Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of Stories from Super Touring.
Now we've got another brilliant guest lined up for you this
week. And let's face it, he's a bit of
a touring car legend. Matt Neil was an independent
superstar during the era of Super Touring between 1991 and
2000, and he was one of the few drivers to race in every single
season of that era. He then went on to win three
BTCC titles in the future. So I'd like to welcome touring
car legend Matt Neil to stories from Super Touring.
Matt, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
How are you? Yeah, I'm good.
I do think I look like I've got no ears on here.
But where the cameras cut me back.
Yeah, they are here. That's good, good, but no thanks
for coming on the show. And, and first of all, on behalf
of all of us here at the show and at at the blog, we'd like to
offer our condolences for the loss of Steve Neil, your father,
last year. Is it fair to say that you're
racing bug originally came from from Steve and I'm I'm sure a
character like that it it. You can't help but get that bug
from him. I think I had yeah.
And no, I think I had the bug. Anyway, it's never really sort
of, it just sort of happened with with with dad passing, as a
lot of people have experienced. The one time it really sort of
hit me was literally we were driving back from Good Revival
last last weekend and it's a long drive back from any to
anywhere from Goodwood, you know, down on the South Coast.
And I'm in the in the car on the way back.
And I just thought I need to phone dad, tell him how I got
on. And that's when it's sort of
like, you know, he's not there because he was always like, even
if he wasn't with me, all the British stuff, he'd be with me,
the foreign stuff. He went to Bathurst a couple of
times. But the rest of the time I was
sort of mainly on my own. But I would always report in
because he was such an, we were a partnership, you know, and he
would push me, he'd give me a hard time.
He wasn't, he didn't suffer falls gladly or failure gladly.
So it's, I do miss him. You've got to get on with it.
But he was, he was such a driven person, you know, second was the
the first of the losers to him. Yeah, definitely.
I I do recall an incident, I think it was at Donington in
2000 where I think you missed a pit lane call and he came on the
radio and gave you a right bollock in for it.
And it was, it came up on the BBC coverage and it was funny.
But but yeah, that was that was your relationship, I guess.
It's a lot. There was a long story, I won't
go into it, but we went to Bathurst in 98 in the, in the
Nessen and we weren't meant to even the longest an engine had
lasted. And then this and that year was
600K and the race is 1000 K and we ran the Volvo all the way and
you know, we lost by second. We were all euphoric that we got
a second place in a podium and blah blah blah.
And we'd finished the race and you know all the rest of it.
He was so angry that we were happy to be second.
He burst a blood vessel in his eye and he claimed, claimed he
gone blind. So we were all going down the
league club partying and he was like sat in a chair fuming in
this house we'd we'd rented like because he was so upset about
it. That's brilliant.
So where did your motorsport career start then?
Where? Where did you take your first
tentative steps into the sport? You know, it's the old cliche,
it's everything you wanted to do since you were four years old.
And that's what I can remember, all I wanted to do.
I think my dad had retired by the time I was sort of old
enough. I mean, the only memories I've
got my dad racing is I think he got brought back from it.
I think it was either Brand's actual Nurburgring and he was in
pieces, he is free or something. And he got bandage over his
thing and some blacks propped up against the front door all in
bits and then scarp it in the calf from my mom.
And he was laying on the bed with a patch over his eye and
his ominous sling. And I was about two years old.
And that's the last thing I can remember of him racing that in
the 1976 British GP, he did a celebrity race in in Mark, Mark
One or Mark 2 Escorts. And I can remember that.
And he spun out and my mum's standing in the grandstand
screaming. But yeah, for me, because he
took us to big races like the Grand Prix when you could get in
affordably in the Tourist Trophy and that sort of stuff.
And he used to sneak us in the book of the car so you could
sneak in without paying and all the rest of it.
And when Silverstone was a plowed fields, you know, in the
centre and I remember that and going to Alton Park and getting,
you know, looking through the fence and getting autographs
from Brian Muir and Stuart Graham and and, you know, Gordon
Spice and all the rest of them. That gave me the bug.
And then I sort of got to 17. I was, because my size, I was
very good at rugby at the time and I just wanted to race.
All I wanted to do is race. But I left school at 17, got a
job and was earning. So bought a, bought a motocross
bike for £500 and I went off doing motocross because it's
the, it's the biggest adrenaline rush for the smallest budget you
can do. And you know that's what I did,
put a trailer on the back of my car and I got and I did for that
for the next 4 years and then my dad literally got me into a car
just to get me away from the bikes so I didn't bounce.
Yeah, bikes tend to scare parents quite a bit, don't they?
Yeah, the, the, The funny thing was or not funny thing, it's
funny now. At 19 years old I ended up in
Birmingham Accident Hospital in traction, in the bed next to my
dad in the same ward, in the bed next to where my dad had been
when he was 19 years old for a similar motorbike accident.
So. All right, well, I.
Think that's when it dawned on them they've got to get me off 2
wheels. I love bikes, but bikes don't
love me. I've still got a couple in the
back of here which which you probably can't see.
So once you were gently suggested to go into car racing
after the bikes, then you were very good at it often the outset
and you went into the group pen championship and won two class
titles. At that point.
Was it sort of, was it something that came naturally going into
cars from bikes? Was that something you had to
develop over sort of the the first year or two of you car
racing? I think just before the group
and I got into Group One make racing and he he he bought an
old Fiesta, an old challenge car, which is there.
I mean, they have 3 or 4 grand, then it's a different great,
it's a different gravy to it is now.
And not, not with a view to go racing just to get me away from
the bikes. We're just going to go track it
and all the rest of that. And I remember going to
Silverstone and I got my dad's old BMC overalls, 2 piece
overalls, one piece overalls, no mix from 1960s, which didn't fit
because he's smaller than me. And I'm going around there.
And then still Silverstone stood picking me up because I've done
something wrong. And it was like, you don't know
because no one, there's no YouTube then there's no Internet
then. So you just you, you find out as
you go along. And we did two years in two
years with Goodliff. Then he then he knew something
Jeff Goodliff, an old friend of his who was running fiestas in
one make championships. So I went along with them and we
had two good years with them and sort of learnt a bit of my
craft, which I say some people going now racing one makes is a
fantastic proving ground because it teaches you spatial
awareness. And so people who are around you
teach you to look after yourself.
Really it's it's a school of Hard Knocks, but it it's a good
proving ground. And then sort of that leap
frogged me. We, we never had massive money
because my dad's company went bust on my 18th birthday.
And so we were, we were building the company up, but we just, we
went to each of our suppliers. We were starting with the wheel
business and we were trying to just tap them up about £500 here
and £1000 here. And, you know, just anything
that we could just to make a budget.
But the budget was, you know, 4688 grand for the year.
Yeah, it was. It wasn't anything like today
and we could make it up, but that's what we do.
And then as the company, the wheel company was growing and as
it was growing, we managed to extort or coerce or encourage a
little bit more money out of each of the suppliers and
partners and try and get some external sponsorship, which as
my career grew up and the budgets grew, it sort of grew
with us. Good.
So Matt, so when you went into BTCC for the first time, that
was in 91, wasn't it? And that was a British GP
support race and you did that with Pyramid Motorsport.
So he was alongside of the legendary Frank Sitner, who was
in the championship for some time.
How did that all come about to go from what you were doing
there and to all of a sudden your first BTC, the GP support
race of all you know? I think I'd had a, I'd been
doing. I'd done 1990 in A and won the
clock. It's when you had the structure,
you had Group A which was the touring cars, which was the
pinnacle, then you had Group N beneath that which which was
almost a production saloon formula.
But they were both really supported by manufacturers and
I'd done well and I'd won, won my class in a BM WM3.
So, and you suddenly you were on BMWs radar or the manufacturer's
radar because they were looking for young talent.
It's a completely different world to it is now because if
you, you proved yourself, then you were spotted and then you'd
get tests and you, you could make a good living out of it.
And totally different to it is now.
And I got on the BMW radar in 1990 and then I moved to a
Skyline, Nissan Skyline in 91, but I was still on BMW's radar.
So they offered me a junior team test.
Was it 90 or 1991? I think it was.
And there was me menu, Michael Bartles, Ronaldo Capello, There
was a bunch of us, Patrick Hoisman all went and some of us
got it, some of us didn't. I didn't get it.
And so but I was still on the BMW radar.
So we had an affinity with BMW. There were, I think the M3 was
the, you know, people were coming out with the Toyotas or
the Vauxhalls or any, you know, other stuff at that point.
And the M3 was, it had been around for a couple of years in
BTC, the two litre rigs. And it was a cheap and easy way
into it. And some teams had spare cars
and Pyramid had a spare car because Godfrey Hall had been
running it and still owned the car.
And we just got a really, really good deal to run at the Grand
Prix. And it was it was literally
again, we went to everyone we knew to make up the budget from
aluminium surprise box. We even got British Gas chipping
in some money and but. It was a good event for you to
sell that to sponsors, wasn't it?
Is that is the cheapest support race?
I mean, we've been on to gown now that you know, it's yeah,
you do get treated like shit when you're there.
By F1. It is.
Well, it was Bernie back then though, wasn't it?
Yeah. And I do think it was a it was a
an asset to the whole event in F1 as well, because it was
almost like everyone could be a boring race.
And then bring on the clowns and we'll have have some fun, you
know, watch it all kick off. And it did, you know in 92, at
the end of the last race, you know, the last race of the
season, it probably did kick off.
You came back later in that season in 91 for more one off
drives with BRR Motorsport and Tech Speed as well.
I'm guessing at that point you kind of had an idea.
British Touring Car Championship was was what you wanted to aim
for, for your future. You know, some of these, these
kids now, they go right, I'm going to get to F1, I'm going to
get to touring cars, I'm going to get this.
And they've set the sights really high.
I never did that when I was doing motocross.
I was happy doing motocross and all I wanted to do was do the
best I could in the category I was when I was in Fiestas, same
when I was in and it was my dad pushing me a bit.
So I do think you need to be pushed out your comfort zone.
And I was never good at that. I was happy in my comfort zone.
So touring cars was the probably the next step.
And I and I idolized it, but I never thought I'd get there
ever. But I'd get there never, let
alone raced it, winning it or win a championship in it.
That was completely off the radar.
And so opportunities came up and, you know, we got a, we got
an opportunity. My dad spoke to to to Victoria
Lee and then opportunity came for the car and it was we got
some sponsorship in and two and two together and yeah, got 6,
but it worked out and you know, the 92 could have been a whole
lot better with the car. We got the car package we
started the season with was mega and did all the preseason
testing. Then we got a bit, we got a bit
shafted at the beginning of the year which which was
unfortunate, but just with the engines and everything about.
It's a beautiful car. That entry with the silver and
black livery is one of my favourites of the of the era 111
thing that interested me. I is you could have ended up in
an A Curia cost Cavalier that year in 92, but you didn't.
There's there's a little story behind that.
How do you know that I? Can't remember.
End of 91 or the back end of 91. Rare Malec phonia and I, I
didn't know who Ray was. I literally now with my
experience and everything, you know, you know things, but I
didn't because my dad had got being completely out of the
sport for 10-15 years. And Ray found me up and said,
oh, we've been watching you in Group N and we think you're all
right. And we'd love to run you
alongside David Leslie in the Curie Costco.
I didn't know who the hell Ray was.
And I went, Oh, I think my dad sorted something out with
Victoria and I'm all right. And I'm like this.
And now we go, Oh, one of the opportunities in in my racing
career, I roof and never driving for Ray because I'd have loved
that NAR ML but and they could have could have changed the way
my career went. But say la vie.
So I mean that that year there is a fleet, a famous flashpoint
at, at Knock Hill, you and Colin McRae, who was doing a guest
drive for BMW up there. You, you and him had a bit of a,
well, I mean, it wasn't you and him.
He blatantly shoved you off the track.
And then the rumour is he went hiding from your dad in the
paddock after the race because Steve wasn't best pleased.
Yeah, it wasn't very happy. I mean, I mean, that was monsoon
rain that weekend and Colin had been drafted in and for because
he was a massive draw. And what people forget is, is
back then the big advantage the BMWs had is they just developed
this racing ABS system, which no one had at that point, which is
completely different to a road system.
And it wasn't adaptive. So you literally had different
chips you had to put in for different weather conditions.
And as a privateer, we had one chip, which was one chip and it
was one-size-fits-all. And, and at the factory cars
they had, there are multiple ones they could use.
And so they had a, you know, the deep weather and I think in the
dry pollen struggled a little bit and in the way he obviously
came alive with his, with his, you know, the skill he's got
with a loose car and all the rest of it.
And so he's coming through the field, found me.
And then you sometimes, you know, the professional way you
get someone, you just unsettle their rear end, then you ease
them out and then you go through.
He wasn't happy with that. He just unsettled my rear end
and then just kept on drilling me till he pushed me out the
race. And that pissed me off, to be
fair. And it was presumably
unnecessary. He'd have been through anyway,
but he just just. But that was him afterwards, the
arrogance of, well, I don't care because I'm not here and because
Dr. pull some strings and everything, you hadn't even got
a race license. But when they tried to ban him
or do him, they hadn't even got a race license to put points on.
That was the crux. Of that's crazy.
You know, I mean, Can you imagine that happening now?
Yeah, because after the race he was quoted as saying, well, I
thought that's what Torian Cars was about anyway.
It was so he's arrogance of it, so fuck him.
So with the controversy surrounding Victoria Lee and
Victoria Lee Motorsport towards the end of the night two season,
your dad and Ray Bell bought the assets of Victoria Lee
Motorsport and Creatives Team Dynamics, which obviously is a
very household name in the sport now.
And with that, run yourself, Andre and Alex Portman for the
majority of the season. How was that in terms of the
transition from obviously the budget should be, you know, did
that bring more budget? Did that bring sort of better
assistance for running yourself and other drivers in the team?
I think they had a promise there was.
Ray set it up and my dad went with it and Steve said was
involved as well because they said get us because BMW were
obviously had a sniff at the championship in 92 with with Tim
Harvey. And they said get us to the end
of the year. You know, we've got to get rid
of this Victoria Lee's stigma or VLM stigma back then.
And guess in the year we'll crack at the championship and
which obviously I'm good. And then we'll look for a
factory team factory till next year.
So they won the championship, which is happy days, right?
And then they just pulled the plug at the end of the year.
So Ray, my dad and Sopa got shafted a bit by BMW.
That's life, unfortunately so. But the team was there and he's
existed. They got the cars or or bases of
the cars. And so we came back in, in 93.
But the problem was then is it was such a super Touring.
It was the start of it. It was such a fast moving
environment for development and it was a tire war back then.
So you had Michelin V Dunlop V Yokohama V Pirelli and we got,
we're on Michelin tyres I think. And but you had the factory cars
and you had privateer cars and because we weren't a factory
team, they wouldn't let you have the same tyres as the factory
cars. So same brand.
But not the same compound A. 100% and literally it would be
two seconds of that difference. So it could be the meaning the
difference of you being on the front of the grid and the back
of the grid. And and you'd you'd see them in
the truck when you go up to them and you go, I want them, those
ones there. No, you can't have them.
You can have these shitters we got around the back.
Yeah. Big, huge ones they own.
We laugh about it now. No, they're brand new.
You make all the old compounds because they just that was your
place. That's what you got.
And we, we just never got the tires same way as in I signed
for Mazda in in 94, which was which I thought were great.
Happy days. Patrick had gone well in it in
93 and we were on Yoki's. Yoki was not a bad tyre.
Toyota was the factory team on Yoki's we got, even though we
were a factory master team, we weren't allowed the same tyres
as Toyota. So it was just shit.
Now it's the it's the tyres depicting everything.
Yeah, why? Because it's, I mean, we'll talk
about it in depth later on, I'm sure, but the first race you won
outright was the first time you guys were allowed the same tires
as the works time. Yeah, that was Goward in in 99.
Obviously I people don't remember.
I won 250 grand for first private tier winning a race for
a long time and before that we'd never been allowed the same
tires as the factory teams. But so and Goward insured
against this happening, but he what he'd failed to tell the
insurance company was he was changing the regulations that
we'd have the same tyres and we won the first round and they
weren't happy. I can.
Imagine. They weren't happy at all.
Oh, I bet that felt good. I bet that felt good.
Well, I. We ran because Nissan, we ran
with Nissan in Bathurst in 98. They let us have a sort of a
bits of a car out of an enemy Miss Motor Sport Europe and we
were allowed to run the factory tyres down there and really had
left at the end of 98 to go to Ford.
And Alec Paul who was the head of Miss Motor Sport Europe, he
was proper smarting about it because really was was the
fastest driver. You know, he had been the
fastest driver to that point and he just had the edge over David
Leslie and I went to to Alec and I went mate, don't worry.
The car's good because I tried these.
I we ran on these tyres and I went mate, there's these, these
type this, the car's mega tyres mega.
So don't worry, don't worry. You're losing Reed you, you've
got a good package. That's when I threw my cap in
the ring to try and get the drive that ILO got.
And now that one I I threw my cap in the head because they
they were the standard wage for a Nissan driver.
There's a lot of drivers. Nissan, the standard right wage
was 300 grand back then. You're talking 25 years ago.
And I, I went to Alec and I said, I'll tell you what, I'm so
confident in my ability and what I can do and I can win.
I will drive for you for nothing or I'll give you my wage.
And he ended up signing Laurent ILO for 750 grand.
And I went back to my dad. I said I can't understand it,
why he done that. He said because if he signs
Laurent for that money and Lauren fucks up, it is Lauren's
problem. If he signs you for nothing and
you fuck up, it's his problem. And I get that.
I, I got it. I got it and I didn't like it,
but I got it, you know, so. And Lauren did win for him so.
Matt, just to go back a little bit, so in 93, obviously that
was your first independent championship and obviously you
have to see, I think Carney is cavalier for that as well.
Was that like really a joyous, obviously would have been a
joyous moment, but how did that feel for you?
Like to actually do it to prove it on that stage thing, right?
I'm here, I'm Matt Neil and I'm here today.
Was it a really momentous occasion for you?
I'd like to say yes, but I always thought they, rightly or
wrongly, that the, the independence thing is, is sort
of a second class citizen. And I, I did it and I, I got it
and I embraced it and everything.
But I did think, yeah, yeah. Which is where I always got into
trouble later on in my in the in my career in touring cars
because, yes, we would be going for privateer wins, but not I'd
go right. What do you want me to go for?
Do you want me to get this high up at the ladder as we can or do
you want me to just sit back? And, you know, we're happy that
we're 15th and beating the guys behind us.
And I was never happy because I I went into touring cars because
I wanted to drive against the best.
I wanted to try and beat the best and see how good I was.
Yeah, it was great winning the Pro Tears, but it was a bit of a
it's. Almost our job done.
Take the box off and then now give me a works drive.
I'm here. It wasn't a hollow victory.
It was, it was just like, yeah, OK, that's great, but that's not
what I'm after. Even back then, that's, yeah,
even back then that was relevant, That was prevalent in
your mind then. You know, I'm, I'm aiming for
higher than that. That's that's interesting.
You know, because you're so dictated by the equipment you've
got. And then, you know, when I
suddenly started qualifying at the front, I remember David
Leslie coming up to me again. Oh, you have to be careful now.
It's a lot tougher at this end of the grid.
It was easy it. Was easier because you're not
in. The middle of people's space,
Yeah. In the in the in the middle of
the grid, it's. Horrible.
It's like. Spinnacle fist fighting yeah,
yeah, it's it's horrendous getting involved in someone
else's accident yeah, yeah, it's at least you can drive your own
race and people can normally give people, you know, each
other space and everything you're sure that all the cameras
are on you, but. So you must have thought then
that, I mean you've already touched on it, the Mazda move,
but you moved there in 94. But there were at the start of
the year there were all these rumours of IMG and Noel Edmonds
and Crinkly Bottom and Mr. Blobby and David Coulthard.
I'm not calling David Coulthard Mr. Blobby there, but I mean,
how close was all that to fruition?
It never happened, but some some tale, some tell the story that
it was very close. That was 99% done.
That. Deal.
It's crazy. Well, Mr. Blobby was just a buzz
thing at the time, wasn't it? And no.
Yeah, behind it. And I I Ng or INGI can't
remember. The IMG was IMG.
Yeah, IMG, they were, were pushing DC, the Mazda and I'd
signed because I had some, some personal sponsorship I was
bringing with me, which I've managed to carry over.
So I, I, I came as a package and that was good.
And they were pushing DC to partner me and it was all the
thing. And then Mazda went no, because
he'd had three tough years in, in F3000.
And I said, no, we want a proven touring car, you know,
protagonist, which was David Leslie.
And so they said we'll go with David.
I think it was the best, it was the luckiest escape DC ever in
his life because, you know, it it they they managed to get him
into a test drive with Williams. And then Senna was Senna was
killed a year later and he was, he was up and away or that.
Yeah, wasn't he so? Yes, it was.
Then he went on to an amazing F1 career, so I think it was the
luckiest of his racing career because me and David got put
down the dungeon in the Mazda for a for a year.
On on the note of that, Master, if you say it wasn't the most
competitive car in the world, which I'm guessing if you sort
of already touched on, was probably a little bit of a shock
given how or Patrick had done the year before in that lovely
liveries beast in 93 it. Was very close to Mr. Blobby
that car actually the purple and yellow.
And then unfortunately, I did a big shot at Silverstone and that
was you out for the rest of the season.
I mean, how bad was that shunt and your injuries following that
crash? Yeah, the IT.
Was a proper shunt, wasn't it? It was quite a big shunt.
Is is two or three weeks before that we were racing at
Snatterton and I remember it well because it was the same
weekend and Senna was killed and I was in qualifying and I rolled
it at the first corner into there's farmers fields all
around Snatterton. And that year they were growing
potatoes in on the exit of Term 1.
And I can remember because when I'm lying in the the furrows, I
rolled in qualifying and I'm upside down in the car waiting
for Marshalls to come because you're a long way off in the
furrows, so you can't. So you're in the furrows, the,
the, the, the plowed furrows. So you can't get the door open.
And the fuel pumps are racing as well.
And so I'm panicking. If thing catches fire, I'm stuck
in there. And you know, because you sat on
the roof and that was quite a scary time for me.
And anyway, I always used to have a lucky pair of of
underpants and if it was a really hot like that was a hot
weekend, so we now they check you.
But if it was a really hot weekend, I never used to.
I used to wear my fireproof top, but not the the the long Johns
and my sister had bought me years before.
It's a Christmas present, a pair of boxer shorts which are flesh
coloured with stocking suspenders on them as a bit of a
party joke. Anyway, I'd I'd, I'd wear I'd
bought. I'm really, I'm annoyingly
superstitious and I'd worn these and I'd had a couple of good
results in them. So these have become my lucky
underpants. So I was wearing these anyway,
they got me out of the car and all the rest of it off to the
Med centre and these nurses and they strip you down to your
waist and they check out your and all these nurses around me
and they'll go, right, let's strip you all off and we'll just
check you out. And I went, no, no, I don't
think that's a good idea. And they went, no, it's all
right, we're all grown up here, we're OK.
I went, no, no, seriously, because these things have become
so threadbare. All the block and tackle is
would anger at the bottom. Like there was no boxes to the
boxes. And I had to go into the store
and explain to them why. And they said, OK, we get it,
we'll let you keep your bottles off.
Anyway, I was wearing these lucky lucky boxes at Silverstone
two or three weeks later when I got tipped over and barrel
rolled down to maggots. So was that the last time you
wore the boxer shorts? I took the fuckers off.
I threw them in the. I had a funny feeling we're
going to say that. But you know something, you know
something in hindsight, because I'm superstitious.
I walked away from the accident. So did they do their job?
Yes, they did, yeah. And do you look a bit like that?
So now anyway, I've got another pair of like you should pants
down and socks and tops and everything.
So I'm, I'm annoyingly superstitious like that.
I can't even remember where you started.
But the question was but I, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. How were?
You, I was all right. I was, I was Apparently you've
got cartilage in when you represent everything I told
that's all that. So I was, I was in a bad way.
I couldn't get out of bed for no, I'm not brilliant at getting
out of bed, but I couldn't get out of bed for a few weeks
afterwards. It was, I was pretty sore, but
we got out for the last race of the season, so I wouldn't have
been able to race anyway. The car was a ball of scrap and
Mazda didn't. The budget was so tight, you
know, for them back then, they didn't have the money to repair
it because it literally was a ball of scrap.
The only thing salvageable on the car was the the dash.
Everything was buggered. So yeah, they managed and they
managed to get a, we got a bit of sponsorship together again
and we, they built A323 for the end of the season.
But it was, it was overweight and it was heavy and it was, it
was got out for the World Cup with Mazda, but it was, you're
making up the numbers really. And on the wrong tire again.
Hey guys, it's Matt Clawson, your host of the All Automotive
Podcast. I've been in the automotive
industry for over 30 years. I've owned my own repair shop
for the last 15 years. I was going to write a book, but
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In 95 then Matt, it was your turn back with Dynamics.
Yeah, that seems to be a good year for you, Carl.
Yeah, it's it's amazing the way life takes you, isn't it?
Because I thought I got there's probably a half a dozen points
in my career. I thought it was all over and
forget it. And you know, it's just it ain't
going to happen again. And then we managed to find get
some money together and we found Graph Racing.
It got this X Rayas Mondeo for sale and literally I was with
with Barry, who's been my engineer for a long time, 20-30
years. And we found out and it was in.
So we drove down to France to see Graf racing and he'd been
racing in the French championship, which wasn't the
competitiveness of the the British series.
We went down and literally it was three weeks before the first
race. Managed to do a deal and we got
a trailer and we'd stuck on trailer and we brought it back.
Didn't know how good it was and we worked on it.
And again, it was, it was a, it was a time where ties were
critical. And in 93 Mitch, the Michelin
factory and 94 Michelin was the weapon of choice.
It was they they they're not a good qualifier because it was
qualified. It was unlimited ties then
that's. Right.
Yeah. And But Mitchelin was the weapon
of choice anyway. There was a there was a an
uproar at the the World Cup in 94 that one of the tyres got
nicked off, stolen from Nissan at the back of the pits, one of
the Michelin tyres. And now what do they reckon TBR
nicked it? And then because they were
running on Dunlops next year and they anyway, the local Bobby,
because Nissan reported this, the local Bobby had an interview
with, with the can't remember his name, Pascal, the head of
Michelin Motorsport. And he's right in his notes.
He goes right, can I take the the value of this tie which he
claims been sold and he gives, yes, it is 1,000,000 francs.
These local crime figures. He spits his tea out.
The local crime figures gone through the roof and he said
that that is his development in it.
Anyway, suddenly for 95, we'd signed the Dunlop for 95 and
Dunlop, we're on it. They had a good race tie and
they had a exceptional qualifier entire.
And so there was only us and the Volvos on, on this tyre and it
was mega. And so we could, we could
qualify high up and we could race high up.
And it was suddenly it was like, wow, how good is this?
I. Mean the qualifying ties, the
qualifying. I can't, I cannot tell you the
grip of those. If you'd use them at Thruxton,
you would have to go so slow on your Outlier ran to the chicane
just before the chicane. You you hit it and then it's
essentially like ground effects. And then one lap and you get to
the last corner and you'd be touch and go whether the tyres
were still in. So when you hit the brakes for
the chicane on the end of that one lap, it was 5050, whether
the tyres were still in and you make finished up.
One lap the tyres were done and you throw them away.
Factory team back then, two cars, you'd use 200 tyres a
weekend. Is it independent?
We use 80. Trying to be frugal.
Yeah, that. That's frugal.
Wow. That's a That's a lot.
That's a lot for an independence, isn't?
It, of course, yeah. I mean, our budgets were going
through the roof, but it was, yeah.
I guess the idea that Dunlop probably liked was you beating
the Michelin works teams in qualifying then and saying look,
you know, look what the Dunlops can do.
Well, the the, the thing for us was the the Ralphs factory four
team was running on Michelins. Yeah, so they loved it.
Yeah. And which which was the same in
Nissan in 9899, NMA used to use us because RML ran on, you know,
they ran with the factory engines and all the rest of it.
They used to us use us with another engine manufacturer
which was IES, Graham, Dell Jones and Dave Hill, who are
really good guys. And they used to use us just to
almost poke RML with. These guys can do this, you
know, What are you doing? It's it's, it's politics, isn't
that? Heading into 96 then and as a
team, dynamics turned to their hands to build in their own
Super Torah, especially after the success of 95.
What made the team decide to go down that route?
Because it turned into quite a tough year with a tough car,
didn't it? 96 wasn't a good year.
I think with the success we'd had, Razz's contract was up and
so forward. We're looking to place a new
deal and so we, we threw a cap into it as did Shubal, as did W
Surrey. And they were getting it was it
was getting pretty advanced. Then you know, they they were
tucking the engines. Volvo broke ground with how much
they took the engines back in down inside with with more
control what we demanded off the guys and the forward back then
it was going to run the drivetrain through the V of the
V6, it was going to be that low. Yeah.
And so we'd done a design and Shuba done a design.
Anyway, we lost the deal, I can't remember why, whatever
reason. And so we were so committed down
the line with sponsors, everything we said we'd go that
way anyway. So it was us V Shuba Cars and W
Surrey. W Surrey won the deal to when
the British run the British factory team.
But what they did back then is they supplied, they didn't,
they'd only done F3 at the time. And so they basically gave Ford
an F3 budget, which was 1/4 of a touring car budget.
So they get 1/4 of the way, they get 2 races in and they go over
and out of one, you know, And so the problem is Ford are
committed to that point. So they go, oh shit, a bunch of
videos now we've got to prop you up.
And but then that was the cattle.
They're off, they're already in. But the Ford we, we, we did one,
we were on the wrong tire again because we got back put back.
We were off at the factory thing and the car was, was our work.
I mean, I kissed the ground. We got to the last race and I
kissed it. I got out and I kissed the
ground because I never got to give it back in that looking
thing ever again. And so that's that was a tough
year for you then that obviously we know that and you.
Just that was a real that was. But you know what I say to young
drivers now? I mean young drivers, because
with everything now with equality and all the rest of it,
it was, it was, it was such a period of innovation.
So you're trying really wacky things with the BMWs.
We're trying variable lengths, trumpets, you know, all that on
the engines and everything. And it was, it was real period
of innovation, ingenuity and thinking outside the box.
When the rules they say now, if it doesn't say you can do it,
that means you can't do it, which is wrong because then,
yeah, yeah, it doesn't take technology forward.
But yeah, it, it just, it was, it was a horrible year.
I said to young drivers, sometimes if you're in a tough
car in tough times, a calm sea doesn't make a skilled sailor.
And that means if you're having a tough time, you're fit.
If you can get through the year and and still, you know, keep
your wits about you, you'll be a better, stronger person for it.
It's, it's what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, doesn't it?
I think because. You just learned tough years and
those mid 90s. I had some tough years and, but
I think that really that's that laid a lot of the foundations I
drew upon, you know, for when I was going for championships and
developing cars in the in the noughties and, and going forward
from there. So.
It was obviously 97 and then that saw Dynamics build your own
car. This time is the second
generation of the Mondea. So despite a bit more success
than the previous one in 96, which you said, obviously it was
a bit of a disaster, you ended up swapping to the Premiera
halfway through. So what was the reason for the
change? Was you just grasping that
opportunity? Or you could?
The car was still hard work and we were still on the wrong tyre.
And then Alec Paul, who was the head of Nissan Motors for
Europe, was an old mate to my dad back from the 60s and he, he
offered us a deal. I think they valued the, the
independence back then and they offered us a car.
As far as I was going, it couldn't be worse than that.
One day I was in. So I just, I went, yeah, I went
for it and and it was, it was good.
It was a good car, the same as the 97 car.
It was pretty quick, but it was unreliable.
You know, they would brake all the time.
That was the Achilles heel of them in 96.
The back end in 96 and 97 that was was pretty fast, but it was
and we still don't weren't on the right time, but it was still
pretty quick, but it would break.
That was the problem. Right.
And then obviously you've stayed with the Premier, then into 98
and then for me and many others, that's the year that you really
started coming to the attention of everyone because you were
running further and further towards the front.
You were often in the top 6IN races, but you've often then
found yourself in scrapes and ended up coming off worst on a
fair number of occasions. Was that because you're an
independent A? 100% you've got, you know,
you've got to get in your box and I thought you're going to
say we sort of came to the fore because we had Max power
sponsorship starting in 98. Yeah.
Those are some good days, Yeah. But with the drivers, yeah.
You've got Johnny Dicotto, Roberto Raglia, Frank Baylor,
You, you've got some pretty heavy international hitters.
And some of them were, were OK. Some of them were absolute
asses. And you had to put yourself I,
I, I knew I had to put myself in a situation where we'd both go
off and suddenly they go, they call you a twit or whatever or
whatever they're going to call you.
They call me a lot worse than that.
But then they suddenly go, I need to leave them space or give
them respect. And then you could raise it.
But it took, it took a long time, but they were prepared to
trash, you know, the old Senna thing.
He's prepared to crack. You decide whether we're going
to crash. So I went, I'm not backing out
of this when I think and we both crashed and but then slowly
they, they, they, they gave me the respect and I won the
respects, you know, going forwards.
But it was, it was a tough year in that respect.
My, my approach with it. Never give it out what you're
not prepared to get back. I think one of the David Leslie
was a champion that should have been, but he always used to give
it out too freely. And then people would, you know,
you've got Gabrielle Taquini and, and those others they'd
remember for 3-4 years ahead. And they go and they get him
back and they go at the critical time and they're, that was for
them. And but then on the flip side,
you've got people like Robo now you know who's who's a lovely
lad, talented lad. He's fast.
But when he was racing for dynamics, I had to dig at him.
I went who won the, who won the grid?
Don't you get on with, he goes, Oh no, I'll get on with
everybody. There's your problem.
Because I was always falling out with someone.
I don't want to because I want to get on with everybody.
But I was always because, because, because competition
breeds conflict breeds breeds animosity and all the rest of
it. And I was always falling out
with someone And Dan was almost too nice.
He's got the, he's got the capability to do it.
But I was always, I was critical.
You got to, you got to kill a bit nasty.
And, you know, people who make it aren't, aren't necessarily
nice, nice people. We had Leron Aiello on the show
a couple of weeks ago and he met John Cleland at Brands for Super
Touring Power a couple of months ago and it was the first time
they'd ever spoken. I mean, they raced in the same
championship for a year. And he said I didn't really
speak to anyone. They were all rivals.
They were all people I was fighting against.
They weren't friends. We weren't there to be friends.
I was there to beat them. And it was a really interesting
sort of way of seeing it that, you know, he he'd raced in the
championship for a whole year with someone and had hardly
spoken to him. So yeah, it's it's an
interesting way of. Thinking that's, that's, that's
the same as it is now, you know, if I had to say as a driver, the
the touring car paddock, can it can be, it's toxic, you know,
because people you get on, you smile and everything, but it's
all crocodile smiles, which which was why do I like classic
racing now? Because people smile at you and
they're nice to you and they're genuine because because their
livelihoods don't depend on it. Should they want to win and
should they want to try and get one over on you, But it's not,
it's not, it's not brutal racing, which which touring cars
is win at almost any cost. But you.
Yeah, because. Because you're fighting for
careers, aren't you? You're trying to make a name for
yourself. Livelihood.
Your livelihood. When I was juvenali was my
teammate, you know, if I was quicker than in qualifying, he'd
be angry as hell. Yeah, it's his breakfast.
Like, like he wouldn't be happy, you know, next time, but.
Once the helmets on, you're not proper mates, you can't be.
Especially ready you can talk to him like anybody and then as
soon as he puts his helmets on he's an idiot.
So also talking on the subject of of 98, then bring it back to
that. Of course, that was the year of
arguably and I think of yeah, a few of us on the podcast shares
opinion the greatest touring car rates of all time at Donington
with a certain Nigel Mansell in appearance.
Was that a pinch yourself moment, racing against arguably
the most, well, at that time, probably the most famous driver
in the country? It was a bit surreal.
I mean, I remember coming down the back straight with him and
there was Nigel and there was John and there was Cleland and,
you know, all sorts of surround and it's pouring rain.
So it was horrible conditions. And we're side by side going
down the straight to the the chicane at Donington.
And I looked across and he just gives me a wave through the
through the window. And I thought, how cool is that
like this? And anyway, he did make the Ford
was, I mean, he drove in, you know, he drove out of his, his,
his skin that day sort of came into his own.
And it would have been sort of a bit of a fairy tale if he had
one. But clan had other ideas.
It must. Have been really surreal, like
someone is iconic as Nigel. He was because I grew up and he
was. He was a hero for me before he
won. The campaign.
You know, because he was a scrapper, he was a brummy and he
was a scrapper. And I think one of the things
which is, which is in all forms of racing now is back then you
had to do your dues and work your way up the ladder to learn
your craft because there was no data.
You know, Adam, if Adam was was quicker than me, if he didn't
tell me how he was doing it, then I had to go out and try and
follow him and he'd pull over and he wouldn't let me follow
him. And you've got to, you've got to
work with if I'm a second off the pace, I've got to try and
figure it out myself. There's no I can't study his
data and go, oh, he's breaking 5 meters later there he's on
carrying more mid corner speed at six and blah blah blah.
It's almost it's monkey seat. I love data.
I love the the technology side of it, but it it has made it's
an evil thing because it's made monkey see, monkey do.
So the youngsters can come in and they can fast track in
straight away just by like a video game when back then you
had to learn your craft and and why the old drivers are
sometimes better at developing things because they it's the
seat of the pants, because the engineer would come back.
OK, what's it doing? Because they there's no data for
them to follow or watch or, or or film or, you know, the TV was
post a week. So you'd see that's a week
later. So if we went to Paul Ricker
after the World Cup, you hadn't seen the circuit before.
You hadn't got a SIM. You haven't got YouTube.
So watch some laps transit. You've got nothing.
You go or was the left or right coming up?
You'd look literally you've got a map on the dash.
With the technology, obviously you were one of the few drivers
that were in the championship sort of really throughout that
period seeing how that technology developed.
I mean, did you find as you had a preference of the the earlier
cars with less aero and bit more raw or did you, did you enjoy
the cars they just got faster and faster?
Was it a natural progression with the Technology Fury, or did
you find that it was progressively like kind of
having to learn new and new things constantly?
Now as a, as a now I look back, probably the most fun cars were
the original 92 cars because they were, they were, they were
raw. They were, you know, like when
we, we've raced historics, OK, we're on a period of tyres now,
Dunlop tyres, but the most, the closest thing to an original M3,
you know, which we started with in 9192, where we ended up was
completely different kettle of fish.
But as a driver, you loved it every year.
You just, you were so excited on what you were going to come with
and, and get with, with the tyres and the, the aero and
everything, because they were so reliant on the aero back then,
though, that what they were doing with the development and
everything and the diff technology, you know, because
the plated diffs had better traction out the corners, the,
the viscous diffs had better braking.
So then extract and then Hulen came up with combination diffs.
So you had the braking so you could break right through to the
apex and they're really aggressive.
It was just, and the cars were light and nimble.
You know, the cars were 975 kilos.
Now they're 1300 kilos. You're always 1/3 of a ton
heavier. And so it's just, it's, it
changes the way you can, you can drive them.
It's it's a tough, tough thing with all the hybrids they've got
on on the things now. So back to 98, Matt.
So that was the year you unfortunately you lost the Auto
Sport Cup to Rostad. Tommy, yeah, I think he was
just. I think 1.
He was quick. No, he's quick.
I think he's running for DC Cook, wasn't he?
And in the Reno. And it was a good package and
Tommy was quick. He's a handy lad and I think
certain circuits he had their job in other ziad edge on him.
I was hoping we were going to happen through the year but just
couldn't quite do it unfortunately, even though we
had Max power sponsorship. Talking of Max power, I mean
that whole era of Max power and lads and 90s are you you single
handedly made Nissan's cool. Didn't.
You, the amount of people who've come to me and said I bought a
Ferreera, I thought, well, really, But it's that actually
sets us up with the business model.
We came up with a business model then and we went to Max Power
and we got, they came up with a sponsorship because they saw it,
because BTC was just on the, on the massive up then, you know,
with the crowds and the TV and all the rest of it.
And they saw it and they got it and we we talked them into it.
But then what we did is we went to all their suppliers.
Not suppliers, they're advertisers, because everybody
wanted to be endorsed by Max Power and they'd have four or
five ICE, you know, suppliers or manufacturers, brands, their
tyre brands, whatever runs car care products.
And we went to each one. It was almost the highest bidder
and we got them. We built the budget up that way
and we built a good budget and we run that.
But it ran for a few good years until sort of the Max Power
thing ran out or the Super Touring thing ran out.
And then we almost turned it on its head with the Halfords later
on in 10 years later where we went to suppliers rather than
advertisers and we use that same business bottle back, you know,
again, for the next 15 years. Really.
Yeah. Of course.
Yeah, I thought it like that. But yeah, the whole the whole
look of a touring car pretty much was how everyone wanted
their Rd. going. Primera escort focus, whatever,
you know, the, the low profile, the, the, the middle wiper.
It's, it's, it's it created a whole generation of fans in that
way as well, didn't it? It was, it was a really, really
funnier to be, to be around. You know, and jokes apart, we
had a lot of fun along the along the way.
Poor old Shaky Burn. He got vitrified for spraying
champagne of a girl's skirt on the podium.
BSB podium, you know, which someone dug out a couple of
years ago, someone dug out a video from 1015 years ago and,
and I saw him a month afterwards and I said, where did they get
that from? He says, I have no idea.
But then Eurosport onto him, ITV or onto him and saying, right,
you've got to do this name and shame.
I suck my balls. You know, sort of video that
where you throw yourself on the on the sword and before they
sack him and I went, I went, Oh my God, that's you know what I
thought my first thing in mind. Thank God they didn't have that
back in Max paradise, you know, mobile phones, videos and
everything, because anything went.
But everyone's having good. Like Shaky said with that thing
on the podium with the girls, the girls were queuing up.
They loved it. You know, it's easy to say they
loved it, but they were queuing up.
They're going, oh, me, me, me, me, me.
You'd like going up there. So and Shaky's the most lovely
bloke, family going bloke. It's just going with the flow of
what the crowds want and what's fun and all the rest of it.
But what's fun, it's not fun anymore unfortunately.
Yeah, that's, but we did have some good times.
In between 98 and 99 now then, and it's something you've
touched on already, but your adventure to Australia and for
the back first 1000 with Steve Richards nearly winning the race
that year, that must have been kind of a bucket list moment to
to race in, you know, one of the the most unique and most famous
touring car races of all that. Yeah.
You know when you're in it, you don't say it's a bucket list
thing or whatever or I don't because I'm so nervous about
messing it up and doing the drug and it is a pressure thing over
there. It's, I got, I got set down
there in 90 at the end of 97 as a bit of a reward for what we've
done in 97. And I went, Stevie Richards was
driving for Gary Rogers Motorsport down there and they
had an old, old Nissan, 96 spec Nissan.
And I drove with him and the car broke down and it was, it was,
it was tough. And we were sort of midfield in
97 and then in 98 suddenly all the manufacturers got behind is
it was a big thing. All the manufacturers are going
on there. You've got Vauxhall going on
there, which which was hold on, you've got Peugeot, you've got
Honda, you got Volvo were going down there big time, BMW, Audi,
they're all going down there. And RML were so focused on 99
and getting it right that they didn't want to, they didn't want
to go there, the test program and everything.
And this seemed quite fancy. They knew they had a fast car
and they said they wanted to go, but they, you know, they didn't
have a massive budget. And so they held it at an old
test tack at NMA and Didcot, which was in pieces.
So they said, you know, Alec Paul again, was, was talking
about that and he said, well, we could scrape a bit of budget
together and we can do this and we can do that and we can go
down there and but you know, it's going to be, you know, we
know the car's fast, but we don't know how we're going to
go. And the opposition's high.
And so we, we threw all this stuff in a 40 foot container, my
98 car, which was the 97 car because we always ran with a
year old kit. And this, this test hack which
hadn't run from the beginning of the year in pieces.
We threw it all in the container and literally it got there.
We got there on the Monday before the race and they started
building this car and they finished, they did 2 all night
as they finished the night before the 1st free practice on
the Thursday. And the engines had had, you
know, the longest an engine had lasted was 600K all year because
the engines we used to use 800 a year back then as an independent
because they're so fragile. And so they, you know, they were
saying to us, Alec Paul flew down and he said, look, if you
can just qualify somewhere near the front, we'll be chuffed to
bits. And then we call it Stevie
Richards stuck on the front row Mega.
I mean, Ricard pulled out a blinding lap.
And. They then he came to us on the
grid and said, look lads, if you can just run up the front for a
little bit, you know it'll be because we weren't going to
finish. It'll be like jobs done.
And then so we ended up running up the front and then we LED it
halfway and then we were sort of scrapping off way.
And by the end we're running nose to tail with with Ricard at
the end. And I'm in the car and I get
this radio hit, the bastard. I'll be him off.
Because like. Suddenly they're there's some
things they change all along and then they're so pissed off.
My dad and Alec Paul were so pissed off we'd lost, but it was
the closest up. I think we finished second by
1/2 seconds that yeah, yeah, I think for me, you know, for me,
of all championships I've won and 99 the win and all the rest
of it. I reckon that was one of the
best races of my life. And I do put that down because
that was a that was a a monumental we finished.
We actually because we pitted early earlier than we should.
So all the other teams are going they're going to run out of
fuel. And you know, we knew we were
pushing the Volvo hard all the way.
We knew that their oil light was on and we were on back when I
finished. We're on back literally on metal
to metal on the on the on the pads and all the other teams are
going they're going to run out of fuel.
I ever ran out of fuel 100 meters after the finish line and
if you don't make it back to part firm A, which is straight,
you don't do a full lap, you come straight in after term 1,
you don't get classified. So to be fair to John Clinton,
figured this in the Holden or Vauxhall as it was, and he can
be, I ran out of petrol just as I got to turn 1 after crossing
the finish line and he got it behind me and pushed me all the
way to part firm A so I'd be classified as a finisher.
And we finished second. So, yeah.
And then, then because we were allowed to keep the engines
running in the pit stops, they put some petrol in it, tried to
fire it again and all the valve clearances closed up.
So if it had ever stalled in the pit stop, we would never restart
it again. So it was a, it was a perfect
storm. So I, I take it as a, as a, as a
mega, you know, mega result rather than a loss really.
Yeah, absolutely. Matt, one question I've got for
you is as an independent race in the BTCC, what was like an
approximate budget for you? Because I know we talk about
copious amounts of tyres, 8 engines, you know, the cars
would have been expensive to purchase obviously.
But what, what would that, what would it look like?
What would a typical budget look like for you running a Nissan?
I think when we started in in with the M threes, a good budget
was 60 to 80 grand, early 90s. By the time we finished in 99,
the budget was probably 700 and you had to do it.
You know, we'd be using, you know, 80 ties a weekend.
The engines were, were fragile as hell.
You know, it's just you've got magnesium uprights, gearboxes,
you know, just, you know, some of the the teams are now they've
got one person up per car. We had two full time people and
a part time person, no three to full time people on the on one
car just trying to get together as a little independent so and.
You're comparing that to also the manufacturers that were
millions. You know, you look at the, the,
the salaries alone budget, you know, for the likes, you know
that, you know, Matt's, Matt's budget for his car was the same
as what Lauren was getting paid. And yeah, that's not counting
the car, is it? You know, well, missing under
the reckon missing in 99 was it was just north of 10 million.
Yeah, wow, Vauxhall shortchanged them and this because they only
spent seven. But then in in in 2000, they
reckon Ford got up to something like it was 12 or 13 million.
Yeah, three cars. Yeah, but.
Wow, it's bonkers, isn't it? Absolutely bonkers.
Just read his wages. So in 99 then there was a
possible move to Nissan to replace Reedy then yes,
obviously turning it down involved stay with dynamics.
What was that whole? Obviously we hear lots of
different things and let's hear from the let's hear about the
horse's mouth. Come on.
We'd, we'd, we'd, we'd obviously had a mega result at Bathurst in
in at the end of 98. Ran on the proper tyre then.
So we were getting that spec car.
We were getting a 98 spec car for 99 and which was a it was a
multi link suspension. When the factory cars were going
to have to go keep up with the the relegation.
They were going to have to go B Maxwell, which ended up to be
pretty trick. But the multi link was was
already better. So we tested it pre season.
It was the new controlled tower and we used to go down to Alba
City for a week before and every year.
And we had a mega test down there.
And I think we had Paul Morris over for from Australia because
he'd run so well in the Audis and the BMW's down there.
And then I got this call from Volvo, literally I think I was
in in Alba City with the with the Nissan.
And they said, oh, we'd like you to come and partner Ricard or
interested in new partner Ricard.
We got a test of the ref. It was a week after I got back
from Alba City. And I said, yeah, OK, great, you
know, for that. So then we left the Nissan.
The Nissan had a great front end on it.
I like a good front end on, on the car.
And I had a good engine. You know, we tested, I won the
championship in 98. So it was the championship when
he carved it was it was it was a plum drive, Waukesha Racing.
And so we went into a ref, Rico went out, smashed the time in
and I jumped in the car and I struggled.
I really struggled in it. It was a really pushy
understeery car, which Ricard was was just demon at getting a
time out of. I remember coming into the pits
on 22 seconds off him and they all, you know, the engineers
going right. You want to change?
I went, I want to use chain. I think go know the Carl as it
is now. We'll do the time.
It's up to me to figure it out and work it out how Ricard is
driving it. And to be fair to myself, by the
end of the day I got pretty close to him.
And then they rang me up a couple of days later and they
said I think it was between me and Vincent Rademacher.
And they said, oh, we'd be interested in you.
And then Paul Morris's sat sat in front of me because he knew
he knew about this. And they'd lined him up for the
Dynamics Dr. And, and I couldn't believe I saw on the phone there
was Andy King and he rang me and he said, what do you want to do?
And there were commercials involved and all the rest of it.
I went, I want to stay with the Nissan, you know, and yeah, I
fought so hard, so long to try and get that drive.
And in the end, because I could see the potential in the Nissan.
Yeah. Six weeks later I'm, I'm SAT on
the grid and he actually went 1/4 of £1,000,000.
So it was, yeah, I couldn't believe I said it when I did it
and Paul was just spitting. But he went back and had a good,
good run in V eights. But it was probably the best
negative decision I've made in my life, you know, with
propelling what you know I've done in my career and one of the
biggest, biggest points in my career six weeks later.
Yeah. And sort of moving on to that,
at Donington season opener, you get on pole in the feature race,
you're in the lead. And then obviously the feature
race, the part of the feature race at the time in the era,
there was compulsory pit stops. And I'm sorry, we're going to
have to go there. But you pulled into the pits and
it's stalled. You stole the coming out of the
pits, didn't you? And I can't even imagine what
your what was going through your mind at the time when that
happened. Your heart sank.
Well, in race one, I got stuck behind David Leslie and I just
thought I couldn't have a go at him cleanly.
And you've got, you've got to be respectful.
So I messed that up a bit. And so we we got pole for race
2. The one, the one thing back then
which people might not be aware of is you had so many, it was
like 16 tires, but you had a choice between soft, medium and
hard. And so, and you could have any
combination of, of the, of, of those.
So we used to have so, so many softs, so many medium and so
many hard. The softs obviously you want for
qualifying and the hard you want for the race.
And the medium is sort of somewhere in between.
So you used to qualify on three and you could you could mix them
all up. Yeah.
You could have softs on the front or softs on a rear and
stuff. Yeah, yeah, you'd have 3 softs
and a medium on your right rear. So you've got to be careful down
Craner. And then for the race you'd
have, we'd have two hards on the front, a medium on your left
rear and a soft on your right rear.
And you've got, again, you've got to be careful.
Dan Craner. Now you got people like Jimmy T
in the Honda. We knew they used to go balls
out, so they used to go soft to medium.
So they'd be ultra fast in the in qualifying and they'd look at
breaking the back of you in, in early in the race, but then
they'd be screwed later on in the race.
So we were always going for the long game and so I'm I'm all
right, I'm I'm sitting pretty in in, in in the race.
The Nissan was a bastard for stalling and then it was a pig
for restarting as well. So when it stalled, I thought,
fuck it, it's all over. Somehow it re fired.
It fired straight away. But then we went down to 5th.
I went shit, it's all over. But then we're on a really good
tire combo, which the others weren't a lot of the others
weren't for the for the last quarter of the race.
It was a tire comic. It's it's the long term strategy
because we knew we had speed in the car anyway, that's why it
came to us. And I knew I was going to have
Jimmy in the end. I was a bit sort of eager to get
past him, you know, and I was lucky with the vans bonnet
coming up and all the rest of it.
But so there's a there's a few lucky balls we got served along
the way. Yes, it was.
Yeah, because there was what there was one attempted move
with Jimmy that you you made a little bit of contact and your
front wing was flapping. And I remember at the time, but
watching back as I was at the race and watching back and
Charlie and John Watson were saying or could he get called in
over that, you know, because it's flapping away.
It wasn't, but it just held on and and obviously, yeah, that's
that was another bit of luck that you had that day.
Well, yeah, I, I, I tried to throw it down the inside into
Maclean's and Jimmy turned in and we had a bit of contact and
I, I could have got him, but I thought, no, because I'll get
pinged for it. So I've backed off.
And then I thought we could have them again.
So, but it was we got speed in the car at the end, so that was
all right. But it was, it was, it was
really surreal. The, it's one of the few times
I've come down the pit lane and everybody was at every garage.
That pit wall was just absolutely packed.
It's just, it's a bit of an ad of a body moment.
You can't believe it's you. And it's quite a surreal thing
because I went home on the night and you know, the next, it
doesn't change. I just went to the pub and had
some friends and went. How cool is that?
And then the guy in The Who owned the pub always went, what
are you doing it? And he wants to replay it.
I've just seen that. Chill out.
But then, you know, the next morning, because Richard Tate
Harris was doing all the PR then and sponsorship.
I mean, we used to sort of share an office together.
And I got in the next morning with a bit of a hangover.
And he's on the phone to some radio station in Australia
going, Oh yeah, yeah, we've done this and blah, blah, blah, all
rest of it. And it was, it was the biggest
surreal moment for me because it was almost a massive anticlimax
because for 10 years or my whole life, that's all I'd aspired
for, to win a race and do it and everything.
And we'd won this massive prize. And I walked in the next
morning. I thought, has it changed me as
a person? I thought, no, it doesn't.
No better person for it. Yeah, I've got, we've done it
and we've won the cash and everything.
But it was a real anti climax, a real let down for me the next
day. And it's where I it's why I now
admire drivers like sort of Lewis and Hamilton and Sebastian
Vettel. And OK, they're getting paid 10s
of millions for the for the job, but to keep the motivation they
have. Because at that point I had to
pick myself up and go shake yourself down, right?
We'll now look to the next race and what we're doing.
And I'm still hungry because I thought it hasn't changed.
I'm no better person for doing it.
And it was because I'm, I do like to keep my feet on the
ground as a, as a real working class person.
And so it was, yeah, it was a real, it was a real surreal
moment for me. Yeah, OK.
The the one memory of as I said just now, I was, I was there and
along with many other people who I'm sure I've told you over the
years, I was there when that happened.
I was there. The noise from the crowd when
you overtook James the second time and made the move stick, I
can still hear now. It's one of the loudest cheers
I've heard at a touring car event.
It was just phenomenal. Everyone was backing you.
And you, you did. You were that privateer that was
upsetting the words. Yeah.
Yeah, it was just a wonderful. That's what the British public
loves, the underdog, which is what we were.
And I think the the the because we were non conformist but the
Max power side as well. That too, yeah.
And people like that, people like that little bit bit of
thing. But you know, those Super
Touring cars, they were incredibly noisy in inside.
And you say that it's, I think it's one of the few moments,
maybe one of the only moments I've actually heard the crowd
roar. I heard it because you're
actually off throttle when when the move made, I made the move,
you're off throttle. Of course, yeah.
So and you could you, you could hear it in the car and that was,
you know, it makes the hairs and your your arms stand upon end
freely. Obviously after the race you
didn't feel like it changed you as a a person.
How did it change things though, perhaps for yourself on a
sporting point of view and also the team following that victory?
Did this sort of strength and ties in this and did it create
more sponsorship opportunities thereon?
A lot more respect from the works drivers.
Matt, that was official. Yeah, I think you've got respect
from everywhere. It's it just took it all to a
different level. You know, just suddenly you'd
proven yourself in one fell swoop.
So it's, but then your goals move, don't they?
So what you want? And and then I think our problem
then is, is they've got the factory cars, they've got Lauren
and David and Venison having us finish in front of the factory
cars wasn't good politics. And so after literally after the
diet and we had a 72 hour strip on the car and I had a drugs
test. So but then we got downgraded.
We got, we had to move engine suppliers and we got engine
specs changed, we got gearbox checks changed, banged.
And so I went from being having a mega pre season winning.
I could have won the 1st 2 races outright and I'd never win
another race that year because it didn't politically fit.
And that's I was, I was, I was, I was.
I was quite bitter through the year about it because I knew we
were. I think we were still second in
the championship to mid season but it was only by luck when I
honestly think we could have won that year if they'd have been
fair. But if with Alec and Alex, a
great friend and everything and an enemy, but we did it, I
understand it, but I didn't like it because it didn't fit.
They wanted us to embarrass as many of the other factory cars
as we could, but not embarrass their own.
No, it's like they wanted to put you exactly where they wanted
you, on the grid. Correct.
Absolutely. And they they'd literally play
with it. Now they've run with all the
boots, but because they were normally aspirated engines
there, then they just for the amount of ignition you could run
in the cars. Sometimes when you're running
maximum ignition, you thought the engine was going to detonate
as you're driving out the pit lane and you can have more on a
button and they say, right, you're allowed seven seconds.
This whole qualifying area, you're allowed seven seconds of
maximum ignition on the button and you've decided where you're
going to use it because the engine won't take any more.
They were that that fractional. So into 2000 he had a bit of a
bizarre rivalry with Tom Christensen.
Yeah, I think there was. Tom got drafted in for Honda
because they were after some superstars then and it was
before all his Le Mans successes and they had a pit lane
commentator, Aussie pit lane commentator who's genius, Mark
Fogarty. He was really, really good at
just making press where there wasn't press and he'd come to
you and he'd go, Ah, he says Adam said this and this this
about you. What do you got to say about
that? And go really just when you
fired up getting out of a car. Well, you tell him this and then
you go to Adam go, Oh, Matt said this about you.
He'd do the same with me and Tom.
And obviously I think Tom come from some clean racing and
suddenly I was getting my elbows the same was like John
Christophe bully on when he came, he got the he got the pox
because suddenly he left the door open and there was I was
down the inside. And but it's just BTC racing,
which I've said to other people, it's not pretty, it's brutal,
but it's it's you know, you blink you you know, you you've
lost a place and you know, you people can be too soft or too
nice. It's as long as you you don't
sort of be a clown with it. You know, it's it's hard racing.
I'd come from motocross and one make racing and it's, it's, it's
you know, you, you've got to you've got to deliver it.
You know you can't. You're either going forwards or
backwards. And like in motocross, you, you
use block passes and all the rest of it.
So, and, and that's what that's what, you know, I I got into so.
In 2000 as well, you you took another victory outright at
Brands Hatch. What sort of has always stuck
out to me about that win is that despite not having the budgets
that we, you know, already talked about that year that all
the manufacturer teams had in the development that came with
that, you managed to win quite sort of far into the season end
of August. Sort of winning that far into
the season against that development that was going on in
the budgets from the other teams.
Was it a case that maybe that win wasn't a specialist done in
tonight, but did it feel almost more run that when it brands in
2000 because of that uphill struggle you faced against the
big budgets and development of the works teams that year that
they also had free cars to develop with as well?
Yeah. I think in, in 2000, we didn't
have the pressure of Nissan factory cars there.
So we were allowed a little bit more free rein.
But then on the flip side, we didn't have Nissan taking the
development forward when the other manufacturers were still,
you know, Ford especially, we're already pushing hard and Pro
Drive, we're already pushing hard at that point.
I think it's like, I think you've got a little bit of luck.
It was, it was a pretty, it was a smaller grid back then, but it
was still pretty competitive. There was some, some heavy
hitters, you know, on the on the grid.
So it was there was some hard racing still going on.
I think I was just lucky at the time.
Yeah, I was. I was unlucky in other races and
I was lucky in that one, so. And you know, I had
Christensen's pants down Tom Christen's last corner.
Helped relations then, obviously.
Yeah, I get on with him now, fine.
Same as I get on with Jason, fine.
Now people say to me, with the Jason thing was, was the
animosity real? I went at one point I would have
burnt his house down. I really would have done.
You give me Fox matches, I've done it gladly.
But now I, you know, we were friends before we fell out and
like, I'm I concerned for his well-being now and we will go
out and have a beer or a bite to eat.
So yeah. Is this one particular race I
remember? There was a couple of snacks.
I mean, he was a fucker. Yeah, he would.
I think Jason and I are similar in one way.
We're very different in another way.
I think Jason is fiercely competitive.
He would win at any cost. Any cost.
I would win and I would. I would.
Don't get me wrong, I would have your eyes out to do it, but as
long as I would do it, I would try and do it fairly.
I wouldn't do anything to you which I wouldn't like.
And he's on Jason wouldn't. He would.
And on the flip side, we're both mischievous and we both like,
like to have each other, get one over each other.
So that sort of that manifested itself out of control.
And you know, there was one, I think a couple of years later,
he was leading and I was second and ran core and he kept on
break checking me, like break checking me, break checking me,
really slowing up to try and get whoever was behind me on to me.
And I saw it coming each time and just managed to avoid it.
And then on the 5th time, he really just slammed his foot on
the break and I nudged in the back of him.
I thought I got it, but I nudged in the back of him, knocked him
a little bit sideways, got alongside him.
I thought stuff it, I've got to go for it now.
I just got to carry on and deal with it later.
So I went into the last corner, Russell or whatever it is now,
it's called now. And Jason comes back and he
fires me, like both of us. He fires me so hard.
We both go off and Andy Jordan comes through and wins the race
because it's the last or last second last lap.
And we all knew going through that season, we all because
there was, it's when they used to not hide the points.
Well, they did hide the points, but we all knew Jason was on 9
points. And after 12, then you're back
to the MSA or notice what UK as it is now.
And so we, we knew this. And so they they put a protest
on me that I that I, I nerfed him out or gone in the back of
him and saying, look, he was break jacking me, not having
that. He said, we're going to do you.
I said, OK, no problem. But you've always told us in the
driver's briefing that retaliation is three times worse
than the event itself. So give me my three points.
You've got to sort this one out. And I could see him like the
penny drop and they go, OK, right.
You've got to leave the Pervis, you've got to leave the office.
20 minutes later we get summoned back in.
Me and Jason and our team managers, they said right you 2.
We're going to brush the Sunder mat, shake hands and just get
out of here. I'm going.
No, no, no. Give me my three points.
I want my three points. It's the first time in my life
I've been begging for three points on my license.
I'm guilty. Do me?
You did have one final fling with Super Touring in 2001.
You did the first meeting of the season of the Tour British
Touring Cars with Peugeot and Victoria Lee before that deal
sort of fell apart. And then you ended up in the
European Super Touring Championship with with your
Nissan. For the second-half of that
season you won Esteril. What was that like?
Because I, I watched that and I went to the Silverstone meeting,
which you weren't in, but it always felt it was missing
something that the BTCC had, that this European Super Touring
Championship just felt a bit hollow with this.
Is that fair to say that's something you experienced?
I you know, I'd like to hear you think.
It's Andy Pria has struggled with this.
You know, he's four times. They say he's 3, but he's four
times world champion. Yeah, race and that and but I
can walk down the street and I'm better known than he is in the
UK. But the BTC has the, the
rivalries, the, you know, the known names, the European and,
and world as it ended up as the, you know, mega drivers.
I think when, when I went out there, the Nissan was fast.
Nissan wouldn't give us all the stuff that they've been running
previously, but that was OK because the car was still fast.
But it was, it was fragile. You know, you go against the
alphas and the Audis out there and they were built like Sherman
tanks. And I ended up with a big, big
bit of with them, especially with there was a couple of the
Audis were nutters. I can't remember their names.
And anyway, there was one of the other guys.
Anyway, there was Giovinardi. He was in the alpha and he was
up for the championship. And we ended up having A and I
always ended up worse off because the, the the Nissan was
so fragile. I remember we got to Harama and
we have the big drivers briefing and Monica Sips is and they all
were a bit like the mafia down there, the you know, and
technology and they've got Nicola, Rene Giovinardi, I can't
remember who, a bunch of them. Felipe Massa was in one at some
point as well. And anyway, I went to the the
and Juvenardi at that point, his English was pretty poor.
Anyway, I went from the back of the drivers briefing and we'd
had to run in the last few meetings and I waited for him
and I went for a bit to. I just want to wish you well for
the weekend, I said. But do me a favour, don't come
near me, I said. If you come near me and you hit
me, I said I'm going to get you. I said if I don't get you on the
track, I'm going to come and find you and I'm going to get
you and he's going to understand.
Monica Sips understands every word.
So I said no, no, there's no problem, just tell him to stay
away from me and we'll get on fine.
And anyway, he qualified 2 rows behind me on the grid.
The lights go on before everyone's moved.
He's gone and he the last thing I see is his car coming over the
top of mine as he's hit me and I literally didn't go out.
My box destroyed my car and I couldn't find him anyway.
Then I think Silverstone's the next round and they used to, but
it was proper racing then because he used to have the, the
first races you qualify, there's two races and then the second
race they reversed the whole grid, which is fun.
I've tried to get Gal into it but he won't do it.
And, and anyway, so I, I think I finished third in the first race
or something. I had a good first race and so
it was how quickly you can make it through the traffic because
the next one was fast. Anyway, I had a blinding first
lap at Silverstone. You all want to do well at your
home race, don't you? First race and I got up to about
5th by about the veil and I'm going really well.
Suddenly going into the veil, it's tight left-hander.
I got this whack up the back. I'm going fuck's sake.
So I'm down, I'm going back down the field again.
My old boy comes on the radio because he's on the radio to me.
They could see it on TV. He goes ah, Gillian Bernardi hit
you up the ass and I went really, was he near me?
No. And I said Are you sure?
Yeah, yeah, Jim Bernardi sort of rage.
I just filled with rage at this point and they go right.
I could see him like well, so I get my head down.
I'm trying to catch him up anyway.
I'm even more annoyed I couldn't catch him by the end of the
race. So I catch him up on we cross
finish line, checker flag catch up on the slang down lap.
I pull alongside him, ram him, which now you can get done for.
So then his arms go all up in the air.
He's waving his arms at me in very.
Terms all Italian. I'm waving my arms at him,
going. I'm going to get you all the
rest of it. Anyway, it turns out it wasn't
invited me at all, it was someone else.
I did go and apologize to him, but we really didn't get on.
And then it was quite surreal when he came to the UK back in,
whenever he did O6O7, he didn't know anybody.
And then and I, he knew me even though we hadn't got on and we
became best friends. You know, I'm it's like me and
Jason, it's all water under the bridge.
And no, for Britz I'll keep still keep in touch with now.
And he's he's a proper good lad and obviously his teammate in I
think 08/09. I think we had.
We had a blinding time together. It was it was really good fun.
He's got a temper on him. He's very Italian.
How how was that transition for you then to been in obviously
dynamics with family team for such a long time to then go and
race for Vauxhall in the BTC to see him and it doesn't probably
get more high pressure than that.
Did you feel the pressure or did you enjoy stepping away from the
normal environment or? I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed stepping into your own own space and doing your own
thing. And I'd done a bit of it before
down in Australia and all that sort of stuff.
So, but I enjoyed it. You know, I, it was a shame.
I thought I'd done a good job in, I'd done Voxlin Honda at the
beginning of the noughties at night with the egg team and that
sort of stuff. So I enjoyed that and you know,
it was because you're you're doing your own thing.
I love, you know, the time we've had with Dynamics is magical
because it's a big family affair and what I've enjoyed doing my
own thing as well, so. You've obviously you, you were,
you were a triple BTCC champion, Matt and coming to the end of
the of the show now we, we've taken a large amount of your
time this evening. So thank you for that.
What's what's happening for Matt and Neil these days?
What's what are you up to? What are dynamics up to?
You're enjoying, you're enjoying your classic racing now.
I'm really enjoying my classic racing.
I was lucky that I got into asked to drive by Tuttles.
Probably the year is it the year after?
The year after I I stopped full time Yeah.
Helping. They've got a tall novice driver
racing in the Porsche Toolies Cup in Europe and could I help
him and maybe be a team? He was tall so I would fit being
a teammate for him. And I've spent the last three
years going around Europe with with Steve and he's been great.
I mean, he's a, he's a great guy, lovely family and similar
sort of. And we've had a lot of laughs.
And yeah, the, the historic paddock is it's less pressure.
You still want to perform and you still got yourself pressure.
And you know, the, the competitiveness is still there
and it's great. You know, the Peter Auto Series
is fantastic that if I hit your car, I've got to pay a minimum
of 50% of the repair bill, which I think is, is a really good
thing because people's people are competitive.
People want to win and people will go for it, but they make
some think twice before being a goon.
Alan Gall's never going to go for that man.
Yeah, I suggested it. I've suggested it.
He just looked to me and rolled his eyes.
I think. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, go for that. He wants the entertainment.
But a dynamics now we've got the accelerator based out of
Hyundai's. Yes, of course, yeah.
And so we're giving him some engineering support and, and
help on the racing. And then we're, we're prepping
some new, some old stuff, some sexy stuff and some more modern
classics, Porsches and Zytecs for, for people.
So it's different and, but I think it's, it's the way the
future is. You know, I think where I
struggle with touring cars is the business bottles broken as
far as I, you know, from my side.
And I'll probably get shot down for saying it, but it's so
expensive now and then with the current environment and, well,
we live in it. It's a bit, little bit broken
when the manufacturers are all into it and behind it.
It's sort of half stacked up. Yeah.
When you've got to start generating the money, it's hard
to justify the return on investment to sponsors and
investors and all the rest of it unless you've got daddy or
whatever, you know, with a big bag of cash behind you, which is
not what it's all about for me. So, you know, the classic side
is people who want to go racing. Well, Matt, I think we'll leave
it there for tonight because as I said, we've taken up enough of
your very valuable time and we'd just like to thank you for
coming along and and spending a couple of hours with us and
sharing your stories with the listeners.
So. Cheers boys, thanks for being so
gentle with me. Will we ever see you?
Will we ever see you in a super tour again, Matt?
Will you ever get in one if someone invites you into one?
I guess. I got invited down to the one
next year and I've at the moment I've said my diary's free.
Oh. And I was meant to, I was, I
did, I did. They've just said am I free that
weekend? I did get invited by down to
Nigel Barclay. Listen in New Zealand this last
January or February and I was going to do it.
And then there was a, you know, Nigel had family dramas and
everything and it was a load of issues.
So I ended up not going at the end, but I was up for doing
that, which would have been fun with with Murph and and Richard
down there. So that would have been good to
catch up with them. Yeah, they were great fun last
year at Super Touring Power and obviously had one of your cars,
Greg Murphy was racing one of your old dynamics in the sand.
So yeah, it'd be, it'd be. I still think that.
Both of them are still pretty handy.
Yes, yeah, yeah. No, no slow cheers, but but no.
Matt, thanks again very much for your time and and yeah, thanks
for everything. Cheers boys.
Thanks. Yeah, nice one.
Meanwhile, make sure you join us again next week, where we'll be
joined by Greg Haynes to look back at the 2000 BTCC season
finale at Silverstone, which happened to be the last ever
BTCC Super Toy Race held. Until then, we'll see you next
week. Goodbye.