do with the fishers 249 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,960 is that we pay them double price or what they would get normally. 250 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,480 OK, so, so there's some kind of of a partnership. 251 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,560 I'm telling you, we are we are impact first. 252 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,200 So really most of the profits go back to the community and part 253 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,880 of a profit go back to the MPA. So that's the kind of thing we 254 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,680 do. We want to scale up. 255 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,000 Today we are 50 fishers. We're going to scale up to 203 256 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,880 hundred 400 fishers in the area where where we are. 257 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,200 That's for the agriculture, the seafood, for the ecotourism. 258 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,040 So we have a liver boat company in, in Indonesia. 259 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,000 But on the one boat so far it's a 5 cabinets. 260 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,120 But we can grow to more, more vessels as as soon as the 261 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:11,480 business model is confirmed, We have a call with Safari in 262 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,880 Philippines, Tanzania and we own also the underwater room in 263 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,520 Tanzania. But you have to look on the on 264 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,240 the web page. It's a floating structure. 265 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,800 It has a so much part when you can sleep wow under the water 266 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,240 and you can be and you are surrounded by coral reef and 267 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,440 fish. Meanwhile, you're not sleeping 268 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,360 because you don't sleep really, but does. 269 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,720 Anyone sleep in there? Yeah. 270 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,240 So that's the kind of facility we have also for the ecotourism 271 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,520 side. Wow, okay, so how do you finance 272 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,440 the social enterprises? So this social enterprises are 273 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,560 financed we say mostly with a loan, OK. 274 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,880 We have an impact loan facility which is the we receive initial 275 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,160 commitments from UBS and BEP Parga assuming several millions 276 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,840 of dollars. We are looking for more because 277 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,760 this social enterprise are expensive, OK, you need to 278 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,760 invest and you need to cover the working capital for for the 279 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,120 first years, but they can pay back, OK, they're all bankable 280 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,680 because through a lot of due diligence and two years of due 281 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,520 diligence with PNP, but they can pay back a lender, OK. 282 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,000 So a passion lender and not a greedy lender neither. 283 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,280 So if it is a reasonable lender and it's very long term, so 284 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,080 we're talking about 10 years, 10, this kind of money we are 285 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,800 looking for. And that's like single digit 286 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,120 returns presumably, yes, yeah. And it's performance oriented, 287 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,000 so the more positive impact we have on the reef and the people, 288 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,120 the less coupon we pay. Oh. 289 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,560 OK. Oh, that's really neat, right. 290 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,480 And at the moment, you said just BNP Power Bar and UBS Optimus 291 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,320 Foundation are there. OK. 292 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,080 You could really see how that could scale up if you had some 293 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,640 further patient investment. Yeah. 294 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,080 We are looking for more. We are looking for new, new or 295 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,520 free more ones. Yeah. 296 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,400 So you mentioned there about the environmental impact, social 297 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,000 impacts and you know, in the case of the social enterprises 298 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,319 that their return on the the loan is lowered. 299 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,040 How are you measuring that? And it'd be great. 300 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,000 I mean, I know it's it's early days, isn't it? 301 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,839 But if there's any examples that you've had already of that 302 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,200 social environmental impact that you've seen, we'd love to hear 303 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,920 them. So we have our battery of KPI, 304 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,880 OK, we have 6 KPIs, but we have narrowed down because there were 305 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,120 a lot of them. We have more than 25, but we 306 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:38,080 narrowed down to six KPIs on nature deport and climate, OK. 307 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:44,120 So on nature, we are measuring the fish biomass to know if we 308 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:47,280 are regenerating any fish biomass on the on the coastal 309 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,320 areas. This is something which is done 310 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,680 by underwater surveys and and so on. 311 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,720 So I will spare you the the technical details, but there's a 312 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,400 real target for each year, for example, for for the 10 years, 313 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,760 but the impact loan facility is on, there's a target for each 314 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,640 year. But we have to define in terms 315 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,520 of recovery, you usually assume that the first five years not a 316 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,880 lot of fingers are going to happen on the on the water just 317 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,200 to be on the safe side. OK. 318 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,120 But strictly speaking, I think Indonesia for example, where you 319 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,040 have a lot of illegal and destructive fishing, as soon as 320 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,520 we stop it, there will be a recovery of the fish bymass, but 321 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,280 we keep it low profile for the for the investors. 322 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,600 The second one is really how many call with are we 323 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,760 protecting. So basically it's an indicator 324 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,440 of effectiveness of the management of the MPA. 325 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,560 The third one is fish productivity. 326 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,600 So we have developed what we call CPUE. 327 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,600 So cash per units of effort where it is possible to measure 328 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,600 how much fish will catch a Fisher in a one hour, OK. 329 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,440 And we do it on a multiple occasion, multiple situation. 330 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,960 And we're going to measure this all over the years, OK. 331 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,720 And we're going to measure if we leave the MPH is improving the 332 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,920 fish productivity, not only improving fish by underwater, 333 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,200 but it's also improving the fish crunch. 334 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,160 OK, that's the three. I would say our, our 2 1/2 335 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,560 ecology for indicators, we have social indicators. 336 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,560 So we measure the number of jobs, we measure the number of 337 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,360 people we are supporting. We measure also the number of 338 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,120 fishers benefiting from the KPII just told you where we increase 339 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:30,880 the fish productivity. And for climate, we are 340 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,400 measuring how much carbons, we are avoiding emission through 341 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,280 the conservation of mangroves that we have. 342 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,640 OK. And is that so how does that 343 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,440 relate if you're a social enterprise and you're being 344 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,480 measured against those KPIs? Obviously those KPIs are being 345 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,080 delivered, some of them through the foundation. 346 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,120 Yeah. No, we, we don't measure them at 347 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,800 the level of the of the social. OK. 348 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,240 But that's, that's something I didn't say the impact loan 349 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,080 facility is aggregated, OK. So all the money goes to all the 350 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,480 businesses. OK. 351 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,280 There's not money going directly to one business, OK. 352 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,080 It's aggregated. So when you invest into Blue 353 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,720 Alliance, you invest in the three Mpas, you invest in all 354 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,440 the impacts. So we put all together. 355 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,480 Got it. So as you say, a pulled 356 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,600 investment with really multiple outcomes delivered oceans huge 357 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,880 and they've had a lot of air time this week at the United 358 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,760 Nations Oceans Conference. And it feels like the question 359 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,840 of how we can unlock private investment into oyster 360 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,440 restoration is finally getting some attention. 361 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,160 And maybe we'll come back to that point in a in a minute. 362 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:42,920 But can you tell us sort of how replicable is the model that 363 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,320 we've created? Presumably there are many other 364 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,240 countries in which this could be applicable. 365 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,440 Given you said we have 10s of thousands of Mpas around the 366 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,120 world and and most are just paper parks, it would seem a 367 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,760 good idea if we could replicate this model elsewhere. 368 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,040 What's that main challenge you're seeing as you're thinking 369 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,720 about scaling and replication? I mean, the main challenge is 370 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,840 government. We know how it impacts 371 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,560 investors, we know how it grantors. 372 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,880 There's a lot of challenge also, but it's not the same level. 373 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,400 It's complex. It's very random with 374 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,320 governments to know where where we're going. 375 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,440 So our starting point is the PPP. 376 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,240 It's a public and partnership. We need this delegation of 377 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280 management for the MPs from the government, OK. 378 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,480 This is our main challenge. That's why we're not going into 379 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,960 too much countries, OK. We have three countries today. 380 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,600 We are very happy. We know that Indonesia and 381 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,240 Philippines, we can grow a lot. Don't forget that how many 382 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,920 focuses are coral reefs and people. 383 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,880 So Philippines and Indonesia have more than 45% of the 384 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,560 world's coral reef, OK? So that's a lot. 385 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,920 That's a lot, a lot. And they have a lot of paper 386 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,360 packs also. So we can grow from there, OK? 387 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,880 So it makes sense to grow from inside this country. 388 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,920 And this is what we're doing in Indonesia. 389 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,960 We started to three, two years ago in 800,000 hectares, which 390 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,400 was a large MPA, but we're already you're looking at 391 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,560 1,000,000 hectare in another province, OK, In Philippines we 392 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,040 are also growing to more MPs and more areas. 393 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,800 So I would just say it's a challenge when you breakthrough, 394 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,680 I think to, to go for the first, the first MPA in a new country 395 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,000 because you have to breakthrough delegation of management. 396 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,080 What, what happened with the authorities and then there's a 397 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,040 lot of legal framework you have to work with. 398 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,680 But once you did it, it's easier. 399 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,760 Yeah, I can imagine it's, I mean, that's a huge relationship 400 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,720 to build, isn't it, If you're going to be going in with 401 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,760 government, with your own vessels, policing some of those 402 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:41,160 waters, which I imagine it's not the easiest thing to do so. 403 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720 Yeah, you said it, you said it. And enforcement is only one 404 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,800 aspect, but they usually stop in many things. 405 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,240 But that review or like the user fees where I go, the user fees 406 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,760 if there's an insurance fees, I don't care about it because I 407 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,600 have my own business model. So but they can spend 8 months 408 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,280 discussing about this and after suddenly the most 9 they change 409 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,400 minister. So you have to redo everything. 410 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,880 So that's a bit frustrating. Yeah, I know, I bet governments 411 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,200 can move very fast when they want, but also very. 412 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,120 One of the challenge here we have and, and where we are 413 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,840 reducing the challenge is because we learnt our lesson. 414 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,840 We thought we were going only for the NPA management, but now 415 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,360 we go for NPA management. Link to a blue economy 416 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:28,040 investment. And really this is different for 417 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,640 government because you're not only talking about managing an 418 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,560 NPA and blah, blah, blah and biodiversity because they care, 419 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,480 but they don't really care. But blue economy means a lot of 420 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,080 jobs and a lot of investment and private money. 421 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,480 So it's a bit different. So this is a kind of approach 422 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,200 that we are dealing with. And I think that's the key, 423 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,320 isn't it? I think the models that we see 424 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,840 that are gaining traction have such a kind of regional economic 425 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,440 resilience angle to them that they're just much more likely to 426 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,320 be supported by governments, maybe with some public sector 427 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,480 funding thrown in. But also they've got that really 428 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,400 strong business case because businesses are thinking about 429 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,120 their own business resilience. It all ties in. 430 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,400 And so the word nature is just a bit of a, we don't even have to 431 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,120 mention it in meetings, but we all know that at the end. 432 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,720 Well, some of us are there to know that at the end it's being 433 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,880 delivered for. But perhaps the impetus is more 434 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,160 about the economic resilience and the jobs, as you say, for 435 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,600 governments. Yeah. 436 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,440 I mean governments are about jobs. 437 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,760 They need to be, they need to be clear and re elected business is 438 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,320 about money and we are about impact. 439 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:31,840 So we're trying to put all together that's. 440 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,800 Great. So just wrapping up, I've got a 441 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,280 couple of questions I'd love to ask you. 442 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,280 Nicholas. While this model is focused on 443 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,840 marine, presumably this is a model we can use for protected 444 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,880 landscapes as well on, you know, terrestrial landscapes. 445 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,000 Harvey Locke, who have the pleasure of working with 446 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,680 alongside Juniper Phi is looking at this sort of wicked problem. 447 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,640 He calls it right now of how can we fund and finance or have 448 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,520 revenue models that support protected areas, areas that are 449 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,200 already intact and marine. Obviously there is clear uplift 450 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,960 being developed, sorry, being delivered by the work that 451 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,880 you're doing. But are there similar models 452 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,960 you're seeing that work on the land? 453 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:12,480 I think so. I think so. 454 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,800 I think. I would think that the 455 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,400 terrestrial is even easier because you can own the land or 456 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,600 you can develop some, some businesses with some kind of a 457 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,600 concession, you know, these things you don't have on the 458 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,880 side. So I'm not expert in land, but I 459 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,040 would say that the model is replicable and it's being 460 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,720 replicated. I mean, if you look at the NGOs 461 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,120 like Peace Park Foundation and African Parks and all of this, 462 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:34,960 they have delegation of management. 463 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,960 They have a business model behind and they mixed it with 464 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,280 revenues from these businesses, you know, so, so it's not 465 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,760 something totally new in the in the green, in the blue, it's 466 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,160 quite new. But we're confident that we can 467 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,600 grow. I mean, today we have 2,000,000 468 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,960 hectares. We want to grow to 9 million 469 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280 hectares by 2013. So it's five years. 470 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,560 We are confident that we can manage this and we can do it. 471 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,120 And we want to grow to 70 million hectares with partners, 472 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,640 not alone with strategic partners in very strategic 473 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,440 countries and to be able to save 25% of the world's coverage. 474 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,360 OK, so that's that's the end. Gosh, 70 million hectares, that 475 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,680 would be incredible. So final, final question is 476 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,400 we're focusing on oceans this last two weeks. 477 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,360 Are you feeling positive about where we are in terms of 478 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,200 unlocking investment into our oceans? 479 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,920 Yeah, Yeah. No, no, Yeah, yeah. 480 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,720 I mean, there's definitively the last 2-3 years, there's more 481 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,200 focus on the ocean. Does that mean more money? 482 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,480 I don't know, because there's a lack of investable project. 483 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,520 OK. But I mean money. 484 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,160 They can give away money. Yeah, that's fine. 485 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:48,000 They can find maybe some depth swap, that's fine, but makeable 486 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,000 project where they can invest is not so common. 487 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,200 So we hope there will be more Blue Alliance in the future. 488 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,640 This is what we are aiming at and developing new businesses 489 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,080 in. And this episode is going out 490 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,320 the very end of UNOC, the UN Oceans conference, as you know. 491 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,360 What are you hoping will come out of the week in these? 492 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,560 I think the PPP applause, the public and product partnership 493 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:15,320 is a good solution, not for all 20,000 NPS or or 18,000 NPS in 494 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,600 the world, but for a big part of it, OK, So I don't understand 495 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,480 why we are doing this so much in the green but so little in the 496 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,160 blue, OK, We're doing a lot of delegation and management in the 497 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,680 green. That's very, very, very little 498 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,000 in the blue, OK. The NGOs are not very keen also 499 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,920 managing NPS because they know they have to get married for 500 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,440 many years and they don't want to except in few cases. 501 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,480 But definitively, this is part of the solutions because if we 502 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,200 rely on government, but then you're going to make it OK. 503 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,880 If you rely on your public sector, it's not going to work. 504 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,160 Never. Because a private sector would 505 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,400 take care only of his business and his bottom line a little bit 506 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,480 more, but not too much. So we need to find this missing 507 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,520 middle. And this missing middle is with 508 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,920 a public and private partnership. 509 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,520 So we need a delegation of management, but it has to be 510 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,280 done with a non profit entity with a business model. 511 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,760 Yeah. Well, thank you so much, 512 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,560 Nicholas again for coming on. And yeah, good luck with all the 513 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,040 great work you're doing and look forward to hearing more about 514 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,520 it. All right, take care. 515 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:24,520 Bye bye. Well, thank you very much for 516 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,640 listening today. That is it from us. 517 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,520 If you want to find out more about Blue Alliance and their 518 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,320 work, their website is Blue Alliance dot Earth. 519 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,920 And if you want to find out more about revenues of nature, as I 520 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,240 mentioned it is a bit of a mouthful of a URL. 521 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,800 So my advice is just to Google revenues for nature and GFI and 522 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,640 you will end up getting to the site. 523 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,880 And we do have several new guidebooks out actually, one 524 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,040 that details the living Amazon mechanism, super interesting 525 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,200 model that UNFFI have been leading on, another that looks 526 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,920 at the Great Bear Rainforest project, finance for Permanence 527 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,960 PFP and it's work with First Nations there. 528 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,920 And there's also an expanded water model guidebook and they 529 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,360 are all available or assume will be in multiple languages. 530 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,720 But next week, Mike's Rust at the Story Capital joins us to 531 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,320 talk about the Rimba Collective that's operating in Southeast 532 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,840 Asia and working with businesses sourcing palm oil from that 533 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,320 region. And then, crikey, it's London 534 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Climate Action Week. But until next time, I hope you 535 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,000 all have a great week.