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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to Needy No More, the podcast 

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dedicated to healing the anxious
attachment style. 

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I'm your host, anxious 
attachment style coach and 

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author Chris Ratcliffe. 
I've helped thousands of people 

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across 6 continents to end the 
cycle of anxious attachment 

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through my books, workshops, 
digital downloads, and coaching 

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program. 
I'm excited to carry on that 

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mission here on the podcast, 
sharing tools and techniques, 

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principles and practices for you
to explore on your journey to 

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growing more secure. 
Today is a very interesting 

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episode because we're going to 
be talking about the avoidant. 

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So we're actually going to shift
the focus a little bit from the 

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anxious attacher to the avoidant
attacher. 

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Now, of course, many of us have 
partnered up with avoidant 

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attachers in the past or might 
even be partnered up with them 

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right now in the present. 
This is all about empathy and 

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understanding. 
So I want you to try to approach

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today's episode from that space,
OK? 

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Do your best to keep an open 
mind as we explore another 

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attachment style and see what 
they've experienced, what their 

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experience has been like, what's
LED them to this point, what 

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causes them to behave the the 
way that they do. 

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So let's get into it. 
There's a specific kind of 

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confusion that I don't think 
gets talked about enough. 

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It's not the kind of confusion 
of not knowing how someone feels

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about you. 
It's the kind where you feel 

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their love so deep in your heart
and bones one minute and then 

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watch as it disappears the next.
I will never forget this night 

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from a few years ago with a guy 
I was seeing at the time. 

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We'd had one of those rare 
evenings with just the two of us

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where everything just flowed 
effortlessly, where everything 

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felt right. 
Real conversation, real 

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laughter, real affection, the 
kind of closeness you can't fake

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or manufacture. 
That night, as I placed my head 

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on my pillow, I couldn't help 
but think, this is it. 

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This is what it's supposed to 
feel like. 

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But the next day was a 
completely different story. 

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By that afternoon, he was 
totally gone emotionally, even 

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though physically he was still 
right there next to me. 

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Something had faded behind his 
eyes. 

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The warmth from the night before
had been replaced by a cool 

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distance that lingered in the 
room. 

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My mind was racing. 
I kept replaying the previous 

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evening in my head, looking for 
what I'd done wrong, what I'd 

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said, what I'd been too much or 
not enough of. 

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It took me a long time, a lot of
research, self reflection, and 

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of course, therapy to understand
that it wasn't necessarily 

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anything that I'd done or not 
done. 

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What I was experiencing was that
person's nervous system doing 

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exactly what it learned to do, 
protect instead of Kinect. 

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So here's the question I want 
you to sit with as we get into 

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today's episode. 
What if the person who keeps 

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pulling away from you isn't 
broken, isn't the enemy or a 

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villain, but is actually scared 
just like you and coping 

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differently than you do? 
By the end of this episode, 

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that's what you'll come to 
understand about the Avoidant 

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Attacher. 
If you have an avoidant 

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attachment style yourself, or 
you're disorganized but tend to 

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lean avoidant, I hope this 
deepens your self-awareness and 

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gives you a real path towards 
secure attachment. 

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And if you're anxious or 
disorganized but leaning 

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anxious, I hope this helps you 
better navigate your 

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relationships with the avoidance
in your life. 

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Who knows, maybe you can even 
breathe new life into those 

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relationships with the knowledge
you'll acquire today. 

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Here's what we'll cover in 
today's episode. 

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What avoidant attachment is. 
The avoidance nervous system and

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the role of deactivating 
strategies. 

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Similarities and differences 
with anxious and disorganized 

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attachment styles. 
The anxious avoidant trap. 

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Of course, we have to go there. 
The Avoidant as villain fallacy,

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which is a big part of what I 
want you to take away today, 

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Healing and secure alternatives.
And then we'll close with a 

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little bit of AQ and A from 
questions taken straight from my

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free support group for anxious 
attachers on Facebook. 

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So without further ado, let's 
get into the first part here. 

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What avoidant attachment is. 
Before we dive in, it's 

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important to call out. 
There's actually 2 attachment 

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styles that are labeled as 
avoidant, the dismissive 

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avoidant, which we'll unpack 
today. 

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When I say avoidant, I mean 
dismissive avoidant. 

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And then there's also the 
fearful avoidant, which I'll 

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refer to as disorganized 
throughout today's episode. 

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While there are certainly 
similarities between the two 

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different avoidant attachment 
styles, what's important to know

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is that the fearful avoidant or 
disorganized attacher 

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experiences both anxious and 
avoidant attachment. 

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So it's actually a combination 
of those two experiences. 

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This is also why it's sometimes 
referred to as the anxious 

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avoidant attachment style. 
Again, for clarity purposes, 

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I'll refer to this style as 
disorganized from here on out. 

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I like the one word labels here.
It makes it a lot easier to 

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discuss. 
Avoidant, anxious, disorganized,

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secure. 
That is always how I will refer 

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to them. 
However, it's always important 

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to clarify and be specific. 
So for that purpose, I want you 

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to know when I say avoidant, I 
mean dismissive avoidant 

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specifically. 
So let's get into the dismissive

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avoidance relational strategy. 
This is taken straight from my 

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book Needy No More. 
The earliest pages of the book 

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go into attachment theory, 
attachment science, and 

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attachment styles. 
So this is pulled from there. 

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The avoidance relational 
strategy is as follows. 

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They get chased and pursued, but
they flee when the connection 

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deepens and things feel serious.
Avoidance are naturally leaned 

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out of their relationships. 
They're extremely independent to

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the point of sometimes seeing 
dependency as weakness. 

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The avoidance is also overly 
comfortable being alone. 

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They fear self abandonment and 
they abandon others to prevent 

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it. 
They avoid enmeshment at all 

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costs, very triggering for them.
They also crave autonomy and 

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self-reliance. 
They're overwhelmed by deep 

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connection and emotional 
intimacy, even though they 

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desire it now. 
In terms of emotional needs, 

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many avoidance need a lot of 
space, a lot of breathability in

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their relationships. 
They need that independence and 

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autonomy. 
They also need for things in 

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their relationship to feel easy,
whether it's with a friend or a 

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romantic partner. 
They don't want their 

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relationships to feel like a lot
of work. 

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That's very triggering for them.
It feels to them like they're 

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being backed into a corner, like
it's no longer fun or 

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worthwhile. 
Avoidance also crave a lot of 

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predictability control, even 
though they tend to do this and 

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crave this unconsciously. 
And as I mentioned just a few 

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moments ago, they also need 
connection. 

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They're human beings. 
They still need other people 

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even though at times they would 
prefer not to. 

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So what causes the avoidant 
attachment style to develop? 

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There are specific scenarios 
that actually lead to a child or

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an adult developing this kind of
attachment style. 

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The 1st is emotional neglect. 
Anytime there's a consistent 

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lack of emotional needs being 
met, someone learns to suppress 

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those needs. 
And many avoidance can relate to

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this. 
They would rather pretend that 

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they don't need anything. 
They would rather suppress it, 

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deny their feelings, avoid their
emotional experience because 

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it's incredibly triggering for 
them when it comes up. 

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It reminds them of the time or 
times where they've been left 

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with their pain by themselves. 
This leads us to the next point 

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about what can potentially lead 
to the development of avoidant 

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attachment, and that is 
parentification or having to 

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grow up or become independent 
too soon. 

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For many, avoidance. 
They learn from a very young age

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that they need to be self 
reliant. 

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They can't rely on other people 
to get their needs met, so they 

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need to rely on themselves and 
that starts to create a bubble 

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of protection around them as you
can imagine. 

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More generally speaking, any 
kind of inconsistency and 

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unpredictability either in the 
environment growing up and or in

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adult relationships of any kind.
This can be friendships or 

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platonic relationships as well 
as romantic relationships. 

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Shutting down becomes normal 
when you don't know how someone 

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will respond. 
That's natural. 

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It's a totally natural response 
to that kind of treatment or 

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those kinds of experiences. 
Loss or abandonment is also a 

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big factor in what leads to the 
development of an avoidant 

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attachment style. 
This also teaches self-reliance 

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and wires toward protection over
connection. 

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If someone leaves you or there's
a history of people leaving you,

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of course you would learn to 
become self reliant. 

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Being abandoned once or many 
times will cause us to protect 

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our heart and cause us to 
potentially atrophy when it 

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comes to being able to be with 
our emotional experience. 

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Repeated rejection, betrayal, or
abuse can also come into play 

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here. 
There's a lot of different 

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flavors of trauma that lead to 
the development of avoidant 

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attachment, but these are some 
of the most common. 

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Here's a good way of looking at 
avoidant attachment, and it 

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comes from Julie Manano, who is 
the author of Secure Love. 

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She says, quote, avoidant 
attachment isn't I don't need 

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you. 
It's often I want you. 

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And closeness feels risky. 
When things get too close, the 

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nervous system of an avoidant 
attacher can interpret it as 

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danger. 
I'll fail you, I'll be ashamed, 

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I'll lose myself, I'll get 
trapped. 

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So that nervous system protects 
with distance. 

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Understanding that doesn't 
excuse hurtful behavior, but it 

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does give you a doorway into 
change. 

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Think it's also important to 
note that many people will 

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equate avoid an attachment with 
emotional unavailability. 

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That's because avoidant 
attachers tend to have a pretty 

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low threshold when it comes to 
emotional exposure or 

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vulnerability. 
That vulnerability is very 

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triggering for them. 
And it's also important to note 

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that this can vary from person 
to person. 

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Not all avoidance are the same. 
There are degrees to this. 

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There are Shades of Grey to 
this. 

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Just like not all anxious 
attachers are the same and no 

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two people are the same. 
That is also true and applies to

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avoidant attachers. 
So do your best not to judge all

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avoidant attachers as being 
exactly the same. 

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They are not. 
Try to find more nuance than 

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that folks. 
Please, I beg you. 

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All right, next, let's talk 
about the avoidance nervous 

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system and the role of 
deactivating strategies because 

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this comes into play when you're
relating with someone with an 

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avoidant attachment style. 
This is a big part of why this 

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is triggering for anxious 
attachers. 

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So before we go further, it's 
essential to speak about how the

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nervous system of someone with 
an avoidant attachment style is 

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wired. 
I always try to bring it back to

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nervous system regulation and 
dysregulation because that's at 

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the core of what drives insecure
attachment of all kinds. 

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Anxious, avoidant and 
disorganized. 

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But that said, avoidance Learn 
early on in life that closeness 

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equals threat. 
This is not a conscious choice 

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or intentional behavior. 
It often happens below the 

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threshold or level of conscious 
awareness. 

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They have no idea that this is 
what they are doing. 

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That's because it's a survival 
adaptation. 

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It's a stress or trauma 
response. 

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Think of it as having that low 
threshold for emotional intimacy

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that I mentioned just a couple 
moments ago. 

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That threshold is much smaller 
than that of someone with a 

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secure or anxious attachment 
style. 

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When closeness starts to exceed 
the avoidance window of 

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tolerance, their nervous system 
becomes activated and initiates 

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A protective or survival 
response. 

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This is precisely when avoidant 
attachers lean on deactivating 

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strategies, several examples of 
which I will provide 

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momentarily. 
These are attempts to create 

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actual physical distance or 
perceived emotional distance as 

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a means of regulating and coming
back down into their window of 

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tolerance, back within the 
threshold of what feels safe to 

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them. 
So looking at this through the 

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lens of safety, you can start to
have and maybe cultivate some 

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empathy for an avoidant attacher
because they're doing this 

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because it does not feel safe 
for them to go to that level of 

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depth. 
Again, there are degrees to 

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this. 
Every person is going to have 

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different levels that they can 
access emotionally. 

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So this varies widely. 
OK, Please remember that. 

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That leads us to talking about 
triggers, because triggers are 

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what activate the nervous system
and cause it to go into 

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dysregulation over repeated 
experiences of these triggers. 

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Criticism is by far one of the 
biggest triggers for an avoidant

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attacher. 
If you are coming for their 

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00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,320
character, their actions, if 
you're judging them, that is 

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going to be incredibly 
triggering for someone with an 

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00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,080
avoidant attachment style. 
Please know this as an anxious 

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attacher. 
Reduce the criticism y'all. 

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Any attempts to control or 
manipulate them. 

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This. 
Really goes to the point of. 

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Of desiring a lot of 
independence and autonomy, not 

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00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,920
feeling trapped or contained by 
a relationship. 

247
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So if you're trying to control 
them or how they behave, that's 

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going to be very, very 
triggering for an avoidant. 

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If they feel like someone is 
overly dependent or reliant upon

250
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,040
them, is quote UN quote needy. 
This is coming from the 

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00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,000
avoidance perspective. 
But they can feel like if you 

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don't have other relationships 
outside of the one that you have

253
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with them, or if you're 
constantly leaning on them, 

254
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,120
constantly asking for 
reassurance, constantly 

255
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,880
depending on them, then that can
feel really scary to them 

256
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,680
because again, they're afraid 
they're going to let you down. 

257
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They have a big shame or 
inadequacy wound from growing up

258
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,240
typically. 
So this is a big one for them, 

259
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,960
also related but a little bit 
different, emotional intensity 

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00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,280
and vulnerability. 
This speaks to that smaller 

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00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,920
window of tolerance, that lower 
threshold that we were just 

262
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,840
talking about when it comes to 
their nervous system. 

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00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,920
If you are coming on strong 
right out the gate, if you just 

264
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,160
met them, they're going to have 
a good amount of capacity at the

265
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,200
start, which is why many of us 
as anxious attachers are trying 

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00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,480
to recapture this golden era of 
the relationship that typically 

267
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,040
occurred at the beginning before
the avoidant attacher exited 

268
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,080
their window of tolerance, 
before they surpassed their 

269
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,720
threshold here. 
But intensity emotionally or any

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00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,160
kind of vulnerability that 
surpasses that window of 

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00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,720
tolerance or that threshold that
that individual possesses will 

272
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,360
be very triggering for them and 
cause them to shut down, 

273
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,600
withhold, distract distance, 
etcetera. 

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00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,520
And we'll get into some of those
deactivating strategies in a 

275
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,760
moment. 
Lastly here, although of course 

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00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,640
not least, feeling forced to do 
something with no choice to 

277
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participate. 
I always tell my coaching 

278
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,560
clients who are in relationships
with someone who is avoidant, 

279
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,040
you've got to give them the 
choice to walk through the door,

280
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,880
open the door for them, invite 
them in, but give the avoidant 

281
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,080
the choice to say no. 
They have to feel like it's 

282
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,160
their choice. 
Otherwise they're going to feel 

283
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,319
manipulated, forced, backed into
a corner, trapped. 

284
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:08,920
And those are very, very scary 
propositions for them that 

285
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,640
caused them to protect and take 
them out of a space of 

286
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,480
connection. 
OK, so without further ado, 

287
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,720
let's talk about deactivating 
strategies. 

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00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,119
And when I say deactivating 
strategies, these are 

289
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:24,040
specifically ways, techniques, 
actions, behaviors that someone 

290
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,920
with an avoidant attachment 
style will engage in in order to

291
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,360
bring them back down into their 
window of tolerance from a 

292
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:35,880
nervous system standpoint. 
Number one, criticizing or 

293
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,560
nitpicking a partner. 
I know how ironic it is since 

294
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,320
criticism is so deeply hurtful 
for the avoidant, but they will 

295
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,760
nitpick or criticize the 
partner, not always verbally, 

296
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,080
sometimes it's going on in their
mind, but they will do this in 

297
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,600
order to create emotional 
distance so that they feel more 

298
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,000
comfortable, calmer within that 
window of tolerance. 

299
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,600
So some examples would be 
thinking to themselves or saying

300
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,920
directly to their partner that 
they are needy. 

301
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,400
This person so needy, why are 
they reaching out again? 

302
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:17,080
Why can't they just let me be? 
Sound familiar? 

303
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,000
OK, next, many avoidant 
attachers will fantasize in 

304
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,240
their mind about being better 
off alone. 

305
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,320
This is a way for them to 
deactivate their attachment 

306
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,000
system and try to come back to 
baseline. 

307
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,560
This really shouldn't come as a 
surprise though, right? 

308
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,000
Because as someone who deeply 
values independence, autonomy, 

309
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,400
self-reliance, believing they're
better off alone actually is a 

310
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:46,920
core belief that they possess. 
And it's reinforced in history 

311
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,760
of relationships, typically for 
them where they've felt like 

312
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,160
they can't really be themselves 
or when they have that that 

313
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,080
hasn't been valued or 
appreciated. 

314
00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,640
Another deactivating strategy is
stonewalling or giving the cold 

315
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,360
shoulder. 
In other words, shutting down 

316
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,720
emotionally, just completely 
distancing themselves, not 

317
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,600
speaking to you, or even 
potentially ghosting. 

318
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,760
This is a deactivating strategy.
They're trying to come back down

319
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,920
to a baseline from a nervous 
system standpoint, and I know 

320
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,720
it's hard to not take this 
personally. 

321
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,640
Of course you're going to feel 
things in response, especially 

322
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,760
if you're an anxious attacher. 
But this is ultimately not about

323
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,480
you. 
They're doing this because they 

324
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,360
feel very deeply. 
The intensity that they're 

325
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:36,320
experiencing internally is a 
kind of screaming that in order 

326
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,840
to quiet it, they have learned 
they need to take space. 

327
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,520
They cannot talk to you, they 
cannot go there emotionally. 

328
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,240
It doesn't feel safe. 
Deliberately not responding to 

329
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,240
messages creates distance of all
kinds, emotionally, physically, 

330
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,200
etcetera. 
Abruptly leaving with no 

331
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,800
indication of when they'll 
return. 

332
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,120
This is literally physically 
distancing yourself. 

333
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,920
This could be. 
Indicative of a flight response 

334
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,040
in the nervous system. 
Next one is a biggie. 

335
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:07,840
Using sex substances and other 
numbing techniques to mitigate 

336
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,080
their level of emotional 
availability. 

337
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,320
So if you're dating someone with
an avoidant attachment style, 

338
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,560
they might potentially go out 
and hook up with other people. 

339
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,320
Which I know is hurtful to think
about, trust me, I get it. 

340
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,600
But these are real things that 
avoidance will do in order to 

341
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,360
make themselves not feel so 
emotionally exposed. 

342
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,000
And last but not least, avoidant
attachers will keep romantic 

343
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,520
relationships casual and 
undefined. 

344
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,160
They want things to be easygoing
or easy, right? 

345
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,600
Like I mentioned earlier, they 
don't want things to feel like 

346
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,920
it's a ton of work. 
They want it to feel easy, 

347
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,680
casual status quo. 
So let's talk about how the 

348
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,520
avoidant is similar to and 
different from folks with an 

349
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,560
anxious or disorganized 
attachment style. 

350
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,200
It's actually very common to 
think of anxious and avoidant 

351
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,680
attachment as opposites, and 
I've even referred to them that 

352
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,040
way in my work. 
But I want to challenge you to 

353
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,240
think about it differently here.
They're actually two sides of 

354
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,960
the same wound because both 
styles are organized around fear

355
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040
and both are trying to avoid 
pain. 

356
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,960
They just use mirror image 
strategies to try to manage 

357
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,240
their fear and mitigate that 
pain. 

358
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,680
The anxious person pursues 
connection to regulate because 

359
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,520
to them or us as anxious 
attachers, closeness feels like 

360
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:39,440
safety. 
Latching on causes us to be able

361
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,600
to calm or soothe ourselves. 
The avoidant distances to 

362
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,040
regulate because to them space 
is safety. 

363
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,880
But neither strategy truly 
works. 

364
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,760
Latching on or just completely 
pushing someone away because 

365
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,360
both are expressions of the 
nervous system trying to protect

366
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:03,560
itself from the same underlying 
fear of not being loved safely. 

367
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,920
This is very important because 
it can create a bridge between 

368
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,480
anxious and avoidant. 
You're both afraid. 

369
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,920
You're both protecting. 
That's a commonality that can 

370
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,840
create a sense of being a team 
instead of each of you being a 

371
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,720
threat to the other. 
Here's a key reframe for anxious

372
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,840
listeners who feel the avoidant 
doesn't care. 

373
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,440
The avoidant cares deeply, very 
deeply. 

374
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,960
They're just regulating in the 
opposite direction. 

375
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,280
In fact, avoidance will only 
distance themselves when they 

376
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,520
care deeply. 
It seems irrational, I know, but

377
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:44,200
it is true. 
Them distancing themselves is a 

378
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,440
reflection of how deeply they 
care about you, of how intense 

379
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,720
their emotions are around the 
circumstances that involve you. 

380
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,440
Big reframe there. 
The. 

381
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,240
Disorganized attacher contains 
both the anxious and avoidant 

382
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,640
tendencies simultaneously. 
Their internal experience looks 

383
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,600
something like this I. 
Want you close? 

384
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,720
Now you're too close and I need 
to flee. 

385
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,160
I've fled and now I miss you. 
Come back. 

386
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,440
This Jekyll and Hyde behavior 
isn't manipulation. 

387
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,520
It's actually a reflection of a 
nervous system that's never 

388
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,920
found a stable strategy for 
managing closeness. 

389
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,720
So the pendulum swings from one 
extreme to the other in an 

390
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,760
attempt to try to find that 
stability, although rarely if 

391
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,840
ever does it find it, because 
that unpredictability and 

392
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,760
instability can't create the 
stability that it is seeking. 

393
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,080
Next, we need to talk about the 
anxious avoidant dynamic, or 

394
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:50,920
trap as it's sometimes referred 
to on this topic, Pia Melody, 

395
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,400
who's the author of Facing Love 
Addiction, writes. 

396
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,000
It could be said that the love 
addict is a kind of liberal 

397
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,040
about relationships, and the 
love avoidant is a kind of 

398
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,520
conservative. 
Love addicts are constantly 

399
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,360
seeking change to improve things
in the relationship and to get 

400
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,640
what they want, more contact or 
care. 

401
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,840
On the other hand, love 
avoidance want acceptance of the

402
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,600
status quo, and so they work to 
keep the relationship stable, 

403
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,440
predictable and unemotional. 
Love avoidance don't see change 

404
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,440
as an advantage. 
Love addicts think that love 

405
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,880
avoidance are the problem 
because they won't change. 

406
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,400
But when the love avoidant 
contemplates a change requested 

407
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,520
by the love addict, the love 
avoidant thinks that to change 

408
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,400
is to capitulate or to be 
controlled by somebody else. 

409
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,120
Stalemate. 
The love avoidant avoids 

410
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:48,800
intimacy and is hypersensitive 
to any sense of being 

411
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,680
controlled. 
The love addict seeks enmeshment

412
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,320
and is hypersensitive to any 
sense of being left. 

413
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,200
I mean, talk about a mic drop 
moment. 

414
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,080
And by the way, when PM Melody 
says Love Addict, she's 

415
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,480
referring to the anxious 
attacher. 

416
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,640
In her book Facing Love 
Addiction, she speaks directly 

417
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,760
to anxious attachers about how 
anxious attachment can actually 

418
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,920
be described as love addiction. 
I've talked about this 

419
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,520
previously on the show, so it 
should be no surprise to those 

420
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,040
of you who are caught up on the 
episodes, but I wanted to 

421
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,960
clarify that before we proceed 
here. 

422
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,240
But why is the anxious avoidant 
dynamic so hard to escape? 

423
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,760
It is because it's a self 
reinforcing feedback loop and 

424
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,240
each person's protection 
strategy is actively causing the

425
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,360
other person to employ their 
own. 

426
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,920
In other words, they're 
triggering one another. 

427
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,800
Here's how it plays out. 
The anxious partner feels 

428
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,440
distance and responds by 
pursuing more, more emotional 

429
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,000
bids, more requests for 
reassurance. 

430
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,600
The avoidant partner feels 
pressured and trapped and 

431
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,280
responds by withdrawing. 
They go quiet, they pull back. 

432
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,800
They createspace in a number of 
different ways, using 

433
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,920
deactivating strategies. 
That withdrawal spikes the 

434
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,080
anxious partners fear of 
abandonment, naturally, which 

435
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,120
only intensifies their pursuit. 
The increased intensity from the

436
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,640
anxious person spikes the 
avoidant partners fear of being 

437
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,640
controlled or consumed, which 
intensifies the withdrawal, and 

438
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,160
on and on it goes. 
It spirals downward from there. 

439
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,360
Each person is doing exactly 
what their nervous system taught

440
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,520
them to do, and each person's 
response is confirming the 

441
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,840
other's worst fear to the 
avoidant. 

442
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,200
The anxious partners pursuit is 
essentially saying you're being 

443
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,640
smothered to the anxious person.
The avoidant partners withdrawal

444
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,720
is essentially saying you're 
being abandoned. 

445
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,640
Neither of them is trying to 
trigger the other, but of course

446
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,320
both of them are. 
This is why understanding the 

447
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,800
anxious avoidant trap matters so
much. 

448
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Because you can't. 
Interrupt something you can't 

449
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,720
see. 
Once you see it, you have a 

450
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,040
choice, and that's where healing
begins. 

451
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,000
Now I want to talk about the 
relationship between Carrie and 

452
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,240
Big on Sex and the City, just 
briefly, because in my opinion, 

453
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,560
it's a prime example of how the 
anxious and avoidant attachment 

454
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,360
styles trigger one another and 
exacerbate the worst fears in 

455
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:23,160
each of them. 
Since we're focusing on the 

456
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,960
avoidant attacher, let's hone in
on Big. 

457
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,160
Across several seasons of the 
show, he struggles to fully 

458
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,080
commit to Carrie. 
Every time she brings something 

459
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,920
emotional to him, he deflects 
and dismisses. 

460
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,040
He jokes and tries to keep 
things light. 

461
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,160
After years of breaking up and 
getting back together, he can't 

462
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,800
seem to surmount his fear of 
letting Carrie down or fully 

463
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,840
letting her in. 
It's actually really 

464
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,600
uncomfortable to watch when you 
do it through the lens of 

465
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,640
attachment theory or attachment 
science. 

466
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,960
We see Big continue to abandon 
Carrie and yet not be able to 

467
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,160
fully release her to be loved in
the ways that she desires. 

468
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,120
While this dynamic softens 
slightly in the And Just Like 

469
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,960
That reboot, the core relational
dynamic we see most intensely 

470
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,280
reflected in Sex in the City 
remains. 

471
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,920
This is not a good relationship 
to model after. 

472
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,680
Everyone please. 
I think it's easier to see in 

473
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,960
retrospect versus watching the 
show when it first came out, but

474
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,360
it is very apparent that they 
are in an anxious avoidant trap 

475
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:30,840
now. 
I want to get. 

476
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,240
To one of. 
Of my favorite parts of today, 

477
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:37,680
because I think it's very, very 
important to reframe this for 

478
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,920
those of us who are on the more 
anxious side of the attachment 

479
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,120
spectrum. 
And that is the avoidant as 

480
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,240
villain fallacy. 
If you have an anxious 

481
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,040
attachment style, you've likely 
thought to yourself, I'll never 

482
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,960
date another avoidant ever again
after experiencing the deep 

483
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,680
devastation of hot and cold 
behavior, inconsistent intimacy,

484
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,200
and emotional unavailability 
that being with an avoidant can 

485
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,880
present. 
You might have even said to 

486
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,280
yourself, I'll never put myself 
through that again. 

487
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,280
First, I just want to say I get 
it. 

488
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,400
I've experienced this first hand
more times than I'd ever care to

489
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,400
admit. 
I put a lot of my life out there

490
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,960
on the Internet and in books and
everywhere, so I've been very 

491
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,040
forthcoming that I've 
experienced this myself. 

492
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,360
So I really get it. 
Everyone OK. 

493
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,560
Some of my lowest points have 
been after the completion of a 

494
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,120
situation, ship, or a 
relationship with someone who is

495
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,880
dismissive, avoidant. 
But that is not what attachment 

496
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,200
theory is for. 
It's not for dismissing another 

497
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,320
group of people entirely based 
on a label that they identify 

498
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,560
with, which is completely 
dehumanizing. 

499
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,640
Ultimately, attachment styles 
and attachment science give us a

500
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,280
way to analyze. 
Our own relational history and 

501
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,520
defined a secure path forward 
for ourselves. 

502
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,760
That's honestly why it's so 
powerful. 

503
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,520
It's self informed and it's 
experience dependent so it meets

504
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,960
you where you are and when it's 
put into practice properly, it 

505
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,440
helps to propel you to a more 
secure place. 

506
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,160
That is the power of attachment 
theory. 

507
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,360
But when attachment science is 
weaponized against another 

508
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,400
insecure attachment style like 
the avoidant, it becomes 

509
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,960
problematic and reductive. 
I want to share a direct quote 

510
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,120
from my book Needy No More. 
Here goes quote. 

511
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,240
Avoidant attachers tend to have 
a bad rap, perhaps catching the 

512
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,640
most Flack of any of the 
attachment styles. 

513
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,680
That's because they present as 
emotionally undisturbed and 

514
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,640
unusually unbothered. 
But it's all too easy to mistake

515
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,520
this facade as fact instead of 
the farce that it actually is. 

516
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,000
Avoidant attachers care deeply. 
They're just afraid to show it 

517
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,280
for fear of being manipulated or
controlled or feeling 

518
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,960
inadequate. 
They're just doing it because 

519
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,200
they don't want to get hurt. 
Avoidant attachers have 

520
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,080
experienced trauma too. 
It's about time we recognize and

521
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,400
validate it and stop blaming 
them for the ways in which they 

522
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,240
learned how to survive. 
Here's the harsh truth everyone.

523
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,760
I'm going to be real with you. 
While someone with a dismissive 

524
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,960
avoidant attachment style might 
be difficult to understand if 

525
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,280
you have an anxious or even 
secure attachment style as their

526
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,080
needs are counter to yours, that
does not mean they don't deserve

527
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,640
empathy because they do. 
But having said that, having 

528
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,680
compassion for avoidance does 
not mean tolerating harm. 

529
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,520
There's a difference between 
someone who's avoidant and 

530
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,200
actively doing their own work, 
someone who is avoidant and 

531
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,680
completely unaware of it, and 
someone who's avoidant seeming 

532
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,200
behavior is a cover for 
something more harmful, like 

533
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,080
narcissistic patterns, 
compulsive dishonesty, or 

534
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,200
emotional abuse. 
Understanding someone's wound 

535
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,240
doesn't require you to stay in 
the blast radius of it. 

536
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,000
Compassion can be extended at a 
distance. 

537
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,800
Remember that your resentment is
data. 

538
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,760
If extending compassion is 
costing you your sense of self, 

539
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,680
that's no longer compassion, 
it's self abandonment. 

540
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,800
We've talked about that on the 
show before. 

541
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,880
So if you've been burned by an 
avoidant or several avoidance, 

542
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,040
if you found yourself lying 
awake replaying conversations 

543
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,880
trying to figure out what you 
did wrong, quote UN quote, 

544
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,720
wondering why. 
Someone who seemed to care could

545
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,720
disappear so quickly. 
I want you to hear this clearly.

546
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,880
Their withdrawal was never 
really about you, it was about 

547
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,240
their nervous system, which 
learned long before you ever 

548
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,320
came along that closeness wasn't
safe. 

549
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,960
That doesn't mean the pain you 
experienced isn't real. 

550
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Wasn't real. 
It was and it is. 

551
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,840
It absolutely was and is. 
But directing your anger at the 

552
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,560
person rather than the pattern 
keeps you stuck. 

553
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,320
And I think we can all admit 
that you both deserve better 

554
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,000
than feeling stuck. 
Now, everything I do 

555
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,440
professionally from an 
attachment standpoint is about 

556
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,480
healing and growing more secure.
So I want to talk about some 

557
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,160
pathways for that to occur, 
first and foremost for the 

558
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,160
avoidant who wants to heal. 
So if you have someone in your 

559
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,120
life who you know is avoidant, 
send this to them because this 

560
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,160
is what they can and should 
focus on in their healing. 

561
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,560
And if you yourself are 
avoidant, please listen up 

562
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,840
closely. 
This is what you need to focus 

563
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,400
on in your healing, recognizing 
deactivating strategies as they 

564
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,480
happen. 
Awareness comes before change. 

565
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,320
Remember that awareness is 
always the first step to 

566
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,400
healing. 
So what are the ways that you 

567
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,120
deactivate? 
Write them down. 

568
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,080
Make an audit for yourself. 
Think about the most recent 

569
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120
times that you were triggered 
and you wanted to distance 

570
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,440
yourself or you got critical of 
that person. 

571
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,480
Whenever you deactivate, what 
caused you to get there? 

572
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,880
Next, you need to practice 
tolerance of closeness in small 

573
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,400
doses. 
You want to dose the nervous 

574
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,159
system and increase the exposure
to this slowly over time, 

575
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,360
gradually widening your window 
of tolerance. 

576
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,560
Remember we talked about how 
that window of tolerance has 

577
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,000
diminished from experiences in 
the past. 

578
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,320
There's that low threshold. 
In order to expand that, you're 

579
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,520
going to need to practice being 
close with other people and 

580
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,840
showing your nervous system that
it's not a threat. 

581
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,480
That closeness doesn't mean that
you'll be left, that you'll be 

582
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,880
criticized, that you're going to
lose yourself. 

583
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaking of threats, it is 
essential that you learn to see 

584
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,760
other people's needs for clarity
and communication in your life 

585
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,440
as natural and not a threat to 
your sense of self. 

586
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,120
People need to know where they 
stand when you go quiet. 

587
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,360
When you distance yourself and 
take space unannounced without 

588
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,000
being clear about when you'll 
return, that's very triggering 

589
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,520
for other people. 
It does not mean that the space 

590
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,240
you are taking is bad, but it 
does mean that you could be more

591
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,400
clear about when you'll re 
engage. 

592
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,040
You might not know that, but at 
least giving someone some 

593
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,240
clarity about hey, I think I 
might need a couple of days. 

594
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:34,120
Why don't we touch base on 
Friday? 

595
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Could go a long way for you. 
So open up and communicate. 

596
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,640
And yes, there are going to be 
people who get defensive and 

597
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,240
blow up at you and get mad. 
Please don't look at that as a 

598
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:48,040
reflection of whether or not 
your desire for space and your 

599
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,280
need for space is valid. 
Because it is. 

600
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,360
We all need space in a 
relationship, but we also need 

601
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,960
clarity around when we're going 
to see that person next. 

602
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,520
That provides the kind of safety
for someone to be able to give 

603
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,760
you that space. 
Becoming more comfortable with 

604
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,360
healthy dependency, which we've 
kind of been talking about 

605
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,920
throughout this. 
Leaning on others not meaning 

606
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,040
you're losing yourself is a big 
part of this. 

607
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,800
Micro dos it little by little 
depends where you wouldn't 

608
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,600
normally depend on someone. 
It's going to be uncomfortable 

609
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,080
but you have to retrain your 
nervous system and it only does 

610
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,160
that through experience. 
This next one is essential. 

611
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,960
You have to learn to self 
regulate which are already 

612
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,600
really good at by distancing and
Co regulate. 

613
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,200
Both are necessary for real 
intimacy. 

614
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,640
This is how we create 
interdependence instead of just 

615
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,480
independence. 
Learn how to self regulate and 

616
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,960
Co regulate. 
So learn how to be with your 

617
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,520
feelings and be with the 
feelings of others and also talk

618
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,000
about your feelings with them. 
We're not meant to be alone. 

619
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,760
We are a social species as 
humans. 

620
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,400
That also applies to you, even 
though you would would prefer 

621
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,360
that it didn't. 
Learning to communicate more 

622
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,840
clearly and vulnerably, 
especially when the impulse is 

623
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,800
to withdraw, is a big area of 
focus. 

624
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,560
Learning to center the emotional
experience of others, and not 

625
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,360
just your own comfort level, is 
a big one too. 

626
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,600
Because if you just leave when 
other people are experiencing 

627
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,440
emotions, the relationship can't
advance. 

628
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,080
It can't deepen. 
And I know some of you might 

629
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,520
feel more comfortable that way, 
but that said, it gets really 

630
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:31,840
lonely. 
It does. 

631
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,280
Working through your trauma with
a therapist, a coach or mental 

632
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,440
health professional is the last 
tip I recommend here. 

633
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,280
You don't have to do all of this
on your own. 

634
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,200
And I mean, that's a big take 
away from all of these points. 

635
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,800
Learning to Co regulate is about
opening up, learning to 

636
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,080
communicate to others, to honor 
other people's emotional 

637
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,040
experience. 
This is all about opening 

638
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,080
yourself back up. 
But in order to do that, you 

639
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,040
might need to work with a 
professional who can help you to

640
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,480
process some of the original 
wounding events, some of the 

641
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,600
protective patterns in your 
nervous system that cause you to

642
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,800
unconsciously behave in the ways
that you have or do. 

643
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,480
OK. 
Next is for the anxious attacher

644
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:19,840
who might be relating to someone
who is avoidant #1 do not chase,

645
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,040
do not pursue. 
And you've got to give them 

646
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,720
their space, and you have to 
mean it. 

647
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,000
That space holds value for you 
too. 

648
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,000
Please recognize that. 
Do not chase, do not pursue, do 

649
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,760
not fix the avoidant. 
First of all, looking at someone

650
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,240
is needing to be fixed is 
incredibly demeaning and 

651
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:42,560
demoralizing. 
So take the space. 

652
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,480
You're not going to like it. 
It's going to be really 

653
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,320
uncomfortable for you. 
But you also have to get in the 

654
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,360
discomfort in order to grow, 
just like we're asking the 

655
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,520
avoidant to do. 
But when I say you have to mean 

656
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,440
it, you have to mean it. 
You can't take the space as a 

657
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,960
tactical move to try to win over
an avoidant. 

658
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,960
You have to see the value of 
what it provides to you, even if

659
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,160
it's clarity about misalignment 
in that relationship. 

660
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,360
Another recommendation for our 
anxious attachers out there is 

661
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,360
to clarify expectations calmly 
and early when you first start 

662
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,040
dating, talk about 
communication, talk about 

663
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,080
affection, talk about intimacy. 
Talk about the things that 

664
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,040
matter most to you before you 
catch feelings, before you're 

665
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,080
afraid of losing that person and
so you're self abandoning. 

666
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,400
Any kind of ambiguity is going 
to amplify your anxiety, so keep

667
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,160
that in mind. 
Anxious attachers. 

668
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,400
This is a big one. 
Learn to communicate without 

669
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,720
escalating. 
Learning to communicate in a 

670
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:49,080
regulated, clear, direct way 
lands a whole hell of a lot 

671
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,720
better than when you are 
emotionally heightened. 

672
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,280
I always tell my clients the 
first movement is in words. 

673
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,920
So be with your feelings. 
Figure out what it is that you 

674
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,080
need. 
What is the unmet need 

675
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,880
underneath of the feelings that 
you are experiencing? 

676
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,960
Go to that person, Explain to 
them how it felt for you and 

677
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,160
what your experience was like. 
Try to bring them into it. 

678
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,960
Be clear about what would help 
you to feel safer, more 

679
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,520
appreciated, and more understood
in the future. 

680
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,000
If you can learn to do this, 
first of all, it'll help to weed

681
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,640
out people who just don't have 
the emotional maturity or 

682
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,280
intelligence, who don't have the
growth orientation or growth 

683
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,960
mindset that so many of us are 
seeking. 

684
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,560
So it is a way to assess 
alignment. 

685
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,240
And when you don't open up and 
communicate like an adult, not 

686
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:44,120
out of protest behavior, you 
actually sabotage yourself. 

687
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,280
It is a form of self sabotage 
for sure. 

688
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,880
So sharpen those skills and this
is the work that I do with my 

689
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,280
clients if you need someone to 
help. 

690
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,280
Last but not least, here for the
anxious attacher, you've got to 

691
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,040
understand that when you pursue 
the avoidant, it's likely making

692
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,240
the dynamic worse. 
Even when it feels necessary for

693
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:05,320
your sense of safety, go and 
connect elsewhere. 

694
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,280
Pursue safe spaces where you can
be held, supported, heard, or 

695
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,600
you can vent, or you can process
verbally, because many of us do 

696
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,800
that. 
But do not chase. 

697
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,600
As we talked about in the part 
about the anxious avoidant trap 

698
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,840
earlier, you're chasing only 
keeps you locked in the trap. 

699
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,360
Before I talk about the next 
thing, I actually just want to 

700
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,840
say this. 
A big part of relating securely 

701
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,440
to someone who is an avoidant 
attacher is knowing your own 

702
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,520
limits. 
Being honest with yourself about

703
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,040
when you've reached them is a 
big piece. 

704
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,280
So that brings us to something I
think is one of the most 

705
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,440
important and least discussed 
aspects of loving someone with 

706
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,120
an avoidant attachment style, 
and that is trying to find a 

707
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,760
balance between compassion and 
self abandonment. 

708
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,600
Compassion for an avoidant 
partner is wise, and it's 

709
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,080
healthy up to a point. 
The line is crossed when you 

710
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,680
find yourself constantly 
shrinking over accommodating or 

711
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,120
abandoning your own needs to 
avoid triggering the avoidance 

712
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,560
withdrawal. 
Your resentment is a reliable 

713
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,640
signal for this, by the way. 
So when it builds and builds and

714
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,880
builds, it's telling you 
something important about where 

715
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,480
your limits actually are, and 
that you might need to speak up 

716
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,120
about this. 
There's also a difference 

717
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,800
between being patient with 
someone's healing process and 

718
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,640
accepting a permanent ceiling on
intimacy. 1 is generosity, the 

719
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,520
other is self abandonment 
dressed up as love. 

720
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,880
I also want to talk about 
boundaries versus control 

721
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,640
because this is a big topic and 
I've covered boundaries versus 

722
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,280
requests and what boundaries are
and aren't in a previous 

723
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,680
episode. 
So if you want to do the deep 

724
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,280
dive, go back and listen to or 
watch that episode. 

725
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,360
But remember, a boundary is 
always about your behavior and 

726
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,800
your own limits, never about 
changing or punishing someone 

727
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,080
else. 
For example, you can say if you 

728
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,680
keep canceling, I'm going to 
stop making plans with you. 

729
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,560
That is a boundary. 
You're letting someone know I'm 

730
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,960
not going to be reaching out 
again. 

731
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,600
If you just keep canceling on 
me, I'm not going to tolerate 

732
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,320
that. 
Now, if you say to someone 

733
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,600
you're not allowed to see that 
person or that friend, that is 

734
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,200
control. 
You're trying to control the 

735
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,960
other person's behavior instead 
of being clear about your own. 

736
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,040
Anxious attachers tend to use 
sometimes the language of 

737
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,120
boundaries to describe what is 
actually an attempt to manage 

738
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,200
someone else's behavior, 
especially when that someone 

739
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,680
else is avoidant. 
That distinction matters 

740
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:36,480
enormously in these dynamics 
because to an avoidant, control 

741
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,320
and boundaries can feel 
identical and only one of them 

742
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,200
is legitimate, healthy, and 
secure. 

743
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,840
Only one of them is defensible 
and that is the boundary. 

744
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,840
OK, we're at the final section 
here for today's episode and 

745
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,520
this is AQ and a directly from 
the Needy No More Facebook 

746
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,040
group, my support group for 
anxious attachers. 

747
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,600
That's free on Facebook, so feel
free to seek that out if that 

748
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,600
would be helpful. 
And I'll drop a link to that in 

749
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,840
the show notes as well. 
The first submission comes from 

750
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:12,000
Gary who says we are 400 miles 
apart but message daily and Zoom

751
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,760
several hours every week. 
Then about once a year he needs 

752
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,760
a recalibration of the 
relationship. 

753
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,720
I'm messaging too much. 
I want more connection, then he 

754
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,200
needs space. 
He's overwhelmed and my messages

755
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,080
are distracting and he can't be 
present in his life. 

756
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,640
Then he wants to change to Zoom 
every other week. 

757
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,040
I always accommodate. 
We both see other people for 

758
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,280
physical intimacy because of the
distance. 

759
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,200
Then last week it was our week 
to talk. 

760
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,560
He'd had another weekend with 
the same guy, which was the 8th 

761
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,280
in a row. 
He uses this guy to run away 

762
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,560
from his responsibilities every 
weekend. 

763
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,760
We were scheduled to talk on 
Monday at 7:00, but I knew he'd 

764
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,400
be tired from the weekend 
because he doesn't sleep well 

765
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,000
when he shares a bed. 
He wanted to push to Tuesday at 

766
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,360
7:00 and I said fine. 
Then on Tuesday at 5:15 he 

767
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,440
messaged asking if I could talk 
at 5:45. 

768
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,640
That a guy just contacted him to
hook up and he's only in town 

769
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,480
tonight. 
Not only was it last minute and 

770
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,760
I was busy, but he was bailing 
on a scheduled meeting to hook 

771
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,760
up with a stranger. 
I said no, have fun. 

772
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Then out of nowhere he said he 
wanted to take a break from 

773
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,800
communicating with me because of
my terse negative responses. 

774
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:31,200
All I did was hold a boundary. 
He cancelled and I either took 

775
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,600
his only time offered or 
nothing. 

776
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,200
Then three hours later he was 
messaging which I ignored. 

777
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,600
The next morning he messaged 
saying it seems like we're going

778
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,040
to keep triggering each other 
which causes unnecessary 

779
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,840
suffering which to me just 
sounded like let's just end this

780
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,480
friendship slash relationship 
after five years. 

781
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,240
A day later it's as if nothing 
happened. 

782
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,960
I wanted to let some time pass 
before we discussed what 

783
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,040
happened which I think we will 
do on Monday night. 

784
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,280
I'm an anxious attachment and he
is fearful avoidant. 

785
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,960
I'm constantly working on my 
issues and he is not and thinks 

786
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:11,280
it's all me. 
Wow, Gary, first of all, I'm 

787
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,920
sending you a huge hug. 
OK? 

788
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,840
Remember that someone with a 
fearful avoidant attachment 

789
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,320
style is the most unpredictable 
of all of the attachment styles.

790
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,120
They're going to swing from one 
extreme to the other, closeness 

791
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,160
to space needing you to not 
needing you. 

792
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,360
There's a lot of volatility here
and I can see why you wouldn't 

793
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,880
appreciate these multiple 
switching of plans and the last 

794
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,680
minute request to meet in 1/2 an
hour and talk with the 

795
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,960
justification that this person 
that you're talking to and in a 

796
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,280
relationship with wanted to hook
up with somebody else. 

797
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,080
I imagine that could be 
triggering on some level for 

798
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,000
you. 
So I just want to validate that 

799
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,400
first and foremost, OK? 
The instability, the lack of 

800
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,080
clarity, the last minute 
changes, they're all very 

801
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,960
triggering to Someone Like You 
and someone like us as anxious 

802
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,240
attachers. 
So please hear me when I say 

803
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:12,040
that first and foremost, you are
right to feel unsafe. 

804
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,640
However, as always, I'm going to
gently and compassionately share

805
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,320
some ways that you might have 
also exacerbated some of this. 

806
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:26,480
When you say no, have fun, that 
is protest behavior. 

807
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,080
You don't actually want him to 
have fun. 

808
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,680
You want to connect with him. 
You wanted to speak with him. 

809
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,920
So learning to say in that 
moment, hey, I'm busy, I already

810
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,120
have other commitments, but let 
me know when later tonight or 

811
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,400
another time when we might be 
able to connect. 

812
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,080
That would be what you truly 
desired. 

813
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,920
You wanted to connect. 
You were feeling hurt about the 

814
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,480
changes and about the lack of 
connection. 

815
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,200
But this gets in the way when 
you're not honest about what it 

816
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,640
is that you truly need and 
desire that only prevents you 

817
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,840
from getting that need or desire
met. 

818
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,000
When I see here as well that he 
messaged 3 hours later and you 

819
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,840
ignored and then he messaged the
next morning and it triggered 

820
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,640
you, Yeah, ignoring is never 
good. 

821
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,160
It's emotionally immature. 
You always want to be honest and

822
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,240
upfront. 
So if you needed space, you need

823
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,360
to learn to say that, hey, I'm 
still feeling a little bit hurt 

824
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,040
about some of the last minute 
changes here and I just need 

825
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,040
some time and space to process. 
That's real, that's honest. 

826
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,720
You're not too much for feeling 
the way that you feel, but you 

827
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:36,440
need to learn to work with that 
energy too. 

828
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,480
And again, a lot of the way that
this relationship is structured 

829
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,560
is very challenging with the 
physical distance, with all of 

830
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,040
the unpredictability of this 
dynamic. 

831
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,320
You should likely ask yourself 
or be asking yourself what's 

832
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,960
keeping you in this because it 
almost felt to me when I first 

833
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,800
read this and when I read it out
loud, like there's just less and

834
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,440
less intimacy that's happening 
here. 

835
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,840
You're both seeking physical 
intimacy elsewhere. 

836
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,200
Open relationships are fine, but
that's one less form of 

837
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,080
intimacy. 
The physical distance, the 

838
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,120
reduction in the amount of 
communication. 

839
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,720
Going from Zooming several hours
every week and messaging daily 

840
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,120
and then recalibrating the 
relationship once a year or 

841
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,320
reducing to changing to Zoom 
every other week. 

842
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,160
I mean, it's really hard to find
your footing when that footing 

843
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:35,960
and foundation are constantly 
changing. 

844
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,800
So you have to ask yourself, is 
this relationship aligned in the

845
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,400
ways that you need, Gary? 
So please reflect on that. 

846
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,000
Next up is Heather. 
I keep thinking the avoidant is 

847
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,920
Jekyll and Hyde. 
One minute they're all in and 

848
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,120
saying good things, and then the
next they are calling us names 

849
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:55,840
or using blame and then they 
run. 

850
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,640
Some come back and some stay 
gone. 

851
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,720
Look, I hear you. 
It's really challenging 

852
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:05,120
sometimes to experience that 
unpredictability. 

853
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,880
One minute it feels great, the 
next minute they're gone. 

854
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,600
I get that. 
I named that in the opening 

855
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,600
monologue for today's episode. 
So I've been there and I totally

856
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,880
understand. 
That said, Jekyll and Hyde is 

857
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,360
usually more of a description of
the fearful avoidant or 

858
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,520
disorganized attacher. 
Because they're shifting from 

859
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,120
one strategy to the other, 
neither feels truly stable to 

860
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,800
them, and so they'll swap from 
hour to hour or day-to-day or 

861
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,440
week to week or month to month. 
Additionally, just like we've 

862
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,120
explored today, someone 
operating one way one minute and

863
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,720
then changing another is a 
reflection of their nervous 

864
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:47,160
systems capacity. 
Now, if they're not actively 

865
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,720
working on expanding that 
capacity, then you might need to

866
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,880
ask yourself if it's the right 
relationship for you and if it's

867
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,560
aligned in the ways that you 
might need. 

868
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,080
You're right, some are going to 
run and come back and then some 

869
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,760
will stay gone. 
It's never about conflict, but 

870
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,200
rather always about repair. 
So if someone can come back 

871
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,720
after behaving that way and take
ownership and then really truly 

872
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:13,720
work and show you overtime that 
they're trying to be healthier, 

873
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,760
it might be worth exploring that
relationship further. 

874
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,200
But ultimately that's up to you.
This observation about Jekyll 

875
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,320
and Hyde does tend to apply more
to a disorganized attacher 

876
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,040
though, but I could see why you 
would apply it in certain 

877
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,120
instances with a dismissive 
avoidant. 

878
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,320
Amanda says. 
My partner of three months left 

879
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,840
2 1/2 weeks ago after acting 
happy the entire time. 

880
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,320
The 180 turn was a matter of 
days. 

881
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,320
He reported feeling depressed 
and was gone with a text to 

882
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,360
break up after the weekend to 
ourselves. 

883
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,960
I don't know if that's avoidant,
but others have pointed out it 

884
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,520
might be. 
He never tried to suggest 

885
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,040
anything he wanted differently 
in the relationship. 

886
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,560
That's so tough. 
That's so tough. 

887
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,640
That three month period when 
you're first dating someone and 

888
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,720
getting to know them is 
essential. 

889
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,360
Essential. 
The three month rule is kind of 

890
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,440
a golden standard for a reason 
because usually folks can't wear

891
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:11,080
a mask beyond that. 
So the mask came off, you saw 

892
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,480
that this person didn't have the
capacity that you thought that 

893
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,760
they might have. 
This person isn't coming to you 

894
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,320
and suggesting ways that you 
could better meet his needs, 

895
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,160
which is helpful. 
We all need that. 

896
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,480
None of us come with an 
instruction manual of how to be 

897
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,520
loved. 
We have to teach other people 

898
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,520
what works for us. 
So if someone's not doing that, 

899
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,400
they're also self sabotaging in 
some way. 

900
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,080
So you have to recognize these 
signs for what they are, 

901
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,280
misalignment. 
This doesn't have to be a 

902
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,920
judgement of this person. 
This doesn't have to be 

903
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,520
indictment of their character, 
but it likely means for you, 

904
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:53,560
it's not the right fit, which is
hard to come to terms with. 

905
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,160
You're going to feel some things
in response to the way that you 

906
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,640
were treated here. 
That's absolutely natural. 

907
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,520
Take some time and space to 
process those feelings and seek 

908
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,800
out your own support as well. 
I always think it's essential to

909
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,360
look at the ways that we can 
also improve in a relationship. 

910
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:14,320
So take this as an opportunity 
to assess, looking back at your 

911
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,880
string of relationships and your
relational history, the ways in 

912
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,160
which you can show up healthier 
as well. 

913
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,080
Always an opportunity. 
Anita asks, what are their needs

914
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,560
in a relationship? 
I covered this earlier in 

915
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,440
today's episode, but space, 
connection, support, autonomy, 

916
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,600
independence, someone who can be
patient with them, all very 

917
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,200
important for and avoid an 
attacher. 

918
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,440
All right, We had an anonymous 
submission. 

919
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,120
Do they avoid an attachers 
actually think about us or miss 

920
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,000
us or have loving feelings? 
If so, when, before, during or 

921
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,080
after meeting? 
Or is it all a distant upper 

922
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,200
level oxytocin and serotonin 
level achievement for them? 

923
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,840
Only when they meet their 
partners physically and those 

924
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,920
who agree to boundaries but then
don't follow them through, what 

925
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,320
is happening with them and how 
to handle that situation? 

926
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:06,440
Should chances be given or 
should we drop them? 

927
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,160
There's a lot of buzzwords here,
but I want to try to distill 

928
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,680
this down to what it's actually 
trying to do. 

929
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:17,800
You're trying to get clarity 
around if, when, and how an 

930
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,680
avoidant can show you that they 
care and if they're not 

931
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,840
responding well to your 
boundaries, what you should do. 

932
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,640
Those are the two things I'm 
taking away from this. 

933
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,040
So first and foremost, as we 
discussed earlier in today's 

934
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:37,800
episode, an avoidant will only 
distance or deactivate when they

935
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,880
are outside of their window of 
tolerance, when the level of 

936
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,720
emotional exposure surpasses 
their capacity. 

937
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,400
So actually, when they 
disengage, it's a good sign that

938
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,040
that person is actually feeling 
very deeply about you. 

939
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,000
And I know it doesn't make a 
whole lot of sense and I know it

940
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,800
doesn't feel good, but learning 
to see that person's distancing 

941
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,280
as their indication that they're
overwhelmed emotionally and that

942
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,040
they feel very deeply can help 
you to cultivate some empathy 

943
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,080
for them and to work with them 
through those reactions as a 

944
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,320
team, right, In the spirit of 
creating a healthier connection 

945
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,840
and breaking the anxious 
avoidant trap. 

946
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,760
So you say to those who agree to
boundaries, but then don't 

947
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,720
follow them through, what is 
happening with them, how to 

948
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,880
handle that situation? 
I mean, at the end of the day, 

949
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,520
we have to reiterate boundaries 
to folks. 

950
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,760
It's not just a one and done 
kind of thing. 

951
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,680
And for many avoidant attachers,
like I mentioned a bit ago, 

952
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,520
boundaries feel confining, they 
feel constraining, they feel 

953
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,520
like they're trapping them. 
So help them to understand that 

954
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,840
this is not about controlling 
their behavior, that it is about

955
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,960
creating a safer connection for 
you. 

956
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,480
And remember, boundaries are 
about your behavior, not about 

957
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,240
theirs. 
Should chances be given or 

958
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:02,280
should we drop them? 
I mean, ultimately the number of

959
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,400
chances you give depends on the 
connection, the person you're 

960
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,320
with, how long you've been 
together, the indication or 

961
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,800
demonstration that they're 
working on themselves, that 

962
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,200
they're working with you on the 
relationship. 

963
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,840
Should chances be given? 
I mean, yes, I don't think this 

964
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,320
should be like a you violated my
boundary and now I'm ending the 

965
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,760
relationship. 
But I think you reiterate with a

966
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:29,080
stern tone and say to them, hey,
you know, I'm not really 

967
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,840
understanding what's getting in 
the way here. 

968
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,240
Can you help me understand why 
this might be difficult for you?

969
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,640
OK, next, Mary, how can they be 
happy to see you? 

970
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,640
Hugs, kisses. 
I love you one minute and that 

971
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,960
discard you an hour later. 
Literally an hour. 

972
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,240
Were the entire three years we 
were together all an act? 

973
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,720
Did they actually feel nothing 
the entire time? 

974
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,480
No. 
Again, I know the exterior, 

975
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,080
which is a facade of an avoidant
can make it seem like they're 

976
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:55,400
unbothered. 
They don't care. 

977
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,760
They don't feel anything, but 
they are feeling a lot. 

978
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,640
Their switch up from saying I 
love you one minute to 

979
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,360
discarding you an hour later 
demonstrates their capacity. 

980
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,120
It doesn't demonstrate the level
of care. 

981
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,040
Please know they care very 
deeply, but a lot of avoidance, 

982
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,000
not all. 
Again, there are shades to this,

983
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:19,000
but many avoidance out there 
don't have the tools or the 

984
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,960
capacity. 
They didn't have this modeled 

985
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,360
for them and they haven't sought
it out for themselves or learned

986
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,080
how to apply it. 
So you can see that with empathy

987
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,320
from a distance. 
If that's how this person is 

988
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,320
going to treat you, it does 
naturally beg the question, are 

989
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,960
they coming back to repair? 
Are they taking accountability 

990
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,160
for creating volatility? 
How do they respond to this? 

991
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,280
Or do they just never reach out 
again? 

992
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,080
Because if so, then you have 
your answer about where you 

993
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,880
stand. 
The confusion is the clarity. 

994
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,880
Pamela, how can you tell if 
someone is either an avoidant, a

995
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,800
sex addict, or has narcissistic 
personality disorder? 

996
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,200
This is a complex question. 
I'm going to do my best to 

997
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,680
answer it at a very high level, 
given that I'm not a licensed 

998
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,440
mental health professional. 
OK, but someone with an avoidant

999
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,320
attachment style can access 
empathy. 

1000
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,160
Someone with a narcissistic 
personality disorder struggles 

1001
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,040
to do so. 
The avoidant, remember, has 

1002
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,560
learned to protect. 
But it doesn't mean that they 

1003
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,920
cannot connect. 
The narcissist will protect. 

1004
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,000
They'll deflect too. 
They'll turn everything around 

1005
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:33,080
on you. 
So there are similarities, but 

1006
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,440
narcissistic personality 
disorder is extreme. 

1007
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,360
It is rare, although words like 
toxic and narcissistic are 

1008
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,080
thrown around all the time. 
I would say narcissistic 

1009
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:48,440
personality disorder is of 
unchecked avoidant attachment 

1010
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,920
and more specifically the trauma
that causes avoidant attachment 

1011
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,760
that has become so deeply 
ingrained in the nervous system 

1012
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,200
that the levels of protection 
are impossible to breakthrough. 

1013
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,960
Sex addict. 
We talked about how folks with 

1014
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,360
an avoidant attachment style 
will sometimes use sex to 

1015
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,880
mitigate the level of emotional 
intimacy or exposure in the 

1016
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,600
relationship. 
But sex addiction is another 

1017
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,560
thing entirely. 
OK, not all avoidance are sex 

1018
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,200
addicts. 
Not all avoidance are 

1019
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,680
narcissists. 
While an avoidant attacher is to

1020
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,920
some degree emotionally 
unavailable. 

1021
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,040
As is the anxious attacher, by 
the way. 

1022
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,160
I would describe a sex addict 
and a narcissistic person, 

1023
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,600
someone with narcissistic 
personality disorder, as being 

1024
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,080
so unavailable emotionally that 
it's a completely different 

1025
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,080
stratosphere to an avoidant. 
Either way, I think Jillian 

1026
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,200
Torecki's quote applies here, 
which is something I think about

1027
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,440
all the time. 
People spend too much time 

1028
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,120
analyzing the emotionally 
unavailable person and not 

1029
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,120
enough time walking away from 
them. 

1030
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,360
So try to bring the focus back 
to yourself. 

1031
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,680
I know you want to understand 
why they're behaving the way 

1032
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,240
that they do. 
It's more important to look at 

1033
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,160
what the dynamic is teaching you
about yourself and whether or 

1034
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,120
not it's in alignment with what 
you need. 

1035
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,680
That's where the gold really is.
All right, last but not least of

1036
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,200
today's episode, Paul asks why 
are they so secretive? 

1037
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,520
And why do most cheat and lie? 
Most avoidant attachers don't 

1038
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,360
cheat. 
Some might lie, but we all do 

1039
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,080
that. 
There's a lot of judgement in 

1040
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,480
some of these questions. 
Why are they so secretive? 

1041
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,440
We talked about why they protect
their nervous system, has 

1042
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,240
learned. 
That if they open up, they'll be

1043
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,800
criticized, they won't have 
their needs met. 

1044
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,040
Nothing is ever good enough for 
other people. 

1045
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:39,560
I understand that dishonesty, 
secrets, infidelity are not good

1046
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:41,720
for a relationship. 
They're not healthy. 

1047
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,000
But not all avoidance are like 
that. 

1048
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,160
Some are, some aren't. 
It depends on the person, and 

1049
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,200
that's a great note to end 
today's episode on. 

1050
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,120
When it comes to attachment 
theory, look at the person and 

1051
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,240
not the label. 
Remember, the avoidant attacher 

1052
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,560
is not the enemy. 
They're not evil, they're not a 

1053
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,240
villain. 
They have been traumatized too, 

1054
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,720
doesn't mean that you have to 
stick around as they work. 

1055
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,000
Through. 
That trauma, but if they're 

1056
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,520
showing you that they are, if 
they're showing you that they 

1057
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,800
can repair, if they're showing 
you that they're willing to work

1058
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,280
with you as a teammate, that 
might be someone worth sticking 

1059
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,600
it out with. 
All right, Really powerful stuff

1060
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,440
today. 
This is the longest podcast 

1061
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,080
episode I've ever done. 
This is a big topic avoidant 

1062
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,960
attachment. 
I've done my best to approach 

1063
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,160
this with as much compassion as 
possible. 

1064
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:35,080
I look forward to hearing your 
comments on Apple, on Spotify, 

1065
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,400
and elsewhere. 
And as always, you can drop me a

1066
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,680
note at me at crackliff.com.