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Stories from Super Touring. 
Hello and welcome to this week's

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episode of Stories from Super 
Touring. 

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And this week it's a special 
one. 

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We've got a special anniversary 
today. 

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We're recording on the 10th of 
September 2025 and it's 30 years

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to the day that our guest won 
the 1995 British Touring Car 

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Championship. 
He's a good friend of the pod, 

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John Cleland. 
Welcome back to STORIES from 

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Super Touring. 
Yeah, thank you. 

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I'm really pleased to be here. 
My I cannot believe that it's 30

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years ago when I won that 
championship. 

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It just, it really seems like 
yesterday, the memories of there

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that just everything about it 
keeps coming back into my mind. 

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The, the, the period in Super 
Touring in those days, what it 

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was all about. 
It was great time, great times, 

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but 30 years, goodness knows 
where that's gone. 

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Yeah, Yeah. 
It's crazy, isn't it, to think 

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that that 30 years has passed 
since you weren't. 

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And of course, it's more than 30
years since the start of that 

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season at Donnington. 
And I'd love to know, we're 

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going to look back today at that
1995 season as a whole, but I'd 

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love to know at the start of 
that season, how confident were 

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you? 
Did you feel you had a realistic

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shot at the title? 
Yeah, and it goes back to the 

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year before 94. 
Ray Malik ran the Vauxhall team.

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I knew what Ray was capable of. 
We'd done a lot of testing. 

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And I, I do remember, and we may
have even touched on this once 

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before we, we were testing the 
show circuit at Silverstone to 

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homologate the spoilers, the 
front splitters and the rear 

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winds for, for, for all of the 
world, for a Cavalier. 

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And it's an Opal, as they called
it in other countries. 

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And then the, the, the drawing 
board had said one thing and we 

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put that on and I went out and 
did some laps and came back and 

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they put the other one on and I 
did some laps. 

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And I'm a driver. 
I'm not an engineer and I don't 

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pretend to be an engineer, but 
the one thing I can do is 

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consistently ringing lap after 
lap after lap within. 

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And you know, and Billy said I 
came to each other. 

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So if there's a change, good or 
bad, that's been made to the 

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car, I can not only tell them 
about it when I come back in, 

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but they'll be able to see a 
clock because I am was really 

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consistent in that area. 
So the, the wing I think was 

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from Splitter line that that Ray
refined. 

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The best one was the one that I 
discarded according to all the 

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figures and everything, as I 
remember. 

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No, no, no, it's it's spoiler A 
and I said, well, actually, you 

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won't put back on again. 
We'll try again. 

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But I think Spoiler B is the 
better one. 

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And ultimately that was the one 
we ran. 

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And that was the car that won 
everywhere in the world that it 

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ran, it won races. 
And that was just, I think one 

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of many places we tested. 
I think the very first time we 

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tested was at Nogado in, in 
southern France had done in, in 

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winter months. 
It was cold. 

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I remember we had to wait till, 
you know, mid morning till the 

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frost had come off the track. 
And I think we were tired 

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testing, but we were also 
testing James Tolson because 

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James had joined the team. 
And I remember my engineer guy 

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called Phil Barker, It was quite
hard and him and I had a great 

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relationship because he'd swear 
at me and I'd swear back. 

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And we got on really well. 
And they stopped Tomo out in the

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car in the Garo. 
And it's quite there's, there's,

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there's lots of tight, trusty 
kind of bits in one part per 

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track. 
And jeez, there's a left foot 

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breaker and he came in after one
of his first runs and the thing 

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was on fire. 
All of the brakes were on fire. 

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Everly was rooted and fell back.
I said to him, you little twat, 

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if you keep destroying all the 
brakes, you're never going to 

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drive that car. 
Quite to Jing busting the tears 

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and ran off because he'd never 
had anybody talk to him like 

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that. 
Before, Yeah, yeah. 

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And that was the introduction to
Welcome to Vauxhall. 

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But that was once we did lots of
testing was we tried all sorts 

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of things and there was nothing 
really there to compare to. 

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Was it another UK team there? 
I think Will Hoy was there with 

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a sports car and the TTN guys 
were there with Alphas and Opals

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and stuff. 
But it wasn't until we really 

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got back to Brands Hatch for I 
think the first official took a 

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test of the year and that was 
probably that that might have 

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been the thirsty or whatever it 
was before weekend's race. 

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And I remember getting in the 
car and doing two or three laps 

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bed them and I came in and I 
said the dash is not working 

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because we're on the dash is API
system. 

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Yeah. 
And I use I use corner X to 

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speeds on. 
I could remember when we come 

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back in, I would say right it 
was doing 99 miles an hour 

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there, 50 miles an hour there, 
101 mile an hour there. 

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And I could remember all of 
that. 

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We'd write it down. 
So we'd work on that station and

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all of a sudden that would drop 
by two or three miles an hour 

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and whatever I mean, I said to 
Phil Barker, the dash is not 

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working properly. 
I'm not getting Caius and I'm 

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not getting several times. 
And he said, yeah, we'll we'll 

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worry about that later. 
Just go drive the car. 

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So I went out again and went 
right about did another 5 or 6 

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laps and came in and he said, 
what's that Like I said, yeah, 

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that's pretty good. 
I think it'll be all right. 

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He said what are your fastest 
buy? 

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About 3/4 of a second. 
This was on the the little 

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track. 
Yeah, he says your fastest buy, 

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but four quarters of a second, 
see, and I'm like, wow, right. 

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Well, I'm not even trying yet. 
So as the day progress, we just 

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got better, the car got better. 
We dialled the end, we played 

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with all sorts of things and I'm
the first to admit Brands Indie 

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for me is a bogey track. 
It's a bit like No Kill. 

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These are my 2 bogey tracks. 
They're both to some extent 

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quite technical and I'm clearly 
not that technical because I was

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never any good at any of the two
of them. 

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You get out on the Grand Prix 
track at Brands Hatch, I've won 

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races there and I've been really
quick there, but on the little 

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track not quite. 
So anyway, we get to the end of 

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the day. 
I think we worked fastest from 

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memory and I said to to the 
team, but we were having a 

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debrief. 
I said that's fine, wash it, 

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Polish it, don't do anything 
else to put it in the truck and 

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bring it to Donington and we're 
going to win this championship. 

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And it was literally as simple 
as that. 

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I was so confident when I was 
watching the Reynolds and the 

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Volos and the Alphas and 
everything else. 

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It was out there. 
We could do things without 

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Cavalier without really trying 
that hard. 

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It was such a nice car to drive 
that what what a lot of people 

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drive by early touring cars 
would have made some money and 

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they they've got them now and 
they'll watch them on telly or 

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they played the game in them and
all that. 

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And they say, oh great, you 
know, I'm really driving a flat.

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Well, actually, if you're 
driving a flat out, then you'll 

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be coming back in and your eyes 
will be installed because when 

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you drive these things on the 
edge, right on that edge they 

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are, they're going to bite me 
all the time. 

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The Cavalier was no different, 
but it just had a nice feel to 

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it and it didn't matter whether 
it was Brian's Hatch, 

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Donnington, Silverson, Grand 
Tree, it didn't matter. 

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Real Wet, Wet or dry, we would 
do very small adjustments to the

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car and the car was great. 
It wasn't like you'd be throwing

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multiple roll bars at it or 
springs or up and down in the 

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graph on the dampers and things 
like that. 

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It wasn't right back. 
The car was good out the truck 

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and then we'd tweak it and you 
play the candors and you play 

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with right eye. 
You give it a better rake. 

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And I've said to you once before
that for some of the the high 

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speed tracks we would balance 
the car like Silverstone Grand 

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Prix or Throxton, We'd balanced 
it by winding the rear windows 

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up or down. 
Yeah, that was how we would 

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balance the back of the car. 
So it was such an ace car. 

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After that first day at Brands, 
I was convinced nobody was going

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to beat us and I was already 
that confident. 

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So and then when we got to 
Donington and I think I was 1st 

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on the, I think I was in Pool or
second and right there was the 

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other be around for race one. 
It was too. 

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And I went to Ladbrokes who were
doing the on soccer bathing and 

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I'd gone to them. 
I got somebody else to go 

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because it was illegal for me to
bet on my spill. 

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I got someone else to go and get
a bet on the way. 

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I'd done it if I won both races.
I was on 50 grand that day for 

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winning both races and I won the
first one and. 

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John Cleland is going to have a 
career win #10 for 24 juicy 

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Championship points. 
He weaves delightedly across the

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line, takes the Chequers bag. 
And Rydell was second and then 

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he was first and I was second in
the second race. 

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And being a Volvo dealer, I 
always joke to my boss at 

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Vauxhall that now maybe have to 
let that kind of want to race up

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to because I'll, I'll sell some 
amount of cars next week if that

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thing wins the race. 
And of course, Ricard wins the 

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second race of the year and come
second very close to it. 

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And my governor said to me, so 
you let it win. 

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That's I don't know what it 
went. 

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I was trying my nutsaw. 
I said met with that and I went 

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in my overall pocket and 
approved a betting slut. 

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And I said, look, I bet on 
myself to win both these races. 

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And had I done it, I'd have got 
50K right? 

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And OK man. 
And that was how that was how 

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confident I was that that was 
going to work. 

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And as it turned out, what was 
the There was 25 races that year

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and I was in the podium 17 
times. 

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A bad return. 
And I won six races and there 

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was a period in the middle of 
the year where I won four of 

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them back-to-back. 
Yes, that's right. 

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Yeah. 
And I think that's what I did. 

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I think I won two at Donington, 
one in the brand's Grand Prix in

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the pissing ring. 
Yeah. 

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And then won it Silverson, the 
British Grand Prix in the 

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pissing ring. 
Yeah, almost 4 races, yeah. 

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And that's really, I think, what
cemented the championship for me

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and it gave me that rude 
stability to go into the back 

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half of the season and not not 
having to win each race. 

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So so you left that first 
meeting John, as you said, you 

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had a win and a second place 
didn't have 50K in your pocket 

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sadly. 
But you then went to Brands 

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Hatch, where it didn't go quite 
as well, sadly for you. 

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That's an understatement. 
McClelland is off into the 

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craggle trap. 
There'll be craggle everywhere 

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in that Vauxhall. 
Hi John, the new who you are off

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indeed and out of the car. 
Yeah, I mean, nice gentleman Tim

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Harvey continues to say that it 
was the red Scottish mist, but 

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it wasn't that at all. 
It was played as simply, I was 

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in a position in the first race 
to to get that of an result and 

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I think I I went up through the 
bit, the back of the pets, the 

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left and right into clear ways 
and a bit ambitious, fell off 

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the road as it bumped across the
grass. 

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What I didn't realise was that 
it had not to break Union off, 

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loosen the brake union on the on
the front brakes and I got back 

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away. 
I don't know why if I was 

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thinking because I was already 
the best part of the lap down 

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and it was pointless. 
I got back on and hustling down 

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towards paddock on that lap when
I hit the brakes and I only had 

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bike brakes and it fell off the 
road. 

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So not my best weekend. 
So having gone from a great 

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weekend at Donington where we 
could do no wrong to royally 

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screwing up at Brian's Hodge, we
to hit the reset button and just

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say, right, forget that, you 
know, end of let's just get back

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to get back to normal, you know?
Yeah, big shunt that second one 

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it. 
Was it was It looked big, but it

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didn't structurally damage 
anything. 

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I never structurally damaged 
anything on that car all year. 

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It needed a bumper or it needed 
a wing in your or things like 

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that. 
But there was nothing really 

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that I think I finished all the 
races that year other than these

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two. 
Yeah, that's right. 

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00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,320
Yeah. 
So I don't think there was an 

221
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,480
awful lot of damage. 
It just, it was cosmetic, but we

222
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,280
weren't getting anywhere. 
And I can't actually remember 

223
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,560
what happened in the second 
race, but we left here with my 

224
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,400
tail between my legs. 
Worse than that, I suppose the 

225
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,200
Volvers got an result which made
it worse for me, but never mind.

226
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,840
And then when she went right, 
what's next? 

227
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,840
Where we then? 
And I can't remember where we 

228
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,520
went after that. 
After that was Thruxton was a 

229
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,800
from, it was, it was a momentous
day for your teammate actually, 

230
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,680
because James James took his 
first win. 

231
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,840
That's right. 
What sort of relationship did 

232
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,520
you 2 have over the course of 
that year? 

233
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,880
Because obviously you'd been 
teammates with your very good 

234
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,040
friend and fellow car salesman 
Jeff Allen for many years before

235
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,320
that. 
It was quite a change for you, I

236
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,200
guess. 
Yeah, I listen as James and I 

237
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:45,360
get on really well today. 
At the time James was a young 19

238
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,360
year old kid. 
I think coming in he he came 

239
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,520
from a very wealthy background. 
His dad had I think sold off a 

240
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,680
lot of a pig farm and built a 
new village and James appeared. 

241
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,160
I remember him appearing at 
Donington in the Hugo Boss three

242
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,080
piece suit when everybody else 
was dressed. 

243
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,480
You know, it's like, come on, 
James, what are you up to? 

244
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,440
But the good thing about having 
him there, being a 1919 and I 

245
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,720
was for something. 
All the V girls would come 

246
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,600
chasing him and they would bring
their mothers and their mothers 

247
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,480
were more my age. 
That was a good thing about 

248
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,800
having James. 
He's a teammate. 

249
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,120
There was no two ways. 
He was quick. 

250
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,680
He was very quick. 
And he we, we shared 

251
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880
information. 
We did share information. 

252
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,840
We worked together. 
He had his own ideas about what 

253
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,120
he would do. 
He was a heavy, heavy left foot 

254
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,840
breaker. 
Interestingly, the guy that 

255
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,280
everybody talks about has been 
one of the best Super Touring 

256
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,600
drivers of of that year is Alan 
Menu. 

257
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,160
And Alan didn't left foot break.
No. 

258
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,720
Alan was a right foot breaker. 
I never left foot break in all 

259
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,640
the time I raced cars I never 
felt despite painting out a 

260
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,480
colour panty Aricola telling me 
that he was going to teach me 

261
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,240
how to do it properly and it 
would get me a second a lot. 

262
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,000
I said no it won't so well no 
bother. 

263
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,440
But it was never going to get me
a second a lot anyway. 

264
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,920
Go back to James. 
James was was good. 

265
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,040
He was fast. 
He was. 

266
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,000
We would bounce off each other 
for sure. 

267
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,000
And he was maybe a little 
impetuous and thrusting. 

268
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,640
The first time I saw him was 
when he was driving the Peugeot 

269
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,720
at 1st. 
And he must have been 94. 

270
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:44,600
That's right. 
Yeah. 

271
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,920
And I was rattling on with the 
Cavalier and I looked in the 

272
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,760
mirror. 
Whatever was behind me some 

273
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,440
distance back, I wasn't dropping
it. 

274
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,960
And it turned out it was James 
in that old shitty Peugeot. 

275
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,920
So the kids Got Talent, always 
had talent and a little 

276
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,880
impetuous. 
Steal the lawn by his dad was of

277
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:17,040
quite vociferous and lots of 
things, but unfortunately James 

278
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,800
would get to North Hill and have
the mother and father of all 

279
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:28,920
accidents, and it was after that
that he never really was quite 

280
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,800
the same again. 
I don't think he finished the 

281
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,280
season. 
I think no, he didn't finish. 

282
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,640
No, he didn't. 
We create Jeff in it from North 

283
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,680
Hill because that was quick to 
pull him in. 

284
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,680
And then we brought Mike Briggs 
across because I'd shared Briggs

285
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,800
his car with him years before 
Kehlani at an international race

286
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,080
there. 
So I knew him, I knew what he 

287
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,680
was capable of and he would dial
into the car immediately because

288
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,800
he'd been racing because of the 
season, the way it works, so the

289
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,680
weather. 
He'd already won the 

290
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:03,640
championship in South Africa. 
He was doing nothing anyway and 

291
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,960
he he come across the back us 
up. 

292
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,560
So yeah, I mean, it was good. 
But the relationship to go back 

293
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,120
to that with James, it was fine.
It was a little tetchy 

294
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,240
sometimes, yeah. 
But he was 19. 

295
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,160
He wanted to set a world alight.
He wanted to win the British 

296
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,920
Stone Cup championship. 
He wanted to win every race he 

297
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,920
he entered. 
That was the bad thing. 

298
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:33,800
I mean, he was he was capable of
doing it and ultimately did. 

299
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:39,800
But he just had an impetuosity 
about him that he he needed to 

300
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,640
just calm down a little bit. 
It's the two bulls, the young 

301
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,440
bull and the old bull in the in 
the field job, you know. 

302
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,480
Yeah, yeah. 
Let's just calm down a bit. 

303
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,160
Yeah. 
So obviously you left Thruxton, 

304
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,120
you had a podium finish there, 
went to Silverstone, Alton Park,

305
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,080
you were very rarely off the 
podium, your third, second, 

306
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,960
third and then. 
Came a meeting at Brands Hatch, 

307
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,120
which I think I was fair, it's 
fair to say was the wettest ever

308
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,680
British touring car meeting I've
ever seen. 

309
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,280
I don't. 
For example, they wouldn't race 

310
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:16,560
in those sorts of conditions 
now. 

311
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,320
It would be deemed too dangerous
and too treacherous. 

312
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,720
No, I think, I think that's 
true. 

313
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,960
And I think that are you talking
about the one where we all got a

314
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,880
roasting in here with it? 
Yeah, that was the classic well 

315
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:37,000
and opening his mouth again. 
And I, I generally, I always 

316
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,160
pray myself in, in thinking 
before I open my mouth and 

317
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,680
there's a lot of times people 
will say, no, you didn't. 

318
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:47,560
Well, I generally always did 
because I generally do it for 

319
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,320
effect, for the press, for the 
TV, to get coverage for the 

320
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:56,360
brand that I was paid, paid by, 
and also to enhance my own 

321
00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:00,320
reputation. 
However, we all got an absolute 

322
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,560
roasting. 
I think I was on pool or 

323
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,240
thereabouts. 
I can't actually remember. 

324
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,560
I wasn't on pool. 
No, I was. 

325
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,480
No, I was actually felt on the 
grid. 

326
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:14,880
Yeah, but on the on the start of
the race, I think it was red 

327
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,920
flag three times. 
Maybe something rolled. 

328
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,000
I can't remember. 
There were two rollers. 

329
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,360
Ricard rolled the Volvo and Tim 
Sugdan rolled his Toyota as well

330
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,280
at the race. 
And Pierre Armani got us all out

331
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,160
in front of the the old 
grandstand. 

332
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,920
It's no longer there. 
That's huge, big of a 

333
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,000
grandstand. 
And he finger wagged us like the

334
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,240
schoolmaster just absolutely 
roasted us. 

335
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,760
And if there was one more red 
flag, there'd be no racing for 

336
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,440
the day. 
And, you know, we'll be having a

337
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,480
different conversation. 
So we're all right. 

338
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,080
OK, so we get in the cars, off 
we go. 

339
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,360
And we I win the race. 
And in the press conference 

340
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,680
afterwards, the question was 
asked, you know, that was 

341
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,760
atrocious idea. 
How did you manage to stay on 

342
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,200
the island? 
And I said, yeah, well, these 

343
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,360
things are difficult to weigh 
1000 kilos and weigh 950 kilos 

344
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,120
in our case. 
And I said there, there's no 

345
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,480
weight in the back of the car. 
And they dance around. 

346
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,000
And in conditions like that 
there, there's somethings about 

347
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,800
hard to hang on to. 
But Pierre seems to think that 

348
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,920
we were crushing into each other
deliberately. 

349
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:25,520
Well he's on drugs if you think 
so. 

350
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,640
And of course the next morning 
that the Red Talk newspapers 

351
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,120
had, John Cleland accuses Clark 
at the course of being on drugs.

352
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:42,120
So I had to phone up Pierre the 
following morning after my boss 

353
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,120
at Vauxhall came on and gave me 
a roasting. 

354
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,320
I had to phone up here and 
apologise and say that that 

355
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,480
wasn't what was meant, it was a 
rather tongue in cheek off the 

356
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,320
cough remark. 
I wasn't suggesting for a moment

357
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,960
he was on drugs and his reply to
that was he says, well actually 

358
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,080
was about. 
He says I do go to Amsterdam 

359
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,960
quite a lot so I'm not actually 
sure what he was in fairing 

360
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,680
there. 
However, that was one of the 

361
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:16,760
wettest releases I've ever had 
but so satisfying to win the 

362
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,280
race. 
And if I remember, James was 

363
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:25,960
second right on my bumper at the
end of the race, but at no 

364
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,480
stage. 
Yes, he was, yeah. 

365
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,800
At no stage was he told to back 
off, at no stage was I told to 

366
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:39,320
let him through on at no stage 
that I radio and say tell him to

367
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,280
to offer my butt. 
It was, we never had team 

368
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,000
authors and it was just we were 
there to work for manufacture, 

369
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:54,160
to get the manufacturers and we 
didn't win the manufacturers 

370
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,960
award that year. 
I won the championship. 

371
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:01,040
Renault won it probably because 
James had his accident and we 

372
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,840
brought in a couple of, they 
weren't quite as familiar with a

373
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,400
car. 
So because of that we didn't 

374
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,280
amass enough points to win the 
manufacturers award, which was 

375
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,960
really frustrating. 
But we didn't crush in each 

376
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,200
other. 
Probably we didn't do anything 

377
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,520
that was going to jeopardise the
race win and and we never had 

378
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,680
that situation. 
It's the same. 

379
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,680
We never had team orders. 
No giver whispered in my ear on 

380
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,240
the radio. 
You got to let James shoe or 

381
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,400
whisper and James here leave 
John alone. 

382
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,480
No listen, no two ways, as the 
chant of James hadn't had the 

383
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,880
accident not killed and he was 
trailing me by the time we got 

384
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,960
to three or four races from the 
end, then I have no doubt that 

385
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,280
we would have been having a 
slightly different conversation.

386
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,360
Yeah. 
And and these things depend 

387
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:56,000
about on whether you're signed 
up for the following year or you

388
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,280
know, what kind of the contract 
and all of those things. 

389
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,680
But we know had that it never 
happened. 

390
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,200
My 1 favourite picture from that
meeting is obviously of Pierre 

391
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,440
on the start line giving you you
you. 

392
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,360
You're rollicking and you're all
very Stony faced you you can see

393
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,000
you you can see James. 
You can see all you know 

394
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,280
everyone else has stood there 
and giggling away like a little 

395
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,320
schoolboy is is jam Piero 
Simone. 

396
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,360
It's it's a great picture, but 
he probably. 

397
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,960
He probably didn't understand 
any of the pierrimony he was 

398
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,800
saying. 
That's probably why we're 

399
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,000
Biggle. 
He's true. 

400
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:35,520
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

401
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,960
Because Jean Pierre's grasped 
for the English language was 

402
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,480
certainly better than my grasp 
of Italian, but he but he wasn't

403
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,400
fluent in English, so he 
probably didn't understand the 

404
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,280
the schoolboy nature of what was
just happening. 

405
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,640
But yeah, I mean that that win, 
that Brands started a series of 

406
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,640
four wins in a row. 
You moved on to Donnington, 

407
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,720
which has always been a strong 
circuit for you. 

408
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,120
In fact, is there a specific 
reason why Donnington's always 

409
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,320
seem so successful for you? 
I've always won there. 

410
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,160
It doesn't matter whether it was
in production cars, Thunder 

411
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,440
salons and I've always won and 
going well there. 

412
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:24,040
And I found a lane which some of
the latest as Sutton found this 

413
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,880
lane a couple or so years ago 
out of Mclean's, out of Corpus 

414
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,160
and on the inside there and it's
much, much faster. 

415
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,240
And I'm not saying that's the 
answer. 

416
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,040
It's just a smooth track. 
It's pretty brave down the 

417
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,960
hills, the old hairpin and it 
just flows. 

418
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,960
And when you get the fluoride, 
it's just perfect. 

419
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,240
But again, I came on and stopped
there because one of the wet 

420
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,160
races that we had there, I was 
interviewed by the TV and I 

421
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,160
said, well, this track is 
treacherous when it's wet. 

422
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,040
I said because all the planes 
flying into and E Midlands 

423
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,960
Airport are dumping fuel all 
over the track. 

424
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,880
And the following morning the 
man in charge of East Midlands 

425
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,360
Airport phoned me up and gave me
a freaking Roseman. 

426
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,360
Our planes don't drop air fuel. 
All right. 

427
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,720
OK, stop it. 
But what should the excuse for 

428
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,680
the tribe be? 
Saddam. 

429
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,120
Strawberry way, you know. 
But I don't know. 

430
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,360
It's just, it's got a lovely 
feel. 

431
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,680
It doesn't matter if it's the 
Grand Prix tribe, if it's the 

432
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,800
the little tribe, if you go by, 
it's in 94. 

433
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,560
The World Cup was there and from
the 2nd row of the grid I LED 

434
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,720
that race on the first start, 
right down to the beer can and 

435
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520
then up to the left hand or to 
come back onto pitch straight 

436
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,400
when Taquini and Piero decided 
to pinball me off the track. 

437
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,720
Yes, so I'd always done well at 
Donnington regardless of the 

438
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,640
configuration of the track and 
it's just one of my favourite 

439
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,440
tracks even though. 
You mentioned that line. 

440
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,480
I remember we we digressing a 
little bit, but just just to 

441
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,120
mention it on the coverage at 
Donnington in 98, that famous 

442
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,200
race with Mansell that you won 
you Charlie Cox actually comment

443
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,600
mentioned that at the time he 
said something. 

444
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,840
Look at that line. 
You can see you can feel the 

445
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,640
group. 
You can see it and you could you

446
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,280
were just flying past these 
other other drivers and other 

447
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,000
cars and you could physically 
see the the increased level of 

448
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,880
grip you had there. 
So it's interesting that that. 

449
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,800
Not everyone's trusted because 
it's not the ideal lane, it's 

450
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,600
not how you would draw the line 
for the corner. 

451
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,840
But I certainly figured it a 
couple of years ago and and he 

452
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,160
was doing the same thing right 
down the inside of people. 

453
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,920
Perfect. 
Yeah, so you, you, you take the 

454
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,080
double at Donnington, there's 
that great shot of you holding 

455
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,920
both the trophies aloft on the 
on the podium, which I've 

456
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,440
always, I've always thought is 
great. 

457
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,400
And then we get to the British 
Grand Prix support meeting. 

458
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,360
Again, another wet race. 
And, and again, a wet race such 

459
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,040
that they maybe wouldn't start 
the race today. 

460
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,480
It was so wet. 
And the guy, the, the two books 

461
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,240
that I think from memory and I 
was up against was Will Hoy in 

462
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,280
the Renault and Paul Radisich in
the Mondeo. 

463
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,600
And Paul and I, I think it was 
something about the first lap 

464
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,840
we, I went for a move which I 
didn't get to pull off, but I 

465
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:47,680
got right alongside him as he 
turned in and my wheel got a big

466
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,520
gash in it, which I didn't 
realise it. 

467
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:55,080
It's only it took a chunk out of
the wheel and it's just as well 

468
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,920
I didn't know what had happened 
because I then go on and I win 

469
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,720
the race. 
And in the, the part fair me 

470
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,240
afterwards, my engineer, he 
said, well, what's the story 

471
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,520
with the wheel that I told the 
other way? 

472
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,600
They had a look at it and I have
no idea how the wheel didn't 

473
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,400
park company with a tyre, how 
the tyre didn't deflate. 

474
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,200
And my engineer gave me that 
wheel because it was my birthday

475
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,880
on that day as well. 
And my engineer gave me the 

476
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,840
wheel and he autographed it and 
said happy birthday. 

477
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,880
And I brought it home and for 
about 5 years it lay here with a

478
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,440
piece of glass on the top of it 
as a table and it kept pressure.

479
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,040
It never lost pressure. 
So these make these mixoons hang

480
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,880
on to the pressure. 
And even though I've taken a 

481
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,080
chunk outside of the wheel, 
somehow it finished the race. 

482
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,800
I won the race, but it was 
bloody close. 

483
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,480
I think Will could have won the 
race that day, but he lost the 

484
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:09,440
wiper on the first lap. 
I had no wiper and sitting in 

485
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,760
the slipstream of two or three 
other people and with no wiper 

486
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,800
it was nigh on impossible for 
him to be as game as he would 

487
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,120
like to have been. 
Cool. 

488
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,480
So I think had Will had a wipe 
for that day, I may not have won

489
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,440
that race, but there's nothing 
better. 

490
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,760
There's only one thing better, 
the one in the British Grand 

491
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,560
Prix support race and that would
have been to win my own home 

492
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,720
Grand Prix at Knock Hill and, 
but sadly I've never been any 

493
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,440
good up there. 
So I've never had, I've won one 

494
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,120
race and all the time I've raced
there. 

495
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:51,160
But to to finish that day first 
at the British Grand Prix, with,

496
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,160
I don't know, 150,000 people for
the Grand Prix still in 

497
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,000
attendance, still hanging on 
despite the weather, to watch 

498
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,680
the touring car race at the end 
of the day was something. 

499
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,840
Else there's a brewery it's a 
cracking race as well as you 

500
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,240
said you will and and Paul 
really went at it. 

501
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,360
It was a it was a we we shared a
clip of it a couple of years ago

502
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,560
and even to this day it's still 
reshared. 

503
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,000
Look at this great battle look 
at this it's a fantastic it's 

504
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,760
it's one of the one of the great
touring car battles. 

505
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,600
It's a wonderful race. 
Well. 

506
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800
Never mind Dad, because look at 
the way John Trelland is going. 

507
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,160
He's right up alongside, he's 
going for it. 

508
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,200
He sold him a dummy, he's going 
through on the inside of 

509
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,480
Woodcoat and he does it superb 
and Hoy goes through. 

510
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,200
So Cleland leads Hoy up to 
second, Radishes down to 3rd as 

511
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800
they finish the lap. 
I, I, that was a, that was a 

512
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,880
great weekend really, because I,
I also was driving a poor Super 

513
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,160
Cup, OK Carrera in a Porsche 
Super Cup race. 

514
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,280
That which was the support to 
all the Grand Prix and I had 

515
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,520
been taking it to vice site to 
test the car prior to the Grand 

516
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,680
Prix. 
And it took a fair bit of 

517
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,440
convincing my bosses at Vauxhall
to let me do it because it was a

518
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,880
rear wheel drive, rear engine 
sports car. 

519
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,560
And I've got a front wheel 
drive, front engine, saloon car 

520
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,680
and did the really think that I 
could drive both properly on the

521
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,040
weekend when it was so important
to win the championship? 

522
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,960
Yeah, of course. 
I convinced them that I'd be OK 

523
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,400
and I can't remember when I 
finished in that race, but that 

524
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,800
was pretty brutal because the 
they did like to rub each other 

525
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,680
than Porsche lads. 
But then it got better because 

526
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,480
prior to the, the, the, the 
Grand Prix on the Thursday, I 

527
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,560
think of the Friday, I got 
strapped to the top of a Tiger 

528
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,880
Moth and did a lap of 
Silverstone on the Crunchy 

529
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,760
plane. 
And I, I was miked up and did 

530
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,000
cameras in the wings of this 
Tiger Mollus. 

531
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,280
And we took off from to Weston 
Airfield just down the street 

532
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,679
from the Grand Prix and we flew 
the track and I commentated as 

533
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,560
we flew along at the old try 
along the old start finish line.

534
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,840
Now we're coming into Cox. 
This this is a first year corner

535
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,520
for us and we're doing about 110
miles an hour here. 

536
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,120
And then we're down through the 
Migates, Beckett's complex, 

537
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,080
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 
And the, the guy, the pilot took

538
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:39,199
me absolutely on the track the 
way it was about, I don't know, 

539
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,239
I'm going to say 100 feet off 
the track. 

540
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:47,400
And then it was great. 
It got, I think it was got a 55 

541
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,679
or 6 pages in auto sport the 
following week. 

542
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,960
And I had forgotten to tell my 
wife that I had stood on the top

543
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:03,600
of this Tiger Moth until she saw
the pictures of me and the girl 

544
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,720
that had been teaching me to 
what to do with the wing 

545
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:08,000
walking. 
Yeah. 

546
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,920
So that didn't that didn't be 
done particularly well. 

547
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,240
Roma. 
So it was a good all in weekend 

548
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:17,760
Tiger North and Thursday. 
And it was testing qualifying 

549
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,920
for the Porsche, testing, 
qualifying for the the the 

550
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,280
touring car race. 
And then yeah, to win it at the 

551
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,080
end of it and to the winner 
brace Grand Prix event was 

552
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,560
something special. 
The Championship then moved on 

553
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,000
to not hill. 
They've already hinted that 

554
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,320
you've never had the greatest of
records at Not Kill. 

555
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,720
It's the only place that year, 
apart from Brands, where you 

556
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:49,320
didn't finish, where you didn't 
step on the podium at all, and 

557
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,960
you've got 1/5 and 1/6. 
Can you explain it or is it just

558
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,080
one of those things? 
If I could explain it, I'd of 

559
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,800
going on to win more races 
there. 

560
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,720
There was a guy called Ian 
Forrest who was the head driving

561
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,040
instructor up there long before 
Gordon Shedden was on the sea. 

562
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Yeah, he used to raced an M3 
early days, I think, didn't he? 

563
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Yeah, in the series, yeah. 
He erased an M3 that's right in 

564
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,080
the championship and when I got 
there, Ian would take me, right?

565
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,600
You see, right. 
You're aiming for this and 

566
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,000
you're doing that. 
You're doing this. 

567
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,680
And my teammate Jeff Allen used 
to kick my butt there every 

568
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,520
single time we got in a car. 
However, we got to branch Ice 

569
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,000
and I would kick his butt as 
well. 

570
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,080
So it was itsy bitsy, but for 
some reason I could never get 

571
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,360
it. 
I just couldn't pull it 

572
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,440
together. 
Maybe you have to monster the 

573
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,160
kerbs that not kill. 
Yeah. 

574
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,600
And maybe wasn't good at 
monstering kerbs. 

575
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,040
I'm I'm quite mechanically 
sympathetic and maybe it was 

576
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,880
that, I don't know, I've really 
no idea. 

577
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,920
But it wasn't for the one to try
and it wasn't for the changes to

578
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,360
the car and we just did 
everything. 

579
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,240
But I couldn't get it. 
I could not get it to work. 

580
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,320
Don't know, it was weird. 
And No Kill what a sponsor they 

581
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,040
had. 
I had no kill racist circuit on 

582
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,720
the visor of my crash helmet 
through all of my touring car 

583
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:26,000
career, even when I went to 
Bathurst in Australia, I always 

584
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,200
run no Kill racing circuit on my
crush helmet. 

585
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,080
So I was. 
They were loyal to me. 

586
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,920
I was loyal to them. 
But could I get the track? 

587
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,000
No. 
Could I hear? 

588
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,800
It's a it's a funny 1, isn't it?
That you say Jeff thrashed you 

589
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,120
that Knockhill normally, and of 
course he joined you. 

590
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,960
As we said earlier, James had 
that monster shunt and I've only

591
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,360
ever seen the stills of that 
crash, but monumental. 

592
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,880
And when James came on the show 
himself, he said that he still 

593
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,200
suffers to this day from from 
the injuries that that were 

594
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,400
caused. 
He still doesn't have the sight 

595
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,640
and perfect son. 
James has got a very small brain

596
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,080
and he was rather than a bit 
inside a lot of his head. 

597
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,440
So. 
So that's what was causing the 

598
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,680
problem. 
I'm only kidding. 

599
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,640
I'm already. 
I wait to see him. 

600
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:23,800
He went to a private hospital in
Edinburgh and I went down to 

601
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,480
visit him. 
And because of the rattling that

602
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,280
his head had taken. 
Yeah. 

603
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,480
Between there and May, we had 
ears on these Ricardo seats. 

604
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,800
So that that constant rattling 
about like that as the car was 

605
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,160
having its accident, his eyes 
were black. 

606
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,680
He looked as though he'd done 20
rounds with Mike Tyson. 

607
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,760
Yeah, I mean, he was just black 
and blue. 

608
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:55,200
And it took him a long time. 
And as as you say, I'm not even 

609
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,040
sure that today he's fully 
recovered from that because it 

610
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,320
was a monster of an accident. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it the, the 

611
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,480
stills are horrific. 
Obviously it was a test 

612
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,840
enshrined so there isn't footage
of it. 

613
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,760
Probably for the best, but 
awful, awful shunt and. 

614
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,000
He was a lucky boy. 
He's that probably was the 

615
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,360
biggest shunt he's ever had in 
his life, even considering he 

616
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,400
did a season so a rallying. 
I don't think he had an act that

617
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,680
big, human. 
No, no, it was a proper nasty 

618
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,360
one that way it was. 
But you, you, you head back into

619
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,880
more successful stomping 
grounds. 

620
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,640
You're back at Brands Hatch this
time in the dry for once this 

621
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,360
season because they seem to 
always be reigning at Brands 

622
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,240
Hatch in 95. 
But this is where it got quite 

623
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,000
tense because you and Volvo and 
Ricard, who had a little bit of 

624
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:52,000
a touch in both races and it got
really quite very intense. 

625
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,800
It was the the the the famous 
quote from you Vauxhall Din 

626
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,920
designer like that Volvo 
designer like that and then. 

627
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,520
The slight touch in race 2 where
the Ricard is adamant that you 

628
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,960
you nudged him and yeah, it it 
all got very. 

629
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,680
Out of Graham Hill Bend up to 
30s John Cleland is going for 

630
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,840
it. 
He's right up behind and and out

631
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,120
spins right now. 
Now was there contact there? 

632
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,000
I do not know. 
I couldn't see. 

633
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:29,320
Ricard, Ricard needs to watch 
some more NASCAR because that 

634
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,400
was drafting and all I did was 
release all the air from 

635
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,480
underneath the back of his car. 
And unfortunately, by me doing 

636
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,160
that, he spun. 
I mean, I don't know what he's 

637
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:47,040
talking about, but you know, 
that did develop into something 

638
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,800
quite, quite big because Tom 
Walkinshaw, who was running the 

639
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,840
Volvo team and Tom was not true.
He knew how do you could take 

640
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,720
the legalities all the way. 
And I think, I'm not sure they 

641
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:07,440
protested me that day, but they 
had blown up photographs from 

642
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,800
virtually every photographer at 
every angle from clear ways just

643
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,320
to see if they could get 
something. 

644
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:17,640
And of course there was no paint
on my car and there was no paint

645
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,880
on the back as care. 
But it was, I think it was just 

646
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,000
a draft. 
I think there was a gust of wind

647
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,600
that gone. 
Of course. 

648
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,080
So that was in the second race 
and in the first race going up 

649
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:39,840
to Druids, Ricard very clearly 
nudged the back of you and and 

650
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,720
it relinquished the lead to Will
Hoy. 

651
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,000
Now you and I have talked about 
Will many times and I know he's 

652
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,520
obviously you, you, you two were
very, very close. 

653
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:53,240
But it did lead to Will winning 
his first race for, for for a 

654
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,200
few years. 
And I know at the time I was 

655
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,680
glad that Will was able to sort 
of give one back to the doubters

656
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,040
who said that maybe he'd lost a 
bit or, you know, in fact, he 

657
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,440
went on a good run. 
He won 3 or 4 the last couple of

658
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,240
races and showed that he still 
was a real talent and a top top 

659
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,000
racer. 
Definitely, definitely. 

660
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,760
Yeah, not two ways, but I mean 
that that was about the point of

661
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,680
the season where it started to 
get a bit tricky. 

662
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:29,360
It was done to Renault, Volvo 
and then ourselves with Oxall 

663
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,640
and the we were going to listen.
It was important. 

664
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,480
We had to win the championship, 
drivers championship, 

665
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,080
manufacturers championship, but 
there was no two ways that in 

666
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,440
those days, you know, you just 
have to look at the cars that 

667
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,040
drove into the car parts for the
spectators and they were 

668
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,560
supporting their own brand by 
what they were driving to and 

669
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,920
from the tracks. 
So to win a race on the Sunday 

670
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:03,600
undoubtedly helped to give the 
car more credibility, you know, 

671
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,040
on the Monday, more like, you 
know, that's what it was. 

672
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,840
That's, that's how it worked. 
I mean, I, I, I continue to say 

673
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,960
this, that if it weren't for 
Colin Mccree and Pro drive, 

674
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,040
Subaru would still be a shitty 
little machine for taking bills 

675
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,520
of hay down the field for 
farmers. 

676
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,120
Absolutely. 
If it wasn't for Colin winning 

677
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:28,120
rallies globally, Subaru would 
not have had the following that 

678
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,000
it has. 
Yeah. 

679
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,160
So I think Carl's winning races,
winning rallies, absolutely. 

680
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,120
And enhance the image of the 
brand, you know. 

681
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:42,480
But it got to the technical 
stage with Volvo being run by 

682
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:48,120
Tom Walkinshaw, Renault being 
run by the Williams team and the

683
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:55,880
the the ourselves, the Vauxhall.
It then got we got out of brands

684
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,760
and then we went to Snetterton 
and it got really messy. 

685
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,320
Yes. 
Yeah, I don't know what you 

686
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,480
remember of Sutton, but I've got
some things that I'm not even 

687
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,040
sure you know about. 
Probably, possibly not. 

688
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,280
It was that really horrible day 
where I can't remember which way

689
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,800
around it was, but it was wet 
and you either had slicks on but

690
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,720
so did Ricard, or you had wets 
on and so did Ricardo. 

691
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,640
Anyway, be both of you had the 
wrong tyre on and you were both 

692
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,920
falling down the field. 
We decided that regardless of 

693
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:33,400
the weather that we we would put
on whatever. 

694
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:38,080
Regardless of what I thought, 
yeah, I wanted to do, we would 

695
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,880
put on what Renault and what 
Volvo fitted to Alan Menu and to

696
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,120
Ricard Rydell. 
Yeah. 

697
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,760
And that's how what? 
And that's why we ended up all 

698
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,920
falling down the order. 
Yes. 

699
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,000
And then I think the second race
was dry. 

700
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Yeah, I think. 
And I was. 

701
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,440
I thought that you were. 
Third. 

702
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,800
Yeah. 
You were third in the second 

703
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,160
race, Yeah. 
But it but it got somewhat 

704
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,320
complicated because and you 
wouldn't have to be Einstein to 

705
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,640
work out which Volvo driverless 
was. 

706
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,480
But on the grid before I think 
the start of the first race, I 

707
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,760
think it was it was before the 
start of the first race this 

708
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,880
Volvo driver had said to his 
engineer, have you dealt with a 

709
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,880
camera? 
Yes, we have. 

710
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:30,000
All right, OK, fine. 
And the race started and I think

711
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,480
menu I think broke down from 
memory or something like that. 

712
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,120
And I was way back in 13th I 
think. 

713
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:45,360
So this particular Volvo never 
got anywhere near me but between

714
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,520
the two races Mike Nicholson who
was the team manager for 

715
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:56,160
Vauxhall, his wife Marie worked 
for BHP who did all the TV stuff

716
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:03,200
yesterday and they came into our
motorhome and said lads got to 

717
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,800
have a problem here. 
And one of the Volvos has been 

718
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:14,320
set the task of removing either 
a Renault or a Vauxhall, and 

719
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,800
we've got footage to prove it. 
And they had the footage from 

720
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,920
the bumper Cam on this 
particular Volvo. 

721
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:28,120
And you can see this mechanic's 
face with a thumb covered in 

722
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:33,840
grease down putting it over the 
lens of the camera. 

723
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,200
And the driver in question 
completely forgot that was a 

724
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,720
cap. 
There was a voice recorder 

725
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:47,320
inside the car as well. 
Ironically, the engineer that 

726
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,600
was running him that day became 
my engineer the following year. 

727
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,960
Malaks. 
So I do know the whole story. 

728
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,560
OK. 
And TWR will find I think 50 

729
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,040
grand for that. 
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a big

730
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,080
thing. 
I don't think it, I can't 

731
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,920
remember really, but I can't 
remember if I hit the press, hit

732
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,040
the papers or anything. 
But it was clearly we are going 

733
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,440
to try and win this championship
come what we. 

734
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,480
Yeah, yeah. 
Now you mention it does ring a 

735
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,000
bell, but not to any great 
detail. 

736
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,680
Yeah, it it's, it got quite 
controversial at that point 

737
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:32,360
then. 
Yeah, it could say we just, we 

738
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,840
decided that we were going to go
with exactly what the two others

739
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,680
were doing, right or wrong. 
That was it makes sense. 

740
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:45,800
MM Briggs was in there to take 
points for not, not to take 

741
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,880
anybody out, no, but to swallow 
up points from some of the 

742
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,640
others. 
And what we've done, mate, was 

743
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:58,320
staying with me in Scotland and 
we'd rented a a little Cessna to

744
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,960
fly down from Edinburgh to 
Snetterton and land on the back 

745
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,840
straight. 
We've got to that point and 

746
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,040
there wasn't many races to go, I
think. 

747
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,800
Was there really two to go? 
After. 

748
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,600
After, Yeah. 
After Sneleton. 

749
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,040
Yeah, 2. 
Theoretically, if I didn't 

750
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,680
struggle to, the championship 
was made. 

751
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:25,000
So we knew that we'd come out as
Sneleton Health and and Briggs. 

752
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,760
He got involved in a bit of a 
FRACA during the race and I've 

753
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,920
got those papers, this little 
Cessna on the back street 

754
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,240
getting warmed up. 
I've I've said to the girls in 

755
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:44,800
the hospitality could you do 2 
state sandwiches and maybe a 

756
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,160
picnic for the flight on the way
home and give me a bottle of red

757
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:53,440
wine and two glasses. 
So Briggsie got dragged into the

758
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,240
clerk of the courses office. 
Now we're running at daylight 

759
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,160
and I'm on the phone of Briggs. 
He's saying have you sorted this

760
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,920
yet? 
He said no, no, I'm sitting in 

761
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,920
the waiting room. 
He said I don't know what's 

762
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,440
going to happen. 
I said well I know what's going 

763
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,080
to happen, I'm going to piss off
and leave you and I'm going to 

764
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,240
eat your sandwich and I'm going 
to drink all your Whiting and 

765
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:16,120
you'll have to find your way 
back on the Scotland. 

766
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,200
No, no, no, no, don't do that, 
don't do that. 

767
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:24,360
So now I'm now I'm on the phone 
to Norwich airport to find out 

768
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,680
if they would let us fly from 
Snetterton to Norwich. 

769
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,800
Then somebody would get a quick 
car and take Briggs E up to 

770
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,640
Norwich to let him on board the 
flight back home to Edinburgh. 

771
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,440
So the pilot by this thing is 
getting a bit twitchy. 

772
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,840
So he's on the phone to Norwich 
saying we, you know, can can we 

773
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,360
land here? 
Norwich doesn't have night 

774
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,000
flights in those days. 
They didn't have any lights at 

775
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,600
all. 
So it was like we we have got to

776
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,720
get might breaks in this area 
pronto, pronto. 

777
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,920
So I said, mate, just admit it 
was your fault, whatever the 

778
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,920
fuck it was, just admit it and 
just get here. 

779
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,120
So I think he got, I think he 
got admonished. 

780
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,480
And the next thing that's a car 
comes up alongside the plane, 

781
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,080
all four wheels locked up. 
Briggs. 

782
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:22,200
He jumps over these race kit, 
clambers in the Cessna and 

783
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,000
before the front wheels off the 
ground. 

784
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,680
We'd already take the car, share
the box. 

785
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,440
I'm going to say we got cold 
with this. 

786
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,320
John, you, you, you, you said 
there just now you've got 2 

787
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,560
meetings left. 
Getting a bit controversial with

788
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,720
Volvo drivers doing what they're
doing and how. 

789
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:51,120
How is the pressure? 
Yeah, the pressure is building. 

790
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,080
Yeah. 
There's no two ways it's, you 

791
00:50:54,080 --> 00:51:00,520
know, I, I, it's built from 1992
till that. 

792
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,080
So it's taken me three years to 
to try and win another 

793
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:10,800
championship. 
Yeah, the expectation from 

794
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,200
Vauxhall, the expectations from 
the team and everyone. 

795
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,680
I know it's probably putting 
more pressure on myself because 

796
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,040
I needed to be certain that I 
made mistakes. 

797
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,400
But what I think I did happen 
was a great car, a great team, 

798
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,280
and I knew that we were going to
Alton Park and Silverstone, 2 

799
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:39,880
tracks that I'm good with. 
I needed to buy points. 

800
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:44,360
As far as I was concerned, if I 
had a bad Alton and I come out 

801
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,840
with some points, then I had to 
seal it at Silverstone. 

802
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:52,320
I still thought that all of that
was possible and I was 

803
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,400
convinced. 
I didn't actually think I'd 

804
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,200
scored enough points at Alton to
claim the title there with one 

805
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,320
round to go. 
But yeah, I mean, there was, 

806
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,920
there was a huge amount of 
pressure. 

807
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:12,280
And actually I put even more 
pressure on myself and I'm 

808
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,160
travelling down the road, down 
the M6, coming over the 

809
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,760
Manchester Ship Canal, about 
half an hour from from Alton 

810
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,640
Park on the, I'm going to say 
this Thursday night or whatever 

811
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:28,080
it was. 
And I turn off onto the 50, the 

812
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,480
M56, wherever, and I'm heading 
down there. 

813
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:37,560
Next thing, there's a car with 
blue lights behind me and the 

814
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,800
guy drives me onto the half 
shoulder. 

815
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,800
So I get invited to go back and 
sit in this police car. 

816
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,360
It was a plain clothes Opal. 
Senator Vauxhall, Senator. 

817
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,720
Yeah, yeah, plainclothes, no 
markings on it, Little tiny blue

818
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:57,880
lakes in the grill. 
So I get in the back and 

819
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,960
fortunately I have a driver 
licence with me. 

820
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,080
And the guy said, you know why 
we stopped? 

821
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,960
Yes, I think I do. 
I hand him a driver licence. 

822
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,440
And he said Trump Cleland, He 
said are you the racing driver? 

823
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,920
He says you'll be going to the 
Olton Park for the weekend. 

824
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,920
And are you? 
I said, yeah, I'm sorry about 

825
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,400
that. 
Yeah, own part as a local track.

826
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,840
He said we we can never get 
tickets though. 

827
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:30,160
I said, oh, this is your lucky 
mate, I can help you there. 

828
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:38,280
And he eluded his mates and the 
guy, he said, are you serious? 

829
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,240
Can you get me tickets? 
I said, well, it will of course 

830
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:43,640
depend a bit on how this 
conversation end. 

831
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,840
And the guy said, well, listen, 
you weren't going that fast. 

832
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,080
You were on the ship canal there
at 50 mile an hour because 

833
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,560
they're big in the ramp Rd up 
again. 

834
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,040
You were a bit higher than that.
But I'll tell you what we'll do.

835
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,880
Take it easy. 
Just be sensible. 

836
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,200
I said right, I'll tell you what
we'll do. 

837
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:02,480
Who's coming? 
You 2? 

838
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,200
Yeah. 
Do you need any more? 

839
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,320
No, no, just the two of us. 
I said right. 

840
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,520
Sunday morning down to the gates
at Alton Park. 

841
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,080
Get one of the the tunnelstiles 
there and I will leave an 

842
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,280
envelope with tickets in it for 
you and you make your way to the

843
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,440
Vauxhall Hospitality Suite and 
I'll meet you there. 

844
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,000
So the guy arrived, the two of 
them arrive and I said, listen, 

845
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,400
thanks from last night by the 
way. 

846
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,000
I said that was going to make 
my, my weekend really poor. 

847
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,400
And I said come with me. 
And I said to the girls, 

848
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,240
whatever. 
Then large one food drink, you 

849
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:40,480
give them it all day long, just 
give them it. 

850
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,920
And I took them down to the pets
and I showed them the car, 

851
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,040
introduced them to the team. 
And during the races, these two 

852
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:55,760
guys stood in my pics on top of 
two spare tyres, 2 spare wheels 

853
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:00,240
for my car, and watched the race
with the very best passes that 

854
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:01,640
money could buy. 
Brilliant. 

855
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,640
And they were there and they 
just had an absolute ball of a 

856
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,640
day. 
And to win the championship, I 

857
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,080
was as some of the videos I 
think you put up, I was struck 

858
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,600
for words. 
But yeah, when I got back to 

859
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,480
meet those two lives, they said,
oh, that was absolutely 

860
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:20,880
fantastic. 
Congratulations. 

861
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:22,880
We couldn't have been hearing 
about being. 

862
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,720
And I said, no, that's I'm 
really, really appreciative what

863
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,040
you did the other night there. 
I said, I don't suppose you've 

864
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,800
got a brother that looks after 
the M1 by any chance? 

865
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:38,800
They're not quite a lot but you 
were right, there were super 

866
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:43,000
blokes and they had such a good 
day and they watched me win that

867
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,520
championship. 
So for them that was that was 

868
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:46,840
the best day of the life, I 
think. 

869
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,960
Yeah. 
And you know, it's obviously 

870
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,880
it's a day you won the 
championship. 

871
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,880
It's a day where you won. 
And now we've chat. 

872
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,400
We've chatted before, John, 
about this, about you, how 

873
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:02,040
sometimes you felt you hadn't 
won the 89. 

874
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,840
It felt like you didn't fully 
deserve deserve The wrong word, 

875
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:10,680
maybe, but 95 meant a whole lot 
more to you. 

876
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,200
Absolutely. 
I mean, I've said before and 

877
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,480
I've said on many occasions when
people talk about this, that for

878
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:23,920
seven years, from 1989 until 
1995, I was never out of the top

879
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,840
four in that championship. 
I was either first sent the 3rd 

880
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,120
or 4th and for seven years. 
So I knew how to do it. 

881
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:39,400
I knew what was needed and in 89
to not win a race but to win the

882
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:45,160
championship I didn't think was 
fair on everybody because I'd 

883
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:50,800
come the tail end of it all and,
and, and, and actually did I 

884
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,240
deserve to win it? 
I don't think I did deserve to 

885
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:58,960
win it. 
It was 895 that I then realised 

886
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,800
that the job was was good. 
The job was, yeah, I've done 

887
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,800
this, I've done it the hard way.
I'd come up against two big 

888
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:15,440
factory teams in in Renault and 
Volvo, run by Formula One teams.

889
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,360
Yeah. 
And we had one. 

890
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:25,800
This used car dealer from Galois
Shoes had had one and taken on 

891
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,200
some of the best drivers that's 
ever been in the championship 

892
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,800
with Alan and you do Ricard 
Rydell and you know, people like

893
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:39,680
Will Hoy and so on and so forth.
They were just it was just a 

894
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,120
great day and I've never known 
that stuff for words. 

895
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:49,480
But when the cameras threw in 
front of me that day, having 

896
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,400
just got in the car and won the 
championship, I don't know what 

897
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,400
to say. 
I was beat for works. 

898
00:57:54,400 --> 00:58:00,040
I I was about to busted the 
tears because I've worked so 

899
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,440
hard and the pressure was 
eventually off my shoulders. 

900
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,400
I didn't. 
I didn't want to bubble on the 

901
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,080
on the telly. 
Yes. 

902
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,560
No. 
I kind of, I kind of had to say,

903
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:14,880
well, I don't know what to say 
here. 

904
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,800
I'll, I'll think about it and 
I'll come back. 

905
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:25,720
But it was just the the relief. 
It was like one of these 

906
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:30,480
pressure cookers. 
It was just a cheer relief of a 

907
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,160
whole year's work. 
Yeah, and then some. 

908
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,760
It wasn't just a year. 
It was the build up to it. 

909
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,480
It was all the test thing. 
It was all the components that 

910
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,840
we practised, changed, tried, 
altered, fiddled West and 

911
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,080
everything. 
And it was just to make sure 

912
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,640
that we were always in the right
place at the right time during 

913
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,040
night 5. 
And it was a wonderful season 

914
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,560
and I, I will always look when I
couldn't fondly, despite the 

915
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,320
fact that it's that it is there 
years ago. 

916
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,160
I I honestly, I have no idea 
where that's gone. 

917
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,120
No, it's, it's, it's quite 
scary, isn't it really To think 

918
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,080
that that's the years ago and 
and the season ended at 

919
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:19,240
Silverstone and again, double 
podium to third places wasn't 

920
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:26,160
quite enough to to beat Renault.
As you said, driver changes 

921
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,840
probably didn't help Vauxhall. 
It's a tricky question I guess. 

922
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,560
But did that taint the season in
any way that you didn't quite 

923
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,560
get the manufacturers or? 
Whatever he talks about, you 

924
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,400
know, the manufacturers is the 
most important thing to win. 

925
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,040
That's bullshit. 
Yeah, that's blue. 

926
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:53,000
Could could anybody remember the
manufacturer that that one in 

927
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,400
9190290394? 
Can you remember the drivers? 

928
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,280
Yes, you're damn right you can 
remember the drivers, you can 

929
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,640
remember what they were driving,
but you cannot remember the 

930
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:08,880
manufacturer's important to 
Vauxhall Ford, BMW, AR and so on

931
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,320
and so forth. 
Yes it is. 

932
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:16,480
But a driver is the one you will
remember, you will remember and 

933
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,360
the only reason in Formula One 
you remember. 

934
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,880
That it's the Red Bull team or 
it's the McLaren team. 

935
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,560
That's plainly bloody obvious. 
Yeah, but it's the drivers 

936
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,040
championship that's most 
important to these guys. 

937
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,560
And whilst they they will earn 
squillions from winning the 

938
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,400
team's award, absolutely 
squillions. 

939
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,240
And they'll move further up the 
pace and so on and so forth. 

940
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,200
There wasn't any of that. 
There was no prize money. 

941
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,840
We didn't get a boat for winning
the championship. 

942
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:53,120
I got a trophy and that was it. 
As I said to you, I I wasn't 

943
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,560
smart enough. 
I didn't have a manager, I 

944
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:04,360
wasn't smart enough to to tyre a
win bonus into the 95 season, 

945
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,440
far less than 89. 
Yeah, I should have put a 

946
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,400
massive bonus in there for 
winning the championship. 

947
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,600
But I'd signed A2 year deal, 95 
and 96. 

948
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:25,360
So I suppose if I'd, I signed 
the contract in 95 or sorry, 94 

949
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,360
from 95 and 96 before I'd even 
driven the car. 

950
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,040
So I'd have been gambling. 
But what I should have done was 

951
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,600
I should have put a clause and 
it said if I win the 

952
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,240
championship it's worth X to me,
you know, and I didn't. 

953
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:39,680
I did. 
I didn't do that. 

954
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:45,000
But that's no real complaint 
because I was paid to do 

955
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,760
something I would probably have 
done for free. 

956
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:53,480
I was lucky enough to be in an 
era of touring car racing that 

957
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,600
we were all paid to do something
we would have done for free. 

958
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,720
You know, there's Formula One 
drivers or sports car drivers, 

959
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,280
there's champions from every 
touring car series around the 

960
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,320
world that came to play in the 
UK. 

961
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:13,520
So it was an honour to be there.
And you know, I, I was paid to 

962
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:14,840
do something I loved. 
I was. 

963
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,240
All I owned was a crash helmet. 
The workshop loaned everything 

964
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,320
else. 
I got a cheque every month and 

965
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,360
that was the end of it, you 
know? 

966
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:29,280
Yeah, Yeah. 
So looking back at 95, would you

967
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,520
say that's your favourite year 
of your competitive career? 

968
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,880
Yeah. 
I mean, I've had, I've had lots,

969
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:43,240
lots of fun in in lots of years.
Even in this sort of the ensuing

970
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:50,040
years, the 979899 with the 888 
Vauxhall, 888 Vectra, it wasn't 

971
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,680
as successful. 
We still won races. 

972
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,920
I'll remember the 98.1 because 
of the Mansell race at Donington

973
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,920
course. 
I think everybody will and, you 

974
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,880
know, people remember different 
things about it. 

975
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,480
I'll remember 89 because that's 
the first time I won the 

976
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:09,560
championship. 
Yeah. 

977
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:16,480
But I will remember 95 fondly 
because that meant a lot to be 

978
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:22,280
gauged against some of the best.
And if there's a pool that's 

979
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,080
run, and there's been many over 
the years who the best tuning 

980
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,720
car driver is, who's the one 
that's remembered most. 

981
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,640
I'm proud of the fact that I 
still maintain that podium 

982
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,360
possession. 
If it's not first, second is 

983
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:42,280
third in that overall picture. 
Yeah, because I didn't set out 

984
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:43,920
to be a professional race 
driver. 

985
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,800
And I don't think I ever was a 
professional race driver because

986
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,760
I had a day job. 
I was running a business all of 

987
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:57,840
the time that I've raced cars. 
Yeah, maybe had I not, I would 

988
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,480
have gone off and the 
opportunity was there. 

989
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:07,280
I mean, I tested sports cars. 
I'd actually gone and tested 

990
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:11,120
NASCAR, I drew Porsche Super 
Cup, as I said to you. 

991
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,320
So there were lots and lots of 
opportunities to do different 

992
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,080
things. 
I had the opportunity to go and 

993
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,880
drive a season, at least one 
season in Australia because I'd 

994
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,960
been, I've done 30 bathos and 
one of the teams I drove for 

995
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,480
over there wanted me to go and 
spend, you know, a season doing 

996
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,120
their championship. 
But at that stage I the young 

997
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,480
family and a business and and so
on. 

998
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:41,440
So was 95 the best in terms of 
results, in terms of visits to 

999
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,720
the podium, in terms of trophies
and balls of champagne? 

1000
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,240
Absolutely. 
And I will forever remember that

1001
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,320
series. 
I'd remember that championship, 

1002
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,520
remember that year. 
But I was lucky enough to have 

1003
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,800
the good years of touring cars 
where there were so many 

1004
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,600
manufacturers and it was 
massive. 

1005
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,440
It was colossal. 
It was, you know, with the three

1006
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,680
World Cups that we did. 
Yeah, I played. 

1007
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,000
That I pulled a sheet when I was
looking for something else the 

1008
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:17,800
other day there the results of 
the first Test, the open test at

1009
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:23,320
Monza for the World Cup in 
whatever year that I was 93. 93 

1010
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,360
Yeah, that. 
And there was something like 60 

1011
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:32,760
cars on the grid and I was 
fastest, never seen the place 

1012
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,320
before in my life. 
And I ran, I ran my finger down 

1013
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:40,000
the the list of people and they 
went on. 

1014
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,320
There must have been like a 
dozen that went on to do Formula

1015
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,560
One. 
There'll be a dozen went on when

1016
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,920
Malone, there was a dozen went 
on when multiple European 

1017
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,280
Touring Car Championships. 
So to be in a position to go and

1018
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:59,240
represent the UK at those events
was just something else. 

1019
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,600
Yeah, we, we probably didn't 
appreciate what we were in in 

1020
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,960
those days. 
We probably took it for granted 

1021
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,320
to some extent, you know? 
Yeah, yeah. 

1022
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,960
One final thing we'd we'd touch 
on now obviously coming to the 

1023
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,640
end of the season that that you 
won and the season that we're 

1024
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:22,080
looking at is did 95 potentially
open any doors? 

1025
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,720
You I know we've chatted before 
about the fact that you had a 

1026
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,040
two year deal and you were 
seeing the new vector in. 

1027
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:32,600
So despite the fact that you had
offers you a commitment to 

1028
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,600
handshake, a deal to you is a 
deal. 

1029
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:41,240
And that will remain any other 
offers that were on the table 

1030
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:45,200
that you had options for that 
that you obviously turned down, 

1031
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:50,080
but did did win in the title 
open any doors that that you 

1032
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,280
could have walked through had 
you chosen to? 

1033
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,200
Yeah, and I don't have very many
regrets about what I've done in 

1034
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,280
touring cars. 
And I'm probably ever so 

1035
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,960
slightly regretful that I told 
the book from Dunlop to shove 

1036
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:08,520
some tyres up his ass once, 
because I then went on to use 

1037
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,080
them in other countries. 
So I've said and done some 

1038
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,040
things I probably wish I hadn't 
said and done. 

1039
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,960
But I signed a contract with the
Vauxhall. 

1040
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,520
First time I'd ever managed to 
get to your deal. 

1041
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:25,760
I wanted security because 
there's a point at the middle to

1042
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,520
the end of the year where 
there's lots of people trying to

1043
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:30,400
steal your drive for the 
following year. 

1044
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,240
So I bet security was good and 
and so on. 

1045
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:38,560
I managed to get to your deal 
and blow me at the end of 95 

1046
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,920
before I'd got my into my 96 
season. 

1047
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:46,640
I win the championship and the 
phone rang significantly. 

1048
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:52,480
And the one that I do, if 
there's a regret in my Turing 

1049
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:59,240
Car career is not accepting this
one, which was the OD drive and 

1050
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:05,440
John Wickham who wanted me to 
drive along with Frank Mueller 

1051
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,440
in, in the collateral to take #1
to the collateral and to do 

1052
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,800
that. 
And I said, John, I really, I'm 

1053
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,040
flattered you, you've asked me 
to do this. 

1054
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:22,680
I have signed A2 year deal with 
Vauxhall. 

1055
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:24,160
And he said, no, don't worry 
about that. 

1056
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,319
We'll just put the lawyers on 
it. 

1057
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:29,040
We'll get you at that. 
I said, well, you probably 

1058
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,720
could. 
I said but when I shake 

1059
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,240
someone's hand then I I will 
stick by that. 

1060
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,640
I had a great relationship with 
the people at Vauxhall. 

1061
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:44,600
I had a wonderful relationship 
with the managing director, you 

1062
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,359
know, for many years. 
And the last thing I was going 

1063
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:51,279
to do was jump ship after I'd 
agreed terms. 

1064
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,760
Is that naive? 
Not in my book. 

1065
01:08:55,760 --> 01:09:02,040
It's not my book, it's honour. 
And I, I stopped by it. 

1066
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,880
Yeah. 
But what that might have opened 

1067
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:09,840
up is Frank Bilder and Emmanuel 
Piero. 

1068
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:14,920
I had raced against them both. 
They're only a little bit 

1069
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,640
younger than me. 
And they then went on to win Le 

1070
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:23,600
Mans four or five times. 
And I just wonder if the 

1071
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:30,000
opportunity to have done during 
Castro there too, and then gone 

1072
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,640
on and done the Le Mans 
situation. 

1073
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:36,399
I don't know if that was an 
auction or not. 

1074
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:43,359
I would love to have done it. 
I've always ignored Ramon, but 

1075
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:45,200
then there was something about 
that. 

1076
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,399
I went to the Classic there a 
few years ago and absolutely 

1077
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:52,160
fell in love over the place and 
wished I'd gone out of my way to

1078
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:54,920
try and find a drive there. 
So is there a regret that I 

1079
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:59,520
didn't do that yet? 
Probably, but there was no way 

1080
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,400
that I was going to walk away 
from an agreed deal with Optal, 

1081
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:06,720
regardless of how clever the 
lawyers were. 

1082
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,080
Well, that just leaves me to say
thank you so much, John, for 

1083
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:20,200
coming to join us for 30 years 
since your iconic title win. 

1084
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:23,440
I'm sorry that it is 30 years. 
It's the if. 

1085
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:28,080
I can't quite believe it myself,
but it's certainly one of the 

1086
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,280
iconic years of Super Touring 
and touring cars in general. 

1087
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:36,360
And and yeah, just thanks again 
for reminiscing with us today on

1088
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,640
the show. 
No, it's been an honour and a 

1089
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,880
pleasure and all I knew was that
30 years ago I didn't have as 

1090
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:50,040
much grey here as I have today. 
But my memory goes back and 

1091
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:51,520
remembers all of those kind of 
things. 

1092
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,960
I don't remember spring settings
and tyre pressures, but I I 

1093
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,320
remember all the good bits. 
But it was a fabulous time, 

1094
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:03,320
fabulous year to be involved in 
turning car racing and I watch 

1095
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,720
it with interest today. 
I watched people like I Sutton 

1096
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:12,080
and Tom Ingram and and so on and
it was such an integral part of 

1097
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:14,920
my life for years that I will 
continue to watch it. 

1098
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,560
So my last dying breath, yeah, 
it's been a pleasure. 

1099
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,160
I've I've really enjoyed it and 
I will I'll continue to listen 

1100
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,320
with interest. 
John, you're a star. 

1101
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,600
Thanks again for for for for 
coming along today. 

1102
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,360
My pleasure. 
And of course, thank you to all 

1103
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:37,760
yous At Home for listening to 
today's episode of Stories from 

1104
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,880
Super Tory. 
As always, if you enjoyed this 

1105
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:45,040
episode, please leave a comment 
on the podcast app of your 

1106
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,360
choice. 
And we'll be back again for more

1107
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:52,080
fun and games next week where 
we'll be looking at the first 

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01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:57,880
ever BTCC race to be held at 
Knock Hill in 1992, where 

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01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:03,160
someone called Colin McRae made 
their only BTCC appearance for 

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01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:06,440
BMW. 
Until then, we'll see you next 

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01:12:06,440 --> 01:12:07,400
week. 
Goodbye.