Hello everyone, and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast
dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style.
I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and
author Chris Ratcliffe. I've helped thousands of people
across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment
through my books, workshops, digital downloads, and coaching
program. I'm excited to carry on that
mission here on the show, sharing tools and techniques,
principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to
growing more secure. Welcome back to the show,
everyone. I'm really super excited to dive
in today. We have a very, very special
guest who I will introduce now. Erica Etten is the founder of A
Little Nudge, A consulting company that helps people
navigate the world of online dating from first Click to first
date. Erica studied economics at
Cornell University and received her MBA from Georgetown.
She started A Little Nudge in 2011 after a 7 year career as an
economist. She is responsible for many
relationships, marriages and the confidence some people simply
need to get out there. A Little Nudge has been featured
in media around the country, including The New York Times,
The Washington Post, NPRCBS and Ask Men.
And she currently writes a weekly syndicated dating column.
Erica, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on.
For having me, I'm like, I know her, she sounds.
Great she does and I already know this episode is going to
pack a punch for the anxious attachers and disorganized
attachers leaning anxious listening to this.
I want to start out by just asking why a little nudge.
Where did that name come from for you?
It's. The first name I thought of when
I knew I wanted to start the business.
I brainstormed and it was the first name I thought of because
I thought I'm not doing everything for everyone.
I'm giving people a little nudge.
And so the website was taken by the way, so, but there was
nothing on it. It was like someone had bought
it and just parked it there. And so, you know, it's public
record who owns stuff, so you can look that up.
So I don't know some guy. And so I wrote to some guy and
said, hello, I'm just a nice girl who wants to start a
business. Can you please sell me the
domain? And, and he did.
And so I got a little nudge and I think it's perfect for for
what I do. I think it is and I'm very
familiar with your content. I love the no nonsense approach
and thank you. The practicality that you offer
of really helping people to approach conversations on dating
apps, how to navigate the whole process from matching to
coordinating the date to going on the date, etcetera.
But for those who might not be familiar with your work, tell us
about it. OK, so I started the business 15
years ago this month and I help people.
It started out all aspects of online dating.
Now it's sort of expanded to all aspects of dating, but I
consider my job, Whether you do online dating or not, totally up
to you. But if you are going to do it, I
want to make sure you're doing it as well and efficiently and
successfully as possible. And so a lot of my advice
centers around, yeah, how to have, how to present yourself.
Well, you know, online dating is marketing of you.
So I want to make sure you're marketing yourself.
It also centers around how to have conversations on the apps
so that you are efficiently getting to the date if you want
to go on a date with this person.
So a lot of people do get stuck in that conversation stage and
they end up with pen pals, and that's not really helping
anyone. And then a big part of what I do
is the communication aspect. So once you've met someone, how
do you communicate with them? How do you communicate your
likes, your dislikes, your needs?
How do you ask for clarification?
A lot of people, and I know we have a lot of overlap, a lot of
people have anxiety around asking for what they want,
asking for clarification, cutting things off when they
know it's not what they want. And so if I can help someone
through that process too, that is equally successful to me as
getting you in a relationship. Sure, yeah, cutting off things
that aren't working gets you closer to something that might
be more in alignment. Exactly.
So really anything dating related I'm comfortable with.
Love it. Maybe a tough question here
right off the bat, but what's some of the worst dating advice
you've either heard lately or recently?
Like, give us some of the things that really get under your skin
that you've heard there's. So much bad advice out there.
It drives me bonkers. And I just hope people can
differentiate because there's click bait advice, which is very
divisive, which gets views. And then there's like normal.
I like to think my advice is normal, down to earth, pretty
like even keeled advice, which is not click baity, but it's
consistent. OK, so some bad advice that
really gets my goat. When when someone tells women
that they should never go on a coffee date because they're
quote low effort, it's like get over yourself.
Like it's coffee. It's, it's like, that's not the
hill to die on, you know? I've never heard that before.
Oh my God, it's it's, it's everywhere.
It's like if he asks you on a coffee date, he's not
interested. He's low effort, he's dating
everyone. And it's like, I think some
people equate effort with money. And so they would rather, if
it's a woman dating a man, they would rather the man pick this
expensive restaurant in his backyard than come up with, oh,
I found this cute coffee spot near you.
And it has a nice little walk we could do after if we're enjoying
ours. That's effort, you know?
And so it's not that black and white.
That advice bothers me so much. Some people set up all these
obstacles before a first date. Well, I have to talk for this
long and then I have to exchange numbers and then I have to have
three phone calls and then I have to have a FaceTime.
And it's like, just go on a date.
It's an hour out of. Your life, Arbitrary rules.
Yeah, you. Know it's an hour your life.
If you don't like them, who cares?
At least now you haven't spent all that time with all of these
obstacles because you could grow a connection to someone in
advance and there's not hit it off in person.
I'd rather you know that sooner rather than later.
I think getting to in person is so important because so many of
us are trying to put our best foot forward online on social
media and dating apps, which is not a problem per SE, but
sometimes things don't quite translate in person, you know?
Exactly. Sometimes you're not hearing
their voice, you can't see their gesticulation, you don't
understand the intonation. There's so much that's lost in
translation through a screen that in person going on a date
can give you that data. Completely agree.
I was just talking to a woman actually right before this who
was insistent on having a phone call with people before the date
and I said if that works for you, I don't want to change your
process. However, what a lot of people
forget is they're using this phone call as a vetting
mechanism to essentially cut people to say no.
And I said, I just want you to remember they can cut you too.
Because I had a client recently, and I don't say that to be rude,
but I had a client recently who insisted on a phone call.
She like really liked the guy on a phone call and he declined
seeing her after the call. We have to remember it works
both ways. If you're trying to rule people
out, they're going to do the same.
And so I'd rather just everyone have an opportunity to meet face
to face and just see how you feel.
Is your advice to transition to IRL sooner rather than later
then? Few messages back and forth.
Make sure the person seems like decently normal, whatever that
means to you. Make sure they don't get gross.
4 criteria, really. Make sure they ask you questions
back, they show some curiosity about you. 2 Make sure they
don't get gross or sexual. Three, make sure they complete
in like mildly complete sentences, not like HMU, wyd
whatever, just like they speak like a grown up.
You up? Yeah, you can't even.
And four, they can lock down a plan.
Unfortunately, many people don't satisfy those 4 criteria, in
which case you're never getting to a date.
But if they do, I would go on a date, yeah.
I've seen a good amount of your content that has been tied to a
poll of your audience to get a sense of should this person go
On this date when things might be a little bit confusing or
nebulous? Like what are some tips that you
have for folks watching or listening when they might be a
little bit confused? Are we still on for the date?
How do I confirm the date? The confirmation, oh, that's
another piece of it. Oh, oh, OK, that's another one
that I hate. The advice, it's usually someone
telling women who date men, if you don't hear from him the day
of the date, you're not going, which is so very wrong.
OK, so my rules of date confirmation are when you set up
the date time, date location once that's all all arranged, I
don't care what day or how many days in advance you have a date.
OK, let's say it's arranged though four or five days in
advance. I agree that you want a final,
see you there, whatever. It makes everybody feel better.
However, we can't assume that if you don't get that the date is
off because nobody has cancelled.
So my rule is if you have arranged the date more than two
days in advance, on the day before the date, simply say
looking forward to seeing you tomorrow.
Not are we still on? Because are we still on
indicates a lack of trust, a sort of weakness in the process,
a lack of confidence. Whereas looking forward to
seeing you tomorrow is, yeah, obviously it's on.
We arranged this date. That's the confident approach.
A lot of women don't want to do that last confirmation because
they think he should know to do it.
I am telling you he does not know to do it because a lot of
men makes the thing, put it in the calendar and think we're on,
I show up, it's done. Exactly.
And so it's like women thinking that men think how women think,
and men thinking that women think how men think.
And everybody loses if we don't open our mouths.
Very, very well said. I love the positive confirmation
aspect because that positive assumption does carry a lot of
confidence and security for folks who are anxious attaching
or might lean that way. You know, sometimes we can get
in our head and sometimes we can question, well, I haven't heard
from them. Is this still on?
Unless you hear otherwise, you should assume that the plan that
you have coordinated is still correct.
Positive assumption. Absolutely.
That's my rule. But again, like I said, it is
nice to do that day before I'll see you there because it feels
good. But I understand getting in your
head and thinking, you know, we haven't talked in three days.
I can tell you from the guy's perspective, he's probably
thinking, well, I got the date, I don't want to screw this all
up. I better shut my mouth and do
it. Yeah, that might be for the
best. Yeah, sometimes it's best that
we close our mouths until we get on the date and get back.
You know, I hate to make that. You know, I work with everyone.
I hate to make this one gender normative, heteronormative.
But I will say it is a lot of women thinking the men should do
this, men thinking. And it's like, let's stop with
the shoulds. I think that's really potent and
powerful for people to hear. Don't assume the other person is
exactly like you, thinks like you, feels the way that you do.
Especially early on in dating, you haven't really gotten to
know that person. You don't know their
personality, their character. You haven't really gotten an
assessment of who they are. And so in the absence of that,
it's best to keep an open mind, try not to judge, and look at it
as an exploration because many of the people you go on dates
with are probably not going to translate to 2nd dates.
And that's OK. And that's OK.
Yeah, You might just end up being acquaintances.
You might not ever see one another again.
Speak. Again, whatever, it's fine.
I mean that's why I teach dating NATO not attached to outcome.
Which does help with anxiety because if you go into a date
thinking I need to find out if this is my future, fill in the
blank, spouse, partner, whatever, that puts too much
pressure on you and this other person, right?
Instead, I want you to go in thinking I'm going to meet a new
person, let's see what happens. We can't predict the future, why
bother trying? I don't want you to leave that
date knowing really anything other than did I have a nice
enough time, did I smile? Did I feel good?
Am I curious about this other? Basically, do I want to have one
more conversation with this person?
If yes, go on another date. If no, don't.
There's a lot of future tripping that anxious attachers can
experience. So sometimes when we're excited
about a person, we might already be planning the relationship.
We might even be at the altar with that person in our minds
thinking, does this have the potential to go that far?
Could they be a long term partner?
Try to bring the focus back everyone.
I know it can be hard. It's OK to be excited, but you
have to measure that excitement. Cautious optimism is something
that I espouse in my work. Be optimistic.
Of course, it's great to connect with someone and to have a good
conversation on an app or even in real life, and to want to see
them again. However, we don't know that they
feel the same, and it's important to allow the process
to unfold naturally. Completely agree and on the flip
side of that, equally stressful is I don't know how I feel.
So do I keep going out with them because I don't want to mislead
them? I deal with people who say this
all the time and I say if you're continuing to go out with
someone to see how you feel, you are not misleading someone.
Leading someone on is knowing you don't want to see them, that
that's leading somebody on. I'll give an example.
I have a woman who I'm working with right now.
She's been seeing a guy for maybe a month and a half, OK,
And she likes him. She clearly likes him enough.
She keeps going out with him and after every date she has a nice
time and she's stressing her out herself out so much to the point
of like, I don't know if this is it.
And I said you don't need to know.
Let's take it one day to at a time.
And they went to a hockey game last weekend and I said I told
her to pretend the world ends at midnight.
And so there is no future. So can you just enjoy the hockey
game? You know, and every time you
think what, what is tomorrow, what is next, There is no
tomorrow. She found that to be very
helpful. Does that advice work for
everyone? No, but for someone who's trying
to think too far into the future either way it might be helpful.
Well, tomorrow is truly never guaranteed and the.
Future is, so have fun. Only an idea.
Have fun at the boy aquarium. Yes, absolutely.
And for fans of heated rivalry, I'm sure that, you know, going
to a hockey game is even spicier nowadays than it ever has been.
What do you have to say to folks who might be hesitant to date
again after getting their heart broken?
Because many of the folks that I speak to and work with are, if
they're not currently in a tough relationship dynamic, have had a
series of experiences that have been defined by emotional
unavailability, by inconsistency, by folks who
really didn't choose them fully. So there's a lot, a lot of
apprehension and anxiety and worry and doubt about the
process. What do you have to say to those
folks? You always take a risk in life.
Anytime you do anything in life, but especially open your heart
to somebody, it's a known risk that you're taking, the risk
that you could get hurt and the risk that you could hurt
somebody else. And so you could never date
again and you will avoid that hurt.
That. Look, that's a valid option if
that's what you want. However, if someone is at the
point of coming to me, that's not what they want because
they've sought out someone to help with dating, right?
So we talked about that inherent risk and instead of making it
something, woe is me, I could always be broken up with.
I could always have my heart ripped out.
I try to make it a more empowering tool.
Everything in life is at will, meaning anyone can leave you at
any time and you can leave anyone at any time.
So it's scary on the one hand, but it's also the most
empowering thing because you control that.
That does help sometimes, but no, it is hard knowing that
putting yourself out there could lead to heartbreak, but could
also lead to the best experience of your life.
And so I try to make things more tangible, more bite sized
chunks. Let's not think about that.
Let's think of like going on one date, you know, let's go through
the motions of creating the profile, reaching out to people.
Let's do one step at a time. So everything feels a little bit
less overwhelming. Like are you A to do list type
person you? I'm asking you.
I am. I am too because I find that
it's so satisfying to cross things off the To Do List, even
if it was a simple thing. So I try to get clients to do
that too, So they're not thinking of Oh my gosh, I'm
dating now. It's more I sent out three
messages today. So I like sort of bite sized
tangible steps in the process. Not this big scary thing.
So break it down into practical steps.
Instead of thinking conceptually about what could happen, focus
on just the next best step or choice that you can make.
Exactly because of course it feels like this horrible Gray
cloud over you. If you are always worried about
getting your heart broken, how about let's worry about, you
know, getting back to people in 24 hours if they've written you
a message, you know? That's a good rule to keep.
What are some other communication tips that you have
for folks who are actively dating?
Communication is something many anxious attachers are innately
good at because they're emotionally intelligent, and
that's been hard won through a good amount of trauma, usually
from growing up usually too. But how do they navigate
communication with a little more confidence?
How do they get over the idea of double texting or worrying about
receiving a response back? What do you have to say to that?
What is my line? If they like you, they won't
mind, and if they don't, they won't care.
You can always tell yourself that.
If they like you. If they like you, they won't
mind an extra text, and if they don't, they won't care.
So either way, you're not losing.
Send the text. It's not like an obsessive, you
know 8 texts in a row. But like I don't like to jump to
conclusions. So let's say for example someone
has been consistent with you in their communication and one day
they are inconsistent and we don't know why.
Rather than jumping to they've ghosted me, they've completely
lost interest. Two things you can do here.
One, give the benefit of the doubt.
We are coming from a track record of consistency.
So rather than jumping to conclusions, let's lead with
curiosity and say I haven't heard from you.
I usually do. Are you OK?
That's number one. Because that assumes they're one
day of inconsistency has nothing to do with you.
And that's the irregularity. Correct.
Or two Huh, I don't like inconsistency.
Does this work for me? That's the other way to look at
it. Not did they stop liking me, but
more. I like consistency.
Maybe this isn't for me. And if you see this over the
course of have a few more experiences with them or dates
with them, then potentially this does become a pattern rather
than a one off experience. Exactly.
Yeah. And so it's like, in the nicest
way possible, none of us is special.
We're all very special, obviously.
But sometimes things don't have to do with us.
Like, you know, a lot of people who are anxiously attached,
let's say, for example, you text your friend and they don't get
back to you. A lot of people will think, Oh
my gosh, why is my friend mad at me?
It has nothing to do with you. Your friend is not mad at you.
Your friend got busy, you know? And so it's like a life lesson
that is important to remember. Again, in the nicest way, we're
not special, and it's so freeing when we remember that.
Like not everything is about us. Yes, not taking things
personally can be really, really challenging, Yeah.
Want to hear something funny? Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt.
All good, yeah. What's funny, I was working with
this client and she puts too much value on being in a
relationship. She thinks it defines her value,
which obviously it does not. I'm not a therapist, which I'm
very clear about, but it does creep into that territory
sometimes. And we've, I mean, she sees a
therapist, but we were talking about it and she was taking a
trip by herself and she said, I'm trying to get over the
mindset of like, everyone's looking at me by myself.
I'm a loser. And I'm like, first of all,
they're looking at you thinking first of all, they're not
looking at you. And 2nd, if anything, it's like,
good for her. She's traveling by herself.
But so I said to her what I just said in the nicest way, nobody
cares about you with love. You know what I mean?
And it was funny. I was, I was repeating this
story to a friend of mine at lunch.
And I said that I had said, nobody cares about you.
And at that very moment, the waitress came over and she goes,
she thought I was being mean to my friend because I go, nobody
cares about she goes, no, people care.
But I'm like, I know, it was so funny.
The worst time to overhear? It was so I'm like, I'm not a
jerk. I'm a very nice person.
It's really funny. Oh my goodness.
Look, I think it's a really good point to under score here that
people have other things going on.
We are all managing a lot times are really stressful.
We have more on our plate than perhaps we ever have.
There's a lot of distraction in our culture and busyness is
celebrated nowadays. And so I think it's important to
remember, try to not take it personally because there's a lot
of other viable valid excuses for why they're not responding.
And what's most important here is to recognize your own
personal desire to communicate. And for clarity, that's the data
that your nervous system, your body, your brain is all telling
you in that moment. So if you want to communicate
what your system is telling you that you do, then communicate.
Try to do so from a space of, again, positive assumption, not
assuming something is wrong, but you can check in and say similar
to what you mentioned, Erica, you know, usually I hear from
you by now and I haven't exactly.
How's your day been? Right.
And if you're afraid to ask for clarification like that, you can
always go through the worst case scenario in your head and the
outcome is never as bad as that. Okay, worst case, you check in
and you never hear from them again.
I guess you're ghosted, In which case that tells you way more
about the other person than it does you.
It tells you that the other person is a is, is a coward and
can't communicate when they're not interested.
That's not someone you want to be with.
Or they could come back and be like, how dare you double text
me? That's not somebody you want to
be with. And so it's like you always kind
of get what you want from communicating, even if it's not
what you actually want because you get information.
And in the early stages of dating, we're collecting
information and then we're using that information decide if to
decide if we want to keep dating them.
Very well said. I love the whole data gathering
approach to early stages. The former.
Economist, though, you know comes.
With. I was wondering if that factored
in here. I like data for you.
I mean, I think yeah, I really like, I've always been
analytical and I like data and and look, in dating, nothing is
a science, right? But but I do think of it like
data collection because sometimes when we get too far
ahead of ourselves, we forget that we're still learning about
this person. We think it's a foregone
conclusion. And sometimes people think the
other person has answers that we don't like.
Why can't they just tell me they're ready to be?
They don't know they want to be with you yet either.
And so everyone has to take an active role.
That speaks to a common theme in some of your responses that I'm
picking up that I want to name, which is really important for
anxious attachers to hear. And that is to remember that you
have a sense of agency, correct? You are not at the mercy of of
whether or not someone wants to keep seeing you.
You get to determine for yourself the level of alignment
present, if you feel the kind of safety that as an anxious
attacher or disorganized attacher leaning anxious, you
absolutely must have in order to feel secure in your connection
or to have enough security to pursue something further.
So remember that if you're watching or listening, you get
to decide for yourself. You always have agency and that
is the most empowering thing that you can remember when you
are dating. 100% Can you tell me more about disorganized
attachment? I don't really know about that.
Of course, yes. Disorganized attachment or
fearful avoidant attachment or anxious avoidant attachment.
They are. Yes.
Depending on the attachment model, you might hear one or the
other used. I like the one word.
Yeah, yeah. Labels for the style so anxious,
avoidant, disorganized, secure. So tell me more about
disorganized. A disorganized attacher
struggles with both anxious and avoidant tendencies.
OK, it can be the most volatile and unpredictable of all of the
attachment experiences. Because one minute you might be
struggling with desiring closeness, not knowing where you
stand with someone, having a deep fear of them leaving,
cheating. That's the anxious part.
And then the next minute you might feel smothered by that
person. You might feel like you need
space. You might feel like I need to
disengage. And so you bounce back and forth
between these extremes, sometimes minute to minute or
hour to hour day-to-day. Question for you, So you're more
of an expert in attachment style.
I get, obviously I work with a lot of people who come to me and
say I have an anxious attachment style where I'm anxiously
attached and I will sometimes push back.
And I'd like your opinion on this because I know about
attachment theory, obviously, but I do sometimes feel that
people use the term as a crutch to explain why they're doing the
behavior they're doing rather than looking into the individual
situation to assess how they feel in that moment.
So for example, you're coming to me and saying, well, I behave
this way because I'm anxiously attached.
Well, maybe this person just clearly did something to make
you feel anxious. And so I try to separate the
title from the actual feeling. Is that something?
Love it. OK.
I wanted to hear your opinion on that.
Definitely philosophically aligned with how I have always
approached this work. Everything is context dependent.
Anxious attachment is a pattern that has developed over the
course of several experiences for many folks.
This isn't true for everyone, but for many folks this pattern
is also directly traceable to experiences from early
development or childhood. So you have a lot of instability
in the environment growing up. Maybe there was a divorce, maybe
there was a lot of conflict. Maybe you just never had the
opportunity to discuss feelings at home.
Maybe when you were crying you were told go to your room until
you're finished. There's a lot of different
expressions of trauma and invalidation and instability,
but for many folks, that is true.
It comes in a lot of different flavors and forms and
experiences, but it is a pattern.
It is not just experienced in one relationship.
Now, of course, every relationship we have either
helps us grow more secure or more insecure.
And it's important to remember that attachment styles are not
fixed. It's always.
What you just said exactly. I think sometimes labels make
things seem fixed, and I agree that this is dynamic.
I consider myself secure now. Part of my whole approach to
this work is that I used to struggle with anxious
attachment. I know what it's like to be up
at 3:00 AM Sure checking Instagram story.
Right. Did they text me back?
Did they look at my story? Did they fill in the blank?
Exactly. Yes, the protest behavior, the
baiting of posting online specifically so that person will
see it in the hopes that they'll interact with it they're.
Human, we all are. And so with that in mind, you
know, I, I understand the struggles of my clients very
intimately and can call them out compassionately when they might
be in that space because we know where that goes.
And again, to the point of agency, remembering you can't
control what the other person does or doesn't do, but you can
speak up for yourself if you're noticing a pattern of behavior
from a specific person of inconsistency, feeling unsafe in
the connection, so not really knowing where you stand with
them or knowing what they want. And you can always ask for
clarity. And to your point, Erica, the
data we gather by doing this is something many anxious attachers
robbed themselves of by not speaking up.
Exactly. So it can be a self fulfilling
prophecy here whereby withholding you might protect
yourself, but you keep yourself confused.
If you honor your need for clarity, then even if you don't
like the response, which to be fair, you're going to experience
a reaction to, but learning to be with those emotional
responses is essential for growing more secure.
Your partner, no matter how secure they are, is going to
trigger you. You're going to be disappointed
by them. They are a human being.
So. It it's always context dependent
to get back to your question, but this is usually a pattern
over the course of. Multiplications very, very well,
said an example I got on Monday when someone submitted a
question, she said. I've been dating someone for
three months. I really want to bring up the
define the relationship conversation, but I'm afraid
this person will say they're not ready.
And I responded that you could live in the status quo and try
to protect yourself and protect the other person and not get
what you want, or you could bring it up.
You may not get what you want or you may get exactly what you
want, but what you will get is information to decide how to
move forward. And I said that three months is
a very appropriate time to bring that up.
Absolutely, yes, there's the three month rule for a reason.
That's generally. I don't have a rule.
What is this 3 month rule? I like the.
I like 3 months. I mean, that's kind of my
threshold too when I give the advice, but.
I'm not sure where this came from but or where I even heard
it from, but it's just so prevalent in dating and in our
society that I guess three months is enough time to gather
enough data. It is.
Too. Or maybe people can't wear a
mask beyond that point. Right.
I do think sometimes people, especially those with anxious
attachment, do try to lock things down too early sometimes
because it feels more stable. If you have a title, if you have
defined the relationship. And I advise against that
because it's actually a false sense of stability if you
haven't built a solid foundation yet.
Also, I say this ad nauseam, but the behavior you're getting
before you decide to be exclusive is the exact behavior
you're getting after. And so if you want to lock
something down because you think now someone is going to be more
responsive to you or a better partner, that's not true.
And so don't lock something down when I say lock it down, you
know, exclusivity, partner, boyfriend, girl, whatever you
want to call it until you know that that's the behavior you
want. Very well said and one of my
favorite quotes of all time when it comes to relationships and
dating is from Doctor John Van EPP who wrote How to Avoid
Falling in Love with a Jerk and he writes.
Great title but really substantive book in which he
says your experiences dating with someone is as good as it
gets in a marriage with that person. 100% if anything it'll
go down. Not change it, right?
Yes, yeah, exactly. And following that, he says the
good usually gets worse and the worst stays the same.
Correct. Yeah.
It's like, it's like if you're at a job, do you usually get
promoted because you've been doing the job of the promotion
level and then the title just goes with it?
Yes. It's not like, oh, I've been
doing really well for a week, so they just promoted me to
president and now I do the. No, that's not how it works.
Absolutely. Great point.
I want to circle back to the defining the relationship moment
just because that is something that is top of mind for many
anxious attachers. Absolutely.
I have a recommendation for folks, which is always to
approach this by asking for what you want by declaring what you
desire. Agree.
OK, I wanted to make sure you're in alignment with that.
My approach is always to just say, hey, I've really been
enjoying getting to know you. I've loved our dates.
So you always want to talk about what it is that specifically you
like about the person and the connection.
Try not to be super general or nebulous, just because those
kinds of compliments can feel canned, I suppose.
And then say what it is that you want.
I'm feeling like I'm ready to take our connection to the next
level. How are you feeling about that
I? Fully agree with everything you
just said. OK, wonderful.
I love the idea of the open-ended question too and
allowing the other person to speak.
Don't ask a leading question like Are you ready to be in a
relationship with me? Which feels very pressuring, but
say how do you feel about that? And just see what they say.
Don't lead them to a certain response that you desire.
No notes. I totally agree.
I get a question all the time. How do I ask what are we?
And my answer is exactly what you just said.
No one gets to define what we are.
You define what you No one can determine for you what we are,
Right. So I agree.
You go in saying exactly what you want.
I'm at a point whatever you just said.
Yeah, same thing. How do you feel about that?
What are we, my goodness? Well it's like, why are you
ceding all of the decision making to the other person?
That point right there, yes, Again, back to the point of
agency, asking for what you desire is one of the strongest
things that you can do to try to get what it is that you desire.
By naming it specifically, it doesn't guarantee that the other
person is going to acquiesce or give it to you.
But whether it's saying, you know, I would like to check in
throughout the day, how does that sound to you?
How would that work for you? How can we make that happen in a
way that works for both of us? You know, trying to be inclusive
and collaborative I think is something that many people
overlook. And when you know what you want,
which might be half the battle for folks, then the other half
is declaring it. Not framing it as a question,
but saying what you are ready for or what would help you to
feel more connected, more appreciated, more understood,
more loved and cared for. Right.
And it's always best to know if you're not going to get that
versus, again, sitting in the status quo not getting what you
want because you're afraid to ask for it.
Data, data, data information. Exactly.
Don't rob yourself of receiving that by not speaking.
Yep, we're in alignment. Love it.
I figured we would be good. That's why I wanted to have you
on the show. Thanks.
Of course. OK, so for anxious attachers,
getting into a long term relationship, the first secure
relationship or stable experience after the string of
insecure, unstable, uncertain ones can also be really
challenging. And I have a lot of experience
working with clients who have a lot of doubt who might question,
I don't know, I don't feel that chemistry that's bar.
And I just wrote, I have a book coming out next year and I wrote
a whole section on this. Tell us, distill it down.
It's, I think it comes under the umbrella umbrella of self
sabotage because if you're not used to this feeling of safety,
it might feel boring and you might want to escape because
you're like, well, this person can't be it because I don't feel
excited all the time. That excitement might have been
the roller coaster you were on because you never knew what you
were getting from this other person you were dating.
Safety doesn't feel exciting sometimes, but that doesn't make
it worse. It makes it better because at
least it's predictable. You know what you're going to
get. But I don't think people mean to
self sabotage, you know? But sometimes when something is
unfamiliar, it feels wrong. But it it could be very right.
We just have to accept it. Reacquainting your nervous
system and reorienting it towards what safety actually
feels like and redefining that as good versus bad is important.
And also, as I tell people all the time, it feels like
something is missing because it is.
You don't have the confusion. You don't have.
I love. Having you said that.
Thank you. You don't have the cortisol, you
don't have the adrenaline, you don't have the experience of not
knowing where you stand, which is unusual.
And many anxious attachers like to be in the role of the
pursuer, the fixer, the chaser. And when you step out of that,
it feels deeply uncomfortable and very unusual, right?
But that is because of what you named, which is that it is just
unfamiliar to your nervous system.
Right. And it feels more comfortable
sometimes, you know, a lot of anxious attachers are waiting
for the other shoe to drop at all times of every day, which is
exhausting. And sometimes they'll get out of
a situation because it's more comfortable to get a certain no,
even if it's self-imposed, than an uncertain maybe or
relationship. Learning to live in the
uncertainty. That was gonna be my really
hard. Exactly.
It is very hard, but it's a worthwhile lesson.
Yes, I mean holistically in your life too, because.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't even just mean in
dating. Sure.
Yeah, yeah. When you're interviewing for a
job, you don't know who the other candidates are.
When you're dating someone, you don't know who else they're
dating and how those experiences are going.
You don't know anything, and it's best to again, bring that
focus back to yourself. Remember what you bring to the
table, exactly what the folks watching and listening,
qualities of yourself that you know other people appreciate,
that your friends tell you. You know that you're loyal, or
you're commutative or you're funny or whatever it might be.
Right. And if stay?
Rooted in that. And if someone doesn't see that
in you in the end, then you shouldn't be with that person.
You know? Someone once said this to me and
I loved it. Your essence is the thing that
you love the most about yourself that someone else will love too.
If someone doesn't love your essence, screw them.
They're not your partner. If someone doesn't love your
essence, they're not your. Yeah, if they don't love the
things that you love about yourself, like if you tell corny
jokes, I don't want you to be with someone who rolls their
eyes at your corny jokes. I want you to be with someone
who finds those corny jokes that you love endearing.
I don't want you to be with someone apologetically.
It just keeps getting better and better.
Keep going. Can I?
Stop now. I'm done.
My goodness, I want your take on
this. I've heard that consideration is
the highest form of love. What do you think about that?
Like consideration for another person.
Like consideration similar to what you were just saying,
considering someone's essence, learning someone over time.
Like, for instance, if you know that your partner hits snooze
and you know that they're going to miss an appointment and you
don't want them to be uncaffeinated when they go to
this appointment, so you make them their coffee, Things like
that. I think consideration is
extremely important. Noticing things, all of that,
yeah, all really important. On the flip side, I will say
nobody is perfect. And so I think sometimes we have
to remember that everyone has, I call them perceived flaws.
Everyone has a set of perceived flaws.
They're not actual flaws, they're not red flags.
But a perceived flaw could be the corny jokes, it could be
that you hit snooze, It could be any of the examples we just
said, right, whatever, There's that's nothing wrong.
It's just a personality thing, right?
Anyone you end up with is going to have some set of these, and
you just basically have to decide which ones you can live
with and which you can't because you're not going to change
someone, nor should you. You're not going to change
someone, nor should you perceived flaws.
Yeah. Of course.
Yeah, So, you know, many people call it the ick.
You know, I got the ick because of this person did this thing.
OK, you may not like that. You may not like how they laugh.
Someone else might love it. It's not a flaw.
It's a perceived flaw. Can you live with it?
Great. If it's too much and you can't,
that's fine. It's just, it's not that they're
bad, it's just not for you. At a certain point we have to
decide which ones we can live with and which we can't.
But yes, I don't know how I got on that.
But yes, consideration is an important part of love, of
course. I love this because I just did a
bonus episode on the show, a kind of 15 minute rant about
being cringe in dating and the ick in dating, and how being
real and raw and vulnerable can be really scary.
But in order to have a real connection, the kind of depth
that many anxious attachers desire but don't bring to the
table, usually, you've got to be real yourself.
And sometimes that might feel very uncomfortable.
You might feel very cringy double texting or declaring what
you desire like we talked about, but unless you're willing to put
it out there, you're probably not going to just have it land
in your lap. Yeah, I agree with that.
And I just thought of one other thing on the consideration
topic. You have to be doing considerate
things because you want to be doing them, not because you want
credit. Huge pet peeve when someone does
something nice and then they say, well, I did that.
Yeah, we noticed. And now you negated it by
telling me you did it. I got it.
We all got it, you know? And it's like you should be
doing it because you want to do it, not because you want the
other person to notice or because you want a point in your
favor. I know many anxious attachers
need to hear that because they are accustomed to over
functioning in their relationships to try to earn
that love and affection and belonging, and yet when they do
this, it creates oftentimes an imbalance in the dynamic.
It does, it does. So I have a lot of people who I
use the same word over function and it's because they are so
anxious that it's not going to get done so I better do it or
else it's not going to get done. I can relate in my personal life
in that I'm a planner with most of my friends right?
And sometimes I feel frustrated because certain friends aren't
as our friendship isn't as equal.
I feel like I'm the one driving it.
And so sometimes instead of taking charge like I would
normally do, I say here's when I'm available, here's what time
I'm free. Can you plan something for us?
I'm having a really busy week. If they don't, I've learned the
information I need and it's OK if we don't see each other that
week. And with anxious attachers, it's
important to become comfortable seeing what people are capable
of without you jumping in and doing it for them first.
I get it. I'm type A, you know.
Same, same. And many anxious attachers are
because of, you know, the experiences that they've been
through that have informed that yeah, sure, yeah.
And it's OK to be an organized person.
It's OK to be a planner. And often times what I find, at
least in relationships, is one person is usually better at
planning than the other. And identifying and respecting
that is very important. But what you communicated that
is very subtle that I want to identify for folks watching and
listening is you didn't just stay silent in your friendship,
you communicated your availability and you requested
for them to plan something. There's a saying that
uncommunicated expectations turn into real resentments.
I see you smiling. Yes, you're familiar with this.
It's true. It's a great statement because
it's the truth. Absolutely, yes.
And of course, you're going to grow resentful when you're
holding it all in. But the other person doesn't
know what you want inherently. They can't read your mind.
So what you did is you establish the expectation.
You gave them the time that you were available.
And regardless of whether it worked, you honored yourself.
Back to the agency component here for folks to hear.
You can always let someone know. And I just had this conversation
with a client of mine the other day who's been on four dates
with someone and is hoping that the other person might plan
something instead. And I told him, great, that's
not a problem, but communicate that.
Make that expectation. I would love for you to plan our
next date simple and if if that other person says absolutely
not, well then stop dating them. Yeah, 'cause you can't put in
all the effort, you can't make all the reservations or all the
plans. No, no.
And part of the data gathering, too, is the fun, the excitement
of seeing like, where are they going to?
What did they come up with? Exactly.
Yeah, that's the fun in this, too.
And I don't want that to get lost in translation for folks
either. Like dating can be challenging,
and it comes with a whole slew of emotional experiences, some
of which are not very pleasant, but it can also be really fun.
Yeah. And it should be fun.
I know it feels functional sometimes, but the word fun is
in functional. I want it to be fun because if
you're not having fun in the early, like ultimately whoever
you decide to date, you should be having fun.
So I don't want the dating process to be devoid of fun.
Like I always thought it was funny on the Bachelor.
I remember it was pilot Pete who it was not a good season anyway,
it doesn't matter. He was like, I'm not here to
have fun. I'm here to meet my wife.
And I thought process of meeting your wife should be fun.
And also, it's the Bachelor. Like you're in a helicopter in
Fiji. Like, is that OK?
Is that not fun? They're not.
Usually exclusive anyway. Yeah, I I think this hits at
something that I want to name for people to which is embody
your values in values based dating.
It's not about checking off a list of does this person value
honesty and integrity and communication and fun.
It's about you bringing that to the table and seeing how they
respond to it. So if in planning yourself a fun
date for the two of you, that person doesn't enjoy it, they
don't respond well to it, that is important for you to
understand. And this will naturally drive
some people away, which is uncomfortable, but it is OK.
It is. Erica, this has been a fabulous,
wonderful conversation. There's so many Nuggets of
wisdom from today that I know people will be circling back to
and listening to again. How can people find you and any
resources you want to share before we depart today?
You can find me anywhere. A little nudge, my website,
Instagram, a little nut just dating coach Erica.
I'm pretty easy to find anyone who's considering working with
me. I always offer a free 20 minute
consultation to see if we're the right fit.
So you're more than welcome to do that.
You can find that link anywhere online.
But I think it's clear I love my job, I love working with people
and I see success in so many different forms.
Success is not, to me being in a relationship.
Success is being happy in whatever form that comes in.
And if if you learning how to end something after three dates
because they're not the right one for you, that is equally
successful. And so, yeah, I'll end with
that. That's real, that's progress,
and that is growth. That means growing more secure
as well in yourself and in whatever stage you might be in
on your relationship journey. Erica, thank you so much for
taking the time. This was really fun.
It was, and for those watching and listening, I'll see you next
time.