Look at me, Sporting AGI Jane Demi Moore, Seeker, 1998.
You were watching you on Netflix and you'd seen that Pen Badgley
shaped his head after filming and you were like, I'm going
full pen Badgley. No, I literally saw a picture of
me the other day from two years ago, and I shaved my head.
I was like, oh, she looks quite good.
It's like a gay Jason Statham. Jason Gatham.
I was kind of like sick and tired of always having like side
part because you always have to have the same bloody hair in
this industry. We spoke about it before in the
previous episode, always have to have a versatile haircut and
kind of she's she's of a certain age and she's getting a little
bit thin up top and it's fine. My hair looks fine, but like, I
have to really style it and hold it.
And I've got a bit sick and tired of seeing videos of me
when I'm dancing in the studio, putting on social media.
And every time I turn around, I see like a really thin area on
top of my head. I was kind of like, oh, and I
was watching videos that James would record of the show for us
to like, look at notes and look at pathways and stuff.
And when I would see myself, I could see like, only I can see
it because I'm like, really focusing on it.
But then like, I would see like a thin patch on my head.
And it was just like, you know what?
I'm shaving my head again and it's summer.
Yeah, exactly. It's the perfect time to shave
your head. I, I feel that way too.
And then I'm like, and I probably could get away with it
in terms of work. I don't need to worry about my
hair. But I know that every time I've
cut my hair short, I've been like, I want longer hair again,
even though I love the idea of going completely like cropped,
but I don't know. So let's see if I lose.
If I lose half a stone maybe. But for me, I like see myself in
the mirror and I'm happy with it.
But I have to say, every time, you know, when, like there's a
mirror or a shop window, something just like out the
corner of your eye, Yeah, I don't know who that person is.
It's very strange. Yeah, it's because it's.
Yeah, well, it's a big part of your identity, isn't it?
And suddenly the hair's gone. You're like, oh.
Oh, who's she? Who's?
She it's flirting with me in the bakery.
Oh, it's me. Hello.
Me. But I do think it ages me a
little bit. Oh really?
I think I, well, I think I look my age.
I don't think, maybe late 30s. I don't think.
I don't think so. I don't think.
I don't. Think you ever looked young?
I don't. Think past the late 30s.
Even with your long hair, you looked about 75.
Even with your hair extensions you were verging on pensioner.
Right, Should we quickly do an intro and start?
Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is poor James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen, and
I am your host of Drinks at the Bar and today I am joined by my
regular guest host. If Falki Hansen ever needed a
body double for a dance film, she would call Damien Lee Stirk.
Hi everybody, I'm Damien Lee Sterk, director of the Dancer
Studio London, classical ballet teacher, actor with the Royal
Ballet and body double. Here we will discuss everything
from hearing backstage stories, touring shenanigans, to deeper
issues like body image training, the reality of being a freelance
dancer, and much more. With guest professionals, we're
here to share our knowledge, experience, and help you with
any questions or problems you may have about dance and
navigating the dance world. We've managed to get through
that perfectly, without giggling, without any mistakes.
Look at US professionals. And we can see each other for
the first time because I actually printed off this script
in my panic and because normally I work off the directly from the
screen, so I thought that was. Cheers.
Well, the sun was out this morning.
It's now gone cloudy, but she has a Lily and tonic.
Oh we have very similar looking drinks.
I have a rose but they're almost the same colour.
Cheers. Cheers love.
From Provence. Oh oh.
Is that hitting this thought? It really is.
Hi babes. Hi my darling, how are you?
I am good. I have finished Sound of Music.
Oh, finally, well done. It feels like it's been going on
for the last three to four years.
Well, to be honest, we did start with Julie Andrews and there's
just been cost change after cost change.
After cost change. Oh, Jules.
No, it's been, it's been great. It's been like, well, we
discussed it a couple of episodes back.
My nervous breakdown, my midlife crisis.
No, it's been good. It's finished.
Yeah. I'm happy it's finished.
And James is happy it's finished.
We're all happy it's finished. Like it, it played its course.
It sold really well. It's done fantastic, and here's
to new things ahead. Exactly.
Cheers love. Cheers.
Oh, I'm. Just going to be cheering all
the way through this episode. Cheers.
No, it's good. We finished Sound of Music.
It was so much fun to be James's assistant in the rehearsal
period and the creation and all of that.
That was absolutely great. And then like we discussed then
I was swing on the production and that was just the job.
And that's fine, but very excited because it has been
announced so I can say it on the podcast.
We are doing My Fair Lady next season and James is
choreographing and I am assistant choreographer.
Again, excellent. Yeah.
Oh, congratulations and wonderful and what a great
project to work on together. Yeah, so James and I are going
back in the studio and creating. So it's going to be I Cannot
Wait or Brilliant start Creation in November and I'm already
really excited so. Wonderful, darling.
Congrats, yeah. How are you?
What have you been up to? Well, I have just returned.
I was up in Scotland with Alan whilst he was working in the
constituency and we had just phenomenal weather.
It was beautiful. So that was lovely, a change of
scenery. Just before that my parents were
down for the bank holiday. We're still performing Romeo and
Juliet and tomorrow we have a double show day, and then on
Sunday I'm teaching one of my own repertoire workshops with
the Dancer's Studio London at the Opera House.
So it's been a busy old time. And actually tonight I managed
to get a ticket for the Christopher Wheeldon Ballet to
Broadway. Oh.
I wish I could see. That and you know, something,
it's really interesting because it was on the schedule and I
kept seeing it pop up and I thought, oh, and I, I wasn't
entirely sure what the programming was.
I knew that it I knew that it, you know, it was wheel done
fantastic. And it wasn't until last week I
saw a clip of Lauren Cuthbertson doing a little snippet from a
duet to Joni Mitchell. What's her name?
Joni Mitchell. No.
Is that her name? Joni Mitchell, the one that we
all cry to in I Love Actually, when she receives the CD, yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly.
So I saw a little snippet of Lauren dancing tonight in the
studio and I was like, sold. I was like, I need to get a
ticket and I managed to get one for this evening.
So off I go to the theatre. Fantastic.
I mean, it was quite funny because on our episode with
Leanne Cope, she was talking about wanting to go back in the
studio maybe, and I don't know, help stage Liam Scarlett's work
or something. And then it was quite funny to
see on social media that she went back into the studio and
she wasn't teaching, as far as I know, but she was there doing
question and answers about American in Paris and
everything. Oh.
Fantastic. Yeah, it looks great.
So I'm guessing they're doing some of the repertoire from
that, obviously. Yes, yes, they are.
I think 4-4 pieces this evening and tonight is opening night and
oh wow, yeah, I can't wait. I'm really, really excited.
But that's how it should be, isn't it?
I think if you've certainly, if your original cast or you've
spent a long time with a particular project, how lovely
it is to be invited back into the company to offer, you know,
those little diamond particles of knowledge that you've you
were given when you were learning the role and share, you
know. Completely.
Especially like we saw. We spoke about it, I think.
Was it? Yeah, I'm sure it was you we
spoke about. Because when Alice happened,
Zinedi Yanowsky came back into the studio and was helping train
the Queens. That's right.
Yeah, I. Mean, I think it's great if if
it can happen with people's schedules and everything, I
think it's a great thing to do. Yeah, an important, important
and. It wouldn't be an episode of
Drinks in the Bar if we didn't bring it up quickly, but didn't
it also happen this year with Adam Cooper went back and did
some workshops or some couple of hours with the leads in Matthew
Bonswan Lake this year when it started rehearsals.
Yes, that's right. You're absolutely really right.
Yeah. How lucky for them, you know,
from from the original Swan Stranger, or one off at least.
Great. There you go.
You got to have your little Matthew Bourne talk for five
seconds. That's all you get, Matt this
week. Absolutely A.
Snippet of a swan. So last time we recorded, we
actually discussed injuries and we told Jessica to pull herself
together and get the fuck on stage.
Well, she needed to hear it, quite frankly.
Enough is enough, Jessica. It was quite a while ago and as
we've mentioned before, sometimes episodes are recorded
in advance, had quite a few weeks in advance, you know,
because our schedules not lining up or guest episodes being
sprinkled in here and there. And also because I'm a very busy
woman and wear more fleeces and body warmers don't sell
themselves. I just don't.
They're a spokeswoman for 1990s fleece body warmers.
Absolutely a winning style, what can I say?
Well, I was listening to the last time we recorded, which was
the episode that was released last week I think at the time of
recording and I said it is 4 weeks until I go to Paris.
I have now just come back from Paris.
Voila, here she is. And it was great.
It was absolutely fantastic. I took your advice even like I
said, I was already planning on doing it.
But I did go to Jardin de Luxembourg.
Marvellous. And I don't think I had ever
been there before. I think that's why it was on my
list of things to hopefully do. And then when we spoke about it
on the podcast, then I said to tools, we definitely have to do
this. So we did and we went.
And it is beautiful. It really.
Absolutely stunning. And one might think, why did you
not go when we spent three months there performing well,
like, but it was the winter time and it's not really the weather
to be trotting off and sitting in a park in the freezing cold.
So and also, you know, it was Christmas time and we barely had
any free time so. And the free time we have, we
spent at Lafayette and Prenton spending all of our podiums.
But in case my mother is listening, because she always
asked me, are you going sightseeing when we were in, I
don't know, Chicago, are you going sightseeing when you're
doing this? And I had to keep on reminding
her that no I'm I'm at work and I have one day off a week.
Yeah. So yes, OK, fine.
We were in Paris for two months, three months on 2 occasions, but
still we only had one day off a week and the rest of the time we
were working. So and exhausted on on that day
off because it you know. Or hungover.
Or hungover? Yeah, Oh yeah, both.
Or having the flu but still being dragged out to celebrate
someone's birthday. You only turned 21 once.
Oh my God. Yeah.
So I have to say we went to a restaurant called Kong when we
were there. Right.
It was absolutely amazing. Next time you're in Paris, check
it out. I kind of feel like it's not.
It's not in sex in the silly film.
Is it car? Yes, it's where.
She it's where she is, and it's got the Asian faces on the back
of the chair. That's where she meets Big's
ex-wife. Is that where she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Fabulous.
So that's where we went. Oh, how exciting.
So yeah, no, it was a fantastic trip and.
Yeah, ticked all the boxes. Ticked all the boxes and did
exactly what it needed to do. Like it was a great break from
the craziness that this whole season.
Has been oh great, well done. Yeah, Chin, Chin Salu.
Cheers. Cheers sweetie, I'm going to
need to top up in a minute. We're only 5 minutes then. 5
minutes into the into I was going to say into the
rehearsals. 5 minutes into the rehearsals and I'm already
drunk. Little ice cube.
You mustn't crunch ice. It's not good for the enamel in
your teeth. OK, moving on.
OK. Sorry, Denise.
So today I wanted us to talk about competitions.
We will see a lot of things on social media and actually I'm
judging a dance competition at the end of May, but I thought it
was a discussion worth having. Definitely ballet competitions,
dance conventions, TV talent shows.
Let's dive into it all. Well, I think the first thing we
should dive into is probably. Another bottle of wine.
It's probably what we all when
you straight away think dance competitions.
That's what we should talk about first.
You know, the Little Miss Sunshine, 10 year olds up to
maybe 14 year olds in glitter cat suits with the hair and high
ponytails and the whole room smelling of Elnet.
Those kind of competitions. Thoughts.
Well, I, I'm intrigued because that is the vision that that I
know that I have seen, but I've never participated in those type
of competitions. So all I can remember when I was
in training pre vocational and I was around dancers that were
doing competitions, it always felt terribly exciting, like an
adventure. And I don't think I was ever
envious, but more curious because it seemed very, very
specific and niche almost, you know, down to the way the
dancers were dressing and the hair and the makeup and the
musical choices and the, the choreography was generally, from
what I remember, commercial musical theatre, kind of glitzy
bit jazzy A. Little bit acro.
Yeah, yes, actually almost like, you know, figure skating, but
but dancing that kind of, you know.
Figure skating without the skates.
Figure skating without the skates, yeah.
And yeah, the full the full works.
I think the same for me. When I was younger, my specific
local dance school, I don't think anybody went to
competitions and nobody did competitions.
But then when I was a kid I was in a lot of local pantos, Like
professional pantos with grub bags for example.
Oh, classic, classic. And I remember we would go to
auditions and then the cast would be made-up of kids from
around the local area and obviously not everybody from my
dance school. And then I would meet other kids
from other dance schools. And that's when I first heard
about these competitions. And yeah, it was like a another
animal, like I had never heard of it.
And yeah. And it was very, like you said,
this is not a negative thing to say about it, but very cheesy,
very glitter, Very. And that's not being derogatory.
That's just it's a entertainment kind of dance in that makes
sense. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I and I always felt I don't about you, but I always felt,
you know, these competition dances, they're a little bit
they were a little bit tougher, a little bit more St. wise,
which I think in hindsight is great because it obviously
toughened them up at an earlier age.
You know, if a career in dance is what eventually happened for
for said dancer, But I don't ever remember feeling I want to
do competitions. I just knew it existed.
I don't know about you. It existed outside of my kind of
controlled environment of going to the dance studio after
school. But I never felt like, oh, I
wanted to give it a go, but at the same time, I admired the
strength of those competition dancers.
It's interesting, isn't? It and there was something that
intrigued me. Again, I don't think I had a
feeling in me thinking, oh, I want to do a competition.
Yeah. But there was, there was an
intrigue and I think also like, I think probably the main reason
why I didn't think about, Oh, I want to do the competitions is
because I didn't dance like that.
I wasn't like that. So I, even though I did jazz and
I did tap and I didn't, but then I did ballet.
I don't know. It just didn't seem like me at
all or the way I dance or anything.
So I think that's also why I never thought of, oh, yeah, I I
want to do that. But like you said, I think it is
a, it does give kids, especially back then in the like in the
90s, and I'm sure it still does now, gives kids like a bit of an
oomph. And yeah, like you said, a
thicker skin maybe and maybe they're not so self-conscious.
And I mean, and it's great performance experience.
I mean, when you were a low in your local dance school,
speaking from my own experience, the only time I performed was
the yearly dance school performance and that was it.
Whereas if you are part of these festivals or competitions, then
there was other opportunities to perform and then you were, you
know, getting performance experience and learning what it
is to be on the stage with the lights and an audience being
there and getting used to that kind of thing.
Yeah. I'm now just questioning my
entire existence as a pretty vocational dancer because I
definitely didn't participate in competitions.
However, we did. And so grateful now for the
experience. But we did have access to, there
was a show called Variety Express.
OK. And if any of my former
classmates from Dorothy Stevens are listening to this, they will
immediately remember. So this show Variety Express US
used to tour all around the UK and occasionally some of Miss
Stevens dancers Dorothy Stevens, may she rest in peace.
Some of us were allowed to participate.
So it was a variety show, not a competition, but we did have
access to perform on stage. And that really set me up for a
life in in performance because in.
Showbiz. In showbiz, because I managed to
get the experience, but it it never felt like a competition.
Everything, everything was orchestrated piece by piece and
we would come in and do a number.
It wasn't always classical ballet.
There were musical theatre numbers and more modern numbers.
But the experience that gave me stage experience was absolutely
priceless. So maybe halfway between a
competition dancer and, you know, taking class in the
studio. But having having that access
was just such without sounding, you know, but it was a privilege
because as you've just mentioned, most non competition
dancers are probably only doing their annual school show, right.
So, you know, so to be able to step on stage and and have that
experience was, was, was amazing.
So I'm grateful for that. And even though parents were
invited in for like, I don't know, the last class of the term
and they come and watch you before Christmas holidays or
something, it's not the same. That's not performing.
You're in a studio and yes, people are watching, but the
whole experience of getting on a stage and having the lights and
having a costume and having something that you've worked
towards to present and perform is a different thing than just
doing a class and having your parents watch.
Yeah, it is. Because also if you're doing a
class, you're not performing. Like if I was doing the bar and
my parents are watching, I wouldn't be performing the bar,
although my mom would be sat there like smiling and then
pointing at her face saying like, oh, smile, pull, smile.
Shut it, Gillian. Gilly pops, cool it.
I'm in a full plea in fourth here.
Oh, I haven't done one of those in decades.
I don't blame. You either 2 Demi pliers wander
Jean, 2 Demi pliers wander Jean, or two Demi's and then a roll
through. Yes, I do like to have we we
digress, but that's OK. I do like to have a couple of
options for for plies in fourth position and I do and and we
have Tory Trotter to thank for the Demi Demi rond, Demi Demi
rond. And also I like a Demi Demi.
And then you alonge that back leg and then you go Demi Demi
and then you lengthen the front leg and then you place the front
leg down. Try it next time.
It's really lovely when you're sick of the Demi Demi ronde Demi
alonge and then place the foot down and then you can do your
Porter bra. You know which way of and then.
Have a cigarette break, OK? Exactly.
Exactly, exactly. Anyway, competitions.
Well, I think to finish the discussion on that specific,
because it is very specific, that kind of competition, yeah,
Little Miss Sunshine is what I call it, even though Little Miss
Sunshine is a beauty competition, but that whole kind
of world, I think it's harmless. It's completely fine if the kid
is going into it for themselves and it's not pushing mum,
pushing mum, pushing mum and it's hurting the child.
In that sense. I think they're completely
harmless and they're completely fine and it and it is just a bit
of fun and a little bit of performance experience.
I don't see anything negative in it if it is the child wanting to
do it. Yes, because it's a very
ambitious environment, competitive environment.
So you do need a certain level ambition.
But yeah, that has to come through the child rather than
steered by, you know, the parent.
Just because mum Felicity Oh. Giving you evils.
Yeah, I never had. My mother was never a ballet
mum. I'm so thankful that she just
let me get on with it. You know, occasionally she'd
she'd say, have you learned the French terminology yet?
And I'm like cool it Julie, I've been here 5 minutes.
So are you fluent to French yet? Like to see that flick Flack?
Junior. Are you fluent in French yet?
It's been 20 minutes due. Ballet competitions.
Now, I also never did this. I never entered A Prieta,
Lazanne and Adeline, Jenny, any of that stuff.
I never did. And also, to be honest, I don't
think I really knew it existed until I was not past my prime,
but until I was already like kind of working and had a job.
So then I wouldn't do that anymore.
I would have never won or got anything anyway.
But like, that whole kind of thing wasn't on my radar.
At all. Yeah, I think same for me in a
way really. You know, I had my traditional,
let's say RAD training, pre vocational, carried on the RAD
training up to advanced. At E&B.
At E&B and then, but I suppose now those big competitions are
to get access to kind of the world's leading ballet school
directors and whatnot in order to win a place where we were
already at vocational schools. So or perhaps, you know, just to
enter onto the world stage. But I think for us it was a time
without social media. So the world access in quotation
marks would have been limited because there was no outlet to
tap into that world access, if that makes sense.
Because it was, yeah, it was controlled.
And also there, I mean those exact, those exams, those
competitions did exist because I think Darcy Bussell won, I think
the Yaki Yoshida won. Yes, yes.
But I don't know, I just never heard of it.
And I was at, you know, Elmhurst and I'd been at the Royal Ballet
School. I just obviously they didn't
push me forward to it, but I would have assumed I would have
heard of it but I just never had.
Yeah, you're right. I don't recall really much
interest within the ballet world, you know, around me at
that time. So it is interesting how now
that. Was.
Huge, almost used as a marker, like it's odd if you're not
going for those big competitions.
Yes, and I don't know if back then maybe it was only I have no
idea. So this is maybe right as a
message on Instagram, but maybe back then it was only kids from
the Royal Ballet School, kids from ABT School, maybe kids from
Bolshoi School, Maybe it was more yeah, closed.
And now it's been opened up a bit.
I have no idea. Yeah, no, it's interesting,
isn't it, how it seemed to have exploded.
But actually, you're right. You know, icons like Darcy
Bussell had participated. And so it must have been, it
must have been happening. She obviously was good.
Wow. I've heard good things about
her. I mean, one of the reasons why I
wanted to have this conversation was that because it is so out
there now and there's new things every year.
There's that young British dancer, there's a Danish ballet
prize that there's so many competitions nowadays,
specifically in the ballet world.
But also I'm sure they're growing in, you know, the jazz
world and in the hip hop world and all of this kind of stuff.
And I just wanted to, you know, open the can of worms and talk
about it a bit because I can remember being that age that the
kids are now and having something like that going on
around me would seem like a lot of pressure and would seem like,
oh, if I'm not going to get to the finals, then I must be
awful. And I just want to quickly put
out there that if you were going in for these competitions, you
should be going into them for the right reasons.
Personally, I would say that the only the only benefit out of
going for these auditions as a young person is to win some
money to help towards your tuition or to help towards
buying apartment in living in London or, you know, financial
gain to help you in your life slash career in the future.
Because it it is not going to help you get a job.
You winning young British dancer of the year or whatever it is
those competitions are called is not going to go for or against
you in auditioning to be older Billy in the West End.
At the end of the day, we're all going to be stood there in the
audition doing the Rep, and they're going to pick based on
what's in front of them, not on the fact that, oh, did you see
in 1972 he won Young British Dancer?
Like, no, it doesn't help you. Yeah, I think from a resume
perspective, ultimately it's not going to be the one thing that
gets you the job in a room full of very talented dancers.
My interpretation of of these competitions and, and literally
just discussed it, but to go beyond that.
So financial reward, absolutely. If there's a financial prize
that helps you facilitate your training, especially if it's
international, if you're moving from America to London to go to
the Royal Ballet School or Russia to Paris, wherever it may
be. But also an artistic reward in
that it might be that one competition that gets you the
scholarship to go train at Paris Opera School, where without the
competition win and the exposed, you wouldn't be able to afford
it. That is a wonderful reward
because it allows ballet directors to tap into the world
access of dancers where perhaps they wouldn't be able to to meet
those dancers more locally. But I'm at the same time, I'm
sure it's very expensive to participate in these
competitions. So it's kind of like catch 22,
isn't it? Like, first of all, you've got
to have the right ballet gear, the right dance where you've
probably got to to fly. Someone to create a solo?
Yes. So it opens up a conversation, a
dialogue of we know if you're winning a financial and artistic
reward which allows you to go into vocational training that
you couldn't achieve without the competition.
How do you get the funding to be at the competition in the 1st
place? I mean, that's a whole, that's a
deep dive into a whole other conversation.
Yeah, financial. We'll keep that for Season 3.
Yeah. But it's it when you start to
dig deep, it's, it's interesting, isn't it?
The setup, the structure of these international, let's say
ballet competitions because that's the focus and how you get
there versus what the reward is, if you're even lucky enough to
to gain a reward, be it financially or or or
artistically. Yeah, because I'm sure there is
a first, a second, a third place, first runner up and all
this kind of stuff. And if there is not a financial
reward or here's a place that are coveted summer school for
two weeks, if it's not a tangible thing, then I'm not
saying you shouldn't go for it. But there needs to be an yeah,
an understanding with yourself that I'm doing this because of
what is the reason I'm doing this because I want experience
performing. I'm doing this because I just
want to get on stage and have a a nice experience and dance for
some great directors. Or I want to dance in front of
Deborah Bull, who is now the the the same patron.
Patron. Saint Patron St.
The patron of Pete Lausanne or whatever it is like if you need
to know the reason that you're going for that competition and
just be aware that the reason should not be because the
director of Sconer's Dance Theatre in Sweden is there and
he might opt for me a job that that should not be your reason
for going to the competition. Your reasoning should be about
the prize or having the experience or just being
surrounded by other dancers. And yeah, just be.
I think people need to be aware of why they're doing it.
Yeah, and I think all they're all great reasons, you know,
access to world leading dancers who perhaps are there to coach.
Having that access is is already a reward meeting other dancers.
And let's not forget this is show business and you do need to
make contacts and network. Even at that age, if we're
talking kind of pre vocational or on the cusp of starting your
upper school training, you know, you do need to have a strategic
mind and it does help in this business to know to know the
right people. I'm sad to say I.
Mean, I didn't think of that, but that's actually a very
positive thing to come out of it because you could, like you
said, treat. I mean, lots of, not all ballet
competitions, but some of these ballet competitions are like a
mini summer school in itself. Yeah.
You might be coached by Bruce Sampson.
I'm naming people from the 90s. The 90s were were amazing that
way. You might be coached by Bruce
Sampson or have, I don't know, soloist training with Titsua
Kamakawa and. Yes.
Anybody else you want to name for the 90s?
I immediately I'm thinking of I want to name some Birmingham
Roll ballet dancers as well and but I'm scared if we start
naming dancers. You make a book a made of for
example. Oh, my good friend Eric.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's a whole other story.
No, but I do think those that's that's a very good point that
you raised. You know, it is like a little
summer school already itself, just being part of the the
competition and the making of connections.
I didn't think of that. So that's a very good point that
actually, you know, you meeting Matthew Bourne at a competition,
maybe down the road, if you if you get down to the finals of
the audition for his company, maybe he might remember your
face, maybe he won't, but maybe he would.
Absolutely. And all it can take is that one
moment. If you've got two people and
you're thinking, God, I need to cast this role, they're both
great. It can be that moment of oh, I
recognise that dancer from that competition or.
He was a pain in the ass. What about him?
Whatever it is. Well, yeah, it can work both
ways I suppose, depending on what what's happened.
But familiarity can also be the one thing that makes the
decision from the director of actually, yeah, I recognize him.
I recognize her. I recognize that dancer.
Let's let's let's cast them. Let's fire them.
Recognize her? She's not Jessica.
She's got no chance. Wait #26 Jessica?
No, absolutely not. I do apologize for any listeners
who are called Jessica, but these ballet competitions, I
think again, the same thing about the Young Glitter
Hairspray dance competitions is that you have to be going into
it for the right reasons and you need to be going into it with
the pressure from the right places.
You have to be wanting to do it. You shouldn't be forced into
doing it from your mother, your dance teacher, your school, your
whatever it is, it is, it is not needed for a career.
It's you should be doing it because you want to do it
because I know there is also that side of it of because
vocational schools are also businesses.
Let's not forget that there is also that side of it of we've
got 4 kids into Preet Lesan this year.
Your school is also trying to advertise itself.
So if you're not willing or wanting to be a part of it, that
is fine and it is not going to go against you having a career.
The school might be pissed off with you, but fuck em.
You are more important. If you are not comfortable and
you do not want to do this, that is not going to be a a black
mark on your career. You are not going to go to an
audition for Paris Opera and they're going to go you did not
audition for, you did not do Prix de Lazam when you were 16.
No. Nobody cares.
When you get to the big wide world and you are going for
jobs, nobody cares. Nobody cares if you've done a
competition. Nobody cares if you won.
Nobody cares if you lost. Nobody cares that you didn't do
any. No one cares.
I think what's also really important just to remind
ourselves is that perhaps in the moment, if it's you that's the
dancer that's participated or has decided not to participate
in the competition for whatever reason, it does feel like it
matters a great deal of. However, ultimately, as you've
just said, when you get to the point of your professional
career, those things don't matter.
Yeah, it's great to say I came first in the pre Lausanne.
Amazing. That's a story you can share and
it also highlights an achievement and it's telling the
other person or the people that you something about your level
of dance and what you've achieved, right.
It's like you're saying, well, in order for me to achieve this,
I must be good. Therefore I'd like to be
perceived as somebody who is a great dancer and this is this is
the reference, this is the competition, that's the marker.
However, once everyone's on stage, am I going to be able to
pick out the one person that came first at the Prix de
Lazare? No.
No and also I agree with you at the moment when you are entering
that competition it should be important to you.
The reason I went off and won and say like it doesn't matter
is because if you don't want to do it then don't beat yourself
up. If you want to do it for
whatever positive reason you want to do that competition like
anything in life, yes invest yourself into it and go into
100% and work your ass off. If you want to do it for the
right reasons, do it and be proud of your accomplishments
and do it. I'm just saying that firstly, if
you don't want to do it, it's not a big deal.
Also, if you don't win, it's not a big deal.
If you do win, yes, be proud of yourself.
Yes, put it on your CV. But at the same time, there is
one winner and a lot of people who do not win.
And I'm just saying that those people who do not win, it
doesn't matter. Yeah, and they've probably gone
on to have fantastic careers, you know, So it's not, it's a
great marker if you win, share the story, wonderful.
You have a narrative, ultimately see you in the studio.
Who cares? Everyone for themselves.
Exactly. Ultimately, see you in the
studio and I will trip you up. See you in the studio and that
medal will be coming home with me in my bag.
So the final thing I wanted to talk about regarding
competitions was TVTV, talent shows, TV dance competitions.
So you think You Can Dance, Britain's Got Talent, The
Greatest dancer, all these competition shows.
And I think the main thing I wanted to throw in here is kind
of similar to what we've said about the other competitions is
that if you want to do it, do it.
But no one, if you're going to be a dancer as a job, a balance
dancer, a contemporary dancer, a jazz dancer, you winning
Britain's Got Talent, for example, or you winning so you
think You Can Dance is not going to give you a job in a ballet
company and it's not going to give you a job in a musical as a
dancer, as an ensemble. It's not going to give you a job
in a contemporary company. I think that there is some kind
of celebrity factor that the world works nowadays, that it
could maybe get you a featured role in a musical.
If they're looking to try and sell their show through your
name, that could come out of it could.
But again, you, I think you need to go into these things with the
correct mindset and knowing what you want out of it.
I know Britain's Got Talent, for example.
There's a cash prize. No, Think so.
I don't know, to be perfectly honest, I I find those kind of
shows, I can't watch them until maybe like the finals.
I just can't bear watching the auditions that I find.
It's so, so cringy. I just can't bring myself to do
it. Just show me that last top three
probably already picked the winner.
I know you mean, I mean, obviously a lot has changed
since they first came around. And I remember when, you know,
the first of these TV competition shows were around,
it was pop stars where hearsay won.
Uh huh. And.
The whole industry, like the music industry and everything,
you know, and then I think Pop Idol was next with Will Young
and Gareth Gates and Zoe Burkett and stuff, you know, and the
whole professional industry had a very, you know, turn their
nose down at these people who are on these competition shows.
Whereas I don't think that's the mindset nowadays, because I
think people in power within the theatre and TV world know that
that person, because of social media and everything, that
person now has a following. So that following will help them
share this, sell their the show and all that kind of stuff.
But I don't see, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see a benefit
if you want to be a dancer and this is a specific dance based
podcast. Yes, it's talking about theatre,
but dancing specifically if you want to be a dancer, I don't.
I can't see what job you would want out of.
That you could gain from being on one of these TV shows.
And this is spoken from someone who's been on one of those TV
shows. Yeah, I think you hit the nail
on the head when you mentioned kind of a celebrity status.
I think in this day and age with so the social media outreach and
people still fixated on the amount of followers, etcetera,
and what that gives you in terms of endorsements or sponsorships.
I think if you're looking for a career in dance, like a serious
career in dance with longevity, doing something that brings you
joy, having a celebrity status on the back of, let's say, doing
one of these competitions, I think can be helpful for the
reasons you've explained, IE helping to bring an audience to
a show. But I also feel that perhaps you
may be offered roles that you wouldn't necessarily get if you
didn't have that celebrity status.
And that doesn't mean you're the best person for the job because
we all know the best person doesn't always get cast for the
job. There are many reasons why
people find themselves into different roles.
It's just the nature of the business and it's not exclusive
to the dance world. So I imagine the benefits in
terms of casting and financial reward and sponsorship rewards,
you know, it is attractive. But generally, and I think this
is the point that you're trying to make, the dancers that you
see on stage that have gone through schooling, not
necessarily competition dancers, they've done everything in the
traditional order. Those dancers are not generally
the dancers that are attracted to participating in those
celebrity TV shows. No, because those celebrity TV
shows, those Britain's Got Talent, whatever, that's a very,
it's, it's, that's not a career. The majority of the people who
want to be a professional dancer will go through their
professional training and then go and audition for companies
and shows and stuff. Because that's where a long
career can come from. From working as the ensemble in
Wicked for a couple of years and then moving on to being the
ensemble in Joseph and whatever or joining English National
Ballet Company and being there for 15 years.
You going and doing so you think You Can Dance at the age of 19?
Cool, you might win that. And then what?
What happens next about if you want to be a ballet dancer?
Let's take that for example. If anything, I don't imagine
myself as a ballet director wanting to hire you unless you
are principal level. Maybe I can use that towards my
benefit as a company to sell tickets.
But if you are a great dancer who can join my ensemble, do I
really want some, you know, Swan 20 at the back, right?
Being someone from So You think You Can Dance?
I don't know if that if I that means anything to me or if I
want to distance myself from that or I don't know.
I think all of those feelings are are justified because it's
unconventional, isn't it? And I think, yes, I think dance
and certainly ballet should have the room and space to evolve.
And it doesn't always have to be the traditional way, but
certainly ballet, it's the tradition and the discipline
that we respect and that we do try to hold onto.
So it's tough to navigate away from that, isn't it?
And I think casting someone who has a little bit of a celebrity
status just feels against the grain within that genre.
Perhaps more in the musical theatre world, it makes more
sense. But again, only if you're going
for a lead role, because if you are a dancer, dancer wanting a
job in a musical, well, then you're going after ensemble and
then I don't see what benefit you winning.
So you think You Can Dance is going to go for you if you're
going if you're if you're wanting to be a dancer in an
ensemble of a musical because also your job is kind of not to
stand out. Yes, I don't know.
But I I feel by having that elevation of profile through TV
exposure may launch someone who would ordinarily be an ensemble
dancer into a soloist slash principal based purely on this.
The celebrity status, yes, Like we saw with everybody in the
early 2000s, everybody and their cousin who had a tiny bit of
celebrity status was playing Velma or Roxy in Chicago.
Yes, literally. They were like, like the the
people that were in the West End playing it.
I mean, I don't want to name and shame, but there were some names
there that should not have been there.
Yeah, because they had a profile that allowed, as we've
discussed, this is a business. And so being able to tap in that
person's following will sell more tickets than perhaps
casting the most spectacular dancer in that in that studio.
I mean, it happens all the time. If you know who have been on
Broadway and West End in Chicago, you know who we're
talking about. There are many names we could
bring up here. Agreed.
And I think, yes, it's wonderful to give people a shot at
something, but if you want want to, you know, maintain the
legacy of the production, let's say, it does take a certain
skill set to portray that character.
And having a celebrity status shouldn't be the one thing that
allows you access into that kind of sacred world, really.
No, no, because it kind of makes our industry even harder than it
needs to be because then it adds another level onto why I might
not get the job. You know, there's already enough
reasons why I might not get the job.
Shoving on the You don't have enough followers on Instagram to
also play this role is now. It's a tough one, isn't it?
Because you do want to sell those seats.
You do want to raise the profile of the production.
However, you know, what is where do you draw the line on, you
know, integrity versus, you know, just getting bums on
seats? It's a tough, it's a tough one,
yeah. And I'm grateful that I don't
have to think about those kind of financial implications
through staging and. Casting and.
Whatnot for sure. I just want to bring up because
I'm sat here talking kind, I'm not talking negatively, I'm just
talking about these TV talent shows.
I've been on ATV talent show. I was on the Danish version of
The Greatest Dancer, but I went into it at an older age.
I had, I was kind of quotation marks done with my ballet career
and I was going into this solely for the reason of getting an
exposure. I was not going into it with a a
thought of, oh, if I go into this, I'm going to get a job in
said company or whatever. I was going into it to raise my
name and my profile to try and build up my industry name
because I was finding it very, very hard to get choreographic
jobs because nowadays the choreographer name also needs to
be a name because of how the world is changing and how the
world is working. Theatre is trying to sell
tickets as in any way they can. So there could be a celebrity in
the role. The name of the show itself
needs to be able to sell tickets.
Like has it been a 90s movie that was huge?
You know, Mean Girls and Clueless and Groundhog Day and
Mrs. Doubtfire. All these musicals around
nowadays that you know the name of the show is trying to sell
the tickets. You know, Also is Fade from
steps playing the lead to try and sell tickets.
But in addition to that, the writer of the musical, is it KT
Tunstall, that name is also trying to sell tickets and then
the name of the choreographer is also trying to sell tickets.
You know, so I've noticed a lot that the industry is also hiring
quotation marks, celebrities in other jobs, not just playing the
lead. So I was entering that TV
competition to try and build my name up a little bit, not to
become a household name, but you know what I mean?
Get a little bit more known so that when I write to theaters
and musicals saying I would like to choreograph, they could
connect me to the TV show because I thought that would
help me. Also, on the other side of it, I
was doing it because, as you know, I've released some music.
I wanted to also promote myself in that sense and get more of a
following of people to follow me for music and dancing because I
had done my contemporary company work, I had done my ballet
company work. I wanted to try something new
and that's why I went on it. And again, it comes down to what
I said at the beginning. You need to go on these things
for the right reasons and you need to know why you're going on
to it and know what you want out of it and be realistic with
yourself. Because I don't think going on
to, if I was 19 years old and I went on that talent show like I
did, I do not think that it would have helped me at all in
getting a job in a ballet company or a contemporary
company at all. It actually hasn't helped me at
all, I don't think. But I have some very nice
professionally filmed choreographies and dancing
footage of me at my late 30s, which I can now look back at.
And I have that. And that's what I'm happy about
because the majority of our career as dancers in theater,
nothing is filmed because it's for a live audience.
So I have, and also I'm from an age where when I was really
young, there wasn't social media and all of this.
So I don't have that much footage of me dancing.
So I'm kind of happy that I also did this show.
It's not the reason I did it, but like I'm happy I did it
because now I have like videos of me dancing when I was near
enough my prime, maybe a little bit past.
But like, yeah, that's also why I.
Yeah. And it was a strategic move,
having had already had a fruitful professional career.
So yes, you know, you're doing it for the right reasons.
And your expectations were, let's just see, you know, I have
no expectations actually, the reward would be to have a little
bit more exposure to help support, you know, the next
steps as I, as I gravitate towards teaching and
choreographing full time, as you start to crossover into a full
time career. And having the footage is
really, really valuable because you, you are now able to access
that and, and share that. And so it has supported you in
ways that you didn't expect it to.
And it's so interesting. Today I randomly met our friend
Darren, who is also a former dancer.
He's now an actor living in LA doing very, very well.
And we happened to be in the area.
So we met for lunch and we sat in the park.
And we were discussing actually only earlier today how there are
very few images of us dancing. And I'm so grateful to him.
And this is what we spoke about in between a double show day in
the West End. We said, let's, well, it was
actually his idea, his like, let's stay in costume after the
final curtain before we get out of costume for this break before
the 2nd show. Let's stay on stage because a
certain key piece of set will still be placed on stage because
it's there at the top of act one and it's there at the end of act
four. I mean, I'm basically giving you
the show. And we got a few snaps, like
with a real camera. Yeah.
And those are the only snaps really of us in in costume in a
theatre. Like they're like gold dust
because we were over time, you know, so.
And also we're over time where you're not allowed to.
No, it was forbidden. Allowed to take photos.
It sounds ridiculous now, but it was forbidden you and even now I
feel really weird when people are taking pictures.
I'm going, you know, that is not the etiquette, but you know.
No, but it's also because back then it was we're only allowed
to have the the professional photos that are in the program
or the professional press material.
No one is allowed to have yeah, private photos of the costumes
because it makes it makes the show look less than because it's
like some little code. Breaks the illusion, doesn't it?
It's like, well, if anybody has access to it, then what?
It's not exciting. And I do believe that we should
still have a little bit of mystery.
You know, now we have like, oh, so and so.
Lead dancer of said companies is taking care of the company's
Instagram today. Let's go behind the scenes.
Like I love the behind the scenes but this should still be
some mystery I feel. Full costume and makeup.
That's the thing that you want people to pay to come and see.
So I like the whole warming up and making a smoothie and what
you do before the show. But like the final product, we
should be stood in the wings before you've put a costumer
makeup on and be like, now please buy a ticket so you can
actually see what I'm warming up for, yeah.
The magic. Yeah, totally.
But you did the same thing to me.
I have two photographs again, because we felt like we had to
rush because we're not allowed to do it.
You did the same thing to me and you were like, OK, quickly.
And so there's like a picture of me on my knee and a picture of
me in the famous attitude, and that's it.
Startled. Like, terrified.
We're gonna get caught. Exactly.
And it's not even the best photos at all.
No, but it's the only photos I have of me in costume apart from
the ones that are in the program, because they always
take photos of the new cast and everything.
So there's like a little bit who's that random signet like?
It was of the time and in some ways it forced us to capture
those moments in real, like in our memories in real time.
Because how, how often do you take a, how often do you see
something fabulous? Your immediate reaction is to
take a photograph. And you can often find you're
not even looking at, you're not absorbing the moment.
You're literally capturing the moment and you haven't absorbed
the moment. And I think, you know, during
our careers, our professional performing careers, we really
captured those moments. Yes, we don't have the, the
photographic, you know, evidence, but we have, we carry
the evidence. You know it is.
It is a different time. My hips carry the evidence.
My knees and my lower back definitely carry the evidence
and I would love to have a whole archive of beautiful high
definition photographs, you know, spanning my whole 60 year
career. But you know, it was of the time
and I'm just grateful that we've we've made it this far.
Good. Well, once again we have tackled
a subject, bitched about it and ripped it to shreds.
It is what we do best. But seriously, we've discussed
competitions, we've discussed that they're great.
They are fun and very good for getting performance experience
and learning things that can't be taught in a studio classroom
environment. True, and without competitions.
Well then El Netan got to be glued would go out of business.
The smell of El Net though, is like it takes me back to 90s
ballet dressing rooms. I still use it I still use it
all the time. I love it and in fact, there's a
stronger version that is really now hard to get hold of it's El
net infinium. So if you're out there, El Net,
I'd really love. It's in the black tin with gold
writing and it's really elusive. I remember I was spraying my
hair before production of Love songs for Danish Dance Theatre
and lots of the boys that work in Danish dance theatre either
were either bald or didn't use Hairspray.
And Tim Rushton comes into the dressing room and he is actually
from the ballet world but a contemporary Coke that he
literally was like oh that smell.
Oh it takes me back. Oh I love the smell of Hairspray
before a show. It is so.
It's so nostalgic, isn't it? It really Is it really?
Is well, thank you all for listening to another episode of
Drinks at the Bar. Yes, thanks everyone.
We only have two episodes left of the season.
It's gone by so quickly. It really has like, I love our
little podcast and I'm so happy for all our listeners and the
lovely feedback we get. So please feel free to drop into
our inbox on Instagram and let us know what you would like us
to discuss on Season 3. Yes, that would be really great
and maybe even put in some requests for guests.
Darcy dot dot dot just looking at you.
Oh, Denise, it's always a pleasure.
Take care and I love you lots. And actually, I think when this
episode airs, I will be with you in London.
Oh my God, I love you too. That's very exciting.
It's in the diary and I can't wait.
We haven't been in the same room since your bar mitzvah, so that
will. I was going to say, since we
were backup dancers for Michelle Visage and Phaetos's performance
on The Graham Norton Show. Oh yeah.
Good times, good times. No, but like I, I seriously
think this is going to air and I'm going to be with you in
London, so that's going to be cool.
Fabulous. Yeah, I can't wait.
All right, we have to go. Love you lots.
Love you too, Toodaloo. Take care.
Bye darling. Bye everybody.
Bye, Bye. Bye.
Thanks for listening. Bye.