Stories from Super Touring. During the 90s, the BTCC rumour
mill often went into OverDrive. There were always whispers and
secrets of drives and cars that were in the pipeline, some more
realistic than others. Welcome to the latest episode of
Stories From Super Touring. I'm Levi Riley and we're doing
something a little bit different today on the show as we look
back at some of the rumours and entries that never quite made it
onto the grid during the Super Touring era.
That's right, on this podcast we are always keen to try new ideas
and this week we thought we'd try something slightly
different. So please let us know if you
like it, if you'd like more of this, if you'd like less of it,
just give us your thoughts. Looking through these entries,
there were some absolutely crazy ideas during the series of
Touring cars, weren't there? They were, but without going
into too much detail for each of you, which is the one that
really sticks out for you? I think for me probably it's the
as we'll I'm sure we'll come on to the the Mercedes Pro Drive
entry that was rumoured for the end of 1993 into 94.
I think for a couple of reasons. First of all the Mercedes works
team I think against the BMWs in particular would have been a a
brilliant battle. But also the the potential of
burnt Schneider who massively successful touring car driver
albeit in the bit more powerful beasts of the 90s and early
northeast DTM cars but fantastic DTM driver and and touring car
driver but but never obviously really raced in in the BTC or
never raced in the BTCC. So that would have been
something to see again how he had got on against wrinkle hot
tar, queenie and and Co in 93 or 94.
Definitely those two things that stood out for me when we're
looking into this doing this episode and the Citroen BX,
which I know, I know us guys are spoken about before and and
pretty much laughed about it. But that was sort of being built
by the end, at the end of 92, going in for the season 93 I
believe. I'm sure I might get corrected
if that is wrong, but I don't think it actually made it onto
the into the championship. But then there was that also the
one with the potential of Prost and Renner.
Yeah. That one I think would have been
a good one and I think further into this podcast, I'm sure
we'll put Charlie and I've got it.
I've had a little bit of inside info as to sort of what happened
there or what we've, you know, we're just with the word being
mentioned. That's all I'm going to say, and
that's why that was. Interesting.
Well, for me, as we worked out last week with my Keith Oder
comment, I quite, I quite like sort of these childish sort of
things. And I just have images of this
Mazda 323 painted up like Mr. Blobby with David Coulthard at
the wheel. Blobby pink with yellow spots
with Earl Edmunds in the pitch. Earl Edmunds.
House party all down the side of it.
So yeah, there's a there's an interesting story for for 1994
which involves Noel's House party Mr. Blobby and David
Coulthard, which, well, we'll let him explain later on.
So with all that in mind, let's get straight into it.
We start off in 1991 where the rumor mill was a little quieter.
It was the first season of the BTCC where there would be only
one class of car, which meant waving goodbye to the 4th Sierra
Cosworths that had been the only cast to win races outright over
the last few seasons. The move to the single two litre
touring car formula opened up the championship and encouraged
other manufacturers to enter the fray.
It was not only manufacturers that would look to enter,
however, as the new rules also opened up privateer entries.
There were rumours of a privately run Renault, Lancia,
Peugeot and Rover, and once we saw the Peugeot Four O 5 of
Andrew Mackenzie at a few races and the Graham Davis Rover 216
at Brands Hatch, the Renault or Lancia never appeared.
Al would have been interesting to see these entries in the
Championship. Yeah, I mean as you just said,
we saw the the Four O 5 Andrew Mackenzie make its debut at the
the British Grand Prix support round actually and it finished
17th. It wasn't a very competitive
car, but it very rarely was for Peugeot was it, you know in the
BTC season. But, and we did see the Graham
Davis Rover at a couple where he he he went to the first few
rounds of the season and he didn't make a race start until
Brands Hatch in August, where the car ran for three laps
before an engine failure. His Moto build team built that
Rover two and six themselves with the aim of possibly
enticing Rover into a a works programme later on.
But yeah, as I say, the car only ever ran for three laps in any
race, so we hardly saw that. And the Renault would be an
interesting one, it would be a 19, but that never that never
appeared. And I don't know what Lancia
model would have raced, but it'd be pretty exotic, wouldn't it,
to have a Lancia in the BTC? Just like a martini addition
into. Garlic would have gone down
well, yeah, that would have been nice.
Yeah. It's no surprise that some of
these more unusual entries didn't make it past people's
brains and and never actually ended up on track.
Rumours around these privateer entries were that manufacturers
were rather anxious about their cars being raced and were
worried about them performing poorly and started to put
pressure on them to dissuade the privateers from entering Adam.
Can you understand why a manufacturer had maybe not
necessarily want to see one of their cars struggling at the
back of the field with a privateer entry?
Yes, 100% I completely do. You know you imagine being the
the boss of a a top mark brand, worldwide brand and then you've
got, you've got the danger of your brand being tarnished
really haven't you? So depends how much they looked
in, you know how much they look into it really.
And that's why when you look at all the manufacturers that have
been involved in touring cars or any any motorsport really, but
particularly touring cars that were that were on the subject is
the war going at the absolute 4 ball.
You know, in terms of budget, whatever people they need,
however much money they need to throw at it, they have done it
because they've had to succeed. They can't go in there half
heartedly and just do half a job because it's only ever going to
damage the the brand. Like when you think about the
discussion that we've already had with me, Linford about the
Peugeot's, I think it just shows because Mick did a great job
with what he had, but he did not have full backing from the
motorsport side that they've been building these cars in
France with Laura Niello doing his thing out there winning
everything. You'd naturally think that this
Peugeot was going to be built by the same people, developed by
the same people and then just, you know Peugeot UK sort of
funding the program over here. But you had to start from
scratch and and and had no support from France whatsoever.
So it just shows you, you know when you haven't got the back
in, even with you know, as good a job as he did was good at the
drivers that he had with the likes of Tim and Patrick and
Radisich. They've all gone in there and
tried to do the best, but the car just wasn't up to it.
And it just shows you that you know when the brands are
involved directly to have to go at it.
And so I can understand them not wanting somebody to go in there
and just do, you know, half a job because it's never going to
look good for them, is it? No.
And it's not just the sort of the lower end of the privateer
scale that that manufacturers would want to dissuade.
We'll talk about this car later on in the podcast, but there's
the well known story of the 1998 Toyota Corolla that Andy Rouse
had built and designed. You know, Toyota weren't even
willing to back that. You know, Andy Rouse used to run
a Toyota Works program. You know Andy Rouse is a four
time champion, you know, well renowned designer and engineer
of touring cars and and racing cars and even then Toyota was
still reluctant to support his idea.
So you know it it just shows that they're very, very wary of
their brands and the the reputation that the brands have.
So yeah, I I I totally understand why certain people
would be wanting to dissuade people from running their cars.
Other rumours from 1991 included former rally champion Jimmy
McRae entering the BTCC in a third pro drive BMW.
The drivers dependent on the right funding being put into
place and it never materialise. Now what would it have been like
seeing Jimmy McRae in that third Pro Dr. BMWG Fint?
I mean, it would have been interesting wouldn't it?
I mean it wouldn't have been the first time Jimmy raced in the
BTCC and he did a handful of races in 1990 actually in a in a
BMW and he was one of the the endurance drivers in the in the
year, so it wouldn't have been all new to him.
But yeah, it's always exciting. You know the name McRae.
It's still now, doesn't it? Yeah, you know it would have
been, it would have been great to see Jimmy in the in the
Championship and would have been interesting to see how he would
have compared against Super and Palmer in the in the other Pro
drive cars. But yeah, sadly that didn't
happen. But we did get his son in a Pro
Drive BMWA couple of years later up at Knockhill.
So we did get McRae in a BMW in the end, but not Jimmy.
I think even with Jimmy, if he'd have gone in there, I think it's
one thing's for sure. He wouldn't have been afraid of
getting his elbows out, no. No, quite true.
He'd have got firmly stuck in just just the, you know the
character that they they are as a family and how fast they are
and the same with Colin. You know they're not afraid of
of getting their elbows out and getting stuck in.
So that'd have been been a good one to see, especially in a in a
works built proper car, yeah. You know, yeah, with that.
Back in, I think you'd have been.
I think you'd have done a good job, personally.
There was also a rumour regarding a Honda Concerto
making appearance with either James Kay graduating from the
CRX series or Ray Arms driving the car.
Given that he had recent BTCC experience with a Civic,
however, little else is known about that entry.
Would have been interested in that one because the Honda
Concerto was basically a re engineered Rover two and six or
vice versa. That should say, yeah.
So yeah, they would have been. Obviously there was the the
Rover of Graham Davis that we've already mentioned and that would
have been a very similar car to have designed and built that
one, the the Concerto. The rumours in 1992 were more
about what was going on behind the scenes and in the
transporters, so we'll leave those alone for now I reckon.
But in 1993 we do have our first big story from the 90s.
Mercedes were plotting to enter the 1993 championship for the
final three rounds of the season after losing BMW support at the
end of 1992. Pro Drive were heavily linked
with a work supported Mercedes-Benz C Class program
for the BTCC with Tim Suddon as the lead driver.
The plan was to do the last three rounds of the 1993 season
before stepping up to a full program in 94.
The project was top secret but was never given the green light.
The car was going to be built by AMG in Germany and developed by
DTM ace Bern Schneider, who was a favorite to run in the second
car, Adam. It probably would have been a
special thing to have seen a Mercedes brand in the series,
wouldn't it? I think, yeah, 100%.
I mean, you look, we've already highlighted the fact how big a
name Bern Schneider was in the DTM and and just how huge
Mercedes are in German touring cars.
You know, with the DTM program they had and they're in it for
many, many years. They won multiple championships,
just massive. You know, I used to really enjoy
watching the DTM. It was great because they were
just, yeah, just like touring cars on steroids when they they
were just something else and and big budgets then as well, you
know that was sort of back in like the Kiki Rosberg days,
Ludvig days like that. Again, it was rumoured, but I
think it was quite well known that the budgets then, when they
had active suspension and things like that, the budgets during
that era of DTMS was was pretty, you know, nearly on par with
what Formula One producers were at the time.
That's how how big it was. But yeah, to see Mercedes coming
to the BCCC would have been a huge deal, huge deal.
I'd have loved to have seen it but obviously didn't happen.
But yeah, but I think, again, like I've alluded to already,
it's as a brand like that coming into it.
They'd have thrown money at it to make it work.
You know, they would have come in to do one job and one job
only. That's to come in and win.
Yeah, I. Think they decided to eventually
just focus on the Class 1 touring cars and.
And probably did they do a good job there, You know, you know,
possibly running, you know, a bit like Alpha.
You know, Alpha tried both for a bit and then withdrew from Class
2 again. So you know it.
I think, yeah, they were doing enough in Class 1 touring cars
that they probably didn't need to do a Class 2 program
alongside it. Do you?
Think not. Only have the other danger of of
potentially damaging the reputation of what they were
doing out there. Yes.
It's like if he isn't broke, don't fix it sort of thing.
So he was working for them tremendously out there.
So I think to come in and do it over here would have been a good
thing to show they can do it at both sides, you know, other
sides of the water. But I just think you know what
they were doing was so good. Would it have taking their
efforts and if everything's 100% focused over there, can it also
be 100% focused over here as well?
Mercedes were one of the big brands of the era that I would
have liked to have seen. As Adam just said, it would have
been huge having Mercedes in the championship.
The other one that I would have always liked to have seen in the
series was Rover. I just felt that a BTCC with a
Rover would have been with a Rover Works entry would have
been great at the time, but sadly it never, never came to
be. It was rumoured quite a lot.
But yeah, this was one of the major manufacturers that people
often sort of say, well, why aren't they there?
Because you had BMW, you know, IO D came over.
Why weren't Mercedes involved? But you know, as I say, I think
Class one was their priority. I think the.
Rover thing could have been done I think in terms of you know the
op pro Dr. WSR, you know you've got these teams that would have
been there. You know what all manufacturers
have done they've gone to these companies to to develop the car
and to do the job. But like most things around
that's based around Rover. I'm guessing budget wasn't.
Wasn't there? To do it and and that's the
bottom line, but I'm sure they would have liked to have done
it. But again, to do properly, you
need X millions of pounds to do it, and it was probably never
available to them to no, no to put the F in, yeah.
I mean the the money at the time in the Super Touring era, yeah,
they wouldn't be able to get that sort of budget together.
We did get Rover in the end with MG in in 2001 for a few seasons,
but obviously that was when the the BTC spec cars came into play
and obviously that was a lot more affordable for the likes of
Rover MG. So understandable that they
would come in during a cheaper period of the championships, we
say and. Even then, you don't.
We don't really know how. How evolved were they?
Like? Was he?
It's true. Completely, 100% funded by MGI?
Doubt it very. No, I don't.
Yeah, I don't think and I think as it as it went on, I think
the, the involved, the financial involvement became less and less
the. Other Pro Dr. Rema from 1993 was
an interesting one that didn't seem to get reported much at the
time, but was shared with us by John Cleland when he appeared on
Stories From Super Touring. Let's hear what you had to say
now. Well.
Interestingly. A year before that, Dave
Richards of Pro Dr. contacted me and asked me if I would drive an
hour for a meal, which would be sponsored by martini and have
Pirelli tires on. And that was the that was the
that was the deal. And we talked.
We met. He and his wife, Karen and I
went, had dinner, we discussed things and we talked about.
The. Deal.
And what it would be and who's going to run it and blah blah,
blah, blah, blah and all that. And it's something that I wasn't
comfortable with and I don't know enough even to this day, I
don't know what it was. Anyway, the deal never came.
I turned the deal down and it didn't happen.
And I think what? Dr. Was trying to do was to put
me as the driver in the frame then he could pull Alpha then he
could pull Martini. Then he could pull Pirelli and
as as the package. But I I said no.
But thank you very much, you know, but it's probably not for
me. Meanwhile, Gareth Howell was
attempting to make his first attempt to race in the BTCC
during 1993 with his self built 4S Sapphire Alex Gareth tried
his best to get into the BTCC, didn't he?
And this was the first of of multiple attempts.
Yeah. And this isn't, as I'm sure you
know, a lot of people are now aware because every time we
mention it, we do sort of make great pains to tell people that
this isn't the Gareth Howell that everyone thinks of.
When you think of Gareth Howell, this isn't the the guy that went
on to race for Team Atomic Kitten, yes.
And. And went on to win races in the
BTCC with Dynamics. But it's another Gareth Howell,
there's just there's two of them.
And Gareth's first attempt was with this Ford series Sapphire
that he had self built, self designed.
I have never seen this car. As far as I'm aware this car
doesn't exist anymore. I've never seen evidence of it.
So if anyone out there has any photographic evidence or
evidence at this car existed, then we would love to see it
because I've never seen it. I've only ever seen a mock up of
it and that was in the 1993 media guide that I have and he's
listed in the in the entry list. But yeah, this was his first
attempt. He didn't get quite as close as
he did later on in in 1999 and he made his second effort into
the to get into the BTCC. But yeah, he was a Trier, wasn't
he? Bless him.
A final rumour for 1993 was shared recently by our regular
contributor Andrew Charman, who shared a story about Gary Cole
designing A Citroen BX to race in the series.
Let's remind ourselves now of what Andrew told us.
Here I make a confession, but also revealed a project that no
one I don't think ever knew about, because at the time of
this particular race I was not yet a touring car journalist.
I'd already worked at several BTCC meetings that season, but I
didn't actually become a proper full time touring card
journalist until the following year with a short lived magazine
called Motor Racing International.
I'd mainly at this stage been covering Thunder salons and I
was in the point of wanting to get out of Thunder Salons
because I see I could see it was about to collapse, which it duly
did. My mate Gary Cole had raced in
Thunderloons and we were at Silverstone together, firstly
because we knew this race was going to be good and we wanted
to see it. But.
Secondly, because Gary wanted to talk to the BTC CS technical
head Peter Riches because Gary was had ambitions to graduate to
the BTCC with wait for it a Citroen BX.
So. Then guys, what do we think
about that potential entry of that Citroen BX then?
Well, I know we've spoken about it before and and I mentioned it
at the beginning of this of this episode, but yeah, yeah, not
really much to say on it, really from my side.
And I don't know much about it. That's probably a good thing.
So yeah, I don't know if anyone else can shed any light on this
one. I think, Alex, you know quite a
bit about this one, don't you? I didn't.
Know anything about it? Until Andrew Charman told us
about it, and I did. We did get a bit of a telling
off from from a Citroen BX enthusiast on our Facebook page
who who gave, who gave a good argument as to why this car
shouldn't have been ridiculed and why it could well have been
a good BTCC car. So yeah, so we are sorry if you
were offended by us laughing at the Citroen BX, but if you want
to. Want to try saying that without
laughing? That would go a long way.
It would have been a very unusual car to race in the BTCCI
think. What I was to me, what a strange
I mean again, I'm probably going to get questioned.
OK, why not that car, but just a strange car to choose.
I guess from the from the premise of being an independent
you don't have. It's not like a manufacturer
where you have a have a model that you have to you have to use
because that's the one you want to promote.
You know you can have I guess the choice of any car you want.
So why is Citroen BX but at? Least with some of the other
guys that have done the privateers, they've chosen cars
that are already exist in terms of touring car pedigree and it's
been proven that they can perform at a high level.
I think there's all there's there's that danger of choosing
a car where listen it's fine if you've got all the money in the
world and you want to throw out the money at it and you want to
go out you know 4 Bore and and and produced and be an absolute
superstar and produce something that's never been done before
and put it at the front end of the field.
Fair play to anybody that can do that.
But I just think the people that do this haven't got an endless
pot of money. Gareth Howell was one that
clearly put about 1/4 of £1,000,000 into it and and
couldn't get the car anywhere near where he could do and he
chose a car that in theory should have been, yeah, further
further forward. So I just think it's always a
gamble choosing a car that has not got any history at all in
terms of it working. Maybe we'll have to ask Andrew
if we can, if he can get Gary to come on the podcast and tell us
all about the car, that would be really interesting, wouldn't it?
Into 1994 now and the rumour mills seemed to go into
OverDrive. The main whispers at the start
of the season was regarding an intriguing tie up with Master
and Noel Edmonds of Knowles House Party fame.
A young David Coulthard was being lined up to drive
alongside Matt Neal in the Mazda, with the deal dependent
on Edmund's IMG group sponsoring the project.
We spoke to Coulthard about this, so let's hear what he had
to say about it now Not. At all, as well as I can
remember I did, I did a little in 1990 I did a cut.
I was saying to do a couple of races in for Vauxhall once I
John Cleland and thankfully I broke my leg and Spy and
Vauxhall Lotus so I didn't have to do the second race because
it's one wheel drive and it felt alien.
Somebody may have been talking to to Mars on my behalf or you
know, that time I was tested for Williams and I was still very
much focused on on single IMG. Maybe maybe they.
Yeah, but I don't. Remember it yet?
Actually, I've seen. I can see a picture of the car
in my mind, but I have no recollection.
I'm sorry I'm but I'm very bad at remembering things in the
past anyway. Like there's some grand prix's
that I've won. I don't remember.
I I just don't have, you know, early Alzheimer's or something.
I just don't have a good recall for that.
Adam, how do you think call found would have done in the
BTCC that year? I think it would have got
roughed up, to be honest. I think it, I think it's
probably the first couple of races and just thought they'd
like been mugged in pure daylight.
We've seen this with with people.
I mean, look at the rouse, the scenario, Pembre, yeah.
Like. One of the fastest drivers
you're ever likely to see and meet and proven one of the most
successful drivers of all time in touring cars.
And he's got he's gone to Pembrey and got absolutely
beaten up by everybody. I think for Coulthard and it's
always difficult for people that they've only raced single
seater. So you got open wheel, no
contact. For them to just come into that
and just expect to just be quick and be somewhere near the front.
Like, you know, you're going to get introduced to touring cars
in quite a hefty way where you're going to get, you know,
roughed up. Really.
Yeah. And that's the thing.
You've got to dish it out and people you have to sort of dish.
When I say this, I don't. It's not banger racing by.
By no means. When I say dish it out, I mean
like a little nudge here or a little nudge there or just let
people know that like I'm, I'm here to stay and this is, you
know, I'm serious about this. So if you want to dish it out,
you're going to get it back. So.
And that's sort of how it works in any sort of closed wheel
racing, Rayleigh. And that's the respect that you
build with other drivers. So you know where you stand with
them more than anything. So I think for somebody to come
from such a high level of single seater category to then come in
amongst that is just literally like being thrown into the
lion's den. I also feel that maybe I'm
totally 100% wrong and I'm doing DCA disservice here, but I also
feel that he wouldn't be 100% focused or committed to the BTCC
because as he said in the in the in the couple of sense, he's
just said about it. You know, he wasn't really
interested in in touring car racing.
He was very much focused on making a career in Formula One.
He was Williams test driver at the time and he wanted to get on
that Grand Prix grid and there was no way he would have just
given all that up just to race on the BTCC grid.
He he would have been focused on getting into Formula One and.
He'd be more focused on what current test drivers are now
because you think back then there was no testing bans.
You could go and test until the cows come out.
You can go and test every day of the week if you wanted to and
that's why the bigger teams are the most budgets had had the the
joy of being able to do that and develop their cars quicker.
So from him he'd have been doing a ton of testing at that time.
So yeah, I don't think Touring cars would have been absolutely
in the forefront of his mind here.
So again, but it's, you know, it's good for the rumour mill,
isn't it? It's good for us to think a lot
of the possibilities. If he had come in, he.
Wouldn't have been there long anyway, because Snetton was
what, the second meeting of the season?
And that's where that was the same weekend that that Senna
passed away at Imola. And Coulthard had that drive, so
he he wouldn't have been in the series long anyway, because he
would have. He would actually been called up
to to take the second Williams seat in in Formula One anyway.
Do you? Think it was just literally
there for rumours and a bit of PR exercise, yeah?
I think, I think he sort of alluded to that when when I
spoke to him, he sort of said that people were mentioning his
name maybe just as a way to try and promote the the, the program
and he never really took it seriously in in any way.
Out the the world of BTCC, the world of Crinkly Bottom that
have been a pretty interesting tie up isn't.
It certainly said this. I'll turn this podcast on now.
It would have been very bizarre. Crinkly bottom Team Mazda, for
those of you who are wondering what on earth Levi is on about,
get. Onto YouTube Knowles House
party. So Noel Edmonds used to be on a
TV show called Knowles House Party, which was primetime.
Saturday night, by the way, yeah, it was a great.
Saturday night TV Chaos based on it was based in a a mansion that
was in the village of Crinkly Bottom.
Oh no. You got, you got to explain.
You got to explain, you got to. You've also got to explain Mr.
Blobby now. Who's Mr. Blobby now?
Yes, of course, those viewers. Haven't got a clue what.
You're talking about Mr. Blobby? Come on, Al.
How? Is this Mr. Blobby?
Was a fun character. Exactly.
In the. Show I'm sure everyone knows you
Mr. It's one of. Those where you got to say
you've got to watch it, you got to see to believe.
Yeah, for for international listeners, he was at the large
character that had a similar colour scheme to the the the
Mazda zidos actually. Yeah, that's very true, yes.
Yeah, yeah, he was dressed in an outfit.
By the way, this you couldn't see this person and.
And yeah, he didn't speak to Pure Carnage.
Wasn't he? Blobby, blobby, blobby.
And there was lots of gunge and slime and everything.
It was just pure carnage, wasn't it?
But so funny to watch. Yeah, the.
Whole thing would have been absolutely bonkers and.
I think, I think you need to put a few short videos on Twitter
and and and Facebook. Yes.
So the viewers can sort of. Yes, you know.
I'm not getting on the point, you know, so people can
understand what what this episode is going to be about is
that it all makes a lot of sense because at the minute they're
going to think, I have no idea what what is happening with this
podcast right now. Yes.
So crink crinky bottom Team Mazda with Mr. Blovi around
David Coulthard and Matt Neal. Yeah, makes sense.
What a combination? It's like some like 90s child
fever dream. It's basically what I used to
draw on pieces of paper at home, obviously, you know.
I think it was you that was that was creating these rumours.
Yeah, I just. Made it all up, yeah.
The other big missing entry from 1994 was the Ian Flux Peugeot,
which was going to be run by Superpower and named Halfords
Motorsport. Flux discussed this with us
recently on Stories From Super Touring, so let's remind
ourselves of it now. Halfords were so they they
enjoyed the year before and had good coverage, and basically
silk silkoline had paid for it. Silkoline had thought they'd had
enough and Halfords would only come up with half the budget
themselves for 94 and it was 400 grand because John wanted to do
it properly and we have 3 Michelins done anyway.
Halfords couldn't find a partner to offset their so they were
paired to put in 200, but they want somebody else to put in 200
and they couldn't find anybody who they stopped in the shop who
wanted to back up. Come up with that it it it was
the factory car from 93 from the French Championship.
But it didn't happen. I've learned not to.
I've learned not to worry about that shit in my life.
Adam It would have been interesting to see how a French
built 405 would have performed on these shows, wouldn't it?
So just to clarify and following on from our interview with the
great Mick Linford, what was this actually going to be a
French built 405 or was this? We just caught.
Clashing the French beat Just because it's a French car,
because we know that the French didn't build the cars for Mick,
no. So, so it was a year old, but it
was a French car. Yeah.
In that case I'm sure it would have done absolutely fine and
I'm sure it'd probably be this is somewhere near the front.
But yeah, as as things then progressed on as you'd naturally
think that's what happens when you race a French car in the UK.
You're just going to buy it from the the French people that are
building it over there and producing a a winning car.
But obviously that didn't happen when he when he continued over
to the four O 6. But I think it would have been
good. I think, you know Fluxy was
quick, wasn't he? He was, he was quick.
The car was built well to win and I think it would have been
good to see to be honest. Into 1995 and the major news
this season surrounded the debut of Williams into the BTCC.
With the championship winning F1 team also came the rumours of a
championship winning F1 driver wanting to join as well.
Alain Prost was heavily rumoured to replace Will Hoy at the start
of 1995, with team boss Frank Williams eager to get the
Frenchman into a cartoon. His problem however, was that
Will Hoy and Alamenu were already contracted to drive for
the team, whilst the drive for Prost never materialised.
The rumours resurfaced around mid season and there was also
talk of a third car for Prost in that midway part of the season.
Nothing is set in concrete. Alan is employed by Renault and
I know he'd love to drive a touring car.
There might be the odd straw in the wind, said team owner Sir
Frank Williams at the time. Adam how do you think Prost
would have adapted to the BTCC and also a front wheel drive
touring car if he had joined the the pack in that season?
I think very similar to DCI think he'd have got roughed up,
he'd have found it difficult, but he's super quick.
So I think again testing they could do as much as they wanted
to. So it would have been good to
have seen him do that and bring himself up to speed because I
think he would have been quick but over time.
But it's such, you know, it's such a different kettle of fish
going from open wheel single seaters like I did with Formula
Three and Renault over in in France and then going into GT
racing and then touring cars. It's completely different and
you have to change it. You know, your driving style is,
yeah, change that completely. Your racecraft to a point is is
changed as well. And like I said, you know,
there's contacts, you know, it's not Bangor Racing, but it's
contacts. And if it's something you're not
used to, you have to sort of get involved with it because
otherwise you're just going to get bullied really.
But I think and what I alluded to earlier on when I said that I
knew a little bit of inside information, I've got someone on
the inside at at Williams who basically said that you Prost
never drove it. But the rumour could have come
as a little bit of APR exercise and sort of get one up on Ford
with Mansell doing around in 93. So I reckon that might that was
just a little bit potentially a little bit of APR exercise, just
sort of, yeah a bit of APR stunt there which clearly worked
because we're talking about it in 2020.
So you know obviously you can imagine how big it was back
then, you know the the Prost, Renault, it all, it all made
sense, didn't it? You know, it all made sense.
He was part of the Renault Williams French organization,
yeah. I think you're right.
I think he would have been a if he did race, I think he would
have had a bit of a target on his back because the touring car
drivers wouldn't have wanted him to come in and do well because
it would show them up, you know? Oh yeah, exactly.
You've. Got an F1 world champion coming
in. We'll show you pal.
Yeah, that, that's sort of that's, you know, you might just
imagine John Cleveland saying that Scottish voice, you know,
you're coming here, mate, you're going to get it, he said.
Something similar that you know when Mansell made made his BTCC
debut in 98. So obviously the 93 race was a
Toker shootout, so it wasn't a BTCC event.
So when Mansell made his debut at Donington, I think JC roughed
him up a bit going down the Craners on the first warm up lap
of the day of the morning on the race morning.
And I think he they he sort of folded his wing mirror in with
his wing mirror and and Nigel came down and was the hell yeah,
what the hell was that about? You know, in the warm up you
could have had me off and all this and and and then I think JC
said that. He said.
That's touring cars, mate. That's that.
Welcome to touring cars. It's going to be like that for
the rest of the day. So, so get used to it sort of
thing, yeah. Almost like I folded your
mirroring. Get over it.
You went to the racing stars. That's going to be.
You'll be happy to have a mirror still on your car by the end of
the first lap, yeah? And, and and then as he told us
when he did, when he did his interview with us in series one,
you know, as as long as my ass points out, there was no way
Mansell was going to win that race, you know.
So you know that that was the that was the the thoughts that
they didn't want these F1 boys coming in and showing them up,
basically. Yeah.
And. Great.
Great for the sport though. I mean, you've got, you're an.
Absolutely world. Champion.
Well, Formula One, Champions. Coming into the sport or even
being talked about, Yeah, it's huge.
Did you show you how you know touring cars had got, you know,
it was massive, wasn't it? Yeah, it.
Was he was what was he a four time world champion?
It's just that would have been. Huge world champion 2 years
before as well, Yeah, yeah. Still current.
Very, very current in A. Williams, Renault, Alex, Do you
think dropping Eva driver for Prost, do you think that'd have
been harsh on on Hoyle menu, depending on who that was?
Yeah and I think there was no doubt who it would have been
either as the sadly for for Will.
Yeah, Alan was being used by Williams as a as a bit of a test
driver on the side on the F1 side.
So Alan had had a few test runs in whatever FW model that the
car was in 95. Yeah.
So it was never going to be Alan, it was always going to be
Will that would lose out wasn't it?
Unless of course the third Laguna came along in the midway
point of 1995. But yeah, it would have been
harsh because obviously Alan finished second in the
championship in 94 in a Renault Laguna that wasn't a Williams
Laguna, but nevertheless it was you know still a still a Renault
car and he finished second so would have been incredibly harsh
to drop him and and Will was a recent champion in 91, you know
only four years prior. So yeah, it would have been
harsh on either driver and as much as I'd love to see him
Prost, it would have been, it would have been very unfair to
for either driver. And it would have been so late
in the season that neither of them would have been able to
find a competitive Dr. elsewhere, you know.
So yeah, yeah, it would have been a harsh decision on, let's
face it, it would have been Will Hoy other.
Talk of 1995 included an interesting tart with Ford and
Valvoline, with NASCAR driver Mark Martin being pencilled in
to race a third works Ford one day at the Donnington Park
meeting in August. The rumour came about due to the
tie up between Ford and Valvoline with Martin's NASCAR
entry, however the drive would never materialise.
Finally, Slim Borgood was due to race the Mazda 323 for Team
Magic, one of the most well known rumours of the era.
Alex, do you want to tell us a bit more about that potential
entry? Yeah, so it's like, like you
just said, it was a rather well known rumour from in fact it
wasn't a rumour. You know, the car was built as
we know. We saw it race this year at
Hatch but Mazda obviously made the debut in 92 with Patrick
Watts and their their entries were always handled by Roger
Dawson. It never really, I mean Patrick
had some success in the the Z DOS in 93, didn't he, in the the
purple and what did Patrick call it, the plum and custard castle
plum and custard. So yeah, you got pole position
at Snairton and you know got some good top five results.
That was the most competitive Mazda in the BTCC but basically
then Matt Neal had written off one of the Z doses if you
remember in 94 at at Silverstone with these barrel roll coming
out of cops and Dawson then used all the salvageable parts of
that to build another 323 rather than a Z DOS which Matt raced at
the Tokyo the the the World Cup at at Donington in 94 but the
results weren't great but Dawson was determined to get Mazda to
return to the series and this time decided to build another
323. The intention was to run ex F1
driver Slim Borgood in the car and it would be run as team
magic because of sponsorship deals.
The car entered and was on the entry list for 1995 but late in
the day the sponsors pulled out of the deal and left the team
with no budget so the car was never raced.
They tried to look for different drivers to bring funds to run
the car. That never happened.
They then tried to sell it. That never happened and the car
was parked in it. There was never raced in period,
which is a real shame. Roger Dawson obviously was
behind behind Dawson's engineering, was was adamant
that the car in the right hands would have been a race winner
and and said it was the finest ever car his his company ever
developed despite never racing periods.
So yes, a really interesting tale actually.
And then one of missed opportunities.
And yeah, I for one would have loved to see this car racing
period because it didn't look slow at Brands Hatch this year,
did it? It was a bit of a monster, it
didn't it. Lovely sound to it as well
sounded. Beautiful as well.
Unreal. Someone said that you know in
the comments section the other day.
Forgive and if I've got this wrong, I think his name was Jake
And then he said it was the He was so excited to see the car
and the sound of it was just beautiful.
It was one of his favorite highlights of of the weekend and
I'm with you Jake on that one. That was.
It was wonderful seeing that car run.
I find it such a shame that all this money gets plowed into
developing something. Yeah, but then for what reason
at the end of it, You know, it's such a shame because like, you
know, he's alluded there. It's the, you know, the best car
he's ever built. Yeah, like that's something to
say that, you know, to test it and realise the pace of it, but
to never race it. It's just yeah.
Such a shame. Oh, it's just a waste, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, it would have been really
interesting to see how it would have gone well at.
Least he's getting the use now, although it's only you know
events like that, which is great.
At least he's getting used, yes. And it's out there for people to
see it. At least it was.
I was so excited to see it because, as I said, I've never
seen the car in person before. I'd heard about it.
I've written about it, seen pictures of it, but never seen
it in my in in, in the flesh. And yeah, it was really tough to
see it and get. Us now you know it exists.
Exactly, yeah. 1996 saw all the end to the frame and whilst
Frank Beeler was confirmed relatively early on, his
teammate was not so quickly sorted.
The team wanted Auk driver to represent to Mark in the UK
Championship and it was originally said to be between
Derek Borick, Julian Bailey and Tim Sutton.
In the end the driver was given to John Bincliffe, with Sutton
feeling particularly hurt by that decision.
He told Daly Sports Car. I remember it as John Wickham.
He was running the program, he was the team manager.
So I called John and Long story short, I knew I had a chance.
I knew that they wanted a British driver to go alongside
Frank Peeler and there really weren't that many different
drivers available that were good enough.
I'd had some decent results in the Toyota, some good results in
one raises in the BMW. So I knew I had a good chance.
I went for this interview and did.
I fought a pretty good job. I remember at the time that John
Bincliffe was there. I knew John from Fiestas because
he was from Harrogate nearby. John Wickham has said to me that
they are going to interview him, but only because Audi wanted to
see somebody from a junior formula.
They're not really serious. So I drove back to Leeds and I
thought I was going to get it and obviously I didn't and they
gave it to John. John's a great guy, but that
decision did bother me. Some interesting lines there
from from Tim. Do you think, looking back guys,
do you think Audi made the right decision and given the drive to
Binkliff instead for their their time at the BTCC?
No. Well, John, John.
Well, proof is in the pudding, wasn't it?
Yeah. John didn't.
John didn't set the world alight.
I think he was. I think he was a bit out of his
depth, personally looking at it. I mean, what what was the
category that he raced prior to going into the Audi?
He won the fiestas so. You come straight out of Fiestas
straight into a works Audi program.
Yeah, head first against Frank Baylor in an Audi team.
Fair play for giving John the the the ride it it it'd have
been the happiest man alive. But I think in terms of getting
results unless that. But you know is this a is this a
Red Bull scenario where they've got Max in doesn't matter who
this teammate is. Max is #1.
I think there is an element of the number one.
Is it so? Did did Were they bothered about
the the second one Was he just a case that to fill a seat in the
world giving someone a chance? Was he was he some sort of
marketing idea of British driver Obviously selling you know Audis
in the uki get back. Tim was British, but
established. Do you or or here's a theory,
was it a ALDI is investing in bringing a British driver up
through the ranks as well? Potentially.
Possibly. I mean, I I know that sort of as
as sucked and said there that Audi wanted a British driver.
And yeah, the idea of they there was they had to ask.
They had to invite somebody to interview from the lower
formula. So there is a possibility that
that was a part of it. But I think Adam has possibly
hit the nail on the head is that Frank was #1.
There was no challenge in that and they just needed another
driver. Would would Warwick?
Would Bailey would have sucked in.
Would they have challenged be a little bit too much?
I can imagine sucked in would have done.
I can imagine Bailey would have done Warwick not so sure as
much. I like Derek, but I'm not sure
he would have been at the same level as Beeler.
But I can imagine sucked in would have been sucked in as a
driver with considerable talent. And yeah, I think, I think Audi
probably did make a mistake. Bincliff's second year wasn't so
bad. He won two races.
He got in front of, he got in front of Beeler a couple of
times. But yeah, John's first year was
considering what his teammate did was not, was not brilliant.
But again, I'm not sure what to expect.
But then I suppose you could say that about Plato.
Plato came in from spiders and he got pole position for the
first three races of his BCC career in a in a similarly
dominant car. So, you know, as much as
somebody might say Bincliff was thrown in at the deep end, so
was Plato. And look what he did.
Didn't DT badly, did he? No.
So you know, I I I kind of I I kind of see both sides to that
and what? He said about how he made a
mistake there, but did they? If they may have only just like
we've said they may have. But he's got his Frankie's
number one. All our efforts are going into
his car. His car's going to be different
to the number two car anyway and that's that's all we're doing.
So it might have been absolutely tactical and they knew exactly
what they were doing, but then. We wouldn't have got the iconic
line, would we? We wouldn't have had that moment
at Silverstone. We wouldn't have the memory and
we. Might not talk too much.
About the second car, I mean, David Leslie would have been a
bit more impressed, I suspect, but I.
Know exactly what line you're on about.
They've done HEAD. Off goes fixless.
Head Leslie. Wow.
And they are both out of the race.
Now. We're in Leslie's car.
Let's have a look at. Here he is.
He's turning in now into Beckett's Bang.
There's the turn. That's where he's here.
Now. They're both heading down to the
neck in the funnel, which is the island Chicane Bincliff on the
right. Leslie's over the ski jump.
That's it. This.
Is David. Bincliff.
'S done it again and the cars. And don't forget, of course,
you've got the Bincliffe billiards that Charlie Cox
coins, which was, yeah, another. Great one.
They did have a tendency to come together, especially in 97
Bincliffe and Beeler. So yeah, the.
Uncertainty surrounding the Ford programme was another major
story at the start of 1996. Long time Formula Three Team W
Surrey Racing ended up running the Ford programme with Reynard
building a more technically advanced machine.
Adam Do you think it was a surprise that a team with no
experience in touring car racing previously won the contract for
Ford from Ralston Team Dynamics, who were also interested in
running it? Yes, I don't.
You can't not be really. But you know, the more I think
about this question and the possibility you know the
possible answers of this, it's like you just don't know what
happened. You don't know what goes on
behind closed doors there. You don't know what.
You don't know what conversations I had.
You don't know what you know the financials that had been
discussed around the is it was it a money thing where we're
sorry you could do it. You know they doing it for for
less money were they the most expensive so they thought they
were going to do the best job. Don't know.
You don't know. I think it was AI think it was
great for for WSR because he got them firmly on the map and and
up and running and look how successful they've been in the
touring cars since that time. But yeah, when you've got some
other established teams that could have potentially have have
hit the ground running with it, you know they have took a punt
with with them. And yeah, it was a bit of a
surprise completely. The other team that were
interested in running the Ford contract and this is not that
well known was Pacific Grand Prix.
Yeah yeah yeah. So obviously they had left
Formula One at the end of 1995 and and we're looking for a
program to run and then and they applied to to to run the the
Ford contract the they tended and they weren't successful but
yeah Pacific Grand Prix were certainly in the running.
But there was a pre-existing relationship between Pacific and
Maynard, wasn't there? But the whole program at that
point was a complete mess. I think they made a dog's dinner
out of it, of producing the engine in one place, the chassis
somewhere else, someone else running it.
Obviously the original program that Ralph ran works
fantastically because it was all in house.
I mean, the amount of work they had to do just to get that to a
competitive proposition was immense.
But Reynard were, let's not forget the biggest race car
developer builder I know. These days we talk about the
likes of Delara. Well Reynard are even bigger
than Delara are now. Back then they ran lots of cars
in in the USA, in the Carton IndyCar Championships.
Obviously the history in Formula Ford was huge.
They worked with a lot of Formula One teams, including
Pacific. I think they did some stuff with
Benetton and a few other teams as well.
Formula 3000, they were just everywhere.
And I think it's incredible how all of these Formula One teams
just got brought in to run Sling cars in Britain for wonderful,
better phrase in the 90s. Yeah.
The Ford programme was a mess. It was like, like Dan said that
you had Raynard doing one thing, you had Chubel doing one thing,
you had someone else doing another thing and none of them
were working together. And the the result was a car
that was nowhere near the level of the front running cars.
And yeah, it took a few years as we know, for for that Ford
programme to recover from that. And you know, they spent three
years with W Surrey who weren't actually designing or building
the cars, they were just running them.
They were given the cars with very little success.
And it wasn't until Pro Drive took over and it all became
under one roof again that that the success started to come
again. Andy.
Rouse refused to go away however.
Rumours were that the four time champion was still likely to run
a couple of Fords instead with backing from his perennial
sponsor ICS with Top Gear presenter Tiff Nadel, who had
apparently put together a tidy financial package for the
season, the Rouse Fords were rumoured to be run with a 4
cylinder engine rather than the V6 used by Ford since the 1993
season. In the end, Rouse would end up
running 2 Nissan Premieres instead.
Alex, do you think it would have been interesting to see how the
Rouse Bond deos would have fared compared to the 1996 works cars?
Especially considering how for the works cars, 96 is a pretty
poor year, wasn't it? Yeah, as I just said, 96 was a
pretty barren year for Ford. If the car did run, it wasn't
very reliable, but if it did keep running it was.
It wasn't very fast and I really felt for Radisich and Robertson
that season. But it would have been
interesting to see what the four-cylinder, that 4 cylinder
engine would have been like because for 95 and into 96 and
going forwards, really the biggest complaint about that V6
lump was that it was so heavy. Yeah, you imagine.
Imagine the extra pressure and the the hassle that gives you
front tyres, yeah? Well, I think, I think it was
during the halfway point of the 95 season that they've realized
why the car was chewing its front tyres up.
It's because the the engine was so heavy and it was just eating
the the the fronts and and there was, so they would qualify well
and they would start the race well and then they would just
fall. You can control.
The temperatures in qualifinals, you've got a 20 lap raise, yeah.
You've got no chance, yeah. And and that went on for
throughout the rest of the Mondeo's life in the BTCC
actually. Because you know, I know that
when I spoke to to Craig Beard for a piece, I said before he,
he said that one of the, you know, lots of people ask him why
was the Mondeo so good in the wet.
And it was because the the V6 was so heavy.
It was pushing down on the front and it was a front wheel drive
car and it was giving you more grip in the wet weather.
It was giving you giving. You temperature quicker.
Yeah. So that's why that for Mondeo
was always so good in the wet. It's because the V6 engine was
so heavy. So it would have been really
interesting to see what the Roush cars would have ended up
like with with four-cylinder units and and with a Rouse
designed car. It would have really been
interesting to see and it would have been good to see Tiff as
well. I would like to have seen Tiff
in a good car for a full season. He's a good racer, Tiff, and he
he never really got the luck of good cars and when he did get a
good car, he wasn't in it for very long.
Yeah, to get to get used to it, you know.
So yeah, it would. It would have been interesting
to see what Tiff would have done in a in a rouse Mondeo.
Into 1998 and Andy Oz was at it again, this time designing and
building a Toyota Corolla to run independently for the season.
Andy had thought of a plan to build and develop a car that
independents could buy as a reasonably priced off the shelf
car to run in the BTCC instead of purchasing expensive X works
cars from the previous season. The programme soon hit problems
however, as Toyota GB decided to cancel the planned production of
the car in the UK, meaning that homologation of the car would
have to be through Toyota's Japanese arm as FIA rules stated
that the homologation had to be submitted by the country in
which the road car is produced. Sadly for Rouse, the Japanese
arm were not supportive of the programme and refused to back
the homologation because the Corolla was already being used
in the WRC with the Toyota Works programme.
After a few months of discussions, Toyota Japan
finally agreed to homologate the chassis, meaning the car could
be raced in the BTCC. Adam, can you understand why
Toyota were maybe not fully keen to support the project?
Yes. I think you can just imagine
picking up the phone to the Japanese arm of it kindly said
right this is what I need. And a lot what you're talking
about you know because they've had, you think they've had no no
involvement in this program whatsoever.
They've got, they've had they've put no budget into it.
They've had no direct involvement with developing it.
There's there's been no PR advertising campaigns around the
BTCC or nothing and they're just about I need this.
Well, I get a lot what are you talking about?
You know, so he's sort of been landed in it really by the UK
pulling, pulling the car, you know, out of the UK market And
then yeah, he's a bit scuppered, wasn't he?
Really. So yeah, just difficult
situation to be. Yeah, a Toyota had withdrawn
from the BTCC at the end of 95 to concentrate on rallying, and
they were rallying the Corolla. So they wouldn't really need to
promote the Corolla in the touring car world as well
because they were already doing it in the WRC doing.
Pretty well as well, exactly. Yeah, doing it well, you know,
they had, they had Diddy R Didier Oriole and Carlos Sainz
fighting for the title, fighting for the WRC title.
You know, that was obviously going to take their their, their
attention and having as much as I love Patrick Watts, Patrick
Watts fighting for the Independence Cup in the 1998
BTCC is no comparison. Really.
Yeah. Yeah yeah.
So I can, I can totally get why and and again, as we said
earlier with the the talk of the the 1991 entries, if the car's a
dog, it doesn't look good on Toyota, does it?
Definitely. No, not not when you'd like.
You said what they're doing in in World Rally and you've got
the likes of, you know, two of the, you know, to say this to
the greatest drivers. There was tons of greatest
drivers, but you've got Carlos, Sainz and Didier or it didn't
really get much better than that at the time.
No, you. Could.
No, no, not at all. No, it's yeah, it could undo all
that good work because you could see those those cars doing well
on the rally stage and then go to a BTCC event and there's
Patrick Watts at the back of the grid.
I see. And that's what I spoke about
earlier on. You've just got that, you know a
thing. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
You've got that all you've all you're going to do is risk
damaging your the brand's reputation.
Absolutely. We knew all too well why that
rally car was going as quickly as it did.
Yeah. All I remember of the Corolla is
seeing Carlos Sainz try and destroy his right in front of me
at Margin Park which was the end.
Which is literally 5 minutes from my house because obviously
he was on course to win that title, was neat and then broke
down 500 meters from the from the finish and then proceeded to
kick the living daylights out of the car.
If it if it was broken before, it was definitely broken after
he was done with it, wasn't it? So yeah, that's that's the one
thing I think about when I think of Corolla's it's not Patrick
Watts, it's it's Carlos Sainz doing Street Fighter Two special
moves on it, you know, now. The car could race thanks to
homologation. Rounds prepared former BTCC
driver Patrick Watts to race the car.
But for meeting after meeting, the debut would be put back.
First, the lack of testing and development and then a lack of
funds would end up preventing the car from making its BTCC
debut. Patrick told us about the car on
stories from Super Touring. So let's remind ourselves about
what he said. Well, I I.
Know it's all about money. I mean, Andy and Pete Hall were
trying to get money for it. I think he went ahead and bought
that, built that car. To.
Basically get it competitive, present it to Toyota and say,
look Toyota give us some money, but they didn't.
The only way I was going to race it is if I was going to come up
with money and like I I couldn't come up with money.
He was trying to find money, but in the end it it never happened.
Yeah, I tested it. It was it was great.
I mean I've got a lot of respect for for Andy, you know, he he's
one of these legends like Longman, you know who a racer, A
racer, engineer, you know? Cut out all.
The bullshit in between the driver and the engineer.
Just put the engineer in the car.
You're going to achieve big things, which is done and it was
a pleasure to or privilege to, you know, be asked by him.
Really ugly. It was the one.
It was the one with the little Pearl slips at the front.
You know it's still the car you wouldn't buy for the road, but
no, it. I mean, I.
Only did a bit of testing that, snetter them with it, spell it,
spell it through Corum, but yeah, it seemed to do everything
nicely. But again, the difference
between a car at the back of the touring car grid and a car at
the front is is measured in tenths of second on that day.
You know, I don't know what lap times we're doing there around
there. I'm sure they were competitive.
I think we're all quite excited about it, but we don't know
whether that was a quick day or a slow day, what what other
people would have done that day, a final.
Attempt to run the car at the end of the season was made with
Jamie Spence driving, but again the funding fell through and the
whole project was abandoned. Do you think it was a shame that
the Toyota would never see the race track?
I mean, yeah, it would have been interesting to see what it would
have done. Do I think it would have done
anything spectacular? No, I don't think it would have
done it. It seemed like a budget
operation is possibly the wrong phrase.
But it did seem like compared to the teams that were running at
the front of the BTCC in 98, you know, your TWRS, your, your Pro
drives, your Williams, it it wasn't going to be ruffling
their feathers, let's put it that way.
So it's not a huge shame, but it would have been nice to see,
definitely. And it would have meant that
Patrick Watts stayed on the grid.
So that's an extra bonus, I guess.
Yeah, definitely. I think it's a real shame how
Rouse ended his BTCC career, not just as a driver, but as a
A-Team entry and a developer. Obviously he was.
They were critical in developing the regulations to start the
Super Touring era. They had the good success with
Toyotas, obviously them the Fords, that semi works team
thing for Nissan, That's another time.
You can argue that Rouse got hard done by by the fact they
did a lot of work on those premieres initially to prove it
in the UK and then they turn up a few years later without them.
It's a shame that Toyota, as you say, didn't come back, but
really I just feel really bad for Rouse, who was desperate to
show again why he could be up there with the the rest of these
big brands, these big Formula One teams and all the rest of
it, developing these cars and didn't get the chance.
Would never see either of them in the British Joint Car
Championship again. And it's a bit of a poor end to
his involvement with the Championship, seeing how much he
gave to it for 30 odd years or more.
Absolutely. Yeah.
That's you're totally right there, Dan.
It's yeah, Andy. Ross's last official interest in
the BTCC was, like you say, a pair of 95 Nissans from from
Germany. That that didn't go very well,
that struggled in in the BTC in 96 and yeah, Roche deserved to
go out on a on a higher level than that.
Another manufacturer was originally entered for the 1998
season. The Italian Alfa Romeo squad
intended to return to the series with a pair of AR15 Sixes
piloted by Nicola Larini and Fabrizio Giovinardi.
They even appeared on the official entry list, numbered 56
and 57 respectively. The original idea was for the
team to run a small programme towards the end of the season
before a full tilt on the 1999 championship.
However, after the European Championship shuffled their
calendar, Alfa Romeo could no longer make their debut at
Fruxton in August as intended. Sadly, the team never made it to
the grid in 1998. Adam, do you think it would have
been really something to see that Alfa bring those beautiful
156 cars to the British series? Absolutely.
I mean who doesn't enjoy seeing 2 beautifully designed, you
know, lovely red Alfa Romeo's on on any grid really.
I think it was great for us to have them in the championship
that we've that we've seen them before.
And then it doesn't get much Italian than two red Alfa
Romeo's two Italian drivers, you know, all the staff Italian and
you know it's just a great side to say and for them to be
involved and to have them, you know part of the championship.
So yeah, it was, it was disappointing because you got
two again, very well established drivers, well established team.
So yeah, it would have been a good one to have them back in
the, you know in the in the championship.
I'd have. I'd have enjoyed it now.
We all remember Nigel Mansell's wonderful BTCC debut at
Donington Park in 1998 with the Ford.
Well, after seeing Mansell's first meeting at Donington, Alan
Jones and Jodi Schechter put their hands up to take on
Mansell at the season finale at Silverstone.
Alan Gow was keen on the idea and a Renault Laguna for Jones
and a Nissan premier for Schechter were mooted, but the
idea ultimately came to nothing. Alex, three world champions on
the crid would have been something to see.
How do you think they'd have got on?
It's tricky. It would have been great to see,
as you say, that season finale Mansell almost.
It felt like Mansell was ignored largely at that finale because
everyone was focusing on the the Rydell versus Reed championship
battle and Mansell really didn't do much that weekend.
You know he was fighting around around about 10th, 11th, 12th
and he was, yeah, it was almost forgotten he did the second
round. There were there's always a bit
of resentment that might and I don't.
I'm not sure Mansell 100% wanted to be there for that final
weekend either because because he sort of had such a good run
at Donnington and he really, really showed what a brilliant
driver he is at Donnington. And then we almost saw the worst
of Mansell at Brands Hatch in the second meeting of the three
he did. And then there was sort of
arguments about Nigel wasn't happy that certain radio
transmissions were put out onto the onto the TV and then refused
to wear a microphone and refused to have an in car camera.
And so Nigel really wasn't the star of the show at Silverstone
for the finale. So it would have been
interesting, yeah, featuring would have.
He would have featured more if Jones and Schechter had come
along in their and then yeah, because it would have been a
battle. Of the F1 drivers, wouldn't it?
As opposed to unless Nigel was going to put himself at the
front? Yeah, amongst the the the title
finale, yes. Between the two drivers that
were that were going for the championship, it was never going
to be the highlight of that weekend, no.
And and let's face it he didn't have the car to do that.
You know he did well at Donnington because the Ford did
well in the wet and they allowed him to show his.
Yeah, but that Ford was uncompetitive in 98.
There's no two ways about it. And and Mansell struggled.
I don't know how Schechter would have done, quite honestly I have
no idea. But Alan Jones race for Williams
at the the 1997 Bathurst meeting qualified in the top ten in the
Laguna and was only a couple of seconds off menus time, which is
quite impressive for a man of of Jones's age.
Plus around a circuit of that length.
But and also it depends on how much testing were they going to
get beforehand if that was the mistake.
Thing you know, Yeah, again, this was probably.
Just a rumour just to, you know again just to pay our exercise
potentially. How how serious was it?
I don't know. But that, you know, you would
have wanted like a solid week's worth of testing to go into that
if you was Alan Jones or Jody Schechter to to, you know,
they're winners, aren't they? They're not going to go there
just to make up the numbers. They're going to want to get
amongst each somewhere near the front.
So. But you know, with the
programmes that Renault of Nissan already had, were they
going to have time to fit in, you know, a week or two testing
with either driver, Right. Well.
Renault already had a third car running for Rushdad for winning
the Auto Sport Cup for Independence that year, so that
would have been a fourth works Leguma for for for Renault.
Which did they even have? Did they even have a fourth
card? I don't know.
And not that's probably. Why they did it was probably the
second spare car because I thought, we haven't wrote it off
yet, so we'll use it at the last round, yeah.
I know Schechter was, he was ready, but I think from what I
remember he felt it wasn't, it wasn't a serious, serious
proposition. But he sort of said, if I
remember rightly, he said he set a deadline.
He said, look, I want to know if this is happening.
I want to know by this time and that time passed and nothing
happened. So yeah, it's it would have been
good to see. I don't know how either of them
would have got on to be quite honest with you.
If if we're brutally honest, they probably both would have
struggled. But yeah, it would have been
really great to see. To come in as a one off race
you're going to, they're going to naturally going to struggle.
You're up against established drivers in established cars that
know the circuits very well. So for them to just to come into
it as a one off, like I said, unless you one thing is going to
do like a week or two is testing to get yourself up to speed.
Another thing is getting amongst it, but also I think there's a
bigger PR exercise with Mansell as well, yes.
That's the British. PR exercise, British fans and
everything. And the Brand Forge, you know,
that was just, you know, the cold.
Land a lot silly. Yeah, absolutely.
And I was one of them.
Yeah, I'm aware that. I know Adam's a big Mansell fan
and I'm aware. I know, that's why you're.
Choosing your words carefully, aren't you, Alex?
Exactly, yeah. People are aware of my thoughts
on Mansell you. Listen, you need you need to,
you need to stop all this against my knowledge, right?
I've had the pleasure of meeting the man twice and honestly like
I said before I think if I'd of met him in the height of his
fame like 92 and and all the stories you hear how difficult
he was and all this and I'm sure he probably would have been true
and I probably would have been devastated to meet him at that
point. But to meet him in a retired
capacity that he's in and the work he was doing for like just
so much work for charity and to see me in a in a relaxed
environment and a charity karting event of just select
people that he had there was just yeah I'll I'll remember
it's the day I die. So it's just one of the things.
But he was, for me growing up, single seat as he was who I
aspired to be and he was my motivation to get me through
some really difficult times when I went out to France on my own.
And yeah, just my his vision, this is.
Where my hypocrisy is, because I've met him and I did lovely.
He was lovely here. We go look, so you are a Red 5
fan now Come on, so. But no, no, no thoughts that
yeah, no matter all my thoughts of Mansell.
What you is undeniable is that man pulled the British crowd
like nobody else. Exactly.
Slice him as much as you like in terms well, but look at look at
Schumacher. Everyone hated Schumacher.
Yeah, beat their. Michael through his dominant
days, but the man was a dominant.
He was just a winner. Look at look.
At the crowd at the Toga shootout in 93.
The 78,000 people in the middle of November, cold November day,
just turning out because of course, he hadn't raced in
Britain that year because he was out in the States.
Yeah, he could pull a crowd like no other.
So Jeff Mansell was a by far bigger draw to Ford than than
Jones would have been. Or Schechter, Yeah.
With Anthony Reed moving to Ford for the 1999 season, that
created a colossal battle for the Nissan he had vacated.
Matt Neal was heavily linked with the drive, especially after
impressing at Bathurst and a works Nissan at night at the end
of 1998. Eventually his drive went to
Laurent Aiello, but Team Dynamics had a contingency in
place. Paul Morris was tasked with
replacing Neil at Dynamics. Had he left to take the second
Nissan seat, Adam, that would have probably been a price seat
for a lot of drivers had it become available, wouldn't it?
Part of taking it, yeah. I mean drives like that don't
come up. You know it's again, it's
different to the current era of BTCC now it's very much
independent and taking money with you to, you know for these
drives that you know it's a different.
You know back then was works teams that were involved and
seats becoming available which didn't always come available
that often And you know like if Matt had had gone there then
it'd create a seat and yeah I think, you know who wouldn't.
I mean look at what Lauren ILO achieved when he came into the
championship. You know how fast was he?
But yeah in in terms of you know having a seat available, you
wouldn't. Yeah, you wouldn't need to ask
many people twice, would you? A. 2nd Dynamics rumour surfaced
around the British Grand Prix after attempting to retire from
Formula One. After the Silverstone race,
Damon Hill was offered a test with the dynamic squad.
Hill, who made a single appearance in the BTCC in 1990,
ended up completing the Formula One season with Jordan Grand
Prix instead. But Hill could have driven a
second dynamic Primera if he had decided to retire Richard Tate,
Harris said at the time. His talent is unquestioned and
would certainly lead to wins, indeed the championship, if he
was to enter out some pretty strong predictions and words
there. From Richard.
Tate Harris How do you think Hill would have said?
Would it be in a Championship contender?
Or maybe we should temper those not.
A chance no. Not a chance.
I mean, so Damon was not. You could see Damon wasn't
interested in racing throughout that 99 season.
So what makes? What makes people think that
he's suddenly going to be interested in racing in a in a
BTCC car and winning? Not a chance.
It's just it's going to be the same way as Coulthard and Prost.
Yeah, exactly. I said earlier and also I just
don't think Hill was what 39. He'd lost interest in competing
he'd lost interest in he had a competitive Formula One car you
know he had the car that Hans how friends and took to 3rd in
the championship and two race victories and he didn't do much
with that and and and this is me speaking as a as a big fan of
Damon Hill I'm I'm probably biased towards Hill but even I
can see that it would there is no way he would have won races
or the championship. You know, Matt Eil had spent
nine years in touring cars and won one race in 99.
You know he he had and also the like.
These he's driving like his racecraft wasn't was never going
to be suited in touring cars. No exactly no I you could see I
always saw when he was in Formula One like you look at the
the poor attempts he made on overtaking Schumacher in
Adelaide. Like it was 1/2 hearted attempt
at the inside of his Benetton. But then look at the look at the
attempt he had when he coming out of Bridge Corner, coming in
towards Brooklyn's, he had that. Like, what was that all about?
That another attempt to. Yeah, that.
Was fairly poor. Wasn't it that was really poor
in life? Yeah.
You see those just two examples. But he didn't do the karting
thing. He didn't do, you know, getting
amongst it, you know, getting your elbows out.
He's not that type of driver. So I don't see how BTCC would
ever have suited him. Out of all the people I think, I
think DC would have found it difficult but would over time
would have would have would have gelled with it and I think the
same with Prost. But I think out of all if I have
any choice of Formula One driver, I think Diamond would
have been at the bottom of my list.
Gareth Howell appeared in the news again in 1999, this time
with a car that was fully up and running.
He wanted to run his self built Ford Mondeo in the independent
category of the BTCC under the Aptford Racing name.
Aptford Limited was a tuning company owned by Hell.
This entry was after a previous failed attempt to run a Mondo in
the BTCCA few seasons earlier. The car appeared on the 1999
entry list and it ran a pre season test and in season tests,
albeit over 20 seconds a lap off the pace.
It was believed that Howard spent £250,000 on this project.
Adam do you think that's a wise thing to do, especially at this
period of the championship where the manufacturers were spending
quite a bit more than 250,000 on their entries?
Yeah, I mean quarter of £1,000,000 is a huge amount of
money and or obviously we spoke about this earlier on in terms
of it's just a crying shame to see this money ploughed into
something but never see be successful.
But to be 20 seconds a lap off the pace, how much is that
driver? How much is that the car?
You know, it's if you'd have got Giovinardi in the car or Frank
Baylor or one of the top guys in it, I think you'd get a true.
Understanding of of how much the car itself was off the pace.
But yeah it was it's yeah it it's just a lot of effort gone
into that car and Gareth has come into conversation numerous
times hasn't he? Not just in this episode but in
previous ones and I just think, I mean yeah, God loves the
Trier. You know he was.
He would, he tried, didn't he? But he just just never.
He just didn't work out, did it? Yeah, I mean what you've got to
remember is that OK, he's put in 250 grand of his own money in
which is you know don't get me wrong it's a lot of money.
But you know he's racing. He's designing and building Ford
Mondeo up against the likes of Pro Dr., who are spending
millions of pounds on their. Ford's money, yeah.
Ford's money on their Mondeo's? Yeah, So is it.
Is it a big surprise that he was, you know, he wasn't even in
the qualifying 110% limit? No, it wasn't because, you know,
I'm, I'm pretty sure that car would never have seen a wind
tunnel. I'm pretty sure.
That that have been so different for a fan to look at the car and
the shape of the car, Yeah, would have been similar to the
pro job, but that would have been so different beneath the
skin of that car in terms of engine position.
You know everything because I could do so much back then
compared to now. You know, you look at those cars
in the flesh and you look how far back the engines are and how
low they see it, where the driver's positioned and how low
the car is. Like doing what he's what he
attempted to do there, if he used to do it in this era would
have been, you know, fit, You know, you'd clap him just to
congratulate him on putting the effort in to try and build a car
to compete in this era. Back then, the regulations were
so different. And you're up against
manufacturers that are just coming up with stuff, designing
stuff, remanufacturing things from one weekend to another.
Like you cannot compete with that as a privateer.
And the proof of that is the likes of Dynamics, purchasing,
you know, a Premera, an established Premera, and then
running in the Championship where he can compete and be
competitive. Gareth Howes tried to create
this from nothing. What?
Makes it even more fantastic is this was this wasn't the era of
the not very good Mondeo's. This was the first year of the
Pro Dr. Mondeo with the drive shaft running through the middle
of the V These were trick. I mean the Mondeo and even in 99
trim was a massively trick car and to basically recreate that
in in whatever way, it's massive respect.
Not quite some of the efforts we saw later on, but it is.
But I think all the Super Touring cars, but they were all
trick, weren't they? Like, I just find them
absolutely mesmerizing and fascinating.
And literally, when I see one, which is rare, whether it's be a
show or wherever, I just stand there and I just look at it,
yeah. Because they're just awe
inspiring, aren't they, When you see look.
Inside it and you're looking at the design that's gone into it
and why they've done it, why things are everything you look
at. There's a reason why it's there,
yeah. Or a reason why it's smaller
than standard, if some of the rumors are to be believed, well,
that's right. It's just about to show you that
you see how. Clever the manufacturers were.
So you've got Gareth Howell as a privateer.
He hasn't got, he hasn't got the brown power of what what's been
put into. I mean, I'm not, you know, it
could be the cleverest man in the world, but the manufacturers
have got 100 clever guys working on it.
Honestly turns into that there is an article from Mace Car
Engineering from 2001 I think where they went through in quite
fine combed detail, fine tooth comb detail, the work that went
into making the 2000 Mondeo and it's a fantastic read.
It's an 8 page article, it is out there online somewhere, but
I would recommend you go and look at it just to see the
engineering that went into the car.
They're quite candid about not some all the cost, but how much
it cost. Obviously there changes they had
to make to the shells and again if you believe certain rumours
about certain teams having 7/8 size cars, the Mondeo's only
quote UN quote featured massive cuts into the body shell to fit
the tyres into it. Yeah, well, they changed the
rules in 99 for that because the pit stops came in 98 and they
you could see that they were struggling to get the tires and
the wheels under the wheels didn't have the.
Physical steering lock. Did they?
They just could. Not get through pit lanes so
they could from 99. They could lift the front wings
to allow a like you say, for the tires to get put on quicker
during the pit stop, but also then to give you a bit more
steering lock. Yeah, but what what you've got
to remember now, you say about how clever these people were.
A lot of the people that worked in the Super Touring paddock are
now in Formula One. Yeah, at this day, at this, at
this, at, you know, this time you also.
Would have had people that were already within Formula One or
had a career in Formula One, Yeah, and came.
Down. Yeah.
OK. Look at Williams.
Perfect scenario. Yeah, you're building the cars
at the same place that Williams are dominant in Formula One.
You know this, this Patrick head you know showing his face in
there and getting involved and you know he's how can the likes
to go out. I'll compete with that.
Yeah, from from all accounts, Patrick Patrick had appeared at
the he appeared at the race meetings more often than Frank.
Frank came to a handful a year, but Patrick was at quite a few
events and from from, from what I'm told, would pop his head
into the factory, the touring car engineering factory, three
or four times a week. Yeah, you.
Know. So you know to part partake his
wisdom and knowledge. So yeah, it's yeah, you're not,
you're just not competing with that, are you?
The car was planned to run the Alton Park meeting in early
June. However, its lack of pace
stopped that. The car ran in more in season
tests and the pace of the car sadly did not improve.
Eventually the whole program would be cancelled.
It was an ambitious program, entirely funded by Howell and
his family, which would end in disaster.
The running gear of the car was sold off and the shell was left
in storage until the car was purchased in 2014.
That's it for this week's episode.
Which entry would you like to have seen race?
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Goodbye and. Goodbye from me, and it's
goodbye from here.