1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,040 Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,080 The show is about to begin. James, let's put on a show. 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:13,400 Excited for this? Welcome to another exciting 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,040 episode of Golden Nuggets with me, your host Sylvia El Dowie. 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,320 Today I'm joined by none other than James Evans, who is the 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,480 Chief Financial Officer at Holo, which is one of the fastest 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,160 growing prop techs in the MENA region. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,080 Welcome to the show, James. Pleasure. 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:33,280 Now James is not only ACFO finance expert, but also deeply 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,200 passionate about the MENA startup ecosystem. 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,720 So you've got over a decade of experience in early stage 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,320 company management, fundraising, financial strategy, and you're 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,040 uniquely positioned to offer us some golden Nuggets on what it 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:54,400 takes to scale a start up and navigate the complexities of 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,160 this evolving proptech landscape. 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,960 So to kick things off, the question I ask every proptech 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,120 startup is what problem was Hollow solving for? 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:06,640 Yeah. I mean, thank you for the intro. 19 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,000 So hello solves transparency in the home buying process. 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,040 That's first and foremost what we're trying to solve. 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,600 Sort of historically, if you've gone out to get a mortgage or 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,640 you're going out to buy a home, the process of going to the 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,200 individual banks, going to four or five banks, getting all the 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,840 rates, understanding all the rates has been an extremely 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,960 complicated process and it has next to no transparency. 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,560 So first and foremost, Hurlow solves that. 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,160 If it's all of the rates that you're eligible for, all of the 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,360 bank products you're eligible for in front of you in a nice 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,760 easy digital platform. And then on top of that, we've 30 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,120 started to techify the home buying process, that actual 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,400 interaction with agents, interaction with properties. 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,280 So when we think holo, it's really can we digitize, can we 33 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,600 create more transparency in the home buying process? 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,240 And just generally, can we make it a better experience for 35 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,400 people so. It's holo, not holo. 36 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,280 Yeah. So it stands for home loans. 37 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,920 It's a holo. I didn't even think about what 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,640 it could have meant, but that makes sense. 39 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,560 Everyone asks and no one ever gets it right. 40 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,560 I think Michael, the the founder of Holo was saying that 41 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,360 historically they probably asked 100 people and one got it right. 42 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,800 I can imagine, no, I would. I would have never pieced the 43 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,200 two together. OK, now the Proptex space is 44 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,480 extremely competitive, especially here in the MENA 45 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,680 region. What would you say sets Holo 46 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,600 apart from the rest? Yeah. 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,200 I mean, great question to ask the CFO of the business. 48 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,800 What really sets us apart is unit economics. 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,880 So what you see generally in the VC space is you have these 50 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,880 companies that grow accelerated rates, they burn accelerated 51 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,280 rates and a lot of them will exist on negative or extremely 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,440 slim margins. Holo has been built a bit more 53 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,240 intentionally than that. So the business has been around 54 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,080 for just over four years now. And from the very start, it was 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,840 focused on how do you create a profitable business out of this 56 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,920 space and how do you create a business that scales well, 57 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,480 that's operationally efficient, that has unit economic 58 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,800 efficiency. And still to this day, even at 59 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,040 the scale we're at, it's still such a huge focus. 60 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,120 But we've never really been sort of pushy on let's try and burn a 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,640 bunch of money and, and try and grow as much as we can. 62 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,960 It's always focused on how do we get those VC level growth, but 63 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,520 how do we do it in a sustainable manner? 64 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,480 And I think the, the other thing that really sets us apart is, is 65 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,320 that MENA focus, right? When you look at prop tech in 66 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,640 this region, there's always Europe, there's always the US, 67 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:33,240 which are super attractive markets, right? 68 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Huge amounts of capital, huge Tams as well in those markets. 69 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,520 TAMS is a total addressable market. 70 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Yeah, it's basically how much revenue could you earn if you 71 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,760 had every customer in the market. 72 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,760 So when we look at Europe and the US, it's obviously it's 73 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,880 huge, OK, brilliant, but it's also hyper competitive spaces. 74 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,480 So yeah, we're just very focused on staying in MENA, being in 75 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,960 MENA company, the founders have been out here for a long time. 76 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,000 They want to contribute to the region, they want to help with 77 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,280 that growth. But when you sort of combine 78 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,080 those two things, it was how do we build a great business in the 79 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,320 UAE that can support itself and then look for geographic 80 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,760 expansion rather than rush into geographic expansion chasing big 81 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,160 top lines. We said no, let's build a good 82 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,720 sustainable business in the UAE that is growing at a very fast 83 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,760 pace. And let's have that platform to 84 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,840 then go after new markets. But let's focus on MENA. 85 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,080 Let's not go chase the huge tickets elsewhere because 86 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,600 although the guys come from the UK, they understand that 87 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,360 mortgage market extremely well. It just doesn't make sense, 88 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,120 right? You build a geographic business. 89 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Why go and compete with Habito in Europe or compete with Rocket 90 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,040 Mortgage in the US when we can stay in an uncompetitive 91 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,920 environment? So where's next, Saudi? 92 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,720 Yeah, I mean, or. Egypt. 93 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,480 We're officially not allowed to say, but it's it's definitely a 94 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,520 big, big neighbour. OK. 95 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:04,560 And Speaking of expansion and scaling, what would you say are 96 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,280 the biggest obstacles when it comes to scaling? 97 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,800 A prop tech or a start up even? Yeah. 98 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,280 I mean, I think to not talk about the operational side, 99 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:17,200 right, That's a, that's a headache in its own right. 100 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,040 Can you find the right team? Can you find a good office? 101 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,600 Do you have a good GTM? The big stands for go to market 102 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,520 so. Sorry, like us in Startup Talk. 103 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,400 Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm, I'm getting a 104 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,000 habit too often of using acronyms. 105 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,480 But when I look at it financially, it's sort of how do 106 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,160 you balance top line growth along with creating sustainable 107 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,520 companies. So when you're VC backed, you 108 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,040 always get that push from VCs to chase top line or chase growth 109 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,720 in any manner, be that headcount growth in the number of 110 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,680 employees or getting bigger GM VS and bigger top lines. 111 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,760 And it's sort of, but ignore the rest of it, right? 112 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,120 Ignore everything below that. Line just grow by any. 113 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,960 Means grow. But the reality is that doesn't 114 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,600 work for a business, right? You need to concentrate on the 115 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,440 bottom line. You need to have a path to be a 116 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,400 profitable business. You can't just be someone who 117 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360 loses money for 10 years, right? We're not all Uber. 118 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,640 We don't all get that grace. So how do you balance that, 119 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,080 right? And how do you make sure that 120 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,520 you're 1, enabling the business to go after that growth and 121 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,400 you're allocating spend in the correct way. 122 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,840 But at the same time, you're not spending like crazy, you're not 123 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:22,040 blowing your runway on some big marketing campaign or a brand 124 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,480 new office or whatever it may be. 125 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,560 So really it's that, it's how do I enable the business to grow, 126 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,080 but at the same time maintain that financial integrity of the 127 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,200 business that quite honestly, that sort of argument and the, 128 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,120 the conversations that exist around that is, is 90% of my 129 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,200 day. It's just talking to people and 130 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,040 saying, no, you can't spend $1,000,000 on a marketing 131 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,680 campaign. But yeah, you can spend 200, 132 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,880 right? And and finding that balance and 133 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,520 trying to push the team to do a little bit more with a little 134 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,120 bit less. And there is like chita chatter 135 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,160 about startups in the region focusing more on fundraising 136 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,720 rather than actually solving problems. 137 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:04,480 What's your take on that? Yeah, I think as a region within 138 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,080 startups, we've been very focused on the optics. 139 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,080 We're great at PR, great at raising money and we're great at 140 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,240 doing that side of the business, right, where everything looks 141 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,040 brilliant from the outside. But it for me it raises the 142 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,400 question of why do you need to raise that much money, right. 143 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,200 And I say this for well known that I'm someone whose primary 144 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,040 job is to go out and raise money for startups. 145 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,800 But when I look at our space in particular, right when you look 146 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,120 at prop tech, unless you're in the rent now pay later space or 147 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,080 in massive capital infrastructure, you don't need a 148 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,880 huge amount of money to raise the business. 149 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,960 And it's not that I'm saying people shouldn't have raised 150 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,000 that much because I get it from the founder side. 151 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,720 Money is on the table. Take it while it's available. 152 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,720 But if you're building a property platform, why do you 153 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,800 need thirty, $40 million? All that's going to do is 154 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,520 encourage you to spend thirty, $40 million, right? 155 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,520 And it's going to influence your decision making. 156 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,520 I think startups would be better focused sort of saying, OK, let 157 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,960 me raise a $15 million Series A, let me build off that. 158 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:03,080 Let me get to a Series B where I then raise maybe 30-40 because, 159 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,320 one, I'm now in enough markets to justify that kind of spend. 160 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,640 Two, I've probably got a very good handle on my unit 161 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,920 economics. I know where to spend capital. 162 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,800 I know what works. So I think it's great. 163 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,720 It historically attracted a lot of interest in the ecosystem, 164 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,280 but now we really need to be focused on building good 165 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,160 businesses. And I think rather than saying, 166 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,720 if someone fundraises, you're going to see a LinkedIn 167 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,600 announcement about it and people are going to go crazy and you're 168 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,600 going to see 300 LinkedIn comments on it releases. 169 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,320 But if someone signs a massive partnership deal, that's going 170 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,120 to be huge for their business, you're going to see 10 comments. 171 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 It's going to be 9 of their friends and their mom because 172 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,320 they're the ones who've heard about it. 173 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,960 But that's the stuff we need to be celebrating in the ecosystem, 174 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,920 right? This business is becoming 175 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,200 genuine businesses, not a business that's great at 176 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,120 fundraising. You don't start a prop tech to 177 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,480 be good at fundraising. You start a prop tech to make 178 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:53,960 innovation in the property business. 179 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,160 So we need to be better at celebrating that side of it. 180 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,040 As much fun as it is to celebrate huge raises and say, 181 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,440 great, someone believed in my business enough to give me $50 182 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:04,760 million. Great. 183 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,040 But what are you going to do with the 50 million? 184 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,480 Every time you raise money, the founders get diluted. 185 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:11,320 They earn a little bit less of the business. 186 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,800 If you have an employee share program, they earn a little bit 187 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,040 less of the business every time. So that potential exit for you 188 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,720 as a founder gets smaller every time you you raise, obviously 189 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,640 you're getting higher valuations and your exit becomes more 190 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,560 likely. But you need to marry that, 191 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:26,880 right? How much of this business do you 192 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,080 want to earn at the end of the day? 193 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,600 And how much do you want to earn at an exit? 194 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,480 And on top of that, it's just, I always come back to the point of 195 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,400 if you have $30 million, you're going to spend $30 million. 196 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,040 If you have $15 million, you're going to spend $15 million. 197 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,480 And the reality is for an early stage company, the difference 198 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,760 between 15 and 30 in terms of actual business success is very 199 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,640 minimal. All that it means is someone who 200 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,120 raised the smaller amount is going to achieve this kind of 201 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,360 number with $1,000,000 marketing campaign. 202 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:55,920 You're going to achieve the same number with two and you just 203 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,480 spent two because you had it. So I think we do need to focus 204 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,240 on that more. And I think you're starting to 205 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,880 see a shift away from that. Like we're seeing more founders 206 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,080 now, bootstrap companies for longer. 207 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,120 You're starting to see people look for different ways. 208 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,440 They're not going after that massive hyper growth, which is 209 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,240 brilliant. I think there's a huge place for 210 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,120 ecosystems to evolve and more of those lifestyle businesses to 211 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,840 come up. But if you are a genuine company 212 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,240 that requires VC backing, if you're going after aggressive 213 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,200 growth, then yeah, go out and raise the money. 214 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Raise the right amount. Don't go out and raise huge 215 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,320 amounts of money just because you can or because you have 216 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,200 those VC connections and you can get it done. 217 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,800 No. Raise the amount that's correct 218 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,720 for the business. Do you think it's more of a kind 219 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,360 of puppet show, like for the next round, you know, press 220 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,280 release picture of the founders we raised X. 221 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,760 For sure is like it's to put you on the map, right, Because one 222 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,280 of the things you you see in Mina is we have a funding gap at 223 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,400 sort of series B plus, right? Mina VC is a great seed stages 224 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Series A. There's no one really right in 225 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,600 those massive B checks. You're seeing more of it now, 226 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,160 but it's historically, it's not massively existed. 227 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,200 So for startups to get to that next stage, they had to attract 228 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,680 the European investors, they had to attract the US investors. 229 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,000 And you kind of did that with your fundraising announcement. 230 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:12,960 But there's other ways to do that. 231 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,680 You can get those European investors in sooner. 232 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,240 You can do it with the outreach, You can constantly update them. 233 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,000 And I know from experience that if you go out to a European 234 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,800 investor and you say, hey, like our last round, we raised $30 235 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,200 million. Or if I get to 1 and say, hey, 236 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,640 we're a profitable business. Post series AI know which of 237 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,840 those businesses is easier to get a second check for. 238 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,800 Like the profitable business is, is so easy to raise and you're 239 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,640 in a really comfortable position where you're not worried about 240 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,280 the next raise because, OK, if we don't raise or we don't get 241 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,000 the valuation we want, that's great. 242 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,560 We, we're just going to walk away from this and we're going 243 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:46,160 to continue running the business. 244 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,080 Whereas if you're in that you've raised that huge amount of 245 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,640 money, your burn has got super high, you're spending $1,000,000 246 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,760 a month on whatever. Now you have to raise right? 247 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,840 And you're pushed into that corner of being like, I have to 248 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,680 have to raise now or the business shuts down. 249 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,960 Whereas if you've potentially done a small around expenses 250 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,120 don't get as big, perhaps you get profitability. 251 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,840 OK, then it's your choice. And the amount of leverage that 252 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,400 you can have in VC conversations in that scenario is brilliant. 253 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,880 If I'm now hello and I'm talking to an investor and they say, you 254 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,040 know, like your valuations here and we had it here, cool. 255 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:20,440 I'm going to walk away from the round. 256 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,560 I'm going to go keep running the business because we can pay for 257 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:24,960 ourselves. And if you think we need more 258 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,080 time to grow into that valuation, brilliant. 259 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,160 We have all the time in the world. 260 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,360 So we're going to go away. We're going to grow into that 261 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,800 valuation. But at the same time, this might 262 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,160 be the best price you ever get the business at. 263 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,960 So next time we come to you for fundraising, we've just 264 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,280 continued being a profitable business. 265 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,680 We've continued growing. The price is significantly 266 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:42,840 higher now, which means the founders again get to retain 267 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,680 more of their equity. And then that exit view gets so 268 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,200 much better. So that's why I say I think 269 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,120 fundraising has a place. It's hugely important for the 270 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,120 ecosystem, especially to get companies off the ground to 271 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,720 access that hyper growth, right. You can't bootstrap hyper 272 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,720 growth, it's impossible, but raise the right amount. 273 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,400 You know, I mean, I, I speak to a lot of brokerage CEOs, I speak 274 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,080 to a lot of prop tech startup Co founders, Co founders and I, I 275 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,560 like looking from the outside in. 276 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:15,120 There's way more collaboration and cooperation that goes on the 277 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,800 brokerage side rather than the startup side. 278 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,880 I think there's still a bit of kind of, you know, not secrecy, 279 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,480 but you might have your cousin start up or you know, some the 280 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,760 founders that you know, but there's very little 281 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,360 collaboration or in that space. Like where do you draw the line 282 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,160 between collaboration and competition? 283 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,520 So for me, I, I think there needs to be more of it, right? 284 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,720 The one that people are always scared of. 285 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,000 If you talk very, very early stage, people are scared to tell 286 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,600 people their start up idea because they're scared that 287 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,760 person's going to go and build it. 288 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,480 Everyone has an idea. One in 100 actually execute and 289 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,040 go and do their idea. So don't even be worried about 290 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,200 that, that that's just noise. Talk to people about your idea, 291 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:57,520 get that feedback. It's going to improve the 292 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,760 business. You're going to shop it better. 293 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,000 I think the reason there's people that don't even want to 294 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,640 send their decks, like don't know if someone might see all my 295 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,520 yeah. It's crazy to me that I had a 296 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,080 starter fan that asked me if he should send an NDA before 297 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,080 sending a deck and I'm like you do that that V CS never opening 298 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,240 that e-mail. So don't worry about sending the 299 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,440 deck just send the NDA because you've you've closed that 300 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,600 relationship already. And also if you're in the VC 301 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,680 space, if you send your deck, assume the moment you send it 302 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,160 everyone in the market has seen it. 303 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,240 Like down to your grandma. She has seen it because V CS 304 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,360 they will send it around but collaboration? 305 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,440 They're like the Daily Mail, aren't. 306 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,480 They, they are. And The thing is, you're not 307 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,920 putting anything in a deck that's so proprietary. 308 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,640 If you are change your deck, why You're putting proprietary 309 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,800 information in a pitch deck. But it's like, if someone can 310 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,600 see your pitch deck and then execute your idea better, then 311 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:46,960 you're probably not that good, right? 312 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,120 Like either the idea is not great, it's not defensible, or 313 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,480 you're not a great founder if you can't defend against that. 314 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,280 The collaboration between startups, I think part of it 315 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,080 comes from capital availability. People are kind of worried, oh, 316 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,080 if that guy does really well, I'm raises, there's no money 317 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,480 left for me. I guys, you're talking about 318 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,680 $100 million funds and $1.00 checks. 319 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,640 You know, there is money for people here, especially for good 320 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,480 ideas. And if you have that more 321 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,920 collaborative ecosystem, we all win. 322 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,080 So you look at somewhere like Silicon Valley, right, which is 323 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,240 historically the home of startups, huge amount of 324 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,520 collaboration. You look at something like the 325 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,840 PayPal mafia where everyone worked in one company, they will 326 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,400 spread out, go start their own companies. 327 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:29,640 All of those people are still talking to each other, They're 328 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,360 still getting ideas from each other, and they're still 329 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,840 improving. So if there's someone who's in 330 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,600 direct competition with you, yeah, obviously don't talk to 331 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,080 them. But people are so against the 332 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,600 idea of getting ideas from other people. 333 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,240 Like I work in the project space. 334 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,160 Before that, I've worked in HR tech, I've worked in fintech. 335 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,200 Even within prop tech, I'll still talk to guys that I know 336 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,160 from fintech and HR tech because they still have ideas, right? 337 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,560 There's ACFO that I'm very close with who works in an HR tech 338 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,320 company. He and I can have that sharing 339 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,800 of ideas because we're not really competing for the same 340 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,320 capital. We're not competing in the same 341 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,320 space. And honestly, without those sort 342 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,800 of connections, I would be a significantly worse CFO. 343 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,720 So I think we need more of it because it's tough being a 344 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,880 founder. It's really tough, especially if 345 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,880 you're not one of those founders who comes in hyper connected or 346 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,440 has those connections to the VC network or whatever it may be. 347 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,440 We need to support each other because the better the ecosystem 348 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,400 does, the more capital that comes to the ecosystem, the more 349 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,600 good companies come, the more talent there is. 350 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,800 This is how we grow. They can't just be 1 winner in 351 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,960 the ecosystem, which is at times what it feels like people are 352 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,760 trying to do. Like they want to be the sole 353 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,760 winner in the startup space and it's like, great, but it's going 354 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,880 to be a terrible ecosystem if that happens. 355 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,520 And and that's the, that's the thing that I think is missing is 356 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,080 maybe perhaps feedback on VCs like, you know, some that are 357 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,200 showing all this interest and then at the last second they 358 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,960 pull out like we need to tell this ecosystem about this 359 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,840 player, you know, that maybe they're not working in the right 360 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,960 way. So I think holding them 361 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,800 accountable as well that we are a network, we will feedback to 362 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,400 each other when you don't come through on your promises. 363 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,040 Oh, for sure. I mean, I think there's a lot of 364 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,680 VCs that maybe don't do it the right way just in terms of how 365 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,079 they treat founders and sort of how they treat deals. 366 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,920 That gets around to some extent. But again, I think because of 367 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,200 the limited number of VCs you have here, people are always 368 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,160 going to still talk to them. I think the more VCs that get 369 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,080 established in the region, people can get a bit more 370 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,920 selective with that stuff. And I do agree, if you shared, 371 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,360 more people would get held accountable. 372 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,400 VCs would have to change how they approach start-ups. 373 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,120 Make make the start-ups sign Ndas. 374 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,280 Yeah. And it's, it's funny, Ricks, 375 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,800 whenever I talk to founders, they're always like talking 376 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,920 about like how they're treated by VCs or things like that. 377 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,560 And you've always got to remind them like they're investing in 378 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,360 your business. You are the one selling a very 379 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,640 good business here, provided it is a good business. 380 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,800 You should feel that way. Like the not only are you trying 381 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:10,960 to get these people to invest in you, but they're trying to court 382 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,640 you as well for the opportunity to invest in your company. 383 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,720 And I think now at the current stage of MENA, that power 384 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,040 imbalance isn't quite equal. It's still a bit more in the the 385 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,600 VCs hands, whereas you look maybe globally more mature 386 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,320 startup ecosystems where you have more good companies. 387 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,280 They do hold a bit more leverage in that regard. 388 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,320 But definitely, I mean, there's a few VCs that that I maybe tell 389 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,440 people not to speak to. But again, if you have to get 390 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,320 capital, you have to do the rounds, you have to speak to 391 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,600 everyone. And you tapped into talent pool. 392 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,640 Do you think we're quite limited in this region when it comes to 393 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,560 a lack of tech talent? You know, when we compared to 394 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,600 Silicon Valley. Or yeah, I think we have 395 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,360 historically struggled for talent. 396 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,200 And if you look at the more established regions, like what 397 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,880 created that initial talent pool, it was the universities 398 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,160 that are around, right? So if you're in Silicon Valley, 399 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,640 you have places like Stanford, MIT isn't super far away. 400 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,840 So you have that tech talent. We historically haven't been a 401 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,120 tech region, right? I mean even the region as a 402 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:19,440 whole is still fairly young and the start up ecosystem here is 403 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,440 even younger than that. So what you saw was we had great 404 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,400 business founders, great problem founders, but you didn't have 405 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,080 the tech. We're seeing more of that come 406 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,000 now. And I think that's just capital 407 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,840 availability. Like there's a lot of start-ups 408 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,560 here being funded. There's a lot of capital 409 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,400 available in the region. So you are beginning to attract 410 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,640 that outsourced talent. And also we're sort of in the 411 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,240 first full cycle now where you're starting to see exits. 412 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,080 So you had Kareem, you had Suit, you had Swivel, you had a hammy 413 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,680 Tabby is obviously doing phenomenal. 414 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,520 What you're going to see out of those exits is the people who 415 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,080 worked in those funds go out, start their own businesses, 416 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,040 which is great because now you don't have one company that has 417 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,800 five really talented people. You have 5 businesses that have 418 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,080 five really talented founders. And that will continue to 419 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,080 attract more talent. I think the the governments out 420 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,040 here have done a lot, especially on the education system of 421 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,080 getting sort of software engineering more into schools, 422 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,920 more into the universities. People see it as more of a 423 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,920 career path now. So I think the talent will come. 424 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,280 We just have to be patient with it. 425 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,040 There is some supremely talented people in the region. 426 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,200 There is a couple of tech hubs around. 427 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,800 So you have places like Egypt, Jordan has phenomenal tech 428 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,920 talent, but it's it's going to take time. 429 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,480 This is part of a maturing ecosystem, right? 430 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,880 Is talent probably comes last to most of those regions. 431 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,400 And what can mean, as startups do, to attract global attention? 432 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,720 Whether it's for talent, whether it's for investment, whether 433 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,120 it's just for eyeballs. I mean, be loud about the 434 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:50,520 achievements, right? Scream about the achievements. 435 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,160 Not just the fundraising. Yeah, scream about what you're 436 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,680 doing. Highlight your people, right? 437 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,480 Most, most tech talent out there, one, they want to get 438 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,840 paid well, they want to be on ESOP programs. 439 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,280 So me and founders stop being scared of ESOP programs. 440 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,480 Do ESOP for all, let people feel like they have a piece of the 441 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,680 business. And three, shout about your 442 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,000 talent, right. If you have an AI engineer who 443 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,640 builds something phenomenal in your business, post the guy on 444 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,880 LinkedIn, talk about the products he's building, talk 445 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,360 about what he's doing. And then finally, don't be 446 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,920 scared to to hire a young into what may be senior roles. 447 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,800 I mean, let's be frank, at my age, I wouldn't be hired into a 448 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,560 CFO at visa in a startup. I get that opportunity because 449 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,320 someone gave me that opportunity, right. 450 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,320 And what you find is if you hire those people who are maybe one 451 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,440 step before they're ready, that's great. 452 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,440 They're going to learn the part to be ready, But you're going to 453 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,160 get someone who's so hungry, who's going to go the extra mile 454 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,240 and you give that opportunity to talent. 455 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,800 So if you look in the US, it's hard to move up in startups 456 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,480 because it, it's a flooded market, right? 457 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,000 But here you can go to that, maybe that lead engineer in the 458 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,080 US and say, hey, come over to Mina. 459 00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:59,080 One is tax free. 2 is a great place to live seven months of 460 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,520 the year. The other five are a bit hot, 461 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,320 but and also I'll make you head of engineering. 462 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,280 Take that risk on someone, take that risk on talent, and then 463 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,960 celebrate the talent. What's missing from the meaner 464 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,040 start up ecosystem? And this could be a couple of 465 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,280 things. I mean, first and foremost, I 466 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,320 think exits. So we haven't had enough exits 467 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,000 to get through like a full cycle yet. 468 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,200 I think that will be a big change for the region. 469 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,680 When you start to get to that stage where you have a multiple 470 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,040 companies going through exits per year, you see that recycling 471 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,960 of talent, you see that recycling of capital. 472 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,920 I think the Kareem story is always very interesting in terms 473 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,080 of how many millionaires were created from Kareem and what did 474 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,320 they go and do with that money. A lot of it got put into the 475 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,800 Pakistani fintech ecosystem. A lot of it got put into the 476 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,160 fintech ecosystem here and that's been brilliant. 477 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,920 And that's why you've seen fintech a bit more accelerated 478 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,600 out here is because it got that early capital and it got those 479 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,360 early exits. And and that's it. 480 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:57,760 We've been talking about Kareem and Souk exit for the past 4-5 481 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,840 years. Like hello, who else? 482 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,840 That's what I mean. Who else I think. 483 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,880 Swivel yeah. And I think people can talk 484 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,800 about swivel and say it's a bad exit and the list didn't go well 485 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,400 and whatever it may be, but still good for the ecosystem to 486 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,320 and I I grew up here, right. So as a a meaner kid, that's a 487 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,280 proud moment. Like one of us listed on the 488 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,200 NASDAQ, right? OK, maybe it didn't go perfect, 489 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,160 but it's still a cool moment. We need more of that. 490 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,320 We need more growth stage funding. 491 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,960 So you need more firms that are going to fund Series B's, that 492 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,240 are going to fund Series C's and. 493 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,080 You never see those press releases do. 494 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,520 No, I mean tabby. That's kind of it. 495 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,320 And then you need those firms that understand how to take you 496 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,360 to a list, how to go through an acquisition exit, because that 497 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:39,880 knowledge is not there in startups. 498 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,880 Unless you're going out and hiring CF OS who have an M and A 499 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,000 background, it just doesn't exist. 500 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,480 So a lot of founders will get stuck at that point. 501 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,080 And then I think a bit more transparency in terms of what 502 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,360 we're doing out here, what are we building because that helps 503 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,160 attract talent, brings more talent to the region and helps 504 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,520 us build more stuff. So it's a couple of things. 505 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,800 I think it will come with time. I don't think it's something 506 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,400 that you can massively accelerate. 507 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,840 I mean, exits take as long as exits take, but I think once we 508 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,160 get through that first full cycle of an ecosystem, the next 509 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,760 time around you'll see something very different. 510 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,720 I mean, even now, the amount of early stage companies getting 511 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,160 established, the amount of new founders being created per year, 512 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,000 we're at the sort of start of this where we're going through a 513 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,440 second cycle now. And I think each time you go 514 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,480 through that, it gets better. You're getting repeat founders 515 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,000 which know how to do the game a little bit better as well. 516 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,680 And there's. Always like claims that 517 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,000 start-ups here succeed because of their connections rather than 518 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,040 so much innovation. What would your take on that be? 519 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,200 100% because I think. You look at MENA as a region, 520 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,040 we're fairly relationship driven region anyway. 521 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,880 I mean this is across like real estate, oil and gas, whatever it 522 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,400 may be. It's a relationship driven 523 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,280 ecosystem. So if you are a founder that 524 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:01,160 comes into it with those connections, life is a bit 525 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,560 easier. You see a number of founders who 526 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,680 are XVC. Obviously it's very easy to 527 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,080 raise money when you're XVC, right? 528 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,120 Like you go talk to your old colleagues, they put you around. 529 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,840 And what you generally see in startups here, especially in 530 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,760 funding, is if you know 1 VC well, it's very easy to get 531 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,480 introduced to a bunch of others. And when you're fundraising for 532 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,480 a startup, it is, it is a numbers game. 533 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,000 You're going to pitch to 199, they're going to say no. 534 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,000 So just having that ability to get 100 funds or 100 people to 535 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,400 look at your deck is a win in itself, which is why you do get 536 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,520 those network successful startups. 537 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,000 And I think for founders who don't have that network, it's 538 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,400 extremely difficult because not only are you trying to convince 539 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,320 someone to invest in the business, first and foremost, 540 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,960 you're trying to convince someone to take your call, which 541 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,000 is difficult enough. So there is some sense I think 542 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,080 we'll move away from that. The region is moving away from 543 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,520 that. As it becomes more successful, 544 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,160 it becomes a more sustaining economy. 545 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,560 You kind of move away from relationship driven economies. 546 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,520 So it'll get better, but it definitely still exists. 547 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,360 Yeah. And do you? 548 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,480 Think there's enough? I mean, I have my opinion. 549 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,240 I think the answer is no, but enough kind of financial and 550 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,680 strategic support for early stage start-ups in the region. 551 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,080 In the US they've got loads of accelerators and incubators and 552 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,920 are we doing enough? We are. 553 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,760 Enough. I mean enough is, is a funny 554 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,360 question. There a lot, Yeah. 555 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:27,920 Are we doing stuff? Yes. 556 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,680 Is it always good quality? No. 557 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,120 Is it enough? Probably not. 558 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,080 I think the other thing we really have in that area that's 559 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,280 a bit flawed is there's no VC here who's going to invest in a 560 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,600 company pre revenue, right. So you can have your product 561 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,320 built, but if you have no revenue yet, yeah, no VC is 562 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,920 touching it. So you've got to go to Angel. 563 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Investors, yeah, or syndicates, yeah, if you don't have the. 564 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,120 Network, it's impossible, right? If you don't know sort of a high 565 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:55,040 net worth person or a way into those sort of networks, you're 566 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,960 never raising money and then you have to bootstrap for a really 567 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,520 long time. And what you find with a lot of 568 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,240 founders is bootstrapping is one it's expensive for your in 569 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,880 personal life. It's very tiring trying to run a 570 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,880 company on a 10,000 Dairam a month budget. 571 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,240 So a lot of people give up. I think one of the best things 572 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,520 we could do is make more capital available to early stage 573 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,640 founders. I think when you look at like 574 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,760 Antler, who's recently come to the region, their program of 575 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,080 sort of founder matching and and giving checks very early, pre 576 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,400 revenue, even pre product in some stage is really great for 577 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,480 the ecosystem because you give that sort of boost and you give 578 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,160 that start to founders. But we need to do more early. 579 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,960 I mean, the amount of seed stage funds out here who invest in 580 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000 what would be a Series A in the US, like the bar for MENA 581 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,960 startups is so much higher. For us to just get a seed 582 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,040 investment, we have to achieve the same traction that US Series 583 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,240 A gets. And for us to raise a Series A, 584 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,680 we have to be at AUS Series B level. 585 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,920 So we need more capital early and it doesn't have to be 586 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,280 massive checks, be a fund, start a fund, go give out $100,000 587 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:58,760 checks. It's going to be game changing 588 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,240 for some of these early stage founders. 589 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,600 But people are so scared to take that risk on pre revenue. 590 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,920 And it's like that's VC, it's risky. 591 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,040 You're going to invest in 10 companies and one is going to 592 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,840 make it. You have to be OK with that. 593 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,160 What do you think? Is the biggest mistake MENA 594 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,360 start-ups make when it comes to pitching VCs or Angel investors 595 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,000 underselling the MENA? Market. 596 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:23,320 So when you look at population size across MENA include sort of 597 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,280 Egypt, North Africa, Turkey and that it's as big as the US in 598 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,680 terms of buying power, population, available money for 599 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,120 from consumers, it is as big or if not bigger than the US. 600 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,640 So I think a lot of times when start-ups go and pitch to funds, 601 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,400 they feel like they have to just pitch MENA as a launching pad 602 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,120 for me to go to the US or go to Europe. 603 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,960 It's like, no, there's a huge market here and it's a massively 604 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,720 underserved, underserved market when it comes to tech as well. 605 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,600 So make sure that you're sizing that correctly when you're 606 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,520 talking about the opportunities to VCs. 607 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,320 You don't have to run off somewhere else, stay in MENA. 608 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,680 It's a monstrous market and the reality is a lot of VTS are 609 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,600 going to look at you and say, well, how do you go from Dubai 610 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,080 to New York? That doesn't make any sense. 611 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,520 What does make sense is Dubai to Riyadh. 612 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,560 OK, culture is different, but there's enough similarities 613 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,680 there that it makes sense. And then you go from Riyadh to 614 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,840 Bahrain, or you go to Amman or Egypt, wherever it may be, but 615 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,000 you're staying within the same cultural space. 616 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400 You're getting access to the same level of Tams that US firms 617 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,760 do, but you're not selling that crazy dream that we have to go 618 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,880 to the US to be massive. And I think if more start-ups 619 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680 did that, more global VCs would start to take note. 620 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,400 They would do their own work on how big is the MENA market. 621 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,240 And once you start looking at that, it's huge. 622 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,720 And on top of that, if you, for example, the business we're in 623 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,280 with mortgages, there's not a huge amount of banks here. 624 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,720 So the opportunity to be in partnership with all the banks 625 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,120 is very straightforward. If we want to go to Europe, 626 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,400 we're trying to partner with 50 banks in every European country. 627 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,920 That's a huge, huge amount of work to get that done. 628 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,640 Whereas we can go to somewhere like Saudi, there's 13 banks, we 629 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,480 can have 13 conversations. So just stop underselling MENA 630 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,040 as a market because there is enough here for you. 631 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,080 You don't have to sell that big dream. 632 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,920 Great, get here, get into your BC and MENA, then raise AD and 633 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,400 go to Europe right? Or or wait and get bought. 634 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,920 Out by yeah AUS company or a European company. 635 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,480 Rocket Mortgage if you. Want to come by us? 636 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,600 But yeah, I agree you. And when you look at it in that 637 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,880 lens as well, most European and US startups are not going to 638 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,960 come to MENA. They're scared of the political 639 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,600 risk. They're scared of the regulation 640 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,520 risk. What you will see in a few years 641 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,840 is a lot of them buy their way into MENA, but they're not going 642 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,160 to want to come and buy a company that owns the UE market. 643 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,960 They're going to want to buy someone who owns the MENA 644 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,920 market, right? Because you're talking about a 645 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,920 company that's coming from owning the European market. 646 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,760 They don't want to come and buy one country. 647 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,600 They want to come and buy MENA. So you can get to a very hefty 648 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,360 exit just from MENA. You don't have to be everywhere 649 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,880 else in the world. Stay here. 650 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,320 We need more innovation. That's really great advice. 651 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,520 So lock down MENA, do you see a disconnect between the the 652 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,480 amount of capital that's being raised in Mina and the actual 653 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,320 market potential of some of these start-ups in some? 654 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,120 Areas and I think there's something we touched on before 655 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,360 as well, it's not so much the total capital raise, but it's 656 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,120 the timing of you raising that. So if you're building deep 657 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,040 infrastructure tech or you're building AI or something like 658 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,520 that, yes, you need a lot of money. 659 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,400 So if computing power is hugely expensive for that stuff and you 660 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,880 need that budget to be able to spend it. 661 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,640 But when you're in our prop tech space, should we raise $50 662 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,760 million? Yes, But we should probably do 663 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,600 it over the next three, 4-5 years. 664 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,240 And getting that capital in tranches is going to allow us to 665 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,320 access that market better. Whereas if we went out and 666 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,440 raised a lot today, the expectations put on us is OK, 667 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,200 now you have to go and capture the whole market tomorrow, which 668 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800 is intimidating. Let's space out those raises a 669 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,080 bit more. The Tam is definitely big enough 670 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520 to justify these big capital raises, but not all at once, 671 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,000 right. Like, let's spread this out. 672 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,920 Let's let's build a bit more slowly. 673 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,440 Well, not slowly, Bill, slowly is probably the wrong word, but 674 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,280 let's build more deliberately. Intentionally. 675 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,080 Yeah, intentionally. Let's use the money 676 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,560 intentionally build like that. But I don't think we're we've 677 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,800 ever had like a stupidly large fundraise in MENA. 678 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,600 When you look at some of the AI stuff in Europe, in the USI mean 679 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,880 that feels bubbly, but I don't think we're there yet. 680 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,320 But I think there is people in market who've probably raised a 681 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,280 little bit too much too early. There was some series as out 682 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,960 here that looked more like a Series B in terms of capital 683 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,640 raise. And I think people need to 684 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,800 understand the expectations go up the more money you raise. 685 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,480 So I think we have a justifiable market size for the capital, but 686 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,240 just space it out a bit how? Many years should you leave 687 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,120 between each round I mean. Ideally, you would raise one 688 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,160 round, right? In a perfect world, you'd raise 689 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,760 one round, get profitability, continue to grow. 690 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,240 What I always target with a fundraise is whenever we raise, 691 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,000 we have to account for this money to last 24 to 36 months 692 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,040 without our revenue growing. So that's the way we plan it, 693 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,320 right? We say if our revenue stays at 694 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,480 this level for the next 36 months, do we survive off this 695 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,960 cash? If the answer is yes, then our 696 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,480 budgeting is probably correct. You'll probably end up raising 697 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,760 sooner than that. If you're growing very quickly, 698 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,040 capitalize on growth. Don't raise money when you're 699 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,800 desperate for money. If you're running out of money 700 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,680 next week, you should have been raising 12 months ago and 701 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,560 capitalize on key points in the business. 702 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,680 So if you've hit key revenue milestones, key geographic 703 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,960 expansion milestone, raise at those points. 704 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,160 Don't raise because you're running out of money because VCs 705 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,160 will outweigh your runway. So they will wait until the week 706 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,840 before you go out of money and then come back and say well, now 707 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720 the valuation is 10 million and it was 100,000,006 months ago. 708 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,040 So really be intentional about it. 709 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,840 Make sure you know what you're raising for. 710 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,920 Make sure you know what you're spending that money on. 711 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,440 Don't get that 10 million or $20 million hit in your bank account 712 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,159 and then trying to decide where to spend it. 713 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:12,480 Pre plan that. Have your budget. 714 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,840 Don't stick to it rigidly. We are startups, things change, 715 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:20,040 but have a good idea of where that money is going and you've. 716 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,360 You've kind of, you've highlighted the mistake that me 717 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,800 and the startups are making. What would you say? 718 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,320 What would your advice be on what to prioritize when pitching 719 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:35,159 to VCs and Angel investors so. I mean, for me it goes sort of 720 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,320 two ways and it depends on the type of founder you are because 721 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,639 you get two types of founders, right? 722 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,960 You get problem founders, the guys who've lived the problem, 723 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,320 who maybe dealt with it offline and you get tech founders. 724 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,199 If you're a tech founder, pitcher, tech, tell them it's 725 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:48,840 the best in the world. Go after that. 726 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,400 Make sure you're sort of sizing the market correctly. 727 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,560 That's what VCs want to see. They want to see, OK, at end 728 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,720 stage, how big could this be? If you're a problem founder, 729 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,240 focus on your experience, right? Even if that was offline. 730 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,280 So if you were, I can only take our example here. 731 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,840 Michael and Aaron were both offline mortgage brokers before 732 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,600 Holo. So when we pitch, it's not 733 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,720 coming from the sense of, OK, we've been running a mortgage 734 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:15,920 brokerage for five years. It's no, Michael and Aaron have 735 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600 been running mortgage brokerages for 35 years combined. 736 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,960 It's just the past five have been online and have been 737 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,960 digital. So it's understanding that 738 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,840 journey, converting it to a digital journey. 739 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,560 They are the right guys to do that because you have that 740 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,600 experience. So focus on strengths at 9 times 741 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,720 out of 10, it's going to be the experience of the founder. 742 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,520 And then as you scale through the stages, it becomes more 743 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,520 about the company, but early stages, 100% about the founder 744 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,880 size of market. And then I think the other one 745 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,640 that Mina startups kind of misses, talk about exits. 746 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,960 Contextualize where you think the company could exit. 747 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,440 Are you going to be acquired by a big international player? 748 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,160 Could you be acquired by a local player? 749 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,360 Is this a listing play or is this APE type play? 750 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,840 Where are you going with this business? 751 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,880 Have a good idea of that because you can begin to contextualize 752 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,560 the returns for VCs, right? If you say, you know what, 6 753 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,560 years from now, if we hit XYZ, we can be bought for this much. 754 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,680 We're currently valuing at this much, that's a 6X return for the 755 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,840 VC. Great, you've contextualize it. 756 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,200 Aim for like 10 to 20X on that return. 757 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,600 But if you contextualize that, it really helps the VCs and then 758 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,400 like starting with the end. In mind, yeah, because. 759 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,360 No VC is investing in a company because they want it to run 760 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920 forever and for you to pay them a dividend. 761 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,680 No, they're investing in a company because they want to 762 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,800 exit and they want within 10. Years, Yeah. 763 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,080 Fund Life. Cycles, right? 764 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,480 So focus on that. Focus on your experience. 765 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,320 I always tell people the easiest founder to be is a problem 766 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,080 founder. If you've experienced 767 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,320 significant problems in your life, you have a problem you 768 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,880 can't stop thinking about, start a company. 769 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,400 That's the right point to start it. 770 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,240 If you're being kept up at night by this idea, go out and start 771 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,560 the company. Do it in an offline manner. 772 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,840 You don't have to build all the tech in the world to do it. 773 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,680 Solve it with a Excel sheet and a phone call. 774 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,880 See if the idea works and then go with it. 775 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,800 Because once you've done that, you've proven you're a hustle 776 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,000 founder, You've proven you're a problem founder. 777 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,440 It gets significantly easier to raise money at that point. 778 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,480 And then you go after the tech stuff, OK. 779 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,360 And finally, where do you see the prop tech MENA startup 780 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,320 ecosystem in 1020 years time and where does Hollow fit in all of 781 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,680 that? Hopefully the. 782 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,400 Biggest our eventual vision is that when you think home buying 783 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,160 in MENA, you think holo. I think where I see, I mean the 784 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,120 MENA ecosystem will continue to grow no matter what happens. 785 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,000 But my genuine belief is that we found our niche with prop tech. 786 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,680 This historical context, right? When you look at the people who 787 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,080 are LP's, so the people who invest in VC funds, they have 788 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,760 partners. Yeah, they've. 789 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,200 Historically made their money through real estate. 790 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,320 This is a region that has made its money in real estate, be 791 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,360 that commercial, retail, rental, whatever it may be, and probably 792 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,720 even their family. Wealth, yeah, and it's a lot of 793 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:02,240 it is. Tied up in buildings and things 794 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,440 like that. So what you found now is not 795 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,960 only do you have people building great tech in prop tech, but you 796 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,280 have investors who truly understand the space. 797 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,040 They may not understand the tech side of it, but they do 798 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,160 understand the actual business of real estate. 799 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,680 So when I think 10 to 20 years from now and like this will 800 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,320 sound like hyperbole, but I truly think Mina could be the 801 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,520 hub for prop tech. It's Silicon Valley. 802 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,200 Yeah. I mean, who knows, Like you get 803 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,400 like Riad Valley and stuff like that. 804 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,000 Maybe that's the Silicon Valley of prop tech. 805 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,240 That's where I see us because we have historical knowledge of 806 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,520 this kind of industry. We have good, we have good tech 807 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,200 to build this stuff out. And what you see now is if you 808 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,240 look at Fintech and things like that, the stuff that we're 809 00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:47,840 building here in Fintech has been built in the US, has been 810 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,360 built in Europe. It's been solved. 811 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,040 And it's someone just replicating that and mean a bit 812 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,120 of localization. Great. 813 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,800 We need those products. It's super important. 814 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,600 We're seeing proprietary tech being built in Proptech out here 815 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,040 because it is in the DNA out here, right? 816 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,840 So this is something we understand so well. 817 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,360 So why can't we be the Silicon Valley of Proptech? 818 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:13,240 This is our niche, So I think that's where you'll see us. 819 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,040 I don't even think it's going to take 10 years. 820 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,520 I think 5 or 6 years from now you'll start seeing that. 821 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,040 You'll start seeing it being talked about. 822 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,840 Hopefully Holo is the top of the name, top of the list there. 823 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,600 But yeah, I think we can just really find our niche in prop 824 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,240 tech and be the place for it. Brilliant. 825 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,280 So. Exciting. 826 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,000 OK, All right. Well, thank you very much, 827 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,560 James. That was a nice little lesson in 828 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,240 on all the abbreviations, a nice kind of explanation of the 829 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:45,240 strategic side of tech startups, not just prop tech startups, 830 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,680 VCs, and really good advice for founders as well. 831 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,240 So thank you so much pleasure for being here. 832 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,360 I hope so. I like to help out the 833 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,600 ecosystem, like I said, being a kid, so I wanna see us flourish. 834 00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:59,000 Yeah. Pleasure being here. 835 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,200 If you have any questions. Just drop them in the comments. 836 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,160 But yeah, thank you very much. If you enjoyed that, like and 837 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,880 share with a founder or someone who's got an idea might might 838 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,880 enjoy it and subscribe for more golden Nuggets. 839 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,400 Thank you.