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Hello and welcome to Drinks at 
the Bar, a podcast where we 

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break through the 4th wall and 
discuss everything about dance 

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and the theater industry. 
My name is Paul James Rooney, a 

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dancer, choreographer and dance 
teacher based in Copenhagen, and

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I'm your host of Drinks at the 
Bar. 

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Here we discuss everything from 
hearing backstage stories, 

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touring shenanigans to deeper 
issues like body image training,

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the reality of being a freelance
dancer and much more. 

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Today I am very happy to be 
joined by someone who has the 

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most incredible feat, The arch, 
the line, stunning. 

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But seriously, it is such a 
privilege to be joined today by 

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the CEO and Artistic Director of
Scottish Ballet. 

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He was a soloist with English 
National Ballet where he also 

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worked extensively as a 
choreographer, creating several 

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ballets including The Nutcracker
and Double Concerto. 

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He has choreographed for the 
Royal New Zealand Ballet, 

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Atlanta Ballet, Ballet Black and
of course for Scottish Ballet. 

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In 2023 he was awarded ACBE for 
his services to dance in the 

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King's Birthday Honours List. 
Please join me in welcoming 

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Christopher Hampson. 
Hello, it's good to see you. 

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You too. 
Oh my God, it's been forever. 

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A long time, how you doing? 
I'm good. 

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I'm really good coming at the 
end of the summer so it's lovely

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evening still and before hard 
work starts again. 

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Oh, good stuff. 
It's beautiful here. 

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Really is. 
Really nice day. 

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You must be, you know, fully 
living and integrated into 

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Scottish life. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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Been here for 13 years but to be
honest I all of my childhood 

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holidays were up here because my
mum's Scottish. 

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Oh OK, yeah, that was the same 
as me. 

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All of my childhood holidays 
were in the grey summers. 

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Where were you? 
We were around Newton Moor and 

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Pit Lockery and all of that kind
of area. 

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Oh, Pit Lockery's lovely. 
I'm more West Coast so I'm 

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Greenock and Guruk down that 
way. 

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Oh fantastic, that's lovely. 
So I mean like tonight I'm I'm 

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finishing up the day after this 
and then I'll just log the dog 

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in the car and then down to the 
beach for the evening, watch the

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sunset. 
Oh, beautiful. 

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Absolutely beautiful. 
Well welcome. 

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It's so nice that you've taken 
the time out of your busy 

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schedule to have a little chat. 
I'm happy to. 

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Yeah, really happy to. 
Well, cheers are welcome. 

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Thank you. 
And I, I haven't got a drink. 

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That's terrible, isn't it? 
But I've still got the rest of 

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my day to go a bit. 
Oh OK, well I've got myself a 

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Lily and Tonics. 
There you go, that's a good 

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start. 
So I wanted to actually start 

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from the very beginning with 
you, Chris, 'cause I was looking

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at, you know, doing some 
research and learning some other

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stuff about you. 
And nowhere does it say anywhere

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on the Internet where you're 
from. 

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I was like, I could find out 
everything about your your 

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career and everything, but where
you're from I have no idea. 

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Oh should we, should we, should 
we bust the mix? 

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I'm from Manchester, was born in
Manchester. 

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OK. 
Yeah, and it's quite funny when 

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I'm in non-english speaking 
countries they'll often say oh, 

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you know, where's your accent 
from? 

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And of course it's completely 
new. 

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I say I've got BBC English 
because I was born in 

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Manchester, so I had a Mancunian
accent when I was on holiday in 

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Scotland. 
I affected a bit of a Scottish 

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accent when I went to London to 
the Royal Ballet School. 

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In those days you just got made 
so much fun of because you had a

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northern accent because it was 
those days, so it was just 

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quicker to lose it. 
So yeah, thanks, Royal Ballet 

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School. 
Well, exactly. 

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Also, being surrounded by 
Southerners and people from 

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different accents and everything
at ballet school, it just, yeah,

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everything. 
Everyone comes out with the same

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voice. 
It was and. 

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And in those days, yeah, that's 
dead, right. 

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And in those days there weren't 
that many people from the north 

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of England, that's for sure. 
But also, I think what's really 

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different now is, you know, you 
look on TV and radio and accents

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are really celebrated. 
Yeah. 

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So, you know, it's quite a 
different, yeah, just different 

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so. 
You grew up in Manchester, where

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you bang smack in the Were you a
city kid or were you on the 

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outskirts in suburbia or? 
Yeah, just on the outskirts in 

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suburbia, I would say. 
There was no ballet there, 

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that's for sure. 
Right, so how did you get 

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introduced to the world of dance
then? 

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You know, like lots of people, 
it's because someone else did 

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it. 
So my best friend from across 

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the road, Melissa, she got taken
to ballet classes. 

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I don't know, 4 some four or 
five, I don't know. 

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And so I don't want to play 
with. 

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I was like, well, I've just got 
taken as well. 

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And the story goes that she left
because she couldn't skip. 

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So I mean, what child can't 
skip? 

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But she left because she 
couldn't skip and I stayed on 

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because I could. 
And, and there we go. 

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And it's quite nice really, 
because I'm now I'm, I'm still 

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in touch with her. 
Oh really? 

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Yeah. 
So can she skip? 

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I don't know if she can skip, I 
think she probably had enough 

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drinks she could. 
So will you just go into your 

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local dance school and then your
teacher then told you about the 

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World Ballet School and did it 
kind of happen like that for 

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you, like kind of done for you 
in such? 

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Not at all, no. 
So went to local ballet school, 

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and that was a long time ago in 
Manchester. 

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A ballet company had just been 
founded called Northern Ballet, 

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Right? 
I'm that old. 

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Right on it. 
So it was celebrating its 10th 

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birthday in 1979. 
They were doing a production of 

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Madden Butterfly, and they 
needed a little boy to obviously

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be, you know, the son. 
So I was probably the only boy 

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there was really. 
So I was that boy. 

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And then I was in Northern 
Ballet productions every year 

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until I went to the Royal Ballet
School. 

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But also I think through that I 
was also involved in loads of 

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productions for visiting 
companies. 

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So like when the the Royal 
Ballet used to tour like around 

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the country? 
Yes. 

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And so I did that Romeo and 
Juliet. 

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I remember doing pirouette 
competitions with Stephen 

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Jeffries and Wayne Eagling and 
weird stuff when I was a little 

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kid. 
And then my my other kind of 

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really lovely memory was I'm 
just sitting, that's a beautiful

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picture of Rudolf Nureyev. 
And he had done a production for

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Boston Ballet, I think the Don 
Quixote. 

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And there's little kids in that.
And so I was one of those little

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kids. 
Oh, wow. 

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So I worked with him. 
Yeah. 

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It was, you know, being lifted 
off this car that got wheeled on

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by lifted off by him every 
night. 

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So in a weird way, I wanted to 
keep doing that more and more. 

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And the Royal Ballet School was 
the answer. 

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Right. 
OK. 

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It wasn't just because, you 
know, you were, because for 

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example, with me, I was at my 
local dance school and then the 

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teacher was, oh, maybe we should
try this. 

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Maybe we should try this. 
And it was never me hearing of 

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something and asking to go to 
the war ballet school. 

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Yeah, but I thought I was 
totally that way round. 

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Like I just knew I wanted to 
keep doing the stuff on stage. 

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And how do you do that? 
You need to get better. 

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So I want to go to that place. 
That's kind of how it went. 

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And so that was from the age of 
11 and you did all the way 

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through White Lodge. 
I did the whole thing, all of 

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it. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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I mean, I know I've got scars 
from being assessed out, but 

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it's also a blessing in disguise
to have a change of scenery 

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sometimes as well. 
Oh God, yeah. 

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Where did where did you go after
you? 

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Well, after I got kicked out, I 
went to Elmhurst and I think 

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when I was in my final year you 
came and choreographed on me. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Were you? 

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Was that James Barton's year as 
well? 

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James Barton was in the 
production, but he was the year 

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below me. 
Oh, fabulous. 

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Of such fond memories of doing 
that. 

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Yeah. 
Oh, my goodness. 

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Yeah. 
Alfreda invited me to do that. 

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It was lovely. 
And that love. 

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Mercier. 
Yes. 

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Mercy Hetherington. 
Mercy Hetherington. 

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Yeah. 
My God. 

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Oh, really nice. 
It was nice, that piece. 

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I remember the music. 
I really like music, Yeah. 

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I remember doing lots of 
Grangetes and there being this 

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whole like section with people 
crossing over the stage and like

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Canon Jetes and everything. 
It was beautiful. 

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Yeah, I think I just finished up
with concertos. 

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I was in a kind of using groups 
and playing with patterns and 

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that kind of headspace. 
Yeah. 

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Fantastic. 
Yeah. 

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Oh, my God. 
Yeah. 

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I mean, I do, you know, I 
remember at White Lodge, you 

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know, obviously some friends of 
mine were assessed out as well. 

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And a friend of mine, Emma, she 
reminded me recently, I just 

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bumped in for, you know, down in
London. 

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I was just sort of down there 
and she reminded me. 

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She said, oh, do you remember 
when I got assessed out and you 

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went, do you know what? 
It's probably the best thing 

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that could happen to you. 
And I was, I didn't actually, 

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But she, it was lovely hearing 
back what I'd said to her. 

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Yeah. 
Because it was about new 

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beginnings. 
And this isn't everything. 

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And, you know, it's just a 
thing. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Oh, God. 
I'd been about 12. 

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I was going. 
To say having that intelligence.

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Going on 50K. 
Already knitting at that point. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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Would you look back at your 
ballet school times with happy 

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memories? 
Are mixed because some of it was

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really great and some of it was 
really bad and everything in 

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between. 
But I guess, you know, look back

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on, you know, the people I was 
with that that we all got 

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through it together. 
And there's that sense of, you 

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know, all of us working in some 
way together to have a great 

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time and, and we did, you know, 
lots of really good things. 

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And whenever I look back on my 
time there, there are some 

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things that, you know, just 
weren't great. 

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And they just weren't, you know,
it was really unresearched 

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teaching and really kind of, you
know, a bit cowboy really some 

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of it that, I mean, I'm talking 
like 100 years ago now, so. 

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Yeah, of. 
Course so but then there were 

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things like silly things like 
our teacher, we were his first 

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year and he Russian and he just 
didn't speak English, so he just

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taught us in Russian. 
So I now can teach a class in 

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very bad Russian and Czech. 
So I've got good counting in 

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Russian Rastava 3 and then in in
Czech as well. 

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Yedim's very so quite similar, 
and I remember all the parts of 

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the body. 
Kalavar was the head, Ruki 

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Noigi, well, just cheap stuff 
that stayed with me, but it's 

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kind of quirky. 
It was a terrible situation, 

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some of it, but then some weird 
stuff came out of it. 

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They'd go, oh, that was kind of 
useful, some of. 

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It, I mean, we've spoken about, 
you know, with on this podcast 

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before that back then, even when
I was at school as well, lots of

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the teachers were just teaching 
how they were taught or just 

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relaying dance steps and 
relaying things how they think 

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you should teach. 
But it wasn't done through, you 

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know, learning how you should 
teach a child. 

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And I would say as well, Paul, 
not teaching the child in front 

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of you, that's what I look back 
on. 

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It was very much drill, kind of 
army drilled this. 

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This is what we all do and 
everyone has to fit this level 

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or this shape or that. 
It was, you know. 

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And this. 
If this correction doesn't work 

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for you, too bad. 
Yeah. 

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This is the correction. 
That's the absolutely, yeah. 

229
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,800
And I think I look back now on 
some of those teachers who were 

230
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,680
really fabulous and some who 
were not that fabulous and the 

231
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:21,640
less fabulous ones. 
It was just, I think there's no 

232
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,560
excuse really. 
I just think it was really lazy 

233
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,680
teaching because it wasn't 
really teaching. 

234
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:31,840
It was just repeating kind of 
learn, learn behaviours and 

235
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,040
learn knowledge. 
There was no discovery or 

236
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,880
curiosity. 
You know, I remember when I went

237
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,760
to White Lodge for the first, it
was, it was at least the first 

238
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,440
two weeks, but it felt like the 
first two months all we did was 

239
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,280
stand in a semi circle and say 
my name is Christopher Hampson 

240
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,520
and I'm from Manchester. 
Oh my God. 

241
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,440
I mean I was like what the fuck 
are we doing here? 

242
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,800
And I remember I was so homesick
and I used to phone my mum going

243
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:05,440
we've not done any ballet yet. 
It was, and coming from, you 

244
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:11,480
know, dancing on stage and being
around formers and oh God, it 

245
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,040
was a real let down that first 
year. 

246
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,000
I just was like, God, what am I 
doing? 

247
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,400
But you know, and then I met 
fabulous people around me and a 

248
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,440
fabulous yes of boys that we 
were in the year and yeah, then 

249
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,200
other, you know, great stuff 
happened about, you know, going 

250
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,720
into technique and learning 
about ballet. 

251
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:35,960
But yeah, Guy was yeah, weird. 
Already then, at school, you 

252
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,400
entered photographic 
competitions. 

253
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,680
Yeah, I did that at the Upper 
School. 

254
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,120
So for me, White Lodge, White 
Lodge is the right bumpy ride 

255
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,160
for me, right. 
But the Upper School, I felt I 

256
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,520
just sort of came alive there. 
It was really nice. 

257
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,480
I could be myself. 
I knew I was gay from forever. 

258
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,680
So that was really nice to just 
be me. 

259
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,880
Yes. 
And that, that was quite 

260
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,240
important that because it was, 
again, it was a very homophobic 

261
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,320
environment. 
Weird. 

262
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,360
And people just so shocked at 
that. 

263
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,080
But I'm sure you won't be. 
You think, God, you go to a 

264
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720
place where there's that 
acceptance within the 

265
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,040
profession. 
It's the most homophobic 

266
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,080
environment I've been in. 
Yeah. 

267
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,360
From teachers, from other, you 
know, pupils from, you know, 

268
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:26,960
bizarre, isn't it? 
So. 

269
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,600
But at the Upper School, the 
kind of sense of freedom it for 

270
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,200
different. 
Did you ask that in your 

271
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:33,360
training? 
I. 

272
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,600
Mean, yeah, I remember, you 
know, I mean the whole 

273
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,600
chauvinistic man, male ballet 
dancer that we all had to be. 

274
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,160
We all have to be this bum bum, 
bum bum bum bum, kind of. 

275
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,960
Pop a turban on. 
Exactly. 

276
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,720
But also, I mean, I've thought 
about it a lot and I think the 

277
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,920
the homophobia and the bullying 
from the other kids, it probably

278
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,520
stems from those kids back in 
their own local towns, the 

279
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,160
straight boys getting bullied 
for being gay from everybody 

280
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,440
around them because they're 
doing ballet. 

281
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,600
And so they're just kind of 
deflecting, which is an excuse, 

282
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,280
but. 
Yeah, and fear, you know, and 

283
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,480
all bullying comes from fear of 
something in within a person. 

284
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,480
And also for me, like I didn't 
know I was gay from a really 

285
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,280
young age. 
So for me, when I realized that 

286
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,480
I was gay, suddenly I'm like, 
oh, those people were right all 

287
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,840
along. 
So I think maybe there's that 

288
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,360
thing from the straight boys as 
well, from everyone calling them

289
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,640
gay all the times they do 
ballet, that fear of. 

290
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,120
But am I? 
You keep on saying I am. 

291
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,760
Am I actually gay? 
I don't know. 

292
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,960
Yeah. 
And then the kind of then the 

293
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,800
ballet stereotype kicks in where
you know, that, yeah, like you 

294
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,680
say, that kind of masculinity 
that's only a set to 100. 

295
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,800
Yeah. 
You know, all the time. 

296
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,280
Yeah. 
Yeah, there is that bravado, 

297
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,920
male lead, principal dancer and 
that's it. 

298
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,480
Yeah, that's all there was, 
yeah. 

299
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,440
Yeah, up until very recently. 
Thank God it's all shifting and 

300
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,320
evolving. 
It's really good. 

301
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,160
Oh yes, yes. 
Oh, it's fantastic to be able to

302
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,400
go to go to school now and be 
able to have dancers in 

303
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,600
companies around the world and, 
you know, see different versions

304
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,880
of what a male dancer is, 
whether that be quality, whether

305
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,840
that be technique, whether that 
be body type, character. 

306
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,920
Yeah. 
It's an exciting time for kids 

307
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,240
to go to school, I think, and 
have people in companies that 

308
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,200
are male in very different ways.
So being able to be more 

309
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,360
comfortable with yourself and 
more free in upper school, 

310
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,320
that's when you decided to start
looking into being creative 

311
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,160
yourself as a. 
Choreographer or yeah, 

312
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,320
absolutely. 
And we, I think like most kids, 

313
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,200
we had to do some choreography 
for a GCSE. 

314
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,880
So I think I did that. 
But Norman Morris and David Drew

315
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,440
were my choreographic tutors. 
Oh my God, they were amazing. 

316
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,600
Good cop, bad cop and but you 
know, really great. 

317
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,640
They they just met for me. 
They made-up their pairing, sort

318
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,440
of made-up a total person for 
me, total tutor. 

319
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,640
And they suggest, did I put 
something into the Ursula Morton

320
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,280
competition, which is the Royal 
Ballet Schools internal 

321
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,880
choreography competition. 
And it's the first piece ever 

322
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,319
made and it got third. 
So I was like, oh, that's that 

323
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,480
then. 
No, I really did. 

324
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,800
I enjoyed the ability to express
movement and and discover 

325
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,520
movement with people, with 
colleagues and friends. 

326
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:38,000
And yeah, I remember the 
choreography I won it with was 

327
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:45,920
was judged by Kenneth McMillan 
that year and it I'd chosen 2 

328
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:51,360
cabarets, sort of Kurt Vile 
cabaret songs and I'd called it 

329
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,360
Dasis de sexuala Herderskite. 
That is sexual compulsion. 

330
00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,120
I won it that year. 
So I think you quite like the 

331
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,920
naughtiness. 
And yes, I do. 

332
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,880
And I remember him sort of 
saying, do you know what? 

333
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,920
Because there were these German 
songs, and he said, do you know 

334
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,720
what they mean? 
And I said, yeah, yeah, I've 

335
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,520
read the translation. 
And he said, yeah, good. 

336
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,680
Because they're dirty, you guys.
I think he quite liked it. 

337
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,920
I mean, he's kind of known for 
his drama and his. 

338
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,280
Yeah, yeah, there is a 
naughtiness I think to. 

339
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,320
A gritty. 
Yeah, yeah. 

340
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,680
So I quite love, but I loved it.
And they did it in the school 

341
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,720
show that year as well, so it 
was really nice. 

342
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,360
Wow. 
To see it dance with lots of 

343
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:39,960
different people too. 
Yeah. 

344
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,840
So I yeah, probably, you know, 
compared to other people that 

345
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,600
were choreographing around me, I
was a bit late to the party, but

346
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,280
right. 
I mean Class 16 is not late, is 

347
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:51,520
it? 
No, exactly. 

348
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:54,520
Yeah, I mean, come on. 
What? 

349
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,320
You've been doing for the last 
16 years, but yeah. 

350
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,040
But did that, did it spark 
anything in you then about 

351
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,800
possibilities of a career as a 
choreographer? 

352
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,960
Or were you still thinking 
dancer? 

353
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:15,120
I think it sparked to me the 
possibility of other right. 

354
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,480
So I did still want to dance and
I did want to I had, you know, 

355
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,960
lots of choreographers I wish to
dance and all of that. 

356
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,840
But I thought this is great 
because there's something else I

357
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,040
can do as well, right. 
OK. 

358
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:36,360
And I remember feeling this 
ability to be once removed in 

359
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,680
that space. 
And I really liked what you can 

360
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,000
see when you're removed slightly
from the doing. 

361
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,320
Yes, yeah. 
So like that. 

362
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,640
And also knowing, you know, when
you're choreographing on your 

363
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,200
schoolmates, they're known for 
what they can do in ballet 

364
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,800
class. 
And in that solo, they're 

365
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,000
learning, of course, you know 
them as a person, a rounded 

366
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,880
human being. 
So being able to explore. 

367
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,000
That and dance and bring it and 
out in them and dance that I 

368
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,560
really loved. 
Felt like a gift. 

369
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,640
Felt like giving someone a gift.
And I mean, just because you 

370
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,960
said that I have to jump 
forward, is that something that 

371
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,120
you have found different when 
you're choreographing, for 

372
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,960
example, for Scottish Ballet 
that you obviously know 

373
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,720
everybody E&B when you were 
there as well, you knew 

374
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:24,760
everybody. 
Is it? 

375
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,320
Do you find that being a benefit
to when you go and work for, I 

376
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,720
don't know, Atlanta Ballet? 
That way you don't know the 

377
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,320
people as well? 
Oh, you know, it's a bit of 

378
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,520
both. 
I think when you know people 

379
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,120
really well, yes, that side of 
it that you can access, you 

380
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,320
know, parts of their personality
that maybe even they don't 

381
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,400
notice you can bring to the fore
and and explore. 

382
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,320
But also that familiarity breeds
contempt thing where actually 

383
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,720
you kind of sometimes know 
someone a bit too much, you 

384
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,320
know, what their abilities are 
and there are not or what their 

385
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,280
personality might, might walk 
away from rather than walk 

386
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,720
towards. 
And so when I was choreographing

387
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,640
on companies where I didn't know
the dancers or I, you know, go 

388
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,440
and work with people I don't 
know, there's a wonderful kind 

389
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,600
of freshness where they also 
don't know me. 

390
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,280
They don't know me as well. 
Whereas when you're working on 

391
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,120
your colleagues, boy, do they 
know you too. 

392
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,200
So, yeah, it's, you know, swings
and roundabouts. 

393
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,000
You know, it's like teaching 
though, isn't it? 

394
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,320
You know, when you teach people 
that you know really well, 

395
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,520
there's that you can get a lot 
done because there's a way in. 

396
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,000
But also, you can't get a lot 
done because they know you in a 

397
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,960
way that perhaps when someone 
new comes in, they can say 

398
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,560
exactly the same thing and 
suddenly everyone goes, Oh yeah,

399
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:50,000
I've never heard that before. 
Yeah, yeah, because there is 

400
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,720
that. 
I mean, especially when I've 

401
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,680
taught company class to your 
colleagues and then, yeah, they 

402
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,240
don't listen to a correction as 
much as they will to some 

403
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,600
fabulous. 
Guest teacher or just a guest 

404
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,120
teacher? 
Sometimes they don't need to be 

405
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:06,120
fabulous. 
It's just. 

406
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,960
Oh my gosh, yeah. 
It's true though, isn't it? 

407
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:18,280
It is, yeah. 
So when you graduated, you 

408
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,720
finished the Royal Ballet 
School? 

409
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,240
Yeah. 
E&B. 

410
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,960
Yeah. 
Straight away you got into 

411
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,040
English, National Ballet. 
And what was your your first 

412
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,840
thoughts of joining the company?
Well, it was a weird route 

413
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,800
because I'd done an extra year 
at the Royal Ballet School 

414
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,800
hoping to get into the Royal 
Ballet, and that didn't happen. 

415
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,720
So it's really, you know, eight 
years. 

416
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,840
And so that, yeah, you can't 
help but feel something about 

417
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,920
that, of course. 
And I went, funnily enough, the 

418
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,840
first company I, I auditioned 
for was Scottish Ballet, 

419
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,120
ironically, and they didn't have
any contracts. 

420
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,760
And then I went down to EMB. 
So I kind of went to EMB. 

421
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,600
And I remember Betty Anderson 
was when the Royal Ballet School

422
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,560
was at the Tollgarthrates 
Company and the school together.

423
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,760
And I remember Betty Anderson 
stopping me in the corridor and 

424
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,960
saying, Hampi, you are going to 
the best company in the world 

425
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,000
and you're going to love it. 
Fantastic. 

426
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,800
And I thought that was so 
amazing. 

427
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,560
And she was right. 
I. 

428
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:18,920
Mean that. 
Yeah. 

429
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,280
It is also of a time period 
because it still was when I was 

430
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,040
there of they kind of don't. 
They didn't mention any other 

431
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,800
companies. 
You were geared to go to the 

432
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,280
water ballet company and that's 
it. 

433
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,920
Yeah. 
There wasn't a actually Chris 

434
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,440
looks more like an EMB dancer or
so and so would really fit 

435
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,520
Scapino or whatever it is. 
There was a royal or nothing. 

436
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,160
Yeah, pretty much. 
So it's kind of interesting to, 

437
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,920
you know, note that when I got 
to EMB, it was it was instantly 

438
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,640
rewarding and atomic and meeting
dancers with such different 

439
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,800
backgrounds and trainings and 
nationalities and cultural 

440
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,640
differences and oh God, it was 
exhilarating. 

441
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,800
I loved it. 
I can imagine because also back 

442
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,680
in, you know, in the 90s, that 
company was really Spanish, 

443
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,840
Italian, Australian. 
It was so many different 

444
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,440
nationality. 
I mean, I'm sure it still is 

445
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,240
now, but like it, it really was.
Yeah, I think especially in that

446
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,280
context of that time, it was, 
you know, it, it was just the 

447
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,360
best of everywhere, I always 
felt. 

448
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,400
And the point of difference, and
that still I think applies today

449
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,920
with EMB. 
There's a point of difference, 

450
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,520
you know, at the Royal Ballet 
you can see an credible heritage

451
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,800
of repertoire and a host of 
voices that they have curated, 

452
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,960
and Embd is no really different,
which is great. 

453
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,680
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's a good thing. 

454
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,600
Yeah, completely. 
Because, you know, like Northern

455
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,760
Ballet does something different,
like Scottish Ballet does 

456
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,520
something different. 
There is place for everything. 

457
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,720
And obviously E&B just suited 
you really well. 

458
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,000
If you had that kind of euphoria
feeling as soon as you started 

459
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,760
the company, you just went, oh, 
this feels right. 

460
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,760
And also it was, you know, just 
talking to you now, reflecting, 

461
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,720
I'm like, God, it was fabulous. 
Because he leaves the Royal 

462
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,560
Ballet School in those days, you
know, must preface. 

463
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,480
In those days, he left the Royal
Ballet School and you say, name 

464
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,400
an English choreographer and you
just said Ashton and McMillan. 

465
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,600
Yeah. 
And immediately going to ENB, it

466
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,160
was Ronnie Hynde, Chris Bruce, 
Ben Stevenson. 

467
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,520
You know, all of a sudden I was 
like, oh, there's loads of other

468
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,760
choreographers here. 
You know, it was, it was 

469
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,760
wonderful and they just having 
my mind opened up that way. 

470
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,760
It's great. 
But do you think you you noticed

471
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,480
that because you were already 
interested in the broader sense 

472
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,880
of dance as a whole, not just as
a dancer, you're also then 

473
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,520
interested in the creation and 
the choreography, so you maybe 

474
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,400
had your your feelers out a bit 
more than other dancers. 

475
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,280
Maybe. 
I think I've always been like 

476
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,760
that though, and I think from 
what my friend was saying, well,

477
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,520
balance the card just always had
this kind of outside eye, 

478
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:05,080
someone who's had a, a sense of 
perspective about things always 

479
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,800
even going through school. 
So that I think when I joined 

480
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,600
DMB that just got broader and 
broader. 

481
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400
It was lovely. 
And I, I got really interested 

482
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,320
in how a touring company works. 
Like what does that? 

483
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,160
How does that function? 
You know, and I was always, you 

484
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,200
know, create, always creating, 
always just pulling dancers 

485
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,960
aside and going. 
Can I just do a piece on you 

486
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,360
really quickly and staying late?
Yeah, just, yeah, really just I 

487
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,880
like to think, I'll look back 
now and I like to think I was 

488
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,440
really getting the most I 
possibly could out of every 

489
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,640
minute there. 
So from straight away you were 

490
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,400
already playing around, 
choreographing straight away. 

491
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,560
Yeah, immediately. 
And they did a sort of 

492
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,960
choreographic workshop which 
they hadn't done before. 

493
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,240
And I've got sneaky suspicion 
Lynn Wallace was the ballet 

494
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,840
mistress at the time. 
I think she might have done it 

495
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,600
for me. 
Well, that's nice. 

496
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,200
It's. 
Really nice. 

497
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,800
And, you know, and Lynn Lynn's 
always supported, you know, me 

498
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,360
over the years and that was 
really lovely. 

499
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:10,880
I think. 
I sort of think she did. 

500
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,360
And she set that up because I 
was coming in and. 

501
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,360
Yeah. 
And I just kept doing little 

502
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:20,480
pieces and then they started 
using them for galas and 

503
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,640
fundraisers and. 
So it wasn't you yourself going 

504
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,800
up to the the what do you call 
it the management and asking I 

505
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,840
would like to have a go kind of 
thing it was. 

506
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,520
Oh, God, no. 
I've been waiting forever to do 

507
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,200
that. 
No, I just used to do. 

508
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,240
Just do and do and do. 
And then. 

509
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Yeah. 
And my director is Derek Dean. 

510
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,680
By then, Ivan Nash had brought 
me into the company, and then 

511
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,480
Derek took the company on and, 
you know, he gave me my first. 

512
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,880
But yeah, he saw these pieces I 
think I'd do for galas. 

513
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,960
And, you know, he'd say, yeah, 
well, Hampi can do a fundraising

514
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,600
gala or whatever. 
So yeah. 

515
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000
And then he gave me my very 
first one act ballet. 

516
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,720
Oh, wow. 
I do people know I'm Hampi. 

517
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,160
They probably don't as my that's
my nickname at school. 

518
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,000
Everybody listening Christopher 
Hampson, Hampy I. 

519
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,520
Mean not many people call it me 
now, but from a really from a 

520
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,200
certain era they do because that
there was so many. 

521
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,240
There was me. 
There was so many Christopher's.

522
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,520
It must have been name at the 
time. 

523
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,000
There was Christopher Wheeldon 
and me in the same year when I 

524
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,240
joined EMB. 
There was Christopher Powney and

525
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,080
Christian Duncan. 
Christopher Bruce was working 

526
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,080
with us. 
So I remember Lynn just saying 

527
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,800
what do they call you at school?
You got a nickname or something.

528
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,400
So that stuck with me for the 
whole of E MB. 

529
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,040
I mean, I, I, I knew you was 
happy as well, like. 

530
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,480
That's all right. 
So yeah, it's kind of, I can 

531
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,960
kind of date people by what they
call me in every sense. 

532
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,880
So I would have, obviously, I 
think that my first time I ran 

533
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,400
into you would have been as a 
child in EMB, yeah. 

534
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,880
But I remember. 
You I used the word child very 

535
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,320
loosely. 
I was 16, everybody else was 

536
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,040
like 12. 
But because I was short, there 

537
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:18,960
was were. 
You 16. 

538
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,240
Derek was still using me in his 
Nutcracker because he was like, 

539
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,320
he's well, he's done it for 
three years. 

540
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,120
He still looks the same age. 
Everyone around me was like 12 

541
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,400
years old. 
And then there's just me. 

542
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Yeah, I remember. 
You remember that Nutcracker? 

543
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,520
Yeah, my God. 
With like Nadine and Kiara. 

544
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,440
Oh yes. 
Oh yeah. 

545
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,960
It's a nice company it. 
Was it was and also as a child 

546
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,920
it was so welcoming. 
Oh, that's nice to. 

547
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,000
Know. 
Yeah, because as I mean, I did 

548
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,320
Nutcracker Roman, Juliet and 
Swan Lake as a kid. 

549
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,960
Yeah, kid. 
And like, you know, my mum was 

550
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,040
Michaela and Clara and all 
these. 

551
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,800
People. 
Oh, really lovely people. 

552
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,800
Joe Clark, Nadine. 
Yeah, really lovely. 

553
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,680
I ended up working with Nadine 
again over here in Denmark, 

554
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,320
which was very strange. 
Like, you know, we both, we both

555
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,440
grow up. 
She leaves the and B and I move 

556
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,640
over to Denmark. 
I get a job here and the first 

557
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,080
people I see in the company is 
Kiara and Nadine. 

558
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,240
Kiara Ferry, yeah. 
Yeah. 

559
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,760
Oh, we send them both, my love. 
I will do. 

560
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,960
They're back in England now, but
they were here for years. 

561
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,120
I remember they were both in 
perpetuum mobile A my first ever

562
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,440
ballet. 
Oh, both of them. 

563
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,640
They're both sweethearts. 
Yeah. 

564
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,960
Oh, lovely. 
Oh, how sweet. 

565
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,160
God, that's amazing. 
God, we did. 

566
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:53,080
So that thing when you were with
E&B dancing as a kid, that's 

567
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,680
what I had between the ages of 6
and 10. 

568
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,680
Yeah. 
So I had that feeling. 

569
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,120
Yeah. 
It's lovely. 

570
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,280
Really nice, isn't it? 
Isn't it lovely? 

571
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,280
I just remember thinking, 
Christ, people do this for a 

572
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,840
living. 
Like how brilliant is that? 

573
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,880
Adults do this for a living. 
And I remember thinking that 

574
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,280
really strongly and just 
thinking, I'll do that. 

575
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,280
That's what I want to do. 
I think it wasn't until, yeah, 

576
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000
exactly when I started working 
with the company as a child, I 

577
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,840
started realizing, oh, that's 
what this training is doing. 

578
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,720
I'm doing that. 
I'm heading towards that because

579
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,360
I think I was just training to 
be better at something that I 

580
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,800
was, you know, talented at or 
had an interest in and didn't 

581
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,360
really at a very young age put 
two and two together that oh, 

582
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,720
I'm doing. 
I'm heading towards a job. 

583
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,600
It was just becoming a better 
ballet dancer. 

584
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,640
God, Paul, that's amazing 
because I've not, I've not ever 

585
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,640
thought of it that way round. 
So I'm hearing something really 

586
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,520
new here because on my 
experiences, my experience was 

587
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,520
knowing the job first with with 
young and working towards that. 

588
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,160
But then there's so many roots 
to what we do, which is 

589
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,840
fascinating. 
So it's amazing to hear, you 

590
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,480
know, you sort of progressing 
and really thinking, well, I'm 

591
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,560
going to get better at this and 
better at this and then finding 

592
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,120
an outlet for it, it sounds 
like. 

593
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,760
Because it, because I think it 
was it because even though I did

594
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,720
like, you know, your local panto
or whatever, like I did and I 

595
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,360
was one of the little dwarfs in 
the war ballast one late before 

596
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,200
White Lodge, I again, it was 
just, it wasn't anything in my 

597
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,360
mind about a job. 
There was no, I thought. 

598
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,440
There's no thought there. 
Oh. 

599
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,600
I love that. 
No thought, but lots of passion.

600
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,000
Exactly. 
That's all it was. 

601
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,440
That's. 
Amazing. 

602
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,080
So we have to talk a little bit 
about you as a dancer, because 

603
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,800
you were as well, a beautiful 
dancer. 

604
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,520
Oh, thank you. 
I liked dancing for a while. 

605
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,400
Yeah. 
And I really enjoyed it. 

606
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,480
And I think, you know, I quite, 
I don't mind saying I've really 

607
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,240
natural facility. 
I mean, you know, legs and feet 

608
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:17,240
weren't half bad. 
Understatement. 

609
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,600
And to be honest, thanks for 
that. 

610
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,360
That particular Russian 
technique that I was working 

611
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,080
with, with Anna Holly and with 
German, it had a really strong 

612
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,640
groundings, a really good 
knowledge of classical ballet. 

613
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,480
So the body could really just 
could really explore it. 

614
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:38,120
I think I, I look back, I love 
dancing the Balanchine stuff. 

615
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,720
And weirdly, for such a sort of 
lanky dance, I was very long 

616
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,520
limbed. 
Still am. 

617
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,120
But you know, long, really long,
stupidly ridiculously long legs 

618
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,960
and a really stupidly short 
body. 

619
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,320
Just having all of those kind of
long extremities, I could move 

620
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,800
really quickly. 
Right. 

621
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,800
Yes. 
But I love moving at speed, 

622
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,520
which is quite unusual. 
I think most people thought it 

623
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,440
was quite slow, languid, adarchy
kind of dancer. 

624
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,040
And I didn't. 
I used to love really fast 

625
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,960
footwork and really technical 
stuff and my I used to love 

626
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,280
dancing etudes. 
It's just my favorite thing to 

627
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,440
dance because it's just super 
technical. 

628
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,440
Beautiful. 
But you know, being really 

629
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,040
honest, I even, I didn't last 
long on stage because about the 

630
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,719
age I was doing more and more 
choreography. 

631
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,560
And so I, I was on my, my third 
ballet and I just, I just 

632
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,719
remember not feeling excited 
about going on stage and 

633
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,960
thinking, Oh, this isn't right 
anymore. 

634
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,719
OK. 
And I even, not just the on 

635
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,960
stage stuff, but even, you know,
the rigor of class and 

636
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,199
rehearsals, they took a 
different, they just, they 

637
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:58,240
started to feel different. 
And I was feeling super 

638
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,560
independent choreographically 
and really independent in my 

639
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,040
thinking. 
And I was exploring what that 

640
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,720
meant for me. 
And that probably didn't land 

641
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:15,360
well in a, you know, a kind of 
classical core driven company, 

642
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,120
that sense of individuality. 
And yeah, yeah, it was growing 

643
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,400
up, I think. 
But it sounds like it all was it

644
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040
all happened at the same time, 
the individuality of of the 

645
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,320
mindset, but also the the 
changing of am I interested in 

646
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,600
being that athlete and putting 
my body through this every day. 

647
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,440
It kind of everything was like. 
Yeah. 

648
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,960
It was all around the same time 
that that interest shifted. 

649
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,640
That's right. 
And so in my summer holidays I 

650
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,920
would do galas with Wayne, sleep
and direct stuff and go and do 

651
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,200
choreograph for summer schools 
and things. 

652
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,480
Yes. 
And then I'd come back and be 

653
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,520
like, oh, I'm doing Swan Lake 
again. 

654
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,160
And you know, nothing against 
Swan Lake, but that just I 

655
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,640
needed something. 
I need something needed to 

656
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,320
change so. 
It's kind of like done. 

657
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,320
Thank you. 
Something else? 

658
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,040
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

659
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,440
I remembered and, you know, 
remember going to see Derek and 

660
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,920
telling him, and he wrote me the
most beautiful note, I mean, 

661
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,560
really generous note to say, you
know, how talented he thought I 

662
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,680
was and, you know, anything he 
could do to help. 

663
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,480
And it was really encouraging, 
you know. 

664
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,520
So yeah, I, I just was so 
excited to just get going in 

665
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:38,160
that freelance world and knowing
that I could, if it had all gone

666
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:43,320
wrong, I could still Chuck the 
tights on and I could still walk

667
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,160
the walk and talk the talk on 
stage. 

668
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,720
Oh yeah, yeah. 
You weren't trying to do it as a

669
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,720
out of shape 50 year old or 
something. 

670
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,080
It was quite young. 
Still, yeah, not that reckless, 

671
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,800
but still had no job to go to. 
I had to kind of make my career,

672
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,040
but I had I had some commissions
lined up. 

673
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,240
Had you choreographed outside of
EMB whilst you were in EMB 

674
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,320
company for companies? 
Obviously you've done the summer

675
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,680
schools and different vocational
schools. 

676
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,880
Yeah, not, not for companies. 
And my first one was rural New 

677
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,800
Zealand ballet after I left. 
Oh wow. 

678
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,080
Yeah, OK. 
After I left EMB. 

679
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,440
So yeah, that's not terrible, is
it? 

680
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,720
Like it's the first. 
I was going to say, I was going 

681
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:27,240
to say was do you, do you think 
there was something different in

682
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:30,560
that piece that you created 
being your first piece out of 

683
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,160
being a dancer and being in the 
establishment and everything and

684
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,120
suddenly being a freelancer? 
Is there anything you can see in

685
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,440
that piece that you created for 
Rome, New Zealand that was 

686
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,680
different? 
Yeah, there in, there's a real 

687
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,120
sense of energy in it. 
So I felt probably revitalised, 

688
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,000
different. 
We were talking about that 

689
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,800
earlier, different set of 
people, a new discovery. 

690
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,440
They didn't know me, I didn't 
know them. 

691
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,760
So there was no baggage, whether
it is occupational or emotional.

692
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,880
Yeah, I can see some real vigor 
and energy in it. 

693
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,880
Yeah, I loved it. 
I mean, Christ. 

694
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,080
Well, an amazing thing to do 
just to go halfway around the 

695
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,920
world and do the ballet. 
And, you know, I've stopped off 

696
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,040
at, you know, in Hong Kong 
Ballet and taught there and I 

697
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,480
started teaching company Class A
lot, which is a really good way.

698
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,040
It was just a good way for me to
get to know the dancers, really.

699
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,600
Yeah, because then you can see 
you, you can kind of slip little

700
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,880
steps in here and there into 
company class just to see what 

701
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,920
people can do and see this 
people's. 

702
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,520
Yeah, how open they are and. 
It's that it's, it's, it's 

703
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,680
understanding who people are in 
that space and seeing those that

704
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,600
may be, you know, when I teach 
class, sometimes I can sense 

705
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,200
people are perhaps less forward 
about their abilities, but I can

706
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,720
see something I can, if I'm 
teaching class, I can see if 

707
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,160
that if I can get something out 
of that. 

708
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,120
And then I can also see those 
that are absolutely in my face 

709
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,600
and sometimes have nothing to 
back it up with. 

710
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,520
So it's got look at me, look at 
me, look at me. 

711
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,800
Yeah. 
And it's not they got nothing to

712
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,040
back out of. 
It's just that's where it ends. 

713
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,440
Sometimes it is just look at me,
which has its place, you know. 

714
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,520
So I have to find where, where's
that place for them, you know? 

715
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,720
So during this freelance time 
you were contacted by Raymond 

716
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,160
Gubby I'm guessing? 
Yes. 

717
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,040
Oh, Raymond's a bit very good 
friend and has become a good 

718
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,080
friend, yeah. 
And you were then asked to do 

719
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,840
the Johann Strauss gala. 
Yeah, I still to this day one of

720
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480
my most favorite gigs. 
It's one of my favorite gigs 

721
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:41,960
gigs as well. 
Oh. 

722
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:43,040
That's nice. 
Yeah. 

723
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,680
It was so much fun. 
And again, I, what I think I 

724
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,720
really liked about it was that I
think I was one of the youngest 

725
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:55,200
people and I wasn't young young,
you know, I was mid 20s and then

726
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,880
everybody else was older. 
That was great being having like

727
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,920
Lucy Burns and Julianne and 
Michael Budd and Laurian and all

728
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,040
these people that were like 
slightly older than me. 

729
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,920
I just loved it. 
It was a good gig. 

730
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,680
It was a good gig, wasn't it? 
I loved it because we could, you

731
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,880
know, there was a template in a 
sense, you know, that you had to

732
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,920
deliver a certain amount of, you
know, that Venie style. 

733
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,360
Yeah, But we could be free to 
kind of interpret it. 

734
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,960
It was always at Christmas time,
and rehearsals were great. 

735
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,480
I loved teaching class. 
We did club class. 

736
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,400
We did class. 
Maybe you would put on like 

737
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,040
basement jacks and we would just
do like the whole bar. 

738
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,880
The whole album, Wouldn't we? 
Or Madonna, when she did that 

739
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,960
happen that, you know, through 
proposed Apple one hung up, 

740
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,400
yeah, but hung up. 
Yeah, I remember. 

741
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,560
We do Class 2 basement jacks, 
hung up or scissors. 

742
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,760
As yeah. 
I still do that. 

743
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,320
It's amazing. 
When we tour internationally, 

744
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:52,920
sometimes we can't take a 
pianist. 

745
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,760
And you know, if it's just a 
warm up class just to get people

746
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,080
going after a long journey, I'll
say we're going to do club 

747
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,000
class. 
And that's I still do some of 

748
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,920
those, but it's a slightly 
different mix now. 

749
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,000
But it's it's, you know, you can
tell it's one of those things 

750
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,360
that you do when it's like a 
we've got a choreograph, so many

751
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,840
numbers today. 
We've got to get through it. 

752
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,960
So let's just do a class that 
this class today is just about 

753
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,120
getting the blood going and 
that's it. 

754
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,520
Getting a focus for the day. 
I just remember sometimes 

755
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,800
though, with those Johann 
Strauss waltzes, I used to stand

756
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,320
in the middle of the room going,
I do not know what to do. 

757
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,200
I was like, how many more times 
can I find a new way to waltz? 

758
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,520
But. 
We did because also we were, we 

759
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,760
were performing on stages that 
you know, the Barbican great. 

760
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,560
But then when we'd have you'd 
have to perform on then what's 

761
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:45,800
it? 
Birmingham is it? 

762
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,840
Constable. 
Which was just like so skinny 

763
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,040
but really wide. 
And then the next day you'd be 

764
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,880
in something which is a postage 
stamp, but then you're at the 

765
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,040
Barbican. 
Like you have to have a 

766
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,120
choreography that can just fit 
anywhere. 

767
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,960
I loved it. 
I'm really glad you enjoyed it 

768
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:02,200
because I loved it. 
I really did. 

769
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,960
I had AI had a great time doing 
that, that contract, I think it 

770
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,680
was what I felt was nice about 
it is that, you know, the 

771
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,240
majority of the audience were 
coming to listen to the music 

772
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,000
and see some pretty waltzing, 
which kind of let us be 

773
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,360
adventurous because as long as 
we were delivering what they 

774
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,560
would get out of it, then you 
can play even more. 

775
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,680
And yeah. 
Did you, Did we do that one, 

776
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,200
Paul, where I did the love 
affair, The letter? 

777
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:32,920
Yes, going across. 
The stage that see, I loved 

778
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,720
doing that, getting a bit of a 
gay romance in there. 

779
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:40,000
And I remember Raymond just 
loving it and all that would 

780
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,120
have never have got past me if 
you tried. 

781
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,320
But he could see, you know, he 
could see the reaction it got. 

782
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,760
I loved it it. 
Was lovely. 

783
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,480
It was really nice. 
And obviously it. 

784
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,800
Yeah, it's really good memories.
And one of the best things about

785
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,520
that that job was the fact that 
the majority of people in the 

786
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,400
job were musicians. 
So the dancers were the 

787
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,320
minorities. 
So we got treated like 

788
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,600
musicians. 
Yeah. 

789
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,600
So we got our own rooms on tour.
Oh. 

790
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,440
My God. 
No, it's it's those things make 

791
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,000
a difference. 
They make a difference. 

792
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,920
Not having to share a room with 
some random dancer makes a 

793
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,480
difference. 
It does. 

794
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,120
It. 
Does, yeah. 

795
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Those tiny perks? 
I know I but I'm just going to 

796
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,760
the those fab little theatres in
little concert halls and things.

797
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,880
I loved it. 
I did, I really did. 

798
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,080
And I learnt so much on that job
as well, just about directing 

799
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,240
and you know how to how to be 
agile in really strange 

800
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,480
circumstances sometimes. 
Also you were, you were really 

801
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,680
involved in also the, you know, 
David, the conductor in all of 

802
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,960
his speeches and how he reacted 
to the dancers on stage and how 

803
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,920
he delivered his speeches and 
all this kind of stuff. 

804
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,880
It wasn't just choreographing 
so. 

805
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,800
Yeah, no, I loved it. 
Yeah. 

806
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,440
Happy times. 
So you're choreographing, you're

807
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,600
gallivanting around Scottish 
Ballet. 

808
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,960
Yeah. 
What? 

809
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:08,480
How? 
Why? 

810
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,720
When? 
What, how, why, when? 

811
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:18,840
So what happened was I guess I 
was in a place I'd, I, I had 

812
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,760
started to that same feeling I 
had about the dancing, thinking 

813
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,480
how much more can I do with 
this? 

814
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:30,680
I was starting to feel that 
freelancing as a choreographer 

815
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:36,680
and teacher, and it was around I
used, I was watching what 

816
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,840
directors were doing because I 
was, that's the great privilege 

817
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,240
of freelancing as you get to see
what everyone else is doing. 

818
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,320
So I did see some directors 
doing really good stuff, and I 

819
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,080
saw directors doing stuff. 
You wouldn't what not to do. 

820
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,560
Yeah, and everything in between 
and so and then I noticed some 

821
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,920
directors sort of go, Chris, 
what would you do? 

822
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,760
What y'all got a problem? 
What, what do you think? 

823
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,920
Which was really lovely to be 
trusted. 

824
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,760
And then I start to think, well,
I wonder what that would feel 

825
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,880
like. 
I wonder what impact I might 

826
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,160
have on a company if I, you 
know, lead with my values. 

827
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,920
And I think just Scottish Ballet
arrived at the right time in my 

828
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,240
life. 
And I think they were looking 

829
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:24,000
for something and I was looking 
for something. 

830
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,160
And it was a bit like a perfect 
match, really, Yeah. 

831
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,520
So what what was it that you 
thought was? 

832
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,680
Was it just, you know, needing a
change and wanting some 

833
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,640
stability or? 
No, it wasn't that I was. 

834
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,160
I was fine with the uncertainty 
of that freelance life. 

835
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:48,320
It was, it really was about if I
could just keep doing what I do 

836
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,840
with a group of people. 
I wonder where that might take 

837
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,720
us all. 
You know, it was more that I 

838
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:59,840
guess the sense of stability in 
that that or a sense of 

839
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,040
continuity maybe. 
Yeah, yeah. 

840
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,520
That I didn't keep having to 
start again and I as it won't 

841
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,200
surprise you, you know, I, I've 
always been quite forward 

842
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,680
leaning and quite progressive 
and so I just thought, well, 

843
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,320
what happens when you get a 
group of people that want to do 

844
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,680
that with you? 
How far can you go and what 

845
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,320
might we achieve? 
So that really interested me and

846
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:29,160
I think that I think that's what
they saw in me at that time and.

847
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,640
Then obviously as a director, on
top of everything else that you 

848
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,200
have to do artistically, 
suddenly there's another job 

849
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,760
that you can lean into, which is
cool. 

850
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,760
This is a great idea for a 
ballet. 

851
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,080
I don't want to make it. 
This person should make it or 

852
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,520
that must be. 
That's part of the job. 

853
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,280
Exactly. 
I was going to say how? 

854
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,120
Well, there's a lot, there's 
lots of different parts because 

855
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,720
actually watching people's 
careers develop and grow is also

856
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:02,280
really rewarding. 
But that that really is a lovely

857
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:08,880
part of my job, just to be able 
to, you know, identify an 

858
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,560
opportunity for somebody that 
you think, God, this is the 

859
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,720
right time for that particular 
person to just embrace this 

860
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:19,880
opportunity. 
Yeah, I get really emotional now

861
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,240
and I get really moved on 
opening nights. 

862
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:26,000
I mean, just had it recently 
with Mary Queen of Scots, you 

863
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,080
know, resident choreographer 
Sophie Laplante. 

864
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,800
And I just couldn't contain 
myself. 

865
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,200
And I spoke to the company about
on on the opening night. 

866
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,800
Just sort of the same, you know,
Chuck us to everyone and I said 

867
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,600
to them, I'm I'm getting really 
wobbly today. 

868
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,960
So I I absolutely will have 
human feeling water coming out 

869
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:52,440
of my eyes that you know it 
because it going on that journey

870
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,680
with someone, you know, and in a
way I did for So what I had. 

871
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,880
So I gave her little one minute 
commissions, little solos, 

872
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,760
duets, gala pieces, things like 
I had, you know, the right 

873
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,080
opportunity in front of me. 
I tried to put the right 

874
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,960
opportunities in front of her 
for her, her abilities at that 

875
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,640
moment in her in her career. 
That's fantastic. 

876
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:18,760
I love doing that. 
Yeah. 

877
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:24,000
So I'm, you know, I'm so super 
proud of all of the ballets 

878
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:31,040
we've created and really proud 
that, you know, under the tenure

879
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,360
so far. 
A lot of those are by women, 

880
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,760
full length commissions by 
women, fantastic. 

881
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,480
And not the same person. 
Yeah, yeah. 

882
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,040
Not just one woman that you're 
using a lot. 

883
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,760
Yeah. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm very proud of 

884
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,120
that. 
And, and it's a fantastic thing 

885
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,760
to be happening because it 
needed needed to happen. 

886
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,400
And it's great that it is. 
Yeah. 

887
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,280
And I think it's, you know, it 
does beg the question, why? 

888
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,760
Why is it not happening more 
often? 

889
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,400
I still, I'm still puzzled. 
And why didn't it happen? 

890
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,120
Yeah. 
Oh, well, we know why it didn't 

891
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,080
happen because of the, you know,
the lovely patriarchy that's 

892
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,720
that's been signed up to on our 
behalf. 

893
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:16,040
I think the why from historical 
perspectives, but you know, I'm 

894
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,160
only really interested in in 
kind of looking forward and I 

895
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,920
guess that still still has a 
little concern for me. 

896
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,840
I'm like this should be 
happening a little bit more 

897
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,720
often than it is. 
It's wonderful that there's such

898
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:34,240
diversity of creative voices out
there now. 

899
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:39,560
It's really good, but I don't 
like that it's remarkable that 

900
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:44,680
we have 4 full length evenings a
really good ballets that take us

901
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,200
internationally overseas by 
women that I have to find that 

902
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,880
remarkable. 
That's still a problem, that's 

903
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,640
still a bit of a sign of the 
times, but it look it's great 

904
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,720
and there's lots of good work. 
You know, I see Annabelle's 

905
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,760
working on Gentleman Jack with 
Northern Ballet and you know 

906
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,040
there's some, I've just come 
from Australia as well, where 

907
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,320
Ellis Tops is creating a new 
work for West Australian Ballet.

908
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,920
So it's happening. 
I just, it was just a lot more. 

909
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,160
Yeah, I mean, like you said, 
it's it's sad that I have a 

910
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,680
reaction, which is, Oh my God, 
that's great. 

911
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,120
It shouldn't be great. 
It should be normal. 

912
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,080
We'll get there. 
Yeah. 

913
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,120
But it's quite interesting. 
I was asked a question when I 

914
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,760
was doing a seminar. 
What do we need to do? 

915
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,920
You know, how can we encourage 
women or how can we give women 

916
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,400
opportunities to do full length 
works? 

917
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,040
And I was like I just said, it's
so easy. 

918
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,680
You commissioned them. 
That's it. 

919
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,680
That's all you do because for, 
you know, all of the men that 

920
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,280
have been commissioned, they 
have been mediocre and they have

921
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,200
been less than all right. 
But they got a Commission at 

922
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,600
some point and got better at 
what they do. 

923
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,000
And so you just have to start. 
You just have to start doing it,

924
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,440
that's all. 
Yeah. 

925
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,960
So it's kind of easy. 
Yeah, but seems difficult. 

926
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,000
I've seen Scottish Ballet and 
yourself post on social media 

927
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,600
your new piece the Mary Queen of
Scots NHS. 

928
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,120
Oh I wish I was in the UK. 
Oh, I think you'd love it. 

929
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,920
For yeah, it seems like a really
interesting piece. 

930
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,960
Really interesting. 
I'm super proud of it. 

931
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,120
I'm a proud of everyone that's 
created it and, and, and because

932
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,760
it really feels like a total 
Scottish ballet piece. 

933
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,040
It feels really us. 
Yeah, I love the way it's been 

934
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,080
told. 
I love the gender fluidity 

935
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,520
within the production, which 
isn't it's so integral to how we

936
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,800
tell the story. 
That's what's so exciting about 

937
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,400
it. 
Yes, it's not a gimmick. 

938
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,240
Absolutely. 
You know, and then it's from a 

939
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:52,000
homegrown talent. 
It's just the best. 

940
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,080
Yeah, it's. 
Fantastic. 

941
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,800
Yeah, it's really cool. 
Yeah, I think you'd like it. 

942
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,960
It looks great. 
It looks really sexy. 

943
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,600
The costumes are amazing. 
The score is phenomenal. 

944
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,440
I mean, we'll bring it. 
Yeah, we'll we'll tour it. 

945
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,160
I can't. 
I nearly said something I 

946
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,080
shouldn't know. 
You'd probably guess. 

947
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,480
Yeah. 
So as a director of a company 

948
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,320
you're now more involved in as a
choreographer. 

949
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,880
Obviously you have a say about 
who you would like to use as a 

950
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,600
composer, what music, as a 
costume designer, as a set 

951
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,200
designer. 
But for our listeners out there,

952
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:28,080
it's not always the 
choreographer who makes those 

953
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,560
decisions. 
Sometimes you have to work with 

954
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,960
a certain person. 
Sometimes the director of a 

955
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,640
company is making the decisions 
and pulling people together. 

956
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,920
How do you mainly work with new 
commissions? 

957
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,240
Yeah, not like that. 
So, yeah, because it is a 

958
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,280
challenge. 
But you're right, there's loads 

959
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,800
of different ways in when I 
commissioner work, sometimes I 

960
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,560
will have been talking with that
choreographer. 

961
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,880
I will never commissioner work 
blind, like hear someone's name 

962
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,400
and give them a Commission. 
They will always, always come 

963
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,640
and do some R&D or a work that 
they've done before. 

964
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:10,160
OK, So we all know what we're 
bringing to the table. 

965
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:11,720
OK. 
Yeah. 

966
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:14,640
And then for a full length 
Commission, it's about 

967
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,280
discussing what sort of story 
we're looking to tell and how 

968
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,920
we're looking to tell it. 
They'll often come with their 

969
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,440
own creative team, which I'm 
really open to because that 

970
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,880
choreographer needs to feel 
comfortable and supported and 

971
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,600
really kind of that they're 
bringing their language up on 

972
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,920
stage. 
But sometimes choreographers 

973
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,440
will say, I've got XY and ZI, 
just don't composer, I don't 

974
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,720
know. 
And then often I can help a bit 

975
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,240
if I've, you know, yeah, come 
across someone that I think 

976
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:46,800
would be interesting for them to
use. 

977
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,200
And then the process is really 
important. 

978
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,680
So when I Commission a full 
length ballet, it's about two 

979
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,240
years in the making. 
There is always paid R&D for 

980
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,320
everyone involved. 
Amazing first. 

981
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,960
Then we look at it and we decide
whether that's what we're doing.

982
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:10,000
Then I'll often try and bring 
the choreographer for a few 

983
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:15,600
stages, so maybe 2, sometimes 3,
but normally 2 times that. 

984
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,480
They do a big scope of work, 
like a draft of it, yes. 

985
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,160
So some choreographers will try 
and draft the whole show, or 

986
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,160
they'll just draft major bits. 
Yeah, broad brush strokes and 

987
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,480
then go away again. 
And I always involve myself at 

988
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,400
varying levels with the 
choreographer and their creative

989
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,720
team, just as a critical friend 
and a sounding board. 

990
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,400
And so there's no surprises. 
And do you think you do that 

991
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,680
kind of process because of what 
you've learnt as a 

992
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:48,880
choreographer? 
Absolutely. 

993
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,400
That's what you. 
Would have wanted. 

994
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,160
Yeah, and also I've seen it fail
so many times, even on my what 

995
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,000
you know, I've, I've, I've 
commissioned things and not been

996
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,280
that supportive. 
I've learnt this over time. 

997
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,720
Of course this. 
This is what works. 

998
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,840
So yeah, I think it's really 
important and I really love 

999
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,200
setting people up for success, 
of course. 

1000
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,480
And I love, I've certainly 
enjoyed with, you know, done it 

1001
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,120
with Soph Jess and Morgues with 
Helen, Helen Pickett, just 

1002
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:25,920
having them, having those really
fab artistic evolved 

1003
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,720
conversations about, you know, 
I'll often watch a rehearsal and

1004
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:34,400
and ask a choreographer, hey, 
tell me, you know, what were 

1005
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,840
you, what were you doing in that
rehearsal? 

1006
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,040
What was it about from that can 
bring anything? 

1007
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,640
You know, it could be about I 
was just getting through the 

1008
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,640
scene or I was trying to think 
of loved you out or I'm trying 

1009
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,640
to tell this bit of story or I'm
trying to work out this solo and

1010
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,560
I love having those 
conversations and sometimes I 

1011
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,280
can as a critical friend, I can 
just help a bit. 

1012
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,800
You know, I remember with 
Sophie, she was having this idea

1013
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,840
about the character of James the
6th, James the first, James the 

1014
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,000
6th and that we have. 
And she said, oh, just how to 

1015
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,080
depict him or should we have it 
more again? 

1016
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,360
And just we were just finishing 
our catch up and on the way out 

1017
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,480
she went, I mean, we were even 
thinking of having him as a 

1018
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,760
balloon. 
And I went, well, that's 

1019
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,320
interesting. 
And she went, oh, I said, well, 

1020
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,400
I don't know what, what does 
that do for you? 

1021
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:34,480
Well, she has created the most 
beautiful image of James as a 

1022
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,600
balloon, as a baby. 
And it's this lovely little 

1023
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,560
theme where Mary has a balloon 
that she's holding and Elizabeth

1024
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,920
the 1st is in the background 
with this balloon that gets 

1025
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,040
popped at the end. 
And it's just. 

1026
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:50,720
But, you know, Sophie had the 
idea. 

1027
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:54,560
I had nothing to do with it. 
But I just love those moments 

1028
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,720
where you can just go, well, 
yeah, I mean. 

1029
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,120
Explore that. 
Don't throw that idea away. 

1030
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,960
Let's talk about it. 
It might be shit. 

1031
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:07,400
Yeah, and that's fine too. 
You know, she did ask as well if

1032
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,760
she could use my dog on stage, 
which I was very happy about, 

1033
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,840
but I said I can't get him out 
in the morning, let alone get 

1034
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:20,040
into the pitch 7:30 every night.
That must be very exciting. 

1035
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,240
And for choreographers out there
to be able to have that, that's 

1036
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,760
that safe environment because it
means you, you can be free in 

1037
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,280
your thoughts as a creator. 
And you need those safe 

1038
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,840
parameters around you so that 
you can run the risk of being 

1039
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,040
shit. 
Yeah. 

1040
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,840
And you know. 
And just even if it's just 

1041
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,080
having the conversations, 
sometimes that's just enough. 

1042
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,440
Yeah, I love sort of, you know, 
sometimes just sitting down with

1043
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,120
creative, some dancers or anyone
and just, you know, if they do 

1044
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,720
an eye roll and I'm like, go on.
What's that one about? 

1045
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,720
You know, they'll tell me 
something and it's probably 

1046
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,760
something I've seen or fell or 
heard before, which I might be 

1047
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:01,440
able to help with. 
And then sometimes it's 

1048
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,360
something I've never encountered
before and I'll just be like, 

1049
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,440
oh, that's interesting. 
All right. 

1050
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,520
And what, what might we do 
there? 

1051
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,600
So, yeah, you can probably hear.
I really love what I do because 

1052
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,120
it just, I never know what the 
day will be ever. 

1053
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,760
It's lovely. 
On a day-to-day, for our 

1054
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,640
listeners out there on a 
day-to-day, what is the director

1055
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:27,360
of Scottish is Normal Day? 
There is not a normal day, 

1056
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,640
that's what's great. 
But essentially, yes, I do go to

1057
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,240
a place of work. 
We've got incredible purpose 

1058
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,840
built studios in in Glasgow, 
just down the road from where I 

1059
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,760
live. 
They are remarkable. 

1060
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,000
They are incredible studios and 
a wonderful space with all of 

1061
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:44,880
our technical staff are there as
well. 

1062
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,200
So we rehearse often in sets and
things like that. 

1063
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,000
Oh, amazing. 
But I think I'm also, I was made

1064
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,600
CEO in 2015. 
So there's a kind of a really 

1065
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,680
holistic viewpoint of my day. 
I'll often, I'll often be 

1066
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,520
focused on the functions of the 
day, what's the company needing 

1067
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,680
to achieve that day? 
We're rehearsing new cast who 

1068
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,320
needs to be going on, and I'll 
be working with the artistic 

1069
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,280
team who's led by Ollie Ride 
out, you know, working with him 

1070
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,720
very closely about what do we 
need to achieve, what the 

1071
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,120
specifics. 
But then in the background, I'm 

1072
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,480
perhaps also strategizing around
new works and keep those on the 

1073
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,280
boil. 
And then working with my 

1074
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,320
executive team and my senior 
leadership group, which I find 

1075
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,520
really rewarding too because, 
you know, we need to raise funds

1076
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,680
for this. 
We need to position ourselves 

1077
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,320
globally. 
We need to be listening to our 

1078
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,520
communities to hear what it is 
that they're feeling and 

1079
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,680
sensing. 
How does that show up on our 

1080
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,120
stages? 
It's all of those things. 

1081
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:46,600
And the easiest way to explain 
it is I approach it as one job 

1082
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,320
not to. 
It's a job. 

1083
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,560
It's just about leadership, 
really. 

1084
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,280
Because what got added in, 
what's when you became the CEO, 

1085
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,800
Yeah, what's that part that got 
added in? 

1086
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:01,080
Is that the funding, is that the
looking into the society and the

1087
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,840
your areas and is that? 
When that got added on into your

1088
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:06,120
job. 
Yeah. 

1089
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,440
And the previous CEO departed 
and we were, we were in the 

1090
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,600
middle of a tour and I was 
interim for a good few months, 

1091
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,600
good 6-7 months. 
And I remember saying to them, 

1092
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,240
how's that search going? 
And the chairman at the time was

1093
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,160
like, it's going all right. 
But also we're not searching 

1094
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,400
that hard as well. 
We're sort of looking at what's 

1095
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,200
happening and, and whether a new
model might work, right. 

1096
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,480
And but I had to apply. 
I was invited to apply for that.

1097
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,720
Yes. 
What that new model would be. 

1098
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,800
So in a way it yes, that part of
it is a little bit around 

1099
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,040
advocacy governance. 
Right. 

1100
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,160
I'm sure that, you know, we're 
working with our partners. 

1101
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:50,240
Scottish Government are big, big
primary funders for us and 

1102
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,760
strategizing on our tours. 
I don't do it alone. 

1103
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,600
I've got an incredible team. 
I've got a great wingman in 

1104
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:58,680
Stephen Roth, my executive 
director. 

1105
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:04,600
The really quick way to describe
it as well is my job is 

1106
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,760
someone's name needs to go in 
the papers when we've done 

1107
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,560
really, really well, and 
someone's name needs to go in 

1108
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,040
the papers when we've done 
something really, really 

1109
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,040
terrible. 
And it's mine both times. 

1110
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,280
OK. 
Yep, you know I take full 

1111
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,240
responsibility for everything we
do. 

1112
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,240
Whether that be artistic, 
whether by financial, whether 

1113
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,440
that be whatever, Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

1114
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,160
But ultimately I share that with
the most incredible team. 

1115
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,000
I really do. 
Yeah. 

1116
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,440
I wouldn't have been here as 
long as I have without having 

1117
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:35,040
that. 
Really. 

1118
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:36,560
Of course, yeah. 
I love it, though. 

1119
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,960
That ability to. 
I tell you what it does, Paul, 

1120
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,840
is it means the art leads the 
company every time. 

1121
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,640
There is, there is no question 
the art leads every single time.

1122
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:54,360
We chose for our 50th 
anniversary, we chose to produce

1123
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:59,040
a new original full length 
ballet every year for five years

1124
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,240
and we did it amazing, which is 
massive. 

1125
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:06,160
It is massive. 
It needed, it needed the head of

1126
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,920
the organization to be going. 
We are doing it no questions and

1127
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,040
that's how it's achievable or 
part part of how it's 

1128
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,720
achievable. 
But that's amazing to to be able

1129
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,360
to say that, you know, the art 
itself is what is leading the 

1130
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,360
company. 
That's amazing. 

1131
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:26,320
At every point we, when we ask 
that question all the time, you 

1132
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,880
know, when we, when we have 
challenges, funding challenges, 

1133
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,520
how will this impact the art? 
What will the art need to do to 

1134
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,520
face this challenge just as it 
should be? 

1135
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,160
Chris, I think we should try and
round off now. 

1136
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,200
I'm going to have some little 
quick pop questions to ask you. 

1137
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,160
Tell me. 
OK, so you can answer them as a 

1138
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,920
dance, you can answer them as a 
director, as a choreographer, 

1139
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:54,920
however you deem. 
OK. 

1140
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,960
Yeah, OK. 
So my first question is, what is

1141
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,040
the most amazing venue you have 
performed in? 

1142
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:03,840
Oh no. 
Can I have two? 

1143
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,720
Of course you can. 
There were the Heredita Atticus 

1144
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,160
in Athens, that open air 
Amphitheatre, absolutely 

1145
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:13,840
incredible. 
There's nothing like it. 

1146
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,800
And more recently, and it's, 
it's just because it's very 

1147
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,480
close to me, was the Saint James
Theatre in Wellington in New 

1148
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,320
Zealand. 
I just taught the company there 

1149
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:30,280
and it was so lovely because 
that was a, a real Crucible for 

1150
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:34,600
me to learn my craft and to 
bring Scottish ballet there and 

1151
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,120
perform on that stage. 
That was pretty nice. 

1152
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,120
So those two theatres? 
Fantastic. 

1153
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:44,520
Lots of people have said whether
it be in Athens, but those open 

1154
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,560
air amphitheatres are just. 
Amazing. 

1155
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,400
When we we were doing this one 
late there and I remember the 

1156
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:50,840
girls just standing in their 
lines. 

1157
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,480
It was really traditional 
production. 

1158
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,240
One of the wings just went 
crashed. 

1159
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:02,920
Yeah, the wind picked up. 
Oh my God. 

1160
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,560
Yeah, it was pretty, pretty 
hairy, but it was good fun. 

1161
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:09,520
Do you have or did you have 
growing up a favorite dancer? 

1162
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,200
Growing up, I would say Nuriev. 
Right. 

1163
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,240
Yeah. 
Oh, and Leroy from fame. 

1164
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:27,480
What was it about Nuriev? 
I, you know, it was seeing a man

1165
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,560
dance so beautifully. 
And I remember thinking it being

1166
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,000
beautiful. 
Like it wasn't manly and it 

1167
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,560
wasn't, it wasn't that 100% 
masculinity. 

1168
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,360
It was real beauty, Yeah. 
Like Anthony Dowell. 

1169
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:43,440
Yeah, beautiful as well. 
Yeah. 

1170
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,680
First theatre or dance 
production you ever saw? 

1171
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,720
And I believe it was Giselle and
I believe it was Northern 

1172
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,360
Ballet. 
And I think I kept saying, when 

1173
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,920
do they talk all the way 
through? 

1174
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,600
And I tell you the other thing I
remember was it was all, you 

1175
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,040
know, that Act one's all Dingley
Dell countryside. 

1176
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:12,280
And then the shock when the 
curtain went up on Act 2 and I 

1177
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,720
was like, hang on, where's all 
the cardboard cut out trees and 

1178
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,560
the and the little cotton is. 
This a mixed program. 

1179
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,400
I remember that beat. 
I was like, oh, that's 

1180
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,200
different, that sense of 
theatre. 

1181
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,160
Loved it. 
Yeah, favorite ballet or dance 

1182
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,760
production you have ever seen? 
Oh. 

1183
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:38,240
Paul, I can't answer that. 
Yes you can. 

1184
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:44,600
Oh. 
Fuck that's really tough. 

1185
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:46,960
Favorite. 
Do that one again. 

1186
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:48,080
Favorite. 
Dance. 

1187
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,600
Favorite ballet or dance 
production you've ever seen? 

1188
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,400
Oh man. 
Because lots of the time it 

1189
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,120
doesn't have to be the best 
production. 

1190
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,080
It has to do with where you were
in life when you saw it or who 

1191
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,360
performed it. 
Or yeah, OK, what I'm going to 

1192
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:10,680
go for here is probably, as with
my emerging artistic director, 

1193
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,960
hat ONS. 
It's many years ago and I was at

1194
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:21,400
the Paris Opera and I saw a 
ballet called MC Catores Sussi M

1195
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:27,640
Encore by Krezlakage, and I was 
blown away. 

1196
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:32,400
It was radical. 
It's just 12 men and it's an 

1197
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:37,960
essay on masculinity and it is 
brutal. 

1198
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,880
And I just remember getting to 
the end and going, I think I'll 

1199
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:43,600
probably need to see all of that
again. 

1200
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:49,480
And it sparked to me, I remember
thinking, God, if I ever become 

1201
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,160
a director, I'd love to bring 
that work. 

1202
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,040
And I did. 
And I did it at the Edinburgh 

1203
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,760
Festival with Scottish Ballet 
and we toured it to New York. 

1204
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:04,040
Wow, wow, that's incredible. 
What is the last piece of music 

1205
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:05,320
or song you listen to today? 
I. 

1206
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:11,840
Don't even know why I was 
listening to it. 

1207
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,240
It was the red Hot Chili 
Peppers. 

1208
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:19,520
Give it away, give it away. 
OK, fantastic. 

1209
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:24,960
It's better than Leanne Cope's 
answer. 

1210
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:26,400
She came from her children's 
party. 

1211
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,360
It was Baby Shark. 
That's a, that's a great 

1212
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:32,840
question, Paul. 
That's a really. 

1213
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:35,720
Good one. 
Yeah, really good. 

1214
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,720
Who has been your favorite 
teacher? 

1215
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:43,720
Whether it be company class, 
school, open class, Who has been

1216
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,280
that teacher? 
Norman Morris. 

1217
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:48,920
I mean, there's lots of people, 
but look, I'm going to say 

1218
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:54,280
Norman, he was so important to 
me at a moment in my life, 

1219
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:59,360
probably 17 or 18. 
And that man had no judgment on 

1220
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,320
anybody. 
And I would just go up to his 

1221
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,360
office and sit down. 
I'd be up there for hours 

1222
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,640
talking with him and as the 
former director of the Royal 

1223
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:10,560
Ballet. 
And he would just speak so 

1224
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:16,160
openly and about his own life. 
And I remember him talking about

1225
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:20,560
how frightened he was as a 
director and how he talked 

1226
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,880
about, I mean, he didn't say 
impostor syndrome, but that's 

1227
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:27,279
what he was communicating. 
And he, he would share that 

1228
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:29,520
much. 
But then I loved that he was 

1229
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,840
interested in me and what I was 
going through and feeling and, 

1230
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:35,160
and it was more than 
choreography. 

1231
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,240
It it really was kind of life 
lesson stuff, Yeah. 

1232
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,000
My favorite question now. 
A memorable time you made a 

1233
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,560
mistake or forgot an entrance on
stage. 

1234
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:54,560
Oh God, 1 I get what a really 
easy 1 to reach for. 

1235
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,680
I just joined DMB and we were 
doing Swan Lake and I was in the

1236
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:02,760
quarter ballet. 
But I've been given this special

1237
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:07,359
little role where the Prince 
calls for everyone to drink and 

1238
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:13,800
I was chosen to come on with a 
tray and one glass for him. 

1239
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,399
So I'd go to the centre of the 
stage, he'd take that glass and 

1240
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:20,160
cheers everyone and it was a big
long mind scene. 

1241
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,600
Then everyone drank and then he 
gave me back and then I walked 

1242
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:29,319
off and I was standing there and
then the music happened and I 

1243
01:09:29,319 --> 01:09:34,439
remember just my eyes widening 
as everyone was cheersing and I 

1244
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:46,240
was still standing at the back. 
It reminded me, I look back. 

1245
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,240
Do you remember? 
Have you ever seen Acorn 

1246
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:49,800
Antiques? 
Oh. 

1247
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:54,760
My God, this stupid sitcom thing
that Victoria Wood did and this 

1248
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,400
woman coming on into ATV show, 
she's meant to be carrying a 

1249
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,080
tray and she's forgotten it, so 
she just minds it. 

1250
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,600
And I just remember, I remember 
looking at The Prince and it was

1251
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,040
Rex Harrington from National 
Ballet of Canada guesting. 

1252
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,720
But I did that again. 
Can I tell you another one? 

1253
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,680
Please. 
I this is probably an even 

1254
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,480
better one. 
Again, very early on, and it was

1255
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:23,560
Ronnie Hines Coppalia. 
And in Act 2, obviously the 

1256
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,720
friends are just doing Doctor 
Coppalis's house. 

1257
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:30,480
And there's the dolls that sit 
around and that you sit stock 

1258
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,520
still for the whole thing. 
And I was soldier doll standing 

1259
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,360
at the back on a bicycle seat, 
so I could just rest a little 

1260
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,920
bit. 
And all I had to do, and I could

1261
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,200
probably do this, describe what 
I had to do. 

1262
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:47,240
My only move was to salute in 
three counts, to lift the hand 

1263
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:53,600
up to my forehead 1-2 and then 
put it down 3123 and just keep 

1264
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:54,280
doing that. 
Oh. 

1265
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,200
Yes, yeah. 
Clockwork and that's all I had 

1266
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,160
to do in the whole 25 minutes on
that day. 

1267
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:07,080
And then again, I could just, I 
just remember thinking, I'm 

1268
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:11,800
standing here for ages, like, 
and then the curtain came down. 

1269
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:20,880
I love it. 
Like, Oh no. 

1270
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,320
Oh my God, it's completely 
switched off. 

1271
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:33,000
I'd just gone somewhere and we 
were on Show 27 in somewhere. 

1272
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,560
Oh, I think I've just gone 
somewhere else in my little 

1273
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:38,000
brain. 
Oh my God. 

1274
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:42,160
It's just that feeling. 
It's just going like, Oh, no, 

1275
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,440
yeah, there you go. 
Oh my God, I've had that switch 

1276
01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:51,360
off thing sometimes in class 
where you sometimes find 

1277
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:54,040
yourself on the second side in 
glisses and you're like. 

1278
01:11:55,480 --> 01:11:59,600
Did I do the first side? 
You've just kind of gone on to 

1279
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,360
autopilot. 
You're like we've done tondos 

1280
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,360
and glisses on the right leg. 
How did I? 

1281
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:11,480
Totally, Absolutely. 
I'll bet you've heard some 

1282
01:12:11,480 --> 01:12:13,760
corkers, haven't you? 
Oh yes. 

1283
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,360
Oh yeah. 
God. 

1284
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,360
Sadly, that question was only 
added last season. 

1285
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,120
So my guests of the first 
season, I didn't get to ask them

1286
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,480
that question. 
So I didn't get to ask Alfreda 

1287
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:26,400
Thorogood that question. 
Oh. 

1288
01:12:27,480 --> 01:12:31,280
She'd have had some really good.
Ones I should I should just call

1289
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,880
her up and like, my God. 
I mean the stories actually told

1290
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:37,760
on her episode were incredible 
anyway. 

1291
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:40,920
But like, I would love to hear 
things going wrong back then. 

1292
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:45,120
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 
All right, final question. 

1293
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:48,480
What is the best premier party 
or last show party you've ever 

1294
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:50,800
been to? 
I've just been to it. 

1295
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:55,840
It was the opening of Mary Queen
of Scots that was the best one 

1296
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,000
because it did. 
It tipped all the boxes for me. 

1297
01:12:59,480 --> 01:13:02,840
I was so proud of everyone, the 
entire company. 

1298
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:07,000
It was incredible, Yeah. 
How long is it running? 

1299
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:12,080
It's on. 
We open in Glasgow again in 

1300
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:14,600
three or four weeks time, 
September, and it carries on. 

1301
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:18,840
We go tour Aberdeen, Inverness 
and then back to Edinburgh in 

1302
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,000
October. 
So yeah. 

1303
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,120
And then watch this space. 
I think we'll see it at a 

1304
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,000
theatre near you soon. 
Well, probably not near you. 

1305
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:31,000
Near you people listening. 
Down South, hopefully we'll see.

1306
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,320
Chris, thank you so much for 
joining me today. 

1307
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,720
It has been lovely catching up 
with you. 

1308
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:42,600
I've loved it, Paul. 
It's it's like old times. 

1309
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:46,280
It's been really great, so thank
you so much for being a guest on

1310
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:48,040
the podcast. 
You're welcome. 

1311
01:13:48,440 --> 01:13:51,320
And thank you all for listening 
to another episode of Drinks at 

1312
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,040
the Bar. 
If you have enjoyed the episode,

1313
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,840
please give us a little rating 
and share with your friends. 

1314
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:58,920
Chris, take care. 
Bye now, bye bye.