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Stories from Super Touring. 
During the 90s, the BTCC rumour 

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mill often went into OverDrive. 
There were always whispers and 

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secrets of drives and cars that 
were in the pipeline, some more 

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realistic than others. 
Welcome to the latest episode of

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Stories From Super Touring. 
I'm Levi Riley and we're doing 

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something a little bit different
today on the show as we look 

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back at some of the rumours and 
entries that never quite made it

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onto the grid during the Super 
Touring era. 

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That's right, on this podcast we
are always keen to try new ideas

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and this week we thought we'd 
try something slightly 

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different. 
So please let us know if you 

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like it, if you'd like more of 
this, if you'd like less of it, 

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just give us your thoughts. 
Looking through these entries, 

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there were some absolutely crazy
ideas during the series of 

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Touring cars, weren't there? 
They were, but without going 

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into too much detail for each of
you, which is the one that 

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really sticks out for you? 
I think for me probably it's the

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as we'll I'm sure we'll come on 
to the the Mercedes Pro Drive 

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entry that was rumoured for the 
end of 1993 into 94. 

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I think for a couple of reasons.
First of all the Mercedes works 

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team I think against the BMWs in
particular would have been a a 

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brilliant battle. 
But also the the potential of 

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burnt Schneider who massively 
successful touring car driver 

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albeit in the bit more powerful 
beasts of the 90s and early 

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northeast DTM cars but fantastic
DTM driver and and touring car 

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driver but but never obviously 
really raced in in the BTC or 

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never raced in the BTCC. 
So that would have been 

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something to see again how he 
had got on against wrinkle hot 

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tar, queenie and and Co in 93 or
94. 

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Definitely those two things that
stood out for me when we're 

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looking into this doing this 
episode and the Citroen BX, 

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which I know, I know us guys are
spoken about before and and 

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pretty much laughed about it. 
But that was sort of being built

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by the end, at the end of 92, 
going in for the season 93 I 

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believe. 
I'm sure I might get corrected 

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if that is wrong, but I don't 
think it actually made it onto 

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the into the championship. 
But then there was that also the

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one with the potential of Prost 
and Renner. 

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Yeah. 
That one I think would have been

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a good one and I think further 
into this podcast, I'm sure 

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we'll put Charlie and I've got 
it. 

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I've had a little bit of inside 
info as to sort of what happened

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there or what we've, you know, 
we're just with the word being 

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mentioned. 
That's all I'm going to say, and

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that's why that was. 
Interesting. 

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Well, for me, as we worked out 
last week with my Keith Oder 

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comment, I quite, I quite like 
sort of these childish sort of 

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things. 
And I just have images of this 

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Mazda 323 painted up like Mr. 
Blobby with David Coulthard at 

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the wheel. 
Blobby pink with yellow spots 

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with Earl Edmunds in the pitch. 
Earl Edmunds. 

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House party all down the side of
it. 

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So yeah, there's a there's an 
interesting story for for 1994 

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which involves Noel's House 
party Mr. Blobby and David 

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Coulthard, which, well, we'll 
let him explain later on. 

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So with all that in mind, let's 
get straight into it. 

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We start off in 1991 where the 
rumor mill was a little quieter.

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It was the first season of the 
BTCC where there would be only 

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one class of car, which meant 
waving goodbye to the 4th Sierra

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Cosworths that had been the only
cast to win races outright over 

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the last few seasons. 
The move to the single two litre

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touring car formula opened up 
the championship and encouraged 

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other manufacturers to enter the
fray. 

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It was not only manufacturers 
that would look to enter, 

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however, as the new rules also 
opened up privateer entries. 

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There were rumours of a 
privately run Renault, Lancia, 

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Peugeot and Rover, and once we 
saw the Peugeot Four O 5 of 

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Andrew Mackenzie at a few races 
and the Graham Davis Rover 216 

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at Brands Hatch, the Renault or 
Lancia never appeared. 

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Al would have been interesting 
to see these entries in the 

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Championship. 
Yeah, I mean as you just said, 

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we saw the the Four O 5 Andrew 
Mackenzie make its debut at the 

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the British Grand Prix support 
round actually and it finished 

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17th. 
It wasn't a very competitive 

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car, but it very rarely was for 
Peugeot was it, you know in the 

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BTC season. 
But, and we did see the Graham 

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Davis Rover at a couple where he
he he went to the first few 

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rounds of the season and he 
didn't make a race start until 

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Brands Hatch in August, where 
the car ran for three laps 

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before an engine failure. 
His Moto build team built that 

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Rover two and six themselves 
with the aim of possibly 

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enticing Rover into a a works 
programme later on. 

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But yeah, as I say, the car only
ever ran for three laps in any 

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race, so we hardly saw that. 
And the Renault would be an 

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interesting one, it would be a 
19, but that never that never 

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appeared. 
And I don't know what Lancia 

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model would have raced, but it'd
be pretty exotic, wouldn't it, 

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to have a Lancia in the BTC? 
Just like a martini addition 

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into. 
Garlic would have gone down 

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well, yeah, that would have been
nice. 

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Yeah. 
It's no surprise that some of 

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these more unusual entries 
didn't make it past people's 

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brains and and never actually 
ended up on track. 

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Rumours around these privateer 
entries were that manufacturers 

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were rather anxious about their 
cars being raced and were 

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worried about them performing 
poorly and started to put 

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pressure on them to dissuade the
privateers from entering Adam. 

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Can you understand why a 
manufacturer had maybe not 

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necessarily want to see one of 
their cars struggling at the 

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back of the field with a 
privateer entry? 

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Yes, 100% I completely do. 
You know you imagine being the 

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the boss of a a top mark brand, 
worldwide brand and then you've 

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got, you've got the danger of 
your brand being tarnished 

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really haven't you? 
So depends how much they looked 

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in, you know how much they look 
into it really. 

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And that's why when you look at 
all the manufacturers that have 

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been involved in touring cars or
any any motorsport really, but 

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particularly touring cars that 
were that were on the subject is

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the war going at the absolute 4 
ball. 

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You know, in terms of budget, 
whatever people they need, 

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however much money they need to 
throw at it, they have done it 

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because they've had to succeed. 
They can't go in there half 

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heartedly and just do half a job
because it's only ever going to 

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damage the the brand. 
Like when you think about the 

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discussion that we've already 
had with me, Linford about the 

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Peugeot's, I think it just shows
because Mick did a great job 

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with what he had, but he did not
have full backing from the 

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motorsport side that they've 
been building these cars in 

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France with Laura Niello doing 
his thing out there winning 

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everything. 
You'd naturally think that this 

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Peugeot was going to be built by
the same people, developed by 

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the same people and then just, 
you know Peugeot UK sort of 

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funding the program over here. 
But you had to start from 

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scratch and and and had no 
support from France whatsoever. 

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So it just shows you, you know 
when you haven't got the back 

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in, even with you know, as good 
a job as he did was good at the 

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drivers that he had with the 
likes of Tim and Patrick and 

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Radisich. 
They've all gone in there and 

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tried to do the best, but the 
car just wasn't up to it. 

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And it just shows you that you 
know when the brands are 

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involved directly to have to go 
at it. 

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And so I can understand them not
wanting somebody to go in there 

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and just do, you know, half a 
job because it's never going to 

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look good for them, is it? 
No. 

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And it's not just the sort of 
the lower end of the privateer 

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scale that that manufacturers 
would want to dissuade. 

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We'll talk about this car later 
on in the podcast, but there's 

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the well known story of the 1998
Toyota Corolla that Andy Rouse 

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had built and designed. 
You know, Toyota weren't even 

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willing to back that. 
You know, Andy Rouse used to run

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a Toyota Works program. 
You know Andy Rouse is a four 

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time champion, you know, well 
renowned designer and engineer 

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of touring cars and and racing 
cars and even then Toyota was 

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still reluctant to support his 
idea. 

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So you know it it just shows 
that they're very, very wary of 

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their brands and the the 
reputation that the brands have.

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So yeah, I I I totally 
understand why certain people 

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would be wanting to dissuade 
people from running their cars. 

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Other rumours from 1991 included
former rally champion Jimmy 

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McRae entering the BTCC in a 
third pro drive BMW. 

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The drivers dependent on the 
right funding being put into 

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place and it never materialise. 
Now what would it have been like

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seeing Jimmy McRae in that third
Pro Dr. BMWG Fint? 

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I mean, it would have been 
interesting wouldn't it? 

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I mean it wouldn't have been the
first time Jimmy raced in the 

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BTCC and he did a handful of 
races in 1990 actually in a in a

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BMW and he was one of the the 
endurance drivers in the in the 

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year, so it wouldn't have been 
all new to him. 

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But yeah, it's always exciting. 
You know the name McRae. 

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It's still now, doesn't it? 
Yeah, you know it would have 

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been, it would have been great 
to see Jimmy in the in the 

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Championship and would have been
interesting to see how he would 

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have compared against Super and 
Palmer in the in the other Pro 

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drive cars. 
But yeah, sadly that didn't 

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happen. 
But we did get his son in a Pro 

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Drive BMWA couple of years later
up at Knockhill. 

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So we did get McRae in a BMW in 
the end, but not Jimmy. 

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I think even with Jimmy, if he'd
have gone in there, I think it's

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one thing's for sure. 
He wouldn't have been afraid of 

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getting his elbows out, no. 
No, quite true. 

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He'd have got firmly stuck in 
just just the, you know the 

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character that they they are as 
a family and how fast they are 

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and the same with Colin. 
You know they're not afraid of 

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of getting their elbows out and 
getting stuck in. 

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So that'd have been been a good 
one to see, especially in a in a

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works built proper car, yeah. 
You know, yeah, with that. 

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Back in, I think you'd have 
been. 

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I think you'd have done a good 
job, personally. 

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There was also a rumour 
regarding a Honda Concerto 

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making appearance with either 
James Kay graduating from the 

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CRX series or Ray Arms driving 
the car. 

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Given that he had recent BTCC 
experience with a Civic, 

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however, little else is known 
about that entry. 

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Would have been interested in 
that one because the Honda 

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Concerto was basically a re 
engineered Rover two and six or 

186
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:05,760
vice versa. 
That should say, yeah. 

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So yeah, they would have been. 
Obviously there was the the 

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Rover of Graham Davis that we've
already mentioned and that would

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have been a very similar car to 
have designed and built that 

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one, the the Concerto. 
The rumours in 1992 were more 

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about what was going on behind 
the scenes and in the 

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transporters, so we'll leave 
those alone for now I reckon. 

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But in 1993 we do have our first
big story from the 90s. 

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Mercedes were plotting to enter 
the 1993 championship for the 

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00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,200
final three rounds of the season
after losing BMW support at the 

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end of 1992. 
Pro Drive were heavily linked 

197
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,360
with a work supported 
Mercedes-Benz C Class program 

198
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,200
for the BTCC with Tim Suddon as 
the lead driver. 

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00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,040
The plan was to do the last 
three rounds of the 1993 season 

200
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,320
before stepping up to a full 
program in 94. 

201
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,720
The project was top secret but 
was never given the green light.

202
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,440
The car was going to be built by
AMG in Germany and developed by 

203
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DTM ace Bern Schneider, who was 
a favorite to run in the second 

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car, Adam. 
It probably would have been a 

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special thing to have seen a 
Mercedes brand in the series, 

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wouldn't it? 
I think, yeah, 100%. 

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00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,360
I mean, you look, we've already 
highlighted the fact how big a 

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00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,360
name Bern Schneider was in the 
DTM and and just how huge 

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00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,760
Mercedes are in German touring 
cars. 

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00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,920
You know, with the DTM program 
they had and they're in it for 

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00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,400
many, many years. 
They won multiple championships,

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just massive. 
You know, I used to really enjoy

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watching the DTM. 
It was great because they were 

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00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,720
just, yeah, just like touring 
cars on steroids when they they 

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00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:55,280
were just something else and and
big budgets then as well, you 

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00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,760
know that was sort of back in 
like the Kiki Rosberg days, 

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00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,440
Ludvig days like that. 
Again, it was rumoured, but I 

218
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,480
think it was quite well known 
that the budgets then, when they

219
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,720
had active suspension and things
like that, the budgets during 

220
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,960
that era of DTMS was was pretty,
you know, nearly on par with 

221
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,480
what Formula One producers were 
at the time. 

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00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,160
That's how how big it was. 
But yeah, to see Mercedes coming

223
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,600
to the BCCC would have been a 
huge deal, huge deal. 

224
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,680
I'd have loved to have seen it 
but obviously didn't happen. 

225
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,920
But yeah, but I think, again, 
like I've alluded to already, 

226
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,400
it's as a brand like that coming
into it. 

227
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,080
They'd have thrown money at it 
to make it work. 

228
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,600
You know, they would have come 
in to do one job and one job 

229
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:40,080
only. 
That's to come in and win. 

230
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,080
Yeah, I. 
Think they decided to eventually

231
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,960
just focus on the Class 1 
touring cars and. 

232
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,560
And probably did they do a good 
job there, You know, you know, 

233
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,880
possibly running, you know, a 
bit like Alpha. 

234
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,680
You know, Alpha tried both for a
bit and then withdrew from Class

235
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,040
2 again. 
So you know it. 

236
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,760
I think, yeah, they were doing 
enough in Class 1 touring cars 

237
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,040
that they probably didn't need 
to do a Class 2 program 

238
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,160
alongside it. 
Do you? 

239
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,960
Think not. 
Only have the other danger of of

240
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,160
potentially damaging the 
reputation of what they were 

241
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,280
doing out there. 
Yes. 

242
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,480
It's like if he isn't broke, 
don't fix it sort of thing. 

243
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,520
So he was working for them 
tremendously out there. 

244
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,640
So I think to come in and do it 
over here would have been a good

245
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,120
thing to show they can do it at 
both sides, you know, other 

246
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,120
sides of the water. 
But I just think you know what 

247
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,800
they were doing was so good. 
Would it have taking their 

248
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,760
efforts and if everything's 100%
focused over there, can it also 

249
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,440
be 100% focused over here as 
well? 

250
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,840
Mercedes were one of the big 
brands of the era that I would 

251
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,760
have liked to have seen. 
As Adam just said, it would have

252
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,000
been huge having Mercedes in the
championship. 

253
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,240
The other one that I would have 
always liked to have seen in the

254
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,520
series was Rover. 
I just felt that a BTCC with a 

255
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,120
Rover would have been with a 
Rover Works entry would have 

256
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,400
been great at the time, but 
sadly it never, never came to 

257
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:01,800
be. 
It was rumoured quite a lot. 

258
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,200
But yeah, this was one of the 
major manufacturers that people 

259
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,800
often sort of say, well, why 
aren't they there? 

260
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,280
Because you had BMW, you know, 
IO D came over. 

261
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,120
Why weren't Mercedes involved? 
But you know, as I say, I think 

262
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,600
Class one was their priority. 
I think the. 

263
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,120
Rover thing could have been done
I think in terms of you know the

264
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,520
op pro Dr. WSR, you know you've 
got these teams that would have 

265
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,120
been there. 
You know what all manufacturers 

266
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,360
have done they've gone to these 
companies to to develop the car 

267
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,360
and to do the job. 
But like most things around 

268
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,680
that's based around Rover. 
I'm guessing budget wasn't. 

269
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,640
Wasn't there? 
To do it and and that's the 

270
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,480
bottom line, but I'm sure they 
would have liked to have done 

271
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,960
it. 
But again, to do properly, you 

272
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,080
need X millions of pounds to do 
it, and it was probably never 

273
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,640
available to them to no, no to 
put the F in, yeah. 

274
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,600
I mean the the money at the time
in the Super Touring era, yeah, 

275
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,480
they wouldn't be able to get 
that sort of budget together. 

276
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,320
We did get Rover in the end with
MG in in 2001 for a few seasons,

277
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,880
but obviously that was when the 
the BTC spec cars came into play

278
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,800
and obviously that was a lot 
more affordable for the likes of

279
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,640
Rover MG. 
So understandable that they 

280
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,240
would come in during a cheaper 
period of the championships, we 

281
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,600
say and. 
Even then, you don't. 

282
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,920
We don't really know how. 
How evolved were they? 

283
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:15,480
Like? 
Was he? 

284
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,120
It's true. 
Completely, 100% funded by MGI? 

285
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:20,520
Doubt it very. 
No, I don't. 

286
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,920
Yeah, I don't think and I think 
as it as it went on, I think 

287
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,000
the, the involved, the financial
involvement became less and less

288
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,960
the. 
Other Pro Dr. Rema from 1993 was

289
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,640
an interesting one that didn't 
seem to get reported much at the

290
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,360
time, but was shared with us by 
John Cleland when he appeared on

291
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,400
Stories From Super Touring. 
Let's hear what you had to say 

292
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,320
now. 
Well. 

293
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,040
Interestingly. 
A year before that, Dave 

294
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,920
Richards of Pro Dr. contacted me
and asked me if I would drive an

295
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:56,600
hour for a meal, which would be 
sponsored by martini and have 

296
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,200
Pirelli tires on. 
And that was the that was the 

297
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,960
that was the deal. 
And we talked. 

298
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,440
We met. 
He and his wife, Karen and I 

299
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,200
went, had dinner, we discussed 
things and we talked about. 

300
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:09,319
The. 
Deal. 

301
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,520
And what it would be and who's 
going to run it and blah blah, 

302
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:18,599
blah, blah, blah and all that. 
And it's something that I wasn't

303
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,119
comfortable with and I don't 
know enough even to this day, I 

304
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,280
don't know what it was. 
Anyway, the deal never came. 

305
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,800
I turned the deal down and it 
didn't happen. 

306
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,720
And I think what? 
Dr. Was trying to do was to put 

307
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,640
me as the driver in the frame 
then he could pull Alpha then he

308
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,520
could pull Martini. 
Then he could pull Pirelli and 

309
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,920
as as the package. 
But I I said no. 

310
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,760
But thank you very much, you 
know, but it's probably not for 

311
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,280
me. 
Meanwhile, Gareth Howell was 

312
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,640
attempting to make his first 
attempt to race in the BTCC 

313
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:57,400
during 1993 with his self built 
4S Sapphire Alex Gareth tried 

314
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,720
his best to get into the BTCC, 
didn't he? 

315
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,640
And this was the first of of 
multiple attempts. 

316
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,160
Yeah. 
And this isn't, as I'm sure you 

317
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,560
know, a lot of people are now 
aware because every time we 

318
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,000
mention it, we do sort of make 
great pains to tell people that 

319
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,680
this isn't the Gareth Howell 
that everyone thinks of. 

320
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,680
When you think of Gareth Howell,
this isn't the the guy that went

321
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,920
on to race for Team Atomic 
Kitten, yes. 

322
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,400
And. 
And went on to win races in the 

323
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,040
BTCC with Dynamics. 
But it's another Gareth Howell, 

324
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,320
there's just there's two of 
them. 

325
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,840
And Gareth's first attempt was 
with this Ford series Sapphire 

326
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560
that he had self built, self 
designed. 

327
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,240
I have never seen this car. 
As far as I'm aware this car 

328
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,440
doesn't exist anymore. 
I've never seen evidence of it. 

329
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,840
So if anyone out there has any 
photographic evidence or 

330
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,480
evidence at this car existed, 
then we would love to see it 

331
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,160
because I've never seen it. 
I've only ever seen a mock up of

332
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:06,200
it and that was in the 1993 
media guide that I have and he's

333
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,480
listed in the in the entry list.
But yeah, this was his first 

334
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,920
attempt. 
He didn't get quite as close as 

335
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,480
he did later on in in 1999 and 
he made his second effort into 

336
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,680
the to get into the BTCC. 
But yeah, he was a Trier, wasn't

337
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,160
he? 
Bless him. 

338
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,200
A final rumour for 1993 was 
shared recently by our regular 

339
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,400
contributor Andrew Charman, who 
shared a story about Gary Cole 

340
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,920
designing A Citroen BX to race 
in the series. 

341
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,080
Let's remind ourselves now of 
what Andrew told us. 

342
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,840
Here I make a confession, but 
also revealed a project that no 

343
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,760
one I don't think ever knew 
about, because at the time of 

344
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,240
this particular race I was not 
yet a touring car journalist. 

345
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:58,160
I'd already worked at several 
BTCC meetings that season, but I

346
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,080
didn't actually become a proper 
full time touring card 

347
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,480
journalist until the following 
year with a short lived magazine

348
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,080
called Motor Racing 
International. 

349
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,840
I'd mainly at this stage been 
covering Thunder salons and I 

350
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,040
was in the point of wanting to 
get out of Thunder Salons 

351
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,080
because I see I could see it was
about to collapse, which it duly

352
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,040
did. 
My mate Gary Cole had raced in 

353
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,600
Thunderloons and we were at 
Silverstone together, firstly 

354
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,440
because we knew this race was 
going to be good and we wanted 

355
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:26,800
to see it. 
But. 

356
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,280
Secondly, because Gary wanted to
talk to the BTC CS technical 

357
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,320
head Peter Riches because Gary 
was had ambitions to graduate to

358
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,720
the BTCC with wait for it a 
Citroen BX. 

359
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,680
So. 
Then guys, what do we think 

360
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,440
about that potential entry of 
that Citroen BX then? 

361
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:52,440
Well, I know we've spoken about 
it before and and I mentioned it

362
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,600
at the beginning of this of this
episode, but yeah, yeah, not 

363
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,480
really much to say on it, really
from my side. 

364
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,240
And I don't know much about it. 
That's probably a good thing. 

365
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,120
So yeah, I don't know if anyone 
else can shed any light on this 

366
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:08,160
one. 
I think, Alex, you know quite a 

367
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,840
bit about this one, don't you? 
I didn't. 

368
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,400
Know anything about it? 
Until Andrew Charman told us 

369
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,360
about it, and I did. 
We did get a bit of a telling 

370
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:23,120
off from from a Citroen BX 
enthusiast on our Facebook page 

371
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,560
who who gave, who gave a good 
argument as to why this car 

372
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,120
shouldn't have been ridiculed 
and why it could well have been 

373
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:38,360
a good BTCC car. 
So yeah, so we are sorry if you 

374
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:43,240
were offended by us laughing at 
the Citroen BX, but if you want 

375
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,560
to. 
Want to try saying that without 

376
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,000
laughing? 
That would go a long way. 

377
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:52,160
It would have been a very 
unusual car to race in the BTCCI

378
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,800
think. 
What I was to me, what a strange

379
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,600
I mean again, I'm probably going
to get questioned. 

380
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,160
OK, why not that car, but just a
strange car to choose. 

381
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,480
I guess from the from the 
premise of being an independent 

382
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,920
you don't have. 
It's not like a manufacturer 

383
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,720
where you have a have a model 
that you have to you have to use

384
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,080
because that's the one you want 
to promote. 

385
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,480
You know you can have I guess 
the choice of any car you want. 

386
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,640
So why is Citroen BX but at? 
Least with some of the other 

387
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,760
guys that have done the 
privateers, they've chosen cars 

388
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,360
that are already exist in terms 
of touring car pedigree and it's

389
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,920
been proven that they can 
perform at a high level. 

390
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,440
I think there's all there's 
there's that danger of choosing 

391
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,160
a car where listen it's fine if 
you've got all the money in the 

392
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,840
world and you want to throw out 
the money at it and you want to 

393
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,640
go out you know 4 Bore and and 
and produced and be an absolute 

394
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,920
superstar and produce something 
that's never been done before 

395
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,360
and put it at the front end of 
the field. 

396
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,200
Fair play to anybody that can do
that. 

397
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,000
But I just think the people that
do this haven't got an endless 

398
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,560
pot of money. 
Gareth Howell was one that 

399
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,720
clearly put about 1/4 of 
£1,000,000 into it and and 

400
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,960
couldn't get the car anywhere 
near where he could do and he 

401
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,120
chose a car that in theory 
should have been, yeah, further 

402
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,040
further forward. 
So I just think it's always a 

403
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,480
gamble choosing a car that has 
not got any history at all in 

404
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,400
terms of it working. 
Maybe we'll have to ask Andrew 

405
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,160
if we can, if he can get Gary to
come on the podcast and tell us 

406
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,280
all about the car, that would be
really interesting, wouldn't it?

407
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,080
Into 1994 now and the rumour 
mills seemed to go into 

408
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,920
OverDrive. 
The main whispers at the start 

409
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,080
of the season was regarding an 
intriguing tie up with Master 

410
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,720
and Noel Edmonds of Knowles 
House Party fame. 

411
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,320
A young David Coulthard was 
being lined up to drive 

412
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,560
alongside Matt Neal in the 
Mazda, with the deal dependent 

413
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,400
on Edmund's IMG group sponsoring
the project. 

414
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,200
We spoke to Coulthard about 
this, so let's hear what he had 

415
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,000
to say about it now Not. 
At all, as well as I can 

416
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,880
remember I did, I did a little 
in 1990 I did a cut. 

417
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,280
I was saying to do a couple of 
races in for Vauxhall once I 

418
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,840
John Cleland and thankfully I 
broke my leg and Spy and 

419
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,240
Vauxhall Lotus so I didn't have 
to do the second race because 

420
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,760
it's one wheel drive and it felt
alien. 

421
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,280
Somebody may have been talking 
to to Mars on my behalf or you 

422
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,120
know, that time I was tested for
Williams and I was still very 

423
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:24,760
much focused on on single IMG. 
Maybe maybe they. 

424
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,560
Yeah, but I don't. 
Remember it yet? 

425
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,120
Actually, I've seen. 
I can see a picture of the car 

426
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,040
in my mind, but I have no 
recollection. 

427
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,320
I'm sorry I'm but I'm very bad 
at remembering things in the 

428
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,840
past anyway. 
Like there's some grand prix's 

429
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,400
that I've won. 
I don't remember. 

430
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,640
I I just don't have, you know, 
early Alzheimer's or something. 

431
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,160
I just don't have a good recall 
for that. 

432
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,960
Adam, how do you think call 
found would have done in the 

433
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,080
BTCC that year? 
I think it would have got 

434
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,360
roughed up, to be honest. 
I think it, I think it's 

435
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,400
probably the first couple of 
races and just thought they'd 

436
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,440
like been mugged in pure 
daylight. 

437
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,160
We've seen this with with 
people. 

438
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,480
I mean, look at the rouse, the 
scenario, Pembre, yeah. 

439
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,720
Like. 
One of the fastest drivers 

440
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,240
you're ever likely to see and 
meet and proven one of the most 

441
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,680
successful drivers of all time 
in touring cars. 

442
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,120
And he's got he's gone to 
Pembrey and got absolutely 

443
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,640
beaten up by everybody. 
I think for Coulthard and it's 

444
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,520
always difficult for people that
they've only raced single 

445
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,480
seater. 
So you got open wheel, no 

446
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,440
contact. 
For them to just come into that 

447
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,440
and just expect to just be quick
and be somewhere near the front.

448
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,240
Like, you know, you're going to 
get introduced to touring cars 

449
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,640
in quite a hefty way where 
you're going to get, you know, 

450
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,160
roughed up. 
Really. 

451
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,240
Yeah. 
And that's the thing. 

452
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,640
You've got to dish it out and 
people you have to sort of dish.

453
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,320
When I say this, I don't. 
It's not banger racing by. 

454
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:50,040
By no means. 
When I say dish it out, I mean 

455
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,200
like a little nudge here or a 
little nudge there or just let 

456
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,280
people know that like I'm, I'm 
here to stay and this is, you 

457
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,520
know, I'm serious about this. 
So if you want to dish it out, 

458
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,760
you're going to get it back. 
So. 

459
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:04,920
And that's sort of how it works 
in any sort of closed wheel 

460
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,720
racing, Rayleigh. 
And that's the respect that you 

461
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,680
build with other drivers. 
So you know where you stand with

462
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,000
them more than anything. 
So I think for somebody to come 

463
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,120
from such a high level of single
seater category to then come in 

464
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,000
amongst that is just literally 
like being thrown into the 

465
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,920
lion's den. 
I also feel that maybe I'm 

466
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,040
totally 100% wrong and I'm doing
DCA disservice here, but I also 

467
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:33,240
feel that he wouldn't be 100% 
focused or committed to the BTCC

468
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,720
because as he said in the in the
in the couple of sense, he's 

469
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,880
just said about it. 
You know, he wasn't really 

470
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,880
interested in in touring car 
racing. 

471
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,440
He was very much focused on 
making a career in Formula One. 

472
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,800
He was Williams test driver at 
the time and he wanted to get on

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,160
that Grand Prix grid and there 
was no way he would have just 

474
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,720
given all that up just to race 
on the BTCC grid. 

475
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,080
He he would have been focused on
getting into Formula One and. 

476
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,760
He'd be more focused on what 
current test drivers are now 

477
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,960
because you think back then 
there was no testing bans. 

478
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,720
You could go and test until the 
cows come out. 

479
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,280
You can go and test every day of
the week if you wanted to and 

480
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,200
that's why the bigger teams are 
the most budgets had had the the

481
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,920
joy of being able to do that and
develop their cars quicker. 

482
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,400
So from him he'd have been doing
a ton of testing at that time. 

483
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,960
So yeah, I don't think Touring 
cars would have been absolutely 

484
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,160
in the forefront of his mind 
here. 

485
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,600
So again, but it's, you know, 
it's good for the rumour mill, 

486
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,040
isn't it? 
It's good for us to think a lot 

487
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,880
of the possibilities. 
If he had come in, he. 

488
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,120
Wouldn't have been there long 
anyway, because Snetton was 

489
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:37,960
what, the second meeting of the 
season? 

490
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,920
And that's where that was the 
same weekend that that Senna 

491
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,040
passed away at Imola. 
And Coulthard had that drive, so

492
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,800
he he wouldn't have been in the 
series long anyway, because he 

493
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,400
would have. 
He would actually been called up

494
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,240
to to take the second Williams 
seat in in Formula One anyway. 

495
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,920
Do you? 
Think it was just literally 

496
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,640
there for rumours and a bit of 
PR exercise, yeah? 

497
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,080
I think, I think he sort of 
alluded to that when when I 

498
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,920
spoke to him, he sort of said 
that people were mentioning his 

499
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:13,200
name maybe just as a way to try 
and promote the the, the program

500
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,440
and he never really took it 
seriously in in any way. 

501
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,160
Out the the world of BTCC, the 
world of Crinkly Bottom that 

502
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,360
have been a pretty interesting 
tie up isn't. 

503
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,480
It certainly said this. 
I'll turn this podcast on now. 

504
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,120
It would have been very bizarre.
Crinkly bottom Team Mazda, for 

505
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,320
those of you who are wondering 
what on earth Levi is on about, 

506
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,680
get. 
Onto YouTube Knowles House 

507
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,280
party. 
So Noel Edmonds used to be on a 

508
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,400
TV show called Knowles House 
Party, which was primetime. 

509
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,520
Saturday night, by the way, 
yeah, it was a great. 

510
00:28:54,080 --> 00:29:00,640
Saturday night TV Chaos based on
it was based in a a mansion that

511
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,520
was in the village of Crinkly 
Bottom. 

512
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,080
Oh no. 
You got, you got to explain. 

513
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,480
You got to explain, you got to. 
You've also got to explain Mr. 

514
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,680
Blobby now. 
Who's Mr. Blobby now? 

515
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Yes, of course, those viewers. 
Haven't got a clue what. 

516
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,440
You're talking about Mr. Blobby?
Come on, Al. 

517
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,680
How? 
Is this Mr. Blobby? 

518
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,040
Was a fun character. 
Exactly. 

519
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,480
In the. 
Show I'm sure everyone knows you

520
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,960
Mr. It's one of. 
Those where you got to say 

521
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,960
you've got to watch it, you got 
to see to believe. 

522
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,640
Yeah, for for international 
listeners, he was at the large 

523
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,400
character that had a similar 
colour scheme to the the the 

524
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,720
Mazda zidos actually. 
Yeah, that's very true, yes. 

525
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,640
Yeah, yeah, he was dressed in an
outfit. 

526
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,720
By the way, this you couldn't 
see this person and. 

527
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,360
And yeah, he didn't speak to 
Pure Carnage. 

528
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,240
Wasn't he? 
Blobby, blobby, blobby. 

529
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,720
And there was lots of gunge and 
slime and everything. 

530
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,320
It was just pure carnage, wasn't
it? 

531
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,720
But so funny to watch. 
Yeah, the. 

532
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Whole thing would have been 
absolutely bonkers and. 

533
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,720
I think, I think you need to put
a few short videos on Twitter 

534
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,160
and and and Facebook. 
Yes. 

535
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,440
So the viewers can sort of. 
Yes, you know. 

536
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,280
I'm not getting on the point, 
you know, so people can 

537
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,600
understand what what this 
episode is going to be about is 

538
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,680
that it all makes a lot of sense
because at the minute they're 

539
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,560
going to think, I have no idea 
what what is happening with this

540
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,600
podcast right now. 
Yes. 

541
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,880
So crink crinky bottom Team 
Mazda with Mr. Blovi around 

542
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,880
David Coulthard and Matt Neal. 
Yeah, makes sense. 

543
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,960
What a combination? 
It's like some like 90s child 

544
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,080
fever dream. 
It's basically what I used to 

545
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,240
draw on pieces of paper at home,
obviously, you know. 

546
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,080
I think it was you that was that
was creating these rumours. 

547
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,400
Yeah, I just. 
Made it all up, yeah. 

548
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,520
The other big missing entry from
1994 was the Ian Flux Peugeot, 

549
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,800
which was going to be run by 
Superpower and named Halfords 

550
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,800
Motorsport. 
Flux discussed this with us 

551
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,880
recently on Stories From Super 
Touring, so let's remind 

552
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,680
ourselves of it now. 
Halfords were so they they 

553
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,040
enjoyed the year before and had 
good coverage, and basically 

554
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,240
silk silkoline had paid for it. 
Silkoline had thought they'd had

555
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,000
enough and Halfords would only 
come up with half the budget 

556
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,000
themselves for 94 and it was 400
grand because John wanted to do 

557
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,920
it properly and we have 3 
Michelins done anyway. 

558
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,360
Halfords couldn't find a partner
to offset their so they were 

559
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,720
paired to put in 200, but they 
want somebody else to put in 200

560
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,240
and they couldn't find anybody 
who they stopped in the shop who

561
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,520
wanted to back up. 
Come up with that it it it was 

562
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,320
the factory car from 93 from the
French Championship. 

563
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,640
But it didn't happen. 
I've learned not to. 

564
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,120
I've learned not to worry about 
that shit in my life. 

565
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,920
Adam It would have been 
interesting to see how a French 

566
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,000
built 405 would have performed 
on these shows, wouldn't it? 

567
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,040
So just to clarify and following
on from our interview with the 

568
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,400
great Mick Linford, what was 
this actually going to be a 

569
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,760
French built 405 or was this? 
We just caught. 

570
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,240
Clashing the French beat Just 
because it's a French car, 

571
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,480
because we know that the French 
didn't build the cars for Mick, 

572
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,080
no. 
So, so it was a year old, but it

573
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,600
was a French car. 
Yeah. 

574
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,720
In that case I'm sure it would 
have done absolutely fine and 

575
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,200
I'm sure it'd probably be this 
is somewhere near the front. 

576
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,160
But yeah, as as things then 
progressed on as you'd naturally

577
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,800
think that's what happens when 
you race a French car in the UK.

578
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400
You're just going to buy it from
the the French people that are 

579
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,280
building it over there and 
producing a a winning car. 

580
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,600
But obviously that didn't happen
when he when he continued over 

581
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,160
to the four O 6. 
But I think it would have been 

582
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,440
good. 
I think, you know Fluxy was 

583
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,400
quick, wasn't he? 
He was, he was quick. 

584
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,480
The car was built well to win 
and I think it would have been 

585
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:07,920
good to see to be honest. 
Into 1995 and the major news 

586
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,200
this season surrounded the debut
of Williams into the BTCC. 

587
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,400
With the championship winning F1
team also came the rumours of a 

588
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,680
championship winning F1 driver 
wanting to join as well. 

589
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960
Alain Prost was heavily rumoured
to replace Will Hoy at the start

590
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,920
of 1995, with team boss Frank 
Williams eager to get the 

591
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,240
Frenchman into a cartoon. 
His problem however, was that 

592
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,600
Will Hoy and Alamenu were 
already contracted to drive for 

593
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,720
the team, whilst the drive for 
Prost never materialised. 

594
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,240
The rumours resurfaced around 
mid season and there was also 

595
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,240
talk of a third car for Prost in
that midway part of the season. 

596
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,080
Nothing is set in concrete. 
Alan is employed by Renault and 

597
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,960
I know he'd love to drive a 
touring car. 

598
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,600
There might be the odd straw in 
the wind, said team owner Sir 

599
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,960
Frank Williams at the time. 
Adam how do you think Prost 

600
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,640
would have adapted to the BTCC 
and also a front wheel drive 

601
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,320
touring car if he had joined the
the pack in that season? 

602
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,239
I think very similar to DCI 
think he'd have got roughed up, 

603
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,679
he'd have found it difficult, 
but he's super quick. 

604
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,440
So I think again testing they 
could do as much as they wanted 

605
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,520
to. 
So it would have been good to 

606
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,679
have seen him do that and bring 
himself up to speed because I 

607
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:28,560
think he would have been quick 
but over time. 

608
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:35,239
But it's such, you know, it's 
such a different kettle of fish 

609
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,960
going from open wheel single 
seaters like I did with Formula 

610
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,440
Three and Renault over in in 
France and then going into GT 

611
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,800
racing and then touring cars. 
It's completely different and 

612
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,480
you have to change it. 
You know, your driving style is,

613
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,880
yeah, change that completely. 
Your racecraft to a point is is 

614
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,600
changed as well. 
And like I said, you know, 

615
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,640
there's contacts, you know, it's
not Bangor Racing, but it's 

616
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,000
contacts. 
And if it's something you're not

617
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,520
used to, you have to sort of get
involved with it because 

618
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,160
otherwise you're just going to 
get bullied really. 

619
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,000
But I think and what I alluded 
to earlier on when I said that I

620
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,360
knew a little bit of inside 
information, I've got someone on

621
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:20,600
the inside at at Williams who 
basically said that you Prost 

622
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,280
never drove it. 
But the rumour could have come 

623
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,760
as a little bit of APR exercise 
and sort of get one up on Ford 

624
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:32,600
with Mansell doing around in 93.
So I reckon that might that was 

625
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,360
just a little bit potentially a 
little bit of APR exercise, just

626
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,000
sort of, yeah a bit of APR stunt
there which clearly worked 

627
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,840
because we're talking about it 
in 2020. 

628
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,480
So you know obviously you can 
imagine how big it was back 

629
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,400
then, you know the the Prost, 
Renault, it all, it all made 

630
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,960
sense, didn't it? 
You know, it all made sense. 

631
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,400
He was part of the Renault 
Williams French organization, 

632
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,680
yeah. 
I think you're right. 

633
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,400
I think he would have been a if 
he did race, I think he would 

634
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,080
have had a bit of a target on 
his back because the touring car

635
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,600
drivers wouldn't have wanted him
to come in and do well because 

636
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,600
it would show them up, you know?
Oh yeah, exactly. 

637
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:11,960
You've. 
Got an F1 world champion coming 

638
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,200
in. 
We'll show you pal. 

639
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Yeah, that, that's sort of 
that's, you know, you might just

640
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,080
imagine John Cleveland saying 
that Scottish voice, you know, 

641
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,760
you're coming here, mate, you're
going to get it, he said. 

642
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:28,240
Something similar that you know 
when Mansell made made his BTCC 

643
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,120
debut in 98. 
So obviously the 93 race was a 

644
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960
Toker shootout, so it wasn't a 
BTCC event. 

645
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:41,840
So when Mansell made his debut 
at Donington, I think JC roughed

646
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,920
him up a bit going down the 
Craners on the first warm up lap

647
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,600
of the day of the morning on the
race morning. 

648
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,480
And I think he they he sort of 
folded his wing mirror in with 

649
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,400
his wing mirror and and Nigel 
came down and was the hell yeah,

650
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,440
what the hell was that about? 
You know, in the warm up you 

651
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,120
could have had me off and all 
this and and and then I think JC

652
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:04,960
said that. 
He said. 

653
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:07,200
That's touring cars, mate. 
That's that. 

654
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,080
Welcome to touring cars. 
It's going to be like that for 

655
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,960
the rest of the day. 
So, so get used to it sort of 

656
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,560
thing, yeah. 
Almost like I folded your 

657
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:14,600
mirroring. 
Get over it. 

658
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,800
You went to the racing stars. 
That's going to be. 

659
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,280
You'll be happy to have a mirror
still on your car by the end of 

660
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,920
the first lap, yeah? 
And, and and then as he told us 

661
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,520
when he did, when he did his 
interview with us in series one,

662
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,760
you know, as as long as my ass 
points out, there was no way 

663
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,680
Mansell was going to win that 
race, you know. 

664
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,680
So you know that that was the 
that was the the thoughts that 

665
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,640
they didn't want these F1 boys 
coming in and showing them up, 

666
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,120
basically. 
Yeah. 

667
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:44,440
And. 
Great. 

668
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,200
Great for the sport though. 
I mean, you've got, you're an. 

669
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,480
Absolutely world. 
Champion. 

670
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,720
Well, Formula One, Champions. 
Coming into the sport or even 

671
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,200
being talked about, Yeah, it's 
huge. 

672
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,520
Did you show you how you know 
touring cars had got, you know, 

673
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:56,600
it was massive, wasn't it? 
Yeah, it. 

674
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Was he was what was he a four 
time world champion? 

675
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,800
It's just that would have been. 
Huge world champion 2 years 

676
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,640
before as well, Yeah, yeah. 
Still current. 

677
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,720
Very, very current in A. 
Williams, Renault, Alex, Do you 

678
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:11,440
think dropping Eva driver for 
Prost, do you think that'd have 

679
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,520
been harsh on on Hoyle menu, 
depending on who that was? 

680
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,440
Yeah and I think there was no 
doubt who it would have been 

681
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,320
either as the sadly for for 
Will. 

682
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,600
Yeah, Alan was being used by 
Williams as a as a bit of a test

683
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,400
driver on the side on the F1 
side. 

684
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:34,440
So Alan had had a few test runs 
in whatever FW model that the 

685
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,680
car was in 95. 
Yeah. 

686
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,840
So it was never going to be 
Alan, it was always going to be 

687
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,200
Will that would lose out wasn't 
it? 

688
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,360
Unless of course the third 
Laguna came along in the midway 

689
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,760
point of 1995. 
But yeah, it would have been 

690
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,200
harsh because obviously Alan 
finished second in the 

691
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,200
championship in 94 in a Renault 
Laguna that wasn't a Williams 

692
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,640
Laguna, but nevertheless it was 
you know still a still a Renault

693
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,280
car and he finished second so 
would have been incredibly harsh

694
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,440
to drop him and and Will was a 
recent champion in 91, you know 

695
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,920
only four years prior. 
So yeah, it would have been 

696
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,240
harsh on either driver and as 
much as I'd love to see him 

697
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:17,000
Prost, it would have been, it 
would have been very unfair to 

698
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,360
for either driver. 
And it would have been so late 

699
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,760
in the season that neither of 
them would have been able to 

700
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,720
find a competitive Dr. 
elsewhere, you know. 

701
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:29,400
So yeah, yeah, it would have 
been a harsh decision on, let's 

702
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,400
face it, it would have been Will
Hoy other. 

703
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,200
Talk of 1995 included an 
interesting tart with Ford and 

704
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,120
Valvoline, with NASCAR driver 
Mark Martin being pencilled in 

705
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,320
to race a third works Ford one 
day at the Donnington Park 

706
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,520
meeting in August. 
The rumour came about due to the

707
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,640
tie up between Ford and 
Valvoline with Martin's NASCAR 

708
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,760
entry, however the drive would 
never materialise. 

709
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Finally, Slim Borgood was due to
race the Mazda 323 for Team 

710
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,040
Magic, one of the most well 
known rumours of the era. 

711
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,480
Alex, do you want to tell us a 
bit more about that potential 

712
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,520
entry? 
Yeah, so it's like, like you 

713
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:12,200
just said, it was a rather well 
known rumour from in fact it 

714
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,320
wasn't a rumour. 
You know, the car was built as 

715
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,960
we know. 
We saw it race this year at 

716
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:23,120
Hatch but Mazda obviously made 
the debut in 92 with Patrick 

717
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,000
Watts and their their entries 
were always handled by Roger 

718
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,320
Dawson. 
It never really, I mean Patrick 

719
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,160
had some success in the the Z 
DOS in 93, didn't he, in the the

720
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,200
purple and what did Patrick call
it, the plum and custard castle 

721
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,640
plum and custard. 
So yeah, you got pole position 

722
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,720
at Snairton and you know got 
some good top five results. 

723
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:50,480
That was the most competitive 
Mazda in the BTCC but basically 

724
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,080
then Matt Neal had written off 
one of the Z doses if you 

725
00:40:54,080 --> 00:41:00,600
remember in 94 at at Silverstone
with these barrel roll coming 

726
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:06,520
out of cops and Dawson then used
all the salvageable parts of 

727
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:14,080
that to build another 323 rather
than a Z DOS which Matt raced at

728
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:20,120
the Tokyo the the the World Cup 
at at Donington in 94 but the 

729
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,680
results weren't great but Dawson
was determined to get Mazda to 

730
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,080
return to the series and this 
time decided to build another 

731
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,760
323. 
The intention was to run ex F1 

732
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,960
driver Slim Borgood in the car 
and it would be run as team 

733
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,400
magic because of sponsorship 
deals. 

734
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,920
The car entered and was on the 
entry list for 1995 but late in 

735
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,680
the day the sponsors pulled out 
of the deal and left the team 

736
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,200
with no budget so the car was 
never raced. 

737
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,800
They tried to look for different
drivers to bring funds to run 

738
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,760
the car. 
That never happened. 

739
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,880
They then tried to sell it. 
That never happened and the car 

740
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,320
was parked in it. 
There was never raced in period,

741
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,720
which is a real shame. 
Roger Dawson obviously was 

742
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:09,280
behind behind Dawson's 
engineering, was was adamant 

743
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,200
that the car in the right hands 
would have been a race winner 

744
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,240
and and said it was the finest 
ever car his his company ever 

745
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,640
developed despite never racing 
periods. 

746
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,120
So yes, a really interesting 
tale actually. 

747
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,680
And then one of missed 
opportunities. 

748
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480
And yeah, I for one would have 
loved to see this car racing 

749
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,160
period because it didn't look 
slow at Brands Hatch this year, 

750
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,720
did it? 
It was a bit of a monster, it 

751
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,960
didn't it. 
Lovely sound to it as well 

752
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,160
sounded. 
Beautiful as well. 

753
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,240
Unreal. 
Someone said that you know in 

754
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:42,840
the comments section the other 
day. 

755
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,680
Forgive and if I've got this 
wrong, I think his name was Jake

756
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,080
And then he said it was the He 
was so excited to see the car 

757
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,640
and the sound of it was just 
beautiful. 

758
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,200
It was one of his favorite 
highlights of of the weekend and

759
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,200
I'm with you Jake on that one. 
That was. 

760
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:58,960
It was wonderful seeing that car
run. 

761
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,040
I find it such a shame that all 
this money gets plowed into 

762
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:06,720
developing something. 
Yeah, but then for what reason 

763
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,840
at the end of it, You know, it's
such a shame because like, you 

764
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,280
know, he's alluded there. 
It's the, you know, the best car

765
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,440
he's ever built. 
Yeah, like that's something to 

766
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,120
say that, you know, to test it 
and realise the pace of it, but 

767
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,240
to never race it. 
It's just yeah. 

768
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,880
Such a shame. 
Oh, it's just a waste, isn't it?

769
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,680
Yeah. 
Yeah, it would have been really 

770
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,480
interesting to see how it would 
have gone well at. 

771
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,200
Least he's getting the use now, 
although it's only you know 

772
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,360
events like that, which is 
great. 

773
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,720
At least he's getting used, yes.
And it's out there for people to

774
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:40,600
see it. 
At least it was. 

775
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,240
I was so excited to see it 
because, as I said, I've never 

776
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,560
seen the car in person before. 
I'd heard about it. 

777
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,840
I've written about it, seen 
pictures of it, but never seen 

778
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,760
it in my in in, in the flesh. 
And yeah, it was really tough to

779
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,160
see it and get. 
Us now you know it exists. 

780
00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:03,160
Exactly, yeah. 1996 saw all the 
end to the frame and whilst 

781
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,200
Frank Beeler was confirmed 
relatively early on, his 

782
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,440
teammate was not so quickly 
sorted. 

783
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,800
The team wanted Auk driver to 
represent to Mark in the UK 

784
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,760
Championship and it was 
originally said to be between 

785
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Derek Borick, Julian Bailey and 
Tim Sutton. 

786
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,280
In the end the driver was given 
to John Bincliffe, with Sutton 

787
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,520
feeling particularly hurt by 
that decision. 

788
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,840
He told Daly Sports Car. 
I remember it as John Wickham. 

789
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,880
He was running the program, he 
was the team manager. 

790
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,360
So I called John and Long story 
short, I knew I had a chance. 

791
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,680
I knew that they wanted a 
British driver to go alongside 

792
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,440
Frank Peeler and there really 
weren't that many different 

793
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,160
drivers available that were good
enough. 

794
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,960
I'd had some decent results in 
the Toyota, some good results in

795
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,320
one raises in the BMW. 
So I knew I had a good chance. 

796
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,360
I went for this interview and 
did. 

797
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,480
I fought a pretty good job. 
I remember at the time that John

798
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,600
Bincliffe was there. 
I knew John from Fiestas because

799
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,440
he was from Harrogate nearby. 
John Wickham has said to me that

800
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,280
they are going to interview him,
but only because Audi wanted to 

801
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,280
see somebody from a junior 
formula. 

802
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,680
They're not really serious. 
So I drove back to Leeds and I 

803
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,320
thought I was going to get it 
and obviously I didn't and they 

804
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,280
gave it to John. 
John's a great guy, but that 

805
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:25,520
decision did bother me. 
Some interesting lines there 

806
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,400
from from Tim. 
Do you think, looking back guys,

807
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,920
do you think Audi made the right
decision and given the drive to 

808
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,840
Binkliff instead for their their
time at the BTCC? 

809
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,960
No. 
Well, John, John. 

810
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,960
Well, proof is in the pudding, 
wasn't it? 

811
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,520
Yeah. 
John didn't. 

812
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,000
John didn't set the world 
alight. 

813
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,560
I think he was. 
I think he was a bit out of his 

814
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,840
depth, personally looking at it.
I mean, what what was the 

815
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,480
category that he raced prior to 
going into the Audi? 

816
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,400
He won the fiestas so. 
You come straight out of Fiestas

817
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,200
straight into a works Audi 
program. 

818
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Yeah, head first against Frank 
Baylor in an Audi team. 

819
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,440
Fair play for giving John the 
the the ride it it it'd have 

820
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,160
been the happiest man alive. 
But I think in terms of getting 

821
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,640
results unless that. 
But you know is this a is this a

822
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,000
Red Bull scenario where they've 
got Max in doesn't matter who 

823
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,080
this teammate is. 
Max is #1. 

824
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,360
I think there is an element of 
the number one. 

825
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,520
Is it so? 
Did did Were they bothered about

826
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,000
the the second one Was he just a
case that to fill a seat in the 

827
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,400
world giving someone a chance? 
Was he was he some sort of 

828
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,560
marketing idea of British driver
Obviously selling you know Audis

829
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,520
in the uki get back. 
Tim was British, but 

830
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,800
established. 
Do you or or here's a theory, 

831
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,480
was it a ALDI is investing in 
bringing a British driver up 

832
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,400
through the ranks as well? 
Potentially. 

833
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,440
Possibly. 
I mean, I I know that sort of as

834
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,200
as sucked and said there that 
Audi wanted a British driver. 

835
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,720
And yeah, the idea of they there
was they had to ask. 

836
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,800
They had to invite somebody to 
interview from the lower 

837
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,800
formula. 
So there is a possibility that 

838
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,680
that was a part of it. 
But I think Adam has possibly 

839
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,360
hit the nail on the head is that
Frank was #1. 

840
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,520
There was no challenge in that 
and they just needed another 

841
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,720
driver. 
Would would Warwick? 

842
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,880
Would Bailey would have sucked 
in. 

843
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,360
Would they have challenged be a 
little bit too much? 

844
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:18,880
I can imagine sucked in would 
have done. 

845
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,960
I can imagine Bailey would have 
done Warwick not so sure as 

846
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,920
much. 
I like Derek, but I'm not sure 

847
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,480
he would have been at the same 
level as Beeler. 

848
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,000
But I can imagine sucked in 
would have been sucked in as a 

849
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,600
driver with considerable talent.
And yeah, I think, I think Audi 

850
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,760
probably did make a mistake. 
Bincliff's second year wasn't so

851
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,240
bad. 
He won two races. 

852
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,400
He got in front of, he got in 
front of Beeler a couple of 

853
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,840
times. 
But yeah, John's first year was 

854
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,280
considering what his teammate 
did was not, was not brilliant. 

855
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,400
But again, I'm not sure what to 
expect. 

856
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,120
But then I suppose you could say
that about Plato. 

857
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,960
Plato came in from spiders and 
he got pole position for the 

858
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,040
first three races of his BCC 
career in a in a similarly 

859
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,320
dominant car. 
So, you know, as much as 

860
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,920
somebody might say Bincliff was 
thrown in at the deep end, so 

861
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,080
was Plato. 
And look what he did. 

862
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,400
Didn't DT badly, did he? 
No. 

863
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,440
So you know, I I I kind of I I 
kind of see both sides to that 

864
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,920
and what? 
He said about how he made a 

865
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,080
mistake there, but did they? 
If they may have only just like 

866
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,920
we've said they may have. 
But he's got his Frankie's 

867
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,600
number one. 
All our efforts are going into 

868
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,040
his car. 
His car's going to be different 

869
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,080
to the number two car anyway and
that's that's all we're doing. 

870
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,160
So it might have been absolutely
tactical and they knew exactly 

871
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,600
what they were doing, but then. 
We wouldn't have got the iconic 

872
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,360
line, would we? 
We wouldn't have had that moment

873
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,480
at Silverstone. 
We wouldn't have the memory and 

874
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:50,840
we. 
Might not talk too much. 

875
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,640
About the second car, I mean, 
David Leslie would have been a 

876
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,440
bit more impressed, I suspect, 
but I. 

877
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Know exactly what line you're on
about. 

878
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,400
They've done HEAD. 
Off goes fixless. 

879
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:01,560
Head Leslie. 
Wow. 

880
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,120
And they are both out of the 
race. 

881
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:07,760
Now. 
We're in Leslie's car. 

882
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:08,800
Let's have a look at. 
Here he is. 

883
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,240
He's turning in now into 
Beckett's Bang. 

884
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:12,680
There's the turn. 
That's where he's here. 

885
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,080
Now. 
They're both heading down to the

886
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,840
neck in the funnel, which is the
island Chicane Bincliff on the 

887
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,640
right. 
Leslie's over the ski jump. 

888
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:25,160
That's it. 
This. 

889
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,880
Is David. 
Bincliff. 

890
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,120
'S done it again and the cars. 
And don't forget, of course, 

891
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,800
you've got the Bincliffe 
billiards that Charlie Cox 

892
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,680
coins, which was, yeah, another.
Great one. 

893
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,040
They did have a tendency to come
together, especially in 97 

894
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,360
Bincliffe and Beeler. 
So yeah, the. 

895
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,080
Uncertainty surrounding the Ford
programme was another major 

896
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,000
story at the start of 1996. 
Long time Formula Three Team W 

897
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,080
Surrey Racing ended up running 
the Ford programme with Reynard 

898
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,400
building a more technically 
advanced machine. 

899
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,080
Adam Do you think it was a 
surprise that a team with no 

900
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:08,360
experience in touring car racing
previously won the contract for 

901
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,480
Ford from Ralston Team Dynamics,
who were also interested in 

902
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,560
running it? 
Yes, I don't. 

903
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,880
You can't not be really. 
But you know, the more I think 

904
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,400
about this question and the 
possibility you know the 

905
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,600
possible answers of this, it's 
like you just don't know what 

906
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:26,520
happened. 
You don't know what goes on 

907
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,080
behind closed doors there. 
You don't know what. 

908
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,800
You don't know what 
conversations I had. 

909
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,600
You don't know what you know the
financials that had been 

910
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,040
discussed around the is it was 
it a money thing where we're 

911
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,560
sorry you could do it. 
You know they doing it for for 

912
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,760
less money were they the most 
expensive so they thought they 

913
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,560
were going to do the best job. 
Don't know. 

914
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,720
You don't know. 
I think it was AI think it was 

915
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,320
great for for WSR because he got
them firmly on the map and and 

916
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,080
up and running and look how 
successful they've been in the 

917
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:04,000
touring cars since that time. 
But yeah, when you've got some 

918
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,360
other established teams that 
could have potentially have have

919
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,440
hit the ground running with it, 
you know they have took a punt 

920
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,480
with with them. 
And yeah, it was a bit of a 

921
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,560
surprise completely. 
The other team that were 

922
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,560
interested in running the Ford 
contract and this is not that 

923
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,760
well known was Pacific Grand 
Prix. 

924
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:31,280
Yeah yeah yeah. 
So obviously they had left 

925
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,600
Formula One at the end of 1995 
and and we're looking for a 

926
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,680
program to run and then and they
applied to to to run the the 

927
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,160
Ford contract the they tended 
and they weren't successful but 

928
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,280
yeah Pacific Grand Prix were 
certainly in the running. 

929
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,320
But there was a pre-existing 
relationship between Pacific and

930
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,120
Maynard, wasn't there? 
But the whole program at that 

931
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,000
point was a complete mess. 
I think they made a dog's dinner

932
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,880
out of it, of producing the 
engine in one place, the chassis

933
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,800
somewhere else, someone else 
running it. 

934
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,040
Obviously the original program 
that Ralph ran works 

935
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:07,760
fantastically because it was all
in house. 

936
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,200
I mean, the amount of work they 
had to do just to get that to a 

937
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,120
competitive proposition was 
immense. 

938
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,400
But Reynard were, let's not 
forget the biggest race car 

939
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,680
developer builder I know. 
These days we talk about the 

940
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,240
likes of Delara. 
Well Reynard are even bigger 

941
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:28,200
than Delara are now. 
Back then they ran lots of cars 

942
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,840
in in the USA, in the Carton 
IndyCar Championships. 

943
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,120
Obviously the history in Formula
Ford was huge. 

944
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,320
They worked with a lot of 
Formula One teams, including 

945
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,800
Pacific. 
I think they did some stuff with

946
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,760
Benetton and a few other teams 
as well. 

947
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,880
Formula 3000, they were just 
everywhere. 

948
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,920
And I think it's incredible how 
all of these Formula One teams 

949
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,400
just got brought in to run Sling
cars in Britain for wonderful, 

950
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,280
better phrase in the 90s. 
Yeah. 

951
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,600
The Ford programme was a mess. 
It was like, like Dan said that 

952
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,560
you had Raynard doing one thing,
you had Chubel doing one thing, 

953
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,800
you had someone else doing 
another thing and none of them 

954
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,240
were working together. 
And the the result was a car 

955
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:12,720
that was nowhere near the level 
of the front running cars. 

956
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,280
And yeah, it took a few years as
we know, for for that Ford 

957
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,200
programme to recover from that. 
And you know, they spent three 

958
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,520
years with W Surrey who weren't 
actually designing or building 

959
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:26,760
the cars, they were just running
them. 

960
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,720
They were given the cars with 
very little success. 

961
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:34,520
And it wasn't until Pro Drive 
took over and it all became 

962
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,680
under one roof again that that 
the success started to come 

963
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:38,480
again. 
Andy. 

964
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,640
Rouse refused to go away 
however. 

965
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,360
Rumours were that the four time 
champion was still likely to run

966
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,840
a couple of Fords instead with 
backing from his perennial 

967
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,920
sponsor ICS with Top Gear 
presenter Tiff Nadel, who had 

968
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,040
apparently put together a tidy 
financial package for the 

969
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,040
season, the Rouse Fords were 
rumoured to be run with a 4 

970
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,640
cylinder engine rather than the 
V6 used by Ford since the 1993 

971
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,600
season. 
In the end, Rouse would end up 

972
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,800
running 2 Nissan Premieres 
instead. 

973
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,400
Alex, do you think it would have
been interesting to see how the 

974
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,840
Rouse Bond deos would have fared
compared to the 1996 works cars?

975
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:21,880
Especially considering how for 
the works cars, 96 is a pretty 

976
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,960
poor year, wasn't it? 
Yeah, as I just said, 96 was a 

977
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:32,080
pretty barren year for Ford. 
If the car did run, it wasn't 

978
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,200
very reliable, but if it did 
keep running it was. 

979
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:39,000
It wasn't very fast and I really
felt for Radisich and Robertson 

980
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,880
that season. 
But it would have been 

981
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,640
interesting to see what the 
four-cylinder, that 4 cylinder 

982
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:50,720
engine would have been like 
because for 95 and into 96 and 

983
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:54,440
going forwards, really the 
biggest complaint about that V6 

984
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,520
lump was that it was so heavy. 
Yeah, you imagine. 

985
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:02,400
Imagine the extra pressure and 
the the hassle that gives you 

986
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,240
front tyres, yeah? 
Well, I think, I think it was 

987
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,080
during the halfway point of the 
95 season that they've realized 

988
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,160
why the car was chewing its 
front tyres up. 

989
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,120
It's because the the engine was 
so heavy and it was just eating 

990
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,480
the the the fronts and and there
was, so they would qualify well 

991
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,920
and they would start the race 
well and then they would just 

992
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:24,000
fall. 
You can control. 

993
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,240
The temperatures in qualifinals,
you've got a 20 lap raise, yeah.

994
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,880
You've got no chance, yeah. 
And and that went on for 

995
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,400
throughout the rest of the 
Mondeo's life in the BTCC 

996
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,880
actually. 
Because you know, I know that 

997
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,160
when I spoke to to Craig Beard 
for a piece, I said before he, 

998
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,880
he said that one of the, you 
know, lots of people ask him why

999
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:45,440
was the Mondeo so good in the 
wet. 

1000
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,680
And it was because the the V6 
was so heavy. 

1001
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,480
It was pushing down on the front
and it was a front wheel drive 

1002
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,880
car and it was giving you more 
grip in the wet weather. 

1003
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,480
It was giving you giving. 
You temperature quicker. 

1004
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,280
Yeah. 
So that's why that for Mondeo 

1005
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,840
was always so good in the wet. 
It's because the V6 engine was 

1006
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:03,520
so heavy. 
So it would have been really 

1007
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,680
interesting to see what the 
Roush cars would have ended up 

1008
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,560
like with with four-cylinder 
units and and with a Rouse 

1009
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,760
designed car. 
It would have really been 

1010
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,760
interesting to see and it would 
have been good to see Tiff as 

1011
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,160
well. 
I would like to have seen Tiff 

1012
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,520
in a good car for a full season.
He's a good racer, Tiff, and he 

1013
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,240
he never really got the luck of 
good cars and when he did get a 

1014
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:28,840
good car, he wasn't in it for 
very long. 

1015
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,280
Yeah, to get to get used to it, 
you know. 

1016
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,320
So yeah, it would. 
It would have been interesting 

1017
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,120
to see what Tiff would have done
in a in a rouse Mondeo. 

1018
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,760
Into 1998 and Andy Oz was at it 
again, this time designing and 

1019
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,600
building a Toyota Corolla to run
independently for the season. 

1020
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,600
Andy had thought of a plan to 
build and develop a car that 

1021
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,120
independents could buy as a 
reasonably priced off the shelf 

1022
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:02,480
car to run in the BTCC instead 
of purchasing expensive X works 

1023
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:07,160
cars from the previous season. 
The programme soon hit problems 

1024
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,280
however, as Toyota GB decided to
cancel the planned production of

1025
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,800
the car in the UK, meaning that 
homologation of the car would 

1026
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,320
have to be through Toyota's 
Japanese arm as FIA rules stated

1027
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,840
that the homologation had to be 
submitted by the country in 

1028
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:28,080
which the road car is produced. 
Sadly for Rouse, the Japanese 

1029
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,320
arm were not supportive of the 
programme and refused to back 

1030
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,560
the homologation because the 
Corolla was already being used 

1031
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,280
in the WRC with the Toyota Works
programme. 

1032
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,240
After a few months of 
discussions, Toyota Japan 

1033
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,760
finally agreed to homologate the
chassis, meaning the car could 

1034
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:49,440
be raced in the BTCC. 
Adam, can you understand why 

1035
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,640
Toyota were maybe not fully keen
to support the project? 

1036
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,080
Yes. 
I think you can just imagine 

1037
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,400
picking up the phone to the 
Japanese arm of it kindly said 

1038
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,000
right this is what I need. 
And a lot what you're talking 

1039
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,960
about you know because they've 
had, you think they've had no no

1040
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,120
involvement in this program 
whatsoever. 

1041
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,960
They've got, they've had they've
put no budget into it. 

1042
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,240
They've had no direct 
involvement with developing it. 

1043
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,120
There's there's been no PR 
advertising campaigns around the

1044
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,080
BTCC or nothing and they're just
about I need this. 

1045
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,600
Well, I get a lot what are you 
talking about? 

1046
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,600
You know, so he's sort of been 
landed in it really by the UK 

1047
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,280
pulling, pulling the car, you 
know, out of the UK market And 

1048
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,760
then yeah, he's a bit scuppered,
wasn't he? 

1049
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,400
Really. 
So yeah, just difficult 

1050
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,160
situation to be. 
Yeah, a Toyota had withdrawn 

1051
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:42,360
from the BTCC at the end of 95 
to concentrate on rallying, and 

1052
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,720
they were rallying the Corolla. 
So they wouldn't really need to 

1053
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,000
promote the Corolla in the 
touring car world as well 

1054
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,480
because they were already doing 
it in the WRC doing. 

1055
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,680
Pretty well as well, exactly. 
Yeah, doing it well, you know, 

1056
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,200
they had, they had Diddy R 
Didier Oriole and Carlos Sainz 

1057
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,640
fighting for the title, fighting
for the WRC title. 

1058
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,720
You know, that was obviously 
going to take their their, their

1059
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:14,160
attention and having as much as 
I love Patrick Watts, Patrick 

1060
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,560
Watts fighting for the 
Independence Cup in the 1998 

1061
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,600
BTCC is no comparison. 
Really. 

1062
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,760
Yeah. 
Yeah yeah. 

1063
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,520
So I can, I can totally get why 
and and again, as we said 

1064
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,880
earlier with the the talk of the
the 1991 entries, if the car's a

1065
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,680
dog, it doesn't look good on 
Toyota, does it? 

1066
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:36,800
Definitely. 
No, not not when you'd like. 

1067
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,360
You said what they're doing in 
in World Rally and you've got 

1068
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,200
the likes of, you know, two of 
the, you know, to say this to 

1069
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,320
the greatest drivers. 
There was tons of greatest 

1070
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,600
drivers, but you've got Carlos, 
Sainz and Didier or it didn't 

1071
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:49,080
really get much better than that
at the time. 

1072
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:49,560
No, you. 
Could. 

1073
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:54,480
No, no, not at all. 
No, it's yeah, it could undo all

1074
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,240
that good work because you could
see those those cars doing well 

1075
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,120
on the rally stage and then go 
to a BTCC event and there's 

1076
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:01,520
Patrick Watts at the back of the
grid. 

1077
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:03,080
I see. 
And that's what I spoke about 

1078
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:04,520
earlier on. 
You've just got that, you know a

1079
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,200
thing. 
If it's not broke, don't fix it.

1080
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,000
You've got that all you've all 
you're going to do is risk 

1081
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,240
damaging your the brand's 
reputation. 

1082
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,880
Absolutely. 
We knew all too well why that 

1083
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,800
rally car was going as quickly 
as it did. 

1084
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,760
Yeah. 
All I remember of the Corolla is

1085
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:23,640
seeing Carlos Sainz try and 
destroy his right in front of me

1086
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,480
at Margin Park which was the 
end. 

1087
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,640
Which is literally 5 minutes 
from my house because obviously 

1088
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:33,000
he was on course to win that 
title, was neat and then broke 

1089
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:37,280
down 500 meters from the from 
the finish and then proceeded to

1090
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,160
kick the living daylights out of
the car. 

1091
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,640
If it if it was broken before, 
it was definitely broken after 

1092
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,720
he was done with it, wasn't it? 
So yeah, that's that's the one 

1093
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,920
thing I think about when I think
of Corolla's it's not Patrick 

1094
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:56,240
Watts, it's it's Carlos Sainz 
doing Street Fighter Two special

1095
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,200
moves on it, you know, now. 
The car could race thanks to 

1096
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,640
homologation. 
Rounds prepared former BTCC 

1097
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,680
driver Patrick Watts to race the
car. 

1098
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,520
But for meeting after meeting, 
the debut would be put back. 

1099
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,600
First, the lack of testing and 
development and then a lack of 

1100
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,280
funds would end up preventing 
the car from making its BTCC 

1101
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,520
debut. 
Patrick told us about the car on

1102
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,720
stories from Super Touring. 
So let's remind ourselves about 

1103
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,240
what he said. 
Well, I I. 

1104
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,880
Know it's all about money. 
I mean, Andy and Pete Hall were 

1105
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,320
trying to get money for it. 
I think he went ahead and bought

1106
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,080
that, built that car. 
To. 

1107
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,000
Basically get it competitive, 
present it to Toyota and say, 

1108
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,680
look Toyota give us some money, 
but they didn't. 

1109
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,680
The only way I was going to race
it is if I was going to come up 

1110
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,440
with money and like I I couldn't
come up with money. 

1111
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,240
He was trying to find money, but
in the end it it never happened.

1112
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,040
Yeah, I tested it. 
It was it was great. 

1113
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:06,160
I mean I've got a lot of respect
for for Andy, you know, he he's 

1114
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,160
one of these legends like 
Longman, you know who a racer, A

1115
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,440
racer, engineer, you know? 
Cut out all. 

1116
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,440
The bullshit in between the 
driver and the engineer. 

1117
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,480
Just put the engineer in the 
car. 

1118
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,000
You're going to achieve big 
things, which is done and it was

1119
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,320
a pleasure to or privilege to, 
you know, be asked by him. 

1120
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,120
Really ugly. 
It was the one. 

1121
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:34,960
It was the one with the little 
Pearl slips at the front. 

1122
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:42,960
You know it's still the car you 
wouldn't buy for the road, but 

1123
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:44,320
no, it. 
I mean, I. 

1124
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,440
Only did a bit of testing that, 
snetter them with it, spell it, 

1125
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:52,040
spell it through Corum, but 
yeah, it seemed to do everything

1126
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:56,000
nicely. 
But again, the difference 

1127
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,000
between a car at the back of the
touring car grid and a car at 

1128
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,560
the front is is measured in 
tenths of second on that day. 

1129
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,400
You know, I don't know what lap 
times we're doing there around 

1130
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,040
there. 
I'm sure they were competitive. 

1131
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,760
I think we're all quite excited 
about it, but we don't know 

1132
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,720
whether that was a quick day or 
a slow day, what what other 

1133
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:19,760
people would have done that day,
a final. 

1134
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,840
Attempt to run the car at the 
end of the season was made with 

1135
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,720
Jamie Spence driving, but again 
the funding fell through and the

1136
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:31,040
whole project was abandoned. 
Do you think it was a shame that

1137
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,440
the Toyota would never see the 
race track? 

1138
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,120
I mean, yeah, it would have been
interesting to see what it would

1139
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:42,720
have done. 
Do I think it would have done 

1140
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,280
anything spectacular? 
No, I don't think it would have 

1141
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:51,880
done it. 
It seemed like a budget 

1142
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,640
operation is possibly the wrong 
phrase. 

1143
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,760
But it did seem like compared to
the teams that were running at 

1144
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:05,080
the front of the BTCC in 98, you
know, your TWRS, your, your Pro 

1145
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:10,640
drives, your Williams, it it 
wasn't going to be ruffling 

1146
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:12,040
their feathers, let's put it 
that way. 

1147
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:18,600
So it's not a huge shame, but it
would have been nice to see, 

1148
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,600
definitely. 
And it would have meant that 

1149
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:21,840
Patrick Watts stayed on the 
grid. 

1150
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:23,840
So that's an extra bonus, I 
guess. 

1151
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:27,600
Yeah, definitely. 
I think it's a real shame how 

1152
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:33,000
Rouse ended his BTCC career, not
just as a driver, but as a 

1153
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,480
A-Team entry and a developer. 
Obviously he was. 

1154
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:39,640
They were critical in developing
the regulations to start the 

1155
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,880
Super Touring era. 
They had the good success with 

1156
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:46,480
Toyotas, obviously them the 
Fords, that semi works team 

1157
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,200
thing for Nissan, That's another
time. 

1158
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,440
You can argue that Rouse got 
hard done by by the fact they 

1159
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,720
did a lot of work on those 
premieres initially to prove it 

1160
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,400
in the UK and then they turn up 
a few years later without them. 

1161
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,840
It's a shame that Toyota, as you
say, didn't come back, but 

1162
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,480
really I just feel really bad 
for Rouse, who was desperate to 

1163
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,440
show again why he could be up 
there with the the rest of these

1164
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,920
big brands, these big Formula 
One teams and all the rest of 

1165
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,720
it, developing these cars and 
didn't get the chance. 

1166
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,880
Would never see either of them 
in the British Joint Car 

1167
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,640
Championship again. 
And it's a bit of a poor end to 

1168
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,640
his involvement with the 
Championship, seeing how much he

1169
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,440
gave to it for 30 odd years or 
more. 

1170
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:25,640
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

1171
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,040
That's you're totally right 
there, Dan. 

1172
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,960
It's yeah, Andy. 
Ross's last official interest in

1173
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:39,040
the BTCC was, like you say, a 
pair of 95 Nissans from from 

1174
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,400
Germany. 
That that didn't go very well, 

1175
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:48,160
that struggled in in the BTC in 
96 and yeah, Roche deserved to 

1176
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,600
go out on a on a higher level 
than that. 

1177
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,880
Another manufacturer was 
originally entered for the 1998 

1178
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,200
season. 
The Italian Alfa Romeo squad 

1179
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:03,400
intended to return to the series
with a pair of AR15 Sixes 

1180
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:07,200
piloted by Nicola Larini and 
Fabrizio Giovinardi. 

1181
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,960
They even appeared on the 
official entry list, numbered 56

1182
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:16,880
and 57 respectively. 
The original idea was for the 

1183
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,000
team to run a small programme 
towards the end of the season 

1184
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,640
before a full tilt on the 1999 
championship. 

1185
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,040
However, after the European 
Championship shuffled their 

1186
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:30,520
calendar, Alfa Romeo could no 
longer make their debut at 

1187
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:35,080
Fruxton in August as intended. 
Sadly, the team never made it to

1188
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:39,680
the grid in 1998. 
Adam, do you think it would have

1189
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,120
been really something to see 
that Alfa bring those beautiful 

1190
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,480
156 cars to the British series? 
Absolutely. 

1191
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:51,960
I mean who doesn't enjoy seeing 
2 beautifully designed, you 

1192
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:56,200
know, lovely red Alfa Romeo's on
on any grid really. 

1193
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,760
I think it was great for us to 
have them in the championship 

1194
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,080
that we've that we've seen them 
before. 

1195
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,560
And then it doesn't get much 
Italian than two red Alfa 

1196
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:08,200
Romeo's two Italian drivers, you
know, all the staff Italian and 

1197
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,160
you know it's just a great side 
to say and for them to be 

1198
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,560
involved and to have them, you 
know part of the championship. 

1199
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,040
So yeah, it was, it was 
disappointing because you got 

1200
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,240
two again, very well established
drivers, well established team. 

1201
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,600
So yeah, it would have been a 
good one to have them back in 

1202
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,960
the, you know in the in the 
championship. 

1203
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,160
I'd have. 
I'd have enjoyed it now. 

1204
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,520
We all remember Nigel Mansell's 
wonderful BTCC debut at 

1205
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,160
Donington Park in 1998 with the 
Ford. 

1206
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,440
Well, after seeing Mansell's 
first meeting at Donington, Alan

1207
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,720
Jones and Jodi Schechter put 
their hands up to take on 

1208
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,480
Mansell at the season finale at 
Silverstone. 

1209
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:50,920
Alan Gow was keen on the idea 
and a Renault Laguna for Jones 

1210
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,040
and a Nissan premier for 
Schechter were mooted, but the 

1211
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:59,400
idea ultimately came to nothing.
Alex, three world champions on 

1212
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:01,120
the crid would have been 
something to see. 

1213
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:02,720
How do you think they'd have got
on? 

1214
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:07,240
It's tricky. 
It would have been great to see,

1215
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:13,440
as you say, that season finale 
Mansell almost. 

1216
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:18,319
It felt like Mansell was ignored
largely at that finale because 

1217
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:22,600
everyone was focusing on the the
Rydell versus Reed championship 

1218
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:27,439
battle and Mansell really didn't
do much that weekend. 

1219
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,279
You know he was fighting around 
around about 10th, 11th, 12th 

1220
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:39,240
and he was, yeah, it was almost 
forgotten he did the second 

1221
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:41,920
round. 
There were there's always a bit 

1222
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:43,439
of resentment that might and I 
don't. 

1223
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,399
I'm not sure Mansell 100% wanted
to be there for that final 

1224
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:50,240
weekend either because because 
he sort of had such a good run 

1225
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,960
at Donnington and he really, 
really showed what a brilliant 

1226
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:59,359
driver he is at Donnington. 
And then we almost saw the worst

1227
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:02,920
of Mansell at Brands Hatch in 
the second meeting of the three 

1228
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:07,080
he did. 
And then there was sort of 

1229
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:12,080
arguments about Nigel wasn't 
happy that certain radio 

1230
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:17,000
transmissions were put out onto 
the onto the TV and then refused

1231
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,200
to wear a microphone and refused
to have an in car camera. 

1232
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:25,279
And so Nigel really wasn't the 
star of the show at Silverstone 

1233
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:26,960
for the finale. 
So it would have been 

1234
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,560
interesting, yeah, featuring 
would have. 

1235
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,240
He would have featured more if 
Jones and Schechter had come 

1236
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,240
along in their and then yeah, 
because it would have been a 

1237
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,000
battle. 
Of the F1 drivers, wouldn't it? 

1238
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,319
As opposed to unless Nigel was 
going to put himself at the 

1239
01:09:39,319 --> 01:09:42,319
front? 
Yeah, amongst the the the title 

1240
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:45,399
finale, yes. 
Between the two drivers that 

1241
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,720
were that were going for the 
championship, it was never going

1242
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,160
to be the highlight of that 
weekend, no. 

1243
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,399
And and let's face it he didn't 
have the car to do that. 

1244
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:54,760
You know he did well at 
Donnington because the Ford did 

1245
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,120
well in the wet and they allowed
him to show his. 

1246
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,560
Yeah, but that Ford was 
uncompetitive in 98. 

1247
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,680
There's no two ways about it. 
And and Mansell struggled. 

1248
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,120
I don't know how Schechter would
have done, quite honestly I have

1249
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,200
no idea. 
But Alan Jones race for Williams

1250
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:14,360
at the the 1997 Bathurst meeting
qualified in the top ten in the 

1251
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:20,040
Laguna and was only a couple of 
seconds off menus time, which is

1252
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:24,000
quite impressive for a man of of
Jones's age. 

1253
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:25,840
Plus around a circuit of that 
length. 

1254
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,120
But and also it depends on how 
much testing were they going to 

1255
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:29,600
get beforehand if that was the 
mistake. 

1256
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:31,600
Thing you know, Yeah, again, 
this was probably. 

1257
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:35,320
Just a rumour just to, you know 
again just to pay our exercise 

1258
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,320
potentially. 
How how serious was it? 

1259
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,480
I don't know. 
But that, you know, you would 

1260
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:44,640
have wanted like a solid week's 
worth of testing to go into that

1261
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,720
if you was Alan Jones or Jody 
Schechter to to, you know, 

1262
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,320
they're winners, aren't they? 
They're not going to go there 

1263
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:53,240
just to make up the numbers. 
They're going to want to get 

1264
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:54,920
amongst each somewhere near the 
front. 

1265
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:56,960
So. 
But you know, with the 

1266
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,600
programmes that Renault of 
Nissan already had, were they 

1267
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,960
going to have time to fit in, 
you know, a week or two testing 

1268
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:04,760
with either driver, Right. 
Well. 

1269
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,120
Renault already had a third car 
running for Rushdad for winning 

1270
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,520
the Auto Sport Cup for 
Independence that year, so that 

1271
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,600
would have been a fourth works 
Leguma for for for Renault. 

1272
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,000
Which did they even have? 
Did they even have a fourth 

1273
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,160
card? 
I don't know. 

1274
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:21,200
And not that's probably. 
Why they did it was probably the

1275
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,080
second spare car because I 
thought, we haven't wrote it off

1276
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,200
yet, so we'll use it at the last
round, yeah. 

1277
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:31,080
I know Schechter was, he was 
ready, but I think from what I 

1278
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,360
remember he felt it wasn't, it 
wasn't a serious, serious 

1279
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,600
proposition. 
But he sort of said, if I 

1280
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:39,720
remember rightly, he said he set
a deadline. 

1281
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,440
He said, look, I want to know if
this is happening. 

1282
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:46,320
I want to know by this time and 
that time passed and nothing 

1283
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,920
happened. 
So yeah, it's it would have been

1284
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:51,560
good to see. 
I don't know how either of them 

1285
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:53,720
would have got on to be quite 
honest with you. 

1286
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:56,760
If if we're brutally honest, 
they probably both would have 

1287
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,680
struggled. 
But yeah, it would have been 

1288
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,040
really great to see. 
To come in as a one off race 

1289
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:04,160
you're going to, they're going 
to naturally going to struggle. 

1290
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,720
You're up against established 
drivers in established cars that

1291
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,840
know the circuits very well. 
So for them to just to come into

1292
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:14,560
it as a one off, like I said, 
unless you one thing is going to

1293
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:16,840
do like a week or two is testing
to get yourself up to speed. 

1294
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,480
Another thing is getting amongst
it, but also I think there's a 

1295
01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:21,840
bigger PR exercise with Mansell 
as well, yes. 

1296
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:25,000
That's the British. 
PR exercise, British fans and 

1297
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,600
everything. 
And the Brand Forge, you know, 

1298
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:29,440
that was just, you know, the 
cold. 

1299
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:31,520
Land a lot silly. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1300
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,440
Yeah, absolutely. 
And I was one of them. 

1301
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,840
Yeah, I'm aware that. 
I know Adam's a big Mansell fan 

1302
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:39,680
and I'm aware. 
I know, that's why you're. 

1303
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:41,320
Choosing your words carefully, 
aren't you, Alex? 

1304
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:46,040
Exactly, yeah. 
People are aware of my thoughts 

1305
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,480
on Mansell you. 
Listen, you need you need to, 

1306
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:51,120
you need to stop all this 
against my knowledge, right? 

1307
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:56,320
I've had the pleasure of meeting
the man twice and honestly like 

1308
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,960
I said before I think if I'd of 
met him in the height of his 

1309
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:03,640
fame like 92 and and all the 
stories you hear how difficult 

1310
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,040
he was and all this and I'm sure
he probably would have been true

1311
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:07,880
and I probably would have been 
devastated to meet him at that 

1312
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:09,880
point. 
But to meet him in a retired 

1313
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:13,440
capacity that he's in and the 
work he was doing for like just 

1314
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,640
so much work for charity and to 
see me in a in a relaxed 

1315
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:20,320
environment and a charity 
karting event of just select 

1316
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:24,160
people that he had there was 
just yeah I'll I'll remember 

1317
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:26,120
it's the day I die. 
So it's just one of the things. 

1318
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,680
But he was, for me growing up, 
single seat as he was who I 

1319
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,240
aspired to be and he was my 
motivation to get me through 

1320
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,600
some really difficult times when
I went out to France on my own. 

1321
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,560
And yeah, just my his vision, 
this is. 

1322
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:41,200
Where my hypocrisy is, because 
I've met him and I did lovely. 

1323
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:46,080
He was lovely here. 
We go look, so you are a Red 5 

1324
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,680
fan now Come on, so. 
But no, no, no thoughts that 

1325
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:52,680
yeah, no matter all my thoughts 
of Mansell. 

1326
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,720
What you is undeniable is that 
man pulled the British crowd 

1327
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:58,840
like nobody else. 
Exactly. 

1328
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,760
Slice him as much as you like in
terms well, but look at look at 

1329
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,000
Schumacher. 
Everyone hated Schumacher. 

1330
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,800
Yeah, beat their. 
Michael through his dominant 

1331
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,360
days, but the man was a 
dominant. 

1332
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:11,600
He was just a winner. 
Look at look. 

1333
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:14,040
At the crowd at the Toga 
shootout in 93. 

1334
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:19,040
The 78,000 people in the middle 
of November, cold November day, 

1335
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:21,840
just turning out because of 
course, he hadn't raced in 

1336
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:23,640
Britain that year because he was
out in the States. 

1337
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:26,800
Yeah, he could pull a crowd like
no other. 

1338
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:33,000
So Jeff Mansell was a by far 
bigger draw to Ford than than 

1339
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,280
Jones would have been. 
Or Schechter, Yeah. 

1340
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:43,320
With Anthony Reed moving to Ford
for the 1999 season, that 

1341
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,800
created a colossal battle for 
the Nissan he had vacated. 

1342
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,840
Matt Neal was heavily linked 
with the drive, especially after

1343
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:53,560
impressing at Bathurst and a 
works Nissan at night at the end

1344
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,880
of 1998. 
Eventually his drive went to 

1345
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,320
Laurent Aiello, but Team 
Dynamics had a contingency in 

1346
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,760
place. 
Paul Morris was tasked with 

1347
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,160
replacing Neil at Dynamics. 
Had he left to take the second 

1348
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:10,720
Nissan seat, Adam, that would 
have probably been a price seat 

1349
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,120
for a lot of drivers had it 
become available, wouldn't it? 

1350
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:20,800
Part of taking it, yeah. 
I mean drives like that don't 

1351
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:22,560
come up. 
You know it's again, it's 

1352
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,520
different to the current era of 
BTCC now it's very much 

1353
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:29,600
independent and taking money 
with you to, you know for these 

1354
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:31,480
drives that you know it's a 
different. 

1355
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,440
You know back then was works 
teams that were involved and 

1356
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,680
seats becoming available which 
didn't always come available 

1357
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:43,440
that often And you know like if 
Matt had had gone there then 

1358
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:47,680
it'd create a seat and yeah I 
think, you know who wouldn't. 

1359
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:51,240
I mean look at what Lauren ILO 
achieved when he came into the 

1360
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:55,040
championship. 
You know how fast was he? 

1361
01:15:55,320 --> 01:16:00,680
But yeah in in terms of you know
having a seat available, you 

1362
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:01,800
wouldn't. 
Yeah, you wouldn't need to ask 

1363
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:05,680
many people twice, would you? 
A. 2nd Dynamics rumour surfaced 

1364
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,560
around the British Grand Prix 
after attempting to retire from 

1365
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:11,920
Formula One. 
After the Silverstone race, 

1366
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,080
Damon Hill was offered a test 
with the dynamic squad. 

1367
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:20,360
Hill, who made a single 
appearance in the BTCC in 1990, 

1368
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:24,000
ended up completing the Formula 
One season with Jordan Grand 

1369
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,440
Prix instead. 
But Hill could have driven a 

1370
01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:32,120
second dynamic Primera if he had
decided to retire Richard Tate, 

1371
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,720
Harris said at the time. 
His talent is unquestioned and 

1372
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,440
would certainly lead to wins, 
indeed the championship, if he 

1373
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:44,120
was to enter out some pretty 
strong predictions and words 

1374
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:45,800
there. 
From Richard. 

1375
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,280
Tate Harris How do you think 
Hill would have said? 

1376
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:50,080
Would it be in a Championship 
contender? 

1377
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:54,360
Or maybe we should temper those 
not. 

1378
01:16:54,440 --> 01:16:56,080
A chance no. 
Not a chance. 

1379
01:16:56,080 --> 01:17:01,520
I mean, so Damon was not. 
You could see Damon wasn't 

1380
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,920
interested in racing throughout 
that 99 season. 

1381
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:08,880
So what makes? 
What makes people think that 

1382
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:11,200
he's suddenly going to be 
interested in racing in a in a 

1383
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,960
BTCC car and winning? 
Not a chance. 

1384
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,440
It's just it's going to be the 
same way as Coulthard and Prost.

1385
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,320
Yeah, exactly. 
I said earlier and also I just 

1386
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:25,240
don't think Hill was what 39. 
He'd lost interest in competing 

1387
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:28,400
he'd lost interest in he had a 
competitive Formula One car you 

1388
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,760
know he had the car that Hans 
how friends and took to 3rd in 

1389
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:37,000
the championship and two race 
victories and he didn't do much 

1390
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,160
with that and and and this is me
speaking as a as a big fan of 

1391
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,520
Damon Hill I'm I'm probably 
biased towards Hill but even I 

1392
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:48,880
can see that it would there is 
no way he would have won races 

1393
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,520
or the championship. 
You know, Matt Eil had spent 

1394
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,600
nine years in touring cars and 
won one race in 99. 

1395
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,880
You know he he had and also the 
like. 

1396
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,720
These he's driving like his 
racecraft wasn't was never going

1397
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:06,040
to be suited in touring cars. 
No exactly no I you could see I 

1398
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:08,240
always saw when he was in 
Formula One like you look at the

1399
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,200
the poor attempts he made on 
overtaking Schumacher in 

1400
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,440
Adelaide. 
Like it was 1/2 hearted attempt 

1401
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:16,480
at the inside of his Benetton. 
But then look at the look at the

1402
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:18,800
attempt he had when he coming 
out of Bridge Corner, coming in 

1403
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,240
towards Brooklyn's, he had that.
Like, what was that all about? 

1404
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:24,080
That another attempt to. 
Yeah, that. 

1405
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,200
Was fairly poor. 
Wasn't it that was really poor 

1406
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:27,160
in life? 
Yeah. 

1407
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:30,200
You see those just two examples.
But he didn't do the karting 

1408
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:33,520
thing. 
He didn't do, you know, getting 

1409
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,120
amongst it, you know, getting 
your elbows out. 

1410
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:41,160
He's not that type of driver. 
So I don't see how BTCC would 

1411
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,680
ever have suited him. 
Out of all the people I think, I

1412
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:47,120
think DC would have found it 
difficult but would over time 

1413
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:50,840
would have would have would have
gelled with it and I think the 

1414
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,640
same with Prost. 
But I think out of all if I have

1415
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,120
any choice of Formula One 
driver, I think Diamond would 

1416
01:18:57,120 --> 01:18:58,760
have been at the bottom of my 
list. 

1417
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:03,960
Gareth Howell appeared in the 
news again in 1999, this time 

1418
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:05,960
with a car that was fully up and
running. 

1419
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:10,240
He wanted to run his self built 
Ford Mondeo in the independent 

1420
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,040
category of the BTCC under the 
Aptford Racing name. 

1421
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:17,680
Aptford Limited was a tuning 
company owned by Hell. 

1422
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,280
This entry was after a previous 
failed attempt to run a Mondo in

1423
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:27,520
the BTCCA few seasons earlier. 
The car appeared on the 1999 

1424
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:31,640
entry list and it ran a pre 
season test and in season tests,

1425
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,480
albeit over 20 seconds a lap off
the pace. 

1426
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:40,960
It was believed that Howard 
spent £250,000 on this project. 

1427
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:45,560
Adam do you think that's a wise 
thing to do, especially at this 

1428
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:48,960
period of the championship where
the manufacturers were spending 

1429
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:52,840
quite a bit more than 250,000 on
their entries? 

1430
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,680
Yeah, I mean quarter of 
£1,000,000 is a huge amount of 

1431
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,200
money and or obviously we spoke 
about this earlier on in terms 

1432
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:00,520
of it's just a crying shame to 
see this money ploughed into 

1433
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:02,960
something but never see be 
successful. 

1434
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,120
But to be 20 seconds a lap off 
the pace, how much is that 

1435
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,720
driver? 
How much is that the car? 

1436
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:13,400
You know, it's if you'd have got
Giovinardi in the car or Frank 

1437
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:18,080
Baylor or one of the top guys in
it, I think you'd get a true. 

1438
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:23,080
Understanding of of how much the
car itself was off the pace. 

1439
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:29,800
But yeah it was it's yeah it 
it's just a lot of effort gone 

1440
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:33,200
into that car and Gareth has 
come into conversation numerous 

1441
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:35,560
times hasn't he? 
Not just in this episode but in 

1442
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:41,360
previous ones and I just think, 
I mean yeah, God loves the 

1443
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:42,400
Trier. 
You know he was. 

1444
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:46,200
He would, he tried, didn't he? 
But he just just never. 

1445
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:50,360
He just didn't work out, did it?
Yeah, I mean what you've got to 

1446
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:53,680
remember is that OK, he's put in
250 grand of his own money in 

1447
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:55,960
which is you know don't get me 
wrong it's a lot of money. 

1448
01:20:55,960 --> 01:21:01,680
But you know he's racing. 
He's designing and building Ford

1449
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:06,760
Mondeo up against the likes of 
Pro Dr., who are spending 

1450
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:10,520
millions of pounds on their. 
Ford's money, yeah. 

1451
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,120
Ford's money on their Mondeo's? 
Yeah, So is it. 

1452
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:18,040
Is it a big surprise that he 
was, you know, he wasn't even in

1453
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:22,720
the qualifying 110% limit? 
No, it wasn't because, you know,

1454
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,040
I'm, I'm pretty sure that car 
would never have seen a wind 

1455
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:26,760
tunnel. 
I'm pretty sure. 

1456
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,920
That that have been so different
for a fan to look at the car and

1457
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:31,600
the shape of the car, Yeah, 
would have been similar to the 

1458
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:34,920
pro job, but that would have 
been so different beneath the 

1459
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:38,880
skin of that car in terms of 
engine position. 

1460
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:42,080
You know everything because I 
could do so much back then 

1461
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:44,840
compared to now. 
You know, you look at those cars

1462
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,040
in the flesh and you look how 
far back the engines are and how

1463
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:49,840
low they see it, where the 
driver's positioned and how low 

1464
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,720
the car is. 
Like doing what he's what he 

1465
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:58,160
attempted to do there, if he 
used to do it in this era would 

1466
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:02,400
have been, you know, fit, You 
know, you'd clap him just to 

1467
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:05,200
congratulate him on putting the 
effort in to try and build a car

1468
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:08,600
to compete in this era. 
Back then, the regulations were 

1469
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,720
so different. 
And you're up against 

1470
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:14,440
manufacturers that are just 
coming up with stuff, designing 

1471
01:22:14,440 --> 01:22:17,640
stuff, remanufacturing things 
from one weekend to another. 

1472
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,640
Like you cannot compete with 
that as a privateer. 

1473
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:24,840
And the proof of that is the 
likes of Dynamics, purchasing, 

1474
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:29,320
you know, a Premera, an 
established Premera, and then 

1475
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:31,840
running in the Championship 
where he can compete and be 

1476
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:35,040
competitive. 
Gareth Howes tried to create 

1477
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:36,400
this from nothing. 
What? 

1478
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:40,320
Makes it even more fantastic is 
this was this wasn't the era of 

1479
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:43,080
the not very good Mondeo's. 
This was the first year of the 

1480
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:45,760
Pro Dr. Mondeo with the drive 
shaft running through the middle

1481
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:50,240
of the V These were trick. 
I mean the Mondeo and even in 99

1482
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:55,480
trim was a massively trick car 
and to basically recreate that 

1483
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:57,920
in in whatever way, it's massive
respect. 

1484
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,200
Not quite some of the efforts we
saw later on, but it is. 

1485
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,080
But I think all the Super 
Touring cars, but they were all 

1486
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:05,840
trick, weren't they? 
Like, I just find them 

1487
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:08,440
absolutely mesmerizing and 
fascinating. 

1488
01:23:08,440 --> 01:23:11,000
And literally, when I see one, 
which is rare, whether it's be a

1489
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:14,680
show or wherever, I just stand 
there and I just look at it, 

1490
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:16,680
yeah. 
Because they're just awe 

1491
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:18,240
inspiring, aren't they, When you
see look. 

1492
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:20,760
Inside it and you're looking at 
the design that's gone into it 

1493
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:23,760
and why they've done it, why 
things are everything you look 

1494
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:25,280
at. 
There's a reason why it's there,

1495
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:27,360
yeah. 
Or a reason why it's smaller 

1496
01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:29,480
than standard, if some of the 
rumors are to be believed, well,

1497
01:23:29,480 --> 01:23:31,000
that's right. 
It's just about to show you that

1498
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,520
you see how. 
Clever the manufacturers were. 

1499
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:35,720
So you've got Gareth Howell as a
privateer. 

1500
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:39,920
He hasn't got, he hasn't got the
brown power of what what's been 

1501
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:41,600
put into. 
I mean, I'm not, you know, it 

1502
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,360
could be the cleverest man in 
the world, but the manufacturers

1503
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,240
have got 100 clever guys working
on it. 

1504
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,720
Honestly turns into that there 
is an article from Mace Car 

1505
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,840
Engineering from 2001 I think 
where they went through in quite

1506
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:59,640
fine combed detail, fine tooth 
comb detail, the work that went 

1507
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:03,040
into making the 2000 Mondeo and 
it's a fantastic read. 

1508
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:07,720
It's an 8 page article, it is 
out there online somewhere, but 

1509
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:09,680
I would recommend you go and 
look at it just to see the 

1510
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:11,640
engineering that went into the 
car. 

1511
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:15,000
They're quite candid about not 
some all the cost, but how much 

1512
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,080
it cost. 
Obviously there changes they had

1513
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:21,200
to make to the shells and again 
if you believe certain rumours 

1514
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:26,560
about certain teams having 7/8 
size cars, the Mondeo's only 

1515
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:30,520
quote UN quote featured massive 
cuts into the body shell to fit 

1516
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:34,400
the tyres into it. 
Yeah, well, they changed the 

1517
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:39,080
rules in 99 for that because the
pit stops came in 98 and they 

1518
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,960
you could see that they were 
struggling to get the tires and 

1519
01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:44,960
the wheels under the wheels 
didn't have the. 

1520
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:46,200
Physical steering lock. 
Did they? 

1521
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,400
They just could. 
Not get through pit lanes so 

1522
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:52,760
they could from 99. 
They could lift the front wings 

1523
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:58,360
to allow a like you say, for the
tires to get put on quicker 

1524
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:00,440
during the pit stop, but also 
then to give you a bit more 

1525
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:02,440
steering lock. 
Yeah, but what what you've got 

1526
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:04,920
to remember now, you say about 
how clever these people were. 

1527
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:08,280
A lot of the people that worked 
in the Super Touring paddock are

1528
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:11,920
now in Formula One. 
Yeah, at this day, at this, at 

1529
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,440
this, at, you know, this time 
you also. 

1530
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:16,160
Would have had people that were 
already within Formula One or 

1531
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:18,360
had a career in Formula One, 
Yeah, and came. 

1532
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:18,880
Down. 
Yeah. 

1533
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:20,000
OK. 
Look at Williams. 

1534
01:25:20,480 --> 01:25:23,320
Perfect scenario. 
Yeah, you're building the cars 

1535
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,120
at the same place that Williams 
are dominant in Formula One. 

1536
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,240
You know this, this Patrick head
you know showing his face in 

1537
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:32,840
there and getting involved and 
you know he's how can the likes 

1538
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:33,920
to go out. 
I'll compete with that. 

1539
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:38,760
Yeah, from from all accounts, 
Patrick Patrick had appeared at 

1540
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:42,000
the he appeared at the race 
meetings more often than Frank. 

1541
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:46,040
Frank came to a handful a year, 
but Patrick was at quite a few 

1542
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:50,600
events and from from, from what 
I'm told, would pop his head 

1543
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:53,640
into the factory, the touring 
car engineering factory, three 

1544
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:55,760
or four times a week. 
Yeah, you. 

1545
01:25:55,760 --> 01:26:00,720
Know. 
So you know to part partake his 

1546
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:04,520
wisdom and knowledge. 
So yeah, it's yeah, you're not, 

1547
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:06,000
you're just not competing with 
that, are you? 

1548
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:09,760
The car was planned to run the 
Alton Park meeting in early 

1549
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,960
June. 
However, its lack of pace 

1550
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,880
stopped that. 
The car ran in more in season 

1551
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:19,200
tests and the pace of the car 
sadly did not improve. 

1552
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:22,480
Eventually the whole program 
would be cancelled. 

1553
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,920
It was an ambitious program, 
entirely funded by Howell and 

1554
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:29,600
his family, which would end in 
disaster. 

1555
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:33,000
The running gear of the car was 
sold off and the shell was left 

1556
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,240
in storage until the car was 
purchased in 2014. 

1557
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:41,640
That's it for this week's 
episode. 

1558
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,400
Which entry would you like to 
have seen race? 

1559
01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:49,440
Let us know by getting in touch.
Don't forget you can now support

1560
01:26:49,440 --> 01:26:52,080
the podcast by buying some of 
our own merchandise. 

1561
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:57,080
Range from mugs to T-shirts. 
All are available at 1990s 

1562
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:03,320
btcc.com forward slash shop and 
all profits go towards keeping 

1563
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:05,160
the blog and the podcast 
running. 

1564
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:09,440
You could also send us a comment
about today's episode, the 

1565
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:13,280
podcast in general, or if you 
have a question or suggestion 

1566
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:19,760
for a future episode by sending 
it to Pod at 1990s btcc.com. 

1567
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:23,000
And in the meantime, we will see
you next week. 

1568
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:26,160
Goodbye and. 
Goodbye from me, and it's 

1569
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:26,880
goodbye from here.