Hang on, cut. Wait, why are you laughing?
I'm reacting. Oh, OK, OK, OK, OK.
Don't react till I'm finished. Great.
I got my up in hot flash. OK.
Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is Paul James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen.
I'm your host of Drinks at the Bar.
Today I am joined by my regular guest host.
Yes, you have seen her in the motion picture adaptation of The
Phantom of the Opera. It is Damien Lee Sturk.
Hi everybody, I'm Damien Lee Sterk, director of the Dancer's
Studio London, classical ballet teacher, actor with the role
ballet and featured artist in Joel Schumacher's blockbuster
Phantom of the Opera. Rent it out Blockbusters near
you. Absolutely.
Bonus Edition. Here we will discuss everything
from hearing backstage stories, touring shenanigans, to deeper
issues like body image training, the reality of being a freelance
dancer, and much more. With guest professionals, we are
here to share our knowledge, experience, and help you with
any questions or problems that you may have about dance and
navigating the dance world. Hello, Denise.
How are we? It's been a while.
Hello my darling. Yes, it has been a while
actually. I've been up and down the
country with Alan, keeping very busy considering it's a brief
pause between contracts. So yeah, how, how have you been?
Been good. I mean, it's been slow, easy
start to the, you know, season of all the teaching, all the
schools opening and everything. I'm actually going to a new
school. Well, not a new school.
I'm going to the musical theatre school in Denmark on Thursday.
I've never taught there before, so I'm going there to teach a
big dance workshop which I'm really looking forward to so.
Fantastic, That's brilliant. Something new, something
exciting. Exactly.
I'm really happy to, you know, get into that school.
And yes, you know, it's always nice to have another employer on
the list to offer you classes to teach.
Yeah, absolutely. Life of a freelance dancer.
All right sweetheart, well I
have got myself from my last trip to the UKI brought home an
Edinburgh gin with rhubarb and ginger.
Oh Twiki, that sounds lovely. So gin and tonic with a rhubarb
and ginger gin. Almost snapsies.
I have a gin and diatonic. I think it's important to say
it's a diatonic. Full full transparency and it's
a Marks and sparks classic. So cheers.
Cheers. Cheers to Saint Michael.
Down the down the hat. How's the Tangier rhubarb?
It's nice because the ginger really like counteracts the
sweetness of the rhubarb. Very nice.
And it really is medicinal for this time of year.
Ginger is so good for. You.
That's the only reason I'm having it this week.
We are talking everything. Auditions and castings, We all
hate them. Well, I say that, but I've
actually met some people who say I actually really like
auditions, and I'm sorry, but I call bullshit.
Yeah, I don't believe these people for a second that say
that they they like auditions, but maybe they do.
Maybe they're just trying to do some sort of reverse psychology
on themselves or trying to take away the auditions power or
something. I don't know.
Yeah, you'd have to be quiet into Salem masochism to enjoy
going into the room and being told you're not good enough on
the regular. Yeah, but have you ever thought
that maybe those people who like auditions are the ones that have
been successful in every role they've gone for?
You know, maybe they've never experienced rejection, they've
never heard a no. So for them, an audition is a
positive experience. I actually have never thought
about like that. So good for them that they never
got any rejection. But let's jump into this
episode. So before you go for an audition
or a casting, before you even apply to that auditional casting
online, you need a CV. As we've mentioned many times on
this podcast, what we are trying to do here is trying to teach
you some things that you don't learn in the classroom because
your dance teachers only have a certain amount of hours with
you. And they are the majority of the
time teaching you how to do your tondos and how to do your flick
flax and all of that kind of stuff.
So we're here to to teach you the other stuff.
So ACV I would say is very, very easy.
A black and white headshot in the top left corner and you've
got your name in the top and some details, your height,
weight, nationality and then list your education and then
jobs. Yeah, and I think it's important
to keep updating it as well. In fact, I mean, I've just
recently been asked to submit a biography for an upcoming
production. So I had to then kind of
reevaluate, rethink what do I want to highlight?
I only had a certain amount of words I was able to use.
So, you know, you do find that throughout your entire career,
you're constantly kind of rejigging and highlighting and,
and editing, you know, 11's journey.
But I appreciate in the beginning you know your your CV
can be quite sparse. Well, yes, sparse, but also it's
an integral, integral part of of job searching.
You need to have the CV and like you're saying about your biog,
you need to keep it updated. Your CV you need to keep, it's
going to be with you constantly. You're constantly having to
update. Exactly keep those details
updated and current. You know, if you've changed your
telephone number, if you've moved house, everything up to
date and and easily accessible on your on your laptop or
wherever you're editing your, you know, your documents, you
know, so you can go back in quickly.
You know, I've had to do it. And like on the run, you know,
I'm leaving the gym. I'm about to go to Marks and
Spencer and somebody's asked, oh, could you just pop your CV
to this e-mail address? Because we're looking for such
and such and such and, you know, so you're kind of updating it in
real time. So having those skills to be
able to edit quickly also is is is really important.
And I will say that as you go along your career, get rid of
stuff on your CV because when you were young and you've just
graduated, like you've just mentioned, your CV is going to
be sparse. It's going to be quite empty
because you haven't done anything yet.
And that's understandable. So your CV will probably be your
performances that you did with English National Ballet when you
were 16 and you were joining the company as a student or whatever
it is. But as you go further in your
career and you get more jobs, take the crap off.
Don't leave everything on there forever.
It's a waste of time. Nobody wants to.
You don't need it. Take it off.
Yeah. In the same breath, I will also
say I don't keep my CVI, do keep it in chronological order.
But I don't write dates on there.
I just, I just don't feel like we need to write.
I was at Tivoli from 2008 until 2016.
Then it was this, from this to this, because as a freelancer
you will have jobs in between things all the time.
And when I was in Tivoli, for example, for 10 years, all my
musicals and other jobs I did were in between that time.
So then it looks like a messy CV.
If I'm here from 2006 to 2015, but also in 12 and 14, I did
this like you don't need dates, we don't need that.
No, I agree. And, and, and thinking about it
now, you know, that was always something that I struggled with
how to present it in a manner that was easily, can be easily
read by the person asking for the CV because there's freelance
dancers. I think we followed the
structure of a corporate CVI believe and that was kind of
what was handed down. Yes.
And it just doesn't make sense if you're a freelance dancer
because the dates are just all over the place.
And I think if anybody is concerned, you know, So what
were you doing between, you know, 2013 and 2015?
If they can't make it out from the CV, you know, you just
explain when I was doing 15 different jobs during that time.
That's why it's kind of, you know, written in such a way.
But yeah, I would agree. I don't think we need dates
anymore. I mean, I would argue there are,
there's a lot of information that we we should not
necessarily have to put on ACV these days.
But yeah, anyway, that that's a whole other episode.
But, you know, personal details and and you know, where we are
with, you know, gender identity and whatnot.
But yeah, let's scrap the dates. Let's scrap the dates.
I also I changed my CV depending on what I'm auditioning for now.
The majority of time nowadays I am auditioning for musicals.
I'm not really going down ballet route anymore, but go back a
couple of years, I was auditioning for contemporary
jobs, ballet jobs and musical jobs all at the same time.
I would change my CV for each audition, so I would put towards
the top of my CV by more contemporary work that I've
done. Yeah, because the person reading
your CV is going to look at your job straight away.
And if I've got how my CV looks right now, Kinky Boots, the
producers, Anastasia, it's just like listing musicals before
even touches, you know, Matthew Bourne and D development and,
you know, contemporary work that I've done.
So I do move things around or take things off to suit the job
to make it appropriate for the job that I'm going for.
Definitely. I think that's a clever way to
present yourself because you, you want, you know, the aim is
to stand out and to grab their attention.
And I think, you know, if I was going for a teaching position, I
wouldn't necessarily start with, you know, my early performing
career. You know, I would, I would
present something that shows I'm currently teaching my, my
teaching history, etcetera, etcetera.
So I think that's great tip. Eliminate and showcase yourself
the best way. Exactly because I know that when
I've gone to, you know, you're trying to give yourself the best
footing. And if your CV arrives on their
table and they're looking for a professional ballet dancer and
they get ACV that lists Hairspray, Lion King, Sound of
Music, all of this kind of stuff, and they're like, but I'm
looking for a ballet dancer. Why is this musical theatre a
performer written to me? They don't know you're
versatile. They don't know you've done
other stuff. You need to put the ballet stuff
at the top of the CV so they can see straight away when they're
going through their hundreds of CVS.
Oh, that guy, he's this tall. He looks like this and he's done
this. Yeah.
Agreed. I will also say that your little
corner headshot on your CV, if you have one, needs to be
updated and needs to look like you.
I feel attacked and I believe that Catherine Zeta Jones and I
do look alike and therefore I'm happy to use her headshot
whenever I fancy. I will say that from recently
with James sitting in the audition on the audition panel
and going through these CVS and having everything.
I'm looking at your CV and there's the picture in the top
left corner. Let's just say that I'm using
and looking up at you and then you've left the room and then
we're going through these things.
I need that picture to look like the person I just saw on the
audition because fine, if you've also sent some dance shots with
your CV, they're not going to be printed out and given to me at
the audition. I've literally got your CV with
the photograph of you and that's it.
So I need what is in front of me to look like the person who is
dancing in front of me in the studio.
So I remember you. I agree, I'm nodding.
It's just that we're notorious for, you know, we're an art form
that is obsessed more than ever with youth.
It always has been. So I, I, I do understand why
people you continue. Also, head shots can be quite
expensive. So I'm not surprised, you know,
most people don't have the the luxury to update often.
But I think now with, with you know, and the iPhone and these
fancy cameras, you know, we, there's no excuse.
In fact, in fact my last few headshots I've taken myself.
I was going to say exactly the same thing when you were talking
about the obsessed with youth and people wanted to keep that
their young photo on their CV. The jig is up.
You're coming to the audition. I'm going to see how old you are
when you turn up. Yeah.
Don't get a new headshot and to to literally back up what you're
saying as well. Nowadays your headshot for your
CV is literally going to be the size of a postage stamp on your
CV. It does not need to be a Mario
Testino photo shoot or whatever, an Annie Leibovitz photo shoot.
It does not have to be the most amazing quality thing.
Your iPhone will take a good enough photograph.
If you are in against a white wall or a black wall with a nice
little ring light. Take a photograph of yourself.
Play with the contrast ever so slightly.
Make it black and white. Put it on your CV.
That is a good enough headshot for ACV.
Yeah, yeah. If you ask for a headshot for
the programme of the show that you're going to be in, no, maybe
that's not the best idea. But we're not talking about
that. We're talking about ACV headshot
picture that looks like you. Exactly.
And I think, you know, when you are turning up to an audition,
like you say, you know, we need you to look like you.
There might be 200 people in that room.
And we're certainly not going to remember names, you know, but
faces. But if if.
Your number has fallen off. Yeah, your number's fallen off.
You've you're sweating through your number.
It's on the floor. It's been dragged all over the
floor. You know, you're flushed in the
face and we're looking at a picture that was 15 years old
and we can't find you in the corridor because.
The jig is up the jig. I'm laughing because I've so
done that so many times, particularly when we were doing
reoccurring tours each year. It's like year 7 but like year
one photo. I mean, I had a headshot photo
taken maybe two years ago, 1 1/2 years, two years ago or
something, and I was sending off my CV quite recently and I sent
her off and I was like, I have a shaved head.
I don't look like that person anymore, even though the photo
is not that old. Yeah, but I now have no hair.
The chick is. Off the chick is.
Off Update your CV, update your photo.
Yeah, don't be coy. You have to turn up, you have to
be in the room. So you know, there's only so
much so far you can push the. Photoshop.
The Photoshop and trust me, I've tried all the tricks.
Before we go on to the physical turning up to an audition, let's
just quickly throw in there. Times are different nowadays.
We are not really going to pineapple and looking at a
physical notice board and finding an audition or casting
up there and writing to the phone number or whatever was on
the list. Also gone are the days where
you're getting your Dance Europe magazine in the post and
checking out the auditions there.
Yeah, I missed those days. I.
Mean those days it was a little bit easier, I want to say the
word because there was not many other places you had to look.
There was the Dance Europe magazine that came that listed
all the auditions for the companies for that month.
Whereas now you have to follow so many Facebook groups and
Instagram groups and follow companies own websites and all
this kind of stuff. But I will say do it.
You have to use your social media to follow people to find
out where the work is. Find these global audition
Facebook groups. Follow the companies that you
want to audition for. Follow Dance Europe if it still
exists. You know, follow pages because
you need to find out where these auditions are because dance
companies especially are not going to be going through
agencies to find their people. That's a very commercial route.
That's for their short term TV commercial or film or whatever
job, A ballet company, English National Ballet.
If they're looking for four soloist guys, they're not going
to go to an agency. They're going to post it online
or prospective places for people to apply.
Yeah, it, it, it's, it's a great idea to remain connected with
your community And because half the time, you know, it can be a
friend saying, oh, did you hear there's an audition for such and
such and next Sunday or that's all it can take.
So I think, you know, you need to keep your ears pricked and,
and, and be receptive to what's going on around you.
You know, the job will not fall in.
It's very rare for a job, certainly in the beginning, it's
very rare for a job to fall in your lap.
You know, as you get older, the more experience you have, you
tend to be offered work through word of mouth because of your
experience, definitely. But certainly when you're young
and you're starting out, you need to kind of be fully aware.
But also, even when you're older and you've got the experience
and you're more likely to get offered a job, it's still that
sentiment of out of sight, out of mind though.
So if you are away from the industry, not going to class or
not meeting up with friends who are in shows or whatever, that
job, that may be handed to you on a plate because they like you
and your experience. But if you're not in their
mind's eye, they wouldn't think of you.
There's something about being present.
Oh yeah, if you're if you're sat at home on a chaise long
drinking Marks and Spencer's gin and tonics and you haven't been
to class for six months, yeah, they're not going to you're not
going to get that e-mail saying hi.
We'd love for you. We'd love to see you for such
we'd. Love you to be the zebra in
Birmingham Royal Palace. Still live at the Penguin Cafe.
Would you be a good Zeb? I think you'd be a good zebra,
would you not? I think I would.
Yeah, I think I would. I'd be more the dormouse I
think. I think you'd be a perfect
dormouse, although maybe we'd be better.
Penguins. Lady Penguins.
Be present. Hold your ear to the ground.
There are so many outlets nowadays for auditions and
castings to be presented and you need to kind of follow lots
because if I was running a company, I wouldn't know which
one to choose. I don't know which one that
everyone is looking at. So you have to follow and look
at multiple places to find that audition.
Yeah, be switched on for sure. Regarding something we just
spoke about, about checking websites and checking Instagram
groups and Facebook groups and such, there is that one thing to
remember that your massive state funded dance companies have to
have an audition every year whether there is a job or not.
So just have that in mind. That is how the industry work
in, in Germany, in Spain, in Denmark, in Holland, in, in lots
of countries, these big contemporary or ballet
companies, they will have to legally have an audition to be
actively looking for dancers every single year, whether they
have a contract or not available.
So sadly, sometimes there were 300 people coming to a big open
audition for Insert European company here and there's not a
single job available. I'm sure literally in the last
48 hours, I, I saw a clip on Instagram and it's one of the
founders of bar trash. And I'm sure he was saying or
fighting for companies to only call for auditions if they
actually have positions available.
It was in the back. It was literally in my
peripheral, like you know how you're skimming Instagram and it
just, it sparked my intrigue. But because of also, you know,
by being called into an audition, it's whether there's a
position or not, it's an opportunity for the director and
the artistic team to see you, which is a great thing.
You know, when people ask me for advice, well, what would such
and such think? You know, I'd love to work for
this company. I'd love to work for that
company. And my advice is try and go in
for company class. Let them see you because they
need to get to know you. And on the other side of that,
you must turn up to an audition if you're looking for a job and
you want to work for that company, whether the 300 people
are in the room and they need two people.
But I I need to go back and revisit that clip that I saw
because if you're paying. To, to get to an audition, like
if you're travelling from Edinburgh down to London to
audition for a company based in London and you're having to pay
for accommodation and overnight accommodation, you know, train
fare and there is no job. I think transparency is key.
Then at least if they say we're holding an audition, we're
looking for dancers potentially for next season, We currently
don't have any positions. Then at least you can make the
decision. You know what, I'm going to risk
it, but I think they have to be they have to be transparent so
that, you know, the person paying the money understands
one, there's no job actually, and this is a risk, financial
risk, but the benefit of that is being in the room with the
people that are making those decisions eventually.
So I. Mean yes, what you said, travel
and accommodation, but even if it's not travel, accommodation,
if you're unemployed and you are going to an audition, well if
you are going to audition, you are probably unemployed as in
dance unemployed. You might be working at Pizza
Express or whatever, but you're probably going to have to be
taking time off work to go to this audition.
So either way, whether it's financial from Edinburgh to
London or having to have accommodation or just taking a
normal day off or using your, it's wasting your time.
I know. I mean, the reason is because
they're receiving money from the government and they have to be
actively looking for the new talent.
I get it if there there was that disclaimer, like you said, this
season we are having a big open audition to look to see what is
out there. However, there's no contracts
available. It needs to be a conversation
between the company and the government that they or the the
funding provider that they are allowed to do that, to inform
the dancers to to inform the applicants that you are running
the risk of coming to an audition where there is no job.
It's not a single place that's doing this.
This is every state funded company.
And sadly, it's not even just the dancers, it's also the huge
director jobs. When they are looking for a new
artistic director, they advertise the job.
So you have got your, I don't know, amazing top people in the
dance world from all over the world applying for a job that
might not exist because either the director has said yes to
take on another four years of his contract, or they've already
given it to a principal dancer within the company that's going
to become that director. Whatever the reason, they still
have to apply, advertise the job.
So it's also that level jobs are also being advertised when there
is no position available. It's interesting, isn't it?
I mean, I've certainly done auditions and then they've
turned round and said actually we can no longer offer the
position because the person that was leaving has decided to stay.
And also certainly positions are filled internally for sure.
In fact, I would argue 9 times out of 10 they already know who
they want to replace said person.
Especially the higher up jobs. I would say your bi masters,
your rehearsal directors, your. Dana.
Dana or whatever, the majority of the time they already have
someone or they know who they want to ask or yeah, but it's
still, you know, I've applied for us teaching jobs and then my
friend is then also working there and then goes, oh, that
job's not available though. Like, so I just wasted my entire
day writing a new application because it's not just sending
ACV and a photo. No, a teaching job or a
directorial job or anything like that.
It's an application stating what you're going to do specifically
for this company or for this said dance school or whatever it
is. In that sense.
It's not just here's my CV and a headshot.
Hope you call me. In No.
You would have to. You have to write an entire
presentation, an application for those jobs.
It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work.
Back to auditions, so you have received your invitation from
hopefully you have oh, now I'm going to complain about that.
Companies out there listening, I hope you're listening.
Reply I know the dance world is big.
If I have sent you an e-mail and I've sent you an application,
reply to me and say you are not invited or you are invited.
My e-mail just going unresponded to firstly is rude, but also did
you receive it? Did it go in your junk mail?
Do I have the wrong e-mail address?
Please just tell me that I'm not invited to the audition or or
that I am invited to the audition.
Don't just leave it empty because there's.
I've written to places before on multiple occasions when they've
had different auditions over the years and have never received a
reply. So I start thinking, does my
e-mail go into their junk? Because I've had people go into
my junk mail before. It does happen.
My work at the New Theatre in Copenhagen always goes into my
junk mail. So that feeling of I've applied
for jobs in this certain place and have never received a reply.
Are they reading my mails? If you are, write to me.
I would hope that the person in charge of receiving emails to
coordinate auditions should be checking their junk mail right
regardless. Well, you would hope.
So I think mainly it's born out of rudeness and time.
They don't have the time. I know it's no excuse every
e-mail should be responded to, but I think there are occasions
where perhaps they just or they forget or the people that are
running or the people that are replying to these emails aren't
necessarily trained to be replying to people.
You know, you know how things jobs get levied out exactly.
And I and I think you need a proper person with proper
computer skills that understand and the time to understand the
coordination it takes to get these people in.
If you've made an application, and I totally agree.
If you've applied in the past, I've certainly written.
I'd appreciate, you know, confirmation of receipt of this
e-mail, basically saying e-mail me back because I already know
what I'm going to wear. No, I think it's important.
Yeah, we have an entire episode, I'm sure in seasons 567 of
respect for the dancer. You know which.
I just think we're in this day and age now where we've started.
You know, we haven't just started.
We're already in it. We are already in the place,
which is great that we are looking after the dancer.
We're treating them more like people, which is great.
The people holding the audition have all the power.
However you want us, you want us to come to you so you can feel
your position. So actually we have the power
you want us to turn up to your audition.
So be polite to us and reply to us.
Respect, like we've said before on this podcast, like we can't
just go in that old fashioned way that respect is just there.
Respect is a two way St. You write to me and say thank
you for applying for your for our audition.
We sadly will not be wanting you or whatever or thank you for
your reply. Please join us on Wednesday at
7:00 at Pineapple blah, blah, blah.
Whatever it is, treat us like a human being.
Because you need me. Well, oh, if you don't want me
at your audition, you don't need me.
But you might need me. You know what I mean?
Like you, you're not God. You need us to turn up.
You're asking for us to apply. You have put an advert out there
saying please write to us. So the smallest thing you could
do would be thank you, I've received it.
I don't want to see you at the audition.
That's it. So you've arrived at your
audition. You are physically in the room.
You got your e-mail. Or had you or have you just
turned up regardless? Some things to think about and
be aware of at audition. Some things we've spoken about
before, some things we might not have spoken about before in this
podcast. Couple of things right now you
just said. Or have you not been invited?
Don't turn up if you're not invited.
Don't do it. I and also if you get cut,
leave. I've been in situations where
people have stayed and your CV is now not in front of me.
So I know you're not supposed to be here because all the people
that we've cut, they're in a pile over there and all the
people that are in the room should be in the room right now
are in front of me. So if you have stayed, I'm going
to call you out in it because I don't have your CV.
Your number doesn't correlate to the people who are supposed to
be in this room. Like we know who's supposed to
be here. Go away.
Thank you for your day. You didn't get the job.
It's shitty, I know. Move on.
Yeah. Bye, Jessica.
Jessica, you're done. Get out the room.
She's holding onto a chair. So some quick things to mention
about auditions. OK, so firstly, first
impressions matter. How you walk into the room, how
you present yourself, This is not a hangout.
This is not a free for all. This is a job interview.
It's a group job interview, fine, but it is a job interview.
We're here to get a job, so act professional.
Yeah, the energy should be high. It's not an opportunity to catch
up with your classmates or, you know, people you hang around
with at the dance studio. Polite, respectful.
Dance for little socks off. But it's not a casual
environment. You're there.
It's a competition environment.
You're gunning for a position. Yeah.
So you want to be the best you can be, not just in terms of
dance skills or singing skills or whatever performance skills,
but also the best representation of you.
Respectful, polite, amiable. Yeah, but still authentic.
You know, we're not we're not suggesting, you know, Stepford
wise, but at the same time you don't want to be a rebel.
Some some directors like a little bit of a rebel energy,
but I think it's a risk in that scenario.
Yeah, because we've mentioned it previously.
Actually, you don't know the personalities of the people
hiring. And if you know one of them, if
you know James, you might not know me, or you don't know the
director or the musical director or whoever it is.
You don't know the personalities of anyone on that table.
So what you do could actually rub someone the wrong way.
I totally agree and I must say that also applies to the people
that are behind the desk. I was going to say exactly the
same thing. I was going to say that we are
now in a place, the dance world is changing.
Thank God there is a new generation on the other side of
the table. So hopefully things are changing
for the best. However, we are not there yet
because I have said it before, I have been on the other side of
the table, but I'm probably one of the youngest people on the
other side of the table. So the old school people are
still there. There are still some people in
power, but I would say nowadays going to an audition, try and go
there with a mindset of the people on the other side of the
table have been in my shoes. So hopefully they are modern and
understand and empathetic. But also remember that like I
said before, they need to fill this position.
They want the people to come to the audition.
We want you to do your best, so we're not there wanting you to
fail. I want to hire the best dancer
in this room. You know what I mean?
I'm trying to take away some of the nerves.
You're never going to take away all the nerves.
I know. But it's more the thought of I
want you to succeed because when you succeed, I feel my position
and I've done my job for today. Yes, because for the person you
know going into the audition it can.
It is very intimidating when you have 5 or 6 people staring at
you, not smiling, riding things down, checking your CV, checking
your headshot, you know, looking you up and down.
I mean, you know, that's part and parcel of the audition
process. You know, we are very exposed as
as artists. But I think it is helpful to
know that it's a, it's a two way transaction, isn't it?
You need a job, they need to fill a job position.
So actually that may, if somebody had said that to me in
my early career, perhaps that would have been helpful rather
than just turning up into a room and feeling very, very exposed
and and judged. Yeah.
I will say as a sidebar note, as we're talking about being on the
other side of the table, all this kind of stuff when you are
a dancer and you audition for musicals and you have to go and
sing. A quick side note here, I know
you're nervous. I've been in that position
before. It's very nervous.
As you're as a dancer you feel really strong and really safe
and as a singer it's not your Forte.
Try and go in there with fake confidence and just sing.
You being really nervous and quiet and singing is not helping
you go in there. Sing because sometimes you get
the impression from dancers when they're either quiet or a bit
blase about the singing. It makes them seem like they
either don't want the job or they don't like musicals or
yeah, it gives off the wrong impression.
And you obviously want this job. That's why you're here.
So sometimes this walking in apologetic.
Oh, I don't really sing. Oh, I don't know.
Why are you here? Don't tell me that.
Sorry, Karen. No, I was just thinking I if the
person walking into the audition who has been asked to sing is
behaving in that way, I would argue they are not right for
that role. But that's exactly straight
away. The energy that I get from
sitting on the panel when you've come in and you're apologetic
that I have to listen to you sing.
So I've asked to listen to you sing.
I want to hear you sing because I want you to get the job and
you because we've made a cut. We've kept the best dancers or
kept the people that we're interested in.
And now you're coming for the second round.
That shows you that I want you. So you coming in and being like
apologetic for yourself that oh, I'm sorry, I'm shit or I'm sorry
I Can't Sing or it really gives off an energy that you don't
want to be here or you don't want the job.
So put on the fake energy and just go in, sing and leave.
You don't have to be fake and talkative and bravado or
anything like that. You just have to go and be like,
hi, sing your song, do it, put on that underneath, fake
confidence and get out the roof. Absolutely, absolutely.
It's like, why would you give there the panel any ammunition
to think, oh, this person isn't confident in in in this at all.
So they won't they're probably not even listening to you sing
actually, because they they will have swift, they will have
eliminated you mentally before you finished your, you know,
bars of whatever you've been asked to sing.
So I think, yeah, presentation is key.
And you're right. If if you're not, if you don't
have such a strong inclination for singing, even though you may
enjoy it, but you're still going for the role because it's
attractive. You see, you could also also be
in a situation where you're going for any job, particularly
in the beginning, you just go for any job because, you know, I
made a little note earlier that most companies, certainly when
we were starting out, you know, required two to three years
professional experience. But if you're a fresh graduate,
where the hell does that experience come from?
You need somebody to take a chance.
So that's why you do find yourself as a, as a new starter,
auditioning for everything until you get your groove and you,
you, you're auditioning and selection process becomes a
little bit more consistent with the style that you're hoping to,
you know, the genre of that you're hoping to work in.
But, but when it comes to the singing, I think my point is,
let me get to my point. My point is, Jessica, if you're
going for an audition and singing isn't your strong point,
I know I'm just reiterating what you've said, but at least sell
it. Sell yourself.
Yeah, if you're here, then do it.
And then leave. Leave it up to the panel to
decide whether they keep you or not.
End of story. Yeah, and the same applies for
dancing. 100 percent, 100% it does.
But what I would say is that lots of the time you've got to
understand that when you're coming in for the singing
audition for a musical, you don't know.
You never know what people are looking for, what they're
wanting. If you are a very strong dancer,
I probably already know and have guessed that you probably are
not that strong a singer. Yes, triple threats, blah, blah,
blah. We're all stronger at something.
We are. And when someone comes in who is
a phenomenal dancer, you know they're not going to be a
phenomenal singer. They could be a good singer,
don't get me wrong, but like, so when you come in, I might not
need you to be a great singer. So do what you do.
Don't apologize because you don't know what I'm looking for.
And in the same breath, I will also say when you have that
feeling of coming in and that you're embarrassed to sing or
you're kind of apologetic to be there, you're going to have to
sing every single night with a microphone in front of an
audience if you get this job. So if you don't want to sing,
why you're here? Exactly.
And I think if you're drawn to musical theatre where you're
probably going to be singing and dancing, then get those, get
those singing lessons. And it's the confidence, it
really is the confidence. Walk in that room and just sing
because it's, it's not like dancing it dancing is easier to
fake. We can all hear whether you are
trained or not, a bad singer, and we can all hear because it's
your breath. We can all hear when you are
nervous. Whereas a dancer you can cover a
lot of stuff up when you're nervous but voice it.
I can hear it. The Terror, the.
Terror. I can hear the terror in your
voice grabbing on to what you said about when you first
graduate and especially for us, and I think it is still the case
where lots of auditions say you need three years professional
experience to apply for this job.
I remember back in the day when I had first graduated, I wrote
for a dance magazine called Dance Expression.
I don't think it's around anymore, but I wrote about the
audition process and how I found it.
So I had graduated from one of the best schools in the country
and I could not go to 90% of the auditions that were advertised
in the stage or on londondance.com or in dance
Europe. There was probably 90% of the
auditions I couldn't go to. And it was because you had to be
as a man. You had to be at least 5 foot 9,
which I'm not. All the ballet companies I
could, all the big companies, I could never go to the auditions
you had to be. Then there were musicals that
you probably had to be 23 and even taller.
So there was a lot of auditions that I could never go to.
And it's hard. And it's, that's why jumping
onto what you said, you end up going to auditions that maybe
you wouldn't have gone to before.
Because like we we've discussed with casting, there's a hell of
a lot more that goes into making a decision than just does that
person have a nice good foot and do a double tour.
No, everybody has a nice good foot and everybody can do a
double tour. I need someone who is 5 foot 9
and up. So I can't even get in the door
to show them my left foot and my dodgy double top.
It's true, though. I mean, it's, it's, it can be
very, very difficult to get into the room.
You know, although saying that I once did when I was very, very
young, there was an open call. I think it might even been for
like a cruise ship or something completely the opposite of what
I'd been training for. But I was like, I was young.
It's an audition and I think they were lit.
It felt it was a dance attic and they were like, it felt like
thousands of people and when and then it got to a tap number and
I just thought this is a complete waste of my time.
So I just left. I was like, what's what's the
point? They can't see me.
There are far too many people here.
I don't really want to be here. So I think it even even though,
you know, we've we've been discussing, it probably makes
sense to audition for lots and lots and lots of different
things in the in the earlier portion of your career.
I think it's also clever and smart and a good use of your
time to understand where you want to be.
Do have a five year plan, you know, because if your five year
plan is to end up with a classical ballet company, then
don't waste your time, you know, auditioning for on your toes or
auditioning for, you know, something that's really so far
removed from what you want to do awareness.
I think we keep going back to awareness and that is key.
And some, some people mature at a quicker rate than others.
You know, I was a very, very naive young dancer and I just
felt that merit would be rewarded, whether it's in a
Class, A company, you know, a workshop, whatever.
How naive of you. Didn't last long you know, so I
think it is good advice to say you know awareness is key and
figure out where you want to be. No, I mean, I went to auditions
that I mean there were auditions that I wanted to go for like for
example, Chicago, Chicago in the West End when it was at the
Adelphi. So we're also going back in time
a bit here. You had to be 23 and 5 foot 10.
I think maybe 59510. I can't stretch.
I was 19 and 5 foot 6, but I changed my CV and I sent my
stuff off and I went to that audition I went through.
So it was back in the day when you used to also do it on the
stage. So I was on the Adelphi Chicago.
I mean, it's a cool experience. I was on the Adelphi stage with
the scenery behind me and you know, this is very chorus line.
They're sat in the auditorium and blah, blah, blah, blah.
We do a big dance thing and they teach.
It's probably all that jazz. I can't really remember, but I'm
sure it's all that jazz and they do a cup and I got kept.
I was shocked out of like I was like, what?
I'm so obviously 5 foot 6, like come on.
So we all had to go out to the foyer of the theatre and then
people come in one by one to sing.
That's scary, standing on the stage and singing instead of
just in a studio and singing to the oh, scary.
Anyway, so I come on stage and I go over to the pianist to give
my music and I hear this. Paul, before you start, we know
you're too short and you're too young, but we thought you did a
really good audition. We just wanted to be able to
have this moment to say to you personally.
It was really nice to see you. You have not got the job.
And did you have to sing? Did they still want you to?
No. No, no, no, no.
I didn't sing. No, no.
No. Can you imagine?
You're not. Going to have the job now, sing
Good morning. So yeah, literally I was.
I was called out straight away. But that's, but I I would
consider, I'm not sure how you felt immediately afterwards, but
you know in hindsight what a positive experience to be,
especially to be on the stage. I mean, I've had much worse
experience. You know, it's funny, I've I
also, I think I've mentioned this before, but I also, I was
invited to a private audition for Chicago and it was at
Pineapple at one of the studios at the very, very top.
But it was with Anne Reinkin and she was in the room delivering
the choreography. But it's one of those I should
have never have got. I'm so thrilled that I did to
have been in the room with her. But I am classically trained and
it's not a singing lesson in my life really.
So why? I thought because I was invited,
I felt obliged that I should go, thinking in my naivety.
Well, if they've asked me to go, it's because.
They've heard of me. They want to see me, which
they've heard of me. I was a body double for and
Catherine Zeta Jones an entrapment.
So to be in the room was phenomenal.
But obviously I got cut because that was not part of my journey.
But at the time I invested a lot of energy in it because they'd
invited me. But I wish I'd had just had a
little bit more of awareness to say to myself, this is not your
path. But now in hindsight, it was an
exciting moment. I didn't get all bells and
whistles and the stage like you did, but I at least got a
glimpse. And to be in the room with a
magnificent, you know, icon of of stages screen.
So it was well worth it. But I mean, going from that,
actually, if you are invited to audition and you're not going,
if you are sick, if you, if you are going to go in, then you
wake up on the morning and you can't go, whatever it is, please
call in, please call, please e-mail.
Please do what you can to contact that theatre, that
company, that production, whatever it is, your agent,
whatever it is, do your best to try and contact them because it
can be a black mark on your name if you just don't turn up.
We have printed out your CVI know it doesn't, it doesn't take
any effort, but like you know, we've printed out your CV.
We have created this audition with 20 people and one of those
people was supposed to be you. You haven't turned up and we
don't know that you haven't turned up.
Maybe you had a legitimate reason.
Please tell us like you would a job, you wouldn't just not turn
up to your job. But also, you know, maybe person
#21 could have been called in instead if you'd have you know,
obviously if you've if you've if you don't have much time, it's
literally, you know, an hour before and you're vomiting
everywhere. You know, whatever, like
whatever the. It's coming up with.
Whatever the reason, but if you know, or if you know you're not
going to turn up, then give somebody else the potential
opportunity to to to be invited to that private audition.
Yeah. But I mean, I think, you know,
when we're young, we don't really think about those things,
do we? But I think it's good to, again,
to have good etiquette and be aware of what you take into the
studio that's outside of those dance girls.
You know your personable skills and your your interaction with
the people that are making those decisions.
The standing at the side quietly waiting for your turn.
The ask a question. If you need to ask a question.
Don't ask a question just to get noticed.
The all of that kind of etiquette stuff that we know
from taking open class or you know, from your education.
Keep that there. Remember it?
Jessica. So I just wanted to spend the
last bit of this podcast talking a little bit openly about
failure. I know that I have had a / 20
years career in this industry and I'm very happy and it's been
through hard work also, right place, right time, you know, all
that kind of stuff that make a career.
However, that does not take away from the fact that I've had
loads of rejection and I've had loads of bad experiences.
Like I mentioned earlier, there is a company I've written to so
many years in a row for every single one of their productions,
I've applied to them to go for an audition and I've never been
invited to their auditions. I've never had a reply to my
e-mail. And that's from someone who has,
you know, over 8 musicals on their CV who has loads and loads
of experience. So I also am also still getting
rejection to this day. I think we have to normalize the
the rejection. And you need to realize that all
these people that you look up to, all the prima ballerinas,
all the leads and musicals, all the people who are in the chorus
of a musical, all of them have gone to auditions and got to
know. All of them have applied to
auditions and not been called into that audition.
I can put my hand in my heart and say I have written to every
single dance agency in Europe and I have never got a reply.
When I first graduated, I was on an agent in an agency called
Reanimators, which was a ballet heavy freelance dance agency.
I was kind of like a niche in the market because there wasn't
anyone really representing freelance ballet contemporary
dancers. I don't know when that company
closed, but they're not around anymore and I was with them for
a year. I worked with Matthew Bourne and
then didn't seem the point in keeping them because my
contracts were always like long contracts.
I wasn't needing them for short gigs because I was with Tiffany
for a long time, I was with Matt for long contracts.
I wasn't looking for these small gigs.
So I left that agency. Since then I have written to
every single dance agency in London, in Denmark, in European
based agencies that look after people from multiple countries.
Never once have I had a reply. Ever.
Why? I mean, why?
What's the logic behind that? Do you think they just think
they have a small pool of people that they just like to work with
and they're not willing to entertain?
I mean, what I can see is that the ballet dancers who are
represented by agencies are your people who are stars.
They're the people who seem to have representation and I don't
know if they think that because I have ballet on my seat,
because I'm a ballet dancer, that they I'm putting myself up
on that level, which I am not. I know I am not silver GM or go
to Bole. I, I know this, but I don't know
if they think that maybe I'm trying to compare myself to
them. I don't know.
I will say though, that I have been to castings when they need
a ballet dancer, a freelance ballet dancer.
And 99% of the time when I've gone for these TV or film or or
TV like an advertising campaign when they've needed a specific
ballet dancer, I have lost the job to someone who is not a
ballet dancer because I don't look like a male ballet dancer
in their eyes, you know what I mean?
They're looking for someone who is probably 6 foot broad
shoulders and looks like a man. And that's what those
advertising campaigns, those TV commercials, those whatever it
is, see as a ballet dancer. And I don't know if the agencies
are kind of the same that they don't know where to place me.
I have no idea. But I would just wanted to share
that because I think it's important to be open about not
getting jobs. Definitely.
And I think if you're in this business and you know you're not
prepared to be rejected, then you're going to you're going to
struggle because for dancers, for performers at our stage in
our careers, we've had a very fruitful career.
But that's because we're older. You know, we've also had a lot
of rejection. It's just part and parcel.
And I think some things you'll be devastated over are some
things you won't care so much. And I think when you look back,
you'll realize, you know, you were upset at the time over
something, but actually, it would have never have fulfilled
you anyway. You know, all sorts of different
scenarios that have, you know, kind of weave through, you know,
one's career. It's unrealistic to think that
every audition or casting that you walk into, whether you've
been invited or not, it's unrealistic to think that it's a
yes every single time. I can't.
I don't think I know one thing. We know a lot of phenomenal
performers and I don't think any single one of them have had such
an exceptional, rewarding career in terms of yes to everything.
We all go through ups and downs and I think you just have to be
again, self aware, Monitor, monitor Why?
I mean, I, I had a very interesting experience where I
was invited, I was invited to audition for a company that I
was actually working for in a different production to be seen
for a role in a, in a different production, but within the same
company set up. And you know, so obviously I
knew all the panel. I knew, have I knew, knew most
people taking the audition, very friendly, very familiar.
And I did the audition and which I was personally invited to.
And then I think it was in the middle of the summer, and I'd
actually changed my travel plans to come back for this audition.
It was a full day. As you do, as you do.
Yeah, as you do. And then there was a couple of
weeks because it was summer. So I anticipated, you know,
hearing in a couple, you know, a fortnight or whatnot.
But when I finally heard that I didn't get the role.
It was a very generic, this is how long ago it was.
It was a very generic in the mail.
Thank you for auditioning, but no thanks.
Thanks, but no thanks. And I was furious because the
lack of respect, not only had I been invited to be in that room,
the, the very least the audition panel or person or whoever, you
know, could have said thank you. We know that we, you know, we
know, you know, we love you as a performer because you're, we've
currently employed you. However, for this specific role,
XY and Z didn't quite fit or suit.
And so I brought them up on it. I sent an e-mail and, and I was
young. I was young and and I was, I was
so angry. I think the lack of respect, and
I think I didn't write in an angry way, certainly.
You know what you're like. You would have written my
passive aggressive. That wasn't, that wasn't my
intention, but I wanted to know why.
If you're going to invite me to an audition, make me dance all
day long, smiling at me all day long, and then you send me, you
know, a crappy generic letter. I was.
I was just, I was so angry and so I had a bit of to and fro
with the management until they finally said well This is why.
And I was like great, now I know why brilliant makes total sense
to me and now I understand, but not telling me.
It's not even the why in that scenario, it's it's the fact
that I'm sorry you invited me, give me the and I work for you
currently because I've had the exactly the same thing other
places that somewhere that I'm working for right now and then
I'm going to audition and then I get a generic e-mail back from
you. I'm like, bitch, come down the
corridor and talk to me. They're in the same building.
Yeah. It's it's.
That it's just it respect. It's a lack of respect.
Respect. Come on.
From me, my interpretation is this.
They've decided that they don't want you.
So you no longer math, you no longer matter and you no longer
count. And this this lack of respect
for dancers or performers, they don't feel it within themselves
that they need to merit giving a reason because you've you've
been dismissed. We don't want you.
You can go. And I think that mentality has
not shifted because if it had shifted, we would all, for those
who had been turned down, should receive a personalized letter.
And I appreciate it takes time, but if we've taken the time to
step into the room and audition for you, the least you could do
if you're saying no is to say why.
Because actually, the people that you've cut, you've already
said something very nice to them.
Every audition I've been to, nearly every audition I've been
to within the past 10 years. I know before that was it a
different time and within the last 10 years when I've gone to
audition and people have been caught, there has been a Thank
you very much for coming. It was great to see you.
Sadly you guys, we will not be seeing more from you today.
Thank you very much About whatever they needed to say.
Those people don't need an e-mail.
They don't get an e-mail. They had a very nice speech
given to they've been caught. But those people who have then
stayed with you till 6:00 in the evening, singing or doing solos
or doing Rep or whatever it is, the majority of places that I've
auditioned don't even tell them that they haven't got the job.
Usually the people who get the job hear that they've got the
job, and the other people are just left in limbo.
Yeah, it's outrageous. It really isn't infuriating.
So there's not that many people because the cup people have
already been. Told yeah, the least you can do
for those people that you've kept all day long but still
deciding not to take it's it's just just have some common
decency and respect. But we're so replaceable.
I think that the problem is, is we're still very, very
replaceable as dances and casting is a whole other
discussion, but it's not, it's not always the best person for
the job that's selected anyway. So it's, it's, it's, it's a,
it's a minefield of power and ego, which is why auditioning is
so intimidating for, for, for the, for the artist.
And I think you've just got to have a strong stomach for this
profession because there will be a lot of rejection, but there
will also be many wonderful life changing, in some cases, moments
where it all makes it worthwhile.
But the journey, the journey is a tough journey and you just
have to be ready for that. And sadly, there's no getting
away from it. Auditions and castings are the
way to get a job in this industry.
And relationships, I think also building relationships.
Again, just a really fine final point.
You know, when I was growing up in this industry, being the
naive, you know, 17/18/19 year old, I hadn't really understood,
you know, the importance of, of building professional
relationships because in my mind, if you're good enough,
you'll be rewarded. You know, that was, that was my
mentality. If you're good enough, you'll be
rewarded, you know, so building positive professional
relationships, and I say positive rather than
manipulative because we all know there are many manipulative
relationships within most professions.
And it's not exclusively, you know, to the dance world, but I
think, you know, if I'd have had somebody in my earlier career,
you know, just just to say, you know, do you have a five year
plan or actually what kind of repertoire do you prefer to
dart? You know, some guidance rather,
because you do feel like you're just floating around for the
first few years after graduation, don't you?
I think in most cases, you know, you know, unless you've
auditioned for a ballet company and you kind of set for life as
in. What audition are they?
You never do a audition again. 20 years later, you know, you're
still, yeah, you know those type.
And that can also happen in musical theatre.
You know, we've known people who have been in Chicago for 20
years, who have been in Cats for, you know, 20 years.
You know, it can happen that way too.
But I think it's good to have some awareness.
But it's also great to have a little bit of guidance in the,
in those early, early years. But we also have to take
responsibility, you know, for us, and now we have access to so
much information. It's, you know.
There are podcasts there to listen to to help you.
We've. Got 3 You've got, you know,
three seasons to there's. No excuse, actually.
I just want to give a shout out to our dear friend Rebecca
Jackson. It's really Rebecca Williams,
but she'll always be Rebecca Jackson.
She's really getting in, getting into the the episode.
So if she's listening, I just want to say hi, Rebecca.
She's loving them. And it was Rebecca's son who we
spoke about actually last year, who was in the snowman at the
Peacock Theatre. Yes, he wasn't.
He was fantastic. A little star.
Cheers, Becky. Cheers to Bex, lots of love.
Well, everybody, I hope that helped you.
I hope that discussion helped you and maybe you got an insight
into, well, my dramatic experiences.
But yeah, I really hope that you got something out of that
episode and took some little helpful hints from us.
Yeah, and as always, thank you so much for listening to another
episode of Drinks at the Bar with Poppy and I.
And please, you know, don't be shy.
Do let your fellow dance mates know we're here so they can have
a little listen and help support our podcast.
That would be much, much appreciated.
Yes, I could agree with you more.
Every recommendation from you guys really really helps spread
the gospel of Denise and Poppy. And our childhood traumas.
So on that note, Denise, thank you.
It's been fantastic again. Lots of love.
Love you lots. Take care everybody, Until next
time, bye.