Stories from Super Touring. Hello everyone, and welcome to
this week's episode of Stories from Super Touring.
Now, as ever, we've got another great guest with us today, and
today's guest is one of the biggest names in Touring car
history. He's raced a variety of
different touring cars over the years, becoming BTCC champion in
1992 in the process. He's still involved in the
championship today and will be known by many of you as the
current voice of touring cars. It's none other than Tim Harvey.
Tim, thanks so much for joining us on Stories from Super Touring
Today. How are you doing?
I'm very good, although I'm I'm not so sure I'm one of the
biggest names. I think Fabrizio Giovannadi is a
much bigger, longer name than Tim Harvey.
Yeah. There's lots, lots more letters
there. Perhaps you were just alluding
to my weight. Certainly in that respect, I'm
definitely one of the biggest names in Turing cars.
Yeah. Weighing in at a stealthy 90 to
100 kilos. I think it just made all my
achievements all the more remarkable, really.
Absolutely. It was the Renault lunches I
think. Actually, on that note, I was, I
had it in my contract with TWR in 95 that I had to weigh the 80
kilos, which was the minimum driveway or maximum driveway.
Sorry. Well, I've never weighed 80
kilos in all my, in all my life. And I sort of went on a, a, a
strict diet and all the rest of it for at least, oh, ten days
before the before the meeting. But unfortunately they decided
to have the driver weigh in at the media day a week before the
first race. So I fail.
I was 83 kilos and I said to Tom Walker, so well, what do you
want me to do? Do you want me to not turn up at
the weekend then? I was thinking that.
I was thinking what what was what was the plan?
BI bet there wasn't one. Anyway, I I did manage to make
the 80 kilos at the first race, but it was the only time that
year I ever did it. I can.
Tell you Tim, your association with BTCC and touring car racing
in general is coming up to nearly 4 decades now.
How does that make you feel? Yes.
As an old. Yeah, I I sat and worked it out
because I was first in the touring car paddock.
Not Super Touring days, I know, but I was first in the touring
car paddock in 1987. So and I've been in the paddock
either as a driver or working with the team or commentator
every year since. So I mean, I haven't had a year
not doing something in touring car.
So I think this is my 37th year if my maths is correct.
You know, that's a, that's a hell of a long time in one
paddock. I mean, there are characters and
people who have been around throughout that period, but not
many, I can tell you. You've seen a lot of people come
and go at that point then, haven't you?
When you think about it, all the teams that are open gone
drivers, team managers and. Well, if you think how transient
the sport is for all of those things, yeah.
I mean, I seen an awful lot of it and a lot of changes with
obviously the cars and everything else.
But, you know, the racing still remains fantastic today and the
best drivers today would hold their end up in any era,
including Super Touring. So, you know, in that sense
things are still very much the same.
But I mean, I, you know, without newness, without change, it
wouldn't be interesting. So, you know, I'm glad there is
some change, but yeah, it does fairly sort of root me in the,
the history books of, of, of seeing change throughout the
championship. So as you say, you spent, you
know, 37 years in the the BTCC, but let's take it right back to
the start. And how did you get into motor
racing originally? Both my parents, this is in the
60s, I was born in 61, They used to go off almost every weekend
to a motoring event, and by that I mean a hill climb, a Sprint,
an auto cross, some kind of motor racing or motoring
activity and they'd meet up with friends and they'd compete.
I'd charge around the place with my brother causing mayhem
everywhere. But you know, I grew up going to
motoring events with my parents competing just as amateurs as a
complete sport. You know, that was just our
hobby. If you like the family hobby,
picnic in the back of a Mini Cooper S or a Lotus Cortina and
off we'd go for the weekend. So, you know, for me I always
saw and I still do see it as a sport and I'm glad, really
privileged and glad I had that, that basis of getting into motor
sport. I, I was always and still am
passionate about motorbikes. So I started off on motorbikes,
schoolboy motocross, things like that before getting into
karting, primarily with my brother because he wasn't into
bikes and he was into cars and karts.
So we could do that together and then into cars.
But throughout that whole period, it was just for me, it
was a hobby and a sport. The fact that I was sort of
quite driven and competitive and had a modicum of talent was what
sort of got me the opportunities that I then made the most of.
But yeah, that's how it goes. It does go back to karting,
certainly. It was your performances in the
Formula Ford that meant Austin Rd. but got in touch with you.
So how did that sort of come about?
Because you spent two seasons racing EMG metros before
deciding to go for full season of Formula Four in 1996.
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I mean, I live near
Brands Hatch in Kent. And so when I I knew Ian
Blackman who ran a Regal Racing Services, which was sort of Semi
Van Works, Van Diemen team and he'd sort of seen me in Carter
had some mutual acquaintances and he ran the Formula Four team
and said, oh Tim, you know, you're doing quite well in
karting locally, why don't you come out and go and formula
forward at brands. So I went and had a little test
that brands in one of his former Fords and absolutely loved it
straight away. Immediately sold all of our
karting equipment and bought a through through Ian.
I bought a 2 year old rolling chassis.
It was actually expert in Brazil, our van Diem RF-81 and
he loaned me an engine and gave me second hand tyres and I just
did the local Champion of Brands races.
That was literally the start of it.
Again, doing it as a hobby with a bit help from Ian, a bit of
help from well, a lot of help from my dad and my brother sort
of helping mechanic it. But you know, we did it on a
shoestring just to do some local Brands Hatch Champion of Brands
races. But, and that was in 83 the
first year I did cars and come the festival in 83, Ian said,
well, why don't you enter it? And I saw I sort of took a back
step and thought, well, you know, I've only done a handful
of Champion of Brands races. You know, this is the biggest
event in Formula Forward in the world.
I think that year there were 294 starters, literally 294
starters. And the heats, the heat started
on Thursday and there was just straight knockout, you know, 14
went through and 14 went out. Anyway, cut Long story short, I
got through to the final and finished 7th in the final in a 2
year old car. And it just got me, got me some
attention at the right time because Austin Rover and the
Daily Express were jointly looking for an under 23 year old
scholarship driver to race in the MG Metro Challenge.
So I got nominated by a couple of journalists after this
performance and Julie then won the scholarship and went MG
Metro Racing. Fast forward to the opening race
that you had in 1986. That was a race that could have
well defined your career, wasn't it?
As you unfortunately involved in quite a nasty accident at
Silverstone. Sort of what happened to that?
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I did two seasons with
Metros because it was my first introduction, if you like to,
you know, a factory supportive effort.
I commercially, I realized the importance of sticking with it
Austin Rover and I brought in some other sponsors.
Well, because I was wrecking metros at a rate of 1 every two
races, so had to bring some extra funds in.
And so I, I was sort of getting quite commercially savvy, but,
and I, I'd also got involved with this Dell, which used to be
British Leylands IT systems, but have bought themselves out
become this Dell. But whilst I was racing MG
metros, I wanted to do Formula Four.
That's where I come from. You know, in my mind I was the
next, you know, current Max Verstappen wasn't I, I thought I
was the best that these needs. I mean, I actually wasn't.
And I'm, and so actually what happened in 86 turned out to do
me a favour. But yeah, I managed to get,
after two years of metros, I managed to get Estelle to agree
a full year sponsorship to do Formula 4 and signed up with the
Works Question which was back with Ian Blackman.
Obviously they'd had success with the quest designed by Mike
Thompson in 85 with Johnny Herbert winning the festival.
So all things came together very nicely.
I had that Rascal of a team mate, Gary Isles and we were
sort of, we were both, we were just in the zone.
We were dominating testing in the run up to the first meeting
and the first meeting was at Silverstone and I had, you know,
a horrendous accident and shack to both my ankles.
And so Tim Harvey is, you know, next Formula One world champion.
Never happened. But he's bloody hurt.
Yeah, sure. How long?
How long did that keep you out of action for?
Basically seven months. I mean, I won't bore you with
all the details, but basically good old Silverstone and Sid got
me out of the car, bless him. And I was whisked off to
Northampton General where, you know, you expect that you're
going to get the best treatment because, you know, Silverstone's
nearby and the rest of it. And you know, I arrived on a
Sunday late afternoon and there's, you know, the duty
doctors and whoever on on board and they X-rayed me and found
that both my ankles were shattered.
Left one was particularly bad. And basically the orthopaedic
Dr. that was there said, well, I can't fix that, We're going to
have to amputate your left foot. Whereupon my, my then wife, the
first Mrs. Harvey, said no, stop right now.
And she called my brother who was a doctor at the London
Hospital. I say that because London
Hospital is where Professor Sid Watkins came from and where Dr.
Jonathan Palmer trained and that was just coincidence.
My brother. But my brother was a doctor
there. In fact, well, he was running
the intensive care unit, which currently had at the time had
Frank Williams in it. So he was there looking after
Frank Williams and he gets gets the call to say I've had this
accident. And he said right stop.
He spoke to the hospital, so don't do anything, give him some
painkillers. And he organized the private
ambulance to get me down to the London hospital where he got a
fantastic orthopaedic surgeon to basically save my left foot and,
you know, fix up both, both ankles, which were both
shattered and saved my foot. So, well then, yeah, I had a
sort of basically a seven month recovery because obviously I
couldn't walk off to do anything for a long time.
Ouch. Anyway, I became an expert.
I became an expert in snooker because I watched the every
frame of the 1986 World Finals at the Crucible, and I'm an
expert snooker player. By watching now.
Was that the famous one or the I couldn't, I couldn't, couldn't
remember. I couldn't put a ball to save my
life now. But I know what they should do.
For this series of Stories from Super Touring, we are delighted
to be teaming up with Brands Hatch to give away 2 tickets to
Super Touring Power 2, which is being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 2024.
The award nominated event was a smash hit last year when it's
debut edition transported fans back to the 90s and this year's
event will once again celebrate one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. To enter the competition, just
answer the following question. Who was the first ever guest to
star on Stories from Super Touring?
Send your answers to pod at 1990s btcc.com and we'll
announce the winner on a later episode.
This series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. So in 1987 then Tim, you saw you
make your debut in BTCC, which was actually the first year it
was known as the BTCC. I believe you raced the mighty
Rover SD1. Yeah.
Well, that that was again the sort of alliance because I mean
with Austin still. The Austin Rover, yeah, can
we'll come from that. Yeah, because I couldn't.
There's no way I was going to go back into single seaters because
I just didn't have the the the manipulation in my ankles to to
drive a car sort of laying down if you like.
But because I still have Estelle who wanted to help.
They are. They were obviously linked to
Austin Rover. The Rover had basically just
been pretty much retired. It had been retired from the
TCC. So the TWR Rover team have been
disbanded, but it made sense to to go into British touring cars
from an Estelle point of view and also because it meant that I
could drive using my legs a little bit more than my my
ankles. So a plan was formed to to go
into the British Touring Car Championship.
We, we bought the ex Andy Rouse, Pete Hall 1984 championship
winning car, which Pete Hall had run after Andy Rouse had
finished with it and gave it to John McGuire to prepare the car.
And I remember at the first race, the commentator said, oh,
here's Tim Harvey, the youngest. Driver on the grid.
I was going to say actually you were the young gun in the series
at the time. Yeah.
You know, the field was a generally was an older
generation at that time. Did that, did you, did that mark
you out of something different in the paddock?
Did you, did you get ever get any sort of funny reactions
because you were such a youngster against the old boys
then? I, I don't think so
particularly. I think that, you know, I had a
fair degree of sympathy from the paddock because I'd gone racing
again after my accident. So there was a certain amount
of, you know, Bon and me, if you like, and, and the
establishment, if you like were, it was still the sort of drivers
that weren't there professionally.
So they were there enjoying their racing rather than seeing
me as a huge threat commercially or anything like that.
You know, that would all come later.
But at the time I, I had a very good reception and, you know,
I'd actually say I'm, I'm still friends with a lot of people
that were there back in that, in that period.
So in in your first season in the championship, Tim, you
actually would win Class A, but the the class system the
championship used at the time meant the Class A driver very
rarely ended up winning the title.
How sad. Yeah.
Was that weird to deal with, knowing that sort of you beat
everyone in your own class, but then that didn't translate,
winning a title at the end of the day, was that quite a weird
experience? It honestly, it didn't really
bother me at the time, you know, I mean, I was, I was happy
enough to beat the people in the class, you know, which of course
included Andy, you know, and, and win some races in the
British Touring Car Championship.
So I was happy enough, you know, having my nose rubbed in it in
later years, you know, particularly by John Cleland,
who obviously won one of his championships by winning the
class, you know, but can call himself a two time champion.
Yeah, that did sort of niggle a little bit.
But that's just one of many things that me about John
Cleland. But anyway.
There's another episode on that. But no, so it didn't really
bother me at the time. You know, I was glad to be
racing again. I was glad to have commercial
partners to be, you know, having some success, you know, a
relatively high level in terms of championship awareness.
Yeah. And the car was fantastic.
I've got to say that Rover was absolutely fantastic.
Oh, I love, I love the big Rovers, love the big Rovers.
It's still good when you see the the odd ones thought about it
like the Silverstone Classic and stuff, isn't it?
When you just see it and you just beast, yeah, it's big way
and you're looking at it. It's a big car, like it's a big
car, but it's just history, isn't it?
That's what I love about the Classic.
It's just got all these cars. I mean, back to your Formula
Ford comments as well, team. And obviously, have you still
got an old Formula Ford? I haven't.
I did. I did buy because you.
Did have one, didn't you? Because you, you used the
Silverstone Classic 2-3 years ago, was it?
Yeah. That's right.
I bought AI, bought a, an identical card, not my actual
card, but I bought an RF-81 and went and did the classic Formula
Ford series with, with Jonathan Lewis running the car.
You know, Rick Morris and various people were still doing
it and I was trying to recreate or remind myself of that lovely
feeling that you have or you used to have driving a Formula
Four because the cars moved around all the time.
You look back at pictures of Formula Four cars and they're
sideways going into paddock, you know, like they're driving in
the wet. But the cars really moved around
a lot. And it was real fingertip
control stuff. And I, and I loved it.
It was absolutely fantastic. And I was just trying to
experience that again, you know, and have some fun.
Well, I certainly had some fun and, you know, it was a great
fun year. The only thing is, although the
cars are, I mean the cars are identical to the way they were,
the tyres are much better than they were back in the day.
So the cars felt more like a Formula Ford 2000, if you like
on slicks than it did a Formula Ford moving about.
And although it was still fun, you're sort of driving it not in
the same way that you used to drive a formula for, which was
what I was sort of looking to do.
So I had a great fun year. I got made an offer for the car
at the end of the year that paid for all the running costs of the
car and and all the rest of it. And I thought, well, OK, I'm
going to quit while I'm ahead and, and I sold the car.
So I didn't keep it, but I had a great fun doing it so.
In 1988, that was the start of the three seasons racing the
mighty Sierra RS500, firstly with Terry Drury and then two
years in the Labatt's team. Again, an iconic car.
It was a mighty car, wasn't it? And was it as exciting to drive
as it looked? Because you know, I'm a fan of
the Cozi and I've mentioned it to you a few times before,
especially looking around the Birmingham Super Pre races and
stuff like that. But how was that for you, I
mean. Oh, I mean they were fantastic,
you know, coming out the Rover, you know, getting in something
that we 500 plus horsepower after 350 and.
Lighter. It was and lighter it was.
I mean they were, they were fantastic.
You know, the first year I did with, with Terry Drury was a
real sort of shoestring operation.
Really we didn't. It was a real shoestring
operation. But you know, the next two years
with the Lebats cars in 89 and 90 were absolutely fantastic.
And of course it was the end of the Group A era.
And if you're like the start of real interest in touring cars,
because the Cosworth was such an iconic car even in its day, you
know, I mean, we used to have Rd. cars and we'd get stopped by
people, you know, just to talk about the car, you know, I mean,
there was such a such a thing. It created a lot of interest in
the racing as well. So that was then of course that
did go into the two litre formula, but people already had
the interest. But the cars were spectacular.
I mean they, you know, I've told, we've all told the story
before, but I mean they'd do 176 mile an hour at Silverstone and
overtake a Formula 3000 car down the Hangar Straight, you know.
And if you stood on the pit wall at Silverstone or anywhere Orton
Park, somewhere where the car sort of come towards you at a
rate or not, you would step back.
You know, people go wow, you know, they really were quite
spectacular things. And I know I've said in previous
episodes before, I think it was the last series where I had the
the go in, I think Hodget's old one, that the red one ran
Snetters and ran the old circuit.
Yeah. I mean, just what a thrill, you
know what a thrill. You just come back with a smile
on your face and it's just almost like one.
There are no way to describe it. It's just one hand on the wheel,
one hand on the gears, because there was there was never enough
gears. He just wanted more gears.
And honestly, it was so even now like such a few so many years
on, but I'll just it's just one of those moments where I just
crossed it off the list, which was probably never on the list
because I never really thought I'd ever get the opportunity to
drive one. So when I literally because it
was never pre planned, it was just I was just there testing a
different car and I got asked to drive in.
I certainly didn't need to be asked twice.
But yeah, what a thrill. What an absolute thrill.
So I can only imagine what those cars were like for, you know,
Sprint races, load of other. Yeah, our environments around
you. You've also got the Armco
barriers around the streets of Birmingham and you know, God,
God, that must be one of the most difficult races, actually
one of those around Birmingham. Super brings bumpy.
You haven't got enough track, really, you know, You and Rouse,
touching the barriers as you're coming out of the hairpins and
through the corners and the cars bouncing all over the place,
weren't they? Yeah, I mean they were bouncing
all over the place while the sort of boost was coming in and
you're trying to put the bar down whilst the tires are going
off. So yeah, I mean they they wanted
to step out every opportunity and and hit the arm code.
But yeah, I. Just wanted to kill you all the
time didn't he just wanted to kill you all the time.
When you look at the footage, the in car footage, they just
looked like animals. But honestly bring it just which
makes me smoke. I want to look at the footage
because it just must like get back to the part of Firmo
thinking. Thank God for that.
Yeah, but you didn't in the day. You just thought that was what
it was. You know, that was, that was the
normal thing. And that was the that was, if
you like the cutting edge of touring cars.
So you, you know, you, you didn't think it was, I mean
didn't think of no racing driver thinks about the danger when
they're doing it, but you know it, it was just part of the fun.
Do you, do you look back on that now and think, Jesus, they were
a handle? Like, obviously, you know, you
don't know how things are going to evolve, do you, at that time,
Because that is the current latest thing of New York
driving. So do you look back at it now
and think how the bloody did that, why they weren't mental?
Was that dangerous? Yeah, no, I, I, I, I.
And you, You've lived to tell the tale, you know?
Yeah, I don't think they were dangerous.
I mean I you. Know well 176 mile an hour pass
an F3000 cars. You know, you're not exactly
saying a carbon monocoque, are you?
No. That thing was going to explode
when you when you were going to eat the barrier.
Let's be honest. Yeah, I guess so.
But you know, we all managed to survive.
OK, so, but you know, The thing is, though, in at that time, you
know, European touring cars was huge.
You know, we had the works for team with the Texaco cars, you
know, Cos he's ran in Australia. They ran all over the world.
You know, it was a it was a big thing in in the day.
So, you know, and, and the fact that you'd have your sofas and
rouses and people to race against, you know, it was, it
was fantastic really. Talking of boxes being ticked
and iconic moments, you're also racing at Le Mans a few years
during this period. I mean, yeah.
And this is especially before they put the chicanes in down
the old Mulsanne Strait. So is that another box ticked
for you? You know, raced at Le Mans?
Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean, you know, I know this is a super touring, touring car
based interview, but you know, and and everybody knows me for
touring cars. But reality is, I mean, I'd
actually done two years in the British sports car championship
in 88 and 89 and won that championship twice.
And that got me the opportunity to do some races with Spice and
the factory team and the full year in the in the world sports
car Championship doing driver AC1 Spice, which was Formula One
engine ground effect 750 to 800K car, which was absolutely
ballistic. And if I'm honest, I enjoy
driving those cars even more than the RS5 hundreds.
They were proper prototype pucker things that were sort of
three seconds off a Formula One car of its day and, you know,
racing at Spa Fuji Suzuka. And Le Mans without the chicanes
as well. Yeah, Le Mans without the
chicane. I mean, I look at footies now
and I keep, you know, you look at anything.
Oh, that's scary. Like absolutely flat out for
such a long time. Yeah, I mean it, it, it was a
minute flat out. You were flat out for a minute.
But the Le Mans Strait is goes up, as you know, towards the
end. So your eyes are always drawn
towards the horizon so you don't feel like you're and the gears
are long. So you, you know, you accelerate
relatively gently, but you're still doing 220 odd mile an
hour. But you're looking at the
horizon and you don't, you don't really appreciate the speed
until something goes wrong in the sense of there's a bit of
debris on the track and you need to swerve round it.
Well, you can't swerve or steer a car, a projectile travelling
at that speed. You can only guide it to the
left and guide it to the right. So you can't go round something.
So, and as soon as you go past that you, you know, I mean,
you're, you're there in, you're on it in a split second and past
it. And that's when you realise the
speed. But on the other hand, you know,
actually apart from the risk of tyre failures, it was safer.
And that's why they put the chicanes in, because they didn't
want cars constantly running at 220 mile an hour.
But it was actually safer because, you know, slower cars
kept to one side, faster cars went past.
You had one braking zone at the end of the straight, whereas now
you've got cars Criss crossing the road three times to take a
line through the chicanes. You've got, you know, the
problem of seeing cars at night when you're braking, bringing
gravel onto the track when they go through the gravel traps at
the chicanes. And in actual fact, it's so it's
there's more risk if you like in sense of unexpected consequences
of having the chicanes in there. But it has ruled out the the
additional risk of blow outs. But they're all that's happened
now is the cars are shorter gear, so they accelerate
quicker. So they still get up to the same
terminal velocity. They still get up to 200, two,
120 miles an hour. And they do it five times on the
lap, but they don't sit there for, you know, 3060 seconds at
doing it. That's the difference.
Yeah, massive speed. So Tim, back to the touring
cars, the BTCC moved to the two litre engines for 1991 with you
moving into the BMW M3 which was run by Vickley.
Now you know, all of the good old cars 8 is we've already
spoken to you about, but how was the transition from the BMW non
turbo, obviously going from a Cozi that's got, you know, 500
plus horsepower, no grip, you know, trying to kill you every 5
minutes. But then you've got probably a
BMW. There's a lot more time, a lot
more controlled, but probably felt like you're going a lot
slower as well. I imagine how.
Completely different car. I mean initially, yeah, in all
honesty, very disappointing because those E 30s had run in
DTM in initially 2.3 litre and then 2.5 litre with full
screaming race engines in them. I mean, if you watch back the
footage of DTM at that time, those cars were absolutely epic.
But of course we'd gone to this two litre formula, so our cars
were seriously dulled down in terms of horsepower from the DTM
equivalents and even more down on power obviously compared to
what we got out of the RS5 hundreds the year before.
So initially it was quite underwhelming, but of course it
then required a completely different set of driver
technique. It was all about cornering, you
know, everything was about momentum and cornering, just as
it is in anything that's sort of slightly underpowered.
Whereas the Colsworth was a point and squirt it shits and
giggles car. Yeah, you couldn't.
Get it? You couldn't get it round the
corner. Yeah, no property.
So, so suddenly the, the requirement from a driver point
of view was completely different.
And you know, you focused your mind on, you know, how to get
the best out of the chassis and get the best out of the chassis
did great. And the cars were really light,
really dancing. They danced about on fairly
narrow tyres. I mean, they were terrific cars.
I think, you know, in my heart and heart, I just wished we'd
had 2 1/2 litre. All our screamers in the in the
front, yeah. And I imagine in the DTM they
probably would. Would they have had stickier
tires as well compared to you? Yeah, probably, probably not a
lot in it relatively in all honesty, but yeah, probably.
But it was mainly the power that we didn't have.
And and of course, you know, the very first year of this formula
with two litre, you know, the engines were in their infancy.
By the time we get to the end of Super Touring, you know, in
2000, the engines were massively more powerful.
Yeah, even even in looks the the 1st two liter cars were
underwhelming compared to the the mighty Sierra and the
Rovers, you know they they look, they just looked like a road
going three series almost, you know it.
But as you say, when when the development race started, that's
when they got a bit more special.
Yeah, definitely. I mean it, you know, the, the
development race in all honesty started straight away, but
certainly by, you know 92 onwards, you know, it was very
much a development race. But if you look at you know, a
92 car, I won't say the 90, the 92 cars were obviously
specifically built for that championship.
We haven't had 318 racing in DTM or anything like that.
The E30 was a carry over. But if you look at that car
compared to one of the later Super Touring cars, I mean the,
the, the, the standard of technical development is just
so, so in its infancy back in 92 compared to the later cars.
Going into round three, that's that season 91 at Donnington.
A bit of an interesting meeting with all four Vickly cars
struggled to keep within the noise limits at the line, at the
line at Bellman, the sister M for he slows to avoid being
scrutineered. Potentially you get sick and
that means you do get scrutineered and then you fail
the noise test. Is that an interesting way you
can look in action? Yeah, I mean, there wasn't, you
know, there was only so much we could do at the circuit in terms
of repacking exhaust pipes and stuff and silence and things.
But of course it all just blew out when we ran the car.
So we could pass a static noise check, but there was no way we
could really pass the one at the end of the at the end of the
race. I mean, had I been a bit more
switched on, I'd have done what Ray did, you know, But I, I
didn't even think about it at the time.
But yeah, I can remember being a bit pissed off.
Yeah. That, you know, yeah, that's
probably we go racing and then we're we're, we're we're sort of
changing the results because the car makes a bit too much noise
for this. They're racing charts at the end
of the day. To being docked at 48 points for
that, that's pretty much, you know, your season's over.
I'm imagining that's that hurt quite a lot, I imagine Tim.
Yeah, but you know what drivers like, you know, you, you, you
put down one day and you get up the next day and you think
you're going to win the next race and it's all going to be
all right, you know. But, you know, and at that
stage, I don't think I, I was never thinking about a
championship really then anyway. I just wanted to go out and do
well at the next race. But yeah, I mean, it was, it
was, it was obviously a blow and a big blow for the team because
the cars were quick. The team you were with that year
was Victoria Lee and and you stayed with them into the second
year into 92, as you say with the new 318 that came out that
year, that year. I mean, your partnership, your
relationship with Victoria Lee, it was a, you know, very
fruitful relationship towards. What do you say?
Not in what are. You accusing me of?
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, despite the obvious issues that came about in the
middle of that year, it was the year you won the title, so
obviously a good relationship. Yeah.
Look, I, I, I grew up in Kent. As I said to you at the very
beginning, Victoria was a AVW dealer at White House VW.
That's where he worked. And he did production salons
with AVW Golf and I did some production salons myself.
So, you know, through locality and through racing, I'd actually
always been, I'd always known Victoria, you know, and as you
know, he's an Abrinian character.
You know, he's great company and he took an interest in my career
for the word go. So it was fairly, you know,
natural that I, I, I'd say I, I got the seekers.
I knew it because Vic wouldn't put anyone in the car if you
didn't think they'd do the business.
But it was a, it was a good relationship from that side of
things. And, you know, I was very
pleased when Vic became a factory team in 92 and I was
part of that, that that show. And you know, with Steve Sober
as a team mate, you know, you're, that's, you're in a
serious drive then, you know, very serious drive.
You know, we could do hours talking about that year just on
it's own. It's such a roller coaster of
absolutely everything, you know, from developing the car.
We had a fantastic team. You know, I've always said it,
you know, whatever anyone else might say about Victoria Lee, he
ran a fantastic team. You know, his, his, the guys
that worked for him would have walked over hot coals for him.
You know, he had that absolute racist instinct of a team owner.
And everybody gave their best. And, and, you know, once the car
started doing well and, you know, we, we, we were really
working well as a team. And it was all sort of
effectively ended in an instant when Victoria was suddenly
arrested. And then we had to salvage the
team and keep going and all the rest of it.
When you know, by all accounts, you'd have expected everything
to have been closed down. And that's that's the whole
story of what happened over the period between Victoria being
arrested in the next race. But, you know, and then to win
the championship at the end of the year was, yeah, just the
icing on an incredible year. You know that I I, I will never
and I don't suppose many people have ever had a a year of ups
and downs and emotions like I experienced in 92 for sure.
I can't imagine so, yeah. So we're we're talking about
that then, Tim, just briefly, what impact did that have on the
team now? So you lost him halfway through
the season with his arrest. And like you, like you said,
you've worked so well as a team and all of a sudden the main
man's gone. You've lost.
Your leader? Yeah, and he was an
inspirational leader, as I said. The only thing was that nothing
got impounded. You know, none of the cars or
equipment or anything got impounded.
You would have thought that everything would have been
impounded and seized and taken away, but it wasn't because
Customs as Excise had been watching fit for some months.
And they'd actually put a, a VAT inspector who was actually a
customs official into the business to have a look at, you
know, on the on the grounds of doing V8 routine VAT inspection.
And and they realized that actually the business stood up
perfectly, perfectly on its own. You know, we had some mainstream
sponsors obviously BMW, Shell, Harm and history and all these
people were genuine sponsors. All the paperwork was there.
It was all genuine. So they didn't see the assets of
the team as being the proceeds of drug dealing.
So they didn't they didn't take them.
And that was the first shock. So because all the equipment was
still there, our instincts, you know, myself, Steve Raybaum, you
know, particularly Ray, and as the businessman behind, you
know, a lot of experience was to say, well, how can we carry on?
You know, how can we keep this going?
We've got all the assets here. Why can't let's see if we can
keep it going. But of course, all the sponsors
wanted to run a mile, you know, being doubly included.
But that and that was their first reaction, you know,
distance yourself completely. But over the sort of hours,
days, I won't say weeks because it all happened fairly quickly.
You know, we were able to say to the sponsors, look, if you run
away now, you look guilty by association.
We all look guilty by association of, of being somehow
involved with it. But if we actually continue as
we are, but without reference to Victoria, it's very clear that
Victoria was the one that was. If you like in trouble and not
all of us and that took an awful lot of persuasion.
You can imagine the corporate logistics of trying to get that
one across the line. It was extremely difficult and
it actually got to the point where the next test that took
the test if you like at Donnington, we had the trucks
there delivery from Vickley Motorsport, but we had the
trucks outside the paddock and we were waiting for a call from
Tom Purvis from BMW to say whether we could or could not go
ahead. And you know, but whatever time
it was in the morning, 8:00, he said yes, you can go ahead and
we went in there. The team, the guys all knew what
to do because they were well drilled organization.
So in terms of running the cars, we knew what to do and at the
end of the day I was quickest and Steve was second and you
know, it was like a real statement.
But we're still here, we're still in business, we're still
competitive and we're still trying to win this bloody
championship. Yes, we've lost our league, but
it's nothing to do with us or how we want to go racing.
And of course then we carried on.
Yeah, it that 92 season was almost a season of two parts for
you in many ways, not just with what happened with with that
sort of side of it, but also you had the new 318, which started
the year pretty uncompetitively for both yourself and Pro Drive.
But then you got to the middle of the season and you guys at
Victoria Lee Racing got the car sorted.
It was running at the front, but it wasn't running at the front
with Pro Drive. They still were struggling.
Had you found something in the car that Pro Drive hadn't?
Yeah, it was basically some flexing in the rear suspension
arms that that that Victoria and Steve particularly had
identified as the problem. Steve with his incredible
feedback and and Victoria with his attention to detail and
studying everything. And I identified this and this
is what was basically causing handling problems for both us
and Pro Drive. But we've got to realise what
the situation was first and got a fix for it very quickly.
And that was what transformed the car.
It was nothing else on the car. It was basically getting that
that problem sorted. And yeah, as you say, then we
went on A roll. Five race wins in a row in that
fear, which is almost unheard of in touring car racing.
To do that in the middle of the season.
It meant that coming into into the finale, it was yourself,
Cleland and Hoy for the title, qualifying for that race that
put all three of you in the middle of the pack.
That was always probably likely to lead to a crazy race, wasn't
it? Yeah, I mean it was one of those
weekends, you know, obviously it was a massive amount of pressure
on all of us because we were all manufacturer factory drivers or
works drivers. So, you know, all the
manufacturers desperately wanted to win.
They'd all got their mainstream press adverts ready for the for
the Monday morning if they won. And you know, the pressure was
on for the word go. But because of weather
conditions in qualifying, we none of us have qualified
particularly well, although we're all sort of around each
other so it didn't really matter, it was just a case of
who was going to finish in front of the other two to win the
championship. It was always going to be a an
interesting race, wasn't it? With the three title
protagonists at mid grid, it was always going to be a a crazy
one. Yeah, because we weren't really
interested in anybody else in the race or what position we
were in. The only thing we were
interested in was where were the other two cars?
Because whoever finished in front of the other two was going
to win it. So it was irrelevant where we
were in the race. I mean, it's the only race I've
ever gone into where I I had absolutely no intention of
trying to win it at all. I was just trying to beat the
other two guys. I don't think I've ever started
the race where I didn't at least have the intention on the line
of trying to win the race. But at that one it was nothing
was further from my mind. It was it was just about
managing the race and trying to be in front of the other two
when the when the flag fell. And that that winning streak
that you went on prior, though, I mean, it's easily, and I've
said this before in in previous episodes of when this this
championship year, especially the finales come into
conversation like five races on the bounce.
I mean, that's pretty impressive.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean to.
Put yourself in that position. Like, you'd probably come out of
nowhere in a lot of people's eyes, really.
Like almost unheard of. Isn't it?
Yeah, like if that's like it's hard to get repeated now.
I'd never known back then as competitive as.
It was so, well, I think it was 6 races in normal, 5 on the
bounce that I won that year. But yeah, so I came into that
final with momentum on my side. You know, for as far as I was
concerned, I was actually probably the favorite, despite
the fact that John was still leaving the points.
I felt like I was probably the one who who had momentum and and
speed on my side. But I think the most important
aspect of that meeting and one that I have sent on countless,
and they're going into a championship desire to decide
and subsequently they've either said, yeah, that was the best
advice or that I ever heard. But basically I just knew that
out of the three of us, whoever wanted it badly enough was going
to win it. It wasn't something you could
let fall in your lap. You couldn't choke or fold or
have it fall in your lap. You had to want it more than the
others. And, and that and I, I've always
felt I had an absolute burning will to win when I went racing,
you know, in latter years when I was 57 years old and I was
beating people in Carrera Cup who were half my age and half my
weight and who done every bit of preparation they had to do with
their engineers in the scene doing everything.
And I'd run down from the comfy boxes, I'd be doing touring cars
and jump in the car at the last minute when they'd all prepared
and got ready and I'd go win. And, and people say, well, how
do you do that? And I would say it's a, the one
thing I've got that they haven't is the will to win.
And that's based on not having excuses because modern racing,
you know, drivers will do their driving, they'll look at the
data, they'll see where they could have gone 3/10 quicker.
And that's great. I've got the excuse for them not
being 3/10 quicker, but I know where to find it.
Whereas I come to the school of you either did or you didn't.
And you know, the only way you could overcome that was with
your will to win because that's, that's the ingredient you can't
measure. And so go back to the final
meeting, it was in my nature that I wanted to have the the
the biggest desire to win because I knew that John was
most likely to choke because he'd been leading the
championship all year and it was his to lose.
And that put the pressure on him.
With me coming off this great run of results, I felt he was
the one that was most likely to choke him and and you know, have
it all to lose and that this did actually prove to be the case.
Will was, if you like, the most level headed, sensible guy who
probably had it all figured out but probably didn't have the
best car. So, you know, with all things
considered, I went into that thinking actually I was the
favorite and I was going to be the one that was going to win.
Despite people's views on what went on at that race meeting, I
think it's fair to say that that that that race, that that
meeting brought the attention of touring cars to the mass
motorsport of the mass of motorsport fans because it was
niche is the wrong word, but it certainly wasn't mainstream
until that title decider. Oh yeah, I mean touring cars to
everyone and we. People still talk about it now.
And yeah, you know, I know, I know Adam thinks I'm, I'm, I'm
fed up to the back teeth of talking about it, particularly
as sort of two years ago was the 30th anniversary and it was done
to death that year. But you know, I, I, I can't not
talk about it because it, it was a defining moment in my career
and in, and as you say, in the popularity of touring cars,
people still come up to me and go.
I was there that day. I was in the crowd, you know,
and it, it, I've loved touring cars ever since.
It was just the highlights of everything that about
competition and motorsport, that that transcends normal sport and
human emotion and everything else.
It was all encapsulated in that race.
So I'm forever delighted that it's, it's the race that people
are talking about and that I came out as the champion.
But with the, the other side of the coin that there's always
this, this element of, well, you know, you wouldn't have won it
if Steve hadn't had his incident with John.
I maintain I still would have won it, but no one would be
talking about that year in the way they still do if it hadn't
happened. So, you know, it's, it's, you
know, the other, the other joke I make is, well, I, I said I've
actually made a living off it for 13 years.
It gave me a profile that you know I wouldn't have otherwise
have had. And, and I always tell people
this that it, it was not decided there.
Yes, there was a shunt, but there was shunts at other races,
someone who had like mechanical failure, somebody would have
been punted in the gravel. Somebody would have, you know,
like it wasn't decided there. You run six races, 5 on the
bounce, but you're firmly in the position that you were in to get
your elbows out and to be the the one that wanted to win it
the most. It wasn't solely because of that
incident. You look at you know it, it'd
take hours to do, but go through every single incident that
happened throughout the season. This is no difference to any
championship that we watch now, whether it be, you know, Formula
One or just like, I don't know, if Lucid doesn't have a shit
car, they either won the championship or if he hadn't had
a mechanical failure, he'd won that race.
Yeah, but life's full of ifs and buts.
Well, you understand that because you're a driver and you
you. Know what happens?
Happened. But if you're, if you're, if
you're just a spectator and you're just a viewer, you will.
And especially if you'll, you'll have a bias towards one or the
other person. You will always think that one
moment has defined the championship.
Didn't it make touring cars fantastic?
No, no, it did. I know completely did.
And it's an iconic moment and it, and I think it like you
said, 30 years on, people are still talking about it now.
We still talk about it and lots of people talk about it and it
is an iconic moment in the history of touring cars.
Yeah. For this series of Stories from
Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2, which is
being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June
2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question.
Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories from Super
Touring? Send your answers to pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode. This series.
Meanwhile, let's get back to the episode.
Coming off that, then at the end of 1992 in BMWUK withdrawing at
the end of that season, you made the move to Renault's new
programme for 1993, only for BMW to then withdraw from the DTO
and play Schnitzer in the BTCC for 1993.
Was that frustrating? I mean, did you have knowledge
of of that happening for Schnitzer in 93 in advance of
signing for an or was that a sort of situation of then sort
of being frustrated sort of leaving BMW to then see them
come back in? Was that a frustrating winter
for that reason? It was probably the worst, the
worst moment, my motorsport career, part of my accident
following on directly from the best moment in my career because
having secured the championship, I, you know, I thought and I was
led to believe that at that point, you know, I would stay
with BMW, I'd have a contract for the following year.
You know, that was everything I ever wanted was was that that
was it the rule, the the disagreement between BMW and
tape about the rules involving wage and ABS and all the other
things that they were arguing about.
I didn't foresee BMW pulling out and I didn't when they did pull
out, I didn't think it was merely a, a foot stamping
exercise. I really thought they were out.
I thought that was it. And you know, so, you know, from
thinking I was going to drive in a bit of Dublin to realize and
this just wasn't even an option anymore.
I had no inkling, you know, there's no knowledge.
I mean, maybe if I'd been a bit more experienced, I would have
looked into it a bit closer and worked out maybe what was
happening, maybe not being quite so quick to sign for Renault.
But you know, the Renault deal they came along, it was they
wanted to sort of state their intentions from the word go.
You know, they, they saw hiring me as the, the reigning champion
as a good move. The money was good.
I, I saw no reason to sort of think that Renault wouldn't do
an amazing job. They were a company born and
bred in motor sports. So I thought it would be
absolutely fantastic, you know, having signed for them.
I've been over to France, seen the the the development car,
which was basically like a Bull Bed Rd. car, which immediately
alerted my fears to then have BMW settle their differences
with Toca technically and reaffirm they're coming back
with Schnitzer, where it's just an absolute body blow, you know,
And of course, all the time I'm watching Joe Wiglevoque, you
know, winning races and taking the championship in the car I
felt I should have been in and would have been doing the same,
you know, it was absolutely gut wrenching.
So yeah, very disappointing. But that's, that's, that's the
force in the road that every driver has in motorsport.
You know, you just can't odds it sometimes which way it goes.
And there's an element of luck to it.
You know, I can look back and think, actually I might have
played that slightly differently, have I had a bit
more experience and knowledge of the politics of motorsport and
things. But you know, at the time I
thought I was doing the right thing.
Do you think just that back to that team?
Obviously it was some years ago. Do you think now that probably
wouldn't happen because you'd happily have a manager if you're
on board now like most drivers do to help help with that side
of things more, do you think? I think certainly now there's a
lot more and later in the 90s, obviously there was a lot more
professionalism came to it. But you know, I, I always did my
own deals. I never had a manager.
I always did everything myself. Certainly those days very few
people did, you know, you know, obviously I mean Steve, well he
didn't have a manager and he he'd been a factory driver for
Ford and to Wolf inshore and BMW.
So I didn't really particularly sort of see the need.
I'd always been commercially quite savvy myself.
But I think the reality is perhaps if I'd sort of thought
about it more behind the scenes or had somebody that could say
hold on a second, this is might get sorted with BMW and hang on
a bit. I could have played, you know, I
could have strung Renault along for a bit.
I could have done all sorts of things and I didn't play that.
Yeah, but also you've got Ren on the table, one of, you know,
coming in it's strong like you said, salary was good coming
coming into, you know, put their put their mark in the sand.
Really here we are and we're going to have a proper go at
see, I suppose it's hard knowing that this opportunity here, your
reigning champion, that opportunity is there.
Do you hang around and wait potentially not to happen and
then all of a sudden you'll be kicking yourself not taking
this. So I think God, I took the
Renault thing but but going back to the the Red House office, so
when you went over to to France and used to see the test car,
was there a certain handbrake installed?
Into this vehicle, yeah. There was, did you think, hold
on a minute, do they have they saw me to do rallying here or?
Yeah, I, I, I mean, I couldn't believe it.
The car had standard pedals, so it didn't have a proper pedal
box. It had standard pedals and a
handbrake. And it was, it was about 6 foot
off the ground as well. And, and I mean my, and they
presented this very proudly, you know, like, you know, I'm
thinking shit. Like a Formula One and yeah and
the. Only thing I could say why is it
not a bloody handbrake? And they said, Oh, well, that's
because Jean Ragnotti is our is our test driver and he likes to
do handbrake turns and skids. And I thought, Jesus, this is.
This is going to take a while. Yeah, how?
Because you can't tell people that or it's very difficult
politically to tell people they're doing not doing about a
good job because they they think they produce the best they can.
So yeah, it was. I knew we were going to have in
for a long year at that point. So first impressions were not
good then? We could certainly say that.
They certainly were. No, no.
They were, despite the uncompetitiveness of the the
Renault 19 you had that year, you did take the first win of
what was many in that period for Renault in the BTCC at the
European Grand Prix support race at Donnington Park.
A day where it wasn't just yourself showing wet weather
skills, it was also a certain eye and Stena.
So that was has been a surreal day to have yourself alongside
Senna as one of the victors. Well, of course, it was the
first and only Grand Prix at Donnington for a start, which
was, you know, big event. You know, I personally have
always loved driving in the rain and they had a lot of success
race, right? It never bothered me at all, but
it was the one and only time that the car did actually
perform well. Probably because it was. 6 foot
off the ground and avoided all the water.
Six off the ground, soft and had Michelin tired.
So you could use the handbrake at the Melbourne Hairpin.
Exactly, it's probably the only time I wish they'd left it in
actually. Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I mean, you know, it was a great day.
It was a brief moment of rest, fight, You know, it was a great,
great day in terms of that. It was nice to get a win for
Renault. I knew it flattered to be seen.
That was down to the weather conditions that one of the
funniest moments was actually in the park firm 1/2 as at the end
of the race, I got out the car and Charlie Lamb from Schnitzer
was there reporting back to Munich about the race, hear him
on the radio. And I heard they obviously said
to him who won the race and he said Tim Harvey in the Renault.
And then they obviously said, can you repeat that?
Because, because he said, yeah, that's right, Tim Harvey in the
red. And I thought that tells you
how, how, how what everyone else's expectations were.
But yeah, I mean, look, it was it was a good day.
I always laugh about, you know, Senna was actually my hero.
I, I, I've seen Senna racing carts and he was really special.
He'd always been my hero. That's why my crash helmet is
yellow. When I started karting, my my
crash helmet was yellow because of watching him in the World
Championships in Novell. And he was just absolutely
mesmeric to watch in a go Kart, in a Kart.
And so actually, yeah. I mean, I always joke that, you
know, the real expert on the day was me and not Senna.
But yeah, quite a nice thing to share if you like.
Moving on from the 19 into 94 and I'm sure you were glad to
get rid of that thing. The Renault moved to the the
Laguna and Renault progressed and started winning races.
You and Alan were winning races, but these were front wheel drive
machines. I mean you'd come through the
ranks single seaters big, you know the big RS5 hundreds, all
rear wheel drive machines. Same at Le Mans.
How much of A was it alien? Was it an alien concept to you
racing these front wheel drive machines or?
No, I mean don't forget I've done, I've, I've, I've done
those years in or couple years in the MPU metro.
Channel, yes. The Metro, yes, yeah.
But that was my first and prior to prior to the Renault, my only
front wheel drive experience. As you say, everything else has
been in rear wheel drive from, you know, go karts to Formula
Ford to all the other cars I've driven, production salons, TVRS,
sports cars, Group C, everything had been rear wheel drive.
And whilst driving a front wheel drive car is a different
exercise technically and one that, you know, I certainly
wasn't bad at, it wasn't what came naturally to me.
And as the cars developed, you know, certainly by the time
we're into 94 now, the cars are getting fully heavily developed.
And I think in my hearts, I knew that actually front wheel drive
really wasn't for me, but I couldn't say anything.
Obviously, you know, I'm being paid to drive the car.
You're never going to admit that, that that you have any
weakness. But it wasn't it wasn't natural
to me. It was something I had to work
at. And I actually never enjoyed.
I've never enjoyed driving a front wheel drive car in the way
that I enjoy driving a rear wheel drive car.
And I can say it now because it doesn't matter, but, you know,
and I think, and that's when I realized that if you like people
like Alan Menu, Ricard Weigel, you know, they, they actually
had a little bit of an edge on me with just technique in that
they were better suited to a front of the drive car.
And that's why, you know, I mean, I, I, I look at it
nowadays and you know, drivers still still say the same thing,
that this makes no difference whether it's front or rear wheel
drive. But I know that they're only
saying that because they have to say it.
The exception to the rule is Ash Sutton, who is quite remarkable.
He is the only driver to have won the British entire
championship in front and rear wheel drive cars and has the the
natural ability in both. I haven't seen the like of that
among from any other driver ever.
I would say that every out of the driver would tell if they
could tell you honestly, privately, they'd say they have
a preference from one or the other.
Yeah. So yeah, that was that was that
was the case for me anyway. So with with obviously we saw
you in Alain reunited at Super Touring Power last year at
Brands Hatch. Did you always get on well as
team mates? What'd you do at the moment?
Not always. Let's say there was an there was
an infamous letter, wasn't there?
Yeah, there was a letter I published a little while back.
Yeah. I mean, look, Alain was really
competitive. He was a very driven,
competitive guy. And, you know, he wanted to win
really badly. And he was a bloody good driver,
you know, really naturally talented, very quick.
But I mean, you know, when I beat him, all the toys would fly
out without the pram. I can remember hearing it
absolutely gutted when I won that race at Donington because
it was the first win for Renault.
And, you know, I mean, he was absolutely gutted.
I mean, of course he had the last laugh because, you know, he
stayed with Red now and had far more success.
But yeah, I mean, he and he and I, we had a great amount of
respect for each other and we are good friends now, you know,
genuinely good friends and have been, you know, ever since we
stopped being teammates, really. But, you know, nobody wants to
be being beaten by a teammate, of course.
But, you know, like I said, he had the last laugh.
He he beat me more than I beat him and went on to, you know,
far greater success. Touching on that, at the end of
94, as you mentioned, sort of Alan stayed with the team, you
moved on. Did you get a chance to stay
with Renault at the end of the 1994 season or was it was it
just that they chose to go in a different direction?
What happened with that? I, I had, I had, I had some
fallings out with Renault management because I've been
very openly critical of the way the program was being run, you
know, because I felt that was my job as you know, the established
driver to try and be honest and lead the team forward.
But as I said before, nobody likes to be told that their
efforts aren't in the right direction or good enough because
everybody's doing the best that they can.
But the reality was it wasn't the right way to go racing in 93
to 94 MCT. The team that were running it
metal concept technology, they they weren't an established race
team of the level that should have been running a factory
British touring car operation. They got the deal because the
owners were mates of Tim Jackson at Renault UK and it was a bit
that's the only reason they got the deal.
And you know, I don't there's a place for loyalty.
But you know, when you're trying to do a job, you go to the best
people to do the job. And there were countless other
race operations that could have done probably a better job.
Renault obviously agreed with you because eventually they went
to Williams. So exactly, you know, you, you
were right. So yeah.
But I upset a lot of people it. Just didn't like that.
You were right. Yeah, I upset people along the
way and you know, and now I'm being French speaking, had a
much better involvement with Renault in France and Sedamo,
the engine suppliers and everybody else where I was sort
of seen as a sort of slightly the leader of troublemaker if
you like. So I think it was, it was a
district we both knew was we weren't going to continue our
relationship. So you you moved to Volvo for
that year and it saw you team up with Ricard Rydell?
Yeah, talk about how the frying. Pan, I was going to say, yeah,
so you've gone from a French speaking teammate in a French
team to a Swedish driver, Swedish manufacturer.
Yeah, also also with a prodigious talent as well.
Yes, yeah. You know, and and there were
always whispers that Ricard always got preferential
treatment of Volvo. I mean, that's a sort of, is
that a tough environment to go into and was that the case?
Yeah, well, it was really because obviously Ricard had
been there for the word go with the with the year before with
the estate car and it was established and all the rest of
it, you know, they get let Yan Lamas go because effectively
Ricard had blown him out of water.
And you know, it was, it was a tough gig.
But actually I'd never been frightened of team mates.
You know, I'd had Steve sober as a team mate Rouse.
I'd always had good team mates. So it didn't really worry me.
I don't say didn't worry me. I suppose I was quite happy to
take on that challenge and actually in fact I was looking
forward to driving for TWR. I'd known Tom Walkinshaw from,
you know, sports car racing when I they ran the Silk Cup Jaguars
and I raced against them with spice.
So, you know, we'd actually had a good respect between us.
I think it was probably the fact that what I'd done in sports car
racing that probably got me that driver Tom, rather than anything
else. And, you know, I actually
enjoyed very much the team. I Ricard was a fabulous
teammate. He's a wonderful human being, a
great person. You know, we're still good
friends and we never, ever had a, a crossword between us during
that year. It was actually, it was a really
good fun year in terms of, you know, everything going pretty
well. Yeah, I was going to say I saw a
piece before where I can't remember who it was.
It was either Ricard saying about you or you saying about
Ricard about how good your relationship was.
And lots of golf. Yeah, a lot of golf, yeah.
I mean, don't forget in those days we had we had a full time
test team, you know, the cars were, you know, front side cars.
So everything on them was free. We didn't have a control path,
so we'd be out testing every week with with cars.
So, you know, we, we, we had a set of clubs in the, in the
transportation, you know, after debrief at the end of the day in
the summer when it's light until 10:00, we, we often play golf.
And and didn't you do that at Knock Hill as well?
Didn't you tell me the story once where you did Knock Hill
like or it with a briefing or? Yeah, we paid off in about 15
minutes. Yeah, well, we were.
I remember the year, that year we were in Knock Hill for a
week. We were up there for the whole
week and we played golf every single day at some point.
It was brilliant. But actually, you know, golf is
a great escapism from racing because you're just completely
away from it. It is a singular individual
sport. It's not a team sport.
And you know, whatever we racing drivers might say about the team
and us and all the rest of it, you know, we're selfish pastors
and we're really only in it for ourselves.
But we know that actually we have to say thank you to the
team because without them we can't do it.
But really, yeah, he's it's a man against man competition.
And actually, that's that. Golf is the same.
Yeah, well that that season you had a very strong start, didn't
you? Including a clean sweep of a
very wet Brands Hatch and took the early points lead.
But Rydell seemed to sort of pull some results out of the bag
as it sort of went on and and progressed a bit.
More, I mean, Ricard, was he, he, he was a fantastic
qualifier. We do all this testing and you
know, I would, I would match him in testing and there'd be, you
know, nothing between US. And then you do free practice
and there'd be nothing between US.
And then when it came to qualify, he would suddenly find
a 10th and 1/2 or a little bit, you know, if his optimum lap
time was a 122 seven, he would do a 122 five or six.
And, and I would do the 122 seven that I thought was that
that was the, you know, the perfect lap, if you like that up
until that based on the he would just always find something and
that would usually put him three or four places up on the on the
grid or something. And from there, you know, you're
going to get a better result. You know, I actually probably on
reflection, go back to the fact that he was a better front wheel
drive driver than me, you know, as simple as that.
But it didn't, it didn't really faze me.
I mean, I, I still, you know, I still enjoyed the year and
enjoyed the success that we had. You sure he just wasn't, you
know, bit of different mapping for him for qualifying or?
Might have been like, like not like.
It might have matched. Him and you've you've been like,
you know, you know, at least the team always knew they were
getting the absolute best they could out the car because you're
both neck and neck in terms of times and qualifying practice
tests and all that. But all of a sudden qualifying
comes and it's like, oh. Yeah, well, maybe he had a bit
more advance on the on the map or something like that, you
know, I don't know. But the fact is he still
delivered the lap, you know, he still did it.
But, you know, yeah, he, he, he, he, he, he definitely.
Yeah. I mean, whenever we had
development parts, he would always get first.
And that was just the way he was.
He'd already established himself as that, that number one in the
team. But you know, how much of the
the difference between us was down to Hearts or him?
I couldn't really tell you, but you know he he certainly
deserved the the success that he had you.
You also that you had Tom Walkinshaw as your team boss,
but what was it like working with him because he seemed like
a real character of the paddock. Tom was a a nightmare to work
for, but if you were just a competitor, he was great.
I mean, as I said, you know, I, I've been a competitor against
him in sports cars and you know, we'd always exchanged chat with
the paddock. He was perfectly convivial and
normal and everything else. The moment I went to work for
him, he was a tiring and there's no other describing it.
I mean, back in sports cars, it would have been in about 1990, I
think, in the world's sports cars at Donnington.
And the result was 2 S on Mercedes and the Silk Cut Jaguar
in 3rd. And I was fourth in the Spice,
but the Jaguar got disqualified because it had used too much
fuel. And so we inherited third place,
but we didn't get to stand on the podium because it happened
after the race. And I thought there was no
chance of ever seeing that trophy.
You know, Tom would smash it up before he gave it to anyone
else. And then that week in the post
came the trope, the 3rd place trophy and a note from Tom
saying, yeah, well done. And I thought, well, that's,
that's something that, you know, nobody would normally know about
that you hear about the bad side, but that was good.
The bad side of him being the boss was that a whole TWR group
was Ronald Mafia Princeton. And everyone was petrified of
their head manager and line manager in front and all the
rest of it. And wherever he turned up a
race, it changed the whole atmosphere in the team, and not
for the better. But you know, that meeting at
Brands when I won the first race in the wet and I thought I'll
ask, you know, team will all be happy and celebrate and all the
rest of it. But they were all quite sort of
calm. And that's because in Tom's
eyes, winning the race was merely what you should do.
You know, it wasn't no cause for great celebration.
It was merely just the the culmination of what you've done
and what you. Should do.
And, and I remember coming in after the race and, you know,
expecting a sort of well done chat or something.
And he said, well, that was adequate.
That was his, that was his description of winning the race.
That was adequate. And then between the races,
because we only had 10 minutes in those days, the start of
those have failed. And I couldn't get out onto the
grid for age 2. And I was in the pit lane and
Tom came down and opened the door to sort of give me some
words of advice. And I said to well, that was
less than adequate, Tom, about the start of those and then and
then set off at the back for the second race, which got grid
flagged on on the first lap because of an accident.
And I got to start in my original grid position and then
won the second race. And I thought I was dying to get
back to the pits and sort of see what Tom had to say then because
I thought, well, he's got to say that's more than adequate now.
But he actually fucked off in his helicopter already.
So I've never had the conversation with him, but yeah,
yeah. I mean, you know, there was a
good at a bad that was the bad at Tom.
But the good was, like I said, in, you know, when he sent me
the trophy. And and also then in 89 when I
drove for him in the Volvo at Bathurst and had a huge accident
on an oil spill and got admitted to hospital.
And the first thing he did was, you know, sent me a first class
airplane ticket to get home more comfortably.
You know, you think well and that was having written off the
car and sold to Jim Richards to race in the Aussie Championship
the following year, so you know he'd.
Expensive weekend for him, wasn't it?
It was. But you know, he, he showed his
human side. So you know, he, he was a man of
contradiction. I'll say that.
So you spent that single year at Volvo and then took the move to
Peugeot in 96 where you debuted the new four O 6, which and
unfortunately like most Peugeot's at that time, was
uncompetitive. Was it ever hard if you had a
say you had an uncompetitive car like that four or six that year?
Was it? Did you ever find it hard to
motivate yourself if you had such a limitation with your cars
or or was that never an issue? No, it was never an issue.
I mean, Adam will tell you that as a driver, irrelevant of sort
of where you qualified or what we did, and I'm not including
that 92 race that I talked about before, but inevitably, wherever
you've qualified, you sit on the grid and you think that you can
make the difference and that you have a chance.
You know, the racing driver is the eternal optimist.
It's only when realist realism sets in that he changes the
attitude. But you know, you always think
you can make a difference or make it work and hard work pays
off. I mean, I think I'll correct
you. The 406 hadn't had a year
before. Or was it the 4:05 that they've
had that they can't? Either 96 was the first year of
the 406, the red total one. Right.
OK. Yeah.
So they brought the 4:05 before with Simon Harrison and Patrick.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I mean, look, it was it was, it was a paid program,
you know, it was. There was no reason for me not
to do it. You know, the Peugeot had
obviously great success in Europe with Laura Aiello.
I thought that, you know, we could replicate some of that.
But you know, as as you well know, there was absolutely 0
cooperation between Peugeot England and Peugeot Sport in
France. Well.
Obviously coming on to that team, we had meet meet Linford
on the pod in TV 3 and it's and I was completely unaware of this
as well. It's all just about the bizarre
politics between the French side of it in the UK and just like I
could not believe the lack of support conversations just
doesn't just like. Wanted to share data or
anything. Yeah, like whoever would be the
head of Persia would want the best for the brand, wouldn't
you? But clearly not.
They actually want what they want for France, and these want
what they want for the UK. And they're literally like two
different teams. It was the league.
I mean, literally the whole development from front to back
engine, everything that we did was done by by us, you know,
within the UKMSD and, and Peugeot.
We didn't get anything from France.
They wouldn't even share the engines.
You know, they'd call engines for the car and they wouldn't
even share those. Yeah.
But I think that he said they did a back-to-back test and Alex
did they. And yes, even then the the in
the in the diner room, they didn't even have the same like
test them in the same way. No, they wouldn't.
They wouldn't. They wouldn't be.
I think they've got like that they have cold air, fresh cold
air coming from outside for their engine.
Didn't bother with yours. They just this, it was this
whole, the whole thing was very, very bizarre.
I mean, you did. It's almost as if you were like
an independent team, but you weren't.
You were, you were the manufacturer of Persian team.
Yeah. I I just don't understand why
there was no cooperation. And, and and you were, you were
running out the Wrighton plants at the time when Peugeot was at
Wrighton. As well, wasn't it you?
Yeah, initially and then to to MSD and to be fair, as a very
professional operation, you know, and, and those tiles were
they were very good. They were just not quite good
enough to win in the year that they were they were running it.
And I always say, you know, like that, that the 97 Peugeot would
have won in 96 and the 909098 Persia would have won in 97.
It was just always a little bit. Coming into 97 as well, I mean
the whole story of Peugeot in that period when we talk about
is that they were probably the most present brand that didn't
win a race in that period. You very nearly changed that
script on its head at Froxton in 1997 with a brilliant weather
performance that day. What was that race like in the
car? What was it like sort of carving
your way through the field having got the the decision on
tyres right? It must have been thrilling,
even if you didn't sort of quite get there in terms of winning
and getting that brilliant 2nd place instead.
Yeah, it's it is a frustration that Persia was the only
manufacturer I drove for that I didn't win a race with.
The fact that nobody won a race doesn't sort of make it any
better. It just, I would love to have
won a race with every manufacturer I drove with, But
yeah, I mean, that was the closest.
And, you know, it was just one of those things where you take a
bit of a punt on it, but once you can feel the car coming to
you, you've got some some heat and some grip coming to you,
you're just trying to literally make the most of it.
Every corner, every lap, because every corner or every lap, you
can push that little bit harder. You know, I just came up a lap
short. But it was, yeah.
I mean, races like that are always fun and I've always been
prepared to roll the dice, you know, pretty earlier than sort
of most people when there's that option to go to slicks if you or
intermediates as it wasn't in the day there.
But yeah, I mean, there's nothing worse than hanging on on
a pair of wets on a drying track and getting slower and slower.
I'd rather be. I'd rather.
Be doing the hunting than the hunting if you like.
Yeah, so just gave up a lap too. Sure that that Peugeot was
probably one of the stronger Peugeots that year anyway,
because you you had a you had another podium at Donnington.
You and Patrick both scored well throughout the year.
So out of the Peugeots, it wasn't, yeah, was probably one
of the more competitive ones. So it's just a shame they didn't
get that one step. Yeah, yeah.
It was a good looking car as well.
Everybody, everybody loved that livery and and still really
good, yeah. Brands last year when when that
that car was out on track, everyone was out yeah, I love
love the SO Ultron car yeah love the Peugeot four O 6 beautiful
car. Well, I was talking to Jake Hill
at Brands Hatch a couple weeks ago.
He's driven, he's just driven one.
I mean, he's driven the Panera as well.
Yeah. And he said, I just love it
every time I get in one of those Super Touring cars.
They're so light and on their toes and responsive and
everything else, he said. Absolutely fantastic.
And, and he, he always loved that, that Peugeot for delivery
and sadly you get a mechanical, which was not uncommon in those
cars when he drove it. But yeah, he loved driving it.
He said it was fantastic. Talking of driving fun, you,
you, you. You've already touched on it,
but you did end up going to Bathurst when the Super Touring
cars were the focus of the great race for 97.
And I, I mean, I know you had you, as you said, you had a
heavy shunt in the Volvo there, but good to go over and take
part in an iconic event that such as Bathurst.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, Bathurst is
just such an amazing track. It definitely might top three or
4 tracks anywhere in the world. It's a fantastic track.
I love the way the Aussies go racing.
I love their enthusiasm for it. Yeah.
And OK, it wasn't a a V8 super car, but actually driving the
cars with you around there was fantastic.
You know, I enjoyed it with the Peugeot.
I enjoyed it more with the Volvo.
Didn't get a result in the race, but you know, absolutely loved
it and been back stints and did 24 hour GT race there and it's
it's just a fantastic place. Yeah.
The talking of the Volvo 98, you nearly only look back in the
Swedish cars, didn't you? For 99?
How close were you for that? Yeah, I think it was very close
actually. You know, it, it, I think what I
mean, I've said it on record before, but I think, I mean, if
you look back, I was actually the the closest teammate to
Rickard in terms of results and performance that that anyone
ever had that they ever had. You know, they they subsequently
obviously had they've had Yan Lamas, then they had Kelvin Burt
and yeah, I mean, I, I, it was, it was close.
I mean, it was definitely close. And in fact, when I jumped in
the escorted to do Bathurst, I was very close to Rickard
straight away on times. So I think it was it was close.
Here comes a cup of tea. Lovely.
Thank you very much for delivery.
I told you. The refreshments.
It's the half time girl. Yeah, I think, I think it was
close. We got to the stage of
negotiating and I probably asked for too much money.
Tom was being mean and he could get Vincent Rademacher for a
fraction of what I asked for. So that's what he did.
But you know, I think it's a shame.
I would have really loved to have gone back and done another
year with Volvo. I think we'd have actually done
very well. It would have would have been
good for me and I think I'd have, you know, been right there
with Rickard and we do have a very good year, but wasn't to
be. But that's another one of the
forks in the road that you have as a driver.
Some win, some you win, some you don't.
Into 19 and then you would then go into a team manager role with
Team Dynamics for the end of the Super Touring period and you
did. As you said, some you win, some
you lose and one you did win as team manager was that famous
race at Donnington Park in the first meeting of 1999.
Must have felt pretty special to be a part of that, especially on
your first weekend in the job. Yeah, I mean, I, I wasn't, my
role was not so much as team manager in terms of logistics
and things like that. You know, I, my role was
basically to act as an intermediary between Matt and
his engineer and the team. Because as a driver, you know,
I, I, I could see and talk to Matt about what he wanted and
what he needed in terms of how he wanted to use his tires and
what was available and what he was looking for in the car.
And I could, I could interpret that and perhaps relay that
between him and the engineer a little bit better than he could
do. And I could see opportunities,
but he might take advantage of that.
The engineer wouldn't necessarily see, because I could
think with my drivers hat on. And I actually think it's a
really, it's a really good, valuable role that a lot of
teams don't, don't actually take up on.
You know, they see the engineer and the driver and that's it.
And in some spaces, that works extremely well.
But the engineer isn't a driver, so he doesn't, he doesn't think
about the things that a driver can do.
And the actual driver is busy doing his driving and doesn't
always have the scope to see the outside.
And he certainly doesn't see what other cars and other people
are doing and when they're doing it, why they're doing it.
And the engineer is nowadays his head down in a computer and he
doesn't see that either. So there's a real place for
somebody with that experience and that look to just see
things. And I mean, even, I mean, I
remember in that year jumping on the radio to shout at the mat
when there was oil down at Brands Hatch.
No one else would have known because they're not looking at
it as the driver. So you, you know, there's a
role. But that was my role with Matt
that that year. And yeah, I mean, obviously, you
know, but I didn't play any significant role in that result
whatsoever. But it was a fantastic weekend
and great fun. Yeah, I mean, it was really
special. It was, it was almost like you
were. It certainly felt from from the
viewing side of it that you were almost as like another driver
coach almost then, because I remember, I think it was at
Brands Hatch as well where you were on the radio.
And basically I think Nissan would dictate in where you guys
could finish because you weren't to finish in front of the works
cars. And it was all lights on, lights
off stuff. And I think Matt was getting a
bit hot headed and you were sort of calming him down, Rob Smedley
style, almost with Massa sort of thing, you know?
But not calling him Felipe baby. But yeah.
Matt's no. Matt's no baby, that's for sure.
I'm not sure if he was a black belt in judo then he might have
been or might not have been, but I certainly wouldn't argue with.
Him. But yeah, as you say, a very
interesting role. Yeah.
When you. And you did that once, once you
you'd finished that, you were back behind the wheel for two
more seasons. No super tours anymore, but you
were. It was first of all in a A147,
which looked like a real tricky thing to drive.
And then you were back with Victoria Lee in 2002 in the
Persia. Good to be back in with Vic.
Yeah, I mean, I did the Alfa Romeo thing.
I was, I was actually wasn't there as a driver at all.
The drivers were Tom Ferrier and Dave Pink and I was there doing
the role that I'd done with Matt as the sort of intermediary, if
you like. Right.
Yeah. But the team had so many
problems and issues with. It was a new team JS John
Shields Racing and loads of problems with reliability and
performance and things and and you know, I think and it was at
Donington and Dave Pinkley said, well, I'm not going to drive it
anymore or something. And so I had to dust off the
overalls and jump in. But it wasn't it was there.
I was never there as a driver, but I managed to get a podium
with the car and and I remember in that race, I think I was
racing against Steve, Steve Sober who was in the Berger and
I beat Steve in that race in the Alpha, which probably shouldn't
have happened. Of course, once again Victoria
came and said well I want you to drive for me next year.
So I ended up doing my last year in 2002 with Victoria in the
Peugeot. Yeah, 10 years after the title.
Almost like, yeah, full circle really isn't.
It, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I haven't really thought about
that, but yeah, it was, I mean, you know, obviously it was
again, the car wasn't very competitive.
It was too big physically for the current regulations.
Big lump that thing, wasn't it? So yeah, it wasn't, it was a
shame, but you know, it was nice to be back with Victoria and
Steve and staff and, you know, at that stage I, I'd lost the
love of driving front wheel drive shopping cars.
And so it was, it was my swansong year.
But yeah, nothing. Nothing that I really remember
about that, apart from being pushed off at Druids by Tom
Chilton, yeah. In his first race without even a
driving license at the time if I remember.
Slightly outrageous, and it showed.
Punching you off. Yeah, cost me some bonus money
as well. I remember that from the podium.
Yeah, I've never let him forget it either.
I've never let him forget it. Good.
You mentioned there obviously sort of falling out of love with
driving those front wheel drive cars and then sort of shopping
trolleys, wasn't it? Shopping trolleys.
Yeah, Yeah. You definitely call them
shopping trolleys. Gently described them, you did.
You did. Then go into the Porsche Carrera
Cup for a few years after that with great success within the
title in 2008 and 2010. Were they fun cars to drive?
And I'm guessing probably a bit more fun in a Porsche Carrera
Cup rear wheel drive than a 406 Sean and Johnny.
OK, yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, I just clicked
with the Porsches as soon as I drove them.
I'd actually done a Super Cup race back in 94.
Porsche ran the VIP super guest car and I'd done the Super Cup
race at Silverstone at the Grand Prix and finished second
actually to Kelvin Burke. So I'd already, I'd already had
a run in the car and straight away loved it and enjoyed it.
And I'd also done 1/2 year in, I think it was 89 in full Super
Cup. So I'd had some experience of
the cars. But when I jumped back in one in
2003 for the guest race, I think it was yeah, I loved it straight
away and was immediately quick in it.
And the cars are fun, you know, they're powerful, rear wheel
drive, no ABS, no traction control, proper sports car feel
to them. And it just all clicked back
into place for me. And plenty of power as well.
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it was my my cup of
tea. Yeah, as he says, as he.
As he's sloping away there, Tim, finally moving on to your
current role. Obviously been a commensator for
Ice TV. Do you still get the same
enjoyment out of it now? Obviously I know it's a
different role you were racing before, but you, like you said
earlier, you've been in the panic for such a long time now.
You've seen people come, you've seen people go.
I see that you still get enjoyment out of it or I get
that impression listening to you.
Do you, do you still get the buzz out of it?
Do you still enjoy being there, being around everyone doing the
commentary? I'm getting excited.
Yeah, 100%. You know, I mean, you know, I've
done a few pieces already about previewing this year's season
and every year there was something to be excited about.
You know, there really is, you know, this year there's some new
well, obviously people like Rob half has come back into the
championship and fascinated to see how he gets on.
You know, he's in a good team with Josh Cookie, the team and
Andrew Watson. So he's got some great
teammates. So Speedworks could be in for a
Goodyear accelerate with with Tom Ingram.
You know, they they've done a fantastic job.
Accelerate, keep, see if they can keep up the challenging, the
progress W Surrey Racing of of done some really good
development work on that BMW. It's got a new front end on it,
it's got some new aeros, that new intake, revised engine.
The drivers are absolutely eulogizing about how good the
car feels and that's Jake and Colin Turkinson.
Both say this feels like a a really good car.
They haven't got the same tire problem that they've had
previous years with the front end.
So, you know, I'm expecting them to be really competitive.
And of course, you know, we know that Alliance racing with the
Napa Fords just do a brilliant, brilliant job.
So there's lots of there's lots of car developments that could
change the the way things go. There's some interesting new
drivers and driver team relationships to to follow.
There's the new rules with increased hybrid, which look
like they're going to actually make some difference this year
as opposed to in previous years and the new qualifying schedule.
So we've come in and I've got lots to be excited about.
I'm fascinated to see how all that pans out and what it means
for the racing. So you know, I'm genuinely
excited. I'm genuinely looking forward to
the first race and and that isn't that isn't a pretence.
I absolutely love it and and I'll be fascinated to see how it
plays out. I'd like to thank Tim for
spending some of his valuable time with us this evening on
Stories from Super Touring. Tim, thank you so much.
You're more than welcome. Enjoyed.
It meanwhile, we'll be back next week where we'll be joined by
former BTCC commentator Barry Nutley to look back at the very
entertaining wet meeting at Fruxton in 1997.
Tim, we mentioned it briefly in the In the Trap just then.
That was a very nearly win for you and Peugeot.
Good memories of that weekend. Yeah, definitely another one of
like, like so near yet so far moments in motorsport.
Really. We can all do a book on Mozart
bet as well. Definitely.
So until then, goodbye.