1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:18,280 Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's 2 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,240 episode of Stories From Super Touring. 3 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,840 This week we're joined by former Peugeot BTCC boss Mick Linford, 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,040 who oversaw Peugeot 7 year stay in the Championship. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,200 From 1992, right up until the French marks departure at the 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,680 end of the 1998 season, it proved to be one of the toughest 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,640 jobs in the BTCC paddock and today Mick is going to join us 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,400 and tell us all about just how tough it was. 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,360 And so, without further ado, Mick, thanks for joining us 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:46,560 today. How are you doing? 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,120 Yeah, I'm very good. Thank you. 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,520 And thanks for asking me to come on your programme. 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,040 Oh, no problem. Thanks for coming onto the show 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,360 you were. Through the throughout the 90s 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,840 you were in the the mainstay of the Peugeot team as the as the 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,600 Peugeot team manager. How did you find yourself in 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,520 such a role within motorsport? Is was that something you always 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,440 aim to be involved in? No, no. 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,840 I was manager of the I've always been involved in motorsport in 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,240 one way or another. I used to have a shop in 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,560 Brackley called European Motorsport, selling motorsport 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,720 parts mainly for car rally cars, and that I was there for 9 years 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,920 and then I went to Silverstone as manager of the racing school 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,160 when it was the John Watson Performance Driving Centre. 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,640 I was there for four years I think it was and I I sort of 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,080 changed the racing school and moved the moved the guys over to 27 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,160 Peugeot. There was in MG Maestros and 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:57,600 Montego's then and the and the fast car was an MG Montego Turbo 29 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,280 it. Was really exciting but it was 30 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,000 when Tom Welkenshaw was involved with Silverstone and they always 31 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,440 said you'll never be able to change. 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,400 But I approached Des O'dell and Brian Luellen, who was Desi's 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,680 boss, to try and get some Peugeots in there and I was 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,720 successful in getting some three O 9 Gtis on the circuit. 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,800 So I was there and then later I got the rally school going. 36 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,760 I sorted out the tracks and that and got additional vehicles so 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,880 we could run the Persians and the rally cars. 38 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:33,920 And then one day Brian Llewellyn, who as I say was 39 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:39,880 Desi's boss, spoke to me down at Silverson and said he said oh 40 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:42,640 does his retiring soon. He says we're looking for a good 41 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:45,840 guy to to replace him. He said that'd be up your street 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,800 and I said no, Silverstone through and through. 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,080 Brian I, you know, I was like a stick of rock Silverstone right 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,280 through. Never thought anymore about it 45 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,960 and two or three days later Keith board who used to 46 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:04,240 coordinate the Peugeot rally challenge and used to be my Co 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,960 driver in rally and he rang me up and said I can't believe you 48 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,360 turned down Desi's job, what you're talking about, he said. 49 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,760 Brian told me that he spoke to you about you've taken over, 50 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,440 potentially taken over from DES and I said no, no, I said he 51 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,080 joked, He said no mate, he was deadly serious. 52 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:23,600 I said look, you better, you better say to Brian, I'm really 53 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,360 sorry, but I didn't take him seriously and obviously I'd love 54 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,440 to talk to him. And about an hour later Brian 55 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,880 rang me and said, oh, I understand that might be 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,080 worthless, having a chat and I said, yeah, I'm sorry Brian. 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,080 Anyway, the next day he come round to Silverstone. 58 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,080 We had lunch in the Pitts Cafe and a week later I went up there 59 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,680 for an interview and another one a week later and they offered me 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:57,080 the job basically said I I I wasn't sort of a real expert at 61 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,480 any specific particular area, but I was well qualified in all 62 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,840 sorts of areas. Special tuning was selling all 63 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,000 the parts and I'd had the shop, European motor sort for nine 64 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,960 years, the racing, I'd raced myself for a couple of years, 65 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,040 the rallying, I'd rallied and built my own car. 66 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,480 So I've got a good grasp of right across the board, which 67 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,040 was actually better than Des had and and they gave me the job and 68 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,840 so it was a bit out of the blue and I wasn't expecting it and I 69 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:31,400 didn't go after it. It was they sort of headhunted 70 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,280 me, which is the dice sounding thing really. 71 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,360 I then moved well. In fact the day I was starting 72 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:46,320 was the week after the very first BTCC race at Alton Park 73 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,840 where Rob Gravitt was driving the the four O 5 GDI and that 74 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:53,840 was their very first race in the championship. 75 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:58,920 So I went to along to see it and as I say I was starting just 76 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,000 over a week later in in Desi's position. 77 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:08,560 I went to Thruxton to see it and it it was, it was a bit of an 78 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,200 eye opener for everybody. And I'm sure all of you will say 79 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,960 there were some obvious flaws there because in the first 80 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:21,120 practice, Rob didn't engine in. In the second practice, Rob 81 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,360 didn't engine in. In qualifying, don't. 82 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,280 Tell me I didn't engine in in the race. 83 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,000 Rob didn't engine in. You know what you know. 84 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,000 What? How many you take? 85 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,720 I thought it whether I was expecting it or not, but you 86 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,600 know what Thruxen is like. It's a very, very long long 87 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,280 bends ran a wet. Some ideas are the same in the 88 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,280 rally cars and thought because they've done tarmac rally and 89 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:46,960 overrepent and things like that it'll be okay. 90 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,040 But of course it ran the mains every time. 91 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,880 And of course the other thing, and I'm not really mocking it, 92 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,480 but I turned up with it in the rally car trailer behind the the 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,440 service van, whereas everybody else has got a got a big Arctic. 94 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,200 So it was a bit look at the newcomers in their rally outfit. 95 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,120 So when I joined, the very first thing I did a week later was 96 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,800 well, they'd already started looking at wet, some dry sump 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,800 systems and I went out and bought a transport. 98 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,600 So at least we looked at the party, if nothing. 99 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,080 Else, as you say there, Peugeot were known really throughout the 100 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,680 80s for rallying. So why do you think they entered 101 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,760 the BTCC in 92? What do you think they were 102 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,920 looking to get out of it? I think. 103 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,440 I think it was exposure at a different level. 104 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,200 I think the rallying, I think they accepted they was getting 105 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,480 massive exposure through the Peugeot Cup and there are other 106 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,480 entries and that Peugeot Rally challenge I should say. 107 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,320 I think they were getting good exposure there. 108 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,920 But the people who are rallying is a different breed to the 109 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,360 people that go to race tracks. And I think in the, in the 110 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,600 board's mind, the people who go to race tracks are more likely 111 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,800 to buy new cars than the people who go to rallies. 112 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,280 I mean, when the guys ran a rally car in the Peugeot 113 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,720 challenge, they probably bought a road car, Peugeot, and then 114 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,840 the service crew, they'd have two or three service crew and 115 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,720 they'd probably buy Peugeot. That'll be second hand. 116 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:28,480 Whereas in the racing side, it tends to be a wealthier type of 117 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,120 person that goes spectating on those events and they're more 118 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,880 likely to appeal for new cars and things like that. 119 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,840 And I think that was a general thing. 120 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,600 So they had a discussion with Des, and Des said Yep, we can do 121 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,680 that. So that's where it started. 122 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,720 You mentioned obviously you came in sort of as the program. 123 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:53,080 It just started in 1992. After that weekend, especially 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,520 with the the issues that that had with the engine and so on, 125 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,000 did it feel like quite a dumb thing to come in and sort of 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,800 challenge to take on or was it sort of one that you felt you 127 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,240 could ease into? First of all, it may have only 128 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,240 been 3 engines and not four. I might be exaggerating. 129 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,720 So you ran out of engines? Well, I don't think so. 130 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,520 I mean, I was coming in a bit blind because I didn't know a 131 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,080 great deal about touring cars. I mean, I've been raising myself 132 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,800 so I knew what the general things about it, but when it 133 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,600 gets to the finer detail, it was a big learning curve. 134 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,880 But at least the faults they got early on were were very obvious 135 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,000 ones and an easy fix were easy in principle. 136 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,559 Obviously the mechanics of it had to design the dry sump and 137 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,720 and get it installed in the cars, but it was an obvious 138 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,280 fault. So once I knew that that could 139 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,440 be fixed then you was almost starting with a clean sheet of 140 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,680 paper and the car itself was was it performed well. 141 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,280 But there was a lot of learning to do for sure and of course we 142 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:09,360 run it in house. The in house side of it, we the 143 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,760 guys had only run rally cars really and tarmac rally cars and 144 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,840 you know they're very quick at times. 145 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,600 So it was a new thing for them as well. 146 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,160 So it was a bit of an eye opener all around but but now we we 147 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,600 could see, you know, we could see we've got hope for the 148 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,880 future for sure once we've dealt with the initial things that 149 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,120 were obviously false. I suppose it was like a bit of a 150 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:33,560 shopping list for you, wasn't it? 151 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,840 In terms of sort of privatising one of the bigger issues, 152 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,200 obviously being one of them. You know, without that your 153 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,640 car's not going to go anywhere, but what you're saying about you 154 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,280 going into in house there and obviously having predominantly 155 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,760 rally guys. Which are phenomenal mechanics 156 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,680 and what they do. Obviously this is like you said, 157 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,400 this is a completely different arena for them to be in 158 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,440 something different. So did you have to get, did you 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,880 have to get external like other mechanics that have been used to 160 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,280 touring cars and sort of integrate them in with your 161 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,280 rally mechanics or is your solely rally guys? 162 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,200 I'm trying to think this is where getting old or forgetting 163 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,600 things comes into it. I'm trying to think of the guy 164 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,200 we did get in, who I should probably think of his name in 165 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,800 about 5 minutes and suddenly shout out. 166 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,560 But we had a guy who oversaw the workshop as it were on the 167 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:20,880 technical side, who'd been involved for years, and 168 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,760 hopefully I'll think of his name in a minute. 169 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,720 So he came in and had an office there to advise us on the 170 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,560 various things and different ways that we should be doing 171 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:31,160 things. So. 172 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,520 So we have some technical assistance and I obviously knew 173 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,240 a lot of people, but he was the main one that came in and and 174 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,600 gave us a bit more of a pointer. The workshop themselves, as I 175 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,880 say, they'd only really done rally cars and tarmac rally 176 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,240 cars, but they were switched on guys, you know they they'd in 177 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,800 the same way and I'd like to adapt my thinking to the racing. 178 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,480 They'd done that and they'd worked hard on it, so they'd all 179 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,120 got their ideas of which way to go, and it just needed a little 180 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,600 bit of control in then to make sure we weren't going off on a 181 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,160 silly tangent just because somebody's got some bright idea 182 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,200 that wouldn't actually work for whatever reason. 183 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,960 As as you say, you sort of came in at the the start of 92 184 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,920 towards the end of that 92 season, the Peugeot was really 185 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,120 starting to get competitive. And and in the TOCA shootout you 186 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,840 do, you did finish third and 4th with with Robin and Ian Flux, 187 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,640 with Ian even getting the fastest lap in that race 188 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,200 funnily, funnily enough. Sorry to interrupt 2 nights ago. 189 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,800 Was it two nights ago? What's today? 190 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,560 Friday night I went to an open evening with Ian Flux. 191 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:42,080 Oh, I yes, yes, he told me about that. 192 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,200 And yeah, it was very entertaining, as you'd expect. 193 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,400 And all credit to Ian, he he did a very big thank you to me for 194 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,000 allowing him to have that car for that race and it's just 195 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,800 unfortunate I couldn't get him on board as a solemn driver for 196 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,520 various political reasons. We had Ian on a few weeks ago 197 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,480 and and he he sort of went into that a bit, which was quite, 198 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,880 quite an eye opener. He's still proud of the fastest 199 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,600 lap though, isn't he? Yeah, he's still very proud of 200 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,200 his. Yeah, there's this politeest way 201 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,160 of putting two fingers up to Rob Rabbit, I think. 202 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:19,880 Is that Shine coming forward? Is he? 203 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,520 No, no. But that that car was getting 204 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,800 competitive towards the end of the year. 205 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,480 Things were then started to look promising for 1993. 206 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,800 Yeah, it it did look, it looked good. 207 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,600 It looked like we was getting somewhere. 208 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,160 But then, of course, other teams in the winter, our only testing 209 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,320 was two days at Snetterton. Yeah, whereas other teams were 210 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,840 going abroad to the sunny climates and spending a week 211 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,200 testing and of course you just couldn't compete with that. 212 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,840 And then when we started the year straight away, it was 213 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,440 obvious that others had moved forward at a faster pace than 214 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,680 we'd been able to. And of course, the French at 215 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:05,640 that time was starting to sort of annihilate everybody else in 216 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,600 their championship. Yeah, so. 217 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,040 So we, you know, there was a lot of questions about why didn't we 218 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,200 do well over that year and the following couple of years, a lot 219 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,400 of questions as to why we weren't doing as well as them. 220 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,600 But we'll probably move on to that end of it. 221 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,360 So was it a money factor, Mick, or is it just the end? 222 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,880 I just was he just. It's been a bit slow after the 223 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,040 out of the blocks or the stupid thing is we were competing in a 224 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,080 championship which was virtually identical regulations to the 225 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,520 French. They were winning races almost 226 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,600 every time out. We weren't. 227 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,360 It was absolutely stupid, and I still maintain how stupid it 228 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,200 was, that we was having to pay for our own development and they 229 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,600 got a winning car and they was paying for development. 230 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,640 Why on earth wouldn't they give us information? 231 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,520 Well it seems daft that you own to build your car when why can't 232 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,600 you just purchase like 3 cars from over from the people that 233 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,840 build them over there and then obviously just get them to spec 234 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,200 for the UK like that. Not make sense from a economical 235 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,560 point of view. From Persia we didn't ever, ever 236 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,120 have a penny with financial assistance from them. 237 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,920 We didn't ever have any technical data to assist us. 238 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,360 There was a question mark over engines once and I organised for 239 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,960 Richard Jones, our engine guy in house, engine guy to take an 240 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,640 engine over to valise to put on their engine. 241 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,120 Diner was a back-to-back with one of their engines. 242 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,960 Richard came back and ours didn't perform as well as 243 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,960 theirs. They ran their engine. 244 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,440 Richard went in the next day and they was just taking their 245 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,440 engine off. Richard put our engine on the 246 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,080 following morning and it's just strange that when their engine 247 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,640 went on they were ducting air in from outside the the engine Dino 248 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,200 cell. When we run our engine, that 249 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,920 ducting had gone, so we just had to use air from in the Dino 250 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,000 cell. So instead of running on cooler 251 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,280 air, it was running on very hot air, which I'm not saying and 252 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,280 ours would have been as powerful as theirs, I'm sure it wouldn't, 253 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,440 but it it just made us look like we haven't got the same kit sort 254 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,960 of thing. The other thing was their the 255 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,400 characteristics of theirs engines was was definitely 256 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,880 different, different. Their peak power was quite a lot 257 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,840 higher than ours, which suited their circuits. 258 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,160 I think having our peak peak power a bit lower was probably 259 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,320 better the way driving over here, but it still wasn't that 260 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,120 ultimate power, you know. So that lack of collaboration 261 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,080 between France and the UK, what, why do you think that was like 262 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,960 from did Persia UK push to try and get it or were they just 263 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,800 leaving it to you to just sort out and not have any 264 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,720 involvement? Because surely Power Persia, UK 265 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,920 had some power. Jean Pierre Nicola I think was 266 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,240 there there then because I used to go over there every couple of 267 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,240 months to sort of for general meetings that people like me 268 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,720 from all over the world used to go over there and and have 269 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,080 meetings. So we discuss all these things, 270 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,000 but it just wasn't even entertained. 271 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,040 There was no pressure put. It was no good hour sort of 272 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,080 board members or whoever you would expect to do it to go and 273 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,720 talk to them. They, you know, they didn't know 274 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,320 with the greatest respect. They wouldn't know what they 275 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,400 were talking about. I tried hard and it was only by 276 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,480 trying hard that I managed to get the engine back-to-back. 277 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,280 They did offer to sell us engines, but Can you believe 278 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,680 they told us they would be customer spec engines, They 279 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,560 would not be full works engines. Wait, does it again? 280 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,040 It doesn't make any sense because it's not like you're 281 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,200 going to compete against each other. 282 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,320 Was it? Absolutely, Absolutely. 283 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,200 Ludicrous. Did they ever give a reason 284 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,040 though? No, no. 285 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,320 No, just just flat out no and no explanation but. 286 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,080 Who who was running The Who was building the French cars? 287 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,920 Was that built out of the factory like the equipment, like 288 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:01,680 you were over here or was it a separate station? 289 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,560 No, no, in Valesi. I mean, Valesi is an amazing 290 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,800 place. That's incredible what they've 291 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880 got there. And as far as I know they still 292 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,560 where they build cars, I don't know, but but yeah, no in house 293 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,839 and they've got two or three Dino cells there. 294 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,119 Oh yeah, they're they're well geared up there, because you 295 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:23,960 can't believe that much. Money. 296 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,359 You're obviously clearly throwing some some money at that 297 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,840 operation, but it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever, 298 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,240 doesn't it? To Not when you think about all 299 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,040 the hard work and development that's already been spent. 300 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,000 It's almost like you have to spend twice as much for you to 301 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,760 do your bit like you're a stand alone. 302 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:38,400 Exactly, we're doing. It and then private tier team, 303 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,920 it's just does matter. It just it just didn't make 304 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,160 sense. And of course, you're always in 305 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,240 the press and everywhere people have been writing letters in. 306 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,760 Why aren't they as good as the French, you know? 307 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,360 And I couldn't go to them and say no, because those friendly 308 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,160 people wouldn't give us any equipment. 309 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,360 But you can say it now, Mick bastards. 310 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,160 There you go. That's it. 311 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,280 Get it out of your system, Mick. This is like a counselling 312 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,800 session. Now you can get it all out. 313 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,400 Yeah. So we had to live with it and it 314 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,240 got to the point, especially after the engine thing and then 315 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,080 then offered to sell us just customer engines. 316 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,840 I mean, it was a case where I had to give up then there was no 317 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,440 point in going down that route because I was going to get 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,680 nowhere. And that proved it. 319 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,520 Yeah. Are you surprised that they 320 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,920 never appeared to value the British Championship that much 321 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,960 as well? Because when you look at the 322 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,480 other major manufacturers of the time. 323 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,280 You know your your Audis, your BMWs, your Alfa Romeos, they all 324 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,560 pulled sort of quite significant support from their their own 325 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,760 home championships in order to sort of win the British 326 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Championship as as the big one. So you mean? 327 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:56,400 Exactly. They they've used what they've 328 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,480 already done out there to to come and do it you. 329 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Know they, you know, even even if it was a case of, you know, 330 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,600 bringing their own team to do it. 331 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,480 Like were you surprised that that Peugeot never really seemed 332 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,080 to to value winning in Britain that much? 333 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,680 I suppose it it wasn't a sudden surprise or anything. 334 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,560 It it, it built up over months and months and even a couple of 335 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,480 years sort of thing. You you grew to accept it. 336 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,920 It wasn't suddenly, well, why aren't we doing this? 337 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,920 I mean, that was being asked every week, every day, almost by 338 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,560 ourselves, and you just sort of drifted into this situation 339 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,840 where we're going to get nothing off them. 340 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,920 So there's no point in asking anymore. 341 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,920 There's no point in trying to get any off because they were 342 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,880 they were adamant about it, you know, it was they looked after 343 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,840 their own interests and that was it. 344 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,920 But it's almost like no one was looking at the brand like this 345 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,760 is all about in my eyes, this is all about making the brand 346 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,400 bigger, more popular household, you know, get it within these 347 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,400 households because we want to sell cars. 348 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,160 This just sounded like a completely selfish act. 349 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,120 Yeah, well, I think it is because. 350 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,240 You know, they weren't thinking about selling cars, were they? 351 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,560 In the UK? Clearly, no. 352 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,120 The people that were were thinking about selling cars in 353 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:12,760 the UK were were the board, and it was them. 354 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,600 If anybody was going to worry about selling cars from Peugeot 355 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,520 Sport in Valise's concern as far as they're concerned, didn't 356 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,680 matter to them. You know, they've got the parent 357 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,640 company selling plenty of cars. We were just on the end of a 358 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,440 stick, you know, we we were of little importance to them, said 359 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,920 in the nicest possible way. But it was a fact, you know? 360 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,320 They treated you to completely like a privateer team, didn't 361 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,200 they? Yeah, absolutely. 362 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,880 Literally a customer team. Yeah, that's exactly what they 363 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,160 did, Yeah. And as far as I'm aware, they 364 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,040 treated nearly everybody else like that. 365 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,880 I think they got a a better relationship with the Italians, 366 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,880 but that's about all. But whether they actually got 367 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:06,640 any engines, I don't know. Whilst you were going on your 368 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,400 own in your own path with the lack of collaboration with 369 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,360 Peugeot France in 93 you did move to A2 Car Team and you 370 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:19,160 brought in Eugene O'Brien alongside Rob Gravitz. 371 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,560 Were there any other drivers in contention for that seat? 372 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,480 I mean like we've already sort of touched on flux. 373 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,400 He was hoping to be in that car for 93 but ended up in a in a in 374 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,920 a Silco Lean Peugeot with a Leeds, a Leeds taxi driver 375 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,760 engine. That was his description, was 376 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:38,600 it? Yes. 377 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,560 No, it the bottom line is Eugene came in and brought him a lump 378 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,320 of money from auto glass or to auto wind screens or to auto 379 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,840 wind screens. Yeah, he he bought a big bundle 380 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,360 of money and that's what got his seat. 381 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,240 We wanted to or I wanted to run a second car, but there was no 382 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,560 budget to run it in house. You know, money coming from in 383 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,800 house. So the only way we could do it 384 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,920 was find somebody who got a big enough lump of money to bring 385 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,840 with them and and that's how Eugene got his seat. 386 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,160 He was. He's quite an unfortunate chap, 387 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,960 wasn't he, in the sense that he always seemed to be having on 388 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,640 the the the back end of accidents or or caught up in 389 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,680 someone else's problems? Yeah, Eugene I knew from years 390 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,800 ago when I was manager at the racing school at Silverstone, 391 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,480 Eugene was one of the regular Silverstone instructors, right? 392 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,760 So I knew him, knew him well. But yeah, there was one or two 393 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,080 situations. I think. 394 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,880 I forget which how early on in the season it was. 395 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:46,040 But at Silverstone, on the club circuit, he drove up the inside 396 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,720 of everybody else at Beckett's maggots. 397 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,680 Whichever the one is that comes back on himself, outbreaked 398 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,320 himself, and then ploughed straight into the Nissan and 399 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,320 somebody. Else and that that wasn't a good 400 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,800 start. So yeah, we had one or two 401 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,920 issues with Eugene and and when Eugene was with Patrick Watts, 402 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,560 Patrick was always pretty quick and Eugene quite often was not 403 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,640 on the pace. And I can remember once, I mean 404 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,680 he won't appreciate me telling this but I can remember once at 405 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:27,320 Alton Park on the Tessdale the prior to the race meeting he 406 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,040 came in and he was slower, marked amount slower than than 407 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,400 Patrick in the car. So he said he sum it up with the 408 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,400 car. You know, you haven't got the 409 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,280 same spec on mine as you've got on Rob's, on Patrick's. 410 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,400 So when they came in, I said to Eugene, I said, do you mind if 411 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,600 Patrick is out in your car? He may be able to identify 412 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,760 something where the difference is, where it's wrong. 413 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,280 No, no, he said good, put him in it, put him in it. 414 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,240 So Patrick got in it. Well, Patrick is about a foot 415 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,360 taller than Eugene, so seat was in the same place, so Patrick's 416 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,800 knee. Knees were up either side of the 417 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,560 steering wheel. On his second lap he was two, 418 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,680 just under 2 seconds quicker than Eugene's fastest lap. 419 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,760 So he came in. Patrick threw his helmet down on 420 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,480 the ground in the corner, went to his car and drove off back to 421 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,200 the hotel. He was all right the next day, 422 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,920 but he was he was not happy about that situation. 423 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,200 I can imagine. So I mean, like you say, Patrick 424 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,280 joined you in 94. What does a driver like Patrick 425 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,040 bring to a team like Peugeot? Obviously a vastly experienced 426 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,440 racer. Well, he's obviously a character 427 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:49,160 as you well know, enthusiasm. I mean he's had lots of drives 428 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,240 but never had been able to sort of just break into the the upper 429 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,640 level such as the British Tory guy Championship. 430 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,680 I can remember phoning him to tell him he'd got the drive and 431 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,960 he was, if I remember rightly and sorry, Patrick if I've got 432 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,480 it wrong, but if I remember rightly, I found him and he was 433 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,880 on his way back from the hospital to say that his wife 434 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,760 was pregnant or something. So it like it was like one of 435 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,400 the best days of his life sort of thing. 436 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,800 So to know enthusiasm, determination, Always. 437 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,040 Flat out. Always. 438 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,680 Yeah, he wasn't always the best guy on gearboxes, but but other 439 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,720 than than that he was. He was a great guy to have on 440 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,000 the team. At one point in that season 94, 441 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,880 it looked like Peuge sort of you know behind the the all dominant 442 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,440 Alphas early on that sort of best of the rest you know 443 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,920 second, third, fastest Karl Patrick sort of finished right 444 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,400 behind the Alphas at Brands Hatch. 445 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,000 Into the second-half of the season that that kind of fell 446 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,080 away with Brusselt BMW on coming a bit did the team just sort of 447 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,680 all the way with development, especially as sort of the aero 448 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,200 rules were changed and so on. For our season, we we continued 449 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520 as best we could to develop the cars, but it was a different 450 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,840 world for us compared to the likes of the alphas and all 451 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,000 that. Yeah, we just couldn't commit 452 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,560 the time, the money, and I suppose we have to admit we just 453 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,560 hadn't got the knowledge they were paying staff to come in who 454 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,160 was incredibly knowledgeable about these things. 455 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,480 We just couldn't do that sort of thing. 456 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,160 We had some great people working for us but with all due respect 457 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,320 to them, they hadn't got the experience or the know how or as 458 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,800 I say the the finances available to develop the car in any way in 459 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,240 comparison with with the alphas and such like. 460 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,720 And this is where the collaboration with France would 461 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,720 have come into it, because that's exactly what they did. 462 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:02,440 All the other manufacturers did it from where it all began. 463 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,080 And then the, you know, the touring car wasn't the first 464 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,440 season of racing they've come into. 465 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,600 They've just used out all the knowledge and all the experience 466 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,520 they have there and they've just entered another championship in 467 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,720 the UK and and hit the ground running. 468 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,480 France, France could quite simply have built, I don't know 469 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,200 how many cars they built. Let's say they built three 470 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,600 around cars. They could have built 5 cars and 471 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,320 sold them two cars. There you go. 472 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,640 They're set up for this circuit. You know, develop it around your 473 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,760 own circuits. But now it was just a big shut 474 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,040 the door. Just going back to the aero side 475 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,680 of it, Nick, what do you, you know around the aero additions 476 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,640 that all the teams were bringing in? 477 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,360 What did you make of the Alpha wings at the time? 478 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:45,120 Wow. They 'd obviously done a lot of 479 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:47,120 work in a in a wind tunnel and that. 480 00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:49,920 And again, our cars never been in a wind tunnel. 481 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,440 The ones in France probably have the ones in France, that's for 482 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,880 sure. So all you could do is stand 483 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,360 back and watch them develop their car or watch the 484 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,000 development of the cars and the pace of the cars and we could 485 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,000 only do you know what we were able to do. 486 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:15,040 I know it sounds like poor man, poor team sort of thing, but but 487 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,800 to a certain extent it was a poor team. 488 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,400 You know, we were quicker than the privateers in the majority 489 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:27,080 of cases but but to compete with such likes as the alphas, we 490 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,360 should no chance we we don't get me wrong we we didn't have a 491 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,600 defeatist attitude at all. We were extremely determined. 492 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,840 Everybody in the team was including the drivers and we 493 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,680 wanted to bloody do well. But you just we weren't able to 494 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,840 compete with the level of development that most of the 495 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,480 other teams were achieving or works teams anyway. 496 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,240 When you could see things like that with the wings coming into 497 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,920 play and all the arrow bits, was it a case of right? 498 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,040 Make a note of that Monday morning. 499 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,520 We're getting onto it and then trying to do something with your 500 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,800 own car based on what you were seeing the others do and just 501 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,920 knowing that if you don't, you're going to fall even 502 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,760 further behind. There were small tweaks, but I 503 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,200 have to say we didn't ever seriously look at aerodynamics 504 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,400 in the way that anybody else was, which we just hadn't got. 505 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,200 You know, we could, we could add something that looked like 506 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,000 somebody else, but then if we hadn't got you're not using a 507 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,040 wind tunnel, we wouldn't know whether it was a benefit or not 508 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,960 a benefit. So you've got to be careful that 509 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,520 you don't actually make yourself slower. 510 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,440 Rather faster, yeah. Yeah, that year as well. 511 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,400 I hate to bring it up again, but that that was the Aiello started 512 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,600 winning. He won the title in in France 513 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,080 with the Four O 5. You're rubbing it in now, Alex. 514 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,240 I know, I know. But. 515 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,920 Was I mean how demotivating was that? 516 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,920 Was it demotivating at all? You know, it it it's a that's a 517 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,800 really hard position to imagine to be in demotivating, to be the 518 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,520 wrong world. Just frustrating. 519 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,240 Yeah, I think is a better word for it because there was nothing 520 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,200 we could do about it. And what made it even more 521 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,000 frustrating is that everybody was asking us why, you know, 522 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,160 they're winning. Why aren't you? 523 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,360 You know, you go in the press and reports on, on touring cars, 524 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,000 in whether it was all sport, motor news or something, 525 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,880 somebody would be having a dig. You know, French Aiello sort of 526 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,480 won this and the French are doing it. 527 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,400 Why aren't Britain, you know? And I in my position, I couldn't 528 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,840 turn around and say because we're not getting enough money, 529 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,240 you know that because against my employees then you've got to be 530 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,320 very tactful how you respond to these things. 531 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,760 But the bottom line is, as I say, the winter testing, you can 532 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,280 get a lot of work done over four or five months in the winter and 533 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,040 you could could potentially make a good step forward in your 534 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,320 pace. Or these people can spend a 535 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,640 couple of separate weeks in Italy or France or somewhere in 536 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,440 the sun doing it. But two, two or three days at 537 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,880 Snatton, you, you don't get much from that. 538 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,080 No, I. Mean you must constantly be 539 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,320 getting asked the same questions like week after can't believe 540 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,040 that that separation between France and the UK. 541 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,520 But it must be worse for you. And because the the questions 542 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,720 are going to be asked even more so from your drivers that you 543 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,600 had in the team like that must be saying like why have we not 544 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,880 you know that that must have been an endless thing for you 545 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,080 especially when the you know drivers can be known into your 546 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,920 people. Kind of I'd like to have Patrick 547 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,360 and that they were well aware of the situation and they were well 548 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,720 aware that we couldn't do anything about it. 549 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,400 As I say I used to go over there every sort of six weeks a couple 550 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,480 of months and have a meeting and every single time I would 551 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,480 request you know technical information supplier parts fell 552 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,520 on deaf ears. Yeah, it was a great respect to 553 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,760 them. You know, they did it in a very 554 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,760 sort of friendly way, but it was closing the door on anything to 555 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,480 do with their cars. Was it sort of doubly 556 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,720 frustrating as well given the especially with how you started 557 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,680 that that 1994 season that it didn't to be a case of the 558 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,800 people there or already about, but just purely? 559 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,400 If you, you know, do you feel like if you'd had that funding 560 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,120 you you could have taken the fight to maybe Alpha or BMW in 561 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,080 the second-half for 94 as it was. 562 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,760 I think if if we'd have had the funding, there'd like to be 563 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,040 quite a lot of things different. I would, I believe I would have 564 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,840 had to take on some additional staff that were sort of 565 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,840 specialists in certain areas, whereas all our guys, and I'm 566 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,080 not knocking them, they all gave it 100% and they were fantastic. 567 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,640 But their knowledge was based on tarmac, rally cars, rally cars 568 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,240 and it was a big, big step up and they did a bloody good job, 569 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,760 don't get me wrong. But to take it that extra step 570 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,040 forward to get us in a competitive position? 571 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,960 Yeah, a budget twice as much as what I've got. 572 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,120 That's it. I mean the the, the, the talk 573 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,000 was that Alfa Romeo that year had a budget of £5,000,000, so. 574 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,280 How much is your budget, Nick? Three and six months I. 575 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:20,440 Bet he felt like it, didn't it? It funnily enough, I went to my 576 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,280 storage unit today and got some papers out because I thought I'd 577 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,000 got the details of the budgets on it, but it was only the 578 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,360 budgets from the rally side, not the race side. 579 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,880 So, and like I said, I'm old and I can't remember exactly how 580 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,800 much it was. Into 95 then Eugene left the 581 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,560 team and you you were joined by Simon Harrison in the second 582 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:48,560 four O 5 Patrick had a. Semi competitive season, couple 583 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,080 of podium finishes, finished 10th in the standings. 584 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,960 I suppose it's always going to be tricky for a new coming to 585 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,480 come into that sort of situation. 586 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,960 And Harrison struggled a tough year for him. 587 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,560 Yeah, I mean, Simon got the the drive again, I'm afraid, because 588 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,040 he he brought a lump of money with him. 589 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,159 Yeah. So yeah, he he struggled. 590 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,000 I mean, he'd done National Saloon Car Cup is it? 591 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,080 Did they call it National Saloon? 592 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,560 Yeah, National Saloon Car Cup. He drove in that and did it very 593 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,520 well. But touring cars, whether it was 594 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:28,320 the additional competitiveness or whether, you know, the car 595 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,120 didn't ever really suit his driving style, you know, for 596 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,480 getting getting to the finer bits and pieces to make it 597 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,239 perfect for him, I don't know. But no, as you say, Patrick had 598 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,159 a reasonable year. Patrick's got massive 599 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:52,320 determination and I don't think Simon had quite the same amount 600 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,560 of. I don't want that to sound like 601 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,360 I'm being negative to him, because I'm not. 602 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,760 No, it's just two, Two different people's ability, yeah. 603 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,560 Yeah, he was. He was obviously quite a decent 604 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,520 peddler because I I remember he came back into Class B much 605 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,800 later on when the when the series moved away from super 606 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,880 touring and I think he won the Class B title. 607 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,200 We certainly won races in a three O 6, so he obviously had 608 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,920 talent, but that's a really tough situation to be thrown 609 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,200 into I guess. Yeah. 610 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,080 I think the characteristics of the 306 suited him down to the 611 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,320 ground, the size of it, the characteristics of the handling 612 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,600 and everything. Whereas moving into the the 613 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,320 touring cars, it just didn't suit him in the same way. 614 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,400 He didn't really ever fully adapt to it in the way that, 615 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,880 well Patrick will get in anything and be extremely 616 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,200 determined. However, it handled sort of 617 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,280 thing. Coming into to 1996 then, and on 618 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,840 the face of it at the start of the year, it was kind of a new 619 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,880 era of feeling you had. You had Tim Harvey. 620 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,080 Former champion coming in replacing Simon Harrison. 621 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,720 You had new sponsorship with Butal and then the new Four O 6 622 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,680 model as well, but it wasn't. Wasn't the greatest year, pretty 623 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,680 tough year for the team? I mean, were there, were there 624 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,320 any major reasons for the struggles? 625 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,560 Was it? Was it just purely struggling 626 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,440 with a new car or? Was it the same scenario as what 627 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,600 you had with the floor of hardwood dealing with France but 628 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,800 just with the new model? God, it sounds like I'm a 629 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,960 winger. Doesn't it keep using the same 630 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,600 excuse? No, I mean we we started with 631 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,080 the the four O 6. Patrick and Tim were a great 632 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,160 pairing, both as determined as one another. 633 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,560 I got an extremely well with both of them and we were hoping 634 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,200 that we'd be able to make a major step forward. 635 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,000 But we did everything we could but but still we were just that 636 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,040 little bit behind everybody else, no specific reason. 637 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:56,520 We tried various things to to make a difference, but and we 638 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,760 did make differences, but of course everybody else were 639 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,120 making differences as well and you still have the same 640 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,640 situation with things like wind tunnels and that if you were 641 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,880 able to do anything aerodynamically. 642 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,080 With that season that and I, and I don't mean this in a in a 643 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,960 disrespectful way at all, but you, there were teams like 644 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,920 Williams, Formula One, there were TWR coming into the sport 645 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,640 and and and and really bringing on the level of touring cars to 646 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,000 to new heights. So it must have really been a 647 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,760 struggle for a team that was still running out of the 648 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,480 Coventry factory to go up against the likes of Williams 649 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,280 and and and these F1 teams. Yeah, it it was. 650 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,560 I can, I can always remember that going back to Alpha days, 651 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,080 going at Brands Hatch, seeing them get there, whatever you 652 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,040 call it, the flatbed flatbed out to set the car up, but the whole 653 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,120 thing was carbon fibre and I mean everybody else has got 654 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,240 aluminium ones, but no, theirs was carbon fibre. 655 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,920 So yes, coming on a few years later, these very serious teams, 656 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,000 yeah, their, their, their level of technology and potential 657 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,480 development was higher than ours and their budget was much 658 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,400 bigger. And I'm really sorry that I keep 659 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,680 blaming everything on the budget. 660 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,520 It's not just the budget, but it was a major contributing factor 661 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,520 and if anybody looks at it seriously and how how serious 662 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,360 that championship was, then they they have to accept that. 663 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,000 If you haven't got as much money by a long way, then it's going 664 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,640 to make a difference, you know. Absolutely. 665 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,960 You can't make miracles. Happen and did the bosses that 666 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,280 you were dealing with in terms of where you the money was 667 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,280 coming from, obviously the you know, the the board or the 668 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,080 directors, whoever your main people were at Peugeot UK, did 669 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,240 they understand that as a case of look? 670 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,680 This is this is the money we have. 671 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,480 We can't get any more. We understand that you could 672 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,720 probably do a better job if you had more money, but we can't 673 00:38:57,720 --> 00:38:59,760 give you any more money. Was it as what? 674 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:00,840 Was it as straightforward as that? 675 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,880 Once a month I had to go to a meeting where the head of each 676 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,600 department was sat around the table with key board members and 677 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,760 that did each other a little bit talking about what's happened 678 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,680 and and obviously I had to say about where we were finishing, 679 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:19,120 we weren't finishing. The board on the marketing side 680 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,360 was still using the events for hospitality and taking groups 681 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000 there sort of thing. But of course, even when they 682 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,600 took a group there which was good entertainment for them, we 683 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,160 still weren't getting the results that we ideally wanted. 684 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:40,800 And our best ally was Brian Llewellyn, who was, as I say, my 685 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,120 boss at the time. He was. 686 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,680 I can't remember his exact position, Public relations 687 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,880 director, because we came, our department came under public 688 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,240 relations rather than marketing, which it normally would. 689 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,560 But Brian was public relations director and he was a true 690 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,040 enthusiast and that helped us massively to continue running 691 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,280 the cars because he sat on the board level and he managed to 692 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,160 convince them that we should still be doing it. 693 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,800 But, but, but yeah, there was some frustration there. 694 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,480 But as I say, Brian was was a very good ally to us and he came 695 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,040 to every race and he was a good guy suddenly not with us 696 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,160 anymore, but but yeah, he helped us through those struggling 697 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,960 times should we say? There's there's an article that 698 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,360 Andrew Charman wrote for Super Touring Magazine following the 699 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,320 build of the four oh sixes. And at that point you were, you 700 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,320 were quoted as hoping that Peugeot, France would be 701 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,040 building or certainly be involved in the build of the 702 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,240 four or sixes for the UK. I'm guessing that that was just 703 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,160 another point blank, no? Then from from what we've heard, 704 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,840 they seemly didn't want to collaborate, collaborate with 705 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,400 you in any way. Absolutely. 706 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,280 And I mean it was in a much friendlier way than what it 707 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,360 sounds, but it was a closed door situation. 708 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,960 We got nothing off them, no finance, no technical 709 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,920 assistance, no opportunities to buy engines other than customer 710 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,960 and customer spec engines. We got nothing. 711 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,200 It was as simple as that. And then in sort of towards the 712 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:25,240 end of 96 the and into 97 there was the switch from running the, 713 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,600 the, the cars yourself from the factory. 714 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,120 To hand in the the running of the team to to of the cars to 715 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,440 MSD. What was the reason behind the 716 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,400 the the switch to to outsourcing to MSD? 717 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,760 I think David can't think of his name now. 718 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,360 David who was the sort of boss of MSD. 719 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:50,160 He obviously taught the good, talked and convinced us that 720 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,840 with their level of technology. Excuse me, although I don't 721 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,720 think from memory they've done hardly racing, but they've done 722 00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:03,440 World Rally Championship and at World Rally Championship then 723 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:09,560 you've obviously got a higher level of technology involved so 724 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,080 that their technical know how was quite a little, a lot 725 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,480 better. It it was an opportunity to take 726 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,000 the whole lot out of house. We could still run rally cars in 727 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,400 house which of course we were second were second nature to us 728 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:29,080 and because there was so many question marks as to why aren't 729 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,960 we doing well, why aren't we doing well and every other team 730 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,720 bar none at that time was outsourcing their teams. 731 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,680 It was an opportunity for us to still compete and not have the 732 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,240 budget taken away from us completely. 733 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:51,960 So let's try this sort of thing and we obviously, well I 734 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,840 obviously trying to push the point that we you know this 735 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,120 should give us some better results if the board would 736 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,280 approve us and as I say because everybody else is outsourced, it 737 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,000 sounded like it was the way to go. 738 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,280 Coming into that 1997 season it it sort of initially felt like 739 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,560 that that switch did work. Sort of big upturn in form 740 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,800 before I said Harvey gets 2 podium places and and definitely 741 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,600 one of, you know, probably one of the best for Peugeot in that 742 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,640 area. In the wet at Fruxton, you know 743 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,880 probably one or two more that said he won. 744 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,920 That was that sort of a joyous day for the team, but but also 745 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,440 frustrating to have just missed out on that win. 746 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,160 Joyous for sure. I think I stood on the pit wall 747 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,600 and said to the guys, I said if we win this I'm going to break 748 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,440 down in tears because it had been hard work and we didn't 749 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,480 ever think, well we didn't ever achieve it, no. 750 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,840 I mean obviously it would have been fantastic to have another 751 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,760 couple of laps and but we were just extremely pleased as you 752 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:06,400 can imagine with the result and you know it was, which is the 753 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,400 whole team up. You can imagine how when you 754 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,880 struggle so much, when you actually get a result, it's just 755 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,400 fantastic. Yeah, I mean it was a that that 756 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,360 race was a wet and dry mix race weekend. 757 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,760 The the both the races that day were were mixed conditions. 758 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,400 I mean it does show, I suppose that that sort of sometimes that 759 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,080 experience that know how of maybe when to switch from the 760 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,160 from the dry to the wet. You can't buy that sometimes. 761 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,600 You know. No matter how much money you've 762 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,240 got to throw at something, you still need good people in the 763 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,000 team, in the team to perform something like that, You know, 764 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,520 Yeah, those sort of decisions are major decisions, yeah. 765 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,440 And somebody's got to stick their neck out sometimes because 766 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,760 somebody's going to say, well, put it on wets. 767 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,480 And we're all sort of looking at the sky and saying, what are you 768 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,440 talking about? It's just got somebody's got 769 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,520 other balls to do it. And making that decision worked 770 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,320 a couple of times for us. There was another one at 771 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,360 Snetterton. Naturally, they came in the pits 772 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,840 and went on to wets. I think we finished second on 773 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:07,960 that one. Yeah. 774 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,720 But as I say, you've got somebody who's going to say do 775 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,040 it, that decision. And from experience, I think 776 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,840 when you're not in the fastest car, always find it an easy 777 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,880 decision to make and you'll always see some of the 778 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,600 underdogs, whether it be motorcycle racing, touring cars, 779 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,720 whatever, or even Formula One even, you know, like hassle to 780 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,640 throw or gamble as opposed to the others or sort of go what 781 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,360 the years are doing. So at least they're all in the 782 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,000 same boat. But it's always an easy decision 783 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,880 to make and it always makes it an exciting one. 784 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,000 But every now and again it works. 785 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,840 Yeah, exactly. You've got and without taking 786 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:42,960 the risk you're never going to know why. 787 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,120 You could, you could, you could do the same as everybody else, 788 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,240 but finishing the position everyone's expecting to finish 789 00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:50,160 in or take a gamble if it doesn't work, you're never going 790 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,560 to be punished for it. You can only be victorious if it 791 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,560 works your way, but just go on to the 97 season which was a 792 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,720 final year for Patrick with with your squad in BTCC. 793 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,600 Obviously you've already touched on the fact that what he brought 794 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,160 to the team and how good he was to have within the team, but was 795 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,760 it sad that it seemed to like there's a fallout towards the 796 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,240 end of his sort of season? You know his end of his days 797 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:16,440 with Persia? Yeah, Patrick got got a bit 798 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,800 upset with me over it. I mean he he said I ruined his 799 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,320 career but all I did was I didn't re sign his contract so I 800 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,840 didn't do anything at all to him and I get on fine with him now. 801 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,040 But at the time he was very upset but just not re. 802 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,800 His contract has run out so I didn't sack him. 803 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,640 I just decided to sign somebody in another direction. 804 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,040 And did the factory have any involvement or the board members 805 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,760 in in terms of driver signing or was that purely down to? 806 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,520 Obviously, you know we've, we've already spoken about people 807 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,600 bringing money to the team, which obviously is a massive 808 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,840 help when you're not one of the bigger teams with the bigger 809 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,280 budgets obviously that is needed and that you still, you know, 810 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,120 that's, you know, all forms of motorsport now, even in Formula 811 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,000 One, but. Did you did? 812 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,680 Was the sole decision yours or was it a discussion you'd have 813 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,400 with the board? Would you tell them who you're 814 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,640 going to have or was it a combination with my superior at 815 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,040 the time, but but ultimately it was my decision, yeah. 498 816 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,200 Patrick's replacement was Paul Radysich. 817 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,960 Obviously double world champion. Won the the the two World Cups. 818 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,600 At Donington and Monza, I mean, there's not many drivers that 819 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,600 that have that on this CV. What a what a driver to sign. 820 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,600 Yeah. And I think what helped, that 821 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,400 was his his current wife. I want to say current. 822 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,880 I'm sure it's. Yeah, it still is. 823 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:50,760 It still is, yes. His wife was actually the PR 824 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,480 girl that worked for me. Yeah, so, so there was lots of 825 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:59,400 discussions and talks with Patricia, you know, and she 826 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,480 could go home and talk to talk to Paul and it made it a very 827 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,520 nice family type thing for him to come and drive for us. 828 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,600 So I think that helped having Patricia working for us as well. 829 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,160 But, but again it it was a struggle. 830 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,200 We we didn't have massive success or anything like that. 831 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,840 It was just quite hard work all the way through. 832 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,480 But we did everything we could with the budget we got. 833 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,040 Paul got certainly a bit frustrated at times. 834 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,280 He tried with his engineer some some different things. 835 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,040 Sometimes they worked a little bit, sometimes they didn't. 836 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,120 But I mean, they they both did the best they could within the 837 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:47,920 limits of what the car was capable of. 838 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,280 Yeah. When we spoke to Paul at at 839 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,480 Brands Hatch for the Super Touring Power Festival in in 840 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,360 July, he said that he'd obviously he'd signed A2 year 841 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,320 deal with you guys and the hope was that there would be a there 842 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,240 would be a French car coming along for 1999. 843 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,920 How, how realistic was that ever to happen? 844 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,680 And was that just the same hope you'd have each year or was 845 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,480 there actually any any sort of little hints that this was 846 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,320 coming or was it like, yeah, I'm just hoping, you know, I think 847 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,560 it we'd given up on that. But then when we're signing 848 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:33,320 Paul, you know ex world champion, I tried to use that as 849 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,920 as a bit more of a. Bargain chip to suggest that you 850 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,680 know we're now in a completely different position. 851 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,640 We've got ex world champion driving for us, etcetera, 852 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,280 etcetera, but it was still closed doors in the end. 853 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,320 Yeah, because that's some discussion, but he didn't get 854 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,960 anywhere. That's that's one hell of a 855 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,000 driver lineup, isn't it? Where you've got double world 856 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,160 champion Radisich and in the other car, 92 champion Harvey. 857 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,400 You know that's you can't really do much better than that. 858 00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:04,760 No, no. But but also from a budget point 859 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,880 of view make it must have been raised because obviously you got 860 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,360 like world champion and team, both champions in their own 861 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,760 right. Folks are from a budget point of 862 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,000 view that must have, you need, must have needed more driver 863 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,840 wages than you've ever needed throughout the whole time. 864 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,760 No question about that. So how? 865 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,440 Like how? How does that discussion like, 866 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,360 how does that go down? Yeah, I mean, the budget or the 867 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,400 biggest lump of budget that came from Peugeot didn't actually 868 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,720 come from the board as an allocated amount of money. 869 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,800 There was actually a levy, if that's what you want to call it, 870 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,400 on each brand new car. I genuinely can't remember how 871 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,600 much it was, but let's say for argument's sake it was £50. 872 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,040 I can't remember what it was. I seem to remember the figure of 873 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,880 137,000 cars were sold in one particular year. 874 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,680 So every dealer was told there was going to be this levy on 875 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:07,560 every car that came in. And the excuse was that 876 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,920 obviously this is going to enable you to get extra, extra 877 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,760 sales because the exposure we was going to get in the race in 878 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:15,280 and on television and things like that. 879 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:22,240 So you get 137,000 * 50 LB or whatever it was and all of a 880 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:24,720 sudden you've got a big lump of budget there. 881 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,840 So Peugeot themselves, certainly for the first few years didn't 882 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,000 actually put a penny in. They did into the rally, into 883 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,720 the rally budget. But they we ran on this, this 884 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:40,120 levy money. I mean, don't get me wrong, they 885 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,760 did start throwing money at it eventually because it was just 886 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,160 getting so expensive. It was the only way we could 887 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,560 survive, but certainly for the 1st and again I can't, I 888 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,800 genuinely can't remember the first two or three years anyway. 889 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,720 The only money came from the levy on the cars and when there 890 00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:02,560 was discussions at board level about the money that was sort of 891 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,840 spent, they was always saying we put in, I don't know, let's say 892 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,680 £1,000,000 but don't take that as fact. 893 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,080 We've earned 1,000,000 lbs. They didn't put in a million 894 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,720 pounds, it was the dealers that put the money in. 895 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,520 But of course, because it just happened every year, it just got 896 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,360 taken for granted and board level it was case of Peugeot put 897 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,120 this number of money in, but they didn't. 898 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,200 It didn't affect them at all really. 899 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,360 Genius idea really when you think about it like it was the 900 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,040 IT was the benefit of the dealers as well as the the brand 901 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,680 because obviously the dealers were earning money out of 902 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,240 selling cars. So it was a genius idea. 903 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,160 Do you think all manufacturers had that same philosophy, like 904 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,040 sort of business model? Don't know for sure, but I think 905 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,240 some of them did. I mean, it was a sensible thing 906 00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:50,440 to do, wasn't it? It was an easy option. 907 00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:53,520 You know, yeah, completely dealer and honestly I can't 908 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,320 remember how much it was, but if you turn around with a dealer or 909 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,400 something, they put an extra £50 on each car. 910 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,040 I want it, Sir, I don't know what it was then 1518 grand car 911 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,280 extra 50 quids, neither in nor there. 912 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,000 So they just, yeah, OK, we'll deal with that. 913 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,640 With 1998 as well, obviously you mentioned it was a year of 914 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,880 struggle. Initially sort of there were 915 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,320 some strong results. Paul got a four foot at 916 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,920 Silverstone, but sort of lots of engine issues that year as well, 917 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:27,440 the recurrence of the first year 92 and that's what what what was 918 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,960 sort of the nature of the issues and and how did that sort of 919 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,960 affect morale and and so on. Yeah, I mean, I've got to be 920 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,200 honest, I can't even remember where we were getting our 921 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,880 engines done at that time because in the early years we 922 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,280 did them all of in house. And then Richard Longman used to 923 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,680 do some engines for him. Do you know Richard? 924 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,960 Richard Longman specialized in minis and things like that. 925 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,760 And he did a lot in the very early days. 926 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:01,720 We did a piece with Paul Rizbridger and well, Paul 927 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,440 wouldn't know the MSD side of it. 928 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,640 Yeah, he said. MSD were forced to carry out 929 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,520 multiple engine changes throughout. 930 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,520 There was 5 engine swaps at Croft. 931 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,160 And Mount Tune took over. That's right. 932 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:18,600 Mount Tune. Yeah, yeah. 933 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,880 There were five engine swaps at Croft and then after Croft the 934 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,560 decision was taken for Mount Tune to take over. 935 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,440 I find it difficult to believe we'd had five engines. 936 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,680 For two cars, A bit like what I was saying with Ruxin. 937 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:35,960 Yeah, yeah. Run out of engines. 938 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,160 I could potentially believe that spare engine for each car, but 939 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,080 anyway, that's what he says. I'm sure Paul remembers it. 940 00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:46,920 He's younger than me, so he'll remember better. 941 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,720 I mean, I hate to mention it again, but meanwhile whilst all 942 00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:53,960 this is happening, you know, lots of engines blowing up, not 943 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,440 really many positions, but Aiello's winning the STW in 944 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,240 Germany. I'll. 945 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,680 Tell you what, Mickey's got it in for you. 946 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:09,240 But it was it was no great surprise that towards the end of 947 00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,760 98 it would, it was realized that Peugeot were looking to 948 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,160 pull out of the Championship. I mean, were you surprised? 949 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,960 And how early did you know that this was on the cards? 950 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,800 I wasn't surprised, no. I mean, it was inevitable, but 951 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,640 how early on, I can't remember to be honest. 952 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,560 It it's a bit like when they actually closed the department 953 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:42,720 eventually they told me in I think in early November, but 954 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,440 told me I couldn't tell anybody they was going to close the 955 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,720 department at Christmas. So I had to supposedly not say 956 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,120 anything to all the people that were coming to me with their 957 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,840 budgets, their own departments. I had to say, yeah, yeah, that 958 00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:01,920 sounds great, knowing full well. So I wasn't happy the last the 959 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,120 last six months. Difficult position for you to be 960 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,400 in, Yeah, Yeah. And a couple of the people I was 961 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,440 close with, two or three of them, you know, did get other 962 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,360 jobs only because I actually ticked them off sort of thing. 963 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:20,840 Yeah, yeah, it it's it, it was sort of inevitable when you know 964 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,840 it was, it was mentioned towards the end of the era that Ford 965 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,560 spent over 12 million on their their their, their Mondeo budget 966 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,160 for for 99 and 2000. Paying the drivers of the you 967 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,960 know their their driver budget was over 1,000,000 lbs. 968 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,560 So it was inevitable that the, the, the teams that were not 969 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,600 winning were soon going to get spent bored or spending a lot of 970 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,920 money to not win anything. Yeah, I can remember sitting on 971 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,920 the on the committee of the British Tory Guy championship. 972 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,800 You know, there was a sort of committee, I can't know what 973 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,400 they called it. And I can remember when they had 974 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,240 the discussions about everybody having to use the same this, the 975 00:56:58,240 --> 00:57:03,440 same that same Gearboxes, same front uprights or whatever. 976 00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:08,600 It was with the the in being that you could run a car for 977 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:13,680 £1,000,000, full championship for £1,000,000 and all these 978 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,880 things happen to be the same like gearboxes. 979 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:20,320 As I say brakes, everybody have the same brakes and it it was 980 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:21,960 the way they controlled the budget. 981 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,760 Well, we ran that year. At the end of that year I went 982 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,440 out to get quotes on running the team if he was going to put it 983 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:35,480 out, and at the end of that one year where they wanted it to 984 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,280 happen for £1,000,000 but he quoted me £3.9 million. 985 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,520 Right. And that was a bare minimum, 986 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,720 yeah, that was the the amount. And yet TOCA had said the, you 987 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,600 know, 12 months before and you've got to be able to run a 988 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,160 car for £1,000,000. You should have asked them to 989 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:53,160 run 2 cars. What are you then? 990 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,440 You'd like to show me a man that can ready for that. 991 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,520 So yeah, so difficult in a lot of ways. 992 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:07,640 And and when when super touring ended and as I say Ford had 993 00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:14,960 spent silly money on on the on winning the 2000 title the BTC 994 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,040 touring cars came into play and and you actually came back into 995 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,280 the championship with the with the four O 6 coupe run with with 996 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,840 Victoria Lee. I mean, fond, fond memories of 997 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,920 that time it was Again, it's. It was. 998 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,720 It was not, not the not the most successful period, but good 999 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,320 memory. I I knew Victoria well. 1000 00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:41,320 He he was again another character to say the least, but 1001 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,320 I knew Victoria well and got on really well with him. 1002 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,520 Victoria was extremely determined and got got some 1003 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,680 clever, clever thoughts sort of thing. 1004 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,800 The car was a very heavy car. I mean, I got it down to the the 1005 00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,680 white, but the white limit sort of thing, yeah, but it. 1006 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,480 Was a big old car, the coupe, wasn't it? 1007 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:08,360 Yeah, it didn't ever achieve any results ever from what I can 1008 00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:14,680 recall, but not even as good as the as the Four O 6 Saloon. 1009 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,840 Really. No, made him want to choose 1010 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,400 that. The coupe why that model? 1011 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,360 Was there any logic behind that or no, just visual. 1012 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,760 I think something that stood out from the crowd, something 1013 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,640 different to everybody else. I think it was a simple. 1014 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,320 When you was running the team and obviously you know we're 1015 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,280 here now, you know forward budget was 12 million at the 1016 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:38,800 time. When you were running your team 1017 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,840 or for Peugeot, did you get other team managers telling you 1018 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,040 what their budgets were or did you hear roughly what they were 1019 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,080 spending in comparison to you? Was that a bit of a thing? 1020 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:49,760 Was it or something that comes out afterwards? 1021 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,760 No, the individual teams didn't tell me. 1022 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,800 But you saw here it third hand, you know, as I told somebody, I 1023 00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,280 was in confidence and then it sort of drifts back to you, but 1024 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,560 not many earlier, earlier couple sort of thing. 1025 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,200 Yeah, Ian Flux told us that he was. 1026 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:09,360 Maybe he was reminded of a time. I think he said he was at Monza 1027 01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:14,280 and he he bumped into Renault's Tim Jackson again. 1028 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,120 Sadly, another person not with us anymore. 1029 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:21,600 And he he asked him what the budget was for running the the 1030 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,520 Silka Lean car in 93 and he said, oh, it's about 400 grand, 1031 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,360 give or take for the whole season. 1032 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,520 And Tim Jackson said, well, you know, you did bloody well there 1033 01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,720 then because our budget was 4 million for those two Renault 1034 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:38,520 Nineteens. So, you know, there's just a 1035 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,560 prime example of the differences there laid bare, you know, oh. 1036 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,600 Yeah, and I mean, when they have a massive amount more, it's not 1037 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,040 all necessarily spent on the car. 1038 01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,120 There's obviously a lot of PR comes into it as well, but there 1039 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,640 is a huge amount spent on the car. 1040 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,280 Basically what we what it boils down to to help Peugeot turn 1041 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,240 into a winner at the in that era was basically more budget and a 1042 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:00,880 bit more support from Peugeot France. 1043 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:02,800 Bit more support or just any support? 1044 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,360 Some support, from what I was going to say, it's it's support. 1045 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:09,440 Even a phone call would be nice would. 1046 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,800 Would would have made a huge difference, huge difference. 1047 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,480 Just out of interest, do you think there was a point where 1048 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,960 obviously if you'd have the support from the start it would 1049 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,440 have been a completely different story. 1050 01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,000 But do you think there was a point where sort of you got to a 1051 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,120 point where even if you had report on the funding, it 1052 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,640 couldn't have changed overnight or do you think that powers 1053 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,760 always? There for Peugeot, Peugeot, 1054 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:37,560 France. If they wanted to make it a 1055 01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:41,200 winning operation, they could have even sort of like 9798. 1056 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:46,200 I mean the idea would have been for them to supply us a complete 1057 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:52,720 car and supply an engineer with it for us to run it and learn 1058 01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,240 the characteristics of the car. That would have been the ideal 1059 01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,640 situation, but it needed to be a work spec car. 1060 01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,000 You know, they probably would have sold us a customer spec 1061 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,720 car, but that would be completely pointless. 1062 01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,440 But I mean, for sure that would have made a big difference. 1063 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:15,640 I'm confident in that. They've got a winning car, yes. 1064 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,000 The characteristics of the engine was a bit different to 1065 01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,160 ours, but they've got a massive variation of race tracks. 1066 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,600 Some of them were faster than ours sort of thing, but our guys 1067 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:28,040 could have adapted to that for sure. 1068 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:33,320 Once once they were confident in their own minds that what 1069 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,360 they've got under their right foot, you know, in the car they 1070 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:37,840 were sitting. I mean, that would have given 1071 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,400 them a huge boost, knowing full well the car was a winning car 1072 01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:43,720 in other parts. Of the world plus me, I'm 1073 01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:45,720 guessing you that your engine guys or? 1074 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,000 Depending if France would have done them for you, you tune that 1075 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,480 into the car. Anyway, like you said their 1076 01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,000 their power maximum power was coming at a certain Rev range or 1077 01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,280 at a certain point because suited to the tracks then surely 1078 01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,400 that would would have just been tuned to a you know, for the 1079 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,680 suitability of the British tracks as well anyway, wouldn't 1080 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,280 it? Yeah, for sure. 1081 01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,840 Yeah. It we could have done something 1082 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,520 with it, that's for sure. Yeah, exactly. 1083 01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,800 Yeah. Frustration beyond belief, but. 1084 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:16,200 You know, after two or three years trying to do it, you just 1085 01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,240 have to accept it and you just have to live with it. 1086 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:27,480 Well, Peugeot and the lack of success compared to the other 1087 01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:32,040 manufacturers during the era is possibly one of the most asked 1088 01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,600 questions as to why throughout the era. 1089 01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,200 So I'm glad that you've been able to come and fill in some of 1090 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,280 the gaps for us for us today, Mick, because lots of people 1091 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,600 really, really want to. I mean, especially that four O 6 1092 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,640 in the Ultron livery. It's one of we did a we did a 1093 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,200 survey before about people's favorite super tours and the 1094 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:56,360 four O 6 in that livery is a top of a lot of people's lists of 1095 01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:03,080 best looking super Torah. Yeah, it it's, you know, it 1096 01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,800 sounds like I'm making excuses all the time, but they're 1097 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,680 genuine reasons why we're not competitive enough. 1098 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:16,000 To go against all the big teams, no, it makes sense and it's it's 1099 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,880 similar problems. I think the Vauxhall suffered 1100 01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,960 with the Vectra because the Vectra was successful in Europe 1101 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,640 but again wasn't really successful in Britain and I 1102 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,600 think they they had similar sort of problems with that. 1103 01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,560 Yeah, AAA had a pretty big budget though, to to do this. 1104 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,400 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. 1105 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:33,160 That's very true. And. 1106 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:35,640 I think because the Peugeot looks so good in that green and 1107 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,120 gold colour scheme. It's even more frustrating 1108 01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,840 because he looked fast and he looked like he was a winner, you 1109 01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,760 know? I think that's why I think was 1110 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:45,400 honestly. Yeah, even now, like you look at 1111 01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,920 you think what a bloody cracking looking car that was and the 1112 01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,520 colour scheme was brilliant. Yeah, better than most. 1113 01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:57,000 Yeah, and we I sold those to a guy in Australia and as you 1114 01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,720 probably know Patrick went down there and drove the cars for him 1115 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:02,560 in some of the races and he was winning races down there. 1116 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,840 But I think down there they tend to concentrate on the big V 1117 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,320 eights rather than. Super Tourists, Yes, Yeah, yeah, 1118 01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,600 yeah. They I think they've looked upon 1119 01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,480 as a poor relation. Aren't they the Super tourists 1120 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,320 compared to the V eights? Yeah, the the year because I 1121 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,040 also arranged 2 cars to go down there and we did Bathurst and 1122 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,240 then we on another occasion we did the Poker Curry 500 and the 1123 01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:30,040 Wellington 500 and it was Patrick and Paul Relish who did 1124 01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,280 that. Yeah, you had more backing than 1125 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,840 Peugeot in in ounces the other side of the planet than you did 1126 01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,680 from just across the water in all my seasons that you had over 1127 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,200 here. Peugeot New Zealand Finance One. 1128 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,120 And I forget where we've got the finance for Bathurst. 1129 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:49,080 Yeah those those two years at Bathurst were were obviously 1130 01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,280 there was the TV fallout with the V eights and that's why Alan 1131 01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,400 Gow organised for the the Super tourists to come and take part. 1132 01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,520 Quite an experience to be at Bathurst Racing A4, A 406 there. 1133 01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,120 Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, Bathurst is incredible. 1134 01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,000 The track's incredible, and yet the funniest. 1135 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,400 The thing I remember about it most was the mechanics were all 1136 01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,440 stopping in her house, just off the track somewhere. 1137 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,640 I was in a hotel, obviously, but they was in this house. 1138 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,960 And I think it was Richard Jones who said to me, you wake him in 1139 01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,400 the morning, he said. You look around the room, he 1140 01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:27,640 said. And almost every morning there's 1141 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:31,640 a spider. And these are huge spiders, he 1142 01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:32,760 said. But you have to move really 1143 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,000 slowly, he says. Because they jump, he said. 1144 01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,320 They can jump about 6 foot. I forget what they call them 1145 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,920 now. Apparently Australia's famous 1146 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,040 for them, but I always remember the stories about the guys 1147 01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,960 getting up in the morning and having these massive jumping 1148 01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,760 spiders everywhere. Big as your hand. 1149 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,640 Almost sort of thing. The four O 6. 1150 01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,000 The Four O 6 is quite competitive at Brad Bathurst as 1151 01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,520 well. Yeah, no, it did well. 1152 01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,160 I mean, it broke in the end. I can't remember what, what it 1153 01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,960 was, whether it was a drive shaft or something like that, I 1154 01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:02,840 can't remember. And I can't remember how many 1155 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,760 hours in it was. But if I was guest and I'd say 1156 01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,920 it was about two about 1/3 of the way through. 1157 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:11,520 But I must admit I can't remember really 1158 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:27,000 well Mick and I just want to thank you today for sharing your 1159 01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:30,400 stories from Super Touring, about your time with Peugeot in 1160 01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:31,920 the British Touring Car Championship. 1161 01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,400 Thanks for sharing all your stories. 1162 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,880 You're behind the scenes knowledge and the whole politics 1163 01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,600 of the Peugeot outfit during the 90s, so thank you. 1164 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,360 Brilliant, Mick. Great insight, great insight and 1165 01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,400 I think a lot of answers that a lot of us and a lot of us fans 1166 01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,040 from the Supernaturian of. And that answered by you, to be 1167 01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,880 honest, because even you know to those days it's been you know. 1168 01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,400 You're very welcome. Out out of all the drivers that 1169 01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,760 you've had throughout the seasons that you did with 1170 01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,000 Peugeot, who was the easiest to get on with? 1171 01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,680 Who was the most difficult to get on with and who was the and 1172 01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,160 who was the fastest? The fastest I have to put two of 1173 01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,880 them together. It'd be Tim and Patrick. 1174 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,520 The only thing is Patrick's car always needed. 1175 01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:23,279 More maintenance on the gearbox and Tinsley, but I'll put them 1176 01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:25,920 to equal both. Equal amounts of determination. 1177 01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,040 The most difficult to get on with. 1178 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,640 I'm not sure any of them were awkward. 1179 01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:36,240 Eugene was a difficult one, but but in a different way. 1180 01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:38,920 You know, just sometimes he was on a different wavelength to us. 1181 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,359 But if somebody was, if somebody's going to get Stroppy, 1182 01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:45,240 Patrick would be the first one to get Stroppy. 1183 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,600 But usually for good reason. In his own mind, anyway. 1184 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:56,520 Tim was probably the easiest. Paul Radisish just kept himself 1185 01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,439 to himself. He was very easy going. 1186 01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:02,800 Paul was just really laid back. You know, get this done, get 1187 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:07,720 that done. But but yeah, that's about as 1188 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:13,200 much as I'm prepared to say now. Thanks again to Mick Linford for 1189 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,399 joining us today on this week's episode of Stories From Super 1190 01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:18,720 Touring. If you enjoyed today's episode, 1191 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,040 don't forget to give us a five star rating on the podcast app 1192 01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,439 of your choice and subscribe to the podcast to get it in your 1193 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,560 feed immediately. Every Monday an episode is 1194 01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,279 released. If you've got a comment or a 1195 01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:34,760 suggestion for a future show, feel free to send us an e-mail 1196 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:40,880 at Pod at 1990s btcc.com. Until then, we'll see you next 1197 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,200 week, where we're joined again by Andrew Charman as we look 1198 01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:48,760 back at the last ever BTCC race held in Wales, taking a look 1199 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,600 back to Pembrey 1993, the debut of the Ford Mondeo in the 1200 01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,120 British Touring Car Championship. 1201 01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:57,760 Until then, we'll see you next week. 1202 01:09:58,080 --> 01:09:58,520 Goodbye.