Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is poor James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen, and
I am your host of Drinks at the Bar.
And today we are joined by the northern beauty that is Saran
Jones. Hi everybody, I'm Saran Jones,
director of the Dancer's Studio London, classical ballet teacher
and actor with the Royal Ballet. Former actress with Coronation
Street, Currently starring in Hostage, available on Netflix.
Sounds really random. I really like her nose.
Yeah, I think she's got a really interesting nose.
Anyway, here we will discuss everything from hearing
backstage stories, touring shenanigans to deep deep tish.
Issue. To deep tissue massages, to
deeper issues like body image training, the reality of being a
freelance dancer, and much more. With guest professionals, we are
here to share our knowledge, experience, and help you with
any questions or problems you may have.
About living on the old. I'm going to meet it about
living on the old Brompton Rd. with constant cycle of police
cars and an ambulance with guest professionals.
We are here to share our knowledge, experience, and help
with any questions or problems you may have about dance and
navigating the dance world. Hi love, how are we?
Hi, my darling, all good. Thank you.
How are things in Copenhagen? Everything that's good.
I just started my brand new class that I'm teaching at the
local musical theatre school. We have started doing a, a
ballet class, but based for people who are not ballet
dancers. Like it's especially created for
people who are not ballet dancers.
So it's, you know, people who who are musical theatre
performers. Basically it's a ballet ballet
class for professional dancers who are not ballet dancers.
That makes sense. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
So a safe space for people because lots of them want to do
ballet class, but they don't feel comfortable going to your
normal open class because they, yeah, they feel uncomfortable.
So we created a safe space for them and it's great.
It's really cool. I'm really happy with the
concept and how it's been received.
Well, Congrats. And it can be, you know, as we
know can be very intimidating walking into a ballet class with
ballet dancers. And if you're if you're
speciality is not classical ballet, but you still love
ballet or then you've created the perfect space and that
sounds, sounds marvellous. Yeah, so that that's a lot of
fun and I'm really happy to see if more people come next time.
And yeah, So what about you, sweetheart?
Well, we have finished the last time we were recording for the
end of season 2. I think I was finishing the
second round of Alice's Adventures with Royal Ballet.
So that was a great success. Lots of teaching during the
summer. Alan and I managed to squeeze in
a little holiday, which was wonderful and much needed.
And now we're back. I'm teaching the ballet
technical at the Opera House this weekend coming.
And then we have, we still have four other workshops on the
cards which will be announced, you know, closer to their, to
their dates. I saw you post that you're doing
La Filmagadde. That's right.
So that will be our next repertoire offering, which is in
October. So that's exciting.
Very exciting, very exciting. And it's also in line with the
programming at the Opera House, so you can also get the
opportunity to participate in the class with me and the
dancers Studio London, but also the the Royal Ballet performing
LAFY. So it's great.
So you can also go and watch and recognize the, the, the
repertoire that you would have done in class.
So it's great. And also unexpectedly, I have
two job offers, which we can, we can talk more about closer to
their dates, but I'll be back on stage with two different
productions with two different companies, which came fantastic
out of the blue. So and very welcome and very
exciting. So watch this space, yes?
I will just drop in a little story here about La Fumea Garde.
So when I was Aja so a junior associate of the War Ballet
school, before I went to White Lodge, I performed the chicken
dance from La Fumea Garde at a fashion show at London Zoo in
front of Princess Anne. I mean, that is all kind of
camp. I love it.
And I remember she came to meet us afterwards and we had been
given a present to give to her. What would it mean?
You know how it is like the organisers give you something
like please give this to her. And I was the one holding this,
you know, little, I don't know, paperchase bag.
And and she said, oh, what is it like a present say, oh, but what
is it? Fuck knows, bitch.
I don't know. Literally I just remember being
this little kid being like, I have no idea what to do at
present. It would have just been handed
to you, wouldn't it to? Handed by the powers that be to
like, give this to the member of royalty that's coming.
And then I get 20 questions asking what's inside the bag.
Just open it and I'm back on stage in 5 minutes.
For the second showing, open the bag I've.
Got to get this chicken costume back on all right, love.
Well, I have myself a lovely gin and tonic.
I feel like it's going to be the season of gin and tonics.
It absolutely is. I'm back on the G and TS myself
and it really is a new discovery because I was always a vodka
girl, as you well know, on tour. I was as.
Well, and I just think, you know, I just enjoy the medicinal
taste of of a GNT. It does feel like a grown up.
It feels like a classy, classic grown up drink.
It is because I always watch those like, I don't know, with
Ali Whitbeal or The Good Wife or whatever it is, You see these
people with the ice cube with their whiskey or whatever it is,
and I always want to be that person.
Yeah, but I hate the taste. I can't.
We sat there with the peanut colada.
But I feel like a gin and tonic is the closest I can get to
that. Yeah, I think, I feel, I think
that's why I enjoy it too. It feels the same way.
But don't get me wrong, you and I love Cosmopolitan for obvious
reasons. At the Soho Hotel.
Don't be giving away all of our secrets.
But yes, they make a fantastic cosmopolitan.
But yeah, there's something about a gin and tonic that is
just feels quite classic, classy and for the older ballerina.
Well, cheers, love, cheers. Cheers.
Sweetie. Before we delve into our subject
today, yes, I wanted to quickly discuss something that was in
the news during the summer. I want to say it was August
regarding the Royal Ballet School no longer having kids
like at the boarding school part of in years 7 and 8 so ages 11
to 13 ish which was announced and thoughts.
Right. Well, when I first read that
there would be these changes, my immediate response, and I'm just
going to be completely honest. I'm speaking on behalf of
myself. This is entirely my own opinion.
I I felt disappointed because my immediate mindset was why change
something so dramatically that has delivered exceptional dances
over the last, what, 70 years if it.
Ain't broke, why fix it? Exactly, It was a little bit
shocking to to see such a change, but then I started to
think about it and. And I can only assume that with
the way we deal with the complexities of safeguarding and
this is also in direct response to some of the the notes that
were part of this. Press release or Yeah.
Yeah, press release. You know that students at that
age, you know, leaving home and, and being, you know, in full
time tuition, vocational training 11 to 13 is highly
there was an insinuation that it can be highly stressful and
difficult to navigate. So I and I do understand that
the way we have to be responsible for students has
shifted from when we were in training.
We've discussed this many times through previous seasons
episodes. So there's a huge pressure on
the faculty of these junior ballet schools that are taking
care of these of these students of this age group.
So I understand the pressures, but part of me is still
wondering if it's the right decision.
I mean, I'm torn. Yes, Sam.
Also, there's a part of me because of course there'll be
financial implications if you're basically saying we're going to
lose 2 years of a five year program if you're lucky to get
through the full. Basically, JA's continues.
You know what I mean? Those those hubs continue.
Well, exactly. And so then my mind shifted to,
if you're not isolated, to having students directly at the
Lower Royal Ballet schools. So, you know, 11 to 13 year
olds, you can access the entire country by offering associate
classes. So there definitely appears to
me to be a business model behind the reasoning.
Oh. I didn't think about it like
that. OK.
A lucrative business model. I would say there has to be more
reason behind it than just safeguarding.
I mean like this might be quite virtual conversation.
My issue was that they're in a financial place to OK, our kids
are not going to be borders. We're going to have these local
hubs. Yeah, like we do Birmingham, Jas
London, Jas, Manchester, whatever it is, they're going to
keep these local hubs going so we can teach Year 7 and 8
locally and then they come to White Lodge.
Then they enter this. Exactly.
Yeah, My issue was that because they're they are funded by the
government, they can do that. Your other schools, your
Elmhursts, your arts educationals, your Sylvia
Youngs, well, they're, they can't afford to do that.
They, they, you pay to go to those schools.
Whether you get a grant from somewhere that pays your fees,
it is fees based. They don't have these local
hubs. So do they end up looking like
the bad guys because they still are forcing their kids to come
to year 7 and 8 at a boarding school?
Whereas the Royal, this is not a bitch about the Royal because
it's just a discussion, but it's just they are in a position
where they can sit on their high horse and say your kids can stay
at home because we have government funding.
They don't need to come to boarding school.
But all the other professional vocational schools, because
there are more than just the Royal, cannot do that
financially. They have to have these kids
there because there's a great expense of being able to teach a
kid in Bradford. You know, having a kid in
Bradford, one in Newcastle, one in Sandhurst, one in Essex, one
in Bournemouth, all in the same year group, that's an impossible
feat if you don't have government funding in a local
hub. So my only worry was that the
other educational establishments end up looking like the bad guy
because they still are forcing the kids to go to boarding
school. That was my worry.
So in theory, they're losing 2 years worth of school fees,
right? Which which which is why it led
me to believe that these programs, these associate
programs must be generating money across the country because
they have to make up these school fees.
And my understanding, I mean, and of course we could be
talking completely nonsense. We're not.
We're not.
No, no, we're discussing something that we've seen in
the. News we're intrigued and we
yeah, we're we're trying to understand the reasoning but.
And what we've been told as members of the public.
Exactly, exactly. And I would think that you have
a restricted amount of students that you can you can take in per
year for the school. Now if you eliminate those first
two years for whatever reasons, safeguarding or or not as the
focus, if you expand throughout the rest of the country, you can
have much larger groups at that year group level, which for me
would then generate more income than having those high school
fees, but having a small amount of intake.
Does that make sense? Yes, yes, yeah.
Because obviously the dormitory for the the year sevens fits 15
people. Right.
That is the year group it it can only be 15.
Right. So you can have that amount
paying school fees, yeah, or you can have 200 plus paying less,
of course, because they're not boarding and they're not having
full time training. But if you multiply the amount
of the expansion of the amount of students, you can almost
generate the same or if not more, get Carol Vorderman.
To. Discuss these figures.
It's just because obviously, you know, the Royal Ballot School
says what they need to tell the press and the majority of people
who are listening to what the Royal Ballot School are saying
are prospective young dancers wanting to go.
We're speaking about it as, you know, 2EX professional dancers
or two teachers and you know, we think about it in a very
different way. My theft.
One of my thoughts was also all the teachers that work at that
school. Suddenly they now have two year
groups that they don't have to teach anymore.
Are they getting their wages cut?
Gosh, I don't know my hope. Is all the academic teachers now
don't have year 7 and 8? Yes.
So are they now working less hours?
Well, you can only reabsorb so much, can't you, from the loss
of work. So my hope that at least the
teaching faculty, the classical ballet or the dance faculty, I
hope will be kind of re, there's a re blend into the structure so
that they don't lose part of this salary.
I'm just worried about all of these.
People like yeah, yeah. Losing money because, you know,
they're all free. Well, not freelance.
They have a job there. But you know what I mean.
They're they're all teachers. Are they?
Yeah. It's it.
There was a lot of questions that came up in my mind as
someone who is a teacher who goes to different schools and
stuff that suddenly came up in my head like.
Yes. What about this, this, this and
this and this made me want to sit down with the people and ask
these questions because those are the questions that I was
interested in. As you know, because I'm not a
parent, that side of it doesn't interest me at all.
It's the other side of it that interest me.
Yeah, it's very interesting. And because it is a big dramatic
shift and I think, you know, it's normal to have a reaction
of to be a little bit defensive of trying to protect something
that's been of. Course.
So important to classical ballet, you know, for for the
last 70 years. So it is an enormous shift.
But, you know, I also trust that the people that have made these
decisions. Of course.
You know, know what know what they're doing.
But and and we will understand more as more information is
released. I mean, it does open a lot of
questions in my head regarding these local hubs and the
different training facilities they'll have around the country.
Because for example, for me, I was a London Junior Associate,
so London was my closest world ballet school hub, but that's an
hour away from me, from my parents house.
So would I be having to go to my local school and then travel an
hour up to London every day for my ballet class?
Like I'm not sure how it's going to work because obviously they
can't have hubs in every single town in the whole of the UK.
So yeah, it's a lot of questions, a lot of questions.
Do they have their academics at these local hubs as well?
But still, my parents live in well lived in Sandhurst.
So that means I would have had to drive, drive to school for an
hour every single day. Well, then I prefer to be at a
boarding school because it's, yeah, because they can't have
that many local schools. Like if there's one in
Manchester, one in Birmingham, all of this kind of stuff, like
you were probably at least an hour away from your local hub.
Lots and lots and lots of questions.
And obviously we all know more as more as releasing to the
press. It's just, it's very interesting
and like you just said, we all it, it's a change, it's new.
We all have a million questions. So yeah, I am excited to learn
more and hear more as they release more details.
And also also just before we move on, I, I also had a moment,
you know, because we do have mutual friends with children and
of that age group that would, would potentially go into the
year, the first two years of White Lodge.
And I think if you've had this dream of, you know, being a
first and second year, 3rd, 4th, 5th year white, that dream has
now been snatched away from you. And I did kind of feel a little
bit sad for those kids that are kind of almost at the entry
point age. And now that opportunity has
been taken away. I completely agree, but I think,
you know, gratefully, kids adapt pretty quickly and, and if there
are other programs and the associates and whatnot, then
they'll have other opportunities.
But that did cross my. That was one of the first things
I did think no, but yeah, changes, changes are coming.
Whilst we're discussing this, actually I have to mention the
Times article that the title was The Royal Ballet School chief
says plus size dances are the future.
And it was, I think it was Daily Mail, it was the Times.
But the Daily Mail then shares it and is on Instagram.
It's all social media all over the place.
And I found this headline was crazy because it's not what he
was saying at all. He was not saying plus sized
dancers are the future. Everybody in ballet companies
are going to be plus size. And obviously it was one of
these headlines to try and grab the attention.
But the majority of people, sorry, read a headline and then
run with it and then start social media saying yeah, there
needs to be more plus sized people in ballet world and all
this kind of stuff. Even the Royal Ballet School
boss says that it should be. That's not what the article was
about at all. The article was about getting
away from ultra thin dancers and talking about being athletes and
being muscular and trying to get away from this stick thin
ascetic and talking about being an athlete, being a sportsman,
not plus size people. Yeah.
And it was just something that really struck me because, you
know, there were suddenly loads of people talking about there's
a need for big ballerinas and that's not what he was talking
about at all. And like social media, does
social media around with it and. It's very layered, isn't it?
It's very layered. And I think, yeah, they
absolutely did sensationalize the the headline, of course,
because a sensible conversation is not interesting to the
general public, is it? You're not going to pick up a
newspaper to read a very logical, sensible exploration of
something to do with the arts, You know?
So it did grab our attention around the world, the dance
world particularly. Lots of intrigue.
But you're right in that there has to be an exploration in
shape and fitness and athleticism.
Because there is no, I'm sorry, it drives me insane because
there is no one saying there needs to be plus sized triple
jump people in the Olympics. There needs to be plus size
marathon runners. There needs to be plus size 100
meter runners, plus size hurdlers.
No, because you can't do the job.
Yes. Because if you actually did the
fitness and the rehearsals and the exercise needed to be able
to do the 100 meters at the same speed as Sally Gunnell, you
would not be a bigger person because you would be in shape,
because you'd be doing exercise. And that is what the Internet
has ran with, this idea that we need bigger people in ballet and
no, we need to steer away from anorexia.
That's what the conversation is about, not about bringing in
being inclusive to bigger people.
That's not what that's the wrong conversation.
Yes. And I think there needs to be
clarity on those simultaneous, multiple conversations because
we can talk about inclusivity within the dance world.
And thankfully, there are more and more options that are being
offered for dancers to explore Classical ballet, contemporary
jazz, tap, no matter you know what shape or size a. 100%.
But, you know, we, we're still having to fight to be seen as
athletes in the dance world. And like you say, you know, if
you're preparing for the, you know, the Olympic Games,
nobody's saying, you know, campaigning to have plus sized,
you know, sprinters or whatever the, the, the genre.
It's an easy, it's an easy grab to say, you know, ballet should
be in particular all inclusive, but it's just such a redundant
conversation. Exactly.
It's a redundant conversation because yeah, I, I can talk
about this for hours and we're not going to.
But it was just that headline that I saw over the summer was
just. And it sparks up so much
conversation and so much hate and so much yeah, which is just
ridiculous. And I think, you know, if you're
not, I imagine if you're not part of the dance world or you
have very little to no knowledge of the dance world, particularly
with classical ballet, because that's the reference that was
being discussed. I think if you read that
headline, you would absolutely think, yeah, why can't ballet be
for everybody? Because you're not understanding
the nuances and, and the, the complexities of the training and
that professional career, you know, we can give many, many
reasons why it wouldn't work for a plus size dancer.
To be a professional ballerina in a big ballet company.
To do ballet for fun and for fitness.
Is different absolutely at a professional level and to give
one example who's going to OK, if you have a plus size dancer,
you're going to need a plus size partner to work with a plus
sized dancer, you know so and I think as a male dancer, my first
reaction was well, fair enough, let's have this conversation and
start employing, you know, plus sized dancers.
But you know, we have to. Let's do a sit lift.
Let's do a precise SO. Which is why for me it's just a
redundant conversation and and not the intended conversation.
But yes, sensationalism at its best and and it's just such a
time wasting conversation. Let's have a discussion about
eating disorders, or let's have a discussion about compression
within a ballet company and access to.
Because that's what the guy, the guy, that's what the the head of
the Royal Ballet School was trying to start a discussion
about. And because of the the headline
and the, like you said, sensationalism, it gets drawn to
another conversation, another subject.
But he is an intelligent person having trying to start a
conversation about saying your kids are safe here.
The eating disorders and the anorexia and all of this kind of
stuff that has been a massive problem at ballet schools around
the world for the past 50 years. Who knows how long is something
we are aware of and something that we are actively doing
something about. That's what he was saying, but
straight away journalism does what journalism loves to do and
goes yay obese people can come to the ballet school now.
That's not what the conversation was about anyway.
That was a random side note I felt had to be discussed because
it's been in the press a lot. Exactly.
Warranted. So today we are diving deeper
into the world of teaching and teachers.
Oh God, she's going to take us on the trauma train again.
Here we go, bottle up. No, but there are some things
that I did want to talk about. We've we've spoken about class
and taking class and teaching before, but it's a subject that
I feel like can be discussed in deeper in depth.
So let's start with open class. I have been lucky enough to be
free the past couple of weeks and I have taken some open
classes and then taught some open classes and I have done
that over my entire career. But I took an open class
recently and I was kind of shocked by the experience by
something that happened in the class.
OK, more info. Okay so I go into the class at
an establishment that is only there for open class.
So I'm not joining a company class or I'm not joining an
education. This establishment is only open
class and I walk in and obviously there's some people
that I can. You can just tell by the energy
in the room. There's some people who are
there for the first time. There's some people who are
there every day. There's some people who are
there maybe twice a week. You can just tell by the energy
of the room and how they talk to each other and how they talk to
the teacher and all that kind of stuff.
I had never taken this teacher's class before.
Yes and no expectations. Yeah, no, no expectations.
And I don't feel the need to walk in and say hi.
I find my place at the bar and that's it.
That's all I need to do. If there's someone I recognize,
maybe I wave across the room, but I'm not here for a chin wag.
We can do that afterwards. So it gets to the time to start
the class. Like I noticed the clock, like,
OK, so it's now just push my stuff to the side, get ready.
Like, cool. No one's talking.
No one's, no one's searching an exercise.
It's like, this is a bit strange.
Like, OK, now it's one minute past the time that we're
supposed to start. Music starts.
The music just starts. I was like, what are we doing?
And everybody starts doing this warm up facing the bar.
It's like, OK, like I've been in company classes before where the
teacher goes and your own plies go completely fine.
In a company class situation, completely fine.
Yeah, maybe even in an open class, if you say and guys just
do your own plies or do your own port of bra, completely fine.
But nothing was said. There was no welcome.
There was no, there was no nothing.
Pianist randomly starts playing and I notice everybody facing
the bar. OK, So I'm like, OK, well, I'm
just going to face the bar then, but I'm facing the bar so I'm
looking at the wall. I can't see anybody so I can't
copy, you know what I mean? So I'm like, well, I'm not going
to spend this whole warm up with my head turned around trying to
find someone. I'm just going to do what I feel
like I need before I plie. So I do this.
I do, you know, you push over Demi point, you're tondu flex,
whatever. It is a normal amount of time
for a face in the bar exercise port a bra, port a bra, maybe a
rising first call. The music keeps going and I look
around me, everyone starts doing the plies.
So then I'm like, OK, so I also have to make up my own plie
exercise. So I do plies, do the whole
thing. Then I hear over the across the
room a correction on the exercise.
No, we do a port, a bra back and forth or whatever it was.
It's like how, how on earth are we supposed to know what the X
what we were supposed to do? And forth, turn around, second
sign, I'm guessing. OK, cool.
We're also still doing this and then finish.
Then the teacher then goes cool so tondos we then go and then it
starts becoming a normal class. And I thought this was firstly
very weird but also incredibly rude and unprofessional.
Sorry I think it's incredibly rude and unprofessional.
I've paid money to be here and the 1st 10 minutes of this hour
and a half, what is it, 90 minutes, a 90 minute class?
The 1st 10 minutes I've choreographed and I've made-up
my own exercise and I've paid to be here.
What on earth is going on? Whether you have made-up an
exercise that this is my warm up and this is what we do in my
class and this is my plies, but we don't know this.
This is an open class. You can do that if you're a
director of a company and you teach class every Monday and
Wednesday and you walk in the room, oh, Damien's teaching this
week and Damien goes, hi guys, morning.
We're doing my warm up or we're doing my pliers.
Fine. We all know that we are all
members of this company. And also you have even said
hello and said we are doing my pliers.
Firstly, this is an open class situation.
You don't know, as a teacher who is here and prime example, I'm
somebody who hasn't taken an open class in years and I've
never taken your open class and I'm paying exactly the same as
everybody else here. So why am I?
You know what I mean? I thought this, I think this was
absolutely ridiculous to me and unprofessional and I was
shocked. Yeah, I agree with you in in
everything you've just expressed.
I was nodding all the way through with and actually
getting quite worked up because you know, whether you're a
teacher or not, I think as we are both teachers, we, we have a
clearer understanding of, of the structure of giving a class.
But that is also common sense. If you're working in an
establishment that focuses on the drop in class market, you
are going to have a different audience every class.
Yes, you may have regulars, but you have to assume as you would
with the performance, that this is the first time that
participants have seen these exercises.
Therefore, you should at least at the very least say hi to
everyone who's new here. We usually do a regular warm up.
I'll just go through it really really quickly, but please
follow on if if if this is new for you of the class.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with that set up because
it's not ideal, but it's the least you could do.
The least that teacher could. Have done and also start by
saying hi welcome. It goes directly into Pleiades.
Yeah, yeah, all of that. And also, I think I mean what it
immediately tells me is that that particular teacher is not
engaged in that class. They're relying on habit and not
reinforcing positive, a positive teaching experience because
actually that particular teacher hasn't taught anything in that
particular class. So I would have already wanted
to have walked out by that point.
But you've paid, you've paid and you've also programmed your day
based on that class. So you've all, you know, you've
not just ran, you know, just randomly walked in off the
street. You've arrived, you've made a
conscious decision to arrive, be prepared, pay, warm up, be
present. So you've invested so much even
before the class. So then for that to happen, I
would have been very angered. I was furious by.
That and and would have hoped. For some redemption within the
following exercises, it just felt.
Very to say old fashioned is wrong because I have never
experienced that. Even with horrible old fashioned
teachers, I've never experienced that.
But it just felt very much like you've come here.
I'm an inconvenience to you because I don't come every day.
You should know my exercise. Like who on earth do you think
you are? I've come to do.
Your class. I'm paying you to teach me.
I'm paying you for the whole idea and concept behind what
that person did with the class was out of this world to me.
I did not understand what was going on.
Do you think perhaps? That it's a bit I'm too good for
this. Sorry to interrupt.
Oh really? It just, it just felt a little
bit like I'm too good for this. Gosh, then why be a teacher?
I mean, if you're too good for this then.
Bugger off, there's many people who would like to teach this
class and would do it better it sounds like.
Without any back story than other other than what you're
sharing now, it sounds like this person and correct me if I I
mean you, you might not even know either because you've only
been that one time. But if the teacher has been left
to his or her own devices and living in this microclimate of
delivering this particular class that they just they don't ever
evolve as a teacher. Does that make sense?
It does make sense, but. Knowing this establishment,
yeah, you get through your door a plethora of graduated, not
graduated professional, prima ballerina, whatever people
coming to your class. So as a teacher myself, I would
be inspired every single day. Yeah, to do my job.
Absolutely. It's not like this person is
stuck in the middle of nowhere teaching people who don't don't
want to be there and don't have an oust and talent OR whatever
it is like this person is in a phenomenal job.
Actually. Yeah, I was being too far too.
Generous with I was trying to be devil's advocate actually and
just trying try and understand why a person in that position
and would be so terrible at doing the one thing they're
there to do. It was a shock that.
Someone started their class like that because as we all know, and
this has nothing to do with the dance world, it's to do with
life. First impressions matter.
Oh absolutely. And that teacher's first
impression was, well, I'm not coming back to this class ever
again, even though I ended up having quite a good class.
But that's because in my mindset, I had already gone
well, I'm not using this teacher again.
Let's get out of this class what I can.
I ended up, you know, I'm not wasting my money.
I'm still going to work hard. I'm going to do my tondos.
I'm going to do whatever I had made the decision in my head
that well, this is not worth my money.
I'm not going back here again. Goodness, Well, and.
So tell me about the rest of the class.
How did the rest of the class pan out?
I mean the rest of the class was.
Completely fine. The bar was fine.
What do you mean by fine? It was.
It was good. It was.
Complete.
It was a fine class, nothing to write home about.
It was fine. However we got to the adage in
the centre and people who are non dancers who have never done
a dance class before that might be listening to this.
Just skip forward on Spotify maybe a minute because you maybe
not understand this, but when you demonstrate, when I
demonstrate and what I feel that most people do when they
demonstrate, they either kind of sing the steps or count the
steps in time to the music so that the dancers not just know
that it's a developer to the front, but they know it's a
develop and extend Devon. Now we go through the so you
know the the feeling, the timing, the musicality of what
we're about to do. This teacher went so we're going
to develop into the front. And then there's a passe.
There's a promenade. You arrive in Ashley Quasi.
You play, you're part of Beret. Then you do a tomboy on the left
foot and you develop into the 2nd and you chasse through and
you go play a relevant and you down and then you do a pure
front 4th arms go up to the fifth, you land in the 4th and
then you repeat on the left. So to me that firstly is
guesswork, but by the way it was spoken, it felt kind of not
polynesy, but like a little bit paste and develop your passe,
your promenade around and a plie part of beret re la Fey and a
chasse and 4th and a pirouette. It felt kind of paced adage like
a let's get going. That's what we were told.
Oh, and there was one part they went promenade around changes
you releva, you plie, you part of beret and then you chasse
para whatever it was. So I then assumed, obviously, by
the way it was spoken about that that promenade round and the arm
coming up was then slow because you took more time on it.
Music starts and it's dev le pay to the front and extend and and
you'd literally got dev pay to the front promenade round.
How am I supposed to know that that promenade, that devil pay
takes 8 counts unless you tell me it takes 8 counts?
Or if you Can't Sing and you can't count, which is completely
fine, we're all different, then let's mark it together with the
music. But this teacher then got
frustrated that none of us knew the musicality of the exercise.
And again, I'm like, sorry to say, the customer is always
white. But if everybody in the room
doesn't understand, then maybe we're not the problem and also
nobody is. Benefiting from that whole
experience, the pianist hasn't really got well unless they've
been working together for years. And.
But Even so, it's unfair. Help the pianist help the.
Pianist and also. You're in an environment where
you're teaching. You're not setting a company
class. And even if in a company
environment, I can almost understand if they're used to
working with a particular teacher kind of what pacing
you're going to get, I wouldn't respond to that very well
because I like more. More information is always
better for me to maximize what you're going to get out of the
exercise. But in a teaching scenario, you
should not only be offering counts or some musicality, but
what about dynamic? What about a porn MOT?
What about where's you know you're in a class to be taught?
You're not there to just pick up exercises really super quickly
just to get through the vocabulary because you have a
performance like it's a different experience.
So I'm with you every step of the way.
This teacher either complimented.
Me on my dynamics and said that I hardly see anyone dancing in
my classes with enough dynamics anymore, right.
And I literally, I took it as a compliment and obviously didn't
say anything. I shut up.
Yeah, but I was also thinking I was like, well, if you actually
demonstrated your exercise with some dynamics and maybe people
would give you the dynamics that you wanted because people aren't
understanding what you're wanting out of them.
Gosh, if you're just going two families to the front, two
families to the side, two families to the back, what are
we doing? Are we doing or are we going
frappe, frappe. OK, both are correct, but what
do you want? Yeah, Yeah, there's.
No leading. You have to lead.
It's an important job. When you're leading a class,
you're leading people with different personalities.
They receive things differently. Some people like a verbal cue,
some people like a musical. Cute.
You've got to consider all of those different things if you're
going to be a great teacher or even a decent teacher.
So well, I'm sorry you had that experience.
I'm not surprised you'll you'll not return.
You know, there's many things that I don't.
Want to say shock? It sounds so dramatic, but like
as a dancer, I feel like we all have this commonality together.
Like we all know what it's like to be out of a job.
We all know how you know, that kind of thing.
So someone to waste my time and my money, I felt really pissed
off about because you also know, Mr. Teacher or Missus Teacher,
what this is like. And now you've wasted me.
You've wasted my time. You've wasted my money that is
dear to me because theatre doesn't pay.
Different conversation Episode 17 season 6 That is unfortunate.
Though and very disappointing and I and I think sadly, there
are many, many teachers out there that really do not have
the skill set to be giving great classes.
But again, that's all. That's another episode, no
doubt. So let's delve into some
different styles and types of teaching.
So I wanted to talk about the difference and this is whether
you are tap, jazz, ballet, contemporary, whatever style of
dance teacher, the differences between being a permanent
teacher at a school and Because we've just discussed open
classes and what we expect and what it's like being a guest
teacher as a jazz, ballet, whatever it is.
Because it's very different. And the more I teach, obviously
we never stop learning. And this is also advice for
myself. I'm putting it out into the
world and speaking things so I listen myself.
They are very different and I think we need to be aware of
being a guest teacher and being a permanent teacher are very
different jobs, 100%. I mean, I love being a guest
teacher because you don't have to get involved in the politics,
let's say, of that institution. I love that.
I love the freedom, but what that does mean is that you're
potentially seeing these dancers for the first time or they're
unfamiliar, so you're having to work out as the class
progresses, you know, the personalities of these dancers.
How are they receptive to to what you're offering?
Some may be more shy than others.
There are many, many elements and complexity, the standard,
the level. You know, so there are
definitely pros. And cons to each style of, of
teaching, you know, versus, you know, a more permanent role
where you know the people, you know the bodies that you're
working with. But then you have to keep up the
momentum because familiarity can also lead to laziness.
And you have to understand the relationship is different
between a student and a permanent teacher versus a
student and a guest teacher. And you have to be able to
switch again. For those listeners who have
enjoyed our previous episodes, you would have heard me talk
maybe briefly, but you know, at my time as a makeup artist and
working with different people and having to style step between
each person to get the best out of that person.
And you have to be the same way when you're teaching different
people, different students. You have to be able to adapt in
real time. You have to be able to work out
dancer to dancer, what makes that person tick.
So you can then reconfigure not your entire teaching style, but
certainly different ways to approach that person to get the
best out of that person whilst maintaining a relationship with
your pianist, whilst keeping your eye on the clock, whilst
keeping the structure of the class flowing, keeping everybody
warm, keeping the pace and, and, and ticking off those goals that
you've set for that class. So I think there's also that
side. Of it of for me as a guest
teacher, sometimes two things one side of being a guest
teacher, I can come in and I'm the exciting different one, yes.
So in some some sense of the word, my job is easier than your
regular teacher because I get to be the exciting different
person. I get to come in and give you
some new steps, a new life. And I'm a different energy to
what you usually have every other day.
There's that excitement about it, which is, which is
different. However, it's also quite
complicated. You know, going off what you
just said as well, I don't know the personalities, I don't know
the energy, I don't know the standard of the people.
Yes, and this is many places I've taught, whether in England
or in Denmark. You know, all I have to go off
is what you have said to me as the leader of the school.
If you have told me that you are teaching the the classical line
today or you are teaching the musical theatre line today, they
are not as strong as ballet, but they are really strong at this
or they are very strong technically.
Whatever it is, all I have to go on is what you say and if you
were trying to upsell your school, it doesn't really help
me. Because then if you tell me that
they're all really strong and I walk into the studio and they
are not, all my preparation that I did before I came to this room
is down the drain. Because these 11 year olds, 12
year olds, 14 year olds, 16 year olds, whatever it is, when you
tell me they are strong, I base it on what I have learned from
my experience of teaching a 16 year old, 14 year old, whatever
it is, is strong for that age bracket and that technique that
we are doing. There's no benefit in a school
upselling themselves to a guest teacher because it actually
wastes my time. Yeah, so that's one thing.
As a guest teacher, I also then will come into the room.
And if that happens, I can be in this situation being like, my
God, these kids who are, I don't know, 16 should really be able
to all do a double pirouette in a jazz class or whatever it is.
Now, on the other side of it, as a permanent teacher, if you have
these 16 year olds and none of them are being able to do a
double pirouette in a jazz class, it's your job to sort it
out. And that was something that hit
home with me when I was a permanent teacher somewhere
else, say, why can none of these kids do a double pirouette?
Well, Paul, you're the dance teacher, so do it.
It doesn't matter where they've come from before this.
It doesn't matter about their pre training or whatever it is.
They are in this establishment right now at this age.
If in your mind, if they should be able to do this step by this
point, you are the one to do it. And that was something that I, I
know it sounds, it sounds quite stupid maybe, but like it's
something that I was like, oh, Oh, yeah, I'm, I, it's my job to
do this because yes, fine, they have other classes and all this
kind of stuff. But now I'm not a guest teacher.
Now I'm a permanent teacher. If, if I want them to be able to
do this and then it's my job to do it, if that makes sense.
There's no one else to blame. That's the difference.
You are responsible. For the outcome of the skill set
of these dancers as a permanent teacher.
And that is a huge responsibility.
And like you say, it's in some ways far easier to step in for a
2 hour master class and be all bells and whistles and be the
new energy bouncing around the room.
Now we're doing fun choreography.
From insert musical here. Yeah, yeah, and everyone.
Says thank you so much. What a joy to have you.
And then you leave and that's the end of that story.
And then Damien comes in. The next Wednesday, every single
Wednesday is like right parallel step, single step, single step,
balance, balance down. Boring but needed technical
exercise. You are not as exciting.
Yeah, and you have to win them over.
In a different way and keep the energy and the momentum moving.
So very, very different styles and you'll also receive very
different reactions. I think it's it's really
interesting, the life of a teacher, a good teacher, a
responsible, informed, generous teacher, someone who gives a
warm up exercise. Somebody who sets the.
Somebody. Who greets you as?
You walk into the room would be a great indication of gosh, I'm
yeah, baffling. I literally I start.
Every single when I teach a ballet class, if I'm teaching, I
used to teach at a place called as as a school called steps.
And occasionally there was guests in this in the class.
Otherwise it was my students there if there was guests And
when I teach an open class at Copenhagen, I will say in
Danish, Hi, my name is Paul. I teach in English, I speak
fluent Danish, You can ask me anything in Danish you want,
I'll be able to answer you. But I teach the class in
English. But feel free to speak your own
language better. Let's start.
A small introduction just brings the room together.
I found it. Yeah.
I don't want to go back to that open class, but it's important
to start the class. You can't just, like, just start
it. Even if you are going to set the
exercise, I wouldn't also recommend facing the barn, just
your first thing to the people in the room being torn de front,
say good morning, say hello, say something.
Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree.
More I mean from from my workshop.
Well, it doesn't matter wherever I teach, but for my own
workshops and classes, I know that the 95% of the dancers in
that room, I'm very lucky. I have very loyal returning
dances. So I know, I know that when I
say welcome, here's what we're doing today, that they've heard
it all before. However, I will always have one
or two or three or four or five, doesn't matter how many new
people. So I always say, hi, this is who
I am. If this is your first time,
we're so thrilled to have you here.
This is a little bit about me. This is a little bit about what
to expect because everybody likes to be reassured about what
will unfold because being in a studio and not knowing,
particularly if you're learning something new, which is usually
the case, yes, you can feel a little bit intimidated and
unsure. So you have to set the tone
immediately. So I couldn't agree with you
more. I want the name and the personal
telephone number of this person that you're.
And I shall deal with it. I was very happy.
There's a new. Studio.
They've just, funny enough, they've just closed for a refurb
and they're opening up again, but there's a new studio in
Copenhagen that was doing an open class and they asked me to
teach open class over the summer and I loved it.
I haven't taught proper open class for a while, ballet class,
and it was so fantastic and I forgot how much I loved and feel
inspired by looking at these different dancers.
Do my steps like setting, you know, your normal waltzie, Padre
beret, pirouet, exercise from the corner.
And it's open class. So there are people doing ballet
for fun. There are people doing ballet
who are contemporary dancers. There are people doing ballet
who are professional ballet dancers in ballet companies.
There are people doing ballet who used to be ballet.
You know, there's a whole plethora of people who were in
that class, and I get so inspired by seeing someone do my
exercise in a way that I would never think about doing my
exercise. And that doesn't mean it's
wrong. It's just seeing how someone
interprets my steps. Loved teaching open, open class
again. It was so fantastic.
And I just love being able to give those corrections to the
room without stopping the energy.
So I like to give a correction, yeah, just out loud while the
music is going and you can listen to it or you can ignore
it. Like, because for me, I like,
that's what I like in a, in an open class.
When I go to an open class, sometimes I want to be left
alone. Sometimes I want to hear
corrections like it's, it's different everyday.
So I like to be able to give corrections to the room and you
can ignore me or you cannot. It was just, it was, I really
enjoyed it. So I look forward to this studio
opening up again after their refurb, which they do I think on
October the 1st. Wonderful.
Not too far away. Either so exciting, I think you
know and I think, what does she think?
What am I thinking? I think just to end this point
on, you know, the different styles of teaching versus which
scenario you may find yourself in.
I think regardless, I can't remember what I was going to say
regardless, point your feet. Well, thank you for listening to
another. Episode of drinks at the bar we
could talk about teaching for absolute ages and especially I
could give you some lovely exercises from the corner.
Just please make sure they always have a nice balancing and
I love a balancer. I love a waltz and a Ron
Versailles if you've. Heard last week's episode?
Just a walks forward and back and around the corner a chassis
end of 4th and a turn turn, turn splits, flick, Flack splits,
flick. No flick flax.
Lose the flick Flack. Denise.
It's been a pleasure, another pleasure.
Thank you for coming back for Episode 2 of Season 3.
We're just as excited as you are and we're thrilled to be
unravelling Season 3 as the weeks progress, so stick with
us. There'll be plenty more to hear
from Denise and Pops, and until then, lots of love and we'll be
back soon. Love you lots, Denise.
Thank you so much and I'll speak to you again very soon.
Bye, darling. Bye everybody.
Bye. Thank you.
Bye.