1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:18,560 Stories from Super Touring. Hello everyone, and welcome to 2 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,960 this week's episode of Stories from Super Touring. 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,440 Now, as ever, we've got another great guest with us today, and 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,240 today's guest is one of the biggest names in Touring car 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,360 history. He's raced a variety of 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,000 different touring cars over the years, becoming BTCC champion in 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,240 1992 in the process. He's still involved in the 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,240 championship today and will be known by many of you as the 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,840 current voice of touring cars. It's none other than Tim Harvey. 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,320 Tim, thanks so much for joining us on Stories from Super Touring 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,440 Today. How are you doing? 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,400 I'm very good, although I'm I'm not so sure I'm one of the 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,600 biggest names. I think Fabrizio Giovannadi is a 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,920 much bigger, longer name than Tim Harvey. 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,040 Yeah. There's lots, lots more letters 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,920 there. Perhaps you were just alluding 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,000 to my weight. Certainly in that respect, I'm 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,640 definitely one of the biggest names in Turing cars. 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,320 Yeah. Weighing in at a stealthy 90 to 20 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:12,280 100 kilos. I think it just made all my 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,120 achievements all the more remarkable, really. 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,480 Absolutely. It was the Renault lunches I 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,160 think. Actually, on that note, I was, I 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,640 had it in my contract with TWR in 95 that I had to weigh the 80 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,200 kilos, which was the minimum driveway or maximum driveway. 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,640 Sorry. Well, I've never weighed 80 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:37,000 kilos in all my, in all my life. And I sort of went on a, a, a 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,680 strict diet and all the rest of it for at least, oh, ten days 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:46,560 before the before the meeting. But unfortunately they decided 30 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,960 to have the driver weigh in at the media day a week before the 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,280 first race. So I fail. 32 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,120 I was 83 kilos and I said to Tom Walker, so well, what do you 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,840 want me to do? Do you want me to not turn up at 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,000 the weekend then? I was thinking that. 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,480 I was thinking what what was what was the plan? 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,520 BI bet there wasn't one. Anyway, I I did manage to make 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,280 the 80 kilos at the first race, but it was the only time that 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,360 year I ever did it. I can. 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:18,040 Tell you Tim, your association with BTCC and touring car racing 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,920 in general is coming up to nearly 4 decades now. 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,320 How does that make you feel? Yes. 42 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,920 As an old. Yeah, I I sat and worked it out 43 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:30,920 because I was first in the touring car paddock. 44 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:34,000 Not Super Touring days, I know, but I was first in the touring 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,400 car paddock in 1987. So and I've been in the paddock 46 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:42,240 either as a driver or working with the team or commentator 47 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,880 every year since. So I mean, I haven't had a year 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,880 not doing something in touring car. 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,920 So I think this is my 37th year if my maths is correct. 50 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,760 You know, that's a, that's a hell of a long time in one 51 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,760 paddock. I mean, there are characters and 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,120 people who have been around throughout that period, but not 53 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,560 many, I can tell you. You've seen a lot of people come 54 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,640 and go at that point then, haven't you? 55 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:08,000 When you think about it, all the teams that are open gone 56 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,720 drivers, team managers and. Well, if you think how transient 57 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,320 the sport is for all of those things, yeah. 58 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,240 I mean, I seen an awful lot of it and a lot of changes with 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,480 obviously the cars and everything else. 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,080 But, you know, the racing still remains fantastic today and the 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,840 best drivers today would hold their end up in any era, 62 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,080 including Super Touring. So, you know, in that sense 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,360 things are still very much the same. 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,800 But I mean, I, you know, without newness, without change, it 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,960 wouldn't be interesting. So, you know, I'm glad there is 66 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:46,120 some change, but yeah, it does fairly sort of root me in the, 67 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,200 the history books of, of, of seeing change throughout the 68 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,800 championship. So as you say, you spent, you 69 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,160 know, 37 years in the the BTCC, but let's take it right back to 70 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,600 the start. And how did you get into motor 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,840 racing originally? Both my parents, this is in the 72 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,720 60s, I was born in 61, They used to go off almost every weekend 73 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,399 to a motoring event, and by that I mean a hill climb, a Sprint, 74 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,160 an auto cross, some kind of motor racing or motoring 75 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,160 activity and they'd meet up with friends and they'd compete. 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,120 I'd charge around the place with my brother causing mayhem 77 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,080 everywhere. But you know, I grew up going to 78 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,800 motoring events with my parents competing just as amateurs as a 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,120 complete sport. You know, that was just our 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,800 hobby. If you like the family hobby, 81 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,200 picnic in the back of a Mini Cooper S or a Lotus Cortina and 82 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:52,360 off we'd go for the weekend. So, you know, for me I always 83 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,640 saw and I still do see it as a sport and I'm glad, really 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,200 privileged and glad I had that, that basis of getting into motor 85 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,880 sport. I, I was always and still am 86 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,640 passionate about motorbikes. So I started off on motorbikes, 87 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,800 schoolboy motocross, things like that before getting into 88 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,960 karting, primarily with my brother because he wasn't into 89 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,960 bikes and he was into cars and karts. 90 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,480 So we could do that together and then into cars. 91 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,080 But throughout that whole period, it was just for me, it 92 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,040 was a hobby and a sport. The fact that I was sort of 93 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,120 quite driven and competitive and had a modicum of talent was what 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,680 sort of got me the opportunities that I then made the most of. 95 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,640 But yeah, that's how it goes. It does go back to karting, 96 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,440 certainly. It was your performances in the 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Formula Ford that meant Austin Rd. but got in touch with you. 98 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:45,560 So how did that sort of come about? 99 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,560 Because you spent two seasons racing EMG metros before 100 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,800 deciding to go for full season of Formula Four in 1996. 101 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,880 Yeah, that's right. I mean, I mean, I live near 102 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:02,120 Brands Hatch in Kent. And so when I I knew Ian 103 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,640 Blackman who ran a Regal Racing Services, which was sort of Semi 104 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,960 Van Works, Van Diemen team and he'd sort of seen me in Carter 105 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,200 had some mutual acquaintances and he ran the Formula Four team 106 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,480 and said, oh Tim, you know, you're doing quite well in 107 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,880 karting locally, why don't you come out and go and formula 108 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,160 forward at brands. So I went and had a little test 109 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,640 that brands in one of his former Fords and absolutely loved it 110 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,000 straight away. Immediately sold all of our 111 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,160 karting equipment and bought a through through Ian. 112 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,400 I bought a 2 year old rolling chassis. 113 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:42,160 It was actually expert in Brazil, our van Diem RF-81 and 114 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,000 he loaned me an engine and gave me second hand tyres and I just 115 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,040 did the local Champion of Brands races. 116 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,480 That was literally the start of it. 117 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,640 Again, doing it as a hobby with a bit help from Ian, a bit of 118 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,240 help from well, a lot of help from my dad and my brother sort 119 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:03,600 of helping mechanic it. But you know, we did it on a 120 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,000 shoestring just to do some local Brands Hatch Champion of Brands 121 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,680 races. But, and that was in 83 the 122 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:18,600 first year I did cars and come the festival in 83, Ian said, 123 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,920 well, why don't you enter it? And I saw I sort of took a back 124 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,800 step and thought, well, you know, I've only done a handful 125 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,120 of Champion of Brands races. You know, this is the biggest 126 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,080 event in Formula Forward in the world. 127 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,440 I think that year there were 294 starters, literally 294 128 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,200 starters. And the heats, the heat started 129 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,920 on Thursday and there was just straight knockout, you know, 14 130 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,600 went through and 14 went out. Anyway, cut Long story short, I 131 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,520 got through to the final and finished 7th in the final in a 2 132 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,880 year old car. And it just got me, got me some 133 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,480 attention at the right time because Austin Rover and the 134 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,760 Daily Express were jointly looking for an under 23 year old 135 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,480 scholarship driver to race in the MG Metro Challenge. 136 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,040 So I got nominated by a couple of journalists after this 137 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,320 performance and Julie then won the scholarship and went MG 138 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,760 Metro Racing. Fast forward to the opening race 139 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,760 that you had in 1986. That was a race that could have 140 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,600 well defined your career, wasn't it? 141 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,600 As you unfortunately involved in quite a nasty accident at 142 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,720 Silverstone. Sort of what happened to that? 143 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,880 Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I did two seasons with 144 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,039 Metros because it was my first introduction, if you like to, 145 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,120 you know, a factory supportive effort. 146 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,360 I commercially, I realized the importance of sticking with it 147 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,400 Austin Rover and I brought in some other sponsors. 148 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,800 Well, because I was wrecking metros at a rate of 1 every two 149 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,600 races, so had to bring some extra funds in. 150 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,040 And so I, I was sort of getting quite commercially savvy, but, 151 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,720 and I, I'd also got involved with this Dell, which used to be 152 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,160 British Leylands IT systems, but have bought themselves out 153 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,200 become this Dell. But whilst I was racing MG 154 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,160 metros, I wanted to do Formula Four. 155 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,440 That's where I come from. You know, in my mind I was the 156 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,080 next, you know, current Max Verstappen wasn't I, I thought I 157 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,960 was the best that these needs. I mean, I actually wasn't. 158 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,880 And I'm, and so actually what happened in 86 turned out to do 159 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,320 me a favour. But yeah, I managed to get, 160 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,200 after two years of metros, I managed to get Estelle to agree 161 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,680 a full year sponsorship to do Formula 4 and signed up with the 162 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:52,520 Works Question which was back with Ian Blackman. 163 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,120 Obviously they'd had success with the quest designed by Mike 164 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,440 Thompson in 85 with Johnny Herbert winning the festival. 165 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,120 So all things came together very nicely. 166 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:10,800 I had that Rascal of a team mate, Gary Isles and we were 167 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,240 sort of, we were both, we were just in the zone. 168 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,800 We were dominating testing in the run up to the first meeting 169 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,720 and the first meeting was at Silverstone and I had, you know, 170 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,600 a horrendous accident and shack to both my ankles. 171 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,760 And so Tim Harvey is, you know, next Formula One world champion. 172 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Never happened. But he's bloody hurt. 173 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:35,520 Yeah, sure. How long? 174 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,000 How long did that keep you out of action for? 175 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,880 Basically seven months. I mean, I won't bore you with 176 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,320 all the details, but basically good old Silverstone and Sid got 177 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,120 me out of the car, bless him. And I was whisked off to 178 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,600 Northampton General where, you know, you expect that you're 179 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,080 going to get the best treatment because, you know, Silverstone's 180 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,960 nearby and the rest of it. And you know, I arrived on a 181 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,640 Sunday late afternoon and there's, you know, the duty 182 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,920 doctors and whoever on on board and they X-rayed me and found 183 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,520 that both my ankles were shattered. 184 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,800 Left one was particularly bad. And basically the orthopaedic 185 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,280 Dr. that was there said, well, I can't fix that, We're going to 186 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:27,880 have to amputate your left foot. Whereupon my, my then wife, the 187 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,840 first Mrs. Harvey, said no, stop right now. 188 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,040 And she called my brother who was a doctor at the London 189 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,040 Hospital. I say that because London 190 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Hospital is where Professor Sid Watkins came from and where Dr. 191 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,960 Jonathan Palmer trained and that was just coincidence. 192 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,800 My brother. But my brother was a doctor 193 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,080 there. In fact, well, he was running 194 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,840 the intensive care unit, which currently had at the time had 195 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,280 Frank Williams in it. So he was there looking after 196 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,720 Frank Williams and he gets gets the call to say I've had this 197 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,600 accident. And he said right stop. 198 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,400 He spoke to the hospital, so don't do anything, give him some 199 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,240 painkillers. And he organized the private 200 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,600 ambulance to get me down to the London hospital where he got a 201 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,080 fantastic orthopaedic surgeon to basically save my left foot and, 202 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,600 you know, fix up both, both ankles, which were both 203 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,280 shattered and saved my foot. So, well then, yeah, I had a 204 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,040 sort of basically a seven month recovery because obviously I 205 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,360 couldn't walk off to do anything for a long time. 206 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,640 Ouch. Anyway, I became an expert. 207 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,080 I became an expert in snooker because I watched the every 208 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:49,400 frame of the 1986 World Finals at the Crucible, and I'm an 209 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,320 expert snooker player. By watching now. 210 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,200 Was that the famous one or the I couldn't, I couldn't, couldn't 211 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:00,640 remember. I couldn't put a ball to save my 212 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,800 life now. But I know what they should do. 213 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,400 For this series of Stories from Super Touring, we are delighted 214 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,400 to be teaming up with Brands Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 215 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,960 Super Touring Power 2, which is being held at the famous circuit 216 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,480 on the 29th and 30th of June 2024. 217 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,960 The award nominated event was a smash hit last year when it's 218 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,960 debut edition transported fans back to the 90s and this year's 219 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,720 event will once again celebrate one of touring car racing's most 220 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,400 fondly remembered eras. To enter the competition, just 221 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,280 answer the following question. Who was the first ever guest to 222 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,600 star on Stories from Super Touring? 223 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,800 Send your answers to pod at 1990s btcc.com and we'll 224 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,720 announce the winner on a later episode. 225 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,320 This series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the 226 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:03,120 episode. So in 1987 then Tim, you saw you 227 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,000 make your debut in BTCC, which was actually the first year it 228 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,640 was known as the BTCC. I believe you raced the mighty 229 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Rover SD1. Yeah. 230 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,480 Well, that that was again the sort of alliance because I mean 231 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,800 with Austin still. The Austin Rover, yeah, can 232 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,280 we'll come from that. Yeah, because I couldn't. 233 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,880 There's no way I was going to go back into single seaters because 234 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,680 I just didn't have the the the manipulation in my ankles to to 235 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,520 drive a car sort of laying down if you like. 236 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,560 But because I still have Estelle who wanted to help. 237 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,040 They are. They were obviously linked to 238 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,680 Austin Rover. The Rover had basically just 239 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,480 been pretty much retired. It had been retired from the 240 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,760 TCC. So the TWR Rover team have been 241 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,640 disbanded, but it made sense to to go into British touring cars 242 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,920 from an Estelle point of view and also because it meant that I 243 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,760 could drive using my legs a little bit more than my my 244 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,080 ankles. So a plan was formed to to go 245 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,720 into the British Touring Car Championship. 246 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,480 We, we bought the ex Andy Rouse, Pete Hall 1984 championship 247 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,560 winning car, which Pete Hall had run after Andy Rouse had 248 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,400 finished with it and gave it to John McGuire to prepare the car. 249 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,280 And I remember at the first race, the commentator said, oh, 250 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,480 here's Tim Harvey, the youngest. Driver on the grid. 251 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,840 I was going to say actually you were the young gun in the series 252 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,400 at the time. Yeah. 253 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,240 You know, the field was a generally was an older 254 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,240 generation at that time. Did that, did you, did that mark 255 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,920 you out of something different in the paddock? 256 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,800 Did you, did you get ever get any sort of funny reactions 257 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,480 because you were such a youngster against the old boys 258 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,480 then? I, I don't think so 259 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,560 particularly. I think that, you know, I had a 260 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,280 fair degree of sympathy from the paddock because I'd gone racing 261 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,240 again after my accident. So there was a certain amount 262 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,840 of, you know, Bon and me, if you like, and, and the 263 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,400 establishment, if you like were, it was still the sort of drivers 264 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,800 that weren't there professionally. 265 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,120 So they were there enjoying their racing rather than seeing 266 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,640 me as a huge threat commercially or anything like that. 267 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,400 You know, that would all come later. 268 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,720 But at the time I, I had a very good reception and, you know, 269 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,080 I'd actually say I'm, I'm still friends with a lot of people 270 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,120 that were there back in that, in that period. 271 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,320 So in in your first season in the championship, Tim, you 272 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,160 actually would win Class A, but the the class system the 273 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,160 championship used at the time meant the Class A driver very 274 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,200 rarely ended up winning the title. 275 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,160 How sad. Yeah. 276 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Was that weird to deal with, knowing that sort of you beat 277 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,000 everyone in your own class, but then that didn't translate, 278 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,160 winning a title at the end of the day, was that quite a weird 279 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,520 experience? It honestly, it didn't really 280 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,720 bother me at the time, you know, I mean, I was, I was happy 281 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,520 enough to beat the people in the class, you know, which of course 282 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,280 included Andy, you know, and, and win some races in the 283 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:15,560 British Touring Car Championship. 284 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:21,040 So I was happy enough, you know, having my nose rubbed in it in 285 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,200 later years, you know, particularly by John Cleland, 286 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,360 who obviously won one of his championships by winning the 287 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,240 class, you know, but can call himself a two time champion. 288 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Yeah, that did sort of niggle a little bit. 289 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,320 But that's just one of many things that me about John 290 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,120 Cleland. But anyway. 291 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:49,400 There's another episode on that. But no, so it didn't really 292 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,320 bother me at the time. You know, I was glad to be 293 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,280 racing again. I was glad to have commercial 294 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,560 partners to be, you know, having some success, you know, a 295 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,960 relatively high level in terms of championship awareness. 296 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,840 Yeah. And the car was fantastic. 297 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,760 I've got to say that Rover was absolutely fantastic. 298 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,560 Oh, I love, I love the big Rovers, love the big Rovers. 299 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,000 It's still good when you see the the odd ones thought about it 300 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,600 like the Silverstone Classic and stuff, isn't it? 301 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,200 When you just see it and you just beast, yeah, it's big way 302 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,600 and you're looking at it. It's a big car, like it's a big 303 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,080 car, but it's just history, isn't it? 304 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,440 That's what I love about the Classic. 305 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,320 It's just got all these cars. I mean, back to your Formula 306 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Ford comments as well, team. And obviously, have you still 307 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,520 got an old Formula Ford? I haven't. 308 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,280 I did. I did buy because you. 309 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,080 Did have one, didn't you? Because you, you used the 310 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,760 Silverstone Classic 2-3 years ago, was it? 311 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:37,400 Yeah. That's right. 312 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,680 I bought AI, bought a, an identical card, not my actual 313 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,000 card, but I bought an RF-81 and went and did the classic Formula 314 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,560 Ford series with, with Jonathan Lewis running the car. 315 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,320 You know, Rick Morris and various people were still doing 316 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:59,160 it and I was trying to recreate or remind myself of that lovely 317 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,440 feeling that you have or you used to have driving a Formula 318 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,680 Four because the cars moved around all the time. 319 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,360 You look back at pictures of Formula Four cars and they're 320 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,960 sideways going into paddock, you know, like they're driving in 321 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,160 the wet. But the cars really moved around 322 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,360 a lot. And it was real fingertip 323 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,760 control stuff. And I, and I loved it. 324 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,600 It was absolutely fantastic. And I was just trying to 325 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,520 experience that again, you know, and have some fun. 326 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,080 Well, I certainly had some fun and, you know, it was a great 327 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,080 fun year. The only thing is, although the 328 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,440 cars are, I mean the cars are identical to the way they were, 329 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,120 the tyres are much better than they were back in the day. 330 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,640 So the cars felt more like a Formula Ford 2000, if you like 331 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,720 on slicks than it did a Formula Ford moving about. 332 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,800 And although it was still fun, you're sort of driving it not in 333 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,600 the same way that you used to drive a formula for, which was 334 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,120 what I was sort of looking to do. 335 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,520 So I had a great fun year. I got made an offer for the car 336 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,040 at the end of the year that paid for all the running costs of the 337 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,560 car and and all the rest of it. And I thought, well, OK, I'm 338 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,520 going to quit while I'm ahead and, and I sold the car. 339 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,720 So I didn't keep it, but I had a great fun doing it so. 340 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,720 In 1988, that was the start of the three seasons racing the 341 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,240 mighty Sierra RS500, firstly with Terry Drury and then two 342 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,440 years in the Labatt's team. Again, an iconic car. 343 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,400 It was a mighty car, wasn't it? And was it as exciting to drive 344 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,200 as it looked? Because you know, I'm a fan of 345 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,360 the Cozi and I've mentioned it to you a few times before, 346 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,760 especially looking around the Birmingham Super Pre races and 347 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,080 stuff like that. But how was that for you, I 348 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,600 mean. Oh, I mean they were fantastic, 349 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,160 you know, coming out the Rover, you know, getting in something 350 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,200 that we 500 plus horsepower after 350 and. 351 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,200 Lighter. It was and lighter it was. 352 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,440 I mean they were, they were fantastic. 353 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,560 You know, the first year I did with, with Terry Drury was a 354 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,440 real sort of shoestring operation. 355 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,360 Really we didn't. It was a real shoestring 356 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,760 operation. But you know, the next two years 357 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:13,360 with the Lebats cars in 89 and 90 were absolutely fantastic. 358 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,000 And of course it was the end of the Group A era. 359 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,760 And if you're like the start of real interest in touring cars, 360 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,680 because the Cosworth was such an iconic car even in its day, you 361 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,520 know, I mean, we used to have Rd. cars and we'd get stopped by 362 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,800 people, you know, just to talk about the car, you know, I mean, 363 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,880 there was such a such a thing. It created a lot of interest in 364 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,400 the racing as well. So that was then of course that 365 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,400 did go into the two litre formula, but people already had 366 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,040 the interest. But the cars were spectacular. 367 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,680 I mean they, you know, I've told, we've all told the story 368 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,320 before, but I mean they'd do 176 mile an hour at Silverstone and 369 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,400 overtake a Formula 3000 car down the Hangar Straight, you know. 370 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,720 And if you stood on the pit wall at Silverstone or anywhere Orton 371 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,920 Park, somewhere where the car sort of come towards you at a 372 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,280 rate or not, you would step back. 373 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,680 You know, people go wow, you know, they really were quite 374 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,760 spectacular things. And I know I've said in previous 375 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,560 episodes before, I think it was the last series where I had the 376 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,640 the go in, I think Hodget's old one, that the red one ran 377 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,880 Snetters and ran the old circuit. 378 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,520 Yeah. I mean, just what a thrill, you 379 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,320 know what a thrill. You just come back with a smile 380 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,040 on your face and it's just almost like one. 381 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,680 There are no way to describe it. It's just one hand on the wheel, 382 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,720 one hand on the gears, because there was there was never enough 383 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,520 gears. He just wanted more gears. 384 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,680 And honestly, it was so even now like such a few so many years 385 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,920 on, but I'll just it's just one of those moments where I just 386 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,160 crossed it off the list, which was probably never on the list 387 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,160 because I never really thought I'd ever get the opportunity to 388 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,640 drive one. So when I literally because it 389 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,040 was never pre planned, it was just I was just there testing a 390 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,600 different car and I got asked to drive in. 391 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,920 I certainly didn't need to be asked twice. 392 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,720 But yeah, what a thrill. What an absolute thrill. 393 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,520 So I can only imagine what those cars were like for, you know, 394 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,400 Sprint races, load of other. Yeah, our environments around 395 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,680 you. You've also got the Armco 396 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,640 barriers around the streets of Birmingham and you know, God, 397 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,320 God, that must be one of the most difficult races, actually 398 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,640 one of those around Birmingham. Super brings bumpy. 399 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,680 You haven't got enough track, really, you know, You and Rouse, 400 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,000 touching the barriers as you're coming out of the hairpins and 401 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,520 through the corners and the cars bouncing all over the place, 402 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,400 weren't they? Yeah, I mean they were bouncing 403 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,080 all over the place while the sort of boost was coming in and 404 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,000 you're trying to put the bar down whilst the tires are going 405 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,440 off. So yeah, I mean they they wanted 406 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,920 to step out every opportunity and and hit the arm code. 407 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,720 But yeah, I. Just wanted to kill you all the 408 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,560 time didn't he just wanted to kill you all the time. 409 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,080 When you look at the footage, the in car footage, they just 410 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,200 looked like animals. But honestly bring it just which 411 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,680 makes me smoke. I want to look at the footage 412 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,080 because it just must like get back to the part of Firmo 413 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:54,840 thinking. Thank God for that. 414 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,160 Yeah, but you didn't in the day. You just thought that was what 415 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,200 it was. You know, that was, that was the 416 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,600 normal thing. And that was the that was, if 417 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,560 you like the cutting edge of touring cars. 418 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,000 So you, you know, you, you didn't think it was, I mean 419 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,880 didn't think of no racing driver thinks about the danger when 420 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,840 they're doing it, but you know it, it was just part of the fun. 421 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,600 Do you, do you look back on that now and think, Jesus, they were 422 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,120 a handle? Like, obviously, you know, you 423 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,080 don't know how things are going to evolve, do you, at that time, 424 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,520 Because that is the current latest thing of New York 425 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,240 driving. So do you look back at it now 426 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,640 and think how the bloody did that, why they weren't mental? 427 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,640 Was that dangerous? Yeah, no, I, I, I, I. 428 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,840 And you, You've lived to tell the tale, you know? 429 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,440 Yeah, I don't think they were dangerous. 430 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,160 I mean I you. Know well 176 mile an hour pass 431 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,640 an F3000 cars. You know, you're not exactly 432 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,200 saying a carbon monocoque, are you? 433 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,320 No. That thing was going to explode 434 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,200 when you when you were going to eat the barrier. 435 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,160 Let's be honest. Yeah, I guess so. 436 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,920 But you know, we all managed to survive. 437 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:02,080 OK, so, but you know, The thing is, though, in at that time, you 438 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,560 know, European touring cars was huge. 439 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,840 You know, we had the works for team with the Texaco cars, you 440 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,640 know, Cos he's ran in Australia. They ran all over the world. 441 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,280 You know, it was a it was a big thing in in the day. 442 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,800 So, you know, and, and the fact that you'd have your sofas and 443 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,680 rouses and people to race against, you know, it was, it 444 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:31,040 was fantastic really. Talking of boxes being ticked 445 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:36,880 and iconic moments, you're also racing at Le Mans a few years 446 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,600 during this period. I mean, yeah. 447 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,880 And this is especially before they put the chicanes in down 448 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,600 the old Mulsanne Strait. So is that another box ticked 449 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,240 for you? You know, raced at Le Mans? 450 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,520 Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. 451 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,000 I mean, you know, I know this is a super touring, touring car 452 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,120 based interview, but you know, and and everybody knows me for 453 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,280 touring cars. But reality is, I mean, I'd 454 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,080 actually done two years in the British sports car championship 455 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,680 in 88 and 89 and won that championship twice. 456 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,800 And that got me the opportunity to do some races with Spice and 457 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,560 the factory team and the full year in the in the world sports 458 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,480 car Championship doing driver AC1 Spice, which was Formula One 459 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:25,040 engine ground effect 750 to 800K car, which was absolutely 460 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,120 ballistic. And if I'm honest, I enjoy 461 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,200 driving those cars even more than the RS5 hundreds. 462 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,720 They were proper prototype pucker things that were sort of 463 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,240 three seconds off a Formula One car of its day and, you know, 464 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:49,400 racing at Spa Fuji Suzuka. And Le Mans without the chicanes 465 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,160 as well. Yeah, Le Mans without the 466 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280 chicane. I mean, I look at footies now 467 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,680 and I keep, you know, you look at anything. 468 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Oh, that's scary. Like absolutely flat out for 469 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,920 such a long time. Yeah, I mean it, it, it was a 470 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,000 minute flat out. You were flat out for a minute. 471 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,960 But the Le Mans Strait is goes up, as you know, towards the 472 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,520 end. So your eyes are always drawn 473 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,720 towards the horizon so you don't feel like you're and the gears 474 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,080 are long. So you, you know, you accelerate 475 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,240 relatively gently, but you're still doing 220 odd mile an 476 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:22,720 hour. But you're looking at the 477 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,520 horizon and you don't, you don't really appreciate the speed 478 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,280 until something goes wrong in the sense of there's a bit of 479 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,680 debris on the track and you need to swerve round it. 480 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,480 Well, you can't swerve or steer a car, a projectile travelling 481 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,480 at that speed. You can only guide it to the 482 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,080 left and guide it to the right. So you can't go round something. 483 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,360 So, and as soon as you go past that you, you know, I mean, 484 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,000 you're, you're there in, you're on it in a split second and past 485 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,120 it. And that's when you realise the 486 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,320 speed. But on the other hand, you know, 487 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,240 actually apart from the risk of tyre failures, it was safer. 488 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600 And that's why they put the chicanes in, because they didn't 489 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,640 want cars constantly running at 220 mile an hour. 490 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,520 But it was actually safer because, you know, slower cars 491 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,680 kept to one side, faster cars went past. 492 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,000 You had one braking zone at the end of the straight, whereas now 493 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,760 you've got cars Criss crossing the road three times to take a 494 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,240 line through the chicanes. You've got, you know, the 495 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,760 problem of seeing cars at night when you're braking, bringing 496 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,520 gravel onto the track when they go through the gravel traps at 497 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,640 the chicanes. And in actual fact, it's so it's 498 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,440 there's more risk if you like in sense of unexpected consequences 499 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,400 of having the chicanes in there. But it has ruled out the the 500 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,080 additional risk of blow outs. But they're all that's happened 501 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,280 now is the cars are shorter gear, so they accelerate 502 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,600 quicker. So they still get up to the same 503 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,840 terminal velocity. They still get up to 200, two, 504 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,080 120 miles an hour. And they do it five times on the 505 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,480 lap, but they don't sit there for, you know, 3060 seconds at 506 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,040 doing it. That's the difference. 507 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,600 Yeah, massive speed. So Tim, back to the touring 508 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,440 cars, the BTCC moved to the two litre engines for 1991 with you 509 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,080 moving into the BMW M3 which was run by Vickley. 510 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,600 Now you know, all of the good old cars 8 is we've already 511 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:28,560 spoken to you about, but how was the transition from the BMW non 512 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,720 turbo, obviously going from a Cozi that's got, you know, 500 513 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,880 plus horsepower, no grip, you know, trying to kill you every 5 514 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,480 minutes. But then you've got probably a 515 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,360 BMW. There's a lot more time, a lot 516 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,960 more controlled, but probably felt like you're going a lot 517 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,520 slower as well. I imagine how. 518 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,720 Completely different car. I mean initially, yeah, in all 519 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,840 honesty, very disappointing because those E 30s had run in 520 00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,480 DTM in initially 2.3 litre and then 2.5 litre with full 521 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,960 screaming race engines in them. I mean, if you watch back the 522 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:09,160 footage of DTM at that time, those cars were absolutely epic. 523 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,400 But of course we'd gone to this two litre formula, so our cars 524 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,240 were seriously dulled down in terms of horsepower from the DTM 525 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,640 equivalents and even more down on power obviously compared to 526 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,960 what we got out of the RS5 hundreds the year before. 527 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,840 So initially it was quite underwhelming, but of course it 528 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,040 then required a completely different set of driver 529 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,440 technique. It was all about cornering, you 530 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,520 know, everything was about momentum and cornering, just as 531 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,320 it is in anything that's sort of slightly underpowered. 532 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,840 Whereas the Colsworth was a point and squirt it shits and 533 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,120 giggles car. Yeah, you couldn't. 534 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,400 Get it? You couldn't get it round the 535 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:52,560 corner. Yeah, no property. 536 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,760 So, so suddenly the, the requirement from a driver point 537 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,640 of view was completely different. 538 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,680 And you know, you focused your mind on, you know, how to get 539 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,120 the best out of the chassis and get the best out of the chassis 540 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,920 did great. And the cars were really light, 541 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,200 really dancing. They danced about on fairly 542 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,000 narrow tyres. I mean, they were terrific cars. 543 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,080 I think, you know, in my heart and heart, I just wished we'd 544 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,320 had 2 1/2 litre. All our screamers in the in the 545 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,360 front, yeah. And I imagine in the DTM they 546 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,760 probably would. Would they have had stickier 547 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,600 tires as well compared to you? Yeah, probably, probably not a 548 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,880 lot in it relatively in all honesty, but yeah, probably. 549 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,280 But it was mainly the power that we didn't have. 550 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,600 And and of course, you know, the very first year of this formula 551 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,160 with two litre, you know, the engines were in their infancy. 552 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,320 By the time we get to the end of Super Touring, you know, in 553 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,200 2000, the engines were massively more powerful. 554 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,560 Yeah, even even in looks the the 1st two liter cars were 555 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,160 underwhelming compared to the the mighty Sierra and the 556 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,000 Rovers, you know they they look, they just looked like a road 557 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,240 going three series almost, you know it. 558 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400 But as you say, when when the development race started, that's 559 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,960 when they got a bit more special. 560 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,520 Yeah, definitely. I mean it, you know, the, the 561 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,200 development race in all honesty started straight away, but 562 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,760 certainly by, you know 92 onwards, you know, it was very 563 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,920 much a development race. But if you look at you know, a 564 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,040 92 car, I won't say the 90, the 92 cars were obviously 565 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,080 specifically built for that championship. 566 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,800 We haven't had 318 racing in DTM or anything like that. 567 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,640 The E30 was a carry over. But if you look at that car 568 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,960 compared to one of the later Super Touring cars, I mean the, 569 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,760 the, the, the standard of technical development is just 570 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,520 so, so in its infancy back in 92 compared to the later cars. 571 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,720 Going into round three, that's that season 91 at Donnington. 572 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,680 A bit of an interesting meeting with all four Vickly cars 573 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,640 struggled to keep within the noise limits at the line, at the 574 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,800 line at Bellman, the sister M for he slows to avoid being 575 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,600 scrutineered. Potentially you get sick and 576 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,600 that means you do get scrutineered and then you fail 577 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,960 the noise test. Is that an interesting way you 578 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,760 can look in action? Yeah, I mean, there wasn't, you 579 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,520 know, there was only so much we could do at the circuit in terms 580 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,920 of repacking exhaust pipes and stuff and silence and things. 581 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,880 But of course it all just blew out when we ran the car. 582 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,560 So we could pass a static noise check, but there was no way we 583 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,080 could really pass the one at the end of the at the end of the 584 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,560 race. I mean, had I been a bit more 585 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,040 switched on, I'd have done what Ray did, you know, But I, I 586 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,880 didn't even think about it at the time. 587 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,360 But yeah, I can remember being a bit pissed off. 588 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,760 Yeah. That, you know, yeah, that's 589 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,520 probably we go racing and then we're we're, we're we're sort of 590 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,560 changing the results because the car makes a bit too much noise 591 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,320 for this. They're racing charts at the end 592 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,159 of the day. To being docked at 48 points for 593 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,320 that, that's pretty much, you know, your season's over. 594 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,440 I'm imagining that's that hurt quite a lot, I imagine Tim. 595 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,760 Yeah, but you know what drivers like, you know, you, you, you 596 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,280 put down one day and you get up the next day and you think 597 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,719 you're going to win the next race and it's all going to be 598 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,760 all right, you know. But, you know, and at that 599 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,000 stage, I don't think I, I was never thinking about a 600 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,679 championship really then anyway. I just wanted to go out and do 601 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:41,159 well at the next race. But yeah, I mean, it was, it 602 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:45,320 was, it was obviously a blow and a big blow for the team because 603 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,880 the cars were quick. The team you were with that year 604 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,040 was Victoria Lee and and you stayed with them into the second 605 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,760 year into 92, as you say with the new 318 that came out that 606 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,880 year, that year. I mean, your partnership, your 607 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,240 relationship with Victoria Lee, it was a, you know, very 608 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,920 fruitful relationship towards. What do you say? 609 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,400 Not in what are. You accusing me of? 610 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,680 Yeah. Yeah. 611 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,240 I mean, despite the obvious issues that came about in the 612 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,200 middle of that year, it was the year you won the title, so 613 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,720 obviously a good relationship. Yeah. 614 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,840 Look, I, I, I grew up in Kent. As I said to you at the very 615 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,080 beginning, Victoria was a AVW dealer at White House VW. 616 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,880 That's where he worked. And he did production salons 617 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,600 with AVW Golf and I did some production salons myself. 618 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,640 So, you know, through locality and through racing, I'd actually 619 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,880 always been, I'd always known Victoria, you know, and as you 620 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,760 know, he's an Abrinian character. 621 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,720 You know, he's great company and he took an interest in my career 622 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,720 for the word go. So it was fairly, you know, 623 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:07,480 natural that I, I, I'd say I, I got the seekers. 624 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,760 I knew it because Vic wouldn't put anyone in the car if you 625 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,320 didn't think they'd do the business. 626 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,960 But it was a, it was a good relationship from that side of 627 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,880 things. And, you know, I was very 628 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,360 pleased when Vic became a factory team in 92 and I was 629 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,000 part of that, that that show. And you know, with Steve Sober 630 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,320 as a team mate, you know, you're, that's, you're in a 631 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,080 serious drive then, you know, very serious drive. 632 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,160 You know, we could do hours talking about that year just on 633 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,800 it's own. It's such a roller coaster of 634 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,120 absolutely everything, you know, from developing the car. 635 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,160 We had a fantastic team. You know, I've always said it, 636 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,440 you know, whatever anyone else might say about Victoria Lee, he 637 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,000 ran a fantastic team. You know, his, his, the guys 638 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,480 that worked for him would have walked over hot coals for him. 639 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,200 You know, he had that absolute racist instinct of a team owner. 640 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,720 And everybody gave their best. And, and, you know, once the car 641 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,560 started doing well and, you know, we, we, we were really 642 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,720 working well as a team. And it was all sort of 643 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,000 effectively ended in an instant when Victoria was suddenly 644 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,360 arrested. And then we had to salvage the 645 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,360 team and keep going and all the rest of it. 646 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,560 When you know, by all accounts, you'd have expected everything 647 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,840 to have been closed down. And that's that's the whole 648 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,320 story of what happened over the period between Victoria being 649 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,280 arrested in the next race. But, you know, and then to win 650 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,080 the championship at the end of the year was, yeah, just the 651 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,640 icing on an incredible year. You know that I I, I will never 652 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,280 and I don't suppose many people have ever had a a year of ups 653 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,640 and downs and emotions like I experienced in 92 for sure. 654 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,800 I can't imagine so, yeah. So we're we're talking about 655 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,040 that then, Tim, just briefly, what impact did that have on the 656 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:09,320 team now? So you lost him halfway through 657 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,920 the season with his arrest. And like you, like you said, 658 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,480 you've worked so well as a team and all of a sudden the main 659 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,160 man's gone. You've lost. 660 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,880 Your leader? Yeah, and he was an 661 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:26,640 inspirational leader, as I said. The only thing was that nothing 662 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,400 got impounded. You know, none of the cars or 663 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,880 equipment or anything got impounded. 664 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,560 You would have thought that everything would have been 665 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,960 impounded and seized and taken away, but it wasn't because 666 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,840 Customs as Excise had been watching fit for some months. 667 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,080 And they'd actually put a, a VAT inspector who was actually a 668 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,720 customs official into the business to have a look at, you 669 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,280 know, on the on the grounds of doing V8 routine VAT inspection. 670 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,280 And and they realized that actually the business stood up 671 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,360 perfectly, perfectly on its own. You know, we had some mainstream 672 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,520 sponsors obviously BMW, Shell, Harm and history and all these 673 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,200 people were genuine sponsors. All the paperwork was there. 674 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,200 It was all genuine. So they didn't see the assets of 675 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,120 the team as being the proceeds of drug dealing. 676 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,120 So they didn't they didn't take them. 677 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,760 And that was the first shock. So because all the equipment was 678 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,360 still there, our instincts, you know, myself, Steve Raybaum, you 679 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,240 know, particularly Ray, and as the businessman behind, you 680 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:39,400 know, a lot of experience was to say, well, how can we carry on? 681 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,440 You know, how can we keep this going? 682 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,840 We've got all the assets here. Why can't let's see if we can 683 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,280 keep it going. But of course, all the sponsors 684 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,960 wanted to run a mile, you know, being doubly included. 685 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,440 But that and that was their first reaction, you know, 686 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,160 distance yourself completely. But over the sort of hours, 687 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,160 days, I won't say weeks because it all happened fairly quickly. 688 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,280 You know, we were able to say to the sponsors, look, if you run 689 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,920 away now, you look guilty by association. 690 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,320 We all look guilty by association of, of being somehow 691 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,040 involved with it. But if we actually continue as 692 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,560 we are, but without reference to Victoria, it's very clear that 693 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,840 Victoria was the one that was. If you like in trouble and not 694 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,160 all of us and that took an awful lot of persuasion. 695 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,520 You can imagine the corporate logistics of trying to get that 696 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,640 one across the line. It was extremely difficult and 697 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,680 it actually got to the point where the next test that took 698 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,040 the test if you like at Donnington, we had the trucks 699 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,680 there delivery from Vickley Motorsport, but we had the 700 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,680 trucks outside the paddock and we were waiting for a call from 701 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,640 Tom Purvis from BMW to say whether we could or could not go 702 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,720 ahead. And you know, but whatever time 703 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:09,760 it was in the morning, 8:00, he said yes, you can go ahead and 704 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,680 we went in there. The team, the guys all knew what 705 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,600 to do because they were well drilled organization. 706 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,880 So in terms of running the cars, we knew what to do and at the 707 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,560 end of the day I was quickest and Steve was second and you 708 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,160 know, it was like a real statement. 709 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,760 But we're still here, we're still in business, we're still 710 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,520 competitive and we're still trying to win this bloody 711 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,880 championship. Yes, we've lost our league, but 712 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:39,440 it's nothing to do with us or how we want to go racing. 713 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,760 And of course then we carried on. 714 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,480 Yeah, it that 92 season was almost a season of two parts for 715 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,000 you in many ways, not just with what happened with with that 716 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,480 sort of side of it, but also you had the new 318, which started 717 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,120 the year pretty uncompetitively for both yourself and Pro Drive. 718 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,760 But then you got to the middle of the season and you guys at 719 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,600 Victoria Lee Racing got the car sorted. 720 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,120 It was running at the front, but it wasn't running at the front 721 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,040 with Pro Drive. They still were struggling. 722 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,920 Had you found something in the car that Pro Drive hadn't? 723 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,960 Yeah, it was basically some flexing in the rear suspension 724 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,000 arms that that that Victoria and Steve particularly had 725 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,720 identified as the problem. Steve with his incredible 726 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,320 feedback and and Victoria with his attention to detail and 727 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,040 studying everything. And I identified this and this 728 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,920 is what was basically causing handling problems for both us 729 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,400 and Pro Drive. But we've got to realise what 730 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,640 the situation was first and got a fix for it very quickly. 731 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,320 And that was what transformed the car. 732 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,280 It was nothing else on the car. It was basically getting that 733 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,480 that problem sorted. And yeah, as you say, then we 734 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,680 went on A roll. Five race wins in a row in that 735 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,480 fear, which is almost unheard of in touring car racing. 736 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,000 To do that in the middle of the season. 737 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,480 It meant that coming into into the finale, it was yourself, 738 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,600 Cleland and Hoy for the title, qualifying for that race that 739 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,360 put all three of you in the middle of the pack. 740 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,360 That was always probably likely to lead to a crazy race, wasn't 741 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,560 it? Yeah, I mean it was one of those 742 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,840 weekends, you know, obviously it was a massive amount of pressure 743 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,880 on all of us because we were all manufacturer factory drivers or 744 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,240 works drivers. So, you know, all the 745 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:32,360 manufacturers desperately wanted to win. 746 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,960 They'd all got their mainstream press adverts ready for the for 747 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,440 the Monday morning if they won. And you know, the pressure was 748 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,120 on for the word go. But because of weather 749 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,120 conditions in qualifying, we none of us have qualified 750 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,800 particularly well, although we're all sort of around each 751 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,160 other so it didn't really matter, it was just a case of 752 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,000 who was going to finish in front of the other two to win the 753 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,120 championship. It was always going to be a an 754 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,200 interesting race, wasn't it? With the three title 755 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,480 protagonists at mid grid, it was always going to be a a crazy 756 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,600 one. Yeah, because we weren't really 757 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,120 interested in anybody else in the race or what position we 758 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,640 were in. The only thing we were 759 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,600 interested in was where were the other two cars? 760 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,520 Because whoever finished in front of the other two was going 761 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,320 to win it. So it was irrelevant where we 762 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,720 were in the race. I mean, it's the only race I've 763 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:27,840 ever gone into where I I had absolutely no intention of 764 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,800 trying to win it at all. I was just trying to beat the 765 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,960 other two guys. I don't think I've ever started 766 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,760 the race where I didn't at least have the intention on the line 767 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,360 of trying to win the race. But at that one it was nothing 768 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,960 was further from my mind. It was it was just about 769 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,480 managing the race and trying to be in front of the other two 770 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,360 when the when the flag fell. And that that winning streak 771 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,080 that you went on prior, though, I mean, it's easily, and I've 772 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,560 said this before in in previous episodes of when this this 773 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,320 championship year, especially the finales come into 774 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,040 conversation like five races on the bounce. 775 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,120 I mean, that's pretty impressive. 776 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,520 Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean to. 777 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,560 Put yourself in that position. Like, you'd probably come out of 778 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,080 nowhere in a lot of people's eyes, really. 779 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,400 Like almost unheard of. Isn't it? 780 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,480 Yeah, like if that's like it's hard to get repeated now. 781 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,160 I'd never known back then as competitive as. 782 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,200 It was so, well, I think it was 6 races in normal, 5 on the 783 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,600 bounce that I won that year. But yeah, so I came into that 784 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,600 final with momentum on my side. You know, for as far as I was 785 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,920 concerned, I was actually probably the favorite, despite 786 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,240 the fact that John was still leaving the points. 787 00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:43,720 I felt like I was probably the one who who had momentum and and 788 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,240 speed on my side. But I think the most important 789 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,920 aspect of that meeting and one that I have sent on countless, 790 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,400 and they're going into a championship desire to decide 791 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,920 and subsequently they've either said, yeah, that was the best 792 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,760 advice or that I ever heard. But basically I just knew that 793 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:08,960 out of the three of us, whoever wanted it badly enough was going 794 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,280 to win it. It wasn't something you could 795 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,560 let fall in your lap. You couldn't choke or fold or 796 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,400 have it fall in your lap. You had to want it more than the 797 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,000 others. And, and that and I, I've always 798 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,720 felt I had an absolute burning will to win when I went racing, 799 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,160 you know, in latter years when I was 57 years old and I was 800 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,720 beating people in Carrera Cup who were half my age and half my 801 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:42,240 weight and who done every bit of preparation they had to do with 802 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:44,840 their engineers in the scene doing everything. 803 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,160 And I'd run down from the comfy boxes, I'd be doing touring cars 804 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,680 and jump in the car at the last minute when they'd all prepared 805 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,240 and got ready and I'd go win. And, and people say, well, how 806 00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:57,960 do you do that? And I would say it's a, the one 807 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,520 thing I've got that they haven't is the will to win. 808 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:07,560 And that's based on not having excuses because modern racing, 809 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,480 you know, drivers will do their driving, they'll look at the 810 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,320 data, they'll see where they could have gone 3/10 quicker. 811 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,760 And that's great. I've got the excuse for them not 812 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,240 being 3/10 quicker, but I know where to find it. 813 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:21,600 Whereas I come to the school of you either did or you didn't. 814 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,440 And you know, the only way you could overcome that was with 815 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,960 your will to win because that's, that's the ingredient you can't 816 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,880 measure. And so go back to the final 817 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,720 meeting, it was in my nature that I wanted to have the the 818 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,040 the biggest desire to win because I knew that John was 819 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,880 most likely to choke because he'd been leading the 820 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,040 championship all year and it was his to lose. 821 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,880 And that put the pressure on him. 822 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,120 With me coming off this great run of results, I felt he was 823 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,240 the one that was most likely to choke him and and you know, have 824 00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,760 it all to lose and that this did actually prove to be the case. 825 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:09,920 Will was, if you like, the most level headed, sensible guy who 826 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,680 probably had it all figured out but probably didn't have the 827 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,720 best car. So, you know, with all things 828 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:21,040 considered, I went into that thinking actually I was the 829 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,360 favorite and I was going to be the one that was going to win. 830 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,360 Despite people's views on what went on at that race meeting, I 831 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,040 think it's fair to say that that that that race, that that 832 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,080 meeting brought the attention of touring cars to the mass 833 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,000 motorsport of the mass of motorsport fans because it was 834 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,480 niche is the wrong word, but it certainly wasn't mainstream 835 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,200 until that title decider. Oh yeah, I mean touring cars to 836 00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:51,080 everyone and we. People still talk about it now. 837 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,400 And yeah, you know, I know, I know Adam thinks I'm, I'm, I'm 838 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,960 fed up to the back teeth of talking about it, particularly 839 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,480 as sort of two years ago was the 30th anniversary and it was done 840 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,480 to death that year. But you know, I, I, I can't not 841 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,360 talk about it because it, it was a defining moment in my career 842 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,560 and in, and as you say, in the popularity of touring cars, 843 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,120 people still come up to me and go. 844 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,840 I was there that day. I was in the crowd, you know, 845 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,760 and it, it, I've loved touring cars ever since. 846 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,560 It was just the highlights of everything that about 847 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:33,160 competition and motorsport, that that transcends normal sport and 848 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,000 human emotion and everything else. 849 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,560 It was all encapsulated in that race. 850 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:42,560 So I'm forever delighted that it's, it's the race that people 851 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,920 are talking about and that I came out as the champion. 852 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,280 But with the, the other side of the coin that there's always 853 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,960 this, this element of, well, you know, you wouldn't have won it 854 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,920 if Steve hadn't had his incident with John. 855 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,000 I maintain I still would have won it, but no one would be 856 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,200 talking about that year in the way they still do if it hadn't 857 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,520 happened. So, you know, it's, it's, you 858 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,280 know, the other, the other joke I make is, well, I, I said I've 859 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,240 actually made a living off it for 13 years. 860 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,920 It gave me a profile that you know I wouldn't have otherwise 861 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,240 have had. And, and I always tell people 862 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,360 this that it, it was not decided there. 863 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,720 Yes, there was a shunt, but there was shunts at other races, 864 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,400 someone who had like mechanical failure, somebody would have 865 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,680 been punted in the gravel. Somebody would have, you know, 866 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,760 like it wasn't decided there. You run six races, 5 on the 867 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,720 bounce, but you're firmly in the position that you were in to get 868 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,400 your elbows out and to be the the one that wanted to win it 869 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,160 the most. It wasn't solely because of that 870 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,800 incident. You look at you know it, it'd 871 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,560 take hours to do, but go through every single incident that 872 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,320 happened throughout the season. This is no difference to any 873 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,080 championship that we watch now, whether it be, you know, Formula 874 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,400 One or just like, I don't know, if Lucid doesn't have a shit 875 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,560 car, they either won the championship or if he hadn't had 876 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,160 a mechanical failure, he'd won that race. 877 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,080 Yeah, but life's full of ifs and buts. 878 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,880 Well, you understand that because you're a driver and you 879 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:08,680 you. Know what happens? 880 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,640 Happened. But if you're, if you're, if 881 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,840 you're just a spectator and you're just a viewer, you will. 882 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,520 And especially if you'll, you'll have a bias towards one or the 883 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,600 other person. You will always think that one 884 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,600 moment has defined the championship. 885 00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:27,520 Didn't it make touring cars fantastic? 886 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,440 No, no, it did. I know completely did. 887 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,240 And it's an iconic moment and it, and I think it like you 888 00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:34,360 said, 30 years on, people are still talking about it now. 889 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,560 We still talk about it and lots of people talk about it and it 890 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,720 is an iconic moment in the history of touring cars. 891 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:48,440 Yeah. For this series of Stories from 892 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,160 Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands 893 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,000 Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2, which is 894 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,720 being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June 895 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,680 2024. The award nominated event was a 896 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,480 smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans 897 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,520 back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate 898 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,720 one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras. 899 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,240 To enter the competition, just answer the following question. 900 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,680 Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories from Super 901 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,160 Touring? Send your answers to pod at 902 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,840 1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later 903 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:30,960 episode. This series. 904 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,360 Meanwhile, let's get back to the episode. 905 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,040 Coming off that, then at the end of 1992 in BMWUK withdrawing at 906 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,040 the end of that season, you made the move to Renault's new 907 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:53,640 programme for 1993, only for BMW to then withdraw from the DTO 908 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,240 and play Schnitzer in the BTCC for 1993. 909 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,520 Was that frustrating? I mean, did you have knowledge 910 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,400 of of that happening for Schnitzer in 93 in advance of 911 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,360 signing for an or was that a sort of situation of then sort 912 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,440 of being frustrated sort of leaving BMW to then see them 913 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,280 come back in? Was that a frustrating winter 914 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,560 for that reason? It was probably the worst, the 915 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,600 worst moment, my motorsport career, part of my accident 916 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,600 following on directly from the best moment in my career because 917 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:28,800 having secured the championship, I, you know, I thought and I was 918 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,960 led to believe that at that point, you know, I would stay 919 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,880 with BMW, I'd have a contract for the following year. 920 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,880 You know, that was everything I ever wanted was was that that 921 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:46,560 was it the rule, the the disagreement between BMW and 922 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,440 tape about the rules involving wage and ABS and all the other 923 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,080 things that they were arguing about. 924 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,840 I didn't foresee BMW pulling out and I didn't when they did pull 925 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,640 out, I didn't think it was merely a, a foot stamping 926 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,760 exercise. I really thought they were out. 927 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:10,320 I thought that was it. And you know, so, you know, from 928 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,160 thinking I was going to drive in a bit of Dublin to realize and 929 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:14,920 this just wasn't even an option anymore. 930 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,920 I had no inkling, you know, there's no knowledge. 931 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,320 I mean, maybe if I'd been a bit more experienced, I would have 932 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,800 looked into it a bit closer and worked out maybe what was 933 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,840 happening, maybe not being quite so quick to sign for Renault. 934 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,840 But you know, the Renault deal they came along, it was they 935 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,920 wanted to sort of state their intentions from the word go. 936 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,800 You know, they, they saw hiring me as the, the reigning champion 937 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,680 as a good move. The money was good. 938 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,960 I, I saw no reason to sort of think that Renault wouldn't do 939 00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,040 an amazing job. They were a company born and 940 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,240 bred in motor sports. So I thought it would be 941 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,360 absolutely fantastic, you know, having signed for them. 942 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,320 I've been over to France, seen the the the development car, 943 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,240 which was basically like a Bull Bed Rd. car, which immediately 944 00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:20,840 alerted my fears to then have BMW settle their differences 945 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,520 with Toca technically and reaffirm they're coming back 946 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:30,360 with Schnitzer, where it's just an absolute body blow, you know, 947 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:36,040 And of course, all the time I'm watching Joe Wiglevoque, you 948 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,160 know, winning races and taking the championship in the car I 949 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,520 felt I should have been in and would have been doing the same, 950 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,000 you know, it was absolutely gut wrenching. 951 00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:49,760 So yeah, very disappointing. But that's, that's, that's the 952 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,720 force in the road that every driver has in motorsport. 953 00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:57,560 You know, you just can't odds it sometimes which way it goes. 954 00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,200 And there's an element of luck to it. 955 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,680 You know, I can look back and think, actually I might have 956 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,120 played that slightly differently, have I had a bit 957 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,920 more experience and knowledge of the politics of motorsport and 958 00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,440 things. But you know, at the time I 959 00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:12,760 thought I was doing the right thing. 960 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:14,680 Do you think just that back to that team? 961 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,360 Obviously it was some years ago. Do you think now that probably 962 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,360 wouldn't happen because you'd happily have a manager if you're 963 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,160 on board now like most drivers do to help help with that side 964 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,120 of things more, do you think? I think certainly now there's a 965 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,760 lot more and later in the 90s, obviously there was a lot more 966 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,400 professionalism came to it. But you know, I, I always did my 967 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,280 own deals. I never had a manager. 968 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,080 I always did everything myself. Certainly those days very few 969 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,960 people did, you know, you know, obviously I mean Steve, well he 970 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,160 didn't have a manager and he he'd been a factory driver for 971 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,600 Ford and to Wolf inshore and BMW. 972 00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,320 So I didn't really particularly sort of see the need. 973 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,400 I'd always been commercially quite savvy myself. 974 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,880 But I think the reality is perhaps if I'd sort of thought 975 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,560 about it more behind the scenes or had somebody that could say 976 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,400 hold on a second, this is might get sorted with BMW and hang on 977 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,000 a bit. I could have played, you know, I 978 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,640 could have strung Renault along for a bit. 979 00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,640 I could have done all sorts of things and I didn't play that. 980 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,720 Yeah, but also you've got Ren on the table, one of, you know, 981 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:29,160 coming in it's strong like you said, salary was good coming 982 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,200 coming into, you know, put their put their mark in the sand. 983 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,160 Really here we are and we're going to have a proper go at 984 00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,880 see, I suppose it's hard knowing that this opportunity here, your 985 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,240 reigning champion, that opportunity is there. 986 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,400 Do you hang around and wait potentially not to happen and 987 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,000 then all of a sudden you'll be kicking yourself not taking 988 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,160 this. So I think God, I took the 989 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:50,520 Renault thing but but going back to the the Red House office, so 990 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,520 when you went over to to France and used to see the test car, 991 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,720 was there a certain handbrake installed? 992 00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,600 Into this vehicle, yeah. There was, did you think, hold 993 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,480 on a minute, do they have they saw me to do rallying here or? 994 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,280 Yeah, I, I, I mean, I couldn't believe it. 995 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,680 The car had standard pedals, so it didn't have a proper pedal 996 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,480 box. It had standard pedals and a 997 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,760 handbrake. And it was, it was about 6 foot 998 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,160 off the ground as well. And, and I mean my, and they 999 00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:21,120 presented this very proudly, you know, like, you know, I'm 1000 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:26,440 thinking shit. Like a Formula One and yeah and 1001 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,400 the. Only thing I could say why is it 1002 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,040 not a bloody handbrake? And they said, Oh, well, that's 1003 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,640 because Jean Ragnotti is our is our test driver and he likes to 1004 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,720 do handbrake turns and skids. And I thought, Jesus, this is. 1005 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,880 This is going to take a while. Yeah, how? 1006 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,800 Because you can't tell people that or it's very difficult 1007 00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,840 politically to tell people they're doing not doing about a 1008 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,840 good job because they they think they produce the best they can. 1009 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,120 So yeah, it was. I knew we were going to have in 1010 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,080 for a long year at that point. So first impressions were not 1011 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:01,840 good then? We could certainly say that. 1012 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:03,520 They certainly were. No, no. 1013 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,120 They were, despite the uncompetitiveness of the the 1014 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,360 Renault 19 you had that year, you did take the first win of 1015 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:17,040 what was many in that period for Renault in the BTCC at the 1016 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,880 European Grand Prix support race at Donnington Park. 1017 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,400 A day where it wasn't just yourself showing wet weather 1018 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,680 skills, it was also a certain eye and Stena. 1019 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,520 So that was has been a surreal day to have yourself alongside 1020 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,920 Senna as one of the victors. Well, of course, it was the 1021 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,920 first and only Grand Prix at Donnington for a start, which 1022 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,600 was, you know, big event. You know, I personally have 1023 00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,920 always loved driving in the rain and they had a lot of success 1024 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,520 race, right? It never bothered me at all, but 1025 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,960 it was the one and only time that the car did actually 1026 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,360 perform well. Probably because it was. 6 foot 1027 00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,000 off the ground and avoided all the water. 1028 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,400 Six off the ground, soft and had Michelin tired. 1029 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,760 So you could use the handbrake at the Melbourne Hairpin. 1030 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:08,840 Exactly, it's probably the only time I wish they'd left it in 1031 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:09,840 actually. Yeah, yeah. 1032 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,600 But yeah, I mean, you know, it was a great day. 1033 01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,440 It was a brief moment of rest, fight, You know, it was a great, 1034 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,800 great day in terms of that. It was nice to get a win for 1035 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,960 Renault. I knew it flattered to be seen. 1036 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,800 That was down to the weather conditions that one of the 1037 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,920 funniest moments was actually in the park firm 1/2 as at the end 1038 01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,800 of the race, I got out the car and Charlie Lamb from Schnitzer 1039 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:39,960 was there reporting back to Munich about the race, hear him 1040 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,160 on the radio. And I heard they obviously said 1041 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,680 to him who won the race and he said Tim Harvey in the Renault. 1042 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,680 And then they obviously said, can you repeat that? 1043 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,240 Because, because he said, yeah, that's right, Tim Harvey in the 1044 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,520 red. And I thought that tells you 1045 01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,880 how, how, how what everyone else's expectations were. 1046 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,000 But yeah, I mean, look, it was it was a good day. 1047 01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,960 I always laugh about, you know, Senna was actually my hero. 1048 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:11,760 I, I, I've seen Senna racing carts and he was really special. 1049 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,800 He'd always been my hero. That's why my crash helmet is 1050 01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,240 yellow. When I started karting, my my 1051 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,880 crash helmet was yellow because of watching him in the World 1052 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:27,000 Championships in Novell. And he was just absolutely 1053 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,760 mesmeric to watch in a go Kart, in a Kart. 1054 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,720 And so actually, yeah. I mean, I always joke that, you 1055 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,480 know, the real expert on the day was me and not Senna. 1056 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,000 But yeah, quite a nice thing to share if you like. 1057 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,640 Moving on from the 19 into 94 and I'm sure you were glad to 1058 01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,440 get rid of that thing. The Renault moved to the the 1059 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:56,640 Laguna and Renault progressed and started winning races. 1060 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,320 You and Alan were winning races, but these were front wheel drive 1061 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,480 machines. I mean you'd come through the 1062 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,200 ranks single seaters big, you know the big RS5 hundreds, all 1063 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,480 rear wheel drive machines. Same at Le Mans. 1064 01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:14,400 How much of A was it alien? Was it an alien concept to you 1065 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,160 racing these front wheel drive machines or? 1066 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:20,360 No, I mean don't forget I've done, I've, I've, I've done 1067 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,240 those years in or couple years in the MPU metro. 1068 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,080 Channel, yes. The Metro, yes, yeah. 1069 01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:31,440 But that was my first and prior to prior to the Renault, my only 1070 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,640 front wheel drive experience. As you say, everything else has 1071 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,080 been in rear wheel drive from, you know, go karts to Formula 1072 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:43,680 Ford to all the other cars I've driven, production salons, TVRS, 1073 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,080 sports cars, Group C, everything had been rear wheel drive. 1074 01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,640 And whilst driving a front wheel drive car is a different 1075 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:59,360 exercise technically and one that, you know, I certainly 1076 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,520 wasn't bad at, it wasn't what came naturally to me. 1077 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,720 And as the cars developed, you know, certainly by the time 1078 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:13,120 we're into 94 now, the cars are getting fully heavily developed. 1079 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:20,440 And I think in my hearts, I knew that actually front wheel drive 1080 01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:24,360 really wasn't for me, but I couldn't say anything. 1081 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,840 Obviously, you know, I'm being paid to drive the car. 1082 01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,320 You're never going to admit that, that that you have any 1083 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,080 weakness. But it wasn't it wasn't natural 1084 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,160 to me. It was something I had to work 1085 01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,240 at. And I actually never enjoyed. 1086 01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,040 I've never enjoyed driving a front wheel drive car in the way 1087 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,160 that I enjoy driving a rear wheel drive car. 1088 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,120 And I can say it now because it doesn't matter, but, you know, 1089 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,920 and I think, and that's when I realized that if you like people 1090 01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:57,200 like Alan Menu, Ricard Weigel, you know, they, they actually 1091 01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,840 had a little bit of an edge on me with just technique in that 1092 01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,280 they were better suited to a front of the drive car. 1093 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,760 And that's why, you know, I mean, I, I, I look at it 1094 01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,400 nowadays and you know, drivers still still say the same thing, 1095 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,960 that this makes no difference whether it's front or rear wheel 1096 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:17,520 drive. But I know that they're only 1097 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,160 saying that because they have to say it. 1098 01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,480 The exception to the rule is Ash Sutton, who is quite remarkable. 1099 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,360 He is the only driver to have won the British entire 1100 01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,440 championship in front and rear wheel drive cars and has the the 1101 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,560 natural ability in both. I haven't seen the like of that 1102 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,880 among from any other driver ever. 1103 01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,840 I would say that every out of the driver would tell if they 1104 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,440 could tell you honestly, privately, they'd say they have 1105 01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:46,760 a preference from one or the other. 1106 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,640 Yeah. So yeah, that was that was that 1107 01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,160 was the case for me anyway. So with with obviously we saw 1108 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,720 you in Alain reunited at Super Touring Power last year at 1109 01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:58,640 Brands Hatch. Did you always get on well as 1110 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:00,360 team mates? What'd you do at the moment? 1111 01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,480 Not always. Let's say there was an there was 1112 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:05,840 an infamous letter, wasn't there? 1113 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,040 Yeah, there was a letter I published a little while back. 1114 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:15,000 Yeah. I mean, look, Alain was really 1115 01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,400 competitive. He was a very driven, 1116 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:22,560 competitive guy. And, you know, he wanted to win 1117 01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,200 really badly. And he was a bloody good driver, 1118 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,040 you know, really naturally talented, very quick. 1119 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:34,920 But I mean, you know, when I beat him, all the toys would fly 1120 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,680 out without the pram. I can remember hearing it 1121 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,720 absolutely gutted when I won that race at Donington because 1122 01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,280 it was the first win for Renault. 1123 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,640 And, you know, I mean, he was absolutely gutted. 1124 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,560 I mean, of course he had the last laugh because, you know, he 1125 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,040 stayed with Red now and had far more success. 1126 01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:57,040 But yeah, I mean, he and he and I, we had a great amount of 1127 01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,360 respect for each other and we are good friends now, you know, 1128 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:05,600 genuinely good friends and have been, you know, ever since we 1129 01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,440 stopped being teammates, really. But, you know, nobody wants to 1130 01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,520 be being beaten by a teammate, of course. 1131 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,680 But, you know, like I said, he had the last laugh. 1132 01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,400 He he beat me more than I beat him and went on to, you know, 1133 01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,640 far greater success. Touching on that, at the end of 1134 01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,520 94, as you mentioned, sort of Alan stayed with the team, you 1135 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:27,560 moved on. Did you get a chance to stay 1136 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,960 with Renault at the end of the 1994 season or was it was it 1137 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:32,680 just that they chose to go in a different direction? 1138 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:38,440 What happened with that? I, I had, I had, I had some 1139 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:42,040 fallings out with Renault management because I've been 1140 01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:47,280 very openly critical of the way the program was being run, you 1141 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,680 know, because I felt that was my job as you know, the established 1142 01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,920 driver to try and be honest and lead the team forward. 1143 01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,120 But as I said before, nobody likes to be told that their 1144 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,080 efforts aren't in the right direction or good enough because 1145 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,080 everybody's doing the best that they can. 1146 01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:07,640 But the reality was it wasn't the right way to go racing in 93 1147 01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,240 to 94 MCT. The team that were running it 1148 01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:15,640 metal concept technology, they they weren't an established race 1149 01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,640 team of the level that should have been running a factory 1150 01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,480 British touring car operation. They got the deal because the 1151 01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:27,040 owners were mates of Tim Jackson at Renault UK and it was a bit 1152 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:28,840 that's the only reason they got the deal. 1153 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,920 And you know, I don't there's a place for loyalty. 1154 01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,400 But you know, when you're trying to do a job, you go to the best 1155 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,880 people to do the job. And there were countless other 1156 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,720 race operations that could have done probably a better job. 1157 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:46,080 Renault obviously agreed with you because eventually they went 1158 01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,200 to Williams. So exactly, you know, you, you 1159 01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:49,720 were right. So yeah. 1160 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,080 But I upset a lot of people it. Just didn't like that. 1161 01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,840 You were right. Yeah, I upset people along the 1162 01:07:55,840 --> 01:08:00,080 way and you know, and now I'm being French speaking, had a 1163 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,880 much better involvement with Renault in France and Sedamo, 1164 01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,240 the engine suppliers and everybody else where I was sort 1165 01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:13,160 of seen as a sort of slightly the leader of troublemaker if 1166 01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:17,960 you like. So I think it was, it was a 1167 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,399 district we both knew was we weren't going to continue our 1168 01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:29,040 relationship. So you you moved to Volvo for 1169 01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,680 that year and it saw you team up with Ricard Rydell? 1170 01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:35,720 Yeah, talk about how the frying. Pan, I was going to say, yeah, 1171 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,560 so you've gone from a French speaking teammate in a French 1172 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,080 team to a Swedish driver, Swedish manufacturer. 1173 01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:46,000 Yeah, also also with a prodigious talent as well. 1174 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,960 Yes, yeah. You know, and and there were 1175 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,080 always whispers that Ricard always got preferential 1176 01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,399 treatment of Volvo. I mean, that's a sort of, is 1177 01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:57,880 that a tough environment to go into and was that the case? 1178 01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,399 Yeah, well, it was really because obviously Ricard had 1179 01:09:01,399 --> 01:09:04,880 been there for the word go with the with the year before with 1180 01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,960 the estate car and it was established and all the rest of 1181 01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:11,880 it, you know, they get let Yan Lamas go because effectively 1182 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:13,640 Ricard had blown him out of water. 1183 01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,560 And you know, it was, it was a tough gig. 1184 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,040 But actually I'd never been frightened of team mates. 1185 01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,920 You know, I'd had Steve sober as a team mate Rouse. 1186 01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:28,080 I'd always had good team mates. So it didn't really worry me. 1187 01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:33,319 I don't say didn't worry me. I suppose I was quite happy to 1188 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,800 take on that challenge and actually in fact I was looking 1189 01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,200 forward to driving for TWR. I'd known Tom Walkinshaw from, 1190 01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,560 you know, sports car racing when I they ran the Silk Cup Jaguars 1191 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,160 and I raced against them with spice. 1192 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,880 So, you know, we'd actually had a good respect between us. 1193 01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,200 I think it was probably the fact that what I'd done in sports car 1194 01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,600 racing that probably got me that driver Tom, rather than anything 1195 01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,600 else. And, you know, I actually 1196 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:05,240 enjoyed very much the team. I Ricard was a fabulous 1197 01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:07,400 teammate. He's a wonderful human being, a 1198 01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,000 great person. You know, we're still good 1199 01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:14,760 friends and we never, ever had a, a crossword between us during 1200 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,320 that year. It was actually, it was a really 1201 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,920 good fun year in terms of, you know, everything going pretty 1202 01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:22,640 well. Yeah, I was going to say I saw a 1203 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,440 piece before where I can't remember who it was. 1204 01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,280 It was either Ricard saying about you or you saying about 1205 01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:30,280 Ricard about how good your relationship was. 1206 01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,440 And lots of golf. Yeah, a lot of golf, yeah. 1207 01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,840 I mean, don't forget in those days we had we had a full time 1208 01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:42,920 test team, you know, the cars were, you know, front side cars. 1209 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,520 So everything on them was free. We didn't have a control path, 1210 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:49,800 so we'd be out testing every week with with cars. 1211 01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:54,000 So, you know, we, we, we had a set of clubs in the, in the 1212 01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:57,760 transportation, you know, after debrief at the end of the day in 1213 01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,240 the summer when it's light until 10:00, we, we often play golf. 1214 01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,280 And and didn't you do that at Knock Hill as well? 1215 01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,400 Didn't you tell me the story once where you did Knock Hill 1216 01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,120 like or it with a briefing or? Yeah, we paid off in about 15 1217 01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:11,840 minutes. Yeah, well, we were. 1218 01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,160 I remember the year, that year we were in Knock Hill for a 1219 01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:15,800 week. We were up there for the whole 1220 01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:19,520 week and we played golf every single day at some point. 1221 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:24,120 It was brilliant. But actually, you know, golf is 1222 01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:28,160 a great escapism from racing because you're just completely 1223 01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:31,040 away from it. It is a singular individual 1224 01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:32,720 sport. It's not a team sport. 1225 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:37,280 And you know, whatever we racing drivers might say about the team 1226 01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,440 and us and all the rest of it, you know, we're selfish pastors 1227 01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:42,320 and we're really only in it for ourselves. 1228 01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,760 But we know that actually we have to say thank you to the 1229 01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:47,560 team because without them we can't do it. 1230 01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:52,480 But really, yeah, he's it's a man against man competition. 1231 01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,600 And actually, that's that. Golf is the same. 1232 01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,840 Yeah, well that that season you had a very strong start, didn't 1233 01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,600 you? Including a clean sweep of a 1234 01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,400 very wet Brands Hatch and took the early points lead. 1235 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,080 But Rydell seemed to sort of pull some results out of the bag 1236 01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,360 as it sort of went on and and progressed a bit. 1237 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,640 More, I mean, Ricard, was he, he, he was a fantastic 1238 01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:15,960 qualifier. We do all this testing and you 1239 01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,200 know, I would, I would match him in testing and there'd be, you 1240 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:23,320 know, nothing between US. And then you do free practice 1241 01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,040 and there'd be nothing between US. 1242 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,680 And then when it came to qualify, he would suddenly find 1243 01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:34,080 a 10th and 1/2 or a little bit, you know, if his optimum lap 1244 01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:39,800 time was a 122 seven, he would do a 122 five or six. 1245 01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,680 And, and I would do the 122 seven that I thought was that 1246 01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,440 that was the, you know, the perfect lap, if you like that up 1247 01:12:47,440 --> 01:12:51,640 until that based on the he would just always find something and 1248 01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,720 that would usually put him three or four places up on the on the 1249 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,240 grid or something. And from there, you know, you're 1250 01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,760 going to get a better result. You know, I actually probably on 1251 01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,520 reflection, go back to the fact that he was a better front wheel 1252 01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,800 drive driver than me, you know, as simple as that. 1253 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,160 But it didn't, it didn't really faze me. 1254 01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:14,040 I mean, I, I still, you know, I still enjoyed the year and 1255 01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:18,360 enjoyed the success that we had. You sure he just wasn't, you 1256 01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,120 know, bit of different mapping for him for qualifying or? 1257 01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,720 Might have been like, like not like. 1258 01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:26,880 It might have matched. Him and you've you've been like, 1259 01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,000 you know, you know, at least the team always knew they were 1260 01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:31,120 getting the absolute best they could out the car because you're 1261 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,120 both neck and neck in terms of times and qualifying practice 1262 01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:35,720 tests and all that. But all of a sudden qualifying 1263 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,960 comes and it's like, oh. Yeah, well, maybe he had a bit 1264 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,040 more advance on the on the map or something like that, you 1265 01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:44,720 know, I don't know. But the fact is he still 1266 01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,800 delivered the lap, you know, he still did it. 1267 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:51,000 But, you know, yeah, he, he, he, he, he, he definitely. 1268 01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,080 Yeah. I mean, whenever we had 1269 01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,800 development parts, he would always get first. 1270 01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,000 And that was just the way he was. 1271 01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:03,960 He'd already established himself as that, that number one in the 1272 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,120 team. But you know, how much of the 1273 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,520 the difference between us was down to Hearts or him? 1274 01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,440 I couldn't really tell you, but you know he he certainly 1275 01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,120 deserved the the success that he had you. 1276 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:21,440 You also that you had Tom Walkinshaw as your team boss, 1277 01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:23,880 but what was it like working with him because he seemed like 1278 01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:29,760 a real character of the paddock. Tom was a a nightmare to work 1279 01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:33,520 for, but if you were just a competitor, he was great. 1280 01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:38,080 I mean, as I said, you know, I, I've been a competitor against 1281 01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:42,920 him in sports cars and you know, we'd always exchanged chat with 1282 01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,360 the paddock. He was perfectly convivial and 1283 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:50,360 normal and everything else. The moment I went to work for 1284 01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:54,560 him, he was a tiring and there's no other describing it. 1285 01:14:55,680 --> 01:15:01,680 I mean, back in sports cars, it would have been in about 1990, I 1286 01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,240 think, in the world's sports cars at Donnington. 1287 01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:11,320 And the result was 2 S on Mercedes and the Silk Cut Jaguar 1288 01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:14,080 in 3rd. And I was fourth in the Spice, 1289 01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,040 but the Jaguar got disqualified because it had used too much 1290 01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,880 fuel. And so we inherited third place, 1291 01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:24,920 but we didn't get to stand on the podium because it happened 1292 01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,400 after the race. And I thought there was no 1293 01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:29,040 chance of ever seeing that trophy. 1294 01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,000 You know, Tom would smash it up before he gave it to anyone 1295 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:35,200 else. And then that week in the post 1296 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:38,920 came the trope, the 3rd place trophy and a note from Tom 1297 01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,800 saying, yeah, well done. And I thought, well, that's, 1298 01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:45,440 that's something that, you know, nobody would normally know about 1299 01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:47,880 that you hear about the bad side, but that was good. 1300 01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,560 The bad side of him being the boss was that a whole TWR group 1301 01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:55,520 was Ronald Mafia Princeton. And everyone was petrified of 1302 01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,920 their head manager and line manager in front and all the 1303 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,520 rest of it. And wherever he turned up a 1304 01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,840 race, it changed the whole atmosphere in the team, and not 1305 01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:09,040 for the better. But you know, that meeting at 1306 01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:14,400 Brands when I won the first race in the wet and I thought I'll 1307 01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:16,960 ask, you know, team will all be happy and celebrate and all the 1308 01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:18,440 rest of it. But they were all quite sort of 1309 01:16:18,440 --> 01:16:21,560 calm. And that's because in Tom's 1310 01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,960 eyes, winning the race was merely what you should do. 1311 01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:27,520 You know, it wasn't no cause for great celebration. 1312 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,960 It was merely just the the culmination of what you've done 1313 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:31,880 and what you. Should do. 1314 01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:37,160 And, and I remember coming in after the race and, you know, 1315 01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:39,880 expecting a sort of well done chat or something. 1316 01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:41,440 And he said, well, that was adequate. 1317 01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:45,960 That was his, that was his description of winning the race. 1318 01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:49,360 That was adequate. And then between the races, 1319 01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,920 because we only had 10 minutes in those days, the start of 1320 01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,720 those have failed. And I couldn't get out onto the 1321 01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:58,440 grid for age 2. And I was in the pit lane and 1322 01:16:58,440 --> 01:17:01,680 Tom came down and opened the door to sort of give me some 1323 01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,160 words of advice. And I said to well, that was 1324 01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:10,320 less than adequate, Tom, about the start of those and then and 1325 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:13,400 then set off at the back for the second race, which got grid 1326 01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,040 flagged on on the first lap because of an accident. 1327 01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:19,520 And I got to start in my original grid position and then 1328 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,840 won the second race. And I thought I was dying to get 1329 01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:26,080 back to the pits and sort of see what Tom had to say then because 1330 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,280 I thought, well, he's got to say that's more than adequate now. 1331 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,000 But he actually fucked off in his helicopter already. 1332 01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:39,120 So I've never had the conversation with him, but yeah, 1333 01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:40,520 yeah. I mean, you know, there was a 1334 01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,400 good at a bad that was the bad at Tom. 1335 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:45,760 But the good was, like I said, in, you know, when he sent me 1336 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:49,960 the trophy. And and also then in 89 when I 1337 01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:54,320 drove for him in the Volvo at Bathurst and had a huge accident 1338 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:57,480 on an oil spill and got admitted to hospital. 1339 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,280 And the first thing he did was, you know, sent me a first class 1340 01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:03,360 airplane ticket to get home more comfortably. 1341 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,800 You know, you think well and that was having written off the 1342 01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,440 car and sold to Jim Richards to race in the Aussie Championship 1343 01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:14,400 the following year, so you know he'd. 1344 01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:16,520 Expensive weekend for him, wasn't it? 1345 01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:18,160 It was. But you know, he, he showed his 1346 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,200 human side. So you know, he, he was a man of 1347 01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:22,680 contradiction. I'll say that. 1348 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:28,800 So you spent that single year at Volvo and then took the move to 1349 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:34,320 Peugeot in 96 where you debuted the new four O 6, which and 1350 01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:37,400 unfortunately like most Peugeot's at that time, was 1351 01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,200 uncompetitive. Was it ever hard if you had a 1352 01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,160 say you had an uncompetitive car like that four or six that year? 1353 01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:44,680 Was it? Did you ever find it hard to 1354 01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,720 motivate yourself if you had such a limitation with your cars 1355 01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:50,920 or or was that never an issue? No, it was never an issue. 1356 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:55,760 I mean, Adam will tell you that as a driver, irrelevant of sort 1357 01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,520 of where you qualified or what we did, and I'm not including 1358 01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:04,960 that 92 race that I talked about before, but inevitably, wherever 1359 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,680 you've qualified, you sit on the grid and you think that you can 1360 01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,320 make the difference and that you have a chance. 1361 01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:13,160 You know, the racing driver is the eternal optimist. 1362 01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:18,720 It's only when realist realism sets in that he changes the 1363 01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,800 attitude. But you know, you always think 1364 01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:24,400 you can make a difference or make it work and hard work pays 1365 01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:26,920 off. I mean, I think I'll correct 1366 01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:28,480 you. The 406 hadn't had a year 1367 01:19:28,480 --> 01:19:30,480 before. Or was it the 4:05 that they've 1368 01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,320 had that they can't? Either 96 was the first year of 1369 01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,160 the 406, the red total one. Right. 1370 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:36,800 OK. Yeah. 1371 01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,440 So they brought the 4:05 before with Simon Harrison and Patrick. 1372 01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:41,720 That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1373 01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:49,720 But yeah, I mean, look, it was it was, it was a paid program, 1374 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:54,360 you know, it was. There was no reason for me not 1375 01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,480 to do it. You know, the Peugeot had 1376 01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:01,600 obviously great success in Europe with Laura Aiello. 1377 01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,760 I thought that, you know, we could replicate some of that. 1378 01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:11,600 But you know, as as you well know, there was absolutely 0 1379 01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:16,200 cooperation between Peugeot England and Peugeot Sport in 1380 01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:16,640 France. Well. 1381 01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:19,720 Obviously coming on to that team, we had meet meet Linford 1382 01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:23,440 on the pod in TV 3 and it's and I was completely unaware of this 1383 01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:25,040 as well. It's all just about the bizarre 1384 01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:30,040 politics between the French side of it in the UK and just like I 1385 01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:37,760 could not believe the lack of support conversations just 1386 01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:41,640 doesn't just like. Wanted to share data or 1387 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,840 anything. Yeah, like whoever would be the 1388 01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:45,800 head of Persia would want the best for the brand, wouldn't 1389 01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:46,520 you? But clearly not. 1390 01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:48,680 They actually want what they want for France, and these want 1391 01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,080 what they want for the UK. And they're literally like two 1392 01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:52,600 different teams. It was the league. 1393 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:56,200 I mean, literally the whole development from front to back 1394 01:20:56,280 --> 01:21:01,120 engine, everything that we did was done by by us, you know, 1395 01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:03,440 within the UKMSD and, and Peugeot. 1396 01:21:03,440 --> 01:21:05,360 We didn't get anything from France. 1397 01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:07,040 They wouldn't even share the engines. 1398 01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:10,240 You know, they'd call engines for the car and they wouldn't 1399 01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:12,080 even share those. Yeah. 1400 01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:15,000 But I think that he said they did a back-to-back test and Alex 1401 01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,000 did they. And yes, even then the the in 1402 01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,000 the in the diner room, they didn't even have the same like 1403 01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,000 test them in the same way. No, they wouldn't. 1404 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,240 They wouldn't. They wouldn't be. 1405 01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:26,800 I think they've got like that they have cold air, fresh cold 1406 01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:28,520 air coming from outside for their engine. 1407 01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,120 Didn't bother with yours. They just this, it was this 1408 01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:33,480 whole, the whole thing was very, very bizarre. 1409 01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,200 I mean, you did. It's almost as if you were like 1410 01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:37,640 an independent team, but you weren't. 1411 01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:39,760 You were, you were the manufacturer of Persian team. 1412 01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:41,600 Yeah. I I just don't understand why 1413 01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:43,960 there was no cooperation. And, and and you were, you were 1414 01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:45,960 running out the Wrighton plants at the time when Peugeot was at 1415 01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:47,080 Wrighton. As well, wasn't it you? 1416 01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:52,320 Yeah, initially and then to to MSD and to be fair, as a very 1417 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,360 professional operation, you know, and, and those tiles were 1418 01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:58,560 they were very good. They were just not quite good 1419 01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:01,720 enough to win in the year that they were they were running it. 1420 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:05,800 And I always say, you know, like that, that the 97 Peugeot would 1421 01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:11,440 have won in 96 and the 909098 Persia would have won in 97. 1422 01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:16,360 It was just always a little bit. Coming into 97 as well, I mean 1423 01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,680 the whole story of Peugeot in that period when we talk about 1424 01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,800 is that they were probably the most present brand that didn't 1425 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:27,560 win a race in that period. You very nearly changed that 1426 01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:32,240 script on its head at Froxton in 1997 with a brilliant weather 1427 01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,960 performance that day. What was that race like in the 1428 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:37,520 car? What was it like sort of carving 1429 01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:40,120 your way through the field having got the the decision on 1430 01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:42,040 tyres right? It must have been thrilling, 1431 01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:45,560 even if you didn't sort of quite get there in terms of winning 1432 01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:47,600 and getting that brilliant 2nd place instead. 1433 01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:51,560 Yeah, it's it is a frustration that Persia was the only 1434 01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,720 manufacturer I drove for that I didn't win a race with. 1435 01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,440 The fact that nobody won a race doesn't sort of make it any 1436 01:22:58,440 --> 01:23:00,080 better. It just, I would love to have 1437 01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,040 won a race with every manufacturer I drove with, But 1438 01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:06,520 yeah, I mean, that was the closest. 1439 01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:11,760 And, you know, it was just one of those things where you take a 1440 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:17,040 bit of a punt on it, but once you can feel the car coming to 1441 01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:20,880 you, you've got some some heat and some grip coming to you, 1442 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:24,520 you're just trying to literally make the most of it. 1443 01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:28,240 Every corner, every lap, because every corner or every lap, you 1444 01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:32,640 can push that little bit harder. You know, I just came up a lap 1445 01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:34,160 short. But it was, yeah. 1446 01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:37,960 I mean, races like that are always fun and I've always been 1447 01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:42,200 prepared to roll the dice, you know, pretty earlier than sort 1448 01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:46,240 of most people when there's that option to go to slicks if you or 1449 01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:48,800 intermediates as it wasn't in the day there. 1450 01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:52,360 But yeah, I mean, there's nothing worse than hanging on on 1451 01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,400 a pair of wets on a drying track and getting slower and slower. 1452 01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:57,040 I'd rather be. I'd rather. 1453 01:23:57,040 --> 01:23:59,120 Be doing the hunting than the hunting if you like. 1454 01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:04,040 Yeah, so just gave up a lap too. Sure that that Peugeot was 1455 01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:06,080 probably one of the stronger Peugeots that year anyway, 1456 01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:09,480 because you you had a you had another podium at Donnington. 1457 01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:12,440 You and Patrick both scored well throughout the year. 1458 01:24:12,440 --> 01:24:16,040 So out of the Peugeots, it wasn't, yeah, was probably one 1459 01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:18,800 of the more competitive ones. So it's just a shame they didn't 1460 01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:20,240 get that one step. Yeah, yeah. 1461 01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:22,480 It was a good looking car as well. 1462 01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:25,760 Everybody, everybody loved that livery and and still really 1463 01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:30,320 good, yeah. Brands last year when when that 1464 01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,840 that car was out on track, everyone was out yeah, I love 1465 01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:37,520 love the SO Ultron car yeah love the Peugeot four O 6 beautiful 1466 01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:39,640 car. Well, I was talking to Jake Hill 1467 01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,840 at Brands Hatch a couple weeks ago. 1468 01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:46,400 He's driven, he's just driven one. 1469 01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,800 I mean, he's driven the Panera as well. 1470 01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:53,560 Yeah. And he said, I just love it 1471 01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:55,800 every time I get in one of those Super Touring cars. 1472 01:24:55,800 --> 01:25:00,360 They're so light and on their toes and responsive and 1473 01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:02,880 everything else, he said. Absolutely fantastic. 1474 01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:07,440 And, and he, he always loved that, that Peugeot for delivery 1475 01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:11,920 and sadly you get a mechanical, which was not uncommon in those 1476 01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:15,880 cars when he drove it. But yeah, he loved driving it. 1477 01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:20,680 He said it was fantastic. Talking of driving fun, you, 1478 01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:22,360 you, you. You've already touched on it, 1479 01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:26,000 but you did end up going to Bathurst when the Super Touring 1480 01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,000 cars were the focus of the great race for 97. 1481 01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:32,000 And I, I mean, I know you had you, as you said, you had a 1482 01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:35,560 heavy shunt in the Volvo there, but good to go over and take 1483 01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:38,600 part in an iconic event that such as Bathurst. 1484 01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:42,680 Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, Bathurst is 1485 01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,800 just such an amazing track. It definitely might top three or 1486 01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,560 4 tracks anywhere in the world. It's a fantastic track. 1487 01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:52,480 I love the way the Aussies go racing. 1488 01:25:52,480 --> 01:25:56,240 I love their enthusiasm for it. Yeah. 1489 01:25:56,480 --> 01:26:02,280 And OK, it wasn't a a V8 super car, but actually driving the 1490 01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,440 cars with you around there was fantastic. 1491 01:26:05,440 --> 01:26:07,480 You know, I enjoyed it with the Peugeot. 1492 01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:09,920 I enjoyed it more with the Volvo. 1493 01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:14,000 Didn't get a result in the race, but you know, absolutely loved 1494 01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:19,360 it and been back stints and did 24 hour GT race there and it's 1495 01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:21,320 it's just a fantastic place. Yeah. 1496 01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:25,000 The talking of the Volvo 98, you nearly only look back in the 1497 01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:26,600 Swedish cars, didn't you? For 99? 1498 01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:30,000 How close were you for that? Yeah, I think it was very close 1499 01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:34,840 actually. You know, it, it, I think what I 1500 01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,760 mean, I've said it on record before, but I think, I mean, if 1501 01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,000 you look back, I was actually the the closest teammate to 1502 01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,600 Rickard in terms of results and performance that that anyone 1503 01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,240 ever had that they ever had. You know, they they subsequently 1504 01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:53,480 obviously had they've had Yan Lamas, then they had Kelvin Burt 1505 01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:59,040 and yeah, I mean, I, I, it was, it was close. 1506 01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:01,480 I mean, it was definitely close. And in fact, when I jumped in 1507 01:27:01,480 --> 01:27:04,360 the escorted to do Bathurst, I was very close to Rickard 1508 01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:09,280 straight away on times. So I think it was it was close. 1509 01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:10,440 Here comes a cup of tea. Lovely. 1510 01:27:10,480 --> 01:27:12,440 Thank you very much for delivery. 1511 01:27:14,480 --> 01:27:16,120 I told you. The refreshments. 1512 01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:22,680 It's the half time girl. Yeah, I think, I think it was 1513 01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:24,280 close. We got to the stage of 1514 01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:29,280 negotiating and I probably asked for too much money. 1515 01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:35,520 Tom was being mean and he could get Vincent Rademacher for a 1516 01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:38,520 fraction of what I asked for. So that's what he did. 1517 01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,000 But you know, I think it's a shame. 1518 01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,320 I would have really loved to have gone back and done another 1519 01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,120 year with Volvo. I think we'd have actually done 1520 01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,400 very well. It would have would have been 1521 01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:52,080 good for me and I think I'd have, you know, been right there 1522 01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:54,960 with Rickard and we do have a very good year, but wasn't to 1523 01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:56,240 be. But that's another one of the 1524 01:27:56,240 --> 01:27:58,920 forks in the road that you have as a driver. 1525 01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,520 Some win, some you win, some you don't. 1526 01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:08,440 Into 19 and then you would then go into a team manager role with 1527 01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:12,960 Team Dynamics for the end of the Super Touring period and you 1528 01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:14,560 did. As you said, some you win, some 1529 01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:18,720 you lose and one you did win as team manager was that famous 1530 01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:22,000 race at Donnington Park in the first meeting of 1999. 1531 01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,960 Must have felt pretty special to be a part of that, especially on 1532 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:31,720 your first weekend in the job. Yeah, I mean, I, I wasn't, my 1533 01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:35,240 role was not so much as team manager in terms of logistics 1534 01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:38,720 and things like that. You know, I, my role was 1535 01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,880 basically to act as an intermediary between Matt and 1536 01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:47,600 his engineer and the team. Because as a driver, you know, 1537 01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:51,240 I, I, I could see and talk to Matt about what he wanted and 1538 01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:55,240 what he needed in terms of how he wanted to use his tires and 1539 01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:58,160 what was available and what he was looking for in the car. 1540 01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:02,360 And I could, I could interpret that and perhaps relay that 1541 01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:05,640 between him and the engineer a little bit better than he could 1542 01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:08,080 do. And I could see opportunities, 1543 01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:11,080 but he might take advantage of that. 1544 01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:13,440 The engineer wouldn't necessarily see, because I could 1545 01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:16,320 think with my drivers hat on. And I actually think it's a 1546 01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:20,560 really, it's a really good, valuable role that a lot of 1547 01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:22,880 teams don't, don't actually take up on. 1548 01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:26,600 You know, they see the engineer and the driver and that's it. 1549 01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:29,880 And in some spaces, that works extremely well. 1550 01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,240 But the engineer isn't a driver, so he doesn't, he doesn't think 1551 01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:36,960 about the things that a driver can do. 1552 01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:40,880 And the actual driver is busy doing his driving and doesn't 1553 01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:44,160 always have the scope to see the outside. 1554 01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,560 And he certainly doesn't see what other cars and other people 1555 01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,320 are doing and when they're doing it, why they're doing it. 1556 01:29:49,440 --> 01:29:53,560 And the engineer is nowadays his head down in a computer and he 1557 01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:56,760 doesn't see that either. So there's a real place for 1558 01:29:56,760 --> 01:30:02,040 somebody with that experience and that look to just see 1559 01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:03,600 things. And I mean, even, I mean, I 1560 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:07,120 remember in that year jumping on the radio to shout at the mat 1561 01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:09,080 when there was oil down at Brands Hatch. 1562 01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:12,920 No one else would have known because they're not looking at 1563 01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:16,720 it as the driver. So you, you know, there's a 1564 01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:18,240 role. But that was my role with Matt 1565 01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:22,480 that that year. And yeah, I mean, obviously, you 1566 01:30:22,480 --> 01:30:27,880 know, but I didn't play any significant role in that result 1567 01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:31,000 whatsoever. But it was a fantastic weekend 1568 01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,480 and great fun. Yeah, I mean, it was really 1569 01:30:35,480 --> 01:30:37,320 special. It was, it was almost like you 1570 01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,080 were. It certainly felt from from the 1571 01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:43,600 viewing side of it that you were almost as like another driver 1572 01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,440 coach almost then, because I remember, I think it was at 1573 01:30:46,440 --> 01:30:48,520 Brands Hatch as well where you were on the radio. 1574 01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:53,320 And basically I think Nissan would dictate in where you guys 1575 01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,000 could finish because you weren't to finish in front of the works 1576 01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:58,520 cars. And it was all lights on, lights 1577 01:30:58,520 --> 01:30:59,920 off stuff. And I think Matt was getting a 1578 01:30:59,920 --> 01:31:03,880 bit hot headed and you were sort of calming him down, Rob Smedley 1579 01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:05,960 style, almost with Massa sort of thing, you know? 1580 01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:09,600 But not calling him Felipe baby. But yeah. 1581 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:14,000 Matt's no. Matt's no baby, that's for sure. 1582 01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,600 I'm not sure if he was a black belt in judo then he might have 1583 01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:22,160 been or might not have been, but I certainly wouldn't argue with. 1584 01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:24,760 Him. But yeah, as you say, a very 1585 01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:26,320 interesting role. Yeah. 1586 01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:29,320 When you. And you did that once, once you 1587 01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:31,680 you'd finished that, you were back behind the wheel for two 1588 01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,440 more seasons. No super tours anymore, but you 1589 01:31:34,440 --> 01:31:37,880 were. It was first of all in a A147, 1590 01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:42,240 which looked like a real tricky thing to drive. 1591 01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:45,600 And then you were back with Victoria Lee in 2002 in the 1592 01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:48,360 Persia. Good to be back in with Vic. 1593 01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:50,480 Yeah, I mean, I did the Alfa Romeo thing. 1594 01:31:50,480 --> 01:31:53,120 I was, I was actually wasn't there as a driver at all. 1595 01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:57,800 The drivers were Tom Ferrier and Dave Pink and I was there doing 1596 01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:01,160 the role that I'd done with Matt as the sort of intermediary, if 1597 01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:01,720 you like. Right. 1598 01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:03,760 Yeah. But the team had so many 1599 01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:07,280 problems and issues with. It was a new team JS John 1600 01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:11,240 Shields Racing and loads of problems with reliability and 1601 01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:15,400 performance and things and and you know, I think and it was at 1602 01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:18,760 Donington and Dave Pinkley said, well, I'm not going to drive it 1603 01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:23,480 anymore or something. And so I had to dust off the 1604 01:32:23,480 --> 01:32:27,320 overalls and jump in. But it wasn't it was there. 1605 01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,600 I was never there as a driver, but I managed to get a podium 1606 01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:34,640 with the car and and I remember in that race, I think I was 1607 01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:39,160 racing against Steve, Steve Sober who was in the Berger and 1608 01:32:39,480 --> 01:32:42,960 I beat Steve in that race in the Alpha, which probably shouldn't 1609 01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:45,840 have happened. Of course, once again Victoria 1610 01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:48,640 came and said well I want you to drive for me next year. 1611 01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:53,360 So I ended up doing my last year in 2002 with Victoria in the 1612 01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,640 Peugeot. Yeah, 10 years after the title. 1613 01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:57,960 Almost like, yeah, full circle really isn't. 1614 01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:00,720 It, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I haven't really thought about 1615 01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:03,960 that, but yeah, it was, I mean, you know, obviously it was 1616 01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:06,720 again, the car wasn't very competitive. 1617 01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:10,120 It was too big physically for the current regulations. 1618 01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:13,640 Big lump that thing, wasn't it? So yeah, it wasn't, it was a 1619 01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,520 shame, but you know, it was nice to be back with Victoria and 1620 01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:22,080 Steve and staff and, you know, at that stage I, I'd lost the 1621 01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:24,720 love of driving front wheel drive shopping cars. 1622 01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:30,240 And so it was, it was my swansong year. 1623 01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:32,720 But yeah, nothing. Nothing that I really remember 1624 01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:37,240 about that, apart from being pushed off at Druids by Tom 1625 01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:40,760 Chilton, yeah. In his first race without even a 1626 01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,680 driving license at the time if I remember. 1627 01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:45,240 Slightly outrageous, and it showed. 1628 01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:48,480 Punching you off. Yeah, cost me some bonus money 1629 01:33:48,480 --> 01:33:50,400 as well. I remember that from the podium. 1630 01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:52,920 Yeah, I've never let him forget it either. 1631 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:56,360 I've never let him forget it. Good. 1632 01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:00,480 You mentioned there obviously sort of falling out of love with 1633 01:34:00,480 --> 01:34:03,760 driving those front wheel drive cars and then sort of shopping 1634 01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:05,240 trolleys, wasn't it? Shopping trolleys. 1635 01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:06,400 Yeah, Yeah. You definitely call them 1636 01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:10,120 shopping trolleys. Gently described them, you did. 1637 01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:12,360 You did. Then go into the Porsche Carrera 1638 01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:17,240 Cup for a few years after that with great success within the 1639 01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:21,480 title in 2008 and 2010. Were they fun cars to drive? 1640 01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,000 And I'm guessing probably a bit more fun in a Porsche Carrera 1641 01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:27,320 Cup rear wheel drive than a 406 Sean and Johnny. 1642 01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:31,160 OK, yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, I just clicked 1643 01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:32,800 with the Porsches as soon as I drove them. 1644 01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:37,000 I'd actually done a Super Cup race back in 94. 1645 01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:44,080 Porsche ran the VIP super guest car and I'd done the Super Cup 1646 01:34:44,080 --> 01:34:47,600 race at Silverstone at the Grand Prix and finished second 1647 01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:51,920 actually to Kelvin Burke. So I'd already, I'd already had 1648 01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:56,760 a run in the car and straight away loved it and enjoyed it. 1649 01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:06,240 And I'd also done 1/2 year in, I think it was 89 in full Super 1650 01:35:06,240 --> 01:35:09,000 Cup. So I'd had some experience of 1651 01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:13,120 the cars. But when I jumped back in one in 1652 01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:19,680 2003 for the guest race, I think it was yeah, I loved it straight 1653 01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:21,680 away and was immediately quick in it. 1654 01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:25,160 And the cars are fun, you know, they're powerful, rear wheel 1655 01:35:25,160 --> 01:35:30,080 drive, no ABS, no traction control, proper sports car feel 1656 01:35:30,080 --> 01:35:32,080 to them. And it just all clicked back 1657 01:35:32,080 --> 01:35:34,840 into place for me. And plenty of power as well. 1658 01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:37,960 Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it was my my cup of 1659 01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:40,480 tea. Yeah, as he says, as he. 1660 01:35:40,880 --> 01:35:49,320 As he's sloping away there, Tim, finally moving on to your 1661 01:35:49,320 --> 01:35:51,720 current role. Obviously been a commensator for 1662 01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:54,120 Ice TV. Do you still get the same 1663 01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:55,480 enjoyment out of it now? Obviously I know it's a 1664 01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:58,160 different role you were racing before, but you, like you said 1665 01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:01,080 earlier, you've been in the panic for such a long time now. 1666 01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:02,920 You've seen people come, you've seen people go. 1667 01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:06,960 I see that you still get enjoyment out of it or I get 1668 01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:10,760 that impression listening to you. 1669 01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:12,160 Do you, do you still get the buzz out of it? 1670 01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:15,080 Do you still enjoy being there, being around everyone doing the 1671 01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:16,680 commentary? I'm getting excited. 1672 01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,160 Yeah, 100%. You know, I mean, you know, I've 1673 01:36:20,440 --> 01:36:24,160 done a few pieces already about previewing this year's season 1674 01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:27,880 and every year there was something to be excited about. 1675 01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:33,760 You know, there really is, you know, this year there's some new 1676 01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:36,360 well, obviously people like Rob half has come back into the 1677 01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:39,160 championship and fascinated to see how he gets on. 1678 01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:44,160 You know, he's in a good team with Josh Cookie, the team and 1679 01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:46,240 Andrew Watson. So he's got some great 1680 01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:48,520 teammates. So Speedworks could be in for a 1681 01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:52,280 Goodyear accelerate with with Tom Ingram. 1682 01:36:52,360 --> 01:36:54,360 You know, they they've done a fantastic job. 1683 01:36:54,360 --> 01:36:58,680 Accelerate, keep, see if they can keep up the challenging, the 1684 01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:02,880 progress W Surrey Racing of of done some really good 1685 01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:06,440 development work on that BMW. It's got a new front end on it, 1686 01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:10,640 it's got some new aeros, that new intake, revised engine. 1687 01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:15,960 The drivers are absolutely eulogizing about how good the 1688 01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:19,840 car feels and that's Jake and Colin Turkinson. 1689 01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:23,280 Both say this feels like a a really good car. 1690 01:37:23,480 --> 01:37:27,960 They haven't got the same tire problem that they've had 1691 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:29,760 previous years with the front end. 1692 01:37:30,040 --> 01:37:32,560 So, you know, I'm expecting them to be really competitive. 1693 01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,040 And of course, you know, we know that Alliance racing with the 1694 01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:38,560 Napa Fords just do a brilliant, brilliant job. 1695 01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:42,800 So there's lots of there's lots of car developments that could 1696 01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:46,600 change the the way things go. There's some interesting new 1697 01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:50,640 drivers and driver team relationships to to follow. 1698 01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:54,120 There's the new rules with increased hybrid, which look 1699 01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:57,280 like they're going to actually make some difference this year 1700 01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:00,880 as opposed to in previous years and the new qualifying schedule. 1701 01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:03,560 So we've come in and I've got lots to be excited about. 1702 01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:07,520 I'm fascinated to see how all that pans out and what it means 1703 01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:09,800 for the racing. So you know, I'm genuinely 1704 01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:11,720 excited. I'm genuinely looking forward to 1705 01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:16,360 the first race and and that isn't that isn't a pretence. 1706 01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:19,400 I absolutely love it and and I'll be fascinated to see how it 1707 01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:24,760 plays out. I'd like to thank Tim for 1708 01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:27,040 spending some of his valuable time with us this evening on 1709 01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:29,760 Stories from Super Touring. Tim, thank you so much. 1710 01:38:30,440 --> 01:38:31,880 You're more than welcome. Enjoyed. 1711 01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,680 It meanwhile, we'll be back next week where we'll be joined by 1712 01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:39,680 former BTCC commentator Barry Nutley to look back at the very 1713 01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,800 entertaining wet meeting at Fruxton in 1997. 1714 01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:46,920 Tim, we mentioned it briefly in the In the Trap just then. 1715 01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:50,600 That was a very nearly win for you and Peugeot. 1716 01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:54,440 Good memories of that weekend. Yeah, definitely another one of 1717 01:38:54,480 --> 01:38:57,840 like, like so near yet so far moments in motorsport. 1718 01:38:57,840 --> 01:38:59,520 Really. We can all do a book on Mozart 1719 01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:01,120 bet as well. Definitely. 1720 01:39:02,480 --> 01:39:04,360 So until then, goodbye.