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Hello everyone and welcome back 
to Needy No More, the podcast 

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dedicated to healing the anxious
attachment style. 

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I'm your host, anxious 
attachment style coach and 

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author Chris Ratcliffe. 
I've helped thousands of people 

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across 6 continents to end the 
cycle of anxious attachment 

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through my books, workshops, 
digital downloads, and coaching 

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program. 
I'm excited to carry on that 

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mission here in the podcast, 
sharing tools and techniques, 

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principles and practices for you
to explore on your journey to 

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growing more secure. 
Welcome back to the show, 

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everyone. 
It's really exciting to dive 

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into my very first guest 
interview today with none other 

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than Jessica De Silva. 
Jessica De Silva is a licensed 

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mental health therapist and 
attachment coach who empowers 

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individuals to free themselves 
from attachment patterns that 

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sabotage their relationships by 
teaching them actionable skills 

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to relate to themselves and 
others more authentically and 

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effectively. 
Not only does she talk the talk,

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but she also devotes her online 
platforms to sharing her 

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personal journey in becoming 
securely attached and making 

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these topics more relatable and 
encouraging. 

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Jessica is also the host of the 
Let's Talk Attachments podcast. 

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So for those listening, you may 
have heard an episode or more of

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Jessicas show because I've been 
on the show twice before. 

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So without further ado, want to 
welcome you to the Needy No More

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podcast, Jessica. 
Thank you so much, Chris. 

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I am so excited to be here. 
Obviously, I'm used to kind of 

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having guests come on to my 
podcast, so being in the 

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spotlight is not my element. 
But for you, I knew this was 

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going to be a very just 
comforting and natural 

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environment. 
So thank you so much for having 

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me. 
You are more than welcome and 

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thank you for the kind words. 
I'm a words of affirmation 

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person so I really appreciate 
that. 

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Great note to start on. 
So the first thing I wanted to 

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ask you just to introduce you to
my anxious attaching audience is

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so you're a therapist, you're 
licensed mental health 

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professional, you're also an 
attachment coach. 

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How did you decide to specialize
in attachment theory? 

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There's a lot of different 
directions and specializations 

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that you could have selected and
this is what you went with. 

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So what informed that for you? 
How did that happen? 

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Yeah, good question. 
So I have always been intrigued 

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by the world of psychology 
because I always had a desire to

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want to understand myself, 
right? 

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Coming from a very chaotic, 
enmeshed household, everything 

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felt so confusing, right. 
And so you identify and 

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personalize everything that 
happens to you. 

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And then when I took, I think it
was like a it wasn't even a 

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psychology class in high school.
It was some like life skills 

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class and interesting. 
Yeah. 

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And I learned a little bit about
psychology and like what's your 

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ideology? 
And just it was, it was 

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interesting to kind of 
understand. 

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OK, wow. 
There's other implications to 

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the way that I'm feeling. 
It's not just necessarily me. 

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It's just kind of what I've been
brought up with. 

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It's the conditioning I've 
experienced in my life. 

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So that opened up this whole 
world into psychology. 

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Obviously I got my bachelor's 
and then I got my master's in 

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marriage and family therapy. 
And then with attachment 

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coaching that didn't, I actually
didn't learn so much about 

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attachment science in in grad 
school. 

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We like barely touched on it. 
I read the book Attached like a 

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few years later, as most people 
do when they learn about 

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attachment science, and I 
realized, wow, holy moly, I 

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finally understand all of the 
toxicity in my relationships. 

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It all makes sense. 
And for me, I understand things 

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through systems, right? 
And not necessarily labels per 

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SE, but I like to kind of see 
how things work kind of 

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systematically to make sense of 
my behaviors. 

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And so it just made sense and I 
dove really deep into it and 

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started sharing it on platforms 
and realized, wow, a lot of 

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people resonate with this too, 
and they want to learn about it.

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So I just decided to niche in 
it. 

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Look, my story is so similar to 
that it's honestly a little bit 

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uncanny. 
And This is why in Needy No more

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the book, the very first chapter
after the introduction is called

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the discovery, because for me, 
discovering my own attachment 

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style really gave me the power 
to recognize that it was 

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conditioning. 
It's so easy to blame yourself 

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when you grow up in a chaotic, 
unstable environment that's 

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really unpredictable and you 
don't really know how people are

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going to show up or not. 
And so you've just learned to 

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take it all in and personalize 
it, and it becomes a part of 

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your identity and recognizing 
and kind of individuating away 

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from that and seeing, you know 
what, there was a me before that

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happened. 
And because it happens in 

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childhood, we don't really have 
that identity yet. 

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There's the kind of discovery of
the label, but then there's also

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the rediscovery of yourself. 
And then that opens up a whole 

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doorway into a new universe, 
really, of finding out who am I 

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really without this identity And
what does it mean for me to be 

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more secure? 
Tell me a little bit about your 

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journey to grow more secure 
because in your bio to you talk 

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about, you know, how you want to
share relatable things that help

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other people to understand 
they're not alone in this. 

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And I like to do the same thing.
So I'd love to hear more about 

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your own journey with developing
a secure attachment style. 

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Totally. 
And it actually makes me think 

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of your first book, isn't it? 
It's good to see me again. 

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Yes, yes, good memory. 
About that earlier today. 

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And it's exactly that, Chris, it
is. 

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It's just reconnecting to 
yourself. 

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So obviously we know with the 
anxious attachment, as you know,

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we get so lost in other people, 
right, We get so lost in our 

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attachment figures. 
And so we never really had the 

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opportunity to truly connect to 
ourselves and really get to 

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know, well, who am I 
authentically without this 

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conditioning, without these 
belief systems, without these, 

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you know, expectations, who am 
I? 

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What do I like? 
What do I value? 

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And so, you know, going back to 
my relationships, I would just 

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always get so lost and consumed 
in my relationships and I would 

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just completely lose my autonomy
because I never felt truly safe 

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being my own person. 
I just never felt safe with 

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that. 
This whole process of learning 

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to become more securely 
attached. 

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It all starts with your 
relationship to self, right? 

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Often people come, they're like,
I want to learn how to be secure

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in my relationship with my 
partner. 

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And you know, they're like, 
should I even do this? 

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A lot of people like, do I even 
do this attachment coaching work

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if I'm single? 
And I'm like, yes, if you're 

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single, this is the most epic 
time to do this work because 

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it's such a good opportunity for
you to develop and cultivate 

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that healthy relationship with 
yourself. 

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Amen. 
Yes. 

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And I say similar things to 
folks who reach out to me for 

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coaching too, because there's no
wrong time to do coaching work. 

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Some folks are in relationships 
and are really struggling. 

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They don't feel safe. 
They don't feel secure within 

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themselves. 
And many folks will project that

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onto their romantic partner and 
within their romantic 

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relationship. 
So yes, it's helpful to try to 

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alter or evolve that dynamic. 
Obviously it takes 2 to tango. 

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You never know what's going to 
happen there. 

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But when you change the nature 
of your relationship with 

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yourself, other people do tend 
to respond differently. 

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And that's important for people 
to hear too, because if you're 

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on the insecure side of the 
attachment spectrum, you are 

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hypersensitive to other people's
energy, but other people are 

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also responding to your energy 
as well. 

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Now, I've been very upfront that
I struggled with anxious 

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attachment specifically for many
years. 

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I know that you've also been 
very transparent that you've 

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struggled with a fearful 
avoidant or disorganized or 

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anxious avoidant attachment 
style. 

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So for folks who are listening, 
if you can walk them through 

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exactly what that attachment 
style is and help them 

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understand it and how it might 
relate to the Anxious 1, I think

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that would be helpful for folks.
So with the disorganized 

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attachment or you know, the 
fearful avoidant, it's like you 

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said, there's a combination of 
anxious attachment and the 

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avoidant attachment. 
So it's really unpredictable and

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inconsistent when you're in your
anxious state and when you're in

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your avoidance state. 
And I think it really also does 

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depend on who you're with. 
So, you know, if you're with 

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someone who's a bit more 
anxious, we tend to go into our 

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avoidance and vice versa. 
Now, the difference between 

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someone who's disorganized 
versus someone who just has 

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anxious and avoidant tendencies 
is often historically the 

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trauma, the attachment trauma 
that you experienced. 

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So a disorganized attachment, 
there was just a lot more, I 

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would say, like macro levels of 
trauma. 

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So, you know, just a lot more 
chaos, often a lot of different 

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types of abuse, you know, severe
abuse. 

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So it really leaves the child 
very conflicted where they feel 

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as though, OK, my parent or my 
attachment figure is a source of

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safety, but they're also a 
source of fear, right? 

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There's a lot of fear there that
I have towards them too. 

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So it leaves them this very 
disorganized state of wanting 

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connection and wanting 
attachment, but simultaneously 

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really being afraid of it at the
same time. 

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So we develop a lot of beliefs 
around my partner doesn't have 

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the best intentions. 
They're the enemy. 

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They want to take advantage of 
me. 

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They're going to hurt me. 
So it's not just like, oh, OK, I

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don't trust this person. 
We really do think that we're in

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danger sometimes. 
So I would say that my, my 

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attachment was disorganized, 
leaning more anxious for sure. 

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So, you know. 
Yeah. 

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And so I would get into 
relationships, of course, right.

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Because we're repeating these 
patterns that were also abusive.

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So there was a lot of like 
emotional abuse, obviously 

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verbal abuse. 
I was in one relationship that 

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was physically abusive. 
And yeah. 

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And just, you know, when it when
it happens, you kind of it's 

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familiar to you. 
You know, it's familiar 

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territory. 
So you think that, oh, OK, I 

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deserved that. 
You know, he's only going to do 

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it once, right? 
I can, I can excuse that because

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that's what you did with your 
parents. 

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You know, I love them. 
And really it seems like they 

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love me and they have, they 
should have good intentions for 

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me, but they keep hurting me. 
And so that's just kind of how 

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you view love as a, you know, 
it's pain, but it's mixed with 

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with love. 
So it's this very twisted, 

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twisted and distorted way of 
experiencing love. 

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So when I learned about 
attachment science, kind of all 

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made sense that wow. 
This is why I keep repeating 

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these patterns. 
Yes, you're speaking the gospel.

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First of all, I just want to say
I love how you call it 

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attachment science. 
I usually call it attachment 

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theory, but I might actually 
changed what I say moving 

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forward because I think it's 
important for people to 

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understand that this is studied 
and has been for decades and is 

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a branch of psychology that 
looks at how the experiences 

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that you've been through, 
especially traumatic ones, 

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shaped your relational model. 
And what you were talking about 

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in terms of repeating patterns 
speaks directly to that. 

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The nervous system always seeks 
out a familiar hell over an 

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unfamiliar heaven. 
We just repeat things because we

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want to repair them. 
And we tend to use relationships

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to try to do that, without 
realizing that we've inserted 

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the same character with a 
different name into the plot 

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here. 
Yes, that is correct. 

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So go into this, this this 
recent acts because I'm sure 

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we're going to dive into this. 
I thought that I was breaking 

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the pattern, Chris, for a long 
time, years, I thought I was 

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breaking the pattern because he 
wasn't physically abusive. 

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He wasn't verbally abusive and I
would say he wasn't necessarily.

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I mean, I guess there was some 
emotional abuse that I just 

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wasn't seeing as emotional 
abuse. 

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So it was very subtle, I would 
say. 

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But to me, I was like, cool, I'm
in, I'm in the clear. 

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Like I did it, I'm in the clear.
And what I recognized is after 

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the breakup and working with my 
own trauma informed therapist, I

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00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,320
realized that wow, Jess, you 
were in codependent patterns and

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00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,520
you didn't even know it. 
Like you did not even know it. 

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00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,480
So it's really, really 
interesting just how ingrained 

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this stuff is within us, like 
how ingrained our attachment 

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00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,920
styles are within us. 
So yeah. 

234
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,520
Well said, well said. 
And I do want to dive into that 

235
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,760
relationship for people watching
or listening. 

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00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:18,280
Jessica has been so vulnerable 
in posting about her breakup 

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with her ex. 
I think you were together six 

238
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years, seven years. 
Almost seven years. 

239
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,320
Almost seven years and you're, I
want to say like a year and a 

240
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,440
half or maybe a little longer 
out of the relationship now a. 

241
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,200
Year and a month. 
Two months. 

242
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,680
In a month. 
OK, Yep. 

243
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,760
I knew it was a little over a 
year, but I wasn't sure exactly 

244
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,800
where we were on that timeline. 
So she's a little over a year 

245
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,480
removed from a pretty major 
breakup in her life. 

246
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,200
And she's posted really 
inspiring videos about how she's

247
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,360
cried it out and walked on the 
beach and leaned into her 

248
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,680
relationship with I think your 
sister and family and friends 

249
00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:01,840
and rediscovered joy again in 
the wake of a pretty devastating

250
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,480
breakup. 
I mean, almost seven years is a 

251
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,480
significant chunk of someone's 
life, of your life. 

252
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,320
And that's really, really tough.
So I want to kind of set the 

253
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,080
stage for folks to understand 
this was a long, long term 

254
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,640
relationship. 
You may or may not have even 

255
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,480
talked about marriage and other 
things. 

256
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,160
You know, when you're together 
that long, like you talk about 

257
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,600
stuff like long, long term 
stuff, big commitment, milestone

258
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,760
type stuff. 
So to end a relationship like 

259
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,800
that and to also talk very 
openly about repeating some 

260
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,400
patterns is I think really, 
really helpful for people to 

261
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,320
hear. 
Because I can hear the self 

262
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,040
forgiveness, the self 
compassion, the grace that you 

263
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,440
are giving yourself in not 
beating yourself up, which has 

264
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,280
insecure attachers, formerly 
insecure attachers. 

265
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,080
We can tend to do. 
It's very deeply rooted 

266
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,480
programming within us to say 
there's something wrong with us.

267
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,480
I should have known sooner. 
Why didn't I leave earlier? 

268
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,240
Talk me through, talk all of us 
through how you decided that 

269
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,280
ending or leaving the 
relationship is what was the 

270
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,000
best course of action for you. 
Because in our last conversation

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00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,880
on your podcast on the Let's 
Talk Attachments podcast, we 

272
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,720
touched a little bit on this 
where you referenced that you 

273
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,240
really tried very hard. 
You leaned in, you then gave a 

274
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,560
ton of space and we're basically
living a separate life. 

275
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,400
So I'm gonna pause there cuz I 
don't want to tell the story for

276
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,760
you, but walk us through the 
whole process really of how you 

277
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,560
decided to walk away because 
that's really tough to do. 

278
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,640
Yeah, it was devastating. 
And I appreciate those kind 

279
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,400
words. 
It was devastating. 

280
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,000
I met him when I was 28 years 
old and I was ready. 

281
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,040
I was ready to find a person, 
find a partner, get married, do 

282
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,200
the whole thing. 
Did I want to have kids? 

283
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,840
Not necessarily. 
I'm still like, is that 

284
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,640
something that I want in the 
future? 

285
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,120
I don't really know at this 
point. 

286
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,200
So I don't necessarily have that
pressure, had that pressure. 

287
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,560
So I was really willing to kind 
of take my time with this, with 

288
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,080
this relationship. 
And when I say we were on a 

289
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,440
trajectory, Chris, like we were 
on a trajectory, we bought a 

290
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,640
house. 
We were converting that house. 

291
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,920
It was a airplane hangar that we
were converting into a home. 

292
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,400
I mean, we had to. 
Yeah. 

293
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,320
We were building a bathroom 
together. 

294
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,280
We were building walls together.
Picking out tile. 

295
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:38,720
Everything, everything. 
And I noticed during those times

296
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,760
it was it was hell. 
It was wow, it was hell. 

297
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:49,800
And I just, you know, investing 
so much money and time already 

298
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,440
moving to a different place, not
knowing anybody, kind of feeling

299
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,160
isolated, you know, as anxious 
attachers, we go all in. 

300
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,480
Like we put everything, which I 
admire that about us, that we 

301
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,840
really go all in within 
relationships. 

302
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,520
But I had invested so much and I
just kind of kept justifying the

303
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,280
hell that I was experiencing in 
terms of this house project and 

304
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,400
telling myself it's just 
circumstantial. 

305
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,720
It's just circumstantial. 
His behaviors, his rage, his 

306
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,200
anger, his tantrums, it's just 
circumstantial. 

307
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,520
It's just circumstantial. 
So kind of, and it wasn't all 

308
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,760
the time, but it was very, 
really immature behavior on his 

309
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,440
part where it didn't make me 
feel necessarily safe. 

310
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,560
It wasn't ever geared towards 
me. 

311
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,000
So I thought, OK, I'm safe. 
He's just angry. 

312
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,440
He's just throwing tantrums but 
it's not towards me, so I'm OK, 

313
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,000
I'm OK. 
How long did it take before it 

314
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,640
was directed at you? 
You know, it was. 

315
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,720
And here's the thing. 
Here's the thing. 

316
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,040
That's tricky, right? 
Because when I say the emotional

317
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,960
abuse, it was never verbally 
directed at me. 

318
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,800
So I thought, OK, maybe this is 
safe. 

319
00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:02,680
But the emotional manipulation 
was if he's unhappy, I'm a 

320
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,040
contributor to that, right? 
So if, if we need more money, 

321
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,720
well, Jessica, you need to make 
more money, right? 

322
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,880
If we need to do XYZ, well 
Jessica, you need to work 

323
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,160
harder. 
And so it was always this 

324
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,400
indirect accusatory language, 
right? 

325
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,000
Or just this indirect guilt that
I would take upon myself. 

326
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,080
So again, it wasn't direct, but 
it was indirect. 

327
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,120
And what happened is, and during
this time course, as you know, 

328
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:31,120
needy no more, right? 
When you're doing this work, you

329
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,960
learn to become very in tune 
with your feelings and needs. 

330
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,360
So I always practice just 
checking in. 

331
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:39,640
Hey, Jess, what are you feeling?
What are you needing? 

332
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,280
What are you feeling? 
What are you needing? 

333
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,960
And I did that enough times to 
recognize, OK, wait a second. 

334
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,400
I am not feeling good most of 
the time. 

335
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,760
And the hard part is that, you 
know, with circumstances, 

336
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,480
whether it was the house or for 
your listeners, whether the 

337
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,480
circumstances, you have kids, 
right? 

338
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,360
The circumstances is that, you 
know, you're working extra jobs 

339
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:01,720
because you're trying to pay the
bills. 

340
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,880
Like there's always 
circumstances that can kind of 

341
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,720
skew your perception of reality.
Yep. 

342
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,480
And once we finish the house, 
like we literally, I was 

343
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,880
painting. 
I'm God, I like, bro, I 

344
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,600
literally broke my back doing 
this house. 

345
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,320
I was painting the, the 
flooring, everything was set, 

346
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,920
everything was good. 
And I realized, wow, I feel the 

347
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,560
exact same. 
So it was never a circumstantial

348
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,600
issue. 
It was a personal and relational

349
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,040
issue. 
And I realized, wow, we're 

350
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,360
actually very incompatible and 
you're just not emotionally 

351
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,560
where I need you to be. 
You know, this isn't going to 

352
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,240
work. 
Yeah. 

353
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,040
That's tough. 
That's really tough. 

354
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,000
I'm sure there were a lot of 
conversations along the way to, 

355
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,120
hey, this is how I'm feeling. 
How are you feeling? 

356
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,760
How did those go? 
Like what would he say to you in

357
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,480
those moments? 
So that's another thing, Chris, 

358
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,160
that was really, really, it was 
confusing because in my past 

359
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,080
relationships and my partners 
were always very dismissive or 

360
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,240
critical, right? 
I would bring things up and they

361
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,960
would just. 
Make me feel bad about myself. 

362
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,600
The thing is, my ex, he never 
made me feel bad about it. 

363
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,200
He always listened. 
Like he was always a good 

364
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,120
listener. 
He held space for me. 

365
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,080
But The thing is, the words 
didn't align with the actions, 

366
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:17,960
right? 
He was. 

367
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,160
Very worse. 
Yeah, right. 

368
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:21,960
Yeah. 
So the words, he was very 

369
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,240
affirmative, very encouraging, 
but did the actions because what

370
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,920
I needed was support. 
I needed more support, support, 

371
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,760
support. 
And he just could not provide me

372
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,560
that support. 
He didn't really make make an 

373
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,800
effort to meet my needs in the 
way that I need it. 

374
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480
That's so tough. 
I don't know why, but Kelsey 

375
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,320
Ballerini is like popping into 
my head. 

376
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,400
I'm thinking of that song 
Mountain with a View or 

377
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,160
something like that. 
It's a really wonderful song 

378
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,600
about how she basically was 
alone like in this restaurant 

379
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,800
and she realizes, she even says 
in the song, like I realized 

380
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,800
this is when it's over for me. 
When did you realize it was over

381
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,200
for you? 
I was on a beach. 

382
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,120
Oh, my goodness. 
OK, OK. 

383
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:00,960
What? 
What beach? 

384
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,920
Where were you? 
I was on a beach in Marina del 

385
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,960
Rey. 
I live in Marina del Rey now. 

386
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,000
I was on a beach. 
So here's the thing too is that,

387
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,960
and I'm sure you probably know 
of this too, these feelings that

388
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,920
I was experiencing, it 
manifested as depression. 

389
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,680
It manifested as like this 
consistent anxiety. 

390
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,000
So I was on the beach in Marina 
del Rey and I literally, I just 

391
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,400
wanted to die. 
Like I didn't want to be alive. 

392
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,280
I didn't want to be alive. 
I felt so stuck. 

393
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,920
And this was a similar feeling 
that I felt with the abusive ex.

394
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,080
So I was like what is going on 
here? 

395
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,400
Like, I'm not being abused now, 
but why do I feel so depressed 

396
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,920
and so drained and like just 
stuck in my life? 

397
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,480
And so, you know, the 
depression, it's communicating 

398
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,560
to us. 
Your feelings are communicating 

399
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,880
to you. 
And so I realized I honestly, 

400
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,760
Chris, I didn't really have 
didn't really have an option at 

401
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,640
that point. 
It was like, this is the only 

402
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,000
thing that's causing me this 
amount of stress. 

403
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,120
I think I need to end this 
relationship. 

404
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:07,600
And as soon as I did that day, I
went, I drove to Colorado 14 

405
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,720
hours had the conversation with 
him. 

406
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,760
Obviously we cried a lot. 
But for some reason he 

407
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,680
understood because I would cry 
every week to him. 

408
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,320
It this wasn't new information 
like this was ongoing. 

409
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,560
And the very next day drove back
to California. 

410
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,520
And if when I tell you like the 
amount of relief that I felt it 

411
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,360
was, it was insane. 
The relief that I felt the 

412
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,160
weight that I could just take 
off that I don't have to carry 

413
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240
this burden of him anymore. 
I don't have to save him 

414
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,120
anymore. 
I don't have to take care of his

415
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,480
happiness. 
I don't have have to be 

416
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,240
responsible for this human's 
life anymore. 

417
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,560
It was just, it's been a very 
difficult year. 

418
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,520
But the relief was just proof 
that I made the right decision 

419
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,960
and that the Depression was 
telling me, hey girl, you got to

420
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,840
make some changes here because 
this isn't working. 

421
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,800
Well, good on you. 
I mean, for listening to your 

422
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,040
own emotions. 
Obviously there had been a lot 

423
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,680
of rounds of this for you, going
to him, expressing your 

424
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,240
feelings, trying to work on the 
relationship, hearing one thing,

425
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,720
seeing another. 
And I think it's important for 

426
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:18,240
folks to hear and understand 
that it's OK to keep trying, but

427
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,600
if you realize that more often 
than not, you're the one trying 

428
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,560
to save the relationship and 
you're the one putting in the 

429
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,440
effort and you're the one paying
the price, that you might not be

430
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,560
in the right connection for you.
There are degrees to all of 

431
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,680
this. 
And that's what makes it very 

432
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,600
challenging to leave at times 
too. 

433
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,560
Because I'm sure there was a lot
of good in the relationship. 

434
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,440
It's never all bad and it's 
never all good. 

435
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,120
It's somewhere in between and 
realizing that your system was 

436
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:54,360
telling you, I don't feel like 
this is adding to my life more 

437
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:59,040
often than not, that more often 
than not, you felt drain 

438
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,280
depressed. 
Sounds like maybe there was even

439
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,440
some suicidal ideation, which I 
want to normalize. 

440
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,960
By the way, folks, it's OK if 
you think about doing that, but 

441
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,200
if you start planning something,
that's when you know you've 

442
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,160
reached a tipping point and you 
need to reach out for resources.

443
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,640
So please know that it's OK to 
think things you are not your 

444
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,480
thoughts. 
And I think it's really 

445
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,960
beautiful that you shared that 
because there have been times 

446
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,680
where I've had thoughts like 
that too. 

447
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,360
And not enough people talk about
getting to that point and 

448
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,640
feeling so depleted and maybe so
stuck in maybe even like a 

449
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,480
freeze state of the nervous 
system, like losing yourself, 

450
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,480
not knowing what to do next, 
feeling a sense of confusion, 

451
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,760
feeling stuck. 
Seems like a lot of that was 

452
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,280
present for you. 
And I hope that there's someone 

453
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,960
listening to this who's 
struggling, you know, to maybe 

454
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,200
leave a relationship that's not 
good for them and that they feel

455
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,200
stuck in, like they can't leave 
and that you've inspired them to

456
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,240
hopefully pursue a healthier 
path for themselves. 

457
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,080
It's going to touch a lot of 
people to hear that, I know. 

458
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,760
I hope. 
Touches me to hear it. 

459
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,240
Yeah, and I love what you said 
too, about all relationships 

460
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,120
have good, like they all have 
good to it. 

461
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,240
You wouldn't be in that 
relationship with that person if

462
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,400
there wasn't any good, right. 
So and I think a lot of people 

463
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,720
too kind of get stuck on the 
good that they let that kind of 

464
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,280
overcompensate for all the bad 
and all the pain that's going 

465
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,600
on. 
And so just because there's good

466
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,000
doesn't necessarily mean that 
the relationship is good for 

467
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,840
you. 
And it doesn't necessarily mean 

468
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080
that that person is really 
compatible with you. 

469
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,280
And so that good, right, because
he is a good human. 

470
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,320
I truly, truly believe that he 
is a good human. 

471
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,280
But was he compatible with my 
needs, my emotional needs? 

472
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,800
No, he wasn't. 
And so again, like my feelings 

473
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,800
were kind of indicating that to 
me. 

474
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,440
And the more that I 
communicated, hey, this is what 

475
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,760
I'm needing in the relationship 
and it wasn't being, you know, 

476
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,000
really respected in any in any 
capacity, to be totally honest, 

477
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,880
the words were there, the 
actions, not so much. 

478
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,200
I realized, OK, I need to have 
more self worth here. 

479
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,640
And I have to have more belief 
that I can find what I am 

480
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,720
looking for. 
And this just might not be it. 

481
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,760
And that's OK. 
Like that's OK. 

482
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,880
It is OK and intermittent 
reinforcement is the toughest 

483
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,240
pattern to break because you 
really don't truly know if for 

484
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,080
when the next turn around is 
going to be or if for when that 

485
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,720
person is going to show up 
differently. 

486
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,520
Or hopefully you'll regain that 
honeymoon period that maybe you 

487
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,520
once had and the ease with which
you were able to connect at the 

488
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,040
beginning. 
You know, many people are trying

489
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,960
to recapture an era or a chapter
in their relationship that no 

490
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,000
longer exists. 
And for some people, you're not 

491
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,600
going to be able to recreate 
that. 

492
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,680
And that is also OK. 
You can reformulate and create a

493
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,760
new path for your relationship, 
but it always takes 2. 

494
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:16,040
It takes both people to say, you
know what, I'm not happy with 

495
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,240
this, I'm not happy with this. 
I think that this is how we can 

496
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,600
improve this dynamic. 
What do you think about that? 

497
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,160
What are your suggestions? 
Working as a team? 

498
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,120
It feels like in a lot of ways 
you were showing up for both 

499
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,720
people in the relationship. 
And in that regard, it can 

500
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,000
almost feel like you're working 
with someone who is a project 

501
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,040
and not a partner. 
That's tough. 

502
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,760
Yeah, that is tough. 
And I think that us anxious 

503
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200
attachers are those of us that 
lean a bit more anxiously 

504
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,680
attached that we have like the 
capacity to do it all. 

505
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,040
I really do think we have the 
capacity to do it all, but we 

506
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,120
don't have to. 
Like that's what we have to 

507
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,800
recognize is that we don't have 
to take on that burden and it's 

508
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,800
not our responsibility to make 
other people happy and we have 

509
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,120
to prioritize ourselves. 
And so in this season where I've

510
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:12,720
been single this year and two 
months now, it's been a season 

511
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,840
of just prioritizing myself, 
which Chris, I'm interested with

512
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,000
you too because it have you've 
been single? 

513
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:20,600
Have you been single for a 
while? 

514
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,840
OK. 
I have yes I'm. 

515
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,640
Curious about that. 
But yeah, it's been a season of 

516
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,040
just serving myself, which I'm 
not used to doing that because 

517
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,760
as anxious attachers, we're used
to serving others, right? 

518
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,720
Putting others first. 
So working through my own belief

519
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,160
systems of Oh my God, am I being
selfish? 

520
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,080
Am I self-centered? 
Like, should I be doing more 

521
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,800
for, for, for others? 
I don't know. 

522
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,680
It's been a very confusing time,
but I think it's also a very 

523
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,480
necessary time to kind of 
reframe these insecurities and 

524
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,520
connect to my authentic self. 
How have you been doing that 

525
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,680
over the past year? 
Plus, like, I think I've seen 

526
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,800
some travel, obviously, you 
know, I've, I've seen some 

527
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,680
family time, some friend time. 
I think I may have even seen 

528
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,240
some rollerblading and, and 
things like that, which is so LA

529
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,280
to me being on the East Coast. 
So talk to me and walk us 

530
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,240
through what your healing and 
grieving process have been like,

531
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,560
because we all know that 
breakups cause grief. 

532
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,520
Holy, how have you been 
grieving? 

533
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,480
Oh my gosh. 
So the first month it was great 

534
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,120
relief. 
The first month it was great 

535
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,600
relief. 
I was just on cloud 9, to be 

536
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,320
totally honest. 
I mean, it was, it was hard, but

537
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,160
I was just relieved. 
And then it went into a lot of 

538
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,600
loneliness, a lot of loneliness.
But in that space just really 

539
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,960
trying to reconnect. 
So like you said, did the 

540
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,120
rollerblading. 
You know, I have a nephew so I 

541
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,520
would spend a lot of time with 
my little nephew and just that 

542
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,720
met my need for, you know, 
connection and presence and 

543
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,040
playfulness. 
I got back into my spirituality.

544
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,280
So you know, practicing my 
Christian faith and reconnecting

545
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,160
to God, like feeling really 
supported in that way. 

546
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560
A lot of self help, books, 
therapy, coaching, I mean the 

547
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,720
things just trying to occupy my 
life the best I could. 

548
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,520
But I want to be totally honest.
I want to say the first six 

549
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,640
months it was just crying like 
every single day. 

550
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,880
I would like sing songs to my 
ex, like I would at least laying

551
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,160
down in my bed and like singing 
songs and crying at the same 

552
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,360
time. 
It was just, it was weird. 

553
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,360
It was very weird. 
I do a lot of yelling. 

554
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,120
I'd go into my bathroom and yell
into the the towel, you know, 

555
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,920
just to like release all of this
anger that I was feeling. 

556
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,320
So when I think about the five 
stages of grief, the denial was 

557
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,440
there here and there. 
There was definitely a lot of 

558
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,440
anger that came up. 
But I found myself in the 

559
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,640
bargaining stage a lot. 
So like as someone who kind of 

560
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,520
struggles with the anxious 
attachment too, I think that we 

561
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,280
get stuck in the bargaining 
stage of Oh my God, I could have

562
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,400
done more. 
I could have done more. 

563
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,200
I could have waited a little bit
longer. 

564
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,600
Maybe now that things were 
settled with the house, things 

565
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,320
were going to get better. 
Maybe I quit too soon on him. 

566
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,920
Maybe he was going to be happier
after a new job, right. 

567
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,880
Like all of these different 
thoughts kind of bombarding me 

568
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,000
in terms of maybe I should have 
done more. 

569
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,920
To be 100% honest, I'm still 
struggling with that. 

570
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,320
Not to the severity that I was 
before, but it still crosses my 

571
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,040
mind. 
I think I've reached a level of 

572
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,920
acceptance at this point. 
But you know, breaking those 

573
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,040
codependency habits, it's hard. 
You know, those codependent 

574
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,960
habits of wanting to fix someone
and wanting to save someone and 

575
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,240
feeling like you could do those 
things for somebody. 

576
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,440
It's very much ingrained and how
you're kind of wired to 

577
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,120
experience love. 
So that still does come up a 

578
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,160
little bit for me. 
Thank you for being so 

579
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,120
transparent about that. 
There's so many degrees to all 

580
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,200
of this and Shades of Grey where
yes, there is an element of 

581
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,040
acceptance of course, but it's 
not absolute acceptance. 

582
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,880
There's an element where you 
might question yourself or doubt

583
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,920
yourself, ask what if or be in a
state of the woulda, coulda, 

584
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,400
shoulda's. 
Yeah. 

585
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,720
And what I think is so essential
for people to take away from 

586
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,360
this is that it's OK for those 
thoughts and feelings to be 

587
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,720
present. 
And it's still, I don't want to 

588
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,600
speak for you, but it still 
probably doesn't make sense for 

589
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,320
the two of you to get back 
together because you've 

590
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,480
recognized that there is a high 
degree of misalignment in some 

591
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,280
key areas for you. 
And it is OK for all of this to 

592
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,920
exist simultaneously. 
It's OK if you miss them, even 

593
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,400
if it wasn't healthy for you. 
It's OK if you're still sad or 

594
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,280
angry or upset or regretful or 
remorseful. 

595
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,760
It's OK for you to feel all of 
those things and still 

596
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:54,320
experience, still access a state
of acceptance by saying, you 

597
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,360
know what? 
I needed to learn some things 

598
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,840
again. 
And I also went through that to 

599
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,560
recognize that, yes, maybe some 
of this was conditional, maybe 

600
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,560
some of it was situational. 
But overall, across a lot of 

601
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,200
different data points that you 
gathered over a good amount of 

602
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,760
time, you realized this probably
isn't the person for me. 

603
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,080
And all of those things can 
exist simultaneously. 

604
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,240
That kind of Gray area makes it 
very confusing for folks when 

605
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,960
they're going through a breakup.
So I love that you acknowledged 

606
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,800
the nuance and the complexities 
of what it's like to grieve 

607
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,160
because you're not going to 
absolutely accept there's 

608
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,840
relief. 
I mean, I felt relief when my 

609
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,640
dad passed and that's because he
struggled with his health for 

610
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,960
half of my life. 
And so realizing that he was at 

611
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,480
peace and quite frankly, that I 
didn't have to keep caregiving 

612
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,240
was a big deal for me. 
I've experienced relief in 

613
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,600
breakups before myself as well, 
a breakup that I initiated. 

614
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,400
I remember feeling this way. 
There's also an empowerment that

615
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,520
comes from that. 
Being on the more anxious side 

616
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,960
of things, it can be really 
challenging to be the one to 

617
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,280
say, you know what, I can't give
any more. 

618
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,480
I've reached my limit. 
And this isn't healthy for me to

619
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,120
continue. 
And as tough as it is because we

620
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,639
fear abandonment and we do feel 
a lot of isolation and 

621
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,199
loneliness, which is compounded 
by societal and cultural 

622
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,199
factors, especially now. 
But I love that you're talking 

623
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,760
about the nuance of all of this 
because it's so important for 

624
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,159
people to see that there are so 
many degrees to the grieving 

625
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,280
process. 
And it's not linear. 

626
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,199
The five stages are not linear. 
Like any healing journey, it's a

627
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,520
cycle. 
And you cycle upwards, you get 

628
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,719
more perspective. 
You might cycle back to revisit 

629
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,159
a lesson or cycle up and see it 
from a different perspective. 

630
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,960
And that is all a natural part 
of the healing journey. 

631
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,520
If you could give anyone 
struggling in their relationship

632
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
or considering ending their 
relationship a piece of advice, 

633
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,120
something that worked for you, a
tool, a practice, what would it 

634
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,040
be? 
So someone struggling to kind of

635
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,320
end their relationship in a 
sense, yes, OK, I would say 

636
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,440
that's a really good question. 
I would say again to really 

637
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,040
check in with yourself often. 
What what was really helpful for

638
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,080
me was checking in again with 
the feelings and the needs on a 

639
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,400
more consistent basis. 
Because that's going to be 

640
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,080
really telling, right? 
Like that's a pattern that you 

641
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,440
want to pick up on. 
So I would, and again, it's 

642
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,640
like, and I know that you speak 
to this too, where it's not 

643
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,800
going to be perfect, right? 
No one's going to be able to 

644
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000
meet your needs perfectly all of
the time, but you want to be 

645
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,440
feeling pretty safe and secure 
and good about your relationship

646
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,080
for the most part. 
More often than not, yeah. 

647
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,760
More often than not. 
So if you have made a habit of 

648
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,360
kind of checking in with 
yourself and you're noticing, 

649
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,120
OK, wow, I'm actually feeling 
really anxious most of the time,

650
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,160
despite my efforts to 
communicate, despite my efforts 

651
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,880
to make the relationship 
healthy, I'm feeling really 

652
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,240
disconnected and really distant 
and really unsupported and 

653
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:08,720
really unhappy and really sad 
and really alone. 

654
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:11,840
You want to listen to that. 
You definitely want to listen to

655
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,840
that. 
So that that check in really 

656
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,360
allows you to begin trusting 
yourself a bit more because that

657
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,840
self trust piece is so, so 
vital. 

658
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,920
The opposite of uncertainty 
isn't certainty, it is self 

659
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,720
trust. 
Yes, because there's so much 

660
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:28,880
around you you can't control. 
But if you're listening to 

661
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,640
yourself and what your nervous 
system and your body are telling

662
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,800
you, there's so much pride in 
that and empowerment in that. 

663
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,920
And I imagine for you, looking 
back at doing that for yourself 

664
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,080
in that era of your life, which 
is first of all, so challenging 

665
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,720
to do because for folks like us,
we're drawn externally. 

666
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,840
That is the focus. 
So what you're also teaching 

667
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,920
folks in that moment is how to 
show up as a secure attacher, to

668
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,840
listen to yourself, to advocate 
for your needs, to detach and 

669
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,480
recognize that OK, someone isn't
going to be able to meet my 

670
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,680
needs all of the time. 
They're not some sort of needs 

671
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,560
ATM. 
And you can make a withdrawal 

672
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,040
whenever you want. 
But even doing all of that, you 

673
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,680
recognized, well, I mean, I'm, 
I'm doing all of the secure, 

674
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,680
healthy things. 
So I imagine too, there's an 

675
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,160
element of pride and empowerment
in looking back at that. 

676
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,000
Have you considered that for 
yourself? 

677
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,760
Not necessarily. 
Not in that way, yeah. 

678
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,400
I hear that. 
Well, I'm proud of you. 

679
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,520
It's tough to do in those 
moments. 

680
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,440
And, you know, it's the last 
thing that folks like us tend to

681
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,400
do when we're in that kind of 
dynamic in a relationship. 

682
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,600
Yeah, I think you should be 
proud of doing that in that 

683
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,840
moment and checking in with 
yourself and listening to 

684
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,800
yourself. 
And I'm glad you said that, 

685
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,520
Chris, because in the beginning 
of the episode you mentioned how

686
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,840
when having that kind of 
insecure attachment style, we 

687
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,560
can be really hard on ourselves 
in terms of I should have done 

688
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,000
more, I should have known 
better. 

689
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,720
I should have listened to this 
and that. 

690
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,920
I yeah, I should, I should have 
known better, essentially. 

691
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,960
I think that's been coming up 
for me a lot. 

692
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,160
But but then I also like, you 
know, when I think about like my

693
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,440
secure self and I really did 
want to give it my all. 

694
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,680
Like I gave it my all. 
And I'm proud of that. 

695
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,520
I'm really proud of that because
I think I would have, in my 

696
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,320
avoidant tendencies, maybe I 
would have given up a lot 

697
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,880
sooner. 
And I didn't want to act from 

698
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,880
that space. 
I wanted to really give it a 

699
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,800
fair shot. 
So I waited until the end of 

700
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,440
this House project, right? 
To really see again when the 

701
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,120
dust settles, how? 
Do I? 

702
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,680
Yes, yeah. 
And I given the work that I was 

703
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,800
doing throughout those years and
recognizing those patterns, I 

704
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,480
realized, OK, I see the pattern 
now and I'm going to have to 

705
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,440
make a well and well informed 
decision for my life from here. 

706
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,600
What I also love about your 
journey and your story is that I

707
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,080
see this all the time in the 
people that I talk to and maybe 

708
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,080
you do too. 
There's so much judgment from an

709
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,880
anxious attachers perspective of
someone avoidant and or 

710
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,640
disorganized. 
And what you are showing people 

711
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:18,000
is that not all disorganized 
attachers, avoidant attachers 

712
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,280
are the same. 
Look at how you leaned into your

713
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,560
relationship. 
You didn't dismiss your 

714
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,080
avoidance tendencies, you 
recognized it and you made a 

715
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,880
more conscious decision. 
And This is why I always tell 

716
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,880
folks, don't rule out someone 
because of their attachment 

717
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,440
style. 
Look at the person, not the 

718
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,840
label. 
There's so much security in the 

719
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,760
way that you showed up there 
that if someone from the outside

720
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,040
were to just look at you for 
being a disorganized attacher, 

721
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,840
they would lose all of that 
context. 

722
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,800
They would throw the baby out 
with the bathwater, so to speak.

723
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,720
You know, it's kind of all or 
nothing. 

724
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,320
That kind of all or nothing 
thinking is not healthy and not 

725
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,080
helpful and not secure. 
And I love this because it. 

726
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Shows people, OK, so you've 
struggled with both sides of the

727
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,360
spectrum here of being hyper 
independent, hyper dependent to 

728
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,600
the point of codependency, and 
yet you made healthy choices in 

729
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,120
those moments in the thick of 
the struggle of your 

730
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,320
relationship. 
And people need to hear that 

731
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,560
too. 
Don't rule out someone because 

732
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,160
of their attachment style. 
There are secure elements to 

733
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,720
everyone. 
For some, there are more than 

734
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,080
others and that is OK. 
Remember that all of this is a 

735
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,640
spectrum. 
There's a lot of nuance to this.

736
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,160
Look at the person and not the 
label. 

737
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,080
Because if someone were to look 
at you or me based on our 

738
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,000
attachment styles and I know 
that both of us would likely 

739
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,720
consider ourselves more secure. 
Now, you know, I've always said 

740
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,200
now that I consider myself about
75 to 80% secure and then the 

741
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,440
remaining percentage, 20 to 25% 
is still anxious. 

742
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,760
It's still there, it exists. 
I don't indulge it as much as I 

743
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,680
used to. 
It doesn't last as long, it's 

744
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,800
not as intense. 
The bounce back period is a lot 

745
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,840
quicker and I would imagine the 
same is true for you. 

746
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,840
But I want people to hear and 
understand that. 

747
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,880
Do you have anything to add to 
that for folks listening? 

748
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,880
Yeah, I like that you said that 
because I know a lot of people 

749
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,400
that, you know, they're dating 
someone initial stages of dating

750
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,080
and, and I can see where this 
can maybe be helpful to give you

751
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,920
some information, but they'll 
give them the attachment style 

752
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,320
quiz and make a decision off 
that from that, you know, and 

753
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,840
and I get that that could give 
you some feedback in terms of, 

754
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,320
you know, kind of what you're 
looking for, but you can't just 

755
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,920
write people off based off of a 
label. 

756
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,760
And so there's more that you 
want to assess. 

757
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,000
And yes, for me, obviously, you 
know, I have predominantly this 

758
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,360
insecure attachment style 
growing up, but it was important

759
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,440
for me. 
Like I value growth and I value,

760
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,760
you know, just healing and I 
value self help and I value 

761
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,400
therapy and I value all of these
things to help me evolve into a 

762
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,880
better person. 
And am I taking action steps to 

763
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,880
align with that version? 
Yes. 

764
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,600
So I think that those are the 
questions too that you want to 

765
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,800
ask the people that you get into
a relationship with is what are 

766
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,760
your values? 
What what are you doing to align

767
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,480
with those values? 
Do you actually take action to 

768
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,440
align with those values? 
And that's just going to be more

769
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,920
telling and more indicative of, 
you know, is this a suitable 

770
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,480
partner or? 
100% couldn't agree more. 

771
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,160
Yes and many people will also 
ask like hey are you in therapy?

772
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Do you know your attachment 
style? 

773
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,920
Just because they might not be 
in therapy or they might not 

774
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,440
know their attachment style, it 
doesn't mean that they're not 

775
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,720
aware of some of their 
behaviors. 

776
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:59,720
And there are many different 
paths to healing, so try not to 

777
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:04,560
be for those listening to rigid 
in your expectations of what 

778
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,280
someone should have done or not 
done. 

779
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,840
Realize that some people are 
self healers and they listen to 

780
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,440
podcasts and they read books and
they watch YouTube videos. 

781
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,600
Other people hire professionals.
Some people do a mix of all the 

782
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,280
above. 
There is no one path to growing 

783
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,560
more secure. 
There's a lot of different entry

784
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,080
points. 
The journey is winding and it is

785
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,160
one that lasts a lifetime. 
Look for indications that the 

786
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,400
person is self aware, that they 
are even aware of their values. 

787
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,800
If they can't tell you their 
values, that might be a good 

788
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,560
indication that especially if 
you are on the more anxious side

789
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,800
of things, you might not have 
someone who has the depth that 

790
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,360
you desire. 
It doesn't make them a bad 

791
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,840
person, but it might mean that 
they are not aligned in the ways

792
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,160
that you need. 
Yeah. 

793
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,600
Now I want to talk about 
developing a secure attachment 

794
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,040
style because that's the work 
that we both do. 

795
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,320
Really everything we're putting 
out there is helping people to 

796
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,040
understand themselves and work 
towards a more secure attachment

797
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,400
style, towards the secure side 
of the attachment spectrum. 

798
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,640
Yeah. 
Talk to me about some things 

799
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,640
that have worked for you and 
what you pass along to your 

800
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,840
therapy and coaching clients. 
Yeah, good question. 

801
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,680
So that's the goal, right? 
That's the goal is to kind of 

802
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,120
shift from that insecure to 
secure way of relating to 

803
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,720
yourself and others. 
So I like to work with the 

804
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,560
secure self archetype and I 
don't know if I ever brought 

805
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,800
this up to you necessarily, but 
it's I call it the secure self 

806
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,000
archetype. 
And essentially, you know, when 

807
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,000
you think of like internal 
family systems, there's a lot of

808
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,160
different parts to us, OK. 
And these parts can be very 

809
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,600
sabotaging in a lot of ways, but
you know, naturally they're 

810
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,400
there to help us. 
The thing is when we didn't 

811
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,120
really have a healthy model 
growing up, we don't really know

812
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,360
how to take care of those parts.
So we tend to be in conflict 

813
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,920
with, you know, our anxious 
part. 

814
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,720
We tend to be in conflict with 
our self critical part, right? 

815
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:11,240
There's lots of different parts 
to us. 

816
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,080
So in developing your secure 
self, it's really just 

817
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,960
cultivating a secure part to you
that can kind of help you 

818
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,840
navigate all of the challenges 
that that come up for you. 

819
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,440
If you don't have that part to 
you, then you're going to have a

820
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,280
really hard time. 
So in terms of cultivating your 

821
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,960
secure self to your listeners, 
it's really getting clear on 

822
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,720
again, OK, what what are your 
values? 

823
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,200
You know, what are your 
relationship values? 

824
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,680
Is it that you value growth, 
that you value compassion, 

825
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,480
kindness, partnership? 
So getting really clear on that 

826
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,040
blueprint for you. 
You know, what Chris talks about

827
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:51,200
so much is the needs. 
What are your relationship 

828
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,160
needs? 
Getting clear on that, 

829
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,440
connecting to your feelings, 
learning how to really sit still

830
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,120
with your feelings as anxious 
attachers were super impulsive 

831
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,800
when we're feeling any kind of 
discomfort. 

832
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,840
So really learning, you know, 
some somatic practices, self 

833
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,720
regulation to just sit before 
reacting, sit before reacting, 

834
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,360
learning how to fill your own 
void. 

835
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,080
Right. 
So creating a support system, 

836
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,960
hobbies that you like, you know,
creating a community of people 

837
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,800
that you like, people that can 
support you just learning how to

838
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,320
become more of a whole person in
that sense. 

839
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,800
Yeah, and a lot of that, too, 
comes with self compassion. 

840
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,160
When you think of your secure 
self, there's that's a really 

841
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,480
compassionate and accepting 
flexible part of you. 

842
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,320
So that part of you is really 
going to come in handy. 

843
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,440
You know, throughout this year 
of just grieving, she's really 

844
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,560
come in handy in terms of like 
how I talk to myself. 

845
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,120
You know, I soothe myself from 
that secure version of me where 

846
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,680
I'll put my hand on my heart and
I'll just say really loving 

847
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,720
things to myself. 
Like, hey, Jess, you're going to

848
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:54,080
be OK. 
I got you. 

849
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,280
I support you. 
I mean, it is the most 

850
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,880
compassionate, loving part of 
you. 

851
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,600
And I think it's important to to
cultivate that within you if you

852
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,880
haven't done so yet. 
That's so powerful for people to

853
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,000
hear and I love ifs and parts 
work because of this. 

854
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,040
There is a secure part to 
everyone. 

855
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,920
You're not just anxious. 
No one is 100% an anxious 

856
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,120
attacher or disorganized attach 
or any kind of attacher even 

857
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,760
100% secure. 
That doesn't exist either. 

858
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,880
There are degrees to all of 
this, and this seems to be an 

859
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,800
emerging theme from our 
conversation today. 

860
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,760
A lot of nuance and complexity 
exists within everything, and 

861
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,480
that includes you cultivating as
you so beautifully put that 

862
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,680
relationship with yourself. 
And pouring love, affection, 

863
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:47,400
time, energy, support, 
encouragement into that part of 

864
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,680
you helps to lift all of the 
other parts as well. 

865
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,280
Inner child work is related to 
this, to, you know, you're 

866
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,080
accessing versions of yourself 
that went through those 

867
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,840
experiences that were really 
hurt, that were invalidated or 

868
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,960
unsafe, that felt that 
unpredictability and instability

869
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,040
that so many of us recognize 
from our childhoods. 

870
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,840
And I love that you said that 
because I think it's so 

871
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,880
important for people to realize 
there is that part in you 

872
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,000
already. 
And we can bolster and 

873
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,840
strengthen that. 
We can give them the lead seat 

874
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,520
at the table. 
They can run this committee, if 

875
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,840
you will. 
And I love that analogy because 

876
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,960
it really, I almost think of 
like the Knights of the Round 

877
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,560
Table or something when I hear 
that, like, you know, you're all

878
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,320
gathering around the table, but 
at the end of the day, the 

879
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,120
secure self is leading the 
charge. 

880
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,360
They're hearing everyone out. 
They're saying, OK, that's a 

881
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,200
valid point. 
Thank you for bringing that to 

882
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,400
our attention. 
We'll consider that. 

883
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,560
Thank you. 
And moving forward. 

884
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,960
And I love that too, because it 
lets people know you know, this 

885
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,200
is really ultimately all about 
listening to yourself. 100 

886
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,440
percent, 100%, yeah. 
The listening, the self 

887
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,680
compassion, the self acceptance,
it's all tied in. 

888
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,680
As we're nearing the end of our 
conversation today, I want to 

889
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,960
ask you anything else you feel 
anxious attachers listening or 

890
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,600
watching should know. 
Like what is your elevator pitch

891
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,760
for them? 
What what's your one liner or 

892
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,720
what what comes to mind when you
think of anything we didn't 

893
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:27,800
cover today that you want them 
to take away from this 

894
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,880
conversation or maybe isn't 
something that we even got to 

895
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,800
talk about today. 
I feel like we covered so much 

896
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,320
good stuff. 
But yeah, I would just say then 

897
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:45,280
rather than outsourcing so much,
practice inner sourcing because 

898
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:51,040
you have such a big heart, you 
have so much love to give, and 

899
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,640
if you can just give some of 
that to yourself and know that 

900
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,240
you're capable of doing that, I 
think it's just such a beautiful

901
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:01,800
practice to again, cultivate and
develop that relationship with 

902
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,120
yourself. 
Anxious attachers were so used 

903
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,920
to kind of outsourcing and 
getting that external 

904
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,200
validation, that external 
reassurance, that external love,

905
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,200
and you have so much of that 
within you already. 

906
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,040
So if you can just source that 
from within yourself, I think 

907
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,280
that's such a beautiful practice
of self love and self trust. 

908
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,200
And something that I always like
to tell, you know, my students, 

909
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,880
my clients, people that you 
know, come work with me is get 

910
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,320
into the habit of asking 
yourself what would secure me? 

911
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,400
Do you know what would secure 
me? 

912
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,440
Do I think that's such a good 
guiding system in terms of 

913
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,560
helping you realign right to 
that part of you? 

914
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,920
I even have it on to my mug here
to remind me every day. 

915
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,360
What? 
Would secure that is precious. 

916
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,320
I love that. 
And it has my brand colors too, 

917
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,200
the purple. 
And such a dork. 

918
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,400
But it, well, you have to remind
yourself, because we can get so 

919
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,680
lost. 
We can get so lost in the sauce.

920
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,840
And yeah, I think it's just a 
kind of a good grounding 

921
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,000
question to ask yourself. 
Amen. 

922
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,840
Great note to end on One thing 
I'm going to link in the notes 

923
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,040
for folks listening today is a 
breakup guide that I have, which

924
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,200
is actually an excerpt of a 
chapter from Needy No More, the 

925
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,280
book and it's 4 tips for anxious
attachers going through a 

926
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,800
breakup because we talked about 
your breakup. 

927
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,680
And I think that's kind of the 
theme of today too, is that 

928
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,840
relationship with yourself and 
rediscovering yourself. 

929
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:29,760
So I'm going to link that for 
folks. 

930
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,720
I'll create a URL. 
It'll be crack lift Comm slash 

931
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,400
breakup. 
I will also link that in the 

932
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,760
show notes. 
I would love for you to share 

933
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,040
with folks watching and 
listening how they can find you 

934
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,200
online, any resources that you 
might have available to them. 

935
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,000
How can folks discover you? 
Because you've got great content

936
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,080
on Instagram and TikTok and all 
over, so how can people find 

937
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,360
you? 
Yeah, so you can find me on 

938
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,480
Instagram with the Jessica De 
Silva. 

939
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,040
I don't post too much on TikTok 
anymore, but I think it's 

940
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,280
Jessica De Silva coaching on 
TikTok. 

941
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,640
And then my website, 
jessicadesilvacoaching.com. 

942
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,640
Honestly, if you just go on the 
website, it has all the links on

943
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,880
there. 
My podcast, Let's Talk 

944
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,040
Attachments podcast, one-on-one 
coaching especially I kind of 

945
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:15,760
work with all the attachment 
styles. 

946
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,360
So you know, if you have some 
someone who maybe is avoidantly 

947
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,160
attached, we can work on that 
too. 

948
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:22,880
And then I have an E course, 
it's the My Secure Self E 

949
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,800
course, so that's available as 
well. 

950
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:29,400
Jessica de silvacoaching.com 
Yep, great, fabulous. 

951
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,400
Thank you so much, Jessica. 
This has been a wonderful 

952
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,440
conversation. 
I knew that it would be very 

953
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,360
first guest episode in the 
books, and I'm so happy that we 

954
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,280
got to share that milestone 
together. 

955
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,880
Thank you so much. 
Thank you so much, Chris. 

956
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,920
And I just wanted to say, like I
love your compassionate approach

957
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,960
to this. 
When you speak, it feels very 

958
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,040
encouraging, very warm. 
And so I'm just very grateful 

959
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,560
for you and for this 
opportunity.