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Hello everyone, and welcome back
to Needy No More, the podcast 

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dedicated to healing the anxious
attachment style. 

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I'm your host, anxious 
attachment style coach and 

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author Chris Ratcliffe. 
I've helped thousands of people 

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across 6 continents to end the 
cycle of anxious attachment 

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through my books, workshops, 
digital downloads, and coaching 

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program. 
I'm excited to carry on that 

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mission here on the show, 
sharing tools and techniques, 

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principles and practices for you
to explore on your journey to 

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growing more secure. 
Welcome back to the show, 

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everyone. 
I'm really super excited to dive

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in today. 
We have a very, very special 

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guest who I will introduce now. 
Erica Etten is the founder of A 

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Little Nudge, A consulting 
company that helps people 

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navigate the world of online 
dating from first Click to first

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date. 
Erica studied economics at 

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Cornell University and received 
her MBA from Georgetown. 

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She started A Little Nudge in 
2011 after a 7 year career as an

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economist. 
She is responsible for many 

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relationships, marriages and the
confidence some people simply 

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need to get out there. 
A Little Nudge has been featured

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in media around the country, 
including The New York Times, 

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The Washington Post, NPRCBS and 
Ask Men. 

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And she currently writes a 
weekly syndicated dating column.

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Erica, welcome to the show. 
Thanks for coming on. 

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For having me, I'm like, I know 
her, she sounds. 

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Great she does and I already 
know this episode is going to 

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pack a punch for the anxious 
attachers and disorganized 

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attachers leaning anxious 
listening to this. 

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I want to start out by just 
asking why a little nudge. 

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Where did that name come from 
for you? 

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It's. 
The first name I thought of when

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I knew I wanted to start the 
business. 

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I brainstormed and it was the 
first name I thought of because 

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I thought I'm not doing 
everything for everyone. 

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I'm giving people a little 
nudge. 

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And so the website was taken by 
the way, so, but there was 

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nothing on it. 
It was like someone had bought 

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it and just parked it there. 
And so, you know, it's public 

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record who owns stuff, so you 
can look that up. 

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So I don't know some guy. 
And so I wrote to some guy and 

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said, hello, I'm just a nice 
girl who wants to start a 

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business. 
Can you please sell me the 

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domain? 
And, and he did. 

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And so I got a little nudge and 
I think it's perfect for for 

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what I do. 
I think it is and I'm very 

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familiar with your content. 
I love the no nonsense approach 

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and thank you. 
The practicality that you offer 

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of really helping people to 
approach conversations on dating

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apps, how to navigate the whole 
process from matching to 

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coordinating the date to going 
on the date, etcetera. 

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But for those who might not be 
familiar with your work, tell us

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about it. 
OK, so I started the business 15

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years ago this month and I help 
people. 

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It started out all aspects of 
online dating. 

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Now it's sort of expanded to all
aspects of dating, but I 

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consider my job, Whether you do 
online dating or not, totally up

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to you. 
But if you are going to do it, I

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want to make sure you're doing 
it as well and efficiently and 

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successfully as possible. 
And so a lot of my advice 

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centers around, yeah, how to 
have, how to present yourself. 

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Well, you know, online dating is
marketing of you. 

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So I want to make sure you're 
marketing yourself. 

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It also centers around how to 
have conversations on the apps 

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so that you are efficiently 
getting to the date if you want 

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to go on a date with this 
person. 

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So a lot of people do get stuck 
in that conversation stage and 

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they end up with pen pals, and 
that's not really helping 

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anyone. 
And then a big part of what I do

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is the communication aspect. 
So once you've met someone, how 

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do you communicate with them? 
How do you communicate your 

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likes, your dislikes, your 
needs? 

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How do you ask for 
clarification? 

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A lot of people, and I know we 
have a lot of overlap, a lot of 

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people have anxiety around 
asking for what they want, 

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asking for clarification, 
cutting things off when they 

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know it's not what they want. 
And so if I can help someone 

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through that process too, that 
is equally successful to me as 

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getting you in a relationship. 
Sure, yeah, cutting off things 

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that aren't working gets you 
closer to something that might 

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be more in alignment. 
Exactly. 

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So really anything dating 
related I'm comfortable with. 

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Love it. 
Maybe a tough question here 

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right off the bat, but what's 
some of the worst dating advice 

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you've either heard lately or 
recently? 

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Like, give us some of the things
that really get under your skin 

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that you've heard there's. 
So much bad advice out there. 

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It drives me bonkers. 
And I just hope people can 

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differentiate because there's 
click bait advice, which is very

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divisive, which gets views. 
And then there's like normal. 

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I like to think my advice is 
normal, down to earth, pretty 

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like even keeled advice, which 
is not click baity, but it's 

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consistent. 
OK, so some bad advice that 

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really gets my goat. 
When when someone tells women 

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that they should never go on a 
coffee date because they're 

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quote low effort, it's like get 
over yourself. 

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Like it's coffee. 
It's, it's like, that's not the 

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hill to die on, you know? 
I've never heard that before. 

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Oh my God, it's it's, it's 
everywhere. 

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It's like if he asks you on a 
coffee date, he's not 

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interested. 
He's low effort, he's dating 

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everyone. 
And it's like, I think some 

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people equate effort with money.
And so they would rather, if 

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it's a woman dating a man, they 
would rather the man pick this 

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expensive restaurant in his 
backyard than come up with, oh, 

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I found this cute coffee spot 
near you. 

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And it has a nice little walk we
could do after if we're enjoying

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ours. 
That's effort, you know? 

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And so it's not that black and 
white. 

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That advice bothers me so much. 
Some people set up all these 

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obstacles before a first date. 
Well, I have to talk for this 

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long and then I have to exchange
numbers and then I have to have 

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three phone calls and then I 
have to have a FaceTime. 

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And it's like, just go on a 
date. 

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It's an hour out of. 
Your life, Arbitrary rules. 

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Yeah, you. 
Know it's an hour your life. 

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If you don't like them, who 
cares? 

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At least now you haven't spent 
all that time with all of these 

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obstacles because you could grow
a connection to someone in 

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advance and there's not hit it 
off in person. 

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I'd rather you know that sooner 
rather than later. 

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I think getting to in person is 
so important because so many of 

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us are trying to put our best 
foot forward online on social 

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media and dating apps, which is 
not a problem per SE, but 

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sometimes things don't quite 
translate in person, you know? 

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Exactly. 
Sometimes you're not hearing 

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their voice, you can't see their
gesticulation, you don't 

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understand the intonation. 
There's so much that's lost in 

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translation through a screen 
that in person going on a date 

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can give you that data. 
Completely agree. 

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I was just talking to a woman 
actually right before this who 

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was insistent on having a phone 
call with people before the date

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and I said if that works for 
you, I don't want to change your

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process. 
However, what a lot of people 

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forget is they're using this 
phone call as a vetting 

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mechanism to essentially cut 
people to say no. 

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And I said, I just want you to 
remember they can cut you too. 

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Because I had a client recently,
and I don't say that to be rude,

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but I had a client recently who 
insisted on a phone call. 

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She like really liked the guy on
a phone call and he declined 

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seeing her after the call. 
We have to remember it works 

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both ways. 
If you're trying to rule people 

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out, they're going to do the 
same. 

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And so I'd rather just everyone 
have an opportunity to meet face

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to face and just see how you 
feel. 

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Is your advice to transition to 
IRL sooner rather than later 

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then? 
Few messages back and forth. 

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Make sure the person seems like 
decently normal, whatever that 

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means to you. 
Make sure they don't get gross. 

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4 criteria, really. 
Make sure they ask you questions

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back, they show some curiosity 
about you. 2 Make sure they 

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don't get gross or sexual. 
Three, make sure they complete 

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in like mildly complete 
sentences, not like HMU, wyd 

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whatever, just like they speak 
like a grown up. 

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You up? 
Yeah, you can't even. 

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And four, they can lock down a 
plan. 

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Unfortunately, many people don't
satisfy those 4 criteria, in 

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which case you're never getting 
to a date. 

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But if they do, I would go on a 
date, yeah. 

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I've seen a good amount of your 
content that has been tied to a 

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poll of your audience to get a 
sense of should this person go 

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On this date when things might 
be a little bit confusing or 

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nebulous? 
Like what are some tips that you

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have for folks watching or 
listening when they might be a 

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little bit confused? 
Are we still on for the date? 

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How do I confirm the date? 
The confirmation, oh, that's 

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another piece of it. 
Oh, oh, OK, that's another one 

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that I hate. 
The advice, it's usually someone

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telling women who date men, if 
you don't hear from him the day 

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of the date, you're not going, 
which is so very wrong. 

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OK, so my rules of date 
confirmation are when you set up

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the date time, date location 
once that's all all arranged, I 

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don't care what day or how many 
days in advance you have a date.

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OK, let's say it's arranged 
though four or five days in 

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advance. 
I agree that you want a final, 

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see you there, whatever. 
It makes everybody feel better. 

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However, we can't assume that if
you don't get that the date is 

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off because nobody has 
cancelled. 

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So my rule is if you have 
arranged the date more than two 

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days in advance, on the day 
before the date, simply say 

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looking forward to seeing you 
tomorrow. 

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Not are we still on? 
Because are we still on 

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indicates a lack of trust, a 
sort of weakness in the process,

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a lack of confidence. 
Whereas looking forward to 

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seeing you tomorrow is, yeah, 
obviously it's on. 

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We arranged this date. 
That's the confident approach. 

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A lot of women don't want to do 
that last confirmation because 

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they think he should know to do 
it. 

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I am telling you he does not 
know to do it because a lot of 

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men makes the thing, put it in 
the calendar and think we're on,

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I show up, it's done. 
Exactly. 

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And so it's like women thinking 
that men think how women think, 

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and men thinking that women 
think how men think. 

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And everybody loses if we don't 
open our mouths. 

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Very, very well said. 
I love the positive confirmation

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aspect because that positive 
assumption does carry a lot of 

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confidence and security for 
folks who are anxious attaching 

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or might lean that way. 
You know, sometimes we can get 

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in our head and sometimes we can
question, well, I haven't heard 

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from them. 
Is this still on? 

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Unless you hear otherwise, you 
should assume that the plan that

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you have coordinated is still 
correct. 

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Positive assumption. 
Absolutely. 

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That's my rule. 
But again, like I said, it is 

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nice to do that day before I'll 
see you there because it feels 

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good. 
But I understand getting in your

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head and thinking, you know, we 
haven't talked in three days. 

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I can tell you from the guy's 
perspective, he's probably 

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thinking, well, I got the date, 
I don't want to screw this all 

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up. 
I better shut my mouth and do 

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it. 
Yeah, that might be for the 

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best. 
Yeah, sometimes it's best that 

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we close our mouths until we get
on the date and get back. 

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You know, I hate to make that. 
You know, I work with everyone. 

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I hate to make this one gender 
normative, heteronormative. 

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But I will say it is a lot of 
women thinking the men should do

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this, men thinking. 
And it's like, let's stop with 

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the shoulds. 
I think that's really potent and

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powerful for people to hear. 
Don't assume the other person is

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exactly like you, thinks like 
you, feels the way that you do. 

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Especially early on in dating, 
you haven't really gotten to 

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know that person. 
You don't know their 

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personality, their character. 
You haven't really gotten an 

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assessment of who they are. 
And so in the absence of that, 

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it's best to keep an open mind, 
try not to judge, and look at it

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as an exploration because many 
of the people you go on dates 

227
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,520
with are probably not going to 
translate to 2nd dates. 

228
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,400
And that's OK. 
And that's OK. 

229
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,960
Yeah, You might just end up 
being acquaintances. 

230
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,800
You might not ever see one 
another again. 

231
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,320
Speak. 
Again, whatever, it's fine. 

232
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:15,960
I mean that's why I teach dating
NATO not attached to outcome. 

233
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,360
Which does help with anxiety 
because if you go into a date 

234
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,600
thinking I need to find out if 
this is my future, fill in the 

235
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,600
blank, spouse, partner, 
whatever, that puts too much 

236
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,960
pressure on you and this other 
person, right? 

237
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,760
Instead, I want you to go in 
thinking I'm going to meet a new

238
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,440
person, let's see what happens. 
We can't predict the future, why

239
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,800
bother trying? 
I don't want you to leave that 

240
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,560
date knowing really anything 
other than did I have a nice 

241
00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:48,240
enough time, did I smile? 
Did I feel good? 

242
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,440
Am I curious about this other? 
Basically, do I want to have one

243
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,160
more conversation with this 
person? 

244
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,480
If yes, go on another date. 
If no, don't. 

245
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,000
There's a lot of future tripping
that anxious attachers can 

246
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,800
experience. 
So sometimes when we're excited 

247
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,200
about a person, we might already
be planning the relationship. 

248
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,920
We might even be at the altar 
with that person in our minds 

249
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,640
thinking, does this have the 
potential to go that far? 

250
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,280
Could they be a long term 
partner? 

251
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,080
Try to bring the focus back 
everyone. 

252
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,640
I know it can be hard. 
It's OK to be excited, but you 

253
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,800
have to measure that excitement.
Cautious optimism is something 

254
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,960
that I espouse in my work. 
Be optimistic. 

255
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,880
Of course, it's great to connect
with someone and to have a good 

256
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,760
conversation on an app or even 
in real life, and to want to see

257
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,280
them again. 
However, we don't know that they

258
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,160
feel the same, and it's 
important to allow the process 

259
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,560
to unfold naturally. 
Completely agree and on the flip

260
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:53,120
side of that, equally stressful 
is I don't know how I feel. 

261
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,920
So do I keep going out with them
because I don't want to mislead 

262
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,200
them? 
I deal with people who say this 

263
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,560
all the time and I say if you're
continuing to go out with 

264
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,040
someone to see how you feel, you
are not misleading someone. 

265
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,320
Leading someone on is knowing 
you don't want to see them, that

266
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,400
that's leading somebody on. 
I'll give an example. 

267
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,240
I have a woman who I'm working 
with right now. 

268
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,840
She's been seeing a guy for 
maybe a month and a half, OK, 

269
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,080
And she likes him. 
She clearly likes him enough. 

270
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,640
She keeps going out with him and
after every date she has a nice 

271
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,800
time and she's stressing her out
herself out so much to the point

272
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,000
of like, I don't know if this is
it. 

273
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:27,720
And I said you don't need to 
know. 

274
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,120
Let's take it one day to at a 
time. 

275
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,680
And they went to a hockey game 
last weekend and I said I told 

276
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,640
her to pretend the world ends at
midnight. 

277
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,440
And so there is no future. 
So can you just enjoy the hockey

278
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,520
game? 
You know, and every time you 

279
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,440
think what, what is tomorrow, 
what is next, There is no 

280
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,680
tomorrow. 
She found that to be very 

281
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,200
helpful. 
Does that advice work for 

282
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,560
everyone? 
No, but for someone who's trying

283
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,800
to think too far into the future
either way it might be helpful. 

284
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,360
Well, tomorrow is truly never 
guaranteed and the. 

285
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,640
Future is, so have fun. 
Only an idea. 

286
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,440
Have fun at the boy aquarium. 
Yes, absolutely. 

287
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,280
And for fans of heated rivalry, 
I'm sure that, you know, going 

288
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,920
to a hockey game is even spicier
nowadays than it ever has been. 

289
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,120
What do you have to say to folks
who might be hesitant to date 

290
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,680
again after getting their heart 
broken? 

291
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:28,560
Because many of the folks that I
speak to and work with are, if 

292
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,920
they're not currently in a tough
relationship dynamic, have had a

293
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,280
series of experiences that have 
been defined by emotional 

294
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,880
unavailability, by 
inconsistency, by folks who 

295
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,000
really didn't choose them fully.
So there's a lot, a lot of 

296
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,160
apprehension and anxiety and 
worry and doubt about the 

297
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,320
process. 
What do you have to say to those

298
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,760
folks? 
You always take a risk in life. 

299
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,280
Anytime you do anything in life,
but especially open your heart 

300
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,000
to somebody, it's a known risk 
that you're taking, the risk 

301
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,760
that you could get hurt and the 
risk that you could hurt 

302
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,840
somebody else. 
And so you could never date 

303
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,440
again and you will avoid that 
hurt. 

304
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,360
That. 
Look, that's a valid option if 

305
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,320
that's what you want. 
However, if someone is at the 

306
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,160
point of coming to me, that's 
not what they want because 

307
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,240
they've sought out someone to 
help with dating, right? 

308
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,640
So we talked about that inherent
risk and instead of making it 

309
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,640
something, woe is me, I could 
always be broken up with. 

310
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,160
I could always have my heart 
ripped out. 

311
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,520
I try to make it a more 
empowering tool. 

312
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,600
Everything in life is at will, 
meaning anyone can leave you at 

313
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,480
any time and you can leave 
anyone at any time. 

314
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,720
So it's scary on the one hand, 
but it's also the most 

315
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,840
empowering thing because you 
control that. 

316
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,480
That does help sometimes, but 
no, it is hard knowing that 

317
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,560
putting yourself out there could
lead to heartbreak, but could 

318
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,800
also lead to the best experience
of your life. 

319
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,200
And so I try to make things more
tangible, more bite sized 

320
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,560
chunks. 
Let's not think about that. 

321
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,040
Let's think of like going on one
date, you know, let's go through

322
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,760
the motions of creating the 
profile, reaching out to people.

323
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,240
Let's do one step at a time. 
So everything feels a little bit

324
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,680
less overwhelming. 
Like are you A to do list type 

325
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,440
person you? 
I'm asking you. 

326
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,720
I am. 
I am too because I find that 

327
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,960
it's so satisfying to cross 
things off the To Do List, even 

328
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,520
if it was a simple thing. 
So I try to get clients to do 

329
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,400
that too, So they're not 
thinking of Oh my gosh, I'm 

330
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,240
dating now. 
It's more I sent out three 

331
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,720
messages today. 
So I like sort of bite sized 

332
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,200
tangible steps in the process. 
Not this big scary thing. 

333
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,680
So break it down into practical 
steps. 

334
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,200
Instead of thinking conceptually
about what could happen, focus 

335
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,120
on just the next best step or 
choice that you can make. 

336
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:54,840
Exactly because of course it 
feels like this horrible Gray 

337
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,800
cloud over you. 
If you are always worried about 

338
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,760
getting your heart broken, how 
about let's worry about, you 

339
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,320
know, getting back to people in 
24 hours if they've written you 

340
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,400
a message, you know? 
That's a good rule to keep. 

341
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,040
What are some other 
communication tips that you have

342
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,560
for folks who are actively 
dating? 

343
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,600
Communication is something many 
anxious attachers are innately 

344
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,040
good at because they're 
emotionally intelligent, and 

345
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,800
that's been hard won through a 
good amount of trauma, usually 

346
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,760
from growing up usually too. 
But how do they navigate 

347
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,880
communication with a little more
confidence? 

348
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,520
How do they get over the idea of
double texting or worrying about

349
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,240
receiving a response back? 
What do you have to say to that?

350
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,760
What is my line? 
If they like you, they won't 

351
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,480
mind, and if they don't, they 
won't care. 

352
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,000
You can always tell yourself 
that. 

353
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,960
If they like you. 
If they like you, they won't 

354
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,160
mind an extra text, and if they 
don't, they won't care. 

355
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,120
So either way, you're not 
losing. 

356
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,080
Send the text. 
It's not like an obsessive, you 

357
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,600
know 8 texts in a row. 
But like I don't like to jump to

358
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,080
conclusions. 
So let's say for example someone

359
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,400
has been consistent with you in 
their communication and one day 

360
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,440
they are inconsistent and we 
don't know why. 

361
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,680
Rather than jumping to they've 
ghosted me, they've completely 

362
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,840
lost interest. 
Two things you can do here. 

363
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,200
One, give the benefit of the 
doubt. 

364
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,080
We are coming from a track 
record of consistency. 

365
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,560
So rather than jumping to 
conclusions, let's lead with 

366
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,040
curiosity and say I haven't 
heard from you. 

367
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,400
I usually do. 
Are you OK? 

368
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,960
That's number one. 
Because that assumes they're one

369
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,960
day of inconsistency has nothing
to do with you. 

370
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,040
And that's the irregularity. 
Correct. 

371
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,360
Or two Huh, I don't like 
inconsistency. 

372
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,920
Does this work for me? 
That's the other way to look at 

373
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,600
it. 
Not did they stop liking me, but

374
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,280
more. 
I like consistency. 

375
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,080
Maybe this isn't for me. 
And if you see this over the 

376
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,000
course of have a few more 
experiences with them or dates 

377
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,040
with them, then potentially this
does become a pattern rather 

378
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,680
than a one off experience. 
Exactly. 

379
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,960
Yeah. 
And so it's like, in the nicest 

380
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,200
way possible, none of us is 
special. 

381
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,600
We're all very special, 
obviously. 

382
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,520
But sometimes things don't have 
to do with us. 

383
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,520
Like, you know, a lot of people 
who are anxiously attached, 

384
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,480
let's say, for example, you text
your friend and they don't get 

385
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:21,960
back to you. 
A lot of people will think, Oh 

386
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,440
my gosh, why is my friend mad at
me? 

387
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,200
It has nothing to do with you. 
Your friend is not mad at you. 

388
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,960
Your friend got busy, you know? 
And so it's like a life lesson 

389
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,640
that is important to remember. 
Again, in the nicest way, we're 

390
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,960
not special, and it's so freeing
when we remember that. 

391
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520
Like not everything is about us.
Yes, not taking things 

392
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,040
personally can be really, really
challenging, Yeah. 

393
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,280
Want to hear something funny? 
Yeah. 

394
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:48,440
Yeah, I didn't mean to 
interrupt. 

395
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,960
All good, yeah. 
What's funny, I was working with

396
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:58,160
this client and she puts too 
much value on being in a 

397
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,320
relationship. 
She thinks it defines her value,

398
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,120
which obviously it does not. 
I'm not a therapist, which I'm 

399
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,080
very clear about, but it does 
creep into that territory 

400
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,000
sometimes. 
And we've, I mean, she sees a 

401
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,120
therapist, but we were talking 
about it and she was taking a 

402
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:13,560
trip by herself and she said, 
I'm trying to get over the 

403
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,520
mindset of like, everyone's 
looking at me by myself. 

404
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,080
I'm a loser. 
And I'm like, first of all, 

405
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,000
they're looking at you thinking 
first of all, they're not 

406
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,120
looking at you. 
And 2nd, if anything, it's like,

407
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:23,440
good for her. 
She's traveling by herself. 

408
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,360
But so I said to her what I just
said in the nicest way, nobody 

409
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,640
cares about you with love. 
You know what I mean? 

410
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,800
And it was funny. 
I was, I was repeating this 

411
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,560
story to a friend of mine at 
lunch. 

412
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,440
And I said that I had said, 
nobody cares about you. 

413
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,480
And at that very moment, the 
waitress came over and she goes,

414
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,120
she thought I was being mean to 
my friend because I go, nobody 

415
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:43,800
cares about she goes, no, people
care. 

416
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,560
But I'm like, I know, it was so 
funny. 

417
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,960
The worst time to overhear? 
It was so I'm like, I'm not a 

418
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,320
jerk. 
I'm a very nice person. 

419
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,360
It's really funny. 
Oh my goodness. 

420
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,000
Look, I think it's a really good
point to under score here that 

421
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,880
people have other things going 
on. 

422
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800
We are all managing a lot times 
are really stressful. 

423
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,000
We have more on our plate than 
perhaps we ever have. 

424
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,640
There's a lot of distraction in 
our culture and busyness is 

425
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,640
celebrated nowadays. 
And so I think it's important to

426
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,880
remember, try to not take it 
personally because there's a lot

427
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,720
of other viable valid excuses 
for why they're not responding. 

428
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,120
And what's most important here 
is to recognize your own 

429
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:38,920
personal desire to communicate. 
And for clarity, that's the data

430
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,560
that your nervous system, your 
body, your brain is all telling 

431
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,120
you in that moment. 
So if you want to communicate 

432
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:50,280
what your system is telling you 
that you do, then communicate. 

433
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,280
Try to do so from a space of, 
again, positive assumption, not 

434
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,440
assuming something is wrong, but
you can check in and say similar

435
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,680
to what you mentioned, Erica, 
you know, usually I hear from 

436
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,560
you by now and I haven't 
exactly. 

437
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,960
How's your day been? 
Right. 

438
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,000
And if you're afraid to ask for 
clarification like that, you can

439
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,520
always go through the worst case
scenario in your head and the 

440
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,400
outcome is never as bad as that.
Okay, worst case, you check in 

441
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,880
and you never hear from them 
again. 

442
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,800
I guess you're ghosted, In which
case that tells you way more 

443
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,600
about the other person than it 
does you. 

444
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,440
It tells you that the other 
person is a is, is a coward and 

445
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,680
can't communicate when they're 
not interested. 

446
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,040
That's not someone you want to 
be with. 

447
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,480
Or they could come back and be 
like, how dare you double text 

448
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,480
me? 
That's not somebody you want to 

449
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,360
be with. 
And so it's like you always kind

450
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:42,560
of get what you want from 
communicating, even if it's not 

451
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,920
what you actually want because 
you get information. 

452
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,760
And in the early stages of 
dating, we're collecting 

453
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,920
information and then we're using
that information decide if to 

454
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,520
decide if we want to keep dating
them. 

455
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,360
Very well said. 
I love the whole data gathering 

456
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,960
approach to early stages. 
The former. 

457
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,120
Economist, though, you know 
comes. 

458
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:01,760
With. 
I was wondering if that factored

459
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,600
in here. 
I like data for you. 

460
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,120
I mean, I think yeah, I really 
like, I've always been 

461
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,360
analytical and I like data and 
and look, in dating, nothing is 

462
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,480
a science, right? 
But but I do think of it like 

463
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,000
data collection because 
sometimes when we get too far 

464
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,160
ahead of ourselves, we forget 
that we're still learning about 

465
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,840
this person. 
We think it's a foregone 

466
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,600
conclusion. 
And sometimes people think the 

467
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,680
other person has answers that we
don't like. 

468
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,200
Why can't they just tell me 
they're ready to be? 

469
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,960
They don't know they want to be 
with you yet either. 

470
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,680
And so everyone has to take an 
active role. 

471
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,520
That speaks to a common theme in
some of your responses that I'm 

472
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,200
picking up that I want to name, 
which is really important for 

473
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,280
anxious attachers to hear. 
And that is to remember that you

474
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,720
have a sense of agency, correct?
You are not at the mercy of of 

475
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960
whether or not someone wants to 
keep seeing you. 

476
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,200
You get to determine for 
yourself the level of alignment 

477
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,280
present, if you feel the kind of
safety that as an anxious 

478
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,840
attacher or disorganized 
attacher leaning anxious, you 

479
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:10,280
absolutely must have in order to
feel secure in your connection 

480
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,120
or to have enough security to 
pursue something further. 

481
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,400
So remember that if you're 
watching or listening, you get 

482
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,200
to decide for yourself. 
You always have agency and that 

483
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,080
is the most empowering thing 
that you can remember when you 

484
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,360
are dating. 100% Can you tell me
more about disorganized 

485
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,080
attachment? 
I don't really know about that. 

486
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,360
Of course, yes. 
Disorganized attachment or 

487
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,600
fearful avoidant attachment or 
anxious avoidant attachment. 

488
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,120
They are. 
Yes. 

489
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:43,080
Depending on the attachment 
model, you might hear one or the

490
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,680
other used. 
I like the one word. 

491
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,440
Yeah, yeah. 
Labels for the style so anxious,

492
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,280
avoidant, disorganized, secure. 
So tell me more about 

493
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,520
disorganized. 
A disorganized attacher 

494
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,200
struggles with both anxious and 
avoidant tendencies. 

495
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,600
OK, it can be the most volatile 
and unpredictable of all of the 

496
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,720
attachment experiences. 
Because one minute you might be 

497
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,040
struggling with desiring 
closeness, not knowing where you

498
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,200
stand with someone, having a 
deep fear of them leaving, 

499
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,640
cheating. 
That's the anxious part. 

500
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,640
And then the next minute you 
might feel smothered by that 

501
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,320
person. 
You might feel like you need 

502
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,800
space. 
You might feel like I need to 

503
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,600
disengage. 
And so you bounce back and forth

504
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,440
between these extremes, 
sometimes minute to minute or 

505
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,840
hour to hour day-to-day. 
Question for you, So you're more

506
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,680
of an expert in attachment 
style. 

507
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,720
I get, obviously I work with a 
lot of people who come to me and

508
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,520
say I have an anxious attachment
style where I'm anxiously 

509
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,240
attached and I will sometimes 
push back. 

510
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,720
And I'd like your opinion on 
this because I know about 

511
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,880
attachment theory, obviously, 
but I do sometimes feel that 

512
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,400
people use the term as a crutch 
to explain why they're doing the

513
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,520
behavior they're doing rather 
than looking into the individual

514
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,600
situation to assess how they 
feel in that moment. 

515
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,840
So for example, you're coming to
me and saying, well, I behave 

516
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,560
this way because I'm anxiously 
attached. 

517
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,480
Well, maybe this person just 
clearly did something to make 

518
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,880
you feel anxious. 
And so I try to separate the 

519
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,080
title from the actual feeling. 
Is that something? 

520
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,000
Love it. 
OK. 

521
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,840
I wanted to hear your opinion on
that. 

522
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Definitely philosophically 
aligned with how I have always 

523
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,840
approached this work. 
Everything is context dependent.

524
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,280
Anxious attachment is a pattern 
that has developed over the 

525
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,920
course of several experiences 
for many folks. 

526
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600
This isn't true for everyone, 
but for many folks this pattern 

527
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,360
is also directly traceable to 
experiences from early 

528
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:56,000
development or childhood. 
So you have a lot of instability

529
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,000
in the environment growing up. 
Maybe there was a divorce, maybe

530
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,520
there was a lot of conflict. 
Maybe you just never had the 

531
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,560
opportunity to discuss feelings 
at home. 

532
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,360
Maybe when you were crying you 
were told go to your room until 

533
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,400
you're finished. 
There's a lot of different 

534
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,160
expressions of trauma and 
invalidation and instability, 

535
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,360
but for many folks, that is 
true. 

536
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,800
It comes in a lot of different 
flavors and forms and 

537
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,520
experiences, but it is a 
pattern. 

538
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,320
It is not just experienced in 
one relationship. 

539
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,240
Now, of course, every 
relationship we have either 

540
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,600
helps us grow more secure or 
more insecure. 

541
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,840
And it's important to remember 
that attachment styles are not 

542
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,120
fixed. 
It's always. 

543
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,320
What you just said exactly. 
I think sometimes labels make 

544
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600
things seem fixed, and I agree 
that this is dynamic. 

545
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,400
I consider myself secure now. 
Part of my whole approach to 

546
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,240
this work is that I used to 
struggle with anxious 

547
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,320
attachment. 
I know what it's like to be up 

548
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,320
at 3:00 AM Sure checking 
Instagram story. 

549
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,720
Right. 
Did they text me back? 

550
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,240
Did they look at my story? 
Did they fill in the blank? 

551
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,040
Exactly. 
Yes, the protest behavior, the 

552
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,840
baiting of posting online 
specifically so that person will

553
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,960
see it in the hopes that they'll
interact with it they're. 

554
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,560
Human, we all are. 
And so with that in mind, you 

555
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,560
know, I, I understand the 
struggles of my clients very 

556
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,520
intimately and can call them out
compassionately when they might 

557
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,080
be in that space because we know
where that goes. 

558
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,520
And again, to the point of 
agency, remembering you can't 

559
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,320
control what the other person 
does or doesn't do, but you can 

560
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,760
speak up for yourself if you're 
noticing a pattern of behavior 

561
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,160
from a specific person of 
inconsistency, feeling unsafe in

562
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,600
the connection, so not really 
knowing where you stand with 

563
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,880
them or knowing what they want. 
And you can always ask for 

564
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,440
clarity. 
And to your point, Erica, the 

565
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,640
data we gather by doing this is 
something many anxious attachers

566
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,200
robbed themselves of by not 
speaking up. 

567
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,960
Exactly. 
So it can be a self fulfilling 

568
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,680
prophecy here whereby 
withholding you might protect 

569
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,320
yourself, but you keep yourself 
confused. 

570
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,600
If you honor your need for 
clarity, then even if you don't 

571
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,040
like the response, which to be 
fair, you're going to experience

572
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,480
a reaction to, but learning to 
be with those emotional 

573
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,920
responses is essential for 
growing more secure. 

574
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,640
Your partner, no matter how 
secure they are, is going to 

575
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,400
trigger you. 
You're going to be disappointed 

576
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,280
by them. 
They are a human being. 

577
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,680
So. 
It it's always context dependent

578
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,880
to get back to your question, 
but this is usually a pattern 

579
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,880
over the course of. 
Multiplications very, very well,

580
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,280
said an example I got on Monday 
when someone submitted a 

581
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,840
question, she said. 
I've been dating someone for 

582
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,760
three months. 
I really want to bring up the 

583
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,640
define the relationship 
conversation, but I'm afraid 

584
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,080
this person will say they're not
ready. 

585
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,320
And I responded that you could 
live in the status quo and try 

586
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,160
to protect yourself and protect 
the other person and not get 

587
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,240
what you want, or you could 
bring it up. 

588
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,280
You may not get what you want or
you may get exactly what you 

589
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,240
want, but what you will get is 
information to decide how to 

590
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,880
move forward. 
And I said that three months is 

591
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,640
a very appropriate time to bring
that up. 

592
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,640
Absolutely, yes, there's the 
three month rule for a reason. 

593
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,560
That's generally. 
I don't have a rule. 

594
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,600
What is this 3 month rule? 
I like the. 

595
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,320
I like 3 months. 
I mean, that's kind of my 

596
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,640
threshold too when I give the 
advice, but. 

597
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,760
I'm not sure where this came 
from but or where I even heard 

598
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,120
it from, but it's just so 
prevalent in dating and in our 

599
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,040
society that I guess three 
months is enough time to gather 

600
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,720
enough data. 
It is. 

601
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,200
Too. 
Or maybe people can't wear a 

602
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,080
mask beyond that point. 
Right. 

603
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,520
I do think sometimes people, 
especially those with anxious 

604
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,240
attachment, do try to lock 
things down too early sometimes 

605
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,520
because it feels more stable. 
If you have a title, if you have

606
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,640
defined the relationship. 
And I advise against that 

607
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,720
because it's actually a false 
sense of stability if you 

608
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,760
haven't built a solid foundation
yet. 

609
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,880
Also, I say this ad nauseam, but
the behavior you're getting 

610
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,240
before you decide to be 
exclusive is the exact behavior 

611
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,960
you're getting after. 
And so if you want to lock 

612
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,000
something down because you think
now someone is going to be more 

613
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,040
responsive to you or a better 
partner, that's not true. 

614
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,480
And so don't lock something down
when I say lock it down, you 

615
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,920
know, exclusivity, partner, 
boyfriend, girl, whatever you 

616
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,360
want to call it until you know 
that that's the behavior you 

617
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,320
want. 
Very well said and one of my 

618
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,880
favorite quotes of all time when
it comes to relationships and 

619
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,280
dating is from Doctor John Van 
EPP who wrote How to Avoid 

620
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,160
Falling in Love with a Jerk and 
he writes. 

621
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,600
Great title but really 
substantive book in which he 

622
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,080
says your experiences dating 
with someone is as good as it 

623
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,560
gets in a marriage with that 
person. 100% if anything it'll 

624
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,000
go down. 
Not change it, right? 

625
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,880
Yes, yeah, exactly. 
And following that, he says the 

626
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,840
good usually gets worse and the 
worst stays the same. 

627
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:28,640
Correct. 
Yeah. 

628
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,680
It's like, it's like if you're 
at a job, do you usually get 

629
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,680
promoted because you've been 
doing the job of the promotion 

630
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,760
level and then the title just 
goes with it? 

631
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,880
Yes. 
It's not like, oh, I've been 

632
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,040
doing really well for a week, so
they just promoted me to 

633
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,280
president and now I do the. 
No, that's not how it works. 

634
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,000
Absolutely. 
Great point. 

635
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,320
I want to circle back to the 
defining the relationship moment

636
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,600
just because that is something 
that is top of mind for many 

637
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,560
anxious attachers. 
Absolutely. 

638
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,680
I have a recommendation for 
folks, which is always to 

639
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920
approach this by asking for what
you want by declaring what you 

640
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:06,920
desire. 
Agree. 

641
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,960
OK, I wanted to make sure you're
in alignment with that. 

642
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,360
My approach is always to just 
say, hey, I've really been 

643
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,159
enjoying getting to know you. 
I've loved our dates. 

644
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,719
So you always want to talk about
what it is that specifically you

645
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,679
like about the person and the 
connection. 

646
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,440
Try not to be super general or 
nebulous, just because those 

647
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,760
kinds of compliments can feel 
canned, I suppose. 

648
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,280
And then say what it is that you
want. 

649
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,800
I'm feeling like I'm ready to 
take our connection to the next 

650
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,880
level. 
How are you feeling about that 

651
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,639
I? 
Fully agree with everything you 

652
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,800
just said. 
OK, wonderful. 

653
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,960
I love the idea of the 
open-ended question too and 

654
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,239
allowing the other person to 
speak. 

655
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,239
Don't ask a leading question 
like Are you ready to be in a 

656
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,920
relationship with me? 
Which feels very pressuring, but

657
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,920
say how do you feel about that? 
And just see what they say. 

658
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,400
Don't lead them to a certain 
response that you desire. 

659
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,360
No notes. 
I totally agree. 

660
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,440
I get a question all the time. 
How do I ask what are we? 

661
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,280
And my answer is exactly what 
you just said. 

662
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,640
No one gets to define what we 
are. 

663
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,400
You define what you No one can 
determine for you what we are, 

664
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:19,960
Right. 
So I agree. 

665
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,040
You go in saying exactly what 
you want. 

666
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,520
I'm at a point whatever you just
said. 

667
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,600
Yeah, same thing. 
How do you feel about that? 

668
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:30,160
What are we, my goodness? 
Well it's like, why are you 

669
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,000
ceding all of the decision 
making to the other person? 

670
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,760
That point right there, yes, 
Again, back to the point of 

671
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,520
agency, asking for what you 
desire is one of the strongest 

672
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,320
things that you can do to try to
get what it is that you desire. 

673
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,800
By naming it specifically, it 
doesn't guarantee that the other

674
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,800
person is going to acquiesce or 
give it to you. 

675
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,080
But whether it's saying, you 
know, I would like to check in 

676
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,880
throughout the day, how does 
that sound to you? 

677
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,000
How would that work for you? 
How can we make that happen in a

678
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,880
way that works for both of us? 
You know, trying to be inclusive

679
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,800
and collaborative I think is 
something that many people 

680
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,600
overlook. 
And when you know what you want,

681
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,200
which might be half the battle 
for folks, then the other half 

682
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,240
is declaring it. 
Not framing it as a question, 

683
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,520
but saying what you are ready 
for or what would help you to 

684
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,320
feel more connected, more 
appreciated, more understood, 

685
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,200
more loved and cared for. 
Right. 

686
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,280
And it's always best to know if 
you're not going to get that 

687
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,200
versus, again, sitting in the 
status quo not getting what you 

688
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,720
want because you're afraid to 
ask for it. 

689
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,440
Data, data, data information. 
Exactly. 

690
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,360
Don't rob yourself of receiving 
that by not speaking. 

691
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Yep, we're in alignment. 
Love it. 

692
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,480
I figured we would be good. 
That's why I wanted to have you 

693
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,760
on the show. 
Thanks. 

694
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,760
Of course. 
OK, so for anxious attachers, 

695
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,840
getting into a long term 
relationship, the first secure 

696
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,280
relationship or stable 
experience after the string of 

697
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,520
insecure, unstable, uncertain 
ones can also be really 

698
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,840
challenging. 
And I have a lot of experience 

699
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,320
working with clients who have a 
lot of doubt who might question,

700
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,200
I don't know, I don't feel that 
chemistry that's bar. 

701
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:25,200
And I just wrote, I have a book 
coming out next year and I wrote

702
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,160
a whole section on this. 
Tell us, distill it down. 

703
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,080
It's, I think it comes under the
umbrella umbrella of self 

704
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,000
sabotage because if you're not 
used to this feeling of safety, 

705
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,560
it might feel boring and you 
might want to escape because 

706
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,640
you're like, well, this person 
can't be it because I don't feel

707
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,800
excited all the time. 
That excitement might have been 

708
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,920
the roller coaster you were on 
because you never knew what you 

709
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,920
were getting from this other 
person you were dating. 

710
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,320
Safety doesn't feel exciting 
sometimes, but that doesn't make

711
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,280
it worse. 
It makes it better because at 

712
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,080
least it's predictable. 
You know what you're going to 

713
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,080
get. 
But I don't think people mean to

714
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,040
self sabotage, you know? 
But sometimes when something is 

715
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,160
unfamiliar, it feels wrong. 
But it it could be very right. 

716
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,880
We just have to accept it. 
Reacquainting your nervous 

717
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,040
system and reorienting it 
towards what safety actually 

718
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:29,560
feels like and redefining that 
as good versus bad is important.

719
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:33,840
And also, as I tell people all 
the time, it feels like 

720
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,920
something is missing because it 
is. 

721
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,560
You don't have the confusion. 
You don't have. 

722
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:40,840
I love. 
Having you said that. 

723
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,960
Thank you. 
You don't have the cortisol, you

724
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,560
don't have the adrenaline, you 
don't have the experience of not

725
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,280
knowing where you stand, which 
is unusual. 

726
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,120
And many anxious attachers like 
to be in the role of the 

727
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,920
pursuer, the fixer, the chaser. 
And when you step out of that, 

728
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,840
it feels deeply uncomfortable 
and very unusual, right? 

729
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,000
But that is because of what you 
named, which is that it is just 

730
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,960
unfamiliar to your nervous 
system. 

731
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,320
Right. 
And it feels more comfortable 

732
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,960
sometimes, you know, a lot of 
anxious attachers are waiting 

733
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,520
for the other shoe to drop at 
all times of every day, which is

734
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,640
exhausting. 
And sometimes they'll get out of

735
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,240
a situation because it's more 
comfortable to get a certain no,

736
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,960
even if it's self-imposed, than 
an uncertain maybe or 

737
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,400
relationship. 
Learning to live in the 

738
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,440
uncertainty. 
That was gonna be my really 

739
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:38,600
hard. 
Exactly. 

740
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,440
It is very hard, but it's a 
worthwhile lesson. 

741
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,480
Yes, I mean holistically in your
life too, because. 

742
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,840
Yeah. 
Yeah, I don't even just mean in 

743
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:46,640
dating. 
Sure. 

744
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,920
Yeah, yeah. 
When you're interviewing for a 

745
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,040
job, you don't know who the 
other candidates are. 

746
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:54,920
When you're dating someone, you 
don't know who else they're 

747
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,360
dating and how those experiences
are going. 

748
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,040
You don't know anything, and 
it's best to again, bring that 

749
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,760
focus back to yourself. 
Remember what you bring to the 

750
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,880
table, exactly what the folks 
watching and listening, 

751
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,760
qualities of yourself that you 
know other people appreciate, 

752
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,720
that your friends tell you. 
You know that you're loyal, or 

753
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,960
you're commutative or you're 
funny or whatever it might be. 

754
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:19,760
Right. 
And if stay? 

755
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,800
Rooted in that. 
And if someone doesn't see that 

756
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,480
in you in the end, then you 
shouldn't be with that person. 

757
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,560
You know? 
Someone once said this to me and

758
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,040
I loved it. 
Your essence is the thing that 

759
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,280
you love the most about yourself
that someone else will love too.

760
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,120
If someone doesn't love your 
essence, screw them. 

761
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,400
They're not your partner. 
If someone doesn't love your 

762
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,080
essence, they're not your. 
Yeah, if they don't love the 

763
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,120
things that you love about 
yourself, like if you tell corny

764
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,200
jokes, I don't want you to be 
with someone who rolls their 

765
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,040
eyes at your corny jokes. 
I want you to be with someone 

766
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,120
who finds those corny jokes that
you love endearing. 

767
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,800
I don't want you to be with 
someone apologetically. 

768
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,600
It just keeps getting better and
better. 

769
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,400
Keep going. 
Can I? 

770
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Stop now. 
I'm done. 

771
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,040
I'm done. 
My goodness, I want your take on

772
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,920
this. 
I've heard that consideration is

773
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,520
the highest form of love. 
What do you think about that? 

774
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,160
Like consideration for another 
person. 

775
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,120
Like consideration similar to 
what you were just saying, 

776
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,040
considering someone's essence, 
learning someone over time. 

777
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:31,640
Like, for instance, if you know 
that your partner hits snooze 

778
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,680
and you know that they're going 
to miss an appointment and you 

779
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,400
don't want them to be 
uncaffeinated when they go to 

780
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,640
this appointment, so you make 
them their coffee, Things like 

781
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,280
that. 
I think consideration is 

782
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,200
extremely important. 
Noticing things, all of that, 

783
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,200
yeah, all really important. 
On the flip side, I will say 

784
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,360
nobody is perfect. 
And so I think sometimes we have

785
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,920
to remember that everyone has, I
call them perceived flaws. 

786
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,080
Everyone has a set of perceived 
flaws. 

787
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,080
They're not actual flaws, 
they're not red flags. 

788
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,840
But a perceived flaw could be 
the corny jokes, it could be 

789
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,280
that you hit snooze, It could be
any of the examples we just 

790
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,800
said, right, whatever, There's 
that's nothing wrong. 

791
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,440
It's just a personality thing, 
right? 

792
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,520
Anyone you end up with is going 
to have some set of these, and 

793
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,200
you just basically have to 
decide which ones you can live 

794
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,000
with and which you can't because
you're not going to change 

795
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,160
someone, nor should you. 
You're not going to change 

796
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,480
someone, nor should you 
perceived flaws. 

797
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,760
Yeah. 
Of course. 

798
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Yeah, So, you know, many people 
call it the ick. 

799
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,200
You know, I got the ick because 
of this person did this thing. 

800
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,520
OK, you may not like that. 
You may not like how they laugh.

801
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,320
Someone else might love it. 
It's not a flaw. 

802
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,120
It's a perceived flaw. 
Can you live with it? 

803
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,080
Great. 
If it's too much and you can't, 

804
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,600
that's fine. 
It's just, it's not that they're

805
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,640
bad, it's just not for you. 
At a certain point we have to 

806
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,600
decide which ones we can live 
with and which we can't. 

807
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,160
But yes, I don't know how I got 
on that. 

808
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,520
But yes, consideration is an 
important part of love, of 

809
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,040
course. 
I love this because I just did a

810
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,440
bonus episode on the show, a 
kind of 15 minute rant about 

811
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,760
being cringe in dating and the 
ick in dating, and how being 

812
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,560
real and raw and vulnerable can 
be really scary. 

813
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,800
But in order to have a real 
connection, the kind of depth 

814
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,160
that many anxious attachers 
desire but don't bring to the 

815
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,720
table, usually, you've got to be
real yourself. 

816
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,440
And sometimes that might feel 
very uncomfortable. 

817
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,160
You might feel very cringy 
double texting or declaring what

818
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,000
you desire like we talked about,
but unless you're willing to put

819
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,920
it out there, you're probably 
not going to just have it land 

820
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,960
in your lap. 
Yeah, I agree with that. 

821
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,040
And I just thought of one other 
thing on the consideration 

822
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,240
topic. 
You have to be doing considerate

823
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:55,520
things because you want to be 
doing them, not because you want

824
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,040
credit. 
Huge pet peeve when someone does

825
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,240
something nice and then they 
say, well, I did that. 

826
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Yeah, we noticed. 
And now you negated it by 

827
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,160
telling me you did it. 
I got it. 

828
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,440
We all got it, you know? 
And it's like you should be 

829
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,360
doing it because you want to do 
it, not because you want the 

830
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,040
other person to notice or 
because you want a point in your

831
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,600
favor. 
I know many anxious attachers 

832
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,320
need to hear that because they 
are accustomed to over 

833
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,120
functioning in their 
relationships to try to earn 

834
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:33,240
that love and affection and 
belonging, and yet when they do 

835
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:37,880
this, it creates oftentimes an 
imbalance in the dynamic. 

836
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,640
It does, it does. 
So I have a lot of people who I 

837
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,840
use the same word over function 
and it's because they are so 

838
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,360
anxious that it's not going to 
get done so I better do it or 

839
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,160
else it's not going to get done.
I can relate in my personal life

840
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,920
in that I'm a planner with most 
of my friends right? 

841
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,720
And sometimes I feel frustrated 
because certain friends aren't 

842
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,560
as our friendship isn't as 
equal. 

843
00:44:58,560 --> 00:44:59,960
I feel like I'm the one driving 
it. 

844
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,280
And so sometimes instead of 
taking charge like I would 

845
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,440
normally do, I say here's when 
I'm available, here's what time 

846
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,280
I'm free. 
Can you plan something for us? 

847
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,440
I'm having a really busy week. 
If they don't, I've learned the 

848
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,800
information I need and it's OK 
if we don't see each other that 

849
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,880
week. 
And with anxious attachers, it's

850
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,480
important to become comfortable 
seeing what people are capable 

851
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,520
of without you jumping in and 
doing it for them first. 

852
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,720
I get it. 
I'm type A, you know. 

853
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,720
Same, same. 
And many anxious attachers are 

854
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,760
because of, you know, the 
experiences that they've been 

855
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,760
through that have informed that 
yeah, sure, yeah. 

856
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,720
And it's OK to be an organized 
person. 

857
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,360
It's OK to be a planner. 
And often times what I find, at 

858
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,800
least in relationships, is one 
person is usually better at 

859
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,560
planning than the other. 
And identifying and respecting 

860
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,920
that is very important. 
But what you communicated that 

861
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,640
is very subtle that I want to 
identify for folks watching and 

862
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,440
listening is you didn't just 
stay silent in your friendship, 

863
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,440
you communicated your 
availability and you requested 

864
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,240
for them to plan something. 
There's a saying that 

865
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:19,440
uncommunicated expectations turn
into real resentments. 

866
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,640
I see you smiling. 
Yes, you're familiar with this. 

867
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,080
It's true. 
It's a great statement because 

868
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,000
it's the truth. 
Absolutely, yes. 

869
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,480
And of course, you're going to 
grow resentful when you're 

870
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,120
holding it all in. 
But the other person doesn't 

871
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,440
know what you want inherently. 
They can't read your mind. 

872
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,280
So what you did is you establish
the expectation. 

873
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,360
You gave them the time that you 
were available. 

874
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,320
And regardless of whether it 
worked, you honored yourself. 

875
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,480
Back to the agency component 
here for folks to hear. 

876
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,920
You can always let someone know.
And I just had this conversation

877
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,440
with a client of mine the other 
day who's been on four dates 

878
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,080
with someone and is hoping that 
the other person might plan 

879
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,640
something instead. 
And I told him, great, that's 

880
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,040
not a problem, but communicate 
that. 

881
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,280
Make that expectation. 
I would love for you to plan our

882
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,920
next date simple and if if that 
other person says absolutely 

883
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,960
not, well then stop dating them.
Yeah, 'cause you can't put in 

884
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,640
all the effort, you can't make 
all the reservations or all the 

885
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,600
plans. 
No, no. 

886
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,680
And part of the data gathering, 
too, is the fun, the excitement 

887
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,680
of seeing like, where are they 
going to? 

888
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,560
What did they come up with? 
Exactly. 

889
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:31,840
Yeah, that's the fun in this, 
too. 

890
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,640
And I don't want that to get 
lost in translation for folks 

891
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,320
either. 
Like dating can be challenging, 

892
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,960
and it comes with a whole slew 
of emotional experiences, some 

893
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,480
of which are not very pleasant, 
but it can also be really fun. 

894
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,200
Yeah. 
And it should be fun. 

895
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,840
I know it feels functional 
sometimes, but the word fun is 

896
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,520
in functional. 
I want it to be fun because if 

897
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,160
you're not having fun in the 
early, like ultimately whoever 

898
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,000
you decide to date, you should 
be having fun. 

899
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,800
So I don't want the dating 
process to be devoid of fun. 

900
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,120
Like I always thought it was 
funny on the Bachelor. 

901
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,080
I remember it was pilot Pete who
it was not a good season anyway,

902
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,080
it doesn't matter. 
He was like, I'm not here to 

903
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,920
have fun. 
I'm here to meet my wife. 

904
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,800
And I thought process of meeting
your wife should be fun. 

905
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,400
And also, it's the Bachelor. 
Like you're in a helicopter in 

906
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,520
Fiji. 
Like, is that OK? 

907
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:25,680
Is that not fun? 
They're not. 

908
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Usually exclusive anyway. 
Yeah, I I think this hits at 

909
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,680
something that I want to name 
for people to which is embody 

910
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,400
your values in values based 
dating. 

911
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,200
It's not about checking off a 
list of does this person value 

912
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,080
honesty and integrity and 
communication and fun. 

913
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,160
It's about you bringing that to 
the table and seeing how they 

914
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,560
respond to it. 
So if in planning yourself a fun

915
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,640
date for the two of you, that 
person doesn't enjoy it, they 

916
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,520
don't respond well to it, that 
is important for you to 

917
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,680
understand. 
And this will naturally drive 

918
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,680
some people away, which is 
uncomfortable, but it is OK. 

919
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,240
It is. 
Erica, this has been a fabulous,

920
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,080
wonderful conversation. 
There's so many Nuggets of 

921
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,840
wisdom from today that I know 
people will be circling back to 

922
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,680
and listening to again. 
How can people find you and any 

923
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,480
resources you want to share 
before we depart today? 

924
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,520
You can find me anywhere. 
A little nudge, my website, 

925
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,400
Instagram, a little nut just 
dating coach Erica. 

926
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,360
I'm pretty easy to find anyone 
who's considering working with 

927
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,440
me. 
I always offer a free 20 minute 

928
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,400
consultation to see if we're the
right fit. 

929
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,200
So you're more than welcome to 
do that. 

930
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,080
You can find that link anywhere 
online. 

931
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,880
But I think it's clear I love my
job, I love working with people 

932
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,640
and I see success in so many 
different forms. 

933
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,920
Success is not, to me being in a
relationship. 

934
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,640
Success is being happy in 
whatever form that comes in. 

935
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,680
And if if you learning how to 
end something after three dates 

936
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,560
because they're not the right 
one for you, that is equally 

937
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,680
successful. 
And so, yeah, I'll end with 

938
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,880
that. 
That's real, that's progress, 

939
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,680
and that is growth. 
That means growing more secure 

940
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:19,200
as well in yourself and in 
whatever stage you might be in 

941
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,040
on your relationship journey. 
Erica, thank you so much for 

942
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,360
taking the time. 
This was really fun. 

943
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,280
It was, and for those watching 
and listening, I'll see you next

944
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:29,520
time.