Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is Paul James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen, and
I'm your host of Drinks at the Bar.
Here we discuss everything from hearing backstage stories,
touring shenanigans to deeper issues like body image training
and the reality of being a freelance dancer.
Today I am joined by a solo choreographer with the Royal New
Zealand Ballet. His talent for storytelling has
led him to Dance Park in Midsummer Night's Dream and
Hansel and Hansel and Gretel, and his sharp technique,
movement, quality and musicality has been shown off in works by
Forsythe, Killian and Balanchine.
He is a great dancer and since 2018 has been choreographer in
residence at the Royal New Zealand Ballet.
Please welcome an old friend of mine, Sean James Kelly.
Hello, how are you I'm. Good, good.
How are you? Good.
Feels like it's been such a long time.
I literally was thinking earlier today, I was like, oh, when was
it? It must have been when you came
over to Tivoli to help us when someone broke their leg.
Oh my gosh, yeah. During Nutcracker.
Good old Nutcracker season. Because weren't you on your
summer holiday? Yeah, I was on my, like, summer
break over here and yeah, I was back home and they called me up
and was like, hey, do you remember it?
And I was like, see you tomorrow.
Oh well. Hi, Sean and welcome.
Thanks for having me. I'm happy that we could make it
work, seeing as you're on the other side of the world so.
Completely different time zone. I was going to say, so you're
what, 9:00 at night right now? Yeah.
OK, well I have a cup of coffee because it is only 11:00 in the
morning here. I haven't got myself a drink
yet. Yep, I am on Fijioa Cambridge
this evening so same with you. Non alcoholic but very
refreshed. Cheers.
How are you? Great.
Thanks. Yeah, I've been doing really
well. We just finished a season where
I was both dancing and choreographing, so I had like my
first mainstage Commission, which I was really excited
about. And I'm so glad that it's out
there finally, because I've been thinking about it for so long.
So yeah, I'm on a little bit of a break from that.
So what? Tell me a bit about that piece.
Yeah. So it was titled Chrysalis.
It was kind of just like about a metamorphosis about me and
becoming a dancer and a little bit about relationships and how
you can meet people that change you, that take like metaphorical
layers off of you so you can become yourself.
So it was a real collaboration with Kiwi Scott fashion designer
Rory William Docherty. He's based up in Auckland here
and he just won New Zealand Fashion Designer of the year
last year and he's showing his first ever collection in London
Fashion Week in September. So check him out.
But he made these beautiful garments that kind of resemble
kind of gender norms. So he makes like big over
massive trench jackets and beautiful suits and beautiful
dresses for the women. And he hand designed these
colorful unitards. He hand made the print and we
printed these unitards. So when they took all the layers
off, the big color was underneath, kind of like a
butterfly. Yeah.
So it was a real. We used all them as set elements
too. So we had them hanging from the
ceiling and suspended from the air.
So it was kind of that ominous that it's kind of always there
like for you to reach for that insecurity again, whether you
truly become yourself. Lovely.
Yeah. So, oh, lovely metaphor.
Yeah, abstract, but a little bit of a story.
I wanted to challenge myself, so yeah.
Well, congratulations. Thank you.
Well, as it's a little bit of a metaphor and story about your
life, let's start from the beginning.
Why are you a dancer, Sean? God, if I only knew.
I mean the accent is is hardly there anymore.
Yeah, there's hardly. Any Scottish accent there?
There was when you were in Copenhagen with me, but it's
disappeared. It's so sad, I know, but brought
up in Scotland, I started tap dancing at a very young age.
You know, I just thought it was dancing in front of the
television. And my cousin at the time, she
was doing tap dancing and my auntie was like, oh, how about I
take you along to one of her classes?
So yeah, that's how I started dancing.
I just started with tap. Not even with Scottish national
dancing or anything like that, Sort of with tap.
Yeah, it started with tap and then my teacher at the time kind
of wrote me into the only boy in the studio doing this, that and
the next thing. So I was doing Scottish country
dancing and then a little bit of disco dancing on Saturdays.
But I actually did a little bit of acting first, so I was in
like a panto. So I was Michael Darling and
Peter Pan. So just kind of fell in love
with the theater aspect of it all.
And it was my dad that saw an advert in the paper for the
Dance School of Scotland and Glasgow.
And that's when I decided, yeah, let's give it a go.
Why not? So had you been doing some
ballet before you tried out for the school or had it been mainly
the other genres? No, no ballet at all.
So I was quite lucky. Obviously, being a boy and
having that kind of rhythm behind me.
It was kind of like all skipping bass and making sure that you're
a musical and a little bit of flexibility kind of in that
edition, you're so young, you don't really know what you're
doing. And I was just having a blast.
Like I never really knew what to expect.
And it wasn't until actually, yeah, I started full time
training at night Suede and I went for a dance fitting at the
dance shop. And they're like, oh, this is
your ballet outfit? And I was like, whoa.
And then I just put my hand on the bar for the first time and
the rest is history. That's crazy.
Yeah. So trained obviously in Scotland
and then when you got to the age of 16 you went to E&B.
Yeah, that's right. How was it for you going to E&B
and then in these prestigious ballet schools?
We do lots of different things, but it is majority ballet based.
The training. How did you feel leaving behind
jazz, tap, the acting, all of that kind of stuff?
Yeah, I think it was strange at first, especially coming from
Knights Wood where we had like a musical theatre course as well.
So I was completely immersed in that kind of other world.
And it wasn't until the ballet teacher of mine said, hey, I
think you can do ballet as a career, you should really try
going down this Ave. So I hadn't really thought about
choosing one until that moment as well.
But I think it was when I was auditioning for schools that I
kind of decided, oh, this is where I'm supposed to be.
And when I did the audition for EMB, I just had this sense of
like, oh, this is the kind of journey that I'm supposed to
take. The school would fit me really
well. So I felt like being in London
and being immersed with theater, I had that the weekends anyway.
So I'd go out and see musicals. I'd go and see any show that was
done in Sadler's Wells. But yeah, I think just having
that pure focus on what a career in actual ballet could be, it
was kind of that new vision I had for myself.
So I kind of always knew that you could kind of do any other
dance but ballet. You have to hit it hard and you
have to hit it when you're young.
Yeah, speaking as old people now.
Yeah, what are you talking about?
South E&B while you're in the training, like quite a lot of
students who go to the Royal or A&B, you got used in the company
shows, you got used in Eric's Swan Lake or RJ.
Yeah, I did. Swan Lake and Romeo and Juliet
and. At the Albert Hall.
In the Colosseum and I went on tour with them as well, yeah.
And how was that? It was like amazing getting
picked as a student. You know, you just like, I think
the very probably 1 of the scariest parts was when I went
in for Swan Lake because they were obviously they knew the
ballet, they were rehearsing it and they got to pick which
students joined to help out. So there was like a shortfall in
the quarter ballet and I just woke up to rehearsal one day and
they're like, OK, so you're in for peasants.
And I was like, I don't know any of the steps yet.
Good knows. No one had taught me.
So the company just like pushed me and like, oh, you dance and
you stand there and then you move to the next bit.
Someone pushed me there. Oh, you dance and you stand
there. So it was just like, Oh my
goodness. And I'm on next week kind of
thing in my head. But I think it was really good
learning experience for me. And I think always being fast
and quick, which is something that I enjoy about dance, like
picking up steps and musicality. It's something that I really
like thrived in. And I kind of loved the
challenge of being like, OK, give it to me.
And yeah, it's kind of surreal. Like, thinking back on it now,
you're like, wow, I really performed with that company and
at such a young age and doing different stuff in Romeo and
Juliet, we got to dance with the soloist woman.
We were actually part of, like Juliet's friends.
So we were dancing with solo, some principal ladies in the
company. It was crazy as students.
Yeah, Yeah. And they were always so
encouraging. Like I remember so fondly, like,
Daria always being there and coaching us in class.
And we kind of had like a special relationship with her
because she was doing starting up her summer course at the time
in Prague. So.
Oh, right, yeah, some of us did that with her.
And she's always had that drive for young kids to do better.
And she never made us feel like students, even though we very
much wear student number 123 and four in our purple unitards.
Bright purple. Sticking out like a sore thumb
in the professional. World.
Oh yeah, definitely the only one wearing no warm ups and bright
purple cap sleeved unitard. All the company dancers have
been like Nike sport shorts and like vests or whatever.
Yeah, looking very cool, you know, bandanas, one leg warmer
on, you know. But it's crazy when you think
back to those times because I was an extra in AMB way back
when and you were thrown into a room or thrown into the actual
dance space. And the majority of the company
have done RJ every single year or every second year, whatever
it is, they all know the stairs and it's suddenly like right new
boy, the polonaise go like when am I supposed to have learnt
this? And it's just amazing.
What I mean, that's why we have the training that we have
because obviously there's something in you just switches
on and somehow you pick it up and you follow and you side eye
and you make it work. Yeah, definitely within a
company like EMB as well. You know, they're constantly
touring. They're all around the country
all the time. And we were lucky enough to go
to Barcelona with them too. So we did right of Spring and
Shahrazad with them as like extras as students as well.
So they got to take, we got amazing opportunities out of it.
So I feel very lucky that that was kind of the start of my on
stage experience. And we also got to dance with
Agnes on the Royal Variety Performance as well.
So she performed the Sugar Plum. Yeah.
Agnes and Tom. Yeah, this amazing experience.
We were the core behind them as students and they were dancing.
Wow. And we were on the Royal Variety
Performance, like unbelievable. Incredible.
So you graduate, you finish the school and what's your journey?
What happens there? Well, we were actually doing
Borneville at the time, so we're doing Napoli.
So Dina Bjorn, she was in the studio.
She came in with her little skirt and her little heels,
black tights on and said, OK, let's learn some Borneville.
Yeah, teaching us a few Borneville classes and getting
us ready for our NGP performance.
And it was actually pair that came in to watch because they
were looking for people for Tivoli and yeah, and they were
like, hey, we need you to come to Tivoli in a month or
something. Tivoli style.
Yeah. And I was like, why not?
Let's get out of here. Let's go.
Had they taken any people from your year group into the company
or was there no openings or was that not your journey or how?
So it was kind of at that time that all the funding was being
cut. So it was in the papers that
Northern Valley were cutting 30% of their dancers and they're
losing this amount of funding. And it was kind of the beginning
of people kind of going to places like Estonia and things
that were a little bit unknown to us at the time because we
just, the trajectory for us was that we were hopefully going to
get into the company or somewhere in the UK.
Yeah. So that as soon as I got offered
a job, I kind of jumped to the opportunity.
I was like, let's start now, go start somewhere.
So and obviously working with Dina as well, like knowing
you're kind of getting into that world and there's so much
history there with the Borneville stuff.
I always really enjoyed that so. So you hop on a plane, you move
to Copenhagen. Yeah, you meet me.
And the rest is history. Thank you for listening to
another episode. Yeah.
Thank you so much. So, I mean, for people who don't
know anything about Tivoli, it is a small company.
But I think the major difference about this small company in
comparison to your Ballet Islands and Vienna festivals
and, you know, lots of small companies there are around the
world. This company actually has a bit
of money because it's in the middle of an amusement park,
which, you know, makes billions of dollars every single year.
So actually, yeah, for a small company, there is some money,
and it's not even public funding.
So they don't have to, like, apologize for the money.
They can just spend this money. Yeah.
So the things that we got to do for a small company, like for
example the Bonneville stuff with Dina Bjorn and Peter Bo
himself, like teaching got Tim Rushton.
We, you and I danced together in a Michael Korda ballet that was
created for the company. I know.
And I think that's kind of like was our little connection from
school because he was the director of English National
Ballet School at the time. So he just finished creating a
piece on us for a summer performance too.
And I think that when Peter and pair came into the studio, when
they were looking for people, they were kind of asking if
you'd be interested in doing some choreography as well.
So I think that it's really great that they kind of network
like that and they're really open to like these kind of
collaborations and bring people into Tivoli.
And then obviously for me, my favorite memory with you, and
actually one of my favorite memories of my time in Tivoli,
was you and I dancing triplex at the Polytegon.
Oh yeah, that was amazing. I mean, for people who don't
know Copenhagen, the main police station, like the police
headquarters of Copenhagen is this like massive kind of
Colosseum esque building. And every year they used to do
this summer production in the middle of this like courtyard of
the Colosseum building. And Sean and I and Marshall
Lynn. Yeah, Marshall's.
To Washington's I know danced Tim Russian's triplex and it's
was such a fun piece to perform and such a great place to
perform. Yeah, I think that's one of my
favorite memories about dancing and just the fact that we got to
dance outside. Like I think that that's so cool
now. I think that it all the time.
Like people would sit in the rain and watch us dance with
umbrellas sitting there. Typically you'd have people that
would come every day. I mean, we did work for it.
We did all those shows, you know.
I remember we'd be doing performances off, let's just say
like a Born and Villa programme, and if it was pissing it down
with rain there would be one guy with an umbrella watching and we
wouldn't have to do our job. And they'd be like.
Exactly. You know, you've got 20 dancers
on stage, whatever it is, doing all the tarantellas.
You've just done your solo in Napoli and everything, and
there's a single guy with an umbrella who isn't clapping
because he's holding an umbrella.
Oh, my God. I have to say, though, my, my
major thing about Tivoli when I started there was having to
change your eye line because, like, the audience is beneath
you. Yeah.
And I automatically was like, you know, projecting up to the
to the gods. But that's nothing up there.
There's clouds. Yes.
So that and you're on a rate. So like having to look down and
dance on a rake at the same time?
Yeah, I think it was the rake for me.
Like we always heard, like, you know, in Europe, there's all
these theaters with Rakes and blah, blah, blah, and then
getting into obviously Tivoli and seeing the actual rake.
And what it's. Really like took a little bit of
getting used to but made it a lot of fun.
Yeah, it did. So you were in Tivoli for?
Maybe 2 1/2 years. Obviously made a big impression
on Mitchell on. That yeah, I think that I 11-12,
yeah, summer of 13 I think was my last season and then I joined
Ronnie Stone Bailey and the beginning of 14.
Yeah. I need to mention to Ron Don,
also another favorite memory of mine, us in our red ponytails at
the Royal Danish Opera House, like on our revolving stage.
Almost naked, wearing a jock strap, doing pictures in second
with your ass to the audience. Didn't some of the dancers get
their nipples up? Oh yes, it was the little.
The girls were in basically just a chiffon piece of fabric with
nothing underneath. Yeah, without warning.
Oh yeah, without warning day one.
So you're going to be naked. That's.
I do also remember doing another Danish opera on a wooden horse
with a jock strap upside down. The Danes love to be naked.
Those are the experiences, yeah. Scandinavia.
They're very body positive. Yeah, free.
So obviously we all leave jobs for, you know, whatever reasons
we have our own private reasons or whatever it is why in Royal
New Zealand that is very far away and.
Yeah. What?
It was kind of spontaneous, like we were doing like a galley in
Italy with one of the dancers from Tivoli at the time.
And actually it was my friend Tila, who we were working with
Tivoli. She had a friend that was
working in New Zealand Ballet and Ethan Stifel had just taken
over as director. And she was like, you should
send your stuff there. Like you work really well under
him. Like you should give it a try.
So it's just kind of that why not kind of situation like,
obviously, yeah. He's such a huge inspiration as
a dancer, as a principal dancer, American Ballet Theatre, you
know, center stage, everyone's seen the oh.
Set the stage. Come on.
Come on, Cooper Nielsen. Cooper.
And I was like, yeah, I was really lucky at the time.
They were looking for dancers. And he was just really open and
honest with me. And he was like, oh, please send
me your stuff. I'm really interested in what
you've been doing. The ballet master here at the
time, Martin Bedell, he was Danish, so he kind of knew where
I wasn't, Tivoli. And it was like a little bit of
a Danish connection, just so coincidentally, You know, the
ballet world is so small. But Ethan was like, this is
great. I have nothing right now, but as
soon as I have something for you, I'll get in touch.
And I think it was about a week later, he emailed me being like,
hey, can you Skype? And then I sat in my kitchen.
Not unlike this. I think it was actually the
opposite way around, though. So it was 12:00 at night for me.
I was sitting in my pajamas in my kitchen in.
Scotland. Sitting talking to Ethan Stifel
and he's just asking me all these questions, what I want for
my career. And yeah.
And then the next day I woke up to an e-mail being like, we'd
love to offer you a job in New Zealand.
So yeah. Wow.
And then you said as a boyfriend you kind of suck as a direct.
You're great. Unfortunately, there weren't any
rankings at the time, so you didn't offer me principles so.
Was there any part of you that was scared about going to New
Zealand? Because obviously you just
mentioned Ballet Gala in Italy. And when you're at school
already working in Spain and moving over to Denmark, but
these places are two hours away. Like if anything goes wrong, you
can always jump on a plane and two hours later you're back
home. Was there any part of you was
like? Oh my God, I'm going 24 hours
away. Not really.
I I think when I was at Knightswood I won Australian
exchange competition. So I went over there when I was
15 to V cast Victorian College of the Arts in Melbourne and did
some days with the Australian Valley School and it was an
amazing experience. So ever since I did that, my dad
was always like, oh, I have this feeling that you might like go
back over to that side of the world kind of thing.
And I was like, OK, that's crazy.
But then when it happened, I was like, oh, why not?
There was something in me that just knew that it was the right
thing to do, no matter how long it would be for the time.
I just, I thought I'd be silly to not take the opportunity and
gain the experience that I would get from coming here.
So literally there was no part of you that was nervous in that
sense because of the distance. Not really.
I think it's just, I guess I come from a big family, so a lot
of my career is being away from them.
So like, I miss them a lot, but they live in each other's
pockets back home. My sister actually moved over
here just before COVID and kind of got stuck here.
And now she lives out here. So she's been out here since
really. Yeah.
So kind of having her here. Oh, wow.
It just kind of feels like I have a part of home out here
with me now as well. So I think at the beginning it
was lonely, but I was really here to progress in my career
and get the roles and do do the work.
So I was really focused on that and I was just wanted to grab it
with both hands really. Of course.
And Dave and I on this podcast has discussed many times that
like the one thing with this career, you do have to give
stuff up for it. You do have to and you have to
go where the work is. Yeah.
And that's part and parcel with it.
And obviously to our younger listeners, that's is something
you have to kind of face the facts and you are going to have
to have to, but you might not get a job in the UK or wherever
you are living. You might have to change
countries. And yeah, it can be a positive
thing. It can be a great thing.
It doesn't mean that we don't love our friends and family and
we don't miss our friends and family.
I think the thing that I was really lucky with was that we
did get that like summer break here, which is Christmas for you
guys. So everyone here kind of goes to
their like Christmas batch, you know, out of town.
So everyone leaves like for the first couple of weeks of
December. So we weren't scheduled for
performances after that. So we got our like elongated
break in that time. And then we worked more during
the year, which it worked really well for me because one things
that my family's always like you have to be home for Christmas.
You know, that was kind of like my kind of like safe haven of
like having all that time. That's really special with my
family and it's one of my favorite times of the year, so.
So you have performed in many different styles, if it's story
tape, narrative ballets, modern ballets.
Is there something that you particularly feel that you love?
Dancing I just, it sounds really naff but I just love it all.
Like. I love being a character on
stage. I mean, I think that's what I
learnt a lot actually from my time in Tivoli, playing all the
characters and with Harlequin and Columbine and even like good
old washer women getting to experiment on stage and be funny
and artistic as well as yeah, play and dance.
And that's part of the reason why I loved staying in New
Zealand because we got to do these kind of like mainstage
ballets like Midsummer Night's Dream, Romeo and Juliet, where
you could do these playful characters like Mercutio, Puck
and as well as our series kind of like mixed bill seasons where
we did like Alexander Ekman, William Forsythe, Killian.
It just without 1, you can't enjoy the other.
So yeah, I think that they're challenging in different ways,
but I just love it. But that's great because there
was, obviously there are. We're all different and we all
have different loves and strengths and all this kind of
stuff. And there are lots of people who
do to gear towards the classical side and when it, you know, are
modern pieces in the repertoire, it's not really their cup of tea
or whatever. So it's great that you're in a
company that has such a varied repertoire where you actually
enjoy it all. I think you need that,
especially in a smaller company, you know, you need something
that each person, like you said, is going to look forward to,
like some people will be looking forward to, like Sleeping
Beauty, where others will be looking forward to like the
mixed bill where they get to do more contemporary works.
And you'll be looking forward to going home at Christmas.
Yeah, exactly. With my Turkey and my nieces and
nephews and lots of presents. A little bit of snow if I'm
lucky. Where parts of Scotland are you
from? I'm from Perth.
Perth, sure, Yeah. So just in between Glasgow and
Edinburgh. So kind of like in the middle?
My granny used to live in Aberfeldy.
Oh, cute. Yeah.
Aberfeldy. I'm just down the road from
Pitlochry, so yeah, very close. I love it.
And literally when I went back, my grandma was she passed a
couple of years ago and we went to go spend some time with her
before she did. And I hadn't been back to
Scotland for years. And literally just as soon as I
got off the plane, sat on the train and started going through
the countryside to get to where she lived.
Oh my God, it just like Reawoke that love for Scotland and the.
And nothing ever changes, so it would have been exactly the.
Same, but like being in New Zealand, you must have a a
little bit of home there with the scenery and the landscape.
Yeah, I think that it's what's kept me here for so long.
It does remind me so much of Scotland.
I mean, the one thing that I do find strange even now is I
remember flying in and I was seeing all these houses just
perched on hills. And I was like, why are they
building their houses on top of hills?
Like, we don't even do that in Scotland.
Why are they building on these beautiful hills?
Yeah, but it's. Yeah, it's really got that
scenery that's just the same as Scotland.
The people are welcoming and sweet.
And I mean, you go in a shop and people that still ask you how
you are. Kira, good morning.
You know, like the only other place I know that people do
that, it's in Scotland. Although whenever you do go
there, it does bloody rain. It's the awful weather.
Yeah, it's exactly the same here in Wellington.
It's rainy and the wind blows you sideways, just like home.
So after being in New Zealand for a couple of years, what was
your first choreographic gig? Was it for the company or was it
for Fashion Week? So my first gig was really
random. It was a friend of mine.
She had a friend that was doing a music video and she was like,
oh, do you want to choreograph something for me for this music
video? And I was like, why not?
Got nothing else to do. Yeah, filmed it in a warehouse.
It was really a cool experience and really fun.
And that's kind of where I get it.
Like got the itch again to start creating and then I actually put
myself forward for. We had a in house like
choreographic competition called like the Harry Hawthorn
Choreographic Award. And I decided to put myself
forward for that and I won that in 2016 and I just kind of get
kept getting commissioned since then, which have been really
happy about. You have choreographed for
Fashion Week and I wanted to to ask you because obviously lots
of commercial or hip hop or jazz choreographers have worked in
those places before, but as a ballet choreographer, how did
you feel suddenly going from, you know, choreographing on a,
let's just say a proper stage to a catwalk?
I thought it was really fun. It was really interesting
experience to like creatively challenge yourself.
So a lot of the material I made, I knew it was going to
constantly keep moving forward and then it had to be repeated,
moving backwards. And it was quite interesting
experience because it was for a new I am fit collection she was
doing. So it was lots of like bra tops
and like tights and sportswear. So it was very fitting to kind
of the balletic style that I have, which is kind of a bit
more new age ballet where the ladies are like sliding on
points. So they got to like slide down
the stage and bury around. And I got the man to like lift
the ladies from man to man, have her just like hovering over the
stage. So.
Showcasing her, kind of. Yeah, it was a fun experiment to
kind of bring ballet to a new audience as well, because it
doesn't really cross pollinate that much, which is, I find
really unfortunate. It's such a give and take kind
of thing that we can do, and whenever I get a chance to
collaborate like that, I just go for it and kind of just give my
little style to it and see how it's received.
But do you find that in a situation like that when, for
example, the audience is in a different place to how they are
usually on the other side of the prosymium or and you're now on a
catwalk instead of a stage and the floor maybe is not a
Harlequin sprung floor and all those kind of problems, do you
find they help you or hinder you choreographing?
I think it just challenges me in a different way.
That's the thing, like you can't jump or do massive leaps on
these kind of stages. So I just change it up and do
like different kinds of lifts or maybe feature more something on
the spot. I did a Commission for Auckland
Art Gallery. There was I made a piece for two
men which obviously had the same kind of limitations.
They couldn't jump or do much turning.
It was kind of on like slidy flooring.
So we just kind of developed it around that idea.
And it's also like having that rapport with the dancers and be
like, hey, let me know if this doesn't work on the day because
we can do this, that and the next thing.
So it's having all these kind of different things you can pull
from the piece and kind of change it up on the spot, which
is exciting but a little stressful.
But you think it gives you, I mean, because when I've
choreographed in a weird place, sometimes I feel like it opens
my, my creativity up in a new way because you're forced to not
do the big jumps, the big lifts, the Fuetes or whatever it is.
You're forced to not do ballet steps.
So like you feel a little bit more like, oh, so I have to be
more creative. Yeah, it makes you think more
creatively, and also it gives you some a chance to do
something that you probably wouldn't have done before as
well. Yeah.
Like, because if I'd been giving the piece of music, for
instance, I envisioned the the piece in my head before I said
anything. So having the limitation makes
me think about it in a different way.
And how then the audience see that as well.
I agree. I think it makes you think
differently. And that's what we need to do to
ourselves, to challenge ourselves.
I mean, and also as a, as a creative person, just like with
anything, you can get stuck, you can get creatively stuck, you
can get writer's block or whatever you want to call it and
putting obstacles in your way. Actually, a probably one of the
best ways to help you. Instead of going
straightforward, let's go sideways.
Let's do something completely out-of-the-box and like shake it
up a bit. Yeah, definitely.
It's definitely in the spaces as well that are different shape.
You know, we're so used to having that, like standard
stage, like you were saying. So like, yeah, having the
catwalk long and narrow, like being in an art gallery where
you can only use like a semicircle space and then you
have to walk to a different space with the audience.
You know, it makes you think about dance differently and how
immersive it can be. And also, like you said, it is a
shame that ballet is the majority of time in its place in
its theatre and it doesn't get to come out into the wild as
much. You know, jazz dancing and hip
hop dancing can be in musicals and can be in a theatre, but it
is also in fashion shows on the street, in festivals, in music
videos, in films. And ballet kind of the majority
of the time stays where it is. And it's must be really exciting
to take it out and try and show some fashion people, some
ballet. Yeah, definitely.
And it's people think of ballet as being like this rigid art
form that it's just tutus and a girl teetering about, but it's
really not. It's fluid.
It can be like massive and expressive and it can be human
as well. And I think that when people see
it in those kind of settings, they can really actually relate
to it. And it doesn't become this kind
of thing that's unattainable and you can't touch.
Yeah, because people do have a preconceived idea of what they
think ballet is. You know, everyone always puts
their arms in faith and does like a stupid bullet go, oh,
ballet, twinkle toes ballet kind of thing.
And it's. Yeah.
But you do know it's 2025 and things have changed.
I mean, things have changed since the 90s.
Things have changed since 50. Exactly.
We're not still doing what Alicia Alonso did.
Alicia Alonso. Love her without those people,
like paving the way and changing dance.
So though they were shaking it up, thinking about like, Sylvie
GM, you know, like Darcy Bussell back in the day, like these
people were breaking the norms of what classic classical ballet
is seen as. 100% because Sylvie was when she was lifting her
legs up it was so my God that's not ballet, that's far too
modern or whatever. Like even that was ground
breaking and new. Yeah, and that wasn't even that
long ago. It actually was quite a while
ago. We're talking late 80s,
nineties. We're talking last century.
Oh my goodness, don't. Last Millennium.
So I asked you, as a dancer, how do you feel as a choreographer?
Are you drawn more to modern neoclassical bending new ways of
ballet than creating clean classical ballet ballet?
If that makes sense. It's kind of like a marriage of
both for me. It's using that structure of
clean classical ballet and then like shaking it up, extending
the line, taking it to kind of more extremes.
Like my inspirations are people like William Forsythe, you know,
David Dawson, those kind of people that have that kind of
home language in ballet, but using it to remain fresh and
current and modern. What is ballet now for us?
You know what? What can it be now to tell
stories and how can we use our bodies in a more complex way?
You know, we can move a lot differently now than we could
back then. So it's just kind of like
testing those kind of like limits to what we can and can't
do. And yeah, just playing with it.
But I love the structure of classical dance.
I love the way that it can be expressive and can be
restrained. And you can say a lot just with
your body, you know, you don't have to do too much.
And where do you? This is quite a artsy, fancy
question, but apart from watching dance, where do you as
a choreographer find inspiration?
Oh, music 100%. I just love listening to all
kinds of music. I love.
I love creating to like my favorite pop song at the time.
So I'll just be like jamming to whatever I've got on repeat in
the studio and creating phrases to that kind of fuel me.
Lyrics, some kind of portrait, you know, movies or massive
inspiration. Like being outside in nature is
also like, there's nothing like taking a walk with your
headphones on. 100% it's 100 beautiful music.
But I've been lucky enough to be really inspired by like my
colleagues, like having people that I've created on for a long
time now within the company. It's been such a blessing
because I know I know things that they're capable of that
they can't see themselves. And when you see somebody
achieve that, and when you see them have this epiphany and they
take that with them into the next project, it's really
gratifying to know that you can stretch people in that kind of
way. And they push me too, you know,
in different ways that I can get my point across to get them to
try lots of different ways. And I feel really privileged
that they've really looked after me and taken everything that I
think on board, you know, because it's really hard to
trust somebody else with what you think, you know, as a
dancer. So I feel very privileged that
they've just come along on this crazy ride with me and each time
we create something, it's completely different to the
thing we've done before, but still build, building on the
language which I want to create for myself because as a dancer,
it is. Well, as anything, it's always
hard to come out of your your realm, your safety blanket, your
what you know. And especially as a dancer,
you've been doing this for goodness knows how many years.
So when someone then asks you to move in a different way or to do
something in a different way, that is scary.
But to have that trust with the choreographer and to have the
trust that your colleagues will go on the journey with you and
you're in a safe environment is just is what's needed.
Yeah. And it's it's hard to find.
Those safe spaces, you know, but when you're in it, it's just
magical, you know? It takes dance to a whole new
level. And we do it because it feeds
the soul. And when you have those kind of
moments with people, it really makes it worth it.
And that's why I love being in the studio so much, because so
much of what you see on stage is just that end product.
And you learn so much on that journey from start to finish of
being in the studio. I love being in the studio.
Yeah, it's not the same. Thing that's.
Everyday working on a piece and making it grow and bringing it
to life. You know, it's, it's really,
really cool and magical. I mean, there is obviously being
on stage. And showing the finished product
and performing and all that kind of stuff is great.
But especially as a choreographer or as a rehearsal
director or a member of the artistic team, let's just say
once it gets on stage, obviously there's noting and corrections
and all that kind of stuff. But like your main work of in
the studio is stopped. I love being in the studio and
like molding and working and correcting and trying something
else. And this the studio is just, I
love the studio. It's it's also that.
Kind of. We're always trying to achieve
that kind of like perfect moment, you know, that doesn't
really exist. So you're always, there is
always something to say and to build on and trying it in
different ways. And having that time in the
studio to work on your craft is, yeah, it's so magical.
Like we're there every single day, you know, the performance
is fleeting. It's like a couple of hours one
night. Exactly.
All that work in the studio is really, really important.
Without it, you couldn't have that flawless performance, you
know, And also there's that thing as.
As a dancer, for example, when you're in the studio, it is is
hopefully a safe space so you can fuck up, you can fall over.
You can obviously when you're doing the show, the performance,
obviously you are giving it your all and you're in the role and
you're in the character and all this kind of blah, blah, blah.
But there is a part of your brain that is also don't fall
over. I have to be correct.
It can't go wrong. So you do hold back a tiny bit
than you would in a rehearsal space.
Yeah, you could be selfish in a rehearsal space to use a better
word and actually like, oh, what if I do this?
Whereas on stage you are going to have to hold back as the only
way I could describe it. Yeah, I think that without.
Those times in the studio though, like you know how far
you can push it on stage, so you know, there's just that little
bit that you have to hold back. But without the knowledge of
everything that you push for in the studio, you know that you
can go even a little bit further than you think.
That kind of Gray area of holding back gets smaller and
smaller the more you practice and the more you push yourself
and get to know your body and different ways that you can do
it. So, Sean before I.
Move on to some little pop questions for you.
I would like to ask is there any advice you would give?
Not this sounds like a RuPaul question.
To your younger self. No, not to your younger.
Self because that was a different time.
There was razor flip phones and people were playing snake on
Nokia phones. Now is there any advice you
would give to a dance student or someone just about to graduate?
Right now I think it's just learning about.
The world of dance, you know, the more you can absorb about
dancing companies and techniques and training methods and
different teachers, there's so much to know.
And I think it would just be learning all of that before you
make any kind of choice, you know, and also when you made a
choice, just go with it and be in it wholeheartedly.
There's so many distractions now.
People are looking for the next thing or something better.
I think there's something to be said in making a commitment and
standing by it and then getting something out of that process,
whether it be that you stay within it or you leave.
And I think that it is such a challenging career.
It's making sure that you're mentally healthy to get involved
in dance and have that longevity that you need and that you have
that person you can reach out to if you don't.
I think that's super important, especially in the time we're in
now. You know, it's such a, it's a
tough industry as we know, but I think that this younger
generation of dancers, there's so much out there and so much
pressure to be perfect, you know, these people.
Doing 10 pirouettes on Instagram and blah, blah, blah, people
bouncing on their heads. So I think it's really important
to have someone you can reach out to and say, hey, I'm not
doing so good, help me out. And you can have that
relationship with someone where you can be there for them too.
Yeah. It would just be immersing
yourself within it, making a commitment to whatever it is you
choose, and also making sure that you're mentally fit to take
on those challenges. I think what you say there about
making a. Commitment is really, really
important because we can all make the wrong decision or you
don't know until you try. So let's just say you have ended
up in a company that maybe you don't see yourself staying for
another season or in a contract and you think I'm not going to
renew my contract here, but you made a commitment.
So while you're there, be there wholeheartedly.
And that's the thing with even being in those.
Experiences as well, like you still have that class every day
where you can better yourself, you can change your mindset on
what you're working on and and then decide the next step.
There's something to be said about being present in class.
It's really a really beautiful thing that you have for yourself
every day, an hour and a half where you can better yourself
and any way you see fit, whether it be your Porter bra, your
turns, or just being there. That day is sometimes more than
enough as well. 100% right. I mean, I've stood up many on
this podcast that a lot of the time I have used class as a way
to be artistic or a way to be creative, a way to dance.
Because you're just about to go into the studio and just do
rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal.
And it might not be a piece that is very creative for you.
So you use class as a mental thing instead of a physical
thing 100%. Oh, hi Sean.
I have some questions to. Ask for you asking.
Go on then. OK, Oh, we've actually touched
on some. Of these already.
So where is the most amazing venue you've ever performed?
Oh, that is so tough. We went on tour to Italy and we
performed in a theatre in the Vatican City.
That was pretty cool. Wow, this theatre's in the.
Vatican City, Yeah, it's just like on the outskirts.
Of the Vatican, it was amazing. We got still like a mixed bill
performance there. It was really, really fun.
Our director at the time, he was Italian, so he took us on a
international tour to the UK and Italy, and that was a really
amazing memory. But actually love performing in
our home theater here in Wellington, too.
It's just being renovated, the Saint James Theatre, and that's
where our studios are based as well.
And it's just, there's nothing like that old fashioned theatre,
you know? Yeah.
And the smell of the. Dressing room?
Yeah, the damp carpets, you know.
The old rosin box in the corner that.
Kind of has this weird musky smell.
Yeah, the draft coming up from. Underneath the floor.
Gotta love it all. Right do.
You have a favorite dancer, whether it was when you were
growing up or even still to this day.
Now. Is there that one person?
Not really. I really was inspired.
By like Michael Flatley, like on the television, you know, doing
this little tippity tap. I just I.
Love the ballerinas, you know, like Sarah Lamb.
Like, I remember going religiously to watch her at the
Opera House. Whatever she would do, I'd just
be like, oh, she's so beautiful. Yeah.
Sarah Lamb's lovely. Yeah.
It was that kind of like. Being there to support the
ballerina, I really like, loved that when I was at school.
I love doing that kind of like pot of dough work.
Yeah. Sarah Lamb got a love.
A ballerina, Yeah. It's just like with your pop
Divas. We love the Kelly Clarksons and
the Britney's and the Mariah's. We love the ballerinas.
Field power. Yeah, can't be in this industry.
Without them, all right, what is the?
1st. Theatre or dance production you
ever saw? Oh my goodness.
And this is not. Watching the recording of.
Yourself as Michael Darling? No.
Singing in the rain. I saw it sadly as well as we
did, like a a school trip or something like that, and it was
singing in the rain. Yeah, cool, my friend was
probably. In it, I mean, I don't know.
How young is he? Oh, that's.
A nice way to put it. He's 45.
Do. You have a.
Favorite all time ballet production?
That's tough not. To be in, to watch, it's hard to
get. Past the white accent.
Swan Lake, to be fair, they're just so beautiful and like, as I
said before, like ballets about the ballerinas, you know, the
athleticism of those dancers that sustain those acts.
Just even the beautiful quarter ballet girls at the side that
that take you and transform you into a place that you've never
been before. You're just sitting there at the
lake and those White Axe have everything.
They have everything because they've got like the ensemble
stuff, They've got the Paradise, they've got quartets, they've
got solos. I mean, the White Axe and Swan
Lake are just, yeah, perfection. And Giselle, you know when
those. Women come out and they're like
doing their hops in Arabes, You know, the whole theatre's
shaking and everyone's like, wow.
The girls every time they hop. Kill me, kill me, kill me, kill
me. Yeah, they're like, no, not.
Another one. I've got 75 more performances.
Oh my God. And Baya Deir has an entrance
like that, doesn't it as well? Oh yeah, the shades arabesque
the. Shades down the ramp.
Down the ramp, there's another one being that.
Being that poor first. Girl out.
You know when we did Matt Swan Lake I.
Was the second boy out as a swan?
Oh kill me. Gosh, my shins have never
forgiven me. I'm not surprised.
But yeah, that is such a beautiful production, though.
Like, I wish that I'd been involved with this one.
Like, I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking,
wow, what a different creative way of looking at classical
ballet. Like, at the time it was.
It was groundbreaking and still such a beautiful piece to see
now. Yeah.
Well, it wouldn't be this podcast.
If we didn't bring it up. So there you go, Matt.
Hopefully you're getting your royalties.
So what was the last piece of music?
Or song you listened to. Oh K pop demon.
Hunter is golden. I can't even I'm I'm literally
waking up singing it. I've watched it for the first
time like 2 nights ago. I am absolutely obsessed.
I was going to sleep singing it. I woke up this morning singing
it. See, I'm stuck on the.
Abe's new song Shook I just love.
How everyone is bringing back music, though, You know, Sugar
babes are back bringing back music.
Steps came back. They gave me everything I
wanted, you know? Please.
They're even bringing back the flip phone.
Come on. Oh well, yeah.
All right, so. What is a song or a piece?
Of music that always makes you want to dance, not necessarily
choreograph and create makes you want to move your body oh I mean
anything by. Shakira.
These hips don't lie. Also I love.
Max Richter and oh, Max Richter Vivaldi.
Four Seasons is. They're one of my favorite
pieces of music classically, so yeah, see lots of depth here.
Classics and K pop. Classics and K pop.
With a side of Shakira. Do you have a favorite?
Teacher that you've ever had, whether it be open class or at
school or yeah, we got taught by.
Cynthia Harvey, when I was at English National Ballet School,
and I just remember her classes so, so vividly.
She was so inspiring and obviously being such a amazing
ballerina herself and having that amazing career.
But she was there for us in the room.
And as a student, I think you don't forget people that come in
and make you feel like that, make you feel seen.
So yeah, she's inspiration. And I remember those classes
fondly still now, even though they were so long ago.
I mean, there is something to be said about teachers.
Who come in and, yeah, find that they've had a fantastic career
and they, their word is gospel. But the ones that make you feel
that the class is about you as the dancer and you as the
student and not about them teaching the class.
There's something to be said about that kind of way of giving
a class. It just felt so personal.
And she was. There for each individual
student as well. All right, my favorite question
A. Memorable time you made a
mistake or forgot an entrance or something on stage.
It wasn't me, but I was doing. This new Cinderella a couple of
years ago and there's this moment where I'm supposed to
have this bouquet of flowers and as the Prince, I'm supposed to
give it to Cinderella and one of the core dancers forgot to bring
on the bunch of flowers. And then we're just both
standing there going what do we do now?
And the whole like next part of do was a awkward part of do
about her getting smacked in the face with flowers.
So that's not having the prop. I was didn't know what to do.
I didn't know whether Tapper in the head like what?
How do we make this Aqua part of the funny and comical without
this prop that's supposed to aid us?
That's probably the most recent strange thing that's happened on
stage. Actually, you know what?
I. Remember when we did Torn dot
with the jock straps and the ponytails?
I remember. I can't remember his name and I
don't want a name and shame. Did we go down and?
We were all in our costumes and he had his trackies on and he
took his trackies off and put them on like behind the totem
pole. But we want to fucking revolve.
Yeah, it turned around. And his track pads were on
stage, Yes. Oh my goodness.
I mean without making those mistakes.
Though you know you never do it again.
You never do it again, but also. Like if everything was perfect,
it would be fun. Yeah, I know.
And then what? Kind of stories would we have?
It'd be boring, you know. Do you remember your entrance?
In Michael Corda's piece, you would enter from the wing and
just jump and land in like second arms through 5th and the
the sound technician, the stage manager, had to give a go to
land on the music. The music, yeah.
And I just. Remember you, you landing.
Jumping on stage and it felt like half an hour before the
music goes. But, I mean, it was probably
about, you know, 3 seconds. But still, it's very obvious
even to an untrained eye that the music was supposed to catch
you as you landed. It's like Sean Lance did it.
Yeah. There's a famous story here.
During Swan Lake, the ballerina came on and she did her split
jetty, bum bum, and then the music just didn't keep going.
She had to go off and we had to restart the music again.
She did the entrance Bum bum happened again.
Happened three times. Checked before they even see her
coming. I mean live.
Theatre technical difficulties, you know, Still.
Still with us? Nothing quite like live theatre.
No. Oh my God.
All right, Sean, final question. Tell me a story about the best
premier party or final night party you've ever been to him.
I think the parties at Tivoli were.
Pretty epic. I'm not going to lie.
Yeah, there were. Yeah, the Danes.
Do you know how to party? We actually had a party here
with Johann Koeberg as well. He came over to set Le Lutan for
us in my first year with the company and he just decided that
he was going to leave a week early.
So we all went out for a drink to say goodbye to him and it was
so much fun. And then the next day the
company manager was like, where's your hand?
And we were like, I have no idea.
I mean, there was something to say about the.
Parties in Tivoli because there is something very strange that
you hardly anyone experiences walking through an amusement
park when it's closed at 4:00 in the morning.
Oh my gosh, it just, it felt. Like a fever dream, like a kid
dream. You know, it's, it was such a
magical place, you know, getting to be behind the scenes there
and like going in and out around all of like the roller coasters
and like the rock festivals. And we were so lucky and we did
Tiffany school. Do you remember Tivoli?
School. Oh my my God, Tivoli school.
Cute they teach you like the the history.
Of the park, but then also then yeah, take you inside some of
the roller coasters and stuff. I loved it.
I remember actually talking about.
Parties. Every party used to have like a
party committee. You and I did a party together.
Yeah, we did a party with. Jen no.
With Tori, was it Like, what was it?
Like kind of Bollywood theme. Yeah, I can't remember.
What it was, I just remember us being like, come in everyone,
woo. And I think that was a good
thing about. Tivoli, like we worked really
hard, but we knew how to enjoy ourselves and make it fun, yeah.
Professional now. Well, thank you very much Sean
for joining me today. It was lovely catching up with
you and thank you everybody to and thank you everybody.
I can't do it when you're. Staring at me.
You're nearly there. And thank you everybody for
listening. To another episode of drinks at
the bar if you have enjoyed the episode, please give a little
rating and share with your friends Sean is being lovely
thanks so much for having me you know it's.
Been great catching up take. Care you too.
Bye for now. Bye.