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Hang on, cut. 
Wait, why are you laughing? 

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I'm reacting. 
Oh, OK, OK, OK, OK. 

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Don't react till I'm finished. 
Great. 

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I got my up in hot flash. 
OK. 

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Hello and welcome to Drinks at 
the Bar, a podcast where we 

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breakthrough the 4th wall and 
discuss everything about dance 

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and the theatre industry. 
My name is Paul James Rooney, a 

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dancer, choreographer and dance 
teacher based in Copenhagen. 

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I'm your host of Drinks at the 
Bar. 

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Today I am joined by my regular 
guest host. 

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Yes, you have seen her in the 
motion picture adaptation of The

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Phantom of the Opera. 
It is Damien Lee Sturk. 

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Hi everybody, I'm Damien Lee 
Sterk, director of the Dancer's 

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Studio London, classical ballet 
teacher, actor with the role 

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ballet and featured artist in 
Joel Schumacher's blockbuster 

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Phantom of the Opera. 
Rent it out Blockbusters near 

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you. 
Absolutely. 

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Bonus Edition. 
Here we will discuss everything 

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from hearing backstage stories, 
touring shenanigans, to deeper 

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issues like body image training,
the reality of being a freelance

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dancer, and much more. 
With guest professionals, we are

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here to share our knowledge, 
experience, and help you with 

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any questions or problems that 
you may have about dance and 

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navigating the dance world. 
Hello, Denise. 

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How are we? 
It's been a while. 

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Hello my darling. 
Yes, it has been a while 

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actually. 
I've been up and down the 

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country with Alan, keeping very 
busy considering it's a brief 

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pause between contracts. 
So yeah, how, how have you been?

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Been good. 
I mean, it's been slow, easy 

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start to the, you know, season 
of all the teaching, all the 

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schools opening and everything. 
I'm actually going to a new 

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school. 
Well, not a new school. 

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I'm going to the musical theatre
school in Denmark on Thursday. 

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I've never taught there before, 
so I'm going there to teach a 

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big dance workshop which I'm 
really looking forward to so. 

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Fantastic, That's brilliant. 
Something new, something 

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exciting. 
Exactly. 

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I'm really happy to, you know, 
get into that school. 

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And yes, you know, it's always 
nice to have another employer on

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the list to offer you classes to
teach. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Life of a freelance dancer. 

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Life of a freelance dancer. 
All right sweetheart, well I 

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have got myself from my last 
trip to the UKI brought home an 

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Edinburgh gin with rhubarb and 
ginger. 

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Oh Twiki, that sounds lovely. 
So gin and tonic with a rhubarb 

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and ginger gin. 
Almost snapsies. 

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I have a gin and diatonic. 
I think it's important to say 

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it's a diatonic. 
Full full transparency and it's 

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a Marks and sparks classic. 
So cheers. 

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Cheers. 
Cheers to Saint Michael. 

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Down the down the hat. 
How's the Tangier rhubarb? 

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It's nice because the ginger 
really like counteracts the 

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sweetness of the rhubarb. 
Very nice. 

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And it really is medicinal for 
this time of year. 

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Ginger is so good for. 
You. 

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That's the only reason I'm 
having it this week. 

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We are talking everything. 
Auditions and castings, We all 

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hate them. 
Well, I say that, but I've 

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actually met some people who say
I actually really like 

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auditions, and I'm sorry, but I 
call bullshit. 

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Yeah, I don't believe these 
people for a second that say 

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that they they like auditions, 
but maybe they do. 

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Maybe they're just trying to do 
some sort of reverse psychology 

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on themselves or trying to take 
away the auditions power or 

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something. 
I don't know. 

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Yeah, you'd have to be quiet 
into Salem masochism to enjoy 

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going into the room and being 
told you're not good enough on 

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the regular. 
Yeah, but have you ever thought 

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that maybe those people who like
auditions are the ones that have

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been successful in every role 
they've gone for? 

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You know, maybe they've never 
experienced rejection, they've 

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never heard a no. 
So for them, an audition is a 

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positive experience. 
I actually have never thought 

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about like that. 
So good for them that they never

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got any rejection. 
But let's jump into this 

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episode. 
So before you go for an audition

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or a casting, before you even 
apply to that auditional casting

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online, you need a CV. 
As we've mentioned many times on

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this podcast, what we are trying
to do here is trying to teach 

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you some things that you don't 
learn in the classroom because 

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your dance teachers only have a 
certain amount of hours with 

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you. 
And they are the majority of the

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time teaching you how to do your
tondos and how to do your flick 

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flax and all of that kind of 
stuff. 

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So we're here to to teach you 
the other stuff. 

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So ACV I would say is very, very
easy. 

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A black and white headshot in 
the top left corner and you've 

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got your name in the top and 
some details, your height, 

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weight, nationality and then 
list your education and then 

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jobs. 
Yeah, and I think it's important

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to keep updating it as well. 
In fact, I mean, I've just 

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recently been asked to submit a 
biography for an upcoming 

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production. 
So I had to then kind of 

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reevaluate, rethink what do I 
want to highlight? 

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I only had a certain amount of 
words I was able to use. 

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So, you know, you do find that 
throughout your entire career, 

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you're constantly kind of 
rejigging and highlighting and, 

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and editing, you know, 11's 
journey. 

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But I appreciate in the 
beginning you know your your CV 

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can be quite sparse. 
Well, yes, sparse, but also it's

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an integral, integral part of of
job searching. 

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You need to have the CV and like
you're saying about your biog, 

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you need to keep it updated. 
Your CV you need to keep, it's 

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going to be with you constantly.
You're constantly having to 

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update. 
Exactly keep those details 

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updated and current. 
You know, if you've changed your

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telephone number, if you've 
moved house, everything up to 

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date and and easily accessible 
on your on your laptop or 

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wherever you're editing your, 
you know, your documents, you 

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know, so you can go back in 
quickly. 

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You know, I've had to do it. 
And like on the run, you know, 

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I'm leaving the gym. 
I'm about to go to Marks and 

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Spencer and somebody's asked, 
oh, could you just pop your CV 

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to this e-mail address? 
Because we're looking for such 

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and such and such and, you know,
so you're kind of updating it in

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real time. 
So having those skills to be 

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able to edit quickly also is is 
is really important. 

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And I will say that as you go 
along your career, get rid of 

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stuff on your CV because when 
you were young and you've just 

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graduated, like you've just 
mentioned, your CV is going to 

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be sparse. 
It's going to be quite empty 

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because you haven't done 
anything yet. 

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And that's understandable. 
So your CV will probably be your

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performances that you did with 
English National Ballet when you

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were 16 and you were joining the
company as a student or whatever

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it is. 
But as you go further in your 

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career and you get more jobs, 
take the crap off. 

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Don't leave everything on there 
forever. 

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It's a waste of time. 
Nobody wants to. 

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You don't need it. 
Take it off. 

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Yeah. 
In the same breath, I will also 

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say I don't keep my CVI, do keep
it in chronological order. 

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But I don't write dates on 
there. 

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I just, I just don't feel like 
we need to write. 

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I was at Tivoli from 2008 until 
2016. 

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Then it was this, from this to 
this, because as a freelancer 

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you will have jobs in between 
things all the time. 

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And when I was in Tivoli, for 
example, for 10 years, all my 

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musicals and other jobs I did 
were in between that time. 

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So then it looks like a messy 
CV. 

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If I'm here from 2006 to 2015, 
but also in 12 and 14, I did 

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this like you don't need dates, 
we don't need that. 

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No, I agree. 
And, and, and thinking about it 

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now, you know, that was always 
something that I struggled with 

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how to present it in a manner 
that was easily, can be easily 

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read by the person asking for 
the CV because there's freelance

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dancers. 
I think we followed the 

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structure of a corporate CVI 
believe and that was kind of 

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what was handed down. 
Yes. 

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And it just doesn't make sense 
if you're a freelance dancer 

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because the dates are just all 
over the place. 

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And I think if anybody is 
concerned, you know, So what 

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were you doing between, you 
know, 2013 and 2015? 

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If they can't make it out from 
the CV, you know, you just 

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explain when I was doing 15 
different jobs during that time.

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That's why it's kind of, you 
know, written in such a way. 

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But yeah, I would agree. 
I don't think we need dates 

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anymore. 
I mean, I would argue there are,

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there's a lot of information 
that we we should not 

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necessarily have to put on ACV 
these days. 

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But yeah, anyway, that that's a 
whole other episode. 

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But, you know, personal details 
and and you know, where we are 

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with, you know, gender identity 
and whatnot. 

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But yeah, let's scrap the dates.
Let's scrap the dates. 

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I also I changed my CV depending
on what I'm auditioning for now.

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The majority of time nowadays I 
am auditioning for musicals. 

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I'm not really going down ballet
route anymore, but go back a 

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couple of years, I was 
auditioning for contemporary 

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jobs, ballet jobs and musical 
jobs all at the same time. 

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I would change my CV for each 
audition, so I would put towards

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the top of my CV by more 
contemporary work that I've 

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done. 
Yeah, because the person reading

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your CV is going to look at your
job straight away. 

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And if I've got how my CV looks 
right now, Kinky Boots, the 

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producers, Anastasia, it's just 
like listing musicals before 

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even touches, you know, Matthew 
Bourne and D development and, 

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you know, contemporary work that
I've done. 

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So I do move things around or 
take things off to suit the job 

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to make it appropriate for the 
job that I'm going for. 

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Definitely. 
I think that's a clever way to 

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present yourself because you, 
you want, you know, the aim is 

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to stand out and to grab their 
attention. 

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And I think, you know, if I was 
going for a teaching position, I

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wouldn't necessarily start with,
you know, my early performing 

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career. 
You know, I would, I would 

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present something that shows I'm
currently teaching my, my 

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teaching history, etcetera, 
etcetera. 

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So I think that's great tip. 
Eliminate and showcase yourself 

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the best way. 
Exactly because I know that when

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I've gone to, you know, you're 
trying to give yourself the best

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footing. 
And if your CV arrives on their 

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00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,200
table and they're looking for a 
professional ballet dancer and 

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00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,160
they get ACV that lists 
Hairspray, Lion King, Sound of 

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00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,720
Music, all of this kind of 
stuff, and they're like, but I'm

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00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,040
looking for a ballet dancer. 
Why is this musical theatre a 

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00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,560
performer written to me? 
They don't know you're 

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00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:18,120
versatile. 
They don't know you've done 

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00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,440
other stuff. 
You need to put the ballet stuff

200
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,200
at the top of the CV so they can
see straight away when they're 

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00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:25,600
going through their hundreds of 
CVS. 

202
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,680
Oh, that guy, he's this tall. 
He looks like this and he's done

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00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:30,760
this. 
Yeah. 

204
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,360
Agreed. 
I will also say that your little

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00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,920
corner headshot on your CV, if 
you have one, needs to be 

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00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,000
updated and needs to look like 
you. 

207
00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:49,360
I feel attacked and I believe 
that Catherine Zeta Jones and I 

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00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,560
do look alike and therefore I'm 
happy to use her headshot 

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00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,120
whenever I fancy. 
I will say that from recently 

210
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,320
with James sitting in the 
audition on the audition panel 

211
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,480
and going through these CVS and 
having everything. 

212
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,440
I'm looking at your CV and 
there's the picture in the top 

213
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,600
left corner. 
Let's just say that I'm using 

214
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,240
and looking up at you and then 
you've left the room and then 

215
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,400
we're going through these 
things. 

216
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,400
I need that picture to look like
the person I just saw on the 

217
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,400
audition because fine, if you've
also sent some dance shots with 

218
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,080
your CV, they're not going to be
printed out and given to me at 

219
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,840
the audition. 
I've literally got your CV with 

220
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,760
the photograph of you and that's
it. 

221
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,560
So I need what is in front of me
to look like the person who is 

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00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,440
dancing in front of me in the 
studio. 

223
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,120
So I remember you. 
I agree, I'm nodding. 

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00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,640
It's just that we're notorious 
for, you know, we're an art form

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00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,720
that is obsessed more than ever 
with youth. 

226
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,200
It always has been. 
So I, I, I do understand why 

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00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,160
people you continue. 
Also, head shots can be quite 

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00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,200
expensive. 
So I'm not surprised, you know, 

229
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,200
most people don't have the the 
luxury to update often. 

230
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,120
But I think now with, with you 
know, and the iPhone and these 

231
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,080
fancy cameras, you know, we, 
there's no excuse. 

232
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,080
In fact, in fact my last few 
headshots I've taken myself. 

233
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,280
I was going to say exactly the 
same thing when you were talking

234
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,960
about the obsessed with youth 
and people wanted to keep that 

235
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,240
their young photo on their CV. 
The jig is up. 

236
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,120
You're coming to the audition. 
I'm going to see how old you are

237
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,520
when you turn up. 
Yeah. 

238
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:26,840
Don't get a new headshot and to 
to literally back up what you're

239
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,560
saying as well. 
Nowadays your headshot for your 

240
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:35,720
CV is literally going to be the 
size of a postage stamp on your 

241
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,520
CV. 
It does not need to be a Mario 

242
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,480
Testino photo shoot or whatever,
an Annie Leibovitz photo shoot. 

243
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,640
It does not have to be the most 
amazing quality thing. 

244
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,640
Your iPhone will take a good 
enough photograph. 

245
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,640
If you are in against a white 
wall or a black wall with a nice

246
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,040
little ring light. 
Take a photograph of yourself. 

247
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,160
Play with the contrast ever so 
slightly. 

248
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,840
Make it black and white. 
Put it on your CV. 

249
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:01,800
That is a good enough headshot 
for ACV. 

250
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,080
Yeah, yeah. 
If you ask for a headshot for 

251
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,120
the programme of the show that 
you're going to be in, no, maybe

252
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,080
that's not the best idea. 
But we're not talking about 

253
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,960
that. 
We're talking about ACV headshot

254
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,600
picture that looks like you. 
Exactly. 

255
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,200
And I think, you know, when you 
are turning up to an audition, 

256
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,400
like you say, you know, we need 
you to look like you. 

257
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,040
There might be 200 people in 
that room. 

258
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,040
And we're certainly not going to
remember names, you know, but 

259
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,560
faces. 
But if if. 

260
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,400
Your number has fallen off. 
Yeah, your number's fallen off. 

261
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,000
You've you're sweating through 
your number. 

262
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,120
It's on the floor. 
It's been dragged all over the 

263
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,920
floor. 
You know, you're flushed in the 

264
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,440
face and we're looking at a 
picture that was 15 years old 

265
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,600
and we can't find you in the 
corridor because. 

266
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,240
The jig is up the jig. 
I'm laughing because I've so 

267
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,040
done that so many times, 
particularly when we were doing 

268
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,040
reoccurring tours each year. 
It's like year 7 but like year 

269
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,960
one photo. 
I mean, I had a headshot photo 

270
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,880
taken maybe two years ago, 1 1/2
years, two years ago or 

271
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,000
something, and I was sending off
my CV quite recently and I sent 

272
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,040
her off and I was like, I have a
shaved head. 

273
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,800
I don't look like that person 
anymore, even though the photo 

274
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,480
is not that old. 
Yeah, but I now have no hair. 

275
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,000
The chick is. 
Off the chick is. 

276
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,440
Off Update your CV, update your 
photo. 

277
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,000
Yeah, don't be coy. 
You have to turn up, you have to

278
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,640
be in the room. 
So you know, there's only so 

279
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,760
much so far you can push the. 
Photoshop. 

280
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,680
The Photoshop and trust me, I've
tried all the tricks. 

281
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,280
Before we go on to the physical 
turning up to an audition, let's

282
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,040
just quickly throw in there. 
Times are different nowadays. 

283
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,560
We are not really going to 
pineapple and looking at a 

284
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,000
physical notice board and 
finding an audition or casting 

285
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,200
up there and writing to the 
phone number or whatever was on 

286
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,640
the list. 
Also gone are the days where 

287
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,560
you're getting your Dance Europe
magazine in the post and 

288
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,000
checking out the auditions 
there. 

289
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,560
Yeah, I missed those days. 
I. 

290
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,800
Mean those days it was a little 
bit easier, I want to say the 

291
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,040
word because there was not many 
other places you had to look. 

292
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,200
There was the Dance Europe 
magazine that came that listed 

293
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,360
all the auditions for the 
companies for that month. 

294
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,280
Whereas now you have to follow 
so many Facebook groups and 

295
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,200
Instagram groups and follow 
companies own websites and all 

296
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920
this kind of stuff. 
But I will say do it. 

297
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,480
You have to use your social 
media to follow people to find 

298
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,960
out where the work is. 
Find these global audition 

299
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,680
Facebook groups. 
Follow the companies that you 

300
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,160
want to audition for. 
Follow Dance Europe if it still 

301
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,520
exists. 
You know, follow pages because 

302
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,160
you need to find out where these
auditions are because dance 

303
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,120
companies especially are not 
going to be going through 

304
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:02,400
agencies to find their people. 
That's a very commercial route. 

305
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,480
That's for their short term TV 
commercial or film or whatever 

306
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,920
job, A ballet company, English 
National Ballet. 

307
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,040
If they're looking for four 
soloist guys, they're not going 

308
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,600
to go to an agency. 
They're going to post it online 

309
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,440
or prospective places for people
to apply. 

310
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,840
Yeah, it, it, it's, it's a great
idea to remain connected with 

311
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,600
your community And because half 
the time, you know, it can be a 

312
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,080
friend saying, oh, did you hear 
there's an audition for such and

313
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,960
such and next Sunday or that's 
all it can take. 

314
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,680
So I think, you know, you need 
to keep your ears pricked and, 

315
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,880
and, and be receptive to what's 
going on around you. 

316
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,520
You know, the job will not fall 
in. 

317
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,120
It's very rare for a job, 
certainly in the beginning, it's

318
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,200
very rare for a job to fall in 
your lap. 

319
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,320
You know, as you get older, the 
more experience you have, you 

320
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,440
tend to be offered work through 
word of mouth because of your 

321
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,320
experience, definitely. 
But certainly when you're young 

322
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,360
and you're starting out, you 
need to kind of be fully aware. 

323
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,599
But also, even when you're older
and you've got the experience 

324
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,119
and you're more likely to get 
offered a job, it's still that 

325
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,800
sentiment of out of sight, out 
of mind though. 

326
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,960
So if you are away from the 
industry, not going to class or 

327
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,040
not meeting up with friends who 
are in shows or whatever, that 

328
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,280
job, that may be handed to you 
on a plate because they like you

329
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,520
and your experience. 
But if you're not in their 

330
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,640
mind's eye, they wouldn't think 
of you. 

331
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,520
There's something about being 
present. 

332
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,800
Oh yeah, if you're if you're sat
at home on a chaise long 

333
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,560
drinking Marks and Spencer's gin
and tonics and you haven't been 

334
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,240
to class for six months, yeah, 
they're not going to you're not 

335
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,120
going to get that e-mail saying 
hi. 

336
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,080
We'd love for you. 
We'd love to see you for such 

337
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,520
we'd. 
Love you to be the zebra in 

338
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520
Birmingham Royal Palace. 
Still live at the Penguin Cafe. 

339
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,600
Would you be a good Zeb? 
I think you'd be a good zebra, 

340
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:54,920
would you not? 
I think I would. 

341
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,800
Yeah, I think I would. 
I'd be more the dormouse I 

342
00:17:58,800 --> 00:17:59,960
think. 
I think you'd be a perfect 

343
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,400
dormouse, although maybe we'd be
better. 

344
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,040
Penguins. 
Lady Penguins. 

345
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,360
Be present. 
Hold your ear to the ground. 

346
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,440
There are so many outlets 
nowadays for auditions and 

347
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,840
castings to be presented and you
need to kind of follow lots 

348
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,840
because if I was running a 
company, I wouldn't know which 

349
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,320
one to choose. 
I don't know which one that 

350
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,720
everyone is looking at. 
So you have to follow and look 

351
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,280
at multiple places to find that 
audition. 

352
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:34,600
Yeah, be switched on for sure. 
Regarding something we just 

353
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,360
spoke about, about checking 
websites and checking Instagram 

354
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:41,080
groups and Facebook groups and 
such, there is that one thing to

355
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,000
remember that your massive state
funded dance companies have to 

356
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,560
have an audition every year 
whether there is a job or not. 

357
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,520
So just have that in mind. 
That is how the industry work 

358
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,920
in, in Germany, in Spain, in 
Denmark, in Holland, in, in lots

359
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,640
of countries, these big 
contemporary or ballet 

360
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,720
companies, they will have to 
legally have an audition to be 

361
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,120
actively looking for dancers 
every single year, whether they 

362
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,880
have a contract or not 
available. 

363
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,920
So sadly, sometimes there were 
300 people coming to a big open 

364
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,040
audition for Insert European 
company here and there's not a 

365
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,840
single job available. 
I'm sure literally in the last 

366
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,800
48 hours, I, I saw a clip on 
Instagram and it's one of the 

367
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,120
founders of bar trash. 
And I'm sure he was saying or 

368
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,320
fighting for companies to only 
call for auditions if they 

369
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,880
actually have positions 
available. 

370
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,120
It was in the back. 
It was literally in my 

371
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,760
peripheral, like you know how 
you're skimming Instagram and it

372
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,360
just, it sparked my intrigue. 
But because of also, you know, 

373
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:51,760
by being called into an 
audition, it's whether there's a

374
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,160
position or not, it's an 
opportunity for the director and

375
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,280
the artistic team to see you, 
which is a great thing. 

376
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,000
You know, when people ask me for
advice, well, what would such 

377
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,000
and such think? 
You know, I'd love to work for 

378
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,360
this company. 
I'd love to work for that 

379
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,920
company. 
And my advice is try and go in 

380
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,000
for company class. 
Let them see you because they 

381
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,440
need to get to know you. 
And on the other side of that, 

382
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,000
you must turn up to an audition 
if you're looking for a job and 

383
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,360
you want to work for that 
company, whether the 300 people 

384
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,480
are in the room and they need 
two people. 

385
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,040
But I I need to go back and 
revisit that clip that I saw 

386
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:30,200
because if you're paying. 
To, to get to an audition, like 

387
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,040
if you're travelling from 
Edinburgh down to London to 

388
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,800
audition for a company based in 
London and you're having to pay 

389
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,760
for accommodation and overnight 
accommodation, you know, train 

390
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,240
fare and there is no job. 
I think transparency is key. 

391
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,840
Then at least if they say we're 
holding an audition, we're 

392
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,400
looking for dancers potentially 
for next season, We currently 

393
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,480
don't have any positions. 
Then at least you can make the 

394
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,120
decision. 
You know what, I'm going to risk

395
00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:00,480
it, but I think they have to be 
they have to be transparent so 

396
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,560
that, you know, the person 
paying the money understands 

397
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,640
one, there's no job actually, 
and this is a risk, financial 

398
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,600
risk, but the benefit of that is
being in the room with the 

399
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,920
people that are making those 
decisions eventually. 

400
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,280
So I. 
Mean yes, what you said, travel 

401
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,800
and accommodation, but even if 
it's not travel, accommodation, 

402
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,560
if you're unemployed and you are
going to an audition, well if 

403
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,000
you are going to audition, you 
are probably unemployed as in 

404
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,920
dance unemployed. 
You might be working at Pizza 

405
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,360
Express or whatever, but you're 
probably going to have to be 

406
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,400
taking time off work to go to 
this audition. 

407
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,120
So either way, whether it's 
financial from Edinburgh to 

408
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,120
London or having to have 
accommodation or just taking a 

409
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,880
normal day off or using your, 
it's wasting your time. 

410
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,720
I know. 
I mean, the reason is because 

411
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,120
they're receiving money from the
government and they have to be 

412
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:53,240
actively looking for the new 
talent. 

413
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,920
I get it if there there was that
disclaimer, like you said, this 

414
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,240
season we are having a big open 
audition to look to see what is 

415
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,760
out there. 
However, there's no contracts 

416
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,240
available. 
It needs to be a conversation 

417
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,000
between the company and the 
government that they or the the 

418
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,440
funding provider that they are 
allowed to do that, to inform 

419
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,520
the dancers to to inform the 
applicants that you are running 

420
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,760
the risk of coming to an 
audition where there is no job. 

421
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,760
It's not a single place that's 
doing this. 

422
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,760
This is every state funded 
company. 

423
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,560
And sadly, it's not even just 
the dancers, it's also the huge 

424
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,920
director jobs. 
When they are looking for a new 

425
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,200
artistic director, they 
advertise the job. 

426
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,960
So you have got your, I don't 
know, amazing top people in the 

427
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,680
dance world from all over the 
world applying for a job that 

428
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,920
might not exist because either 
the director has said yes to 

429
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,240
take on another four years of 
his contract, or they've already

430
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,360
given it to a principal dancer 
within the company that's going 

431
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,480
to become that director. 
Whatever the reason, they still 

432
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,760
have to apply, advertise the 
job. 

433
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,240
So it's also that level jobs are
also being advertised when there

434
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,360
is no position available. 
It's interesting, isn't it? 

435
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:10,040
I mean, I've certainly done 
auditions and then they've 

436
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,360
turned round and said actually 
we can no longer offer the 

437
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,560
position because the person that
was leaving has decided to stay.

438
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:23,160
And also certainly positions are
filled internally for sure. 

439
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,680
In fact, I would argue 9 times 
out of 10 they already know who 

440
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,720
they want to replace said 
person. 

441
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,880
Especially the higher up jobs. 
I would say your bi masters, 

442
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,640
your rehearsal directors, your. 
Dana. 

443
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,960
Dana or whatever, the majority 
of the time they already have 

444
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,080
someone or they know who they 
want to ask or yeah, but it's 

445
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,320
still, you know, I've applied 
for us teaching jobs and then my

446
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,600
friend is then also working 
there and then goes, oh, that 

447
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,640
job's not available though. 
Like, so I just wasted my entire

448
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,280
day writing a new application 
because it's not just sending 

449
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,200
ACV and a photo. 
No, a teaching job or a 

450
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,320
directorial job or anything like
that. 

451
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,800
It's an application stating what
you're going to do specifically 

452
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,080
for this company or for this 
said dance school or whatever it

453
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,680
is. 
In that sense. 

454
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,720
It's not just here's my CV and a
headshot. 

455
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:12,880
Hope you call me. 
In No. 

456
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,040
You would have to. 
You have to write an entire 

457
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,040
presentation, an application for
those jobs. 

458
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,400
It's a lot of work. 
It's a lot of work. 

459
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,400
Back to auditions, so you have 
received your invitation from 

460
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,040
hopefully you have oh, now I'm 
going to complain about that. 

461
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,720
Companies out there listening, I
hope you're listening. 

462
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,880
Reply I know the dance world is 
big. 

463
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,440
If I have sent you an e-mail and
I've sent you an application, 

464
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,240
reply to me and say you are not 
invited or you are invited. 

465
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:52,920
My e-mail just going unresponded
to firstly is rude, but also did

466
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,120
you receive it? 
Did it go in your junk mail? 

467
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,760
Do I have the wrong e-mail 
address? 

468
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,760
Please just tell me that I'm not
invited to the audition or or 

469
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,000
that I am invited to the 
audition. 

470
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,920
Don't just leave it empty 
because there's. 

471
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,960
I've written to places before on
multiple occasions when they've 

472
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,880
had different auditions over the
years and have never received a 

473
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,400
reply. 
So I start thinking, does my 

474
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,960
e-mail go into their junk? 
Because I've had people go into 

475
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,600
my junk mail before. 
It does happen. 

476
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,360
My work at the New Theatre in 
Copenhagen always goes into my 

477
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,400
junk mail. 
So that feeling of I've applied 

478
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,640
for jobs in this certain place 
and have never received a reply.

479
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,080
Are they reading my mails? 
If you are, write to me. 

480
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,400
I would hope that the person in 
charge of receiving emails to 

481
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,640
coordinate auditions should be 
checking their junk mail right 

482
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,040
regardless. 
Well, you would hope. 

483
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,720
So I think mainly it's born out 
of rudeness and time. 

484
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,880
They don't have the time. 
I know it's no excuse every 

485
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,880
e-mail should be responded to, 
but I think there are occasions 

486
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,840
where perhaps they just or they 
forget or the people that are 

487
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,960
running or the people that are 
replying to these emails aren't 

488
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,280
necessarily trained to be 
replying to people. 

489
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,320
You know, you know how things 
jobs get levied out exactly. 

490
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,080
And I and I think you need a 
proper person with proper 

491
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,360
computer skills that understand 
and the time to understand the 

492
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,720
coordination it takes to get 
these people in. 

493
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,920
If you've made an application, 
and I totally agree. 

494
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,640
If you've applied in the past, 
I've certainly written. 

495
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,600
I'd appreciate, you know, 
confirmation of receipt of this 

496
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,040
e-mail, basically saying e-mail 
me back because I already know 

497
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,560
what I'm going to wear. 
No, I think it's important. 

498
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Yeah, we have an entire episode,
I'm sure in seasons 567 of 

499
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,360
respect for the dancer. 
You know which. 

500
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,040
I just think we're in this day 
and age now where we've started.

501
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,760
You know, we haven't just 
started. 

502
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,920
We're already in it. 
We are already in the place, 

503
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,120
which is great that we are 
looking after the dancer. 

504
00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,960
We're treating them more like 
people, which is great. 

505
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,960
The people holding the audition 
have all the power. 

506
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,800
However you want us, you want us
to come to you so you can feel 

507
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,720
your position. 
So actually we have the power 

508
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,240
you want us to turn up to your 
audition. 

509
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,360
So be polite to us and reply to 
us. 

510
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,360
Respect, like we've said before 
on this podcast, like we can't 

511
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,880
just go in that old fashioned 
way that respect is just there. 

512
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,840
Respect is a two way St. 
You write to me and say thank 

513
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,080
you for applying for your for 
our audition. 

514
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,440
We sadly will not be wanting you
or whatever or thank you for 

515
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,440
your reply. 
Please join us on Wednesday at 

516
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,400
7:00 at Pineapple blah, blah, 
blah. 

517
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,680
Whatever it is, treat us like a 
human being. 

518
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,200
Because you need me. 
Well, oh, if you don't want me 

519
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,240
at your audition, you don't need
me. 

520
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,160
But you might need me. 
You know what I mean? 

521
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,000
Like you, you're not God. 
You need us to turn up. 

522
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,720
You're asking for us to apply. 
You have put an advert out there

523
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,240
saying please write to us. 
So the smallest thing you could 

524
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,880
do would be thank you, I've 
received it. 

525
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,840
I don't want to see you at the 
audition. 

526
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,840
That's it. 
So you've arrived at your 

527
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,280
audition. 
You are physically in the room. 

528
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,080
You got your e-mail. 
Or had you or have you just 

529
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,840
turned up regardless? 
Some things to think about and 

530
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,320
be aware of at audition. 
Some things we've spoken about 

531
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,640
before, some things we might not
have spoken about before in this

532
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,280
podcast. 
Couple of things right now you 

533
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,680
just said. 
Or have you not been invited? 

534
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:36,680
Don't turn up if you're not 
invited. 

535
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,640
Don't do it. 
I and also if you get cut, 

536
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,280
leave. 
I've been in situations where 

537
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,320
people have stayed and your CV 
is now not in front of me. 

538
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,680
So I know you're not supposed to
be here because all the people 

539
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,680
that we've cut, they're in a 
pile over there and all the 

540
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
people that are in the room 
should be in the room right now 

541
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,240
are in front of me. 
So if you have stayed, I'm going

542
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,200
to call you out in it because I 
don't have your CV. 

543
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,200
Your number doesn't correlate to
the people who are supposed to 

544
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,120
be in this room. 
Like we know who's supposed to 

545
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,440
be here. 
Go away. 

546
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Thank you for your day. 
You didn't get the job. 

547
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,720
It's shitty, I know. 
Move on. 

548
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,040
Yeah. 
Bye, Jessica. 

549
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,840
Jessica, you're done. 
Get out the room. 

550
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,160
She's holding onto a chair. 
So some quick things to mention 

551
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,760
about auditions. 
OK, so firstly, first 

552
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,960
impressions matter. 
How you walk into the room, how 

553
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,480
you present yourself, This is 
not a hangout. 

554
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,360
This is not a free for all. 
This is a job interview. 

555
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,680
It's a group job interview, 
fine, but it is a job interview.

556
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,920
We're here to get a job, so act 
professional. 

557
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,880
Yeah, the energy should be high.
It's not an opportunity to catch

558
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,720
up with your classmates or, you 
know, people you hang around 

559
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,320
with at the dance studio. 
Polite, respectful. 

560
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Dance for little socks off. 
But it's not a casual 

561
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:01,640
environment. 
You're there. 

562
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,440
You're there. 
It's a competition environment. 

563
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,440
You're gunning for a position. 
Yeah. 

564
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,240
So you want to be the best you 
can be, not just in terms of 

565
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,720
dance skills or singing skills 
or whatever performance skills, 

566
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,280
but also the best representation
of you. 

567
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,880
Respectful, polite, amiable. 
Yeah, but still authentic. 

568
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,800
You know, we're not we're not 
suggesting, you know, Stepford 

569
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,880
wise, but at the same time you 
don't want to be a rebel. 

570
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,720
Some some directors like a 
little bit of a rebel energy, 

571
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,240
but I think it's a risk in that 
scenario. 

572
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,120
Yeah, because we've mentioned it
previously. 

573
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,680
Actually, you don't know the 
personalities of the people 

574
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,120
hiring. 
And if you know one of them, if 

575
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,040
you know James, you might not 
know me, or you don't know the 

576
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,160
director or the musical director
or whoever it is. 

577
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,360
You don't know the personalities
of anyone on that table. 

578
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,120
So what you do could actually 
rub someone the wrong way. 

579
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,360
I totally agree and I must say 
that also applies to the people 

580
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,520
that are behind the desk. 
I was going to say exactly the 

581
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,840
same thing. 
I was going to say that we are 

582
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,040
now in a place, the dance world 
is changing. 

583
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,360
Thank God there is a new 
generation on the other side of 

584
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,600
the table. 
So hopefully things are changing

585
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,560
for the best. 
However, we are not there yet 

586
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,240
because I have said it before, I
have been on the other side of 

587
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,400
the table, but I'm probably one 
of the youngest people on the 

588
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,800
other side of the table. 
So the old school people are 

589
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,920
still there. 
There are still some people in 

590
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:40,040
power, but I would say nowadays 
going to an audition, try and go

591
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,480
there with a mindset of the 
people on the other side of the 

592
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:49,080
table have been in my shoes. 
So hopefully they are modern and

593
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:55,840
understand and empathetic. 
But also remember that like I 

594
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,440
said before, they need to fill 
this position. 

595
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,560
They want the people to come to 
the audition. 

596
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,280
We want you to do your best, so 
we're not there wanting you to 

597
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,840
fail. 
I want to hire the best dancer 

598
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,640
in this room. 
You know what I mean? 

599
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,480
I'm trying to take away some of 
the nerves. 

600
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:13,880
You're never going to take away 
all the nerves. 

601
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,880
I know. 
But it's more the thought of I 

602
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,800
want you to succeed because when
you succeed, I feel my position 

603
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,040
and I've done my job for today. 
Yes, because for the person you 

604
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,240
know going into the audition it 
can. 

605
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,320
It is very intimidating when you
have 5 or 6 people staring at 

606
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,080
you, not smiling, riding things 
down, checking your CV, checking

607
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,360
your headshot, you know, looking
you up and down. 

608
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,160
I mean, you know, that's part 
and parcel of the audition 

609
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,160
process. 
You know, we are very exposed as

610
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,840
as artists. 
But I think it is helpful to 

611
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,040
know that it's a, it's a two way
transaction, isn't it? 

612
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,240
You need a job, they need to 
fill a job position. 

613
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,560
So actually that may, if 
somebody had said that to me in 

614
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,760
my early career, perhaps that 
would have been helpful rather 

615
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,280
than just turning up into a room
and feeling very, very exposed 

616
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,800
and and judged. 
Yeah. 

617
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,600
I will say as a sidebar note, as
we're talking about being on the

618
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,560
other side of the table, all 
this kind of stuff when you are 

619
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,120
a dancer and you audition for 
musicals and you have to go and 

620
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,160
sing. 
A quick side note here, I know 

621
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,160
you're nervous. 
I've been in that position 

622
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,920
before. 
It's very nervous. 

623
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,560
As you're as a dancer you feel 
really strong and really safe 

624
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,080
and as a singer it's not your 
Forte. 

625
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,760
Try and go in there with fake 
confidence and just sing. 

626
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,240
You being really nervous and 
quiet and singing is not helping

627
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,400
you go in there. 
Sing because sometimes you get 

628
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:57,080
the impression from dancers when
they're either quiet or a bit 

629
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,000
blase about the singing. 
It makes them seem like they 

630
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,240
either don't want the job or 
they don't like musicals or 

631
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,080
yeah, it gives off the wrong 
impression. 

632
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,360
And you obviously want this job.
That's why you're here. 

633
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,520
So sometimes this walking in 
apologetic. 

634
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,840
Oh, I don't really sing. 
Oh, I don't know. 

635
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,199
Why are you here? 
Don't tell me that. 

636
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,120
Sorry, Karen. 
No, I was just thinking I if the

637
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,320
person walking into the audition
who has been asked to sing is 

638
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,120
behaving in that way, I would 
argue they are not right for 

639
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,239
that role. 
But that's exactly straight 

640
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,960
away. 
The energy that I get from 

641
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,480
sitting on the panel when you've
come in and you're apologetic 

642
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,080
that I have to listen to you 
sing. 

643
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,560
So I've asked to listen to you 
sing. 

644
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,679
I want to hear you sing because 
I want you to get the job and 

645
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:50,360
you because we've made a cut. 
We've kept the best dancers or 

646
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,960
kept the people that we're 
interested in. 

647
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,440
And now you're coming for the 
second round. 

648
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,800
That shows you that I want you. 
So you coming in and being like 

649
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000
apologetic for yourself that oh,
I'm sorry, I'm shit or I'm sorry

650
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,320
I Can't Sing or it really gives 
off an energy that you don't 

651
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,240
want to be here or you don't 
want the job. 

652
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,560
So put on the fake energy and 
just go in, sing and leave. 

653
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,640
You don't have to be fake and 
talkative and bravado or 

654
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,120
anything like that. 
You just have to go and be like,

655
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,720
hi, sing your song, do it, put 
on that underneath, fake 

656
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:28,160
confidence and get out the roof.
Absolutely, absolutely. 

657
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,720
It's like, why would you give 
there the panel any ammunition 

658
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,880
to think, oh, this person isn't 
confident in in in this at all. 

659
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,440
So they won't they're probably 
not even listening to you sing 

660
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,520
actually, because they they will
have swift, they will have 

661
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,320
eliminated you mentally before 
you finished your, you know, 

662
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,520
bars of whatever you've been 
asked to sing. 

663
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,920
So I think, yeah, presentation 
is key. 

664
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,560
And you're right. 
If if you're not, if you don't 

665
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,600
have such a strong inclination 
for singing, even though you may

666
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,800
enjoy it, but you're still going
for the role because it's 

667
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,720
attractive. 
You see, you could also also be 

668
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,680
in a situation where you're 
going for any job, particularly 

669
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,120
in the beginning, you just go 
for any job because, you know, I

670
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,000
made a little note earlier that 
most companies, certainly when 

671
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,840
we were starting out, you know, 
required two to three years 

672
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,920
professional experience. 
But if you're a fresh graduate, 

673
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,720
where the hell does that 
experience come from? 

674
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,640
You need somebody to take a 
chance. 

675
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,240
So that's why you do find 
yourself as a, as a new starter,

676
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,720
auditioning for everything until
you get your groove and you, 

677
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,520
you, you're auditioning and 
selection process becomes a 

678
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,840
little bit more consistent with 
the style that you're hoping to,

679
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,920
you know, the genre of that 
you're hoping to work in. 

680
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,560
But, but when it comes to the 
singing, I think my point is, 

681
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:55,400
let me get to my point. 
My point is, Jessica, if you're 

682
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,200
going for an audition and 
singing isn't your strong point,

683
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,360
I know I'm just reiterating what
you've said, but at least sell 

684
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:02,440
it. 
Sell yourself. 

685
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,840
Yeah, if you're here, then do 
it. 

686
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,960
And then leave. 
Leave it up to the panel to 

687
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,800
decide whether they keep you or 
not. 

688
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,480
End of story. 
Yeah, and the same applies for 

689
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,800
dancing. 100 percent, 100% it 
does. 

690
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,760
But what I would say is that 
lots of the time you've got to 

691
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,720
understand that when you're 
coming in for the singing 

692
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,320
audition for a musical, you 
don't know. 

693
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,440
You never know what people are 
looking for, what they're 

694
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,200
wanting. 
If you are a very strong dancer,

695
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,840
I probably already know and have
guessed that you probably are 

696
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,240
not that strong a singer. 
Yes, triple threats, blah, blah,

697
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:35,960
blah. 
We're all stronger at something.

698
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,400
We are. 
And when someone comes in who is

699
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,960
a phenomenal dancer, you know 
they're not going to be a 

700
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,160
phenomenal singer. 
They could be a good singer, 

701
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,040
don't get me wrong, but like, so
when you come in, I might not 

702
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,200
need you to be a great singer. 
So do what you do. 

703
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,400
Don't apologize because you 
don't know what I'm looking for.

704
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,800
And in the same breath, I will 
also say when you have that 

705
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,200
feeling of coming in and that 
you're embarrassed to sing or 

706
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,040
you're kind of apologetic to be 
there, you're going to have to 

707
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,400
sing every single night with a 
microphone in front of an 

708
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,000
audience if you get this job. 
So if you don't want to sing, 

709
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,000
why you're here? 
Exactly. 

710
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,960
And I think if you're drawn to 
musical theatre where you're 

711
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,800
probably going to be singing and
dancing, then get those, get 

712
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,640
those singing lessons. 
And it's the confidence, it 

713
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,840
really is the confidence. 
Walk in that room and just sing 

714
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,960
because it's, it's not like 
dancing it dancing is easier to 

715
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,920
fake. 
We can all hear whether you are 

716
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,280
trained or not, a bad singer, 
and we can all hear because it's

717
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,720
your breath. 
We can all hear when you are 

718
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:38,960
nervous. 
Whereas a dancer you can cover a

719
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,440
lot of stuff up when you're 
nervous but voice it. 

720
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,280
I can hear it. 
The Terror, the. 

721
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,480
Terror. 
I can hear the terror in your 

722
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:54,800
voice grabbing on to what you 
said about when you first 

723
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,400
graduate and especially for us, 
and I think it is still the case

724
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,560
where lots of auditions say you 
need three years professional 

725
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,240
experience to apply for this 
job. 

726
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,400
I remember back in the day when 
I had first graduated, I wrote 

727
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,720
for a dance magazine called 
Dance Expression. 

728
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,280
I don't think it's around 
anymore, but I wrote about the 

729
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,760
audition process and how I found
it. 

730
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,720
So I had graduated from one of 
the best schools in the country 

731
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,120
and I could not go to 90% of the
auditions that were advertised 

732
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,760
in the stage or on 
londondance.com or in dance 

733
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,640
Europe. 
There was probably 90% of the 

734
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,800
auditions I couldn't go to. 
And it was because you had to be

735
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,560
as a man. 
You had to be at least 5 foot 9,

736
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,760
which I'm not. 
All the ballet companies I 

737
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,480
could, all the big companies, I 
could never go to the auditions 

738
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,920
you had to be. 
Then there were musicals that 

739
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,120
you probably had to be 23 and 
even taller. 

740
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,160
So there was a lot of auditions 
that I could never go to. 

741
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:54,240
And it's hard. 
And it's, that's why jumping 

742
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,160
onto what you said, you end up 
going to auditions that maybe 

743
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:58,480
you wouldn't have gone to 
before. 

744
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,720
Because like we we've discussed 
with casting, there's a hell of 

745
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,720
a lot more that goes into making
a decision than just does that 

746
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,560
person have a nice good foot and
do a double tour. 

747
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,480
No, everybody has a nice good 
foot and everybody can do a 

748
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,160
double tour. 
I need someone who is 5 foot 9 

749
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,200
and up. 
So I can't even get in the door 

750
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,920
to show them my left foot and my
dodgy double top. 

751
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,840
It's true, though. 
I mean, it's, it's, it can be 

752
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,840
very, very difficult to get into
the room. 

753
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,960
You know, although saying that I
once did when I was very, very 

754
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,800
young, there was an open call. 
I think it might even been for 

755
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,200
like a cruise ship or something 
completely the opposite of what 

756
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,640
I'd been training for. 
But I was like, I was young. 

757
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,400
It's an audition and I think 
they were lit. 

758
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,560
It felt it was a dance attic and
they were like, it felt like 

759
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,560
thousands of people and when and
then it got to a tap number and 

760
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,240
I just thought this is a 
complete waste of my time. 

761
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,360
So I just left. 
I was like, what's what's the 

762
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,880
point? 
They can't see me. 

763
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,400
There are far too many people 
here. 

764
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,520
I don't really want to be here. 
So I think it even even though, 

765
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,200
you know, we've we've been 
discussing, it probably makes 

766
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,480
sense to audition for lots and 
lots and lots of different 

767
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,960
things in the in the earlier 
portion of your career. 

768
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,880
I think it's also clever and 
smart and a good use of your 

769
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,760
time to understand where you 
want to be. 

770
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,360
Do have a five year plan, you 
know, because if your five year 

771
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,840
plan is to end up with a 
classical ballet company, then 

772
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,720
don't waste your time, you know,
auditioning for on your toes or 

773
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:38,040
auditioning for, you know, 
something that's really so far 

774
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,080
removed from what you want to do
awareness. 

775
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,960
I think we keep going back to 
awareness and that is key. 

776
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,120
And some, some people mature at 
a quicker rate than others. 

777
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,280
You know, I was a very, very 
naive young dancer and I just 

778
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,400
felt that merit would be 
rewarded, whether it's in a 

779
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,520
Class, A company, you know, a 
workshop, whatever. 

780
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,360
How naive of you. 
Didn't last long you know, so I 

781
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,640
think it is good advice to say 
you know awareness is key and 

782
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:12,760
figure out where you want to be.
No, I mean, I went to auditions 

783
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,720
that I mean there were auditions
that I wanted to go for like for

784
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,440
example, Chicago, Chicago in the
West End when it was at the 

785
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Adelphi. 
So we're also going back in time

786
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,280
a bit here. 
You had to be 23 and 5 foot 10. 

787
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,400
I think maybe 59510. 
I can't stretch. 

788
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:36,520
I was 19 and 5 foot 6, but I 
changed my CV and I sent my 

789
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,920
stuff off and I went to that 
audition I went through. 

790
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,160
So it was back in the day when 
you used to also do it on the 

791
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,560
stage. 
So I was on the Adelphi Chicago.

792
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:49,040
I mean, it's a cool experience. 
I was on the Adelphi stage with 

793
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,600
the scenery behind me and you 
know, this is very chorus line. 

794
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,160
They're sat in the auditorium 
and blah, blah, blah, blah. 

795
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,200
We do a big dance thing and they
teach. 

796
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,320
It's probably all that jazz. 
I can't really remember, but I'm

797
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,360
sure it's all that jazz and they
do a cup and I got kept. 

798
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,920
I was shocked out of like I was 
like, what? 

799
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,240
I'm so obviously 5 foot 6, like 
come on. 

800
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,840
So we all had to go out to the 
foyer of the theatre and then 

801
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,360
people come in one by one to 
sing. 

802
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,160
That's scary, standing on the 
stage and singing instead of 

803
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,640
just in a studio and singing to 
the oh, scary. 

804
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,480
Anyway, so I come on stage and I
go over to the pianist to give 

805
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,640
my music and I hear this. 
Paul, before you start, we know 

806
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,480
you're too short and you're too 
young, but we thought you did a 

807
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,800
really good audition. 
We just wanted to be able to 

808
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,880
have this moment to say to you 
personally. 

809
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,280
It was really nice to see you. 
You have not got the job. 

810
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,600
And did you have to sing? 
Did they still want you to? 

811
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,560
No. 
No, no, no, no. 

812
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,280
I didn't sing. 
No, no. 

813
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:49,160
No. 
Can you imagine? 

814
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,160
You're not. 
Going to have the job now, sing 

815
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:58,160
Good morning. 
So yeah, literally I was. 

816
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,400
I was called out straight away. 
But that's, but I I would 

817
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,920
consider, I'm not sure how you 
felt immediately afterwards, but

818
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,440
you know in hindsight what a 
positive experience to be, 

819
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,480
especially to be on the stage. 
I mean, I've had much worse 

820
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,760
experience. 
You know, it's funny, I've I 

821
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,360
also, I think I've mentioned 
this before, but I also, I was 

822
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,600
invited to a private audition 
for Chicago and it was at 

823
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,560
Pineapple at one of the studios 
at the very, very top. 

824
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,160
But it was with Anne Reinkin and
she was in the room delivering 

825
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,440
the choreography. 
But it's one of those I should 

826
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,160
have never have got. 
I'm so thrilled that I did to 

827
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,440
have been in the room with her. 
But I am classically trained and

828
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,560
it's not a singing lesson in my 
life really. 

829
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,840
So why? 
I thought because I was invited,

830
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,440
I felt obliged that I should go,
thinking in my naivety. 

831
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,080
Well, if they've asked me to go,
it's because. 

832
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480
They've heard of me. 
They want to see me, which 

833
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,560
they've heard of me. 
I was a body double for and 

834
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,960
Catherine Zeta Jones an 
entrapment. 

835
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:58,960
So to be in the room was 
phenomenal. 

836
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,800
But obviously I got cut because 
that was not part of my journey.

837
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,440
But at the time I invested a lot
of energy in it because they'd 

838
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,680
invited me. 
But I wish I'd had just had a 

839
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,000
little bit more of awareness to 
say to myself, this is not your 

840
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,520
path. 
But now in hindsight, it was an 

841
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,560
exciting moment. 
I didn't get all bells and 

842
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,520
whistles and the stage like you 
did, but I at least got a 

843
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,600
glimpse. 
And to be in the room with a 

844
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,040
magnificent, you know, icon of 
of stages screen. 

845
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,560
So it was well worth it. 
But I mean, going from that, 

846
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,200
actually, if you are invited to 
audition and you're not going, 

847
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,280
if you are sick, if you, if you 
are going to go in, then you 

848
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,800
wake up on the morning and you 
can't go, whatever it is, please

849
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,320
call in, please call, please 
e-mail. 

850
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,280
Please do what you can to 
contact that theatre, that 

851
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,600
company, that production, 
whatever it is, your agent, 

852
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,640
whatever it is, do your best to 
try and contact them because it 

853
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,520
can be a black mark on your name
if you just don't turn up. 

854
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,800
We have printed out your CVI 
know it doesn't, it doesn't take

855
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,480
any effort, but like you know, 
we've printed out your CV. 

856
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,320
We have created this audition 
with 20 people and one of those 

857
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,520
people was supposed to be you. 
You haven't turned up and we 

858
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:08,720
don't know that you haven't 
turned up. 

859
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:10,080
Maybe you had a legitimate 
reason. 

860
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,400
Please tell us like you would a 
job, you wouldn't just not turn 

861
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,480
up to your job. 
But also, you know, maybe person

862
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,240
#21 could have been called in 
instead if you'd have you know, 

863
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,680
obviously if you've if you've if
you don't have much time, it's 

864
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,160
literally, you know, an hour 
before and you're vomiting 

865
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,440
everywhere. 
You know, whatever, like 

866
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,200
whatever the. 
It's coming up with. 

867
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Whatever the reason, but if you 
know, or if you know you're not 

868
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,480
going to turn up, then give 
somebody else the potential 

869
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,560
opportunity to to to be invited 
to that private audition. 

870
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,040
Yeah. 
But I mean, I think, you know, 

871
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,920
when we're young, we don't 
really think about those things,

872
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,840
do we? 
But I think it's good to, again,

873
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,960
to have good etiquette and be 
aware of what you take into the 

874
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,320
studio that's outside of those 
dance girls. 

875
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,640
You know your personable skills 
and your your interaction with 

876
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,640
the people that are making those
decisions. 

877
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,640
The standing at the side quietly
waiting for your turn. 

878
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,280
The ask a question. 
If you need to ask a question. 

879
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,080
Don't ask a question just to get
noticed. 

880
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,760
The all of that kind of 
etiquette stuff that we know 

881
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,440
from taking open class or you 
know, from your education. 

882
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,280
Keep that there. 
Remember it? 

883
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:20,120
Jessica. 
So I just wanted to spend the 

884
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,920
last bit of this podcast talking
a little bit openly about 

885
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:30,360
failure. 
I know that I have had a / 20 

886
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,480
years career in this industry 
and I'm very happy and it's been

887
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,600
through hard work also, right 
place, right time, you know, all

888
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,200
that kind of stuff that make a 
career. 

889
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,560
However, that does not take away
from the fact that I've had 

890
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,720
loads of rejection and I've had 
loads of bad experiences. 

891
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,240
Like I mentioned earlier, there 
is a company I've written to so 

892
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,960
many years in a row for every 
single one of their productions,

893
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,560
I've applied to them to go for 
an audition and I've never been 

894
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,640
invited to their auditions. 
I've never had a reply to my 

895
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,920
e-mail. 
And that's from someone who has,

896
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,480
you know, over 8 musicals on 
their CV who has loads and loads

897
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,760
of experience. 
So I also am also still getting 

898
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,920
rejection to this day. 
I think we have to normalize the

899
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,600
the rejection. 
And you need to realize that all

900
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,280
these people that you look up 
to, all the prima ballerinas, 

901
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,880
all the leads and musicals, all 
the people who are in the chorus

902
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,640
of a musical, all of them have 
gone to auditions and got to 

903
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,240
know. 
All of them have applied to 

904
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,160
auditions and not been called 
into that audition. 

905
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,680
I can put my hand in my heart 
and say I have written to every 

906
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:39,720
single dance agency in Europe 
and I have never got a reply. 

907
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:43,560
When I first graduated, I was on
an agent in an agency called 

908
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:49,480
Reanimators, which was a ballet 
heavy freelance dance agency. 

909
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,280
I was kind of like a niche in 
the market because there wasn't 

910
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,840
anyone really representing 
freelance ballet contemporary 

911
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,720
dancers. 
I don't know when that company 

912
00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,480
closed, but they're not around 
anymore and I was with them for 

913
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,960
a year. 
I worked with Matthew Bourne and

914
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,920
then didn't seem the point in 
keeping them because my 

915
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,400
contracts were always like long 
contracts. 

916
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,240
I wasn't needing them for short 
gigs because I was with Tiffany 

917
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:14,320
for a long time, I was with Matt
for long contracts. 

918
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,000
I wasn't looking for these small
gigs. 

919
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,280
So I left that agency. 
Since then I have written to 

920
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:25,320
every single dance agency in 
London, in Denmark, in European 

921
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,240
based agencies that look after 
people from multiple countries. 

922
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,880
Never once have I had a reply. 
Ever. 

923
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:33,680
Why? 
I mean, why? 

924
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:37,440
What's the logic behind that? 
Do you think they just think 

925
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,040
they have a small pool of people
that they just like to work with

926
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,560
and they're not willing to 
entertain? 

927
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:48,080
I mean, what I can see is that 
the ballet dancers who are 

928
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,640
represented by agencies are your
people who are stars. 

929
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,280
They're the people who seem to 
have representation and I don't 

930
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,280
know if they think that because 
I have ballet on my seat, 

931
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,360
because I'm a ballet dancer, 
that they I'm putting myself up 

932
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,360
on that level, which I am not. 
I know I am not silver GM or go 

933
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,760
to Bole. 
I, I know this, but I don't know

934
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,840
if they think that maybe I'm 
trying to compare myself to 

935
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,440
them. 
I don't know. 

936
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,760
I will say though, that I have 
been to castings when they need 

937
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,600
a ballet dancer, a freelance 
ballet dancer. 

938
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:29,600
And 99% of the time when I've 
gone for these TV or film or or 

939
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:33,480
TV like an advertising campaign 
when they've needed a specific 

940
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,600
ballet dancer, I have lost the 
job to someone who is not a 

941
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:44,960
ballet dancer because I don't 
look like a male ballet dancer 

942
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,840
in their eyes, you know what I 
mean? 

943
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,120
They're looking for someone who 
is probably 6 foot broad 

944
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,920
shoulders and looks like a man. 
And that's what those 

945
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,360
advertising campaigns, those TV 
commercials, those whatever it 

946
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,960
is, see as a ballet dancer. 
And I don't know if the agencies

947
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,120
are kind of the same that they 
don't know where to place me. 

948
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,240
I have no idea. 
But I would just wanted to share

949
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:10,360
that because I think it's 
important to be open about not 

950
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,480
getting jobs. 
Definitely. 

951
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,960
And I think if you're in this 
business and you know you're not

952
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,720
prepared to be rejected, then 
you're going to you're going to 

953
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:25,440
struggle because for dancers, 
for performers at our stage in 

954
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,720
our careers, we've had a very 
fruitful career. 

955
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:33,680
But that's because we're older. 
You know, we've also had a lot 

956
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,040
of rejection. 
It's just part and parcel. 

957
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,880
And I think some things you'll 
be devastated over are some 

958
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,480
things you won't care so much. 
And I think when you look back, 

959
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,640
you'll realize, you know, you 
were upset at the time over 

960
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,440
something, but actually, it 
would have never have fulfilled 

961
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,800
you anyway. 
You know, all sorts of different

962
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,480
scenarios that have, you know, 
kind of weave through, you know,

963
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,720
one's career. 
It's unrealistic to think that 

964
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,640
every audition or casting that 
you walk into, whether you've 

965
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,120
been invited or not, it's 
unrealistic to think that it's a

966
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,080
yes every single time. 
I can't. 

967
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,560
I don't think I know one thing. 
We know a lot of phenomenal 

968
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,280
performers and I don't think any
single one of them have had such

969
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,160
an exceptional, rewarding career
in terms of yes to everything. 

970
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,480
We all go through ups and downs 
and I think you just have to be 

971
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,360
again, self aware, Monitor, 
monitor Why? 

972
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,960
I mean, I, I had a very 
interesting experience where I 

973
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,520
was invited, I was invited to 
audition for a company that I 

974
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,400
was actually working for in a 
different production to be seen 

975
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,640
for a role in a, in a different 
production, but within the same 

976
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,560
company set up. 
And you know, so obviously I 

977
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,920
knew all the panel. 
I knew, have I knew, knew most 

978
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:55,560
people taking the audition, very
friendly, very familiar. 

979
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,040
And I did the audition and which
I was personally invited to. 

980
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,040
And then I think it was in the 
middle of the summer, and I'd 

981
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,400
actually changed my travel plans
to come back for this audition. 

982
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,680
It was a full day. 
As you do, as you do. 

983
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:11,880
Yeah, as you do. 
And then there was a couple of 

984
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,840
weeks because it was summer. 
So I anticipated, you know, 

985
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,080
hearing in a couple, you know, a
fortnight or whatnot. 

986
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,840
But when I finally heard that I 
didn't get the role. 

987
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,520
It was a very generic, this is 
how long ago it was. 

988
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,920
It was a very generic in the 
mail. 

989
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,320
Thank you for auditioning, but 
no thanks. 

990
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,560
Thanks, but no thanks. 
And I was furious because the 

991
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,920
lack of respect, not only had I 
been invited to be in that room,

992
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:45,520
the, the very least the audition
panel or person or whoever, you 

993
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,520
know, could have said thank you.
We know that we, you know, we 

994
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,080
know, you know, we love you as a
performer because you're, we've 

995
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,960
currently employed you. 
However, for this specific role,

996
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,840
XY and Z didn't quite fit or 
suit. 

997
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:04,720
And so I brought them up on it. 
I sent an e-mail and, and I was 

998
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:08,080
young. 
I was young and and I was, I was

999
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,520
so angry. 
I think the lack of respect, and

1000
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,400
I think I didn't write in an 
angry way, certainly. 

1001
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,000
You know what you're like. 
You would have written my 

1002
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,960
passive aggressive. 
That wasn't, that wasn't my 

1003
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,520
intention, but I wanted to know 
why. 

1004
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,520
If you're going to invite me to 
an audition, make me dance all 

1005
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:32,160
day long, smiling at me all day 
long, and then you send me, you 

1006
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,000
know, a crappy generic letter. 
I was. 

1007
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:39,120
I was just, I was so angry and 
so I had a bit of to and fro 

1008
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,040
with the management until they 
finally said well This is why. 

1009
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,280
And I was like great, now I know
why brilliant makes total sense 

1010
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,680
to me and now I understand, but 
not telling me. 

1011
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,880
It's not even the why in that 
scenario, it's it's the fact 

1012
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,960
that I'm sorry you invited me, 
give me the and I work for you 

1013
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,440
currently because I've had the 
exactly the same thing other 

1014
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:07,040
places that somewhere that I'm 
working for right now and then 

1015
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,240
I'm going to audition and then I
get a generic e-mail back from 

1016
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:11,720
you. 
I'm like, bitch, come down the 

1017
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,560
corridor and talk to me. 
They're in the same building. 

1018
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:17,360
Yeah. 
It's it's. 

1019
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,360
That it's just it respect. 
It's a lack of respect. 

1020
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,640
Respect. 
Come on. 

1021
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,840
From me, my interpretation is 
this. 

1022
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,240
They've decided that they don't 
want you. 

1023
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,400
So you no longer math, you no 
longer matter and you no longer 

1024
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,760
count. 
And this this lack of respect 

1025
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,880
for dancers or performers, they 
don't feel it within themselves 

1026
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,560
that they need to merit giving a
reason because you've you've 

1027
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:44,760
been dismissed. 
We don't want you. 

1028
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,440
You can go. 
And I think that mentality has 

1029
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:53,760
not shifted because if it had 
shifted, we would all, for those

1030
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,560
who had been turned down, should
receive a personalized letter. 

1031
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,680
And I appreciate it takes time, 
but if we've taken the time to 

1032
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,240
step into the room and audition 
for you, the least you could do 

1033
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,640
if you're saying no is to say 
why. 

1034
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,080
Because actually, the people 
that you've cut, you've already 

1035
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,000
said something very nice to 
them. 

1036
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,080
Every audition I've been to, 
nearly every audition I've been 

1037
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,520
to within the past 10 years. 
I know before that was it a 

1038
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,200
different time and within the 
last 10 years when I've gone to 

1039
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,240
audition and people have been 
caught, there has been a Thank 

1040
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:27,360
you very much for coming. 
It was great to see you. 

1041
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,840
Sadly you guys, we will not be 
seeing more from you today. 

1042
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,920
Thank you very much About 
whatever they needed to say. 

1043
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:37,080
Those people don't need an 
e-mail. 

1044
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,960
They don't get an e-mail. 
They had a very nice speech 

1045
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,200
given to they've been caught. 
But those people who have then 

1046
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,000
stayed with you till 6:00 in the
evening, singing or doing solos 

1047
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,320
or doing Rep or whatever it is, 
the majority of places that I've

1048
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,320
auditioned don't even tell them 
that they haven't got the job. 

1049
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,560
Usually the people who get the 
job hear that they've got the 

1050
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,200
job, and the other people are 
just left in limbo. 

1051
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,720
Yeah, it's outrageous. 
It really isn't infuriating. 

1052
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:00,800
So there's not that many people 
because the cup people have 

1053
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,400
already been. 
Told yeah, the least you can do 

1054
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,800
for those people that you've 
kept all day long but still 

1055
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,720
deciding not to take it's it's 
just just have some common 

1056
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,800
decency and respect. 
But we're so replaceable. 

1057
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,400
I think that the problem is, is 
we're still very, very 

1058
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,000
replaceable as dances and 
casting is a whole other 

1059
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,600
discussion, but it's not, it's 
not always the best person for 

1060
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,720
the job that's selected anyway. 
So it's, it's, it's, it's a, 

1061
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:32,120
it's a minefield of power and 
ego, which is why auditioning is

1062
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,960
so intimidating for, for, for 
the, for the artist. 

1063
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,760
And I think you've just got to 
have a strong stomach for this 

1064
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,640
profession because there will be
a lot of rejection, but there 

1065
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:50,640
will also be many wonderful life
changing, in some cases, moments

1066
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,160
where it all makes it 
worthwhile. 

1067
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:59,520
But the journey, the journey is 
a tough journey and you just 

1068
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,200
have to be ready for that. 
And sadly, there's no getting 

1069
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,480
away from it. 
Auditions and castings are the 

1070
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,200
way to get a job in this 
industry. 

1071
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,040
And relationships, I think also 
building relationships. 

1072
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,720
Again, just a really fine final 
point. 

1073
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,960
You know, when I was growing up 
in this industry, being the 

1074
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:23,680
naive, you know, 17/18/19 year 
old, I hadn't really understood,

1075
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,480
you know, the importance of, of 
building professional 

1076
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,560
relationships because in my 
mind, if you're good enough, 

1077
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,600
you'll be rewarded. 
You know, that was, that was my 

1078
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,120
mentality. 
If you're good enough, you'll be

1079
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,840
rewarded, you know, so building 
positive professional 

1080
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,200
relationships, and I say 
positive rather than 

1081
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,200
manipulative because we all know
there are many manipulative 

1082
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,640
relationships within most 
professions. 

1083
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,920
And it's not exclusively, you 
know, to the dance world, but I 

1084
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,960
think, you know, if I'd have had
somebody in my earlier career, 

1085
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,720
you know, just just to say, you 
know, do you have a five year 

1086
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,480
plan or actually what kind of 
repertoire do you prefer to 

1087
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,240
dart? 
You know, some guidance rather, 

1088
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,120
because you do feel like you're 
just floating around for the 

1089
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,360
first few years after 
graduation, don't you? 

1090
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,040
I think in most cases, you know,
you know, unless you've 

1091
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,760
auditioned for a ballet company 
and you kind of set for life as 

1092
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,080
in. 
What audition are they? 

1093
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,800
You never do a audition again. 
20 years later, you know, you're

1094
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,080
still, yeah, you know those 
type. 

1095
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,040
And that can also happen in 
musical theatre. 

1096
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,880
You know, we've known people who
have been in Chicago for 20 

1097
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:25,920
years, who have been in Cats 
for, you know, 20 years. 

1098
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:27,520
You know, it can happen that way
too. 

1099
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,360
But I think it's good to have 
some awareness. 

1100
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,560
But it's also great to have a 
little bit of guidance in the, 

1101
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,400
in those early, early years. 
But we also have to take 

1102
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,200
responsibility, you know, for 
us, and now we have access to so

1103
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:41,520
much information. 
It's, you know. 

1104
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,680
There are podcasts there to 
listen to to help you. 

1105
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,160
We've. 
Got 3 You've got, you know, 

1106
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,040
three seasons to there's. 
No excuse, actually. 

1107
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,120
I just want to give a shout out 
to our dear friend Rebecca 

1108
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:53,840
Jackson. 
It's really Rebecca Williams, 

1109
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,400
but she'll always be Rebecca 
Jackson. 

1110
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,400
She's really getting in, getting
into the the episode. 

1111
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,400
So if she's listening, I just 
want to say hi, Rebecca. 

1112
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,280
She's loving them. 
And it was Rebecca's son who we 

1113
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,240
spoke about actually last year, 
who was in the snowman at the 

1114
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,200
Peacock Theatre. 
Yes, he wasn't. 

1115
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,520
He was fantastic. 
A little star. 

1116
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,240
Cheers, Becky. 
Cheers to Bex, lots of love. 

1117
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,280
Well, everybody, I hope that 
helped you. 

1118
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,040
I hope that discussion helped 
you and maybe you got an insight

1119
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:31,040
into, well, my dramatic 
experiences. 

1120
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,560
But yeah, I really hope that you
got something out of that 

1121
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,600
episode and took some little 
helpful hints from us. 

1122
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,360
Yeah, and as always, thank you 
so much for listening to another

1123
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,400
episode of Drinks at the Bar 
with Poppy and I. 

1124
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,360
And please, you know, don't be 
shy. 

1125
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:52,080
Do let your fellow dance mates 
know we're here so they can have

1126
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,640
a little listen and help support
our podcast. 

1127
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,960
That would be much, much 
appreciated. 

1128
01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:59,280
Yes, I could agree with you 
more. 

1129
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,880
Every recommendation from you 
guys really really helps spread 

1130
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,640
the gospel of Denise and Poppy. 
And our childhood traumas. 

1131
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,280
So on that note, Denise, thank 
you. 

1132
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,360
It's been fantastic again. 
Lots of love. 

1133
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,680
Love you lots. 
Take care everybody, Until next 

1134
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:14,800
time, bye.