Hello and welcome to Drinks at the Bar, a podcast where we
breakthrough the 4th wall and discuss everything about dance
and the theatre industry. My name is Paul James Rooney, a
dancer, choreographer and dance teacher based in Copenhagen, and
I am your host of Drinks at the Bar.
Today I'm joined yet again by my wonderful guest host.
She is 80% leg. It is Damian Lee Sturck.
Oh, God, that's ridiculous. And actually, I had a fitting
last week and I said, oh, can we just adjust the elastics on my
tights? Because I could do with them in
a bit, a little bit tighter. And she said, yeah, well, you do
have the longest legs in show business.
Thanks. Hi, everybody.
I'm Damien Lee Sturk, director of The Dancer's Studio London
classical ballet teacher and actor with the Royal Ballet.
Here we will discuss everything from hearing backstage stories,
touring shenanigans, to deeper issues like body image training,
the reality of being a freelance dancer, and the length of
Damien's legs. With guest professionals, we are
here to share our knowledge, experience, and help you with
any questions or problems you may have about dance and
navigating. Navigating.
Wait, you just just need to say and navigating.
Easy for you today. Wait, wait and navigating the
dance world or finding the right trouser length.
Hi Denise. Oh, hello.
Straight away I'm thirsty so I'm going to say cheers.
I have an elderflower spritz yet again because those botanical
flavours really did something for me.
There's something in the way you say botanical that makes me
giggle. It's so funny.
Botanical. Botanical.
It's medicinal, yet botanical. I'm on the gin and tonic because
I'm back to a classic, a traditional beverage of mine.
So cheers, Chin, Chin. Cheers, love, cheers.
No one would guess that that intro took 45 minutes.
So you just talking about your leg?
We were just talking about your legs and just made me think
about the episode a couple of weeks ago with Hampi.
Do you remember back in? Oh, it's now probably, I don't
know, probably about 10 or 15 years ago.
Do you remember his profile picture on Facebook used to be
his foot? Yes.
Oh my God, his. Feet.
Delicious. Deliciousness.
Yeah, those feet. Beautiful.
Absolutely beautiful. Talking about tights though, I
literally saw on Instagram yesterday I can't remember what
ballet company it was but it was a big ballet company and the
male dancers wearing tights with the seam going up the front.
Why does this still exist? Why do we still have seams going
up the front that gives everyone hofage to camel like we This
needs to stop because if you, if you buy, for example, from
Yumiko for class, some hot pants or tights from Yumiko for class,
there's seams up the sides and up, you know, in the middle, but
then it doesn't go up the front. Speeders don't have a seam up
the front. Why are we having the seams up
the front? If we if we can do without it,
then why are we, why are they still inventing it?
I don't I can't answer that, although I I am.
Do you not make the tights for each company?
No, but maybe I should. I don't know it because it's
clearly just a design selection. They've chosen a selection from
a collection. It's a rhyming episode.
So stupid. I don't know why, but when I'm
choosing some swimwear, for example, because you and I are
quite partial to a little bit of the brand Aussie Bum, some of
the swimwear has a seam up the front.
And we've made that mistake before.
You know, you have to choose something that's smooth at the
front with seams at the side. So I don't know why ballet types
are still being made for men with scenes up the front.
It's very odd. It is very.
Odd. Odd, because it's not.
Flattering. No.
No, it's not flattering at all. Anyway, so that was a random
sign note. Hi, how are you?
Well, now I'm pondering a seam in a ballet tight, which I
didn't think would be part of my agenda, but I'm good.
Thank you. I'm very well.
It's without sounding too English about discussing the
weather. I will discuss the weather.
It's very cold, it's dropped in temperature.
So we're starting to introduce, you know, a glove, a fingerless
glove, a scarf, a little snood, which I do like this time of
year, but I am a warmer temperate, a temperature kind of
gal. Yeah, I mean, I've when I put on
my winter jacket and started wearing glasses like, oh, I'm in
Copenhagen, obviously. And I think she was like, oh,
it's this now. Until April.
Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?
And it's going to get colder. And anyway, it is what it is.
But, and I do love dressing for that time of year.
I love like an oversized double breasted coat.
I like the whole look. I think it suits me.
I'm not a shorts person. I'm not a flip flops person.
So I do like this time of year from a fashion perspective, but
I'd much rather be, you know, in the Maldives.
But I think I preferred it in England as well because
obviously, well in London, because I'd get on the Tube, I'd
walk a little bit 5-10 minutes, 15 minutes outside or whatever
it is. It's the cycling here because I
can't get away with just having a nice long double breasted Moss
Bros coat or whatever. Like I have to have a proper
Canada Goose coat because I'm cycling for 20 minutes in the
snow or in the rain or whatever. And so it's not really the
fashionable choice. No, it's just probably not to
die of hypothermia. And again, the winters do do
last long up here in Scandinavia, but we love it for
whatever reason. Cheers.
And welcome to winter.
And welcome to the bleak winter months.
Welcome to Nutcracker season. And Nutcracker season.
So I was thinking the other day about the pop stars and the TV
shows that we grew up watching. And I say we grew up because we
are very close in age. It's only 30 years between us.
But you know, when we grew up, there was firstly, every pop
star seemed to dance, like whether it was a little hokey,
pokey little routine, but every pop star seemed to dance,
especially the female pop stars. But even, you know, all the boy
bands, they all did choreography.
Everybody danced and there was Top of the Pops, there was CDUK
on Saturdays. There was a lot of we were
surrounded by dance. Like if you think about it,
there was a live performance every Friday with the biggest
pop stars of the day with backup dancers every Friday.
And when CDUK started every Saturday, that's a hell of a lot
of jobs that were around for dancers and also for the
audience, A lot of dance that was being seen and it doesn't
exist anymore. You know, something that's
something I haven't I hadn't quite considered.
But, yeah, thinking back to when, you know, you and I were
dancing full time here in London in particular, You know, we did
have friends that we were at school with or friends of
friends that were dancers. And they were doing all those
kind of shows, you know, dancing on TV, you know, for Kylie, you
know, for other huge stars. And it was a real job for those
commercial, more commercially inclined dancers.
Where now? Yeah.
Where have they? What are they doing?
Where the jobs? Yeah, because it I again, I
think from kind of like Top of the Pops to those variety shows
and all those backing dancers, they kind of had a route through
that commercial line. But now that the trend has not
so much past, but there's just less opportunities for those
dancers who I wonder what they where they ended up if it wasn't
on let's say a Western stage or they came back to their roots.
I mean, it's just for me, I was really thinking that, you know,
that Top of the Pops, especially because CDUK was more of a, it
didn't run as long. Top of the Pops was when my mum
was a kid. Yeah, up until when I was an
adult. Like it was a long TV show and
it was every single Friday. And also back then, yes, the
music industry had more money because you made more out of CD
sales and all this kind of stuff.
So firstly there's Top of the Pops that had dancers, but also
nowadays only the massive artists have dances in their
music videos. Lady Gaga, Beyoncé kind of about
it. But back then everybody had
dancers in their videos, like, you know, 5 Bewitched.
I mean, Kylie is a huge person, but Emma Bunton, when she went
solo, I remember some of my friends were dancing for Emma
Bunton in her videos that everybody had dancers and
probably about, you know, 10 to 15.
I mean, remember Jerry Halliwell releasing its reigning men?
They were proper routines. Also, they were really
choreographed. It wasn't just like a step
together step together or trying to look sexy or or flirtatious.
It was a proper rehearsed full routine.
And it would be 20 dancers. Yeah.
Like, I mean, think back to the days of the Kylie album, Is it
Fever with Can't Get You Out of My Head and Love at First Sight.
Love at First Sight was choreographed by Raphael
Bronicella, who is now the director of Sydney Doskam.
I have friends in that I have a funny story, but anyway, that's
another time. Dance when we were growing up,
especially like 90s and early 2000s, was really tangible.
It was in front of you everywhere.
And it just got me to thinking that where is it now?
Because the only place I see dancing, and I use the term very
loosely is TikTok. And TikTok is run by algorithms.
So like, obviously the most popular thing is what is getting
thrown at you. Whereas back in the day, if it's
like Top of the Pops or whatever, a producer, a human
being is deciding what you're watching.
So then there is going to be a mix of different things being
shown to you. Whereas nowadays, you see, I
know it's going back a couple of years, but everybody doing the
Megan Trainer dance, you see the same thing over and over and
over and over and over again. You're not seeing dancers
dancing to Annie Lennox. Why?
Or you know what I mean? You're not seeing different
genres, you're not seeing different ideas, you're not
seeing different thoughts. You're seeing what is popular at
the moment and that is it. And again, lots of the time it's
not professionals, it's people dancing around in the living
room. There's not.
It's not the same as what we grew up with, seeing dance
everywhere. No, it isn't.
And we had an enormous amount of access to dance through the
television, you know, MTV, of course, that, you know, had just
back-to-back 24 hours. And, and the trend was in the
late 90s, two thousands, you know, music, a music video was a
really considered and constructed event.
It hadn't most of them had a narrative and pretty pretty sure
most of them had some content of dance because unless it was a
ballad, of course, in which case it had, you know, a different
theme or whatnot. But now, of course, things shift
and evolve and change through time and trends change.
And then, you know, now we have social media.
We're over saturated with these little mini snippets of learning
dance routines, which if it's happens to be your track that's
trending, can do wonders for, you know, streams.
But it's a different world, isn't it?
And it's a different world also in terms of what we're seeing
choreographically. We're seeing quick routines
really for access to the non trained dancer.
Anybody can do it, which is great.
It's access for everybody. Whereas the pop stars of our
time were doing real choreography that was set in a
dance studio, probably at Pineapple Dance Studios with a
rehearsal director of choreographer within that
traditional setting that we're really familiar with.
So it's it's changed enormously. Yeah, because social media is
about you learning you. It's about everybody's sharing.
So it is the non professional dancer sharing that they've
learned Lizos routine or whatever and everybody's doing
that because it's social. It's not a professional.
Yeah, it it, it is, is different.
So it again, the the level is not there.
You're not getting thrown in your face.
Unless something trends like the Gap commercial did couple of
months ago, then everybody sees some amazing choreography and
some amazing dancers. But the majority of the time,
yeah, it's fantastic. The majority of the time, unless
you follow dancers, unless you follow Brian Friedman, Tina
Landon, whoever, then you will just see your average Joe
learning a routine that they've seen on TikTok and doing their
version of it. And it's very different to what
we grew up with because it wasn't because we were
interested in it that we watched dance.
Everybody watched Top of the Pops, everybody watched CDUK,
every single person was watching these dancers every Friday
night, whether you wanted to or not.
No, definitely. And I just have a thought, you
know, as a child going to kind of social events with your
parents or your family, like a family members birthday party,
you know, our culture was certainly to have or host like a
birthday party with a disco. And there were routines that,
you know, my mother used to teach me.
Like I remember dancing on the dance floor, dancing to like
Bananarama or Wigwam Bam or you know, I mean, I'm talking a long
time ago and I'm definitely showing my age.
However, and your mums. That was part of our.
I'm my mother. She'll kill me, you know?
But that was ingrained. Like, it's interesting, you
know, the concept of learning choreography, even if you had
nothing to do with the dance world or envision becoming a
trained dancer. So yeah, the culture has
definitely shifted because we've lost all of that programming.
We then went on to obviously your X Factors and Pop Idol and
Pop stars and stuff, and then there was a show every single
Saturday. But the majority of the time
it's about the singing. And yes, maybe in the finals or
the semi finals there might be a big dance routine or I think X
Factor. There was a little bit more
dancing throughout. But again, that's all
disappeared really because people don't watch TV anymore.
Like TV is dying. People don't watch.
In Denmark, we call it Flow TV, like, you know, turn on the TV
and use the remote control, the clicker, the box, whatever you
want to call it and see what is on right now.
Because back in the day, we would all sit down at 7:00 and
watch pop stars or X Factor or whatever it is.
And then we would all be watching, you know, your
audiences of 30 million or whatever, watching the same TV
show every single Saturday night, watching these dances,
Whereas now everybody's on their streaming services.
So that side of the industry, which was after our childhood
because we didn't grow up with X Factor and stuff like that, that
was way after us being kids. That's kind of followed on from
Top of the Pops in City, UK. But now even that's kind of
disappearing because not many people are watching live TV
anymore. It makes me think where, where
is dance? Where where is dance apart from
in a theatre nowadays? Like is, is it as tangible?
Is it as accessible? Because the the music video is
kind of dying. I can't think of the last time I
watched a music video. Not not an entire music video.
Like if I like a specific artist, let's just say Britney
releases a song tomorrow, I would make an effort to see her
video. Whereas back in the day, lots of
the time, MTV was just on in the background, or you'd go to a bar
and MTV was playing videos constantly.
You'd go to, I don't know, GAY bar, which is now just closed.
You know, they'd be constantly just showing music videos.
And we don't know those music videos.
We'd all seen them. Whereas MTV now just show
reality TV shows. There's no music to do.
Do people even know that MTV stands for music television?
Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? We've lost a lot of access, but
you know, and there's something and it's interesting that you
mentioned turning on the TV and kind of floating.
You know, I that's exactly what I did in Liverpool on tour a few
weeks ago. And, and in my mind it was
purely for nostalgic reasons. I thought, I said to myself,
I've got a couple of hours to myself pop on the TV and just
see what's on the TV. And it felt very nostalgic
because I never turn on the TV because we have laptops and
things, phones we can watch whenever, whenever we want.
So, but I certainly didn't TuneIn into anything that was
dance related. But I do have fond memories of
Top of the Pops. You know, you have to remember
every household would TuneIn without fail.
And seeing your greatest pop stars on TV was such a thrill.
And for me, for me, and we're talking mega stars like Madonna.
All in the same room, all in the same.
It's an English production in BBC Studios.
And you have got, yeah, exactly what you're saying.
Everyone from Madonna to Aqua to Backstreet Boys to someone hit
Wonder to. Mr. Blobby.
What exactly? Yeah, they'd all be performing.
They'll all be in the same dressing room or whatever.
Yeah. I loved, I loved it and just and
yeah, just seeing them and having that access and of
course, pre social media, pre smartphone.
So, you know, you had no choice really.
That was pretty much your access unless, you know, you were
buying those magazines or, you know, smash hits or, you know,
keeping up to date with all the radio and hearing kind of the
hit list and whatnot. But but who who are your most
nostalgic pop influences, influencers of of what kind of
informed your kind of adolescence?
I. Mean keeping it into dance.
I was hugely influenced by Britney, like I think I did.
I clock onto Janet before Britney.
I was quite late to the Janet train because I my very first
music I was listening to was kind of you listen to what your
parents listen to. So I remember my first cassette
that I had was Cyndi Lauper. And then I'd be listening to
like, Bryan Adams and Bon Jovi and Lightning Seeds and all this
kind of stuff, and then Spice Girls.
Yeah. Big Spice Girl fan, but a gay
boy in the 90s who wasn't a Spice Girl fan.
A lot of cheesy pop But then when Britney came on the market,
it was the dancing. Suddenly I was like, oh, this is
not because like we said earlier, everybody dance the
Spice Girls danced, but Britney danced like proper trained
dancer dance and the choreography and the dancers
were whopper dancers. It wasn't a step, clap, step,
clap, turn around, point at the camera.
Who do you think you are that it wasn't that kind of like follow
at home choreography, which steps did, which Spice Girls did
that kind of thing. Britney was suddenly doing
dancing and that really drew me in.
And I think then I went down a rabbit hole of where's Britney
got her influences from and then find out about Janet Jackson and
then go down that and then Janet became a massive.
Influence and inspiration after that, because finding these
artists that were your proper, it's not triple threat because
they're not, they're acting. But you know what I mean?
Proper a singer and a dancer, someone who could do proper,
calling it proper dancing, but you know what I mean.
Trained, technical, complicated. Trained absolutely.
Because you know, Britney's there.
It sounds silly, but like to see a pop star back then stand
there, sing a song in Baby One more time.
And in the video I can remember to this stage, she stands there
and does like a triple pencil turn and then kicks her face
with her left leg doing a kick to the front.
I'm like, I had never seen a pop star dance that well, yes, never
thought a pop star could do a triple pirouette or a kick or
anything like that. That was what suddenly made me
go, oh, people can be that good dancers, Major Britney.
Britney fan. Well, I do have an archival
situation of you recreating some of those routines to our
journeys together of the story of life.
Somebody drunk in their bedroom dancing to a piece of me.
Good times. But I I mean talking, I mean
just talking about Britney and and Janet for there I remember.
So I must have been, I think it was around, I don't know when
they were released, but it was when I was in my final year of
Elmhurst and I had an apartment. I remember having the DVD of
Britney Spears's Las Vegas residency that she did and Janet
Jackson's concert in Hawaii that she did and watching them on
repeat and, and literally for the dancing, it wasn't because I
wanted the music in the background.
It was a real dance inspiration Because we've said this before
on the podcast that you know, and other guests have said on
the podcast, you get inspiration from anywhere.
You get inspiration from walking out an art gallery, from taking
over walk in the woods, listen to classical music or whatever.
I got really inspired as a ballet and contemporary dancer
watching the choreographers work in Britney's stuff, like seeing
how, because I think even at that age, I was noticing that
they choreographically had ideas and did things that ballet
choreographers didn't do. And yeah, I just would watch
them on repeat. And I think there was an
interest in me back then of how can I as an aspiring young
choreographer or artist or whatever, take some of these
crowd pleasing choreographic tricks or crowd pleasing, I
don't know, pyros or costume designs or lighting tricks or
whatever it is. How can I put those in a
contemporary piece or how could they work in ballet?
Or can I take influences from these great choreographers and
put them into the ballet world? Yeah, I was really, really
inspired by Janet and Brittany. Yeah.
I mean, I can see, you know, as a close friend that it's
definitely informed your choices, your your artistic
choices, particularly as you were classically trained and
because it's all about access. So we did have that access.
So we're kind of absorbing. We're, we're viewing and we're
absorbing and we're, we're trying to kind of understand the
concept of, well, this is a highly trained dancer, but she's
dancing to pop music, but she's trained, I'm trained, but I'm
classically trained. But we still have lots of things
in common. And it's, I think it's
interesting that how much it, it does inform you growing up,
whether you're a dancer or a non dancer, because you're
witnessing it play out in real time.
And some people just love it and they don't think about it.
But for someone like yourself, you know, you, you absorbed some
of those qualities and skills that the artist was, I guess,
portraying through the screen, let's say, or at a live concert
or, or even an image, a striking image in a magazine.
And and it informed your artistic route.
Yeah, because I think, I mean, there was part of me that when I
was younger, not misunderstood. Yeah, I think maybe
misunderstood what I was inspired by.
Like, I think I thought, oh, I love this so much and I'm really
into it. I and I'm a trained dancer.
I want to be Britney Spears's backup dancer or I want to be
Janet's backup dancer. And it and I and it wasn't for a
while afterwards that I realized no, no, no, no, I'm inspired by
it. To take influences of that into
what I do. I don't want to be her backing
dancer. I'm inspired by the ideas the
choreographer has done and what she does and what the dancers
are doing, and I want to bring that into the ballet world or I
want to bring that into what I choreograph when I choreograph.
And that, that's what, yeah, in a professional way, that's what
I can see happened with my relationship to Brittany and
Janet and stuff. And I also have to just add in
actually, after what you've just said, at that time, the idea of
becoming a backup dancer was a highly respective, a highly
respective job. Like to be a backing dancer for
Kylie on live TV was hugely respected.
And I think now, because everything's so easily
accessible, we've lost a little bit of, of that prestige and,
and there's less of it now. So, you know, the goal isn't to
be a backup dancer. The goal is actually to be
famous yourself and quickly without any skill set, right?
But true, I mean, I mean it is true.
But again, because we were all at home watching Top of the
Pops, seeing Madonna on stage or whoever with these dancers, she
like, wow, they are performing here.
But then they would also be performing with her on the
German version of Top of the Pops next week on the Australian
version of Top of the Pops. A week afterwards, they'd also
be going on tour with her. They'd also be doing her music
videos. Like if you look back in the
day, I mean, I can speak for Janet and Brittany, you can see
the same dancers in everything, in every performance, in every
video. Like people are hired for like a
period of time back then and would do everything.
So it was such a prestigious job.
It was like kind of joining a company.
Yeah, it really, it really, really, truly was.
Truly was. They must have had a great time,
Fantastic time. I think also back then, you
know, not to go down a depressing rabbit hole, but
there wasn't much representation in the media.
I never saw a gay male dancer on TV.
So which is why there are these people who are gay icons.
You're Judy Garland, you're Kylie Minogue's, you're Cher,
you're Madonnas. They're there because the gay
man didn't have someone to look at in the media that was a gay
man. So they found these people to be
their icons because they represented what they felt or
they also accepted the gay community.
So I think there was that also side of it that I was so
obsessed with Brittany and Janet because there wasn't a gay male
version of that to look up to, if that makes sense.
No, definitely and certainly and I think yeah, things have have
improved massively. But with, you know, we're
talking specifically all of that time.
And yeah, we would. We would.
I think I can. I can speak as a community.
I speak for the entire community.
We would gravitate towards those kind of icons for for those
reasons you've you've you've laid out.
Yeah. For me, it was Madonna first.
Always has been. Adored Madonna, the drama of it
all. But the dancing.
I mean, she was a trained dancer before she started, you know,
hustling in New York as a young. Was she a contemporary?
Dancer I I I kind of want to say Alvin Ailey school on
scholarship, but then you know her ambition and her drive you
know took her to where she is now.
I mean, goodness, but the routines and, and also Janet, of
course, and Paula Abdul who informed Janet and, and, and
let's just be clear, we're speaking specifically to pop
icons when because of course we have, you know, the Josephine
Baker's, we've got the Gene Kelly's, the Ginger Rogers that,
you know, we're not talking his, you know, those kind of
references. We're specifically discussing on
this episode the pop culture and the access that we had growing
up and how it how it's informed us.
But, and it sadly is a nostalgia that we, we step back into now,
you know, all that we kind of go onto YouTube and look at all
videos. And actually I do, I do want our
listeners to when they have a moment to go onto YouTube and
check out some 90s, late 90s, early 2000 music videos.
Because you will see how complicated some of those
routines are. And yes, maybe some of them,
some of the stars, some of the singers are lip syncing, but
that's because they had to because those you cannot sing
and do those routines. It's one of the things that
people always use to bitch about Britney lip syncing.
Like you try and dance like that and sing.
It's impossible. It's impossible.
And also be the face. That's the difference.
Exactly. Exactly.
In musicals, in the ensemble, you sing and dance.
It's like, yes, but you don't stand there with a camera in
your face and have to look $1,000,000 all the time.
It's very different. Is very, very different.
And I know maybe there are some people listening thinking, well,
musical theatre, they're singing their hearts out and dancing,
but they weren't. But it's created in a different
way. A musical theatre performance is
is you know, there are moments for breath and there are moments
for repose and you're not carrying the entire show.
You may be the lead, but you're not singing every track.
Well, exactly. And also in a Britney Spears
song. Let's just say those songs are
made to be recorded. They're not made to be sung
live. So a musical theatre piece is
made to be sung every single day and made to be danced and sung
to. Whereas let's just say Britney
Spears track, There's no breath in it because she records the
verse that goes straight into the court or like where she, you
know what I mean? It's made for a recording.
So then when you're doing it live, it's a very different
kettle of fish. But I want to jump back to
Madonna for you because I know very interested in fashion and
everything apart from the dancing.
Did Madonna or was there also a fashion side of it that drew you
to Madonna? Because she was drama and
everything, but she also was very fashion.
Certainly, I mean, I, I mean, I adored Madonna growing up.
I everything about her. But yeah, the fashion played a
large part because she was very provocative.
And at the time, of course, I, I didn't have the understanding to
of why I was so attracted to her because it certainly wasn't a
sexual thing as a, you know, even before I realized I was
gay, you know, because you don't, you don't know you're gay
your entire life. You know, you have to grow into
that idea and, and, you know, emotional understanding and
emotional maturity. But I certainly adored her and
the fashion and the music videos and the tours and, and just
everything about her, you know, such a strong performative
figure. I absolutely loved her.
And I, I always have this memory of being like at ballet school
and not really knowing how to dance outside of classical
ballet. And I remember when she released
a track with the guy who's the American guy that was in Wayne's
World. We're going back, back, back
now. Oh God, He's the voice of Shrek.
He's the voice of Shrek. Oh, Mike Myers.
Yes, and the and keep going help help an old ballerina out the
the film where Beyoncé was also in and he's got he's the English
guy with the glasses and. The Austin Powers.
Yeah, Austin Powers. There we go.
Madonna. Madonna recorded a track for
Austin Powers and in that video. Oh yeah, I haven't.
We met, you know, that track she's dancing kind of quirky.
And at that time, in real time, I was like, I'm going to adopt.
I like the way she's moving in that video.
I'm going to try that when I when I'm next at the Shadow
Lounge. I know what you mean.
And it worked for me. I kind of found my groove.
I kind of found a way to move through watching her that I
wasn't getting at ballet school. And and that's always stuck with
me because I really had, you know, a memory of I can't dance
because I'm, I'm so classically trained.
Everything is so disciplined and refined and contained.
I don't know how to shake it off and be free because I didn't go
to like a multi dance school you.
Went to a ballet. Yeah, it was ballet, ballet,
ballet, ballet. Throw in some Russian character
work, some fencing, you know what I mean?
It wasn't really giving you throw.
In some fencing. But I hated, so I was really
grateful to having that kind of access.
So I. But if you watch her, I mean, I
remember, yes, OK, fine, you've got the voguing in the 80s or
whatever. But if you do look at that video
that you're talking about example.
But also if you look at her video when she's dancing with
Madonna, if you dance with Madonna, when she's dancing with
Britney, if you see when she's dancing in the hung up video,
the ABBA influence song. Love that song, yeah.
It's not your Michael Jackson, Britney, you know, cool locking
commercial dancing. There is a little bit odd,
quirky contemporaness about it all the time.
She is slightly odd when she dances.
Isn't that also the one she does with Justin?
He's doing his Justin dancing and then suddenly she's like,
you know, doing Graham Curves or something on the floor.
On top of a car. Exactly.
She's always doing the quirky choice over in the corner.
Yeah, it is interesting. Her choreographic choices are
very interesting and they've proven to be very provocative
and therefore in the limelight and, and she has, she has grown
and evolved, which is why she's lasted so long, you know, but I
mean, talk about informative, you know, cultural references.
She's, she's up there at the at the very, very top.
Completely. I remember when I was, I think
again, it must be 19 or 20 or something like that, and I
remember. Do you remember?
Maya, yes. So Maya came out with the song
Case of the X. Love it, still play it to this
day. That dance routine, I remember
watching her and she again was a dancer, dancer, dancer.
She was there in the middle of the desert dancing with a stick,
doing proper choreography. And I was like.
Oh. Again, someone who's really
talented and then I went down a rabbit hole.
She used to be a Broadway dancer doing tap.
She's like a Tapper and then ended up doing Chicago with
yourself. But sadly she doesn't really
dance in Chicago. She didn't really.
She was like the last Cellblock Tango girl.
She didn't really do much. Random side note, those first 2
girls in Cellblock Tango. Oh my God, they are amazing.
Those ladies can dance. And that film is spectacular,
actually. It's very hard to beat.
But that they are Immaculate, their delivery, their training.
And I want to say that those two women are actually from the
Broadway show. That I don't know.
But she kicks her leg, you know, she's pulling away from the guy
with the red silk. Like they had this red silk to
show how they killed them. So like, I stabbed him in the
stomach, Shenae's away or whatever is and then is holding
like a big red silk. And I remember her doing like a
massive kick and putting over the silk.
Yeah, it's really an amazing. Film the dancing in Chicago in
that Chicago was fantastic. Yes, that was Maya and she did
also a song. Maya because I started following
her because she was a good dancer.
So I then started following her and listening.
She didn't become that celebrated outside of the US.
She was still huge in the US, but she wasn't that big in the
UK. When I remember she released a
song, I think it was called My Love is Like Whoa.
And in it she did. Instead of having a dance break
how most songs did, she had a dance break that was tap.
And she did like this whole tap routine and everything.
It was fucking great. Yeah.
And also, you know, if you are inspired to get get on YouTube,
I'm pretty certain she does. There was like a celebration
concert for maybe I want to say Janet Jackson.
And there's a scene where she's dancing in front of a mirror but
on stage for Janet Jack. And she's brilliant.
So it's the empty listeners out there.
So it's MTV icon and it was Janet Jackson.
I think she was the first recipient of this.
And they did a choreography and I think the first one is Usher I
want. To say is.
Dancing with They're basically recreating famous videos from
hers, and I cannot remember what video that one is, sorry, but
she dancing in a suit with a big hat and dancing with newspapers.
Yes, yes, yes. Then it goes into Maya dancing
in front of the mirror, which is what Janet did.
And it's, yeah, like you said, it's great.
So many great moments, yeah. But yeah, I mean, Paula Abdul
was, well, let's name and shame some of these choreographers
because they never get their, they never get their roses, in
my opinion. Like we all, I mean, I know
we're from the ballet world, but you know, some ballet
choreographers are household names.
I don't think some of these choreographers are household
names, but Paula Abdul was a choreographer.
Yes, she was. She was Janet's choreographer
and then released music and became a singer herself.
Jennifer Lopez was one of Janet's backup dancers.
Yes, she certainly was. I think is it in?
That's the way, love. That's the way love goes.
Yeah, she's in. She's in the video and that Tina
Landon, who did all of like she bangs and I think she did
Together Again by Janet and she did Livin La Vida Loca.
She did Ginny in a bottle. That's all Tina Landon.
And you can also find on YouTube Tina Landon doing like a mega
mix of her choreographies. So it's it's like some kind of,
I don't know if it's a celebration concert or if it's
an MTV thing. But yeah, Tina Landon, the
choreographer is there taking the place of the Christina
Aguilera, the Ricky Martin, the whoever is in the centre of the
routine and doing all of her own choreographies.
And then obviously then you've got Brian Friedman, slave for
you. I mean iconic.
Oh my God, that video sent me over the edge.
I wanted to be every single character in that video.
I wanted to be wearing a pink shredded crop top with with body
glitter and a shaggy fringe with long blonde hair.
Like I was living for that music video.
It was so like, I mean, remember the first time you saw it, it
was like, this is iconic, right? Now and then the famous MTV
performance straight after that where basically it was they
managed to, you know, create that entire world that you
create in a music video, which is easy because it's not easy,
but you know what I mean? A music video is easier to
create a land than in a live performance where you're on
stage for three minutes. You just have to do something.
And they managed to then create this Slave for You universe at
the MTV Awards, with Britney dancing famously with the Python
And all. This kind of stuff like.
So good. Brian Friedman, Tina Landon,
Wade Robson, Like, oh, these people need to be household
names in my opinion as much As for.
Sure. McMillan and Wayne McGregor
Because more people have seen their choreographies than have
seen Kenneth Mcmillan's choreographies, I would like to.
Say definitely. The amount of people who have
seen slave for you and you know they need their roses.
So here you are, I'm giving you roses, we'll say, jumping onto
what you said about Madonna back then.
Again, because of many reasons, because of TV dying out, because
of the music industry not earning as much money as it used
to when used to sell physical LP's and physical CDs and stuff.
The quality and the people involved in these photo shoots
and these music videos, I mean, think of the Madonna Ray of
Light album. It was shot by Mario Testino.
Amazing album. Music video shot by David
Lechapelle. Yeah, Like it.
It wasn't just, you know, a little music video.
It was, like you said, high conceptual, high quality.
It it was a a movie. It was an experience.
Yeah, a production. It was a full production, you
know, with the best creatives in the biz, you know, creating
amazing, almost fantastical art really, rather than, you know,
and I know style and and trends change, you know, and we're,
we're quite good now at wanting to keep things kind of
minimalist clean. But you know, certainly during
those times, again, referring to the late 90s, you know, early
mid 2000's, the bigger the budget, the more extreme and
sometimes shocking, you know, to provoke more provoking, the
better. And we really, we really wanted
to step into that level of escapism.
And I think that's what it is, is that escapism that I feel I I
can't find nowadays unless I go to the cinema or go to the
theater. And I think I would say that,
you know, these music videos did mean a lot to me growing up
because, you know, you can't afford to go to this.
I mean, that's just ridiculous. You cannot go to the theater
every single week. You know, no one has that budget
to be able to go to the theatre every single week to see, you
know, these fantastical productions and have that
escapism and have that inspiration.
You do need to be able to find inspiration and have that
escapism from other places. And I feel that we were really
lucky to have as dancers they speaking very specifically about
dance because yes, you can have escapism by watching a Netflix
documentary or a Netflix TV series.
They're also fantastical TV series that are being made right
now. But it's the dance, It is the
performance that I'm missing. I'm missing seeing a
choreographed dance routine that shot fantastically in the middle
of a desert somewhere with professional dancers.
And there is a new one coming out every single week.
And there's a live dance performance happening every
single Friday with trained dancers and proper choreography.
And I miss that level of that. I think I miss that standard of
seeing that level of professionalism, both in the
artistic, you know, in photography and video,
videography and concept, but also the standard of dancers,
because they're still out there. You know, the schools are still
churning them out. But do I only get to see them if
I go and watch Taylor Swift's tour?
That's not accessible for everybody.
It was more we had access and I think it's, I'm really thankful
for the access that we had and. I think, you know, just going on
from that, I suppose there is an evolution because that really
sounds familiar in terms of if you think back to those old MGM
classics where the production, the scale of production on those
beautiful black and white films, you know, where they pulled so
much money. If they could speak today, they
would probably argue the same argument that we're we're
discussing in that we know where has that level of production
gone? But you know, we still have
those, those references, but we're keeping it quite niche
with, you know, pop culture and, and it is intertwined with
changing trends because let's face it, we've already discussed
if we're not really watching TV, then the only the only outlet we
have is on our phones. And if the trend is TikTok and
quick fixes, quick routines, then there's no chance other
than kind of living in the past, so to speak.
But I think it's really, really important to still acknowledge,
you know, the historical, it sounds like we're so old, but
the historical value of the of those times. 100% because it is
that kind of thing. You know, I saw it, I saw an
interview the other day that said that Hollywood is dumbing
down storylines and dumbing down performances because you have to
create something on TV that you can watch and follow the
storyline whilst also scrolling on your phone.
So if sometimes they're saying that Hollywood executives, if
the story comes in, that's too complicated, they shut it down
and like you have to make the story simpler because I need to
be able to follow it while I'm not paying attention.
And it's kind of that whole dumbing down thing that I feel
is a little bit what I'm talking about with with the TikTok,
because it's not the TikTok. I sound like an element.
That TikTok. That TikTok, the TikTok because,
yeah, unless, you know, I'm going on Beyoncé's specific
TikTok account and saying what she's released, then where where
is the the dance? Where's the professional dance?
Yeah. And I think if we're, if we're
genuinely interested in it, we have to be responsible also as
an individual and, and investigate and research.
And I mean, I think that applies to most things in life.
But if you're, if you're keen on learning, you know, the
progression of dance and you can go back as far back as you wish.
We are, again, I repeat, we're specifically discussing a very
niche period 90s, but it is really important to get online
because that is our access point, isn't it?
Now, let's face it and look at these images, look at these
videos and you know, and explore because they can be just as
rewarding re watching as they were the very first time.
You know, and, and again, most people may not have seen these
music videos from from that time period and, and, and it's very
easy to get stuck into a loop, but it's so informative and it's
just, and it's also a joy just to watch.
It is and just I want to. The reason why I started this
conversation thinking about it was that yes, US dancers will go
and investigate and we will go and look at stuff, but it's more
the audiences, people who maybe didn't want to watch dance or
aren't interested in dance or didn't think they were
interested in dance back then. We're getting dance thrown in
the face and it maybe would spark a new interest.
It would spark interest in in dance.
And that's why I'm, I don't know, there's part of me that
might be a little bit worried of how we going to loop audiences
in to come and see the newest ballet, the newest musical, the
newest contemporary show, the newest whatever.
If you're not having music videos or music performances on
top of the pots being thrown down your neck that make you go,
Oh, I like that. Oh, I didn't realise I liked
dancing. Oh, I do like dancing because
otherwise where are you seeing it?
Where is it being thrown at you? And I think that's there's a
slight worry in my head there about are we going to, Yeah.
Where's the new audience coming from?
So jump on the Internet like Denise says.
And Google, what's that thing you did with the Castanet?
Oh. My God I forgot we brought that
up already. Don't Google it.
So everybody go and get some inspiration.
Yes, go and watch the DVD of Janet Jackson in Hawaii or
Britney in Vegas. But seriously, thank you
everybody for listening to another episode of Drinks at the
Bar. Please remember to tell your
friends, your colleagues, your fellow dance enthusiasts all
about our podcast. Yeah, we'd really appreciate it.
Thanks again. And we hope that you tune in
next week for another episode of Drinks at the Bar.
Take care, it's been a pleasure. As always darling, lots of love,
big kiss, bye.