1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,120 What the fork? OK, OK, let's try this again. 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,280 Welcome to Forking Off the Podcast For People Who Said No 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,840 to Just Following Orders, where we explore the very personal 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,000 decisions behind leaving federal service, whether by choice or by 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,680 force. Every departure has a story, and 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,680 we're here to share them. Hi and welcome to this episode 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,680 of Forking Off I'm Jill Fields. And I'm Phillip Fields. 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,760 And today, we have with us Molly Kachowski. 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,440 Hi, Molly. Hi. 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,480 Thanks so much for joining us. We'll get started with your 11 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:43,320 bluff, your bottom line up front. 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,880 Tell us who you are, where you worked in the government and 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,880 what your departure was. Hi, I'm Molly Kachowski. 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,880 I was the Regional Director of the Rocky Mountain Regional 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,040 Office of the US Patent and Trademark Office. 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:03,120 I held that role starting in January of 2016 until I left of 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,240 my own accord on September 5th, 2025. 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,120 Well, Mike, tell us a little bit about your background and how 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,480 you came to public service because your your situation you 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,600 came a little bit different. So I am an engineer by training 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,160 and an attorney by training. I was in private practice and I 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,040 was in house counsel for three different Fortune 200 companies 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,120 before I came to public service. When the American Invents Act 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,520 was passed, it was myself and several friends, 3 gentlemen, 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,480 Mike Draken, Tom Franklin and John Posthumous, who really led 26 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,360 the charge. But the the portion of the 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,200 America Invents Act that talks about establishing three extra 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,040 regional offices or three other satellite offices was actually 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,760 put in by Senator Michael Bennett as a result of the 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,600 lobbying efforts that Mike and Tom and John and then myself and 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,600 others all did. So there was this vision from 32 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,760 pretty much 1790 when the Patent Office sort of first came into 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,680 being. The agency was always in or 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,840 within viewing distance of Washington, DC, right? 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,440 So if you wanted to do business with the US Patent and Trademark 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,240 Office, you had to go to DC in order to do it. 37 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,600 So as the American Invents Act was going through Congress, 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,080 there were a lot of conversations about, OK, well, 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,080 this is America's innovation agency. 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,400 Shouldn't it be where people are doing innovation? 41 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,920 Like, shouldn't people who are innovating and creating 42 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,760 companies and creating ideas and doing all of those things, 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,320 shouldn't they be able to just access the agency in their own 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,040 backyard? And that idea really took root. 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,960 Senator Bennett put the phrase in the American Invents Act that 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,840 said that the agency would establish Detroit and then it 47 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,360 could establish up to three other regional offices. 48 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,040 There was a follow on legislation called the 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Unleashing America Invents Act that authorized the agency to 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,600 establish a fifth regional office as well as community 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,000 outreach offices around the country. 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,000 But community outreach offices and the regional offices were 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,520 always meant to be different, different. 54 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,360 So I was on the team to lobby for the agency to bring in a 55 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,640 regional office to Denver. They did establish the Denver 56 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:21,840 office in June of 2014. And then the first regional 57 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,280 director, Russ Slifer, he went up to become the deputy director 58 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,960 of the entire agency. And then they hired me as the 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,400 second and, well, I guess now the last regional director of 60 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,480 the Rocky Mountain office. So your role there was very 61 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,760 interesting in what you were doing. 62 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,760 You didn't just stay in the office every day, did you? 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,320 No, most days I was, I was out and about. 64 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,680 So I had two roles really. So the first one was to make 65 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,280 sure that the agency had an office and that the safety and 66 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,760 security of the employees that were working in the office was 67 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,480 paramount. It was also to make sure that 68 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,160 examiners who are the people who actually examine patent 69 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,080 applications, they had a connection to the, the agency 70 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,600 and that they had a great place to work. 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Our job was also to recruit and retain examiners. 72 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,519 So that was all kind of what I liked to refer to the as the 73 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:21,120 administrative side of my job. The other side of my job was 74 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,200 intellectual property education and outreach, which was really 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,400 demystifying intellectual property for the people who are 76 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,840 innovating. I can't tell you how many times 77 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:33,040 someone would say to me, well, can I copyright my trademark? 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,040 Sure, but those are two different branches of of the law 79 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,440 and they do different things. So a lot of my job was 80 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,600 explaining intellectual property to people who needed to know how 81 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,920 to use it in their businesses in order to grow their businesses, 82 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,440 establish their businesses, protect the revenue that they 83 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,360 were generating from products that they were selling along 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,560 those lines. So that was a huge part of my 85 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,400 job was to just demystify intellectual property for 86 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,680 businesses. But the other part of my job was 87 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,880 to demystify the agency for some of the larger corporate 88 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,240 stakeholders, you know, the ones that file thousands of patents 89 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,120 every year. You know, in my region that 90 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,480 would have been like Micron. We would have very different 91 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,480 conversations depending on who the audience was, but we 92 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,000 tailored each one of those conversations. 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,400 So, right, if I was out at the University of Nebraska talking 94 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,520 to the the guys who are designing self driving feed 95 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:35,720 trucks for feed lots for cattle, that's a different conversation 96 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,920 than I would have with, you know, someone who I know is 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,360 going to respond to a rulemaking package about the Patent trial 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,320 and Appeal Board. It really was providing access 99 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,080 to the agency for sure, but also bringing more people in touch 100 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,720 with the agency to help their businesses, right. 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,200 I mean, the US Patent and Premark Office did an economic 102 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,040 study in 2016 and 2019, but it basically showed that 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,320 intellectual property supports about 8 trillion of the gross 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,280 domestic product of the United States. 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,240 And, and so, so if you're employing intellectual property 106 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,040 in your business and every business needs to, you need to 107 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,160 have access to people who can educate you on what the 108 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 different forms of intellectual property can do, what they can't 109 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,840 do, what enforcement looks like. And to be able to have those 110 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,200 conversations free of charge, you know, normally people would 111 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,040 go to, you know, they, they would have to go to a private 112 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,280 attorney and, and pay, you know, hourly rates in order to, to get 113 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,200 that information and access that information. 114 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,800 So it was an immensely valuable pool and service that the agency 115 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,080 provided. Yeah. 116 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,160 I mean, I can only imagine how helpful that was to help people 117 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,880 that are innovating understand the process. 118 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,240 And I'm sure that's helpful on your side as well with the 119 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,200 people processing the applications. 120 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,360 Because if you, if you're teaching on the front end how to 121 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,040 do what you need to do, what to include, that's less that you 122 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,120 have to send back or reject or you know, double up and do work, 123 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,240 you know, do the work more than once, so. 124 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,960 Exactly. And that was the whole purpose 125 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,160 behind intellectual property education and outreach. 126 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,560 And in fact, my office established a an 8 part webinar 127 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,760 series that we taught every quarter called Path to a Patent, 128 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,240 where we literally walked someone with an idea through the 129 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,400 way that they could get their patent application on file over 130 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,600 the course of those eight weeks in a nine state region. 131 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,920 I mean, I was in Utah 5 * a year. 132 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,600 I was in Montana probably 3 * a year, Idaho 3 or 4 * a year, 133 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,240 Kansas, Nebraska 2-3 times a year, North Dakota, South Dakota 134 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:46,720 and Wyoming at least once a year. 135 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:52,840 So we were on the road a lot. Yeah, So what happened to make 136 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:59,360 you decide it was time to leave? I think the process of leaving 137 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,920 was that process of grieving. I, I loved the work that we did. 138 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,200 It started to change a little bit even towards the end of the, 139 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,560 the Biden administration, but it really, really, really changed. 140 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,480 So from January to April, we were not allowed to travel at 141 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,840 all. My travel card was cut down to a 142 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,800 dollar spending limit, as was my purchase card. 143 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,000 So we had to switch everything to virtual and virtual has a 144 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,520 fatigue associated with it now. So they start, we couldn't 145 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,039 travel from January until April. And then in April we were told, 146 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,400 oh, you can travel, but it has to be mission critical. 147 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,000 But no one would define what mission critical was. 148 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,039 So we were all shooting in the dark as to what that look like. 149 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:45,720 And I can truly tell you, I did not travel for the agency from 150 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,440 January to when I left. We never really figured out what 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,360 was mission critical. We ended up canceling or pulling 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,840 out of many of the events that we had already accepted just 153 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,760 because we couldn't get there and they didn't want to do 154 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,320 virtual. And then the drum beat started 155 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,440 about, well, you're doing so much less this year than you did 156 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,320 last year. Well, yeah, because. 157 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,120 They wouldn't let. Me. 158 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,000 And the best way I can say it is first of all, right, like where 159 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000 I've been able to summarize anything with respect to what 160 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,840 has happened over the last nine months is that the stated goals 161 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,720 do not match the reality of the consequences of their actions. 162 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:34,320 And any time that messaging is about solving something, it's 163 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,320 actually a crisis that they created that they now need to 164 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,960 resolve. I, I think there's, there's all 165 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,240 of that. That's definitely going on with 166 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,520 with respect to the agency. And I will say what also changed 167 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,520 for the US Patent and Trademark Office. 168 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,720 So the US Patent and Trademark Office is a relatively unique 169 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,600 beast in the federal government. We were the only fully user fee 170 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,640 funded government agency. We did not take a dime of 171 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,640 taxpayer money. We did go through the 172 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,440 appropriations process, but I believe we were one of the very 173 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,960 few government agencies that also had a reserve fund, which 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,320 was also established by the American Vents Act. 175 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:17,560 We really ran the USPTO like a business eyes on the bottom 176 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:21,960 line, value to our stakeholders. Every single time we made a 177 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,480 decision about whether or not we were going to spend money, there 178 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,280 was a justification about what value this was going to provide 179 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,800 to the stakeholders. Because all of the IP education 180 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,960 and outreach that I mentioned before, right, every bit of that 181 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,400 was funded by people who had already paid their user fees. 182 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,560 So we, we were really, really, really conscious of that. 183 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:47,160 And in the past, almost every administration has treated the 184 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,720 agency as that different beast. For example, in, in the shutdown 185 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,560 at the end of December in 2018, we were not subject to that. 186 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,480 Every single US Patent and Trademark Office employee still 187 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,960 went to work every single day and they got paid because we had 188 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,600 our own money and they're still working today and get in this 189 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,000 shutdown and getting paid. Who knows for how long. 190 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,560 The agency has said that they had about six weeks worth of 191 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,920 reserves to be able to spend. So the US Patent and Trademark 192 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,640 Office issues patents and registers trademarks on 193 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,720 Tuesdays. Most people don't know that, but 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,040 Tuesday, they're really big day in the IP world. 195 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,400 And so I think the last time that the US Patent and Trademark 196 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,120 Office did not issue a patent on a Tuesday was in the 1800s. 197 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:32,920 Oh yeah. Oh. 198 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:37,560 That's something to watch. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 199 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,040 So anyway, there were like a series of maneuvers in addition 200 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,720 to the no travel, in addition to the, oh, well, you can't go do 201 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,600 that. There was a whole mess of 202 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,440 approvals, tons of red tape that was put in place, 203 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,640 justifications, every single. At one point I told a friend of 204 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,520 mine, I'm like, I am entering the exact same information for 205 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:06,240 one event in seven different databases in order to just get 206 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,920 it approved for me to do. And then once I did it, I had to 207 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,640 enter more information about that event in the same 7 208 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,240 databases in order to close it out. 209 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,880 So the red tape became intense. Returning people to the office 210 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,800 became intense. I had people sit in my office 211 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,920 and cry that I never thought would ever be that vulnerable 212 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,520 with me. Yeah, there were no 213 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,200 considerations of things like, are there food services in the 214 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,680 office? And in our office, there weren't 215 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,160 the food service that they used to have in the building, which 216 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,640 is AGSA building, went away during COVID. 217 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,720 And so there was literally nowhere that anybody could go to 218 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,160 get food during the day. So I took it upon myself and we 219 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,040 had what I called snacks and support every single day. 220 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,160 I brought in something for people. 221 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,520 Probably wasn't healthy. You know, sometimes you just 222 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,560 need a little something, but it was like. 223 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,280 You know, for those days, because everybody who would come 224 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,280 into the office, we were all still on video calls all day 225 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,560 long. And, and again, all of the 226 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,240 outreach we were doing was virtual. 227 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,840 So like, you literally couldn't go anywhere to get food because 228 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,680 it was a minimum of 20 minutes to go outside the agency to get 229 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,040 food. Like, I mean, it was just all of 230 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,080 those things that did not get thought through about bringing 231 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,480 people back that really bothered me. 232 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,880 And now in my office we didn't have any snafus, but in the 233 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,440 Texas office and in the San Jose office, in one they put a judge 234 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,200 in the lunchroom and in another they put a judge in the 235 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,920 mailroom. Oh, I'm sure that went over 236 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,920 really well. Yeah. 237 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,880 So question here because the working remotely and then being 238 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,000 called back to the office, was there work that couldn't be done 239 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,960 remotely? Absolutely none. 240 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,440 Every single thing that we did was computerized. 241 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,880 Most of the phone calls, you know, or things that we needed 242 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,960 to have. We're back with headquarters. 243 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,520 So even prior to the pandemic, most of my work could have been 244 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,600 done, well, I mean, it was done remotely from headquarters, but 245 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,640 it was almost all done over the computer or on a telephone call 246 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,720 anyway. Yeah, except for, of course, for 247 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,600 the education and IP, which we did mostly in person. 248 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,080 Yeah, because I was going to say, because that's something 249 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,200 that a lot of organizations, especially within the government 250 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,000 realized during COVID is there were so much work that could be 251 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,680 done from home and people were getting more done from home. 252 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,080 And just the business of the agency, right, the examining of 253 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,600 patent applications, the examining of trademark 254 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,400 applications, all of that is computerized, It's monitored. 255 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,920 The, the US Patent and Trademark Office is able to monitor its 256 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,720 people six ways from Sunday. And so, right, we knew our 257 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,720 people weren't slacking off. And we also knew that the people 258 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,200 who used to come into the office that then went to work from 259 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,000 home, that they were actually more productive. 260 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,720 We we could show that with data and with evidence. 261 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,080 And the most interesting thing to me about the closing of the 262 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,800 office is that their justification for it was that 263 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,840 the economics weren't right. It was expensive to operate and 264 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,320 not enough people were coming into the office. 265 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,360 The problem with that is that their evidence for that was 266 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:34,840 based on a December 2024 report where no one was required to be 267 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,360 in the office. That changed in February with 268 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,960 return to office orders. And so they cited a number where 269 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,200 they said that there were less than 10 employees that would 270 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,640 come into the office on any given day. 271 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,600 Well, that was before return to office. 272 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,280 There were more than 30 USPTO employees who would come into 273 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,040 the office every single day. And then in addition, we 274 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,040 realized like we weren't going to be bringing back everybody 275 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,160 that had the Denver office as their duty station. 276 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,920 So we went out and signed interagency agreements with 277 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,400 National Institutes of Health, NASA, in order to house their 278 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,600 employees within our space. So we really had closer to 50 279 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,120 people that were coming into our space every single day starting, 280 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,680 you know, in January, February, March, April, May, that kind of 281 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,400 time frame. The justification for return to 282 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,400 office is always, Oh well, people are better when they're 283 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,160 interfacing person to person, right? 284 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,200 But at the same time that they're telling you you have to 285 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,800 come back into the office to work, they're telling you that 286 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,200 you can't travel for face to face education like where you're 287 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,640 working with the public. The hypocrisy is just too loud 288 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:46,000 to ignore. Yes, I again, right. 289 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,840 Like one of the sayings we had in the office was make it make 290 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,160 sense because it doesn't. And, and I just felt like, you 291 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,640 know, we, we would play the entire Talking Heads album, stop 292 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,800 making sense in the office on a regular basis because just felt 293 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,160 like that's where we were every single day. 294 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,640 And and so it just got to the point where it became very clear 295 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,280 that they wanted my job to change. 296 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,520 They wanted it to change in a way that I wasn't comfortable 297 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,079 with. It became also very clear that 298 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,839 they did not value the work, at least this administration. 299 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,440 Administration did not value the work that we did. 300 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,720 And that was then proven when they closed the Rocky Mountain 301 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,240 office on October 1st and, you know, simultaneously conducted a 302 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,040 reduction in force that took our communications team down to 4 303 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,960 from 60 or 70 people that were doing communications on behalf 304 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,880 of the agency. And then it took the umbrella 305 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,680 business unit that I was a part of called the Office of Public 306 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:52,200 Engagement down from 100 to 15. And, and you know, they're going 307 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,880 to be, I think some more tough decisions that are going to have 308 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,400 to be made. So the Texas office in the 309 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,160 western office both had their 10 year celebrations in October and 310 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,040 November, respectively. They pared back the western one, 311 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,760 but they still held a 10 year celebration. 312 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,760 How tone deaf is that? You just laid off 1% of your 313 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,320 population and you closed an office, but you're going to 314 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,320 celebrate another office being open for 10 years? 315 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,480 Even that 1%, it's meant to minimize the effect of what they 316 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:29,240 did because the 1% came from all of the support organizations. 317 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,120 So right, 1% of the agency is somewhere around 140 people. 318 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,000 They actually laid off closer to 200 by my tally, but let's go 319 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,360 with the 1:40. Starting when the reduction in 320 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,320 force conversation started happening, the agency messaged 321 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,440 the only jobs that were safe in the agency were patent 322 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,840 examiners, trademark examining attorneys, and there's their 323 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,760 immediate supervisors. So anybody who could do those 324 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:02,680 jobs went back to those jobs. So you had like this exodus of 325 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,400 people from all of the support organizations who could be 326 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,640 patent examiners or who could be trademark examining attorneys, 327 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,320 and they went into those jobs and then those were safe jobs, 328 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,320 so they were exempted. So out of 14,000 people that 329 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,720 existed in the agency on September 30th, 10,000 of those 330 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,200 jobs were safe and weren't going to be part of the reduction in 331 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,400 force. So all 200 came from the 332 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:34,240 remaining 4000, which of course is more like 20% of 333 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,040 organizations. So numbers matter and truth 334 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,920 matters. So let's talk truth. 335 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,400 And like I said, one of the things that they are finding out 336 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,360 now is that, yeah, they laid off too many people, but they don't 337 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,320 have authority to hire anybody but patent examiners and 338 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,320 trademark examining attorneys. That is just. 339 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,600 Bizarre it Yeah, I. Was going to say it nonsensical 340 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:58,640 right? Like that's. 341 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Make it make sense. Yeah, make it make sense because 342 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,000 I feel like it's probably and I, I put it in a term that I 343 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,320 understand it's kind of like with the FBI, you could say, OK, 344 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,880 well we're only hiring agents, but you can't do the work if you 345 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,800 only have that one job role like. 346 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,200 Agents crash their cars way too much. 347 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,160 We also have to hire the guys who work in the automotive 348 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,480 section. And women. 349 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,040 Yeah. Yeah, my favorite is right. 350 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:30,400 A patent examiner does everything online. 351 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,440 They can't be IT and the patent examiner and you need IT to do 352 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,960 the patent examining. And yet they laid off 50 IT 353 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,560 people on October 1st. Yeah, so again, when when the 354 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,520 system crashes. It's going to fix it, Yes. 355 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,720 And part of the places where they took these, especially on 356 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,520 the IT side, like they took them away from the help desk. 357 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,520 So the examiner was telling me that they needed to call the 358 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,320 help desk and they were told that they had to wait for seven 359 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,680 hours to get help, but in the meantime, over those seven 360 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:13,160 hours, the help desk closed. Like there's just so much going 361 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,000 on. The way that I've tried to 362 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,880 explain it to others is there's so many different changes, and 363 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,760 each one of these little changes has ripple effects that just 364 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,480 have an effect on morale, that have an effect on people's 365 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,440 ability to get the work done, on people's ability to do the work. 366 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,080 Well, the agency did this whole contract reduction thing. 367 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,400 Every contract that's over $100,000 has to be approved by 368 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,480 the secretary himself. The director of the agency can 369 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,680 only approve contracts that are $10,000 or less over the 370 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,400 lifetime of the contract. Well, one of the jobs of 371 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,520 examiners is to search prior art. 372 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,560 And I'm sure you guys know what database subscriptions look 373 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,360 like. They cancelled one of the 374 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:59,480 biggest prior databases and the subscriptions to that because it 375 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,160 was so expensive and they didn't realize that they were cutting 376 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,320 off the examiner's ability to actually do their job, to search 377 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,000 the prior art with respect to that particular innovation and 378 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,280 to move that along. When you say the director, you 379 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,600 mean like the director of the entire US Patent Office? 380 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,560 Yeah. For anything over $10,000. 381 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,520 He can do anything under 10,000, $1000, anything over. 382 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,880 And then there's an approval process with Commerce that goes 383 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,400 into like in between 10,000 and 100,000. 384 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,160 And then anything over $100,000 over the lifetime of the 385 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,880 contract has to be done by the Secretary of Commerce himself. 386 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,560 OK. But under $10,000, it has to go 387 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,080 all the way to your agency's. Director. 388 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,040 Yes, Oh my God, that in and of itself. 389 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,640 Like I think his time is probably more valuable than 390 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:56,360 approving $10,000 contracts. He actually just had a 5 hour 391 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,880 open chat where he just sat on a Teams chat and anybody that they 392 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,680 wanted to could pop in and ask questions. 393 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,240 I mean, that's a great open door policy, but yeah. 394 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,600 I just the contracts that the 10,000 or less, I mean that's. 395 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,240 That that's. Something that's. 396 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:20,040 Something that we we delegate out at like the GS 1415 level. 397 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,440 Why would you not? Yeah, right. 398 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,200 Like, I mean, there there are so many guidelines around federal 399 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,920 contracting practices that that makes no sense other than to 400 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,240 throttle the work that an agency can do. 401 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:40,040 Yeah, it's it's the whole we want to make government smaller, 402 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,720 but in doing so it makes everything unusable. 403 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:46,200 Right. Yeah. 404 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,560 You know, I mean, there were, there were at least two 405 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,000 contracts that I'm aware of that got cancelled. 406 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,280 I think they may have managed to put one of them back on when the 407 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,600 examiners kind of basically said we can't do this, like we can't 408 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,840 do our jobs without this database. 409 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,600 You know, the examiners were just like, I have to be able to 410 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,880 search these databases in in order to come up with prior art 411 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,800 for me to do my job, yeah. You've just taken away their. 412 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,840 Ability right again, make it make sense for me. 413 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,440 You took an agency that was functioning just fine that was 414 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,640 making money and not just making money within the federal 415 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,520 government, but really supporting businesses making 416 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,840 money and contributing to the GDP and everything else That 417 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,520 part of it. I, I just, I still don't 418 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,360 understand why any of these changes needed to happen. 419 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,240 I will say, right, the agency for sure wasn't perfect. 420 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,040 No agency is. Were there things that could be 421 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,560 done or that needed to be done in a different way? 422 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,000 Absolutely. But instead of perhaps taking a 423 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320 chainsaw to the agency, a scalpel might have worked a 424 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,280 little bit better. I would imagine with any sort of 425 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,680 patent application, there's probably some sort of expected 426 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,600 turn around time. Do you have any sense of how how 427 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,200 all of this has impacted the processing time for a business 428 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,640 that's trying to protect their intellectual property? 429 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,240 It's absolutely gone up, and it's going to go up even 430 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,840 further. The agency is touting that it 431 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,720 has brought the backlog down. What they aren't saying is that 432 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,600 people have actually filed less applications that, oh, I don't 433 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,440 know, almost exactly equals how much they've touted. 434 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,400 They've reduced the backlog because in uncertain economic 435 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,720 times, people don't want to put the expense towards a patent 436 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,400 application. It is an expensive process. 437 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,400 People will make harder decisions about what they're 438 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,920 going to protect and what they're not. 439 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,640 In uncertain economic times, that. 440 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,560 Makes sense? Yeah, that part makes sense. 441 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,360 Yeah, that makes sense. If it's, if it's, I mean, you've 442 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,280 got to be diligent with your money and what you're going to 443 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,320 invest in. And if it's going to take too 444 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,680 long, you just move forward with other means. 445 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,920 Yeah. So yeah, the, the process of 446 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,040 leaving I, it was a grief process. 447 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,520 It was like losing a loved one because I loved that job. 448 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,720 I loved my team. I loved the people that we, you 449 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,920 know, were able to serve and that we were honestly honored to 450 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,440 interact with on a regular basis. 451 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,160 I, I got to meet so many amazing people who they're really smart 452 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,680 and they're really brilliant and they're trying to bring new 453 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,320 ideas into the world that the job was an honor of a lifetime. 454 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,520 I absolutely loved doing it. And every single day I felt like 455 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,960 I got to work on behalf of the American people in a way that, I 456 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,360 mean, I still get to represent intellectual property owners in 457 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:49,280 my new job at Holland and Heart. And, and it is phenomenal 458 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,360 because some of the people that I interacted with before have 459 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,480 come to me and said, Hey, we really appreciated the way we 460 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,120 worked with you. Can we work together again? 461 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,200 Which is unbelievable. Like I'm just so filled with 462 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,680 gratitude about that. But it is different. 463 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:06,280 It it's a, it's a different dynamic. 464 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,240 And then the best part of the entire story of the closing of 465 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,840 the Rocky Mountain office is that they issued a request for 466 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,680 public comment in the Federal Register asking where in the 467 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,760 Rocky Mountain region they should locate an office. 468 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,120 I don't know. Where there was one, where there 469 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,240 is one that still has a lease for five more years. 470 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,920 Actually, just for the record, where what city was the previous 471 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,680 one at that they just closed? Denver. 472 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,680 Denver. Oh, that seems logical. 473 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,840 So where would you get it? A Rocky Mountain. 474 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,400 Or they thinking like Casper or I don't know, Bozeman. 475 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,800 I'm thinking maybe they're thinking not in a blue state, 476 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,400 but yeah, I mean, I it's, it's just hilarious. 477 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,200 It's like, well, I don't know. One of the ways that the agency 478 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,200 decided to locate the offices. And mind you, they went through 479 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,720 an extensive RFP process. There were over 80, that's 80 480 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:07,240 cities that actually applied to get a regional Patent Office in 481 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,640 their city. So Denver was chosen out of 80 482 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,080 different cities. There were reasons for that, not 483 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,200 the least of which is, you know, Denver is an amazingly 484 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,040 innovative community. It's an amazingly innovative 485 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,280 hub. There's a whole, I'll just say 486 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,080 mess of technologies that are here. 487 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,560 The technology base is very diversified. 488 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,680 It's phenomenal. They went through this, this 489 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,120 entire RFP process. And one of the bases was which 490 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:36,920 time zone is each of the regional offices in? 491 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,440 And so when you think of the Mountain time zone, what city do 492 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,280 you think of? Yeah, right, Major. 493 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,400 Rocky Mountains, You think Denver. 494 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,360 Major transportation hub, major universities, you know, 2 495 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,280 national, well, two national labs within a couple of hours of 496 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,960 us. Noah, NIST, Denver is actually 497 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,920 the biggest in terms of number of agencies that are represented 498 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,600 outside of Washington, DC So yeah, yeah. 499 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,280 Oh man. So is there anything that would 500 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,640 have changed your decision to leave? 501 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,480 Yes, but it it would have been the reversal of a whole series 502 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,000 of kind of of decisions that the agency made. 503 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,520 Again, it just became very clear that they wanted my job to 504 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,600 change in a way that truly like didn't need someone with 30 505 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,040 years of intellectual property experience doing it anymore. 506 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,200 Wow. So yeah, the breakup was hard. 507 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,640 Yeah, and that's what it feels like. 508 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,480 It feels like a breakup. It absolutely does. 509 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,240 And it kind of still feels like I'm finding my feet with, you 510 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,240 know, my new job. So much trust, right? 511 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,240 Because when you go to work for the federal government, you 512 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:55,000 trade the wealth of private industry for the flexibility and 513 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,600 stability of the federal government job in every single 514 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,320 way. They just put out the 515 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,480 flexibility and the stability. And then it made that equation 516 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,560 so unbalanced, you know, it just did not make sense to stay in 517 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,120 that role anymore. I'm truly one of those weirdos, 518 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,400 right? Like, I spent 20 years in being 519 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,880 an intellectual property attorney before I went to the 520 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,040 government and then ten years in the federal government. 521 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,480 So it, it wasn't weird that I was going to, you know, go back 522 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,480 to it. There was always a thought in my 523 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,040 mind, maybe I'll go back to private practice, but not like 524 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,280 this. Not like this for sure. 525 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,720 I I really, really, really hoped I was going to be able to retire 526 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,000 from the federal government. Right. 527 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,720 Yeah, I know. And there's a there's a whole 528 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,440 grief that goes along with that. There is. 529 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,960 There absolutely is. So you've talked about Holland 530 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,040 and Hart, that's where you are now. 531 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,120 So what have you been doing there? 532 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,200 What am I doing? I am now a private practice 533 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,120 intellectual property attorney. I was joking with a friend of 534 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,320 mine today. I was like, Yep, I will do 535 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,960 whatever anybody asks me to do and they pay me to do it. 536 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,080 There you go. No, right. 537 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,400 It, it really is trying to build a practice, you know, of 538 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,480 intellectual property work again and seeing, you know, what I can 539 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,640 do with, with companies and especially, I think helping 540 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,600 guide them through all of the uncertainty that the changes 541 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,200 that the US Patent and Trademark Office are creating for 542 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,640 stakeholders, giving them guidance about what do you need 543 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,360 to do in response to. Because like I said, each one of 544 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,240 those changes has that ripple effect out. 545 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,800 And the agency may think that it has a ripple effect only within 546 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,040 the agency, but that's not true because the agency and 547 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,640 corporations and law firms have a very symbiotic relief 548 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,840 relationship. So what happens to the 549 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,240 examiner's effects people on the outside? 550 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,640 Absolutely. Well, we're lucky to have you 551 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,360 helping and guiding with some inside knowledge, even though 552 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,360 things are changing daily. But the last question is, would 553 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,560 you ever go back? Oh, that's a loaded question. 554 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,120 I know, I know, I know, I know. Would I go back to the role that 555 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,800 I had before? Probably not and, and not the 556 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,280 least of which so much trust is gone. 557 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,360 I, I don't know that I could go back into that role because I'm 558 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,560 a very different person than I was even three months ago on 559 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,600 that level. But, you know, there are 560 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:40,040 positions where maybe I could have a more positive effect if 561 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,560 for example, right, like if if I was to be nominated for the 562 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,240 director, then that would be something that I would consider 563 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,760 because I would think that I could hopefully reflect positive 564 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,800 change. But that would be the the 565 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,480 biggest consideration for me would be am I the right person 566 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,400 to do that at the right time? And yeah, and Lord knows they 567 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,080 need positive change right now. Yeah, positive change would be 568 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,040 good. Positive change everywhere right 569 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,560 now would be really good. Yes, absolutely. 570 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,880 Thank you so much for taking the time with us today and and 571 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,800 telling us more about your experience here. 572 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,320 Yeah, I think, you know, the only other thing that we touched 573 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,080 on, and I don't know if it made it on the recording, but I would 574 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,240 like to say it for all of the people who were part of that 575 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,560 reduction in force. I had the privilege and the 576 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,600 pleasure of serving with some of the most dedicated, most loyal, 577 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,720 smart, amazing people. And every single person that was 578 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,160 part of that reduction in force that happened on October 1st is 579 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,840 one of those people. It's just tragic what has 580 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,000 happened and to have their lives upended that way and for some of 581 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,320 them to have their lives upended in a way that was extremely 582 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,880 abrupt. The agency released the press 583 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,720 release about the Rocky Mountain office closing at 12 O 4:00 AM 584 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,080 Eastern Time. I was in Salt Lake City at the 585 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,480 time. I started getting messages 586 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,520 around 2O clock in the morning. By 4 O clock in the morning, I 587 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,040 was on the phone with friends of mine who were on the East Coast. 588 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,719 A friend of mine said, hey, I'm going to go look at what the 589 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,880 agency is saying, see if they put out any more messaging about 590 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,159 the closing of the office, opened up his computer and found 591 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:26,199 out that his access had been cut off. 592 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,639 And that's how he found out he was part of the production in 593 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,400 force. One of my employees came into 594 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,760 the Rocky Mountain office that morning and her badge wouldn't 595 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,199 work at the door and that's how she found out she was part of 596 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,880 the production in force for the agency. 597 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,239 To then put out an e-mail that said that all of the decisions, 598 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,679 the closing and the reduction in force were made with careful and 599 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,000 deliberate evidence based decision making with the utmost 600 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,760 consideration for their workforce is just something that 601 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,720 does not sit well at all with any of the way that they treated 602 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:03,720 any of those truly phenomenal people. 603 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,040 Yeah, that doesn't sound like any consideration was given to 604 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,040 the people who should have known first that their jobs were being 605 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,040 cut. I mean, that should be upsetting 606 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,440 to anybody who requires the services of the Patent Office as 607 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,120 well, because that endangers the entire U.S. economy. 608 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,320 Well, we will be watching for Tuesdays to see how things go. 609 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:26,920 Yeah. So will I? 610 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,560 Yes. Yes. 611 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,120 Well, I'll be watching that. Well, Molly, thank you so much 612 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,960 and thank you for forking off with us. 613 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,080 I loved it. Thank you guys. 614 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,400 Thank you. Thanks for tuning into this 615 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,080 episode of Forking Off. To our listeners still in 616 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,240 government, remember your integrity is worth more than 617 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,840 your TSP. Leaving doesn't mean giving up 618 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,400 on public service, it just means finding new ways to serve. 619 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,880 Until next time. Keep your ethics. 620 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Keep your dignity. And we'll keep telling these 621 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,640 stories. If you're a former Fed with a 622 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,720 story to tell, or you're wrestling with your own ethical 623 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:04,960 crossroads, reach out to us at info@forkingoff.com. 624 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,200 Today's episode was created, produced and edited by Jill and 625 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,760 Phillip Fields. Special thanks to our guest, 626 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,200 Molly Kachowski. You can find more information 627 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,440 about this episode at forkingoff.com. 628 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,440 Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky, Mastodon, LinkedIn, or 629 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:32,000 wherever you get your podcasts. Join us Monday, December 1st. 630 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,200 As we talked with former EPA employee Andrew Crider. 631 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,040 You had, within a couple of months, literally hundreds of 632 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,440 organizations around the country who were relying on funding from 633 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,520 EPA to do their jobs and to pay their people and, and to help 634 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,680 their communities who no longer had access to their money and 635 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,400 whose calls to EPA were not being answered. 636 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,960 If you are a grantee and you call your EPA contact and 637 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,320 they've never call you back, you start to panic. 638 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,040 And so you call your congressperson. 639 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,400 And what does your congressperson do when they hear 640 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,240 from a constituent whose EPA money has been frozen? 641 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,000 They call EPA, and the person they call the EPA was me. 642 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,120 So I was being told to essentially Stonewall and lie to 643 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,240 members of Congress. That wasn't cool with me. 644 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,560 And so it became a choice between do I keep my job or do I 645 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,040 keep my voice? And I chose to keep my voice. 646 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,280 Well, the administrator himself said I was an example of the 647 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,640 kind of employee who, and I'm going to use air quotes, makes 648 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,200 his job more difficult. And my immediate response was 649 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,760 good because my job has been really difficult.