1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 Hello everyone and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,760 dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,200 I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,400 author Chris Ratcliffe. I've worked with thousands of 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,960 people across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,240 attachment through my books, workshops, digital downloads, 7 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:23,480 and coaching program. I'm honored to carry on that 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,120 mission here in the podcast, sharing tools and techniques, 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,600 principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,240 growing more secure. Welcome back to the show, 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,440 everyone. I know I took a little bit of a 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,840 hiatus, a little mental health break. 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,200 Sometimes producing a lot of content can where on a content 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,280 creator. So thank you for your patience 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,400 and I'm super excited to welcome my next guest who all intro in a 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,800 moment. But before I do, I just wanted 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,000 to say that I made a decision a while ago that I wanted to use 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,760 my platform to highlight things that were important to me 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,959 personally. And as an out and proud gay man 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:11,040 for 24 years now, I thought it would be interesting to welcome 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,040 someone who specializes in queer relationships on to the show in 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,200 honor of Pride Month. Because even though we're 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,560 recording this in May, it is now June when you're hearing this. 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,640 So happy Pride Month, everyone. I'm now going to intro you to 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,720 Tom Brewett, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,600 and trains therapists in the Bader Pearson Developmental 27 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,600 model of couples therapy. He has a specialization in 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:42,520 working with LGBTQIA 2S plus relationships and practices in 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,000 California and Colorado. His new book, which I personally 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,840 enjoyed, by the way, the go to relationship guide for gay men 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,600 is available now. Welcome to the show, Tom. 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,000 Thanks for coming on Needy No More. 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,160 Yeah, of course. I'm really glad to be here, 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:58,840 Chris. Thanks. 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,920 Thanks for asking me and thanks for reading the book. 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:02,760 Of course, you're more than welcome. 37 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,280 I'm an author myself and I do have a personal pet peeve for 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,600 podcast hosts that don't at least explore the work of people 39 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,800 that they have on their show. I've been on the receiving end 40 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,520 of that and it's very awkward and strange and way over 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,600 general. And, you know, I'm a gay man 42 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,960 myself and I'm single and I'm excited to dive into this convo 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,920 as well. Before we dive in, I just kind 44 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:31,840 of want to set the stage here. A lot of my audience is straight 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,920 or straight leaning. And you know, I want to talk 46 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:38,400 about some of the complexities and nuances of gay and queer 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,640 relationships that folks might not understand if they're not 48 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:45,960 familiar with some of those complexities and nuances that 49 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,400 you and I, as gay men are just by our lived experience. 50 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:53,000 So let's start off with this question. 51 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,240 How do queer relationships differ from heteronormative 52 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,880 ones? Talk to me about some of those 53 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,440 nuances and complexities. Yeah, I think this is a great 54 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,320 question. And while there are some 55 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,040 similarities in terms of what makes a healthy relationship, of 56 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,280 course, across genders and orientations and relationship 57 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,760 structures and all that kind of stuff, there are some unique 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,640 aspects of queer relationships that do make them different. 59 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,200 And I think first of all, because my book is mostly geared 60 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,120 towards gay men, I kind of chose that Channel even though I work 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,720 with the broader queer community. 62 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,120 I really wanted to speak to gay men in this book. 63 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,040 And so in gay male relationships, we have to think 64 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,240 about the fact that we were socialized male in a culture 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,480 that, you know, I think we still have some work to do around 66 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,240 gender. And so just kind of starting 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,640 with that aspect of it, If you're socialized male and 68 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,320 you're in relationship with somebody else who's been 69 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,720 socialized male, there's a lot of complexities that exist in 70 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,640 that kind of dynamic. Paternalism. 71 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,360 Patriarchy. Toxic masculinity? 72 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Yes, of course, all of that comes up when you start talking 73 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,040 about two men trying to build a life together in a society that 74 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,160 makes you think that you shouldn't or that it's wrong. 75 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,680 Many. Of us didn't have, you know, we 76 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:04,960 didn't have relationship role models. 77 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaking myself when I was coming of age, there weren't, 78 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,880 you know, examples of what healthy queer and gay 79 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,720 relationships could look like in the media. 80 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,560 And not that we should be looking to the media for our, 81 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,720 you know, our education on what relationship structures are. 82 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,360 But if you're not finding it at home because many of us didn't 83 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,960 grow up in households with gay parents or queer parents, and 84 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,040 you're not finding it in your community because, you know, 85 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,840 again, if if you're not seeing it in your family circle or in 86 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,360 your extended family, it's, it's where are the windows and 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,360 mirrors? And so a lot of us look to 88 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:33,960 media. And when there are no media 89 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,400 representations of healthy queer relationships, that's another 90 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,360 area that I think really makes it challenging for a lot of gay 91 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,960 and queer folks. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. 92 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,960 I mean, growing up, and I remember you talking about this 93 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,760 in the book, your own experience with this, and I really 94 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,920 connected with it as well. There was Queer as Folk, which I 95 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,120 know you talk about, you know, a little bit in terms of some of 96 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,000 the the leanings attachment wise of some of the characters in the 97 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,440 show and how it really does demonstrate in a queer way what 98 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,960 I think we saw a lot of in Carrie and Biggs relationship on 99 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,080 sex and the city. This toxic back and forth push 100 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,240 pull. Will they or won't they? 101 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,440 Anxious avoidant pairing that so many people listening and 102 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,960 watching are of course familiar with. 103 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,960 But really beyond that and like willing grace, there wasn't a 104 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,960 whole lot. I mean, Ellen had come out. 105 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,000 I don't even think Lance Bass had come out come out yet when I 106 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,120 was in high school. So yeah, I totally hear what 107 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,440 you're saying there. So we've got that influence, 108 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,240 that complexity, but what else? What's different that people 109 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,280 watching and listening might not know about? 110 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,880 Maybe in terms of sexual roles or some of that nuance and 111 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,400 complexity, as well as just like relationship structure, right? 112 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,200 Which I know that you talk about in your book, having personal 113 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,240 experience with consensual, consensual non monogamy. 114 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,920 So walk us through a little bit more of those complexities too. 115 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,960 Sure. So, so for many of us, if we're 116 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,680 if we are socialized straight or heterosexual in this in this 117 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,880 culture, there's something like a relationship escalator that 118 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,320 many of us are assumed to be on. So you date for a little while, 119 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,160 you get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you move 120 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,520 to the suburb, all that kind of stuff. 121 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,240 When once you get on it, you sort of know the trajectory of 122 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,640 how your relationship is going to look. 123 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,200 For a lot of gay and queer folks, that's not the case. 124 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:22,960 Gay marriage is now the law of the land. 125 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,240 But there still are, you know, complexities to actually 126 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,080 creating a community and creating a family and, you know, 127 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,880 even family planning if you wanted to have children. 128 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,040 Like, it's not just as cut and dry as it is. 129 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,880 You can't accidentally get pregnant for for many queer 130 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:36,720 folks. Right. 131 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,080 And so that's a part of it, which I think is actually an 132 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,600 opportunity because then it allows us through the process of 133 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,440 really authentic communication to create relationship 134 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,120 structures that work for us. And so, I mean, I think that's 135 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,840 one piece of it that we could look at it as a challenge, but 136 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:53,720 we can also look at it as an opportunity. 137 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,320 Yeah, it is kind of a perk or a benefit that flexibility in 138 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,880 terms of not approaching things from such a specifically 139 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,560 structured way that it has to be this way and that it has to 140 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,800 progress in this order, and that these are the milestones that 141 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,240 have to be hit. I love that escalator analogy. 142 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,440 That's really powerful and poignant, I think. 143 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,520 And then if we pivot to the sexual piece, you know, for a 144 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,080 lot of folks, I mean, if we just think about sex Ed for a moment, 145 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,320 and I know sex Ed is under attack in much of our country 146 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,880 and much of the world. If if you are fortunate enough 147 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,880 to get pleasure focused sex Ed, it's probably going to be hetero 148 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,080 focused. And so you're probably not going 149 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,520 to get pleasure focused sex Ed that is queer inclusive in most 150 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,120 schools even still today. It certainly wasn't around when 151 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,560 I was when I was coming of age. And so we're learning about sex 152 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,080 through porn or through experimentation, which, you 153 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,120 know, porn is not bad in and of itself, but it's not sex Ed. 154 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,720 And so you know that that can create a lot of complexity 155 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,320 around really getting in touch with your own pleasure and what 156 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,280 your desires are and what turns you on. 157 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,640 And then when you end up in a relationship with somebody, it 158 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,120 can be tricky to actually articulate, hey, this is 159 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,040 something I'm really desiring sexually. 160 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,920 Great point. And that brings up another topic 161 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,000 I wanted to explore with you that's covered in depth in your 162 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,080 book, which is this idea of a second adolescence for queer 163 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,120 people. Can you talk about that a little 164 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,200 bit? I I know what you mean when you 165 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160 say that, but when you talk about that, what does that mean 166 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,680 exactly? Many people. 167 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,440 So when you're going through adolescence, typically it's 168 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,280 12/13/14, that error of your life. 169 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,559 You're experimenting with a lot of different things, 170 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,080 relationships being one of them. And if you are straight, you're 171 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,600 encouraged to kind of date and, and have experimental 172 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,520 relationships during that period of time. 173 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,600 If you're queer or gay and you're not out and it's not safe 174 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,480 to be out, you don't get that same opportunity. 175 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,000 And so that often happens a lot later in life. 176 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,600 And adolescence is a really important, beautiful time in 177 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,120 life because you're learning a lot more about yourself, about 178 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,680 what you desire, what you long for, what you don't like. 179 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,600 And so many of us in in the queer community, we have that 180 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,200 experience after we come out. And so that may be later in life 181 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,520 for for some folks. I mean, there's some people who 182 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,120 don't come out until they're 5060 and they may have, you 183 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,520 know, an experimentation period that happens a lot later in 184 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,480 life. And that, of course, impacts 185 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,520 relationships. Of course. 186 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Yeah. There's so much trial and error 187 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,240 that happens when you're young, right? 188 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,800 You're trying on different hats. You're seeing how different 189 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,240 things feel. You're learning to, I mean, 190 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,920 theoretically set boundaries, say no, learn about consent, all 191 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,360 things that are important for building relationships. 192 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,600 And yet, even when someone does come out in their teens, and I 193 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:47,240 can speak to this because I came out at the age of 14 in 2001 as 194 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,280 a freshman in high school. I pulled aside a handful of my 195 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,400 best girlfriends at the time who I'd only known for a few months 196 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,440 because I went to a magnet school. 197 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,880 And that in and of itself speaks to being gay, that I had made so 198 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,680 many girlfriends in such a short period of time. 199 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:05,960 But that said, you know, even though I was out and the whole 200 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,560 school knew I wasn't necessarily comfortable, even when prompted 201 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:15,840 by other people to talk about my sexuality, I didn't feel safe 202 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,480 doing so. Not necessarily physically, but 203 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:20,640 emotionally. I didn't want to put myself in a 204 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,680 situation that would have been risky or scary. 205 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,080 You know, a lot of what was covered in the media in my 206 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:33,080 childhood in the 90s was about people being beat up for being 207 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,120 gay. Matthew Shepard comes to mind. 208 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,880 And even though I was out and people knew about it, I didn't 209 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,640 feel comfortable exploring that fully. 210 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,000 So what Tom is talking about is so important because many people 211 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,800 don't realize that even when you come out, which is a process not 212 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,400 just for the self, but for those around someone who is queer. 213 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,360 And that's important. I once had someone ask me, why 214 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,080 did you need to come out? Well, because it's important to 215 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,520 be your authentic self and for people to know that. 216 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,960 And of course, I, like many others, was a bit late to that 217 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,360 conversation. Other people knew before I did. 218 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,440 And then I caught wind of the fact that, yeah, I guess, yes, I 219 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,240 am. But that said, I think it's 220 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,840 important to talk about this because in my 20s too, and in 221 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,360 college and even maybe into my early 30s, and even today in 222 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,080 some ways, I'm still experimenting and exploring what 223 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,400 it means to be me, as many people do. 224 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,200 But a lot of that just gets delayed because you don't feel 225 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,040 safe or comfortable enough expressing yourself 226 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,800 authentically. Did I capture that well, Tom? 227 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,080 You. Yes, you. 228 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,680 You captured it beautifully. Thank you. 229 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,560 I appreciate that. I think it's so important for, 230 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,720 you know, my mostly straight audience here to hear about this 231 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,280 because there's so much that even when I'm talking to family 232 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,600 and friends who are very accepting and very queer 233 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,640 friendly and our allies, they don't even necessarily fully 234 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,040 understand the experience of what it's like to grow up gay 235 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,120 and to have that kind of second queer adolescent. 236 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,360 I want to ask you this. There's, I think a perception in 237 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,760 our community that there's a lot of barriers or challenges that 238 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,480 gay men specifically struggle with when it comes to dating and 239 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,080 relationships. I can speak to some of these 240 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,720 personally, but I want you to lead this. 241 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,600 What do you think some of the biggest barriers or challenges 242 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,320 that gay men specifically deal with when it comes to dating as 243 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,440 a single person and then being in a relationship with another 244 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,080 man? What do they deal with? 245 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,920 What are the complicating factors here? 246 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,280 What do you usually see in your practice? 247 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,120 I mean, there's so many. I'm going to start with the idea 248 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,520 that if you if you learn to hide a part of yourself at a very 249 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,120 young age, it's very difficult to actually then connect with 250 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,040 somebody in an authentic, intimate way. 251 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:00,040 And so a lot of gay men have learned to sort of put bits and 252 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,280 pieces of themselves to the side and then they get into a 253 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,040 relationship and they still hold some of those pieces back. 254 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,560 An example from my own life, you know, I, I could have sex with 255 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,440 lots of different people, lots of sex. 256 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,040 I couldn't talk about it very well. 257 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,200 And, you know, that's just one small aspect of my life, but I 258 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,560 couldn't talk about it because I, I, you know, I didn't really 259 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,520 understand it myself. I wasn't connected to my own 260 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,160 wants, feelings, wishes, desires around sex and sexuality. 261 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,760 So then when I actually tried to connect with a partner or 262 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,520 partners, it's very difficult. And so add that to the mix 263 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,160 around being socialized male and the complexities that come with 264 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,640 that. And then we add in the fact that 265 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,920 there aren't that many of us. If we look at the the 266 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,000 population, the LGBTQ folks in general, population is growing, 267 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,840 especially with younger folks. But a big percentage of those 268 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,840 people are bisexual. And bisexual folks can choose to 269 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,640 be in relationships with men, of course. 270 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,480 But if we look at people who solely identify as gay men, it's 271 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,720 still a pretty small portion of the population. 272 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,400 So even in your high school, there probably weren't other, 273 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,920 you know, out gay men That, and if there were, they may not be 274 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:03,040 people that you were attracted to. 275 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,280 Just because they're gay doesn't mean you're into them. 276 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,840 Yes, good point there. Definitely. 277 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,080 OK, that's definitely a big one. I think that people should 278 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,480 understand what else what comes to mind. 279 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,360 There is, I think a loneliness piece that a lot of people will 280 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,640 bring forward. Like when I see people, when 281 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,960 people come in to see me there, I do hear sometimes complaints 282 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,280 of like it just feels very lonely in the gay community. 283 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,240 And when you have a community of folks who are marginalized, 284 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,600 there are certain self protections that come in place. 285 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,360 And so we know that from the studies, a lot of gay men fall 286 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,840 into the avoidant or disorganized end of the 287 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,000 spectrum. So when you have people who have 288 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,640 self protected in that way, it's very difficult again, to be 289 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,880 vulnerable and do the things that you need to do in, in order 290 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,760 to be in a relationship. And just, you know, it's, it 291 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,800 just creates more and more barriers for connection. 292 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,400 There's a lot of insecure attachment out there in our 293 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,600 community, Definitely. I've worked with several gay men 294 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,760 who have an anxious or disorganized leaning anxious 295 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,480 attachment style and wanted to do some of that somatic work, 296 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,680 trauma work, a personal development work of 297 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,160 understanding their needs, their values, their love languages, 298 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,640 etcetera, so that they could open themselves up better to 299 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,680 even being emotionally available. 300 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,320 So that's definitely a big one that I know will resonate with a 301 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,560 lot of people watching and listening just because as 302 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,760 anxious attachers or folks leaning anxious, we've dealt 303 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,480 with a lot of those same dynamics in our relational 304 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,200 history as well. Does anything else come to mind? 305 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,360 By the way, I know that that isolation and loneliness is a 306 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,480 big one because I have felt it myself in my own journey and I 307 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,520 do want to come back to that a little bit later. 308 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,640 But keep going, OK? We also know that, you know, 309 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,120 just recently, every year, the Travel Project, which is an 310 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,560 LGBTQ youth organization, puts out statistics on the mental 311 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,080 health of queer folks around the country, around the world. 312 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,680 It's not shocking with the way the political landscape is, but 313 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,080 it's still, if we look at the statistics, the mental health 314 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,280 statistics for LGBTQ folks, it is still staggeringly horrific 315 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:08,120 how much depression, anxiety, PTSD, you know, substance use or 316 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,800 substance misuse is at play. We know this is, this is harder 317 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,160 for our BIPOC members of our community and for trans folks 318 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,160 and non, non binary folks, those numbers are even higher. 319 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,000 But when we look at gay male statistics, even though marriage 320 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,600 equality has happened and there has been a lot of progress 321 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,960 politically in some really important ways, there still are 322 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,600 statistics that I don't think we fully understand yet. 323 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,280 And I think minority stress plays a, a role in it. 324 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,960 I think societal pressures, there's systemic, systemic 325 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,360 issues at play here that contribute to that. 326 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,680 And then there's still are people, I mean, I'm still 327 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,800 working with young gay and queer folks who come out and are, are 328 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,000 disowned from their family. I mean, it is still happening in 329 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,360 2025. And, you know, so I, I think 330 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,040 when you Add all of those complexities together, it's not 331 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,360 a surprise that some of us struggle to actually connect and 332 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,720 be intimate with other men or other people. 333 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,880 That's a great point. You know, there's so many cues 334 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,880 coming externally from around you when you're a queer person. 335 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,040 And speaking as a gay man, I know this, that you're not good 336 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,040 enough, that you shouldn't be who you are. 337 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,119 There's so much shame and guilt that's wrapped up in that 338 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,920 experience. And there's a quote that 339 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,880 circulates online all the time, and I'm probably going to 340 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,119 butcher it, but it talks about how when you grow up as a gay 341 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,319 person or a gay man, in this instance, if you grow up 342 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:33,040 presenting a version to other people that you think they're 343 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,080 going to accept and tolerate. And that creates the safety that 344 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,720 you don't feel you'll have if you do present authentically or 345 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,880 if you are vulnerable and show yourself fully to those around 346 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,160 you. So you learn to be a bit of a 347 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,320 chameleon. And that is a really painful 348 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,560 experience to go through. Imagine, for instance, if you're 349 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,880 watching this or listening to this, that you have a boss that 350 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,720 doesn't support your relationship at all, who doesn't 351 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,400 like your partner, who doesn't like the fact that maybe you're 352 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,760 married or you been together or you live together. 353 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,600 And think about how stressful that would be to hold back that 354 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,920 part of yourself, even just at work, which obviously is a big 355 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,440 part of our lives. And then take that and apply it 356 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,040 to your entire life with everyone in your life as a gay 357 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,520 person. That's what it feels like. 358 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,240 It's tough. It's really well said and you 359 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,320 know, there's a quote, there's a book called Boys and sex that 360 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,160 and there's a quote from that book that says gay men are the 361 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,760 spies and the hyper masculinity. And it's true because as young 362 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,440 boys, we learn how to pass, we learn how to code switch and we 363 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,720 learn how because it's for our own safety. 364 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,000 A lot of the times, you know, before we even know what the 365 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,440 word gay means, before we're even sexualized, a lot of us 366 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,720 have experiences of just not being right in some way. 367 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,600 If you are a parent out there and you suspect that your child 368 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,520 is gay or queer something, talk about it with them. 369 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,120 So many people, especially from my generation, were like, oh, 370 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,840 we'll wait for them to bring it up with us. 371 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,560 It's like, why would you allow your child to suffer for years 372 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,160 and years and years when as the parent in the room, you could 373 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,120 have introduced the conversation a lot earlier? 374 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,600 You're not going to turn them gay or queer by doing that. 375 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,360 You're just going to make it that much safer for them to 376 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,480 actually express things to you when it's time. 377 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,280 And what an emotionally mature approach. 378 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,640 And as the adult in the room, yes, you should probably be the 379 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,720 one who brings up that conversation and not let that 380 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,000 burden fall to the person in the dynamic who is looking to their 381 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,280 parent for guidance and support and advice. 382 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,240 Very well set there. I want to back up for a moment 383 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,840 and define a couple of things or give a couple of examples for 384 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,120 folks. So when Tom talks about by POC, 385 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,200 he's talking about Black, Indigenous, and people of color 386 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:46,920 there. So when we mentioned that 387 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,120 earlier, if you're not familiar with that phrase, that's what 388 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,960 that means. Also code switching, if you 389 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,320 don't know what that means, that would be like, for instance, 390 00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,160 when I'm in a group that I feel super safe with, like mostly 391 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,720 girls, probably I would say like, hey girl, how you doing, 392 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,800 Diva? You know, like my voice would be 393 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,000 higher, I would be using different words, I would be 394 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,840 speaking differently. And then if I get in an Uber or 395 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,320 a taxi, I would say, hey man, how's your day? 396 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,960 My tone is different, I'm using different words, I'm holding 397 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:18,520 back. I'm switching into a more 398 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,200 masculine version of myself in order to create an environment 399 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,240 that I perceive as safe. That's what Tom means when he 400 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,520 says code switching, if you're not familiar with that. 401 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,080 Beautiful descriptions, thank you for adding that in. 402 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:32,000 Of course. Yeah. 403 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,320 OK. I want to share a quote in your 404 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,360 book that really resonated with me and I want to use it as kind 405 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,440 of a bouncing off point here for the conversation you say on page 406 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,040 38 of the Go to Relationship guide for Gay men in session, 407 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,880 sometimes a client will describe more blatant forms of 408 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,320 internalized homophobia when they claim to hate the whole gay 409 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,480 community or say that gay men are all sluts or conceited or 410 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,840 drug addicts or whatever. When we make blanket 411 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,920 generalizations about an entire community, it is usually rooted 412 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,840 in hatred and fear. That is what I often see. 413 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,960 Internalized homophobia is usually an indicator of the deep 414 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,160 wound of self hatred. It's hard to be in a 415 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,760 relationship with yourself or anyone else for that matter, 416 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,640 when you have such a negative inner critic in the mix. 417 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,280 That really resonated with me, Tom. 418 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,080 And I also think in our community, there is some truth 419 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:37,320 to the fact that there's a lot of hyper sexualization, that 420 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,520 there is a lot of addictive coping happening. 421 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,920 You know, many people relying on drugs and alcohol or other 422 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,160 substances, for instance, to numb their experience. 423 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,560 Maybe they don't have the mental health support that they need. 424 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,400 Maybe they haven't addressed some of the shame and guilt that 425 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,200 I brought up earlier. But talk to me about that quote 426 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,160 a little bit more about that internalized homophobia, and 427 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,480 then maybe we can explore some of the perceptions that people 428 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,840 within our community and maybe people outside of our community 429 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,520 might have as well. Yeah, I mean, internalized 430 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,200 homophobia is so linked with shame and shame I think is one 431 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,000 of the most sticky emotions that there are out there because it's 432 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,000 it's very difficult. Like guilt is I did something 433 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,000 wrong, shame as I am wrong. And so when you think that that 434 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,760 you are wrong at your core, there's something wrong with you 435 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,280 or off about you or not right about you, then you do look at 436 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,480 the world through that perspective. 437 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,880 And it's very difficult not to feel isolated and alone in the 438 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,080 gay community at times. And there are, you know, I hear 439 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,320 this all of the time that the gay community can, especially in 440 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,440 certain big cities, can feel clicky or can feel isolating. 441 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,680 A lot of people long for a tribe of, of gay friends and then they 442 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,720 feel, you know, really disconnected because they feel 443 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,800 like they've been and rejected by certain aspects of the 444 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,160 community. And, you know, I think kind of 445 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,120 tying that into the sexualization piece, that's what 446 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,560 we see a lot of social media and I mean, sex cells, right? 447 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,880 And so social media is a form of marketing. 448 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,320 And you know, when we look at what, and it's the same, I think 449 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,680 in heterosexual marketing, if we look at the images that, that 450 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,520 women are forced to, to look at, and even straight men, they're 451 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,600 not, they're not bodies that are actually sustainable for a lot 452 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040 of people. So then it's another layer of 453 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,480 shame of feeling like, oh, gosh, I, I don't look like that. 454 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,000 I'm not, I am not that way. And so it, it, it can get 455 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,920 directed. All of those internal feelings 456 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,160 can get directed externally, which then makes it more 457 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,880 challenging to actually connect with people. 458 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,400 Good point. Yeah, it can be a self 459 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,120 fulfilling prophecy for sure there, because nobody wants to 460 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,320 keep someone around who is critical all the time, who is 461 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,960 voicing their active hatred of an entire community of people 462 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,680 that's not someone that you really generally want to have 463 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,360 around. And then they'll of course 464 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:03,680 ostracize. And that abandonment feels 465 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,800 really damaging and damning in a lot of ways. 466 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,520 So I hear that completely. And yet there might be some 467 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,960 truth to that perspective too, because at least in my 468 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,880 experience, there's, I feel like a lot of pressure to have sex 469 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,800 and to talk about sex. And as men, obviously, this does 470 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,280 come up maybe a bit more than other cohorts. 471 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,280 And this year in particular, I've been taking a break from 472 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,240 drinking. I haven't had a drink since New 473 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,880 Year's Eve. I'm more than four months in 474 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,560 now. I feel great. 475 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,160 But you know, sometimes when you go out or when I go out and I 476 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,840 see other people drinking and to the point of excessive 477 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,280 intoxication or binge drinking and things like that, there's 478 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,320 also talk of doing other substances and then that of 479 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,440 course leads potentially somewhere else from a sex 480 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,920 standpoint. What do you hear in your 481 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,120 practice from folks who might be in a similar position to me? 482 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:08,120 What do they say? Gay bars were the original safe 483 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:10,600 spaces for queer folks. You know, if we look back to the 484 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,360 Stonewall riots in 1969, even before that, bars were rated. 485 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,400 It wasn't until drag Queens and trans folks and LGBTQ folks 486 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,240 really stood up and said no longer are we going to take this 487 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,160 kind of abuse that things started to shift. 488 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,760 But I think there is still a legacy in our community where 489 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,320 bars are the safe spaces. I don't know about you, but for 490 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,240 me, I don't, I don't love being like one of three gay people in 491 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,320 a room. I really do prefer to be in a 492 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,280 community of people who I can let my guard down a little bit 493 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,760 more. I can be more of my authentic 494 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,040 self. Of course, I have straight 495 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,760 friends, and, you know, that's important too. 496 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,000 But, you know, there's something about being in a fully queer or 497 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,560 gay space that does feel incredibly safe. 498 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,800 I do think, you know, kind of coming to your connection of 499 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,760 hypersexuality or substance overuse. 500 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,600 We know that if you're not feeling great about yourself, 501 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,880 substances can be a way to escape. 502 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,480 It could be a way to regulate. It could be a way to take care 503 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,240 of yourself. If you're super anxious, you may 504 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,680 drink more before you go to social settings because that 505 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,080 makes you, you know, let your hair down a little bit more. 506 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,040 But if it can become a slippery slope for some people, the sex 507 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,800 piece, I think, you know, the, the hyper sexuality is the most 508 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,600 visible, But whatever your sexuality is, it's OK. 509 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,200 Some people have higher sex drives, some people have lower 510 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,600 sex drives. They're they're all totally 511 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,720 natural. And so I think people can again, 512 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,760 get into comparing themselves and social media, I think is has 513 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,720 not done done us a lot of service in this department. 514 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,360 But you know, really being able to tease out that whatever your 515 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,800 sex drive is, if it's authentically true to what you 516 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,840 desire, great. Go with it. 517 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,960 If you feel like it's it's not aligned with your values or who 518 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,240 you are or you're not, you know, seeking pleasure in a way that 519 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,480 actually feels good to you, that's the time to start doing 520 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,320 some self evaluation. Yeah, also great. 521 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,000 Yeah. It's OK if you want to have sex. 522 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,440 It's OK if you don't want to have sex. 523 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,720 It's OK if you change your mind. All different approaches are 524 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,200 welcome, certainly, and that's the sex positive approach. 525 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,400 I do think in our community there's a perception that people 526 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,760 are having sex all the time or are overly promiscuous. 527 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:15,440 And that perception I do think speaks to what might be 528 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,920 happening internally for that person. 529 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,320 And also comparing yourself to other people, regardless of your 530 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,680 sexuality, is the thief of joy for a reason that people say 531 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,560 that because it is true. You cannot control what other 532 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,080 people do or don't do. This is the let them theory. 533 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,800 This is detachment rebranded. But at the end of the day, we 534 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,880 have to learn to let that go and do what feels in alignment with 535 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,520 ourselves. In the book you talk a lot about 536 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,000 differentiation, which is kind of the process of both self 537 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,640 discovery and discovering preferences with a partner. 538 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,840 Can you talk about that concept a little bit and what that looks 539 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,000 and sounds like? I think this concept is like 540 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,080 crucial for any relationship, gay, straight, queer, whatever, 541 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,560 open, monogamous. This, this concept I think is 542 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:04,920 revolutionary for a lot of people. 543 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,040 So often, you know, when you're in a relationship with somebody 544 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,040 else, you can lose hold of who you are. 545 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,400 The process of differentiation is about being able to hold on 546 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,200 to connection and autonomy at the same time, and to tolerate 547 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,400 the tension that can arise when somebody has different thoughts, 548 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,280 feelings, wishes, desires than you do. 549 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,400 And that is going to happen because in relationships, 550 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,600 differences occur and it's through differences that we 551 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,680 actually learn more about ourselves and through our 552 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,320 partners. And so allowing the space for 553 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,120 that tension to exist and not moving into avoiding it or 554 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:40,000 conflict avoidance or like pushing your way through to 555 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,600 fight through it and get into those angry arguments where no 556 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,640 one feels hurt or understood. But really, staying in the 557 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,280 understanding and curiosity place is what I work with a lot 558 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,200 of people around. I love the concept of 559 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,880 differentiation. It brings me back to my psych 560 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,400 classes in college. Now, obviously the goal is 561 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,960 interdependence. You've got to hold a sense of 562 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,480 self and you need to be able to relate to others in a healthy, 563 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,720 inclusive, compassionate way. We need other people. 564 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480 We are a social species. So it's not one or the other, 565 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,800 it's always both. It's how you hold both. 566 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,640 Differentiation is a reflection of another concept that I 567 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,680 espouse in my work called emotional diversification. 568 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,560 And this is borrowed from the world of finance kind of pie 569 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,160 chart approach, a bit more numerical, quantitative where we 570 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,840 look at, OK, how much time are you spending in this area of 571 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,000 your life versus this area. And then knowing that time and 572 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,360 energy are finite resources, taking some of those investments 573 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,360 and then reallocating them so that the mix is healthier. 574 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,720 And by the way, this is always incremental, so it's not like 575 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,160 you're taking all of the time and energy that you spend with a 576 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,600 partner and then pouring it into everywhere else. 577 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,440 You don't want to neglect your relationship, but you do need to 578 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,440 take some of that time and energy and then reinvest it 579 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,360 elsewhere. And that process is done through 580 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,160 differentiation. Exactly, yeah. 581 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,760 And it is, I think like attachment, it is a muscle that 582 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,280 you can stretch and evolve and develop over the lifetime. 583 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,880 And so I think attachment and I know your work doesn't, doesn't 584 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,760 speak in this way, but sometimes people can get scared about 585 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,440 attachment. Like, oh gosh, I'm, I'm 586 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,520 anxiously attached. I'm going to be this way forever 587 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,040 or I'm avoidantly attached or whatever. 588 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,000 And it's actually through relationships that we heal our 589 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,280 attachment style. You cannot do it on your on your 590 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,840 own. Like it's just impossible. 591 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360 And so whether it's with a coach or a therapist or a partner, 592 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,040 like you have to kind of get into the muck. 593 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,960 And that's what I do with folks in, in the relationship work is 594 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,800 like encourage them to stay in that tension together. 595 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,160 And the tension sometimes is somebody who's more anxiously or 596 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,280 avoidantly attached, but sometimes it's just, there's a 597 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,000 really tough topic that people have been avoiding for whatever 598 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,080 reason. And, and in the queer community, 599 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,400 you know, there's lots of topics that are taboo and sex or 600 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,320 opening the relationship or whatever it may be. 601 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,560 And so being able to actually tolerate that tension and 602 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,800 differentiation comes from the father of family therapy, Mary 603 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,480 Bowen. And he really was was kind of 604 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,480 the first proponent of being able to have family systems stay 605 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,320 in the tension together and really differentiate and allow 606 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,160 people to be individuals inside of a family unit. 607 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,440 Very well said. In the book, you talk a lot 608 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,560 about and provide a lot of anecdotes around what 609 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,480 differentiation looks and sounds like. 610 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,600 There are conversations that of course you've changed the names 611 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,160 of the clients, but generally you know the conversation is 612 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,440 intact. You're talking about how someone 613 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,080 is opening up and how someone is receiving that. 614 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,360 I want to ask you, what has surprised you in your work 615 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,480 dealing with couples? Is there any example of a couple 616 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,400 that was on the brink and was able to come back or that you 617 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,840 thought would make it and then just didn't like what? 618 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,040 What has surprised you in your work? 619 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,160 I think it's always a surprise to me. 620 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,160 I'm not one of those people. And I don't, I don't think it's 621 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,160 possible to really hold yourself as a relational therapist and 622 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,720 say I, I want everyone to stay together or I want to have an 623 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,400 idea of who should stay together and who shouldn't. 624 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,800 Because there are people who decide to stay in relationships 625 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,600 that wouldn't work for me, but they work enough for them or, 626 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,600 you know, vice versa. And so for me, what, what is 627 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,960 heartwarming is when I see especially Game 2, like 2 gay 628 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,440 men who they didn't have the support, it's clear they didn't 629 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,160 have the parental support growing up. 630 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,720 It's clear that nobody really taught them the ways to 631 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,520 differentiate and be in relationship with somebody else. 632 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,120 And to see them take those incremental risks with each 633 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880 other in the office and then start sharing more. 634 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,680 And then their relationship shifts in ways that I don't 635 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,920 think they even imagined possible when they first started 636 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,880 seeing me. And those are the people that I, 637 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,400 I love to work with because it's, you know, so, so many of 638 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,720 us have not been scaffolded enough and, and encouraged in 639 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,560 enough to stay with a relationship. 640 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,840 A lot of people will sometimes just leave a relationship if 641 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,360 it's not working for them in that moment. 642 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,880 But actually, I always say to folks, when we're first starting 643 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,800 out, whether this relationship works out or it doesn't, there 644 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,320 is no way you're not going to learn more about yourself in 645 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,840 this process. And learning more about yourself 646 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,560 is a gift that you can't possibly put a monetary or a 647 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,920 time value on. Because whether it's this 648 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,480 relationship or the next one, you're going to shift the way 649 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,840 that you show up and attach and connect with other people in 650 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,120 your life. Sometimes leaving the 651 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,960 relationship, is it working out for you? 652 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,520 And I think it's important to say that I've said it in various 653 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,400 ways in the show so far, but it can also be an act of love to 654 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,080 release someone if you know that you can't show up in the ways 655 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,120 that they need. And that is an act of 656 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,160 unconditional love, surrendering, releasing them to 657 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,080 find someone who can show up in the ways that they're hoping for 658 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,800 and who can accept them and work with them in the ways that they 659 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,200 need. Now, there's always fundamental 660 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,640 differences in a relationship that might not get resolved. 661 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,280 They don't have to be solved necessarily, but they need to be 662 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,040 respected. And there has to be empathy in 663 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,160 approaching that. And that process, of course, can 664 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,120 be found through differentiating and through having tough 665 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,440 conversations. Now, my anxiously attaching 666 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,760 audience, I can already hear them in my head saying I don't 667 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,400 want to have the conversation. I'm scared the other person is 668 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,880 going to leave me. I'm too much. 669 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,520 I don't want to be a burden. I don't want to be perceived as 670 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,679 needy. These are all things that you 671 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:33,639 know, and I know anxious attachers or those leaning 672 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,880 anxiously attached struggle with. 673 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,480 What do you have to say to those people? 674 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,719 That is where building the muscle around attachment, the 675 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,080 rubber really meets the road in that regard. 676 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,679 And so when I'm working with a couple and that's showing up 677 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,480 because it will show up, you know, even though I'm 678 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,000 encouraging them to take these risks and differentiate, I can 679 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,159 tell, especially for people who are more in the anxious side 680 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,560 that it's going to be hard. I meet with them individually. 681 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,160 I work with them so that they can trust themselves. 682 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,440 And then it really is about your attachment relationship with 683 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,160 yourself and knowing that you are worth actually taking that 684 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,480 risk and getting to the point where you're secure enough with 685 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,160 yourself that if this person isn't going to actually be OK 686 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,960 with what you want and desire, they're probably not the right 687 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,200 person for you. But that is a journey. 688 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,880 And so the people who are more on the anxious side of things 689 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,840 right now are going to hear me saying that and say, oh, I could 690 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,120 never say that or that, you know, that that feels really out 691 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,760 of reach. It may right now, but it doesn't 692 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,200 have to forever. Find someone who you feel safe 693 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,680 with and practice with them. If you need to do it in the 694 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,240 mirror, you can do it in the mirror. 695 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,240 I've had clients do this. I've had them record voice 696 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,800 notes, talking to themselves in the mirror, setting a boundary 697 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,640 or opening up to their partner. Then we review that and we edit 698 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,240 it down until you get to the point. 699 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:51,360 Many people on the anxious side of things are people pleasers, 700 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,360 which means they over explain. So getting to the crux of what 701 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,480 actually is happening for you and what you need in response to 702 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,280 that is really, really important. 703 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520 And that muscle is built through that practice. 704 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,960 As I remind folks all the time, you got to get in the reps If 705 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,840 you want to rewire your brain. The brain learns through 706 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,960 repetition. It rewires that way. 707 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,360 So you got to get in the reps emotionally to do this. 708 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,640 I want to speak to single gay men out there. 709 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,920 Being one myself, you'll also be speaking to me. 710 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,440 What do you have in the ways of hope to offer inspiration, Hope 711 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:34,000 to give to single gay men who feel that there's not enough 712 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:39,760 options, Scarcity mindset, who might live in smaller cities. 713 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,560 Maybe they're not in a New York or San Francisco or DC or 714 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,880 Chicago or LA or Dallas. I'm in Charleston, SC so this 715 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,680 definitely resonates with me. How do you meet like minded 716 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,440 people not at bars? And for those who might want a 717 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,320 monogamous partnership and who might look around and see a lot 718 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,240 of non monogamy around them, what kind of hope and 719 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:08,240 inspiration do you have to offer to folks like that? 720 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,960 Well, starting with the monogamy, non monogamy thing, we 721 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,480 know 50% of gay couples are, most are in monogamous 722 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,240 relationships. It is possible. 723 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,400 There's a lot of people out there, you know, it's, it's 724 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,400 about 5050, you know, depending on the study that you look at. 725 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,920 We need more studies. We need more research on gay 726 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,520 relationships. And then moving to the piece 727 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,800 about really connecting and finding folks. 728 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,400 For me personally, it's like use the apps for what they're 729 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,200 intended for. They're intended for 730 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,440 introduction and then get off of them as quickly as possible. 731 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,960 You know, find somebody that that you connect with and get 732 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,960 into real life as soon as possible, because oftentimes the 733 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,760 way somebody presents themselves online and many people will 734 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,640 resonate with this. I'm sure they don't look like 735 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,240 their picture or they look better or you know, their energy 736 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,160 and their connection. You know, you connect better 737 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,200 actually in person. And so do it sooner rather than 738 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,800 later and try to go with your the things that you love to do. 739 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,680 I love to do theater. So, you know, joining a 740 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,840 community theater or connecting to the the gay men's chorus, if 741 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,560 you happen to live in a city that has that that kind of 742 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,040 opportunity or gay sports league, like go with your 743 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,320 interests. That way. 744 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,680 If you don't meet somebody that you connect with romantically, 745 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,880 you're still going to have a good time. 746 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,080 You're going to build a community. 747 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,360 You know, there's, there's lots of ways to get out of the bars 748 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,920 and get out of the apps and there are people just like you 749 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,400 looking to connect and it is possible. 750 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,720 But so often what I end up working with people who are 751 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:30,840 single around this with is like expanding their view of what 752 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,320 they're looking for in a relationship. 753 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,280 Because so often we have this like list of all of these 754 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,400 criteria of what we're looking for in a partner. 755 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,400 The list, yes, yeah. The list, and sometimes the list 756 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,440 are that they're really important things that are deal 757 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,840 Breakers and value based and sometimes they're not, you know, 758 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,560 and so really getting honest with yourself if you're looking 759 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,800 to connect with somebody, what is getting in the way of you 760 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,680 actually doing that? Very well said. 761 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,640 It always starts with you, and getting to know yourself and 762 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,560 what you value is incredibly important For me and my work. 763 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,160 I teach people that that's the compass. 764 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,320 That's the true north that we need to reorient back to because 765 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,960 as anxious attachers are those leaning that way, typically 766 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,080 we've looked to those around us and we've been heavily 767 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,360 influenced by how they feel, what they need, and bringing 768 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,120 that focus back to ourselves is really important. 769 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,040 So like Tom said, start with you. 770 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,880 Start with what you care about, what you're passionate about. 771 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,760 And if you don't know that, start with your curiosity. 772 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,360 What are you interested in exploring? 773 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,840 Is it a cooking class? Is it a pottery or ceramics 774 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,920 class? Is it doing vocal lessons? 775 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,520 Is it going to karaoke If you don't have a gay men's chorus or 776 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,000 there aren't gay sports leagues where you live, which there's 777 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,040 not where I live. But if you don't, start with 778 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,880 what you're interested in and remember that meeting other 779 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,200 people who maybe aren't even in our community can help too. 780 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,320 Just like when you're approaching finding a job and 781 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,800 you're trying to network your way into that job, you're only 782 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,080 going to get so far with your first and second degree 783 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,320 connections. It's your third and 4th degree 784 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,000 connections which you do not currently have access to. 785 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,600 That are going to be really powerful for you and that means 786 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,560 you're going to need to get out of your immediate environment 787 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,160 and get out of your house and off of your phone and into real 788 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,200 life to do that and to connect with others as well. 789 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,360 And like you were just saying earlier, if you live in a place 790 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,440 where there's not a lot of gay folks or queer folks, do a 791 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,800 travel experiment. Like there's lots of actual 792 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,040 travel groups around the world where you can travel with a 793 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,120 group of other. Like I just recently my partner 794 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,040 and I did a scuba trip with a bunch of gay men and from around 795 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,320 the world. And it was really fun. 796 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,400 And so, you know, we got to connect with different people 797 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,240 and that was again, following an interest. 798 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,000 And so if you have the resources and and the opportunity, there's 799 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,400 lots of different ways to get out there. 800 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,560 You just got to keep putting yourself out there, keep getting 801 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,760 back on that horse. Yes, absolutely. 802 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,520 Anything else on the front of empowerment or feeling more 803 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,400 secure in dating as a gay man, or even just in general that you 804 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,760 want to share? Think the self compassion piece 805 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,120 is really important. So whether you feel like you're 806 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,120 more anxious or more avoidant or disorganized or whatever, it is 807 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,440 like just being compassionate with yourself around that it's 808 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,000 not your fault and you know you can grow through it. 809 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,160 I'm not going to pretend it's not going to be difficult or 810 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,640 painful or it's not going to take some effort, but like, 811 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,600 you're worth it. I think so often the commute, 812 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,360 the messages that we get as, as gay and queer folks is that 813 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,640 there's something wrong with us or we're not worth it or, you 814 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,000 know, we're damaged in some way. Again, not everybody. 815 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,200 This is there. There's a lot of queer joy and 816 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,080 resistance out there, but connect into that, like follow 817 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,440 people on social media. If you're doing that, that, that 818 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,760 celebrate queer and gay joy and connect to the amazing aspects 819 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,640 of being gay. I mean, I, I wouldn't change 820 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,280 being gay for anything at this point in my life, but it's, it's 821 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,640 because I feel like I'm fully myself and I'm connected to 822 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,440 other people who are fully themselves. 823 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200 And we don't only have to look at the death, the difficult 824 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,520 aspects of being gay or queer. We can actually also embrace the 825 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,320 queer joy as a form of. That's one of the reasons why 826 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,840 Shits Creek was so powerful for me, I think is it was one of the 827 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,800 first shows that didn't have someone dying of AIDS, that 828 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,960 didn't have this massive relational struggle where one 829 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,160 person was chasing the other. And there was this dance, this 830 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,080 anxious avoidant dynamic, this push pull trauma bond that many 831 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,240 of us do tend to recreate in our adult relationships. 832 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,920 It was a person, Patrick, who came out and it wasn't a big 833 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,120 deal. And he was able to form a new 834 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,200 relationship in a healthy way with David, who had been through 835 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,840 the ringer. And that really resonated with 836 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,520 me at a deep level. And one of the reasons why I 837 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,600 think it resonated with so many people generally, at least in 838 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,120 our community, you know, it's there's so many amazing aspects 839 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,600 to that show just generally. But I think from a queer 840 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,640 standpoint, that was really impactful for me to see. 841 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,920 That and somebody somewhere is also another one. 842 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,320 I don't know if you've seen that, but it is another one. 843 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,880 It's it's, it's based in a small town in Kansas and it's a queer 844 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,760 community and they're just existing and living life and 845 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,400 it's, it is so joy filled and beautiful and queer. 846 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,680 And it's another one I really I recommend folks view. 847 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,040 I just wrote that down. I'm definitely gonna look into 848 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,360 that. You know, I remember sitting and 849 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,480 watching Call Me by Your name, the movie and being I never read 850 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,640 the book and just going into a blind and thinking, Oh no, Oh 851 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,480 no. When they start traveling 852 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,960 together and spoiler alert if you haven't seen the movie, but 853 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,000 you know, I was expecting, oh God, he's gonna die. 854 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,680 Like, you know, there's that expectation of grief that so 855 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,920 many of us have in our community and maybe even carry with us 856 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,120 because of the generational trauma of the AIDS pandemic. 857 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,440 But that said, you know, I think also seeking out healthy role 858 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,120 models, which many of us have lacked, as you say in the book 859 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,800 and have said today, is really empowering. 860 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,960 It can help to write over some of that programming inside that 861 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,760 makes you anticipate someone leaving or someone dying, God 862 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,680 forbid, or they're just generally having to be drama or 863 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,240 trauma that defines relationships. 864 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,560 It doesn't have to be that way, folks. 865 00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:26,400 It doesn't. There is another quote that I 866 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,240 wanted to bring up and I don't have any question to ask with 867 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,120 this, but I just wanted to share it with folks because it really 868 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,640 resonated with me. Especially on the note of 869 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,880 talking about media. You say on page 177, we have 870 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,080 been taught through media and ROM coms that we want someone 871 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,320 who will be able to read our minds and anticipate our every 872 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,080 need. In reality, that's not realistic 873 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,160 to expect from our adult attachment relationships. 874 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,320 The fantasy of having someone in our lives who can anticipate our 875 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,440 every need is better reserved for infant and caregiver 876 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,120 relationships. If you didn't have that kind of 877 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,320 nurturing from your caregivers growing up, as many of us 878 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,320 didn't, that's work for therapy, not your adult relationships. 879 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,400 What do you have to say to that? Yeah, I mean, I, I stand by that 880 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,960 100%. And and so often people, so many 881 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,080 couples are coming to mind as, as I'm thinking about this right 882 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,800 now, who I work with in the office, who they are pulling for 883 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,640 that. They're pulling for healing and 884 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,880 again, not pathologizing that. There's nothing wrong with that. 885 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,640 You didn't get that as a child and you deserved it. 886 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,720 And if you keep pulling for it from romantic figures in your 887 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:43,920 life, you're going to continue to be hurt. 888 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,680 It's going to be just more disappointment. 889 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:49,040 And so being willing to do the effort and kind of do some 890 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,920 healing around that yourself. It's, it's a gift that I'm so 891 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,320 grateful I gave myself. And it's, it's something that I 892 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,720 I see people time and time again grow through some of these 893 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,600 attachment wounds and live lives that they couldn't even think 894 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,240 possible before they started that journey. 895 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,920 The irony. Is when you kind of level set 896 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,080 your expectations relationally and learn to take better care of 897 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,400 yourself and to differentiate away and diversify away from 898 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,120 your romantic partnership. You will actually usually find 899 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,920 that that partner will lean back in and creating the space for 900 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,720 them to show up authentically is really important. 901 00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:33,800 But when you haven't addressed your shit, you will expect other 902 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,840 people to do for you what you're not doing for yourself. 903 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:43,400 And in particular, we will look to a romantic partner to try to 904 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,200 fill the void that somebody else left behind. 905 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,320 Of course, that void does not really exist. 906 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,240 It is a misinterpretation of a traumatic experience that 907 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,520 there's something wrong with you because of how you were treated. 908 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,040 But that said, it is also incredibly invalidating for the 909 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,480 other person because you're not seeing them for who they are. 910 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,520 You're seeing them for who you expect them to be in order to 911 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,080 fit the mold that is most comfortable for you. 912 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,840 And fitting into a mold is not the goal of having a partner. 913 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,080 That is a project. You don't want a project, you 914 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,960 want a partner. One of the interventions I do so 915 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,960 often early with couples is have people put their hand on their 916 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,960 heart and just say it's not about me. 917 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,760 You know, what the other person is sharing right now. 918 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,440 It's about them and really differentiating and allowing 919 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,680 that space, which you know, does take time and it's a, it's an 920 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,720 ongoing lifelong process. It really is, yes, and I love 921 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,960 the hand on the heart trick and saying that it's not about me. 922 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,600 I can see people at home doing that already. 923 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,200 I want to bring up one final topic from the book, which is 924 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,920 about two different relationship dynamics that you name. 925 00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,960 You talk about how there are roommate relationships and 926 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,720 reality show relationships. I think you actually call it 927 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,960 reality TV relationships. So talk to me. 928 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,960 Talk to us about the differences between them and why it's 929 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,800 important to identify those two in particular. 930 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,280 So a lot of times people will come in to see me in that, that 931 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,480 stage of the relationships where the differences are really 932 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,440 starting to surface and they're starting to differentiate or one 933 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,840 person starting to differentiate. 934 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,160 And if, if differentiation is not happening in a relationship, 935 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,920 that's when you can fall into one of those two camps. 936 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,320 And the roommate relationships are people who really avoid 937 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,960 conflict at all costs. And so they're going to, you 938 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,480 know, sit on, sweep things under the rug, you know, very 939 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,560 Midwestern folks, You know, that's the, you know, avoiding 940 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,600 conflict at all costs. Yeah, just be either. 941 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,720 Stop there. Pretend it's not there, which 942 00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:50,360 doesn't work, right? We know that doesn't work. 943 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,960 That ends up building up resentment. 944 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,480 And then you're more likely to have less sex. 945 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,120 You're more likely to have people who are going out and 946 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:58,960 seeking affairs. I mean, it kind of happens more 947 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,160 in that in that bucket of folks other the other bucket of folks, 948 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,200 the reality show relationships that those are the more, you 949 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,920 know, angry fighting couples who they can't live with each other. 950 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,200 They can't live without each other. 951 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,000 And you see them fighting all the time. 952 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,280 They'll go to a nice dinner and they'll fight and then they'll 953 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,520 make up and then they'll go on vacation and they'll fight. 954 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,360 And that is another way of trying to address the 955 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,680 differences, but in unconstructive ways. 956 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,840 And so those folks that the work for them is to be able to just 957 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,200 slow down and understand and listen for understanding and not 958 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,600 try to solve any problems or anything like that, but just 959 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,920 really be present and curious with their partners. 960 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,680 The more conflict avoided folks, the goal for them is to take 961 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,080 those risks and bring, bring the conflict into the room. 962 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,000 And it's it's risk. It feels risky in both senses 963 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,880 because these, the people that you're in relationships with are 964 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,400 the most important people in your life at one point. 965 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,560 I love your idea of diversification there. 966 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,480 That is such a healthy kind of differentiating concept to 967 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,280 really allow there to be more people at your table who can 968 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,080 fill fill your cup and fill your heart. 969 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,680 Thank you. Yeah, we're a tribal species, 970 00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:02,680 y'all, If you're listening to this or watching this, we're not 971 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,320 in a cave anymore, but our body is still programmed. 972 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,080 Our nervous system is still wired evolutionarily to need 973 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,800 other people, so it's important to make sure that you surround 974 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,520 yourself with folks that you feel safe with. 975 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,560 And if you lack that safety or perceive to lack that safety in 976 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,560 your romantic relationship, you've got to seek it out 977 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,040 elsewhere. And if you don't have it 978 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,960 anywhere in your life, hire a professional that you feel 979 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,560 really gets you, like Tom or myself or both, because therapy 980 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,120 and coaching are different approaches. 981 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,520 I work with both consistently and I feel supported in 982 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,560 different ways in each environment. 983 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,160 And each practitioner is different. 984 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,440 So just make sure that you are authentic and how you're showing 985 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,480 up when you're looking for a mental health practitioner and 986 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,400 that you're asking the tough questions. 987 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,600 How do you address this? What's your approach to this? 988 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,800 You know, it's kind of like dating in a way. 989 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,280 You've got to find someone that you feel really gets you, and 990 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,800 that can even be practice for other environments as well. 991 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,000 Exactly. Tom, I just want to say this has 992 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,560 been an absolute pleasure before. 993 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,760 We give folks a way to find you and resources that you might 994 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,880 have for them. Any other final notes that you 995 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,960 wanted to share regarding queer relationships? 996 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,480 Whether you're in our community and single or in a relationship 997 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:25,120 or outside of our community, just learning about some of 998 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,200 these nuances. Yeah, I think, I think if 999 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,720 you're, if you are a queer person or you're not a queer 1000 00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:34,320 person or you're an ally, like we've talked a lot today about 1001 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,600 queer trauma. And I think it's really 1002 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,200 important, especially right now as there are more laws that are 1003 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,560 anti trans on the books across the country than ever before 1004 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,240 that we are also leaning into the queer joy and and queer 1005 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,120 queer joy is a way of resistance. 1006 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,480 And so it is not doom and gloom and loneliness to be a queer 1007 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,200 person. There's lots of beauty there. 1008 00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:56,680 And so I just, I just think it's important to balance. 1009 00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,200 That, as I remind folks all the time, you're not healing to 1010 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,360 better manage trauma, you're healing to better hold joy. 1011 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,240 And that message resonates with that as well. 1012 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,800 Tom, how can my viewers and listeners find you? 1013 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,600 I am on Instagram and YouTube and lots of different places 1014 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,080 with queer relationship Institute is the handle for 1015 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,000 that. And then on my website if, if 1016 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,480 folks are interested a queerrelationshipinstitute.com. 1017 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,240 There's a bunch of free resources there. 1018 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:28,080 So there are discussion cards for gay men that people can 1019 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,840 download for free and there's a free mini communication course 1020 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,320 that people can download with with some video lessons. 1021 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,720 And then I, and so if you're a therapist or a coach listening 1022 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:38,800 to this, I also have some free resources for those folks as 1023 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,640 well. So I love to kind of give people 1024 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,720 resources as often as I can. Fabulous. 1025 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:45,880 I love those conversation cards. I'm definitely going to check 1026 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,560 those out. And again, that's queer 1027 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:52,160 relationshipinstitute.com. And again, Tom wrote a book, the 1028 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,400 go to relationship guide for gay men. 1029 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,960 My camera is blurring it out here, but this is what the cover 1030 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,080 looks like. And where can folks find your 1031 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,440 book? It is on Amazon. 1032 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,240 You can get it from the publisher, Jessica Kingsley, 1033 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:05,760 publishingbookshop.org. Anywhere where you get your 1034 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,320 books, you'll be able to get it. Kindle. 1035 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,240 It's all those places. Tom, thanks again for coming on 1036 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,200 the show and happy Pride Month. You as well. 1037 00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:13,720 Thanks, Chris.