If I'm going to show something to you, that is having a lot of
information may be valuable information, but you have
difficulty in understanding it, right?
If you have that difficulty for more than 57 seconds, you'll
lose your interest and you'll walk straight into another
Community. More like nostalgic.
Gives you a feeling that something was nicer back in long
time ago or something like that and using that as a compliment.
I try to feed into people that your city is not That bad, but
you can convert it into something that tastes better.
Hello and welcome to data. Shatter the podcast on all
things data. This podcast is a series of
conversations with experts and Industry leaders in data.
And each week. We aim to unpack a different
compartment of the data. Guess I'm your host.
Karthik chassis that I'm a blogger newspaper.
Columnist book, author and a former data and sadly conceited
at currently head, analytics and business intelligence for
delivery. One of India's largest logistics
companies. You can follow me on Twitter at
Karthik s that is Kar thi KS and read my blog at no Intruder.com.
That is n 0e. N th you be a Dot-com all
opinions explicitly spot that's belong to me.
And I thought Cash basis and I do not reflect the views of any
organizations. We might be Associated, nothing
discussing this podcast, should be taken as can achieve from
your letters. In this edition of data chatter,
we will talk about maps. Maps are excellent devices for
telling stories, think of the maps you see around election
time that show which parties won seats where in fact the
first-ever scatter plot. Dr. Jon Snow's figure of called
are cases in London, was essentially a map or think of
the famous map of Napoleon's invasion of Russia, which Edward
tough calls as one of the best infographics ever.
Telling stories through Maps is an exercise in data science
data, overlaid on maps. Can tell really powerful
stories. And as we learn in today's
conversation, the process of mapping is no different from the
process of data science. Our Guest is large, but that
polygamy or as he calls himself mapper for Life, Raj works for
the World Resources Institute India where he leads projects on
Urban Development water resources and transport in this
conversation that talks about His journey into mapping how he
makes his maps and how WWE influences the way he tells his
stories. It's all I know you because of
your maps on Twitter, primarily. I mean, you keep posting these
nice maps from time to time. So I also like on your Twitter
handle, you have something that says mapper for life or
something. So, can you take me through your
career Journey? Like what caught your attention
and how did you get interested in mapping?
So with respect to the journey? Actually, I was I know Maps and
geospatial Analysis. Since my childhood.
I am one of those black guys who got to work in the same field
where he knew, I had the ambition Store working.
So I think when I was maybe six or seven, I think I drew my
first back, it was on a wall and I still remember it.
Most probably goes on, it was that from.
So I used to travel a lot between my hometown and their
maternal grandmother's town and I used to draw the maps.
Of those places in defeat them, simulate traffic, etc.
Etc. So I also like to be, I actually
I'm in my parents and everybody encouraged it since childhood
and then I got formally educated in the same eventually.
I'd landed jobs in the same field.
So basically geography and stuff around that the, my interest and
passion for so long. And the right after that after
the formal education, and Jennifer Mattox.
I think I began to because the professional.
So yeah, for the last time, As I've been working on the
professional Antelope mapmaking and they were so that is the
journey. So if just to add, I mean
probably in the last 34 years, maybe I had started posting and
Twitter after getting inspired by other social media accounts,
like, you know, the amateur weather blog has actually they
inspired me a lot and ever since that I began posting a lot of
maps. I thought why, why is, you know,
beautiful maps and stuff like that?
I've been putting in my computer.
I thought everyone can enjoy it, so, Began chatting it.
And I take lot of Inspirations and cues from, you know, other
Industries a lot. So for example, like Peter
tagline, you said my part for like it's a ripoff of leathery.
I take a lot of cues from this link so it comes from that.
So I take a lot of inspiration from those from Tamil movies
everywhere. I see, you know, something that
is interesting. I just remember it and probably
it reflects in my maps at some point.
Awesome. Awesome.
Thirdly. So let's get to the mapping
itself. Dive in like so let me tell you
where I come from. So I am fundamentally a data
guy. So I got into Maps through data
visualization. So I'm not into maps.
I mean, I I'm not into GIS and things like that, but I do from
time to time sort of like use shapefiles in sort of building
maps for for whatever purpose, right?
Like right now I head analytics for a large logistics company,
but earlier I used to be a freelance consultant, which
means I have always been like making lots of diagrams and some
of them sometimes if you show that Things on a map.
It can sort of look nice and things like that and give the
sort of message that I otherwise it cannot give its own.
So to start off with, can you tell me the process that you
follow when you sort of so you'll be a when you design one
of your Maps? So for example, where does the
motivation for the map come from?
Do you start with the data or the map itself, or do you start
with some question thinking? Maybe I should look into this
today. And so can you maybe you could
use some examples, but can you take me through?
process that you follow when you sort of create your Maps, Sure,
so maps are actually the final stage of the entire process.
So usually I have a four-step process.
I call it. The four steps of a proper
genetics. So the first one is to define
the purpose. First, like, what are you trying
to do? And what kind of analysis that
you want to tell? What kind of story you want to
do? And who are the, who is your
audience and those kind of questions?
So those kind of fundamental questions like what are you
trying to achieve with the work that you're going to do for the
next? You didn't write so that would
be the first step that is identifying the purpose.
The second is actually the science behind it.
So, I mean that's where the data comes in.
Right? So we start to look at.
We have a concept. Let's assume that let's say, I
want to map something about literacy or something like that.
So close this. I want to tell people story
about late. Let's say the geographical
variation of interest rate. So that is the purple and the
second is the science. When I say science.
It comes into the data. I mean, close with the
availability of data do. We have that data, whether
whether it is able to answer the questions that I was thinking
about and if it has to be processed what kind of process
that it has to go through and those kind of things.
So science actually is the backbone for the entire thing
and it takes a lot of sometimes. I sit and digitize stuff for so
long just to get, you know, basically I'm a playing we are
trying to represent the ground reality, right?
So as if yeah, so it has to be as strong as possible if the
data is hot. From the data, the science is
not strong. Then what your whatever we are
going to produce going to the garbage.
So that is where I spent a lot of time.
Usually that, that is the second step.
That is the science part of it. The third is the technology one
that is program or software that we use or whatever it is that,
you know, that facilitates the entire business, it can speed up
the work but the but it is not the major work but knowledge of
that could be very helpful. So the concept we have to
concentrate on what technology that we use, actually that.
Is very important because it's not just about time-saving but
also sometimes what kind of product that comes out of it
will be dependent on that kind of choice.
So that is the third part, which is technology and the final one
is the art. So that's where you see the
product. That is the map.
I mean that is when the audience come to sleep.
So I might have done a lot of research on the science part.
A lot of time. I mean it will be taking 90
percentage of the time and then I would be thinking about how do
I convey the information that I've done, right?
So basically your Apis map is a story that is having a
geographical or spatial component Rick.
So you are going to tell the story to a person who has never
seen a map or sometimes. They might have seen Maps, but
they don't understand lots of places or something like that.
But for this kind of an audience, how are you going to
tell that story? Like, for example, the cross
sectional view of South India that was there.
Not that was produced. So basically, I want to tell
people that ran low risk in a higher elevation.
That was one of the purpose, and I want to tell them that.
On both sides, you have eastern ghats and western ghats and they
have not necessarily be very big Market.
They have Justice Captain switch, you know, so in the
middle you have a plaque to you and then pour the site you're
happy. And you know, it goes down very
quickly. And so I wanted to tell that
story and if that is the story in the back end, I was working
with a lot of data. How, what kind of data, how
should I present data? And then there, I was looking at
what technology is because what software is used for clipping
it? What?
Excited elevation visualization. Everything will be there on the
background. And finally, I decide on the
colors and I try to make it as easy and understandable as
possible. So when I was a kid, I used to
love Max with lot of markings, you know, everything I want to
show it to them. But now I understand, not
Everyone likes that kind. We have to get that concept, the
story to the folks. So from that perspective that So
our map is Big. What is the Journey of learning
a map? The map is just the product when
I try to tell the research that I have already done.
So that that's where it is. And for with respect to where I
start actually is on both sides. First this I will be working on
a purpose, of course work my official work as well as my
personal work. I have lots of interests.
So right mapping something I will start mapping something and
I'll do a lot of research and then you'll be gone.
You're doing that kind of research.
Something else would be coming in and you'll remember it.
Right? So, so that will be a data for
something else and that data at some point of time.
I will think that it is fast if it is fascinating enough, try to
prepare a separate napkin. So it can come from.
Either way, we can start from the purpose that can start.
And after while doing the search, I can find another story
of some sort of different know. Actually.
I will this fascinating because everything that you described,
right, everything that you described so far seems to me
like almost Most exactly the same as the data science process
rate. Where a lot of times you start
with a question. I didn't like try to design an
experiment. Collect data, figure out what
data can be, used, what tools can be used to process the data
and whatever you output. Finally is just the last ten
percent of whatever you have done.
And there are also a lot of times when you will be working
on something and then you'll be like, hey, maybe I should look
at this. Other thing that might also be
interesting and then like sort of going to that and stuff.
So it's so it's Interesting. That like, I mean while the
output of you might think of maps as being like sort of not
necessarily this joint but very different from sort of data
science, but in terms of the process, it's pretty much the
same. So it's the that's a fascinating
insight for me. So in the middle while you're
answering I think you spoke about choosing colors.
So can we spend some time talking about colors?
I mean like also because one of you the things I've noticed with
your Maps is that layer generally visually appealing.
So what is it about Chapstick, how should you choose colors?
What kind of colors make sense in?
What kind of context, and it's a little bit awkward sometimes for
me to answer this one. But anyway, I'll just do that
because the reason being is that when I joined the recent
organization, variety that for the last six years, one of the
earliest come up with that. So, I mean, it used to be, I
mean, that's where I began learning it in the sense.
Like, till then it was all analysis, analysis and modeling.
I had, you know, as I said like the four parts, the first three
parts I always answered. Electrical.
I was perfect time. I felt that I was perfect in the
first three, but I always thought the ark was overrated
by, for when I began taking the maps and the analysis to, you
know, governmental agencies and public domain.
That's when I realized that I lacked.
I mean, I that's when I understood the value of R.
So, with, that learning, I mean, from my burning, so what I will
say, is that the choice of colors, I try to make it as
Simple as possible by. I mean, I call myself a
minimalist in that way. If you have map, shouldn't
contain too much of information as well as it shouldn't, it
should reveal the right amount of information and it can be
more than that. So, in that perspective, we
can't perceive more than 15 colors that are built.
And I mean if I'm going to throw 15 colors in front of you you'll
be like, so yeah at the max I choose like three or four
fundamental colors and I try to make sure that Highlight the
story as much as possible. So basically the concept is if
you're looking at like, from a kid's perspective, of someone
who has been seeing these things.
Will they take from it? That is the question I try to
answer when I choose my colors and when I choose the
highlighting and everything, so the story has to come out very
clearly if the story is not coming out, then it is not
possible, right? So then to get this, I tend to
be minimalist, I try to talk about certain things about focus
and highlight. For example, if I'm going to
tell the story, About that elevation.
So that is the Focus. Right?
So your elevation is the focus so that choice of color should
be like in that the foreground that elevation should be, the
one that is getting highlighted. And the rest of it.
You should imagine that it is a background image.
Like I mean, it's similar to any other industry, by the way, it's
similar to any photographic industry or videography or
anything of that sort where you think of foreground and
background and everything around that, what should be highlighted
and what? Going to be highlighted.
So and it's a trial and error. I don't have any specific rule
book. It's always like I change the
transparency. I change the things that
contrast, sharpness, everything I think over and over for every
layer till I kill. I feel that.
Okay. This is telling the story.
So the moment someone see this map.
I think they'll get the story that I think I made lots of
mistakes also. So I mean, the successful ones,
we always talk about but the ones with the errors I have used
to think like, you know, it works a lot, but people are not
King me because it's not visualized.
Maybe there are, I mean naturally itself some of them
it's difficult to visualize that way, but there is no single
rule. I mean the one one single rule
for it. Is that a person who doesn't
know should understand it? If it is answering that
question, then is why that is the choice of color.
I learnt a lot about, you know, I never thought why to a
circular. So I learned that it can be
useful. If it is rightly used, that can
be very powerful in sending out, hanging.
It impresses a lot of So, I tend to choose some four or five
colors which are really impressive.
For example, read the golden are lower the blue for water that I
have a specific goal that I have for water.
If you go through my things some of them will have that kind of a
blue either but then black and white.
So between these colors, I try to finish my map.
So but I just make sure that these ones are there to
highlight the stuff. So yeah, yellow, red, black
white, these four fundamental for me, too.
To highlight the glue. Is that a ground than green?
Is the back? That's going one.
Other thing that I have sort of noticed in many of your Maps,
right? Is that like you use a lot of
annotations? I think I'd recently put on
Twitter also that for the particular map, it was because
of your annotations that it was easy to read the map and
understand the message to message, right?
So, how did you, I mean, is that also sort of a learning process
that which you learned over time, that adding these
annotations help? And then like, how do you choose
what annotation? To put tile like is there a sort
of a sweet spotted? How much a notation is good for
a particular man? Yeah, so it's a learning.
I never liked that. I mean I never thought
annotations were part of a component of a map.
I used to always put them and put them in the legend in the
bottom. So my Legends used to be like,
you know, really large and experts should understand that.
That's what I realized. It experts really understand
from The Legend. They go to the legend, a check.
What is this color? What is that?
Killer, when they come back, but for a good majority of people,
the first 5 seconds or 10 seconds of moving.
The map is You know, that they will be attracted to it or not.
Right? So it has to arouse your
curiosity as well as right as to answer the question quickly,
otherwise people get frustrated. So if I'm going to show you,
show something to you, that is having a lot of information may
be valuable information, but you have difficulty in understanding
it, right? If you have that difficulty for
more than 57 seconds. You'll lose your interest and
you'll walk straight into another treat.
Right? Sophie, you'll scroll down.
So for me, that try to 10 seconds is very critical so that
five to ten seconds. I have to.
So within that five to ten seconds, but the max you can be
33, annotations can be. So I'm increase itself is a too
much one, but probably you'll be looking at one and the keep.
The first one is captivating, you will look at another two and
you'll get, I mean, that's it. That's all you want to do.
A majority of the people that like, 90% of them want to see
that, you know, that And they want to get the answers right
away. They don't want to get further
accelerates across. So at that point, I prefer
keeping the annotations to sell the story.
Basically, if I want to talk about I think so actually many
people don't realize how flood water will look in a satellite
image. So it's very difficult for them.
Till there will be different forms of flood waters and the
different colors. So some of them, it's muddy some
of them. It's not that muddy.
It's dark. It depends on.
What how much silt is there and what type of letters Etc.
There are so many things into it.
So at that, That point. It is very difficult for them to
know what color means what. So if I'm going to post that
without that annotation, everybody's going to scroll
down, they would feel either dumb or they would be later.
You know, this guy's posting some random stuff.
I don't want that. I if I want them to be hooked
ever tell them very clearly that this is the flat area.
And after that, the more enthusiastic ones, they will
search for smaller details and add a little bit of So three
annotations at the max 34 if it is a gift is really a big map.
If it's a really something that I worked on for a long time.
Or if I think that if it isn't confined to a small story, like
for example, the car very Watershed map that I had
prepared like you. That one is a pretty large map,
pretty large area. When you have such a large area,
you have people who are emotionally attached to it.
I'm attached to their geographies.
They will be like some or someone will be from Bangalore.
Someone will become tangible and someone will my sister and
everyone will be like, where is my place?
Is it getting represented? They will be emotional about it.
So, you have to have a little bit more of text.
So, yeah, the Ada is a balance between what people would be
expecting from that type of a story, so that determines that
annotations and without that, it is not going to work.
That's the Coming to the side again, a related topic.
So, I think, when I make my, I use a lot of crafts and
visualizations, in, in my work, so, to AA, explain everything.
So, of course, very few Maps, but mostly like typical bar
graph Scatter Plots in all that. So, one of the things that I am
very particular, is that, if I am making a graph, I should
control the message that the reader gets because I am making
a graph to kind of tell a particular story to you.
And so, I want to make the make the graph is the right man.
Another make the necessary annotation so that I control the
message. So that's my philosophy.
The other philosophy is that like you should just show things
as they are give control to the people who are consuming it and
then like so and then let them consume it.
This is the whole interactive maps, sort of moving maps, that
kind of feel like so, so, where do you stand on?
How do you do both, or do you have a particular favorite in
this and like, how how does that go?
Now? I am actually 90%.
Of the first age 10 percentage of the second stage.
So when I say that what I mean is that every map of mine is
supposed to have a story and the story is going to be curated by
so I decide the story, right? So I wanted to be like I decide
what people have to see an act, but on the other hand, there are
going to be Enthusiast, right? So for them, it's a small.
Print will be there for exploration.
It's up to them, to explore it, and they want to explore it.
They can go ahead and exploratory.
Good majority of the data that That I have in case is open
source. And if they are really
interested, they can browse about it and they can go ahead
with their story if they want to find something.
But for me the purpose is very very critical for me.
It can't, it can't be a headless one.
So all my Max I even now I think I posted something and I call it
as story-driven maps of story oriented Maps.
I don't call it as Maps. I'm not, I'm not preparing an
actor. So I mean, yeah, that's that's a
different one. But for me, I think there should
be a story and because to clearly Define what?
I'll have an agenda and all the time, like people think people
might think that is just posting nice Max.
But always, that he gave a naked.
Imagine that any can I say to you?
And I have a problem. It's a bigger concept.
If I, again, I think the inspiration I take it from.
So there is a short-term storytelling long-term
storytelling. So many Concepts, I'll try to
integrate into my maps and most of it comes from movies and pro
wrestling and also key that That's very interesting is also
in somewhere. Now.
You mentioned that like all the data that you use in some of
your Maps. It's all open source and things
like that. So, coming to the data.
I mean, let's talk about the data behind the maps itself.
Right? So for example, how easy or
difficult is it to come across this data?
And how easy or difficult is it to process are there?
Sort of restrictions on making Maps.
Do you run into copyright issues and getting permissions?
And how if you were to, if somebody were to get it to
mapping now like How would it be in terms of just getting hold of
the data to support of start working with it?
All right. So actually the answer is a
complex one. Certain things are, you know, we
already have data for a lot. But you see in there is there is
a deficit country and for the anything that we want to tell a
story on, we don't have that much data.
And that is on one side. On the other side.
Once that are already out there. They are underutilized so it's
both, right. So what happens is that you can
tell a lot of I mean you can create.
Lot of maps with openly available data itself.
And the second is, if you spend a little bit more time, if you
are little bit patient enough, if you are not busy enough, so I
mean, many people get lazy that they don't sit and digitized,
but I love to sit and do that. I mean sit and digitized data.
So if we are doing that, then probably will have lots and lots
of interesting data points that are going to come.
So, India is the severely under map and even Oh it is data that
is it is also severely undermanned.
So that means if someone wants to do math, they are still
having a lots of scope even without any proprietary data.
Now there is a lot of proprietary data that is leather
is a lot of data that is hiding behind pay walls.
There are some that are hiding just behind, you know,
government doesn't disseminate a lot of them and there is a lot
of those kind of things are also there but but I think you can do
a lot with open data itself that open data and probably a little
bit more reading or something. You'll get a lot more data
rather than waiting for proprietary data.
So majority of the ones that I post our open data, but few of
them, I think are proprietary, probably is related to mine
company and or probably self-interest is also there.
So, in the sense, like, I would be thinking certain things to be
cobbling, those kind of things, but I actually publish it.
But yeah, some somehow I think 90, 10 and 90 percentage of the
data is open. Anyone wants to replicate some
though that that's awesome to know like and you mention of a
digitization. So what exactly do you mean by
digitization? I mean if it is just data, it's
just taking data from a PDF and typing it out.
I mean is it that or do you actually digitized maps?
And how do you get? So how do you do that?
So for example, actually, it's a complex one.
There are three sets of answers. One is with respect to PDFs, are
typing it out. Like for example, let's say
prevalence of coconut trees that sort of palm trees and connect
more districts. So there we have some numbers
from old gasset saying how much palm trees were there in the
district. So you have number so that is
directly. I'm going to type from somewhere
else to killing some kind of an information.
Second this certain boundaries where hand-drawn in the past, or
maybe they were digitized, but they are not provided.
This to us in a digital format of a that, and those maps have
to be drawn like polygons have to September.
For example, The Village boundaries that I have probably
probably, maybe one or two other companies in India, might be
having. So this is sense of boundaries
for. So I think I did manage to draw
all the polygons for nearly six hundred thousand six.
Luckily, this ritual. So, so sit and draw which of
these polygons look, At the map if you're getting old.
Exactly. The location on the ending, we
give the coordinates and everything.
So basically, sit and draw those ones.
So that is s, then there is a third, which sometimes I ask my
colleagues to do also, but I also do a lot of that.
That is people describe stuff in their text, which will not be a
direct attribute data, or, or geospatial data, but it will
have a geographical, you know, context to they'll describe it
thing that to my left. There was this, too, My right.
We were walking through one of these streets and at the end of
the street there was a temple or something like that so that I
can sometimes convert it into a map, instead of wings.
Instead of that being set as text.
I convert that into the map based on the descriptions that
they have provided. So this is a different type of
individual three, three types of consent.
So for example, for this one, I'm doing one map on it actually
has a little bit of map component to it.
But I am taking a lot more on the text also, there is there
was this Start a riot in 1858. So the English officers were
fatally for the cash. They strike and an English
officer has written letters to the government in Madras saying
that this was think that is a bridge, but it is not being
used. They also gave some reference in
maps, but most of these were coming and text like, saying
they were writing a letter to the other.
So, from those letters, I try to convert like, okay.
This is this place exactly. This is what they are trying to
explain and then I convert it into a story.
I'm just waiting at probably. I think probably by this month
in do something like that. I will put out a map on that
that saying that, you know, this was that incident and this is
how it happened. And probably to mention about
this cast related violence, 150 years ago, right?
So that's amazing. Documentation is the first
place. I mean that you managed to find
this document from 1858 and idea like and converting that into a
map away and finding it a little hard to imagine, how you take a
piece of text and convert it into a map.
But yeah, I'll probably wait, wait for you to publish this to.
Yeah, this one is actually the letting the easy but there are
some things that I paint too. Great.
For example, one neighbors been, I've been attempting for an ear
right now, but I couldn't get it right as the original 24. 24
parganas were supposed to be the fairness and the Mahal, the
house of administrative units, those who are these doubt to the
English. Try after the battle of Endor
think, so they have names and descriptions in Some places.
But how do I find the location of that place?
Like the inradius place names have changed?
They mention something is new. Something is Count.
Like, how do I go about it? They are both are fergana.
Not, which means knots Cog, Anna.
Where is this? Not for dinner?
What is this? What is not.
So those kind of things are so for that?
I think I've managed to trace around 10 or 10 now.
It's still in like, you know, sometimes it's a failure, but
it's also learning but that's that makes it more interesting
because the more I read about those things actually I realized
that certain it's not just Bengal.
Also, you have lots of good soil based with each place names.
So I was looking at them that probably doesn't store in there.
Also in terms of mapping. So anyway, that's okay.
That's all. Okay, that's that's also but
Let's change tracks a little bit now.
So I am curious to understand like so you produce a lot of map
setting apart, from what you hear, or Twitter.
You also get feedback from other people.
I mean, III, know this part of your regular work as well.
So my question to you is are there certain kinds of maps that
are easier to understand or are there maps that are more
difficult to understand what kind of maps map based stories,
do people easy take to and what which are sort of like What are
the kind of things where the is sort of like the learning curve
for people is a bit steep maybe and they may not really
appreciate the map. I won't say that that there is a
particular field of maths. That is difficult for people to
understand, but in every type of map, it depends on like what I
was describing the process. If they didn't answer that
process, then the same map can be Used in a more easily
understandable way, as well as some more complex way which goes
into failure. So it can be produced in both
the ways. So there never is a particular
field that can never be made easier or vice versa.
So, for example, if I have to say, like, I mean, one one
critical thing is that, like I said, like people should
understand this one of the questions that you need to
answer when we are preparing them out.
And if the producer is going to be lazy about it or if the
producer is a little bit egoistic about it in the sense
that they will be, like, none of this is science.
This is how it should be. This is, if people can't
understand it's their fault or sometimes people who go, the
producer will go like, you know, they won't even look into it.
They will fill it with job them. They will try to sound as smart
as possible, and at that map, if that is the map, then it is So
that is the but there is no single set of maps that will be
good or bad. It depends on who's going to
produce and how it is going to come out.
So sometimes I try to make sure that I convert the words into
easy understandable, one's less technical Words, which could be
easily understood by everybody. Right?
So that is the concept if that is not answered, then it is not.
That's that's the, that's the awesome awesome.
And it's a bit Probably a bit of a cliche question and one that I
hate to answer, but I'll and ask you anyway, so what are the kind
of kinds of software tools that you use while product producing
your Maps like and are these like again accessible open
source, or like, I mean, how does it work?
It how has your journey being so far in terms of even to use?
So I usually, I tend to follow that Maslow's growth, you know,
if you have a happy all that you have is a hammer, everything.
He looks like an alien to you. Right?
So basically the tool, if you are religiously attached to a
particular tool, you will think about the problem about the same
tool. I mean, how that tool will
answer it, right? So from that perspective, only,
the basic idea is that you shouldn't be attached to a
particular tools. So I try to be as flexible as
possible. But I also have.
I also religiously adopt certain tools and so for work purposes.
I think we have license for RJ as which is a proprietary
software. But every day I try to promote
and use the qgis, which is open source, so, which can perform
everything that are Diaz, does, and spring, and sometimes
actually the visualizations of much better in TJ's, I think so,
I think use that one for GIS purposes for every process.
I think I will, I prefer using python since it stands for table
thing and the but it depends. I mean sometimes I have to
switch to JavaScript are our sample of that.
To do that. The night goes, it depends.
I mean Mangalore visualization that you mentioned earlier.
I think that was done the final visualization of done using a
software called area lat. I don't think anyone knows it.
I don't think anyone in India knew it, when I prepared a nap.
Okay. So small software.
It was, I mean, it was an amazing software, but they just
created it and put it out in the open and somehow I found it
somewhere. And after.
I had one and it was looking great.
And it was just thinking a minute or something like that.
I thought it was great. And the preparedness of the for
an entire year. I think I produce, so that's
all. Got it.
Got it, though. I think I guess since both of
them are open-source. I guess it is possible for you
to sort of get fanatical about. Okay, so now can you talk talk
me through, some of your favorite Maps.
It could be maps that you have reduced.
It could be maps that somebody else is produced and that you
like and so on. So can we just take two, three
examples of maps that you like? And you can talk me through will
probably put Links to the pictures of these maps in the
description with the podcast so that the viewers can sort of the
listeners can see them. But, but yeah, like if you could
just take examples of two or three maps and could be yours,
could be anywhere. Somebody else.
I think I don't have any favorite.
But to be honest, I don't have any favorite.
Usually, I measure it based on how much people loved it.
So probably from that perspective as the link.
So actually maybe I'll just explain why I don't have a
single favorite because for me, as I mentioned earlier, It's a
short film story as well as a long-term story for the one map
is not an app. It's actually going to come with
another map. That is going to connect the
story to it and it's a bigger part.
So maybe something like, I can explain it.
But but that's why I don't have any favorites.
I believe that each one is a component of the massive
storytelling that I'm trying to do here.
So, but I will talk about the Nats that people love the lat,
so giving people some of them. Viral some of them have not.
But I will talk about the ones that went viral because people
really understood. So those are the ones that I,
you know, from, I mean, it taught me a lot as well.
So in the description, maybe I will add one on the 30-day map
challenge that I did last year. So in that, there are some 30
which each one with one different concept and I mean
Concept in the guns, like it didn't have a story but it was
just information but 30 different information portrayed
in different different formats. So for example, there was One on
the religious landscape of Kerala, where I portrayed, you
know that, I mean we have religion.
So and we have three fundamental colors, red green and blue,
interesting? Need to of the religions
actually somewhat associate with colors nearby to them.
Like you can do a more updated of that Quran and Islam the
screen. And so I managed to make a map
of those three saying that, you know, if it is more blue than
you have more Christians, if you are adding more green than that
is more Muslims. And if you are More red than it
is more Hindu. And it was somehow these things
just work. So those kind of coincidences I
love because, you know, it's something really complex and
just because things are this way, is really answer that.
So those that one I loved and there was one I prepared out of
excel because signing just color formatting Excel cells.
So that was the thought that he had for a long time and it
wasn't long before. Even I had a computer.
I had seen the Excellence of when I was a kid and I never had
it in mind when I was growing up, but I thought if it was
given to me then what can I do with it?
So I had drawn that in my notes notebooks when I was okay, like
this is how the color different types of trauma and it did the
same thing. So when I got x sub I collided
and I got a map by just by coloring all the cell's and it
was a vegetation map of India. Probably that one was Yeah, it
didn't have. These are, these didn't have
long-term story, but it was, it was actually answering the
question that I was talking about that technology, right?
That you shouldn't be fixed until the any technology.
Any any software can be used, if you can color code, the Excel
into map, then what? But not, write any any software
can be used for mapping contends, that annotations that
you are talking about. Those are coming from
PowerPoint, right? So that to answer that question.
Probably I created that and probably other.
It is coming from that When the Thought is also, How much are
you feeling? Watch that attitude and so bits
and pieces of it? Not the whole movie.
Okay, so the rat in Paris which wants to be a check and you
know, and I think ghosts out what's the name of our
restaurant or something? With some some some inspiring.
Jeff was running it before long time before the Jeff used to say
that anybody can cook meaning that even a rack and even a rat
can become a chest. So it's the same thing.
I wanted to tell with that map. Anything can be used for
performing a Anybody can map and any software can happened, Excel
can be used and that was one of the maps to demonstrate that.
So it's part of the long story. Like I said, everything is part
of a long story. Yeah, like you say that you have
drawn from sort of the inspiration you got from WWE and
stuff is what you mentioned. Yes, so they're using used to do
anything. Within a match.
They'll have a story that they want to say and they'll it's not
just a fight. Actually.
It's like a well choreographed want, right?
So they try to sell us and then they have a short-term storyline
there, even over the Rivalry between two wrestlers in, like a
short period of time like two months or three months to keep
going on and then there will be a long-term storyline.
Sometimes it might stretch years if it works out nice, then they
have the characters and everything that is built for
several years. So you have these three things.
So in my methods or it could be like that.
There will be a small component of short-term story.
That is the particular issue that the map wants to say, and
it will be part of a short-term story that is part of the Season
or something like that and trying to beat a level long-term
story with my agenda. That is my thought process that
I want to talk about like gustaf's, anybody can cook.
Anyone, any software can be used for mapping.
That's my long-term storyline and of which the short installed
line was that 30-day map Challenge.
And within that, there is this particular map that is free.
Can Excel and mapping it and saying that, you know, this is
the short time in this is the enduring story.
So so if you are going to look at my maps for the mind, my
concept is that if you look at my maps for the next 5 years or
10 years, then you will think the same way I do.
So that is what I'm doing right now.
Very, very, very interesting. Very, very dizzy.
Okay. So, again, sort of something
else I wanted to ask you about. So, I think most of the maps
that you have produced the ones that I Of remember, of the
custom Twitter. And so on at sort of what I
would call, as topographical maps are maps that are they
similar to what you would see in the physical map, physical
likeness care rather than a political at this kind of thing.
Like, but also like, I mean, have you also play like I think
you've also done some maps of cities and things like that.
What are the sort of the challenges are differences
between Lex a mapping urban areas in cities versus sort of
mapping the mapping large regions like Like maybe as a
sort of a slice of South India or something.
So with respect to them. Usually I don't have any
technical or scientific issue. It's all going to be the same
for me, the amount of work that is going to be put our, what
kind of sort of story. I want to say.
Everything will be almost the same with respect to our bun.
I mean, this is also some something to do with the
psychology of things, people try to find the false Indian
contingent and they will be always expecting.
Something. You say something about bad,
about the city. They'll be expecting that.
If you put Matt Forte. So, that is the usual problem
that I have like, they, of course, are so, these are not
that visible, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't celebrate
the culture around. What everyone will be expecting.
Likely to show a river flowing through a sleeping.
The comments would be filled with, you know, it's the way
it's all. It always used to be like that,
but it's like this, it's like that.
But if you're going to talk about a larger geography, people
try thing to be more appreciative of the.
So, again, again, coming from pro wrestling and Moody
backgrounds here. I have protagonist and
antagonist and all the heroes and villains.
I called my maps, like sometimes, like, you know, from
that perspective. Also, I pretend to see you.
So the stick to our urban area since people are expecting this
kind of faults. I try to link, you know, Try to
bring the other side of it as much as possible, but it will
try to, you know, it's more like more like nostalgic.
Gives you a feeling that something was nicer back in long
time ago or something like that. And using that as a compliment.
I try to feed into people that your city is not that bad, but
we can convert it into something that is better.
That is the only thing that I need to do it in my maps and
cities for the region. I think people are always very
appreciative about their ability.
You know that us. This is the amazing place.
This is amazing. This is amazing.
They don't have anything to say at that point.
So difficulty technically and scientifically I never had an
issue. Usually storytelling.
An urban NASA said like it is much more complex as you have to
tell the lot of things but but the landscape won't under view
because it's relatively flattered.
When, you know, I mean, relatively flattered.
So are you mentioned a while back that like, I mean India is
a sort of a data started country and that whatever data we have
even that is sort of Not being used as much as it should dial
tone. I'm completely with you on that.
So but from the mapping perspective, which is like, do
you think there are cases where maps are underused where if we
sort of use more maps, we could probably tell better stories, do
things better and so on and are there places where you think
mapping is over here examples for both.
So the application is it is underused in India, with respect
to Forest management. Where ER it whether it is the
poor urban planning but management or planning related
to that the claims of water. So every single domain that we
can think of where Maps can be applicable to sexually and say,
for example, as I said, that cloud is one one big case.
So let's say a cyclone is coming right now.
So the data for, you know, the data forecast for cyclone path
is going to compromise MD, or probably get it from The Joint
icons and Draw Something Real. Get something from that, but
then, Once at once a forecast comes in, there is a, there is
a, there is an e that you can have a support system, right?
Where you can say, how many leaders are going to be impacted
disabilities. How many of them are having
power lines and what kind of power lines?
How many Transformers are there? Where are the emergency rescue
centers? Where other schools which can be
converted into the Emergency Shelters.
There are so many things that can be produced in in a
geospatial format. And the do anything in that
room. So, disasters is for 18, s is
urban planning is complete. I don't think anyone understands
the value of maps over there because, like I see maps over
there. But it's like something they are
doing just because they are told to do and that's it.
And I don't see the value of it. They don't understand the
spatial nature of our economy or geography and everything around
that out people associate with money.
Everything is actually absolutely has a geography
galangal and I don't see any of them getting reflected in our
urban planning scenarios. So in every, every every
possible manner, where you Lady maps with you, probably go
through a presentation that talks about application of
geography. So respect to overutilization.
Now, that is a very clear. This is where now the
overutilization happens usually with current, when I say Tech
friend, when someone says that an app, does a solution for
everything, right? So, along with that app, they
will bring a. So that's when I this is an
useless nap. That's, I mean, what are you
trying to be like, so what happens is that the II prefer to
have a Data pipeline for, I mean, in the sense like locally
managed of some prophetic. I have no talking about the
management. But more on the pipeline.
If you are talking about any data data that has to be pretty
need to have you need to, you need to collect it from ground.
The hospital is where, as I said, we have to, you shouldn't
be lazy about it. People are like, where the
hospital is that a school is expensive, but they don't sit
and Mark. They don't go to that place and
check it. They don't add the attributes of
anything about it. The Stuff, what they do is they
do the lazy work. Sometimes they just give the
address in Google maps and they get a location, and they just
put it and those are calculated. And, I mean, it is accurate to
some extent, but it is not worthy enough.
And then they'll say, okay, if I have prepared, a map of access
to schools access to call hospitals, and here is the
nearest covid Center and for me and maps that are coming out and
it was given that the nearest vaccination Center was two and a
half kilometers. Meters away.
And they look like this is not the place.
I mean, this is not that ID card.
So I have always connected to solving.
The problem is that the way people collect data and they
people structure, therefore this is completely wrong and because
of that crisis, over utilized in some cases, you don't require
maps to tell people certain things.
So you don't have to tell group of, you know, your location is,
you know, you can see it in a map and you can find your
nearest vaccinations and Through a map.
You just tell them that this is the place.
Yeah, you don't require an app for that.
Okay. Thanks Rog, that's being the
completely fascinating and so as we have learned a lot.
I mean, the first thing I learned was that like, I mean,
mapmaking is like District data science in the entire process in
things like that. But before we end I want to ask
you one. Last question, if you what would
your advice be to a youngster who is sort of interested in
mapping and wants to make a career in mapping.
What would your advice be in terms of how to go about the
process when I try to hire people?
Also, this is one thing that I looking try looking for
attitude. When I say attitude, it's about
how inquisitive the person is how much they want to know more
and it's not about the map making process, but how much
they want to know more about the society?
They live in is about how much they want to know about the
ground conditions. They should associate daily.
They should have a strong proofs.
They should be that they are connected to a place.
Only thing they can help. It's very useful.
Thank you for listening to data shatter.
If you like this show, please leave a comment, share and
subscribe to the podcast. You can find this podcast on
Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever else you go to get your
podcasts. Once again, this is Karthik
signing deaf. Thank you.