Hello everyone and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast
dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style.
I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and
author Chris Ratcliffe. I've worked with thousands of
people across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious
attachment through my books, workshops, digital downloads,
and coaching program. I'm honored to carry on that
mission here in the podcast, sharing tools and techniques,
principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to
growing more secure. Welcome back to the show,
everyone. I know I took a little bit of a
hiatus, a little mental health break.
Sometimes producing a lot of content can where on a content
creator. So thank you for your patience
and I'm super excited to welcome my next guest who all intro in a
moment. But before I do, I just wanted
to say that I made a decision a while ago that I wanted to use
my platform to highlight things that were important to me
personally. And as an out and proud gay man
for 24 years now, I thought it would be interesting to welcome
someone who specializes in queer relationships on to the show in
honor of Pride Month. Because even though we're
recording this in May, it is now June when you're hearing this.
So happy Pride Month, everyone. I'm now going to intro you to
Tom Brewett, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist
and trains therapists in the Bader Pearson Developmental
model of couples therapy. He has a specialization in
working with LGBTQIA 2S plus relationships and practices in
California and Colorado. His new book, which I personally
enjoyed, by the way, the go to relationship guide for gay men
is available now. Welcome to the show, Tom.
Thanks for coming on Needy No More.
Yeah, of course. I'm really glad to be here,
Chris. Thanks.
Thanks for asking me and thanks for reading the book.
Of course, you're more than welcome.
I'm an author myself and I do have a personal pet peeve for
podcast hosts that don't at least explore the work of people
that they have on their show. I've been on the receiving end
of that and it's very awkward and strange and way over
general. And, you know, I'm a gay man
myself and I'm single and I'm excited to dive into this convo
as well. Before we dive in, I just kind
of want to set the stage here. A lot of my audience is straight
or straight leaning. And you know, I want to talk
about some of the complexities and nuances of gay and queer
relationships that folks might not understand if they're not
familiar with some of those complexities and nuances that
you and I, as gay men are just by our lived experience.
So let's start off with this question.
How do queer relationships differ from heteronormative
ones? Talk to me about some of those
nuances and complexities. Yeah, I think this is a great
question. And while there are some
similarities in terms of what makes a healthy relationship, of
course, across genders and orientations and relationship
structures and all that kind of stuff, there are some unique
aspects of queer relationships that do make them different.
And I think first of all, because my book is mostly geared
towards gay men, I kind of chose that Channel even though I work
with the broader queer community.
I really wanted to speak to gay men in this book.
And so in gay male relationships, we have to think
about the fact that we were socialized male in a culture
that, you know, I think we still have some work to do around
gender. And so just kind of starting
with that aspect of it, If you're socialized male and
you're in relationship with somebody else who's been
socialized male, there's a lot of complexities that exist in
that kind of dynamic. Paternalism.
Patriarchy. Toxic masculinity?
Yes, of course, all of that comes up when you start talking
about two men trying to build a life together in a society that
makes you think that you shouldn't or that it's wrong.
Many. Of us didn't have, you know, we
didn't have relationship role models.
Speaking myself when I was coming of age, there weren't,
you know, examples of what healthy queer and gay
relationships could look like in the media.
And not that we should be looking to the media for our,
you know, our education on what relationship structures are.
But if you're not finding it at home because many of us didn't
grow up in households with gay parents or queer parents, and
you're not finding it in your community because, you know,
again, if if you're not seeing it in your family circle or in
your extended family, it's, it's where are the windows and
mirrors? And so a lot of us look to
media. And when there are no media
representations of healthy queer relationships, that's another
area that I think really makes it challenging for a lot of gay
and queer folks. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, growing up, and I remember you talking about this
in the book, your own experience with this, and I really
connected with it as well. There was Queer as Folk, which I
know you talk about, you know, a little bit in terms of some of
the the leanings attachment wise of some of the characters in the
show and how it really does demonstrate in a queer way what
I think we saw a lot of in Carrie and Biggs relationship on
sex and the city. This toxic back and forth push
pull. Will they or won't they?
Anxious avoidant pairing that so many people listening and
watching are of course familiar with.
But really beyond that and like willing grace, there wasn't a
whole lot. I mean, Ellen had come out.
I don't even think Lance Bass had come out come out yet when I
was in high school. So yeah, I totally hear what
you're saying there. So we've got that influence,
that complexity, but what else? What's different that people
watching and listening might not know about?
Maybe in terms of sexual roles or some of that nuance and
complexity, as well as just like relationship structure, right?
Which I know that you talk about in your book, having personal
experience with consensual, consensual non monogamy.
So walk us through a little bit more of those complexities too.
Sure. So, so for many of us, if we're
if we are socialized straight or heterosexual in this in this
culture, there's something like a relationship escalator that
many of us are assumed to be on. So you date for a little while,
you get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you move
to the suburb, all that kind of stuff.
When once you get on it, you sort of know the trajectory of
how your relationship is going to look.
For a lot of gay and queer folks, that's not the case.
Gay marriage is now the law of the land.
But there still are, you know, complexities to actually
creating a community and creating a family and, you know,
even family planning if you wanted to have children.
Like, it's not just as cut and dry as it is.
You can't accidentally get pregnant for for many queer
folks. Right.
And so that's a part of it, which I think is actually an
opportunity because then it allows us through the process of
really authentic communication to create relationship
structures that work for us. And so, I mean, I think that's
one piece of it that we could look at it as a challenge, but
we can also look at it as an opportunity.
Yeah, it is kind of a perk or a benefit that flexibility in
terms of not approaching things from such a specifically
structured way that it has to be this way and that it has to
progress in this order, and that these are the milestones that
have to be hit. I love that escalator analogy.
That's really powerful and poignant, I think.
And then if we pivot to the sexual piece, you know, for a
lot of folks, I mean, if we just think about sex Ed for a moment,
and I know sex Ed is under attack in much of our country
and much of the world. If if you are fortunate enough
to get pleasure focused sex Ed, it's probably going to be hetero
focused. And so you're probably not going
to get pleasure focused sex Ed that is queer inclusive in most
schools even still today. It certainly wasn't around when
I was when I was coming of age. And so we're learning about sex
through porn or through experimentation, which, you
know, porn is not bad in and of itself, but it's not sex Ed.
And so you know that that can create a lot of complexity
around really getting in touch with your own pleasure and what
your desires are and what turns you on.
And then when you end up in a relationship with somebody, it
can be tricky to actually articulate, hey, this is
something I'm really desiring sexually.
Great point. And that brings up another topic
I wanted to explore with you that's covered in depth in your
book, which is this idea of a second adolescence for queer
people. Can you talk about that a little
bit? I I know what you mean when you
say that, but when you talk about that, what does that mean
exactly? Many people.
So when you're going through adolescence, typically it's
12/13/14, that error of your life.
You're experimenting with a lot of different things,
relationships being one of them. And if you are straight, you're
encouraged to kind of date and, and have experimental
relationships during that period of time.
If you're queer or gay and you're not out and it's not safe
to be out, you don't get that same opportunity.
And so that often happens a lot later in life.
And adolescence is a really important, beautiful time in
life because you're learning a lot more about yourself, about
what you desire, what you long for, what you don't like.
And so many of us in in the queer community, we have that
experience after we come out. And so that may be later in life
for for some folks. I mean, there's some people who
don't come out until they're 5060 and they may have, you
know, an experimentation period that happens a lot later in
life. And that, of course, impacts
relationships. Of course.
Yeah. There's so much trial and error
that happens when you're young, right?
You're trying on different hats. You're seeing how different
things feel. You're learning to, I mean,
theoretically set boundaries, say no, learn about consent, all
things that are important for building relationships.
And yet, even when someone does come out in their teens, and I
can speak to this because I came out at the age of 14 in 2001 as
a freshman in high school. I pulled aside a handful of my
best girlfriends at the time who I'd only known for a few months
because I went to a magnet school.
And that in and of itself speaks to being gay, that I had made so
many girlfriends in such a short period of time.
But that said, you know, even though I was out and the whole
school knew I wasn't necessarily comfortable, even when prompted
by other people to talk about my sexuality, I didn't feel safe
doing so. Not necessarily physically, but
emotionally. I didn't want to put myself in a
situation that would have been risky or scary.
You know, a lot of what was covered in the media in my
childhood in the 90s was about people being beat up for being
gay. Matthew Shepard comes to mind.
And even though I was out and people knew about it, I didn't
feel comfortable exploring that fully.
So what Tom is talking about is so important because many people
don't realize that even when you come out, which is a process not
just for the self, but for those around someone who is queer.
And that's important. I once had someone ask me, why
did you need to come out? Well, because it's important to
be your authentic self and for people to know that.
And of course, I, like many others, was a bit late to that
conversation. Other people knew before I did.
And then I caught wind of the fact that, yeah, I guess, yes, I
am. But that said, I think it's
important to talk about this because in my 20s too, and in
college and even maybe into my early 30s, and even today in
some ways, I'm still experimenting and exploring what
it means to be me, as many people do.
But a lot of that just gets delayed because you don't feel
safe or comfortable enough expressing yourself
authentically. Did I capture that well, Tom?
You. Yes, you.
You captured it beautifully. Thank you.
I appreciate that. I think it's so important for,
you know, my mostly straight audience here to hear about this
because there's so much that even when I'm talking to family
and friends who are very accepting and very queer
friendly and our allies, they don't even necessarily fully
understand the experience of what it's like to grow up gay
and to have that kind of second queer adolescent.
I want to ask you this. There's, I think a perception in
our community that there's a lot of barriers or challenges that
gay men specifically struggle with when it comes to dating and
relationships. I can speak to some of these
personally, but I want you to lead this.
What do you think some of the biggest barriers or challenges
that gay men specifically deal with when it comes to dating as
a single person and then being in a relationship with another
man? What do they deal with?
What are the complicating factors here?
What do you usually see in your practice?
I mean, there's so many. I'm going to start with the idea
that if you if you learn to hide a part of yourself at a very
young age, it's very difficult to actually then connect with
somebody in an authentic, intimate way.
And so a lot of gay men have learned to sort of put bits and
pieces of themselves to the side and then they get into a
relationship and they still hold some of those pieces back.
An example from my own life, you know, I, I could have sex with
lots of different people, lots of sex.
I couldn't talk about it very well.
And, you know, that's just one small aspect of my life, but I
couldn't talk about it because I, I, you know, I didn't really
understand it myself. I wasn't connected to my own
wants, feelings, wishes, desires around sex and sexuality.
So then when I actually tried to connect with a partner or
partners, it's very difficult. And so add that to the mix
around being socialized male and the complexities that come with
that. And then we add in the fact that
there aren't that many of us. If we look at the the
population, the LGBTQ folks in general, population is growing,
especially with younger folks. But a big percentage of those
people are bisexual. And bisexual folks can choose to
be in relationships with men, of course.
But if we look at people who solely identify as gay men, it's
still a pretty small portion of the population.
So even in your high school, there probably weren't other,
you know, out gay men That, and if there were, they may not be
people that you were attracted to.
Just because they're gay doesn't mean you're into them.
Yes, good point there. Definitely.
OK, that's definitely a big one. I think that people should
understand what else what comes to mind.
There is, I think a loneliness piece that a lot of people will
bring forward. Like when I see people, when
people come in to see me there, I do hear sometimes complaints
of like it just feels very lonely in the gay community.
And when you have a community of folks who are marginalized,
there are certain self protections that come in place.
And so we know that from the studies, a lot of gay men fall
into the avoidant or disorganized end of the
spectrum. So when you have people who have
self protected in that way, it's very difficult again, to be
vulnerable and do the things that you need to do in, in order
to be in a relationship. And just, you know, it's, it
just creates more and more barriers for connection.
There's a lot of insecure attachment out there in our
community, Definitely. I've worked with several gay men
who have an anxious or disorganized leaning anxious
attachment style and wanted to do some of that somatic work,
trauma work, a personal development work of
understanding their needs, their values, their love languages,
etcetera, so that they could open themselves up better to
even being emotionally available.
So that's definitely a big one that I know will resonate with a
lot of people watching and listening just because as
anxious attachers or folks leaning anxious, we've dealt
with a lot of those same dynamics in our relational
history as well. Does anything else come to mind?
By the way, I know that that isolation and loneliness is a
big one because I have felt it myself in my own journey and I
do want to come back to that a little bit later.
But keep going, OK? We also know that, you know,
just recently, every year, the Travel Project, which is an
LGBTQ youth organization, puts out statistics on the mental
health of queer folks around the country, around the world.
It's not shocking with the way the political landscape is, but
it's still, if we look at the statistics, the mental health
statistics for LGBTQ folks, it is still staggeringly horrific
how much depression, anxiety, PTSD, you know, substance use or
substance misuse is at play. We know this is, this is harder
for our BIPOC members of our community and for trans folks
and non, non binary folks, those numbers are even higher.
But when we look at gay male statistics, even though marriage
equality has happened and there has been a lot of progress
politically in some really important ways, there still are
statistics that I don't think we fully understand yet.
And I think minority stress plays a, a role in it.
I think societal pressures, there's systemic, systemic
issues at play here that contribute to that.
And then there's still are people, I mean, I'm still
working with young gay and queer folks who come out and are, are
disowned from their family. I mean, it is still happening in
2025. And, you know, so I, I think
when you Add all of those complexities together, it's not
a surprise that some of us struggle to actually connect and
be intimate with other men or other people.
That's a great point. You know, there's so many cues
coming externally from around you when you're a queer person.
And speaking as a gay man, I know this, that you're not good
enough, that you shouldn't be who you are.
There's so much shame and guilt that's wrapped up in that
experience. And there's a quote that
circulates online all the time, and I'm probably going to
butcher it, but it talks about how when you grow up as a gay
person or a gay man, in this instance, if you grow up
presenting a version to other people that you think they're
going to accept and tolerate. And that creates the safety that
you don't feel you'll have if you do present authentically or
if you are vulnerable and show yourself fully to those around
you. So you learn to be a bit of a
chameleon. And that is a really painful
experience to go through. Imagine, for instance, if you're
watching this or listening to this, that you have a boss that
doesn't support your relationship at all, who doesn't
like your partner, who doesn't like the fact that maybe you're
married or you been together or you live together.
And think about how stressful that would be to hold back that
part of yourself, even just at work, which obviously is a big
part of our lives. And then take that and apply it
to your entire life with everyone in your life as a gay
person. That's what it feels like.
It's tough. It's really well said and you
know, there's a quote, there's a book called Boys and sex that
and there's a quote from that book that says gay men are the
spies and the hyper masculinity. And it's true because as young
boys, we learn how to pass, we learn how to code switch and we
learn how because it's for our own safety.
A lot of the times, you know, before we even know what the
word gay means, before we're even sexualized, a lot of us
have experiences of just not being right in some way.
If you are a parent out there and you suspect that your child
is gay or queer something, talk about it with them.
So many people, especially from my generation, were like, oh,
we'll wait for them to bring it up with us.
It's like, why would you allow your child to suffer for years
and years and years when as the parent in the room, you could
have introduced the conversation a lot earlier?
You're not going to turn them gay or queer by doing that.
You're just going to make it that much safer for them to
actually express things to you when it's time.
And what an emotionally mature approach.
And as the adult in the room, yes, you should probably be the
one who brings up that conversation and not let that
burden fall to the person in the dynamic who is looking to their
parent for guidance and support and advice.
Very well set there. I want to back up for a moment
and define a couple of things or give a couple of examples for
folks. So when Tom talks about by POC,
he's talking about Black, Indigenous, and people of color
there. So when we mentioned that
earlier, if you're not familiar with that phrase, that's what
that means. Also code switching, if you
don't know what that means, that would be like, for instance,
when I'm in a group that I feel super safe with, like mostly
girls, probably I would say like, hey girl, how you doing,
Diva? You know, like my voice would be
higher, I would be using different words, I would be
speaking differently. And then if I get in an Uber or
a taxi, I would say, hey man, how's your day?
My tone is different, I'm using different words, I'm holding
back. I'm switching into a more
masculine version of myself in order to create an environment
that I perceive as safe. That's what Tom means when he
says code switching, if you're not familiar with that.
Beautiful descriptions, thank you for adding that in.
Of course. Yeah.
OK. I want to share a quote in your
book that really resonated with me and I want to use it as kind
of a bouncing off point here for the conversation you say on page
38 of the Go to Relationship guide for Gay men in session,
sometimes a client will describe more blatant forms of
internalized homophobia when they claim to hate the whole gay
community or say that gay men are all sluts or conceited or
drug addicts or whatever. When we make blanket
generalizations about an entire community, it is usually rooted
in hatred and fear. That is what I often see.
Internalized homophobia is usually an indicator of the deep
wound of self hatred. It's hard to be in a
relationship with yourself or anyone else for that matter,
when you have such a negative inner critic in the mix.
That really resonated with me, Tom.
And I also think in our community, there is some truth
to the fact that there's a lot of hyper sexualization, that
there is a lot of addictive coping happening.
You know, many people relying on drugs and alcohol or other
substances, for instance, to numb their experience.
Maybe they don't have the mental health support that they need.
Maybe they haven't addressed some of the shame and guilt that
I brought up earlier. But talk to me about that quote
a little bit more about that internalized homophobia, and
then maybe we can explore some of the perceptions that people
within our community and maybe people outside of our community
might have as well. Yeah, I mean, internalized
homophobia is so linked with shame and shame I think is one
of the most sticky emotions that there are out there because it's
it's very difficult. Like guilt is I did something
wrong, shame as I am wrong. And so when you think that that
you are wrong at your core, there's something wrong with you
or off about you or not right about you, then you do look at
the world through that perspective.
And it's very difficult not to feel isolated and alone in the
gay community at times. And there are, you know, I hear
this all of the time that the gay community can, especially in
certain big cities, can feel clicky or can feel isolating.
A lot of people long for a tribe of, of gay friends and then they
feel, you know, really disconnected because they feel
like they've been and rejected by certain aspects of the
community. And, you know, I think kind of
tying that into the sexualization piece, that's what
we see a lot of social media and I mean, sex cells, right?
And so social media is a form of marketing.
And you know, when we look at what, and it's the same, I think
in heterosexual marketing, if we look at the images that, that
women are forced to, to look at, and even straight men, they're
not, they're not bodies that are actually sustainable for a lot
of people. So then it's another layer of
shame of feeling like, oh, gosh, I, I don't look like that.
I'm not, I am not that way. And so it, it, it can get
directed. All of those internal feelings
can get directed externally, which then makes it more
challenging to actually connect with people.
Good point. Yeah, it can be a self
fulfilling prophecy for sure there, because nobody wants to
keep someone around who is critical all the time, who is
voicing their active hatred of an entire community of people
that's not someone that you really generally want to have
around. And then they'll of course
ostracize. And that abandonment feels
really damaging and damning in a lot of ways.
So I hear that completely. And yet there might be some
truth to that perspective too, because at least in my
experience, there's, I feel like a lot of pressure to have sex
and to talk about sex. And as men, obviously, this does
come up maybe a bit more than other cohorts.
And this year in particular, I've been taking a break from
drinking. I haven't had a drink since New
Year's Eve. I'm more than four months in
now. I feel great.
But you know, sometimes when you go out or when I go out and I
see other people drinking and to the point of excessive
intoxication or binge drinking and things like that, there's
also talk of doing other substances and then that of
course leads potentially somewhere else from a sex
standpoint. What do you hear in your
practice from folks who might be in a similar position to me?
What do they say? Gay bars were the original safe
spaces for queer folks. You know, if we look back to the
Stonewall riots in 1969, even before that, bars were rated.
It wasn't until drag Queens and trans folks and LGBTQ folks
really stood up and said no longer are we going to take this
kind of abuse that things started to shift.
But I think there is still a legacy in our community where
bars are the safe spaces. I don't know about you, but for
me, I don't, I don't love being like one of three gay people in
a room. I really do prefer to be in a
community of people who I can let my guard down a little bit
more. I can be more of my authentic
self. Of course, I have straight
friends, and, you know, that's important too.
But, you know, there's something about being in a fully queer or
gay space that does feel incredibly safe.
I do think, you know, kind of coming to your connection of
hypersexuality or substance overuse.
We know that if you're not feeling great about yourself,
substances can be a way to escape.
It could be a way to regulate. It could be a way to take care
of yourself. If you're super anxious, you may
drink more before you go to social settings because that
makes you, you know, let your hair down a little bit more.
But if it can become a slippery slope for some people, the sex
piece, I think, you know, the, the hyper sexuality is the most
visible, But whatever your sexuality is, it's OK.
Some people have higher sex drives, some people have lower
sex drives. They're they're all totally
natural. And so I think people can again,
get into comparing themselves and social media, I think is has
not done done us a lot of service in this department.
But you know, really being able to tease out that whatever your
sex drive is, if it's authentically true to what you
desire, great. Go with it.
If you feel like it's it's not aligned with your values or who
you are or you're not, you know, seeking pleasure in a way that
actually feels good to you, that's the time to start doing
some self evaluation. Yeah, also great.
Yeah. It's OK if you want to have sex.
It's OK if you don't want to have sex.
It's OK if you change your mind. All different approaches are
welcome, certainly, and that's the sex positive approach.
I do think in our community there's a perception that people
are having sex all the time or are overly promiscuous.
And that perception I do think speaks to what might be
happening internally for that person.
And also comparing yourself to other people, regardless of your
sexuality, is the thief of joy for a reason that people say
that because it is true. You cannot control what other
people do or don't do. This is the let them theory.
This is detachment rebranded. But at the end of the day, we
have to learn to let that go and do what feels in alignment with
ourselves. In the book you talk a lot about
differentiation, which is kind of the process of both self
discovery and discovering preferences with a partner.
Can you talk about that concept a little bit and what that looks
and sounds like? I think this concept is like
crucial for any relationship, gay, straight, queer, whatever,
open, monogamous. This, this concept I think is
revolutionary for a lot of people.
So often, you know, when you're in a relationship with somebody
else, you can lose hold of who you are.
The process of differentiation is about being able to hold on
to connection and autonomy at the same time, and to tolerate
the tension that can arise when somebody has different thoughts,
feelings, wishes, desires than you do.
And that is going to happen because in relationships,
differences occur and it's through differences that we
actually learn more about ourselves and through our
partners. And so allowing the space for
that tension to exist and not moving into avoiding it or
conflict avoidance or like pushing your way through to
fight through it and get into those angry arguments where no
one feels hurt or understood. But really, staying in the
understanding and curiosity place is what I work with a lot
of people around. I love the concept of
differentiation. It brings me back to my psych
classes in college. Now, obviously the goal is
interdependence. You've got to hold a sense of
self and you need to be able to relate to others in a healthy,
inclusive, compassionate way. We need other people.
We are a social species. So it's not one or the other,
it's always both. It's how you hold both.
Differentiation is a reflection of another concept that I
espouse in my work called emotional diversification.
And this is borrowed from the world of finance kind of pie
chart approach, a bit more numerical, quantitative where we
look at, OK, how much time are you spending in this area of
your life versus this area. And then knowing that time and
energy are finite resources, taking some of those investments
and then reallocating them so that the mix is healthier.
And by the way, this is always incremental, so it's not like
you're taking all of the time and energy that you spend with a
partner and then pouring it into everywhere else.
You don't want to neglect your relationship, but you do need to
take some of that time and energy and then reinvest it
elsewhere. And that process is done through
differentiation. Exactly, yeah.
And it is, I think like attachment, it is a muscle that
you can stretch and evolve and develop over the lifetime.
And so I think attachment and I know your work doesn't, doesn't
speak in this way, but sometimes people can get scared about
attachment. Like, oh gosh, I'm, I'm
anxiously attached. I'm going to be this way forever
or I'm avoidantly attached or whatever.
And it's actually through relationships that we heal our
attachment style. You cannot do it on your on your
own. Like it's just impossible.
And so whether it's with a coach or a therapist or a partner,
like you have to kind of get into the muck.
And that's what I do with folks in, in the relationship work is
like encourage them to stay in that tension together.
And the tension sometimes is somebody who's more anxiously or
avoidantly attached, but sometimes it's just, there's a
really tough topic that people have been avoiding for whatever
reason. And, and in the queer community,
you know, there's lots of topics that are taboo and sex or
opening the relationship or whatever it may be.
And so being able to actually tolerate that tension and
differentiation comes from the father of family therapy, Mary
Bowen. And he really was was kind of
the first proponent of being able to have family systems stay
in the tension together and really differentiate and allow
people to be individuals inside of a family unit.
Very well said. In the book, you talk a lot
about and provide a lot of anecdotes around what
differentiation looks and sounds like.
There are conversations that of course you've changed the names
of the clients, but generally you know the conversation is
intact. You're talking about how someone
is opening up and how someone is receiving that.
I want to ask you, what has surprised you in your work
dealing with couples? Is there any example of a couple
that was on the brink and was able to come back or that you
thought would make it and then just didn't like what?
What has surprised you in your work?
I think it's always a surprise to me.
I'm not one of those people. And I don't, I don't think it's
possible to really hold yourself as a relational therapist and
say I, I want everyone to stay together or I want to have an
idea of who should stay together and who shouldn't.
Because there are people who decide to stay in relationships
that wouldn't work for me, but they work enough for them or,
you know, vice versa. And so for me, what, what is
heartwarming is when I see especially Game 2, like 2 gay
men who they didn't have the support, it's clear they didn't
have the parental support growing up.
It's clear that nobody really taught them the ways to
differentiate and be in relationship with somebody else.
And to see them take those incremental risks with each
other in the office and then start sharing more.
And then their relationship shifts in ways that I don't
think they even imagined possible when they first started
seeing me. And those are the people that I,
I love to work with because it's, you know, so, so many of
us have not been scaffolded enough and, and encouraged in
enough to stay with a relationship.
A lot of people will sometimes just leave a relationship if
it's not working for them in that moment.
But actually, I always say to folks, when we're first starting
out, whether this relationship works out or it doesn't, there
is no way you're not going to learn more about yourself in
this process. And learning more about yourself
is a gift that you can't possibly put a monetary or a
time value on. Because whether it's this
relationship or the next one, you're going to shift the way
that you show up and attach and connect with other people in
your life. Sometimes leaving the
relationship, is it working out for you?
And I think it's important to say that I've said it in various
ways in the show so far, but it can also be an act of love to
release someone if you know that you can't show up in the ways
that they need. And that is an act of
unconditional love, surrendering, releasing them to
find someone who can show up in the ways that they're hoping for
and who can accept them and work with them in the ways that they
need. Now, there's always fundamental
differences in a relationship that might not get resolved.
They don't have to be solved necessarily, but they need to be
respected. And there has to be empathy in
approaching that. And that process, of course, can
be found through differentiating and through having tough
conversations. Now, my anxiously attaching
audience, I can already hear them in my head saying I don't
want to have the conversation. I'm scared the other person is
going to leave me. I'm too much.
I don't want to be a burden. I don't want to be perceived as
needy. These are all things that you
know, and I know anxious attachers or those leaning
anxiously attached struggle with.
What do you have to say to those people?
That is where building the muscle around attachment, the
rubber really meets the road in that regard.
And so when I'm working with a couple and that's showing up
because it will show up, you know, even though I'm
encouraging them to take these risks and differentiate, I can
tell, especially for people who are more in the anxious side
that it's going to be hard. I meet with them individually.
I work with them so that they can trust themselves.
And then it really is about your attachment relationship with
yourself and knowing that you are worth actually taking that
risk and getting to the point where you're secure enough with
yourself that if this person isn't going to actually be OK
with what you want and desire, they're probably not the right
person for you. But that is a journey.
And so the people who are more on the anxious side of things
right now are going to hear me saying that and say, oh, I could
never say that or that, you know, that that feels really out
of reach. It may right now, but it doesn't
have to forever. Find someone who you feel safe
with and practice with them. If you need to do it in the
mirror, you can do it in the mirror.
I've had clients do this. I've had them record voice
notes, talking to themselves in the mirror, setting a boundary
or opening up to their partner. Then we review that and we edit
it down until you get to the point.
Many people on the anxious side of things are people pleasers,
which means they over explain. So getting to the crux of what
actually is happening for you and what you need in response to
that is really, really important.
And that muscle is built through that practice.
As I remind folks all the time, you got to get in the reps If
you want to rewire your brain. The brain learns through
repetition. It rewires that way.
So you got to get in the reps emotionally to do this.
I want to speak to single gay men out there.
Being one myself, you'll also be speaking to me.
What do you have in the ways of hope to offer inspiration, Hope
to give to single gay men who feel that there's not enough
options, Scarcity mindset, who might live in smaller cities.
Maybe they're not in a New York or San Francisco or DC or
Chicago or LA or Dallas. I'm in Charleston, SC so this
definitely resonates with me. How do you meet like minded
people not at bars? And for those who might want a
monogamous partnership and who might look around and see a lot
of non monogamy around them, what kind of hope and
inspiration do you have to offer to folks like that?
Well, starting with the monogamy, non monogamy thing, we
know 50% of gay couples are, most are in monogamous
relationships. It is possible.
There's a lot of people out there, you know, it's, it's
about 5050, you know, depending on the study that you look at.
We need more studies. We need more research on gay
relationships. And then moving to the piece
about really connecting and finding folks.
For me personally, it's like use the apps for what they're
intended for. They're intended for
introduction and then get off of them as quickly as possible.
You know, find somebody that that you connect with and get
into real life as soon as possible, because oftentimes the
way somebody presents themselves online and many people will
resonate with this. I'm sure they don't look like
their picture or they look better or you know, their energy
and their connection. You know, you connect better
actually in person. And so do it sooner rather than
later and try to go with your the things that you love to do.
I love to do theater. So, you know, joining a
community theater or connecting to the the gay men's chorus, if
you happen to live in a city that has that that kind of
opportunity or gay sports league, like go with your
interests. That way.
If you don't meet somebody that you connect with romantically,
you're still going to have a good time.
You're going to build a community.
You know, there's, there's lots of ways to get out of the bars
and get out of the apps and there are people just like you
looking to connect and it is possible.
But so often what I end up working with people who are
single around this with is like expanding their view of what
they're looking for in a relationship.
Because so often we have this like list of all of these
criteria of what we're looking for in a partner.
The list, yes, yeah. The list, and sometimes the list
are that they're really important things that are deal
Breakers and value based and sometimes they're not, you know,
and so really getting honest with yourself if you're looking
to connect with somebody, what is getting in the way of you
actually doing that? Very well said.
It always starts with you, and getting to know yourself and
what you value is incredibly important For me and my work.
I teach people that that's the compass.
That's the true north that we need to reorient back to because
as anxious attachers are those leaning that way, typically
we've looked to those around us and we've been heavily
influenced by how they feel, what they need, and bringing
that focus back to ourselves is really important.
So like Tom said, start with you.
Start with what you care about, what you're passionate about.
And if you don't know that, start with your curiosity.
What are you interested in exploring?
Is it a cooking class? Is it a pottery or ceramics
class? Is it doing vocal lessons?
Is it going to karaoke If you don't have a gay men's chorus or
there aren't gay sports leagues where you live, which there's
not where I live. But if you don't, start with
what you're interested in and remember that meeting other
people who maybe aren't even in our community can help too.
Just like when you're approaching finding a job and
you're trying to network your way into that job, you're only
going to get so far with your first and second degree
connections. It's your third and 4th degree
connections which you do not currently have access to.
That are going to be really powerful for you and that means
you're going to need to get out of your immediate environment
and get out of your house and off of your phone and into real
life to do that and to connect with others as well.
And like you were just saying earlier, if you live in a place
where there's not a lot of gay folks or queer folks, do a
travel experiment. Like there's lots of actual
travel groups around the world where you can travel with a
group of other. Like I just recently my partner
and I did a scuba trip with a bunch of gay men and from around
the world. And it was really fun.
And so, you know, we got to connect with different people
and that was again, following an interest.
And so if you have the resources and and the opportunity, there's
lots of different ways to get out there.
You just got to keep putting yourself out there, keep getting
back on that horse. Yes, absolutely.
Anything else on the front of empowerment or feeling more
secure in dating as a gay man, or even just in general that you
want to share? Think the self compassion piece
is really important. So whether you feel like you're
more anxious or more avoidant or disorganized or whatever, it is
like just being compassionate with yourself around that it's
not your fault and you know you can grow through it.
I'm not going to pretend it's not going to be difficult or
painful or it's not going to take some effort, but like,
you're worth it. I think so often the commute,
the messages that we get as, as gay and queer folks is that
there's something wrong with us or we're not worth it or, you
know, we're damaged in some way. Again, not everybody.
This is there. There's a lot of queer joy and
resistance out there, but connect into that, like follow
people on social media. If you're doing that, that, that
celebrate queer and gay joy and connect to the amazing aspects
of being gay. I mean, I, I wouldn't change
being gay for anything at this point in my life, but it's, it's
because I feel like I'm fully myself and I'm connected to
other people who are fully themselves.
And we don't only have to look at the death, the difficult
aspects of being gay or queer. We can actually also embrace the
queer joy as a form of. That's one of the reasons why
Shits Creek was so powerful for me, I think is it was one of the
first shows that didn't have someone dying of AIDS, that
didn't have this massive relational struggle where one
person was chasing the other. And there was this dance, this
anxious avoidant dynamic, this push pull trauma bond that many
of us do tend to recreate in our adult relationships.
It was a person, Patrick, who came out and it wasn't a big
deal. And he was able to form a new
relationship in a healthy way with David, who had been through
the ringer. And that really resonated with
me at a deep level. And one of the reasons why I
think it resonated with so many people generally, at least in
our community, you know, it's there's so many amazing aspects
to that show just generally. But I think from a queer
standpoint, that was really impactful for me to see.
That and somebody somewhere is also another one.
I don't know if you've seen that, but it is another one.
It's it's, it's based in a small town in Kansas and it's a queer
community and they're just existing and living life and
it's, it is so joy filled and beautiful and queer.
And it's another one I really I recommend folks view.
I just wrote that down. I'm definitely gonna look into
that. You know, I remember sitting and
watching Call Me by Your name, the movie and being I never read
the book and just going into a blind and thinking, Oh no, Oh
no. When they start traveling
together and spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie, but
you know, I was expecting, oh God, he's gonna die.
Like, you know, there's that expectation of grief that so
many of us have in our community and maybe even carry with us
because of the generational trauma of the AIDS pandemic.
But that said, you know, I think also seeking out healthy role
models, which many of us have lacked, as you say in the book
and have said today, is really empowering.
It can help to write over some of that programming inside that
makes you anticipate someone leaving or someone dying, God
forbid, or they're just generally having to be drama or
trauma that defines relationships.
It doesn't have to be that way, folks.
It doesn't. There is another quote that I
wanted to bring up and I don't have any question to ask with
this, but I just wanted to share it with folks because it really
resonated with me. Especially on the note of
talking about media. You say on page 177, we have
been taught through media and ROM coms that we want someone
who will be able to read our minds and anticipate our every
need. In reality, that's not realistic
to expect from our adult attachment relationships.
The fantasy of having someone in our lives who can anticipate our
every need is better reserved for infant and caregiver
relationships. If you didn't have that kind of
nurturing from your caregivers growing up, as many of us
didn't, that's work for therapy, not your adult relationships.
What do you have to say to that? Yeah, I mean, I, I stand by that
100%. And and so often people, so many
couples are coming to mind as, as I'm thinking about this right
now, who I work with in the office, who they are pulling for
that. They're pulling for healing and
again, not pathologizing that. There's nothing wrong with that.
You didn't get that as a child and you deserved it.
And if you keep pulling for it from romantic figures in your
life, you're going to continue to be hurt.
It's going to be just more disappointment.
And so being willing to do the effort and kind of do some
healing around that yourself. It's, it's a gift that I'm so
grateful I gave myself. And it's, it's something that I
I see people time and time again grow through some of these
attachment wounds and live lives that they couldn't even think
possible before they started that journey.
The irony. Is when you kind of level set
your expectations relationally and learn to take better care of
yourself and to differentiate away and diversify away from
your romantic partnership. You will actually usually find
that that partner will lean back in and creating the space for
them to show up authentically is really important.
But when you haven't addressed your shit, you will expect other
people to do for you what you're not doing for yourself.
And in particular, we will look to a romantic partner to try to
fill the void that somebody else left behind.
Of course, that void does not really exist.
It is a misinterpretation of a traumatic experience that
there's something wrong with you because of how you were treated.
But that said, it is also incredibly invalidating for the
other person because you're not seeing them for who they are.
You're seeing them for who you expect them to be in order to
fit the mold that is most comfortable for you.
And fitting into a mold is not the goal of having a partner.
That is a project. You don't want a project, you
want a partner. One of the interventions I do so
often early with couples is have people put their hand on their
heart and just say it's not about me.
You know, what the other person is sharing right now.
It's about them and really differentiating and allowing
that space, which you know, does take time and it's a, it's an
ongoing lifelong process. It really is, yes, and I love
the hand on the heart trick and saying that it's not about me.
I can see people at home doing that already.
I want to bring up one final topic from the book, which is
about two different relationship dynamics that you name.
You talk about how there are roommate relationships and
reality show relationships. I think you actually call it
reality TV relationships. So talk to me.
Talk to us about the differences between them and why it's
important to identify those two in particular.
So a lot of times people will come in to see me in that, that
stage of the relationships where the differences are really
starting to surface and they're starting to differentiate or one
person starting to differentiate.
And if, if differentiation is not happening in a relationship,
that's when you can fall into one of those two camps.
And the roommate relationships are people who really avoid
conflict at all costs. And so they're going to, you
know, sit on, sweep things under the rug, you know, very
Midwestern folks, You know, that's the, you know, avoiding
conflict at all costs. Yeah, just be either.
Stop there. Pretend it's not there, which
doesn't work, right? We know that doesn't work.
That ends up building up resentment.
And then you're more likely to have less sex.
You're more likely to have people who are going out and
seeking affairs. I mean, it kind of happens more
in that in that bucket of folks other the other bucket of folks,
the reality show relationships that those are the more, you
know, angry fighting couples who they can't live with each other.
They can't live without each other.
And you see them fighting all the time.
They'll go to a nice dinner and they'll fight and then they'll
make up and then they'll go on vacation and they'll fight.
And that is another way of trying to address the
differences, but in unconstructive ways.
And so those folks that the work for them is to be able to just
slow down and understand and listen for understanding and not
try to solve any problems or anything like that, but just
really be present and curious with their partners.
The more conflict avoided folks, the goal for them is to take
those risks and bring, bring the conflict into the room.
And it's it's risk. It feels risky in both senses
because these, the people that you're in relationships with are
the most important people in your life at one point.
I love your idea of diversification there.
That is such a healthy kind of differentiating concept to
really allow there to be more people at your table who can
fill fill your cup and fill your heart.
Thank you. Yeah, we're a tribal species,
y'all, If you're listening to this or watching this, we're not
in a cave anymore, but our body is still programmed.
Our nervous system is still wired evolutionarily to need
other people, so it's important to make sure that you surround
yourself with folks that you feel safe with.
And if you lack that safety or perceive to lack that safety in
your romantic relationship, you've got to seek it out
elsewhere. And if you don't have it
anywhere in your life, hire a professional that you feel
really gets you, like Tom or myself or both, because therapy
and coaching are different approaches.
I work with both consistently and I feel supported in
different ways in each environment.
And each practitioner is different.
So just make sure that you are authentic and how you're showing
up when you're looking for a mental health practitioner and
that you're asking the tough questions.
How do you address this? What's your approach to this?
You know, it's kind of like dating in a way.
You've got to find someone that you feel really gets you, and
that can even be practice for other environments as well.
Exactly. Tom, I just want to say this has
been an absolute pleasure before.
We give folks a way to find you and resources that you might
have for them. Any other final notes that you
wanted to share regarding queer relationships?
Whether you're in our community and single or in a relationship
or outside of our community, just learning about some of
these nuances. Yeah, I think, I think if
you're, if you are a queer person or you're not a queer
person or you're an ally, like we've talked a lot today about
queer trauma. And I think it's really
important, especially right now as there are more laws that are
anti trans on the books across the country than ever before
that we are also leaning into the queer joy and and queer
queer joy is a way of resistance.
And so it is not doom and gloom and loneliness to be a queer
person. There's lots of beauty there.
And so I just, I just think it's important to balance.
That, as I remind folks all the time, you're not healing to
better manage trauma, you're healing to better hold joy.
And that message resonates with that as well.
Tom, how can my viewers and listeners find you?
I am on Instagram and YouTube and lots of different places
with queer relationship Institute is the handle for
that. And then on my website if, if
folks are interested a queerrelationshipinstitute.com.
There's a bunch of free resources there.
So there are discussion cards for gay men that people can
download for free and there's a free mini communication course
that people can download with with some video lessons.
And then I, and so if you're a therapist or a coach listening
to this, I also have some free resources for those folks as
well. So I love to kind of give people
resources as often as I can. Fabulous.
I love those conversation cards. I'm definitely going to check
those out. And again, that's queer
relationshipinstitute.com. And again, Tom wrote a book, the
go to relationship guide for gay men.
My camera is blurring it out here, but this is what the cover
looks like. And where can folks find your
book? It is on Amazon.
You can get it from the publisher, Jessica Kingsley,
publishingbookshop.org. Anywhere where you get your
books, you'll be able to get it. Kindle.
It's all those places. Tom, thanks again for coming on
the show and happy Pride Month. You as well.
Thanks, Chris.