1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,320 What the fork? OK, OK, let's. 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,440 Try this again. Welcome to Forking Off the 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,239 podcast for people who said no to Just following Orders, where 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,240 we explore the very personal decisions behind leaving. 5 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:23,120 Federal service, whether by. Choice or by force, Every 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:24,960 departure has a story, and we are. 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,880 Here to share them. This episode of Forking Off was 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:34,280 recorded in summer 2025. Hi and welcome to this episode 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,560 of Forking Off I'm Jill Fields. And I'm Phillip Fields. 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,800 And today we're going to hear Phillip's story. 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,600 OK, Phillip. So bottom line up front, what's 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,800 your bluff? I'm Phillip Fields and I replied 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,640 resign I. I took the first fork after 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,280 working for the FBI. As an intelligence analyst. 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,280 For the last. 13 years. So, Phillip, why don't you give 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,720 our listeners a little bit of your background, a little bit of 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,640 who you are and how you first ended up at the FBI? 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,280 So I always knew I wanted to help people. 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,920 I grew up out in the country in northeast Oklahoma, and when I 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,240 was 17, I helped start a Volunteer Fire Department. 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:15,760 I got certified. As a. 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,200 Firefighter and 1st responder. And then after high school I 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,120 went to a nearby Community College, majored in criminal 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,960 justice, but I ended up enlisting in the Marine Corps 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,640 before I finished. So in January of 2005, I left 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,400 for boot camp. I ended up with First Tank 27 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,080 Battalion as a TOW gunner. It's an infantry. 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Role deployed to Iraq, twice to Fallujah. 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,640 Between 2005 and 2007, then when I was getting out of the Marine 30 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,680 Corps, I knew I wanted to continue doing that kind of 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,880 thing in national security, and so I got into San Diego. 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,520 State through a special. Admissions program and I majored 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,640 in International Security and conflict resolution which. 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,840 Was a lot of. Fun and very interesting. 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,560 So while I was at San Diego State, I. 36 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,440 Got to study Arabic. I got to. 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,840 Go to Tanzania on a study. Abroad. 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,560 OK, so Philip, you studied International Security and 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,240 conflict resolution. You said you wanted to help 40 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,560 people. You've always had that passion 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,320 for it. So why the FBI did? 42 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,400 Were you just looking for public service? 43 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,760 Were you looking at just government entities? 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,440 What were your plans? Yeah, so actually didn't want to 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:26,600 work. For the FBI. 46 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,160 I think it was once a semester they different recruiters from 47 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,480 the FBI. The CIA? 48 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,120 The state. Department would. 49 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,680 Come to the school. And they would give 50 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,560 presentations. And I was really interested in 51 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,360 the CIA, and I was pretty interested in the State 52 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,560 Department too, after having been in the Marine Corps and 53 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,400 Iraq. Like I didn't really want to. 54 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,920 Be a police officer. And so I kind of wrote. 55 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:54,960 The FBI off I applied to, basically. 56 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,360 Every agency in the intelligence community at the time. 57 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,760 Places like the CIA. Weren't really hiring people 58 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,200 with an infantry background. They were looking for something 59 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,680 else then one of my friends. Who he was. 60 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Still in the Marine. Corps he was. 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,880 Working at with the Marine security guard at an embassy in 62 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,240 Europe, he introduced me to one of the FBI agents who was 63 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,440 stationed there at the league at and I got to talking to him and 64 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,000 it got me thinking about it enough that. 65 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,760 I I was like, OK, I'll. I'll put in an application and 66 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,640 see where. It goes. 67 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:30,320 So I applied around July of 2011. 68 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,160 Then when we were on our honeymoon in. 69 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,240 August I got. An e-mail from him saying. 70 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,320 Our honeymoon, that was three years after we got married, by 71 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,960 the way. But but you know, it was still, 72 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,640 it was great. It was still our honeymoon. 73 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,000 It was still. Our honeymoon we were in Hawaii. 74 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,960 It was lovely. So I got an e-mail from him with 75 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,400 a conditional offer. I responded yes, I was 76 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,520 interested. I was in the hiring process. 77 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,000 For a couple of. Different agencies at that 78 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,560 point, none of them were. Like, really? 79 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,280 What I wanted wanted to do when I got this one. 80 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,960 I said yes, but. Then when we got back, I found 81 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,240 out. That I was actually. 82 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,480 An alternate candidate. Initially I didn't think it was 83 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,520 going to go anywhere. They tried. 84 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,360 Offering me like different roles. 1 was like an electronics 85 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,160 technician, which I didn't feel like I was in any way. 86 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,680 Qualified to do and so I just I thought well I'll have a job 87 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,160 whether I take this one or not so I just. 88 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,200 Said no thank you and eventually they came back and. 89 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,240 Said oh hey, we we have an extra. 90 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,840 Slide, you can come on. So I came on board. 91 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,160 As a staff. Operations specialist initially 92 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,640 I was in February of 2012. I got through my entire 93 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,320 background process and everything in less than seven 94 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,360 months from the time I applied to the time I came on board, 95 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,280 which was unheard. Of it is still unheard of and 96 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:55,600 we'll get into why I am very I have I have feelings, lots of 97 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,680 feelings. But yes, Philip got through the 98 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,880 background process extremely quickly. 99 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,040 So, all right, Philip. So you came on board as an SOS, 100 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,480 Now they're called tactical specialists. 101 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,840 Right. And so the job hasn't changed, 102 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,360 but they changed the title so I came on board in. 103 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,960 February and I went. To Quantico for the orientation 104 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,120 came back to Los Angeles and I spent the first few months just 105 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,640 getting the hang of the job, learning how the. 106 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,400 FBI works before. My supervisor at the time told 107 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,160 me that, you know, we were about to go into a multi. 108 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,200 Year hiring freeze there. Was application window open for 109 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,800 an intelligence analyst role and he thought that I'd. 110 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,240 Be really good at it. And if I had any interest at 111 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,960 all, I should apply now, because I might not get another chance 112 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,920 for a long time at the time. Like I worked. 113 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,080 With a lot of intelligence analysts and they were very 114 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,840 senior in their roles. So I kind of saw what they did 115 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:49,720 and I thought, like, I don't know if I'm ready. 116 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,440 To do that but. I also knew that, you know, he 117 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,960 had confidence in me, which made me feel good. 118 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,720 I didn't want to. Regret it several years. 119 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,280 From now if they still weren't hiring. 120 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:03,720 So I put in the application and then I went to Quantico for SOS 121 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,560 training and while I was there I actually got. 122 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,720 Called back. With an offer and I did the 123 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,760 interview and I ended up leaving Quantico early in June to come 124 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,520 back home so I could pack up and get ready to go back to Quantico 125 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,400 in July as an intelligence analyst. 126 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,240 So I spent and most of 2012 at Quantico. 127 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,840 Yes, yes, you did. So I went to Quantico in July 128 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,520 and completed the intelligence. Basic course. 129 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Came back to Los Angeles in September, my first assignment 130 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,960 as an intelligence analyst. Was with a. 131 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,760 Squad at the Joint. Terrorism task force that did 132 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,880 what we call. Terrorist use of the Internet 133 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,040 initially. It was sort of. 134 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,120 Getting the hang of. Old school. 135 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:51,800 Terrorism that we think. About Al. 136 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:54,720 Qaeda and al Shabaab and things like that, learning the 137 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,440 ideology, learning how they operated online. 138 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,880 But then in 2013, things started to change. 139 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,320 I was starting. To get the hang of things. 140 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,400 And then the Islamic. State really started. 141 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Taking off across Iraq and Syria. 142 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,280 I had encountered some of this during my time in Iraq. 143 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,720 Before SO it was pretty. Frustrating at the time, a lot 144 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:17,680 of the. Places that they were. 145 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,920 Taking over were. Places that. 146 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,400 We had controlled during my time there and so dovin pretty 147 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,800 heavily. At that time, the Islamic State 148 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,480 had some of the most polished propaganda and recruitment out. 149 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,400 We. Were trying to figure. 150 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,480 Figure out how. First how they were making it, 151 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,920 who was making it, and then finding those people and 152 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,960 disrupting them, working with DoD and then trying to continue 153 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,080 to break up the organization so. I got to work with a lot of. 154 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,440 Really interesting teams and programs. 155 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,880 I started learning more about offensive cyber programs and 156 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,480 computer network operations and started getting really good at 157 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,440 it. And so in 2017 I moved. 158 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,480 We moved to DCI. Got a job? 159 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,760 At the Counterterrorism Divisions Advanced Projects Unit 160 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,480 and it was. The best job ever. 161 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,400 They worked a lot like like a. Startup or an incubator? 162 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,600 But with the resources. Of like a major corporate R&D 163 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,600 program. We got to work on some of the 164 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,320 hardest problems the FBI faced. We were. 165 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,680 Designing advanced analytic capabilities and building new 166 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,240 intelligence collection tools that. 167 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,039 Would set the FBI up for success for several years. 168 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:35,960 So then in 2017, the. FBI started talking about moving 169 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,720 CTAPU. And the rest of the innovation 170 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,919 teams? To. 171 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,559 Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, AL initially. 172 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,520 We were able to. Avoid the move and buy 173 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,600 ourselves. A few years, but. 174 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,280 During the pandemic I did it became clear that they were 175 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,320 going to be moved and so I decided to do a joint duty 176 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,920 assignment as one of the FB is intelligence liaison officers at 177 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,840 the CI as Counterterrorism Mission Center. 178 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:06,320 I spent most of that year working to integrate FBI and CIA 179 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,240 offensive cyber programs and working with a lot of different 180 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,280 interesting teams before I found a permanent transfer. 181 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,960 To the FBI. VI Cyber division Initially I 182 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,800 went to. Cyber because a lot of. 183 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,200 Other people who had been working CT had gone over and 184 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,920 they had talked. About how the cyber. 185 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,520 Program needed the experience and sort of innovative. 186 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,360 Approaches that the CT. Program had been refining over 187 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,000 the years and so when when I got. 188 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,800 To cyber like I could see that but they. 189 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,920 Didn't really seem ready. For. 190 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:43,040 That type of thing. So you moved over to cyber in 191 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,080 the summer of 2021? Right. 192 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,000 And so shortly after. I got there though I got offered 193 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,000 two other jobs. 1. Was a leadership. 194 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,880 Position at the National Counterterrorism Center that I 195 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,000 had applied to around the same time. 196 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,720 It was a good opportunity, but the other one sort of came out 197 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,280 of nowhere and I was offered a position back in Los Angeles 198 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,000 and. So this was. 199 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,000 You know, just starting to come out of the pandemic. 200 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,240 DC was getting pretty crazy there. 201 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,720 Weren't a lot of opportunities left that in the area? 202 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,440 That I was. Extremely interested in so it 203 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,520 was one of those things that came up and it just seemed like 204 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,320 the right time to take it the. First year we were. 205 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,360 Back in Lai spent working on our collections and targeting 206 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,040 program, I split my time that year between Russian foreign 207 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,200 influence and Iran's cyber threats. 208 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,480 It was interesting. I got to get more familiar with 209 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,880 those and made some good contributions. 210 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,960 But then an opportunity came up to. 211 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,280 Go back to the. Team that I had started on. 212 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,040 At the JTTF it was a great. Experience the first time and I 213 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,680 thought now with all of the experience that. 214 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,720 I had had both. There before and headquarters I 215 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,280 could really make some big impact so I took that when I 216 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,280 got. There I realized that. 217 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:07,320 During the pandemic, A. Lot of the relationships that we 218 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,800 had built before had started to deteriorate. 219 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Not because anybody had, you know. 220 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,520 Lost favor or? Didn't. 221 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,280 See the value? But just because there was less, 222 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,360 there was less. Collaboration During the 223 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,400 pandemic, teams weren't traveling and some people just. 224 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:25,200 Fell out of. Touch. 225 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,760 And as new people came in, some things got lost. 226 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,760 So I spent a lot of the time rebuilding those relationships 227 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,000 with foreign partners and different music agencies in the 228 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,360 DoD, while also digging into some of the new cases that had 229 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,160 come up and looking for. Opportunities to really. 230 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,320 Advance those it was it was a lot of fun. 231 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:49,280 We we found a lot of really. Interesting stuff that had. 232 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,000 Sort of been inconceivable. Previously to that. 233 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,000 OK. So Phillip, it sounds like 234 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,040 everything was going pretty great. 235 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,600 You're back with your old team doing the good work, the 236 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,400 deferred resignation program, the fork in the road came up. 237 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:09,040 Why did you take the fork? Yeah, the FBI's counterterrorism 238 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,920 program kind of peaked somewhere between 2016 and 2019. 239 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,000 They continue to do. Good work after that, but. 240 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,680 Leadership and morale. Really eroded after director. 241 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:22,960 Comedy was fired. That's not to say Director Ray 242 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,040 did a. Bad job. 243 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,240 When he came on board, we needed somebody. 244 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,040 Who was? Going to stay. 245 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,880 Out of the spotlight. Wasn't going to get us involved 246 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,160 in more political attacks and. He did a great job of that. 247 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,600 He was quiet and unassuming, and he helped us stay under the 248 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,000 radar during some major challenges. 249 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,480 But. After a time, I felt like the 250 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,280 FBI needed a director who was going to stand up for us in the 251 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:49,120 face. Of all of that. 252 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,920 Criticism. It kind of felt like he. 253 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,480 Had just abdicated. His responsibilities as a. 254 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,200 Leader he also whether. He made the decisions or he 255 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,480 allowed them to be made. A lot of bad executives were 256 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,600 selected. During that time frame and so. 257 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,360 It was sort of. Setting up this environment for 258 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:09,240 the. FBI. 259 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,880 To not be prepared. For what it is. 260 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,840 What it's facing today, you can. See a lot. 261 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,280 Of that taking place. If you. 262 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:22,520 Follow the discussions about the realignment that happened 263 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:28,000 between 2017 and the present. As far back as 2012, the FBI had 264 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,040 been working on plans. For a new headquarters. 265 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,280 In the National Capital Region and they had spent like $20 266 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,640 million on this. By the. 267 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,440 Beginning of 2017 like it seemed like. 268 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:41,920 They were all but. Done. 269 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,040 Then, right after Director Comedy was fired, they threw the 270 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,960 plans out. They decided to move 5000 people 271 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,400 out of the National Capital Region who were assigned to 272 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,400 headquarters. Most of those people were going 273 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,520 to go to Huntsville, AL before this. 274 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,600 Huntsville was an important part. 275 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Of the FBI, That's where the that's where TDAC was the 276 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,440 terrorist. Explosive device Analytics 277 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,480 Center, but it wasn't known as like an innovation hub or 278 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,880 anything like that. And so it kind of came out of 279 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,600 nowhere. And initially the were, you 280 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,520 know, Oh, well, there's this senator. 281 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,480 Who? Richard Shelby. 282 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,880 Who was? You know, from Alabama, and he 283 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,120 was on the Appropriations Committee for the Bureau. 284 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,040 And he? Had struck a deal and that's. 285 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,200 That's all there was. To it, but now in retrospect 286 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,480 when we when I go back and look at it and I think. 287 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,560 About cash Patel. Wanted to shut down FBI 288 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,320 headquarters on day one and send the 7000 employees across the 289 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,360 United. States like what was. 290 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,640 Happening in 2017 was very intentional. 291 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,840 Generally the. First, efforts to start. 292 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,360 Tearing apart the FBI and starting with innovation and the 293 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,880 FBI's. Ability to tackle. 294 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,520 New technologies and new threats in the future seems very 295 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,680 intentional in the way that they they went about doing that. 296 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,640 So even before Trump had won the election for his second term, 297 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,240 the writing kind of seemed like it was on the wall. 298 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,960 I remember talking to a friend when the first assassination 299 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,760 attempt happened, watching the video clip, he was, you know, 300 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,160 standing there pumping his first in the air yelling fight, saying 301 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,040 to my friend like, this just won him the election. 302 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,480 In my mind, there was no doubt about it at that point. 303 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,760 So then in November when he announced that he was selecting 304 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,800 Cash Patel as the new. FBI director that just. 305 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,120 Made it all the more apparent. But that wasn't the only reason. 306 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,640 In July of 2024, some things had gone on with. 307 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,600 A couple of other. FBI employees that had pushed me 308 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:45,840 to. File a whistle blower. 309 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:51,480 Complaint So when the fork in the road e-mail hit my inbox. 310 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,040 I. Was almost. 311 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,520 Ready to hit Accept? Immediately the first time I 312 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,040 heard about it was on TVI think. I think it was. 313 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,320 I think it was on TVI think we were watching the news. 314 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,880 Yeah, I was there and then I had gone outside of the. 315 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,600 Office to. Check my phone and there were 316 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,280 several people out there who were on their phones and they 317 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,880 were all talking about it like. Is this? 318 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,840 Real what is going on? I went back in and people have 319 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,880 started discussing it and the way. 320 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,560 That I understood it. The first time. 321 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,240 Was that they were. Offering a severance check. 322 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,280 Anybody who replied? Resigned to this e-mail would 323 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,160 get a severance payment. Of whatever their salary would 324 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,760 be. From when they were. 325 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,080 Accepted through October 1st. And I was sold. 326 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,040 I was like I. I will. 327 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,000 Reply resign right now. Get me the e-mail. 328 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,080 I didn't actually get the e-mail until about 7:00 that night. 329 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,760 One of my friends in the office. Got it while we were still. 330 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,720 There and so they were letting people. 331 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,480 Sort of shoulder surf. And read it for themselves and 332 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,920 see what it was, and then it. Was sort of clear. 333 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,640 That it wasn't as cut and. Dry as we first thought. 334 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,319 It was you know, you'll be placed on administrative leave. 335 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,520 You might have to continue working for. 336 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,520 A while there were start. Questions were starting to come 337 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:13,760 out. About whether. 338 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:15,800 You know they had the. Authority to do this. 339 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,599 Kind of thing. I was not as sold anymore and so 340 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,359 the initial deadline was for February. 6th it got delayed 341 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,000 pretty well ahead of that. I was starting to think this was 342 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,720 more of a scam than anything. Around the same time I also got 343 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,560 a letter from the. The deputy director of the. 344 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,560 UK National Cyber Force thanking me. 345 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,040 For. Sort of my contributions to the 346 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,680 mission over the last decade. And, you know, so I had this 347 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,520 like sort of good feeling about all the work I've been doing 348 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,480 and. If if it had actually cut off at 349 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,280 the February 6th. Deadline. 350 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,880 I probably wouldn't have taken it. 351 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,360 But it got. Extended and you know, started 352 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,920 looking at the. Totality of the. 353 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Circumstances where things were going, thousands of seditious 354 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,840 criminals already been pardoned, The immigration talk was really 355 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,640 getting kicked into high gear about, you know, deporting 356 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,680 basically everybody. I had done my part in the 357 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,080 capital riot case and hadn't made it to the list that went to 358 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,040 DOJII would have gladly been fired over that. 359 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,960 But there were photos. Circulating online about. 360 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,680 The FBI score values. Being painted over at Quantico, 361 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,880 you know, they were being removed from websites and 362 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,960 policies, you know. Some of my Co. 363 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,720 Workers were already being called on to. 364 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,520 Help out with. Looking into the the immigration 365 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,920 matters. They were clearly very. 366 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,240 Uncomfortable with what was going on and I was just waiting. 367 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,120 For for it to. Be my turn and for me to end up 368 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,800 getting fired for telling some manager off so then by. 369 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,880 February 12th. You know, we didn't know when 370 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,320 the deadline was going to be, but. 371 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,680 I had decided I. Need to do this. 372 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,240 I need to reply resign. This way at least. 373 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,320 Maybe I keep. A paycheck for. 374 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,680 A few months I had done the math. 375 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,720 I had quite a bit of leave. Saved up. 376 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,120 We had money in savings, and so I thought I could make it either 377 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,520 way. Why not roll the dice? 378 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,880 That morning I went into the office, walked into the 379 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,120 executive wing. This is the same place that, you 380 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,040 know, more recently, Senator Alex. 381 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,520 Padilla was tackled. And placed in handcuffs for 382 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,200 having the audacity to ask a question of Christie Gnome 383 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,000 during the press conference. So right down the hall, I I 384 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,600 walked in. I asked for a meeting. 385 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,800 With the assist the. Assistant Director in charge. 386 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,680 Of the LA office. Akhil Davis. 387 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,280 And I spoke to him a little bit later. 388 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,240 And so I went into everything about my disappointment and sort 389 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,720 of how I had been treated since. Starting the whistleblower 390 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,640 process, the lack of sort of integrity with a lot of. 391 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,400 Leadership in the office. And it was. 392 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,880 Pretty clear. That he was not the person to be 393 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,320 leading the office during that time if anything came up where 394 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,840 we needed somebody with his level of rank to. 395 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,120 Back us up it. Wasn't going to come from him. 396 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,440 I told him I was going to reply resign. 397 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,160 Initially he was like, Oh well, you know, give me a week. 398 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,760 And I was like, I can't. Give you a week the court could. 399 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,440 Rule at any time and shut this down. 400 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,280 I am doing. This today. 401 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:28,560 Well, give me 24 hours. No, no, I, I'm, I, I have to do 402 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,360 this as soon as I leave the office and. 403 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,560 He was like, OK, OK, well. You seem like you've made-up 404 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,880 your mind, so you know, if you feel that way, go. 405 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,520 Ahead and do it but. Let me call you tomorrow. 406 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920 I'm going to look into this. And if there's anything that I 407 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,640 can do, I'll tell you tomorrow. And if we have to, you know, I 408 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,760 can refuse your, your resignation and we can get you 409 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,840 out that way. I had no expectation that this 410 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,520 was going to work, but I wanted it to be true. 411 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,640 So I said sure, yeah, go ahead. So I walked back to my desk. 412 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:02,240 I replied. Resign. 413 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Initially I was a little confused that. 414 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,960 We'd received like 30. Emails I was like which one do I 415 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,400 reply to? And so I replied to the first 416 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,480 one. The next day I took personal. 417 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,280 Leave, he called. Late in the day. 418 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,480 And it was. Very clear that he had just. 419 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,800 Put me on speakerphone while he was driving home during rush 420 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,040 hour. He seemed pretty distracted and 421 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,480 he was just like, so I couldn't change your mind. 422 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,440 It was like a. 15 second call. So I told him Nope and that was 423 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,880 pretty much it. I I knew right then I made the. 424 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,640 Right choice. So I wasn't surprised when the 425 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,440 thing with Alex Padilla happened, when I realized. 426 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,680 That. He was standing there, right at 427 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,040 the front of the room, in his conference room, down the hall 428 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,080 from his office in his building, watching his FBI employees 429 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:56,200 tackle a United States senator and put him in handcuffs for 430 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,680 asking the question. So Needless to say, you don't. 431 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,840 You don't regret that decision. I have not regretted that 432 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,160 decision yet. Looking back, is there anything 433 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,720 that would have changed your decision to take the fork? 434 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,040 At the time maybe, maybe more authentic leadership, confidence 435 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,000 in the whistleblower process, confidence and basically anybody 436 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,760 above me in my chain of command. Ultimately, it probably. 437 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:21,920 Would have just bought the Bureau. 438 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,320 A little bit more of my time. Every day. 439 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,280 Since February 12th has confirmed to me that I made the 440 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,280 right decision. Had I been present for many of 441 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,240 the events involving FBI Los Angeles after my departure, I'd 442 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,200 have probably ended up quitting, getting fired, or taking the. 443 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,440 DRP 2 point. O and wishing I'd had the. 444 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,480 Foresight to take the. First one, yeah, I don't think 445 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,360 that there's anything that this administration was going to do 446 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,920 differently that would have changed my mind in the long run. 447 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,040 All right. Well, share with all of us now. 448 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,920 What have you been doing? Mostly networking. 449 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,240 I've been applying for a lot of jobs, thinking about where I 450 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,880 want to go from here. I've spent the last 20 years 451 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,280 focused on national, on the national security mission, and I 452 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,840 had every intention of spending the next 20 years doing the 453 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,760 same. Yeah, I'm just sort of trying to 454 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,120 figure out where to go from here. 455 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,320 What has it been like since leaving and seeing everything on 456 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,640 TV and watching me go to work for a while? 457 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,640 What is that? What has that been like for you? 458 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,440 The immediate feeling. Was relief the stress had really 459 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,360 got. To me, the last several months 460 00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,720 that I was there and this had only made things 1000 times 461 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,560 worse, you know, I slept. Better. 462 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,160 I felt better but. Watching you go back and deal 463 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,960 with it wasn't great. I knew why you were trying to 464 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,120 stick it out and so, you know, I wanted to be supportive and all 465 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,880 of that. But it was clearly. 466 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,280 Killing you the same way it was killing me and only getting 467 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:03,600 worse. And so when you. 468 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,080 Did decide to take the second. One it was again like a giant 469 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,960 sense of relief Yeah, watching everything on TV has been 470 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,080 extremely frustrating knowing. That if I speak. 471 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,280 About too much. Somebody's going to try and say, 472 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,760 oh, I'm taking a political stance and violating the Hatch 473 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,600 Act and come after me that way. That carries potential criminal 474 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,880 liability. Trying to balance that of like I 475 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,160 need to speak now I can't. Wait, but. 476 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,200 Recognizing that they do. Still have some power. 477 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,840 Over me has been pretty frustrating at times. 478 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,680 That's something I think some people don't understand that we 479 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,080 are still until October, well until the end of September 30th, 480 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,640 still on the books, on the payroll and still have to abide 481 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,440 by all of the ethics rules, all of the policies, all of the 482 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,760 guidelines, everything still applies until the end of 483 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,560 September 30th. Yeah. 484 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,080 But a lot of that's easy, right? It's easy to be ethical for 485 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,760 somebody. Who's been doing this? 486 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,920 Job for. Actually, it should. 487 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:13,840 Be. It should be. 488 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,280 It should be, as we've seen. Yeah, it should be. 489 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,960 Not for everybody. A lot of. 490 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,200 That is easy. You know the whole don't go get 491 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,560 another job, and if you do, you need to. 492 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,320 Probably affect your. Resignation early and stuff that 493 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,640 that hasn't been an issue. What has? 494 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,640 Worried me most is while the administration blows off. 495 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,400 The Hatch Act. Every day and violates. 496 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,400 All sorts of ethical. Policies. 497 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,040 And guidelines I would. Not put it past them to turn 498 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,160 around and try and use it against people. 499 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,840 That. Were speaking out against them 500 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080 and I think. It's very clear. 501 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,720 What Congress's intent? Was with the Hatch. 502 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,880 Act and nobody would argue that someone who's saying they. 503 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,480 Disagree with the president's policy is. 504 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,240 Somehow trying to advocate for them as a political candidate, 505 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,920 especially when they're on their second term and we're supposed 506 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,000 to only have two terms. I don't think there's a. 507 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,120 Real obstacle. There or concern, but it's 508 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:19,280 something that I haven't wanted to come up as a potential issue. 509 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,200 That could be used against me. What are you hoping to do next? 510 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,600 I haven't exactly. Like. 511 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,440 Ever been one for conformity? Most of the major, every major 512 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,760 success I had in the FBI was in. Spite of the FBI. 513 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:40,000 Every successful operation was initially shot down by 12 514 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,560 different people. Because it was. 515 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,080 Different. Somewhere along the way I built 516 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,640 up enough credibility and a track record. 517 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,120 Of success that I could. Leverage a community. 518 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,520 To work towards progress. How that is gone? 519 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,560 It feels like at least. So I've been working to sort of 520 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,920 translate that and build out that new network, but I'm also 521 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,040 not trying to just jump into whatever it is. 522 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,600 That the private sector. Thinks that I should be doing. 523 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,160 I've been saying. For several years that I feel 524 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,200 like the private sector could do a. 525 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,960 Lot more. To. 526 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,080 Further, the national security mission than the government, if 527 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:25,440 they just recognized the value in it, of course the response is 528 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,120 always yeah, but that's not profitable. 529 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,360 Security isn't a profitable part of the company. 530 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,760 It's a cost sink and they're busy talking about margins and. 531 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,600 Shareholder interests. They don't really understand how 532 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,520 to contextualize. The world that we. 533 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:42,840 Exist in. I can't. 534 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,880 Fix that. But lately? 535 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,720 I've been thinking a lot. About where I grew. 536 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,920 Up and. How a lot of the public. 537 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,080 Services were organized as. Cooperatives there were. 538 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,680 Electric cooperatives there were, agricultural cooperatives 539 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,840 there were. Financial cooperatives and it 540 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240 was. Usually that way because. 541 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,040 You know that little individual communities didn't have the. 542 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:12,560 Expertise or the resources to. Make corporations profitable, 543 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,400 right? You couldn't have a Southern 544 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,560 California Edison in northeast Oklahoma, but I think that. 545 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,960 Model applies really well. To security and intelligence and 546 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,400 cybersecurity in current corporate America. 547 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:33,080 Like when I think about corporations as small towns that 548 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,160 don't. Necessarily see the value or 549 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,160 have the expertise or feel like they have the resources to. 550 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,440 Have in house threat intelligence teams. 551 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,640 Or to really. Fully understand risk 552 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,440 management. I think this model can. 553 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,040 Apply very well to those types of. 554 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,840 Situations at the same time there are literally thousands. 555 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,600 Of people just like. Me and you who have left the 556 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,400 government and want to continue doing this kind of work and 557 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,600 don't want to get pulled into the sort of. 558 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,640 Corporate status quo so. I think for me. 559 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,600 This feels like a. Really good time for something 560 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,200 like a. Collective security cooperative, 561 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,240 right we could pull together. A lot of that talent. 562 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,720 Would all work under. One sort of mission not have to 563 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,680 worry about things like shareholder interests and the 564 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,520 employees would be the. Shareholders, right, You have a. 565 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,000 Lot more control over the kind of work you do and I think. 566 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,480 It's it's just a great structure to steer the. 567 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,880 Direction of a company like that and I think that it could be 568 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,680 done in the national security context very well. 569 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,360 It could also solve a lot of other. 570 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,760 Challenges where you know, companies might not feel 571 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,080 comfortable sharing the kind of raw data, signatures, logs and 572 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,920 things like. That with each other. 573 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,280 But when you have an independent organization like. 574 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,560 This that's set up. I think it might be a way to 575 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,600 entice companies. To participate as well. 576 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,440 All right. Final question. 577 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,680 Would you ever go back? Not anytime in the next. 578 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,680 Several years. And right now for me. 579 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,920 I've lost all. Confidence in the institutions 580 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,080 responsible. For leading this country. 581 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,360 And so I don't want to be any part of any of that. 582 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,800 That's not to say never. I'm relatively young in terms of 583 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,840 federal service and so like. What will the? 584 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,280 World look like 10-15 years from now. 585 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600 Maybe something interesting that I learned when I. 586 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,200 Was researching. All of the. 587 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,600 Ways that separating could. Blow up in my. 588 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,840 Face is that. Under the current first system, 589 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,640 if it survives. I could. 590 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,120 Hypothetically come back. To federal service. 591 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,840 Later in life and have all of my previous sick leave restored and 592 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,840 benefits and. I could retire with full health. 593 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,760 Care benefits as if I had never left before. 594 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160 You only have to work a one pay period. 595 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,120 For that to actually. Happen so hypothetically I could 596 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,040 come back in my late. 50s work a few years get to. 20 or however 597 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,120 long or even. Just a few paychecks. 598 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,480 And then do the normal retirement path as if I'd never 599 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,520 left. Obviously there would be less. 600 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,400 Contributed to my pension during that gap, but that's an option. 601 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,720 It's something that I don't know if I'll care enough about by the 602 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,760 time I reach that age. Probably depends a lot on what 603 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,000 happens between now and then, or if there even. 604 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,600 Is a federal workforce. By then, it's an interesting 605 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,840 option that I'm keeping in the back of my mind and I think. 606 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,840 Others should also. Know about and consider well. 607 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,320 Philip, thank you so much for sharing the story with our 608 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,920 listeners, and thanks for forking off. 609 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,320 Thanks for tuning into this episode of Forking Off. 610 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,400 To our listeners still in government, remember your 611 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,680 integrity is worth more than your TSP. 612 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,000 Leaving doesn't mean. Giving up on public. 613 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,400 Service. It just means finding new ways 614 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,360 to serve. Until next time. 615 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,520 Keep your ethics. Keep your dignity. 616 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,360 And we'll. Keep telling these stories. 617 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,800 If you're a former Fed with a story to tell, or you're 618 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,360 wrestling with your own ethical crossroads, reach out to us at 619 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,400 info@forkingoff.com. Today's episode. 620 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,040 Was created, produced. And edited. 621 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,120 By Jill and Phillip. Fieldsyoucanfindmoreinformationaboutthisepisode@forkingoff.com 622 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,560 Follow us on Instagram TikTok. Blue Sky. 623 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,120 Mastodon, LinkedIn, or. Wherever you get your podcasts.