Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats.
The show's about to begin. Jack, let's put on a show.
Yeah, let's do it. Welcome to another episode of
Golden Nuggets with Sylvia El Dawi.
And today I'm joined by Jack Sellers, who is the founder and
CEO of Yellow Value and is quietly built a platform that's
calling BS on overpriced listings and fake bargains.
Jack, welcome to the show. Thank you.
Tell us about yourself and what you're building.
Sure. So yeah, I'm Jack, founder of
Yellow Value. I grew up in the region in
Bahrain, moved back to the UK, spent some time there and then
moved here during COVID and had set some money aside to buy a
flat. And I had a lot of agents
sending me properties and I had no way to sift through them.
And, you know, I didn't know the market.
So I built this tool for my, just to help myself because I'm
a coder. And yeah, it's just kind of
evolved from there. Sounds like a lot of effort to
to buy a property. I'm going to code something for
myself. Yeah, you're just you're, you're
a coder. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just,
it's something that I wanted for yourself and I and I knew I
could build it. So yeah, I was just too
intrigued by the problem, I'd say.
And and that is a question I ask every prop tech is what problem
are you solving for? The problem is it's very
difficult for the average person to come up with a mental model
of how much something should be worth.
We all have to do it when we're browsing through listings
subconsciously most of the time, but it isn't always obvious
based on all of the different factors that could influence the
price. If we're kind of focusing in on
one specific building or area and only looking at a very small
niche, then maybe we can do that.
But as soon as we broaden our search, it's very difficult for
us to continuously value things. And I think that's where you you
need machine learning models to, to do the heavy lifting for you.
Now the problem is is if you only ever look at sold prices,
then values would never increase or decrease.
If you're always going to base it on the last sale price.
What kind of algorithm do you use to work out what a property
is worth today? When I look at property prices,
I'm trying to make a prediction of the current market value.
I'm not trying to predict what's going to happen in the future.
The current market value is obviously influenced by previous
market value, but by previous sale prices.
And you're right, if if we only looked at previous prices and
and never budged, then the market would never go up.
So if something is happening to cause those prices to go up over
time and that is the natural kind of buying and selling
activity that happens in the market.
So, so yeah, there are going to be times where, you know, an
asking price is a little bit higher than, you know, what a
valuation model might say. And over time those, you know,
slight increases will lead to a market that goes up over time
and that will be reflected in the previous prices.
So, yeah, I think over time, the more information that we are
able to incorporate into these models, the more they'll be able
to anticipate that rising market trend.
And there's also the challenge, and I've got this experience
from valuing properties back in the UK.
Every seller and every landlord has a reason why they believe
their property is better than everybody else's.
And I'm guilty of this as well. Like when I looked at the
valuation of my property based on recent sales on the street, I
was like, no, but mine's far superior because XYZ.
How do you kind of manage sellers and and landlords
expectations because they will always believe that theirs is
worth hundreds of thousands more because of oh mine has a better
view or mine has been upgraded. How do you factor in?
I suppose you can't really because you don't know the
property inside. You can just base it off the
square footage and. Well, I had an interesting chat
with an agent once. I asked him, would you rather?
I said would you rather represent a buyer that had
$1,000,000 to spend? Would you rather represent the
seller that had an apartment worth $1,000,000?
And he said assuming the buyer was serious, definitely the
buyer because we know what the value of the $1,000,000 is
$1,000,000. But the guy with the apartment
that's worth $1,000,000 probably thinks it's worth 1 1/2.
And the challenge is trying to get him to bring his, you know,
expectations down and tools like yellow value actors.
Yeah, kind of like a, a reality check for everyone who owns a
property. And I think the more, the more
information that we can lay out, the more credibility it will
give. So for example, with views, like
everyone asks about views and renovations, how can how can you
know if my property's got a good view?
Or how can you know if my property's been renovated?
Well, if we see that the previous sale prices of that
particular property deviate from what the model thinks it should
be, then we can infer that either it has a great view or
it's being renovated. And that is a challenge that you
know that I suppose that's the role of real estate agents is to
manage that gap between sellers expectations and buyers
expectations. So how can agents be using
yellow value on a daily basis? I think, yeah, like you said, to
bridge the gap and I've and I've had agents interested in it
because, yeah, you, you get buyers that are looking for a
bargain. But in, in reality, the way the
Dubai market is right now and you know, it, maybe it'll slow
down, maybe it is slowing down. But you know, for the last,
let's call it three years, there's not really been any
bargains really. You, you're going to get what
you pay for. You know, if, if you're buying,
if you're buying a good property, you, you should be
happy to get the asking price. You know if if the asking price
is, you know, reasonable. Can you walk us through the
yellow value platform? Sure.
So when you go on the home page, it's just a regular user, you
don't have an account, anything like that.
It's set up so that you can look up any location and either the
unit number or the number of bedrooms.
And you'll then be taken to a page that has all the
information that we have about that property, historical sales
prices for that building or project, and then what our
models think is the current value of that property along
with the confidence level. I like that the confidence level
because you've got like medium high confidence or low
confidence. Talk us through those three
different different confidence levels.
Yeah, you need it because, you know, even with humans, if, if I
was to say to you what is, you know, some, some particular
villa in Emirates Hillsworth, it's very, very difficult.
You know, that villa could be completely different to all of
its neighbors, could be completely renovated inside.
Imagine that problem, you know, for, for computers as well.
It's, it's, it's exactly the same problem.
Now I believe that over time these models will be able to
interpret the data provided we have good data provided We
continue to add to the our data sources that those models over
time will be able to come up with better and better
estimates. But yeah, it's it's still, it's
still very difficult. Another thing that I like about
your website is you don't make people into their e-mail address
to get the valuation. So you can just play around and
have a nosey and see what your neighbour's properties worth or
other. Do you do you find a lot of
searches are just kind of speculative or?
Nosey, that was that was very important to me because, you
know, back with Zoopla, I think it's actually changed now where
they want you to have an account and they want to, you know, you
know, send you emails about your property and try and get you to
sell it and all of that. But back in the day, it was
just, you know, a tool for the public to use.
And, and yeah, you, you could just be nosy, but yeah, I wanted
to make a tool that you, you could, you know, use as much as
you wanted and not be hounded by agents.
Like if you, if you want, you know, an agent, then we can help
put you in touch with someone. We're, we're not agents, but you
know, we can help put you in touch with ones that we trust.
But it's important to me that people can use it and not feel
like they have to give away personal information.
So where do you draw the line with privacy and transparency?
Because in the UK you can if you know someone's address, you just
pay 4 lbs on the Land Registry website and you get the title,
deed, name and the price that they bought it for.
So where do you draw the line? Like how much information is
important and will that stop certain sales from happening
because the the buyer finds out how much the property was
purchased for two years ago? How does it influence people's
decisions? I think it's huge, you know, in
the long run, if, if Dubai wants to continue to become more
transparent, then people are going to have to become more
comfortable with that data being public.
Now, that doesn't mean that I'm going to be able to, you know,
look up who owns a property. You can't even really do that in
the UK very easily. But to know what a particular
property has sold for in the past, at the end of the day that
that is public information. You don't own that data.
Just because I buy a flat doesn't mean that I own all the
data about the flat. It's, you know, people have got
to get out of that way of thinking.
I think the Dubai government want to push transparency, but I
think they they're doing it in a slow and steady way.
We've gone up quite considerably in the JLL ranking.
So JLL have like an annual transparency, real estate
transparency index and I can't remember what we've got.
It was like in the 30s and now we're ranked in the 20s.
And I think the goal is to get into the top 10 most transparent
real estate market. So what data for us to be like
in the top 10? How much more data needs to be
out there? Well, honestly, you know, we're,
we're all hyper critical of what, you know, the current
state of the market and, and Dubai, because we live here, we
work here in this industry, we want it to be better.
But if we take a step back, you know, in terms of the region or
even the continent, honestly, Dubai, there's there's not many
contenders for more transparent real estate markets in Dubai.
I couldn't start yellow value anywhere else in the region
right now really. So Dubai is already way ahead of
the region, but to get on a par with the UK, Australia, Ireland,
you know, places like this, the main thing is making public the
transaction history for specific unit numbers and fillers.
And that's the one that's, you know, a little bit of a touchy
subject with some people, 'cause some people don't want their
friends and neighbors to know, you know, how much they, how
much they paid. Or what they're worth.
They might. They don't want people to be
able to calculate their net worth and there are a couple of
black holes which I feel are being filled in.
So DIFC is 1. What other data would you love
to? See, I think yeah, the same, the
same thing with rents rental contracts.
But I mean, yeah, that's the same issue as being able to
assign historical transactions and historical rental contracts
to specific unit numbers and villas.
Other than that, honestly, honestly, nothing really comes
to mind because even even based on what we have now, there's a
lot of data. Like it was enough for me to
start this company. So yeah, once, once that is, you
know, publicly available, I would be surprised if Dubai
didn't jump like if, if the next jump wasn't significantly bigger
than the last one. I'd love to see like 1 figure
that I'd love to see is a kind of comparison of initial listing
prices versus eventual sold prices.
That's a good one actually, that sort of information.
So if we if we and I don't think it would ever be totally public
because obviously it's owned by predominantly two companies and
I don't know why any of those would you know, make make that
data public. You you're talking about the
property portals. Yeah, yeah.
To to be able to have a complete history of asking prices and the
dates that those properties went onto the market or came off the
market and be able to map them onto real transaction prices,
that would be phenomenal. Yeah.
But I don't know if we'll ever. Fully get that it's one thing
that I always use to advise my sellers and landlords is because
the natural instinct is let's go on the market.
Let's hit the market at the highest price.
Let's see if we get any nibbles. You know, and actually for me, I
always advised against that because that first week of going
online or hitting the market is the most crucial.
And I don't know about you, but any, anybody that's looking
seriously will always filter by most recent rather than, you
know, OK, when you're shopping online, shoes, clothes, you
might sort by lowest price, highest price.
But when you're looking at real estate, you want to see the
freshest listings. So you're searching by most
recent. But if it's a new listing and
it's priced at the peak price, then let's see if we get a
nibble price. Then you miss out on nibbles.
My flat, for example, was purchased around 2:00 or so
years ago. And a few weeks ago I saw a flat
come onto the market that was exactly the same, exactly the
same layout, exactly the same view for like double the price.
And I know the market hasn't doubled in that time, but that,
that is me who, you know, is aware of the building, is aware
of what the prices should be and also, you know, owns a valuation
company and uses it. The average person doesn't
necessarily have that. So yeah, I guess, I guess that
person was hoping that they would get some nibbles and
predictably they didn't because they've since dropped the price,
but it's still way too high. And then actually what they've
done since then of these, they've they've dropped the
price and then they've got three separate brokers to try and sell
it. So yeah, it happens all the time
here. But I think over time, as tools
like yellow value are more used and people are more in the habit
of going to them, then that will definitely not.
It'll never stop, but it'll happen a lot less.
And that's quite a common thing to just keep chipping away at
the price until you get someone biting, but you end up then
getting a stale listing, should we say so?
How can yellow value help in that scenario?
I think the more people that use it, the more unacceptable it
will be for sellers to to do it in the first place.
Like there, there won't be that perception that they'll get any
nibbles. Like right now the maybe they
have like a 20% chance they're going to get a nibble or 10%
chance. If more people are using yellow
value that drops to like less than 1%.
Obviously those numbers are not exact, but yeah, it's that's the
case. So that's that's one side of it
is preventing the sellers from doing it in the first place.
Also, I actually spoke to the agent that listed the property
initially for double. Did you call them and?
Say like, I know I, I was very, you know, upfront with them.
I I, I told him, you know, I was just interested because it was
obviously such a high price. And he said, yeah, like I told,
I told my client that's way too high.
And they, they didn't listen if, if the agent had, you know, a
tool to, to go to the seller and be like, look, you know, we've
got a valuation report from Yellow Valley, for example, or
someone else. This, this shows you that your
property is not worth what it is.
The problem now is that to do evaluation valuations are very
expensive generally and they and they take some time.
So that's why we came up with a product for agents, which is
something in between just a automated estimate and a full
valuation. It's kind of like a like a mini
report that they can, they can give to their client and be
like, look, you know, you can put your flat on the market for
that amount, but nobody's going to buy it.
This is what it's worth, and This is why it's worth this.
And, and yeah, as as those reports and as these tools
become more publicly used, then I think the practice will cease.
And is there anyone that you feel would resist this kind of
level of transparency? Like could some agents not want
to use the data or developers or?
Sure. Yeah, I've noticed.
I've noticed a trend that because Dubai is so competitive
for agents, I've noticed a trend of agents starting to kind of
call themselves advisors rather than just simply agents.
And I think, and I think that makes sense.
And I think if that trend continues where they really are
just, you know, kind of presenting you with the data,
finding out what you want and then helping you, you know, pick
something based on your requirements rather than trying
to sell you a specific thing, then then, yeah, I think I think
those agents will welcome these tools.
It's the ones that are particularly, I would say,
trying to market to foreign investors that don't know the
market very well and are susceptible to, you know, flashy
marketing and brochures and stuff like that.
Those ones won't enjoy these tools.
But yeah, I'd say most agents probably do because if if these
tools help a buyer readjust their expectations or or vice
versa for a seller and help bridge the buyer seller divide,
then yeah, I think the tools will be welcomed.
And there's a lot of talk right now about the role of the real
estate agent because you know, there's a lot of exciting new
things coming up with they call it agentic AI, where AI robots
or bots or whatever are going to be doing a lot more of the agent
role. So it's it's not going to
eliminate the role of the real estate agent, but perhaps
potentially push the the job start of the real estate agent,
like maybe they'd only appear on a viewing, you know, so that's
the first time you actually get to speak or see that your real
estate agent is when you're. When you come to view, and
that's because there are so many more tools now to manage the
qualification process, help the buyer understand what their
budget can, but you know can get them and shortlist location,
shortlist in area, shortlist the type of property.
Do you find buyers are doing a lot of the ground work
themselves rather than relying on agents?
And do you see the role of the real estate agent evolving?
I think there's a tendency in prop tech to say, oh, you know,
we don't need agents or we can do without them.
I've never really felt that way because I feel like the the
start-ups that make that claim we're going to get rid of
agents, they kind of end up becoming.
Agents. Yeah.
So at the end of the day, like if there is some something or
someone, whether that's a human or AI that can help guide you
through, you know, the data get, you know, guide you through the
different areas, the different buildings, give you information
that you didn't previously have or help help you get, you know,
get the bits of information that you need to make a decision.
I, I don't see why that would go away.
I think you're, I think you're right.
I think it will be done more and more by AI, but I think that's
just everything, not just agents.
And I think agents would welcome that because they probably don't
so much enjoy, you know, doing all the homework for them.
And as you said, like, they kind of step in as advisors rather
than consultants. And not right there from the
beginning. But I do, I strongly believe
like the role of the real estate agent will never go extinct.
It is the biggest purchase unless you're buying yachts and
buildings and whatever else. But it is going to be the
biggest purchase you make in a lifetime.
You're going to need some hand holding through that for sure.
If all the robots mobilized and and assisted with the process,
you're still going to need the human touch.
Even me, I'm very comfortable looking at all the data myself,
you know, and I, I enjoy it, but I chose to have a, you know, a
buying agent represent me. Yeah, 'cause at the end of the
day, what it's, it's 2%. You know, the Dubai market has
gone up by more than that each year since.
So in, in the long run, doesn't make a difference.
But if it helps you find something that you actually
want, then that makes a huge difference.
So I'd like to know more about that choice you made because it
sounds like a conscious decision that you're going to find a
buyer's agent rather than rely on the seller's agent.
So can you talk us through that? Yeah, I just wanted someone on
my side because again, you know, I did I, I started coding this
website when I was very fresh to the market.
I didn't know the market. So kind of while I was building
it, I just, I, I wasn't actively looking for an agent, but I knew
I kind of wanted someone to represent me.
And I was kind of trying to decide which like investment
strategy I wanted because initially it was an investment
property. So I was trying to decide what
made sense, you know, Airbnb's or flat shares or whatever.
And I read an article that was written by an agency.
It was on their blog and I called them up and I, you know,
asked them about it and they said, oh, come in, you know,
we'll have a chat with you. So I went in, sat with them in
their like, conference room. It's just me and this, this
agent. And she wasn't trying to sell me
anything. She was literally just having a
chat for like an hour. And then at the end she was
like, OK, well, good luck. Hope it all goes well.
She didn't, you know, follow up. She didn't try and push me.
And then yeah, like six months later after it, it was after
dealing with some seller's agents actually, that I just
decided, no, I actually I want someone on my side.
And yeah, I just messaged her and I was like, do you want to
do it? And she's like, yeah, go on
then. And it's quite rare that agents
actually advertise themselves as I'm a buyer's agent or I'm a
seller's agent. So how do you find someone to
represent you? I think it's, it's someone that
you trust now that's it's difficult if it's someone
you're, you've only just met. Obviously a lot of it is kind
of, you know, our, you know, our gut feeling or intuitions about
a person. Yeah.
I want, I want someone that isn't too salesy, that isn't
constantly trying to sell me and just constantly, you know,
hunting that Commission. I had a lot of that when I first
moved here. I actually, I think that's
partly why I built the, you know, the website to begin with
because I had agents, you know, really kind of contact me every
other day. Harassing.
Yeah, a little bit. And and, you know, doing the
classic thing of like, you know, Jack, if you don't, if you don't
buy this, you know, it's going to it's it's going to go next
week and it's going to it's going to be worth X amount more.
You know, you're really missing out like constantly doing that.
I didn't want that and. Do you think that agents do need
to evolve into kind of data consultants to some degree?
Yeah, for sure. You know, a good, a good
property will sell itself. I I'm very, very sceptical of
all of the, the marketing and the, you know, the, you know,
all of the stuff. I guess it's more, it's more
kind of more off plan. But yeah, a good location, a
good view, a good layout, it's going to sell itself.
You know, if you can just guide them to that, if that's what
they want, that's more important.
And is there an outdated real estate practice that you'd love
to see gone tomorrow? Yeah, I would say Dubai.
Dubai's evolving and the property market's evolving and
Proptech here is really buzzing right now.
But the financing side of things is pretty stagnant.
That hasn't changed as far as I know for like over 10 years now.
The mortgaging rules, only banks here can give mortgages.
You can't have, you know, private companies doing lending
and things like that. I think as Dubai continues to
evolve, I think that that very old fashioned way of doing
mortgages and financing that needs to evolve as well.
So like in my, in my example, when I first moved here, I
didn't have a job, but I, I was just house hunting basically.
And I, you know, I had had my, you know, money kind of set
aside ready to buy a flat. And I was specifically trying to
buy an investment property, something that would pay, you
know, for itself, you know, with rental income.
And in my head, I I and I still can't understand why.
Why did I not get a mortgage, you know, for that it's a
property in a good location that's got rental income.
Why would a bank not finance that?
Why do they care if I? Have a salary?
Yeah. And it just shows, it shows that
there are issues with the system as a whole.
Like I, I mean, I've been told it's because it's very difficult
for the banks to repossess the property if if, if you stop
paying. So, you know, that needs to be
sorted. But yeah, I think if the, if the
market is to evolve to the point of, you know, truly competing
with the US or the UK, then the the financing side of things
needs to kind of leapfrog into the 21st.
Century and what's on the road map for the other value?
Right now it's getting our volume, getting our valuation
reports into the banks so that they can be used for mortgages.
So yeah, that process is under way right now.
And then yeah, it's for me. The thing that excites me the
most is having yellow value be the go to place.
Whenever somebody thinks you know what is a property worth I
want I want them straight away to think oh yellow value just
the same way, you know like. Google.
Yeah, Google or Wikipedia or you know, that everyone has a go to
or Chachi BT everyone has a go to place where I, I want to find
something out. I'm going to go to that place.
If you could give one top tip for home buyers right now, what
would it be? So I've noticed in Dubai in
particular, there is a real misunderstanding.
I would say that up and coming locations and developments,
particularly off plan ones are always better than kind of old
dated properties. So people will say, oh, you're
much better off, you know, buying something off plan in
Dubai S than buying something in Dubai Marina, for example.
And I think that's totally not true.
You get what you pay for. There's a reason why those
primaries are are expensive Downtown Palm Marina.
It's because they're prime and they will be prime.
I think in 20 years time. You're you're really taking
gamble, buying something off plan in the middle of nowhere,
hoping that it's, you know, one day going to appreciate the way
that you want. I would say kind of take take
those flashy off plan developments with a big grain of
salt. And advice for agents on how
they can integrate your platform into their daily routine.
Yeah, just use it for free like anyone else would, you know,
play around with it. If if you think that it's of
value to you, then check out the API So you can, you can plug it
directly into your website so that you can have, you know,
like a little valuation calculator on your website.
Give give your users a little bit more value.
Like I've noticed a lot of agencies will have a, you know,
like how much is your property worth?
And then you click on it and you just put your number in and then
they'll call you. We can make that a lot better.
So help to make your website a bit stickier as well?
Yeah, for sure. So agents, you could talk to
your agency owners. In fact, a lot of them are
watching anyway. So it's something that you can
integrate into your website to get an instant valuation.
Absolutely. OK, nice.
How do people find you? Yeah, I would say at yellow
value on Instagram is the main one.
Yeah, yellowvalue.com. Where else?
Where else would you see me? Probably driving around in the
desert or something like that, yeah.
OK, alright, anything else for our viewers?
Yeah, don't, don't be shy to get in touch if you have any
questions or you have any suggestions for things that you
would like to see on the site. You know, it's constantly
evolving. So if if there is something that
you would like, just just get in touch with us.
Yeah. Nice.
We welcome feedback. Oh.
Absolutely, yeah. OK.
Thank you very much, Jack. That was really useful.
And lots of golden Nuggets in there and get your own golden
Nuggets. Go and have a play on the
platform, type in, you know, your property, even if you're
renting, just to be curious. Go in, have a play on the
platform and let us know in the comments if anything surprised
you on the valuations. Don't forget to like, share, and
subscribe. Thank you.