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Look at me, Sporting AGI Jane 
Demi Moore, Seeker, 1998. 

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You were watching you on Netflix
and you'd seen that Pen Badgley 

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shaped his head after filming 
and you were like, I'm going 

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full pen Badgley. 
No, I literally saw a picture of

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me the other day from two years 
ago, and I shaved my head. 

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I was like, oh, she looks quite 
good. 

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00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,920
It's like a gay Jason Statham. 
Jason Gatham. 

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I was kind of like sick and 
tired of always having like side

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part because you always have to 
have the same bloody hair in 

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this industry. 
We spoke about it before in the 

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previous episode, always have to
have a versatile haircut and 

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kind of she's she's of a certain
age and she's getting a little 

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bit thin up top and it's fine. 
My hair looks fine, but like, I 

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have to really style it and hold
it. 

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And I've got a bit sick and 
tired of seeing videos of me 

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when I'm dancing in the studio, 
putting on social media. 

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And every time I turn around, I 
see like a really thin area on 

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top of my head. 
I was kind of like, oh, and I 

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was watching videos that James 
would record of the show for us 

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to like, look at notes and look 
at pathways and stuff. 

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And when I would see myself, I 
could see like, only I can see 

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it because I'm like, really 
focusing on it. 

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But then like, I would see like 
a thin patch on my head. 

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And it was just like, you know 
what? 

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I'm shaving my head again and 
it's summer. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
It's the perfect time to shave 

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your head. 
I, I feel that way too. 

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And then I'm like, and I 
probably could get away with it 

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in terms of work. 
I don't need to worry about my 

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hair. 
But I know that every time I've 

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cut my hair short, I've been 
like, I want longer hair again, 

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even though I love the idea of 
going completely like cropped, 

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but I don't know. 
So let's see if I lose. 

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If I lose half a stone maybe. 
But for me, I like see myself in

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the mirror and I'm happy with 
it. 

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But I have to say, every time, 
you know, when, like there's a 

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mirror or a shop window, 
something just like out the 

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corner of your eye, Yeah, I 
don't know who that person is. 

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It's very strange. 
Yeah, it's because it's. 

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Yeah, well, it's a big part of 
your identity, isn't it? 

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And suddenly the hair's gone. 
You're like, oh. 

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Oh, who's she? 
Who's? 

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She it's flirting with me in the
bakery. 

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Oh, it's me. 
Hello. 

45
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,600
Me. 
But I do think it ages me a 

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little bit. 
Oh really? 

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00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,800
I think I, well, I think I look 
my age. 

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I don't think, maybe late 30s. 
I don't think. 

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00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,800
I don't think so. 
I don't think. 

50
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I don't. 
Think you ever looked young? 

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I don't. 
Think past the late 30s. 

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Even with your long hair, you 
looked about 75. 

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Even with your hair extensions 
you were verging on pensioner. 

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00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,000
Right, Should we quickly do an 
intro and start? 

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Hello and welcome to Drinks at 
the Bar, a podcast where we 

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breakthrough the 4th wall and 
discuss everything about dance 

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and the theatre industry. 
My name is poor James Rooney, a 

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dancer, choreographer and dance 
teacher based in Copenhagen, and

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I am your host of Drinks at the 
Bar and today I am joined by my 

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00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,880
regular guest host. 
If Falki Hansen ever needed a 

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body double for a dance film, 
she would call Damien Lee Stirk.

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Hi everybody, I'm Damien Lee 
Sterk, director of the Dancer 

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Studio London, classical ballet 
teacher, actor with the Royal 

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Ballet and body double. 
Here we will discuss everything 

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from hearing backstage stories, 
touring shenanigans, to deeper 

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issues like body image training,
the reality of being a freelance

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dancer, and much more. 
With guest professionals, we're 

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here to share our knowledge, 
experience, and help you with 

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any questions or problems you 
may have about dance and 

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navigating the dance world. 
We've managed to get through 

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that perfectly, without 
giggling, without any mistakes. 

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Look at US professionals. 
And we can see each other for 

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the first time because I 
actually printed off this script

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in my panic and because normally
I work off the directly from the

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screen, so I thought that was. 
Cheers. 

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Well, the sun was out this 
morning. 

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It's now gone cloudy, but she 
has a Lily and tonic. 

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00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,600
Oh we have very similar looking 
drinks. 

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I have a rose but they're almost
the same colour. 

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Cheers. 
Cheers love. 

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00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,840
From Provence. 
Oh oh. 

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00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,960
Is that hitting this thought? 
It really is. 

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00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:20,800
Hi babes. 
Hi my darling, how are you? 

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00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,560
I am good. 
I have finished Sound of Music. 

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Oh, finally, well done. 
It feels like it's been going on

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00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,000
for the last three to four 
years. 

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00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,840
Well, to be honest, we did start
with Julie Andrews and there's 

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00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:37,520
just been cost change after cost
change. 

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00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,800
After cost change. 
Oh, Jules. 

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00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:45,360
No, it's been, it's been great. 
It's been like, well, we 

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discussed it a couple of 
episodes back. 

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00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,680
My nervous breakdown, my midlife
crisis. 

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00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:53,600
No, it's been good. 
It's finished. 

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Yeah. 
I'm happy it's finished. 

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00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,040
And James is happy it's 
finished. 

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00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,480
We're all happy it's finished. 
Like it, it played its course. 

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It sold really well. 
It's done fantastic, and here's 

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00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,000
to new things ahead. 
Exactly. 

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Cheers love. 
Cheers. 

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00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,280
Oh, I'm. 
Just going to be cheering all 

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the way through this episode. 
Cheers. 

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00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,320
No, it's good. 
We finished Sound of Music. 

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It was so much fun to be James's
assistant in the rehearsal 

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period and the creation and all 
of that. 

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That was absolutely great. 
And then like we discussed then 

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I was swing on the production 
and that was just the job. 

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And that's fine, but very 
excited because it has been 

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00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,520
announced so I can say it on the
podcast. 

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00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,240
We are doing My Fair Lady next 
season and James is 

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choreographing and I am 
assistant choreographer. 

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00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,000
Again, excellent. 
Yeah. 

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Oh, congratulations and 
wonderful and what a great 

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project to work on together. 
Yeah, so James and I are going 

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back in the studio and creating.
So it's going to be I Cannot 

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Wait or Brilliant start Creation
in November and I'm already 

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really excited so. 
Wonderful, darling. 

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00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,640
Congrats, yeah. 
How are you? 

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00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,280
What have you been up to? 
Well, I have just returned. 

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00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,560
I was up in Scotland with Alan 
whilst he was working in the 

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constituency and we had just 
phenomenal weather. 

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It was beautiful. 
So that was lovely, a change of 

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scenery. 
Just before that my parents were

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down for the bank holiday. 
We're still performing Romeo and

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Juliet and tomorrow we have a 
double show day, and then on 

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Sunday I'm teaching one of my 
own repertoire workshops with 

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the Dancer's Studio London at 
the Opera House. 

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00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,520
So it's been a busy old time. 
And actually tonight I managed 

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to get a ticket for the 
Christopher Wheeldon Ballet to 

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Broadway. 
Oh. 

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I wish I could see. 
That and you know, something, 

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00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,520
it's really interesting because 
it was on the schedule and I 

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kept seeing it pop up and I 
thought, oh, and I, I wasn't 

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entirely sure what the 
programming was. 

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I knew that it I knew that it, 
you know, it was wheel done 

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fantastic. 
And it wasn't until last week I 

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saw a clip of Lauren Cuthbertson
doing a little snippet from a 

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duet to Joni Mitchell. 
What's her name? 

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00:06:58,760 --> 00:06:59,680
Joni Mitchell. 
No. 

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00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,880
Is that her name? 
Joni Mitchell, the one that we 

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00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,080
all cry to in I Love Actually, 
when she receives the CD, yes. 

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00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,200
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 
exactly. 

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So I saw a little snippet of 
Lauren dancing tonight in the 

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studio and I was like, sold. 
I was like, I need to get a 

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ticket and I managed to get one 
for this evening. 

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So off I go to the theatre. 
Fantastic. 

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00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,760
I mean, it was quite funny 
because on our episode with 

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Leanne Cope, she was talking 
about wanting to go back in the 

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studio maybe, and I don't know, 
help stage Liam Scarlett's work 

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or something. 
And then it was quite funny to 

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see on social media that she 
went back into the studio and 

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she wasn't teaching, as far as I
know, but she was there doing 

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question and answers about 
American in Paris and 

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everything. 
Oh. 

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Fantastic. 
Yeah, it looks great. 

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So I'm guessing they're doing 
some of the repertoire from 

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that, obviously. 
Yes, yes, they are. 

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00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,720
I think 4-4 pieces this evening 
and tonight is opening night and

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oh wow, yeah, I can't wait. 
I'm really, really excited. 

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00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,560
But that's how it should be, 
isn't it? 

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I think if you've certainly, if 
your original cast or you've 

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00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,080
spent a long time with a 
particular project, how lovely 

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00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,920
it is to be invited back into 
the company to offer, you know, 

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those little diamond particles 
of knowledge that you've you 

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were given when you were 
learning the role and share, you

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00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,080
know. 
Completely. 

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Especially like we saw. 
We spoke about it, I think. 

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00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,240
Was it? 
Yeah, I'm sure it was you we 

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00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,240
spoke about. 
Because when Alice happened, 

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00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,240
Zinedi Yanowsky came back into 
the studio and was helping train

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the Queens. 
That's right. 

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00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,800
Yeah, I. 
Mean, I think it's great if if 

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00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,600
it can happen with people's 
schedules and everything, I 

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think it's a great thing to do. 
Yeah, an important, important 

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and. 
It wouldn't be an episode of 

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Drinks in the Bar if we didn't 
bring it up quickly, but didn't 

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00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,159
it also happen this year with 
Adam Cooper went back and did 

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some workshops or some couple of
hours with the leads in Matthew 

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Bonswan Lake this year when it 
started rehearsals. 

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Yes, that's right. 
You're absolutely really right. 

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00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,560
Yeah. 
How lucky for them, you know, 

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00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:58,480
from from the original Swan 
Stranger, or one off at least. 

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00:08:58,640 --> 00:08:59,640
Great. 
There you go. 

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00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,560
You got to have your little 
Matthew Bourne talk for five 

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00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:04,440
seconds. 
That's all you get, Matt this 

185
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,040
week. 
Absolutely A. 

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00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:12,520
Snippet of a swan. 
So last time we recorded, we 

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00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,480
actually discussed injuries and 
we told Jessica to pull herself 

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00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,920
together and get the fuck on 
stage. 

189
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:20,520
Well, she needed to hear it, 
quite frankly. 

190
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,120
Enough is enough, Jessica. 
It was quite a while ago and as 

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00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,720
we've mentioned before, 
sometimes episodes are recorded 

192
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,400
in advance, had quite a few 
weeks in advance, you know, 

193
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,680
because our schedules not lining
up or guest episodes being 

194
00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:36,960
sprinkled in here and there. 
And also because I'm a very busy

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00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,280
woman and wear more fleeces and 
body warmers don't sell 

196
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,280
themselves. 
I just don't. 

197
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,360
They're a spokeswoman for 1990s 
fleece body warmers. 

198
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,440
Absolutely a winning style, what
can I say? 

199
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,600
Well, I was listening to the 
last time we recorded, which was

200
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,640
the episode that was released 
last week I think at the time of

201
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,520
recording and I said it is 4 
weeks until I go to Paris. 

202
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,440
I have now just come back from 
Paris. 

203
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,440
Voila, here she is. 
And it was great. 

204
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,680
It was absolutely fantastic. 
I took your advice even like I 

205
00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:15,960
said, I was already planning on 
doing it. 

206
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,760
But I did go to Jardin de 
Luxembourg. 

207
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,520
Marvellous. 
And I don't think I had ever 

208
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,800
been there before. 
I think that's why it was on my 

209
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,520
list of things to hopefully do. 
And then when we spoke about it 

210
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,400
on the podcast, then I said to 
tools, we definitely have to do 

211
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,160
this. 
So we did and we went. 

212
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,640
And it is beautiful. 
It really. 

213
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,720
Absolutely stunning. 
And one might think, why did you

214
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,800
not go when we spent three 
months there performing well, 

215
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,240
like, but it was the winter time
and it's not really the weather 

216
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,640
to be trotting off and sitting 
in a park in the freezing cold. 

217
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,880
So and also, you know, it was 
Christmas time and we barely had

218
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,880
any free time so. 
And the free time we have, we 

219
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,720
spent at Lafayette and Prenton 
spending all of our podiums. 

220
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,000
But in case my mother is 
listening, because she always 

221
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,200
asked me, are you going 
sightseeing when we were in, I 

222
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,200
don't know, Chicago, are you 
going sightseeing when you're 

223
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,560
doing this? 
And I had to keep on reminding 

224
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:21,240
her that no I'm I'm at work and 
I have one day off a week. 

225
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,960
Yeah. 
So yes, OK, fine. 

226
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,480
We were in Paris for two months,
three months on 2 occasions, but

227
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,480
still we only had one day off a 
week and the rest of the time we

228
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,480
were working. 
So and exhausted on on that day 

229
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,960
off because it you know. 
Or hungover. 

230
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,360
Or hungover? 
Yeah, Oh yeah, both. 

231
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:44,520
Or having the flu but still 
being dragged out to celebrate 

232
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,040
someone's birthday. 
You only turned 21 once. 

233
00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,000
Oh my God. 
Yeah. 

234
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,880
So I have to say we went to a 
restaurant called Kong when we 

235
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:54,080
were there. 
Right. 

236
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:59,320
It was absolutely amazing. 
Next time you're in Paris, check

237
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,080
it out. 
I kind of feel like it's not. 

238
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,840
It's not in sex in the silly 
film. 

239
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,600
Is it car? 
Yes, it's where. 

240
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,840
She it's where she is, and it's 
got the Asian faces on the back 

241
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,800
of the chair. 
That's where she meets Big's 

242
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,640
ex-wife. 
Is that where she? 

243
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 
Fabulous. 

244
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,920
So that's where we went. 
Oh, how exciting. 

245
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,880
So yeah, no, it was a fantastic 
trip and. 

246
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,120
Yeah, ticked all the boxes. 
Ticked all the boxes and did 

247
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,880
exactly what it needed to do. 
Like it was a great break from 

248
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,640
the craziness that this whole 
season. 

249
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,880
Has been oh great, well done. 
Yeah, Chin, Chin Salu. 

250
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,200
Cheers. 
Cheers sweetie, I'm going to 

251
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,400
need to top up in a minute. 
We're only 5 minutes then. 5 

252
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,200
minutes into the into I was 
going to say into the 

253
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,920
rehearsals. 5 minutes into the 
rehearsals and I'm already 

254
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,440
drunk. 
Little ice cube. 

255
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,800
You mustn't crunch ice. 
It's not good for the enamel in 

256
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,800
your teeth. 
OK, moving on. 

257
00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,080
OK. 
Sorry, Denise. 

258
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,440
So today I wanted us to talk 
about competitions. 

259
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,880
We will see a lot of things on 
social media and actually I'm 

260
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,520
judging a dance competition at 
the end of May, but I thought it

261
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:19,080
was a discussion worth having. 
Definitely ballet competitions, 

262
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,520
dance conventions, TV talent 
shows. 

263
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,040
Let's dive into it all. 
Well, I think the first thing we

264
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,880
should dive into is probably. 
Another bottle of wine. 

265
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,600
Another bottle of wine. 
It's probably what we all when 

266
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,240
you straight away think dance 
competitions. 

267
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:36,840
That's what we should talk about
first. 

268
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,480
You know, the Little Miss 
Sunshine, 10 year olds up to 

269
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,040
maybe 14 year olds in glitter 
cat suits with the hair and high

270
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,080
ponytails and the whole room 
smelling of Elnet. 

271
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,920
Those kind of competitions. 
Thoughts. 

272
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:59,360
Well, I, I'm intrigued because 
that is the vision that that I 

273
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,000
know that I have seen, but I've 
never participated in those type

274
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,120
of competitions. 
So all I can remember when I was

275
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,560
in training pre vocational and I
was around dancers that were 

276
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:16,240
doing competitions, it always 
felt terribly exciting, like an 

277
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,320
adventure. 
And I don't think I was ever 

278
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,360
envious, but more curious 
because it seemed very, very 

279
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,520
specific and niche almost, you 
know, down to the way the 

280
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,120
dancers were dressing and the 
hair and the makeup and the 

281
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,120
musical choices and the, the 
choreography was generally, from

282
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,160
what I remember, commercial 
musical theatre, kind of glitzy 

283
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,120
bit jazzy A. 
Little bit acro. 

284
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,200
Yeah, yes, actually almost like,
you know, figure skating, but 

285
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,480
but dancing that kind of, you 
know. 

286
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:51,840
Figure skating without the 
skates. 

287
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,360
Figure skating without the 
skates, yeah. 

288
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,080
And yeah, the full the full 
works. 

289
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,440
I think the same for me. 
When I was younger, my specific 

290
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,720
local dance school, I don't 
think anybody went to 

291
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,840
competitions and nobody did 
competitions. 

292
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,920
But then when I was a kid I was 
in a lot of local pantos, Like 

293
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,600
professional pantos with grub 
bags for example. 

294
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,840
Oh, classic, classic. 
And I remember we would go to 

295
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,320
auditions and then the cast 
would be made-up of kids from 

296
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,560
around the local area and 
obviously not everybody from my 

297
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,720
dance school. 
And then I would meet other kids

298
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,360
from other dance schools. 
And that's when I first heard 

299
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,720
about these competitions. 
And yeah, it was like a another 

300
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,720
animal, like I had never heard 
of it. 

301
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,400
And yeah. 
And it was very, like you said, 

302
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,120
this is not a negative thing to 
say about it, but very cheesy, 

303
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,680
very glitter, Very. 
And that's not being derogatory.

304
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,360
That's just it's a entertainment
kind of dance in that makes 

305
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,400
sense. 
Yeah, yeah, I agree. 

306
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,960
I and I always felt I don't 
about you, but I always felt, 

307
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,920
you know, these competition 
dances, they're a little bit 

308
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,480
they were a little bit tougher, 
a little bit more St. wise, 

309
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,280
which I think in hindsight is 
great because it obviously 

310
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,240
toughened them up at an earlier 
age. 

311
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,640
You know, if a career in dance 
is what eventually happened for 

312
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,600
for said dancer, But I don't 
ever remember feeling I want to 

313
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,440
do competitions. 
I just knew it existed. 

314
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,880
I don't know about you. 
It existed outside of my kind of

315
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,960
controlled environment of going 
to the dance studio after 

316
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,400
school. 
But I never felt like, oh, I 

317
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,240
wanted to give it a go, but at 
the same time, I admired the 

318
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,080
strength of those competition 
dancers. 

319
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,520
It's interesting, isn't? 
It and there was something that 

320
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,880
intrigued me. 
Again, I don't think I had a 

321
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,520
feeling in me thinking, oh, I 
want to do a competition. 

322
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,560
Yeah. 
But there was, there was an 

323
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:56,080
intrigue and I think also like, 
I think probably the main reason

324
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,080
why I didn't think about, Oh, I 
want to do the competitions is 

325
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,680
because I didn't dance like 
that. 

326
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,840
I wasn't like that. 
So I, even though I did jazz and

327
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,119
I did tap and I didn't, but then
I did ballet. 

328
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,200
I don't know. 
It just didn't seem like me at 

329
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,880
all or the way I dance or 
anything. 

330
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,119
So I think that's also why I 
never thought of, oh, yeah, I I 

331
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,160
want to do that. 
But like you said, I think it is

332
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,280
a, it does give kids, especially
back then in the like in the 

333
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,359
90s, and I'm sure it still does 
now, gives kids like a bit of an

334
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,240
oomph. 
And yeah, like you said, a 

335
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,000
thicker skin maybe and maybe 
they're not so self-conscious. 

336
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,040
And I mean, and it's great 
performance experience. 

337
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,920
I mean, when you were a low in 
your local dance school, 

338
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,360
speaking from my own experience,
the only time I performed was 

339
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,280
the yearly dance school 
performance and that was it. 

340
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,520
Whereas if you are part of these
festivals or competitions, then 

341
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,000
there was other opportunities to
perform and then you were, you 

342
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,280
know, getting performance 
experience and learning what it 

343
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,240
is to be on the stage with the 
lights and an audience being 

344
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,160
there and getting used to that 
kind of thing. 

345
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,720
Yeah. 
I'm now just questioning my 

346
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:07,280
entire existence as a pretty 
vocational dancer because I 

347
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,000
definitely didn't participate in
competitions. 

348
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,920
However, we did. 
And so grateful now for the 

349
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,200
experience. 
But we did have access to, there

350
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,040
was a show called Variety 
Express. 

351
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,600
OK. 
And if any of my former 

352
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,640
classmates from Dorothy Stevens 
are listening to this, they will

353
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,880
immediately remember. 
So this show Variety Express US 

354
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,920
used to tour all around the UK 
and occasionally some of Miss 

355
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,280
Stevens dancers Dorothy Stevens,
may she rest in peace. 

356
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,120
Some of us were allowed to 
participate. 

357
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:46,320
So it was a variety show, not a 
competition, but we did have 

358
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,320
access to perform on stage. 
And that really set me up for a 

359
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,520
life in in performance because 
in. 

360
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,360
Showbiz. 
In showbiz, because I managed to

361
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,720
get the experience, but it it 
never felt like a competition. 

362
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,880
Everything, everything was 
orchestrated piece by piece and 

363
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,720
we would come in and do a 
number. 

364
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,880
It wasn't always classical 
ballet. 

365
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,480
There were musical theatre 
numbers and more modern numbers.

366
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,920
But the experience that gave me 
stage experience was absolutely 

367
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,520
priceless. 
So maybe halfway between a 

368
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,920
competition dancer and, you 
know, taking class in the 

369
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,280
studio. 
But having having that access 

370
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,680
was just such without sounding, 
you know, but it was a privilege

371
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,440
because as you've just 
mentioned, most non competition 

372
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,040
dancers are probably only doing 
their annual school show, right.

373
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,000
So, you know, so to be able to 
step on stage and and have that 

374
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,000
experience was, was, was 
amazing. 

375
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,440
So I'm grateful for that. 
And even though parents were 

376
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,120
invited in for like, I don't 
know, the last class of the term

377
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,920
and they come and watch you 
before Christmas holidays or 

378
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,800
something, it's not the same. 
That's not performing. 

379
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,240
You're in a studio and yes, 
people are watching, but the 

380
00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,960
whole experience of getting on a
stage and having the lights and 

381
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,160
having a costume and having 
something that you've worked 

382
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,080
towards to present and perform 
is a different thing than just 

383
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,040
doing a class and having your 
parents watch. 

384
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:10,920
Yeah, it is. 
Because also if you're doing a 

385
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,040
class, you're not performing. 
Like if I was doing the bar and 

386
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,800
my parents are watching, I 
wouldn't be performing the bar, 

387
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,560
although my mom would be sat 
there like smiling and then 

388
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,160
pointing at her face saying 
like, oh, smile, pull, smile. 

389
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,320
Shut it, Gillian. 
Gilly pops, cool it. 

390
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,720
I'm in a full plea in fourth 
here. 

391
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,600
Oh, I haven't done one of those 
in decades. 

392
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,120
I don't blame. 
You either 2 Demi pliers wander 

393
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,520
Jean, 2 Demi pliers wander Jean,
or two Demi's and then a roll 

394
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,760
through. 
Yes, I do like to have we we 

395
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,160
digress, but that's OK. 
I do like to have a couple of 

396
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,920
options for for plies in fourth 
position and I do and and we 

397
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,920
have Tory Trotter to thank for 
the Demi Demi rond, Demi Demi 

398
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,000
rond. 
And also I like a Demi Demi. 

399
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,880
And then you alonge that back 
leg and then you go Demi Demi 

400
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,520
and then you lengthen the front 
leg and then you place the front

401
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,280
leg down. 
Try it next time. 

402
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,560
It's really lovely when you're 
sick of the Demi Demi ronde Demi

403
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,640
alonge and then place the foot 
down and then you can do your 

404
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,600
Porter bra. 
You know which way of and then. 

405
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,040
Have a cigarette break, OK? 
Exactly. 

406
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,040
Exactly, exactly. 
Anyway, competitions. 

407
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,840
Well, I think to finish the 
discussion on that specific, 

408
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,880
because it is very specific, 
that kind of competition, yeah, 

409
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,920
Little Miss Sunshine is what I 
call it, even though Little Miss

410
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,000
Sunshine is a beauty 
competition, but that whole kind

411
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,040
of world, I think it's harmless.
It's completely fine if the kid 

412
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,360
is going into it for themselves 
and it's not pushing mum, 

413
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,760
pushing mum, pushing mum and 
it's hurting the child. 

414
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,600
In that sense. 
I think they're completely 

415
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,480
harmless and they're completely 
fine and it and it is just a bit

416
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,840
of fun and a little bit of 
performance experience. 

417
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,560
I don't see anything negative in
it if it is the child wanting to

418
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,200
do it. 
Yes, because it's a very 

419
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,600
ambitious environment, 
competitive environment. 

420
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,640
So you do need a certain level 
ambition. 

421
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,280
But yeah, that has to come 
through the child rather than 

422
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,760
steered by, you know, the 
parent. 

423
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,000
Just because mum Felicity Oh. 
Giving you evils. 

424
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,560
Yeah, I never had. 
My mother was never a ballet 

425
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,040
mum. 
I'm so thankful that she just 

426
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,480
let me get on with it. 
You know, occasionally she'd 

427
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,520
she'd say, have you learned the 
French terminology yet? 

428
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,760
And I'm like cool it Julie, I've
been here 5 minutes. 

429
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,720
So are you fluent to French yet?
Like to see that flick Flack? 

430
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,000
Junior. 
Are you fluent in French yet? 

431
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:50,640
It's been 20 minutes due. 
Ballet competitions. 

432
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,200
Now, I also never did this. 
I never entered A Prieta, 

433
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,400
Lazanne and Adeline, Jenny, any 
of that stuff. 

434
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,800
I never did. 
And also, to be honest, I don't 

435
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,680
think I really knew it existed 
until I was not past my prime, 

436
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,440
but until I was already like 
kind of working and had a job. 

437
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,440
So then I wouldn't do that 
anymore. 

438
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,000
I would have never won or got 
anything anyway. 

439
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,440
But like, that whole kind of 
thing wasn't on my radar. 

440
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,240
At all. 
Yeah, I think same for me in a 

441
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,600
way really. 
You know, I had my traditional, 

442
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,320
let's say RAD training, pre 
vocational, carried on the RAD 

443
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,320
training up to advanced. 
At E&B. 

444
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:42,440
At E&B and then, but I suppose 
now those big competitions are 

445
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,920
to get access to kind of the 
world's leading ballet school 

446
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,440
directors and whatnot in order 
to win a place where we were 

447
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,720
already at vocational schools. 
So or perhaps, you know, just to

448
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,480
enter onto the world stage. 
But I think for us it was a time

449
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,440
without social media. 
So the world access in quotation

450
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,600
marks would have been limited 
because there was no outlet to 

451
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,880
tap into that world access, if 
that makes sense. 

452
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,040
Because it was, yeah, it was 
controlled. 

453
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,040
And also there, I mean those 
exact, those exams, those 

454
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,680
competitions did exist because I
think Darcy Bussell won, I think

455
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,440
the Yaki Yoshida won. 
Yes, yes. 

456
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,240
But I don't know, I just never 
heard of it. 

457
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,960
And I was at, you know, Elmhurst
and I'd been at the Royal Ballet

458
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,640
School. 
I just obviously they didn't 

459
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,120
push me forward to it, but I 
would have assumed I would have 

460
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,400
heard of it but I just never 
had. 

461
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,720
Yeah, you're right. 
I don't recall really much 

462
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,680
interest within the ballet 
world, you know, around me at 

463
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,360
that time. 
So it is interesting how now 

464
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:47,080
that. 
Was. 

465
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,200
Huge, almost used as a marker, 
like it's odd if you're not 

466
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,080
going for those big 
competitions. 

467
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:57,600
Yes, and I don't know if back 
then maybe it was only I have no

468
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,400
idea. 
So this is maybe right as a 

469
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,320
message on Instagram, but maybe 
back then it was only kids from 

470
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,960
the Royal Ballet School, kids 
from ABT School, maybe kids from

471
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,960
Bolshoi School, Maybe it was 
more yeah, closed. 

472
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,520
And now it's been opened up a 
bit. 

473
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,960
I have no idea. 
Yeah, no, it's interesting, 

474
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,840
isn't it, how it seemed to have 
exploded. 

475
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,000
But actually, you're right. 
You know, icons like Darcy 

476
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,600
Bussell had participated. 
And so it must have been, it 

477
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,840
must have been happening. 
She obviously was good. 

478
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,600
Wow. 
I've heard good things about 

479
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,560
her. 
I mean, one of the reasons why I

480
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,000
wanted to have this conversation
was that because it is so out 

481
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,880
there now and there's new things
every year. 

482
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,040
There's that young British 
dancer, there's a Danish ballet 

483
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,320
prize that there's so many 
competitions nowadays, 

484
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,960
specifically in the ballet 
world. 

485
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,640
But also I'm sure they're 
growing in, you know, the jazz 

486
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,960
world and in the hip hop world 
and all of this kind of stuff. 

487
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,040
And I just wanted to, you know, 
open the can of worms and talk 

488
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,040
about it a bit because I can 
remember being that age that the

489
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,480
kids are now and having 
something like that going on 

490
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,400
around me would seem like a lot 
of pressure and would seem like,

491
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,400
oh, if I'm not going to get to 
the finals, then I must be 

492
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,160
awful. 
And I just want to quickly put 

493
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,040
out there that if you were going
in for these competitions, you 

494
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,560
should be going into them for 
the right reasons. 

495
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,880
Personally, I would say that the
only the only benefit out of 

496
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,520
going for these auditions as a 
young person is to win some 

497
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,960
money to help towards your 
tuition or to help towards 

498
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,120
buying apartment in living in 
London or, you know, financial 

499
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,880
gain to help you in your life 
slash career in the future. 

500
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,600
Because it it is not going to 
help you get a job. 

501
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,680
You winning young British dancer
of the year or whatever it is 

502
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,440
those competitions are called is
not going to go for or against 

503
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,520
you in auditioning to be older 
Billy in the West End. 

504
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,720
At the end of the day, we're all
going to be stood there in the 

505
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,200
audition doing the Rep, and 
they're going to pick based on 

506
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,760
what's in front of them, not on 
the fact that, oh, did you see 

507
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,280
in 1972 he won Young British 
Dancer? 

508
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,160
Like, no, it doesn't help you. 
Yeah, I think from a resume 

509
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:19,440
perspective, ultimately it's not
going to be the one thing that 

510
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,760
gets you the job in a room full 
of very talented dancers. 

511
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,720
My interpretation of of these 
competitions and, and literally 

512
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,200
just discussed it, but to go 
beyond that. 

513
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,360
So financial reward, absolutely.
If there's a financial prize 

514
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,480
that helps you facilitate your 
training, especially if it's 

515
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,520
international, if you're moving 
from America to London to go to 

516
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,760
the Royal Ballet School or 
Russia to Paris, wherever it may

517
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,360
be. 
But also an artistic reward in 

518
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,720
that it might be that one 
competition that gets you the 

519
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,680
scholarship to go train at Paris
Opera School, where without the 

520
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,480
competition win and the exposed,
you wouldn't be able to afford 

521
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,400
it. 
That is a wonderful reward 

522
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,400
because it allows ballet 
directors to tap into the world 

523
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,960
access of dancers where perhaps 
they wouldn't be able to to meet

524
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,800
those dancers more locally. 
But I'm at the same time, I'm 

525
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,760
sure it's very expensive to 
participate in these 

526
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,320
competitions. 
So it's kind of like catch 22, 

527
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,400
isn't it? 
Like, first of all, you've got 

528
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,600
to have the right ballet gear, 
the right dance where you've 

529
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,080
probably got to to fly. 
Someone to create a solo? 

530
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,440
Yes. 
So it opens up a conversation, a

531
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,360
dialogue of we know if you're 
winning a financial and artistic

532
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,600
reward which allows you to go 
into vocational training that 

533
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,960
you couldn't achieve without the
competition. 

534
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,400
How do you get the funding to be
at the competition in the 1st 

535
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,120
place? 
I mean, that's a whole, that's a

536
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000
deep dive into a whole other 
conversation. 

537
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,080
Yeah, financial. 
We'll keep that for Season 3. 

538
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,120
Yeah. 
But it's it when you start to 

539
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280
dig deep, it's, it's 
interesting, isn't it? 

540
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,800
The setup, the structure of 
these international, let's say 

541
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,360
ballet competitions because 
that's the focus and how you get

542
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,760
there versus what the reward is,
if you're even lucky enough to 

543
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,360
to gain a reward, be it 
financially or or or 

544
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,720
artistically. 
Yeah, because I'm sure there is 

545
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,000
a first, a second, a third 
place, first runner up and all 

546
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,240
this kind of stuff. 
And if there is not a financial 

547
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,840
reward or here's a place that 
are coveted summer school for 

548
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,040
two weeks, if it's not a 
tangible thing, then I'm not 

549
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,120
saying you shouldn't go for it. 
But there needs to be an yeah, 

550
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,840
an understanding with yourself 
that I'm doing this because of 

551
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,800
what is the reason I'm doing 
this because I want experience 

552
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,160
performing. 
I'm doing this because I just 

553
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,760
want to get on stage and have a 
a nice experience and dance for 

554
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,520
some great directors. 
Or I want to dance in front of 

555
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,320
Deborah Bull, who is now the the
the same patron. 

556
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,720
Patron. 
Saint Patron St. 

557
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,160
The patron of Pete Lausanne or 
whatever it is like if you need 

558
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,800
to know the reason that you're 
going for that competition and 

559
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,280
just be aware that the reason 
should not be because the 

560
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,960
director of Sconer's Dance 
Theatre in Sweden is there and 

561
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,480
he might opt for me a job that 
that should not be your reason 

562
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,960
for going to the competition. 
Your reasoning should be about 

563
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,360
the prize or having the 
experience or just being 

564
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,920
surrounded by other dancers. 
And yeah, just be. 

565
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,480
I think people need to be aware 
of why they're doing it. 

566
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Yeah, and I think all they're 
all great reasons, you know, 

567
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:46,040
access to world leading dancers 
who perhaps are there to coach. 

568
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Having that access is is already
a reward meeting other dancers. 

569
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,120
And let's not forget this is 
show business and you do need to

570
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,640
make contacts and network. 
Even at that age, if we're 

571
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,160
talking kind of pre vocational 
or on the cusp of starting your 

572
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:09,040
upper school training, you know,
you do need to have a strategic 

573
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:14,040
mind and it does help in this 
business to know to know the 

574
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,120
right people. 
I'm sad to say I. 

575
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,480
Mean, I didn't think of that, 
but that's actually a very 

576
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,120
positive thing to come out of it
because you could, like you 

577
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,640
said, treat. 
I mean, lots of, not all ballet 

578
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,120
competitions, but some of these 
ballet competitions are like a 

579
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,120
mini summer school in itself. 
Yeah. 

580
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,840
You might be coached by Bruce 
Sampson. 

581
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,280
I'm naming people from the 90s. 
The 90s were were amazing that 

582
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,400
way. 
You might be coached by Bruce 

583
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,200
Sampson or have, I don't know, 
soloist training with Titsua 

584
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,880
Kamakawa and. 
Yes. 

585
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,080
Anybody else you want to name 
for the 90s? 

586
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,280
I immediately I'm thinking of I 
want to name some Birmingham 

587
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:58,000
Roll ballet dancers as well and 
but I'm scared if we start 

588
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,640
naming dancers. 
You make a book a made of for 

589
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,680
example. 
Oh, my good friend Eric. 

590
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,840
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 
That's a whole other story. 

591
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,720
No, but I do think those that's 
that's a very good point that 

592
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,800
you raised. 
You know, it is like a little 

593
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,760
summer school already itself, 
just being part of the the 

594
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,000
competition and the making of 
connections. 

595
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,960
I didn't think of that. 
So that's a very good point that

596
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,840
actually, you know, you meeting 
Matthew Bourne at a competition,

597
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,880
maybe down the road, if you if 
you get down to the finals of 

598
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,560
the audition for his company, 
maybe he might remember your 

599
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,960
face, maybe he won't, but maybe 
he would. 

600
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,920
Absolutely. 
And all it can take is that one 

601
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120
moment. 
If you've got two people and 

602
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,440
you're thinking, God, I need to 
cast this role, they're both 

603
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,200
great. 
It can be that moment of oh, I 

604
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,920
recognise that dancer from that 
competition or. 

605
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,720
He was a pain in the ass. 
What about him? 

606
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,920
Whatever it is. 
Well, yeah, it can work both 

607
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,280
ways I suppose, depending on 
what what's happened. 

608
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:04,640
But familiarity can also be the 
one thing that makes the 

609
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,160
decision from the director of 
actually, yeah, I recognize him.

610
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,000
I recognize her. 
I recognize that dancer. 

611
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,160
Let's let's let's cast them. 
Let's fire them. 

612
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,440
Recognize her? 
She's not Jessica. 

613
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
She's got no chance. 
Wait #26 Jessica? 

614
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,720
No, absolutely not. 
I do apologize for any listeners

615
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:33,080
who are called Jessica, but 
these ballet competitions, I 

616
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,280
think again, the same thing 
about the Young Glitter 

617
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,320
Hairspray dance competitions is 
that you have to be going into 

618
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,400
it for the right reasons and you
need to be going into it with 

619
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,880
the pressure from the right 
places. 

620
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880
You have to be wanting to do it.
You shouldn't be forced into 

621
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,600
doing it from your mother, your 
dance teacher, your school, your

622
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,280
whatever it is, it is, it is not
needed for a career. 

623
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,960
It's you should be doing it 
because you want to do it 

624
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,840
because I know there is also 
that side of it of because 

625
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,600
vocational schools are also 
businesses. 

626
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,360
Let's not forget that there is 
also that side of it of we've 

627
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,560
got 4 kids into Preet Lesan this
year. 

628
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,320
Your school is also trying to 
advertise itself. 

629
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,719
So if you're not willing or 
wanting to be a part of it, that

630
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,440
is fine and it is not going to 
go against you having a career. 

631
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,719
The school might be pissed off 
with you, but fuck em. 

632
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,520
You are more important. 
If you are not comfortable and 

633
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,199
you do not want to do this, that
is not going to be a a black 

634
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,360
mark on your career. 
You are not going to go to an 

635
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,679
audition for Paris Opera and 
they're going to go you did not 

636
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,520
audition for, you did not do 
Prix de Lazam when you were 16. 

637
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,000
No. 
Nobody cares. 

638
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,800
When you get to the big wide 
world and you are going for 

639
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,280
jobs, nobody cares. 
Nobody cares if you've done a 

640
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,000
competition. 
Nobody cares if you won. 

641
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,639
Nobody cares if you lost. 
Nobody cares that you didn't do 

642
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,680
any. 
No one cares. 

643
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,840
I think what's also really 
important just to remind 

644
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:07,920
ourselves is that perhaps in the
moment, if it's you that's the 

645
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,400
dancer that's participated or 
has decided not to participate 

646
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,240
in the competition for whatever 
reason, it does feel like it 

647
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:20,120
matters a great deal of. 
However, ultimately, as you've 

648
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,760
just said, when you get to the 
point of your professional 

649
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,760
career, those things don't 
matter. 

650
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,160
Yeah, it's great to say I came 
first in the pre Lausanne. 

651
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,840
Amazing. 
That's a story you can share and

652
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:38,280
it also highlights an 
achievement and it's telling the

653
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,400
other person or the people that 
you something about your level 

654
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,040
of dance and what you've 
achieved, right. 

655
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,640
It's like you're saying, well, 
in order for me to achieve this,

656
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,200
I must be good. 
Therefore I'd like to be 

657
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,520
perceived as somebody who is a 
great dancer and this is this is

658
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,400
the reference, this is the 
competition, that's the marker. 

659
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,800
However, once everyone's on 
stage, am I going to be able to 

660
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,120
pick out the one person that 
came first at the Prix de 

661
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,200
Lazare? 
No. 

662
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,320
No and also I agree with you at 
the moment when you are entering

663
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,080
that competition it should be 
important to you. 

664
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,520
The reason I went off and won 
and say like it doesn't matter 

665
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,640
is because if you don't want to 
do it then don't beat yourself 

666
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,240
up. 
If you want to do it for 

667
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:27,720
whatever positive reason you 
want to do that competition like

668
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,400
anything in life, yes invest 
yourself into it and go into 

669
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,960
100% and work your ass off. 
If you want to do it for the 

670
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,120
right reasons, do it and be 
proud of your accomplishments 

671
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,040
and do it. 
I'm just saying that firstly, if

672
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,800
you don't want to do it, it's 
not a big deal. 

673
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,800
Also, if you don't win, it's not
a big deal. 

674
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,240
If you do win, yes, be proud of 
yourself. 

675
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:49,880
Yes, put it on your CV. 
But at the same time, there is 

676
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,760
one winner and a lot of people 
who do not win. 

677
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,040
And I'm just saying that those 
people who do not win, it 

678
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,360
doesn't matter. 
Yeah, and they've probably gone 

679
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,720
on to have fantastic careers, 
you know, So it's not, it's a 

680
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,240
great marker if you win, share 
the story, wonderful. 

681
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:09,440
You have a narrative, ultimately
see you in the studio. 

682
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,160
Who cares? 
Everyone for themselves. 

683
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,160
Exactly. 
Ultimately, see you in the 

684
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,200
studio and I will trip you up. 
See you in the studio and that 

685
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,280
medal will be coming home with 
me in my bag. 

686
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,920
So the final thing I wanted to 
talk about regarding 

687
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:34,320
competitions was TVTV, talent 
shows, TV dance competitions. 

688
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,960
So you think You Can Dance, 
Britain's Got Talent, The 

689
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,120
Greatest dancer, all these 
competition shows. 

690
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,160
And I think the main thing I 
wanted to throw in here is kind 

691
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,720
of similar to what we've said 
about the other competitions is 

692
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,320
that if you want to do it, do 
it. 

693
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,160
But no one, if you're going to 
be a dancer as a job, a balance 

694
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,800
dancer, a contemporary dancer, a
jazz dancer, you winning 

695
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,960
Britain's Got Talent, for 
example, or you winning so you 

696
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,040
think You Can Dance is not going
to give you a job in a ballet 

697
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,200
company and it's not going to 
give you a job in a musical as a

698
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,880
dancer, as an ensemble. 
It's not going to give you a job

699
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,080
in a contemporary company. 
I think that there is some kind 

700
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,880
of celebrity factor that the 
world works nowadays, that it 

701
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,240
could maybe get you a featured 
role in a musical. 

702
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,520
If they're looking to try and 
sell their show through your 

703
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,640
name, that could come out of it 
could. 

704
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,720
But again, you, I think you need
to go into these things with the

705
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,160
correct mindset and knowing what
you want out of it. 

706
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,920
I know Britain's Got Talent, for
example. 

707
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,960
There's a cash prize. 
No, Think so. 

708
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,600
I don't know, to be perfectly 
honest, I I find those kind of 

709
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,640
shows, I can't watch them until 
maybe like the finals. 

710
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,240
I just can't bear watching the 
auditions that I find. 

711
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:59,280
It's so, so cringy. 
I just can't bring myself to do 

712
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,840
it. 
Just show me that last top three

713
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,160
probably already picked the 
winner. 

714
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,480
I know you mean, I mean, 
obviously a lot has changed 

715
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,640
since they first came around. 
And I remember when, you know, 

716
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,320
the first of these TV 
competition shows were around, 

717
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,560
it was pop stars where hearsay 
won. 

718
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:17,160
Uh huh. 
And. 

719
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,520
The whole industry, like the 
music industry and everything, 

720
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
you know, and then I think Pop 
Idol was next with Will Young 

721
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,200
and Gareth Gates and Zoe Burkett
and stuff, you know, and the 

722
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,840
whole professional industry had 
a very, you know, turn their 

723
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,840
nose down at these people who 
are on these competition shows. 

724
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,320
Whereas I don't think that's the
mindset nowadays, because I 

725
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,120
think people in power within the
theatre and TV world know that 

726
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,240
that person, because of social 
media and everything, that 

727
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:46,720
person now has a following. 
So that following will help them

728
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:50,000
share this, sell their the show 
and all that kind of stuff. 

729
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:55,600
But I don't see, correct me if 
I'm wrong, I don't see a benefit

730
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,080
if you want to be a dancer and 
this is a specific dance based 

731
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,000
podcast. 
Yes, it's talking about theatre,

732
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,320
but dancing specifically if you 
want to be a dancer, I don't. 

733
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,640
I can't see what job you would 
want out of. 

734
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,560
That you could gain from being 
on one of these TV shows. 

735
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:15,920
And this is spoken from someone 
who's been on one of those TV 

736
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,280
shows. 
Yeah, I think you hit the nail 

737
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,320
on the head when you mentioned 
kind of a celebrity status. 

738
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,760
I think in this day and age with
so the social media outreach and

739
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,920
people still fixated on the 
amount of followers, etcetera, 

740
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,800
and what that gives you in terms
of endorsements or sponsorships.

741
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,160
I think if you're looking for a 
career in dance, like a serious 

742
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,960
career in dance with longevity, 
doing something that brings you 

743
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,000
joy, having a celebrity status 
on the back of, let's say, doing

744
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,320
one of these competitions, I 
think can be helpful for the 

745
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,280
reasons you've explained, IE 
helping to bring an audience to 

746
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,360
a show. 
But I also feel that perhaps you

747
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,680
may be offered roles that you 
wouldn't necessarily get if you 

748
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,080
didn't have that celebrity 
status. 

749
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,920
And that doesn't mean you're the
best person for the job because 

750
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,520
we all know the best person 
doesn't always get cast for the 

751
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,080
job. 
There are many reasons why 

752
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,520
people find themselves into 
different roles. 

753
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,320
It's just the nature of the 
business and it's not exclusive 

754
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,560
to the dance world. 
So I imagine the benefits in 

755
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:33,200
terms of casting and financial 
reward and sponsorship rewards, 

756
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,600
you know, it is attractive. 
But generally, and I think this 

757
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,360
is the point that you're trying 
to make, the dancers that you 

758
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,520
see on stage that have gone 
through schooling, not 

759
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,760
necessarily competition dancers,
they've done everything in the 

760
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,720
traditional order. 
Those dancers are not generally 

761
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:57,280
the dancers that are attracted 
to participating in those 

762
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,800
celebrity TV shows. 
No, because those celebrity TV 

763
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,080
shows, those Britain's Got 
Talent, whatever, that's a very,

764
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,640
it's, it's, that's not a career.
The majority of the people who 

765
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,640
want to be a professional dancer
will go through their 

766
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,480
professional training and then 
go and audition for companies 

767
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,440
and shows and stuff. 
Because that's where a long 

768
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,520
career can come from. 
From working as the ensemble in 

769
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,800
Wicked for a couple of years and
then moving on to being the 

770
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,640
ensemble in Joseph and whatever 
or joining English National 

771
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,600
Ballet Company and being there 
for 15 years. 

772
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,880
You going and doing so you think
You Can Dance at the age of 19? 

773
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,840
Cool, you might win that. 
And then what? 

774
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,120
What happens next about if you 
want to be a ballet dancer? 

775
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,120
Let's take that for example. 
If anything, I don't imagine 

776
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,240
myself as a ballet director 
wanting to hire you unless you 

777
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,600
are principal level. 
Maybe I can use that towards my 

778
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,640
benefit as a company to sell 
tickets. 

779
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,200
But if you are a great dancer 
who can join my ensemble, do I 

780
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,000
really want some, you know, Swan
20 at the back, right? 

781
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,080
Being someone from So You think 
You Can Dance? 

782
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,400
I don't know if that if I that 
means anything to me or if I 

783
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,280
want to distance myself from 
that or I don't know. 

784
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,960
I think all of those feelings 
are are justified because it's 

785
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,640
unconventional, isn't it? 
And I think, yes, I think dance 

786
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,680
and certainly ballet should have
the room and space to evolve. 

787
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,200
And it doesn't always have to be
the traditional way, but 

788
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:37,400
certainly ballet, it's the 
tradition and the discipline 

789
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,920
that we respect and that we do 
try to hold onto. 

790
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,880
So it's tough to navigate away 
from that, isn't it? 

791
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,120
And I think casting someone who 
has a little bit of a celebrity 

792
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,280
status just feels against the 
grain within that genre. 

793
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,080
Perhaps more in the musical 
theatre world, it makes more 

794
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:58,200
sense. 
But again, only if you're going 

795
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,800
for a lead role, because if you 
are a dancer, dancer wanting a 

796
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,440
job in a musical, well, then 
you're going after ensemble and 

797
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,200
then I don't see what benefit 
you winning. 

798
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,360
So you think You Can Dance is 
going to go for you if you're 

799
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,400
going if you're if you're 
wanting to be a dancer in an 

800
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,280
ensemble of a musical because 
also your job is kind of not to 

801
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,080
stand out. 
Yes, I don't know. 

802
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:29,000
But I I feel by having that 
elevation of profile through TV 

803
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:35,240
exposure may launch someone who 
would ordinarily be an ensemble 

804
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:42,800
dancer into a soloist slash 
principal based purely on this. 

805
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,200
The celebrity status, yes, Like 
we saw with everybody in the 

806
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,040
early 2000s, everybody and their
cousin who had a tiny bit of 

807
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,960
celebrity status was playing 
Velma or Roxy in Chicago. 

808
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,400
Yes, literally. 
They were like, like the the 

809
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,800
people that were in the West End
playing it. 

810
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,560
I mean, I don't want to name and
shame, but there were some names

811
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:04,920
there that should not have been 
there. 

812
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:10,280
Yeah, because they had a profile
that allowed, as we've 

813
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,240
discussed, this is a business. 
And so being able to tap in that

814
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:19,000
person's following will sell 
more tickets than perhaps 

815
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:25,600
casting the most spectacular 
dancer in that in that studio. 

816
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,640
I mean, it happens all the time.
If you know who have been on 

817
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,080
Broadway and West End in 
Chicago, you know who we're 

818
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,080
talking about. 
There are many names we could 

819
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,720
bring up here. 
Agreed. 

820
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:39,720
And I think, yes, it's wonderful
to give people a shot at 

821
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:44,160
something, but if you want want 
to, you know, maintain the 

822
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,960
legacy of the production, let's 
say, it does take a certain 

823
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,520
skill set to portray that 
character. 

824
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,240
And having a celebrity status 
shouldn't be the one thing that 

825
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:02,000
allows you access into that kind
of sacred world, really. 

826
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,440
No, no, because it kind of makes
our industry even harder than it

827
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,960
needs to be because then it adds
another level onto why I might 

828
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,400
not get the job. 
You know, there's already enough

829
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,840
reasons why I might not get the 
job. 

830
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,240
Shoving on the You don't have 
enough followers on Instagram to

831
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:20,600
also play this role is now. 
It's a tough one, isn't it? 

832
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,880
Because you do want to sell 
those seats. 

833
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,480
You do want to raise the profile
of the production. 

834
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:31,880
However, you know, what is where
do you draw the line on, you 

835
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,240
know, integrity versus, you 
know, just getting bums on 

836
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:37,880
seats? 
It's a tough, it's a tough one, 

837
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,200
yeah. 
And I'm grateful that I don't 

838
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,880
have to think about those kind 
of financial implications 

839
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,080
through staging and. 
Casting and. 

840
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,920
Whatnot for sure. 
I just want to bring up because 

841
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,960
I'm sat here talking kind, I'm 
not talking negatively, I'm just

842
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,360
talking about these TV talent 
shows. 

843
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,160
I've been on ATV talent show. 
I was on the Danish version of 

844
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:05,240
The Greatest Dancer, but I went 
into it at an older age. 

845
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,760
I had, I was kind of quotation 
marks done with my ballet career

846
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,480
and I was going into this solely
for the reason of getting an 

847
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,000
exposure. 
I was not going into it with a a

848
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,800
thought of, oh, if I go into 
this, I'm going to get a job in 

849
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,200
said company or whatever. 
I was going into it to raise my 

850
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:34,600
name and my profile to try and 
build up my industry name 

851
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,080
because I was finding it very, 
very hard to get choreographic 

852
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,320
jobs because nowadays the 
choreographer name also needs to

853
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,000
be a name because of how the 
world is changing and how the 

854
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,160
world is working. 
Theatre is trying to sell 

855
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:56,400
tickets as in any way they can. 
So there could be a celebrity in

856
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,920
the role. 
The name of the show itself 

857
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,320
needs to be able to sell 
tickets. 

858
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,400
Like has it been a 90s movie 
that was huge? 

859
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,240
You know, Mean Girls and 
Clueless and Groundhog Day and 

860
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:08,120
Mrs. Doubtfire. 
All these musicals around 

861
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,120
nowadays that you know the name 
of the show is trying to sell 

862
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,960
the tickets. 
You know, Also is Fade from 

863
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,080
steps playing the lead to try 
and sell tickets. 

864
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,320
But in addition to that, the 
writer of the musical, is it KT 

865
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,240
Tunstall, that name is also 
trying to sell tickets and then 

866
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:26,840
the name of the choreographer is
also trying to sell tickets. 

867
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,800
You know, so I've noticed a lot 
that the industry is also hiring

868
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,400
quotation marks, celebrities in 
other jobs, not just playing the

869
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,320
lead. 
So I was entering that TV 

870
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,240
competition to try and build my 
name up a little bit, not to 

871
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,000
become a household name, but you
know what I mean? 

872
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,520
Get a little bit more known so 
that when I write to theaters 

873
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,120
and musicals saying I would like
to choreograph, they could 

874
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,160
connect me to the TV show 
because I thought that would 

875
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,880
help me. 
Also, on the other side of it, I

876
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,360
was doing it because, as you 
know, I've released some music. 

877
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,120
I wanted to also promote myself 
in that sense and get more of a 

878
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,440
following of people to follow me
for music and dancing because I 

879
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,040
had done my contemporary company
work, I had done my ballet 

880
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,800
company work. 
I wanted to try something new 

881
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,240
and that's why I went on it. 
And again, it comes down to what

882
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:20,360
I said at the beginning. 
You need to go on these things 

883
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,920
for the right reasons and you 
need to know why you're going on

884
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:29,080
to it and know what you want out
of it and be realistic with 

885
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,840
yourself. 
Because I don't think going on 

886
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,000
to, if I was 19 years old and I 
went on that talent show like I 

887
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,240
did, I do not think that it 
would have helped me at all in 

888
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:42,200
getting a job in a ballet 
company or a contemporary 

889
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,880
company at all. 
It actually hasn't helped me at 

890
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,680
all, I don't think. 
But I have some very nice 

891
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,240
professionally filmed 
choreographies and dancing 

892
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:57,040
footage of me at my late 30s, 
which I can now look back at. 

893
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,360
And I have that. 
And that's what I'm happy about 

894
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,840
because the majority of our 
career as dancers in theater, 

895
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,560
nothing is filmed because it's 
for a live audience. 

896
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:08,360
So I have, and also I'm from an 
age where when I was really 

897
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,480
young, there wasn't social media
and all of this. 

898
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,440
So I don't have that much 
footage of me dancing. 

899
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,160
So I'm kind of happy that I also
did this show. 

900
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,440
It's not the reason I did it, 
but like I'm happy I did it 

901
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,120
because now I have like videos 
of me dancing when I was near 

902
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,000
enough my prime, maybe a little 
bit past. 

903
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,240
But like, yeah, that's also why 
I. 

904
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,240
Yeah. 
And it was a strategic move, 

905
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,200
having had already had a 
fruitful professional career. 

906
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,240
So yes, you know, you're doing 
it for the right reasons. 

907
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:38,400
And your expectations were, 
let's just see, you know, I have

908
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,880
no expectations actually, the 
reward would be to have a little

909
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,800
bit more exposure to help 
support, you know, the next 

910
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,880
steps as I, as I gravitate 
towards teaching and 

911
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,400
choreographing full time, as you
start to crossover into a full 

912
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,000
time career. 
And having the footage is 

913
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,560
really, really valuable because 
you, you are now able to access 

914
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,440
that and, and share that. 
And so it has supported you in 

915
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,240
ways that you didn't expect it 
to. 

916
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,280
And it's so interesting. 
Today I randomly met our friend 

917
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:09,880
Darren, who is also a former 
dancer. 

918
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,520
He's now an actor living in LA 
doing very, very well. 

919
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,440
And we happened to be in the 
area. 

920
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,520
So we met for lunch and we sat 
in the park. 

921
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:22,160
And we were discussing actually 
only earlier today how there are

922
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:27,560
very few images of us dancing. 
And I'm so grateful to him. 

923
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,440
And this is what we spoke about 
in between a double show day in 

924
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,840
the West End. 
We said, let's, well, it was 

925
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,640
actually his idea, his like, 
let's stay in costume after the 

926
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,960
final curtain before we get out 
of costume for this break before

927
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,680
the 2nd show. 
Let's stay on stage because a 

928
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:49,000
certain key piece of set will 
still be placed on stage because

929
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,640
it's there at the top of act one
and it's there at the end of act

930
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,640
four. 
I mean, I'm basically giving you

931
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,440
the show. 
And we got a few snaps, like 

932
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:00,640
with a real camera. 
Yeah. 

933
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:06,360
And those are the only snaps 
really of us in in costume in a 

934
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,840
theatre. 
Like they're like gold dust 

935
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,760
because we were over time, you 
know, so. 

936
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,040
And also we're over time where 
you're not allowed to. 

937
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,400
No, it was forbidden. 
Allowed to take photos. 

938
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,360
It sounds ridiculous now, but it
was forbidden you and even now I

939
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,880
feel really weird when people 
are taking pictures. 

940
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,600
I'm going, you know, that is not
the etiquette, but you know. 

941
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,520
No, but it's also because back 
then it was we're only allowed 

942
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,960
to have the the professional 
photos that are in the program 

943
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,640
or the professional press 
material. 

944
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,120
No one is allowed to have yeah, 
private photos of the costumes 

945
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,200
because it makes it makes the 
show look less than because it's

946
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,240
like some little code. 
Breaks the illusion, doesn't it?

947
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:45,880
It's like, well, if anybody has 
access to it, then what? 

948
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,000
It's not exciting. 
And I do believe that we should 

949
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,520
still have a little bit of 
mystery. 

950
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,080
You know, now we have like, oh, 
so and so. 

951
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,720
Lead dancer of said companies is
taking care of the company's 

952
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:58,720
Instagram today. 
Let's go behind the scenes. 

953
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,200
Like I love the behind the 
scenes but this should still be 

954
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,440
some mystery I feel. 
Full costume and makeup. 

955
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,760
That's the thing that you want 
people to pay to come and see. 

956
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,520
So I like the whole warming up 
and making a smoothie and what 

957
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,760
you do before the show. 
But like the final product, we 

958
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,920
should be stood in the wings 
before you've put a costumer 

959
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,800
makeup on and be like, now 
please buy a ticket so you can 

960
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,240
actually see what I'm warming up
for, yeah. 

961
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,800
The magic. 
Yeah, totally. 

962
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,320
But you did the same thing to 
me. 

963
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,680
I have two photographs again, 
because we felt like we had to 

964
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,000
rush because we're not allowed 
to do it. 

965
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,120
You did the same thing to me and
you were like, OK, quickly. 

966
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,720
And so there's like a picture of
me on my knee and a picture of 

967
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:37,480
me in the famous attitude, and 
that's it. 

968
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,160
Startled. 
Like, terrified. 

969
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,880
We're gonna get caught. 
Exactly. 

970
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,160
And it's not even the best 
photos at all. 

971
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,840
No, but it's the only photos I 
have of me in costume apart from

972
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,560
the ones that are in the 
program, because they always 

973
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,520
take photos of the new cast and 
everything. 

974
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,960
So there's like a little bit 
who's that random signet like? 

975
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,960
It was of the time and in some 
ways it forced us to capture 

976
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:03,320
those moments in real, like in 
our memories in real time. 

977
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,120
Because how, how often do you 
take a, how often do you see 

978
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,160
something fabulous? 
Your immediate reaction is to 

979
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,320
take a photograph. 
And you can often find you're 

980
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,680
not even looking at, you're not 
absorbing the moment. 

981
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,440
You're literally capturing the 
moment and you haven't absorbed 

982
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,600
the moment. 
And I think, you know, during 

983
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,320
our careers, our professional 
performing careers, we really 

984
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,480
captured those moments. 
Yes, we don't have the, the 

985
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,640
photographic, you know, 
evidence, but we have, we carry 

986
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,120
the evidence. 
You know it is. 

987
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,840
It is a different time. 
My hips carry the evidence. 

988
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,360
My knees and my lower back 
definitely carry the evidence 

989
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,920
and I would love to have a whole
archive of beautiful high 

990
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,520
definition photographs, you 
know, spanning my whole 60 year 

991
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,520
career. 
But you know, it was of the time

992
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,360
and I'm just grateful that we've
we've made it this far. 

993
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,320
Good. 
Well, once again we have tackled

994
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,360
a subject, bitched about it and 
ripped it to shreds. 

995
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,000
It is what we do best. 
But seriously, we've discussed 

996
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,320
competitions, we've discussed 
that they're great. 

997
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,680
They are fun and very good for 
getting performance experience 

998
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:17,000
and learning things that can't 
be taught in a studio classroom 

999
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,200
environment. 
True, and without competitions. 

1000
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,040
Well then El Netan got to be 
glued would go out of business. 

1001
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,120
The smell of El Net though, is 
like it takes me back to 90s 

1002
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,440
ballet dressing rooms. 
I still use it I still use it 

1003
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,160
all the time. 
I love it and in fact, there's a

1004
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,400
stronger version that is really 
now hard to get hold of it's El 

1005
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,120
net infinium. 
So if you're out there, El Net, 

1006
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,280
I'd really love. 
It's in the black tin with gold 

1007
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,880
writing and it's really elusive.
I remember I was spraying my 

1008
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,640
hair before production of Love 
songs for Danish Dance Theatre 

1009
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,240
and lots of the boys that work 
in Danish dance theatre either 

1010
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,600
were either bald or didn't use 
Hairspray. 

1011
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,840
And Tim Rushton comes into the 
dressing room and he is actually

1012
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,760
from the ballet world but a 
contemporary Coke that he 

1013
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,880
literally was like oh that 
smell. 

1014
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,680
Oh it takes me back. 
Oh I love the smell of Hairspray

1015
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,360
before a show. 
It is so. 

1016
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,640
It's so nostalgic, isn't it? 
It really Is it really? 

1017
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,840
Is well, thank you all for 
listening to another episode of 

1018
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,120
Drinks at the Bar. 
Yes, thanks everyone. 

1019
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,280
We only have two episodes left 
of the season. 

1020
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,680
It's gone by so quickly. 
It really has like, I love our 

1021
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,600
little podcast and I'm so happy 
for all our listeners and the 

1022
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,800
lovely feedback we get. 
So please feel free to drop into

1023
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,800
our inbox on Instagram and let 
us know what you would like us 

1024
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,880
to discuss on Season 3. 
Yes, that would be really great 

1025
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,800
and maybe even put in some 
requests for guests. 

1026
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,200
Darcy dot dot dot just looking 
at you. 

1027
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,280
Oh, Denise, it's always a 
pleasure. 

1028
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,760
Take care and I love you lots. 
And actually, I think when this 

1029
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,720
episode airs, I will be with you
in London. 

1030
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,720
Oh my God, I love you too. 
That's very exciting. 

1031
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,560
It's in the diary and I can't 
wait. 

1032
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:15,080
We haven't been in the same room
since your bar mitzvah, so that 

1033
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:20,560
will. 
I was going to say, since we 

1034
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,480
were backup dancers for Michelle
Visage and Phaetos's performance

1035
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:25,960
on The Graham Norton Show. 
Oh yeah. 

1036
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:31,360
Good times, good times. 
No, but like I, I seriously 

1037
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,280
think this is going to air and 
I'm going to be with you in 

1038
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,400
London, so that's going to be 
cool. 

1039
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,360
Fabulous. 
Yeah, I can't wait. 

1040
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,840
All right, we have to go. 
Love you lots. 

1041
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,160
Love you too, Toodaloo. 
Take care. 

1042
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:43,640
Bye darling. 
Bye everybody. 

1043
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,360
Bye, Bye. 
Bye. 

1044
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:46,160
Thanks for listening. 
Bye.