1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,320 Hello everyone, and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,240 dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style. 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,120 I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach, and 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,480 author Chris Ratcliffe. I've helped thousands of people 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,160 across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,520 through my books, workshops, digital downloads, and coaching 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,240 program. I'm excited to carry on that 8 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:27,440 mission here in the podcast, sharing tools and techniques, 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,000 principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 growing more secure. Welcome back, everyone. 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,080 It's been a bit since we've been live here on the show, and I 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,560 cannot tell you how excited I am to share today's episode with 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,560 you. We have a very special guest, 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,680 and her name is Jessica Baum. Jessica Baum is a licensed 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,840 therapist and the author of Anxiously Attached. 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,600 As founder of the Relationship Institute of Palm Beach and the 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,880 Conscious Relationship Group, she supports individuals and 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,920 couples to form healthy, long term relationships with online 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,880 coaching and transformational courses worldwide. 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,760 Born and raised in Manhattan, she now lives in West Palm 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,200 Beach, FL. Her new book, Safe, an 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,160 Attachment informed Guide to building more secure 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,760 relationships, is out October 28th, 2025. 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,680 Jessica, welcome on the show. Thanks so much for being here. 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,320 Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for this 26 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:35,200 conversation. Yay, me too. 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,120 I have to say I know I mentioned this to you before we hopped on 28 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,440 today and and hit record. I have read the book. 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,960 I encourage everyone listening to this and watching this 30 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,680 episode to buy it. It is so squarely in the 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,920 wheelhouse of what I talk about on the show, what I espouse in 32 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,160 every aspect of my work, all of my downloads, my books, my 33 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,040 coaching program. So I have really been looking 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,680 forward to diving in deep today. And that just means so much to 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,760 me when Someone Like You takes the time to read the material 36 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,039 and really values it and aligns with it. 37 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:12,880 So I appreciate that. You are more than welcome. 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,280 Like I mentioned to you previously, I've been on the 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,400 other side here as the author promoting something. 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,560 It's always so awkward when they haven't read the book and you 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,960 can tell and they're kind of flipping through the pages and 42 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,040 trying to come up with things on the spot, you know? 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,480 So I want to make sure that you feel safe and seen and 44 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,440 understood. And I loved the book and I can't 45 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,640 wait for people to read it and really digest it. 46 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,360 Why don't we start with just a very basic question here for 47 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,280 folks. All of the folks watching and 48 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,840 listening are anxiously attached or disorganized, leaning 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,120 anxious. So let's just start by defining 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,080 the word safe for safety. How would you define that for 51 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,760 folks watching and listening? Everybody wants to feel safe, 52 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,240 right? Like that's the new thing. 53 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,840 But in the book, I use a lot of Steven Porges work around the 54 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,360 nervous system and I'm going to really simplify this right now, 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,000 but we have 3 branches. We have a dorsal, which is a 56 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,800 shutdown, which sometimes you see avoiding people kind of go 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,520 into dorsal or you just see people shut down or close up or 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,400 distance. And we have a, you know, a 59 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,160 sympathetic, which is more of an activated state. 60 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,160 And then we have something called ventral. 61 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,000 And a ventral state is where we're in our social engagement 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,400 system. And we're actually signaling 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,080 safety towards each other. You know, Chris, you and I are 64 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,720 through eye contact, through tone, we're signaling, hey, it's 65 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,320 safe to have conversation. Hey, it's safe to come closer. 66 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,440 And so our nervous system is fluctuating through these states 67 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,160 all day long. We're not ever statically in 68 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,920 these states, but in our deep romantic relationships, they can 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,160 activate certain things within us that can shift us into dorsal 70 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,320 or into sympathetic and out of a state of safety. 71 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,840 So a lot of people will deeply learn like what that is and also 72 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,400 how someone else's state of safety, a state of being in 73 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,520 ventral more again, it's not perfect, but they hold a ventral 74 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,640 state can hold our state of dysregulation and how healing 75 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,640 happens when those two things come together. 76 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,920 So it's really a sense of safety that starts to like birth our 77 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,080 own healing process. So we need that sense of safety 78 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,480 in order to heal attachment wounds. 79 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,800 Amen to that. I always say it to folks, if you 80 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,280 were healed and unsafe relationships, then you heal 81 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,040 through safe relationships and being seen and having someone 82 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:45,120 look you in the eye and just hold the space for you to listen 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,160 truly without interrupting, without preparing what they're 84 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,720 going to say, really seeing you and seeing the reactions in your 85 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,360 body and how you. Are I also remind myself all the 86 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,400 time? Like I say to myself, your 87 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,680 presence is powerful. As a coach, I have to remind 88 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,480 myself all the time, I'm not always going to be able to help 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,360 someone get to where they want to go. 90 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,440 They have to help themselves and my presence is powerful enough 91 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,600 if I can hold the space for them. 92 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,320 If I can greet them with a state of regulation and help them to 93 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,480 Co regulate by identifying their emotions and figuring out where 94 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,640 they are in their body and how to be with that, that is 95 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,120 powerful enough I don't have to take it on or take it away. 96 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,720 Which for many years, you know, as a anxiously attached person 97 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,800 myself and former codependent, I would do right. 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,800 And I think a lot of people can relate to that too, 100%. 99 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,760 I mean, safety is the treatment. And as people who provide that 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,080 for others, it's not that we have to have a perfect sense of 101 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,080 safety, but what when we can show up in that in that state 102 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,760 and hold that in, beautiful things happen. 103 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,560 And I explain the science of that. 104 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,960 Like that's just not woo woo. Like there's a science that you 105 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,280 know, when 2 nervous systems come together and that state is 106 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,480 being able to hold space, That's essentially what it is. 107 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,880 And I I dive deep into that so that people can really 108 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,400 understand that concept. Yes, you certainly do. 109 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,400 And I love the reference to Porges is a Poly vagal theory 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,240 there that's obviously critical for people to understand the 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,920 different branches of their nervous system and why they're 112 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,120 feeling the reactions that they are. 113 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,120 Many folks I think have a basic understanding. 114 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,800 They might say I'm feeling triggered or I didn't like that 115 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,440 or I'm not comfortable with that, but this really gives a 116 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:42,840 lot more complexity for folks to understand where they are in 117 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:46,600 that kind of scale, if you will. For those who are listening, I'm 118 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:50,640 kind of referencing up and down motions here, almost like a 119 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,600 scale, so we can understand where we are on that scale at 120 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,680 any given time and to recognize that it isn't a static or a 121 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,400 fixed state. One of the things that you talk 122 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,000 about in the book is your own personal journey with healing 123 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,440 your patterns and and your own traumas and your own anxious 124 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,560 attachment and how your own fears have come up in a variety 125 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,320 of different relationships. And I thought it was so powerful 126 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,160 to hear you talk about the relationship with your mom and 127 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,080 your grandma, and also a previous relationship where a 128 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,720 lot of childhood stuff ended up coming out, a lot of fears of 129 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,440 abandonment. And I know that folks watching 130 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,440 and listening can relate to that because that's something all 131 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,800 anxious attachers struggle with, is that fear of abandonment and 132 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,720 previous experiences creeping back up into their minds when 133 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,560 they might be in a romantic partnership. 134 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,440 What do you have to say to those watching and listening who are 135 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,960 more anxiously attached and who have experienced similar kinds 136 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,560 of traumas that have led to them feeling unsafe or fearing 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,120 abandonment in their adult relationships? 138 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,520 Yeah. I mean, this might be hard to 139 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,000 hear if you're listening, but there's a line in the book that 140 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,680 says if you don't heal your abandonment wound, you will 141 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,800 recreate it. And I think there's a lot of 142 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,040 truth to that. And what I would say is that if 143 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,680 you are conscious. So I think of avoid and people 144 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,440 are unconscious more of it, but if you're anxious, you're more 145 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,760 conscious of your abandonment wound. 146 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,200 The way to heal it would be to go back to the original wound 147 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,000 and to start to embody or get in touch with the embodied 148 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,360 experience of, of feeling abandoned in the 1st place by 149 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,880 probably a primary caregiver and having that deeply held. 150 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Because if not, we're consciously trying to keep 151 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,280 people close to avoid that feeling within. 152 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,600 And I know, like, I mean, I'm so guilty of it, right? 153 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,600 And I wrote the book anxiously attached, but it wasn't until I 154 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:01,080 was really held deeply in my wound that the wound is now 155 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,960 accompanied with the feeling of being held. 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,160 So it's not that I'm alone anymore. 157 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,520 It's that when I think of the times that I was alone, I have 158 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,000 had so much support around re experiencing them and being held 159 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,760 in them that those memories and implicit memories are no longer 160 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,200 carrying the alumnus feeling that I originally had. 161 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,440 I think that's such a great point here is that the pain 162 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,360 doesn't necessarily go away. I think in a lot of ways we 163 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,920 learn to hold it differently and also to rely on others to help 164 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,720 us hold it so that we don't feel alone in the pain. 165 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,240 This is something I remind my clients of who are parents all 166 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,760 the time. You don't need to take away the 167 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,360 pain of your child. You cannot do that. 168 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,000 They just need to know that they're not alone in it. 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,400 And similarly, when that inner child within you who wasn't 170 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,040 heard or seen or who many of us may have kind of pushed down and 171 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,600 repressed and suppressed in various ways, that kind of 172 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,000 expression and Co regulation with others helps us to see, 173 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,120 wow, I can talk about this. I don't have to go through this 174 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,600 on my own. And to me, in a lot of ways, 175 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,160 that's what healing your inner child and safety are all about. 176 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,280 And you do talk about the inner child healing a lot in the book 177 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,680 as well. Yeah. 178 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,680 And I think it's good for your audience specifically if you're 179 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,640 listening. Healing anxious attachment 180 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,760 cannot be done alone. So if you are wounded in 181 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,600 relationship, like you said, Chris, you need to be healed, 182 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,880 healed in relationship. But also, and I talked about 183 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,280 this in the book, the younger the wounding, the more adult ank 184 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,360 luring you need. So for people who struggle with 185 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,440 early abandonment wounds, and you know that you're struggling 186 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,080 if you're listening, if you're having extreme sensations in 187 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,760 your body, if your your gut and your heart are really kind of 188 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,640 activated, you know that there's a much younger part of you in 189 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,800 there that needs healing. And I don't want people wasting 190 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,000 their time thinking that that they can do this inner child 191 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,760 work all on their own. The truth is part of moving the 192 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,360 attachment trauma is a re experiencing the original womb 193 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,000 wound in the presence of someone who can give you what you didn't 194 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,520 get at the time of the wound. So if you were abandoned, you 195 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,520 need to be met. So you need to regress and you 196 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,000 need to meet these parts with another nervous system and 197 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,040 recognize the original wound and also allow someone to come in 198 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,480 and support you. That is the only way to move the 199 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,200 wound. So all these self help books 200 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,560 that are like heal yourself and you can do this on your own when 201 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,880 you really start to understand interpersonal neurobiology and 202 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,880 how we're wired and how trauma and attachment wounds are 203 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,160 stored. I would be setting you up for 204 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,880 failure if I said, yes, you can do this all on your own. 205 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,680 The truth is we really, really need people in order to start to 206 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:04,000 heal these deeper wounds. Connection is a biological 207 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,280 imperative. I think you may even mention 208 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,120 that almost verbatim 10 times. Yeah. 209 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,720 It's so important for people to hear that though, because 210 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,000 there's this insistence in our culture, which is hyper 211 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,880 individualized as it is, and our state of politics shows us this, 212 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,600 I think very clearly in the United States. 213 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:30,280 But that said, hyper individualization and the 214 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,680 obsession with needing to be independent and carry all of 215 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:41,320 this on your own can actually be more harmful than helpful. 216 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:47,200 I always remind people that it's about self and it's about other. 217 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,920 And in my own book, Needy No More, same name as the the 218 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,680 podcast and my coaching program, I talk about how many insecure 219 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:00,760 attachers, especially anxious attachers, actually prevent the 220 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,280 relationships that they might be in from growing more secure and 221 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,240 being safer because they themselves are not allowing 222 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,080 themselves to be seen. They're not opening up and 223 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,720 sharing what it is that they're feeling. 224 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,800 They shut down. Of course, we do this because 225 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,240 we're afraid of being too much, of being abandoned. 226 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,240 We have shame, wounds and feelings of inadequacy, which 227 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,880 are very common, but safety also requires us to be able to open 228 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,360 up into other people and see how they receive that. 229 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,200 If we don't do that, then we rob ourselves a lot of times of the 230 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,800 safety that we could be experiencing or the data we 231 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,240 could be gathering on the degree of safety that might be present 232 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,920 in a given connection. Because it's never going to be 233 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,120 100%. So I think that's also important 234 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,760 to name here as well. We need other people and we also 235 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:01,000 need to be brave and dig deep and have courage to open up into 236 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,920 connection because if we don't, then we also prevent ourselves 237 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,840 from experiencing that ferry safety. 238 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,600 I went through a period in my own work where being vulnerable 239 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,120 was really hard. And I am a therapist who's been 240 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,240 practicing for a really long time. 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,920 And if you're listening like there's a like, I want to say 242 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,520 ickiness, but it's really shame that can come up when we start 243 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,640 to depend on people. And there's this vulnerability 244 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,040 that also came up for me that was like, my God, like I really 245 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,360 have, I am that vulnerable and fragile. 246 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,160 Like I really need to depend on my anchors. 247 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,200 And that's really, really hard and moving into deep 248 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,200 vulnerability. And I think that's the portal. 249 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,680 Like if you're listening like that, actually that feeling of 250 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,480 like, this is really hard and I have to actually depend on 251 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,840 people and I feel like a burden. It's like, no, no, this is how 252 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,800 we build in our security. And this feeling that you're, 253 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,720 it's like part of the process until we internalize the right 254 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,240 people, right? So if you lean on safe people 255 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,000 and they show up consistently for you, your nervous system 256 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,400 starts to register. You might need them more until 257 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,240 you internalize them. The opposite of that is if you 258 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,520 turn to unavailable people and they don't show up for you, 259 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,800 you're just kind of re injuring yourself. 260 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,440 So, so one of the things I had to do was, you know, I loved my 261 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,000 partner very much, but there were lots of parts of him that 262 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,960 were unavailable. So I had to start to bring these 263 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,880 parts of me that were showing up to people who had the capacity 264 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,600 and the safety and their nervous system to hold my younger parts 265 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,840 so I can integrate and heal them. 266 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,880 So if you're listening, it's also about knowing who has the 267 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,960 capacity and who doesn't and not falling into like a trauma 268 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,000 bonded kind of situation where you're going to lean on people 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,120 who literally are repeating your trauma and don't have the 270 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,200 capacity to hold that kind of space for you. 271 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,680 The capacity and sometimes the willingness. 272 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,440 And that is a very powerful point to make here, I think. 273 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,120 Many of us do recreate emotionally distant dynamics, 274 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,280 often times unconsciously. Of course, we don't do it on 275 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,960 purpose. No one would ever, I think, 276 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,360 choose to consciously recreate their trauma. 277 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,200 We do it to try to resolve it without realizing that the 278 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,720 nervous system always seeks out what is familiar, and that's 279 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,520 because it knows how to be with it, even if it's painful or 280 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,280 uncomfortable. That unfamiliarity, even if it 281 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,920 might reach a more peaceful state, a calmer state, feels 282 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120 almost at times more triggering to the nervous system because of 283 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,160 the unfamiliarity. So I love what you're saying, 284 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,520 and I think it's really, really powerful for people to hear 285 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,600 you're going to repeat what you don't repair, and that is also 286 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,960 OK. We all do this. 287 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,360 Literally almost every single insecure attacher I've ever met. 288 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,240 Anxious avoidant otherwise, does this until we grow more 289 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,440 conscious of our patterns and then interrupt them. 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,840 And a lot of that does boil down to the people that we choose to 291 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,480 provide access to us. And there's a concept in my own 292 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,720 work where it's called emotional diversification, where you have 293 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,400 to diversify your sources of connection because if you're 294 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,839 going kind of all in on a romantic partnership, that's 295 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,760 very emotionally risky. And for many of us who are 296 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,040 repeating patterns of disconnection and trauma from 297 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,880 the past, that also means that we are showing our nervous 298 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,760 system that all of its fears are confirmed. 299 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,240 So you have to give yourself data that you gather from other 300 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,640 folks who can hold the space, who can listen to you and see 301 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,600 you and hear you and be there with you. 302 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,400 Even if they again can't take it away, they can just tell you, 303 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,080 look, I'm here for you. I want you to know I care. 304 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,200 How about we go to lunch tomorrow? 305 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Like, what can I do for you? You know, we need to hear that 306 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,320 because many of us having experienced abandonment, this is 307 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,160 our response to that in adulthood. 308 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,400 So the more that we can experience that kind of safety 309 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,720 in adulthood, the more it does write over that pain of the 310 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,800 past. Like you so beautifully mention 311 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,760 about anchoring, and I do want to talk about that. 312 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,040 I want to define that for folks. This is a big part of the book, 313 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,520 and I love the way that it's described just because of the 314 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,080 metaphor of the anchor. But talk to me. 315 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,760 Talk to us about what an anchor is and why they're important. 316 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,880 Yeah. I mean, I use the word anchor. 317 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,240 And it doesn't have to be a therapist or a coach. 318 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,920 And some therapists and coaches don't know how to hold space. 319 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,880 But this book very much also is a companion for you to bring to 320 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,720 a therapist or coach or friend who fits in the category of 321 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,120 they're committed to showing up. They will not have an agenda, 322 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,600 they will not fix you and they can hold deep space for you. 323 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,640 And I, I spell out, you know, we talked about the state of safety 324 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,400 or the ventral nervous system, But I also spell out like how to 325 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,520 do this with a friend because not everybody can afford 326 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,320 coaching or therapy and not, not every therapist and coach knows 327 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,960 how to do this. So hopefully it's, it's a, it's 328 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,560 a way for everyone to kind of have these resources. 329 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,000 And I, I think a big thing that I get in my practice and in the 330 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,000 world is I have no anchors. And so it's a little 331 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,160 intimidating to know like part of this work is finding your 332 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,320 anchors. And what I'll say is it only 333 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,360 takes one relationship to have the experience of holding the 334 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,400 space. And what I really spell out in 335 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,800 the book to change the trajectory of all your 336 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,200 relationships. Because what you're doing is 337 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,280 you're picking one person who has these capacities and maybe 338 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,560 you're having a Co agreement with them and you're Co 339 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,880 anchoring each other. And you're you're now letting 340 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,760 your nervous system have a different experience or you're 341 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,640 starting to recognize that this person shows up for me, hold 342 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,160 space for me, Co regulates with me. 343 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,680 And this is what I need in a partner too, right? 344 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,440 And often with anxiously attached people are scared parts 345 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,360 get like run at an avoidant person. 346 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,680 And they're like, I can't handle these scared parts because 347 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,400 they're scaring me, right? So a lot of what needs to happen 348 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,920 are these scared parts need to find an anchor and they still 349 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,880 need to be experienced. And I like what you said like a 350 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,520 few minutes ago, like the difference between your avoidant 351 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,520 partner sometimes showing up for you and an anchor showing up for 352 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,920 you is sometimes what you really want is the pain to go away. 353 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,000 But when you're really healing, it's not about taking her or his 354 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,160 pain away. It's about finding people who 355 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,480 can show up and help you hold the pain. 356 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,360 We need to start holding the experience rather than trying to 357 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:49,360 get rid of the experience because we, the more we can hold 358 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:53,160 it and share, like what we call a window of tolerance, the more 359 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,880 that we can build our own capacity to be with these 360 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,520 younger parts within ourselves and the less they take over in 361 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,440 that degree. It's a, it was an important 362 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,320 distinction for me too. My partner could make the pain 363 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,360 go away, but I, I really needed to learn how to be with the 364 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:10,800 pain. And so I needed people who were 365 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,640 going to sit in it with me. And that was so important. 366 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,280 And it was important to find those people. 367 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,000 And I've just been so fortunate to have such wonderful people 368 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000 show up in my life. And I'm, I'm hoping that if 369 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,920 you're listening, go through your Rolodex, there's got to be 370 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,880 one person in there that you're not even, you're not even 371 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,560 thinking of right now or in the next week or two. 372 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,440 Think of like, who shows up in my life? 373 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,960 Who can I be vulnerable with? Who doesn't judge me, try to fix 374 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,400 me or dismiss me? Very well said in my first book. 375 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,800 It's good to see me again. I wrote a chapter called The 376 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,240 Board of Directors where I talk about how in my own life I have 377 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,120 a board of people and sometimes there's a shuffling of the board 378 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,080 of directors. They're kind of the five closest 379 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,160 people in my life at any given time. 380 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,440 Not to kind of harken back to a Myspace top aid or something 381 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,360 like that, but you know, we all have our kind of folks that 382 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,760 hopefully we can go to. And if you feel that you don't, 383 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,560 you can always start with a professional and you should kind 384 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,720 of date around, test out a few different professionals and see 385 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,440 how you feel with them. The most important thing is that 386 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,880 you should feel they really get you and that they're sometimes 387 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,960 going to challenge you to sit with that pain because a good 388 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,080 therapist, a good coach, they're not just going to say, and how 389 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,200 does that feel? They're going to say, well, hold 390 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,440 on, wait a second. I actually, we need to go back 391 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,280 to that. I think you need to sit with 392 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,000 that for a moment. Let's be with that. 393 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,440 And as you're talking about anchors, of course, my own 394 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,400 anchors, you know, come to mind. There's so many experiences that 395 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,880 I've had over the years that have helped me to see, you know 396 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,480 what? I can be with this pain and I 397 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,720 can call this person. I can text them and say code 398 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,520 red, please, I need you to come over. 399 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,560 Can we order Thai food and watch a movie and just chat, please? 400 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,840 You know, I think we all need that getting down into the nitty 401 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,880 gritty of what it looks like. It's, it's not this kind of 402 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,960 grandiose idea that so many people build in their head. 403 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,840 It's just literally, it's saying to someone, you know, I'm 404 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,200 struggling with this. This is how I'm feeling. 405 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,480 And then being like, yeah, babe, I I get it. 406 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,000 That's really tough. Like, is there anything I can 407 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,760 do? Do you need me to do anything? 408 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,280 Do you want me to just listen? You know, if you have someone 409 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,360 that's really emotionally intelligent, they'll know too 410 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,760 that it's not always about doing either. 411 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,360 Yeah. I mean, like, you want to really 412 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,160 stay away from doing and you want to be more. 413 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,520 The magic is that being with. So your anchors and I spell it 414 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,040 out, it's more about I am with you in this experience. 415 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,760 You're not alone and you might even feel alone, but I'm right 416 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,960 here next to you with the intensity of. 417 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,360 So that's often what we didn't get as children because of our, 418 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,600 you know, and the book talks really deeply about attachment 419 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,960 styles and what your parents might have been going through in 420 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,040 order for you to adapt in the way that you did and how those 421 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,560 adaptations show up in your in your adult life. 422 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,480 And I explained the wheel of attachment, which is so new, but 423 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,680 it really shows you like the full picture of what you didn't 424 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,240 get in. A lot of people didn't get 425 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,760 emotional holding and that is the number one thing that builds 426 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,560 secure attachment. It's not love, it's emotional 427 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,360 presence that builds inner security. 428 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:33,520 So if you're listening, that's exactly what you need as an 429 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,160 adult to start to fill in the what you didn't get as a child. 430 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,040 So once you start to receive what you didn't get, that's when 431 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,640 the work starts to show up. Amen to that. 432 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,640 And it's not just a romantic partner that can do it, y'all. 433 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,040 It's a friend, it's a family member, it's a professional. 434 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,680 Sometimes it could even maybe be a colleague, someone that you 435 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,600 get coffee or lunch with who that consistency just adds up 436 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,360 over time where you can share to the degree that it might be 437 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,240 professionally acceptable, of course, and just have them there 438 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,320 with you so that again, you know, you're not alone in it. 439 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,760 So, so powerful for people to hear that you got to build your 440 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,320 support system. And if you have to start with 441 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,920 one person and that person is a mental health professional, then 442 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,600 please do so. Do so absolutely and make sure 443 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,760 that professional doesn't try to fix you, doesn't try to diagnose 444 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,880 you, doesn't try to put an agenda on you. 445 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,120 Make sure they're going into the body. 446 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,080 And if if they're really good and you like them, but they're 447 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,240 not going there, bring the book. The book is literally a road map 448 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,480 to do with a professional as well. 449 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,760 And make sure they're, you know, going into, you know, in your 450 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,600 implicit world, into the attachment wounds and into the 451 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,560 body because we can't heal attachment wounds logically. 452 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240 We have to be with what's going on in our soma. 453 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,480 Amen. I, I definitely want to talk 454 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,560 about somatics and I just want to reference something you said 455 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,480 earlier before we do. You were talking about how a lot 456 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,720 of times we might go to someone. Usually if you're anxiously 457 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,480 attached, then probably a romantic partner or prospect to 458 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,840 try to get them to take away the pain. 459 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,680 I think it's really important to recognize this is how we create 460 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,800 dependency and more importantly, Co dependency. 461 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,720 That person becomes a drug. They become the pathway through 462 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,800 which we're able to experience relief instead of learning how 463 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,920 to be with that and share it with a variety of people. 464 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,600 Yeah and I mean, listen, I've been there. 465 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,760 We all do it unconsciously. And if you're in a relationship 466 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,960 that is a little bit like that, that relationship can be a the 467 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,280 portal in and I I talk about using your relationship if it's 468 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,320 activating new law as the portal into either your own healing or 469 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,360 collective healing, because I do believe I helped many anxious 470 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:58,960 avoidant attachments heal. And I talk about that in the 471 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,760 book. And I also think that if you're 472 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,040 in a relationship that is waking up a lot in you, that is your 473 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,880 portal. Like you don't need to leave the 474 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800 relationship per SE. You need to start to be with the 475 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,800 deeper levels of what that relationship is actually waking 476 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,720 up and getting conscious around that. 477 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,600 Yeah, couldn't agree more. And I think a lot of folks also 478 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,000 beat themselves up for staying in a relationship while they 479 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,360 work on some of this, even if it might not be fulfilling. 480 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,120 But relationships are a practice ground. 481 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,200 It's experiences that help us to learn and apply a lot of these 482 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,480 principles. And of course, hindsight is 483 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,160 always 2020, as they say. You know, I do want to. 484 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,560 No regrets, right? Like, it's not so easy to leave. 485 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,120 And we all, we all get there in our own time, of course. 486 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,200 Yeah. We all find acceptance in our 487 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,080 own way and on our own timeline, certainly, and I help people to 488 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,680 understand that too. Like, it's easy for you to say 489 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,840 now that you would have left sooner, but maybe it's actually 490 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,800 important that you repeated what you needed to in the 491 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,040 relationship to arrive at a place where you were finally 492 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,520 able to accept that you were done. 493 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,240 Many of us need to do that. I want to talk somatics because 494 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,720 this is an area that I'm super passionate about. 495 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,680 In the book you talk a lot about how to identify sensations in 496 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,080 your body, the concept of enteroception. 497 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,880 Talk to me and the folks watching and listening about why 498 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,240 this is important and how to practice it. 499 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,960 Yeah, I have AI think it's 5 meditations in the book, but six 500 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,840 on my website. So if you buy the book, they're 501 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760 in there and I record them separately for you so you can 502 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,240 work on building interceptions. How we store attachment wounds 503 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,880 when we're younger is in our fascia, in our gut, in our 504 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,880 nervous system, in our heart space. 505 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,360 I store a lot, I stored a lot in my heart space. 506 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,000 We have to store these things in our body when we can't process 507 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,800 them. That's literally, it's not that 508 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,480 traumatic things happen to us is that we are not able to process 509 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,040 process them. So they get stored in the body. 510 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,920 For anyone who's listening, if you're working on your 511 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,280 attachment wounds and your therapist or your coach or 512 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,520 anybody is not going into the body, not really going to get to 513 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,880 the root of it. So we have something called 514 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,840 implicit memory. The sensations that live in our 515 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,320 body are memory. So when we're born, we don't 516 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,680 have explicit memory. We can't think of things like 517 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,240 the way you would think of a movie. 518 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,160 We don't have that part of our brain fully developed yet. 519 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,800 So we're really born with the ability to store sensations. 520 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,120 So when your gut hurts or you feel queasy or your chest is 521 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,280 tight, I want you to know that that is memory. 522 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,880 That is your little me. There is science there. 523 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,520 I go into deep detail. You can't read this book and not 524 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,960 walk away without understanding memory on a deep level when we 525 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,680 were younger and our parents don't have the capacity because 526 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,000 they didn't develop interception themselves. 527 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,480 So they're not sitting down with us. 528 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,040 They're not saying, hey, Chris, what's going on inside you? 529 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,400 How you feeling? Where do you feel that all that 530 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,320 makes sense? And they're not mirroring you 531 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,680 and they're not reflecting you and they're not giving you a 532 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,040 sense of what is inside of you going on, What matters? 533 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,760 How do you start to be with your body? 534 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,960 We end up like disconnecting from our body in many ways. 535 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,440 I know that I I write about feeling very just so like 536 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,560 disconnected, like a walking head. 537 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,720 And so many of us live in our left hemisphere and pretty 538 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,440 disconnected from our body. But our body is where we store, 539 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,640 where we store the memory. And so a lot of the book talks 540 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,200 about shifting out of our left hemisphere into our right 541 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,440 hemisphere, meeting another person in the state of safety in 542 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,920 our right hemisphere. This is all very scientific, but 543 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,000 allowing the streams and our body way to come alive and to 544 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,400 start to tune into what our body is telling us and start to 545 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,800 understand memory on a deep level and have that held. 546 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,120 If we didn't build interception, we can build it as an adult. 547 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,120 It is actually neuro wiring that they show that we can build as 548 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,560 an adult and we can learn how to have interception. 549 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,840 We just need a little support as an adult to start to do that. 550 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,080 So I gently do that in the book. There are meditations through 551 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,920 out the book, so if you buy the physical book you will get them. 552 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,800 I recorded them in the audio and I recorded them separately 553 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,960 because I want people to be able to go there and practice that so 554 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,440 much. Because if they don't have the 555 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,800 neuro wiring, it really takes a lot of practice to start to tune 556 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,720 into the sensations in our body and build the capacity for 557 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,680 interception as an adult. Super, super important there. 558 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,960 There is the connection between a lack of attunement and Co 559 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,480 regulation. Growing up with not really 560 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,160 developing this skill, many of us are dissociated and 561 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,720 completely detached from the experiences we're having in our 562 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,200 body. You know, if you're so 563 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600 disconnected from your system that you don't recognize you're 564 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:08,120 not even pausing to breathe, Yeah, You need to learn to slow 565 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,080 down and come back into your container. 566 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,160 And interception is how we do that and how we recognize where 567 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,400 it's occurring, how it feels and in so doing, allow the energy to 568 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,680 surface and be released. I absolutely am in alignment 569 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,160 with everything that you are saying. 570 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,440 This is what I espouse in my work as well. 571 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,800 I've talked about it already on the podcast, so I know this is 572 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,840 going to resonate with so many people. 573 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,720 I think it's important that they have that phrasing though, and 574 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,280 taroception so they can do further research on this as 575 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,400 well. But remember folks, it's not 576 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,720 always about a logical, rational understanding. 577 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,400 This is about embodiment. So slowing down, closing your 578 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,760 eyes, recognizing where the constriction, the tightness, the 579 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,400 tension might be, maybe not even starting to put a label on it 580 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,760 yet, but where is it in you? For me, a lot of times it was 581 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,080 also in my heart center, also in my throat. 582 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,040 Anxiously attached. People tend to store more in the 583 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,040 heart center, believe it or not. And our avoidant protectors or 584 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,000 avoidance have more typically in the stomach. 585 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,680 Makes sense. Makes total sense. 586 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,360 When I wasn't speaking up, I would also feel that 587 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,240 constriction or tightness in my throat as well. 588 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,120 Yeah. And I, you know, for anyone 589 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,080 who's listening, I know that understanding this information 590 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,600 is so important. And I understood it pretty well 591 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,680 with anxiously attached and dived way deeper with safe and 592 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,240 understand it extremely well. And yet understanding it 593 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,880 logically does not bypass the work. 594 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,840 Even as a professional, I had to go and do the work. 595 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,920 And I thought, well, if I learn enough about it, maybe I can 596 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,400 avoid it. I might be the hallmark for 597 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,760 that. Yeah. 598 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,880 I'm nodding. I'm smiling. 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,120 I'm laughing. Yeah. 600 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,200 I think we've all been there. Certainly. 601 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,360 There's such a discomfort with being with those sensations when 602 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,159 you don't really learn how to do it, when you don't have a parent 603 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,600 who, by the way, you beautifully modeled this. 604 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,080 Tell me what's going on, sweetheart. 605 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,679 What are you experiencing? Where is it happening? 606 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,400 How can I be here for you? I'm not going anywhere, you 607 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,400 know, hearing those things. And I think the reason why folks 608 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,199 like you and I might even say that out loud for folks is 609 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,040 because we're also saying that to ourselves. 610 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,159 I've gotten into the the practice of pausing. 611 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,400 And I know this sounds kooky and wacky and woo woo probably. 612 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:40,800 But I'm going to keep doing it anyway because it works for me. 613 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,400 I will walk around my house and talk to myself when I'm 614 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,920 experiencing a deep emotional response to something I might be 615 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,679 in the midst of having like a big emotional reaction, like I 616 00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:00,560 might be crying, like sobbing, shaking and I I will stop and 617 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,760 almost like re parent myself in that moment by saying it's OK, 618 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,680 sweetheart, let it out, let it out. 619 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,400 This is what this is for good. Keep going, release, breathe. 620 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,600 You've got this. It's almost like coaching myself 621 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,120 through the experience and you know, it's, it's like a 622 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,440 coexistence of like this logical presence and then the emotional 623 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,920 experience simultaneously. I don't know, but for me it 624 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,960 works. And that's literally what some 625 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,520 of this looks like. Folks crying it out, sitting in 626 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,720 the discomfort and learning to let it pass because it will 627 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,600 always pass. And things that are deeply 628 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,200 rooted. And you mentioned this earlier, 629 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,120 you mentioned it in the book. You might need to practice this 630 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,440 multiple times to be with the pain of the same event. 631 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,000 I mentioned to you Jessica, before hopping on, this is this 632 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,800 year is the 20th anniversary of my mom's passing. 633 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,560 My sister has passed, my dad has passed. 634 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,880 I've talked about all of these things openly in my books, all 635 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,760 of my work, the podcast. It doesn't mean that the pain 636 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,600 goes away. It it's different. 637 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,080 Grief is unique for each experience that you have in each 638 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,360 relationship that you have it with. 639 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,840 But I can tell you I don't experience things as intensely 640 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,280 as I used to. And that's because I've allowed 641 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,400 a lot of the energy that was stored up that I pushed down. 642 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,080 I didn't even go to my mom's funeral, and I wrote about that 643 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,400 in my first book. But allowing that energy to come 644 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,920 up and out is so important, and it needs to happen many times 645 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,680 usually. Yeah. 646 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,240 And I really want to drive home the point, especially if your 647 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,600 audience is anxiously attached. Actually, this brought me 648 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,400 relief. Like, you don't do this work 649 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,800 alone. You are not supposed to move 650 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,520 through those hard spaces all by yourself. 651 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,160 You are meant to have someone else be present with you. 652 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,400 And in some ways, it's like, I got to find someone else. 653 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,560 But in another way is that someone who identifies as 654 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,680 anxiously attached clearly wrote the book on it. 655 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,480 But it gave me relief to know that like I, I can't move into 656 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,320 these really hard territories sometimes because I actually 657 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,880 need the support of another nervous system to go there. 658 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,240 So both is true, yes. Lean into your feelings, talk to 659 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,800 yourself, go there. And if you're really stuck, you 660 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,440 might need someone else to hold the space. 661 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,960 And if it's really young, again, you definitely need someone else 662 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,440 to hold space with you. 100% yes. 663 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,240 And there were a lot of conversations that I've had with 664 00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:37,280 my therapist in sessions that have led and with a lot of other 665 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,920 people in my life that have led to me being able to do this by 666 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,720 myself. Not always of course, but to be 667 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:48,320 able to build the muscle of interception and self 668 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,200 regulation. And that has occurred because of 669 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,160 all of the other experiences of Co regulation with safe people 670 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,360 that I have had. It's not mutually exclusive, 671 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,960 y'all. It is tied together. 672 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,680 The more you experience it with others, the more you learn you 673 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,320 can do it with yourself and also you don't have to. 674 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,840 And that definitely does offer relief. 675 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,080 And I'm glad that you named. That as well, yeah. 676 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,080 That and that's such an important part, Chris. 677 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,920 It's like all those Instagram people that are like self 678 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,720 regulation is where it's at and you got to learn how to regulate 679 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,600 your nervous system. Like that is almost harmful 680 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,840 because I, you know, from the, from interpersonal neurobiology, 681 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,560 if you can't regulate your nervous system, it's because you 682 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,320 didn't get enough Co regulation as an infant and young person. 683 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,400 So we don't develop the ability to self regulate unless we get a 684 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,360 lot of really healthy Co regulation and that gets 685 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,640 internalized. So if you're listening to this 686 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,000 and you're like, I get really dysregulated and I reach out for 687 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,480 people, you didn't get enough holding, but with enough 688 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,840 holding, you internalize with that Co regulation, you 689 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,520 internalize that person and then you get the capacity for self 690 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,200 regulation. So one leads to the other and 691 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,400 you should never shame yourself. You should never live under the 692 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,840 idea that I need to learn how to self regulate. 693 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,720 Like that's not how it works. If you struggle with self 694 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:15,480 regulation, more Co regulation will lead to eventually having 695 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,400 more internal ability to self regulate because you'll 696 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,160 internalize that process. Yes, absolutely. 697 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,680 You have to experience it through other people to learn 698 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,520 how to do it with yourself. And also I have to say, even 699 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,240 just like being a coach and being able to hold the space for 700 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,000 other people has been healing for me in a lot of ways too. 701 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,600 Like it works both ways. Having other people hold it with 702 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,480 me is really powerful. And me being with others and 703 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,280 being of service is really powerful too. 704 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,280 So it's not just one directional. 705 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,320 Remember, we're all interconnected and that speaks 706 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,640 to something that I wanted to talk about with you too, which 707 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,600 is compassion. And I have to say, the way that 708 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,600 you write is it's so it feels so effortless. 709 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,480 I know it's not OK. As a a fellow author, I know 710 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,840 it's not effortless. There's a lot that goes into 711 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,040 making something look and sound effortless and colloquial and 712 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,360 easy to understand and brimming with compassion. 713 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,200 And that's really what I took away from Safe. 714 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,200 And so I wanted to ask you, you bring this up in the context of, 715 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,960 you know, for yourself and also for other people who couldn't 716 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,720 love us the way that we needed. We talked about some of that 717 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:34,800 deprivation today. What does compassion look like 718 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,760 in practice when you have experienced old pain coming up? 719 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,120 I know we've talked about enteroception. 720 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,120 We've talked about inner child and work and re parenting and 721 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,880 things like that. How are you able to bring that 722 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,000 compassion to yourself? Yeah, I think, you know, from 723 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,960 doing my own work and being with these, you know, parts within 724 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,640 myself and experiencing everything. 725 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,680 I think that I, I think that I'm humbled by how fragile, how 726 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,440 impressionable we are, how experiences shape us. 727 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,960 I think I've had the embodied experience of that from, I even, 728 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,480 I even share about a memory of being an infant in the crib that 729 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,200 came to me as I was doing my work. 730 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,440 I regressed so much. And so I think just from 731 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,720 understanding how I've been shaped on such a deep level that 732 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,800 I'm able to just have so much compassion for all my choices 733 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,000 and all my behaviors now. And I actually have so much 734 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,800 compassion for everyone else, even people who have behaviors 735 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,560 that might appear hurtful or harmful. 736 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,240 And it's not that I allow those behaviors in my life, but I 737 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,960 think when you start to do this work, you start to understand, 738 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,760 wow, like, everyone is adapting and trying to survive in the way 739 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,520 that they know how to survive. And a lot of people are doing 740 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,000 the best they can. And you don't have to let people 741 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,720 into your world, but you start to understand how wounding 742 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,840 people wound others. And I start to see like my 743 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,320 parts, you know, I used to have a lot of shame around my big 744 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,040 feelings because my mom would always say, I'm like, so 745 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,680 sensitive and all this stuff. And as I do this work, it's like 746 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,400 my therapist and my anchors were like, wow, like these big 747 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,080 feelings in you, like, are really speaking to things that 748 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,280 have really happened to you. And let's like, really make 749 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,440 space for them because they're so important. 750 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,920 And I remember a period of my life where it was like, I'm just 751 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,440 going to make so much space for what what's going on inside of 752 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,920 me to have, you know, have the space to express itself, really 753 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,440 pay attention to her. And I, I don't have big 754 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,560 sensational experiences as much anymore. 755 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,920 She whispers to me a little bit more now. 756 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,120 I think if I was in an unhealthy relationship or if I was in a 757 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,320 certain situation, maybe she would get wakened up a little 758 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,040 bit more. But now, like I even just hear 759 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,400 her whisper and I'm like, OK, I'm going to put some time aside 760 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,400 to be with her. And I think a lot of people 761 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,080 would say that I have too much compassion maybe for other 762 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,480 people or that's not the right word. 763 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,040 But like there's a fine line between boundaries and letting 764 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,080 you know people's behaviors. But like when you start to 765 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,640 really understand people's behaviors, like I write at the, 766 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,880 I write in Chapter 9, like now when I see someone give me the 767 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,720 middle finger on the, on the, on the on the road, I'm kind of 768 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:33,080 like, oh, that guy probably has like 3 years of crying to do and 769 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,440 it's being manifesting into his road rage and he's just an 770 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,800 angry, aggressive person who's never had a chance to release 771 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,440 anything in his body. You know, like, so my brain 772 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,560 works differently now that I've been through this experience. 773 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,320 And I think you start to look, you'll start to look at everyone 774 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,320 differently. Like you start to see that 775 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,720 people are adapting and people are trying to do the best with 776 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,080 what they've been given and not everybody's been given what they 777 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,040 needed. And so we've just kind of become 778 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,000 these adaptive versions of ourselves until we're lucky 779 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,400 enough and we have the privilege to heal. 780 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,680 And I, I really think that healing in my own world has been 781 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,000 a privilege. I think I'm, I'm one of the, a 782 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,520 privileged person to be able to have slowed down enough and have 783 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,480 had the resources and the right people to heal these things. 784 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,360 And not everybody either. Not everybody has the capacity 785 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,400 and not everybody has, you know, the financial resources or the 786 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,960 people try to have a lot of compassion in my mentor, Bonnie 787 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,640 Bananak, who really was played a heavy hand in helping me write 788 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,320 this book. She wrote the Heart of trauma 789 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,040 and has study interpersonal neurobiology for 20 more years 790 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:44,920 than me. People say that when they 791 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,120 interact with her, they've never experienced compassion like 792 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,080 through a person. And even in my first interaction 793 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,440 with her, I just felt her compassion come through to me. 794 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,240 And I feel like she's like in printed in me in some way. 795 00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:03,120 And a lot of the compassion in the book is really her tone also 796 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,040 coming through as well. I mean, that just speaks so 797 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,200 eloquently to the power of an anchor in your life to imprint 798 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:11,800 on you. Yeah. 799 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,680 And it's interesting because the more that I work on my healing, 800 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,800 which I still do, by the way, guys like I, it doesn't stop. 801 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,440 I'm still meet with my therapist. 802 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,920 I work with coaches off and on. I read books. 803 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,600 Not as many self help books as I used to, but having written them 804 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,840 and doing coaching, sometimes I need a break. 805 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,880 Everyone, you know, it can't all be healing all the time. 806 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,200 The more I do the work, the more I can recognize the unhealed 807 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,280 aspects of others when they're coming up. 808 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,000 And I do have compassion for that. 809 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,520 And it's interesting because that also coexists with almost 810 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,600 like A and you can stay over there. 811 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,680 You don't need to come any closer than that. 812 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,640 Not about avoiding it, but recognizing that person's not 813 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,840 safe for me and they might not even realize the ways that 814 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,080 they're showing up. They're very unconscious to 815 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,280 this. You can have compassion for that 816 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,520 and I think that also is important for people to hear and 817 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,320 understand. If you see someone else 818 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,600 struggling, and I know many folks that are listening to this 819 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,880 and watching are guilty of this, you don't need to save that 820 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,720 person. You don't need to step in and 821 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:28,040 try to fix them or do the work for them or say, hey, I noticed, 822 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,520 you know, you seem a little off. Have you thought about reading 823 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,280 this book? Let them not to overuse a 824 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,400 certain phrase these days. Let them figure it out. 825 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,920 Some people never do and that is OK. 826 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,440 You can still have compassion for them. 827 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,400 You can see it for what it is, an unhealed part of them, 828 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,080 dysregulation. I mean, there's a lot of 829 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,200 different ways of describing this that are all 830 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,800 interconnected, but look at it for what it is. 831 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,320 They're doing the best that they can, and they're probably not 832 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,880 safe for you. That's OK, so long as you 833 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:05,120 recognize that for yourself. Remember, access is everything. 834 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,560 Jim, Ron famously said we're the average of the five people that 835 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,720 we spend the most time with. And I believe that this is true 836 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,000 especially for our nervous system. 837 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:19,600 Get very discerning about the people that you allow to have 838 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,120 access to your time and your energy and recognize no one's 839 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:25,440 going to do this perfectly for you. 840 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,480 No one's going to have unending compassion for you. 841 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,240 We all have obligations. We're living through very 842 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:34,400 stressful times. We're more distracted than ever. 843 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,560 We have a lot of pulls on our attention. 844 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,480 But if more often than not, they can do this for you, they might 845 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,280 deserve a seat at your table. 100% yeah. 846 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,840 Start locating those people. It's so, so important. 847 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,160 And yeah, when you do the work, and I'm sure many people are 848 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,120 listening, are in the midst of the work or get, you know, your 849 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,240 compassion builds for you and other people as you move through 850 00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:58,520 the journey. It really does. 851 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:03,680 Before I go to some rapid fire questions that I prepared here, 852 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,320 what do you want people to take away from safe that we haven't 853 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,480 already discussed today? Well, one of the freebies 854 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,280 freebies that I have is I, I talk about the wheel of 855 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,640 attachment and I talk about attachment in a new way. 856 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,000 So if you're listening and you identify as anxiously attached, 857 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,320 they're very rarely do you have one attachment style. 858 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,920 And so the wheel like that I dive deep into and as part of a 859 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,680 freebie talks about how we move along the wheel, how we can have 860 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,560 more than one experience with one person and how attachment is 861 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,880 really the combination of two people's embedded patterns. 862 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,240 So I want people to understand like that this book is more of a 863 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,200 holistic view of attachment and it's it's a lens on attachment 864 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,200 that hasn't been written about before. 865 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:52,640 I want people to understand that they're going to get a very deep 866 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,880 dive into the new and a more holistic view of attachment if 867 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,840 they read the book. I think that that's like a 868 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,960 major, a major part of the book and and for people to understand 869 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,400 like don't box yourself in, like with anxiously attached, like 870 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,440 you probably have some security in you. 871 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,400 You might have some avoidance as well. 872 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,720 And if you read this book, you're going to start to have a 873 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:17,680 deeper understanding of your own complexities and where and how 874 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,080 these different patterns show up for you and how to heal them. 875 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,760 Very well said. I mean it's important to 876 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,320 approach this work with nuance. And on that note, when you might 877 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,040 identify that someone, maybe it might even be you, is more on 878 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,120 the avoidant side of things. Please recognize not all 879 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,880 avoidance are the same. Not all avoidance are created 880 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,960 equal. Not all avoidance are worthy of 881 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,240 completely discarding and disqualifying and discrediting 882 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,720 because of a label that they might associate with. 883 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,920 I just did a TikTok video on this recently and got a lot of 884 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,720 Flack for it from speak of the devil. 885 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:58,120 Folks who haven't properly processed the pain that they 886 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,600 have experienced at the hand of perhaps someone on the more 887 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,080 avoidance side of things or more emotionally unavailable side of 888 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,280 things. Not all people are the same. 889 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,000 Please approach this with more nuance, especially when it comes 890 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,000 to yourself. You don't have to be this static 891 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,440 label. Not all of us fall so neatly 892 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,080 into a category. Nuance, nuance, nuance. 893 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,800 It's everything. So I'm really glad you brought. 894 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,920 That. Yeah, And if you read, if you 895 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,960 read safe, you're going to deeply understand avoidance. 896 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,120 And it's, it's not a permission slip for you to engage in ways 897 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,080 that are harmful in certain relationships. 898 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,480 But you might walk away with, one, understanding your own 899 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,560 avoidance and avoidant protectors. 900 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,000 And two, you might understand what's at the core of them and 901 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,720 you'll start to make sense of that, which might bring more 902 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:51,440 compassion to the table. Yep. 903 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,040 Bring it full circle. I love it. 904 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,480 Yes, absolutely. OK, rapid fire questions here. 905 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,720 What's a practice you return to daily when you need to feel safe 906 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:03,440 in your body? So I talk about this in the 907 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,280 book, but I'll resource my safe people and pretend they're in 908 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,960 the room with me if I can't access them, like call them, 909 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,560 I'll say, what does it feel like to have my best friend Julia 910 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,800 here? Or how can I feel my friend 911 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,960 Alan's presence? Or, you know, and I'll start to 912 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,320 like resource the feeling of them around me. 913 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,000 You kind of answered the second question here, too. 914 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,240 Who is someone alive or gone that instantly brings you a 915 00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:29,760 sense of safety when you think of them? 916 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,520 You know, I have a best friend, Julia, and she's just, so, you 917 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,760 know, I remember when she came into my life, I was actually 918 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,520 struggling. She's just this ray of sunshine. 919 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,080 And I can call her and, you know, most of the time she's 920 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,320 just really cheery. And I have a friend, Alan, and 921 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,200 like, he is always there for me. Like I know I don't even need to 922 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,280 text him or contact him anymore as much as I did in my thicker 923 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,240 for healing yours. But like he's always there. 924 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:01,600 He's my, you know, my study. So like I think of these people, 925 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:06,160 they live inside me the way a secure baby in internalized 926 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,240 secure parents. As adults, we internalize our 927 00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:13,400 anchors so they live inside me as a form of security at all 928 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,720 times. Very well set up. 929 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,560 What is a common piece of relationship advice that you 930 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,640 completely disagree with? I don't. 931 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,600 I don't really know one offhand that like irks me. 932 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:28,560 I don't know. All relationships are supposed 933 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,280 to heal you. That's not necessarily true. 934 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,520 All relationships are nearer. Sometimes our trauma is doing 935 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,600 all the picking and it's, it's so sad because if we heal that 936 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,000 trauma, we might not end up in some of these situations. 937 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,080 So be mindful that trauma can really lead us into some scary 938 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,280 situations and it's important to heal that. 939 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,840 Very well said. And if you need to repeat 940 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,440 something, but you walk away more quickly, that's also 941 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,320 progress people. So recognize that too. 942 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,560 This is an all or nothing. If you only stayed for a month 943 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,800 instead of a year or a decade, that's progress. 944 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,520 So celebrate that too. Recognize what you can learn and 945 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,760 move forward. If you had to describe what 946 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,400 healing feels like in one image or metaphor, what, what would it 947 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,560 be? I mean, I, I feel like it's this 948 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:23,880 hard vulnerability and awakening experience of parts of yourself 949 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,840 that have been there all along. And if you're listening and 950 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,120 you're like, oh, I don't want to feel that they're there all the 951 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,360 time anyway, but a real recognizing of them and for me, 952 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,360 a real vulnerability of letting other people come and help me. 953 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,440 I'm so good at helping others, but it's just the space of 954 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,080 recognizing them, the shame of having them, working through 955 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,920 that, holding them. I mean, everything that we 956 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,080 talked about and everything that's in the book, like I have 957 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,920 walked through and hasn't been easy. 958 00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,120 And it's not easy, but I will tell you if you're listening, it 959 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,000 is liberating. And not that I'm healed right. 960 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,400 Like the journey keeps going. But if you work through the 961 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:11,960 implicit, like the core stuff, you createspace in your body and 962 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,120 life is is better. You have deeper relationships, 963 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,960 you feel more free. So there is there is another 964 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,920 side to this when you walk through it. 965 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,440 I don't want people to think like this. 966 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,600 It's this horrible thing. It's it's a hard, courageous 967 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,560 thing to move through. And it creates a life of more 968 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,480 deeper connection and more inner space and more peace. 969 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,080 I love that the recognizing the awakening, the awakening part 970 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,200 really, I saw this like burst of light come forth that was really 971 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,920 beautiful and that's how I experienced it. 972 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,440 The idea of freedom that you described, love it. 973 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,040 The piece that you named, yes, beautifully put. 974 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,880 Final question, what's the most hopeful change you've seen in 975 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,000 your own relationships since doing this work? 976 00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,280 I have never felt freedom in the way that I've felt freedom. 977 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:07,080 I just spent the summer in the Hamptons and I have had so many 978 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,560 wonderful people come and visit me and I am so present in my 979 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:16,760 moments and my connections and I have so many attachments that 980 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,920 fill me instead of just like a primary one that's draining or 981 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,080 causing me all my work. I feel like the sense of freedom 982 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,640 that I have from more inner security lets me expand so much 983 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,400 in my world in ways that I never and I couldn't show up today, 984 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,200 here today in the way that I am, in the energy that I am. 985 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,200 If I hadn't gone through this work and felt so, I feel so 986 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,920 present and expansive and safe. I'm safe within my own being and 987 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,040 I wasn't. I wasn't for years and I didn't 988 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,440 even know that I wasn't. I was just surviving. 989 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,200 Wow. There's so many parallels in our 990 00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:01,160 stories, in our careers. The final section of Needy No 991 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,560 More of the book is called Expansion for that very reason. 992 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,000 I've experienced that feeling myself too. 993 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,320 And it's not this constant state of bliss, but it is a more kind 994 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,280 of consistent drum beat of connection that, I don't know, 995 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,040 it just it makes you feel more fulfilled, more supported, like 996 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,680 you're not alone in all of this, that you're not the only one who 997 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,640 struggles. You know, I think that's kind of 998 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,280 the essence of being human. We all struggle. 999 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,960 And recognizing that you can share that with others. 1000 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,160 You can be there for them in their struggle. 1001 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,240 Yeah, it does make you feel freer. 1002 00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:41,960 I think recognizing that. Definitely, Jessica, this has 1003 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,280 been an absolute honor and pleasure. 1004 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:52,320 How can people find you and pre-order or order safe? 1005 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,520 Yeah. So I am giving Chris a link 1006 00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:57,520 actually gives you guys free gifts. 1007 00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,960 So it's a beyond the label like PDF that talks about the wheel 1008 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,520 of attachment. And there's like a 40 minute 1009 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,840 video of me talking with my mentor, Bonnie Battenock about 1010 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,080 what it feels like to earn security. 1011 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,200 So if you fill out the form and put your e-mail in there, you 1012 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,040 will get those free gifts. Check your spam, but they come 1013 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,160 automatically. And if it this is being 1014 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,160 released, I think right before the book comes out. 1015 00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,320 So you'll get chapter 1 as well. So you can start right away. 1016 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,960 So yeah, Chris will have the link for you either in an e-mail 1017 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,920 or link it. And, and yeah, that that's a 1018 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,640 great way, but it's also on Amazon if you just want to go 1019 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,600 and directly buy it, it's on all, all major places, Barnes 1020 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,160 and Noble. And I'm on Instagram as Jessica 1021 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,440 Baum, LMHC. If you read the book and it, you 1022 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,360 know, and you want to reach out to me, I try really hard to 1023 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,880 respond to everyone. I want to know, you know, how 1024 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,160 it's touched you. I encourage that. 1025 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,920 So reach out to me, stay connected to me. 1026 00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,880 Yeah. And I hope, I hope that if 1027 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,440 you're listening and you take this journey, I really hope that 1028 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,440 this becomes a companion for you. 1029 00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:10,480 That URL, by the way, way, is jessicabaumlmhc.com/interview. 1030 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,400 I'll include that in the show notes, everyone. 1031 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:18,840 And Safe comes out on October 28th, 2025. 1032 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,880 Jessica, thank you so much. Again, I'm deeply grateful. 1033 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,280 Thank you so much for having me. It's been so amazing being 1034 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,400 interviewed by you and you really get it. 1035 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,120 And I'm just, I'm so grateful for you. 1036 00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,080 And yeah, thank you.