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What the fork? 
OK, OK, let's try this again. 

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Welcome to Forking Off the 
podcast by former feds who got 

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the fork out. 
I'm Jill Fields. 

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And I'm Philip Fields. 
Now before we get started, make 

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sure to hit the follow button. 
You can find all our content and

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show notes on our website 
forkingoff.com. 

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And if you enjoy what we do and 
want to help, consider 

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supporting us on Kofi. 
This season we're going to be 

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doing things a little 
differently. 

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We're still going to be 
interviewing former feds and 

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sharing their stories, but we're
going to focus more on how 

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they're continuing to serve and 
what we can learn from their 

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expertise. 
All right, so today's episode, 

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we're going to be interviewing 
Dan Tully. 

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Dan is running for the US House 
of Representatives for Seaton, 

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Illinois. 
We're going to talk to Dan in a 

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in a few minutes. 
But before we get started, 

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there's been a lot of talk. 
Philip, you we've talked a lot 

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about voter fraud conspiracies. 
What's going on there? 

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Yeah, I keep getting people 
asking about stolen elections. 

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People are still asking about 
2020, but now for some reason 

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people are asking about whether 
2024 was stolen by Trump. 

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Oh, So what are these different 
ones? 

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There's a claim that there were 
more votes than registered 

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voters in some districts. 
Where was that? 

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That was like Pennsylvania or 
something. 

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No, that was Wisconsin. 
Yeah, that was in Wisconsin. 

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I think a lot of it came from 
Milwaukee County. 

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There were these 4 wards in Oak 
Creek. 

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They had 100% of registered 
voters, plus a few cast ballots.

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And so people were like, what? 
That's weird. 

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But what you need to know about 
Wisconsin is you can actually 

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register to vote the day. 
Like you can show up at the 

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polling place and register and 
cast your vote. 

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That's. 
Awesome. 

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And so these were pretty small 
voter districts. 

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They had like 1800 ish people 
registered to vote. 

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So in one there were like 1006 
registered voters, 1019 ballots 

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were cast. 
So it's not hard to believe that

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like, maybe not all of the 
actual registered voters voted, 

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but maybe 100 people showed up 
and registered and cast their 

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ballots, and that pushed them 
less than 20 over what? 

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What the actual? 
Register of what? 

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The actual and, and it's that 
same way across these four 

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different wards in Milwaukee 
County. 

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The actual number is usually 
within about 25 of what the 

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registered voters were. 
That's not weird. 

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Once you understand that, like, 
it makes sense. 

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People were really motivated to 
get out and vote that election. 

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And so people who hadn't voted 
in the past showed up and said, 

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hey, I want to do this, OK. 
Well, hey, that's great. 

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Great to know that some places 
you can register to vote the day

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of. 
OK, well what about there were 

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some claims that there were more
registered voters than voting 

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age people in the state? 
So that was Wisconsin again. 

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And they do this interesting 
thing in Wisconsin where they 

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never purge names from the voter
rolls, even if you move out of 

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state, even if you die, they 
just mark you inactive. 

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And so that actually helps them 
to track when somebody is no 

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longer allowed to vote, because 
if somebody shows up and says, 

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hey, I want to vote of so and so
they can look right there and 

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say, you're supposed to be dead.
Right. 

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Well, I mean, that's that's a 
good thing to be able to say no.

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And so in Wisconsin, the voter 
roll number keeps growing. 

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It's like 8.3 million as of July
2025, but the voting age 

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population is 4.6 million, but 
the active voter list is 3.7 

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million. 
And so all of those extra 

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numbers are just people who 
they're keeping on the list. 

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So that they can make sure these
people aren't trying to vote 

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without re registering. 
OK, so that explains that one. 

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OK, So the last thing I wanted 
to ask you about is there's this

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group Election Truth Alliance. 
They've put out some statistics 

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about statistical and 
probabilities. 

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I saw it last summer and asked 
you about it and. 

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Yeah, this one keeps coming up. 
I remember the first time, I 

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think you mentioned it first, 
and I just kind of blew it off 

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because I was like, this is 
ridiculous. 

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And and I was like, well, OK, if
there's something to this, we 

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will see more data start 
cropping up and we'll be able to

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see if there was. 
And then we didn't. 

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But I kept hearing about it from
other people. 

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So I was like, OK, I need to 
look closer at this. 

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It's this group, the Election 
Truth Alliance. 

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And they've been presenting 
statistical arguments that 

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suggest there was fraud in the 
2024 election. 

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And essentially, they're saying 
Trump couldn't have won the 

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seven swing states on the 
margins that he did. 

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And they're basing it on these 
academic models that were 

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developed by this professor at 
the University of Michigan, 

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Doctor Walter Mabane. 
And so he's developed these 

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models to identify anomalies in 
elections, and they get labeled 

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as fraud. 
But even he recognizes there are

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some fundamental ambiguities and
an inability to observe voter 

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intent. 
So he recognizes, though, these 

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two types of fraud, there's 
procedural fraud and realized 

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fraud. 
And for procedural fraud, he 

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gives examples like 
assassination attempts, long 

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lines at the polls, things that 
interrupt the flow of voting. 

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OK, so basically people just 
kind of not influencing but. 

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Well, and so it can be because 
the system is inefficient, or it

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could be intentional. 
But he recognizes it's not 

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really possible to tell the 
difference from the metrics that

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his models collect. 
And so he doesn't address 

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procedural fraud. 
He says there's no way of 

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knowing if it actually changes 
the actual vote count. 

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And so he focuses on realized 
fraud. 

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This results from what he calls 
malevolent distortion. 

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It's the misdirection or 
misallocation of votes compared 

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to voter intent. 
But if you remember, he says you

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can't actually observe voter 
intent. 

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So there's a lot of ambiguity 
even in this metric. 

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Then there's this thing that he 
calls strategic behavior when 

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voters change their behavior 
based on expectation of others 

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or the actions of campaigns or 
officials, and it changes voting

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patterns. 
And this can happen for a broad 

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range of reasons. 
And it intersects a lot with 

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procedural fraud and ends up 
looking like realized fraud. 

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This is stuff like the 
assassination attempt in Butler,

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PA, that was catalyzing event 
for Trump's base. 

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It also looks like the bomb 
threats that happened in 

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Philadelphia at some of the 
polling places that delayed 

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people's ability to vote. 
That's like a malevolent type of

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indicator. 
But you still can't actually 

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measure who decided not to go 
back and who did, right? 

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It's a really tricky one. 
But then there's also stuff like

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Kamala's late entry in the race.
Yeah, that changed voter 

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behavior. 
People who might have been more 

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or less inclined to vote for 
Biden. 

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Now Kamala's there, that changes
their calculus. 

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But then very. 
Different candidate. 

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Right. 
Yeah. 

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But then on top of that, there 
were some issues that came up at

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the last minute in the race that
impacted how some of her voters 

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had probably intended to vote. 
All of these things add up. 

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That is what creates this 
strategic behavior that this 

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model also can't account for. 
And it's super prevalent in 

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highly polarized 2 party systems
like the United States. 

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So in these systems, strategy 
looks a lot like fraud. 

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And that's why this model can't 
confidently say that there was 

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fraud in the election. 
But then even the Election Truth

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Alliance acknowledged that they 
went back and they did hand 

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counts in a lot of these 
precincts and the hand counts 

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matched the machine counts. 
And so there's their argument 

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is, well, we need to make sure 
that we're doing hand counts to 

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defend the election against this
type of fraud. 

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That doesn't actually address a 
lot of the potential influence 

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over the elections that might 
occur, right? 

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Doing hand counts isn't going to
tell you that people didn't come

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to vote because they were afraid
ICE was going to be there. 

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OK. 
It doesn't really address 

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information campaigns that are 
designed to increase partisan 

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divides. 
And so they make all of these 

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really wild arguments based on 
statistics, but then they give 

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this recommendation that has no 
impact act on election security.

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It's just not productive. 
We're going to be coming up on 

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midterms. 
Our guest, Dan Tully. 

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We will be talking with him more
about the elections and his 

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thoughts on it since 2024 
elections and especially like in

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March of last year when Trump 
put out an executive order of 

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preserving and protecting the 
integrity of American elections 

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and wanting to federalize or 
nationalize the elections. 

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The federal government does not 
run the elections. 

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That's state governments. 
It is Article 1, Section 4, 

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clause one of the Constitution, 
and it says the states are going

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to run the election. 
It has been very broadly 

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interpreted to all federal 
elections. 

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So federal government's role. 
Congress can make a law, make or

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alter laws and regulations on 
elections. 

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That's it. 
There is no independent role for

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the president in conducting 
elections. 

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None. 
None. 

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It does not vest with the 
executive power. 

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There is no inherent power of 
the president to do this. 

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 
But as far as midterms go, Trump

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is very concerned that the 
Republicans will lose the House 

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and the Senate, and he has 
already said he knows he'll be 

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impeached if that happens. 
So that is something to keep an 

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eye on. 
Yeah, there have been some 

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claims that they were going to 
have organizations like ICE at 

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the polling places, but there is
an actual federal law that 

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prevents law enforcement from 
being within a certain distance 

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of a polling place while 
elections are ongoing. 

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Yeah, you can't go in your 
official capacity. 

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You can go and vote if you are a
federal employee, but you cannot

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go secure the polling place. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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That that would be very illegal.
We're also starting to see a lot

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of people rehashing old 
conspiracy theories. 

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We can include some links in the
show notes to everybody who's 

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already debunked these. 
While we talk with Dan, he's 

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gonna highlight some indicators 
also to watch. 

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So what can we do though, Jill? 
What can we do? 

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Well, first of all, educate 
yourself. 

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Educate yourself about your 
candidates. 

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Educate yourself about voting in
your area. 

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How is voting set up? 
Where's your polling place? 

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Are you registered? 
And if you live in a place where

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there are local issues being 
considered, like here in 

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California, we have 
propositions. 

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Know what those are, Know what 
the impacts are. 

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Also, get involved in your 
community. 

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You can join civic groups. 
You can participate in voter 

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registration and drives. 
You can check your registration 

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status with your state. vote.org
is a great place to look if 

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you're, if you're not sure where
to look and you know, make use 

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of early voting. 
I know in California you can get

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a text saying hey, we've 
received your ballot. 

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I would actually say early 
voting is a big one for anybody 

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who is worried about if ICE 
tries to show up at polling 

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places and things like that. 
If you show up at a polling 

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place and you get detained, 
that's your. 

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Vote. 
But that's a good reason to take

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advantage of early voting or 
vote by mail and doing it far 

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enough in advance that you can 
make sure that you'll be safe 

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however you're doing that. 
Now, if you're voting by mail, 

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something that you need to be 
aware of is don't wait till the 

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last minute. 
There have been some changes 

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with the US Postal Service with 
their processes that could 

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possibly delay your voter 
registration, your ballot 

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application, the postmarks maybe
be later than you're expecting. 

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And most importantly, actually 
vote. 

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Vote. 
That is how you participate in 

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our democracy and in our 
government. 

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All right, let's roll the 
interview. 

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OK. 
Hi, Dan. 

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Thanks for joining us. 
Thank you both for having me, 

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really excited to talk with you.
Yeah, we're so excited to hear 

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about everything that you're up 
to lately, but why don't we go 

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ahead and get started with your 
bluff, your bottom line up 

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front? 
Absolutely. 

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I am a former federal civil 
servant. 

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I used to work for the US 
Department of Commerce and in 

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the foreign assistance and 
diplomacy space specifically. 

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I left the federal government in
March in protest of what this 

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00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,200
administration was doing to the 
foreign assistance space and to 

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the civil service at large. 
And now I am running for 

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00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,960
Congress in an open 
congressional seat here in 

237
00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:59,920
Chicagoland to restore the rule 
of law. 

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00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,040
And really excited to speak with
you further about not only the 

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00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,720
civil servant background, but 
also the steps that we could 

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00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,120
take in our government right now
to push back against not only 

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00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,360
this administration, but also to
stand up for our government and 

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and reshape the conditions for 
future success and democracy. 

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00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,360
I'm so excited and so excited 
that somebody that's a former 

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00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,600
civil servant is running for 
office. 

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00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,080
That's something we had talked 
with one of our previous guests,

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00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,440
Patty Hartman, who had worked 
for DOJ, and she was like, I 

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00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,800
encourage everyone. 
So we were so excited to have 

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00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,680
you here and you're doing this. 
So tell us a little bit more 

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00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,800
about your background and how 
you ended up in public service 

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00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,480
to begin with. 
Sounds great. 

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00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,640
I graduated law school back in 
2017 and I decided to take 2 

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00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,920
paths simultaneously. 1 I went 
to a big law firm as I had 

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00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,000
$200,000 of student loan debt to
pay off, but at the same time I 

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00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,000
went to the Army Reserve Jag 
Corps. 

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00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,920
Ended up serving about 3 1/2 
years on active duty over the 

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00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,160
course of a seven-year period. 
I served at an agency that was 

257
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,600
transferring acquisition power 
away from focus on 

258
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,000
counterinsurgency to large scale
combat operations. 

259
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,600
I also deployed for a year to 
the Middle East, mostly in Iraq 

260
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,520
but also in Kuwait, advising a 
joint task force on countering 

261
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,040
ISIS, and then served for a year
at Fort Bragg with a couple 

262
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,000
different units. 
And then most recently I was at 

263
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,040
US Indo Pacom where I was 
advising the four-star commander

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00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,760
and legal team there on how to 
support a strategic partner in 

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00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,080
the region. 
I was doing that work in part 

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00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,360
because I had a LLM in Chinese 
law from Tsinghua University and

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00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,920
I was able to use some of that 
legal and some of the language 

268
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,200
background to be useful in that 
problem set. 

269
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,760
But that experience of 
countering Chinese influence 

270
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,920
through the military angle took 
me to the US Department of 

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00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,800
Commerce where I was able to 
still engage in counter China 

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00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,320
efforts, but this time for my 
foreign assistance angle. 

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00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,480
And I was traveling to different
countries throughout the Asia 

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00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,760
Pacific, including Indonesia, 
Timor or less Bangladesh, places

275
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,280
that were looking to improve 
their legal, regulatory and 

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00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,440
policy frameworks with US 
assistance and also connection 

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00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,440
to different international 
institutions. 

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00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,400
And that work was going really, 
really well up until until the 

279
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,440
week of the inauguration when I 
got a call to say stop 

280
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,320
everything, cancel your programs
and come back to DC. 

281
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840
So you were overseas when the 
inauguration happened? 

282
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,880
Yes, I was out with USAID 
working together. 

283
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,440
I'm building a program for one 
of the Pacific island countries.

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00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,680
I got the call saying stop 
everything. 

285
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,120
I had to e-mail every single 
partner that I had been working 

286
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,040
with overseas saying that, you 
know, we have to take a pause. 

287
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,280
We don't know when it's coming 
back. 

288
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,360
And what really hit hard was I 
had to stop a program that I had

289
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,600
been building for Ukraine, 
specifically the the Ministry of

290
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,360
reconstruction. 
There was an anti corruption 

291
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,400
program that we've been expected
to launch the very next month in

292
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,520
in February. 
And the folks in Ukraine wrote 

293
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,320
back, we're really sorry to hear
that. 

294
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,400
We're thinking of you, you know,
them expressing their sympathies

295
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:52,880
about what the US was going 
through. 

296
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,440
And of course, later that day 
they were struck by Russia's 

297
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,880
aggression. 
But we're just in, you know, 

298
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,520
another missile attack. 
So to think that we had partners

299
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,960
and partnerships that we've been
building across the world that 

300
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,880
were not only good for the US 
economic interests, but also 

301
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,360
good for our security interests.
We had partnerships and 

302
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280
relationships with countries all
throughout the Asia Pacific. 

303
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,200
That was the source of our 
strength. 

304
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:15,360
That was the source of our 
defense. 

305
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,800
And now this president, he sees 
that our strength as having 

306
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,000
spheres of influence as China 
having Asia, Russia having 

307
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,200
Europe, and the US having the 
whole Western Hemisphere to turn

308
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,280
our backs not only on our 
partners but also our closest 

309
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,360
allies, I think is the most 
dangerous, interesting thing 

310
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,280
he's done. 
Yeah, Trump would always said 

311
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,320
America first foreign policy was
his goal. 

312
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,760
But it's become increasingly 
apparent to me that it's not 

313
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,640
America first. 
It's simply Trump 1st. 

314
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,240
And Trump first foreign policy 
will, I think, lead to America 

315
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,360
alone. 
So that's one of the key things 

316
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,600
that I'm trying to fight back 
against right now. 

317
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,600
I reread one of the old speeches
from him just the other day and 

318
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,640
he had made this big statement 
about how America was going to 

319
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,640
be more respected by its foreign
partners because he was now in 

320
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,240
office. 
That is just such a patent lie 

321
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,359
at this point. 
That was never the intent. 

322
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,520
It seems as though his intent at
this point is simply for self 

323
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,359
enrichment. 
There was a New York Times 

324
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,800
Article 2 weeks ago about how in
the first year of his term he 

325
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,520
has already has somehow raised 
at least $1.4 billion through 

326
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,319
his different schemes. 
Number one of which of course is

327
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,800
his cryptocurrency for his 
family. 

328
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,319
That if a foreign country wants 
favorable exceptions to tariffs,

329
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:28,800
all they have to do is make a 
deposit. 

330
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,840
It is evolved in his first term 
where he needed a hotel down the

331
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,760
street. 
Now he doesn't need the hotel. 

332
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,600
He just has a crypto coin that 
the UAE can put $2 billion in 

333
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,840
for favorable exceptions to the 
tariffs that he hit them with. 

334
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,920
In fact, it seems as though his 
whole tariff approach, it's 

335
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,880
really a grift saying these are 
the penalties that will be on 

336
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,480
trade with you and if you want 
them removed, you know what to 

337
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,800
do. 
So that's another piece of one 

338
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,520
of my key policy proposals is I 
want to force any executive 

339
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,640
leader of any other certain 
level seniority to divest not 

340
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,400
only from being able to sell 
stocks and and personal trades, 

341
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,280
but also to divest from and have
their family divest from any 

342
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,800
crypto based asset. 
Yeah. 

343
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,840
It's very interesting to me as 
someone who was in the national 

344
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,360
security space and every year, 
based on your clearances, you 

345
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,760
have to fill out these financial
disclosures. 

346
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,480
And it's huge concern when 
you're doing this because 

347
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,840
they're concerned as to how it 
looks and yet other people don't

348
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,280
seem to feel that way. 
And that's the thing about 

349
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,600
government ethics. 
There's, there's such a sharp 

350
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,800
contrast in between the vast 
majority of government employees

351
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,760
across all the branches and then
the very, the folks at the very 

352
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,960
top and the executive. 
We all have been through ethics 

353
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,600
briefs. 
I used to be an ethics counselor

354
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,440
and I know first hand that so 
many people, the vast majority 

355
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,960
do their best to comply. 
And yet as we've just been 

356
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,880
discussing, the folks at the 
very top seem to have a pass. 

357
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,520
But it's not just the executive 
branch, it's the judicial as 

358
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,600
well. 
Almost every single federal 

359
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,760
judge and every single federal 
judiciary staff member, they're 

360
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,120
all subject to an ethics code, a
pretty robust ethics code with 

361
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,280
strict penalties, except for the
9 folks at the very top. 

362
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,800
They get a pass because they are
the justices and they are, they 

363
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,080
sit above everyone. 
But I think that Congress should

364
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,240
make sure that we pass 
legislation that requires those 

365
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,760
members of those justices to be 
held to the same standard. 

366
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,880
And yet, of course, Congress is 
very much at fault as well. 

367
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,880
Every single staff member in 
Congress has to monitor their 

368
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,040
trading and has to comply with 
strict ethical guidelines. 

369
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:35,120
But the members themselves have 
access to the most sensitive 

370
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,120
information, not just for 
companies but industry wide 

371
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,880
information, and yet can trade 
it well. 

372
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,640
And this is not a Republican 
issue. 

373
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,280
This is a both a Democrat and 
Republican issue with 

374
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,320
progressive leaders in fact 
leading the charts with number 

375
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,000
of trades and total volume of 
trade value. 

376
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,400
So, well, that's to say, I think
that we need a concerted effort 

377
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,680
in our government to make sure 
that the rules that apply to the

378
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,520
vast majority of employees also 
apply to the leadership at the 

379
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,520
very top. 
Absolutely. 

380
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,040
I agree. 
So we've been going over a 

381
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,040
little bit of things that are 
concerning with this 

382
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,960
administration and just other 
other concerning matters with 

383
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,560
people throughout not the 
highest echelons of government. 

384
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,920
But what was the final piece 
that made you say I'm done, I'm 

385
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,480
leaving federal service? 
The final piece was not being 

386
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,520
able to get the exception of 
policy to put the program on in 

387
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,400
Ukraine. 
In fact, I turned down the Elon 

388
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,760
Musk buyout deal. 
I didn't want to leave. 

389
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,280
I wanted to stay and do that 
program for Ukraine. 

390
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,360
Of course, I didn't get the 
exception of policy. 

391
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,560
And the week I was supposed to 
be there is the day that JD 

392
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,120
Vanson and Trump ganged up on 
Zelensky in the Oval Office. 

393
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,080
And to hear Kremlin talking 
points be parroted by our 

394
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,160
president to the champion of 
liberty and freedom in the world

395
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,600
right now, the person fighting 
the fight at the very front 

396
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,440
line, the person who said I 
don't want a ride, I want more 

397
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,680
weapons to defend myself. 
I saw that as the US turning its

398
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,880
back on American leadership and 
the concept of America having a 

399
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,040
role to play as the good guy in 
the world. 

400
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,440
So I, I just didn't want to be 
affiliated with the direction we

401
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,640
were heading. 
So I I came back to where I'm 

402
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,680
from that month in March, wasn't
really sure what I would do. 

403
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,400
I accelerated a part time MBA 
program that I was pursuing at 

404
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,080
the time and then was able to 
finish that. 

405
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,720
But the very next month after 
arriving back here, my senior 

406
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,200
senator made an announcement 
that he wasn't seeking re 

407
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,040
election. 
Dick Durbin. 

408
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,400
And then my congressman, Raja 
Kristamorphy made an 

409
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,880
announcement that he would seek 
that seat. 

410
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,080
And I started taking a look at 
the race. 

411
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,040
The president was pursuing an 
authoritarian agenda, either by 

412
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,880
weaponizing the law or acting 
outside of the law with 

413
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,480
impunity. 
I thought it was important to 

414
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,400
have someone with experience 
practicing law. 

415
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,560
And as we've seen, the president
views the military as not only 

416
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,440
an instrument to express his 
imperial aspirations, but also 

417
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,720
go against our closest allies, 
threatening NATO, also 

418
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,600
threatening the American people 
through the Insurrection Act. 

419
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,480
And as we've already seen him 
being willing to use the 

420
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,440
military, as we saw him deploy 
active duty Marines to the 

421
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,040
streets of Los Angeles and would
have certainly done more if he 

422
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,960
had been allowed. 
The thing that really concerns 

423
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,960
me about this president's 
tendencies, especially driving 

424
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,360
towards the Insurrection Act, is
that he doesn't want judicial 

425
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:14,280
review to restrain him. 
We saw him run up against 

426
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,680
judicial review in California 
when the courts told him that 

427
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,680
what he was doing was illegal. 
We saw him also run into into 

428
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,720
restraint here in Chicagoland, 
where there were National Guard 

429
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,880
troops deployed to a suburb 
called Joliet waiting to come 

430
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,600
into Chicago. 
But the court stopped him. 

431
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,960
The difference, though, with the
Insurrection Act, as he's been 

432
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,440
trying to lay the groundwork for
it, wouldn't be subject to 

433
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,120
judicial review. 
He would be able to order troops

434
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,600
to come in, and there would be 
no recourse as Congress, in its 

435
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,120
wisdom, did not provide a check 
on that apex of executive power.

436
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,200
So one of the things I've been 
pushing for on the campaign 

437
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,720
trail is to reevaluate and put 
conditions on the presidential 

438
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,640
authority under the Insurrection
Act and to place limitations 

439
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,080
there, at least a review and 
consent period for Congress 

440
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,520
after X number of days. 
So speaking about your campaign,

441
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,120
you've got a lot of great 
points. 

442
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,800
You've been in government 
service, you've got a background

443
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,040
working with politicians as 
well. 

444
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,880
What are your biggest points 
that you want to work for? 

445
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,840
Absolutely. 
Across the country right now, 

446
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,760
affordability is the buzzword. 
Affordability, whether it's 

447
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,840
housing, whether it's utilities,
groceries, childcare, the cost 

448
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,400
of living for Americans has 
exceeded their ability to afford

449
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,680
the American dream. 
And I've certainly have policy 

450
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,040
proposals for each one of those 
topics. 

451
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,880
And yet all those proposals, the
whole concept of congressional 

452
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,000
action presupposes having a 
government that actually 

453
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,040
functions, presupposes A 
commitment to the rule of law 

454
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,320
and institutions that uphold our
democracy. 

455
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,400
And so while I recognize the 
urgent need to bring down the 

456
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,600
cost of living for Americans 
across those different sectors 

457
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,160
of the economy, I would diagnose
that the first problem that 

458
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,160
needs to be addressed is the 
structure of our government that

459
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,240
is enabling an executive to 
pursue aggregation of power 

460
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,320
pursuant to the unitary 
executive theory that Trump 

461
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,080
seems to be enamored with, which
says that the president should 

462
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,320
have more power than the other 
branches. 

463
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,240
We had founders who believed 
that the loyalties of the 

464
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,040
Congress would be to the 
institution, but we've seen that

465
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,320
assumption play out in an 
unfavorable way with the party 

466
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,440
in charge. 
Larger, the party and the 

467
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,240
majority of Congress be more 
loyal to their own political 

468
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,480
party, and even not so much the 
party, but more of the 

469
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,960
personality in charge of the 
party rather than the 

470
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,120
institution. 
All that to say, I think the 

471
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,880
first thing that needs to be 
done is we need to address the 

472
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,760
illegal activity that's been 
going on and also shift 

473
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,880
conditions within our government
to prevent it from happening 

474
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,640
again. 
And my proposal is my Trump 

475
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,640
accountability plan. 
There are 10 different steps 

476
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,760
throughout the plan, and there's
this three different buckets. 

477
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,600
One bucket is a couple different
ways we can reassert 

478
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,080
congressional authority and 
reassert congressional power 

479
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,640
when it comes to key areas. 
Number 2 is to limit executive 

480
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,200
power and in several key ways. 
And then third is to reshape and

481
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,680
reform judicial power. 
I'd say the major highlights are

482
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,000
using the congressional subpoena
power to demand that DHS provide

483
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:11,040
all employment records, all trip
logs, vehicle expenses, all 

484
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,720
documentation that memorializes 
any ICE agent trip within this 

485
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,080
last year such that that the US 
Congress can figure out who was 

486
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,880
behind the mask in each ICE 
abuse incident that we've seen 

487
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,680
across the country. 
If the FBI can figure out who 

488
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,600
was among the crowd of thousands
of people that stormed the 

489
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,360
capital with behind masks on 
January 6th, certainly the US 

490
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,600
Congress can have a Commission 
to figure out which federal 

491
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,560
employee was behind the mask in 
each ICE abuse incident. 

492
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,480
And then we can hold them 
accountable not only 

493
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,520
politically, but also the be 
prepared to hold them 

494
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,040
accountable criminally. 
I say politically because one of

495
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,400
my points in this plan is to say
in the Constitution there is 

496
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,920
language that's often 
overlooked. 

497
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,280
It talks about how all civil 
officers of the United States 

498
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,520
are eligible for impeachment. 
And I'm going to make the 

499
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,480
argument that ICE agents are 
civil officers of the executive 

500
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,400
branch, and as such, they are 
eligible for impeachment. 

501
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,600
Sure, there's not a lot of 
precedent for impeaching below 

502
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,560
the cabinet level. 
At the same time, we live in an 

503
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,960
era of unprecedented executive 
power. 

504
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,480
Shouldn't we expect the Congress
to use unprecedented 

505
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,520
constitutional power that at the
same time we would be having 

506
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,520
this this Commission prepare 
cases that could be sent to a 

507
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,440
restored DOJ? 
For instance, if the Democrats 

508
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,240
retake the executive branch in 
2829, we could restore the 

509
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,920
independence of the DOJ and then
send those cases pre ready to go

510
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,480
to that independent DOJ to 
decide whether or not to 

511
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,560
proceed. 
Everybody talks about, oh, well,

512
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,360
if this is constitutional or if 
this is not constitutional. 

513
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,760
And I think a lot of people 
haven't taken the time to go 

514
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,080
back and actually look at the 
Constitution and reread. 

515
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,400
If even our lawmakers right now 
were to reread the Constitution,

516
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,800
they would see in pretty clear 
terms they have far more 

517
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,800
responsibilities and they have 
far more power that's 

518
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,920
specifically attributed and 
given to them by the 

519
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,880
Constitution then they're 
currently wielding. 

520
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,160
Of course, I'm thinking about 
tariffs and war powers, tariffs 

521
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,320
being explicitly laid out in the
enumerated powers as the ability

522
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,080
to regulate trade between 
nations, and that's given to 

523
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,840
Congress. 
And yet over the course of 

524
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,440
several administrations, we've 
seen Congress be silent on 

525
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,320
tariffs and and let the 
president take leadership there.

526
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,760
What I think Congress should do 
is reassert its power in 

527
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,000
legislation, A requirement that 
the executive, before enacting 

528
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,320
any new tariffs, has to go 
through a congressional review 

529
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,040
and consent period where either 
going through both chambers or 

530
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,960
one chamber, there has to be a 
stop or a pause in the system 

531
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,840
and Congress before any any new 
tariffs can be in place. 

532
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,920
If we were to bring down 
tariffs, we would see not only a

533
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,560
reduction in the housing market 
in terms of cost, but also in 

534
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,800
terms of food. 20% of food that 
Americans eat comes from 

535
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,440
overseas. 
And those tariffs that are on 

536
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,400
food, they're not placed on the 
people sending the food to the 

537
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,880
United States. 
They're placed on the people 

538
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,840
importing the food. 
And of course, that tax is 

539
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,480
passed down to the consumer. 
The other thing I would flag is,

540
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,320
is war powers. 
Congress has the exclusive 

541
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,120
responsibility, exclusive power 
to declare war under the 

542
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:12,080
Constitution. 
And yet we've seen, of course, 

543
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,680
across administrations, Congress
largely ceding that power. 

544
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,800
We haven't declared a war since 
World War 2, and yet our 

545
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,240
military has been involved 
across the world in various 

546
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,200
conflicts. 
And Congress has allowed that to

547
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,480
happen either through 
authorizations for the use of 

548
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,600
military force and then other 
times Congress has just let 

549
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,600
presidents wield the military 
under a purely executive 

550
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,240
authority. 
Now we've gotten to a point 

551
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,520
under this president where that 
has been accelerated. 

552
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,880
We saw the president of the 
United States use our most elite

553
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,280
special forces units to take out
the leader of a foreign country,

554
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,000
and he didn't tell the Congress,
not even the Gang of Eight, 

555
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,080
before he used the military in 
that way. 

556
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,200
However, he did tell the oil 
executives of the companies that

557
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,360
he was going in to liberate the 
oil for. 

558
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,360
So all that to say, we need 
Congress to reassert its role in

559
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600
war powers and specifically in 
the war declaration process. 

560
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,240
Now, what does war declaration 
mean in the context of Modern 

561
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,800
Warfare? 
I think that's open to debate, 

562
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,320
but what I think it should mean,
there's a general principle that

563
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,760
the president should not be able
to initiate new kinetic action 

564
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,160
against a foreign target without
some role consulting Congress 

565
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,720
and getting consent from 
Congress. 

566
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,240
And in the Trump accountability 
plan, I have a specific tool to 

567
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,440
do that. 
If you look at the NDAA, 

568
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,760
Congress couldn't place A2 part 
language, one saying that any 

569
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,280
expenditure of funds has to be 
made pursuant to either a war 

570
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,360
declared by Congress or to an 
operation authorized by 

571
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,560
Congress. 
The second step is to spread 

572
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,640
liability throughout the 
political appointees of the DoD,

573
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,960
similar to the Anti Deficiency 
Act, where political appointees 

574
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,960
can be held personally and 
criminally responsible for 

575
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,400
expenditure of funds in excess 
of the funds they've been 

576
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,960
appropriated. 
This construct would spread 

577
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,440
liability throughout the 
political appointees to say if 

578
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,760
they authorize and if they 
approve expenditures of funds 

579
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,640
for something other than 
operations authorized by 

580
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,200
Congress, rewards declared by 
Congress, they can be held 

581
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,960
personally and criminally 
responsible for those funds. 

582
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,960
I think it would just be a 
forcing function to get the 

583
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,800
executive to see Congress as a 
relevant power player in this 

584
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,360
dynamic. 
That would allow us as 

585
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,160
individual citizens to see, did 
my congressperson approve this 

586
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,440
or not? 
Depending on how it's 

587
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,320
represented in somebody's 
district back home, that may 

588
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,160
actually impact how they're 
voting on whether or not we 

589
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,560
should get into these new 
conflicts. 

590
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,440
And I think that's what a lot of
Americans have wanted for the 

591
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,040
past 20 years. 
Now is more of a say in are we 

592
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,600
going to be involved in this 
specific conflict or operation? 

593
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,000
I completely agree. 
Yeah. 

594
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,800
So I want to pivot to elections 
because you're going through an 

595
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,680
electoral process right now. 
There's voting coming up at the 

596
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,360
beginning of March. 
Is that right? 

597
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,600
That's right. 
We're even in early voting right

598
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,440
now. 
We've got only 33 days left to 

599
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:52,320
go. 
All right. 

600
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,120
With that and talking about 
voting and having people get out

601
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,240
and vote, there's been a lot of 
talk from this administration 

602
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,520
about federalizing. 
What are your thoughts on this? 

603
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,920
I'm deeply concerned by this 
president's interest in 

604
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,240
nationalizing elections. 
The Constitution gives the power

605
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,760
to run elections to the states, 
and whether it's run at the 

606
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,160
state level or the county level,
the system preserves the 

607
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,120
integrity of the of our 
elections, especially when it 

608
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,320
comes to electing a president. 
We saw first hand at an end in 

609
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,040
2020 the power of the state-run 
process when the president of 

610
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,080
the United States called Georgia
and called a state officer to 

611
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,360
say that he wanted 11,000 more 
votes. 

612
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,240
Now, if the president had a 
nationalized election system, he

613
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,760
wouldn't have had to make that 
call. 

614
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,520
He could have ordered a recount 
or a change to find those votes 

615
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,800
or to remove other votes. 
That would have given him much 

616
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,600
more control. 
Right now we have a system in 

617
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,960
which the power of running 
elections is dispersed and 

618
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,960
states can make their own rules.
And that's greatly under threat,

619
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,280
as we've seen to about two weeks
ago from this point of taping 

620
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,360
the FBI go and raid a local 
election office to pull what are

621
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,720
now historic ballots from 2020 
to do a recount. 

622
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,680
While that's concerning in and 
of itself, I'm more concerned of

623
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,400
what that means as a test run 
for a future federal raid on a 

624
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,560
state or or local election 
office. 

625
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,080
Specifically, what's to stop 
now, Pam Bondi, from going in 

626
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,200
the night after an election or 
the day after and saying we 

627
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,480
can't trust you to count your 
ballots? 

628
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,640
State, we, the federal 
government is here to help and 

629
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,120
do that. 
To see that this president has 

630
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,120
even said that there are 15 
states that he can't trust to 

631
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,000
count their own ballots. 
That signals that there's 

632
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,840
interest in getting more and 
more federal involvement. 

633
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,200
That we, we were talking a 
little bit before about how the 

634
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,000
president and his helpers are 
envisioning using ICE at the 

635
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,640
polls, trying to either 
intimidate people from from 

636
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,400
voting or to have some express 
some other nefarious purpose. 

637
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,360
I think that there's steps that 
Congress can do right now to 

638
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,080
protect our elections and 
integrity. 

639
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200
And the number one thing is look
at the actual legal mechanisms 

640
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,880
behind the warranting process. 
The FBI raid on Fulton County 

641
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,080
relied on a search warrant 
issued by a Magistrate Judge, 

642
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,200
which is the lowest level of 
adjudicator in the federal court

643
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,320
system. 
I think such a high level and 

644
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,160
high stakes warrant that could 
have a huge impact on our our, 

645
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,920
our elections and our democracy 
that should be only available at

646
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,200
a higher level of scrutiny. 
So the policy, the platform that

647
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,280
I've put forward includes 
elevating that search warrant 

648
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,760
approval for state and local 
election offices to an appellate

649
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,720
court level, requiring also on 
bank proceedings. 

650
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,600
So that would basically elevate 
the review to the second from 

651
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,720
the top level of review, 
bringing in much more highly 

652
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,080
vetted juris such that that 
would better reflect the gravity

653
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,760
of what's at stake. 
And of course, for when it 

654
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,840
actually comes to having ICE 
agents at the polls, one of the 

655
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,760
things I've been talking about 
on the campaign trail is 

656
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,800
puncturing sovereign immunity 
and qualified immunity, 

657
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,679
basically making the agents 
responsible personally for their

658
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:17,880
illegal acts. 
Now, you know those those 

659
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,199
immunity doctrines are designed 
to protect the good faith 

660
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,480
efforts of law enforcement to 
exercise the duties of their 

661
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,480
jobs. 
But when we've talking about ICE

662
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,920
agents at poll places 
intimidating voters, that's 

663
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400
clearly outside the scope of any
legal use of ICE. 

664
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,600
And any agent that decides to 
participate, even if they are 

665
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,080
ordered to do so, if they decide
to, to participate in the break 

666
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,920
the law, they should be able to 
be held accountable in state 

667
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,920
court both criminally and 
civilly, depending on the type 

668
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,120
of crime that they're 
committing. 

669
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,040
And Congress could do that right
now by puncturing both both 

670
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,440
those doctrines. 
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack 

671
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,880
there. 
To say we're going to send ICE 

672
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,960
agents, first of all, under what
power are you sending an 

673
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,120
immigration officer? 
Nothing makes sense anymore. 

674
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,920
Sorry. 
Like nothing makes sense 

675
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,440
anymore. 
Yeah, completely agree. 

676
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,320
It's, I think, a clear sign that
this president is interested in 

677
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,920
shaping the midterms. 
And I think the major red flag 

678
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,680
to watch out for as we approach 
November is the Insurrection 

679
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,040
Act. 
If the president decides to use 

680
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,280
the military against the 
American people in a way that is

681
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,000
not subject to judicial review, 
that is a clear indication that 

682
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,800
he's interested in intervening. 
As he himself has said, if he 

683
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,320
loses the midterms, if the 
Republicans do, he will most 

684
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,480
likely be impeached. 
That's the greatest danger that 

685
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,840
he's he's worried about. 
It's it's all about his own 

686
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,040
personal political standing. 
But all that to say, when we are

687
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,640
talking about ICE agents 
possibly acting outside the law 

688
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,440
when it comes to elections, one 
of the other tools that I think 

689
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,800
Congress should use is inherent 
contempt. 

690
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,600
This is a tool, a constitutional
tool that's been available on 

691
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,000
the books. 
So that hasn't really been used 

692
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,080
since the 1920s. 
And yet it could compel out of 

693
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,520
check lawless actors in the 
federal government to stop what 

694
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,320
they're doing. 
So, for instance, Christy Noem, 

695
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,240
if Christy Noem is directing ICE
agents or even allowing ICE 

696
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:14,720
agents to be used in ways in 
polling locations, the Congress 

697
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,360
could issue a citation of 
inherent contempt against 

698
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,000
Christy Noem. 
Now, she would either have to 

699
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,440
show up herself to the House 
floor or the Sergeant at arms 

700
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,720
would go and get her and arrest 
her and bring her to the House 

701
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,080
floor. 
She'd be read the charges 

702
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,480
against her. 
She'd have an opportunity to 

703
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,400
respond. 
And then the Congress could 

704
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,280
either vote to impose fines 
personally on her or even 

705
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,200
incarcerate her up until the end
of the term of Congress. 

706
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,280
So, you know, two years maximum.
When I talk about this idea, 

707
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040
people say this sounds 
preposterous, that the Sergeant 

708
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,000
at arms is mostly ceremonial 
position going to arrest the 

709
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,800
Department of Homeland Security 
secretary. 

710
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,000
You've never seen that. 
But we've never seen executive 

711
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,120
power being exercised beyond its
apex right now in unlawful ways.

712
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,280
Shouldn't we have the Congress 
at least use all constitutional 

713
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,280
tools available to act as a 
check on executive power? 

714
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,200
And folks say, what's the 
difference between statutory 

715
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,160
contempt and this inherent 
contempt idea? 

716
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,040
Well, statutory contempt that 
that's that criminal process 

717
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,040
that's it's threatened against 
folks that refuse to testify 

718
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,440
before Congress, the Clintons 
for example, that is a creature 

719
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,840
of statute, which means it's 
under the president's purview to

720
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,400
pardon. 
So if if someone were hit with a

721
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,080
citation of criminal contempt, 
president could wipe that clean.

722
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,720
And yet inherent contempt is 
different as it doesn't arise 

723
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,640
from statute. 
It is a creature of that arises 

724
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,720
from the investigatory function 
of Congress itself. 

725
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,520
And so if Congress were to hit 
Christian with a citation of 

726
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,720
inherent contempt, they could 
either fine or incarcerate her, 

727
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:41,720
with the purpose, of course, 
being to either stop her from 

728
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,600
continuing her program or, you 
know, if she doesn't want to 

729
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,080
change her mind, take her out of
the picture by keeping her under

730
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,040
congressional control. 
That's a tool available if the 

731
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,360
Democrats retake the House and 
something I would certainly 

732
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,000
pursue if I'm there. 
That is I think a very important

733
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,840
thing for people to know about 
because as you said, we've never

734
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,000
seen it happen because it's 
never been necessary to even 

735
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,880
consider. 
And I think that sort of goes to

736
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,360
the the larger problem. 
There are a lot of authorities 

737
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,960
that have existed for the past 
250 years that we haven't had to

738
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,840
really tap into because 
everybody has been operating 

739
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,040
more or less with noble intent. 
Now a large portion of the 

740
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,320
people empowered don't think 
it's necessary to account for 

741
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,760
their behavior. 
And so many of these things 

742
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,120
under score the importance of 
having a politically independent

743
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,960
DOJ. 
Right now, we have a DOJ that 

744
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,960
functions as a puppet of the 
administration. 

745
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000
If the president wants to 
investigate his political rivals

746
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,000
like James Comedy, he tells the 
AG and, and she'll do it. 

747
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,000
Or if he wants the DOJ to 
overlook corruption, for 

748
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,440
instance, Tom Holman accepting a
$50,000 bribe in a fast food 

749
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:53,920
bag. 
Nothing to see there. 

750
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,160
And the DOJ will will will not 
investigate yet we've seen 

751
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,920
presidents before this president
observe the the norm of 

752
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,720
political independence of the 
DOJ and this president has 

753
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,400
trampled that norm. 
So what does Congress need to 

754
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,160
do? 
I think that Congress needs to 

755
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,800
not only restore political 
independence of the DOJ by 

756
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,120
putting in protections that 
protect it from political 

757
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,960
influence. 
I think Congress needs to go 

758
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,560
further. 
My proposal calls for converting

759
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,760
the position of AG from being 
appointed by the president to 

760
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,920
being elected by the people 
during the midterms. 

761
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,760
Now, if you think about how that
that would work right now as 

762
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,240
we're approaching the midterms, 
we'd have an opportunity to 

763
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:32,240
elect an attorney general to 
serve as a check on executive 

764
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:33,960
power from within the executive 
branch. 

765
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,280
Folks often raise the concern 
there's executive power. 

766
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,000
How do you have two different 
actors be elected separately? 

767
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,360
Well, 43 states currently have 
that model where both the 

768
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,600
governor and an attorney general
are elected. 

769
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,200
There's still only one executive
branch and somehow they're able 

770
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,640
to make it work. 
I would think that this is even 

771
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,240
a proposal that Republicans 
would get behind. 

772
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,960
Back in 2022, Biden wasn't too 
popular. 

773
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,720
I would imagine that Republicans
would have liked to have a 

774
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,040
chance two years after a 
presidential election to vote 

775
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,920
for an attorney general to serve
as a check on the president. 

776
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,080
Now, that's not, we're not 
making the attorney general 

777
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,880
insulated from politics, but 
rather we're making the 

778
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,240
influence over the attorney 
general be the American people 

779
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,440
rather than the president who 
was appointed, who was elected 

780
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,560
two years ago. 
And then, of course, two years 

781
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,160
after the attorney general was 
elected, the. 

782
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,640
President would be up and and so
forth. 

783
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,240
Now, there we can talk about 
specific concerns that that 

784
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,960
would arise, but I think 
overall, having a check on 

785
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,480
executive power from within the 
executive branch is essential 

786
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,200
when we can't rely on Congress 
to act as a check on executive 

787
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,480
power. 
Yeah, that really makes you 

788
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,120
think I'm going to take us back.
Even though you have left public

789
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,160
service, you're looking, you're 
campaigning to get back into 

790
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,760
this public service, to get to 
still serve the American people.

791
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,280
But would you ever go back to a 
job like you had before with 

792
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,960
Commerce? 
Or what would it take for you to

793
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,280
go back? 
Oh, certainly, I, I think the 

794
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,280
job that I was doing was an 
ideal job. 

795
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,680
I've got to help foreign 
countries improve the rule of 

796
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,720
law, countering China, while 
also traveling to places I never

797
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:09,200
would have otherwise gotten to 
go see. 

798
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,560
And I loved my job. 
And yet under the current 

799
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,320
administration, I can't envision
trusting that administration to 

800
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,120
be affiliated with its 
intentions. 

801
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,840
I fully hope to go back to 
government services in some 

802
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,880
capacity. 
You know, there we all in this 

803
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,000
moment of time of transition 
during this, this 

804
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,120
administration, hopefully it's a
historical anomaly. 

805
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,800
Some of us see our ways of 
serving by staying in our jobs 

806
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,320
and continuing to do the work 
despite all the chaos at the 

807
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,400
top. 
Others have decided to leave and

808
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,600
highlight other folks who used 
to be federal civil servants and

809
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,760
through a podcast and brings 
attention to stories that of the

810
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,360
incredible work that folks are 
doing right now all across the 

811
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,280
country. 
And then there's others who 

812
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,920
decide that what they can make a
difference and is is the 

813
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,560
political arena make a 
difference from that approach. 

814
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,560
Whatever the approach is, I 
think that those of us who have 

815
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,040
been civil servants have a 
responsibility and a deeper 

816
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,000
understanding of what's at stake
than most Americans. 

817
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040
And so however we see our way to
help, we should certainly do 

818
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,240
that. 
I would just add a last note for

819
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:09,240
any listeners who are interested
in pursuing the political route.

820
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,920
I'm happy to talk. 
My election is going to be on 

821
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,360
March 17th, so win or lose, I'm 
on LinkedIn. 

822
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,680
I'm able to be found publicly. 
Please reach out. 

823
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,400
I'm happy to talk about what I 
learned. 

824
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,240
I never ran for office before. 
Over the last nine months it has

825
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:24,400
been a learning experience each 
and every day. 

826
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,840
Are there any resources, online 
or otherwise, that you would 

827
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,320
refer people to if they want to 
learn more about how to register

828
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,800
to vote or where they should go 
to vote, or the correct voting 

829
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,400
mechanisms? 
Absolutely. 

830
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,680
So if you look at your county 
clerk's website, everybody has a

831
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,840
different county, but I assume 
that everybody knows their own 

832
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,440
county. 
Just search your county name 

833
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,560
plus clerk's office. 
There's going to be an election 

834
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,240
division, and in the election 
division website, they'll be 

835
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:52,000
links about how to register. 
Registration has never been 

836
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,440
easier. 
Unfortunately, it could be 

837
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,720
getting harder under this new 
administration's SAVE Act, and 

838
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:59,440
also the actual act of voting 
could get harder as well. 

839
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,640
But right now, as of the date of
taping, it's relatively an easy 

840
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,160
process to do. 
I just search your county 

841
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,800
clerk's office and it'll be easy
to find that information. 

842
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,920
So before we sign off, Dan, is 
there anything else you'd like 

843
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,800
to? 
Add I just want to express my 

844
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,080
thanks to you both for having me
on today as well as the 

845
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,040
listeners. 
I think that in this time of 

846
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,320
crisis for the country, we all 
are finding a way forward. 

847
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,240
And sometimes it's, it's 
straightforward, sometimes it's 

848
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:28,920
winding. 
I, I simply think that if we, 

849
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,200
all those of us who have served 
in government in some capacity 

850
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,600
and want to see our government 
succeed because we believe in 

851
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,920
the purpose of public service, 
if we all persevere in whatever 

852
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,480
way that we can during the these
next several years, we can get 

853
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,360
back to a place where we have a 
government that reflects the 

854
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:45,760
will and the interests of the 
people. 

855
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,560
There's going to be a lot of 
destruction. 

856
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,840
There already has been the past 
year and there certainly will be

857
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,280
more of the next three. 
But it will take those of us who

858
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,000
knew the government before this 
second Trump administration to 

859
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,960
rebuild it and to reshape it to 
work for the American people 

860
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:01,560
again. 
So I, I'm excited to be part of 

861
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,000
that work. 
I don't know exactly in what 

862
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,560
capacity I'll do it, but I hope 
to see more and more other 

863
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,880
federal civil servants returning
to the government at some point.

864
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,360
All right. 
Well, thank you so much, Dan. 

865
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,400
We wish you all the best, 
especially on March 17th. 

866
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,600
And we will be following that to
see we'll have Dan's website, 

867
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,400
his LinkedIn, all of those on 
our web page and in our show 

868
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,320
notes. 
But Dan, thank you so much for 

869
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,000
joining us today and thank you 
for forking off with us. 

870
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,640
Thank you so much. 
Well, that was really fun, right

871
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:33,760
Philip? 
Like, that was a really 

872
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,280
interesting conversation. 
Yeah, he has some really good 

873
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,120
ideas and whether he wins or 
loses, I hope that people take 

874
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,640
that stuff very seriously. 
Exactly. 

875
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,240
I would love to see somebody use
inherent contempt against 

876
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:48,120
Christie. 
No. 

877
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,320
And why not throw Pam Boni in 
there while we're at it? 

878
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,880
Yeah, maybe cash. 
Actually, my list is kind of 

879
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:53,880
long, Greg, but you. 
Know. 

880
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
You're Tom Homan. 

881
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,040
Yeah, the list is long. 
I'm sorry, did did you say 

882
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:05,120
Kingpin? 
I mean, he he does kind of have 

883
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,760
those. 
He's got strong kingpin vibe. 

884
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,800
He. 
Really does he really, really 

885
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,120
does. 
But you know, Dan made some 

886
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,360
really great points about 
separation of powers. 

887
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,680
Now I'm not going to nerd out 
and talk to you about like the 

888
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,280
three rings of government. 
If anyone's listened to 

889
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,080
Schoolhouse Rock, I'll put a 
link in the notes for it. 

890
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,480
But he did make some really 
great points about Ongress has 

891
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,600
these powers that they really 
need to start using because 

892
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,360
otherwise the exec is trying to 
take those powers. 

893
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,640
Now since we talked to Dan, the 
Supreme Court came out with a 

894
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,000
decision that was quite 
surprising to everyone. 

895
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:46,560
This last Friday, the Supreme 
Court voted six to three against

896
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,600
President Trump's use of tariffs
on under IEEPA, which is the 

897
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,360
International Emergency Economic
Powers Act of 1977. 

898
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,320
And they straight up said the 
president does not have the 

899
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,280
power to impose tariffs on 
imports from any country of any 

900
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,520
product at any rate for any 
amount of time, especially under

901
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,440
IEEPA. 
Surprisingly, I'm going to 

902
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,840
mention Justice Gorsuch in his 
concurring opinion. 

903
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,800
He laid out a very simple 
explanation in his concurrence 

904
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,920
as to why he and the other 
conservative justices voted this

905
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,920
way. 
He explained that the 

906
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,760
legislative process is extremely
important because it is a 

907
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,600
contemplative process and that 
results in laws that last longer

908
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,000
because they have been debated, 
they have been contemplated and 

909
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,840
it helps with stabilizing the 
economy because people can 

910
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,800
actually plan based on that. 
Now President Trump responded 

911
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,440
typical fashion, criticizing the
court, calling them fools and 

912
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,400
lap dogs and even stated that he
had been such a good boy so far,

913
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,760
which Oh my gosh, what times are
we living in? 

914
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,040
And even stated that he has the 
power to destroy the country and

915
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,400
he can destroy trade. 
He's attempting to reimpose 

916
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,600
those same tariffs but using 
different trade acts. 

917
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,360
First, he said it was going to 
be 10%. 

918
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,520
On Saturday, he changed it to 
15%. 

919
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,800
The executive order he signed 
supposed to go into effect on 

920
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,840
Tuesday. 
We'll see. 

921
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,920
That's the day that this episode
comes out. 

922
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,680
But it will be interesting to 
see how Congress is going to 

923
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,760
respond to the Supreme Court's 
most recent ruling and how the 

924
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,720
Supreme Court is going to 
respond to Trump trying to use 

925
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,400
other trade acts to enforce new 
tariffs. 

926
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,480
Those are some really great 
points, especially about the 

927
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,640
legislative process being a 
contemplative process like that.

928
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,880
That's really important right 
now with sort of the way that 

929
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,600
the president has been 
attempting to legislate. 

930
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,920
It sort of brings to mind some 
of the other issues that Dan 

931
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,880
talked about, about how Congress
could legislate and the states 

932
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,640
could also legislate to 
introduce more checks. 

933
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,760
And one of the big points that 
Dan talked about was piercing 

934
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,160
the veil of sovereign immunity. 
And there is an effort here in 

935
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,600
California to bring some 
accountability in with the no 

936
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,880
secret police sack. 
That's California's law, to ban 

937
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,440
federal law enforcement from 
wearing masks when they're doing

938
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,200
these operations. 
That's really important from the

939
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,520
perspective of state and local 
governments being able to 

940
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,840
enforce laws over the federal 
government. 

941
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,280
And this is something that I've 
heard a lot from my old 

942
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,760
colleagues at LAPD, as well as 
like even the chief of police on

943
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,280
TV saying LAPD can't enforce 
laws against the federal 

944
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,240
government. 
That's just ridiculous. 

945
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,200
They do this all the time. 
They do it in as simple acts as 

946
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,680
giving an FBI agent a speeding 
ticket when he's driving his 

947
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:53,200
view car during work hours. 
That's a very simple example, 

948
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,400
but we can also go back. 
A lot of people don't realize 

949
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:01,120
that before 1934, the FBI didn't
have arrest powers. 

950
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,880
They weren't authorized by a 
federal law to carry firearms. 

951
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,960
They relied on the Second 
Amendment or they got concealed 

952
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,800
carry permits from the States 
and to make arrests they either 

953
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,680
had to be deputized by a state 
or local authority or they had 

954
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,640
to use citizens arrest powers. 
That's fine. 

955
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,560
So it's really interesting 
because in those situations they

956
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,920
were being governed by the 
states. 

957
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,600
And there's even exam an example
from the 20s of where the New 

958
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,160
York special agent in charge had
directed his agents to get 

959
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,840
concealed carry permits from the
state of New York to be able to 

960
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,080
carry firearms on duty. 
That's a perfect example of how 

961
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:44,120
the states were regulating how 
the FBI could do its job within 

962
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,600
their borders. 
And it's really important 

963
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,520
context, too, for this thing 
going around with all of the 

964
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,080
states. 
There's this draft legislation 

965
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,440
they're urging states to 
consider called the Universal 

966
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,640
Constitutional Remedies Act. 
The general premise here is to 

967
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,800
allow federal law enforcement to
be sued in state court. 

968
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,680
And this has a lot of people 
questioning, oh, they can't do 

969
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,360
that. 
And then there's this other 

970
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,720
piece of legislation. 
It's federal legislation. 

971
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:13,760
It's called the Bivens Act. 
And it would U.S. officials to 

972
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,520
the list of people who can be 
sued in federal court under 42 

973
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,560
USC 1983, which is essentially 
deprivation of constitutional 

974
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,840
rights. 
And a lot of people think that 

975
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,080
wasn't the intent of the 
Constitution. 

976
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,960
It absolutely was. 
There's this paper of 

977
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,240
sovereignty and federalism. 
It's this 1987 Yale Law paper. 

978
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:35,680
It essentially argued that this 
is how the Supremacy clause was 

979
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,040
litigated for the 1st 200 years 
of our democracy. 

980
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,840
In it, the author he cites in 
The Federalist Papers, he cites 

981
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,880
Madison, who said a double 
security arises to the rights of

982
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,520
the people. 
The different governments will 

983
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,520
control each other at the same 
time. 

984
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,880
Each will control itself. 
This is like states policing 

985
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,840
feds and the feds policing the 
states like that was a normal 

986
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,840
expected thing. 
And then Hamilton said if the 

987
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,920
rights are invaded by either, 
they can make use of the other 

988
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,880
as the instrument of redress. 
And so he's saying there are 

989
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,240
redress mechanisms between the 
state and federal governments, 

990
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:11,320
like there are checks there as 
well. 

991
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,160
And this is really important to 
understand the idea behind 

992
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,080
sovereign immunity because the 
supremacy Clause states federal 

993
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,960
laws made in pursuance of the 
Constitution are the law of the 

994
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,240
land, right? 
But there's a really important 

995
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,440
phrase there made in pursuance 
of the Constitution. 

996
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,360
And the argument is that 
unconstitutional acts are are, 

997
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,640
by definition, not taken in 
pursuit of the Constitution. 

998
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,400
And so under the Bivens Act, 
you're not protected for 

999
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,560
unconstitutional acts because 
you're not working in pursuit of

1000
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,760
the Constitution. 
It's the same idea with the 

1001
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,480
state legislations. 
And I think that this could 

1002
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,440
actually be a really good tool 
to use to protect the midterms 

1003
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,720
coming up because Congress could
actually tie passage of the 

1004
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:59,240
Bivens Act to DHS's funding 
right now that hasn't gone 

1005
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:01,000
through yet. 
They could say if you want your 

1006
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,240
money, you've got to pass the 
Bivens Act, and then DHS 

1007
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:07,800
officials could be sued if they 
violate people's constitutional 

1008
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,520
rights at the polls, and that's 
a good deterrent. 

1009
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:14,960
People can also encourage their 
state legislatures to implement 

1010
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,960
some version of the Universal 
Constitutional Remedies Act. 

1011
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:22,280
I would also say that people 
could encourage their police 

1012
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,680
departments to exercise their 
duty to intervene when they're 

1013
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,920
out at these events and they see
federal law enforcement 

1014
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,480
violating constitutional rights.
They have a duty to do that. 

1015
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,600
Every law enforcement officer, 
it doesn't matter. 

1016
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,760
State, local, federal, they all 
have that duty. 

1017
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,480
Absolutely, that's going to be 
something to watch and something

1018
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,640
to see how all of this is going 
to play out. 

1019
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,000
So what can we do? 
In reference to the things that 

1020
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,200
we were just talking about, if 
you think that Congress should 

1021
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,760
pass the Bivens Act, use the 
Five Calls Act. 

1022
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,240
Call them right now, tell them 
it'll help you find your 

1023
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:02,480
representatives and your 
senators and draft messages that

1024
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,720
you can send to all of them and 
you can let them all know. 

1025
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,560
I think that you need to pass 
this legislation now. 

1026
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,200
I think that you need to pass it
as a stipulation of DHS's 

1027
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,880
funding. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1028
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:15,880
Fivecalls.org will have the 
link. 

1029
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,960
Make sure that you're registered
to vote. 

1030
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,720
Make sure that your registration
is valid and active. 

1031
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:27,040
There has been a big push by the
Republican Party to go through 

1032
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,960
and call the rolls, the voter 
rolls for people that have been 

1033
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,840
active that haven't voted in one
or two elections. 

1034
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,920
So if you haven't voted, 
definitely double check your 

1035
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,880
registration. 
I know in California you can do 

1036
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,880
it when you get your driver's 
license. 

1037
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,600
If you don't have a driver's 
license, check your county 

1038
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,480
clerk's page and see where you 
can register. 

1039
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,440
There is this thing called the 
Save Act that they're hoping to 

1040
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,240
push through that would make 
registrations to vote more 

1041
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:55,120
complicated. 
Oh my gosh, yes. 

1042
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,240
Now would be a really good time 
to start making sure that you 

1043
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:02,560
know where your birth 
certificate is and that you have

1044
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,640
copies of those types of 
documents that might be required

1045
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,520
under the Save Act. 
Yeah, it's. 

1046
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,040
It's all the same things that 
you would need for a real ID. 

1047
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,680
Yeah, not everybody is going to 
have a real ID, because not 

1048
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,480
everybody drives or flies or 
needs one. 

1049
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,760
Exactly, exactly. 
All right, 5 calls out. 

1050
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,240
Make sure you check your 
registration for voting and then

1051
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,320
get out there and vote. 
All right, until next time. 

1052
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,600
Thanks for forking off with us. 
Thanks for tuning in to this 

1053
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,760
episode of Forking Off. 
If you're a former Fed with a 

1054
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,800
story to tell, or you're 
wrestling with your own ethical 

1055
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:42,080
crossroads, reach out to us at 
info@forkingoff.com. 

1056
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,320
Today's episode was created, 
produced, and edited by Jill and

1057
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,360
Phillip Fields. 
You can find more information 

1058
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,600
about this episode at 
forkingoff.com. 

1059
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,600
Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, 
Blue Sky, Mastodon, LinkedIn, or

1060
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,640
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