Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of Stories from Super Touring.
And this week it's a special one.
We've got a special anniversary today.
We're recording on the 10th of September 2025 and it's 30 years
to the day that our guest won the 1995 British Touring Car
Championship. He's a good friend of the pod,
John Cleland. Welcome back to STORIES from
Super Touring. Yeah, thank you.
I'm really pleased to be here. My I cannot believe that it's 30
years ago when I won that championship.
It just, it really seems like yesterday, the memories of there
that just everything about it keeps coming back into my mind.
The, the, the period in Super Touring in those days, what it
was all about. It was great time, great times,
but 30 years, goodness knows where that's gone.
Yeah, Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it, to think
that that 30 years has passed since you weren't.
And of course, it's more than 30 years since the start of that
season at Donnington. And I'd love to know, we're
going to look back today at that 1995 season as a whole, but I'd
love to know at the start of that season, how confident were
you? Did you feel you had a realistic
shot at the title? Yeah, and it goes back to the
year before 94. Ray Malik ran the Vauxhall team.
I knew what Ray was capable of. We'd done a lot of testing.
And I, I do remember, and we may have even touched on this once
before we, we were testing the show circuit at Silverstone to
homologate the spoilers, the front splitters and the rear
winds for, for, for all of the world, for a Cavalier.
And it's an Opal, as they called it in other countries.
And then the, the, the drawing board had said one thing and we
put that on and I went out and did some laps and came back and
they put the other one on and I did some laps.
And I'm a driver. I'm not an engineer and I don't
pretend to be an engineer, but the one thing I can do is
consistently ringing lap after lap after lap within.
And you know, and Billy said I came to each other.
So if there's a change, good or bad, that's been made to the
car, I can not only tell them about it when I come back in,
but they'll be able to see a clock because I am was really
consistent in that area. So the, the wing I think was
from Splitter line that that Ray refined.
The best one was the one that I discarded according to all the
figures and everything, as I remember.
No, no, no, it's it's spoiler A and I said, well, actually, you
won't put back on again. We'll try again.
But I think Spoiler B is the better one.
And ultimately that was the one we ran.
And that was the car that won everywhere in the world that it
ran, it won races. And that was just, I think one
of many places we tested. I think the very first time we
tested was at Nogado in, in southern France had done in, in
winter months. It was cold.
I remember we had to wait till, you know, mid morning till the
frost had come off the track. And I think we were tired
testing, but we were also testing James Tolson because
James had joined the team. And I remember my engineer guy
called Phil Barker, It was quite hard and him and I had a great
relationship because he'd swear at me and I'd swear back.
And we got on really well. And they stopped Tomo out in the
car in the Garo. And it's quite there's, there's,
there's lots of tight, trusty kind of bits in one part per
track. And jeez, there's a left foot
breaker and he came in after one of his first runs and the thing
was on fire. All of the brakes were on fire.
Everly was rooted and fell back. I said to him, you little twat,
if you keep destroying all the brakes, you're never going to
drive that car. Quite to Jing busting the tears
and ran off because he'd never had anybody talk to him like
that. Before, Yeah, yeah.
And that was the introduction to Welcome to Vauxhall.
But that was once we did lots of testing was we tried all sorts
of things and there was nothing really there to compare to.
Was it another UK team there? I think Will Hoy was there with
a sports car and the TTN guys were there with Alphas and Opals
and stuff. But it wasn't until we really
got back to Brands Hatch for I think the first official took a
test of the year and that was probably that that might have
been the thirsty or whatever it was before weekend's race.
And I remember getting in the car and doing two or three laps
bed them and I came in and I said the dash is not working
because we're on the dash is API system.
Yeah. And I use I use corner X to
speeds on. I could remember when we come
back in, I would say right it was doing 99 miles an hour
there, 50 miles an hour there, 101 mile an hour there.
And I could remember all of that.
We'd write it down. So we'd work on that station and
all of a sudden that would drop by two or three miles an hour
and whatever I mean, I said to Phil Barker, the dash is not
working properly. I'm not getting Caius and I'm
not getting several times. And he said, yeah, we'll we'll
worry about that later. Just go drive the car.
So I went out again and went right about did another 5 or 6
laps and came in and he said, what's that Like I said, yeah,
that's pretty good. I think it'll be all right.
He said what are your fastest buy?
About 3/4 of a second. This was on the the little
track. Yeah, he says your fastest buy,
but four quarters of a second, see, and I'm like, wow, right.
Well, I'm not even trying yet. So as the day progress, we just
got better, the car got better. We dialled the end, we played
with all sorts of things and I'm the first to admit Brands Indie
for me is a bogey track. It's a bit like No Kill.
These are my 2 bogey tracks. They're both to some extent
quite technical and I'm clearly not that technical because I was
never any good at any of the two of them.
You get out on the Grand Prix track at Brands Hatch, I've won
races there and I've been really quick there, but on the little
track not quite. So anyway, we get to the end of
the day. I think we worked fastest from
memory and I said to to the team, but we were having a
debrief. I said that's fine, wash it,
Polish it, don't do anything else to put it in the truck and
bring it to Donington and we're going to win this championship.
And it was literally as simple as that.
I was so confident when I was watching the Reynolds and the
Volos and the Alphas and everything else.
It was out there. We could do things without
Cavalier without really trying that hard.
It was such a nice car to drive that what what a lot of people
drive by early touring cars would have made some money and
they they've got them now and they'll watch them on telly or
they played the game in them and all that.
And they say, oh great, you know, I'm really driving a flat.
Well, actually, if you're driving a flat out, then you'll
be coming back in and your eyes will be installed because when
you drive these things on the edge, right on that edge they
are, they're going to bite me all the time.
The Cavalier was no different, but it just had a nice feel to
it and it didn't matter whether it was Brian's Hatch,
Donnington, Silverson, Grand Tree, it didn't matter.
Real Wet, Wet or dry, we would do very small adjustments to the
car and the car was great. It wasn't like you'd be throwing
multiple roll bars at it or springs or up and down in the
graph on the dampers and things like that.
It wasn't right back. The car was good out the truck
and then we'd tweak it and you play the candors and you play
with right eye. You give it a better rake.
And I've said to you once before that for some of the the high
speed tracks we would balance the car like Silverstone Grand
Prix or Throxton, We'd balanced it by winding the rear windows
up or down. Yeah, that was how we would
balance the back of the car. So it was such an ace car.
After that first day at Brands, I was convinced nobody was going
to beat us and I was already that confident.
So and then when we got to Donington and I think I was 1st
on the, I think I was in Pool or second and right there was the
other be around for race one. It was too.
And I went to Ladbrokes who were doing the on soccer bathing and
I'd gone to them. I got somebody else to go
because it was illegal for me to bet on my spill.
I got someone else to go and get a bet on the way.
I'd done it if I won both races. I was on 50 grand that day for
winning both races and I won the first one and.
John Cleland is going to have a career win #10 for 24 juicy
Championship points. He weaves delightedly across the
line, takes the Chequers bag. And Rydell was second and then
he was first and I was second in the second race.
And being a Volvo dealer, I always joke to my boss at
Vauxhall that now maybe have to let that kind of want to race up
to because I'll, I'll sell some amount of cars next week if that
thing wins the race. And of course, Ricard wins the
second race of the year and come second very close to it.
And my governor said to me, so you let it win.
That's I don't know what it went.
I was trying my nutsaw. I said met with that and I went
in my overall pocket and approved a betting slut.
And I said, look, I bet on myself to win both these races.
And had I done it, I'd have got 50K right?
And OK man. And that was how that was how
confident I was that that was going to work.
And as it turned out, what was the There was 25 races that year
and I was in the podium 17 times.
A bad return. And I won six races and there
was a period in the middle of the year where I won four of
them back-to-back. Yes, that's right.
Yeah. And I think that's what I did.
I think I won two at Donington, one in the brand's Grand Prix in
the pissing ring. Yeah.
And then won it Silverson, the British Grand Prix in the
pissing ring. Yeah, almost 4 races, yeah.
And that's really, I think, what cemented the championship for me
and it gave me that rude stability to go into the back
half of the season and not not having to win each race.
So so you left that first meeting John, as you said, you
had a win and a second place didn't have 50K in your pocket
sadly. But you then went to Brands
Hatch, where it didn't go quite as well, sadly for you.
That's an understatement. McClelland is off into the
craggle trap. There'll be craggle everywhere
in that Vauxhall. Hi John, the new who you are off
indeed and out of the car. Yeah, I mean, nice gentleman Tim
Harvey continues to say that it was the red Scottish mist, but
it wasn't that at all. It was played as simply, I was
in a position in the first race to to get that of an result and
I think I I went up through the bit, the back of the pets, the
left and right into clear ways and a bit ambitious, fell off
the road as it bumped across the grass.
What I didn't realise was that it had not to break Union off,
loosen the brake union on the on the front brakes and I got back
away. I don't know why if I was
thinking because I was already the best part of the lap down
and it was pointless. I got back on and hustling down
towards paddock on that lap when I hit the brakes and I only had
bike brakes and it fell off the road.
So not my best weekend. So having gone from a great
weekend at Donington where we could do no wrong to royally
screwing up at Brian's Hodge, we to hit the reset button and just
say, right, forget that, you know, end of let's just get back
to get back to normal, you know? Yeah, big shunt that second one
it. Was it was It looked big, but it
didn't structurally damage anything.
I never structurally damaged anything on that car all year.
It needed a bumper or it needed a wing in your or things like
that. But there was nothing really
that I think I finished all the races that year other than these
two. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. So I don't think there was an
awful lot of damage. It just, it was cosmetic, but we
weren't getting anywhere. And I can't actually remember
what happened in the second race, but we left here with my
tail between my legs. Worse than that, I suppose the
Volvers got an result which made it worse for me, but never mind.
And then when she went right, what's next?
Where we then? And I can't remember where we
went after that. After that was Thruxton was a
from, it was, it was a momentous day for your teammate actually,
because James James took his first win.
That's right. What sort of relationship did
you 2 have over the course of that year?
Because obviously you'd been teammates with your very good
friend and fellow car salesman Jeff Allen for many years before
that. It was quite a change for you, I
guess. Yeah, I listen as James and I
get on really well today. At the time James was a young 19
year old kid. I think coming in he he came
from a very wealthy background. His dad had I think sold off a
lot of a pig farm and built a new village and James appeared.
I remember him appearing at Donington in the Hugo Boss three
piece suit when everybody else was dressed.
You know, it's like, come on, James, what are you up to?
But the good thing about having him there, being a 1919 and I
was for something. All the V girls would come
chasing him and they would bring their mothers and their mothers
were more my age. That was a good thing about
having James. He's a teammate.
There was no two ways. He was quick.
He was very quick. And he we, we shared
information. We did share information.
We worked together. He had his own ideas about what
he would do. He was a heavy, heavy left foot
breaker. Interestingly, the guy that
everybody talks about has been one of the best Super Touring
drivers of of that year is Alan Menu.
And Alan didn't left foot break. No.
Alan was a right foot breaker. I never left foot break in all
the time I raced cars I never felt despite painting out a
colour panty Aricola telling me that he was going to teach me
how to do it properly and it would get me a second a lot.
I said no it won't so well no bother.
But it was never going to get me a second a lot anyway.
Go back to James. James was was good.
He was fast. He was.
We would bounce off each other for sure.
And he was maybe a little impetuous and thrusting.
The first time I saw him was when he was driving the Peugeot
at 1st. And he must have been 94.
That's right. Yeah.
And I was rattling on with the Cavalier and I looked in the
mirror. Whatever was behind me some
distance back, I wasn't dropping it.
And it turned out it was James in that old shitty Peugeot.
So the kids Got Talent, always had talent and a little
impetuous. Steal the lawn by his dad was of
quite vociferous and lots of things, but unfortunately James
would get to North Hill and have the mother and father of all
accidents, and it was after that that he never really was quite
the same again. I don't think he finished the
season. I think no, he didn't finish.
No, he didn't. We create Jeff in it from North
Hill because that was quick to pull him in.
And then we brought Mike Briggs across because I'd shared Briggs
his car with him years before Kehlani at an international race
there. So I knew him, I knew what he
was capable of and he would dial into the car immediately because
he'd been racing because of the season, the way it works, so the
weather. He'd already won the
championship in South Africa. He was doing nothing anyway and
he he come across the back us up.
So yeah, I mean, it was good. But the relationship to go back
to that with James, it was fine. It was a little tetchy
sometimes, yeah. But he was 19.
He wanted to set a world alight. He wanted to win the British
Stone Cup championship. He wanted to win every race he
he entered. That was the bad thing.
I mean, he was he was capable of doing it and ultimately did.
But he just had an impetuosity about him that he he needed to
just calm down a little bit. It's the two bulls, the young
bull and the old bull in the in the field job, you know.
Yeah, yeah. Let's just calm down a bit.
Yeah. So obviously you left Thruxton,
you had a podium finish there, went to Silverstone, Alton Park,
you were very rarely off the podium, your third, second,
third and then. Came a meeting at Brands Hatch,
which I think I was fair, it's fair to say was the wettest ever
British touring car meeting I've ever seen.
I don't. For example, they wouldn't race
in those sorts of conditions now.
It would be deemed too dangerous and too treacherous.
No, I think, I think that's true.
And I think that are you talking about the one where we all got a
roasting in here with it? Yeah, that was the classic well
and opening his mouth again. And I, I generally, I always
pray myself in, in thinking before I open my mouth and
there's a lot of times people will say, no, you didn't.
Well, I generally always did because I generally do it for
effect, for the press, for the TV, to get coverage for the
brand that I was paid, paid by, and also to enhance my own
reputation. However, we all got an absolute
roasting. I think I was on pool or
thereabouts. I can't actually remember.
I wasn't on pool. No, I was.
No, I was actually felt on the grid.
Yeah, but on the on the start of the race, I think it was red
flag three times. Maybe something rolled.
I can't remember. There were two rollers.
Ricard rolled the Volvo and Tim Sugdan rolled his Toyota as well
at the race. And Pierre Armani got us all out
in front of the the old grandstand.
It's no longer there. That's huge, big of a
grandstand. And he finger wagged us like the
schoolmaster just absolutely roasted us.
And if there was one more red flag, there'd be no racing for
the day. And, you know, we'll be having a
different conversation. So we're all right.
OK, so we get in the cars, off we go.
And we I win the race. And in the press conference
afterwards, the question was asked, you know, that was
atrocious idea. How did you manage to stay on
the island? And I said, yeah, well, these
things are difficult to weigh 1000 kilos and weigh 950 kilos
in our case. And I said there, there's no
weight in the back of the car. And they dance around.
And in conditions like that there, there's somethings about
hard to hang on to. But Pierre seems to think that
we were crushing into each other deliberately.
Well he's on drugs if you think so.
And of course the next morning that the Red Talk newspapers
had, John Cleland accuses Clark at the course of being on drugs.
So I had to phone up Pierre the following morning after my boss
at Vauxhall came on and gave me a roasting.
I had to phone up here and apologise and say that that
wasn't what was meant, it was a rather tongue in cheek off the
cough remark. I wasn't suggesting for a moment
he was on drugs and his reply to that was he says, well actually
was about. He says I do go to Amsterdam
quite a lot so I'm not actually sure what he was in fairing
there. However, that was one of the
wettest releases I've ever had but so satisfying to win the
race. And if I remember, James was
second right on my bumper at the end of the race, but at no
stage. Yes, he was, yeah.
At no stage was he told to back off, at no stage was I told to
let him through on at no stage that I radio and say tell him to
to offer my butt. It was, we never had team
authors and it was just we were there to work for manufacture,
to get the manufacturers and we didn't win the manufacturers
award that year. I won the championship.
Renault won it probably because James had his accident and we
brought in a couple of, they weren't quite as familiar with a
car. So because of that we didn't
amass enough points to win the manufacturers award, which was
really frustrating. But we didn't crush in each
other. Probably we didn't do anything
that was going to jeopardise the race win and and we never had
that situation. It's the same.
We never had team orders. No giver whispered in my ear on
the radio. You got to let James shoe or
whisper and James here leave John alone.
No listen, no two ways, as the chant of James hadn't had the
accident not killed and he was trailing me by the time we got
to three or four races from the end, then I have no doubt that
we would have been having a slightly different conversation.
Yeah. And and these things depend
about on whether you're signed up for the following year or you
know, what kind of the contract and all of those things.
But we know had that it never happened.
My 1 favourite picture from that meeting is obviously of Pierre
on the start line giving you you you.
You're rollicking and you're all very Stony faced you you can see
you you can see James. You can see all you know
everyone else has stood there and giggling away like a little
schoolboy is is jam Piero Simone.
It's it's a great picture, but he probably.
He probably didn't understand any of the pierrimony he was
saying. That's probably why we're
Biggle. He's true.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because Jean Pierre's grasped for the English language was
certainly better than my grasp of Italian, but he but he wasn't
fluent in English, so he probably didn't understand the
the schoolboy nature of what was just happening.
But yeah, I mean that that win, that Brands started a series of
four wins in a row. You moved on to Donnington,
which has always been a strong circuit for you.
In fact, is there a specific reason why Donnington's always
seem so successful for you? I've always won there.
It doesn't matter whether it was in production cars, Thunder
salons and I've always won and going well there.
And I found a lane which some of the latest as Sutton found this
lane a couple or so years ago out of Mclean's, out of Corpus
and on the inside there and it's much, much faster.
And I'm not saying that's the answer.
It's just a smooth track. It's pretty brave down the
hills, the old hairpin and it just flows.
And when you get the fluoride, it's just perfect.
But again, I came on and stopped there because one of the wet
races that we had there, I was interviewed by the TV and I
said, well, this track is treacherous when it's wet.
I said because all the planes flying into and E Midlands
Airport are dumping fuel all over the track.
And the following morning the man in charge of East Midlands
Airport phoned me up and gave me a freaking Roseman.
Our planes don't drop air fuel. All right.
OK, stop it. But what should the excuse for
the tribe be? Saddam.
Strawberry way, you know. But I don't know.
It's just, it's got a lovely feel.
It doesn't matter if it's the Grand Prix tribe, if it's the
the little tribe, if you go by, it's in 94.
The World Cup was there and from the 2nd row of the grid I LED
that race on the first start, right down to the beer can and
then up to the left hand or to come back onto pitch straight
when Taquini and Piero decided to pinball me off the track.
Yes, so I'd always done well at Donnington regardless of the
configuration of the track and it's just one of my favourite
tracks even though. You mentioned that line.
I remember we we digressing a little bit, but just just to
mention it on the coverage at Donnington in 98, that famous
race with Mansell that you won you Charlie Cox actually comment
mentioned that at the time he said something.
Look at that line. You can see you can feel the
group. You can see it and you could you
were just flying past these other other drivers and other
cars and you could physically see the the increased level of
grip you had there. So it's interesting that that.
Not everyone's trusted because it's not the ideal lane, it's
not how you would draw the line for the corner.
But I certainly figured it a couple of years ago and and he
was doing the same thing right down the inside of people.
Perfect. Yeah, so you, you, you take the
double at Donnington, there's that great shot of you holding
both the trophies aloft on the on the podium, which I've
always, I've always thought is great.
And then we get to the British Grand Prix support meeting.
Again, another wet race. And, and again, a wet race such
that they maybe wouldn't start the race today.
It was so wet. And the guy, the, the two books
that I think from memory and I was up against was Will Hoy in
the Renault and Paul Radisich in the Mondeo.
And Paul and I, I think it was something about the first lap
we, I went for a move which I didn't get to pull off, but I
got right alongside him as he turned in and my wheel got a big
gash in it, which I didn't realise it.
It's only it took a chunk out of the wheel and it's just as well
I didn't know what had happened because I then go on and I win
the race. And in the, the part fair me
afterwards, my engineer, he said, well, what's the story
with the wheel that I told the other way?
They had a look at it and I have no idea how the wheel didn't
park company with a tyre, how the tyre didn't deflate.
And my engineer gave me that wheel because it was my birthday
on that day as well. And my engineer gave me the
wheel and he autographed it and said happy birthday.
And I brought it home and for about 5 years it lay here with a
piece of glass on the top of it as a table and it kept pressure.
It never lost pressure. So these make these mixoons hang
on to the pressure. And even though I've taken a
chunk outside of the wheel, somehow it finished the race.
I won the race, but it was bloody close.
I think Will could have won the race that day, but he lost the
wiper on the first lap. I had no wiper and sitting in
the slipstream of two or three other people and with no wiper
it was nigh on impossible for him to be as game as he would
like to have been. Cool.
So I think had Will had a wipe for that day, I may not have won
that race, but there's nothing better.
There's only one thing better, the one in the British Grand
Prix support race and that would have been to win my own home
Grand Prix at Knock Hill and, but sadly I've never been any
good up there. So I've never had, I've won one
race and all the time I've raced there.
But to to finish that day first at the British Grand Prix, with,
I don't know, 150,000 people for the Grand Prix still in
attendance, still hanging on despite the weather, to watch
the touring car race at the end of the day was something.
Else there's a brewery it's a cracking race as well as you
said you will and and Paul really went at it.
It was a it was a we we shared a clip of it a couple of years ago
and even to this day it's still reshared.
Look at this great battle look at this it's a fantastic it's
it's one of the one of the great touring car battles.
It's a wonderful race. Well.
Never mind Dad, because look at the way John Trelland is going.
He's right up alongside, he's going for it.
He sold him a dummy, he's going through on the inside of
Woodcoat and he does it superb and Hoy goes through.
So Cleland leads Hoy up to second, Radishes down to 3rd as
they finish the lap. I, I, that was a, that was a
great weekend really, because I, I also was driving a poor Super
Cup, OK Carrera in a Porsche Super Cup race.
That which was the support to all the Grand Prix and I had
been taking it to vice site to test the car prior to the Grand
Prix. And it took a fair bit of
convincing my bosses at Vauxhall to let me do it because it was a
rear wheel drive, rear engine sports car.
And I've got a front wheel drive, front engine, saloon car
and did the really think that I could drive both properly on the
weekend when it was so important to win the championship?
Yeah, of course. I convinced them that I'd be OK
and I can't remember when I finished in that race, but that
was pretty brutal because the they did like to rub each other
than Porsche lads. But then it got better because
prior to the, the, the, the Grand Prix on the Thursday, I
think of the Friday, I got strapped to the top of a Tiger
Moth and did a lap of Silverstone on the Crunchy
plane. And I, I was miked up and did
cameras in the wings of this Tiger Mollus.
And we took off from to Weston Airfield just down the street
from the Grand Prix and we flew the track and I commentated as
we flew along at the old try along the old start finish line.
Now we're coming into Cox. This this is a first year corner
for us and we're doing about 110 miles an hour here.
And then we're down through the Migates, Beckett's complex,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the, the guy, the pilot took
me absolutely on the track the way it was about, I don't know,
I'm going to say 100 feet off the track.
And then it was great. It got, I think it was got a 55
or 6 pages in auto sport the following week.
And I had forgotten to tell my wife that I had stood on the top
of this Tiger Moth until she saw the pictures of me and the girl
that had been teaching me to what to do with the wing
walking. Yeah.
So that didn't that didn't be done particularly well.
Roma. So it was a good all in weekend
Tiger North and Thursday. And it was testing qualifying
for the Porsche, testing, qualifying for the the the
touring car race. And then yeah, to win it at the
end of it and to the winner brace Grand Prix event was
something special. The Championship then moved on
to not hill. They've already hinted that
you've never had the greatest of records at Not Kill.
It's the only place that year, apart from Brands, where you
didn't finish, where you didn't step on the podium at all, and
you've got 1/5 and 1/6. Can you explain it or is it just
one of those things? If I could explain it, I'd of
going on to win more races there.
There was a guy called Ian Forrest who was the head driving
instructor up there long before Gordon Shedden was on the sea.
Yeah, he used to raced an M3 early days, I think, didn't he?
Yeah, in the series, yeah. He erased an M3 that's right in
the championship and when I got there, Ian would take me, right?
You see, right. You're aiming for this and
you're doing that. You're doing this.
And my teammate Jeff Allen used to kick my butt there every
single time we got in a car. However, we got to branch Ice
and I would kick his butt as well.
So it was itsy bitsy, but for some reason I could never get
it. I just couldn't pull it
together. Maybe you have to monster the
kerbs that not kill. Yeah.
And maybe wasn't good at monstering kerbs.
I'm I'm quite mechanically sympathetic and maybe it was
that, I don't know, I've really no idea.
But it wasn't for the one to try and it wasn't for the changes to
the car and we just did everything.
But I couldn't get it. I could not get it to work.
Don't know, it was weird. And No Kill what a sponsor they
had. I had no kill racist circuit on
the visor of my crash helmet through all of my touring car
career, even when I went to Bathurst in Australia, I always
run no Kill racing circuit on my crush helmet.
So I was. They were loyal to me.
I was loyal to them. But could I get the track?
No. Could I hear?
It's a it's a funny 1, isn't it? That you say Jeff thrashed you
that Knockhill normally, and of course he joined you.
As we said earlier, James had that monster shunt and I've only
ever seen the stills of that crash, but monumental.
And when James came on the show himself, he said that he still
suffers to this day from from the injuries that that were
caused. He still doesn't have the sight
and perfect son. James has got a very small brain
and he was rather than a bit inside a lot of his head.
So. So that's what was causing the
problem. I'm only kidding.
I'm already. I wait to see him.
He went to a private hospital in Edinburgh and I went down to
visit him. And because of the rattling that
his head had taken. Yeah.
Between there and May, we had ears on these Ricardo seats.
So that that constant rattling about like that as the car was
having its accident, his eyes were black.
He looked as though he'd done 20 rounds with Mike Tyson.
Yeah, I mean, he was just black and blue.
And it took him a long time. And as as you say, I'm not even
sure that today he's fully recovered from that because it
was a monster of an accident. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it the, the
stills are horrific. Obviously it was a test
enshrined so there isn't footage of it.
Probably for the best, but awful, awful shunt and.
He was a lucky boy. He's that probably was the
biggest shunt he's ever had in his life, even considering he
did a season so a rallying. I don't think he had an act that
big, human. No, no, it was a proper nasty
one that way it was. But you, you, you head back into
more successful stomping grounds.
You're back at Brands Hatch this time in the dry for once this
season because they seem to always be reigning at Brands
Hatch in 95. But this is where it got quite
tense because you and Volvo and Ricard, who had a little bit of
a touch in both races and it got really quite very intense.
It was the the the the famous quote from you Vauxhall Din
designer like that Volvo designer like that and then.
The slight touch in race 2 where the Ricard is adamant that you
you nudged him and yeah, it it all got very.
Out of Graham Hill Bend up to 30s John Cleland is going for
it. He's right up behind and and out
spins right now. Now was there contact there?
I do not know. I couldn't see.
Ricard, Ricard needs to watch some more NASCAR because that
was drafting and all I did was release all the air from
underneath the back of his car. And unfortunately, by me doing
that, he spun. I mean, I don't know what he's
talking about, but you know, that did develop into something
quite, quite big because Tom Walkinshaw, who was running the
Volvo team and Tom was not true. He knew how do you could take
the legalities all the way. And I think, I'm not sure they
protested me that day, but they had blown up photographs from
virtually every photographer at every angle from clear ways just
to see if they could get something.
And of course there was no paint on my car and there was no paint
on the back as care. But it was, I think it was just
a draft. I think there was a gust of wind
that gone. Of course.
So that was in the second race and in the first race going up
to Druids, Ricard very clearly nudged the back of you and and
it relinquished the lead to Will Hoy.
Now you and I have talked about Will many times and I know he's
obviously you, you, you two were very, very close.
But it did lead to Will winning his first race for, for for a
few years. And I know at the time I was
glad that Will was able to sort of give one back to the doubters
who said that maybe he'd lost a bit or, you know, in fact, he
went on a good run. He won 3 or 4 the last couple of
races and showed that he still was a real talent and a top top
racer. Definitely, definitely.
Yeah, not two ways, but I mean that that was about the point of
the season where it started to get a bit tricky.
It was done to Renault, Volvo and then ourselves with Oxall
and the we were going to listen. It was important.
We had to win the championship, drivers championship,
manufacturers championship, but there was no two ways that in
those days, you know, you just have to look at the cars that
drove into the car parts for the spectators and they were
supporting their own brand by what they were driving to and
from the tracks. So to win a race on the Sunday
undoubtedly helped to give the car more credibility, you know,
on the Monday, more like, you know, that's what it was.
That's, that's how it worked. I mean, I, I, I continue to say
this, that if it weren't for Colin Mccree and Pro drive,
Subaru would still be a shitty little machine for taking bills
of hay down the field for farmers.
Absolutely. If it wasn't for Colin winning
rallies globally, Subaru would not have had the following that
it has. Yeah.
So I think Carl's winning races, winning rallies, absolutely.
And enhance the image of the brand, you know.
But it got to the technical stage with Volvo being run by
Tom Walkinshaw, Renault being run by the Williams team and the
the the ourselves, the Vauxhall. It then got we got out of brands
and then we went to Snetterton and it got really messy.
Yes. Yeah, I don't know what you
remember of Sutton, but I've got some things that I'm not even
sure you know about. Probably, possibly not.
It was that really horrible day where I can't remember which way
around it was, but it was wet and you either had slicks on but
so did Ricard, or you had wets on and so did Ricardo.
Anyway, be both of you had the wrong tyre on and you were both
falling down the field. We decided that regardless of
the weather that we we would put on whatever.
Regardless of what I thought, yeah, I wanted to do, we would
put on what Renault and what Volvo fitted to Alan Menu and to
Ricard Rydell. Yeah.
And that's how what? And that's why we ended up all
falling down the order. Yes.
And then I think the second race was dry.
Yeah, I think. And I was.
I thought that you were. Third.
Yeah. You were third in the second
race, Yeah. But it but it got somewhat
complicated because and you wouldn't have to be Einstein to
work out which Volvo driverless was.
But on the grid before I think the start of the first race, I
think it was it was before the start of the first race this
Volvo driver had said to his engineer, have you dealt with a
camera? Yes, we have.
All right, OK, fine. And the race started and I think
menu I think broke down from memory or something like that.
And I was way back in 13th I think.
So this particular Volvo never got anywhere near me but between
the two races Mike Nicholson who was the team manager for
Vauxhall, his wife Marie worked for BHP who did all the TV stuff
yesterday and they came into our motorhome and said lads got to
have a problem here. And one of the Volvos has been
set the task of removing either a Renault or a Vauxhall, and
we've got footage to prove it. And they had the footage from
the bumper Cam on this particular Volvo.
And you can see this mechanic's face with a thumb covered in
grease down putting it over the lens of the camera.
And the driver in question completely forgot that was a
cap. There was a voice recorder
inside the car as well. Ironically, the engineer that
was running him that day became my engineer the following year.
Malaks. So I do know the whole story.
OK. And TWR will find I think 50
grand for that. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a big
thing. I don't think it, I can't
remember really, but I can't remember if I hit the press, hit
the papers or anything. But it was clearly we are going
to try and win this championship come what we.
Yeah, yeah. Now you mention it does ring a
bell, but not to any great detail.
Yeah, it it's, it got quite controversial at that point
then. Yeah, it could say we just, we
decided that we were going to go with exactly what the two others
were doing, right or wrong. That was it makes sense.
MM Briggs was in there to take points for not, not to take
anybody out, no, but to swallow up points from some of the
others. And what we've done, mate, was
staying with me in Scotland and we'd rented a a little Cessna to
fly down from Edinburgh to Snetterton and land on the back
straight. We've got to that point and
there wasn't many races to go, I think.
Was there really two to go? After.
After, Yeah. After Sneleton.
Yeah, 2. Theoretically, if I didn't
struggle to, the championship was made.
So we knew that we'd come out as Sneleton Health and and Briggs.
He got involved in a bit of a FRACA during the race and I've
got those papers, this little Cessna on the back street
getting warmed up. I've I've said to the girls in
the hospitality could you do 2 state sandwiches and maybe a
picnic for the flight on the way home and give me a bottle of red
wine and two glasses. So Briggsie got dragged into the
clerk of the courses office. Now we're running at daylight
and I'm on the phone of Briggs. He's saying have you sorted this
yet? He said no, no, I'm sitting in
the waiting room. He said I don't know what's
going to happen. I said well I know what's going
to happen, I'm going to piss off and leave you and I'm going to
eat your sandwich and I'm going to drink all your Whiting and
you'll have to find your way back on the Scotland.
No, no, no, no, don't do that, don't do that.
So now I'm now I'm on the phone to Norwich airport to find out
if they would let us fly from Snetterton to Norwich.
Then somebody would get a quick car and take Briggs E up to
Norwich to let him on board the flight back home to Edinburgh.
So the pilot by this thing is getting a bit twitchy.
So he's on the phone to Norwich saying we, you know, can can we
land here? Norwich doesn't have night
flights in those days. They didn't have any lights at
all. So it was like we we have got to
get might breaks in this area pronto, pronto.
So I said, mate, just admit it was your fault, whatever the
fuck it was, just admit it and just get here.
So I think he got, I think he got admonished.
And the next thing that's a car comes up alongside the plane,
all four wheels locked up. Briggs.
He jumps over these race kit, clambers in the Cessna and
before the front wheels off the ground.
We'd already take the car, share the box.
I'm going to say we got cold with this.
John, you, you, you, you said there just now you've got 2
meetings left. Getting a bit controversial with
Volvo drivers doing what they're doing and how.
How is the pressure? Yeah, the pressure is building.
Yeah. There's no two ways it's, you
know, I, I, it's built from 1992 till that.
So it's taken me three years to to try and win another
championship. Yeah, the expectation from
Vauxhall, the expectations from the team and everyone.
I know it's probably putting more pressure on myself because
I needed to be certain that I made mistakes.
But what I think I did happen was a great car, a great team,
and I knew that we were going to Alton Park and Silverstone, 2
tracks that I'm good with. I needed to buy points.
As far as I was concerned, if I had a bad Alton and I come out
with some points, then I had to seal it at Silverstone.
I still thought that all of that was possible and I was
convinced. I didn't actually think I'd
scored enough points at Alton to claim the title there with one
round to go. But yeah, I mean, there was,
there was a huge amount of pressure.
And actually I put even more pressure on myself and I'm
travelling down the road, down the M6, coming over the
Manchester Ship Canal, about half an hour from from Alton
Park on the, I'm going to say this Thursday night or whatever
it was. And I turn off onto the 50, the
M56, wherever, and I'm heading down there.
Next thing, there's a car with blue lights behind me and the
guy drives me onto the half shoulder.
So I get invited to go back and sit in this police car.
It was a plain clothes Opal. Senator Vauxhall, Senator.
Yeah, yeah, plainclothes, no markings on it, Little tiny blue
lakes in the grill. So I get in the back and
fortunately I have a driver licence with me.
And the guy said, you know why we stopped?
Yes, I think I do. I hand him a driver licence.
And he said Trump Cleland, He said are you the racing driver?
He says you'll be going to the Olton Park for the weekend.
And are you? I said, yeah, I'm sorry about
that. Yeah, own part as a local track.
He said we we can never get tickets though.
I said, oh, this is your lucky mate, I can help you there.
And he eluded his mates and the guy, he said, are you serious?
Can you get me tickets? I said, well, it will of course
depend a bit on how this conversation end.
And the guy said, well, listen, you weren't going that fast.
You were on the ship canal there at 50 mile an hour because
they're big in the ramp Rd up again.
You were a bit higher than that. But I'll tell you what we'll do.
Take it easy. Just be sensible.
I said right, I'll tell you what we'll do.
Who's coming? You 2?
Yeah. Do you need any more?
No, no, just the two of us. I said right.
Sunday morning down to the gates at Alton Park.
Get one of the the tunnelstiles there and I will leave an
envelope with tickets in it for you and you make your way to the
Vauxhall Hospitality Suite and I'll meet you there.
So the guy arrived, the two of them arrive and I said, listen,
thanks from last night by the way.
I said that was going to make my, my weekend really poor.
And I said come with me. And I said to the girls,
whatever. Then large one food drink, you
give them it all day long, just give them it.
And I took them down to the pets and I showed them the car,
introduced them to the team. And during the races, these two
guys stood in my pics on top of two spare tyres, 2 spare wheels
for my car, and watched the race with the very best passes that
money could buy. Brilliant.
And they were there and they just had an absolute ball of a
day. And to win the championship, I
was as some of the videos I think you put up, I was struck
for words. But yeah, when I got back to
meet those two lives, they said, oh, that was absolutely
fantastic. Congratulations.
We couldn't have been hearing about being.
And I said, no, that's I'm really, really appreciative what
you did the other night there. I said, I don't suppose you've
got a brother that looks after the M1 by any chance?
They're not quite a lot but you were right, there were super
blokes and they had such a good day and they watched me win that
championship. So for them that was that was
the best day of the life, I think.
Yeah. And you know, it's obviously
it's a day you won the championship.
It's a day where you won. And now we've chat.
We've chatted before, John, about this, about you, how
sometimes you felt you hadn't won the 89.
It felt like you didn't fully deserve deserve The wrong word,
maybe, but 95 meant a whole lot more to you.
Absolutely. I mean, I've said before and
I've said on many occasions when people talk about this, that for
seven years, from 1989 until 1995, I was never out of the top
four in that championship. I was either first sent the 3rd
or 4th and for seven years. So I knew how to do it.
I knew what was needed and in 89 to not win a race but to win the
championship I didn't think was fair on everybody because I'd
come the tail end of it all and, and, and, and actually did I
deserve to win it? I don't think I did deserve to
win it. It was 895 that I then realised
that the job was was good. The job was, yeah, I've done
this, I've done it the hard way. I'd come up against two big
factory teams in in Renault and Volvo, run by Formula One teams.
Yeah. And we had one.
This used car dealer from Galois Shoes had had one and taken on
some of the best drivers that's ever been in the championship
with Alan and you do Ricard Rydell and you know, people like
Will Hoy and so on and so forth. They were just it was just a
great day and I've never known that stuff for words.
But when the cameras threw in front of me that day, having
just got in the car and won the championship, I don't know what
to say. I was beat for works.
I I was about to busted the tears because I've worked so
hard and the pressure was eventually off my shoulders.
I didn't. I didn't want to bubble on the
on the telly. Yes.
No. I kind of, I kind of had to say,
well, I don't know what to say here.
I'll, I'll think about it and I'll come back.
But it was just the the relief. It was like one of these
pressure cookers. It was just a cheer relief of a
whole year's work. Yeah, and then some.
It wasn't just a year. It was the build up to it.
It was all the test thing. It was all the components that
we practised, changed, tried, altered, fiddled West and
everything. And it was just to make sure
that we were always in the right place at the right time during
night 5. And it was a wonderful season
and I, I will always look when I couldn't fondly, despite the
fact that it's that it is there years ago.
I I honestly, I have no idea where that's gone.
No, it's, it's, it's quite scary, isn't it really To think
that that's the years ago and and the season ended at
Silverstone and again, double podium to third places wasn't
quite enough to to beat Renault. As you said, driver changes
probably didn't help Vauxhall. It's a tricky question I guess.
But did that taint the season in any way that you didn't quite
get the manufacturers or? Whatever he talks about, you
know, the manufacturers is the most important thing to win.
That's bullshit. Yeah, that's blue.
Could could anybody remember the manufacturer that that one in
9190290394? Can you remember the drivers?
Yes, you're damn right you can remember the drivers, you can
remember what they were driving, but you cannot remember the
manufacturer's important to Vauxhall Ford, BMW, AR and so on
and so forth. Yes it is.
But a driver is the one you will remember, you will remember and
the only reason in Formula One you remember.
That it's the Red Bull team or it's the McLaren team.
That's plainly bloody obvious. Yeah, but it's the drivers
championship that's most important to these guys.
And whilst they they will earn squillions from winning the
team's award, absolutely squillions.
And they'll move further up the pace and so on and so forth.
There wasn't any of that. There was no prize money.
We didn't get a boat for winning the championship.
I got a trophy and that was it. As I said to you, I I wasn't
smart enough. I didn't have a manager, I
wasn't smart enough to to tyre a win bonus into the 95 season,
far less than 89. Yeah, I should have put a
massive bonus in there for winning the championship.
But I'd signed A2 year deal, 95 and 96.
So I suppose if I'd, I signed the contract in 95 or sorry, 94
from 95 and 96 before I'd even driven the car.
So I'd have been gambling. But what I should have done was
I should have put a clause and it said if I win the
championship it's worth X to me, you know, and I didn't.
I did. I didn't do that.
But that's no real complaint because I was paid to do
something I would probably have done for free.
I was lucky enough to be in an era of touring car racing that
we were all paid to do something we would have done for free.
You know, there's Formula One drivers or sports car drivers,
there's champions from every touring car series around the
world that came to play in the UK.
So it was an honour to be there. And you know, I, I was paid to
do something I loved. I was.
All I owned was a crash helmet. The workshop loaned everything
else. I got a cheque every month and
that was the end of it, you know?
Yeah, Yeah. So looking back at 95, would you
say that's your favourite year of your competitive career?
Yeah. I mean, I've had, I've had lots,
lots of fun in in lots of years. Even in this sort of the ensuing
years, the 979899 with the 888 Vauxhall, 888 Vectra, it wasn't
as successful. We still won races.
I'll remember the 98.1 because of the Mansell race at Donington
course. I think everybody will and, you
know, people remember different things about it.
I'll remember 89 because that's the first time I won the
championship. Yeah.
But I will remember 95 fondly because that meant a lot to be
gauged against some of the best. And if there's a pool that's
run, and there's been many over the years who the best tuning
car driver is, who's the one that's remembered most.
I'm proud of the fact that I still maintain that podium
possession. If it's not first, second is
third in that overall picture. Yeah, because I didn't set out
to be a professional race driver.
And I don't think I ever was a professional race driver because
I had a day job. I was running a business all of
the time that I've raced cars. Yeah, maybe had I not, I would
have gone off and the opportunity was there.
I mean, I tested sports cars. I'd actually gone and tested
NASCAR, I drew Porsche Super Cup, as I said to you.
So there were lots and lots of opportunities to do different
things. I had the opportunity to go and
drive a season, at least one season in Australia because I'd
been, I've done 30 bathos and one of the teams I drove for
over there wanted me to go and spend, you know, a season doing
their championship. But at that stage I the young
family and a business and and so on.
So was 95 the best in terms of results, in terms of visits to
the podium, in terms of trophies and balls of champagne?
Absolutely. And I will forever remember that
series. I'd remember that championship,
remember that year. But I was lucky enough to have
the good years of touring cars where there were so many
manufacturers and it was massive.
It was colossal. It was, you know, with the three
World Cups that we did. Yeah, I played.
That I pulled a sheet when I was looking for something else the
other day there the results of the first Test, the open test at
Monza for the World Cup in whatever year that I was 93. 93
Yeah, that. And there was something like 60
cars on the grid and I was fastest, never seen the place
before in my life. And I ran, I ran my finger down
the the list of people and they went on.
There must have been like a dozen that went on to do Formula
One. There'll be a dozen went on when
Malone, there was a dozen went on when multiple European
Touring Car Championships. So to be in a position to go and
represent the UK at those events was just something else.
Yeah, we, we probably didn't appreciate what we were in in
those days. We probably took it for granted
to some extent, you know? Yeah, yeah.
One final thing we'd we'd touch on now obviously coming to the
end of the season that that you won and the season that we're
looking at is did 95 potentially open any doors?
You I know we've chatted before about the fact that you had a
two year deal and you were seeing the new vector in.
So despite the fact that you had offers you a commitment to
handshake, a deal to you is a deal.
And that will remain any other offers that were on the table
that you had options for that that you obviously turned down,
but did did win in the title open any doors that that you
could have walked through had you chosen to?
Yeah, and I don't have very many regrets about what I've done in
touring cars. And I'm probably ever so
slightly regretful that I told the book from Dunlop to shove
some tyres up his ass once, because I then went on to use
them in other countries. So I've said and done some
things I probably wish I hadn't said and done.
But I signed a contract with the Vauxhall.
First time I'd ever managed to get to your deal.
I wanted security because there's a point at the middle to
the end of the year where there's lots of people trying to
steal your drive for the following year.
So I bet security was good and and so on.
I managed to get to your deal and blow me at the end of 95
before I'd got my into my 96 season.
I win the championship and the phone rang significantly.
And the one that I do, if there's a regret in my Turing
Car career is not accepting this one, which was the OD drive and
John Wickham who wanted me to drive along with Frank Mueller
in, in the collateral to take #1 to the collateral and to do
that. And I said, John, I really, I'm
flattered you, you've asked me to do this.
I have signed A2 year deal with Vauxhall.
And he said, no, don't worry about that.
We'll just put the lawyers on it.
We'll get you at that. I said, well, you probably
could. I said but when I shake
someone's hand then I I will stick by that.
I had a great relationship with the people at Vauxhall.
I had a wonderful relationship with the managing director, you
know, for many years. And the last thing I was going
to do was jump ship after I'd agreed terms.
Is that naive? Not in my book.
It's not my book, it's honour. And I, I stopped by it.
Yeah. But what that might have opened
up is Frank Bilder and Emmanuel Piero.
I had raced against them both. They're only a little bit
younger than me. And they then went on to win Le
Mans four or five times. And I just wonder if the
opportunity to have done during Castro there too, and then gone
on and done the Le Mans situation.
I don't know if that was an auction or not.
I would love to have done it. I've always ignored Ramon, but
then there was something about that.
I went to the Classic there a few years ago and absolutely
fell in love over the place and wished I'd gone out of my way to
try and find a drive there. So is there a regret that I
didn't do that yet? Probably, but there was no way
that I was going to walk away from an agreed deal with Optal,
regardless of how clever the lawyers were.
Well, that just leaves me to say thank you so much, John, for
coming to join us for 30 years since your iconic title win.
I'm sorry that it is 30 years. It's the if.
I can't quite believe it myself, but it's certainly one of the
iconic years of Super Touring and touring cars in general.
And and yeah, just thanks again for reminiscing with us today on
the show. No, it's been an honour and a
pleasure and all I knew was that 30 years ago I didn't have as
much grey here as I have today. But my memory goes back and
remembers all of those kind of things.
I don't remember spring settings and tyre pressures, but I I
remember all the good bits. But it was a fabulous time,
fabulous year to be involved in turning car racing and I watch
it with interest today. I watched people like I Sutton
and Tom Ingram and and so on and it was such an integral part of
my life for years that I will continue to watch it.
So my last dying breath, yeah, it's been a pleasure.
I've I've really enjoyed it and I will I'll continue to listen
with interest. John, you're a star.
Thanks again for for for for coming along today.
My pleasure. And of course, thank you to all
yous At Home for listening to today's episode of Stories from
Super Tory. As always, if you enjoyed this
episode, please leave a comment on the podcast app of your
choice. And we'll be back again for more
fun and games next week where we'll be looking at the first
ever BTCC race to be held at Knock Hill in 1992, where
someone called Colin McRae made their only BTCC appearance for
BMW. Until then, we'll see you next
week. Goodbye.