1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:19,190
Stories from Super Touring. 
Hello and welcome back to this 

2
00:00:19,190 --> 00:00:23,070
week's episode of Stories from 
Super Touring, the podcast where

3
00:00:23,070 --> 00:00:26,950
we've dived deep into the golden
era of touring car racing with 

4
00:00:26,950 --> 00:00:30,470
the drivers, engineers, and 
personalities who lived it. 

5
00:00:30,990 --> 00:00:34,430
Today we're joined by a true 
veteran of the sport, Tim 

6
00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:37,000
Suckton. 
From British touring cars to 

7
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,120
international GT racing, Tim's 
career spans decades and 

8
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,400
includes some incredible stories
from both sides of the pit wall.

9
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,400
Tim, it's a real pleasure to 
have you on the show this 

10
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,600
evening. 
How are you doing? 

11
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,640
Yeah. 
I'm good, Thank you. 

12
00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:53,800
Yeah, all good. 
Thank you. 

13
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,360
Thank you very much for inviting
me on. 

14
00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,000
Oh, not at all. 
And as I said at the start of 

15
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,319
the show, your career in 
Motorsports spanned decades from

16
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,880
all sorts of different styles of
racing. 

17
00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,040
Single seaters, touring cars, 
GTS. 

18
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,600
Where did it all start? 
How did you find yourself in 

19
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,360
motorsport at the first place? 
Wow, you want to go? 

20
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,520
You want to go right back to the
very, very beginning, do you? 

21
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,800
Ah. 
Yes, yes. 

22
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,400
Very good. 
We're going to be a very good 

23
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:32,680
place to start. 
So, OK, so I have told this tale

24
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,440
quite a few times over the 
years. 

25
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,280
And so then they, the main thing
I suppose was actually started. 

26
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,400
We used to go as a family every 
year. 

27
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,000
We used to go stay in 
Grassington, actually a little 

28
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,120
used to go with my mum, my 
cousin and his mum and we rent a

29
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,120
little cottage in Grassington 
for the first week of the six 

30
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,560
week holidays. 
And the lady that lived next 

31
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,480
door to the cottage that we 
rented, well actually was the 

32
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,240
lady that had the local milk 
round and she gave me a book. 

33
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,039
I was only about, I was about, I
was to be in 10. 

34
00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:12,760
She gave me a book about Rd 
traces. 

35
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:19,000
It's just a little kids thin 
book and it had one page in it. 

36
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,920
I remember about go karting and 
it's and it and it talked about 

37
00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,120
go karting and it said that you 
could start when you were 12. 

38
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,360
And, and I read this book from 
cover to cover several times. 

39
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,480
And then the year, so she first 
showed me when I was 9, the year

40
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,480
went back in, the book was still
there. 

41
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,280
And so I read it again and then 
the lady said you want to keep 

42
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,480
the book. 
And I remember saying to my dad,

43
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,880
look, I can start go karting 
when I'm 12. 

44
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,760
Dad said, well, that looks 
expensive. 

45
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,720
He said you better start saving 
up. 

46
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,160
So I did without telling my dad.
I saved all my birthday money, 

47
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,280
all my Christmas money, my 
bobber job money, because I was 

48
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,680
in the scouts and I used to have
every year I'd have you had a 

49
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,760
card to write all your jobs down
and how much you'd earned. 

50
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,560
And I stole an extra card. 
So I had my official card that 

51
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,720
had about four jobs on it that 
handed in. 

52
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,280
But then I had at least one 
other card that had all the jobs

53
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,640
I'd really done. 
And I kept that money for 

54
00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:22,480
myself. 
And I did that two years 

55
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,840
running. 
And I went to my back to my dad 

56
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,880
after Christmas. 
So my birthday is in April, same

57
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,120
as James doesn't say. 
So after birthday, Christmas 

58
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,600
that year I said right I've got 
200 lbs and you know that was 

59
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,440
when, bear in mind this was when
everything was black and white 

60
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,920
and people walked around a lot 
faster. 

61
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,120
It was a long time ago and 200 
lbs was a lot of money and my 

62
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,880
dad was amazed that saved up 
£200 and so he said well come on

63
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,760
then. 
So we went and we found this 

64
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,960
place in Hasselford I think we 
went to buy a go a Kart. 

65
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,800
We didn't have a clue looking 
back, I mean really really did 

66
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,760
not have a clue. 
We bought this go Kart that was 

67
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:10,680
turned out it was 11 years old 
for £110 and we bought a race 

68
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,760
suit for 15 and a crash helmet 
for 12 and off we went and like 

69
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,920
it was like dumb and Dumber 
bless me. 

70
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:23,360
And my dad went racing to start 
with God love my dad. 

71
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,080
He's gone now unfortunately. 
But you know, we didn't have a 

72
00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,640
clue. 
But we learned, you know, we 

73
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,200
went to the first race, we got 
thrown out because we didn't 

74
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,680
have the right engine. 
But they let me race. 

75
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,520
The scrutineer took one look at 
it and said you can't race that.

76
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,480
So they said well why not? 
He said well it's 5 parted, what

77
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,840
does that mean? 
Well it needs to be 3 parted. 

78
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:44,880
We don't have a clue. 
What a pause. 

79
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:51,320
So we raced and we started to do
better and we learnt and karting

80
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,000
was good. 
You know, it was great as me and

81
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,160
my dad were going racing. 
It was really, really good fun 

82
00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,320
looking back. 
And we did well. 

83
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,120
We ended up winning the British 
National Championship and being 

84
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,880
like captain the British team 
and. 

85
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,440
And so that's what started my 
career basically. 

86
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,680
And yeah. 
And it all went from there. 

87
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,160
Yeah, you, you mentioned that 
you became British champion and 

88
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,080
that followed up to a move to 
Formula Ford 1600 where you won 

89
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,000
the Star of Mallory series in 
1987. 

90
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,720
You've just skipped about six 
years there because I also, I 

91
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,400
don't want to bore you with it 
all, but when I started in 

92
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,040
Formula 4I was 17 and I was 
ironing, selling cars at the 

93
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,040
time, literally when I was 17 to
pay for my racing and I bought a

94
00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,680
Crashed Royale RP 26 and I 
basically rebuilt it myself over

95
00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,520
six, about six months. 
Didn't have a clue where all the

96
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,160
bits went. 
Begged, borrowed and stole the 

97
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,280
bits to repair it. 
Went to race meetings and took 

98
00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,440
photographs of cars to work out 
where all the bits went. 

99
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,000
And a guy called Colin Bennett 
helped me a lot. 

100
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,320
That Colin from Warrington 
helped me a lot and I raced that

101
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,040
car for three years and I 
actually did quite well with it 

102
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,840
at local level but in but 
totally gave up because I 

103
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,320
basically decided that I didn't 
have enough money to go anywhere

104
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,280
and racing. 
I became really disillusioned 

105
00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,560
with it. 
I was buying and selling cars. 

106
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,000
I was doing quite well with 
that. 

107
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,560
And I just decided to stop and I
just stopped racing completely 

108
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,320
for two years and went back to 
do a bit of karting actually. 

109
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,200
And I, my first garage when I 
was 19 and I was selling cars 

110
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,960
full time and I, and I literally
stopped. 

111
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,720
And it was only one day that a 
friend of my dad's called in at 

112
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,600
the garage just for a chat. 
And I remember it was saying, 

113
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,080
how's the racing going? 
And I said, I'm not racing 

114
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,840
anymore. 
And he said, well, why? 

115
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,360
And I said, I said because it's 
a waste of time and if you 

116
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:58,920
haven't got any money, you can't
get anywhere. 

117
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,160
And he said, I said, I'm 
concentrating on buying and 

118
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,640
selling cars. 
And he said, well, you could do 

119
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,360
that anytime. 
He said, I think you're silly. 

120
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,680
He said you should race. 
You were obviously quite good 

121
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,520
and you should have another go. 
So I kind of thought, you know 

122
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,920
what, he's right. 
I probably can buy and sell cars

123
00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,400
at any age, but I won't be able 
to race at any age. 

124
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,480
So it was then that I sort of 
started again. 

125
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:25,440
And I bought a Reynard from 
Gimli and I still had my garage 

126
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,240
and me and my friend prepared 
that. 

127
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,960
But it was a much newer car. 
We did Star of Mallory for a 

128
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,600
year and that went well. 
And I finished third of fourth 

129
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,440
in the championship, had some 
good results. 

130
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,080
And it was at that point that I 
thought, right, I'm going to 

131
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,080
stop everything. 
I sold all my cars, closed the 

132
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:48,520
garage, and that's when I got 
the RF87 Vandeman, which Ralph 

133
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,160
Furman lent me. 
Ralph leased me that car for 

134
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,640
about 3 grand and Alan 
Wardropper gave me an engine 

135
00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,640
free of charge as long as I 
bought 1. 

136
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,720
And and me and my friend 
prepared that car from my 

137
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,840
friend's garage and we prepared 
it. 

138
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:11,760
So yeah, that that I very nearly
gave up racing when I was 18, I 

139
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,680
think because I just thought it 
was a waste of time. 

140
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,880
Skipping a little bit ahead to 
1990 now, Tim, you were in the 

141
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,160
Formula Renault championship 
that year and you again. 

142
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,640
To. 
Sort of good success in that 

143
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:29,960
series. 
In your first year in the 

144
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,760
category, you've got a race win 
and finish third overall in the 

145
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,360
championship. 
Was that an early? 

146
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,240
Win what race? 
I've done better than that. 

147
00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,440
I mean, it was, it was that did 
that feel like a very at that 

148
00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,120
point still thinking that you 
were maybe trying to get up to 

149
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,320
sort of Formula 3, Formula 3000 
up to F1 level? 

150
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,960
Or was it just a thing of 
looking to go racing for fun and

151
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,800
and test yourself as much as you
could? 

152
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,600
No, it was never for fun. 
It was an obsession. 

153
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,320
You know, it was, it was. 
No, it was never. 

154
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,000
It was. 
It was never for fun. 

155
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,200
It was a complete and utter 
obsession. 

156
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,800
And you know, you've got to 
remember when I did Formula 

157
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,000
Renault, I remember a group 
drove for a guy called Graham GJ

158
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,720
Motorsport and I'd I'd just done
two years Formula Ford with 

159
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,520
Frank Bradley in doing quite 
well in Formula Ford with, with 

160
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:30,760
Frank as factory swift driver. 
And that that really sort of got

161
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,920
me going. 
And the year that you're talking

162
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,000
about with Formula Renault was 
the first year that I got the 

163
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,880
BMW junior drive as well. 
So that year was a really, 

164
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,680
really massive pivotal moment. 
It's a big shift. 

165
00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:50,200
I'd gone from doing national 
Formula Ford and Formula Renault

166
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:55,120
was massive that year and there 
was 72 competitors or something 

167
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,080
in that championship. 
I mean, it's hard to get your 

168
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480
head round how many people were 
look at all the national. 

169
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,280
You look at all the national 
championships now and how 

170
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,160
they're lucky if they can get 21
or 22 Formula Four cars on the 

171
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,760
grid. 
It was 72 for her and it was a 

172
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,320
really, really strong 
championship. 

173
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,480
So I remember it was me. 
I think the top three in the 

174
00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,880
championship was, I think Tommy 
Erdos won the championship and 

175
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,840
Chris Goodwin was second and I 
was third. 

176
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,560
I was team mates with Dave 
Coyne, Coyne and I've been team 

177
00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:34,560
mates with Swift in former Ford.
And then Graham gave us both the

178
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:38,520
drive and I, I remember I had to
raise some money. 

179
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,160
I try and tell the kids that I 
look after now and I manage that

180
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,840
drive. 
That year I remember was 20 

181
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,000
grand. 
The going rate was about, I 

182
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,600
think people were paying 85 or 
something like that for a full 

183
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,320
season and from the ran out of 
time. 

184
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,120
Sounds cheap, but it was a lot 
of honey there and Graham 

185
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,800
offered me a drive for 20 and I 
signed the deal in sort of 

186
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,120
November. 
And I remember I didn't have 

187
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,520
any. 
I had about 3 grand and I didn't

188
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,760
know where that we have a clue 
where the rest was coming from. 

189
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,040
So I managed to find the money 
going through as I went through 

190
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,640
the season to do that. 
And I also got the BMW drive. 

191
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,000
But no, I mean that was a real, 
I mean it seems like yesterday. 

192
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,520
It's bizarre thinking about it 
because I know how long ago it 

193
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,160
was, which is genuinely does 
seem like yesterday. 

194
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,840
I was also running a cart track.
I started a cart track then in 

195
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,160
Bradford. 
OK. 

196
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,400
I was at the time when indoor 
karting was just happening and a

197
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,160
friend of mine came to me and 
said we're thinking of starting 

198
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,600
a Kart track, but we don't know 
anything about karting. 

199
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,880
I said can you, can you help us?
And so I said, well, yeah. 

200
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,320
I said I know all about karting,
but I'm not sure about. 

201
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,800
And I've been to an indoor Kart 
track a few times. 

202
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,480
So I basically went into 
partnership with two guys, three

203
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,120
guys actually. 
So there's four of us. 

204
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,840
We set up cart track in Bradford
but we couldn't find a building 

205
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,760
so our indoor cart track was 
outside. 

206
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:13,240
We, we, we had, we had a cheap 
bit of land that was landlocked 

207
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,920
from British Rail and we, so we 
built a cart track, a little 

208
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,640
cart track. 
We got, I remember we bought 6 

209
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,320
carts between us and, and we 
started that. 

210
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,440
So that year I did former 
Renault, got the BMW junior team

211
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,480
thing and I ran an indoor car 
track. 

212
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,080
So which was the, some of the, 
looking back, some of the best 

213
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,880
phone I ever had running that 
car track. 

214
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,040
It was, I'd be testing or doing 
whatever or instructing during 

215
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,520
the day and then I'd rush back 
and get back to the car track, 

216
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,560
do the drivers briefing. 
And then I was the commentator 

217
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:50,520
at the car track. 
And I've got so many 

218
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,640
unbelievably funny stories about
being commentator, but some of 

219
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:56,720
them are difficult to tell to 
anybody. 

220
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,080
But nowadays they were difficult
to tell 25 years ago. 

221
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,600
But now, well, it's probably 
impossible to tell. 

222
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,680
In terms of the Renault, 
obviously Renault was huge back 

223
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:13,160
then, wasn't it? 
Like it was bigger than it, like

224
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,800
it was massive? 
Formula Renault, When I look 

225
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,000
back, I see my brother racing 
Renault after you. 

226
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,920
But it was just massive. 
It was like the Formula Ford 

227
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,440
Festival at times. 
Like there was that many cars 

228
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,960
compared to a lot of other say 
like Formula Ford was huge. 

229
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,240
Not he had the Formula Ford 
Festival at Brands Hatch, but 

230
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,840
Renault, I just remember it was 
like it was the main 

231
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,640
championship for any, any single
seater. 

232
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,400
Yeah. 
There was, as I say that that 

233
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,320
year, 72 registered competitors,
you know, 2 grades. 

234
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,680
So it was like an A final and AB
final base. 

235
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,600
Yeah, Yeah, it was, it was 
fantastic. 

236
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,480
And and also you remember you 
had Clio's as well, you know. 

237
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,040
So Reno's Motorsport, but I 
often look back at that era like

238
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,680
we all do, probably with rose 
coloured spectacles to an 

239
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,480
extent, but my barometer was 
always the racing car show. 

240
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,520
You used to go to the racing car
show and the racing car show in 

241
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,880
those days was 11 or 12 halls, 
got up to like 16 halls. 

242
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,200
You know, every manufacturer was
there with a massive stand. 

243
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,680
Pro Drive always had their big 
stand in the middle. 

244
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:21,520
There would be a karting 2 or 3 
halls just for karting, the 

245
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,400
massive indoor karting thing for
Respect to watch. 

246
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,480
There would be every major 
chassis manufacturer from all 

247
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,760
the Formula Ford teams, former 
Renault teams, former three 

248
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,080
teams and all of a stand. 
The show was enormous. 

249
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,920
I absolutely enormous. 
And you know, I went to it this 

250
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,480
year. 
I go every year because I love 

251
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,560
the show. 
But you know, it's really sad to

252
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,760
see that it's now 2 halls, 
basically a load of carts. 

253
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,360
So I mean, I go going back to 
what you said. 

254
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,520
So I mean, I, if I'm honest, I, 
I didn't, I never had anybody to

255
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,960
sort of guide me or advise me or
I said it was me and my dad 

256
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,480
basically and what we could 
learn. 

257
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,280
And, you know, my dad was a 
member of the local motor club 

258
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,960
and Zach, looking back, that was
terrible place to learn anything

259
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,880
because that was just full of 
people that all knew nothing 

260
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,160
about racing really, but all 
well meaning. 

261
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,160
But they knew nothing. 
And they would all just talk 

262
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,760
rubbish for a night once a 
month. 

263
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,440
And, and, and it was so like 
negative in terms of, you know, 

264
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,560
there was no, nobody telling 
somebody like me what to do or 

265
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,240
how to try and go forward. 
All they were telling me was 

266
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,960
that it was impossible and it 
was expensive and you couldn't 

267
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,400
do it if you were an arcade and 
blah, blah, blah. 

268
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,360
So whenever you talked about 
going to a race team, again, one

269
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,280
of the big mistakes was whenever
I thought about do I go to a 

270
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,440
race team, everybody said, oh, 
no, don't go to a race team. 

271
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,360
They'll just RIP you off. 
You know, they're just, they're 

272
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,360
just there to make money. 
You know, you should have your 

273
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,480
own car and your own trailer and
your own, you know, tools and 

274
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,280
everything. 
So my, my sort of aspirations, 

275
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,080
if I'm honest, I used to think I
never knew if I was good enough 

276
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,240
or if I could do it or I didn't 
have a clue. 

277
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,880
But I thought if I could get to 
Formula Three, that was what, I 

278
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,160
don't know why, but that's what 
I thought when I was a kid. 

279
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,400
If I could get to Formula Three,
that would be great. 

280
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,320
And then I started to think, you
know, in that sort of era when I

281
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,760
was starting to learn about 
stuff in Formula Four. 

282
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,120
And I just thought if I could 
just get, I was trying to be a 

283
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,600
single Z to driver. 
But if I can try, if I can just 

284
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,000
be a professional driver, then 
that would be, I'd be happy with

285
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,480
that if you like. 
But I was still trying even to 

286
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,800
when I was 20/23/24 and I was 
still doing the Formula Renault 

287
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,040
thing because, and I even did 
one race in Formula 3000 because

288
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,720
I still had that dream that 
somehow it could, it could maybe

289
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:51,960
happen. 
That's it. 

290
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,080
Like you said, it's all our 
dreams to really just become a, 

291
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,160
a, a paid professional, isn't 
it? 

292
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:57,520
In the sport that we love, 
that's what we. 

293
00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,800
Yeah. 
Exactly as yeah, if you, if you 

294
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,880
can get paid to drive, then 
that's that's that's good. 

295
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,040
So that year in 1990, obviously,
as you say, you were racing 

296
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,960
single seaters still, but that 
was the year that you you landed

297
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:18,240
the the BMW junior team drive. 
How did that come about And and 

298
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,000
was that a a long and drawn out 
process and obviously ultimately

299
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,319
successful one, but what what 
was that journey like? 

300
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,160
Well, again, looking back, I 
mean, that was absolutely, I 

301
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,880
mean, it sounds dramatic, but it
was life changing for me. 

302
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,400
And you know, I can, I will 
never be able to thank Pro Drive

303
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,480
and BMW enough for for that 
opportunity. 

304
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,960
Because I think honestly, 
looking back, if that hadn't 

305
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,720
have happened, I don't really 
see, you know, totally 

306
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,200
realistically how I would have 
had a professional career in 

307
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000
racing. 
And it was something that never 

308
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,200
done before. 
I mean, the junior team was 

309
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,240
obviously something that Mark 
Shearer and people have been 

310
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,560
involved with back in the day, 
but then nobody done a junior 

311
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,440
team since and they didn't do it
afterwards. 

312
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,080
It was actually just that one 
year. 

313
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,280
And I think what BMW did looking
back was very good. 

314
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,520
I know the way that they 
shortlisted us was they wrote to

315
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,880
all the people in England that 
were involved in race. 

316
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,800
So they wrote to the likes of 
Van Diemen, Royal Scholar, 

317
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,560
Minister, anybody that was a 
race team or chassis 

318
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,000
manufacturer or an engine 
builder or anything like that in

319
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,040
Formula 3, Formula Reno, Formula
Ford. 

320
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,880
And they asked all those people 
to give them a list of drivers 

321
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:46,000
that they thought were good. 
From that information, they then

322
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,440
drew up a shortlist. 
And I think the, the initial 

323
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,160
shortlist was, I think it was 
something like 20 of us every 22

324
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,640
or something like that. 
We went to Silver Star for two 

325
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:05,200
days of fitness training 
interviews, obviously driving a 

326
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:12,040
race car, driving a road car. 
And I can't remember exactly how

327
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,600
it happened, but I know that at 
the end of that two day period, 

328
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,320
they, they hadn't decided yet 
what to do. 

329
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,640
So they, they invited ten of us 
to come back, right. 

330
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,000
And have another girl or a 
second girl, if you like, If I 

331
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,080
remember it rightly, I remember 
there was, there was, there was,

332
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,520
there was less people certainly 
the second time. 

333
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,800
So now, so we drove then I say 
we drove the race car, sat next 

334
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,120
to Frank Sitner and James Weaver
at the time. 

335
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,440
And, and we did the interviews 
and the fitness tests and then 

336
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,160
they the results. 
But I remember it, I don't know 

337
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,840
why, but it took a long time for
them to decide who to have. 

338
00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:01,000
I think we did the tests in 
October time, September even. 

339
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,920
It must have been was after, it 
was after the former Ford 

340
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:05,960
Festival. 
I know that. 

341
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,240
So probably it was probably 
October, let's say. 

342
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,240
But they didn't actually, I 
don't think they give us the 

343
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,720
results until. 
Just before Christmas. 

344
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,400
Now it might have been after 
Christmas. 

345
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:17,800
Actually it took a long time 
for. 

346
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,640
What a horrible wait. 
I know I kept ringing up every 

347
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,760
now and again a. 
Horrible thing I. 

348
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,800
Shouldn't I kept ringing to blow
up and saying have you, have you

349
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,560
made decisions yet? 
And I realised every time I rang

350
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,200
up that I probably did myself no
favours. 

351
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,280
It turned out later that they 
were just, they couldn't decide.

352
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,680
You know, I, I, I think I was 
one of the first of the three 

353
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,560
that they put down on the list, 
and I think they couldn't decide

354
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,360
who else to have. 
So in the end, it was, yeah, it 

355
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,400
was fantastic to get that. 
Amazing, actually. 

356
00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:01,320
In the end it was you, Kelvin 
Burke and Kurt Luby all got the 

357
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,400
chance to race alongside Frank 
Sittner that year. 

358
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,200
I've got to ask, what was that 
like? 

359
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,800
That must have been quite 
intimidating to go into the into

360
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,560
the lions den with Frank 
Sittner. 

361
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,240
So Frank. 
So let me say, Frank's one of 

362
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,680
the most, again, pivotal people 
in my career. 

363
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:24,320
Frank was incredibly supportive 
and is still somebody I talked 

364
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,280
to now, not very often, but I 
talked to Frank a few months 

365
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,480
ago. 
No, Frank. 

366
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,000
Frank was amazing and really, 
really couldn't, couldn't have 

367
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,320
wished for anything. 
The whole pro drive experience 

368
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,280
for me was amazing. 
Frank was great. 

369
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,480
I mean, he was super 
competitive, super serious, 

370
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,760
really that that was the first 
time, that era was the first 

371
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,160
time I really started to meet 
what I would call proper people.

372
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,240
And when I say that, I mean 
people that are intelligent, 

373
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,560
successful, motivated, 
charismatic, whatever you want 

374
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,760
to call it, you know, and I've 
not really met many people like 

375
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,480
that when I was younger and I 
started to meet people like Dave

376
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,720
Richards, who is one of the most
incredible people you could ever

377
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,080
wish to meet. 
I mean, David is such a clever, 

378
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:27,240
clever man and and still amazes 
me how much he achieved and 

379
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,480
still achieves, you know, he's 
just that guy is such an 

380
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,520
inspiration for anybody, I 
think. 

381
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,440
But there was people there at 
Pro Drive like David Lapworth, 

382
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,080
who was, I used to love sitting 
down and talking to David 

383
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,880
Lapworth. 
And my engineer Mark Ellis at 

384
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,560
the time was amazing as well. 
So it was such a, a phenomenal 

385
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,440
group of people. 
But yeah, Frank was Frank was 

386
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,560
great. 
He was quick, he was educated, 

387
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,800
he was serious, and it was good.
It was really good fun. 

388
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:09,240
But yeah, taught me a lot. 
Heading into 1991 then and you 

389
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:14,520
had a part season in the 
Prodrive BMW again, the main 

390
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,080
stand out of that year must have
been your win at Brands Hatch. 

391
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,920
How was that? 
How was that as a day, as a as a

392
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,360
race to get? 
Did it feel like you'd arrived 

393
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:30,480
in the BTCC at that point? 
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, I

394
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,320
was delighted to keep the drive.
Obviously the first year I had 

395
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,680
Kelvin and Curt as teammates and
the plan was always to keep one 

396
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,440
of us as a full time driver if 
you like, or to give us another 

397
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,640
contract. 
And both Kelvin and Kerr are 

398
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,480
both exceptionally talented 
guys, no doubt. 

399
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,040
I mean, Kelvin is probably one 
of the most lost sort of talents

400
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,520
that there's ever been in 
England. 

401
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,680
I think really, I mean, Kelvin 
was, everybody knows he was 

402
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,600
British former 3 champion, 
super, super, super talented 

403
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,960
kid. 
But Kurt always also was really 

404
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,120
good, really, really good. 
So I was, I was delighted that 

405
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:13,320
they kept me. 
And I honestly think that it was

406
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,240
just that I was probably the 
most all round person, if you 

407
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,120
like, you know, Calvin was 
always late for everything. 

408
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,880
And I used to, I mean, he was 
great when he was late because I

409
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,560
thought, well, you're not doing 
yourself any good, but you know,

410
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,400
I'd encourage him to be late. 
But I mean, Kelvin was fantastic

411
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,200
guy and and Kurt was super 
talented as well. 

412
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,240
But Kurt couldn't, you know, 
wouldn't really have been too 

413
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,960
bothered for all the PR and 
marketing stuff. 

414
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,840
I mean, he would do it. 
Of course, I'm not saying he 

415
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,600
wouldn't do it at all do it, but
I, I, I would go to the opening 

416
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,160
of an envelope and I just made 
sure that I tried to do 

417
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,520
absolutely everything to, to 
give myself the best chance of 

418
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,480
getting the drive because I knew
that was my only hope. 

419
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,240
So yeah, the year after I was 
delighted to keep my contract 

420
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,440
and yeah, I wasn't sure if I was
going to get 4 races or five 

421
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,840
standing in. 
Basically when Steve couldn't do

422
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,960
the DTM stuff. 
I thought I was tied up with DTM

423
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,120
rather, but yeah, the the day at
Brands was amazing. 

424
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:25,080
But it came off Silverstone the 
week before or two weeks before,

425
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,200
because two weeks before I'd 
been on pole at Silverstone as 

426
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,000
well, and I'd nest the style 
basically completely. 

427
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,040
I can't remember what I did, but
I had too many reps or something

428
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,200
and I spun the wheels and made a
terrible start and didn't turn 

429
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,520
it into a win. 
So when I got it on pole again 

430
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:47,480
two or three weeks later at 
France, I really, really thought

431
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,320
don't fuck it up this time, you 
know? 

432
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,800
And just I, I managed to get a 
decent star sat behind Wilhoit 

433
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,200
for 20 laps and sort of kind of 
pushing away past a little bit 

434
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,240
of Druid all clean ways or where
everyone managed to win. 

435
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,280
Yeah, I mean that was, and it 
was my only BTC win, which I 

436
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,880
look back now at people that are
doing BTCC now and now they're 

437
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,960
having sixty wins or whatever 
they've got and I just think 

438
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,560
it's amazing. 
But you know, they have three 

439
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,120
races a day now or three races a
weekend have won and and we only

440
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,720
so, so I think we had 10 races a
year they had, they've got 30 if

441
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,680
you like, but still I only won 
once. 

442
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:33,240
So even this year, and I've only
have 3, I mean, I mean, 

443
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,360
obviously, I mean I'm still 
involved in the sport day in, 

444
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,160
day out, every hour of every 
day. 

445
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,680
I'm probably involved in 
Modesport more now than I've 

446
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,920
ever been. 
And I do quite a lot of driver 

447
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,720
coaching still and a lot of 
managing of drivers and things. 

448
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,360
So I, I understand a lot more 
about driving now than I 

449
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:54,120
probably did that back then. 
I just sort of did it really. 

450
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,560
You've got to remember that in 
that era there was no data. 

451
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,720
We were just the beginnings of 
data, and I think the first data

452
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,440
logger I had on a car was 
probably 91 in that BMW. 

453
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,720
There's certainly nothing in 
Formula Ford or in Formula 

454
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,920
Renault. 
And you just drove and I think 

455
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,280
it was, you know, I hate the 
word natural driver because in 

456
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,240
the evolution of man, we've only
had cars for the last 30 

457
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,280
seconds. 
So there's no such thing as a 

458
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,320
natural driver, but there's 
people that have a natural 

459
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,640
aptitude for it. 
And, and I, I never found it 

460
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,960
difficult really to jump from 
one car to the other. 

461
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,200
To me, you know, I always think 
of cars as being animate 

462
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,720
objects. 
That's how I always try and 

463
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,440
think of it, that a car's alive 
and, and, and it has feelings 

464
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,560
and, and I try and teach the 
kids I coach to think like that.

465
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,440
And you know, you've got to feel
what the car needs and you do 

466
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,640
that quite quickly. 
You very quickly feel what a 

467
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,280
certain car needs and what it 
can do and what it can't do and 

468
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,680
you drive to the car's strength 
and you just don't try and force

469
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,240
it to do anything it doesn't 
want to do and feel and listen 

470
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,520
to it. 
And it's amazing how cars are 

471
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,320
all the same in the end. 
You know, the, the people over 

472
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,320
complicate the driving thing 
massively. 

473
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,400
You know the the principle of 
driving properly is the same no 

474
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,680
matter what it is. 
Even front wheel drive and rear 

475
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,640
wheel drive. 
There's, I mean, clearly there's

476
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,680
differences, but far less than 
you'd think. 

477
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,120
It's all down to fail, is it? 
Yeah, it's all about getting the

478
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,920
most out of the grip you've got.
Ultimately that's what it boils 

479
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,160
down to. 
It's about maximising the grips 

480
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,520
that you've got over the lap. 
Whatever that grip is, whether 

481
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,280
it's brand new set of tyres or 
whether it's slakes in the wet, 

482
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,000
you've still got to maximise 
whatever grip you've got and. 

483
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,360
Then becoming the pits size 
engineers. 

484
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,040
We want more, we never have 
enough. 

485
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,720
Do you? 
No, no, you can never have 

486
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:53,800
enough grip. 
Clearly. 

487
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:54,360
No. 
What was? 

488
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440
It like making that jump to 
Formula 3000, actually going 

489
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800
formative for the Renaults and 
and and then look obviously the 

490
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,160
F3000 then with bigger cars, 
power, big tyres. 

491
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,440
I mean, I just wanted to do 
that. 

492
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,480
I mean it was an amazing 
opportunity. 

493
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,840
I remember it was with Colin 
Bennett who helped me a lot. 

494
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,800
Many times Colin sadly passed 
away last year, but Colin and my

495
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,600
best friend at the time always 
Richard Dean always got helped a

496
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,280
lot. 
Hi Colin. 

497
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,560
And he offered me the chance to 
do a British. 

498
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,160
I mean, I wanted to do more. 
I didn't just want to do one 

499
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,040
race. 
I'd actually I'd won a chance to

500
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,120
test the 3000 car by the prize 
for former Renault. 

501
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,240
One of the prizes was the top 
three in the championship all 

502
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,960
got to test the former 3000 car.
At the time it even gave the 

503
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,160
Clio winners that same price. 
So we had a day at Donington and

504
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:53,120
it and it where we got to drive 
a magic 403,000 and it was wet 

505
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,920
that day I remember, which was 
frightened me to death but I 

506
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,040
loved it, it was incredible and 
I thought I've got to try and 

507
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,600
race one of these. 
So I did a deal with Colin. 

508
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,080
I remember it cost me £8000 and 
I didn't have £8000. 

509
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,280
I had £4000 that scraped 
together somehow and I gave him 

510
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,680
four and said can I pay the rest
lit and and did that one race at

511
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,960
Donnington. 
But that, yeah, I mean those 

512
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,720
cars were unbelievable. 
I was talking without sounding 

513
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960
like a name dropper. 
The team that I now run is GMW. 

514
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,400
It's a Ferrari team that does 
the LMS and and we've got Jimmy 

515
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,440
Bruni driving for us again. 
Yeah, he's one of the most 

516
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,680
talented guys I've ever had 
anything to do with. 

517
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,040
And Jimmy and I were talking 
about Formula 3000 because he 

518
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,960
did season the Formula 3000. 
Obviously I had it one race, but

519
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,360
those cars were unbelievable. 
There were loads of downforce, 

520
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,720
loads of power, H fan, gearbox, 
just a real raw racing car. 

521
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,480
I remember the first time I 
tested it, I only tested it 

522
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,400
once. 
I did a day at Silverstone Grand

523
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Prix circuit to get ready for 
Donington. 

524
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,240
That was like on the Tuesday and
I was going out and I was doing 

525
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,880
a few laps and I was, I thought 
I was doing all right. 

526
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,800
I'd done about 10 laps and I was
going through Mackie, Maggie's, 

527
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,880
Beckett's and I thought I was 
doing well and it was all on the

528
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,320
limit. 
And then somebody went around 

529
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,080
the outside of the end. 
I was going 30 miles an hour 

530
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,200
faster than me. 
And I thought, Jesus, I'm not 

531
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,040
anywhere near the limit. 
You know, I'm just driving to 

532
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,800
the mechanical grip, not aerial 
grip. 

533
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,080
And I had to really have a word 
with myself. 

534
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,840
And, and it was surreal because 
you could just go from somebody 

535
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,680
like me that had only ever 
driven mechanical cars to 

536
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:43,280
suddenly go to going into a 
corner 20% faster than it felt 

537
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:49,000
like was even remotely feasible.
So obviously the race that I did

538
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:55,240
at Donington, you've got the 
crane of curves and the old 

539
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:01,080
hairpin, but the crane of curves
is flat easily actually, but it 

540
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,480
doesn't feel like it should be 
flat to start with. 

541
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,200
And the first couple of times I 
did it flat, it literally you, 

542
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,080
you come out of the corner 
before your brain comes out of 

543
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400
the corner your. 
Head sort of falling off your 

544
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,960
shoulders for. 
The first time, I don't mean 

545
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,120
from that point of view, your 
brain just takes a while to 

546
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,080
catch up with what you've done. 
So that, but it's only I got my 

547
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,480
head rounded quite well and I 
had a decent race. 

548
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,240
I think I finished 6th or 7th, 
but I remember my fastest lap 

549
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,840
was was quite good actually. 
I think I was like third fastest

550
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,320
or fourth fastest in the race. 
It wasn't bad at all. 

551
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,920
So that was it. 
There was no way of doing 

552
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,920
anymore and so I didn't do 
anymore. 

553
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,640
And then coming into 1992, you 
get your first full year pro 

554
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,680
drive with the with the brand 
new 318 IS must have been quite 

555
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,400
an exciting time. 
New car, full season working 

556
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,200
alongside our menu. 
That must have been quite an 

557
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,320
exciting time. 
Yeah, I mean, again, it was, I 

558
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480
mean that really was for me. 
It was like wow, this is it now,

559
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,800
you know, first time I've got a 
full time programme. 

560
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,920
I was getting paid what for me 
was a fortune. 

561
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,120
I mean, looking back, it was it 
wasn't a fortune, but honestly I

562
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,600
couldn't believe somebody was 
going to pay me all that money 

563
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,680
to drive a racing car and to 
give me a brand new BMW Rd car. 

564
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,760
I mean, I've had one of those 
for two years already that I've 

565
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,760
got a company car. 
But yeah, I really thought, 

566
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,720
right, OK, now I've got a chance
to to make something of this. 

567
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,840
And I started to believe in it. 
But yeah, Menu was a great 

568
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,360
teammate. 
He was, he was obviously very, 

569
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,320
very good. 
But I often tell, I use these 

570
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,000
stories. 
There's, there's quite a few 

571
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000
stories, but I use some of the 
stories of the things I learned 

572
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,160
that year from Alan to try and 
teach some of the younger 

573
00:33:55,160 --> 00:34:01,080
drivers that I look after now 
because Alan had come through a 

574
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,160
completely different route. 
He'd obviously done Formula 

575
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,840
Ford, he'd be very good in 
Formula Ford, he'd done Formula 

576
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,159
Three, he'd been very, very good
in Formula Three and he had 

577
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:13,360
somehow got a BMWAG contract. 
So his contract was with 

578
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,280
Germany, right? 
He was a ABMW junior of some 

579
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,000
sort, but contracted to Germany 
and I was contracted to BMW 

580
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,679
Great Britain. 
Peter Walker. 

581
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,000
That was obviously brilliant at 
the time that ran. 

582
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,239
It would be great. 
Great. 

583
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,639
So I had a Pro Drive contract 
and he had an AG contract and 

584
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,560
there's a lot of things, but I 
remember very well, the first, 

585
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,360
the first race of the year, I 
out qualified Alan and then 

586
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,719
maybe the second race I out 
qualified Alan. 

587
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,480
And then I got a phone call from
Dave Richards. 

588
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,199
I really, really remember this 
and it's a Tim, Tim. 

589
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,320
Yeah, hi, Dave Richards. 
I said, oh, David, he said I've 

590
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,040
got a bit of a problem there, 
Tim. 

591
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,840
He said Alan, Venue's been on 
the phone and he's complained to

592
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:08,000
BMW that that we're favouriting 
you and because you're English 

593
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,240
you've got a better engine than 
he has and that's why you've out

594
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,000
qualified. 
And he said, I've got a lot of 

595
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840
grief from BMW and they're 
asking, you know, do you mind, 

596
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400
Tim, if, if we give Alan your 
edge? 

597
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,120
And of course, I said no, no, of
course. 

598
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,360
I mean, at the time I was still 
unbelievably grateful that I'd 

599
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,320
got an engine at all, you know? 
What I mean, yeah. 

600
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,480
So I wasn't going to admit and I
said no of course not David. 

601
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,160
I said darling David, they're 
all, all the engines are the 

602
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,680
same aren't they? 
There's no, there's no 

603
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,560
difference, exactly the same. 
There's no difference at all. 

604
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,280
All the engines are the same. 
I said well I'll just give him 

605
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,960
my engine David, I don't mind, 
he'll be fine. 

606
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:53,000
And he fucking out qualified me 
for the next 4 races now with my

607
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,680
engine. 
So, you know, and then and then 

608
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,400
he became sort of the superstar 
and I was the idiot that was 

609
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960
2/10 slow. 
How long did it take to demand 

610
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,600
your engine back? 
Well, I did and. 

611
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,920
That's the other lesson. 
I mean, I should have learned 

612
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,120
that from Dave Coyne years ago 
and for years earlier in Formula

613
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,440
Ford. 
When Dave Coyne complained to 

614
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,840
Frank Bradley that my engine was
better than Dave's at Brands 

615
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,640
Hatch and he complained on the 
Friday, he said, Frank, my 

616
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,000
engine's terrible, mate. 
He said he's like towing a 

617
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,640
fucking caravan. 
He said, oh, what? 

618
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:30,120
Tim's engine? 
So they gave him my engine and I

619
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,920
put it on pole with his engine 
and he said, what more fucking 

620
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:40,600
engine back, Frank? 
We gave him a Swapton yesterday 

621
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,920
or one more fucking engine back.
So I won the race the day after 

622
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,160
with his engine again. 
So, so I should have learned, 

623
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,800
but no. 
So that that really taught me 

624
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:56,160
that that Alan was, he'd arrived
there and he was confident and 

625
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,360
he was full of himself and he 
was totally at ease with 

626
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,680
everything. 
If you like, he had the 

627
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,560
confidence or arrogance or 
whatever you want to call it. 

628
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,880
So demand that engine. 
And I was still so much on the 

629
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,880
back foot mentally because I was
just grateful to be there at 

630
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,320
all. 
I didn't make a fuss and I just 

631
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,880
let him do that. 
And then I've often said to my 

632
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,400
drivers, you know, if you've got
there and you've got there on 

633
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,760
merit, then then you have to say
right here I am. 

634
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,920
And you can be a nice person 
'cause you. 

635
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,000
There's lots of examples I know 
now of drivers who are super 

636
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,880
nice in and out of the car. 
Everything they do is great, but

637
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,520
they have an inch to them when 
it comes. 

638
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,520
They'll demand something, 
they'll ring up, they'll be 

639
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,880
happy to say no, I want that new
tyre run or I want that engine 

640
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,000
or I want that engineer. 
And they just have a way of just

641
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,200
getting serious when it really 
matters. 

642
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,000
And you know, so that definitely
taught me. 

643
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,960
Being Alan's teammate definitely
taught me a lot. 

644
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,200
In that year as well, in 1992, 
Tim, a big sort of story that a 

645
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,040
lot of people remember is that 
not Kill You had Colin McRae 

646
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,120
join you for the weekend. 
Yeah. 

647
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,680
There's been a lot of stories in
the past that he maybe didn't 

648
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,120
take that weekend quite as 
seriously as perhaps yourself 

649
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,360
and Alan were. 
What, what was he like to drive 

650
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,680
with that weekend? 
Well, that. 

651
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,360
Was the week that Alan broke his
leg on the quad? 

652
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,800
That was the first that Alan, I 
remember our French engineer at 

653
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,760
the time coming running into the
Lotto. 

654
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,520
Alan, let's crash the quad. 
Come quick. 

655
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,160
Alan, let's crash the quad. 
No, I mean, I remember that. 

656
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,200
Really. 
We, I've told this story many, 

657
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,920
many times, but Colin was 
unbelievable that weekend and I 

658
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,840
don't remember him not taking it
seriously. 

659
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,160
I don't remember anything like 
that. 

660
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,880
I remember him turning up on his
motorbike, but no, he took, he 

661
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,320
took it seriously, as serious as
Colin probably ever took 

662
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,480
anything I suppose. 
But he wanted to do really well.

663
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,200
But the, the most amazing thing 
I remember about that was the 

664
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,360
first free practise on the 
Friday. 

665
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:13,360
It was wet and we came out of 
the pits and I was behind Colin 

666
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,480
and we sort of went around the 
first lap and I was still behind

667
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,280
Colin came up the hill at Knock 
Hill. 

668
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,000
I was behind Colin and I thought
I need to pass Colin soon. 

669
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,800
I don't want to be sat behind 
him obviously because Colin's 

670
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,560
having his first ever go. 
He shouldn't be on me. 

671
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,200
Well, it's turn one at not Hill.
And Colin went in first lap 

672
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,600
stupidly quick, like way, way 
too quick. 

673
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,080
And as soon as he turned in, the
thing snapped sideways and he he

674
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,960
had it like completely sideways 
to the track the first lap. 

675
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,120
And I backed right off of it's 
like because he's about to crash

676
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,440
and I don't want to crash into 
it. 

677
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,280
He somehow sorted it out and 
carried on and he dapped me by 

678
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,520
about 6 cars lengths because of 
that. 

679
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,160
So the rest of the lap caught 
him up again and then we went 

680
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,520
into that first corner again and
I'm thinking I'm still behind 

681
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Colin and they're all been 
watching going why is Tim still 

682
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,480
be at Colin? 
We went into the third corner 

683
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,560
again and he went in this time 
even faster, and this time he 

684
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,920
was. 
Clearly going to barrel roll so 

685
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,440
I backed right off again as a 
what a fucking idiot. 

686
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,880
And so now we sorted it out 
again. 

687
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,200
I didn't lose any time. 
The unit passed sideways and it 

688
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,720
carried on and then again it 
dropped me. 

689
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,440
I can never believe how much car
control he had. 

690
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,520
I remember 1 sitting because it 
was a fantastic time for me 

691
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,640
because obviously Colin was 
driving World Rally at the time.

692
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,520
I was driving touring cars. 
There was all the I can't 

693
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,560
remember. 
I went through the area of 

694
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,720
people like Ari Vatanen and all 
that not driving for the rally 

695
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:03,680
team and Prodrive would often 
call me to shake a rally car 

696
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,080
down because Colin and Ola were 
living in Monaco and places and 

697
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,600
they wanted the car shaking down
and they used to shake 

698
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,000
everything down at Myra. 
So they would always shake a car

699
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,480
down for every rally at Myra and
they would often ring me up 

700
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:23,400
because I was only two hours 
away in Bradford and say can you

701
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,560
come and shake a car down. 
So I used to get probably once 

702
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,680
every two or three weeks the 
chance to go to Myra and drive a

703
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,440
full on WRC car, which was 
amazing. 

704
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:35,600
Yeah. 
That's cool. 

705
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,640
So I once sat next to Colin. 
I remember at Myra there's a 

706
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,640
ride and handling track and 
Colin was there doing some sort 

707
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,280
of demonstrations or something 
and somebody said oh you should 

708
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,080
have a go with Colin next to 
Colin and I sat next to him 

709
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,400
going round. 
I don't know if you've ever been

710
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,360
there, but the ride and handling
course is all like moguls and 

711
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,600
then an off Cam, off camber 
corners. 

712
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,040
And then there's like a bridge 
thing that goes around and 

713
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,120
through and narrow. 
The bridge is only as wide as 

714
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,320
one car. 
It goes over the angst track and

715
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,240
then background. 
And I sat next to Colin. 

716
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,760
I've just got jeans and AT shirt
on a low face helmet and I strap

717
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:21,600
myself in and he set off and 
honestly, I was stunned by how 

718
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,800
his car control was and how much
it was bizarre how much car 

719
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,520
control they are. 
And he chunked it into this 

720
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,080
right-hander that goes all over 
the bridge. 

721
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,960
And I remember the front wheels 
grabbing on the curb that side 

722
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,440
and the rear wheels grabbing on 
the curb the other side. 

723
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,800
And somehow we didn't crash. 
And we got to the point where he

724
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,360
could go back to the truck or 
carry around for another lap. 

725
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,160
And I really wanted him to go 
back to the truck. 

726
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,600
He did another lap and yeah, he 
was. 

727
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,160
Colin was incredible and so I 
can't remember what results he 

728
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,960
had that week. 
I think he had it off with 

729
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,480
Matthew Neal in the end. 
Yes, yeah. 

730
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,200
You know, to say that he'd never
driven it before. 

731
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,960
He was, he was impressive that 
really good. 

732
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,960
Yeah, I think he finished 6th or
7th on the road, but then got 

733
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,760
dequeued after, after the 
incident with Matt and went and 

734
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,080
hid from Steve Neal basically I 
think who was not very happy at 

735
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,960
all. 
Your time with Prodrive, 

736
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,520
obviously there's a there's a 
hint of Mercedes, wasn't there? 

737
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,040
Yeah, it was what? 
How did that come about and 

738
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,000
disappear and what was the 
story? 

739
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,960
That was that was, that was a 
real shame. 

740
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,400
I mean, that was yeah. 
I mean, I remember it obviously 

741
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,240
very, very, very well because we
don't think the the Pro drive, 

742
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,240
sorry, the BMW period. 
And then David said to me that 

743
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,920
there was talk of Mercedes and 
that went on for a while and 

744
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,960
then that gathered momentum and 
then it was done. 

745
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:04,480
The deal, the deal was done. 
So it was going to be, it was 

746
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,840
going to be a 2 litre Mercedes. 
It was going to be built in 

747
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,960
Germany by AMG. 
No, but how at the time was the 

748
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,880
boss of AMG? 
It was going to be built there, 

749
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,480
Texaco, we're going to sponsor 
it. 

750
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,920
That deal was all done and 
basically the money was going to

751
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,960
be sort of 1/3 from Mercedes 
Great Britain, 1/3 from Mercedes

752
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,320
Germany and a third from Texaco 
basically. 

753
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,960
And David wanted me to be one of
the drivers. 

754
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,000
That was all done. 
And then we would have had 

755
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,160
whoever, I mean looking back, it
would have been a Mercedes 

756
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,120
factory driver at the time of 
sub saw. 

757
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:48,200
And so literally that was the 
end of what year was that? 

758
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:54,040
That was the end of 92 and and 
David kept me on. 

759
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,440
They kept me on for a year and 
they basically paid me a year 

760
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,720
and I did nothing. 
The idea was always that we were

761
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,320
going to start, we were going to
build the cars, we were going to

762
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,760
start testing halfway through 
the year, we were going to do 

763
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:12,280
the last two races of 93 with a 
view to do in the full year in 

764
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,080
94. 
And the programme just got put 

765
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,600
back and put back. 
But it was still definitely 

766
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,640
happening because I remember 
being at the artist, sorry, the 

767
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,680
Touring Car awards dinner at the
end of 93 sat on a table with 

768
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:35,000
David Richards and his wife and 
me and my girlfriend at the time

769
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,760
and somebody from Mercedes, 
Great Britain. 

770
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,000
And, you know, it was, it was 
still happening at that point. 

771
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:46,160
But then shortly after that it 
started to go a bit sort of 

772
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,880
wrong. 
And I don't know, I'll never 

773
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,120
know exactly the details. 
It was not, it was not something

774
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,800
I was involved with at all. 
But there was a disagreement 

775
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:03,160
between Norbert Howe sort of his
objectives and about the way 

776
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:04,960
that touring car racing was 
going. 

777
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,400
And I think that he was arguing 
that touring car racing was 

778
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,000
going to go 2 1/2 litre all 
around the world. 

779
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,040
And so Haug was telling Mercedes
and anybody else that would 

780
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,040
listen that that the rest of 
Europe would adopt the 2 1/2 

781
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,560
litre DTM regulations and he 
didn't want. 

782
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,680
I'm looking back, I understand 
quite clearly why he didn't want

783
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,440
Pro Drive to get A2 litre 
touring car deal, because two 

784
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,960
litre touring cars was clearly 
the way it was all going. 

785
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,360
And if Mercedes had started to 
get in bed with Pro Drive, they 

786
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,280
would have done a fantastic job 
I'm sure. 

787
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,000
And the two litre Mercedes 
touring car would have become 

788
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,280
the car to have and all the 
private teams would have wanted 

789
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,480
to buy them etcetera. 
And and how we wanted to control

790
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:57,840
it all. 
That's the only thing I can 

791
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,800
possibly think because there was
certainly no way that the rest 

792
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,240
of Europe was going to adopt 2 
1/2 litre rules. 

793
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,080
It was way too expensive. 
Sadly that Mercedes deal didn't 

794
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:13,120
happen and I'm guessing you were
looking to get back on the grid 

795
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,000
for 94 and you did with Toyota. 
Was that your only option? 

796
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,720
Did you have any other options 
to get back on the grid with 

797
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:23,720
anyone else at the time? 
Yeah. 

798
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,120
I mean, that was a real 
difficult area because I'd gone 

799
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,480
through that whole year thinking
that I was going to not only OK,

800
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,200
I was having a year off which I 
didn't particularly enjoy not 

801
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,480
racing, but I was still doing 
bits just for fun. 

802
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,920
I was doing bits of front wheel 
drive sort of one make stuff 

803
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,480
just for a bit of fun, just to 
keep my hand in racing. 

804
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,480
But basically I thought I was 
coming back with Mercedes. 

805
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:57,040
So suddenly when I learned that 
it wasn't happening, I think it 

806
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,960
was probably about November time
when I got told it wasn't 

807
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,040
happening and that David would 
so obviously released me from my

808
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,560
contract and stuff, which was, 
which was a shame. 

809
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,480
I mean, fair play to David. 
He paid me for a year basically 

810
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,000
to do nothing. 
So but then I had to try and 

811
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,600
rescue my career. 
And I remember I talked to 

812
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,680
everybody and all the deals had 
been done by that. 

813
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,040
Everybody, everybody got their 
deals done. 

814
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,240
So I spoke to all the 
manufacturers and at the time I 

815
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:36,560
remember Ford and Toyota and 
somebody else, can't remember 

816
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,840
who else, maybe Peugeot or 
somebody were looking at running

817
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,960
a third car. 
But none of them could run a 

818
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:52,160
third car without some funding. 
So suddenly I was back to where 

819
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,120
I've been years before where I 
was having to find money, which 

820
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:00,280
and you know, I hadn't had to 
find any money for four years, 

821
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,360
been getting paid. 
And suddenly the only way that I

822
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,800
could keep my career in touring 
cars going was to find some 

823
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,760
money to help. 
I mean, it's only help fund it. 

824
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,840
There was still going to be 
money from Toyota. 

825
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,080
And I quickly got to the point 
where the phone deal was so 

826
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,400
likely to work because that was 
going to be too much money. 

827
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,360
But Toyota were prepared to do 
something. 

828
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,080
But I remember I had to find 300
grand. 

829
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:30,560
I had to find 300,000 lbs and I 
had three months to do it. 

830
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,440
Literally I had from November 
till February, let's say maybe 

831
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,640
the beginning of March. 
But let's say February, I had to

832
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:46,000
find 300 granting sponsors and I
don't know how I did it looking 

833
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:51,720
back, but I did a genuine found 
300,000 lbs of sponsorship, 

834
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,640
which was amazing. 
And, and I managed to get the 

835
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,400
last, you know, I've got, let's 
say I've got 200 grand. 

836
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:02,400
I managed to get the last 100 
grand from a local company at 

837
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,840
the end of must be the end of 
February, beginning of March 

838
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,840
because I remember we had a week
to get everything organised to 

839
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,600
be at the press launch. 
So that that, you know, bear in 

840
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,680
mind that was when 1990, 
beginning of 1990, also 30 years

841
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,920
ago. 
Yeah, to find 3300 grand was a 

842
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,440
lot of money. 
Yeah. 

843
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,080
That, that basically kept me, 
that kept my career alive. 

844
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,840
Without that, then it wouldn't 
be the touring car. 

845
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,840
That thing would have been over.
So that, that that was great 

846
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,200
that I managed to do the year 
with, with Will and Juliet's 

847
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,280
third car. 
Yes, yes, yeah, that that that 

848
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,680
car was stunningly beautiful in 
that Castro livery. 

849
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,680
It's one of my favourite touring
cars to look at, but not quite 

850
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,160
on the performance level. 
It probably not one of your 

851
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,200
favourite cars ever. 
No, it's a shame, isn't it, 

852
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,200
Because I mean, it was the same 
in 95, which I'm sure we'll come

853
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,600
on to, but the, the the car 
itself was probably very good. 

854
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,080
It just, it was usually, if I 
remember, it was just the 

855
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,000
aerodynamics that we're not good
then. 

856
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,680
So I don't know why quite, but 
Toyota were never able to 

857
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,160
homologate a front splitter of 
any sort. 

858
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,320
And and I don't think it was 
much more complicated than that.

859
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,320
So we, we, we never, we never 
had enough front end basically 

860
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:29,920
all the way through that period.
As she mentioned, in 1995, he 

861
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,840
stayed at Toyota and ran a full 
season for the team alongside 

862
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,520
Julian Bailey. 
Was that again, was that similar

863
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,000
to 94 where you needed to bring 
funding or was that a situation 

864
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,000
where because it was in one of 
the the main two cars that it 

865
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:47,960
was a fully professional drive 
that year? 

866
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,920
Yeah. 
That was back to sort of, if you

867
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,960
like how it should be. 
So yeah, no, it's very good. 

868
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,920
So Paul Risbridger at the time 
was great and he was happy with 

869
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,440
what I'd done as the team mate 
with the three. 

870
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:07,480
So when Will moved on to 
Renault, Paul gave me a a 

871
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,760
professional drive again 
alongside Julian, so I was back 

872
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,000
to not having to bring any money
and getting a salary. 

873
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,160
So it was it. 
It was a big relief for me to be

874
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,440
back in that situation. 
You were team mates with Julian 

875
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,920
that year and he's quite, he's 
quite a character, isn't he? 

876
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,400
Oh. 
Yeah, I mean, but again, you 

877
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,440
know, let's not let's, let's be 
fair, Julian, it was bloody 

878
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:40,240
good. 
Like, and I mean, you know, he 

879
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,040
obviously, you know, he taught 
me a lot of things, like told me

880
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,040
all about Jack Daniels and he 
taught me all about all the 

881
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,600
lights and he told all sorts of 
stories. 

882
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,680
But he can't take anything away 
from Julian. 

883
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,680
He was super talent, really 
good. 

884
00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,880
And, and again, somebody who 
taught me a lot about how to 

885
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:09,160
manipulate a situation to me, 
Julian was great, fantastic in 

886
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,040
every respect, Good fun. 
I got hungry with him. 

887
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:16,000
But again, he had that edge to 
him where when he needed to be 

888
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,240
hard and he needed to ask for 
what he wanted and he needed to 

889
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,120
put his foot down, if you like. 
He had that. 

890
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:28,360
He had that edge to him, enabled
him to get a team around him and

891
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,440
and be there. 
You know, he was a star. 

892
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,520
It was Formula One. 
I mean, Julie and I remember had

893
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,720
got himself into Formula One and
I said by yeah, by crook and 

894
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,760
finding money and being super 
talented as well, you know, get 

895
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,720
Julie and won the festival and, 
you know, he he was good. 

896
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,240
But yeah, great character, great
fun. 

897
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,360
Everything about that year was 
very, very enjoyable. 

898
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,120
Other than the best result 
either of us had all year was a 

899
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,280
fourth place. 
You. 

900
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,360
Know really bad, but again, I 
remember at the end of that year

901
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,800
we did a test just out of 
interest. 

902
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,920
Then the literally the team made
a front splitter that was like 

903
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,520
another two inches deeper. 
It was just a little simple 

904
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,000
addition at the end of the year 
and we just did a day at 

905
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:19,240
Silverstone just to try it and 
we immediately unlocked so much 

906
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:21,200
speed in the car. 
You know, it didn't. 

907
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,080
There really wasn't much wrong 
with the car at all other than 

908
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:31,640
it didn't have a front split. 
So at the end of that season 

909
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:33,480
then obviously that left you 
pretty much without a drive, 

910
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,080
didn't it? 
So did you then become a test 

911
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:39,720
drive for Voxel at that point? 
Yeah, so that's that was my 

912
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,080
probably the only the only thing
that I ever, you know, people 

913
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,120
say, what do you regret? 
The only thing I ever regret was

914
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,040
over that winter was the year 
when Audi were coming into 

915
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,840
British touring cars. 
And that was the big story. 

916
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,520
The Audi were going to come to 
do British touring cars and they

917
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,520
were going to have Frank Beeler 
and they wanted a British driver

918
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,400
to drive alongside Frank. 
And various people were 

919
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,920
mentioned. 
But I was, if you like, in a way

920
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,800
and all an obvious choice. 
You know, I was the only person 

921
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:19,280
that was not contracted, 
somebody that had a chance of 

922
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,400
doing a good job. 
And I really wanted that drive, 

923
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:28,960
you know, to, I was very, very, 
very aware that getting the Audi

924
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:34,640
drive would be a dream come 
true, you know, and I push to 

925
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:39,280
try and get it again, looking 
back, I probably didn't my, my 

926
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,480
version of pushing was probably 
not pushy enough, but I tried. 

927
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:48,040
And when I got to the point 
where I had an interview and I, 

928
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,360
I went for the job interview 
with people from Audi. 

929
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,680
And that again, is one of the 
things that I use as an example 

930
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,560
of what to say to young drivers 
that I look after now. 

931
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:04,760
I handled that situation 
terribly looking back, because 

932
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,920
I, I was very conscious that the
people out here were probably 

933
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,600
thinking, why is this guy just 
had a year in a Toyota where his

934
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,320
best result was fourth place? 
So I thought, they're probably 

935
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,280
thinking, I'd be thinking, well,
you're obviously not that good 

936
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,240
if you've only finished fourth. 
And so I wrote a report. 

937
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:30,080
I remember spent ages writing a 
detailed report of the whole 

938
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,960
season about each race and what 
happened and what I thought 

939
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,720
almost gone wrong, if you like, 
and why we are in an off place. 

940
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,880
And I remember that day I was 
also really I had. 

941
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,240
I had the man flew of some sort,
but I was properly that. 

942
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,600
I mean, if it had been anything 
else you wouldn't have got, he'd

943
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,600
have rung up and made apologies.
But there was no way I was going

944
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,120
to miss that. 
But I was drugged up. 

945
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,160
I was on paracetamols and LEM 
sips and God knows what else and

946
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,680
went for the meeting. 
But I took this with part that I

947
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:08,440
had written and I went and I sat
in front of them people and I 

948
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,240
did said what I thought was the 
right thing to say and 

949
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:13,000
everything. 
And somebody must have asked me 

950
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,960
about my season and I said, 
well, actually I've written a 

951
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,840
report and I went into my little
briefcase or whatever and I had 

952
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,080
this report and I, I sort of 
gave them some information from 

953
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:28,400
that report. 
And then they also interviewed 

954
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,560
John Bincliffe at the time. 
So when I left there, I saw John

955
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,800
in the waiting room and I said, 
hello, what are you doing here? 

956
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,560
He said, well, same as you come 
to try and get a job. 

957
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,840
Well, then told me that they 
were going to interview somebody

958
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:46,240
from Fiestas, but they'd said 
they were seriously looking at 

959
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,600
that. 
They were seriously looking at 

960
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,600
me sort of thing. 
So I didn't really worry too 

961
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,800
much about it. 
But Long story short, John got 

962
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,840
the drive and I didn't. 
And, and I later asked John 

963
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,400
Wickham, who was the team 
manager at the time, God love 

964
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:03,880
him. 
John's not with us anymore. 

965
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,320
But I asked John, because I've 
gone well with John all the way 

966
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,240
through the process of getting 
the interview and getting to 

967
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:12,960
that stage. 
I've got on really well with 

968
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,200
him. 
And I asked him just be honest 

969
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,640
with me. 
Why didn't I get it? 

970
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,160
And he said, to be honest, you 
know, nothing much. 

971
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:25,360
But one of the things was that 
that report you wrote, they just

972
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:30,320
saw as a list of excuses. 
And he said you didn't need to 

973
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,400
do that at all. 
You know, you were there on 

974
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,640
merit. 
They wouldn't have even been 

975
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,720
talking to you if they didn't 
think you were good enough. 

976
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,880
And all you had to do really was
go in and just be nice and tell 

977
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,600
him you were going to finish 
sending to Frank and you'd have 

978
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,800
probably got the drive or you'd 
have had a better chance of 

979
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,920
getting it. 
So that again, taught me that's,

980
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,480
that's the only thing that I 
think, shit, I could have done 

981
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:53,880
that better. 
I could have handled that 

982
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,600
better. 
Rolling back just into 95 again,

983
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:02,760
Tim, one of the probably biggest
moments of that year in terms of

984
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:07,480
talking points was that 
horrendous weather tie at Brands

985
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:13,160
Hatch in the rain where you 
ended up having quite a 

986
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,600
spectacular incident barrel roll
in the car. 

987
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,040
What were those conditions like?
Because it looked terrible. 

988
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,840
It looked like your windscreen 
was Mr Dart. 

989
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,200
Was it just a situation of the 
of the thing I? 

990
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,400
Do remember, I mean that was my 
problem. 

991
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,680
That race definitely, I mean the
race actually, I think we were 

992
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,240
reasonably quick that day. 
I don't, I think the pace was 

993
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,760
actually not bad at all in the 
wet. 

994
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,560
But yeah, it was one of those 
where the windscreen would just 

995
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,400
mist up and it would just get 
start off at the top and just 

996
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,080
get lower and lower and lower. 
And I got to the point where I 

997
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,680
was literally just looking 
through sort of an inch at the 

998
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:59,120
bottom of the windscreen and I 
literally couldn't see anything.

999
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,120
And. 
And yeah, I just missed the 

1000
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,120
breaking point coming into 
clearways and just went straight

1001
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:10,320
in and landed up on the roof. 
But I think this the Rydell, I 

1002
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,960
think Ricard crashed. 
Yeah, yeah, he did the same, 

1003
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:14,400
yeah. 
Same reason. 

1004
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,880
And I just couldn't see anything
nowadays, you know, cars have 

1005
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,320
heated screens and all sorts of 
things, you know, and it's, it 

1006
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,160
just doesn't happen now like it 
used to happen. 

1007
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,880
People would put rain X on and 
fairy liquid and God knows what 

1008
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,200
else but it still used to mist 
up. 

1009
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:38,280
Given how terrible those 
conditions were that day, do you

1010
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,480
think the decision by Pierre 
Armonier to cost the drivers in 

1011
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,760
front of the main grandson was 
perhaps a bit harsh? 

1012
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,800
Because it did seem really 
difficult for you guys that day 

1013
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,400
and here perhaps seemed a bit 
upset at the fact there were 

1014
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,880
lots of incidents. 
Yeah, I mean, it was funny 

1015
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,240
because if you look back, I mean
you look back at who that group 

1016
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,440
of drivers were, you know, there
was some of the best drivers in 

1017
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,440
the world on on that grid. 
And, you know, people, you think

1018
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,480
back to that era, people like 
Ricard, for instance, Ricard 

1019
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,280
Rydell, those, I mean, so many 
incredibly good drivers. 

1020
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,040
And so, yeah, the fact that we 
were all basically out of 

1021
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,040
control. 
But yeah, the conditions were 

1022
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,000
bad. 
They wouldn't, they would 

1023
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:29,040
probably not have run the race. 
No, you know, now there's so 

1024
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,680
much more risk averse than they 
were then. 

1025
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,720
I mean, it was, it was bad, but 
I mean, nobody thought at the 

1026
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,400
time it was bad. 
I don't remember anybody saying 

1027
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,040
it's too bad to race or 
anything. 

1028
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:48,680
I've often wondered about that 
95 season is obviously it was as

1029
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,520
you've said about the, the, the 
struggles with the, the front 

1030
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,920
splitter of the car. 
And towards the end of the year 

1031
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,840
at Snetterton, the team debuted 
a a brand new right hand drive 

1032
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,960
car, which you drove at 
Snetterton and then Julian got 

1033
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,160
for the rest of the year. 
And the car did seem to take a 

1034
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,720
significant step forward. 
It seemed to be a bit too late 

1035
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,800
for Toyota to sort of make 
change their mind and commit to 

1036
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:16,360
96. 
Is that, is that car maybe a bit

1037
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:22,080
of a missed opportunity that had
Toyota gone into 96 with the the

1038
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,000
new car, with the front splitter
and all that, it could have been

1039
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,720
a much better year, yeah. 
I mean, I raced that car. 

1040
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:31,720
I remember that was a car that 
Tom. 

1041
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:36,360
There was a fundamental 
difference because our cars 

1042
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:41,600
before then were built by TTE in
Germany, and that car was a 

1043
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:46,920
Tom's car that was built in the 
Snetterton, but not Snetterton, 

1044
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,560
but just down the road from 
Snetterton. 

1045
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,240
And it was designed and built by
the Tom, by the people at Tom's.

1046
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,360
That car was immediately better.
I remember driving it at 

1047
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,160
Snetterton for the first time 
and saying this is a lot better.

1048
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:07,560
And then we tested it somewhere 
and then I raced it once and we 

1049
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:09,960
had a really good weekend. 
I can't remember exactly where 

1050
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,960
we finished or whatever, but I 
remember as being very 

1051
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,440
competitive, definitely a lot 
better. 

1052
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,560
And unfortunately then, and this
is another good example of what 

1053
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,720
I mean about being forthright 
and strong and all of the words 

1054
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,760
you want to use. 
Julian basically pulled rank and

1055
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,360
insisted on having that car. 
So, but yeah, that, that, that 

1056
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:35,720
was a there was still talk at 
the end of that year of Toyota 

1057
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,160
continue it and obviously 
everybody wants it, but you've 

1058
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,840
got to remember touring cars. 
I know you guys know it. 

1059
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,760
You, you, you've obviously 
studied touring cars all the 

1060
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,960
time, but it was just starting 
to get ridiculously expensive. 

1061
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:54,320
Yeah, I remember when I never 
saw exactly the invoices, but 

1062
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,040
I've got the figures and I'm 
sure I'm not far around. 

1063
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:02,320
I remember in 95 we had 3.3 
million and we spent the year 

1064
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,280
complaining that we didn't have 
enough money because Vauxhall 

1065
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,360
and Renault and people were 
spending five. 

1066
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,320
So you know, people say now 
touring cars is expensive, but I

1067
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:16,160
think a season with W Surrey is 
probably 650 or 700. 

1068
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:24,640
And I think 30 years ago we were
spending 1.7 on one car, 3.32. 

1069
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,880
It was completely out of 
control. 

1070
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:30,840
And I mean, obviously it got to 
the point, didn't it, where I 

1071
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,280
think Ford spent nine and a half
million or something in 99. 

1072
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,080
It's quite hard to get your head
round that people would have 

1073
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:41,200
spent that much money. 
You can easily see why it's 

1074
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,360
never going to be repeated. 
And we always say this time and 

1075
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,320
time again, you know, it was 
such a good era. 

1076
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,440
From. 
To from a fan perspective, the 

1077
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,000
race and everything about it, 
the manufacturing involvement 

1078
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,640
and you're just never going to. 
I just can't ever see it being 

1079
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:57,080
repeated in any way. 
It's never going to be like that

1080
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:58,440
again, is it? 
And then we just don't. 

1081
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,280
People ask me all the time, why 
is it like it? 

1082
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,640
But we just don't, you know, 
Again, using the racing car. 

1083
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,320
Show us the barometer, you know,
every manufacturer. 

1084
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:08,800
And a big stand there, didn't 
they? 

1085
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,600
Every manufacturer was up. 
If a manufacturer couldn't 

1086
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,200
afford to do British touring 
cars, they were still doing 

1087
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,840
something else in British 
motorsport. 

1088
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,200
There was rally programmes. 
The manufacturers are people at 

1089
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,760
Vauxhall and Peugeot and Renault
and rally programmes as well. 

1090
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,760
You know you've got a rally 
programme. 

1091
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,480
Nowadays you never see any of 
it. 

1092
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,800
Yeah, and like going back to the
Renault thing we said earlier 

1093
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,880
on, you look at how big it was 
in terms of the the number of 

1094
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,680
former Renault single seaters, 
but look how like the Renault 

1095
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,520
Clio championship was as well. 
Like, you know, the Renault's 

1096
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:44,400
presence around a BTCC weekend 
was just astronomical, wasn't 

1097
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:45,160
it? 
Yeah. 

1098
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:46,920
Fantastic. 
They were everywhere. 

1099
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,520
Tim Jackson did such a good job,
didn't he, back in the day. 

1100
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,920
And it's, it's, I mean, 
everybody looks at things with 

1101
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:56,600
rose coloured spectacles like I 
say. 

1102
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:01,280
But you look back then how much 
money there was in mod sport in 

1103
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,080
England, it was it was so much 
more than there is now. 

1104
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:16,320
Your last drive in a super tour,
unless I'm wrong, was at the end

1105
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,720
of season 1997 Tourist Trophy at
Donnington where you race the 

1106
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,320
Mint Motorsport Cavalier. 
Yeah. 

1107
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:27,440
That that was obviously the 
championship winning car in 95. 

1108
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,840
Could you see why a car like 
that had won the championship 

1109
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:36,280
the year you were in that Toyota
where it was, you know, a bit 

1110
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,000
hit and miss at the start of the
year? 

1111
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,520
Well, you've, you've got so I 
had a much better insight than 

1112
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,720
that. 
So when I went, the whole 95 

1113
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,800
thing finished and and there 
wasn't a 96. 

1114
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,720
You asked earlier on what 
happened after that and I was 

1115
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:57,000
trying to get the Audi drive. 
What I did managed to get was 

1116
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:02,480
the Vauxhall development deal 
basically, which was actually, I

1117
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,960
was actually contracted to all. 
So Ray Malik at the time were 

1118
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,800
building all the touring cars 
for all the Vectra touring cars 

1119
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,760
for the whole of Europe. 
And I think at the time there 

1120
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,440
was something like 11 or 12 
Vectors racing in British, 

1121
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,240
sorry, in various European 
Championships. 

1122
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,200
And I did all the development of
that car. 

1123
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:29,560
So I thought there was a drive 
going which, you know, OK, I 

1124
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,920
wasn't going to get a race seat,
but I was really hoping that I 

1125
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,760
would get something to try and 
stay in Super Touring and 

1126
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,840
Vauxhall. 
I had this drive going through 

1127
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,560
Ray Malik. 
So I did a test and I remember 

1128
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:48,440
did initial initially a test 
against Alan Mcnish for this 

1129
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:52,880
drive. 
And Long story short, we tested 

1130
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,840
once or twice. 
I've managed to get the drive 

1131
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:02,680
and I did all, I used to be 
testing literally two or three 

1132
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:07,240
days a week every week in 96 
town at Pembrey and all over the

1133
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:09,640
place. 
And then you know, and we used 

1134
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,960
to in the, if you look back at 
the results, I don't know if you

1135
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:15,680
can ever find the book, we also 
used to do the official tests. 

1136
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,880
So when there was an official 
Turka test on the Thursday or 

1137
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,000
the Friday or whenever they 
were, we would often do the 

1138
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:27,120
official test as well. 
And we were often really quick. 

1139
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:31,399
So I would be running a third 
Vectra and throughout that, so 

1140
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:35,000
throughout that season, I 
remember the first time I drove 

1141
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:39,840
the Cavalier to do some 
comparative tests with the new 

1142
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,800
Vectra. 
And as soon as I drove that 

1143
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,800
Cavalier, I just couldn't 
believe how good it was. 

1144
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:52,560
That car was so well sorted. 
It was, it was an absolute 

1145
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:53,800
pleasure to drive. 
It was. 

1146
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,520
So I remember it just being so 
smooth. 

1147
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,200
That was one of the things I 
couldn't believe. 

1148
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,319
There was no vibrations in it. 
There was no real noise. 

1149
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,720
There was no way. 
It was obviously so well 

1150
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,880
engineered that it was 
beautifully smooth and it just 

1151
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:10,520
did everything so well. 
The gear change was lovely up 

1152
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:14,359
and down the gears was so nice. 
It it just breaks how you want 

1153
01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:16,279
it. 
The most amazing thing about it 

1154
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:18,720
was it just didn't really have 
understeer. 

1155
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,840
I mean clearly in the end, all 
front wheel drive cars are going

1156
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:26,880
to have some understeer, but it 
was so neutral without having 

1157
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,560
scary oversteer. 
That was amazing because you can

1158
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,000
make, really you can make any 
car front wheel drive, you can 

1159
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,960
make it oversteer, but it's 
really hard to make it oversteer

1160
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:43,120
nicely and predictably and 
controllably, especially on cold

1161
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:47,479
tyres. 
But somehow they'd got it so 

1162
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:52,600
that you had a car that for all 
intents and purposes felt like 

1163
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:55,440
it was rear wheel drive. 
I remember it was so well 

1164
01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:59,040
balanced, that car. 
It was a real credit to Mary 

1165
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,080
Malik and all the people there 
at the time that built that car.

1166
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:04,120
It was incredible. 
And I don't think the Vectra was

1167
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,040
actually ever quite as good. 
I mean, the Vectra was very 

1168
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,560
good, but I don't think it was 
ever as good as the Cavalier to 

1169
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,560
somebody. 
I think there was a, a 

1170
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,280
difference somewhere in a 
wheelbase or something that I've

1171
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,640
had it explained to me and I 
can't remember the detail, but 

1172
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,360
there was something that stopped
it being possible to get it 

1173
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,840
quite as good as, so that was, 
that was an era also to sort of 

1174
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:29,240
finish the Super Touring star 
story where I really thought I 

1175
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:33,640
was going to get the Vauxhall 
Drive then, you know, so I knew 

1176
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:39,640
that at the end of 96 that 
either Cleland or Thompson were 

1177
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:45,680
going to move on and I, I was 
very much in the running to get 

1178
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,840
the drive for whichever 1 left 
because those two have fallen 

1179
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,480
out in lumps. 
One of them was going to have to

1180
01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:55,600
leave and. 
And I thought I was going to get

1181
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,160
the drive. 
I really thought I was going to 

1182
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:02,080
get the drive. 
But that was the time that AAA 

1183
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:04,760
got the Vauxhall deal. 
Yeah. 

1184
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:11,280
And Derek Warrick owned AAA and 
Derek gave himself a drive 

1185
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,560
instead of giving me one. 
He did, but. 

1186
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,640
We did have a test. 
I remember as having a test with

1187
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,400
me and Tom Christensen and Derek
and various people tested for 

1188
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,320
that. 
Derek was the slowest, but he 

1189
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:30,400
still got the drive and I got to
know Derek a lot actually as 

1190
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:32,440
well later. 
And again, what a fantastic 

1191
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:33,720
bloke he is. 
You know Derek. 

1192
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,560
Yes, very, very nice. 
Such a good bloke. 

1193
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:41,160
He he, he helped me massively in
many ways, but one of the ways I

1194
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:44,200
had a driver that I managed 
later called James Walker from 

1195
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:47,120
Jersey. 
And Derek helped me massively 

1196
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:51,000
with raising money for James. 
And he actually put some money 

1197
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,400
in a lot of money himself into 
James. 

1198
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,040
So yeah, really, really good. 
Look, I like Derek a lot. 

1199
01:11:57,440 --> 01:11:59,560
Yeah, yeah, no, Derek's the top 
man. 

1200
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,040
Yeah, absolutely. 
So there you go. 

1201
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:04,960
That's a little bit of my Super 
Touring car. 

1202
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,640
Talking sort of post your Super 
Touring career, you carved a 

1203
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:16,160
very, very successful career in 
GT and endurance racing as well 

1204
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:21,720
that started in 97 in the 
British GT Championship in the 

1205
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:25,520
GT2 category with Steve O'Rourke
and a Porsche. 

1206
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,960
You ended up winning the GT2 
title that year. 

1207
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:36,040
Was that did you find that quite
an easy adaptation in to GT 

1208
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,520
racing from the Super Tours or 
was it just something that came 

1209
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,720
naturally to you? 
Were instantly on the pace by 

1210
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:45,680
the looks of it. 
I mean, to be honest, yes, that 

1211
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,680
sounds nobody's ever asked me 
that question as such. 

1212
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:52,640
But yes, I think, you know, 
British GT at the time was not 

1213
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,520
the same level as British tour 
cars. 

1214
01:12:54,640 --> 01:13:00,000
No British touring car. 
British touring cars in 949596 

1215
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,640
was serious, won't it? 
I mean that was. 

1216
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,120
Proper. 
Proper motor racing. 

1217
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,760
It was an incredible level, 
driving wise, engineering wise, 

1218
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,800
budget wise. 
I mean the whole thing was full 

1219
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:19,160
on, you know, every last 10th 
was you know, then I went into 

1220
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:22,480
GT racing and, and actually, 
yes, you know, to be honest, 

1221
01:13:22,480 --> 01:13:26,920
British GT at the time was not a
particularly mega level at all. 

1222
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,720
And I remember I didn't know, I 
mean Steve was amazing guy. 

1223
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,040
So obviously you know who Steve 
was. 

1224
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:39,200
Steve was manager of Pink Floyd,
you know, and he'd, he'd, you 

1225
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,040
know, Steve had managed think 
Floyd since they were all at 

1226
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:46,760
universities together when they 
were all in their teens and they

1227
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:48,680
were all mates and they didn't 
have a manager. 

1228
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:53,560
And Steve worked washing pots at
their local working men's club. 

1229
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,000
And Steve got them, managed to 
get them a couple of gigs 

1230
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:00,240
playing in the pub and where he 
worked. 

1231
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,080
And so they said, well, do you 
want to be our manager? 

1232
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:08,800
And so Steve was Pink Floyd's 
manager from that day all the 

1233
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,440
way through everything that Pink
Floyd did, all the way through 

1234
01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:16,200
the Brick in the Wall tour and 
all well to write the day they 

1235
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,840
stopped. 
So I mean, Steve was an amazing 

1236
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:24,400
bloke, fascinating bloke that 
taught me again so lot, so, so 

1237
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:26,120
much. 
He was one of the people that I 

1238
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:30,280
always think of as being really 
influential in my life. 

1239
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:32,880
He was like a second dad to me, 
really. 

1240
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:37,000
I learned so much from Steve and
some of the stories. 

1241
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:41,640
Steve, I mean, Can you imagine 
what it was like in the 70s and 

1242
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:47,640
80s being Pink Floyd, you know, 
going around doing tours in 

1243
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:48,240
America? 
He says. 

1244
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,160
What, you were like fucking 
Vikings. 

1245
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:53,160
We used to go into the people, 
he says. 

1246
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:56,440
We used to go into the towns and
say, give us all your money, 

1247
01:14:56,440 --> 01:14:59,280
give us all your women, he says.
We'd take all the money and all 

1248
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,360
the women and then we'd fuck off
to the next town. 

1249
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,480
I mean, I it was long before 
there was any political 

1250
01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:12,400
correctness going on and, and it
was just debauchery. 

1251
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:16,880
I remember saying to Steve, he 
said something about not being 

1252
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:18,600
healthy. 
And I said, Steve, I've never 

1253
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,840
met anybody as healthy as you 
because he was the first person 

1254
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:27,480
I knew that ate organic food. 
And I remember Steve, you know, 

1255
01:15:27,480 --> 01:15:29,960
I've been always having organic 
this, that and the other. 

1256
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:31,880
And I said, Steve, you're so 
healthy. 

1257
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:35,400
You eat organic tomatoes, he 
said. 

1258
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:40,120
Tim, he's got to eat a lot of 
fucking organic tomatoes to undo

1259
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:45,920
all the shit I put my nose. 
Because you stayed with him 

1260
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,640
obviously through a lot of your 
career in GT. 

1261
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:53,520
So you then ended up stepping up
to the McLaren F1 GTR as well. 

1262
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,840
I mean, what was that like? 
I mean, that's such an iconic 

1263
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,520
car, isn't it? 
I mean, that must have been, I 

1264
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:00,600
mean, I know you've driven the 
GT2, which was fast. 

1265
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,760
And I think my experience when I
went from 2 later touring cars 

1266
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,080
into GT race and I just couldn't
get get over the speed 

1267
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:11,480
difference, the break in the 
grip, the talk, everything about

1268
01:16:11,480 --> 01:16:13,160
it. 
So for you to go into an even 

1269
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:17,160
bigger step, you know, into to 
those that must have been like 

1270
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:19,640
the. 
McLaren was was bizarre. 

1271
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,840
It's funny because that's become
such an iconic car. 

1272
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:26,720
And actually that's the car that
everybody remembers me for as 

1273
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:30,560
much as anything. 
And we finished fourth at Le 

1274
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:33,960
Mans overall in that car, which 
was bizarre. 

1275
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:39,840
I mean, so Steve, myself and 
Bill Ormolan went to Le Mans and

1276
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,240
we were the only private car in 
the top 20, and somehow we 

1277
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,440
finished fourth overall in among
factory Porsches, factory 

1278
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,720
Nissans, factory panels, factory
everything. 

1279
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:57,080
But yeah, that was that car was 
just such a pleasure to drive. 

1280
01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:03,000
It was so much power, so much 
traction, handled incredibly 

1281
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,120
well, super reliable, 
bulletproof everything. 

1282
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,760
I never remember ever having any
problems at all. 

1283
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,520
And you know, I remember racing 
that car around Brands Grand 

1284
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,160
Prix round, Alton Park, long 
circuit Alton in the McLaren, 

1285
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:22,840
the one that the old Cup there, 
I remember we had so many good 

1286
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,560
battles. 
But it racing with Steve was 

1287
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,600
incredible because Steve, God 
love him. 

1288
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,240
And again, I really do love 
Steve. 

1289
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,880
He was amazing and he gave me so
many opportunities. 

1290
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:38,160
But he was 4 seconds a lap off 
the pace, but somehow you could 

1291
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,480
still manage because there's 
always be a safety car or 

1292
01:17:41,480 --> 01:17:44,200
something. 
So we start Steve and he would 

1293
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:48,240
drop back and then there'd be a 
safety car if we were lucky. 

1294
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,480
And then I could get in and I 
could come through and be a 

1295
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:54,240
hero. 
But you look back at British GT 

1296
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,720
in those days, there was like 3 
McLaren. 

1297
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:01,600
There was one point when there 
was 3 Mclarens, two or three GT1

1298
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:07,240
Porsches and a couple of Listers
and some real serious cars. 

1299
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,120
It was, it was a real again, it 
was a really, really good area 

1300
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,320
of British GT. 
But yeah, to drive that car, to 

1301
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:17,960
do Le Monde, to finish 4th in 
that car, you know, the most 

1302
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:22,000
amazing story about that car 
though, and this really is 

1303
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,600
something that I do think about 
pretty much every day. 

1304
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:32,960
Steve died, God love him, in 
whatever year it was 2003, the 

1305
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:38,320
end of 2003 I think. 
And Steve's still owned the 

1306
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:43,120
McLaren. 
And it had been for sale every 

1307
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:48,000
week or every month in 
Motorsport magazine and he 

1308
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,120
wasn't selling and it hadn't 
sold. 

1309
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:52,960
It had been advertised for six 
months and nobody bought it. 

1310
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:58,240
And I remember Steve's wife rang
me one day and I remember to 

1311
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:01,000
this like it's yesterday, I was 
sat on an aeroplane. 

1312
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,680
I was just about to take off to 
go somewhere to a race and she 

1313
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:08,160
rang me and she said, Tim, would
you like to buy the McLaren? 

1314
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:14,120
So I said, well I said I would 
Angie, I said no, I can't, I 

1315
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:16,760
don't think I can afford it. 
And it was it was for sale at 

1316
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:22,800
the time for £400,000. 
Oh, look at the value of it now.

1317
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:27,840
And she said, she said I sent 
Angie I don't have 4000 lbs. 

1318
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,440
She said well she said Steve 
would have really liked you to 

1319
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:36,400
have it and do it for 375 to you
if you want to have it. 

1320
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,480
And I said Angie, I don't have 
375. 

1321
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,840
She said well you could give me 
some now and some later. 

1322
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:47,080
I said no, honestly, Angie, I 
don't. 12 million. 

1323
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:51,440
That car sold for about five 
years ago. 

1324
01:19:51,440 --> 01:19:54,040
It sold for 12 I think it was. 
A good one last year when I was 

1325
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:55,280
there. 
I'm sure that was the car. 

1326
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:58,440
Yeah, it's owned by me. 
It's owned by a guy called Paul.

1327
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:02,400
That field. 
Paul's got it still in exactly 

1328
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:04,120
the livery. 
Put it totally back to the 

1329
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,360
livery that we finished fourth 
at the morning it and it's 

1330
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:12,600
probably worth 20 million now. 
I would say if you can put rice 

1331
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,840
on it and I could have bought it
for 375 grand. 

1332
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:25,320
Wow. 
Yeah, to. 

1333
01:20:25,440 --> 01:20:30,920
To bring us sort of full circle 
then, Tim, you mentioned earlier

1334
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,920
that you sort of run a team and 
manage drivers now and a lot of 

1335
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:37,480
what you do is that kind of your
day-to-day these days within 

1336
01:20:37,480 --> 01:20:40,120
motorsport. 
Yeah, basically. 

1337
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:44,120
So I started, I used to drive, 
started driving for a guy called

1338
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:50,000
Jim Mcquirter, great guy that he
was starting a race team in the 

1339
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:56,560
2006 doing. 
He wanted to do Elms and I was 

1340
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,080
introduced to him at the racing 
car show actually by Micky 

1341
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:05,040
Butler at Dunlop. 
And he said have a chat with 

1342
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:07,720
this guy from Northern Ireland. 
He's apparently he's bought a 

1343
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:09,480
Ferrari and he wants to start 
racing. 

1344
01:21:09,480 --> 01:21:14,000
So I had a meeting with Jim. 
Jim said talk to me for half an 

1345
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:15,400
hour and said you've got to 
drive. 

1346
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:21,200
And so I drove for Jim for a 
year and then he wanted me to 

1347
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:23,840
stay and drive for him again. 
I couldn't because I had some 

1348
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:25,760
drives in America and things so 
I couldn't. 

1349
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:29,800
I couldn't do it. 
And but we stayed friends and 

1350
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,960
then a few years later Jim asked
me to do Le Mans for him. 

1351
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:37,920
So I did Le Mans 3 or 4 times 
with Jim in various Ferraris and

1352
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:41,840
then I started working for him 
as a part time consultant 

1353
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:46,560
running the team and I've done 
that now for about 16 years. 

1354
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,760
So I'm still running that team. 
It's not a full time job, it 

1355
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:54,720
feels like it sometimes, but we 
do Elms every year. 

1356
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:59,440
We we're the only team actually 
that's done every single Elms 

1357
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:02,760
race since it started in 2006. 
Oh. 

1358
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,480
Wow, starting when I drove it 
used to be called the Go. 

1359
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:11,560
Then it became JMW. 
We've done Le Mans 16 times. 

1360
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:16,880
We won our class at Le Mans in 
17, we finished second in 19 and

1361
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,720
we've not got a Le Man entry 
this year for the first year in 

1362
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:22,840
15 years. 
So that's a shame. 

1363
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:25,280
But yeah, that's that keeps me 
busy. 

1364
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,160
And then I have a couple of 
consultancies. 

1365
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:31,720
I've got a consultancy actually 
with the one group I'm helping 

1366
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,640
them. 
So that's a team, an engineering

1367
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:40,320
group of people and a team based
at Siwell at the airfield there.

1368
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:46,040
And it's Ron that used to be 
years ago at Prodrive and then 

1369
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,560
he was at Rim Alex and then he 
was at Chevrolet. 

1370
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:53,480
So Ron runs that and I work with
them, helping them with the 

1371
01:22:53,480 --> 01:22:55,720
programme that they're doing in 
GT Masters. 

1372
01:22:56,240 --> 01:23:02,400
And then I've got sort of about 
8:00, I've got 8 drivers that I 

1373
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,600
look after that I manage young 
drivers that are doing various 

1374
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:07,680
things. 
Some are doing Formula 4, some 

1375
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:11,880
are doing GT4, some are doing 
GT3, so I look after every 

1376
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:15,800
aspect of their career and 
guiding them and advising them 

1377
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:18,680
and helping them generally. 
Busier now than ever then, Tim. 

1378
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:23,920
And I run a car dealership, so 
I've got you can't see it, but 

1379
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,880
I'm set at work now. 
I've got a small car dealership 

1380
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,600
come full circle. 
Got a small showroom in Leeds. 

1381
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:36,160
I've got 35 cars and we're 
called Purple Dot Performance 

1382
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,960
and we sell everything from a 
Fiat 500 to a well, we haven't 

1383
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:42,560
got anything really super at the
moment. 

1384
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:45,440
We just sold this GTR that was 
quite special. 

1385
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:49,600
That's that's gone now. 
We've got a couple of nice BMWs,

1386
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:53,800
M4 and what have you. 
Yeah, so I love cars, but I love

1387
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,080
racing and everything I do is 
cars. 

1388
01:23:56,600 --> 01:23:59,880
We'll wrap up there, Tim and, 
and I would just like to say 

1389
01:23:59,920 --> 01:24:03,880
thank you so much for spending 
so much time with us this 

1390
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:07,840
evening to talk about your 
career in motorsport and in 

1391
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:11,080
particular, obviously the the, 
the stuff you got up to in Super

1392
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:13,400
Touring. 
So, Tim, thanks very much for 

1393
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:15,280
your time. 
No, no problem. 

1394
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:17,000
Lovely. 
Nice to reminisce. 

1395
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:22,200
Yeah, absolutely. 
Meanwhile, that wraps up another

1396
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:24,320
episode of Stories from Super 
Touring. 

1397
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:28,520
A massive thank you again to our
guest, Tim Sugden, for sharing 

1398
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:32,120
some truly unforgettable 
memories and insights from the 

1399
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,120
golden era of touring car 
racing. 

1400
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,200
If you enjoyed this episode, 
don't forget to like, subscribe,

1401
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,360
and leave us a review. 
It really helps us reach more 

1402
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,000
fans like you. 
You can follow us on your 

1403
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:47,400
favourite podcast platform and 
on social media to stay up to 

1404
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:49,800
date with new episodes and 
exclusive content. 

1405
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:53,600
Meanwhile, thanks for listening 
and we'll see you next time for 

1406
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:56,240
more stories from the heart of 
Super Touring.