1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,080 What the fork? OK, OK, let's try this again. 2 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,720 Welcome to Forking Off the podcast by former feds who got 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,200 the fork out. I'm Jill Fields. 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,440 And I'm Philip Fields. Now before we get started, make 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,320 sure to hit the follow button. You can find all our content and 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,040 show notes on our website forkingoff.com. 7 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:28,080 And if you enjoy what we do and want to help, consider 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,040 supporting us on Kofi. Hi, we've got a great guest 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,920 today, Alec Choppa, a former conciliator with DOJ's Community 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,040 Relations Service. Before we hear from Alec, we 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,320 wanted to highlight some data from OPM and some insight about 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,920 all of the departures from federal service over the last 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,120 year. Hey, Philip, do you want to tell 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,640 us a little bit more about the data project you're working on? 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,520 I've read a lot of these stories about numbers on who left the 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,760 government, how many people, which agencies were impacted, 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,880 and I remember seeing back in January, OPM released data on 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,400 all of the separations between January 2025 and January 2026. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Interesting. Right. 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,480 So many people have questions about this and so many people 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,440 have so many different types of questions about how did it 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,320 affect this group of people? How did it affect that group of 23 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:20,960 people? What I wanted to do was create a 24 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,800 project where people could go to a website, pick from some 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,440 choices and see what's actually been going on, but also to be 26 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,800 able to create some dashboards and things to show people some 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,040 of the things that we found interesting as well. 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,680 It's up now. We're continuing to make updates 29 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,240 to it. It's on our website, 30 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,120 forkingoff.com. You can go straight to it at 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,720 data.forkingoff.com. It'll allow you to go through. 32 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,440 You can look at the numbers for different agencies or different 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,680 jobs, or you can filter down to just the people who took the 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,240 deferred resignation. You can see how it affected 35 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,120 different classes of employees, all sorts of good stuff. 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,160 It's got stuff in there about veterans and how they were 37 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,120 impacted. It's got data about age ranges 38 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,639 and things like that. I encourage people to go check 39 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,320 it out, but I also encourage people to let us know if there 40 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,040 are things that it doesn't do that you would like to be able 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,600 to do or if you have a recommendation for how to 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,720 improve upon it. Let us know what you think about 43 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,960 that. The data like on the page, 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Phillip tells you exactly where the data came from, how he 45 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,560 cleaned up the data. You got questions, just reach 46 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,840 out. All of the code is on GitHub, so 47 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,000 if anybody wants to know exactly what I did, you can learn more 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,040 there. Now let's talk about what's 49 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,800 going to happen in today's episode. 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,040 So we're going to be talking with Alec Chapa, who is with 51 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,760 Community Relations Service. If you've been listening to us 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,320 for a while, you'll remember our very first guest was also with 53 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,800 Community Relations Service with DOJ, Jordan Matthews. 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,560 And Jordan told us then that was America's Peacemaker. 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,600 But just to give everybody a little bit of background, 56 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Community Relations Service has been around for over 60 years 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,120 and they are they there to provide assistance to 58 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,520 communities and people to resolve disputes and 59 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,680 disagreements and difficulties relating to discriminatory 60 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,680 practices. Can you provide some examples of 61 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,520 how they've done that? Well, yeah, one of the oldest 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,680 examples we have of CRS actually coming in and helping 63 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,760 communities is in 1965, when Martin Luther King Junior staged 64 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,400 the March in Selma. And just days after Alabama 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,960 State troopers in cops assaulted protesters in Buddy Sunday, CRS 66 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,600 were the officials who came in and worked with the community to 67 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,840 avert another round of violence. They were there to soothe 68 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,560 tensions and to get people to come together and to listen to 69 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,280 one another. At the beginning of 2025, CRS 70 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:01,440 had 57 employees nationwide, according to OPM data. 47 of 71 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,440 those employees left or were removed from government service. 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,360 57 already doesn't seem like enough for a whole country. 73 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:14,000 To be the peacemaker. To take 47 of them away seems 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,600 like a big deal. Yeah, it's a huge, huge deal. 75 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:22,360 Especially in a year when we've seen so much unrest. 76 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,960 When I was doing a little bit of research on CRS, I found this 77 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,320 article by Pro Publica. It was in the heat of the George 78 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,840 Floyd protest and CRS was pretty much sidelined. 79 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:40,040 During that time. Only a handful of CRS employees 80 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,880 were sent to cities that had been experiencing unrest, and 81 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,560 there were very few public statements made. 82 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,600 And Pro Publica pointed out that critics were stating that this 83 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,440 muted response reflected the Trump administrations efforts to 84 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,360 dismantle CRS and to leave it short staffed and rudderless was 85 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,920 the word they used. So in the first Trump 86 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:07,000 administration, CRS had seen some trouble and had seen some 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,680 roadblocks put up. I think I remember Jordan making 88 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:12,680 reference to something like that. 89 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:18,440 But then in 2021, when the Derek Chauvin trial and the sentencing 90 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:23,840 came about, CRS was there to help ease those tensions and to 91 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:27,120 facilitate those discussions that they had not been allowed 92 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,920 before. So there was was a little 93 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,760 foreshadowing, but to now see in light of all of this unrest, 94 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,320 with all of this turmoil in our country, to know that the people 95 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,080 that would normally be there and would beat facilitating those 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,480 conversations, they're just gone. 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,560 Right. So after the murder, I'll just 98 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,360 say it of Renee Goode and Alex Pretty, that absolutely would 99 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,720 have been the time for and especially when the state was 100 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,400 saying we want to be involved in these investigations and the 101 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,160 federal government is pushing them away and saying no. 102 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,360 That seems like a situation where mediation would be 103 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,880 helpful. But as we've seen, and as Alec 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,800 will go into much more in the interview, mediation is a two 105 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,560 way thing. You have to want to be there and 106 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,240 I don't see that I want on the side of the government. 107 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,160 To me, CRS is the perfect signal that the federal government has 108 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,720 no interest right now in communicating with the public, 109 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:32,040 with communities, with the people who make up this country, 110 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,600 with the people from whom they derive their power. 111 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,600 I found this quote and it was from Ronald Wakabayashi. 112 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,720 He was a regional director for CRS years ago, but he had stated 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,480 if you can get a conversation started, things are less likely 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,200 to go stupid. And I mean, like, it kind of 115 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,360 makes you laugh, but it's so, it's so right on the money. 116 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,920 It's so right on the nose. We should not be. 117 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,560 We went full stupid. Idiocracy is real. 118 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,520 OK, well, on that note, I think it's a really good time for us 119 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,480 to pivot to the interview with Alec and hear what he has to 120 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,320 say. Hi, Alec. 121 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Hi, good to be with you. Thanks so much for joining us. 122 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,280 Why don't we go ahead and jump in, Give us your bluff, your 123 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,000 bottom line upfront. All right, So I'm Alec Choppa. 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,160 I was a conciliator at Community Relations Service under the 125 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,560 Department of Justice, and now I run a dispute resolution firm, 126 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Mosaic Collaborative Consulting. I took the second deferred 127 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,760 resignation offer. Tell us a little bit about your 128 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,880 background, like what led you to public service? 129 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,480 How'd you get there? Well, I'll try not to dump out 130 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,240 my whole background here. You know, ever since I was 131 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,000 young, I was a student of philosophy. 132 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,560 I really pursued that all the way up until undergrad. 133 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,320 So philosophy, world religions, humanities, all about the human 134 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,440 condition, especially getting people to think and convene 135 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,640 together for discussions. That was endlessly fascinating. 136 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,800 It continues to be after a first run in undergrad with an 137 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,720 Illinois college. I just wanted a more honestly 138 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,000 intense education experience. I wanted to give it everything I 139 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,120 had. I wanted to to get out of that 140 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,960 experience everything that I put into it. 141 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,800 And I found that in a private mentorship with Philosopharian 142 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,160 in the tiny little coastal town Astoria. 143 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,360 OR for those of you out there that have seen The Goonies, it 144 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,960 was filmed there. So that's a cool little bit of 145 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,320 trivia. Philosopharian's a non profit. 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,679 Yeah, they're a non profit out there. 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,360 And, you know, I followed that dream and and that's where it 148 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:37,919 took me. Wow. 149 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,159 That's cool. So you ended up at community 150 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,680 relations service. So was that like your first job 151 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:48,200 out of college? Did you do other things before 152 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,760 then? How did you end up there? 153 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,880 After studying philosophy and world religions, that's when the 154 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,480 2016 election cycle was happening. 155 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,800 So in that period of transition, because I took a gap year 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,080 between studying philosophy and conflict resolution, there was 157 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,560 this big intersection, right where I had a gap year. 158 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,200 I could really think about what I wanted to do with my career 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,680 and my studies. And I had already put so much 160 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,160 into it. And I was witnessing what we 161 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,680 were all witnessing, right? This mass civil unrest. 162 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,440 The short of the long is I, I had to do something about that. 163 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,640 I couldn't just stand by and watch while all of this rest was 164 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,360 happening. And you know, it was, I was a 165 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,840 young man at the time, you know, 19/20/21 watching this happen 166 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,040 like I've never known, you know, civic life to be like that. 167 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,760 So I decided to major in conflict resolution down the 168 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,680 road at Portland State University. 169 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:39,960 And a lot of that kind of intersected as well with kind of 170 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,200 philosophy of Gandhi and civil disobedience. 171 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,760 You know, how, how is it that we organize and produce change and 172 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,160 ultimately resolve our conflicts without using violence, Right. 173 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,280 And so Fast forward, I came back to San Antonio after graduating. 174 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:55,440 I published some research in the field. 175 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,280 I worked a couple different jobs while I was consulting on the 176 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:03,160 side and about, let's see, five years into doing that, I was 177 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,480 offered the job at DOJ. Very cool. 178 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,600 So tell us a little bit about your job at DOJ. 179 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,520 What, what did you do at Community Relations Service? 180 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:13,640 We have talked with Jordan before, so we got a little bit 181 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,440 of that, but what did you do there? 182 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,680 Yeah. So I was a conciliator which, 183 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,800 you know, we we simply define as the mediation component. 184 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,320 And you know, CRS Community Relations Service is the 185 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,600 mediation component of DOJ. So they're very much as an Iron 186 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,160 Curtain between the investigative and the 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,280 prosecutorial parts of the Department of Justice. 188 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,240 So sometimes I would think to myself, well, this, this is a 189 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,320 very different phone call, you know, a conciliator calling a 190 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,000 mayor or a police chief or something like that. 191 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,160 Then it would be for the attorney general or one of their 192 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,800 staff. It's just a very different kind 193 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,320 of conversation. And I think that really is best 194 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,800 described through the pillars of the service. 195 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,520 So it's impartial, right? OK, that's pretty 196 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,880 straightforward. But it's also confidential, like 197 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,880 it would be in any mediation. So it's a it's a private 198 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,840 conversation and we don't produce any kind of 199 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,120 corroborating evidence of any kind. 200 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,000 Like I said, there's a Iron Curtain there, and voluntary and 201 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,840 free, of course, publicly funded. 202 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,440 The voluntary part is huge, right? 203 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,280 Because when we engage in these conversations that are often 204 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,280 very sensitive because they have to do with public disputes, 205 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,680 there's a lot of hesitation usually around engaging, you 206 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:24,360 know, the Department of Justice is the first thing that people 207 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,000 hear, no matter how many times you explain forward and 208 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040 backward. I'm a mediator, I'm with CRS, 209 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,720 I'm, I'm not a litigator. I didn't even get a law degree. 210 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,840 So those are the pillars and the services that we offer, 211 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,840 training, logistical support, mediation, facilitation. 212 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,800 So we're basically giving people the tools, the resources, and 213 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,200 then ultimately offering the capacity for dealing with 214 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,320 disputes because most cities, organizations, whatever, you 215 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,640 know, public entities it might be or private, they're not used 216 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,000 to dealing with these things, at least not at that scale. 217 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,000 So we come in and add the capacity to help them do it, but 218 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,120 we do it as third party impartials. 219 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,840 We're not here to tell people what to do, how to do it, 220 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,480 whether to engage or not, but we're here to make sure that 221 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,080 they have access if they do want to, and to make sure that that 222 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,280 access remains peaceful. That is cool. 223 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,200 And it seems so very needed. And I know like, it was formed 224 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,800 through the Civil Rights Act and today there's not much of 225 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,280 community relations service, if anything at all is still there. 226 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:31,360 So how would these tools have been used in this environment? 227 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,160 Thank you for that question. There's a number of different 228 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,760 ways that it could be used. I'll humble myself and condition 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,600 my answer based on the fact that I was still very much in new 230 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,680 conciliator training. It's not that I don't know what 231 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,600 mediation is. I do, I do it for a living. 232 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,160 I've been doing it for years. That being said, it's a it's a 233 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,600 different kind of thing when doing it for the federal 234 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,400 government or folks that are very worried about are we being 235 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,680 investigated, right. And so that perception is not 236 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,040 superficial. It's, it's very central and 237 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,680 foundational to the work. So that's the first condition. 238 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:05,680 And the second condition before I speak is it really comes down 239 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:07,640 to the communities. What do they want? 240 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,920 How did they see their role? What are their objectives and 241 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,400 goals? What are their concerns? 242 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,120 What are all these things? And I can't know that from the 243 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,240 outset and from the outside. So I can imagine a couple 244 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,480 different ways that it would maybe go and probably look, but 245 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,880 I'll just say that. So what I imagined communities 246 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,240 would want is to first of all, just establish clarity. 247 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,000 There's so much lack of transparency around what 248 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,280 happened in Minneapolis. In fact, I wrote all about this 249 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,320 in my recent publication with the Fed Up. 250 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,600 But transparency was severely lacking. 251 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,000 There was massive discrepancies between the video that people 252 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,080 could see regardless of their widespread perceptions about it 253 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,760 and what the officials were saying at one time and then what 254 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,520 they said a week later and two and three weeks later, etcetera. 255 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,640 So the clarity to make up for that lack of transparency is 256 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,400 huge. And the other thing I would say 257 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,920 without going too much in depth is fair process. 258 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,520 People want to know if you apply for a job application, for 259 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,080 example, I'm making a simple example, but it's the same 260 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,640 principle. They want to know what criteria 261 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,160 will be used to assess their candidacy. 262 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,200 That's part of how it feels fair. 263 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,920 If people don't know what the dimensions are in the process, 264 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,120 if it feels like a black box, that is going to produce a lack 265 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,200 of trust. And I would imagine in this 266 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,520 situation, there has been a lot of conflict between the 267 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,080 individuals in the community and the federal agents that are 268 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,360 present. But there's also been conflict 269 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,920 between the community leaders, right? 270 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,320 The chief of police in Minneapolis has been very 271 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,440 outspoken. The mayor has been outspoken, 272 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,800 the governor. That seems like an area where 273 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,880 community relations services would have been really well 274 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,080 positioned to build trust faster between those local officials 275 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,960 and federal officials to try and maybe build a bridge there that 276 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:03,840 they could use to extend outreach into the community. 277 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Is that sort of one of the things that we would have 278 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,520 expected? Absolutely added capacity for 279 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,320 the back end for like you mentioned, Phil, that the 280 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,120 intergroup conflicts can be very beneficial for the community. 281 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,760 So giving everyone the the ability to, you know, the local 282 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,440 officials to make sure they're on the same page, they're 283 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,200 pursuing the same strategy for the same objectives. 284 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,720 That's critical right before they send out a message that may 285 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,120 very well be at odds with another agency or another 286 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,360 official up the chain of command, right? 287 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,800 So that's really big, especially when you have different right, 288 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,000 you've got local, state and federal. 289 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,360 I'm not going to say they're they're necessarily pursuing 290 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,720 different objectives, but at least the perception to perceive 291 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,960 that is certainly there, which means there's a risk, there's 292 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,040 potential for fear. There's all these things. 293 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,480 And that's where we come in and say, Hey, we understand what the 294 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,480 sensitivities are. What can we do? 295 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,120 How can we help as people that don't have a horse in the race 296 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,440 to make sure everyone's, you know, unified? 297 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,480 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I just think those open 298 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,400 lines of communication are so, so important and so needed. 299 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,960 At least it feels like to me. Those lines of communication 300 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,480 have all been blocked, if not completely shut down in some 301 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,920 cases. It's really, it's, it's a sad 302 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,120 thing to watch and to try and figure out how how we can get 303 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,200 involved as well. But going back to community 304 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,000 relations service and your job there. 305 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,240 So you said you took the second deferred resignation. 306 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,880 So why did you choose to take the deferred resignation? 307 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,560 I was forced out, full stop. I was forced out. 308 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,400 I I tried tooth and nail. Yeah. 309 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,880 I tried tooth and nail to stay like many of my colleagues did. 310 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,840 I mean, I think this is true for anyone of public service. 311 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,560 You know, we we're dedicated to the mission. 312 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,080 We believe in the work. One of the first things that I 313 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,920 was told at the beginning was we know you could be making a lot 314 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,320 more money in the private sector. 315 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,560 Thank you for being here. Thank you for contributing your 316 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:00,240 talents. Yeah. 317 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Yeah. So you know that that that sense 318 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,440 of civic duty is definitely there for me and especially for 319 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,079 CRS. Every conciliator comes in with 320 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:13,040 a unique story. I mean, people don't kind of 321 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,200 wake up and say I want to run head first in the conflict and 322 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,599 most people don't even know that there's a conflict resolution 323 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,880 degree or field, etcetera. So all that is to say that I, I 324 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,319 absolutely wanted to be there. I was not going to let that go 325 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,400 at the first sight of trouble or the first offer to leave, 326 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,080 especially, you know, in a kind of throw up your hands type of 327 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,320 way. So the first DRP came around and 328 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,160 it was basically an eye roll. I said like, no big deal. 329 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,720 This is like another credit card offer in the mail, like RIP it 330 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,680 up and throw it away. Like thanks, have a good one. 331 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,600 Yeah, whatever. And I, I thought nothing of it. 332 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,720 It was shocking in the sense of what's happening. 333 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,200 What is this mean for the Merit Systems Protection Board? 334 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,720 There's all these questions that are absolutely there. 335 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,720 But in terms of what am I going to do about it? 336 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,720 No, nothing at all, right? Just go about your business, 337 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,000 remain loyal to the Constitution, my oath, the 338 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,320 mission of the agency. So hard pass. 339 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,040 But after that, the risks just continued to grow. 340 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,240 You know, we're watching everything happening with USAID 341 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,920 and other organizations. The list goes on and on, right? 342 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,120 Like, put them in. Trauma is what we want to do. 343 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,440 I felt in many ways between the 1st and the the second DRP like 344 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,160 I've been hit by a car and I was hanging on the roof. 345 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,200 And I know this from experience. I've literally been hit by a 346 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,960 car. I was hanging on the roof and 347 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,040 that, you know, the officials were just swerving wildly left 348 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,040 to right while I was hanging on. We're all hanging on and it was 349 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,000 this wild experience. As the risk grew, that's when 350 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,840 the not only the considerations, but the objective reality 351 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,640 started to change. My bad. 352 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,600 Now my wet now for those negotiation folks out there, 353 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,040 that started to change. And as it did, it just 354 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,280 ultimately ended up being something where I couldn't 355 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,920 afford, literally, I couldn't afford the risk of staying and 356 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,480 everything that that could mean. Yeah, that's like I said, you 357 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,240 have to weigh your risks. You have to weigh your options 358 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,240 and do what's best for you, even when that's not really what you 359 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:14,920 want to do. Yeah. 360 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960 So what are you doing now? What have you been doing? 361 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,680 Yeah. So I took the DRP in April. 362 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,280 I went back into development mode for my private business, 363 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,240 Mosaic Collaborative Consulting. And the history of that was all 364 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,080 kinds of disputes and capacity building services. 365 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,080 And then over the years, especially 23/20/24 and you 366 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,720 know, when I resumed back in 2025, I started to niche down 367 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,800 and focus and really offer more development and research in the 368 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,800 field of housing dispute resolution. 369 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,400 So I ended up producing a novel program called Housing Shield. 370 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,960 Now, since trademarked, what it is, is we offer proactive 371 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,160 dispute resolution for housing providers and their residents, 372 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,040 including between residents themselves, so roommates, 373 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,640 neighbors. The idea there is if we can get 374 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,600 in early, we can make services fast, affordable, and pretty 375 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,760 streamlined. Then it makes a lot of sense. 376 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,560 Or threats to housing stability. So yeah, Housing Shield is my 377 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,600 main focus. It's been a few years in 378 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,800 development now and we have like 6000 plus units now kind of 379 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:23,880 under. Contract. 380 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,400 So we provide services for those folks and yeah, anywhere where 381 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,960 needed otherwise. That is really cool, especially 382 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,160 in today's economy where we've seen kind of a downturn. 383 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,160 We've seen it's affordability has definitely impacted the 384 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,760 housing market. I know here in LA it is wildly 385 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,720 expensive here and we live in an area that has rent control, 386 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,880 which means you have some issues with landlords not wanting to 387 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,920 get the here to certain units because somebody'd been living 388 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,320 there for 30 years and so they're not paying as much in 389 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,800 rent as somebody else. It's very difficult to be able 390 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,240 to maintain that habitability. And litigation is expensive, 391 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,280 right? So finding an alternative to 392 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,480 that, not just a money saver, but I think as you've hit on 393 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,480 several times, people don't necessarily want to move out of 394 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,800 their homes when things like this happen, right? 395 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,480 But if you sue somebody like that, trust is that's a hard 396 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,440 thing to get back. Whereas through the mitigation 397 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,880 process, the mediation process, that seems like it would help to 398 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,400 make sure you're not just finding a way to stay, but 399 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,800 you're also rebuilding trust. And that's something that I 400 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,680 think you mentioned it when I was reading your your article 401 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,200 with Jordan, like these lessons extend to all types of conflict. 402 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,680 It's not just housing. It's the same lessons that we 403 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,120 could learn right now with the government. 404 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:56,040 Finding ways to build that trust to enter into these mediation 405 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,360 type agreements would probably help a lot all over. 406 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,760 That's exactly right. The, the mitigation process, I'm 407 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,160 glad that you bring up that framing because that, that is a 408 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,400 lot of the framing that I use. We don't want risks to come up 409 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,120 and we, we try to anticipate them as best as we can. 410 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,520 And then we just kind of cross our fingers and hope it doesn't 411 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,880 rain today, right? But sooner or later they come 412 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,720 up. That's how that's how it works. 413 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,040 That's how the math pencils out. And when that happens, most 414 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,680 people are not in a position to be able to just absorb those 415 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,000 risks. You know, Jill, you bring up LA, 416 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000 the rent board, the rent control. 417 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,560 I've actually, you know, handled hundreds of disputes out of the 418 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,040 San Francisco area. So I'm very familiar with how 419 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,240 that looks. And I see the tension on the one 420 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,160 hand, between the approach taken in places like California with 421 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,320 strong renter protections and then places like Texas, where 422 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,640 it's quite the opposite. And, you know, it's not to say 423 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:49,680 that one's better than the other. 424 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,160 There are pros and cons, but you see the tensions come up in 425 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,480 different ways. So in a place like San Antonio 426 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,080 without rent ordinances, you know, renters are feeling a lot 427 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,240 of the pressure and how that might show up is a renter that, 428 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:09,040 you know, is paying more than the HUD recommended 30% or of 429 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,680 their income on their unit, They really can't afford it. 430 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,560 But they're stuck in place. They're frozen, as it were, 431 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,240 because they can't afford the first and last or the security 432 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,840 deposit to move out. So this is like a kind of a 433 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,600 latent risk. And then here comes one surprise 434 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,000 medical bill or, you know, losing your job like many of us 435 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,040 did in the DRP or whatever else. It might be a divorce, a 436 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,840 breakup, name it. And now all of a sudden that 437 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,200 issue is spiraling because it was like a forest fire with a 438 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,560 lot of ground shrubbery and it becomes the landlords problem. 439 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,240 So we get in there as soon as it happens and put it out quick, as 440 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,800 fast as possible. I love that getting ahead of a 441 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,200 problem is absolutely the best way. 442 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:54,400 I think the putting out the fire early analogy really, really 443 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,120 connects here in Los Angeles. Yes. 444 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,360 Yeah, I know some both out there and it's, it's a tough 445 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,920 situation, but yeah, mediation has kind of helped come to the 446 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,120 rescue. As a matter of fact, one of the 447 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,240 first things I thought about after feeling the grief of all 448 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,840 the fires in Lai thought to a couple years ago about the fires 449 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,560 in Hawaii. Hawaii has a massive mediation 450 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,480 program set up just for these fires and dealing with the 451 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,320 aftermath, right? Because the litigation literally 452 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,720 would balloon to never end. In fact, that's exactly what we 453 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,760 saw with the Baltimore Bridge. The litigation amounts and then 454 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,360 the the cost of pursuing resolution adds so much to the 455 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,560 cost that it's a compounding effect and you never get ahead 456 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,080 of it, right? So mediation becomes critical to 457 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,840 dealing with these things. Absolutely. 458 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,880 So you're doing great things now. 459 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,160 It's really positive. But would you ever go back to 460 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,280 federal service, to public service? 461 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,440 Yeah. I mean, the first I just have to 462 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,640 like sigh of relief, but then also sigh of, like, hesitation. 463 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,240 I think the feeling there is almost more important than the 464 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,520 thoughts. But conditionally, yes, I would 465 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,200 do it if the conditions were right. 466 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,560 And I say that not just for personal reasons around how I 467 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,680 was left in the sour taste and, you know, the relief of leaving 468 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,960 and the thought of going back, you know, given the sour taste 469 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,360 in my mouth. Even all of that aside, my role 470 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,600 as a conciliator and in the environment of dealing with 471 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,960 public trust, as a mediator, a servant to that public trust, 472 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,840 I'm in a very sensitive kind of position. 473 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,280 The conditions have to just be right. 474 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,560 There's an analogy here where if if folks haven't seen the movie 475 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,760 Bridge of Spies with Tom Hanks, I highly recommend it. 476 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,800 It really captures kind of the spirit of what we do, and it's 477 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,520 based on a true story. I won't give the plot away, but 478 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,680 it's a fantastic movie about how it is that we kind of work 479 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,440 across differences, especially when there is no existing 480 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,880 structure for doing so or when that exists structure has been 481 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,760 compromised kind of like we're seeing now. 482 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,920 So it comes back to trust what you know, what you can find that 483 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,200 the other side values and how you can work with that. 484 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,040 So coming back to the DRPI think that the public trust has to be 485 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,880 there and the the situation has to kind of be ripe for service. 486 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,240 There's a lot of disputes that mediation isn't appropriate for, 487 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,400 or at least not yet, at least not in that particular phase. 488 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,560 For example, I'll just bring up a simple one. 489 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,000 If a case has yet to be filed, it's very right for mediation. 490 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,880 No attorneys, no discovery happening once it's been filed, 491 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,200 discovery is happening. And very often mediation can be 492 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,000 used as a kind of data mining, right? 493 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Let's just get the other side to tip their hand. 494 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,880 We'll see what they're working with, and then we'll nail them, 495 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,880 right? So after a certain amount of 496 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,680 that discovery has happened, then it becomes possible to 497 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,040 negotiate in good faith and produce a real durable solution, 498 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,480 but not before. And so I think the same kind of 499 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,560 thing is happening where we just need to see a certain level of 500 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,440 public reckoning, whatever that may look like. 501 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,800 I don't know. That's for the people to decide, 502 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,240 you know, collectively, but with more trust in the process and an 503 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,360 understanding of what really mediation is and why it matters 504 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,840 under those conditions, I would go back. 505 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,360 This, this sounds like a theme that we've heard from a lot of 506 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:23,120 people is, you know, it's going to take a lot of change before 507 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,400 it feels like a safe thing to do. 508 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,880 But I like the way that you're framing it. 509 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,760 I think there comes a point when hopefully we, we are through 510 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,000 this and we're ready to rebuild as as a country. 511 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,320 And there's a lot of trust that has been broken, both between 512 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,640 communities and their governments, but also between 513 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,760 between us as a country and our partners around the world. 514 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,440 There is a future where there's a lot of opportunity to try and 515 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,520 rebuild that. And mediators would be a huge 516 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,320 part of that. I can't even begin to think of 517 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520 all of the ways that that would be really important. 518 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,520 But you're right, if it comes too soon, it's almost like it 519 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,520 won't feel authentic. It's like, OK, well, we did four 520 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,240 years of that, now let's all make up and do four years of 521 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,920 something. Say no, it's not going to be 522 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,760 that easy. There's going to have to be some 523 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,480 things that change before that really feels like something 524 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,920 people can put trust in. Absolutely. 525 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,280 I mean, case in point, if a mediator shows up, they are 526 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,760 fully qualified, They're no conflicts of interest. 527 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,200 They're the perfect mediator on paper, but the parties don't for 528 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,320 whatever reason, trust them. It cannot work, full stop. 529 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,560 So I could show up and say, hey, I've, I've done this before. 530 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,000 I've been a conciliator and I, I work with people, you know, of 531 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720 all different kinds of ideologies and persuasions and 532 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,240 religions and walks of life. I can do this. 533 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,640 They still have to kind of appoint me as it were. 534 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,600 And if that doesn't happen, then I'm just not going to be an 535 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,400 effective mediator. Merriam Webster should probably 536 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,560 make it the word of the year. Retribution, right? 537 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,520 It's been the theme of this administration, but a lot of 538 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,720 people are already talking about how one day there will need to 539 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,600 be retribution for what is going on now, and that's not the right 540 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,280 environment for mediation. I will say this, some level of 541 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,640 reconciliation needs to happen. I think it's a fitting term that 542 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,320 we were called conciliators and not mediators. 543 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,840 A lot of the transformation that happens in mediation, it comes 544 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,800 back to a fundamental recognition that we can't change 545 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,200 the past. We can start to make the future, 546 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,240 but it starts with accepting that we can't change the past, 547 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,200 whatever that may look like. Small claim, you know, 548 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,920 mediation, the tenant pays everything plus mediation fees, 549 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,160 or the landlord pays for the move out. 550 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,440 Or in these mass cases, it could look like all kinds of things. 551 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,040 January 6th prosecutions. It can look like truth and 552 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,160 reconciliation panels. It can look like the release of 553 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 files that otherwise would have been held confidential. 554 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,320 It could look like all kinds of things. 555 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,960 But we have to determine that in ways that are creative, 556 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,120 forward-looking, not in ways that remain looking backward, 557 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,920 because otherwise the shadow of the past holds the future 558 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,760 hostage. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. 559 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,920 Yeah. It reminds me of so I did AI did 560 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,160 a study abroad in Tanzania. We attended the Rwandan genocide 561 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,640 trials that were being held there in Arusha, right. 562 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,800 And it's very different, but it there are a lot of lessons that 563 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,200 can be learned from that in a time like this. 564 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,840 And there the important thing that all of the locals 565 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,680 emphasized was that, you know, Western justice can't be the 566 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,480 answer to an African conflict. There are very different 567 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,520 expectations of what reconciliation looks like and 568 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,880 you know how they move forward. And I think whatever does come 569 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,240 of this has to come in a form that makes sense to Americans 570 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,000 and broadly appeals to an American sense of justice. 571 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,800 Yeah, I love that you bring up the international component 572 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,720 because I know very little about international relations. 573 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,440 I never studied it. I keep an eye on these things 574 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,800 now, you know, recognizing the very real impact that these 575 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,200 things have, learning from the lessons of our neighbors through 576 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,280 some of these studies and the forced sacrifices that they've 577 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,920 had to make is a very wise thing to do. 578 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,880 And I think that any country can benefit from doing that, 579 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840 especially us as Americans. What do our neighbors to the 580 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,880 east and West, North and South have to teach us about these 581 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,200 things so that we don't have to go through them if we don't have 582 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:29,520 to? Yeah. 583 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320 Well, Alec, is there anything else that you'd like to share 584 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,240 with us before before we sign off today? 585 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,400 I just want to leave it on a more positive note. 586 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,920 I am myself and am a very optimistic person and very 587 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,840 relentlessly so. I'm a stubborn optimist and I 588 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,600 and I say that from a sense of pragmatic optimism, right? 589 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:49,960 We still have to make these things work. 590 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,840 We can't just live in dreamland. Continue to see the good in the 591 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,600 people to the left and to the right of you, regardless of 592 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,280 whatever uniforms they might wear or persuasions they may 593 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,640 have. That's how the best of us are 594 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,880 brought about, right? That's how our or better angels 595 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,320 come out. And these people that we may 596 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,360 disagree with, they still have power over our communities 597 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,240 whether we like them or not. So it really would would be wise 598 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,720 of us to engage them all the same. 599 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,760 So just continue to see the better parts of your, of your 600 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,400 colleagues and your neighbors. Thank you. 601 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,720 I like that. Thank you so much. 602 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,520 All right. Well, Alec, thanks for joining 603 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,000 us today and thanks for working off with us. 604 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,880 All right. Well, that was good. 605 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,040 I enjoyed that. I know, right? 606 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,720 Since we talked to Alec, there was a whistleblower complaint 607 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,000 involving CRS. Yeah. 608 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,120 Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 609 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,040 Yeah, there was. A former senior official from 610 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,400 Community Relations Service filed A whistleblower complaint 611 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,160 stating that the Department of Justice had misled a federal 612 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,720 court by failing to turn over internal warnings that 613 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,680 dismantling CRS was legally indefensible and operationally 614 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,120 impossible. Representative Jamie Raskin sent 615 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,480 a letter to Pam Bondi AG Pam Bondi on March 12th of this 616 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,480 year, which was a couple of weeks after we talked with Alec. 617 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,080 Representative Raskin actually stated in his letter. 618 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,120 CRS was built for exactly the kind of moment we are living 619 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,080 through. Before the administration 620 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,600 dismantled it, CRS had a full time specialist in Minnesota and 621 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,120 could have surged additional conciliators from across the 622 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,920 Midwest. Within hours, CRS could have 623 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,200 been on the ground with impartial mediators as crises 624 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,760 unfolded in Minneapolis and could have served as the 625 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,880 confidential peacemakers Congress designed them to be. 626 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,000 Right like that's it. That states it all right there. 627 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,320 That is the group that we need in a time like we are living 628 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,840 through. Absolutely. 629 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,320 Instead, it's pretty clear that the federal government is not 630 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,120 willing to actually engage with community. 631 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,440 Yeah, but we were talking about like, So what to look for? 632 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,480 So is the Department of Justice actually going to give a 633 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,760 reasonable response to this? I don't think we're going to see 634 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,600 that, seeing as how they're starting cases against 635 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,679 nonprofits. They're investigating all of 636 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,880 these random things. Yeah, I think there will 637 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,760 definitely be more of these 2339 cases, these material support 638 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,639 cases against rioters or even peaceful protesters. 639 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,880 At some point. They won't stop with people who 640 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,440 were doing graffiti. They'll come up with something. 641 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,760 And most of the protests that we have seen have been peaceful, 642 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,120 but for the government to basically say we don't want to 643 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,800 come to the table, you just need to do what we say. 644 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,159 Yeah, and that's the message. That is, that is the message and 645 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,719 we can hope for the courts to intervene, but going through the 646 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,640 court system takes a long time. And it assumes that the final 647 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,320 outcome will be something that the administration will comply 648 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,360 with, which we've already seen. They will just find some excuse 649 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,840 to do it in a slightly different way and start the clock over. 650 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,960 But you know, we don't just have to sit around, no. 651 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,840 And we don't have to just sit and watch, no. 652 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,240 We can actually do things. That don't involve burning 653 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,000 waymos. Yes, that do not involve burning 654 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,720 waymos that don't involve, you know, spraying graffiti unless 655 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:28,600 you've been paid to a mural. Is that graffiti? 656 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,280 If you were paid to, I think that's just called. 657 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,760 Art. I mean, you're a graffiti artist 658 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,800 though. That's true. 659 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:35,920 I don't. Know, I don't know. 660 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,040 I don't somebody wants to let us know in the comments would be. 661 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,720 Great, someone let us know. But there are there are things 662 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,000 you can do Anna Mitchell was so right. 663 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,120 Get involved with your community and use social media, use what 664 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:55,160 is at your disposal to share and to share legitimate news with 665 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,480 others. Because you don't know who's 666 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,960 going to see that. And they know you and they trust 667 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:01,640 you. And they may come back and they 668 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,440 may ask you, hey, can you tell me more about this? 669 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,480 It's little pieces along the way that will help us all come 670 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,360 together. So we were talking earlier and I 671 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920 was saying, oh, yeah, I read this thing where somebody was 672 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,480 talking about social media, and they were like Martin Luther and 673 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,800 Alexander Hamilton. They used the social media of 674 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,680 the day. You know, Martin Luther nailed 675 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,840 thesis on the church door. That's where people would go to 676 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,040 read, read the news, read the cool things that were going on. 677 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,320 And Alexander Hamilton would write essays, and people would 678 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,520 pass them out. I love this plan. 679 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,600 I have a hammer, I have nails. Let's go. 680 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,240 OK, OK, OK. We don't have to go nail things 681 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:46,240 on doors right now. OK, But you got Insta, you got 682 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,520 threads, you got blue sky, You can put things out there for 683 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,720 people to see. As a matter of fact, they even 684 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:54,160 wrote The Federalist Papers in pseudonym. 685 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,160 Nobody knew who the original authors were at the time. 686 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,840 That's great, just like Anonymous. 687 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:00,240 Maybe a little. Different. 688 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,720 A little different. So there are things you can do, 689 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:05,760 like use your voice. But Philip, what else can we do? 690 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,200 Alec had a lot of really good suggestions and insight himself. 691 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,280 I think the most important thing he said is there's going to come 692 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,640 a time for reconciliation, and that word is really important. 693 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,520 There have been a lot of R words thrown around. 694 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,640 A lot of people have talked about retribution. 695 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:27,000 I want to make a case for removing the word retribution 696 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,920 from our lexicon, and especially for journalism because a lot of 697 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,200 people have been calling what the Trump administration is 698 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,960 doing retribution. When we actually look at that 699 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640 word, it's an old fashioned form of justice. 700 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,400 It's out of style. I'm not advocating for it, but 701 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,920 it's an eye for an eye. You committed a wrong and 702 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,560 therefore an equal punishment will be imposed upon you. 703 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:54,120 So Old Testament style. Which I think we learned was not 704 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,160 the best way to go about justice. 705 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,360 But even then, that assumes that there a valid wrong committed 706 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,240 that warranted some sort of punishment. 707 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:06,800 That's not what's been going on. What's been going on? 708 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,400 It's revenge. This is Trump and his friends 709 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,160 getting back at all the people who he feels like have wronged 710 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,240 him. Reconciliation is different. 711 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:20,800 Reconciliation is actually looking for a way to make sure 712 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,880 that everyone who has been aggrieved is able to feel like a 713 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,320 sense of justice has come. It's done in a measured way. 714 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,080 That's where we need to be going. 715 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,920 And I want to highlight another thing that Alex said. 716 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,760 He said to engage with the people who have power over us. 717 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,880 And that's extremely important. It's what you just talked about 718 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,920 directly addressing the challenges that we face through 719 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,400 platforms like social media. You can at your heart out at 720 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,960 federal social media accounts. It's not going to do anything. 721 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,360 But within your communities, there's your local government, 722 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,280 you're in the local police, there's your state government, 723 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,760 You probably have some sort of state police and Investigative 724 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,680 ServiceNow is a very good time for people to actually start 725 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,040 getting engaged with them, getting engaged with their 726 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,880 Congress people, because that communication is what is 727 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,920 important. And it's also what is going to 728 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,360 someday inform that reconciliation process. 729 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,880 It's what's going to make sure that when the time comes to make 730 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,600 the plan to do the things that they have the information. 731 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,200 Another thing, start collecting evidence for when that time 732 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,160 comes as well. When you see some crazy video 733 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,320 online about some wrong that was committed, it's probably going 734 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,680 to get deleted. Make a copy, write down where 735 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,520 you got it from. Keep notes. 736 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,320 Philip will be happy to provide a training for you if you would 737 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,240 like to learn how to do this. Yeah, there are a lot of good 738 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:51,040 resources that people can use to do those kinds of things, but it 739 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,600 is going to be very important someday that there's actual 740 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,240 physical evidence to support those types of efforts. 741 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,960 And first hand accounts. Write it down, take a video, do 742 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,040 whatever it's it's a. Voice No. 743 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,360 It's something that Philip and I have felt very strongly about, 744 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,600 and that's why we're doing this podcast, is to record what is 745 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,760 happening while what's happening. 746 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,520 Yeah. All right. 747 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,440 So we've got opportunities to use our voice. 748 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:22,920 Like Alex said, we should be looking to people locally who 749 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,800 have power. We should start engaging with 750 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,520 them. We should start being part of 751 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,080 the dialogue, being part of that conversation. 752 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,880 Start being aware of what has been happening to know what 753 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,400 could be restored and make a record for yourself. 754 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,200 History is going to need it. One more time for the record, 755 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,040 Hammer and nails, yes or no? I'm going to go with no. 756 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,600 OK, OK, I'm going to go with no. I think you can stick to the 757 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,000 social media platforms we have. OK. 758 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,560 All right, Well, everyone have a great month and we'll see you 759 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,640 soon. Thanks for forking off with us. 760 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,320 Thanks for. Tuning in to this episode of 761 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,840 Forking Off. If you're a former Fed with a 762 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,920 story to tell, or you're wrestling with your own ethical 763 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,200 crossroads, reach out to us at info@forkingoff.com. 764 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,240 Today's episode was created, produced. 765 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,160 And edited by Jill and Phillip Fields. 766 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,560 You can find more information about this episode at 767 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,080 forkingoff.com. Follow us on Instagram. 768 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,880 TikTok Blue Sky. Mastodon. 769 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:24,760 LinkedIn. Or. 770 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,760 Wherever you get your podcasts.