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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to Needy No More, the podcast 

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dedicated to healing the anxious
attachment style. 

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I'm your host, anxious 
attachment style coach and 

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author Chris Ratcliffe. 
I've helped thousands of people 

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across 6 continents to end the 
cycle of anxious attachment 

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through my books, workshops, 
digital downloads, and coaching 

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program. 
I'm honored to carry on that 

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mission here, sharing tools and 
techniques, principles and 

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practices for you to explore on 
your journey to growing more 

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secure. 
Welcome back everyone. 

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I am very excited to welcome our
second ever guest, Ricky Clues, 

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who is a relationship writer. 
You might also be familiar with 

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her from her Instagram account 
at Anxious Hearts Guide. 

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She's also the Co host of the 
podcast Ricky and Jimmy on 

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Relationships. 
She's an expert in attachment 

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styles, posts a lot of really 
helpful content and it is my 

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distinct pleasure to welcome you
on the show. 

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Ricky, thanks for being here. 
Yeah, Thank you so much, Chris. 

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I had no idea I was your second 
guest. 

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This feels like a like a special
privilege. 

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I like it. 
Well, thank you. 

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Well, I appreciate you carving 
out the time. 

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You're one of my absolute 
favorite people in the 

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attachment space to follow. 
You and I have been in contact 

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for several years and this feels
like just an opportunity to chat

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with a friend who cares about 
attachment theory too. 

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It does. 
I think our missions are well 

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aligned to everything. 
Everything that you post that I 

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see, I'm always like, I like 
that guy. 

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He gets it. 
Thank you. 

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I appreciate that. 
I wanted to open up our 

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conversation just by asking you 
a very simple question, which is

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how did you get into this stuff?
Yeah. 

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When did you find attachment 
theory and why did it resonate 

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with you? 
Yeah, that's such a good place 

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to start to set the scene. 
I'm like 3233 and my marriage 

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was falling apart. 
I'd been with my with him for 12

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years, which is a, which is a 
while that's quite a haul. 

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And it, it was OK in the 
beginning, but then it just 

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gradually went downhill and I 
didn't know why. 

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And then by the time everything 
kind of went up in smoke, I had 

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really started digging into the 
psychology textbooks because 

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that's the type of person I am. 
When stuff starts to hit the 

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fan, I like to figure out why. 
So I've been doing a lot of 

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reading and I kind of just 
stumbled across attachment 

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theory. 
This was, I don't know, 

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20/16/2017. 
So it wasn't such a it wasn't 

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such a popular topic as it is 
now. 

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I think attached had had not 
been out too long, but I got my 

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hands on that book and then many
others, mostly dry psychology 

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textbooks, because it wasn't a 
market full of popular reading 

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on that topic. 
I was like, this is me, This is 

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my relationship, and this is 
this is what's happening to us. 

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Unfortunately, the book 
attached, although I really 

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liked it, was pretty hard on 
avoidant attachment. 

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The author, Levine, he's come 
out to say too, that he wishes 

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he would have written it 
differently because it really 

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doesn't paint avoidant 
attachment very hopefully. 

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And I have to say it's one of 
the reasons that I decided to 

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leave my marriage because that 
book didn't give me any hope 

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that we could fix what was going
on. 

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I recognized myself as 
incredibly anxiously attached 

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and my my now ex-husband as 
incredibly avoidantly attached. 

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And we would sit in marriage 
counseling just saying, hey, 

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we've identified the problem and
we're not compatible. 

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So this is over. 
And that's where my journey 

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started. 
We split up and I realized that 

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if I if I didn't fix or at least
address my anxious tendencies 

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and thoughts, I was going to 
find myself right back in that 

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pattern. 
I was going to chase away the 

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healthy, secure partners that I 
was hoping to attract. 

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So that's where it all started. 
I really just threw everything 

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in the kitchen sink at my 
attachment issues. 

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Slowly, little by little, they 
got better. 

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And then things started feeling 
really easy in love. 

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And I thought I'm a writer, so I
thought, I want to tell people 

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about this. 
Instagram and my book were my 

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were my way of talking to the 
world about it. 

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I didn't want anybody else to 
feel like I did or go through 

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what I did. 
So that's, that's how my mission

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started. 
I think yours is pretty similar,

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right? 
It is, yes. 

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I was just going to say that, 
you know, there's so many 

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similarities between our 
journeys here. 

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It's, it is uncanny. 
It's very interesting. 

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I think there's also a 
universality to it, right, that 

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makes attachment theory so 
relatable and so helpful for 

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many people. 
There's this moment of discovery

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where you kind of find out that,
OK, the way I'm showing up in my

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relationships, this is a thing 
like this has been studied, it 

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is a known phenomenon that has a
label. 

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And I'm not the only one who 
struggles like this totally. 

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And even. 
Regardless of. 

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We can do something about it, 
you know. 

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I mean, that's the best part. 
It's not just like, oh, I've got

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this disorder that I'll always 
have trouble with. 

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It's like, it's not a disorder 
at all. 

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It's a pattern of behaviors that
we can change not to totally 

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interrupt. 
But you know, this is my 

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favorite topic, just like you. 
Wonderfully said, Yeah, it's not

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static. 
It's not fixed. 

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You can always evolve to a more 
secure place, to the more secure

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side of the attachment spectrum.
And that's the hope that it 

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sounds like you were also kind 
of missing when you were looking

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to resolve the differences in 
your marriage. 

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I talk to people all day long 
all around the world about 

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attachment theory. 
And I've coached folks across 

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the world and one of the most 
persistent themes or things that

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I hear from folks is I never 
want to date another avoidance. 

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I know I'm always so sad when I 
hear that. 

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Yeah, keep going on that. 
Yeah. 

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What do you, how do I, how do 
you respond to that? 

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I know how I respond to it and 
it's I hope it's similar to how.

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You I told them to look at the 
person and not the label. 

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Yeah, that's. 
Because good. 

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Advice. 
Look, not all Christians are the

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same. 
Not all Democrats are the same 

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or Republicans are the same. 
Like when you stereotype people 

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and you put folks who might have
similar qualities, yeah, into a 

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bucket and then judge them. 
Yeah, it's dehumanizing. 

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And it's using labels in a 
really, really limiting way, 

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because humans are complex and 
highly nuanced and we don't 

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always fit into neat, tidy 
boxes. 

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Absolutely. 
And so that's why I encourage 

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folks to look for someone who is
self aware, someone who is 

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willing to put in the effort to 
grow the relationship, who has 

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at least some skills when it 
comes to effective communication

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and conflict resolution and 
repair. 

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No one's going to do this stuff 
perfectly. 

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Even the most secure people 
struggle with insecurities and 

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might have avoidant tendencies 
from time to time, so it's 

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really limiting to just throw 
out an entire category of people

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because they've identified with 
a label that says that they are 

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avoidant. 
Really well said. 

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I think another important thing,
this is something that I was 

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missing in the beginning of my 
journey too, was that when we 

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spend all of our time pointing 
at the other person, what's 

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wrong with them, we're missing 
all the ways that we are 

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actually like enabling that 
dynamic in our own relationship.

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I, of course, I started off 
dating post divorcing. 

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No more avoidance. 
I'm going to avoid the 

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avoidance. 
You know, you can almost make 

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that a bumper sticker. 
And that attitude, it gave me 0 

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awareness about how I was kind 
of perpetuating that in anybody 

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that I would find I could make 
secure men avoidant with my 

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behavior. 
And I didn't realize that 

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either. 
So that's one of the biggest 

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things I try to tell my audience
when they try to bash the 

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avoidances. 
Hey, when when we're spending 

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too much time focusing on what 
other people are doing wrong, we

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are not looking at our own 
contributions to this. 

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And that can, that can, you 
know, it can taint even super 

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healthy relationships that we 
find or not super healthy 

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relationships, but it can, it 
can flavor our interactions with

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no, with anybody that we find, 
no matter what their attachment 

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style. 100% yes, Amen to that. 
The goal is always to grow more 

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secure. 
It's not just to find someone 

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secure because you can repeat 
patterns with similar people. 

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You repeat what you don't 
repair. 

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And yes, other people do respond
to our energy. 

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That's what a dynamic is. 
You're responding to their 

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energy, they're responding to 
yours. 

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And that's also why there's hope
here for folks listening or 

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watching who might be in this 
kind of anxious avoidant 

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relationship or dynamic. 
Because when one person shifts 

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their approach, it provides for 
the opportunity for the dynamic 

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to shift. 
It doesn't guarantee it. 

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It's also not about outcomes, 
right? 

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It does help when you can show 
up from a more secure place, 

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when you can own and embody who 
you are and what you need. 

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People respond a lot better to 
that. 

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They do, even. 
That's a big focus of your 

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content too. 
It is. 

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It's a huge focus because this 
was such a good segue into I was

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going to say the the most 
exciting person that I met post 

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divorce was now my current 
husband, Chris. 

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It's funny, his name is also 
Chris. 

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And he, he was about as avoidant
as you could possibly be. 

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Like a jerk. 
I made him take the test because

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that's who I was back in the 
day. 

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I made him take the attachment 
test and he scored all the way 

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on the end of the avoidance 
spectrum. 

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And I thought, oh boy, I've got 
my work cut out for me, you 

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know, like. 
This is. 

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Did that freak you out? 
It did. 

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It did freak me out, but like 
any good anxious attacher, I 

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couldn't quit him because he was
just so you know that it's, it's

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a, it's almost magnetic the way 
those two get pulled together, 

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those two sides. 
I, I really thought, I'm not 

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ready to let this one go. 
I'm just going to work really 

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hard on my side of things and 
see how that works because I 

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wasn't, I wasn't crazy enough to
try to convince him to dive deep

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into this with me. 
Thank goodness I didn't do that.

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That would have pushed him away.
But I gotta say, it was maybe 

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just like a year of really 
intensely working on my own side

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of things. 
And I gotta tell him, Chris, 

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he's incredibly secure now. 
And that's not him diving in and

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reading every book. 
I think that our own security 

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can really pull our partner up 
to our level if we're if we're 

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really rock solid in it. 
I believe that wholeheartedly, 

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too. 
Talk to me about how you found 

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that security for yourself. 
Yeah, I think that's a big focus

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of your first book. 
Right, it is. 

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It is, yes. 
Anxious hearts guide. 

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Yes, the anxious hearts guide, 
my first book, I was still like 

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largely single while I wrote it.
And so thank goodness I had I 

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had complete self focus on that 
one, which I think is a great 

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place to start for anxious 
attachers. 

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It should start with us. 
You know, I identified a bunch 

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of really key things that were 
holding me back. 

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Maybe, maybe one of the biggest 
ones was I had an incredibly 

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negative inner monologue. 
You know, myself dialogue with 

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myself was awful. 
I was not my own best self 

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advocate. 
I was I was the angry voice 

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inside me that was shaming me 
for everything I did. 

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That held me back a lot until I,
I want to say Kristin Neff is my

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favorite author on self 
compassion and learning to be 

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more self compassionate with 
yourself, that inner voice so 

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that you're not going, ah, 
you're so dumb for doing that. 

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You know those terrible things 
that everybody says to 

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themselves. 
My inner voice is super kind. 

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Now that doesn't mean I'm always
100% of the time super kind, but

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the vast majority of the time 
I've got like a really gentle 

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inner voice that's saying that 
sucked. 

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I didn't like that at all, but 
I'm going to here's what I'm 

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going to do differently and 
here's why it's understandable 

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that you made that mistake when 
you're not beating yourself up 

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for your mistakes and it really 
helps get you through all the 

229
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,880
other steps toward security. 
So I want to say that's that's a

230
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,560
great place to start is working 
on that inner voice because the 

231
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:54,200
other things that I needed to 
do, which were getting myself 

232
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out of the house alone, you 
know, not depending on somebody 

233
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,440
else, like a partner or a love 
interest to make my day special 

234
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,160
and wonderful. 
I needed I needed an inner 

235
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,520
cheerleader to be able to help 
me through that because it was 

236
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,120
kind of scary in the beginning. 
I mean, scary's sounds extreme, 

237
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,600
but it was the right word. 
The idea of leaving my house and

238
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,440
going to eat at a restaurant 
alone or go to the rock climbing

239
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,760
gym and have people see me walk 
in single, you know, that kind 

240
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,720
of stuff legitimately freaked me
out in the beginning. 

241
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,280
So having that kind inner voice 
going, you can do this. 

242
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,800
This is the thing that we're 
working toward and good job just

243
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,720
getting out of the house. 
Even if you didn't make it all 

244
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,840
the way to the gym today, that 
that was immensely helpful. 

245
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,200
Look, they call it 
self-conscious for a reason. 

246
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,240
When your consciousness is 
directed in such an intense way,

247
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:50,040
internally it feels like you've 
got the light of all of your 

248
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,200
attention on yourself. 
It's a lot of pressure and 

249
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,320
anxious attachers are some of 
the most self deprecating, self 

250
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,520
judge, mental self critical 
people out there. 

251
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,960
And yet we're also some of the 
most empathetic and naturally 

252
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,960
empathic. 
And so we're using some of those

253
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,880
abilities to our own detriment, 
which is really damaging. 

254
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,640
And often times, as I say to 
clients, it is an amalgamation 

255
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,080
of the most critical voices that
we experienced growing up and in

256
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,320
previous relationships. 
So we end up taking the weapons 

257
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,400
of others and using them against
ourselves and then asking 

258
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,640
ourselves, why am I so hurt? 
I mean, you're beating yourself 

259
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,840
up, but that's why you're hurt, 
of course. 

260
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,280
So changing that inner dialogue 
for yourself, was it 

261
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,760
affirmations? 
Was it like journaling? 

262
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,320
How did you bridge that gap for 
yourself? 

263
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,000
Was it just intervening or? 
Yeah, that's a good question. 

264
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,280
I think I was reading several 
different books at the same time

265
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,080
while I was working on that, as 
I do so probably a mixture of 

266
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,640
different techniques. 
I don't love affirmations and 

267
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,880
that's not to say that they 
don't, they're not great for 

268
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,480
other people, but for me, the 
sentences felt really fake. 

269
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,240
So they they didn't do anything 
for me personally because I 

270
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,720
still had that voice going. 
You don't really believe that in

271
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,400
the background. 
So rather than affirmations, I 

272
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,240
think how can I say this, OK, 
here's a good example. 

273
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,680
Like you're lovable wouldn't 
have done anything that wouldn't

274
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,760
have touched me because I didn't
believe it, right? 

275
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:30,520
But I did believe that I, I 
would say you're doing things to

276
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,280
increase your lovability right 
now. 

277
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,680
And that's awesome. 
So I think I was more praising 

278
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,000
my efforts instead of trying to 
tell myself things that I didn't

279
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,440
really believe because I, I did 
believe I was doing things to 

280
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,040
change the situation and I was 
very proud of that. 

281
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,520
So maybe like ultra realistic 
affirmations that. 

282
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,400
Authentic ones. 
Yeah, very authentic, right? 

283
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,960
I didn't say if I didn't believe
it, I didn't say it again 

284
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,760
because I was like, that's not 
going to help me. 

285
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,080
I also worked really hard being 
a writer. 

286
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,000
Journaling comes very easy to 
me. 

287
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,560
So my journal was just rife 
with, if I felt anything 

288
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,600
negative or self deprecating, I 
wrote that down and then I wrote

289
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,440
arguments against it or you 
know, or ways that I could 

290
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,360
address that if it was something
that I, that I did believe. 

291
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,120
So that was very helpful. 
All the journaling about that 

292
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,920
helped me become more aware of 
it in the moment when it was 

293
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,520
happening to me in real life in 
real time. 

294
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,840
So that was super helpful. 
I also made sure to spend extra 

295
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,920
time with the people in my life 
who were just naturally very 

296
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,720
supportive. 
That was so helpful. 

297
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,960
My sister, who's always been one
of my biggest cheerleaders, if I

298
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,600
ever needed a pick me up, I 
could call her and she made me 

299
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,200
feel like a rock star. 
And I have an awesome best 

300
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,480
friend. 
He always knows exactly what to 

301
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,840
say when I'm upset. 
So that helped. 

302
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,360
This may sound cliche, but my 
mom is always a big pick me up. 

303
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,600
She was, I can do no wrong in 
her eyes. 

304
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,200
So that was nice. 
If I really needed to bring in 

305
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,320
the big guns, I'd call my mom. 
So those, those were some of the

306
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,359
things that really changed the 
way that I talk to myself. 

307
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,079
Practice, I know nobody likes to
hear that, but just practicing 

308
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,720
saying, you know, saying 
supportive things, it really 

309
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,440
does. 
You can really rewire that just 

310
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,720
by repetition I think. 
Amen to that. 

311
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,800
Yes, was just going to say that.
Yeah, repetition plus 

312
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,920
consistency. 
That is what rewiring is all 

313
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,839
about. 
That's how the brain learns and 

314
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:29,040
learns to adjust. 
Yeah, it's wiring and it's 

315
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,680
pathways. 
So yes, practice does help. 

316
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,680
You got to put in the motions, 
even if you don't fully 

317
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,840
understand where it's going. 
Absolutely. 

318
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,440
And my favorite part of all that
repetition too, is that speaking

319
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,920
kindly to yourself feels good. 
It's not like it's not like 

320
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,160
dieting where you're like 
constantly thinking about the 

321
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,640
ice cream cone that you can't 
have. 

322
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,520
It's like saying something kind 
to yourself just feels a lot 

323
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,520
better than being hard on 
yourself. 

324
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,040
So I felt like that was actually
a pretty easy 1 to get in a 

325
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,600
habit, get a new habit of. 
It's so relieving. 

326
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,080
I mean, when you're constantly 
beating yourself up, the 

327
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,760
internal dialogue that your 
space internally, it becomes 

328
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,640
defined by conflict and war. 
And yeah, how are you supposed 

329
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,520
to be at peace if you're at war 
with yourself? 

330
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,360
I mean, it's it's really 
difficult to have a sense of 

331
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,400
groundedness, of feeling stable 
when you're constantly berating 

332
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,640
yourself. 
So when you learn to change some

333
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,840
of that dialogue, to maybe 
interrupt it and then replace it

334
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,080
with something more loving, it's
a breath of fresh air. 

335
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:38,600
I always say to people, if the 
way that other people speak to 

336
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,560
you matters, why would it not 
matter how you speak to 

337
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,240
yourself? 
Absolutely. 

338
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,560
And on that note, exactly, by 
speaking to myself kindly, it 

339
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,800
started to really lower my 
tolerance for other people 

340
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,840
speaking negatively to me in a 
big way. 

341
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,680
A big way. 
I can't believe the things that 

342
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,800
I used to let other people say 
to me and I would either believe

343
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,400
or just let roll off my back. 
I don't, I don't do that now. 

344
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,480
And that took a lot of practice,
too, to be able to speak up. 

345
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,800
And you don't have to be angry 
or harsh about it, but just a 

346
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,640
gentle word like, hey, that hurt
or hey, that's not the way I 

347
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,200
want to have a conversation like
this. 

348
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,080
Let's try that again. 
It really. 

349
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,360
Yeah. 
Yeah, it it, it changed. 

350
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,760
It changed all of my 
relationships, not just my 

351
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,560
romantic one, but literally 
everyone I interact with. 

352
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,600
It's different now in the best 
way. 

353
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,040
I love what you said too about 
your support system because one 

354
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,160
of the biggest things I espouse 
in my work is a concept I 

355
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,280
developed called emotional 
diversification. 

356
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,720
Wonderful. 
Yeah, that's in your book. 

357
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,800
Yes, exactly. 
Yes, thank you. 

358
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:48,200
And it's, it's like a pie chart 
approach, right. 

359
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,560
I'm borrowing this from the 
world of finance and investing. 

360
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,600
So it helps I think for the 
logical brain, for people that 

361
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,360
kind of think more that way and 
for us as anxious attachers, we 

362
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:03,680
do tend to live more in the 
logical rational mind versus the

363
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,040
body. 
And so from that perspective, it

364
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,000
just gives like a little visual 
where you can see, OK, right now

365
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,440
I am very over invested in my 
romantic partnership. 

366
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,680
And by the way, it is OK to have
a romantic partner. 

367
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,720
Take up a good amount of your 
time and your energy. 

368
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:28,600
Yeah, I'm glad. 
However, they cannot be your end

369
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,600
all be all. 
They are just a human being. 

370
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,280
There's only so much that they 
can do for you and they're not a

371
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,880
human need fulfilling ATM. 
You can't just go to them and 

372
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,600
take a withdrawal when it's 
convenient for you. 

373
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,600
And here's another thing, what 
if the universe takes them away 

374
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,600
right now? 
I'm saying even if even if 

375
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,720
they're fully 100% in and they 
love you so much and they're not

376
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,880
going anywhere and they like 
spending 100% of their time with

377
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,960
you, the universe can take that 
person away from you. 

378
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,600
And I know that's dark, but it's
real and it is. 

379
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,200
And if if your entire happiness 
in the world hinges on one 

380
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,960
person, and the universe takes 
them away for one reason or 

381
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,960
another, what have you got, you 
know? 

382
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:17,200
What if you had 100% of your 
investments in Tesla? 

383
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,120
Yeah, recently and then watched 
that tank. 

384
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,480
It's This is why this example 
works for people, because it 

385
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,200
helps them to understand it's 
very risky. 

386
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,040
Yeah. 
When you do that, for some 

387
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,640
reason it's easier for people to
understand that with their money

388
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,160
than it is with their feelings 
and their heart. 

389
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,320
But it helps to drive the point 
home, I think. 

390
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,640
Yeah, that's what I do. 
We try to make it accessible and

391
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,080
easy to understand. 
You know, you're very good at 

392
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,880
that too, I think. 
Thank you, thank you. 

393
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240
It's exactly how I feel about 
you. 

394
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:52,120
And every piece of content that 
I see of yours, I'm like, yes, 

395
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:53,400
that's a magic phrase. 
That's a. 

396
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,320
Magic phrase. 
And I love how inclusive and 

397
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,600
also, quite frankly, vulnerable 
you are in your content sharing,

398
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,880
you know, moments of conflict 
that you've had with Chris. 

399
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:09,040
Yeah. 
And talking about how you've 

400
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,760
worked through that. 
Yeah, totally. 

401
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,880
I'm, I'm trying to do that more.
It's scary sharing actual pieces

402
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,680
of yourself on the Internet. 
You know, it's, it's, it's very 

403
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,960
easy to throw out a tool or an 
idea that you get from somebody,

404
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,760
somewhere else, someone or 
somewhere else. 

405
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,320
But throwing out actual examples
from your own real life to the 

406
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,600
faceless Internet masses can be 
a little bit terrifying. 

407
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,120
I do like to do that whenever I 
think there's like a concrete 

408
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,440
take away that somebody might 
might learn something, it might 

409
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:39,840
make their life a little bit 
better. 

410
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,040
Conflict with my I hate even 
calling him my avoidant partner 

411
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,720
because it feels so secure and 
good now. 

412
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,000
But conflict with my partner was
a really terrifying thing early 

413
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,320
on in our relationship, and I 
weirdly almost look forward to 

414
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,280
it now because it seems like we 
always, we always learn 

415
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,600
something new about each other 
in the process of conflict and 

416
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,480
especially afterwards, and it 
brings us closer than before the

417
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,160
conflict happened. 
I know that's not going to be an

418
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,760
easy sell because everybody 
hates conflict so much, but it 

419
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,800
can become something kind of 
weirdly good. 

420
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,040
It's an opportunity, when 
treated appropriately for each 

421
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,200
person within the relationship 
to better learn how to love the 

422
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,520
other person as well as 
themselves a bit better. 

423
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,560
I remind people that conflict is
not the end of the relationship 

424
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,680
because many people equate 
conflict with abandonment. 

425
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:40,200
They observed this growing up 
and they've experienced this 

426
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,440
previously. 
I also think in our dating 

427
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,920
culture today, it's really easy 
to kind of throw people out when

428
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,920
something happens that you don't
like. 

429
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,520
Yeah, and that's the Amazon 
effect in the dating culture, 

430
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,200
too. 
It's like if this product 

431
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,560
doesn't work well for me, I 
could just order another one and

432
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,000
it'll be at my door in less than
a week. 

433
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,000
Yes, People become disposable 
just like things. 

434
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,480
Yeah, I love that phrasing. 
The Amazon effect. 

435
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,120
I haven't heard that yet. 
I don't know. 

436
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,480
I don't. 
Know if I got that somewhere I 

437
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,840
made it up, but that's what it 
reminds me of. 

438
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,240
It's so poignant. 
Yeah. 

439
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,320
It really drives, you know, the 
point home. 

440
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,480
It's really easy to replace 
someone, to dispose of them. 

441
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,160
Yeah. 
When something happens that you 

442
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,040
don't like. 
And yet conflict is the process 

443
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,920
by which the relationship 
becomes safer, more intimate, 

444
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,080
and the connection is actually 
able to deepen. 

445
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,400
And this drives home a really 
important point, which is that 

446
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,240
safe relationships aren't just 
found, they're. 

447
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,920
Yes, they're created, aren't 
they? 

448
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,800
Yes, I love that. 
I wanted it reminds me of any 

449
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,400
time I have a conflict with him 
too. 

450
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,040
I want everybody to know. 
It's not like we sit around 

451
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280
holding hands and we're like, 
this feels so good disagreeing 

452
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,840
with you. 
It feels awful. 

453
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,480
I want people to know that in 
the moment, conflict is not fun 

454
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,120
and it's difficult. 
And it's really like each moment

455
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,560
that I'm in it, I'm like, I wish
this wasn't happening, but we 

456
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,960
still plod through and talk to 
each other and, and figure out 

457
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,000
the difficult things and try to 
use the kind phrases even when 

458
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,520
we're angry. 
That's what it is. 

459
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,120
Really, honestly, I've been 
really feeling a lot of passion 

460
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:24,000
about conflict in this part of 
my life because I feel like 

461
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,040
there's a lot of good stuff to 
be mined from it. 

462
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,880
You know, once you kind of wade 
through the anxious attachment 

463
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,040
and you find yourself in a 
secure relationship, really 

464
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,360
conflict is a, it's a great 
place to find more work if 

465
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,600
that's what you want because 
there's a lot to learn to get 

466
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,840
good at it. 
Well, even taking that 

467
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,480
perspective, that's coming from 
a secure place from an 

468
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,360
attachment standpoint. 
Yeah. 

469
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,280
So you said something earlier 
about, you know, you focused on 

470
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,000
yourself. 
You really worked at growing 

471
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,920
more secure and learning to be 
gentler and more compassionate 

472
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,840
with yourself. 
And that seems like it's not 

473
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:06,600
only translated into helping 
your partner to feel more secure

474
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,640
and to grow more secure himself,
but it's completely altered the 

475
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,480
trajectory of your relationship.
And I would just love to hear 

476
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,520
how that process has unfolded 
because I'm sure it's been messy

477
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,160
and touch and go and start and 
stop and moving in different 

478
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,400
directions. 
Conflict can be really scary for

479
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,120
an anxious attacher and for an 
avoidant too, who is most 

480
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,680
triggered by criticism and 
judgment and pressure. 

481
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:42,040
So how have you and Chris really
navigated this together? 

482
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,560
What do you want people watching
this and listening and people 

483
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,640
reading your second book, which 
is focused on healing the 

484
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,760
anxious avoidant dynamic. 
Yes, anxious and avoiding 

485
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,520
healing the dynamic. 
Yes, by Ricky clues available 

486
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,480
now. 
What do you want people to take 

487
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,120
away from your relationship and 
what you're modeling and from 

488
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,520
what you're putting out there in
your book as well as on 

489
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,160
Instagram at all? 
Yeah, I think the biggest thing 

490
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,640
is that there's just a massive 
amount of hope for relationships

491
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,680
like this. 
That's what I didn't have when I

492
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,320
left my marriage, and that's 
what I kind of had in spades 

493
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,960
once I met Chris. 
And I had an inkling that things

494
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,800
could be different and better if
if we change the dynamic, right?

495
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,240
And that's all it took was just 
that little, just that little 

496
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,800
seed of hope. 
And it doesn't mean that we had 

497
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,200
a great time of it. 
I mean, as long as we're talking

498
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,160
about vulnerability, Chris and I
broke up 8 times in the very 

499
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,600
beginning of our relationship, 
which is a massive amount of 

500
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,520
breakups. 
I know we were, we started 

501
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,720
keeping track. 
It started getting funny because

502
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,640
it was happening so often. 
We were the classic anxious and 

503
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,680
avoidant couple. 
I would cling and he would run. 

504
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,880
And sometimes if our if our 
conflict or clinging or running 

505
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,760
got bad enough, I would pull the
plug. 

506
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,840
Six of the breakups were mine 
and I would go, but this is 

507
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,240
pointless. 
I'm pulling the plug. 

508
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,080
But we, but it was never more 
than 24 hours before he or I 

509
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,160
would call each other again and 
say, do you really, really want 

510
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,360
to split up? 
Or do we just not know how to 

511
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:17,360
work through this very specific 
fight that we're having, which 

512
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,960
is different from the fight that
we had a month ago? 

513
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,160
You know, and, and both times 
either person would say, I don't

514
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,880
want to break up at all. 
I've been thinking about you 

515
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,400
constantly the last 24 hours. 
Let's get some coffee and talk 

516
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,400
about it. 
So really, we had to learn how 

517
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,440
to have conflict together. 
And once we did that, there was 

518
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,440
known was no need to break up 
anymore because then every 

519
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,640
difficult situation or 
conversation was literally just 

520
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,280
OK, it's conflict time. 
Let's see what you need. 

521
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,720
See what I need. 
Let's talk it out and then and 

522
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,280
then repair afterward is always 
wonderful, too. 

523
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,280
Then let's snuggle and watch a 
movie to make sure that we, you 

524
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,680
know, still feel good about each
other and we're not both still 

525
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,400
angry. 
And I got to say, when you, when

526
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,480
the conflict times aren't 
terrifying anymore, it's a lot 

527
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,560
easier to stop clinging. 
And for him, it was a lot easier

528
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,920
to stop running. 
You know, we figured out how to 

529
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,640
have conflict. 
And my work on just being more 

530
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,680
independent in general made it 
so that he didn't feel like as 

531
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,680
much need to run away, which 
just made me even more 

532
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,040
independent, you know, and then 
kind of pushed us both towards 

533
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,640
security in anxious and avoidant
healing the dynamic, I spend a 

534
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,440
third of the book talking about 
how to deal with the anxious 

535
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,000
side, and then another third of 
the book talking about how to 

536
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,680
deal with the avoidance side, 
and then the last third talking 

537
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,360
about ways that we deal with 
that together, Work that's done 

538
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,760
by both partners. 
But even if it's just one person

539
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,040
working on their side, like I 
did in the very beginning, I got

540
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,640
to, I think this is Julie Manano
that I want to attribute this 

541
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,640
quote to. 
But one person can't save a 

542
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,240
relationship, but they can 
change the entire atmosphere of 

543
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,880
it. 
And in an environment with a 

544
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,040
changed atmosphere, the 
relationship just has a lot 

545
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,680
better chance of healing and 
finding itself in a good place. 

546
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,640
Well said. 
I love Julie's content as well 

547
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:18,000
as I think she's at the secure 
relationship on Instagram for 

548
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,640
those watching and listening and
her she has a new book too. 

549
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,440
Yes, her book on healing anxious
and avoidant attachment. 

550
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,680
I think it's called Secure Love 
and it's it's phenomenal. 

551
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,400
It's absolutely worth the read 
as well. 

552
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Love these reco's. 
Yeah, and I have them for days. 

553
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,840
All I do is read. 
I love it. 

554
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,520
I can relate to that a lot and I
think a lot of anxious attachers

555
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,400
can. 
You know, many of us are self 

556
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,960
healers. 
Yes, exactly. 

557
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,520
And there's something about 
reading a book that really gets 

558
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,840
you and you see yourself in the 
words on the pages that is 

559
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,560
really transformational. 
Yeah. 

560
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,600
And really impactful. 
And I do think for many people 

561
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,800
it started or starts with 
attached, which is flawed as we 

562
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,640
all know, right? 
You know, notebook is perfect. 

563
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:10,160
One of my biggest gripes with 
attached is that it tends to 

564
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,960
advise to just not grow more 
secure, but to find someone 

565
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,080
secure. 
Yeah, that's my biggest problem 

566
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,480
with it as well. 
And you say there are no perfect

567
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,880
books, but I want to. 
I think I may be biased, but I 

568
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,880
think the closest to perfection 
that we've got is Wired for Love

569
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,760
by Stan Tatkin. 
He's just, and I am, I'm biased 

570
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,480
because Stan is probably one of 
the most compassionate people 

571
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,720
I've ever read on attachment 
ever. 

572
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,760
Just every single style. 
I mean, if I had to point to one

573
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,960
source that really informed the 
way that I look at attachment 

574
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,520
more than any others, it would 
be Stan Tack and and how he just

575
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,320
his massive amount of compassion
toward all the attachment 

576
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,880
styles. 
I think compassion and empathy 

577
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,120
for each other is another way 
that we kind of that we heal 

578
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,000
that dynamic because being able 
to see the other person as a 

579
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,080
human who's trying and flawed 
and is going to screw it up 

580
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,400
every now and then. 
That's a, that's a glue, you 

581
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,440
know, it really is a glue that 
it makes it a lot tougher to 

582
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,640
pull up a couple apart when we 
can see each other as two people

583
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,280
who are trying our best. 
It's basically anti the Amazon 

584
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,200
effect that we were talking 
about. 

585
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,400
You know, you're finding that 
humanity again, that compassion 

586
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,480
again. 
You're really seeing that person

587
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,520
for their complexities. 
You know, people are just 

588
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,520
responding from their level of 
self-awareness and healing. 

589
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:45,000
And there's a lot of people out 
there who want to love deeply 

590
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,320
but might not know how. 
And that doesn't mean that they 

591
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,800
can't have a healthy 
relationship, but it's going to 

592
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,920
take work for them to develop 
those skills. 

593
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,520
And the more that they get 
discarded by people, the more it

594
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,720
makes them want to clam up, shut
down, not try again, not put in 

595
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,120
the effort. 
So when you can see someone for 

596
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,920
their scars and their wounds and
see beyond that too, it really 

597
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,600
is transformational. 
And compassion is deeply 

598
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,320
healing. 
It's the essence of healing. 

599
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,440
It is absolutely. 
If we'd like to inject even a 

600
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,200
little more nuance into this 
conversation, I think it's 

601
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,760
important to say too, if you 
were in a relationship and 

602
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,240
you've been there for years and 
years and years, and the other 

603
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,200
person absolutely is not working
at all and nothing's changing. 

604
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,720
I'm also a very big proponent of
letting a relationship go. 

605
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,200
That's that's not that. 
I mean, you've really given it 

606
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,360
your best effort and the other 
person is not making it any 

607
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240
easier. 
It's okay to walk away from 

608
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,080
something like that. 
And that comes from the 

609
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,000
compassionate voice in me too, 
because sometimes the voice that

610
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,080
we think is really caring and 
compassionate is actually making

611
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,960
life really hard for us because 
they're saying you can do it. 

612
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,080
Just keep trying to change this 
person a little bit harder. 

613
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,560
So anyway, just wanted to throw 
that out. 

614
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,679
If I had any naysayers or people
who were like very anti Ricky on

615
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:18,480
the Internet, I think their 
critique would be that I'm a 

616
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,639
little too hopeful. 
So I do want to throw out that I

617
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,159
definitely don't think every 
relationship is salvageable. 

618
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,719
But if I had to put a number on 
it, I would say most I think or 

619
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,120
probably OK, more OK than we 
give them credit for being. 

620
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,920
Yes. 
And that is because more often 

621
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,639
than not, most people are giving
you everything that they have to

622
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:41,719
give. 
Yeah, but it might not be in the

623
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,679
ways that we receive. 
And so they're speaking Greek to

624
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,639
us. 
We're speaking Arabic to them, 

625
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:48,560
and nobody's speaking the same 
language. 

626
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,800
And that's really tough. 
You know, it doesn't mean that 

627
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,440
you can't get on the same page. 
You can learn to translate. 

628
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,520
You can learn to comprehend what
each person is saying in the way

629
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,040
that they're giving love, and 
love languages are a pathway 1 

630
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,640
pathway for this. 
There's many attachment theory 

631
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,440
is also another pathway to 
understanding why certain people

632
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,160
respond the way that they do or 
what triggers them and what 

633
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,560
their patterns are in terms of 
responding to those triggers. 

634
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,520
So there's a lot of different 
ways of looking at this, but at 

635
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,960
the end of the day, what you're 
saying is something that I echo 

636
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,560
a lot of times too, which is 1. 
It always takes two people to 

637
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,000
make the relationship work. 
It can take one person to effect

638
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:38,160
change or an alteration or an 
evolution in the connection, but

639
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,920
the other person then has to 
respond to that. 

640
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,200
And, you know, I think it's also
important to say that one of the

641
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,160
most loving things you can ever 
do for someone is if you really 

642
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,880
have given it everything you've 
got over the course of months 

643
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,760
and months and months and maybe 
even years, you come to a 

644
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,480
crossroads where you have to 
decide, can I love this person 

645
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,360
in the ways that they need to be
loved? 

646
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,040
Can I accept that there are some
things about them that will 

647
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,160
never change? 
And I love them exactly as they 

648
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,280
are? 
And it was Marianne Williamson 

649
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,520
who, in A Return to Love, wrote 
that it is our failure to accept

650
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,040
people exactly as they are that 
gives us pain in a relationship.

651
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,880
That's gorgeous. 
And that perspective of 

652
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,000
compassion is, I think, what 
you're saying. 

653
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,680
But compassion is only going to 
get you so far. 

654
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,160
It doesn't guarantee that the 
other person is going to receive

655
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,080
that. 
Yeah. 

656
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,880
And then to do their part to 
create a more compassionate 

657
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,600
connection. 
And sometimes the most loving 

658
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,400
thing you can do is release 
someone to be loved in the ways 

659
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,200
that they need to be loved. 
Breaking up doesn't always have 

660
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,240
to be, and oftentimes isn't the 
end of the connection because 

661
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,560
you're still connecting to them 
with your thoughts about the 

662
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,840
relationship long after it's 
over. 

663
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,400
Sure. 
So remember that too if you're 

664
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,680
watching this or listening to 
this. 

665
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,160
It can be an act of 
unconditional love to release 

666
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,880
someone and to be loved better 
by someone else. 

667
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,160
Yes, and not necessarily a 
failure either. 

668
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,040
I don't look at my marriage as a
failed relationship anymore. 

669
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,200
I definitely used to right when 
I got divorced, but now I look 

670
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,360
back and it's it was just the 
end of something. 

671
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,920
Myself and my ex-husband have 
both found ourselves in 

672
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,360
relationships now that are much 
better suited to us 

673
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,800
individually. 
I think we're a lot happier now 

674
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,320
than when we were together. 
And when you look at it that 

675
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,920
way, it's like, how could 
anybody call that a failure? 

676
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,720
Well said. 
There's a paragraph in Needy No 

677
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,400
More, the book that goes into 
this, where I talk about how I'm

678
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,720
baffled by people saying that a 
relationship failed because 

679
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,240
relationships are about 
learning. 

680
00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:00,520
The only way it fails is if you 
fail to learn from the ways that

681
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,920
you showed up and from the 
lessons that are there laid bare

682
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,280
for you to pick up and to say, 
OK, this wasn't working in this 

683
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,440
connection. 
What does this say about the way

684
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,320
that I show up in relationships?
And what does this say about 

685
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,800
what I need in relationships? 
And how can I better own and 

686
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,120
embody and honor those things 
instead of beating myself up for

687
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,440
my sensitivity or for wanting 
communication, as many anxious 

688
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,240
attachers do? 
Right, right. 

689
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,040
Oh, that's so This is why I love
talking to you, Chris. 

690
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,040
You're really, you have a great 
way of putting these things too,

691
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,640
that I'm sure the audience who's
watching and listening or 

692
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,240
nodding going, yeah, that's how 
I feel about it. 

693
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,080
I love it. 
Thank you so much. 

694
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,880
I appreciate that very much. 
I'm a words of affirmation 

695
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,240
person for people listening 
right. 

696
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,240
So if you want to rate the 
podcast, leave a review, comment

697
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,240
on Spotify. 
Love all of the above. 

698
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:05,000
It's, you know, sometimes when 
you're hosting a show or when 

699
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,160
you're putting yourself out 
there and being vulnerable, like

700
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,400
what we've been talking about. 
Because I've talked very openly 

701
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,920
about my own traumas and what 
happened with my mom and my 

702
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,520
sister and my dad and exes. 
And it's tough sometimes. 

703
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,400
But when you put yourself out 
there like that, it can feel 

704
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,720
sometimes like you're speaking 
into an echo chamber or nobody's

705
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:27,400
listening. 
Yeah, Either. 

706
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,840
Yeah. 
So if you have creators that you

707
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,280
follow online who, like Ricky 
and myself, post a lot of 

708
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,240
content and are very vulnerable 
in what they post, please write 

709
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:40,360
to us. 
Yes, comment and tell us as 

710
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,640
much. 
That's we. 

711
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,960
Appreciate that too. 
That's the fuel that keeps me 

712
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,560
writing honestly is messages 
from people saying, hey, that 

713
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,960
thing that you said the other 
day actually helped and makes me

714
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,080
feel better. 
And that's, that's what keeps me

715
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,920
going. 
I don't think I would do this if

716
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,680
that didn't exist because that's
that's what I need to feel like 

717
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,920
this is worth it and something 
that's very meaningful to me. 

718
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,600
Hearing that it's helpful. 
Well, long before you and I ever

719
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:12,120
connected like this on a 
professional level, when I saw 

720
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,520
your content from afar, I always
respected and admired your 

721
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,040
approach to this and the 
compassion that clearly shines 

722
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:27,680
through your approach to content
creation, to what you share of 

723
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,600
yourself. 
And I know that other people 

724
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,440
online see that too. 
And I hope that you know how 

725
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,680
impactful that is. 
I know you see the numbers, you 

726
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,080
see you're following. 
I see it too for myself on 

727
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,760
TikTok and Instagram and 
elsewhere. 

728
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,640
And the numbers help, of course.
Yeah, those are boosts, too. 

729
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,160
They're. 
Boosts. 

730
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,000
But yeah, no, the biggest one is
having people just tell us, tell

731
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,520
me with their words and I'm sure
tell you with their words. 

732
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,800
This is this is actually what I 
needed to hear. 

733
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,200
Thanks for saying it. 
Yes, exactly. 

734
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,640
Tell the people that you admire 
online that you admire them, 

735
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,480
please. 
Right. 

736
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:05,960
And this is me telling you, 
Ricky. 

737
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,320
Yeah. 
I know. 

738
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Well, thank you. 
I had no idea you were watching 

739
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,760
from before we met too. 
That's like I said, attached. 

740
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,440
Really kind of broke my spirit. 
And then and then my boys stand 

741
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,120
Tatkin, he like lifted me up 
again and was like, Hey, we can 

742
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,360
look at this compassionately. 
And I, I really think empathy 

743
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,320
and compassion is, it's the way 
to go. 

744
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,200
It's the I try to make my little
corner of the Internet better 

745
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,320
than a lot of what I see in that
I want the world to be more 

746
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,640
compassionate with each other in
themselves. 

747
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:43,200
And that's what I'm going for. 
And inclusive and flexible and 

748
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:47,760
understanding and empathetic and
encouraging. 

749
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,240
There's a lot of the opposite in
our world today, as we all know.

750
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:55,760
It's shoved in our face and 
sometimes it can feel like the 

751
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,960
positive aspects, The light, if 
you will, to be cliche, The 

752
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,240
light is difficult to see 
through the darkness, but it is 

753
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:06,120
there and you are shining that 
light. 

754
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,760
I do want to talk about Stan's 
work a little bit. 

755
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,200
I am familiar with his work. 
I believe he characterizes the 

756
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,120
avoidant as the island. 
Yes, the island. 

757
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,040
For those who aren't familiar 
with Stan's work, tell them 

758
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,840
about it. 
And what about it impacted you 

759
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,560
beyond the compassionate 
approach? 

760
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,920
OK. 
So even the titles anxious 

761
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,240
attacher and avoidant attacher 
are a little bit harsh and 

762
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:36,880
invite judgment and and Stan 
knew that and so he rebranded 

763
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,200
the attachment styles. 
I like we just said, the 

764
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,960
avoidance are islands. 
They kind of feel safer. 

765
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,760
It's all about safety. 
With Stan, islands feel safer 

766
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,560
standing alone. 
He characterized the anxious 

767
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,040
attacher as a wave. 
Waves feel safety in crashing 

768
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,680
against islands or whoever they 
can find. 

769
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,040
And then what did he call the 
secure anchor? 

770
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,600
The secures are anchors, which 
is such a lovely, what a lovely 

771
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,600
metaphor. 
He's a he's good with words, 

772
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,320
too. 
Yeah. 

773
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,040
And the anchors kind of stay 
where they are and make 

774
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,200
everybody else feel like they're
safe and secure as well. 

775
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,240
Stan is. 
Stable. 

776
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,600
Stans a couples therapist and I 
think his biggest thing is 

777
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,120
empathy and hearing each other 
and using the kindest words 

778
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,280
possible that also not to throw 
another name into this too, but 

779
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,680
Marshall Rosenberg with the 
Nonviolent communication is 

780
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,800
another huge, huge influence of 
mine because I think the vast 

781
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,920
majority of us don't realize 
what kind of harm and negative 

782
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,760
perpetuating we're doing by 
throwing bad words into our 

783
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,480
relationship. 
I mean, the things that we say, 

784
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,680
we don't realize how that 
impacts our partner. 

785
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:53,880
And so yeah, so, so Stantec and 
and Marshall Rosenberg's, both 

786
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,360
of those, they would have been 
buddies if they ever met in real

787
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,880
life. 
And I think their attitudes 

788
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:04,040
toward connection and more 
self-awareness about how we're 

789
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,480
impacting the relationship, 
those are just, they're huge 

790
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,120
influences of mine. 
And there's wired for love that 

791
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,400
Stan wrote and there's wired for
dating. 

792
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,720
So in case you're not in a long 
term relationship, Wired for 

793
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,920
Dating is great too. 
And all of it talks about 

794
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,720
attachment and in compassionate 
way, and what we can do within 

795
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,040
ourselves and within the 
relationship to make it better. 

796
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,600
These are all great principles 
when it comes to growing more 

797
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,800
secure, that kind of nonviolent 
effective communication. 

798
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,720
I mean, look, words have the 
power to break people down and 

799
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:37,920
they have the power to build 
people up. 

800
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,400
And you get to choose how you 
wield that power. 

801
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,960
And that is a big responsibility
that many of us don't really 

802
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,240
take accountability. 
For yeah. 

803
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,480
But one of the things that I do 
as a coach all the time is to 

804
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,440
help to intervene when folks 
might be even speaking 

805
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,080
negatively about themselves 
because it's interesting. 

806
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,200
They'll characterize. 
I want to feel less anxious and 

807
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,240
I stop them and I say, well, 
let's actually flip that on its 

808
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:06,240
head. 
What is it that you want more 

809
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:08,760
of? 
You want to feel more secure? 

810
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,000
We're not just looking to reduce
the anxiety because that's 

811
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,800
focusing on a quote, UN quote 
negative experience and limiting

812
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,480
what is a very natural human 
emotion to experience. 

813
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,640
Instead of that, maybe we can 
honor that that is a natural 

814
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,120
thing to feel and that you're 
going to feel that way from time

815
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,440
to time, regardless of however 
much work you might do or not 

816
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,280
do. 
And instead acknowledge that you

817
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,200
want to feel other emotions. 
You want to, you're not healing 

818
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,160
to, to reduce your anxiety. 
You're healing to access more 

819
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:50,480
joy and gratitude and comfort 
and stability and presence and 

820
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,160
peace and easygoingness. 
And you know, that's a big shift

821
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,760
for folks that they don't often 
realize. 

822
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,360
And that starts with how we use 
language. 

823
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,960
And following people that use 
that kind of language is a great

824
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,720
way to soak this up. 
And so if you're watching this 

825
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:16,920
or listening to this, Ricky is a
great resource for phrases that 

826
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:22,240
you can use really tangible, 
practical interventions, even 

827
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:25,760
like lines that you can throw 
out there that can help to 

828
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:31,480
change the trajectory of not 
only a conversation, but how you

829
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,840
can approach conflict and the 
nature of a dynamic or the 

830
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,200
relationship generally. 
Thank you for saying that, 

831
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,640
Chris. 
I think that's a huge part of my

832
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,320
account. 
It always will be. 

833
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,760
My Instagram account is, I feel 
like having, having phrases kind

834
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,840
of in our bank that we can pull 
out when things are tough and 

835
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,400
we're not sure what to say. 
I think that's one of the things

836
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,680
that changes the atmosphere 
having even if it sounds kind of

837
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,680
wooden or awkward at first 
because we're not used to saying

838
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,800
it. 
Those kind of things become the 

839
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,280
way that you talk to your 
partner after a while with 

840
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,080
enough practice. 
My own partner and I, I, I can't

841
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,480
even imagine those kids that 
broke up 8 times daily asking 

842
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,160
each other, what can I do to 
help you feel loved today? 

843
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,040
We certainly weren't asking that
in the beginning, but having 

844
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,280
phrases like that that invite 
the other person to be 

845
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,320
vulnerable and connect and using
them on a daily basis, that's 

846
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,920
the kind of atmosphere changing 
thing that really squashes the 

847
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,960
anxious avoidant push pull 
dynamic. 

848
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,800
Great point about proactively 
managing the health of the 

849
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,880
relationship, and not just for 
the sake of avoiding conflict or

850
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,880
preventing it, but for if you 
use kind of a metaphor of an 

851
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,120
emotional bank account for the 
relationship, you're depositing 

852
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,640
love into that account. 
And for those who might be aware

853
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,120
of the Gottman Institute and the
Gottman's and their work, you 

854
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,320
know, they espouse the 5 to 1 
positive to quote UN quote 

855
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:07,200
negative interactions as the 
ratio to aim for or exceed in 

856
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,360
relationships because they found
in longitudinal studies that the

857
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,640
five to one ratio was what 
determined whether or not the 

858
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,920
couple made it or didn't. 
Yes. 

859
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,640
And it really speaks to what you
are saying, which is that you 

860
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,360
need to pour love into one 
another. 

861
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,400
For anxious and avoidant 
couples, there's a big dominance

862
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,000
of criticism and judgment and 
feeling threatened, and there's 

863
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,920
a lot of fear. 
And when that come becomes the 

864
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,120
predominant narrative for energy
in a connection, that's really 

865
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,280
problematic. 
And it's got to change if you 

866
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,720
want to make the relationship 
healthier and improve. 

867
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,280
Speak positively over one 
another. 

868
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,360
Talk about what you admire. 
Talk about what you want more of

869
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,040
from that person, not just what 
you want them to do less of. 

870
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,360
Yes, especially if you're on the
anxious side and your partner is

871
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,480
on the avoidance side. 
If you're only focusing on well 

872
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,400
you didn't text me, it took you 
4 hours, I didn't hear from you.

873
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,880
Instead, talk about the fact 
that touching base with some 

874
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:20,360
sort of regularity helps you to 
feel connected and appreciated. 

875
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,800
And people respond, talking 
about language that respond a 

876
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,280
lot better to that kind of 
language because it's just 

877
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,280
saying this is what works for 
me. 

878
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,560
It's a form of boundary setting 
that is inclusive and gentle and

879
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:40,240
compassionate and collaborative 
instead of just critical and 

880
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:43,040
saying to someone, well, I 
didn't like that and that's not 

881
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,520
going to work for me. 
And you can't do that, which is 

882
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,880
attacking someone and putting 
them on the defensive. 

883
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,200
It's funny, on my podcast, my Co
host Jimmy will be talking about

884
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,800
phrases that are like helpful or
hurtful and he'll, he'll throw 

885
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,560
out the hurtful or the harmful 
phrases. 

886
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,560
And I can feel myself responding
to that even though he's not 

887
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,360
talking to me. 
It's literally just an example. 

888
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,000
He'll be saying you this, you 
that. 

889
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,680
And it's like, it's like the 
little girl in me is like 

890
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,200
feeling like I'm being punished,
you know, and then we'll turn 

891
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,800
around and we'll throw out the 
good phrases. 

892
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,240
And even though he's 3000 miles 
away and technically a person 

893
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:27,400
I've never met in real life, I 
feel so close to him. 

894
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,080
Even just hearing him say the 
loving kind things or making a 

895
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,920
request, you know, he say the 
other day it was like, hey, it 

896
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,080
would be really great if we 
could go out for a date on 

897
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,840
Friday. 
And I thought, let's get that 

898
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,400
man a date on Friday night. 
We I was like motivated to help 

899
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,080
him even though, you know, I'm 
not in that relationship. 

900
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,840
I love that words. 
Are so, so powerful. 

901
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,880
They are, and this really brings
us full circle because we've 

902
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,560
talked about how reading and 
books have impacted us and now 

903
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,640
look at where we are. 
Imagine if we had never read 

904
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,480
Attached, and imagine if you had
never learned about the 

905
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:12,520
different ways of describing the
attachment styles and hadn't 

906
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,680
ever read Nonviolent 
Communication. 

907
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:19,560
It was other people's words that
helped you to get to where you 

908
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,320
are now, modeling that for other
people, and same with me. 

909
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,160
There were many books. 
A Return to Love is one of them.

910
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,600
A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. 
I mean, there's so many. 

911
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,160
I I've got blogs on my site 
cracklift.com that go into books

912
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,360
that changed my life and books 
that changed my love life and 

913
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,880
books that if you're an anxious 
attacher, you can read which 

914
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,920
your first book is on that list.
I saw that. 

915
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:43,720
Yeah. 
Thank you for. 

916
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:45,960
That healing, you're very 
welcome, of course. 

917
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,360
Yeah. 
More than happy to refer people 

918
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,680
to your work again, you're one 
of my favorite people in this 

919
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,600
space. 
And I mean that so, so sweet. 

920
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,200
That brings us full circle 
because now we're modeling that 

921
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:02,160
for other people and being the 
change that we wish to see and 

922
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,200
being the models that we wish 
perhaps we would have had in 

923
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,640
ways big and small. 
Because I don't want to speak 

924
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,360
for you on that front. 
But for me, I know I'm trying to

925
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,760
be the healing companion I wish 
I would have had searching in a 

926
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,520
lot of disparate places and not 
really knowing what to do or 

927
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,880
having any structure right. 
That's my exact goal actually. 

928
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,400
I'm glad you said that. 
Once things started to get 

929
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,520
better, I thought there are 
other Ricky's out there who need

930
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,240
who need to hear this and I can 
I can do that for them. 

931
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,360
And you have and you are. 
I've tried, yeah. 

932
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Thank you. 
You are, you are. 

933
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,600
You deserve to be lifted up to 
the full extent here. 

934
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,240
Your work has impacted so many 
people. 

935
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:49,960
I know this about myself too. 
It's still a little bit mind 

936
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,000
blowing from time to time to 
look back on my own journey and 

937
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,920
be like, wow, I mean, it wasn't 
really that long ago, right? 

938
00:52:59,040 --> 00:52:59,600
Right. 
Either. 

939
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:05,680
I first read Attached and now 
look at how my life has 

940
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,920
completely changed and the 
impact that this has had not 

941
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,600
just on me, but on countless 
other people. 

942
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,760
And I know the same is true. 
Yeah, for you, yeah. 

943
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,760
What do you want people to know 
about your book? 

944
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,760
As we kind of wind towards the 
end of the episode here? 

945
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,240
What do you want people to take 
away from this conversation when

946
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:31,280
it comes to healing the anxious 
avoidant dynamic? 

947
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,960
Is there anything we haven't 
covered today that you want the 

948
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,000
anxious attachers listening to 
this or watching this to take 

949
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,000
away from the conversation? 
Like I said before, absolutely 

950
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,280
know that there's hope, but 
also, and I think we kind of 

951
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,080
briefly touched on this earlier,
none of the work that we do in 

952
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,960
this is wasted. 
Even if it doesn't save your 

953
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,040
relationship or change your 
relationship and things still 

954
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,560
kind of go up in smoke, the work
that we do on this stuff makes 

955
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,920
all the relationships in our 
lives better. 

956
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,280
Well said. 
Sometimes it is the end of a 

957
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,480
relationship that is the 
catalyst, the kick in the ass 

958
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,400
that yeah, we might need to do 
the work that we need to do and 

959
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:14,440
it pushes us towards resources 
and in directions that maybe we 

960
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,080
wouldn't have pursued otherwise.
And that is a beautiful thing. 

961
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,560
It was an anxious avoidant 
relationship coming to a close 

962
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,320
that ultimately led to me 
discovering my attachment style.

963
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,120
Yeah, reading Attached and to 
ending up here having worked 

964
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,040
with thousands of people across 
6 continents, which again is 

965
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,760
still very mind blowing to me. 
What? 

966
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,680
It's an impressive statistic. 
I like it. 

967
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,440
Thank you, thank you. 
I appreciate that. 

968
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,880
But it really speaks to 
something very powerful, which 

969
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:47,520
is that I'm grateful that that 
relationship did not last. 

970
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:52,160
I look back at myself and how I 
showed up at that time, and I am

971
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,000
proud of the work that I've 
done. 

972
00:54:55,040 --> 00:55:00,800
And no, because I'm single right
now, I know that I'm equipped 

973
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,800
for my next relationship. 
You know, I don't have it all 

974
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,000
figured out by any means, but I 
know that I'm a lot healthier 

975
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,800
than I've ever been. 
I'm the healthiest I've ever 

976
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:09,440
been. 
Yes. 

977
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,480
I know what I bring to the 
table. 

978
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,200
I know I've got the skills 
sharpened in the departments 

979
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,600
that they need to be. 
Yeah. 

980
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,960
And I'm excited to, you know, 
really do that work with and. 

981
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,960
Everything that you've done has 
made you a better friend to 

982
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,320
others and a better friend to 
yourself, right? 

983
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,520
Yes, exactly. 
And thank you for pointing that 

984
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,680
out, too. 
It's not just about, you know, 

985
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,600
saving this up for my next 
romantic partner or anything 

986
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,680
like that, right? 
This is impacting how I show up 

987
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,200
for my clients. 
It impacts how I show up with 

988
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,160
family and with friends. 
You know, I don't even know if I

989
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,160
would have been able to have 
this kind of conversation years 

990
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,040
ago if I were still on the very 
anxious side of the attachment 

991
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,600
spectrum, you know, and I look 
back at myself with such 

992
00:55:55,160 --> 00:56:00,080
compassion and gentleness and 
pride and love, you know, and 

993
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,080
empowerment. 
Because we were doing the best 

994
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,720
we knew how with the tools that 
we had back then. 

995
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,040
That's why I get that question 
from people a lot. 

996
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,080
How can I stop feeling angry at 
myself for screwing things up 

997
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,160
or, or doing things badly in the
past? 

998
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,840
And I said, you're doing the 
best you could with the tools 

999
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:18,400
that you had. 
There's something admirable 

1000
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,760
about that too, you know. 
I am nodding feverishly for 

1001
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,880
those who are listening. 
Yes, yes, absolutely. 

1002
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,520
That is the root of forgiveness,
which is something that has 

1003
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:34,240
impacted my own life very deeply
and something I have my clients 

1004
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:38,360
practice with themselves first 
and foremost, and also with 

1005
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,320
others. 
We often carry around a lot of 

1006
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,960
energy from others that we don't
realize is still there. 

1007
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,480
Totally. 
Ricky, this has been an amazing 

1008
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,400
conversation. 
I know that this is going to 

1009
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,080
inspire so many people and give 
them hope. 

1010
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:57,040
And I'm sure that if Ricky, who 
was struggling in her previous 

1011
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,480
marriage, could hear this, she 
could have used some of that 

1012
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,360
hope, probably. 
Yes, I guess this is the part 

1013
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,000
where I tell people if they want
to find me or my work and my 

1014
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,480
content. 
You can find me at Anxious 

1015
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,200
Hearts Guide on Instagram. 
Ricky close is a little bit 

1016
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,440
tough to spell, so don't worry 
about that. 

1017
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,960
Anxious Hearts Guide is me. 
You can find my books, The 

1018
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,960
Anxious Hearts Guide or Anxious 
and Avoidant Healing the Dynamic

1019
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,640
on Amazon or my website 
anxiousheartsguide.com. 

1020
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,480
I'm around. 
I love, I love talking to folks,

1021
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,880
so I welcome the DMS on 
Instagram. 

1022
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,560
I can't always answer every one 
of them, but I really do enjoy 

1023
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,120
conversing with people in there 
so if I can get to it, I will. 

1024
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Reach out to Ricky, go to her 
website, buy her two books. 

1025
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,600
They are incredible. 
Her advice is invaluable. 

1026
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,200
She's got lots of tangible, 
practical advice that you can 

1027
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,760
put into application and into 
practice right now, so pick 

1028
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,720
those up. 
Her first book is the Anxious 

1029
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,360
Hearts Guide. 
Second book is Anxious and 

1030
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,560
Avoidant Healing the dynamic. 
Visit her on Instagram and her 

1031
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,000
website. 
Like she said. 

1032
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:09,760
Thank you so much for coming on 
the show, Ricky. 

1033
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:10,720
Thanks for having me, Chris.