Hello everyone, and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast
dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style.
I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and
author Chris Ratcliffe. I've helped thousands of people
across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment
through my books, workshops, digital downloads, and coaching
program. I'm excited to carry on that
mission here on the podcast, sharing tools and techniques,
principles and practices for you to explore on your journey to
growing more secure. Welcome back everyone.
I know it's been a few weeks. I'm excited to share another
guest interview with y'all. We have Valerie Rubin here
today. Valerie is a relationship and
anxiety therapist who helps people heal their anxious
attachment style so they can finally experience relationships
rooted in calm, trust and emotional safety.
She's the founder of Freedom from Anxious Attachment
Blueprint, her signature one-on-one program that guides
women through healing, fear of abandonment, inner child wounds,
and self worth struggles, not just intellectually, but
somatically, so their bodies can finally believe they're safe to
love and be loved. Valerie is also the host of the
Anxiety Recovery Podcast, ranked in the top 15% of podcasts
globally, where she interviews leading experts in trauma,
attachment, and emotional healing.
Through her work, she's helped thousands of listeners and
clients understand that love is not a source of anxiety, but a
sanctuary of safety. Valerie, thanks so much for
coming on the show. I'm happy to have you here.
Thank you so much for having me on, Chris.
For those who don't know, Chris is on my podcast and we talked
all about emotional safety and how to really utilize that when
you're healing anxious attachment.
Highly recommend getting into that one if you haven't listened
to that one already. With Chris it was amazing.
Yes, yes, I'm glad you brought that up.
I was going to mention that too. I can link that in the show
notes for folks so they can check that out.
I know you and I, before we hopped on, we were talking
about, you know, what we want to cover today and the topic of
breaking free from dating emotionally unavailable folks
came up. This is such a big one that I've
been wanting to cover on the show, so I'm glad that we
identified that as something to discuss.
I think a good place to start, though, would be just to kind of
define emotional unavailability. What do you think emotional
unavailability means? Like what does that mean?
Yeah, that is a really great question because a lot of people
might see emotional unavailability as this huge
overarching thing. But it's really like I define it
as someone who is inconsistent, maybe someone who is showing
mixed signals, someone who is just their heart is not fully
open. And a lot of anxious attachers,
and this is coming from myself, who I used to blame and poke and
point at people who would lean more avoidantly attached when in
reality I myself was very emotionally unavailable.
But with anxious attachers, they're hyper available, meaning
they're very focused on the other and we're self abandoning.
We're not actually sharing our needs, sharing our truth,
sharing what we need because we have those protector parts and
fears of abandonment. And so we are equally as
emotionally unavailable if you are in that state.
And that's what like I wish I could have heard.
And it's like, that's why for me, I was consistently
attracting emotionally unavailable partners.
But this also could also could just look like they're
physically not there. Like for me in a previous
relationship, I was dating someone who was long distance.
I think it can be fabulous if it's short term or you've known
someone for for a while, but that's a way that's like a
buffer where you can't fully be vulnerable.
And if you've had emotionally and unavailable parents, which
if you're listening to this and you're anxiously attached or
disorganized, I guarantee you that's been your life like
myself. And so that becomes our
blueprint and our templating of what our nervous system feels
safe with. So, you know, that's just
really, really big. It really is.
I mean, you mentioned so much there that I definitely want to
dive deeper into today. I totally hear you though, in
terms of the physical distance, the emotional distance, there's
almost this like reluctance that as anxious attachers, like
obviously we're hyper vigilant. We're always reading, you know,
into the room and into the environment around us.
So we pick up on these cues and sometimes they start really
subtly, I think like someone taking a little bit longer to
text us back then maybe they normally would.
And I'm using air quotes for those listening.
But we tend to get to know someone and we're when we do
that, we're always monitoring how they're showing up.
And even subtle shifts can cause insecurity within us and can
make us even more hyper vigilant about, well, is this person in
this? Do they like me?
And that really takes us out of our power, I think, because then
we start focusing on them even more instead of asking
ourselves, like, do I like this? Is this the kind of consistency
that I need? Do I feel safe with this person?
More often than not, safety isn't an absolute proposition.
But I love what you're saying there, and I think reluctance is
the word that just comes to mind for me when I think about this.
It's like 1 foot in, one foot out.
Will they or won't they? Are they ready because they're
saying one thing and then their behavior is doing another?
Absolutely. And I want to add to the point
of reluctance because I know we're so focused on emotionally
unavailable relationships, but it's like a lot of people who
are anxiously attached. And this was definitely me.
And when I'm triggered, I can definitely notice that pattern
like sizzling through a little. It's like that fear of being
vulnerable, the fear of being seen.
And so in these emotionally unavailable relationships, we
don't actually have to open our hearts because they're not
meeting us in that depth, wondering when we're in these
types of dynamics. I feel so unseen, but you're
also not putting yourself out there in the way that you need.
It's like, can you remove the masks?
The I'm fine masks the I'm holding it all together mask?
Like can you help yourself feel safe in showing and removing the
masks? Like who who you are underneath?
Can you share with someone? Hey, I'm really fucking
struggling. I noticed even just noticing
your patterns and being like I notice a part of me wants to
hide and not share this. I noticed that you pulled away,
and that is giving me a lot of anxiety, like what's happening
on your end. It's like for someone who's
anxiously attached, they don't even want to share that because
it feels so scary because it's unknown, because they never had
to be fully vulnerable or fully seen.
And so that can be what can perpetuate you in staying with
these types of partners. Not because you want to, it's
just because we have something called neuroception.
So neuroception allows us to look into our memory bank and
files of is what type of love is safe.
And if we've had emotionally unavailable and neglectful
parents, that's what our nervous system and our body deems as
safe. So that is what our body in this
neuroception, it's unconscious. So we can't just talk our way
out of it and say I'm just going to go for someone healthy and
secure. When your body is not feeling
safe enough to do, do that and go there.
My goodness, there's a wealth of knowledge in what you just
shared. I do think they're, especially
in early stages of dating, there's like, you know, the fear
of being too much. You don't want to be a burden.
You don't want to like, you know, open up too quickly to
someone and be like, hey, I'm feeling anxious about this.
But actually I encourage folks to do that.
Like you need to be real about how you're feeling.
And expression is 1 antidote to anxiety because it's in the
repression and the suppression of how you feel that causes
anxiety because you're allowing for the pressure to build
internally. And it always comes out in one
way or another, likely in protest behavior.
So it's way better for you to express how you're feeling in as
clear and direct and as compassionately and as healthily
as you can. But you're not a burden for
having feelings and for wanting connection and consistency and
communication. I mean, that's what makes
relationships work. This whole idea of being a cool
person, like easygoing, nonchalant, that's not what
relationships are about. There is a way to go about it
where you can talk about asking for more of what you want.
And I've talked about this on the podcast before.
You know, you don't criticize your way to connection.
It doesn't work. But if you say like, hey, you
know, I'm hoping that we might be able to connect a little bit
more often. I've really enjoyed our dates so
far. I know we've been seeing each
other roughly about once a week. What do you think about us maybe
seeing each other twice a week? Next week, Right.
Yeah. Propose that, You know, always
focus on more of what you want. But try to drop this mask.
Try to not fall into the trap of being the cool guy or the cool
girl or the cool person, because you're only going to trap
yourself if you do that, and you're going to feel that
constrictive environment, that cage that you've built for
yourself. I'm so glad you brought this up,
Chris. This mask of like this secure,
no needs cool girl or cool boy, someone who's chill, right?
And that was definitely me in a previous relationship.
And that's just like what kept me in it and bottled in it was
because I wasn't actually sharing authentically what I
wanted until it got to such a point where he was taking a lot
of space. And then I was talking about
this with my therapist and she was saying, Valerie, that's a
lot of space. Even someone who's not anxiously
attached would feel anxious. And it's like when I started to
share, like, hey, I would love to spend more time with you.
Like, what are your thoughts on that?
It can feel very terrifying to express yourself when you've
been so used to playing this cool girl mask or, you know,
chill mask. But by keeping you in that chill
mask, you're never getting your needs met and you're always left
feeling deprived. Like I remember at one point he
was so pulled away that I look, this is like, so sad to say, but
I looked up like, is emotional starvation like a term?
Like, what is that? That was a few years ago, but
it's just like that's deeply, deeply sad.
And it's like I was perpetuating that cycle just as much as he
was and that's what was protecting me from feeling that
fear of abandonment. And for me, especially people
who are anxiously attached, I've been sprinkling this and talking
about it slightly more is it triggers this pre verbal wound
of no one is coming. And This is why if they pull
away, if they don't text you back as much or consistently as
they typically do, it can really trigger deep terror.
People are like, Oh my God, I feel irrational.
I feel crazy. But it's coming from a very,
very young part, from like zero to three years old that was
suppressed. And so of course now it's
getting re triggered. And like for me, that looked
like my partner at the time, like was taking all this space
and I had a panic attack when at that point I was really working
on regulating myself. And I maybe would have a panic
attack maybe once a year. And it was very out of the norm
for me. But it was just this cycle of me
perpetuating it. And it was that pre verbal
wound. And so when we can start to
learn how to feel safe in our body and learn to slowly titrate
that expression, right was too scary to say, hey, I'm feeling
really anxious. You could just even say I am
feeling some type of way. I'm going to need some space and
I'd love to come back in a little bit or I'm I'm feeling a
little bit anxious, but I'm OK. Like starting small and once
someone can start to like lovingly, just like help you
feel safe in that, that's when you'll feel safer to fully
express yourself when those things are coming up for you.
But that was a big thing that was really hard for me.
And I can notice when I'm triggered that can come up if
I'm not careful. The pre verbal wound.
Wow. Yeah, That is a really powerful
way to describe this kind of conditioning, this imprinting
that many of us experience growing up that can even happen
before we have like a conscious. Language.
Logical, linguistic understanding of what is
occurring. So I love that you named that
because I think for many of us this does go back to childhood.
Not for everyone, but you know, it can go back to some of our
earliest memories, and those aren't always memories that we
are conscious of. Trauma is stored in the body and
comes up as a reaction, not a memory.
That is a kind of paraphrasing of a quote from Besser Bessel
Vanderkolk, who wrote The Body Keeps the Score.
You know, trauma comes back as a reaction, not a memory.
So your body will tell you the ways in which you have
experienced trauma or been wounded without having someone
to help you Co regulate in a tune through and into that
experience. And that can get triggered in a
romantic partnership when someone does pull away or
doesn't ask for space and just takes it or switches up their
energy. Like some of this can happen in
early stages of dating. And you know, a lot of what
we're talking about too is communication.
Like whether you're just starting to see someone or
you've been in a relationship for a while, learning to open up
and talk about your feelings is essential so you don't abandoned
yourself. And the more you abandoned
yourself, the more you're going to anticipate that somebody else
will abandoned you because you're projecting that fear
outwards. You're already doing it to
yourself. So why wouldn't somebody else do
that? And that plays a big role here
too. Whether it's them holding back
or you holding back, someone's got to bring the security to the
table. You can't both just hold back
and expect that the relationship is going to get healthier and
more secure. Somebody has to open up, and
it's often times in the relationship coming to the brink
where you're opening up about how you feel and you're worried
that you're going to push them away or they're going to leave.
That you see actually that they stayed with it and they've been
hoping that you've been wanting to open up or that you will open
up and then you can actually deepen the connection from
there. But a lot of it does come back
to communication I. Think yes, it definitely comes
back to communication and I want to like piggyback onto that pre
verbal wound a little bit and like talk about it a little bit
more. I don't hear it talk about
talked about enough. And so for me, what this looked
like when that previous acts I was discussing him and I were
long distance. I just remember like my heart
was just straight up on fire and I knew, oh, he's just going back
to Oklahoma. Like I'm going to see him in a
month. But to my body and my brain, it
felt like he died or he went through a breakup.
I'm like, why is my brain feeling this way when he's
literally alive and he's texting me and he's telling me that he
loves me. And it was very, very
terrifying. And no amount of logic or
regulation tools were soothing it because it was pre verbal.
And so that pre verbal wound needs like that Co regulation
because it's this zero to three-year old if you think
about it. And so doing things like
rocking, putting on soothing lullabies, it's ultimately like
your body is in this panic terror.
And also, that's why Co regulation or a therapist, your
coach can be deeply, deeply healing and even just having
someone, whether it's your partner or a friend or
something, just like even holding your hands and just be
like, I'm with you, I'm here. And also like, if you're
noticing that come up, we need to also practice being in our
adult bodies because when we're anxiously attached, when we're
fearing abandonment, we're not coming from our true adult self.
We're stuck in those younger parts.
So when you can consistently practice being in your adult
body, this could be in such small ways, like, OK, I notice I
feel really anchored and in my adult body when I'm working out
at the gym, I see how strong I am.
Maybe I'm really proud and of myself because I went on this
podcast or I got this promotion at work.
In that moment, I felt in my true adult self.
And so when we can anchor into those moments and pay attention
to them each and every day, you're showing your body.
Hey, I am the adult self now. I am my own anchor.
I can learn how to self soothe and it's a consistent practice.
And when you practice this enough Times Now when your
trigger, it's going to be much smaller and you're going to be
able to come back into your adult self and you're not going
to be so flooded and overwhelmed by these anxious parts that feel
like they're taking over. Very very well said.
A lot of truth there in terms of Co regulation.
A lot of times I describe it as kind of writing over the pain of
the past through new experiences.
You gather new data, you show your nervous system, your body,
that you can be safe, that you are in control, that you're not
at the mercy of everybody else around you, that you're no
longer that trapped child who is at the mercy of their parents or
caregivers. And a lot of the distance that
you described hits so deeply at home with my experiences, like I
was in a long distance relationship for a year with
someone and it echoed the long distance relationship that I had
with my mom growing up. I lived in Maryland, she lived
in Florida. And I went from seeing her two
to three times a month to two to three times a year at the age of
8 when she moved. And you know, you really do
revert back to that, the age when you first experience that
kind of pain and you're left alone in it.
That's what is traumatizing about it.
It's not the pain itself, it's being left alone with it.
So if you can re experience that, if you can revert back to
that state and hold space for that version of you and for that
pain and allow it to be there and in some ways to be expressed
and to come to the surface, then that's a part of it.
It's also proving to yourself now that you do have a choice.
You have autonomy, you have power.
And. All of those things are deeply,
deeply healing. I do want to ask about the
nervous system a little bit more because that's central to the
work that I do. I know we're aligned, you know,
philosophically in this because we talked about some of this on
your show. But what's happening in the
nervous system when we keep repeating the pattern of dating
someone emotionally unavailable, like someone who just.
Won't commit or really isn't looking for the kind of
relationship that we're looking for.
In other words, with people who are wrong for us.
What's happening in the nervous system?
In the nervous system, actually, this is a fabulous question.
What's happening in the nervous system is it's looking for the
familiar. So the nervous system, we might
think if I'm dating someone emotionally unavailable, that's
wrong, that's a mistake. But like I mentioned earlier
about neuroception, it's looking for the familiar.
Our inner child is also looking to put an ending on our
childhood trauma through a similar experience, just like
how Chris mentioned and just like in my experiences.
And so it's like our brain and our nervous system is looking
for that familiar experience so it can time stamp it and say
this time is different. And now because this emotionally
unavailable person loves me, that proves that I'm lovable and
enough. So our nervous system is
actually looking for safety when it's looking toward this
emotionally unavailable person. And I also wrote a post about
this around chasing. Chasing gets a really bad rap
and consciously it's a habit that we don't want.
But from a nervous system level, chasing is literally just
showing, hey, I do not have enough safety internally, so I
need to find it externally. I'm dependent on that
emotionally unavailable person because I can't do that for
myself. So we're dependent on that other
person. And so that's really what's
happening in the nervous system. And I just really like to
reiterate that it's literally not your fault if you've been in
this same exact pattern. But once we learn how to get
into our adult body, anchor back into that, then we can re parent
those young parts of us that didn't get the love safety, Co
regulation and attunement. And we can then become that
securely adult, adult and securely attached parent that
this younger part of us never received.
Then what happens is we are no longer longer attracted to these
emotion unavailable partners. We start to feel literally
repulsed by them. It's it your body will scream at
you. And even for me, for example,
think I went on a date, this one date like around last year, I he
was 15 minutes late. I mean, whatever it happens.
But as soon as I saw him, I'm like, something feels off in my
body. And then I remember we were at
this coffee shop and we were just sitting talking.
And I look up for just a second and he goes, oh, do you think
that guy is cute? Like he was threatened and
jealous and was showing that. And he was opening up about his
mental health and he was saying just like a lot of projections
on to me. And it just like did not feel
good. And he kept stating that he was
afraid that he was making mistakes.
He was afraid that he just that he wasn't going to get a second
date with me. And it was just like really
repulsive. Like I could feel him and his
energy. And it was just like, no, it was
just all of it was giving very emotionally unavailable to me
and what I was sensing. And a lot of these patterns just
really made my body feel repulsed.
And I told him as soon as the day ended, hey, I just don't
think this is a good fit. Like wishing the best for you,
but that's an example of how like our neuroception will
switch after we're doing this work because I have worked a lot
on my fear of abandonment. But before then I would have
been like, oh, he can change. Maybe if I get I'm a great
therapist, maybe with the coaching tools that I share, he
can use them and heal. But no, I was like, I just don't
think this is a good fit. And my body told me first.
That point right there, that part, listen to your body.
You know, obviously you were picking up on some of the
insecurity and the anxiety that this person was experiencing.
And while this isn't meant, you know, to put that person on
blast or to be a judgment or anything like that, of course,
this is about assessing fit for you And after the work that
you've done and also doing this work professionally, like I can
imagine picking up on that is a big turn off.
Like, you know, you want someone stable.
You want to also be able to separate your work life from
your personal and your romantic life.
You know, you're already talking to people in your sessions and
what not about a lot of these same themes.
So you don't then want to play that role in your romantic
relationship too. So the more work you do on
yourself, the more you do become unattracted to this kind of
stuff. And there is, I think, and I do
want to unpack this a little bit more, but there is this period,
I think where you're in the in between.
You're realizing that you don't want to repeat the pattern.
You don't want to keep dating emotionally unavailable people,
but you also don't yet find the emotional availability
attractive or you're not turned on by someone who is readily,
you know, putting themselves out there and being vulnerable and
expressing that they want a relationship And consistent,
like, let's talk about that period because I'm sure many
people listening to this and watching can relate to that,
right? And many of them might even be
in that space, the in between of like, I know I don't want to
repeat what I've done. And I also might find some of
this boring. Can you talk about that a little
more? Yes, absolutely.
That is such a great statement in question because a lot of
people don't talk enough about that.
They just talk about, oh, I was in this toxic relationship and
now I'm in this healthy 1. But it's a big shift for your
nervous system though, right? Going back to the neuroception,
your nervous system is going to find those unavailable people as
safe, magnetic. You're going to have this
irresistible, Yep, you're going to have this irresistible hole,
right? And then with the safe and
healthy ones, they're going to feel boring.
So what we want to do is we want to start to help our nervous
system to feel safe in those things.
So like I talked about earlier and what Chris and I were
discussing, OK, expressing ourselves, how can we start to
slowly share just a little bit more?
Maybe we start to practice this with our friends, with our
community, with our Co workers, just wherever that's
appropriate, right? Sharing a little bit more about
ourselves and expressing those parts of us.
And then also going back to that nervous system regulation, if
we're in survival, our body is wired for that and it starts to
think that that is what we need. So what we want to do is we want
to help our body feel safe in the calmness, feel safe in
gratitude, in opening up our heart.
As we do that more and more, it allows our heart to expand.
It allows our body to feel even 1% more safe in that what we
need to do is like dissolve that resistance.
And even something I utilize is called brain spots spotting.
And I have a free master class on this.
It's like the pull toward emotionally unavailable partners
and then processing that and then looking at a different spot
that helps you to feel safe and healthy love and your adult
self. So one of the somatic modalities
I'm trained in is called brain spotting.
And so brain spotting ultimately helps you to locate where your
trauma memories are stored in your body and helps you to
process them. And it does that through your
visual field. So where you look effects how
your nervous system feels. So in this master class, I guide
people to find a spot in their room where they feel that
magnetic, intoxicating, chaotic pull toward this emotionally
unavailable person. And then we process on that.
And then we go back to OK, a time where I felt proud and
capable and safe in my adult body.
So then we're going back and forth between those two.
And then as you consistently are doing that in this practice, it
shows your body, hey, I actually want to stay at the adult self
spot. I'm not actually attracted or
want to keep going to this chaotic pull because my body is
now registering as this is safe. And we need to do that enough
times, helping our body to feel safe in expansion in those
positive emotions in gratitude. And when I started to work on
that pre verbal wound, my heart was able to open up much more
because even before that gratitude, it was something I
couldn't really tap into. Even just being grateful
day-to-day was just very difficult.
I felt even tension in my heart when positive or joyful things
were happening. And so as you, as I healed that
pre verbal wound that told me it wasn't safe and started to show
my body, hey, it's safe to be in gratitude.
It's safe to be in these expansive emotions.
It's safe to be in my adult body.
That's when I still see for opening up more and sharing more
of myself. I hope that answered your
question. Yeah, it certainly did.
Yeah, I've, I've never heard of brain spotting before.
This is so interesting. Like I feel like I want to run
to my browser here and look that up.
I love what you're talking about though, and it definitely
dovetails with things that I talk about here on the show and
in my work about rewiring and that repetition being so
important. You have to show the body
specifically that the sensation of stability and peace and calm
is okay for you to experience, and to be able to access that
and normalize it to the system is very, very important.
Just because many of us learn to operate on all cylinders or all
gears all the time, we actually learn through trauma to almost
thrive under stress. And this is where things like
PTSD and CPTSD can come into the picture.
You know that stress is playing a role in what feels familiar to
you. And part of the butterflies that
we might get with someone or that magnetism that you
absolutely named earlier is rooted in this.
The body becomes stressed, but we're mistaking that for safety
because it has become such a familiar operating state for us.
Sometimes I almost look at this like a program or like software
that your body, the hardware is running and if you want to have
a different outcome, you need to update the software.
And part of updating the software means that you have to
retrain the system to reorient towards actual safety and
stability. And I think that's what you're
talking about when you talk about brain spotting.
Did I get that right? You got it.
You got it 100% Yeah. It's, it's helping those safe
and peaceful feelings feel OK in your body.
And it's like also being like, OK, I can open my heart.
I can also feel those happy gratitude joy states as well.
And listen, stress is incredibly addictive.
It's physiologically addictive. And so it can really trigger
that when you're with these emotionally unavailable
partners. And that has happened for myself
too. Like I grew up with both my
parents were very emotionally unavailable.
My dad is a narcissist and my brother has autism.
And so I was the parentified child.
I learned that safety and the rug can be pulled out underneath
me at any point in time. And so for me, it was a lot of
deconditioning. And it's something that I
consistently practice every day is my my regulation tools is
opening up my heart more and more and more because it's not
something like just like with the gym or I go to the gym once
and I'm going to be shredded. Absolutely not.
You want to continuously show your body, Hey, it's safe to be
here and adding on with the butterflies and kind of goes
into your other question. A lot of people are looking for
this spark, but really that's your attachment trauma getting
reactivated. Like even if you have a very
strong like sexual attraction to someone, like you're like, I
want to have babies with them, I want to get married, I want to
have sex with them right now. The first like when you see
them, that is literally your attachment trauma getting
activated. And that's what happened in my
previous relationship, one of my previous relationships.
And Woo is, is that the truth? Mm hmm.
Yeah, no that. So like beware.
Of that, that people are seeking out at the end of needing no
more of the book I write that if you take nothing else away from
the book to let it be this, that you can't look for love based on
butterflies or sparks or chemistry.
There's a lot of different names for this, but that you want to
look for the things that actually you didn't have.
The stability, the safety, the consistency, the peace, the
mundanity of it. You want boring.
If you've been through enough experiences of traumatic stress,
you don't need more stress. You don't need more
inconsistency. You don't need more of the
roller coaster. You've already been on that ride
again and again and you know where it goes.
It is a loop. I mean, the roller coaster is an
apartment analogy for this. You're going to go through the
ride again and again. It will have a similar outcome
because you're chasing someone who cannot or will not meet the
kind of emotional depth that you actually need in order to heal
the pattern. So that is a big part of this.
I also think for folks when they're in that interstitial
phase that I mentioned earlier of almost holding both the
attraction to the unavailability and then trying to reach for
becoming attracted to availability, and you're holding
both of those things and you're in in between.
There is a point at which you're going to have to make an active
choice to reach for one over the other.
And it's going to feel uncomfortable no matter how much
conditioning or unlearning or retraining you do with your
system. And I worked with a client a
couple of years ago who exhibit this, exhibits this directly,
and we went through the coaching program.
She had been single for six years.
Like, really, really looking for her partner, watching all of her
girlfriends around her get married, have kids, you know,
being the bridesmaid and the person on The Bachelorette and
standing up there at the altar next to the person getting
married. And just with each time feeling
less and less worthy of it, Like it would never happen for her.
And towards the end of our work, she went on a date with someone
that she normally wouldn't have even given a chance.
And they actually ended up having sex on the first date.
And then she came to me and she was like, I don't know.
I don't know if I'm really feeling this.
And I'm like, well, let's just square this away.
You had sex with this person. You're clearly attracted to them
physically. No.
And she's like, yeah, of course. And so I started digging deeper
with her, like, OK, well, what is it?
What is it about this person that you're not sure of?
He doesn't drive the kind of car that I thought my partner would.
He's not as tall. He doesn't have the broad
shoulders. You know, a lot of these surface
level things started coming up. And I'm like, well, obviously
this didn't matter, you know, when you were on the date and we
didn't talk about this in terms of things that were important to
you when we were working through needs and values in the coaching
program. So I pushed her and I said, you
know what? I'm going to encourage you to
give this person a chance. It's OK if you're a little bit
apprehensive or you have doubt. You don't need to be certain
about someone when you're dating them, especially very early on.
Like the whole purpose is to get to know them and just ask, do I
want to go on another date with them?
So she did. And then she went on another day
and another date. And as she did, she still had
the apprehension and the fear and the doubt.
But over time, she also started feeling more comfortable and
safer, and she had more experiences of that stability.
And I just encouraged her to talk to him about how she was
feeling. Like, tell him that you're
afraid. Tell him that you haven't ever
dated someone like him and that's scary to you.
Share it and see how he responds.
And every time he was able to hold space for her.
And it was beautiful to witness how she was able to let her
guard down and really let some of that safety in.
It did not happen all at once. It was a slow accumulation over
the course of months. But six months later, they had
said, I love you. They were talking about moving
in with one another. And Fast forward a couple of
years later, they're married. They've been married for over a
year now. And you know, she is so grateful
that she stuck it out and stayed in there because if she hadn't,
she would have rolled out someone who has been so deeply
healing for her. But you better bet she had a lot
of experiences of doubt and worry and anxiety and fear.
And I just want people watching and listening to this to
understand that those things are going to come up as you're
learning how to let safety in and to embrace this stability
that someone can offer you. And it's not the presence of
those things that indicates whether or not someone is good
for you. You're allowed to experience
those things and see over time that, wow, they really can be
the kind of partner that I never thought I could have.
She stopped. She stepped out of the role of
self sabotaging and into the role of just exploring and being
curious. And I thought that that was so
beautiful to witness. Wow, Chris, that is so
beautiful. And I just love that because of
course the nervous system is going to freak out.
Not because you're doing anything wrong, because it's
uncertain. It's different.
And also, as you continue doing this work, you will naturally be
repulsed by the opposite of emotionally unavailable or
narcissistic people. Like your body will not allow
it. But you know, at first it might
feel a little uncomfortable. It's completely new, but that
does not mean that you shouldn't give it a chance.
And that just gives a beautiful example.
And even like with clients, because it's like they can feel
so uncomfortable in that safety and feeling bored.
It's like titrating that slowly on your own without a
relationship before that, you know, even like for me, I would
start with because I was very busy, busy, busy, Go, go, go to
avoid what was happening in my heart, in my body.
Just starting with, OK, can I just sit in silence for one
minute and then maybe in a month I or a few weeks, I can go to
two minutes and then slowly titrating that feeling safer
just being with my thoughts, being with my body.
And it's like just slowly showing her body, Hey, I was in
this for a minute and I didn't die.
I, I went On this date and I didn't die.
And it's like, that's also a big protector part and defense
mechanism to like fault find like how she did it.
That was really her nervous system trying to stay in the
familiar. Very well said.
Yes. And it's it's interesting to
name that because when we're in it, it just feels like what an
ick like this is such a turn off.
I don't, I don't know if I want to go on another date with this
person. And look, you know, I'm not here
to tell anyone to continue dating someone that they just
don't feel anything with. But if you listen back to the
story, you can hear how she had sex with him on the first date.
Like, obviously there was something there.
And, you know, all of the things that she brought up were not
things that had ever been brought up in our work prior to
that. Like, we had had probably 10 to
15 sessions together. And none of those qualities were
ever, ever named. That is the only reason why I
encouraged her to stick it out, because it appeared to me as if
she was trying to wiggle her way out of this.
And the only way we were going to find out if this person could
really be the kind of partner that she might need would be to
stick it out. And to to see how he responded
to her feelings when she shared them, to not hold them in, but
to allow for them to be expressed like we talked about
earlier. And then just to see like, does
this person have the capability of holding space for my doubt
and my fear and my worry? And if he hadn't of had that
capability, then maybe the outcome would have been
different. But he was able to say, you know
what, I get that. Like I've been there.
I want you to know you can always come to me and tell me
how you're feeling. And what an important and
beautiful experience for her to go through because that was
writing over some of the pain of the past that she experienced
with her own father who was not emotionally available.
And she had dated the person with the nice car and the broad
shoulders and the beautiful head of hair and, you know, the
swagger and the money and all of those surface level things.
And so I was able to say, like, is that really the path that you
want to go down again? Are are you going to do that
again and let this person who has repeatedly shown up for you
go, are you willing to release that person to maybe be with
somebody else in the hopes of finding someone that has the car
and the job and the money and the more vain aspects of what
you might want in a partnership? The ironic part is now that
they're married, he has the job, has the car, is in a much better
place than he was previously. So that's also why I was like,
look, you know, people can lose their jobs, they can lose
everything. Like you don't want to pick a
partner based on that, but very, very interesting to witness
there. Hmm, Yeah, how beautiful.
And yeah, I know you talked a lot about this also in the
beginning. It's like we need to show our
nervous system proof that the past is over, this is different
now, and having those disconfirming experiences are
deeply healing. We need to do the drama healing
and nervous system regulation and all the things right, but we
need to also show our body that this is different.
Amen to that. I will say working with a
professional I think helped her tremendously.
I think she would have left if she had been left to her own
devices. I, I was able to be a person
that she could trust when she did not trust herself.
And that's something that a professional can do for you if
you're not able to really trust your own gut instincts.
So whether that's a therapist or a coach or even like a really
close friend, recognize that someone else can help you to see
this and work through those feelings.
And you might need support in order to get there.
But she did make the choice. She kept going on the dates.
She trusted in exploring, and she brought a lot of curiosity
and compassion to the table. She worked through her fear.
She shared it like this was not easy for her to do, but she kept
showing up. She kept giving it her all.
And it's not like she did this perfectly or anything.
You know, there were moments where she didn't respond to him
for a couple days. And he's like, hey, you know,
are we still on for Thursday night?
And she's like, yes, yes, yes. You know, So look, you don't
have to do any of this perfectly, but it is important
to recognize this is a choice that you will have to make.
You will have to at some point do the uncertain thing, do the
thing that is opposite of what you're accustomed to doing,
Reach for the mundane, calm, boring person and maybe stick it
out to see if your feelings might develop for them after
you're able to experience emotional security and safety
with this person. And if it doesn't develop, then
then obviously I don't want you to remain in a loveless or what
seemingly feels like empty relationship.
But if you can get there at least a little bit in terms of
developing attraction from the emotional connection, then yes,
yeah, that might be someone to continue exploring.
Yeah, it's huge. It, like Chris said, it's not
about forcing someone to be with someone healthy or stable.
That's also coming from a trauma response, right?
Like forcing yourself. But it's like that emotional
connection, that physical connection was still there for
her, right? Like she was able to develop it
and feel safer in it. And yeah, it's just, it's huge.
It's so huge. And it's like when we can take
that leap of faith and be like, OK, what if I can trust this
situation? What if I can trust myself that
I can have my own back no matter what happens?
Because the opposite of anxiety is not calm, it's self trust.
Yes, Amen to that. I say that all the time.
As we wind down today's episode, I wanted to do just some rapid
fire questions here. If someone's in the midst of
this pattern, what's one thing that you would tell them to do
immediately right off the bat? Vegas toning.
So Vegas toning, we essentially have something called our vagus
nerve and it controls whether or not our fight or flight system
gets turned on, whether or not we're anxious.
And so when we've been exposed and experienced chronic stress
or trauma, it stops working as efficiently.
So then it gets stuck on. That's where this hyper
vigilance and chronic anxiety is stemming from.
So when we can learn to stimulate this nerve nerve
through vagus toning exercises, it helps our body to send those
safety signals not just to our brain, but to our whole body,
because our vagus nerve controls so much.
It controls our organs, it controls our breathing, it
controls our immunity, so many things.
And so that's one thing. If there's one thing to start
with, it would be to do that. Vagal toning everyone.
Yes, things like cold exposure, breath work, meditation, they
can all help with this body movement.
Even there are eye exercises, eye movement exercises you can
do to stimulate the vagus nerve. So there's plenty of
opportunities to explore there for folks.
What is 1 misconception about anxious attachment you wish more
people understood? A misconception about anxious
attachment is you are not needy. I hate the statement like
they're too needy or they're too clingy.
It's like when we look at it, if someone is stuck in the desert
for a month with no food and no water, if someone comes up to
them and they give them junk food, they're going to be like,
Oh my God, thank you so much you saved my fucking life.
Like I was starving and about to die.
And so with anxious attachment and if you have a lot of needs,
that does not make you needy. It's just literally a result of
you not getting your needs met. And there's no such thing as
needy. There's no such thing.
So I just really wish that people could remove that from
their vocabulary. And I know a lot of people
listening have maybe been called that, and it's super wrong.
And it's just also just not true.
It's like, can we just have compassion for this inner child
that's been starved of love for decades?
I'm snapping. Yeah.
I mean, look, that's why I named the podcast, the book, The
Coaching program, All Needy No More because you are never
needy. And we have to stop using that
phrasing. Needy No more doesn't mean that
you're needy. It means you never work to begin
with. And you shouldn't be using that
to describe emotional needs, which are all relative because
you're relating to somebody else.
So this is also rooted in someone's capability or
willingness to show up and meet those needs.
Yes 100%. OK, what's a daily practice or
reminder you personally use to stay grounded?
I would say for me, OK, can I say 2?
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Awesome. So right now I'm living in
Colombia. I'm a digital nomad and Chris
and I were talking a little bit about this on on the podcast and
about his move and all the amazing things.
And in Colombia there's this like amazing hammock and it like
rocks and it's outside on our balcony and it's like, I love
it. I love it so much.
That's like one thing. A second thing is I do different
somatic exercises to help me feel into my adult body and then
also remembering different times going back to what I said
earlier, like anchoring back into my adult self.
You know, when I do that and practice that, I feel so much
more grounded in my body. So those are like 2 top things
that I really, really love to do that are so imperative for me.
I love that. I mean, that hammock sounds
incredible. That rocking motion is just,
it's really soothing to the body and it does help to reset the
nervous system. I just want to name that for
folks who might not know that inherently.
Last question here, what's 1 sentence you hope listeners
really take away from this episode?
One sentence You cannot change yourself through shame.
You can only change yourself through love.
Meaning you can't shame yourself into changing yourself.
The only thing you can do. It sounds so cheesy, but the
only thing you can do is learn how to love yourself because
that's how we rewire our nervous system in our body and what
we're attracted to and just honestly feel better in
ourselves and our bodies, in the world, in our relationships.
Yeah, you can't hate yourself into a version of yourself that
you love. It doesn't work like that.
It's many people try to do that because they learned through
conditioning and modeling, usually by parents, that if they
pressure themselves, if they criticize themselves, they
almost treat themselves like a workhorse, like do do run more
and more, that they'll finally get where they want to go.
And this speaks to something really important too, which is
that healing is not always about doing.
It's also about learning to be with yourself and to accept who
you are as a result of the experiences that you have been
through, to accept yourself as a foundation that you can build
upon for your evolution. You can't reach for a new
version of you without fully embracing who you are in this
moment now. So, yeah, I echo that sentiment
fully. All right, Valerie, beautiful
discussion today. Lots of really poignant,
powerful stuff here. How can people find you in any
resources that you want to share before we depart?
Yes, thank you so much. So like I talked about earlier,
I have a free master class all about breaking your attraction
to emotion unavailable partners that guides you through adult
self anchoring, guides you through the brain spotting
practice and also guides you through tapping to heal that
fear of abandonment and repair that inner child.
So kind of everything that we went over in practice, it's so I
would love for people to try it out.
It's been very, very transformational for the people
and folks who've joined. And then you can find me on
Instagram. It's Heal with Val, HEAL with
Val. And then also, of course, my
podcast that Chris was on. I would love for you guys to
listen to that episode I did with Chris.
It's the Anxiety Recovery podcast with Valerie Rubin.
And Chris, just thank you so much for having me on.
It was so fun and I'd love to dive deep into this.
You're very welcome. Definitely check out those
resources from Val. Val, thank you so much again.
Thank you.