Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of Stories From Super Touring.
Levi's on holiday this week, so joining myself and Adam instead
is Eurosports World Super Bike commentator Greg Haynes.
Greg, you've come back for more. Yes, sadly for the listeners, I
guess. Alex, I can only apologise, you
stuck with me for another week, so I'm sorry about that.
No, I'm sure it's great. Let's have you back.
And our guest this week is a man who's just about seen it all in
the world of touring car racing from racing for Toyota and
Nissan in the BTCC. He spent three years racing for
Peugeot in the Italian Touring Car Championship too.
He's also been a team manager and owned his own touring car
race team. It's Gary Ailes.
Gary, welcome to stories from Super Turian today.
Yeah. How are you doing?
I'm. I'm good.
Thank you. And thank you for having me on.
Oh, no problem at all. We'll start really at the
beginning. Was the car bug something that
was in you from the start? Were you Were you always
interested in motorsport and racing and cars, or is it
something that developed later on?
No, it's definitely something that developed later on in life.
None of my family were involved in motorsport at all.
I used to be a mechanic actually, before I started
racing, but well, I I say that I they all think they invented
joyriding, but I used to borrow my mum's car when I was about 14
and have just have a mooch about.
I never crashed or anything, by the way, but it was my dad then
that thought, probably best we get this out of his system.
So they sent me to Brands Hatch to the racing school when I was
14 and hooned around there for a little while and that's really
where I got the bug for it, if you like.
But I had to carry on school and did my apprenticeship and all
the rest of it and then started in Formula Ford where we managed
to save up enough money. Yeah, actually, talking of
Formula Ford, you made your debut there in 1985, I think it
was Gary, and then you're second in the 1600 Junior Championship,
labeled as a Star of Tomorrow, the only the Young Driver of the
Year award. So I guess it happened quite
quickly, didn't it? All these big things started
happening. It did.
It was crazy really because I was just, you know, a boy from
Crawley lived in Pound Hill. You know as a family we didn't
have a lot of money or anything to do it.
So it was and and I was never really exposed to it.
It was just my dad in the ended ended up making a little bit of
money if you like. And it was his passion for sure.
And he bought a formula Ford. So we bought John Pratt's
Formula Ford and basically I was just chucked in the deep end and
and literally as as simple as that.
So no carting. I mean, the only carting I did
was my dad made me, you know, wooden go Kart if you like.
And that's that's all I had as a kid.
You know, we lived at the top of this hill, so just used to Hoon
down it all the time. But I've always had a I've
always enjoyed it, you know what I mean?
Naturally just enjoyed it I guess.
What about Formula 42000 as well?
And the BBC Grandstand Trophy? I mean, we here on stories from
Super Tour and we used to talk a lot about the TV coverage.
It's not quite the same, is it, now without Grandstand?
No, it's not. No, you're absolutely right.
I think it was Murray Walker commentated on it When I did the
BBC Grandstand series, that was just like four or five races.
I think that we did there and yeah, I had, I think I had 4
poles out of five races or something like that, but I quite
enjoyed slicks and wings, bearing in mind I hadn't ever
done any karting. As soon as I got to slicks and
wings I quite enjoyed it. Talking of wings, Gary, so in
was it 1987 you went over to F3 with W Surrey?
Yes. Yeah.
I started off with tech speed with them first in formula three
and we we basically run out of money.
But text people great to me, you know Marvin Humphreys really
helped me as he's helped a lot of drivers actually.
He's a cool guy, he really is. And he helped me and he ran me
for as long as he could, you know until the money ran out if
you like. And we we we managed to get bits
of money together, but it was always a bit fragmented, if you
like. Yeah.
So when you did go the W Surrey route in 87, what was it like
sort of getting into nitty gritty that meeting.
Obviously Dick Bennett's very well known in in BTCC paddock
form, the Three Paddocks and obviously at that point they
were running Hackenham. Yeah, I mean, you know what?
Was that like? Well, Dicky's a legend, as we
all know. You know, there's not a lot he
can't do. That boy.
And we managed to get some money together.
It was actually sponsored by hardcore jeans for that, for
that event. And we managed to get enough
money to do the one race with Dicky.
And it was amazing, you know, his team and the way he does it
and all the rest of it. And I was sort of qualifying in
a midfield 10/11/12. All of a sudden I was on the
front two rows, you know, and I hadn't really changed anything
I'd done. He was, he just knew how to
engineer a car. Well, he's really been.
Genie actually engineered me. I.
Suppose from a from a racing driver's point of view, you
always have that doubt, don't you?
To begin with of of is it me? Is it the car?
Is it am I just not fast enough? Then all of a sudden he said
you've done nothing different. Yeah, you've just gone to a
proper team that had to do things properly and give you the
best package that you can. Obviously we still see this in
Formula One now and you know motorbikes the same and and you
know in all forms you can only really be as good as the
equipment that you're given. So it's probably good for you
then to just sort of just think actually I'm doing all right.
It it was it was it was good for the soul if you like to think.
Well actually I'm you know, maybe I'm not that bad.
I do remember watching though. I crashed at Dingle Dell you
know brands Grand Prix circuit in Formula Three.
I can't remember who I was driving for, but I was watching
Mika and he was in a Reynard at that time and that year the
Reynard actually wasn't a very good car.
And I remember sitting on the bank watching him going, yeah, I
probably need to get another job watching him go through Dingle
Dell, you know, he, he could tell he was he was better, he
was better, you know, he could just watch it and see it really.
And I I think he won the race and the car wasn't great that
year, but all. Right, Didn't he?
He did do bad, didn't he? Didn't do too bad.
Yeah. That's do you know that's
interesting guys, because what you've just said, Gary, reminds
me of something John Watson said once that same part Dingle Dell
into Sterling's Senna came past him.
Yeah. Crikey, I think it's time to
retire. Yeah, that's right.
It's quite. Funny how you had that same sort
of experience with hacking. Yeah, no, you know, total
respect, you know, for, for the drivers, if you like, and
especially for Mika. But I mean, I was team mates
with a lot of really good people, you know, Johnny
Herbert, you know, Mika Hakkin and of course the legend in
touring cars, Andy Rouse. You know, he's not slow.
Not only is he not slow, he's quite bright.
You know, I was a bit green, I think, when I was with him.
On on the subject of team mates Gary.
Out of all the ones that you've had in Formula 3IN touring cars,
who would be the toughest one you've had?
Well, probably Giovinardi, I would say, you know, because he
was five times world champion, but we're in the same team for
three years. So you know, he did kick my ass
a couple of times and he he he, he was pretty special on his
day. He was almost unbeatable in a,
but he was Italian, so he'd be like this, you know, be up and
down a little bit and I could wind him up, you know, on the
grid and stuff like that. We used to wind each other up
and I used to get the better of him sometimes with that and you
get all really angry and frustrated.
You know, they try and knock you off, which you did a couple of
times actually. There was no love lost with him,
that's for sure. Interesting.
I mean going back to the the F3 days there, I mean it sounded
like, you know, things were going well, you were doing well
in the in in the Formula Three ranks, but then suddenly you're
sidelined by a a road car crash and you're quite severely
injured. Yeah, that that, that, that that
that was pretty big. That was I was on my way to
Brands Hatch actually and I hit a lorry, but I was doing 90
miles an hour at the time. So it stopped pretty quick.
Yeah, yeah, that that that changed a lot in my life, not
just through the motorsport. I test tested for Eddie Jordan
actually for the Stelle Red Drive.
So, and there was a lot of opportunities around at that
point but you know, clearly that put pay to that.
I think Eddie came to see me in hospital just to make sure I was
actually fucked, you know, because.
You rented the track for you, yeah.
He's definitely fucked, yeah, yeah, driving anything, but no,
they're all there. A lot of people come to see me,
actually. It was very nice.
It was quite humbling. A lot of people came to see me.
Wow. So did your whole life not flash
in front of you, Gary? I mean, how badly were you
actually injured? Yeah, I broke both my legs, my
arm, back, head injury. Yeah, Number, number of things.
Really looking to be walking. They will only be alive.
Yeah, they said that I'll never race again.
I remember them telling me when I was in hospital, the doctor
said look Gary, he said you won't be racing again.
I went, I think I will, but I had about 5 operations on my
right leg to to keep it so. So yeah, it was hard getting
back in the car. So how how long did it take you
from the moment where you had the crash until you was you was
back at it going grotesque that's.
Probably probably a year back in the car, but I I came back too
early so I came back to do Vauxhall Lotus.
We'd lost all the money and all the opportunities anyway, but I
got an opportunity to drive a Vauxhall Lotus and I went back
too early because I got internal bleeding.
I finished fourth, actually. In the race there was internal
bleeding on my right leg, so that's all you know.
I had to step out a bit for a while.
Talking to Vauxhall Lotus Challenge, I saw a poster of
that the other day when I was doing a bit of research and
there were some big names in that series.
You had the likes of Mcnish, Phillip.
Adams. That's right.
Yeah, David Brabham again. Mika was in it.
It that's that's there's some big names in that series.
Yeah, Justin Bell, they run a team, didn't they, in in it as
well? There's some, yeah, there's some
good lads in there and the European side of it was very
strong as well. For this series of stories from
Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2, which is
being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June
2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question.
Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories From Super
Touring? Send your answers to Pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode this series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. I get the impression Gary and
David didn't even doubt in your mind that you would not get back
in a racing car again, but in reality it must have been touch.
Very touching. Go.
Yeah, it. Yeah, it was.
I never doubted it that I'll get back in.
I mean everybody said that I wasn't as quick as I was, but I
think maybe just people say that I I don't, I don't really feel
that at all. But well, I didn't feel it at
all then. But now I was determined to get
back. It was unfinished business
really I wanted to do. I wanted to carry on, you know,
that's really I guess where you know touring cars and world
sports cars sort of came into it really, you know my Formula One
opportunities. There wasn't any and we, we
weren't incredibly rich as a family, so I was never, and I
didn't have any big sponsors, so I had to lose that dream after
that, really. So it's in 1988 when you did the
Vauxhall Lotus, that was also the time when you debuted with
Andy Rouse in the BTCC in the Sierra Cosmos at.
Donnington George's race, I can't remember.
That was before I signed for for Toyota.
It might have been before, wasn't it?
But I don't get that. Brad Sach, yeah, because I was
getting married that weekend and I remember Andy ringing saying,
look, do you want to come and drive the car?
And I went, well, I'm getting married.
And he went. And so I went and did the race,
yeah. So, OK.
So just going off base slightly, yeah.
Didn't. Tell you are you married to the
lady that that that used you to marry on that day?
No, I'm. Not married anymore?
No. Anyway.
Yeah, shit happens. Yeah.
She was a. Bit some predicament isn't?
It yeah, I remember after we got, you know, we got married,
all the rest of it, and it was a bit of a party.
It's a lot but I've got to go to bed because obviously I'm racing
in the morning. She just sort of looked at me
and went really? See you later, yeah.
That didn't get down to though, so.
When when you did do that race in the Cosworth at Donnington,
the endurance race, what like the first time in a dinner
Cosworth. So, I mean, I've had the
pleasure of driving one of these at at Snetterton, and I know how
enjoyable it was for me, and a bit of a lifelong childhood
dream really. But how was it for you?
It was fantastic, you know, especially to sit in Andy's car,
you know, because he was, he was the king of it all at that
point. And the car was awesome.
And I remember getting in it, going out the pit lane.
I put my foot on the throttle. It's like nothing happened.
So that's just boring and also. Pinned you back in the seat,
yeah. It's going up the pit lane going
shit. Want to grab a gear?
You know I. See what?
That's what I said to the guys before and I find it so funny
and I'd love to do it again. I just find when I when I drove
the cars worth it. I just found one hands always on
the wheel because he needed to be, but one was constantly on
the gear shifter because he just wanted more gears.
Yeah, it just keeps shifting up when the when the turbos come
in. Absolutely.
It's just absolute bonkers. But yeah, real.
That was good, I think. I don't.
We didn't do the race. We started the race and there
was a problem with the car, so, right.
Anyway, probably my marriage afterwards as well.
So that was obviously your first relate race with Rouse.
That was the start of then. What seems to be a pretty close
good relationship between you two?
What was Andy like and you know, is was it a close relationship?
Was it as close as it seemed? Yeah, he he was, he was hard.
He was, you know, and he was a, he was a winner.
You know, he was a clever engineer and he was a racer, but
he was hard and you know, he didn't suffer falls.
And I remember I used to one of the first actually to do it, but
I used to flat shift, you know, before he had gear cuts or
anything like that. So I just used to leave my foot
buried on the throttle and I just kicked the clutch and
changed gear and it was quicker because I I won.
I did it in the Bologna Motors show against Giovanni and I beat
him in the final and they couldn't figure out how I'd
beaten him and the only difference was that I was I was
doing that basically anyway so I did it.
I did it with Andy 1st and I remember he took the gearbox
apart and he also like fell apart.
You know, all the dog rings were fucked and everything He he, I
had to go to the workshop and take the gearbox out.
That's what he was like. He said you need, you know,
although I was paid, actually I was being paid by Toyota.
He said you need to come to the workshop.
You can take that out and see what you're doing to it.
Yeah. He said you need to know, you
know, you need to get an idea. And I I used to be a mechanic so
I could do it, but that's what he was like.
Yeah, he was pretty hard. Yeah, I crashed at Thruxton and
I did have a a brake problem. I crashed at going into the
chicane, which, and I actually hurt myself and there was no
emotion on his face at all, you know.
Yeah. Look what you've done.
What you've done, you know. Oh, I heard a bit, Andy.
Yeah, whatever. But, you know, your car's 2 foot
shorter now. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I learnt
so much from him. I did.
So if you crashed a rouse car, Gary, were you feeling more?
Not this is going to hurt, but this is going to this is going
to be a big problem when I get back to the pit.
Well, yeah, it was because you know you're going to get a
bollocking, but. But to be driving for the team
owner though as well and alongside the team owner must
come with an added pressure, surely?
Yeah, it it, it did. And like I say, he was a he was
a legend in it anyway. And I was, I guess, you know, a
cocky young racing driver thinking, well, I'll beat this
old Git. It won't be a problem, you know,
and and that wasn't the case, that wasn't the because he's a
very clever man. And not only that, he's quick as
well. So but yeah, it was pretty hard.
You had to learn. Inside information Gary on when
when Will Hoy and Andy collided at Pilgrim's drop in 92 and they
went clattering off into the barriers.
Did you any hear, you know, hear in the aftermath from that?
That was a classic. Yeah, that was a classic.
No, none of them were going to lift, were they?
You know, and Andy certainly wasn't going to lift.
No, I didn't hear anything. I didn't hear anything.
He, he wouldn't say anything anyway.
Andy he He wouldn't say a word. All, all, Lip says.
It wasn't his fault. Yeah, you're asking the other
drivers, and it wasn't their fault either.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So by the time you were into touring cars, did you feel like
I'm here now? This is the place to be?
There was no going back then to a sort of single seater or.
Definitely not single seater, no world sports cars is what I
wanted to to, you know, to get into, which I did in the end,
you know, because where do you go from, you know, I mean the
boys, some of the boys were fortunate enough to get multiple
contracts, if you like, and the money started to go up.
You know, they were paid huge money at the end and I didn't
have that, partly because I left the UK and went to Italy.
And the reason I went to Italy was the Italians were looking,
if you like, for some more international drivers.
It was just perfect timing and I finished third at brands in the
Toyota when the Peugeot people were at brands just watching.
So I got a call that way and then I got invited to do a race
at Monza in in the S2 class for Peugeot and I won the race.
I've never been there before but I won it.
So on the strength of that, they gave me a three-year deal.
So yeah, you know, the money was not quite as good in Italy, but
you know, nevertheless it was a three-year deal.
That's what I wanted. Talking of Toyota then, so that
was in 91 when you had your first full BTCC season alongside
Rouse. Did that just come about with
obviously a relationship already with Andy from the from the
Sierra day and then just having that relationship and and I'm
guessing that Karina and and you know the Tota and the Sierra was
absolutely chalk and cheese to drive, weren't they?
They were completely different, yeah.
Rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, if you like.
I never really had a problem moving from one to the other, to
be honest. I probably preferred front wheel
drive. I found it a bit, yeah, a bit
more comfortable I guess. You know, I think if you come
from, if you've been karting all your life, as, you know, as a
kid, you know going sideways is, you know, it's just part of it.
But I I was never really comfortable with that.
I was more comfortable with a tad of understeer, probably.
You always think going sideways is a is a slower option.
Is this like? A slower option?
Yeah, yeah. And I'd rather have just a tad
of understeer, you know, so you can push a bit harder into the
first part of the corner. Yeah, if you like.
And you've controlled the understeer on the on the first
part. Because the last thing you want
is a tad of oversteer. Because of the point of turning
him to fast corner, you don't know if it is a tad of overture.
It's going to be a monumental amount of oversteer.
So I know what he's saying. I I prefer to control the
understeer on the throttle than the oversteer because once you
get so far on the you know with the oversteers you've lost all
the time anyway so. So yeah, probably be preferred
preferred front wheel drive. Alex Clark has kindly compiled
some stats for us though Gary 6 finishes from 15 starts in 91.
Why? Was it a reliability problem or
because it was a good car? Remember, Andy went at
Donnington, didn't he? That was a particularly good
start. Yeah, well, it was a good car.
I got wiped out by Frank Sitner, one of those.
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, bastard. Like what we're?
Sitting alike actually, Gary, because he's he's someone we
don't really hear much about these days.
I believe he was quite a a prickly, complicated character.
Is that fair to say? Yeah, he was a little bit.
He definitely was a little bit. I don't know what happened in
the other ones. I I guess we had I had a an
engine, a couple of engine failures and things like that.
Thruxton, we all do particularly well, the engine shit itself.
So Alton Park, I was going like a train.
I think I broke the lap record. Lap after lap after lap and then
fell off like you do, got a bit excited and then ended up
falling off somewhere. But so yeah, we had a few, yeah,
I didn't have. I didn't really have that many
shunts, I don't think here. We are a few.
Failures. Talking back at that that double
header at Brands Hatch where obviously we now subsequently
know you've just said that Peugeot were there watching and
offered you a drive on the strength of your third place in
in round one. And then obviously as we've just
said now, you had that collision on the warm up lap with with Mr.
Sitner chance for possible wind gone is that?
Yeah I I think it I think it was actually because but my clutch
had gone on on on the on the warm up lap so when I come up to
the grid the clutch went so that's why I I lost my grid
place on on on the warm up lap because I had no clutch.
So I just had to try and smash it into gear and then you know
try to regain my grid position which and I'd have to do it all
over again. But I tried to regain my grid
position and I was coming through the field and and Frank
was just, you know, warming up his tyres and didn't see me.
And just we just we just hit. Simple as that really.
Yeah, that was a missed opportunity.
Did how long did he did it take for him to come and have a chat
with you? Was he?
Not very, not very long, no. I.
Yeah, but he's he's he's a Pussycat compared to.
I had a bit of a run in with Johnny Giacotto in Italy.
We had, we always seemed to qualify alongside each other.
It was always one of those. And we had a proper run in.
I mean he he clumped me actually, and he's pretty
strong. He's got arms like he's got arms
like Popeye, you know? But I think it's from bike racer
bike, right? Exactly.
Absolutely. Right, Yeah, it was poker Will
champion, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, I did get a letter
of apology from BMW. Actually, I get on the right
with Johnny now, so we don't fight anymore.
So it's all right. Roberto Ravalia seemed like
another tricky character as well.
Brilliant, Yeah. Brilliant driver.
He was very good mentally. He could.
He knew how to wind people up and as well.
He upset everyone at 1996 didn't.
He well, we spoke about the one that's Nettison, didn't we?
Where he just his job was just to to just be the wingman really
for for Joe, for smoking Joe. So and he he thought he'd go out
of all whatever the consequences were.
He was BMW through and through, and he'd do whatever he needed
to do. Yeah, he, he, he, he was
absolutely like that. He was a great guy actually, I
remember, but we were on the podium in at Peguza, which I
think is a fantastic circuit actually.
I don't know if you've impressed.
Around the dried up lake. Yeah, I love it.
And I was on the podium and Roberto, I think Giovanni won
it. I think maybe Roberto was second
and I was third, something like that.
I just remember sitting on the podium with him and he got his
fags out, started having a cigarette on the podium.
I thought, we're definitely in Italy.
He was actually, yeah, he said. Do you want a cigarette?
Gary went. Well, yeah, we're on the podium.
No, that's fine. Don't worry about it.
You're in Italy, you could do what you want.
Do what you like, Yeah. Do what you like.
So we obviously in 92 then that was when we obviously moved to
the Italian series with Peugeot. So now that now come about, but
what was it like in terms of racing in Italy compared to the
BTCC? You just give us a bit of a
taste of there in terms of you probably wasn't allowed to light
up a cigarette on the podium of a BTC.
C certainly was. But what was the what was the
differences just generally in the racing, the paddock, you
know, how was that for you? You know the differences.
I was the only Englishman in there, you know, as an
Englishman driving a French car and in the Italian championship.
So it had his challenges but but I I enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it actually when I was out there and but I
was racing against you know, Lorini, Nanini, Tarquini,
Moderna, Giovannardi, You know there was a lot of good people
in in that championship. There really was and you know,
good teams as well BMW, Audi and obviously Peugeot but.
Alpha in it at the time then. And Alpha.
Yeah, yeah. And Alpha.
Yeah. Tomorrow.
Vidali. I remember she put it on pole at
Imola and we were in a press conference thing and all the
Italian men were like, proper pissed about this, you know,
because there's a woman on pole, she's pretty quick, to be fair.
And she put it on pole. And I just remember I could hear
some whispering and going, yeah, I won't make the first caller.
Yeah, very Italian, but I don't think she did, actually.
But. But there you go.
Yeah, But no, it was tough, tough racing.
They didn't really care. Going off piste a little bit,
Gary, I'm just keen to know because we've had Messrs Linford
and Watts on this podcast in the past and they've talked about
the lack of communication. Tim Harvey said it to between
Peugeot UK and Peugeot over in, you know, France.
What was it like from your point of view?
Why were things so difficult for Peugeot UK?
I I I really don't know. I mean the the car, our car was
developed on different tyres, obviously.
So what do you know what I don't know?
But I presume Italy and and France still never had that
relationship. But obviously we know, we
clearly now know that Britain and and France didn't have that
relationship. But although you were obviously
doing very well out in Italy, you know winning the same as
what put obviously the French teams were.
I presume you didn't have any bond with them.
In any sharing, no. I don't know whether they they
shared engine, engine data, if you like or whatever, because we
had a pretty good engine. To be fair, the Peugeot had a
pretty good engine. It did, and I don't know whether
that was their problem in the UK, that they didn't have the
horsepower. Yeah, that that they wouldn't,
they wouldn't get, couldn't get the same engines and then when
they when Mick was saying when it went into the dyno, they they
wouldn't even test it into the same conditions.
Yeah. And stuff.
We were independent on engines, but I don't know whether there
was shared data, but it we were independent we had a different
engine builder and our engines were pretty good actually
because I came over to test the car, you know in the UK and it
was, it wasn't far away, bearing in mind that our car was have
been developed on Michelins and we had to use I think Yokohama
then. So we struggled, you know, with
the tyre, but everything else got the chassis and the engine
was good. Well that that 92 car, you came
over and did a single race. Peugeot Italia came over to do a
single race at Donnington in 92 in the BTCC and you promptly
trounced the works Peugeots that weekend.
We did, yeah. We, like I said, make a really
be pissed if I said when I say this, but yeah, we scored more
points in that one race than they did all year.
So, so, So yeah, bless him, but I have seen him since a couple
of times. Yeah, yeah, we did all right.
Like I say, but our car was developed on Michelin's and not
on Yoko's. So with time for sure we could
have been winning races I think with that car in the UK.
What about Giovinardi? Because he's a guy who obviously
in the UK, he came over in 2006, just after Ivan Muller had gone.
Muller went out, Giovinardi came in and he learned and learned
and learned the first year and then with the Vector in the
second and third years, he won the championship title twice.
Yeah. There, there's some spectacular
moments. They weren't there with his car
control. I remember, I think Adam was it
Turkington and Giovinardi on the grass, coming into the bomb hole
at Snetterson on the inside. And what was he like as a man
and what made him so special? Gary as as a driver.
I mean that even just the name for Briccio, Giovannardi is
fast. It just sounds fast, doesn't it?
It does. I mean I I I helped him come
over to the UK actually with with with Roland Dane was it
Roland Dane then I can't remember no Ian Harris I because
I said I remember saying to Ian I said you really do need to
look at this bloke because he's pretty damn quick.
So I did help for Abitio come over as a person amazingly
confident. Yeah yeah he was he was
amazingly confident. He knew what he wanted from the
car. But he just, he just oozed
confidence and he oozed confidence with the, you know,
with the engineers and the mechanics and they and they
loved him And he just went out and you know, and did it, you
know, he was a very confident man.
He had his own personal issues. You know, he had his own
problems. If you like, you know, behind
the scenes, if you like. And that's quite often the way
but amazingly confident guy must.
Have been quite hard coming into an Italian championship with an
Italian team mate, you know that.
That adds complications, I guess.
All all on its own. Yeah, I but I relish that, to be
honest. Because you know, like I said,
an Englishman in an Italian championship driving a French
car. You know you're going to, you're
going to get a kick in, aren't you?
It's a joke. But yeah, but yeah, there is,
Yeah, but but I but I enjoyed that.
There are a Welshman involved in this joke here.
Yeah, yeah, only in the evenings, but.
But I enjoyed that challenge. I really did it, you know,
because But also the language thing.
I didn't speak Italian. I could understand it towards
the end and you know, could do a, you know, got a little bit of
it if you like. But I think that was quite good
in a way because I didn't know what they were doing but what
they were saying, you know, and I had a good engineer and and he
looked after me as well and I just drove.
I just drove as best I could. That was it.
You know, I complained once that Fabrizio's engine was better and
they they literally just said, look, you're #2, so that's
that's what that is, and then you accept your place.
And it wasn't, it didn't matter what I what I said or how loud I
shouted, I wasn't going to get that.
So I just concentrated on doing what I could do.
Well, and what you did that season was lots of podiums.
Victory at Verano and you finished second in the
championship. It's not a bad first season in
Italy. Yeah, no, no, it was great.
It got harder after that, but but yeah, it was it was
brilliant. I really had good fun and and
made some good friends out there.
Apart from Johnny Giacotto and in in Manueli Pirro we had a bit
of as well. Because that second year they
merged the two classes, didn't they?
And it just became a single class series for Class 2 cars.
You scored another victory at Misano, finished fourth in the
points. Yeah, you must have.
You must have really enjoyed your time out there because it
was going well. It was I I really did enjoy it
and it was, and I was starting to get other opportunities, you
know, to stay out there with different teams and things.
But anyway, you know what? For whatever reason, it didn't
happen in the end, but I had good fun out there.
For this series of stories from Super Touring, we are delighted
to be teaming up with Brands Hatch to give away 2 tickets to
Super Touring Power 2, which is being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 2024.
The award nominated event was a smash hit last year when it's
debut edition transported fans back to the 90s and this year's
event will once again celebrate one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. To enter the competition, just
answer the following question. Who was the first ever guest to
star on Stories from Super Touring?
Send your answers to Pod at 1990s btcc.com and we'll
announce the winner on a later episode this series.
Meanwhile, let's get back to the episode.
Between in 94 Gary then. So that was your final year,
wasn't it? But which is obviously more of a
struggle, I believe yourself and Fabrizio didn't actually win a
race that season. Is that more bound to other
teams doing a better job of designing their cars and you
were a little bit behind or what do you think that?
We were behind because the programme was being pulled, so
ito technical we're losing the contract less.
Money was being plowed. Yeah, less money was being
spent. I I should imagine.
Giovanni. I think that already was already
moving. You know he had already had an
an option if you like. So, so yeah, that was a struggle
that you shame, actually. You see, I think it's more so
knowing that where there's probably fans probably wouldn't
the other side of the fence. But As for you know what's going
on behind the scenes, just think, well, we've just got to
see this out now. Yeah, that's right.
I mean, you know, they weren't spending the money, we weren't
testing and things like that. You know, nothing was really
happening and I think Forbicio lost a bit of, you know, he got
a bit down about it as well. So you know when when he's down,
he's he doesn't really play. Yeah, so.
So what happened with Johnny Ciccotta then?
I'm intrigued about. It I beat him and I I it was it
was a last lap Ron hopeful and I got by him on the last lap and
you know and he was really pissed about it and then you
know when a flag goes and everybody slows down.
Well we weren't we were still racing and I remember we we we
got back into Park Fermay and it's just me and him in park for
May 1st and we were and he got out of the car and I got out of
the car and we were just like these two you know, chicken
fight, a cockerel fight, you know it was just like that.
You know what I mean? It all got just got a bit out of
hand. And also what what happened I
think was in free practice my mechanic waved me out and I
wasn't looking. So just looking at the mechanic,
he waved me out and Johnny came past and I just twatted.
And yeah, that didn't go down too well either.
Yeah, that that might have something to do with the
gallery, Yeah, yeah. He was a bit pissed about that.
They're they're quite emotional, I.
Was gonna tell you that puts things in perspective because we
thought Rydell and Reed at Brands Hatch was a bit of a
confrontation or or menu and Ravalli, but that's nothing is
it in comparison with Ailes and. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely not.
So 9095 then, I mean you've gone to the Global BPR Global GT
Series so you've gone from a Karina and a four O 5 in Britain
Gary to A to a Ferrari F40. Any any differences there at?
All, yeah. What's the?
Yeah, yeah, an awful lot that that all came about because
Claudia Barrow, that was our boss at Peugeot, he, he put
Giovinardi into Alfa Romeo and he put me into Ferrari or gave
me an opportunity at Ferrari. So Claudio was a good guy and he
was Todd's right hand man at Ferrari for for a while.
Yeah, that was an eye opener. I remember I got asked to
Ferrano, you know, to go and test at the Ferrari thing and it
was quite amazing, really, because you know, that garage,
that iconic garage that they have at the test circuit there.
And I remember, you know, sitting in there and A and a
Ferrari thinking, Christ, it's all right, yeah, yeah, that was
a beast. That car was a beast.
But brilliant. I enjoyed it.
We had a couple of polls with it, actually.
It's pretty unreliable. But I was with Massimo Massini
and Fabio Mancini were in the car with me and then Anders
Olsen and I can't remember his other guy's name.
But anyway was there. That's one of them cars that,
you know, you probably barely blink for the whole time that
you're you're driving it because he just keeps you alive, doesn't
it? Yeah.
Oh yeah. It's amazing that's at Le Mans.
I think, you know, we we just got the brief really just
finish. I don't care where you finish,
just just finish the race because Ferrari was quite
unreliable, yeah, and that's. A result in itself, isn't it?
With any 24 hour 5, just finish and you and a result will come
of it because it's such a such a long race to do, whether it be
Spa or Le Mans. But obviously talking to Le
Mans, when you did that, that was in 95 S obviously from a
driver's perspective. Box ticks, wasn't it, on the
CVI? Think I started the race and I
finished it, so I took the flag. Quite amazing, even though we
finished like 18th because we had a gearbox problem.
But to take the flag, you know, at Le Mans, OK, we didn't win
it, but. But, and to finish it, like you
said, you've been a cart. That's been unreliable up until
that point, so you don't give yourself much hope of getting
You know you're happy to get to the 12th hour mark, aren't you?
Anyway, you're going to do it all again.
Yeah, that's right, it was, it was amazing, bloody hard work in
that car because no cool suit, no power steering, no sequential
gearbox, no nothing. Do you know what I mean?
It was, you know, there's quite a few gear changes on the lap
around there and in in the wet the car was a handful.
I can imagine, yes. Yeah, yeah.
I remember spinning, going, doing about 200 miles an hour
and then just hitting, hitting the wet when I was on slicks and
just spinning like that. And I'm just thinking you're
nice knowing. Yeah, you know.
Yeah, yeah. This is it.
This is going wrong. This is but but yeah, we
finished. It was good.
Was there much of an overlap with the F1 programme?
Did you manage to get any anecdotes or stories?
That was the burger in the lazy days, wasn't it?
Or. Or even be it fear, aren't they,
when they were there testing at the same time because you?
I did see them testing and they gave at the end of the year.
They gave me a carbon fibre disk, which was the first carbon
fibre F1 disk that they made. They, they gave that to me on.
They put it on wood, you know? So I'm very proud of that
actually. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Wow. So you're.
Actually there in the heart of it, when they were testing those
V12 Ferrari. F oh, yes, I I was there.
What a. Sound.
Yeah, I remember being in a bar there and Braun, I think it was
Ross Braun, was on gardening leave, so he hadn't actually
started with Ferrari at that point.
I'm just remember seeing and I just went to a bar and he was
sitting in a bar having a having a beer and you know, So what are
you doing here? He said.
Well, Ferrari restaurant, yeah, OK, You know, we know the rest
of it, if you like. Yeah, but yeah, it's quite
amazing. It was quite amazing.
Definitely pull the birds. If you drive for Ferrari, that's
for sure. Well, yeah, I think I didn't
mantle one side like you don't like, you just turn into like
you're like you're just one of them.
You're a king like you don't pay for anything.
Everything's just thrown at you like you just, yeah, you're part
of the family. Yeah, I mean, obviously more so
when you're in Formula One as to what I was.
But nevertheless, you know, drive a Ferrari in Italy, then
it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.
And did you want to do more GT racing after that?
I bet you probably did. Didn't.
You. I did, yes, I did.
And I looked for for opportunities and stuff and
nothing came after the Ferrari thing.
And then so then I drove the Nissan again for Andy after that
and that was all in preparation for him to become the works
team. But unfortunately that never
happened. It went to Ray, Malik, I think,
not Andy. So that was a bit of a bum year
for us. Yeah.
Then I got the opportunity for with McLaren, you know, so to
drive the long tail that was that was fun as well.
Yes. So looking at that 96 season
back to the BTCC reunited again with Andy Rouse as you were
saying, he was hoping to get that Nissan, he'd lost the Ford
contract. That's right.
There was talk of him running independent Fords with the 4
cylinder engines rather than the V6 that that he had to run under
the under the deal with Ford, but then he ended up with these
Nissans. I mean how did all that come
about? It seemed quite late in the day
that that program all came together.
Yeah, it it was late in the day. I mean, I didn't really get
involved in it in the beginning. If you like that just the
opportunity came, you know, once he'd done a deal or or you know
what, what he was looking for was to become the works team for
Nissan. So I guess that's why he
committed to that, you know, to do a lot of development work and
then, you know, move. Whether I would have got the
drive or not, I don't know. But you know, they're moving to
be the official team and for whatever reason it didn't
happen. It didn't happen.
So, which was a shame, because you should have had that,
really. Had you been keeping an eye on
the BTCC most during that time away, Gary, before you came
back? Because we obviously here have a
a very soft spot for it and there were some classic races in
that period, weren't there? Yeah, there were.
I did, I did, I did a bit. Not a lot to be honest.
Was focused on what I was doing if you like, and but yeah,
obviously I did. It got more and more popular.
That's for sure, yes. Yeah, we were going to How had
it progressed? Because you've got wings and you
know all sorts splitters on the cars by then, aren't you?
From 1996 was a massive change. Massive changes, yeah.
I mean, you know, the manufacturers got heavily
involved in it. It became a big business, didn't
it, For them, you know, with AR and the the wings, the splitter
in the boot and all the rest of it.
They were, they were, they were throwing everything at it.
Which did you prefer? The the, the cars prior to the
era or or after with the? With the.
I never really drove, you know, like the, the, the, you know,
the pucker, touring car if you like.
So I've got nothing to to really relate that to so that that'll
be difficult to answer that. I often dream about that now.
I think, oh, nobody like to drive one now.
They look easy in my day, you know, it was all, you know,
blood slot and piss coming out of just every orifice.
Try and keep it on the in a straight line.
But you know, they seem to be like crews in there, you know,
and it seems to be a bit easier. So I must have a word with
Dickie. See if he can give me the car.
It's it's a shame those 96 Nissan's didn't really perform
because they did look great, didn't they for.
What it were Yeah, they did. They looked lovely.
That was when you used the 94 Primera.
It was, yes. I think no.
Which was? Which was?
Driven by Sasha Masson. Yeah.
I don't know. I don't know what year that was.
It probably was, yeah. Yes, the the Nissans at the the
the those Nissans at the start of the year were 95 ones that
were run in the STW and your car was Sasha Masson's car which was
built in 94. Oh, there you go.
I've got the old one. Yeah.
That was with Jamie. Spence was driving with me then.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm friends with Jamie.
Jamie. Jamie was a cracking driver.
He's the somebody that should have made it, you know, because
he could, he could pretty much drive anything, that boy, he was
quick in formula three, quick in formula four, quick in in
anything. You know, he he should have
definitely made it. Yeah, the other the other team
mate you had that year was Owen McCauley.
He did a couple of races as well.
He did. He did.
But it was was it a real struggle because those cars were
were not the newest cars and and it it, it seemed like you had a
pretty tricky year that year. Oh yeah, it's bloody hard work,
you know, up to, you know, to the up to
But in the race the car was good and I made a lot of progress in
the race till I came across Patrick Ah.
Yes, I remember that. Yeah, then.
So I signed them all. Yeah, I got past him and he
didn't like it and he smacked me up the arse and it bent the
exhaust. So then it all it caught fire,
basically the car. Yes, of course, yes, because
there was that, that was the race where you pulled over and
the the car was full of smoke. And that's right.
Yeah, that's that wasn't very nice, but I think I T boned him
mad. No, I think I T Yeah.
Didn't you? Make contact coming out of
Clark. Yeah, through through the left,
onto the railway straight. I remember Murray Walker going,
oh, he's really lost it, but obviously he hit him.
Yeah, yeah. Gave him a little bit of a help
in hand. Patrick was involved in quite a
few scrapes though, wasn't he? Yeah, well, as he said himself
on this show before. He does, yeah.
He freely admits that to be yeah.
But no good times and I learned a lot, really.
Like I say, I wasn't born into motorsport, so it's been a
pretty good life and I've I've made something of it, you know,
even after racing cars, if you like.
And I think you know when it when your time's up.
And while I was doing Le Mans, I can't remember who I was doing
it for. And that that's when I quit.
Really. I thought, do you know what?
You know, I'm not getting off of the drives and the opportunities
are getting less. And you know, I didn't really
want to, I didn't want to drive a car.
I was going to hurt myself. And that that tends to happen
because you get into maybe not such good cars, not competitive
cars, the. Sales aren't as good, are they?
No. And I and I I didn't want to do
that. So I gave up at Le Mans.
Really. That was the last year I did Le
Mans. I might have done a couple of
races afterwards, but that's pretty much it.
You did mention McLaren though. That was 97.
Wasn't it the first ever FIAGT championship?
That was AV12 engine. Wasn't it parabolic, a
motorsport? What was that like?
That must have been. Beautiful, you know, Gordon
Murray design and built, fantastic engine, you know, it's
so refined compared to the Ferrari.
It's a better chalk and cheese compared to Ferrari.
Quite fortunately if you like I've driven 2 eras of cars but
you know like I say the Ferrari was all sort of blood slot and
Pierce and now hang on we do a life and but the McLaren was so
refined you know with the gear leave at the sequential box was
beautiful you know it was it was lovely car to drive.
Well, we won the race in car then, wasn't it?
Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah, it was proper.
We were, we were, you know, we're a privateer team, but we
we did all right, really up against the works teams, You
know, they had different tires, so we were always going to be
half a second back. Anyway, whatever you did, you
didn't make any difference, you know, because they they had a
different tire to us factory cars.
But it was. But there's plenty of good,
light, talented drivers within that field of that championship
at that time, so you did pull off some good results.
Yeah, you know, JJ was in there, wasn't he?
You know, Merck drivers were doing it.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, McNeese was in a Porsche, I think, at some .0.
It's pretty good, people. Big time for GT racing, wasn't
it that huge? Late, like late 90s.
It was a big period of GT racing, yeah.
Yeah, some proper cars. I.
Can't remember. I can't remember what year we
were pre qualifying and we weren't.
I think it must have been 97 with the McLaren.
We're right on the bubble all the time.
It was bloody hard work to get a car into the race, you know, let
alone finish the race. And I was pre qualifying and the
lad in front of me went over the barrack.
Anyway, he got killed. And you sort of know, You sort
of know And you come back into the pits and you sit in there
and then you have to go. And then you have to go again
and you go, yeah, well, I'll go. I'll go and do it now then.
Do you know what I mean? It's it's no news, isn't it?
It's when you don't hear the news, you know it's bad.
Yeah, it's pretty bad and but you know, you got to go and do
it and it's, it's quite weird really Cos when you're just
sitting in there and I'm not, you know, hundreds of drivers
have have had the same experience as me.
But you, you're sitting in there in in a garage or whatever,
waiting to go out and it and it and it's, it's not great.
But then the moment you turn right and then you're going down
the pit lane and you get to the end of the pit lane, it's all
gone. You forget about.
It now I now I need now I need to do this.
When you did call it a day on the driving side after a few
years away, you returned to touring cars back in 2000 and
this time it was on the other side of the pit wall.
What sort of drew you to that sort of decision to go into team
management and setting up Gary Ailes Motorsport?
Well, I I loved it and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to
do after after driving a car, so I didn't, you know, I couldn't
do anything else. I wasn't qualified to do
anything else anyway, apart from being a mechanic.
It's like a footballer going into management, isn't it?
Yeah, I feel like it's the next thing to do.
And I I I really enjoyed it because I brought the alphas
over. So I wanted to bring something a
little bit different. And they from the, from the I
became friends with the Begatsi family.
So I got them from from Begatsi, who I'm still friends with now.
They were, they were good chassis and a good engine, but
very they were quite fragile. And I had Gavin, yeah, Gavin
Piper and Tom Ferrier. Gavin was was quick.
He was quick. But the car, you know let him
down and reliability. The boys should have won the
championship really, But I really, I really enjoyed seeing
him and Tom do well. I really got a buzz out of that.
You know, one seeing the young drivers do well, if you like.
And Gavin didn't really have any money, so we we sort of
sponsored him, you know, when he went into, when he drove the
Vauxhall, you know, I remember my accountant saying to me, he
said, are you in love with Gavin Piper?
Not really. He said, well, you need to stop
spending money, you know, because you're not going to have
a business left. But it.
But it was brilliant and we. Run out of money?
Yeah, we did run out of money, which was a shame, but he would
have won the the Privateer Championship easy.
I enjoyed that. I gave myself like five years
for that and I wanted to be an official team.
If I couldn't be an official team then, then I didn't want to
do it anymore because I've. I've got nothing against paying
drivers at all. But you know, if you want to win
championships and races then you you need a professional, You do.
And yeah, they got to be paid. You want to pay drivers because
you know what it means. To them, they've worked their
whole life for it, but you know you need to.
Do you know? Because you know you can you can
you can you can tell them you know you need to get your finger
out. Yeah, yeah, you can be the boss.
You. Turned into Andy Rouse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
A little bit, yeah. You had them stripping.
Gearboxes. Yeah, that's right.
Well, I think I. Remember once saying to the
drivers said that I'm going to treat you like we're paying you?
Because I know you're paying me, you know, to drive the carnival,
the rest of it. But I'm not going to blow smoke
up your ass. You know, I'm going to treat you
as if you're a professional racing driver because that's
what you want to be and that's what you're going to get.
You know, if you're fortunate enough to get there and
somebody's paying you a wage, then they're going to, they're
going to, you know, you're going to have to perform.
So, so yeah, it's some of some drivers didn't like it, but
that's because they've gone all their careers through karting.
And all the junior formers having the dad selling them the
best thing since lost bread. And that's unfortunately.
The. Era that we're in.
I mean, I remember we were at. Silverstone and one of the
drivers who remained nameless, you know, said, oh, this car's
shit, That's shit. This is shit.
Everything's shit. I went, we'll wait.
So I rung up Kelvin Burt, who was still asleep, obviously,
because he was always, he's always asleep.
I said, Kelvin, can you come to Silverstone and test the car?
He said yeah, that's all right guys.
Yeah, well, yeah. And he went like 4th quickest
in, you know, about 3 laps. He just got out of the car and
that was it. I just looked at the driver and
went what? What do you want me to say?
There we go. Yeah, there you go.
What did the? Anonymous driver say what can
what can you say? Yeah.
Yeah, Kelvin ended up gracing for you.
Didn't he, in the Astra at some? Yeah, it did.
That's right. That's the car he tested and
drove. He finished fourth, didn't he?
At Silverstone, I think it was, yeah.
He hadn't tested on nothing last night.
Yeah, just. He just turned.
Up. You know, he's pretty.
Useful when he's not asleep. He's so laid back, that boy,
it's unbelievable. But he's a very kind man, you
know? You know, if you're ever down,
you know he's a kind man. He's very sensitive here now,
when I'm not not in a great place or not feeling it or
whatever it is. And Kelvin will know.
Yeah, he's he's he's, he's a good boy.
Yeah, that's interesting because I always got the feeling just.
From, you know, I wasn't watching it at the time, but
looking at the BTCC season reviews now, if it feels like he
could be a bit Moody at times, but maybe that is the emotion
and the passion. Yeah, he he yeah, he.
Comes across that, but but he now he's, he's very kind.
Yeah, he's got a good heart, Kelvin.
Like you say, he doesn't come across as that, but he's pretty
sensitive to people, to be fair. See.
Were you quite close with him, Gary, when he had?
His massive accident at Alton Park, I didn't really know him
that well. At that point, no.
That he had a big on at Alton Park, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah, that hurt that one. Very lucky there.
Yeah, he was. That was.
One of them shunts and we've spoke.
About it before Gary on the on the on this podcast where you
know when you see a shunt and you just think yeah I.
Think he yeah. That.
This could be bad news. This because it was such a
monumental shunt. He stopped quick, didn't he?
That was a problem. That's very slow.
When he stopped that quick, yeah.
But But yeah, yeah, no, no, I enjoyed it.
The Super Touring era in the UK, we generally.
Luckily didn't have any big, big accidents, did we?
No, no, no. Not, not the people that, you
know that that didn't go home, if you like.
Yeah, that. No, I mean, you had obviously
poor Keith O. Odor, wasn't it?
Yeah, Yeah. When he got sideswiped, didn't
he? He got hit in the side, I think
it was, yeah, his driver's side, wasn't it?
Driver. 'S side, yeah.
And that's where Kelvin. Was lucky in in?
He was, yeah. Yeah, he.
Was yeah, there no we. As you say Greg, generally the
the, the, the big accidents, they didn't really have any
major consequences, which one of the biggest shunts I ever saw on
TV. Was Matt Neal coming out of
cops? Going up in the Mazda?
Wasn't it completely barrel roll?
The barrel just seems to go on forever.
Like, in terms of like spectacular shunt.
That was quite that was a big one.
You had Charlie at Thruxton? That was, yeah.
That was big, wasn't it He? Ended up in Andover, didn't he?
Yeah, yeah. Andover, Andover, Andover,
Andover. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah. For this series of stories from
Super. Touring We are delighted to be
teaming up with Brands Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super
Touring Power 2 which is being held at the famous circuit on
the 29th and 30th of June 2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of Touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question.
Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories from Super
Touring? Send your answers to Pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode this series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. Getting.
Back onto onto you. Gary, so you you drove, you
managed you you ran teams What what are you doing now?
What? What?
What are you up to these days? Well, I own a logistics.
Company so bespoke handling so we work for the in the
automotive industry at motorsport and a lot of private
clients that we have now but but that all stemmed from motor
racing. You know I remember I think I
was working hereth for for for Toyota and I just sort of got
and started to get involved in bespoke handling and logistics
and that. Yeah.
And it was just like this moment of thinking how's all this shit
get here you know because as as a racing driver whatever you
just turn up getting a car drive it and bugger off.
Yeah, you know, but there's an awful lot of work beforehand and
and the the logistics side of that is big.
It's a separate team of people, isn't it?
When you're looking at it, it is so.
Through my contacts at McLaren we managed to get the the gig
for the P1 GTR when we did that and it was all around the world.
So that was the first contract if you like, that we had and
it's just grown from there. So it's it's quite a big company
now. She's still.
It's still in motorsport then? Yes, I'm still in motorsport and
I love it. Yeah, I think you will.
We never leave it, do we? So you know, when all the, I
remember the lads, they were working at Kota and we'd shipped
all the shit out there, you know, cars and kit and
everything else. And I was driving one of the
forklifts and remember this, this young racing driver sort of
just like taking a piss a little bit.
I went actually a more money driving this forklift than you
do sitting in in that car where you're actually just ballast,
you know, they're so. Fast.
Nowadays, these Rd. cars, I mean you would not want to be an
instructor nowadays. Well, I wouldn't, no.
I mean, they're doing like 190 odd miles an hour down down the
street at at Monza. You know that's ridiculous in a
road car, hoping they're going to hit the right pedal at the
yeah. With some Joey sitting next
year, you. Know I read as well that.
You'd consider going back into team management at some point if
that was, if that opportunity arose, Is that right?
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
We're going through like maybe to sell the company so if that
all goes through you know I'd I need to waste some money so
probably set up another racing team but I would, I'd like to do
it again. I think I learnt a lot in the in
the years I did it and I wouldn't make the same mistakes
if you'd like. But would you go straight to the
BTCC or would you? Look at the formulas.
No. I would start probably.
In so GT4, maybe around the GT4, just yeah.
And then yeah, and get things going, get you to get into
touring cars. You need to go in at the right
level, you know, with the right people around you.
So I'll probably go go into GT racing to start with, and the
cars are good out-of-the-box there as well aren't.
They where they're all very even.
Easy, easy. So you can, you know, you can
get yourself, right. So I would like to do that.
I would like to do that at some point.
So fingers crossed if I sell the company I I might do it.
We talked Gary about BBC. Grandstand before, didn't we?
With Murray Walker and how the BTCC became so huge in the 90s
in, you know, our favorite era. Even when with GAO Motorsport in
2000 there was still a selection of live races then weren't there
on BBC grands. There was, yes.
How? Difficult would it be now?
Do you think running a team with the fact you don't have
terrestrial television anymore and everything's behind
paywalls, has that changed things from a it must have
changed things a lot from a commercial standpoint, What you
mean being able to raise? The money to be able to give and
sponsor interest and all that sort of thing.
Yeah, I guess, I mean. You know, I, I, I'm, I know Mark
Blundell so I know you know his his business and what they do
and they they seem to manage to they seem to find the money if
you like to go into it. But I I don't know what it's
like now. You know we didn't have to do
that quite so much. It's always been you know the
driver comes along with some with money that that's just how
it's always been if you like and until the manufacturers get
involved and this is what we're talking about the quality of
drivers and I'm not saying they're all shit at all.
I'm not, you know, some of the paying, you know, still amazing
drivers but if you get the manufacturers back involved then
that's when you that's when you get the paid drivers and that's
that whole super Tory. Look at it.
You know how do you alpha BM bring their own drivers in?
Yeah, I think you know everybody on the.
Grid one, certainly probably in Italy, but and in the UK were
probably paid. I think it was pretty much
everybody on the grid was paid. Yeah, I think that was what
that's not. The case now when we, when we.
Chatted. With Reedy about about the
quality of the field back then, he said.
You know, there were more paid drivers in BTCC than they were
in Formula One at the time. Yeah, I think.
I think he's very. Very true.
That was the level of competition.
At the time and that was the level of the the manufacturers
were pumping in that much money. It's yeah, they were.
I I remember testing with Anthony.
Reed, We were testing at Castlecombe in Touring cars and
that that was for the Nissan drive.
I love Anthony. If he's such a character.
Yes, he is. Yeah.
And we were. We were.
Testing and. And and he just he said Gary
says he's very well spoken. He said Gary said he said I do
have to tell you said I'd rather die than be slower than you.
I went, all right, well, this is Castle Coombs for anything's
possible. And it's possible.
It's very bumpy. Yeah, you could have to drive.
Anthony, it's all right. You know, don't worry about it.
He was actually quicker than me, but he was prepared, had to die.
So it's a great impression, Yeah.
How can I? Say that that was a great
impression. Actually, who who were some of
the standout? Driver.
Characters maybe, you know, off screen, Gary through the 90s and
the BTCC in particular, I'm guessing.
I think I know who you're probably going to say, but
Jason. Plato.
Yeah. I was thinking maybe?
JC as well, yeah, Yeah, I mean. Yeah.
What Clenon do you mean? Yeah, I'm interested to know
now. What made you say?
Plato so quickly? Oh well.
I've had a few nights out of. Play so it's great, yeah, Yeah.
But I'll leave it there with him, yeah.
Clenand was a clever bugger really because he he, he, I'll
be in a clash at Donnington at Redgate first corner.
And. But he or or what he used to do,
if you ever had a coming together with him, he would
blame you straight away because he was a bit more experienced.
You know what I mean? He'd just blame you straight
away and because you were young and go, oh, oh, was it me?
Do you know what I mean? He just, you know, he was good
at that. He was good at that.
But yeah, but he was pretty clever.
Clever. Yeah, he was.
He was. He played.
Mind games. Yes, yes, I know he.
Spoke particularly about the mind games he played with Ricard
in 95. Yeah, he's pretty good coming up
trim. On the grid and just sort of
saying, well. I'm just going to overtake you
on the inside. You OK, Rick, You know, and and
it would happen because it was in Rickard's head.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's. Yeah, Very clever, man.
Yeah. I had struggled with that, you
know, with Giovannardi. I remember once that we ended up
on a grid with no mirrors, no wing mirrors.
It was on the wall map lap. We'd been winding each other up
and actually sitting on the grid.
She haven't got any mirrors left, but but yeah, there's a
lot of mind games in motorsport. I'd like to thank Gary for
spending some of his. Valuable time with us today on
Stories from Super Touring. Gary, thank you so much for
coming on the show. Really appreciate it and thank
you for having. Me.
Can I get down the pub now? Yes, I can.
Have a beer? Meanwhile, We'll be back.
Next week when we're joined by motorsport photographer Greg
Denton to look back at the memorable European Grand Prix
support race at Donnington in 1993.
Until then, goodbye.