Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is Paul James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen, and
I am your host of Drinks at the Bar.
Today I am joined by my regular guest host.
She may live in West London, but she was Bradford's Carnival
Princess in 1989. Ladies and gentlemen, please
welcome Damian Lee Sturck, OH. My God, I always make it a habit
not to read that part of the script so that it's a complete
surprise, but I was not expecting that.
Hi everybody, I'm Damian Lee Sturck, director of The Dancer's
Studio London, classical ballet teacher and actor with the Royal
Ballet. Here we will discuss everything
from hearing backstage stories, touring shenanigans, to deeper
issues like body image training, the reality of being a freelance
dancer, and much more. With guest professionals, we are
here to share our knowledge, experience, and help you with
any questions or problems you may have about dance and
navigating the dance world. Well, hello, Denise.
Hello my little treacle tart. I am very excited, so I'm just
going to tell you straight away before I say proper hello to
you. OK.
I've been waiting to take a sip and tell you that this week I am
drinking a limoncello spritz. Oh, how lovely.
Well, I'll let you know. It's about to happen.
I've never, I've never. I've never tried one before
actually. It's not homemade, it is from a
can. Not for Marks and Spencer's,
because sadly, some of us are in Denmark.
It's not a Marquis. What is the Marks and Spencer's
equivalent? I mean, there's there's, there's
posher supermarkets, but there's also like, you know, the kind of
Selfridges food hall kind of thing, There's that kind of
stuff. But like.
I've been to the one where I think, well, obviously we went
together, but it's at the top. Is them like a cafe or
restaurant and you can look down.
Yeah, I've been there. Which is really, really lovely.
I've been there. Yeah.
That's Ilum. Yeah.
Yes, Ilum, Yeah, it was about £35 for a pan of chocolate.
Yeah. Sounds like Denmark take our
mortgage to have a glass of tap water.
Well love, what are you drinking this week?
Well I'm being very dull and I'm currently drinking a citrus and
echinacea tea because there are so many bugs going around.
I'm feeling a little bit under the weather and I start
rehearsals this week with English National Ballet Sleeping
Beauty so I need to be on top form for my walk on, walk off
appearance. You say dull, I say
professional, so here we go. Cheers.
Cheers, I better not sip too much because I'll burn my
throat. That's tastes.
I was going to say smells. That tastes like a melted solero
or no? The ones in the tube A clippo.
Oh really, Calypso? The lemon Yeah, the lemon
flavour 1 is. It Calypso?
Is it Clippo? Calypso calipo, I think.
I think it's Clippo. No, Calypso is the music.
We shall call it Calypsino. The lemon one but melted and put
in a glass with a little bit of fizz.
That's what it tastes like. Is it sweet?
Is it very sweet? It's very sweet, I suppose.
Limoncello is sweet, isn't it so.
I would, I would. Well, I have another one in the
fridge. We're going to have to do both
today, but I'd prefer to have an apple spritz next time.
But this was a, you know, yes. You never know unless you try.
Exactly, and we're both on the citrus.
It's just that mine's in a tea with echinacea, honey and lemon,
and yours is in a is a. Sparkling alcoholic tea, that's
what it is. I mean, that's not to be sniffed
at really, because I mean, maybe it is.
It might smell lovely. But you know what?
It's basically just a LEM sip. That's what it is.
A LEM sip with a shot of vodka. I mean, I'll tell you, we're on
to something. A vodka lem sip and now that is
medicinal. Oh, a gin Lem sip.
Why not? I'll try next week, let you
know. You know, and if it was pre pre
performance, as long as there are no stairs or partner work
involved then why not? So E&B you've, well, I was going
to say you've never worked at. E&B you have worked at.
E Yes, yes, way back when, a long time ago, yes, this job
came out of the blue and very, very lovely to be asked to be a
part of their Sleeping Beauty tour, so.
Oh Tour. Yeah, so I have.
This week is rehearsals and then next week we're in Liverpool and
then I have two weeks off from English National Ballet where
I'll then be rehearsing something with the Royal Ballet.
So Rain, our dear friend, Rain and I, we were asked by the
Royal Ballet, by the director of the Royal Ballet, in fact, if we
would like to participate in the Osipova Linberry performances.
So with Natalia Osipova. So we have that coming up in
November. It's amazing.
I knew already.
Sorry, I can't act that well. I can't act surprised because I
knew already. So.
So that came out of the blue, as did Ian B.
So I'm thrilled. Yeah, it's fantastic.
So I had a fitting yesterday with Royal.
I'm going back in for a second fitting tomorrow, start
rehearsals for Ian B on Thursday.
That's amazing. Well, cheers, love and
congratulations on the double job.
Amazing. Thank.
You but. That's really cool that you, you
know, after working at the world now for a couple, quite a few
shows that you get handpicked to do that.
That's really flattering and fantastic.
That's really cool. Yeah, I I'm really, really very,
very happy and excited and can't, I can't wait.
And particularly when you know something comes unexpectedly,
there are no expectations because you're not waiting for
that call. You know, like we discussed
doing our audition episode where you're just wait, you're
checking your phone every 5 minutes because you're just
wait. You're wanting them waiting to
hear if you've got the job or if you haven't got the job.
So for something to come completely out of the blue and,
and fill a gap where ordinarily I would have been doing my own
workshop. So Sunday just gone.
We have the Lafi Malgade workshop, repertoire workshop at
the Opera House, which was saving success and so that would
have kept me busy. We still have a few more
workshops coming up, but it's lovely to have these two jobs.
So thank you. It's.
Really cool. So today we're talking about
being honest. Well, well, well.
Well, our last episode on auditions got me thinking about
honesty and the feedback from auditions, for example, that's
what started my brain thinking about areas of the industry
where I feel that we could be a little bit more honest with each
other and it would actually be helpful.
My point being is that I feel that in an audition situation,
let's take that for starters. In an audition situation, the
caster or the director may say to you, oh, thank you very much
for coming, you were great. But we just don't have enough.
We can't hire everybody or whatever it is if they actually,
they did not think that, if they actually thought you do not suit
this company at all or you are too short for this production or
your singing is not up to scratch.
I think yes, it might hurt my feelings, but I think it would
actually be very useful to hear this and be told why I didn't
get the job. Absolutely agree.
I mean, you know, going on from what we discussed in last week's
episode about honest feedback, whether you've been cut from a
casting, an audition or, or it's a positive experience, I think
there should be a moment of honesty in order to grow as an
artist. And, you know, we touched upon
last week, yes, it can be all consuming if you're taking the
audition or you're taking the casting and you've got a million
things to think about. And but I don't think that
really stands up anymore as an excuse not to have honest
communication with the people that you've asked or invited to
see. Yeah.
And obviously what we spoke about last week with sometimes
you don't even get an answer. Yeah, that's a different
discussion and we covered that last week.
What now you are giving an answer.
Let's give an honest answer because let's just take a
musical for example. Let's just take where I'm
working, the new theatre where we do 2 musicals every single
season. So you're having two sets of
auditions every single season. And let's just say someone is
coming in every single time we do an audition and we always
think they're whatever is not strong enough, whether it be
their dance skills, whether it be their technique, whether that
whether it be that they are too stiff, whether it be that they
Can't Sing, whatever the reason is, that is always the reason.
I think at some point it would be helpful for them and helpful
for us to tell them the truth about why they are not being
picked. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I think it's important to understand the reasoning behind
the no. And obviously I get it, we
cannot tell every single person a reason.
But let's just say we've had a cut and now these people are
coming in to sing. We're on a smaller group now.
And when we are telling you that you don't have the job, we could
tell you why because when I've auditioned for places before
where it says on the e-mail, if you would like to know more
information or what however they were to, if you would like to
know the reason why we didn't hire you, feel free to contact
us and we'll tell you. They never tell you, not really.
They say, Oh yeah, you weren't right for this production.
So, well, I got that because I didn't get to the job.
So like, it's pretty obvious I wasn't right for the production.
But why? What was wrong?
Especially if you know you fulfil the requirements for the
role. So if you are the right height
and you have the right look, then I'd like to know, was it my
dancing? Is it my singing?
Is it, is it something else? You know what?
What could it be that can help me navigate a better audition
for someone else or even return to the to this said company or,
or musical or genre so that I grow as an artist without
feeling deflated? It's, you know, productive
criticism is very, very healthy. And I know as dancers
especially, we're not great at receiving well, I say that, but
we receive as performers, professional performers, we
barely receive any positive feedback.
It's always criticism, but it's all in the delivery.
But I think in that scenario, you know, you're not being
hired. Something hasn't worked out.
Let's let's find out. And it can be a couple of words
like, you know, actually seeing you in the room, you know, you
didn't fit with the rest of the cast or actually you said you
were 5 foot 6, you know, and actually you're 5 foot 10 and
you know, and it doesn't quite work out.
So actually this is the reasoning why it doesn't take
much. But I think based on my own
experience, I feel like it's just it's too dismissive because
they've got their minds on their mind on other things, other
elements and. Yeah, the decision has been made
now, so we don't need you anymore.
Exactly. Exactly, really.
So a little bit of, you know, common courtesy and but also to
think of it as something productive for the artist.
Well, exactly. And it's, I think for me, the
reason why I have thought about it is because you know, if you
are going to the same place auditioning over and over and
over again, which people do, I'm in Denmark, so it's a small
place. I mean, the dance world is small
wherever you go, but like especially in a small country,
it's even smaller. So you know, there are people
that come to the same place and audition every single time and
never get the job. At some point I feel yes, we've
spoke about before that you need to be self aware.
We've said that many times. You have to be self aware that
are you good enough? But also, I think there is a
side of it from the prospective employer or addition holder,
caster, whomever to maybe tell them that I'm really sorry,
sweetheart, but you really need to work in your singing because
you're coming every single time to these auditions.
You get through the, I'm not talking about anyone in
particular. You get through the dancing
every single time, let's just say, and then every time you
come to sing, it's a no straight away from us.
So it's a waste of your time and it's a waste of our time.
You need to do something about it.
You need to go and get some singing lessons that would
really help everybody in the situation.
It would help the person and it would help us because we're
wasting our time looking at this person if it's the same problem
every single time. Yeah, if nothing's changed since
the last time Jessica auditioned.
The last time Jessica auditioned, she sang Be Our
Guest out of tune yet again, and forgot the text.
But there is that part of it of, well, if she doesn't know that
she's bad or that's the reason she's not getting cast, then I
don't know. Look, sometimes we don't get
feedback. Sometimes it is just a no, and
that's what that is. But my point being, if we are
going to give feedback, it may as well be honest feedback.
Otherwise, you're just wasting your breath.
There's no point if you were giving feedback, there is no
point just giving general feedback.
Oh yes, you're just not right for this show.
If you're going to say something that at least say something that
is helpful for both parties. Otherwise it's just wasted
breath. There are also certain people
that come to auditions that we've spoken about this before
that wind you up the wrong way through how they act in an
audition, whether they are brown, nosy or whether they are
being the cut class clown or whether they are asking too many
questions. Whatever the reason, if they do
that at every single audition, I feel like I kind of want to say
that to them when I see them privately.
If I ever see them privately or if they come and take a class
I'm teaching somewhere, I kind of feel like should I, maybe I
should. Maybe this is a question for
you, Denise. Should I tell this person that
to be honest, in auditions, one of the big things going against
you is how you actually act in the audition?
Or is it not my place to say anything?
Because I don't know this person at all.
I've just seen them out and about and they've come to
auditions and they wind you up. Is it my place in my free time
to say something or should I just forget about it and never
hide them? I think as a leader in the room,
director leader, you know, you're leading the audition.
I think you do have a responsibility to to to lead the
artists in front of you, lead them with what they need to
learn in that environment. But you're also leading by
example. So I think if it's, you know, a
repeat offender where a person's coming in and they're actually
very talented, but they're bravado, which may be a coping
mechanism to get them through an audition scenario because it's
very, very stressful and intimidating.
And I think you just have to judge it.
And if there's an opportunity to say, look, you know, we've,
we've loved seeing you today. It wasn't a fit.
But if I may offer some advice, you don't need the bravado
because your talent, your skill set is enough.
It would be lovely the next time we see you just to embrace the
space without the necessity to amp up or camp up the energy,
you know, because we don't need it and we find it quite
distracting and we're worried how you may gel with with the
rest of the performing company. But it's it's so unique, isn't
it? You know, that's not a a
general, a generalized conversation.
That's a very specific conversation.
Do you want me to call this person I?
Was going to say, should I just tap them on the shoulder and be
like sorry Series 3 episode 518 minutes in.
Or tap them on the shoulder and just say lose the clown nose.
So. The next thing we need to talk
about is as a teacher, Honesty in the classroom and honesty,
the honesty that should be there between a teacher and a student.
When we were at school, things were very direct and like we've
discussed many times, there maybe weren't the best
corrections because it was just a group correction for everybody
and that's the correction. There were teaching tools,
weren't there? So that was a big negative.
But people were very how you were spoken to was very direct.
Nowadays, because of safeguarding and trying to look
after the students well-being, I feel that teachers feel that
they can't be honest with the kid they have.
They've they're trying to protect the kids.
So they're a little bit scared of being too harsh on the child
and whether that's self-inflicted, they're putting
that on themselves or whether it's through the institution and
how the world has changed. They feel like they cannot say
what they really want to say. I think we're very close to a
time right now or we are in a time right now where we have
gone a little bit too far the other way.
That's what I'm trying to say. I feel that people aren't being
told, yeah, we're not being direct enough.
We've overcorrected the problem. Yeah, I, I, I would agree.
I mean, when we were in training, you know, we certainly
received a no frills style of feedback.
It was very direct. This isn't good enough.
Do it again, try it again. You know, it was very common to
be hit by a teacher, you know, to be, to be quite roughly
handled, but that, that is all we knew, right?
And for a very long time it, you know, that style of teaching
existed. Umm, I've certainly been in, in
situations as an observer watching classes where I felt
the teacher is terrified to say anything to the student in case
the student marches out and and reports the teacher for saying
something offensive, which wouldn't have been, I'm certain.
But because of safeguarding protocols and, and we have
overcorrected that we do need to find a balance of.
And I think if we're specifically discussing teachers
training, let's say vocational students who wish to be
professional performers, because of course, if you're teaching
kids that are there on a weekend or once a weekend and they're
not there. Very different situationally.
Different, Absolutely. They're there to have fun.
Yes, discipline is introduced, focus.
But it's a completely different setup.
But you also need these kids to enjoy themselves because you're
making a business on their money.
You need them to come back. It's a whole different game.
It is indeed. Teaching at a vocational school,
these professional students, that's where I mean.
Your years at school are brief, whether it's five years lower
school and three years upper school, that's only eight years
to, to, to graduate. If you're lucky to get through
the whole, the whole series of years, you know, some dancers
may find they only have really three years or two years
vocational training. So time is of the essence.
And so there there isn't any time to waste and I feel.
It's OK to be direct without crossing a line.
It's all about the delivery and you know, the choice, the
wording, how you choose to deliver the message that you're
trying to get across. And I think that definitely
reflects upon the teacher, the teachers teaching skills.
So maybe maybe we need to look at more programming for teacher
support so they find more productive ways to be able to
teach rather than just being panicked and stressed that, Oh
my gosh, if they, if you know, if I, if I tell said student,
you know, you're not pointing your feet enough because which
is a very, very natural reaction when you see a foot that's not
fully extended. I mean, there's nothing to be
offended by about about it, but you have to be able to say
you're not pointing your foot enough because you're not
pushing whatever reason, rather than saying, you know, why don't
you try? You know, when you do that
sotay, why don't you try? We don't have nobody's got time
for that. But but true, that is the thing
when you want to, and I think you nailed it on the head right
at the beginning when you said that you've seen it happen and
you you think it's because the the teacher is terrified with
the situation. I mean, council culture and all
that kind of stuff. We're in a situation where we
are terrified to be cancelled, terrified to insult, terrified
to, you know, but you need to be able to teach.
You need to be able to. And yes, we are not talking
about we should be shouting again, again, you are a piece of
shit, you know, like it was in the old days.
That's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about being able to turn round and say, Jessica,
I've told you 3 times today, I told you yesterday, it's always
a problem. Please step onto a straight knee
when you're doing PK turns APK and our best step onto a
straight knee. If you're giving the same
correction every single day, you cannot give it in a nice,
friendly, happy, happy, happy, pleasant way every single time.
That's not how anything works. That's not how the world works.
You need to be stern, be you. You need to be able to have the
opportunity to be stern if you need to without running the risk
of now this child is going to go to their parents or the director
because, oh, Damien was horrible to me.
Because the child, the customer is always right.
The child is always right. So we shouldn't be in a
situation where we're scared to be able to do our job.
I fully agree. It's finding the balance, isn't
it? It's finding a balance of being
able to teach without feeling claustrophobic within that
environment of, well, I can't say this and I can't do that
because that is not teaching. I'm sorry.
I've experienced it myself, you know, watching classes,
vocational schools and it's, it's, it's not productive, it's
wasting time. But I think again, I would
always go back to, you know, I always remember how was I
taught, you know, what did, what can I take, what can I take from
that? What did I learn from that
experience? And what and what do I not want
to replicate? And you have to find your own
balance of teaching. It's very teaching is an
extremely layered and complicated role because you're
you're always thinking about a million things at the same time.
We've spoken about this on numerous occasions, but you're
leading the classroom, but you're not just leading a class
and delivering information that, you know, hope comes back to you
executed well. You know, you're communicating
with your pianist, you're checking your time.
You've got to make sure that everybody's safe in that space
working correctly. But also at the end of their one
2-3 years of training, you're responsible for how they the
outcome, the outcome, how they arrive in, what standard they
arrive at. Yeah, the standard they are what
their school set. What do they have at the end of
the education? Yeah.
Which is why it's infuriating when there are so many people
who think they can teach because they can dance.
But that's, again, that's a whole.
I'm going to need another tea. But but it's it's, it's, it's
the thing about being able to be honest with the student.
And I think it's really important.
Now everybody has their own way of teaching the way I that works
for me to be able to say what I want to say because I'm, I'm
hired to teach you. So I'm going to tell you what I
think or whatever, right? But the way I do, I like to have
a hard working classroom, but have like already a little bit
of humour in my class. Like from my side, not as like
I'm the class clown, but like the way I talk sometimes and be
very, very relaxed in the, my tone of voice.
And that makes sense and making the environment so that when I
get to the corner and Jessica comes across the goes across the
diagonal and I and I, I don't know, give her a correction,
whatever. And then she goes back and does
it again. If when she turns around to me
and goes, was it better? I turn around and go, no, not at
all. Because I've already created
before that a kind of a funny sarcastic classroom safe space.
So that when I'm saying actually, you know what, if
anything was a bit worse, she knows that I'm being honest with
her, but I'm not being horrible. We are now on a not on a friend
level. That's not what I'm trying to
say, but you know what I mean? Like there's a trying to take
down the, the, the barriers between teacher and students so
that I can be honest with you and you not see it as an insult
or something be like, actually, you know what, do it again, come
on. And then I can also say to her
the next time she goes to the other side, I'm like, oh, so we
thought about it to the right, but the left, we just decided
not to think about it. And I say in a jokey way because
she knows her sense of humour in the classroom.
You've built that those building blocks of the relationship so
that you can be honest if. That makes sense.
It makes perfect sense. And I think, you know, Jessica
may respond to that, but somebody else in the class may
not respond that way. Exactly why we as teachers, we
have to be able to adapt in the way we deliver, you know, a
message and we could be delivering countless messages,
feedback, corrections, whatever way you want to put it in
different ways, in different styles, because we have to,
that's what that's a portion of what makes a good teacher.
We do have to be relatable. They are looking at us for
direction and to lead. And if that's a way, if that's a
way that can kind of relieve stress and break the ice a
little bit and, and can make a student more responsive than
absolutely, you have to do, you have to try and do what works,
you know, in in your own classroom.
But yeah, I totally agree. You know, and some, I think most
students actually would welcome feedback.
And I say feedback and not criticism.
I think feedback is a better way to think about it because even
productive, and I've used this term already in, in this very
episode, you know, I think as adults or professional dancers,
we can take, we understand constructive criticism.
But I think when you're dealing with younger students,
vocational level students, it's, it's the delivery of the
feedback which can be more productive because, you know,
they're going through a tough time.
Hormones are changing, yeah. They're teenagers.
They're away from home, you know, they're not fully evolved
human beings. So it's, you know, it's already
a stressful environment. You don't know what mood they're
going to be in when they're walking.
They're probably exhausted as well because they're working
very, very hard. So there's a lot to navigate,
but I think you know the key. The key feature of this episode
is honest feedback. The reason why I say that about,
let's just keep on saying Jessica coming from the corner,
stepping onto a bent leg. The reason I bring it up is
because I hear it from guest teachers or I see it around me,
or I see someone's reaction to me giving them some honest
feedback. No one is getting anything out
of me telling Jessica that it was better when it wasn't better
just because she is sweating and I can see that she's trying.
If you can see that she's working hard and she's trying to
do it, you say that. Say it.
That's why I'm saying be honest. Because if you look at the
situation and Jessica's correction is still not working,
she's still not thinking about that stretched knee.
There's no point saying yes, it was better.
But if she was working and she's sweating and you can see that
she is trying something, you can say, I can see you're working.
Be honest. I can see you're working really
hard. I can see you're thinking about
lots of different things. That knee is still not
stretching, sweetheart. Actually, you're still not doing
the correction that I'm going after, but I can see that you
were trying. Now it's your job as a teacher
to help them. Yeah, I mean, honest feedback is
going to help a student, you know, identify strengths and
areas for improvement. So the goal is improvement,
right? So anything that can support
that, we're here for it. But again, delivery is key.
I think in this day and age, it's more about the delivery,
which is why we're discussing honesty, because you have to be
honest, but you also have to deliver in a way that is
positive. Because gone, well, I say gone
are the days where, you know, teachers would scream and slap
and hit, but I don't think they they have gone completely.
But I think there's certainly more care surrounding
institutions. And we are in a time where I see
on teachers and I feel it myself sometimes that can I say this,
are you going to react? Because sadly, and it's not me
because I don't have any kids, but their kids arrive at
institutions in bubble wrap and haven't maybe been told off
before or haven't maybe been given any stern feedback before
from whether it's their home life, whether it's their primary
school, whether whatever it is, they come to me.
And I feel like it's the first time they've ever been told no
or they've never been given a stern, actually, no, it wasn't
good, you know what I mean? That kind of thing.
I feel like they're coming to our schools not ready
emotionally. Yes, and that's a whole other
issue, isn't it? So parents out there.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I
would imagine that. I mean my experience, and I'm
sure it's similar to your experience.
You know, I trained before moving to London for vocational
school at Ian BS. You know, I trained locally with
Dorothy Stevens and she was very old school, but she wasn't mean.
She was a prime example of being direct, no frills, but she
delivered her message with care because she cared so much about
all of her students. But, you know, and my mother, my
mother was to anybody who came to watch, you know, parents were
allowed to watch my, my mother, my, my granddad.
They would sometimes come in and watch, you know, and wait for me
rather than driving all the way back home and then coming back
to collect me. And they'd be terrified of her
because she had such a presence. But she was never mean and I
would say yes, she was stern, but she was still, I know, kind.
You could tell it was born out of kindness while still being
stern. And maybe that, you know, that's
a counter, counter opposed wording, but.
No, it's not, because Stern isn't me.
Yeah, she certainly wasn't that. May she rest in peace.
And she, she really, I think without realizing it now as a
teacher, she really, she was, she was leading the class
certainly. And you know, we learn from
example, don't we? We learn by example.
She was my example. So I'm so grateful to take that
away, you know, with me, to carry that with me as a teacher.
But I am, I'm, I'm, I wouldn't even say I was stern.
Actually, I'm, I'm kind, I'm a kind teacher, but I am a direct
teacher as a you, you know, this is this is what we need to
achieve. Let's not waste any time.
But I'm certainly not going to put you in a position where you
feel attacked or or or or stressed because we can't
operate, we can't move under those, you know, circumstances.
Exactly. And another thing.
Before we bypass completely what we just touched upon there with
the kids coming to the school parents and blah, blah, blah,
all that kind of thing. Luckily I don't have to deal
with it, but through people I know who do work in those
institutions, parents being able to talk to parents.
And there are parents who ask the teachers, why didn't my
child get an A in her dance exam or why didn't I get into the
summer show? Why am I not the lead in this?
Why did I not get The Apprentice job and Jessica did or whatever
it is. Parents ask questions in these
parents teacher consultations as they're supposed like that's
what they're there for, to understand their child's
education. But I know from people I know
that they don't feel that they can be honest because the parent
will kick off, you know, that whole kind of pushy dance mum
thing. What are you doing to my child?
My child is better than you teach the ballet.
You know what I mean? If you're coming here and you're
you're asking why did my child not get such and such, you have
to be ready to hear the truth from the teacher.
Certainly if you're if you're asking a question, be prepared
to receive an answer that may not be the answer you want, you
know? That's what honesty is and
that's how it that's how we should as teachers be able to do
our job. If a parent is asking us, why
did she not get this? And if the reason was she's
lazy, she's too short. What?
Again, honestly, whatever the reason, it doesn't matter what
the reason is. Tell the truth and we should be
able to tell the truth without feeling that the parents going
to throw it in our face and be like, oh, but I thought Bethany
was much worse than Jessica. And but all this kind of drama
that happens at these parent teacher consultations, like
whether Bethany in your eyes is better than your daughter, it
does not matter. You ask this teacher their
opinion. You have trusted your child's
education with this teacher. Let the teacher do their job.
If Bethany got the role because Bethany was the best for the
role. You have to be able to support
the teacher and support the school in their decisions
because all they're doing here is preparing the child for the
outside world and this is going to happen in the outside world.
Bethany's going to get a job and you're not going to get a job
and you have to be able to cope with it.
You cannot have mummy and daddy running up to the teacher in the
school and bitching about it because that's not helping.
That's not helping your child. You complaining that other
people have got the role and questioning your teach, the
teacher's decision and questioning this prestigious
dance school that you've sent them to.
What are you getting out of it? What is your not you, your
child? What is your child getting out
of that? Your child is not being aided in
any way by you arguing her way into the show.
Let's just say we need to be able to do our job as teachers
yet again. And I'm sure that happens on
many, many occasions because, you know, the parents aren't
there to see the progress or lack of, of their child, you
know, So a good dialogue between parent and teacher, a healthy
dialogue is what's going to be the most productive.
You know, for example, why isn't so and so in the Allegro section
of the class presentation this year, teacher may bond with
well, you know, we've assessed every student as we usually do
and we find said student isn't quite strong enough or doesn't
quite have the skill set to execute this quite extensive
Allegro section in the class presentation.
However, we would like to work with said student, either
extracurricular hours or we have a support system set up already
so that we can at least try to manage and get the progression
of this student up and running. So that next presentation class
we have said student will be back with us, you know, fully
functioning and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That takes time and I'm sure it's exhausting to consider per
each student. You know, however, that is
training, that is teaching, that is leading, that is progression.
So, but yeah, it must be annoying when parents are like,
you know, complaining when they have no real concept of of
what's what's going on, you know, And also, I'm sure I like
you. I am not a parent, but I'm sure
that, you know, you would feel like your child is the best
because it's your child. Of course, we're not under any,
you know, illusion of of course, but that you have to have some
reality because we're trying to prepare these kids for the
future and a future in dance is ruthless.
It's it's never the dancers, it's never the parents who know
anything about dancing that act like that.
It's never an ex dancer or an ex actor or an ex singer who acts
like that with their child. It's your dental hygienist and
the dad who's a lawyer or you know what I mean?
It's the people who have nothing to do with the dance world that
I like that with their kids. And you kind of like, oh, I'm
sorry. Yeah.
Do I lie there in the chair and tell you that you're not
cleaning my teeth properly? You probably would.
Do I walk into court and start like no I don't, You don't know
how to do my job, hence the fact that you have hired me to do
this job. Yeah, you have to have trust in
the institution, but but the the institution has to be honest.
It has to give an honest representation of growth and
progression. Because it's the only way that
helps everybody involved. Yeah, otherwise it is a waste of
time and it's A and it's and it's too expensive to be a
hobby. It is.
It is just with the auditions and with this, with education.
Nobody is getting anything out of you lying or giving 1/2 assed
reason or correction. Honesty is the only way anyone's
going to get any better or we're going to hire the right people
or we're going to go forward. The only way forward is to be
able to be in a situation where we, we as the student, we as the
auditionee, are willing to accept honesty and that the
panel or the teacher or whoever feel that they are in a safe
enough space that they can be honest and it's not going to be
thrown at their face or they're suddenly going to be cancelled
for whatever reason. We need to be able to do our
job. Yes, it's far too, it's far too
complicated as it is with all of those obstacles.
But I think just just to finish, an ideal scenario would be in
the studio, a teacher who has the skill set to deliver
positive, constructive feedback to a child in this case, who has
been raised by a parent or a guardian that understands the
importance of positive feedback. You know, my mom certainly told
me. Listen to what Miss Stevens
tells you every time. Right, Damien?
You know, I'd get in the car and she'd say, you know, have you
practiced what you know? Right, put on your lycra katsu
again. Listen your little.
Because I've got to take your brother to football, sit outside
in the rain and watch him play 5A side football.
So you get in there and point your toes.
Like you've never pointed before.
Oh, I miss those days. But also just on the side of
that, I have to say, being honest is what we're talking
about here. So same thing happens here with
a positive feedback. I, I still for the life of me
don't understand why more teachers don't give positive
feedback. I, I don't get it because I
can't, I'm not that gay man that goes to a concert, hears someone
singing and goes yes. But it is that feeling you get
when you're a teacher and someone does something really
good across the classroom. I go yes, good.
I can't be the only person who to celebrate that.
Yeah, I can't be the only teacher that feels that like so
I don't understand teachers that don't see something be like,
yes, Peter Good or whoever. I think or the natural, the
natural evolution of a teacher. You know, we, we come from a
professional background, usually, not always.
You can also do your vocational training and graduate and go
straight into teaching, of course.
But we're so used to having that background of we only spend time
discussing what's wrong. We never discuss or talk about
or bring up what's gone right because again, we don't have
time. It's we, we, we're trying to
improve. And that stems from school well
into professional. I mean, you know, I think about
our time on tour when I know I was sat in the auditorium with a
microphone saying you're too fast stage left or, you know,
where's or where's Poppy? She's not here yet.
Somebody get me her. Get her on the phone.
Oh. My God.
You know, we're, we're, we're so consumed about, you know, let's
make this the best show we can. And I think we're so used to
that mindset that even in the schooling, it's, it's the same
intensity. Let's create the best execution
of each step as we can. Because we're getting you ready
for a career in live performance in dance or singing or whatever
it may be. And the culture is.
We do not celebrate. Occasionally we may say what a
fantastic opening night, but you don't really get much in terms
of positive it complements it not at.
All I could probably count on one hand how many times in my
professional career I've got a good personally to me.
Yeah. And it's, it's sad, isn't it?
And we have to be, but we have to, we have to change that 100%.
We have to make that shift, you know, which is why we're
discussing. Well, exactly.
That's why we're discussing it. So that's one of my things I
wanted to just shove on here right at the end of talking
about education was if you are a teacher and someone does
something good, say good. You don't have to stop the class
because the correction is slightly different.
You have to do something about it.
You have to either stop the exercise and go over to Jessica
and give her her correction, or you have to walk over to the
corner and talk to Jessica while Bettina and Josie are coming
from the corner. You talk to Jessica over there a
good you don't have to do anything.
You literally just have to shout over to Jessica.
Much better Jessica and then then and keep on looking at the
next screen. You don't have to do anything
apart from just say it. Just be honest.
If you felt something, let it out.
It's be like yes, just say yes I shout good or yes randomly so.
Much same, same. I can't help it if it's in, if
you've seen an improvement in real time, you want to celebrate
that, you know, you know, we should be celebrating those
moments as much as we're trying to improve other elements of the
class. You know, that's part of
teaching, isn't it? So it's, it really is a two way
St. You have to be receptive as the
student, as the dancer, the trainee, whether you're
professional or not in that setting, within that classroom
studio, you know, you have have to be receptive, take things on
board because we we've discussed this many times about general
corrections because we just don't have the time to give
individual corrections all of the time.
You have to be receptive. But also on the other side of
that, we have to, as teachers, be responsible and intelligent
enough to deliver in a way that is honest.
Insert theme tune music here. Now, I don't think we can have
an episode on honesty if we don't cover a working
environment as well. We have covered auditions and we
have covered dance class or dance education, but those
aren't the only places where you get feedback.
You also get feedback when you are working.
Let's just say in this ballet company, as the director, you
have to be able to be honest. And again, it's this, it's where
we are in society right now that is making directors feel a
little bit apprehensive or nervous or scared to be able to
be honest and be able to say you didn't get the role because you
weren't good enough without getting cancelled.
That's the only reason I can think of why directors are not
honest. I understand you maybe want to
be nice to me. Maybe that's also in your
thoughts that you're trying to be a nice person.
But I don't think I just think it's more beneficial for you to
tell me. I'm not here to be your friend.
I'm not here to hang out. We're not here to, you know,
make friendship bracelets or whatever.
Like I'm at work. Have I done my job well enough?
Am I good enough? Have I worked hard this season?
Have I not worked hard this season?
What do you want to see out of me next season?
And if I mean, I'm not one of those people that really would
ask why I didn't get a role because I trust the process and
I trust the powers that be that you didn't cast me because
whatever reason it was, you didn't cast me.
And I will just not appreciate that's not the right word.
I will understand and support your decision because you're my
boss or you're my cast, you're my choreographer, whatever it
is. But if someone does come up with
one of those questions, firstly you should feel that you can
tell the truth and you should tell them the truth because
again, what is the point of not telling the truth?
Nobody is getting anything out of it.
If we can't keep on saying Jessica because also she's not
in the company, she wouldn't be there.
If Maria works for you. You want your employees to be
good. You want to hire Maria again.
So Maria asking why she didn't get to play Swan Hilda in this
production, the only thing to do here is to tell them why?
Because you want a better version of Maria next time so
maybe she can place one Hilda. Maria wants to be better so she
can place one Hilda. We all want Maria to be better.
So why would we not say it's because you're you're miming was
unbelievable or whatever the IT is like the reason that you did
not cast this girl as the role Tell also if you don't, if she
is not good enough to be more than quarter ballet or height
wise, she's not right. Whatever the reason, please just
tell us the reason because it's, again, it's beneficial for all
parties involved. No, absolutely.
I couldn't agree more. And I think within that
scenario, that specific setup of, you know, the persons
already within the company, but trying to explore different
roles, I think the key thing to take away is building honest and
respectful relationships within that environment within that
company so that everybody progresses.
Because if the if the dancer, if the performer is happy and
evolving, that can only be a great thing for the company,
right? If that person stays within that
company. So there's no sense in hiding
or, or shying away or, you know, in case you're trying to, you
know, avoid hurting their feelings because there is no
growth. You know honesty should provoke
growth if it's delivered in a respectful way.
So before we finish this episode, I just wanted to say
something about, OK, so I also understand that we all have to
play the game and we all have to be nice people and we all have
to be at work and give fake pleasantries and all that kind
of stuff. I get that.
However, I need to tell you this story.
So I'm watching a scene from out front.
I'm on the God mic, as we call it in the industry, and
everybody is going to leave the scene, right?
And let's just call her Jessica. Jessica is stood on stage left
and literally, I can't remember what it is, but let's just say
it's a big bum and everyone has to, without running, quickly get
off stage, right? And Jessica crosses the entire
stage to go off stage, right? So then I'm like, OK, stop.
It's like, Jessica, why did you go off stage?
Right? We're all trying to go off as
quickly as possible. That was the note that was
given. It's like, oh, but my next
entrance is over here and her next entrance firstly is in 10
minutes. And so I'm like, how do I put in
a nice way? Cross under the stage, bitch, I,
I, I don't. And yet my point being this is
this is when honesty, you have to kind of play the game.
You can't be honest because honestly, I want to say what
earth is wrong with you? Of course you can't just walk
over center stage because your next entrance is over there.
Like no. Use the closest.
Wing the closest wing, cross underneath.
It might be annoying to cross underneath whatever it is and
come on the other side. If we have a quick change and
there's a problem, we will talk about it.
But there isn't. You're just being lazy.
Now obviously I have to be a human being and I have to work
with this person for the next 6 months, so I can't be, let's
just say, honest. In that situation.
Because honestly, I want to say, what the fuck are you thinking?
But I have to be like, oh, well, actually it would work out much
better because everybody is leaving by the closest exit.
So actually there's quite a few people.
Maria is also crossing under the stage.
You could of course, cross under the stage.
You've got lots of time. Don't worry, that's what you
have to do. So sadly not all situations can
you be honest. No, you have to sometimes in
some situations kind of fluff up the edges, so to speak.
But it's absolutely also fine to say, I need everybody to please.
I need everybody to please use their closest exit.
You have time for a quick change.
And I think if in that scenario you've, you know, your, your
comment, your, your feedback is supported through logic, you
have time for your quick change. So please just use your closest
wing. Thank you.
Then if you just decide to discuss it with you further, you
can just pull her aside and say, listen, I appreciate it's easier
for you. Listen, you little shit, I
appreciate, I appreciate my tea is wearing off now.
I appreciate you have a quick change, but you do have time to
get across so you. Do have half an hour?
And in fact, we're deliberating whether to cut you from that
number so. Don't worry about it.
You've got half an hour and your quick change is a bonnet to a
hat. You're fine.
Well, in all honesty, I hope
that helps. If it didn't help, please don't
tell us because we can't handle the honesty.
Oh God no, don't tell me any harsh truths or any more
honesty. I want to happily live out my
days in delusional bliss with my herbal teas and the occasional
Marks and Sparks gin and tonic. All right, well, I will leave
you on some honesty and say this Limoncello spritz is doing the
trick, but it's far too sweet. And Denise, it's been a pleasure
yet again. I appreciate your honesty, thank
you for delivering that in a productive and positive way, and
I shall avoid having the limoncello spritz and stick to
my regular medicinal gins. So thank you everybody for
listening. Please make sure you are ready
for next week. We have a fantastic guest with
us. Next week we have the director
and CEO of Scottish Ballet. Christopher Thompson is with us
next. Oh.
How marvelous. That's going to be a riot.
Love him. So everybody, please check out
next week's episode. Stay tuned.
Love you lots, Denise. Lots of love, darling.