Hello everyone and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast
dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style.
I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and
author Chris Ratcliffe. I've helped thousands of people
across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment
through my books, workshops, digital downloads, and coaching
program. I'm excited to carry on that
mission here in the podcast, sharing tools and techniques,
principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to
growing more secure. Welcome back to the show,
everyone. It's really exciting to dive
into my very first guest interview today with none other
than Jessica De Silva. Jessica De Silva is a licensed
mental health therapist and attachment coach who empowers
individuals to free themselves from attachment patterns that
sabotage their relationships by teaching them actionable skills
to relate to themselves and others more authentically and
effectively. Not only does she talk the talk,
but she also devotes her online platforms to sharing her
personal journey in becoming securely attached and making
these topics more relatable and encouraging.
Jessica is also the host of the Let's Talk Attachments podcast.
So for those listening, you may have heard an episode or more of
Jessicas show because I've been on the show twice before.
So without further ado, want to welcome you to the Needy No More
podcast, Jessica. Thank you so much, Chris.
I am so excited to be here. Obviously, I'm used to kind of
having guests come on to my podcast, so being in the
spotlight is not my element. But for you, I knew this was
going to be a very just comforting and natural
environment. So thank you so much for having
me. You are more than welcome and
thank you for the kind words. I'm a words of affirmation
person so I really appreciate that.
Great note to start on. So the first thing I wanted to
ask you just to introduce you to my anxious attaching audience is
so you're a therapist, you're licensed mental health
professional, you're also an attachment coach.
How did you decide to specialize in attachment theory?
There's a lot of different directions and specializations
that you could have selected and this is what you went with.
So what informed that for you? How did that happen?
Yeah, good question. So I have always been intrigued
by the world of psychology because I always had a desire to
want to understand myself, right?
Coming from a very chaotic, enmeshed household, everything
felt so confusing, right. And so you identify and
personalize everything that happens to you.
And then when I took, I think it was like a it wasn't even a
psychology class in high school. It was some like life skills
class and interesting. Yeah.
And I learned a little bit about psychology and like what's your
ideology? And just it was, it was
interesting to kind of understand.
OK, wow. There's other implications to
the way that I'm feeling. It's not just necessarily me.
It's just kind of what I've been brought up with.
It's the conditioning I've experienced in my life.
So that opened up this whole world into psychology.
Obviously I got my bachelor's and then I got my master's in
marriage and family therapy. And then with attachment
coaching that didn't, I actually didn't learn so much about
attachment science in in grad school.
We like barely touched on it. I read the book Attached like a
few years later, as most people do when they learn about
attachment science, and I realized, wow, holy moly, I
finally understand all of the toxicity in my relationships.
It all makes sense. And for me, I understand things
through systems, right? And not necessarily labels per
SE, but I like to kind of see how things work kind of
systematically to make sense of my behaviors.
And so it just made sense and I dove really deep into it and
started sharing it on platforms and realized, wow, a lot of
people resonate with this too, and they want to learn about it.
So I just decided to niche in it.
Look, my story is so similar to that it's honestly a little bit
uncanny. And This is why in Needy No more
the book, the very first chapter after the introduction is called
the discovery, because for me, discovering my own attachment
style really gave me the power to recognize that it was
conditioning. It's so easy to blame yourself
when you grow up in a chaotic, unstable environment that's
really unpredictable and you don't really know how people are
going to show up or not. And so you've just learned to
take it all in and personalize it, and it becomes a part of
your identity and recognizing and kind of individuating away
from that and seeing, you know what, there was a me before that
happened. And because it happens in
childhood, we don't really have that identity yet.
There's the kind of discovery of the label, but then there's also
the rediscovery of yourself. And then that opens up a whole
doorway into a new universe, really, of finding out who am I
really without this identity And what does it mean for me to be
more secure? Tell me a little bit about your
journey to grow more secure because in your bio to you talk
about, you know, how you want to share relatable things that help
other people to understand they're not alone in this.
And I like to do the same thing. So I'd love to hear more about
your own journey with developing a secure attachment style.
Totally. And it actually makes me think
of your first book, isn't it? It's good to see me again.
Yes, yes, good memory. About that earlier today.
And it's exactly that, Chris, it is.
It's just reconnecting to yourself.
So obviously we know with the anxious attachment, as you know,
we get so lost in other people, right, We get so lost in our
attachment figures. And so we never really had the
opportunity to truly connect to ourselves and really get to
know, well, who am I authentically without this
conditioning, without these belief systems, without these,
you know, expectations, who am I?
What do I like? What do I value?
And so, you know, going back to my relationships, I would just
always get so lost and consumed in my relationships and I would
just completely lose my autonomy because I never felt truly safe
being my own person. I just never felt safe with
that. This whole process of learning
to become more securely attached.
It all starts with your relationship to self, right?
Often people come, they're like, I want to learn how to be secure
in my relationship with my partner.
And you know, they're like, should I even do this?
A lot of people like, do I even do this attachment coaching work
if I'm single? And I'm like, yes, if you're
single, this is the most epic time to do this work because
it's such a good opportunity for you to develop and cultivate
that healthy relationship with yourself.
Amen. Yes.
And I say similar things to folks who reach out to me for
coaching too, because there's no wrong time to do coaching work.
Some folks are in relationships and are really struggling.
They don't feel safe. They don't feel secure within
themselves. And many folks will project that
onto their romantic partner and within their romantic
relationship. So yes, it's helpful to try to
alter or evolve that dynamic. Obviously it takes 2 to tango.
You never know what's going to happen there.
But when you change the nature of your relationship with
yourself, other people do tend to respond differently.
And that's important for people to hear too, because if you're
on the insecure side of the attachment spectrum, you are
hypersensitive to other people's energy, but other people are
also responding to your energy as well.
Now, I've been very upfront that I struggled with anxious
attachment specifically for many years.
I know that you've also been very transparent that you've
struggled with a fearful avoidant or disorganized or
anxious avoidant attachment style.
So for folks who are listening, if you can walk them through
exactly what that attachment style is and help them
understand it and how it might relate to the Anxious 1, I think
that would be helpful for folks. So with the disorganized
attachment or you know, the fearful avoidant, it's like you
said, there's a combination of anxious attachment and the
avoidant attachment. So it's really unpredictable and
inconsistent when you're in your anxious state and when you're in
your avoidance state. And I think it really also does
depend on who you're with. So, you know, if you're with
someone who's a bit more anxious, we tend to go into our
avoidance and vice versa. Now, the difference between
someone who's disorganized versus someone who just has
anxious and avoidant tendencies is often historically the
trauma, the attachment trauma that you experienced.
So a disorganized attachment, there was just a lot more, I
would say, like macro levels of trauma.
So, you know, just a lot more chaos, often a lot of different
types of abuse, you know, severe abuse.
So it really leaves the child very conflicted where they feel
as though, OK, my parent or my attachment figure is a source of
safety, but they're also a source of fear, right?
There's a lot of fear there that I have towards them too.
So it leaves them this very disorganized state of wanting
connection and wanting attachment, but simultaneously
really being afraid of it at the same time.
So we develop a lot of beliefs around my partner doesn't have
the best intentions. They're the enemy.
They want to take advantage of me.
They're going to hurt me. So it's not just like, oh, OK, I
don't trust this person. We really do think that we're in
danger sometimes. So I would say that my, my
attachment was disorganized, leaning more anxious for sure.
So, you know. Yeah.
And so I would get into relationships, of course, right.
Because we're repeating these patterns that were also abusive.
So there was a lot of like emotional abuse, obviously
verbal abuse. I was in one relationship that
was physically abusive. And yeah.
And just, you know, when it when it happens, you kind of it's
familiar to you. You know, it's familiar
territory. So you think that, oh, OK, I
deserved that. You know, he's only going to do
it once, right? I can, I can excuse that because
that's what you did with your parents.
You know, I love them. And really it seems like they
love me and they have, they should have good intentions for
me, but they keep hurting me. And so that's just kind of how
you view love as a, you know, it's pain, but it's mixed with
with love. So it's this very twisted,
twisted and distorted way of experiencing love.
So when I learned about attachment science, kind of all
made sense that wow. This is why I keep repeating
these patterns. Yes, you're speaking the gospel.
First of all, I just want to say I love how you call it
attachment science. I usually call it attachment
theory, but I might actually changed what I say moving
forward because I think it's important for people to
understand that this is studied and has been for decades and is
a branch of psychology that looks at how the experiences
that you've been through, especially traumatic ones,
shaped your relational model. And what you were talking about
in terms of repeating patterns speaks directly to that.
The nervous system always seeks out a familiar hell over an
unfamiliar heaven. We just repeat things because we
want to repair them. And we tend to use relationships
to try to do that, without realizing that we've inserted
the same character with a different name into the plot
here. Yes, that is correct.
So go into this, this this recent acts because I'm sure
we're going to dive into this. I thought that I was breaking
the pattern, Chris, for a long time, years, I thought I was
breaking the pattern because he wasn't physically abusive.
He wasn't verbally abusive and I would say he wasn't necessarily.
I mean, I guess there was some emotional abuse that I just
wasn't seeing as emotional abuse.
So it was very subtle, I would say.
But to me, I was like, cool, I'm in, I'm in the clear.
Like I did it, I'm in the clear. And what I recognized is after
the breakup and working with my own trauma informed therapist, I
realized that wow, Jess, you were in codependent patterns and
you didn't even know it. Like you did not even know it.
So it's really, really interesting just how ingrained
this stuff is within us, like how ingrained our attachment
styles are within us. So yeah.
Well said, well said. And I do want to dive into that
relationship for people watching or listening.
Jessica has been so vulnerable in posting about her breakup
with her ex. I think you were together six
years, seven years. Almost seven years.
Almost seven years and you're, I want to say like a year and a
half or maybe a little longer out of the relationship now a.
Year and a month. Two months.
In a month. OK, Yep.
I knew it was a little over a year, but I wasn't sure exactly
where we were on that timeline. So she's a little over a year
removed from a pretty major breakup in her life.
And she's posted really inspiring videos about how she's
cried it out and walked on the beach and leaned into her
relationship with I think your sister and family and friends
and rediscovered joy again in the wake of a pretty devastating
breakup. I mean, almost seven years is a
significant chunk of someone's life, of your life.
And that's really, really tough. So I want to kind of set the
stage for folks to understand this was a long, long term
relationship. You may or may not have even
talked about marriage and other things.
You know, when you're together that long, like you talk about
stuff like long, long term stuff, big commitment, milestone
type stuff. So to end a relationship like
that and to also talk very openly about repeating some
patterns is I think really, really helpful for people to
hear. Because I can hear the self
forgiveness, the self compassion, the grace that you
are giving yourself in not beating yourself up, which has
insecure attachers, formerly insecure attachers.
We can tend to do. It's very deeply rooted
programming within us to say there's something wrong with us.
I should have known sooner. Why didn't I leave earlier?
Talk me through, talk all of us through how you decided that
ending or leaving the relationship is what was the
best course of action for you. Because in our last conversation
on your podcast on the Let's Talk Attachments podcast, we
touched a little bit on this where you referenced that you
really tried very hard. You leaned in, you then gave a
ton of space and we're basically living a separate life.
So I'm gonna pause there cuz I don't want to tell the story for
you, but walk us through the whole process really of how you
decided to walk away because that's really tough to do.
Yeah, it was devastating. And I appreciate those kind
words. It was devastating.
I met him when I was 28 years old and I was ready.
I was ready to find a person, find a partner, get married, do
the whole thing. Did I want to have kids?
Not necessarily. I'm still like, is that
something that I want in the future?
I don't really know at this point.
So I don't necessarily have that pressure, had that pressure.
So I was really willing to kind of take my time with this, with
this relationship. And when I say we were on a
trajectory, Chris, like we were on a trajectory, we bought a
house. We were converting that house.
It was a airplane hangar that we were converting into a home.
I mean, we had to. Yeah.
We were building a bathroom together.
We were building walls together. Picking out tile.
Everything, everything. And I noticed during those times
it was it was hell. It was wow, it was hell.
And I just, you know, investing so much money and time already
moving to a different place, not knowing anybody, kind of feeling
isolated, you know, as anxious attachers, we go all in.
Like we put everything, which I admire that about us, that we
really go all in within relationships.
But I had invested so much and I just kind of kept justifying the
hell that I was experiencing in terms of this house project and
telling myself it's just circumstantial.
It's just circumstantial. His behaviors, his rage, his
anger, his tantrums, it's just circumstantial.
It's just circumstantial. So kind of, and it wasn't all
the time, but it was very, really immature behavior on his
part where it didn't make me feel necessarily safe.
It wasn't ever geared towards me.
So I thought, OK, I'm safe. He's just angry.
He's just throwing tantrums but it's not towards me, so I'm OK,
I'm OK. How long did it take before it
was directed at you? You know, it was.
And here's the thing. Here's the thing.
That's tricky, right? Because when I say the emotional
abuse, it was never verbally directed at me.
So I thought, OK, maybe this is safe.
But the emotional manipulation was if he's unhappy, I'm a
contributor to that, right? So if, if we need more money,
well, Jessica, you need to make more money, right?
If we need to do XYZ, well Jessica, you need to work
harder. And so it was always this
indirect accusatory language, right?
Or just this indirect guilt that I would take upon myself.
So again, it wasn't direct, but it was indirect.
And what happened is, and during this time course, as you know,
needy no more, right? When you're doing this work, you
learn to become very in tune with your feelings and needs.
So I always practice just checking in.
Hey, Jess, what are you feeling? What are you needing?
What are you feeling? What are you needing?
And I did that enough times to recognize, OK, wait a second.
I am not feeling good most of the time.
And the hard part is that, you know, with circumstances,
whether it was the house or for your listeners, whether the
circumstances, you have kids, right?
The circumstances is that, you know, you're working extra jobs
because you're trying to pay the bills.
Like there's always circumstances that can kind of
skew your perception of reality. Yep.
And once we finish the house, like we literally, I was
painting. I'm God, I like, bro, I
literally broke my back doing this house.
I was painting the, the flooring, everything was set,
everything was good. And I realized, wow, I feel the
exact same. So it was never a circumstantial
issue. It was a personal and relational
issue. And I realized, wow, we're
actually very incompatible and you're just not emotionally
where I need you to be. You know, this isn't going to
work. Yeah.
That's tough. That's really tough.
I'm sure there were a lot of conversations along the way to,
hey, this is how I'm feeling. How are you feeling?
How did those go? Like what would he say to you in
those moments? So that's another thing, Chris,
that was really, really, it was confusing because in my past
relationships and my partners were always very dismissive or
critical, right? I would bring things up and they
would just. Make me feel bad about myself.
The thing is, my ex, he never made me feel bad about it.
He always listened. Like he was always a good
listener. He held space for me.
But The thing is, the words didn't align with the actions,
right? He was.
Very worse. Yeah, right.
Yeah. So the words, he was very
affirmative, very encouraging, but did the actions because what
I needed was support. I needed more support, support,
support. And he just could not provide me
that support. He didn't really make make an
effort to meet my needs in the way that I need it.
That's so tough. I don't know why, but Kelsey
Ballerini is like popping into my head.
I'm thinking of that song Mountain with a View or
something like that. It's a really wonderful song
about how she basically was alone like in this restaurant
and she realizes, she even says in the song, like I realized
this is when it's over for me. When did you realize it was over
for you? I was on a beach.
Oh, my goodness. OK, OK.
What? What beach?
Where were you? I was on a beach in Marina del
Rey. I live in Marina del Rey now.
I was on a beach. So here's the thing too is that,
and I'm sure you probably know of this too, these feelings that
I was experiencing, it manifested as depression.
It manifested as like this consistent anxiety.
So I was on the beach in Marina del Rey and I literally, I just
wanted to die. Like I didn't want to be alive.
I didn't want to be alive. I felt so stuck.
And this was a similar feeling that I felt with the abusive ex.
So I was like what is going on here?
Like, I'm not being abused now, but why do I feel so depressed
and so drained and like just stuck in my life?
And so, you know, the depression, it's communicating
to us. Your feelings are communicating
to you. And so I realized I honestly,
Chris, I didn't really have didn't really have an option at
that point. It was like, this is the only
thing that's causing me this amount of stress.
I think I need to end this relationship.
And as soon as I did that day, I went, I drove to Colorado 14
hours had the conversation with him.
Obviously we cried a lot. But for some reason he
understood because I would cry every week to him.
It this wasn't new information like this was ongoing.
And the very next day drove back to California.
And if when I tell you like the amount of relief that I felt it
was, it was insane. The relief that I felt the
weight that I could just take off that I don't have to carry
this burden of him anymore. I don't have to save him
anymore. I don't have to take care of his
happiness. I don't have have to be
responsible for this human's life anymore.
It was just, it's been a very difficult year.
But the relief was just proof that I made the right decision
and that the Depression was telling me, hey girl, you got to
make some changes here because this isn't working.
Well, good on you. I mean, for listening to your
own emotions. Obviously there had been a lot
of rounds of this for you, going to him, expressing your
feelings, trying to work on the relationship, hearing one thing,
seeing another. And I think it's important for
folks to hear and understand that it's OK to keep trying, but
if you realize that more often than not, you're the one trying
to save the relationship and you're the one putting in the
effort and you're the one paying the price, that you might not be
in the right connection for you. There are degrees to all of
this. And that's what makes it very
challenging to leave at times too.
Because I'm sure there was a lot of good in the relationship.
It's never all bad and it's never all good.
It's somewhere in between and realizing that your system was
telling you, I don't feel like this is adding to my life more
often than not, that more often than not, you felt drain
depressed. Sounds like maybe there was even
some suicidal ideation, which I want to normalize.
By the way, folks, it's OK if you think about doing that, but
if you start planning something, that's when you know you've
reached a tipping point and you need to reach out for resources.
So please know that it's OK to think things you are not your
thoughts. And I think it's really
beautiful that you shared that because there have been times
where I've had thoughts like that too.
And not enough people talk about getting to that point and
feeling so depleted and maybe so stuck in maybe even like a
freeze state of the nervous system, like losing yourself,
not knowing what to do next, feeling a sense of confusion,
feeling stuck. Seems like a lot of that was
present for you. And I hope that there's someone
listening to this who's struggling, you know, to maybe
leave a relationship that's not good for them and that they feel
stuck in, like they can't leave and that you've inspired them to
hopefully pursue a healthier path for themselves.
It's going to touch a lot of people to hear that, I know.
I hope. Touches me to hear it.
Yeah, and I love what you said too, about all relationships
have good, like they all have good to it.
You wouldn't be in that relationship with that person if
there wasn't any good, right. So and I think a lot of people
too kind of get stuck on the good that they let that kind of
overcompensate for all the bad and all the pain that's going
on. And so just because there's good
doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is good for
you. And it doesn't necessarily mean
that that person is really compatible with you.
And so that good, right, because he is a good human.
I truly, truly believe that he is a good human.
But was he compatible with my needs, my emotional needs?
No, he wasn't. And so again, like my feelings
were kind of indicating that to me.
And the more that I communicated, hey, this is what
I'm needing in the relationship and it wasn't being, you know,
really respected in any in any capacity, to be totally honest,
the words were there, the actions, not so much.
I realized, OK, I need to have more self worth here.
And I have to have more belief that I can find what I am
looking for. And this just might not be it.
And that's OK. Like that's OK.
It is OK and intermittent reinforcement is the toughest
pattern to break because you really don't truly know if for
when the next turn around is going to be or if for when that
person is going to show up differently.
Or hopefully you'll regain that honeymoon period that maybe you
once had and the ease with which you were able to connect at the
beginning. You know, many people are trying
to recapture an era or a chapter in their relationship that no
longer exists. And for some people, you're not
going to be able to recreate that.
And that is also OK. You can reformulate and create a
new path for your relationship, but it always takes 2.
It takes both people to say, you know what, I'm not happy with
this, I'm not happy with this. I think that this is how we can
improve this dynamic. What do you think about that?
What are your suggestions? Working as a team?
It feels like in a lot of ways you were showing up for both
people in the relationship. And in that regard, it can
almost feel like you're working with someone who is a project
and not a partner. That's tough.
Yeah, that is tough. And I think that us anxious
attachers are those of us that lean a bit more anxiously
attached that we have like the capacity to do it all.
I really do think we have the capacity to do it all, but we
don't have to. Like that's what we have to
recognize is that we don't have to take on that burden and it's
not our responsibility to make other people happy and we have
to prioritize ourselves. And so in this season where I've
been single this year and two months now, it's been a season
of just prioritizing myself, which Chris, I'm interested with
you too because it have you've been single?
Have you been single for a while?
OK. I have yes I'm.
Curious about that. But yeah, it's been a season of
just serving myself, which I'm not used to doing that because
as anxious attachers, we're used to serving others, right?
Putting others first. So working through my own belief
systems of Oh my God, am I being selfish?
Am I self-centered? Like, should I be doing more
for, for, for others? I don't know.
It's been a very confusing time, but I think it's also a very
necessary time to kind of reframe these insecurities and
connect to my authentic self. How have you been doing that
over the past year? Plus, like, I think I've seen
some travel, obviously, you know, I've, I've seen some
family time, some friend time. I think I may have even seen
some rollerblading and, and things like that, which is so LA
to me being on the East Coast. So talk to me and walk us
through what your healing and grieving process have been like,
because we all know that breakups cause grief.
Holy, how have you been grieving?
Oh my gosh. So the first month it was great
relief. The first month it was great
relief. I was just on cloud 9, to be
totally honest. I mean, it was, it was hard, but
I was just relieved. And then it went into a lot of
loneliness, a lot of loneliness. But in that space just really
trying to reconnect. So like you said, did the
rollerblading. You know, I have a nephew so I
would spend a lot of time with my little nephew and just that
met my need for, you know, connection and presence and
playfulness. I got back into my spirituality.
So you know, practicing my Christian faith and reconnecting
to God, like feeling really supported in that way.
A lot of self help, books, therapy, coaching, I mean the
things just trying to occupy my life the best I could.
But I want to be totally honest. I want to say the first six
months it was just crying like every single day.
I would like sing songs to my ex, like I would at least laying
down in my bed and like singing songs and crying at the same
time. It was just, it was weird.
It was very weird. I do a lot of yelling.
I'd go into my bathroom and yell into the the towel, you know,
just to like release all of this anger that I was feeling.
So when I think about the five stages of grief, the denial was
there here and there. There was definitely a lot of
anger that came up. But I found myself in the
bargaining stage a lot. So like as someone who kind of
struggles with the anxious attachment too, I think that we
get stuck in the bargaining stage of Oh my God, I could have
done more. I could have done more.
I could have waited a little bit longer.
Maybe now that things were settled with the house, things
were going to get better. Maybe I quit too soon on him.
Maybe he was going to be happier after a new job, right.
Like all of these different thoughts kind of bombarding me
in terms of maybe I should have done more.
To be 100% honest, I'm still struggling with that.
Not to the severity that I was before, but it still crosses my
mind. I think I've reached a level of
acceptance at this point. But you know, breaking those
codependency habits, it's hard. You know, those codependent
habits of wanting to fix someone and wanting to save someone and
feeling like you could do those things for somebody.
It's very much ingrained and how you're kind of wired to
experience love. So that still does come up a
little bit for me. Thank you for being so
transparent about that. There's so many degrees to all
of this and Shades of Grey where yes, there is an element of
acceptance of course, but it's not absolute acceptance.
There's an element where you might question yourself or doubt
yourself, ask what if or be in a state of the woulda, coulda,
shoulda's. Yeah.
And what I think is so essential for people to take away from
this is that it's OK for those thoughts and feelings to be
present. And it's still, I don't want to
speak for you, but it still probably doesn't make sense for
the two of you to get back together because you've
recognized that there is a high degree of misalignment in some
key areas for you. And it is OK for all of this to
exist simultaneously. It's OK if you miss them, even
if it wasn't healthy for you. It's OK if you're still sad or
angry or upset or regretful or remorseful.
It's OK for you to feel all of those things and still
experience, still access a state of acceptance by saying, you
know what? I needed to learn some things
again. And I also went through that to
recognize that, yes, maybe some of this was conditional, maybe
some of it was situational. But overall, across a lot of
different data points that you gathered over a good amount of
time, you realized this probably isn't the person for me.
And all of those things can exist simultaneously.
That kind of Gray area makes it very confusing for folks when
they're going through a breakup. So I love that you acknowledged
the nuance and the complexities of what it's like to grieve
because you're not going to absolutely accept there's
relief. I mean, I felt relief when my
dad passed and that's because he struggled with his health for
half of my life. And so realizing that he was at
peace and quite frankly, that I didn't have to keep caregiving
was a big deal for me. I've experienced relief in
breakups before myself as well, a breakup that I initiated.
I remember feeling this way. There's also an empowerment that
comes from that. Being on the more anxious side
of things, it can be really challenging to be the one to
say, you know what, I can't give any more.
I've reached my limit. And this isn't healthy for me to
continue. And as tough as it is because we
fear abandonment and we do feel a lot of isolation and
loneliness, which is compounded by societal and cultural
factors, especially now. But I love that you're talking
about the nuance of all of this because it's so important for
people to see that there are so many degrees to the grieving
process. And it's not linear.
The five stages are not linear. Like any healing journey, it's a
cycle. And you cycle upwards, you get
more perspective. You might cycle back to revisit
a lesson or cycle up and see it from a different perspective.
And that is all a natural part of the healing journey.
If you could give anyone struggling in their relationship
or considering ending their relationship a piece of advice,
something that worked for you, a tool, a practice, what would it
be? So someone struggling to kind of
end their relationship in a sense, yes, OK, I would say
that's a really good question. I would say again to really
check in with yourself often. What what was really helpful for
me was checking in again with the feelings and the needs on a
more consistent basis. Because that's going to be
really telling, right? Like that's a pattern that you
want to pick up on. So I would, and again, it's
like, and I know that you speak to this too, where it's not
going to be perfect, right? No one's going to be able to
meet your needs perfectly all of the time, but you want to be
feeling pretty safe and secure and good about your relationship
for the most part. More often than not, yeah.
More often than not. So if you have made a habit of
kind of checking in with yourself and you're noticing,
OK, wow, I'm actually feeling really anxious most of the time,
despite my efforts to communicate, despite my efforts
to make the relationship healthy, I'm feeling really
disconnected and really distant and really unsupported and
really unhappy and really sad and really alone.
You want to listen to that. You definitely want to listen to
that. So that that check in really
allows you to begin trusting yourself a bit more because that
self trust piece is so, so vital.
The opposite of uncertainty isn't certainty, it is self
trust. Yes, because there's so much
around you you can't control. But if you're listening to
yourself and what your nervous system and your body are telling
you, there's so much pride in that and empowerment in that.
And I imagine for you, looking back at doing that for yourself
in that era of your life, which is first of all, so challenging
to do because for folks like us, we're drawn externally.
That is the focus. So what you're also teaching
folks in that moment is how to show up as a secure attacher, to
listen to yourself, to advocate for your needs, to detach and
recognize that OK, someone isn't going to be able to meet my
needs all of the time. They're not some sort of needs
ATM. And you can make a withdrawal
whenever you want. But even doing all of that, you
recognized, well, I mean, I'm, I'm doing all of the secure,
healthy things. So I imagine too, there's an
element of pride and empowerment in looking back at that.
Have you considered that for yourself?
Not necessarily. Not in that way, yeah.
I hear that. Well, I'm proud of you.
It's tough to do in those moments.
And, you know, it's the last thing that folks like us tend to
do when we're in that kind of dynamic in a relationship.
Yeah, I think you should be proud of doing that in that
moment and checking in with yourself and listening to
yourself. And I'm glad you said that,
Chris, because in the beginning of the episode you mentioned how
when having that kind of insecure attachment style, we
can be really hard on ourselves in terms of I should have done
more, I should have known better.
I should have listened to this and that.
I yeah, I should, I should have known better, essentially.
I think that's been coming up for me a lot.
But but then I also like, you know, when I think about like my
secure self and I really did want to give it my all.
Like I gave it my all. And I'm proud of that.
I'm really proud of that because I think I would have, in my
avoidant tendencies, maybe I would have given up a lot
sooner. And I didn't want to act from
that space. I wanted to really give it a
fair shot. So I waited until the end of
this House project, right? To really see again when the
dust settles, how? Do I?
Yes, yeah. And I given the work that I was
doing throughout those years and recognizing those patterns, I
realized, OK, I see the pattern now and I'm going to have to
make a well and well informed decision for my life from here.
What I also love about your journey and your story is that I
see this all the time in the people that I talk to and maybe
you do too. There's so much judgment from an
anxious attachers perspective of someone avoidant and or
disorganized. And what you are showing people
is that not all disorganized attachers, avoidant attachers
are the same. Look at how you leaned into your
relationship. You didn't dismiss your
avoidance tendencies, you recognized it and you made a
more conscious decision. And This is why I always tell
folks, don't rule out someone because of their attachment
style. Look at the person, not the
label. There's so much security in the
way that you showed up there that if someone from the outside
were to just look at you for being a disorganized attacher,
they would lose all of that context.
They would throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
You know, it's kind of all or nothing.
That kind of all or nothing thinking is not healthy and not
helpful and not secure. And I love this because it.
Shows people, OK, so you've struggled with both sides of the
spectrum here of being hyper independent, hyper dependent to
the point of codependency, and yet you made healthy choices in
those moments in the thick of the struggle of your
relationship. And people need to hear that
too. Don't rule out someone because
of their attachment style. There are secure elements to
everyone. For some, there are more than
others and that is OK. Remember that all of this is a
spectrum. There's a lot of nuance to this.
Look at the person and not the label.
Because if someone were to look at you or me based on our
attachment styles and I know that both of us would likely
consider ourselves more secure. Now, you know, I've always said
now that I consider myself about 75 to 80% secure and then the
remaining percentage, 20 to 25% is still anxious.
It's still there, it exists. I don't indulge it as much as I
used to. It doesn't last as long, it's
not as intense. The bounce back period is a lot
quicker and I would imagine the same is true for you.
But I want people to hear and understand that.
Do you have anything to add to that for folks listening?
Yeah, I like that you said that because I know a lot of people
that, you know, they're dating someone initial stages of dating
and, and I can see where this can maybe be helpful to give you
some information, but they'll give them the attachment style
quiz and make a decision off that from that, you know, and
and I get that that could give you some feedback in terms of,
you know, kind of what you're looking for, but you can't just
write people off based off of a label.
And so there's more that you want to assess.
And yes, for me, obviously, you know, I have predominantly this
insecure attachment style growing up, but it was important
for me. Like I value growth and I value,
you know, just healing and I value self help and I value
therapy and I value all of these things to help me evolve into a
better person. And am I taking action steps to
align with that version? Yes.
So I think that those are the questions too that you want to
ask the people that you get into a relationship with is what are
your values? What what are you doing to align
with those values? Do you actually take action to
align with those values? And that's just going to be more
telling and more indicative of, you know, is this a suitable
partner or? 100% couldn't agree more.
Yes and many people will also ask like hey are you in therapy?
Do you know your attachment style?
Just because they might not be in therapy or they might not
know their attachment style, it doesn't mean that they're not
aware of some of their behaviors.
And there are many different paths to healing, so try not to
be for those listening to rigid in your expectations of what
someone should have done or not done.
Realize that some people are self healers and they listen to
podcasts and they read books and they watch YouTube videos.
Other people hire professionals. Some people do a mix of all the
above. There is no one path to growing
more secure. There's a lot of different entry
points. The journey is winding and it is
one that lasts a lifetime. Look for indications that the
person is self aware, that they are even aware of their values.
If they can't tell you their values, that might be a good
indication that especially if you are on the more anxious side
of things, you might not have someone who has the depth that
you desire. It doesn't make them a bad
person, but it might mean that they are not aligned in the ways
that you need. Yeah.
Now I want to talk about developing a secure attachment
style because that's the work that we both do.
Really everything we're putting out there is helping people to
understand themselves and work towards a more secure attachment
style, towards the secure side of the attachment spectrum.
Yeah. Talk to me about some things
that have worked for you and what you pass along to your
therapy and coaching clients. Yeah, good question.
So that's the goal, right? That's the goal is to kind of
shift from that insecure to secure way of relating to
yourself and others. So I like to work with the
secure self archetype and I don't know if I ever brought
this up to you necessarily, but it's I call it the secure self
archetype. And essentially, you know, when
you think of like internal family systems, there's a lot of
different parts to us, OK. And these parts can be very
sabotaging in a lot of ways, but you know, naturally they're
there to help us. The thing is when we didn't
really have a healthy model growing up, we don't really know
how to take care of those parts. So we tend to be in conflict
with, you know, our anxious part.
We tend to be in conflict with our self critical part, right?
There's lots of different parts to us.
So in developing your secure self, it's really just
cultivating a secure part to you that can kind of help you
navigate all of the challenges that that come up for you.
If you don't have that part to you, then you're going to have a
really hard time. So in terms of cultivating your
secure self to your listeners, it's really getting clear on
again, OK, what what are your values?
You know, what are your relationship values?
Is it that you value growth, that you value compassion,
kindness, partnership? So getting really clear on that
blueprint for you. You know, what Chris talks about
so much is the needs. What are your relationship
needs? Getting clear on that,
connecting to your feelings, learning how to really sit still
with your feelings as anxious attachers were super impulsive
when we're feeling any kind of discomfort.
So really learning, you know, some somatic practices, self
regulation to just sit before reacting, sit before reacting,
learning how to fill your own void.
Right. So creating a support system,
hobbies that you like, you know, creating a community of people
that you like, people that can support you just learning how to
become more of a whole person in that sense.
Yeah, and a lot of that, too, comes with self compassion.
When you think of your secure self, there's that's a really
compassionate and accepting flexible part of you.
So that part of you is really going to come in handy.
You know, throughout this year of just grieving, she's really
come in handy in terms of like how I talk to myself.
You know, I soothe myself from that secure version of me where
I'll put my hand on my heart and I'll just say really loving
things to myself. Like, hey, Jess, you're going to
be OK. I got you.
I support you. I mean, it is the most
compassionate, loving part of you.
And I think it's important to to cultivate that within you if you
haven't done so yet. That's so powerful for people to
hear and I love ifs and parts work because of this.
There is a secure part to everyone.
You're not just anxious. No one is 100% an anxious
attacher or disorganized attach or any kind of attacher even
100% secure. That doesn't exist either.
There are degrees to all of this, and this seems to be an
emerging theme from our conversation today.
A lot of nuance and complexity exists within everything, and
that includes you cultivating as you so beautifully put that
relationship with yourself. And pouring love, affection,
time, energy, support, encouragement into that part of
you helps to lift all of the other parts as well.
Inner child work is related to this, to, you know, you're
accessing versions of yourself that went through those
experiences that were really hurt, that were invalidated or
unsafe, that felt that unpredictability and instability
that so many of us recognize from our childhoods.
And I love that you said that because I think it's so
important for people to realize there is that part in you
already. And we can bolster and
strengthen that. We can give them the lead seat
at the table. They can run this committee, if
you will. And I love that analogy because
it really, I almost think of like the Knights of the Round
Table or something when I hear that, like, you know, you're all
gathering around the table, but at the end of the day, the
secure self is leading the charge.
They're hearing everyone out. They're saying, OK, that's a
valid point. Thank you for bringing that to
our attention. We'll consider that.
Thank you. And moving forward.
And I love that too, because it lets people know you know, this
is really ultimately all about listening to yourself. 100
percent, 100%, yeah. The listening, the self
compassion, the self acceptance, it's all tied in.
As we're nearing the end of our conversation today, I want to
ask you anything else you feel anxious attachers listening or
watching should know. Like what is your elevator pitch
for them? What what's your one liner or
what what comes to mind when you think of anything we didn't
cover today that you want them to take away from this
conversation or maybe isn't something that we even got to
talk about today. I feel like we covered so much
good stuff. But yeah, I would just say then
rather than outsourcing so much, practice inner sourcing because
you have such a big heart, you have so much love to give, and
if you can just give some of that to yourself and know that
you're capable of doing that, I think it's just such a beautiful
practice to again, cultivate and develop that relationship with
yourself. Anxious attachers were so used
to kind of outsourcing and getting that external
validation, that external reassurance, that external love,
and you have so much of that within you already.
So if you can just source that from within yourself, I think
that's such a beautiful practice of self love and self trust.
And something that I always like to tell, you know, my students,
my clients, people that you know, come work with me is get
into the habit of asking yourself what would secure me?
Do you know what would secure me?
Do I think that's such a good guiding system in terms of
helping you realign right to that part of you?
I even have it on to my mug here to remind me every day.
What? Would secure that is precious.
I love that. And it has my brand colors too,
the purple. And such a dork.
But it, well, you have to remind yourself, because we can get so
lost. We can get so lost in the sauce.
And yeah, I think it's just a kind of a good grounding
question to ask yourself. Amen.
Great note to end on One thing I'm going to link in the notes
for folks listening today is a breakup guide that I have, which
is actually an excerpt of a chapter from Needy No More, the
book and it's 4 tips for anxious attachers going through a
breakup because we talked about your breakup.
And I think that's kind of the theme of today too, is that
relationship with yourself and rediscovering yourself.
So I'm going to link that for folks.
I'll create a URL. It'll be crack lift Comm slash
breakup. I will also link that in the
show notes. I would love for you to share
with folks watching and listening how they can find you
online, any resources that you might have available to them.
How can folks discover you? Because you've got great content
on Instagram and TikTok and all over, so how can people find
you? Yeah, so you can find me on
Instagram with the Jessica De Silva.
I don't post too much on TikTok anymore, but I think it's
Jessica De Silva coaching on TikTok.
And then my website, jessicadesilvacoaching.com.
Honestly, if you just go on the website, it has all the links on
there. My podcast, Let's Talk
Attachments podcast, one-on-one coaching especially I kind of
work with all the attachment styles.
So you know, if you have some someone who maybe is avoidantly
attached, we can work on that too.
And then I have an E course, it's the My Secure Self E
course, so that's available as well.
Jessica de silvacoaching.com Yep, great, fabulous.
Thank you so much, Jessica. This has been a wonderful
conversation. I knew that it would be very
first guest episode in the books, and I'm so happy that we
got to share that milestone together.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Chris.
And I just wanted to say, like I love your compassionate approach
to this. When you speak, it feels very
encouraging, very warm. And so I'm just very grateful
for you and for this opportunity.