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Stories from Super Touring. 
Hello and welcome to this week's

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episode of Stories From Super 
Touring. 

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Levi's on holiday this week, so 
joining myself and Adam instead 

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is Eurosports World Super Bike 
commentator Greg Haynes. 

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Greg, you've come back for more.
Yes, sadly for the listeners, I 

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guess. 
Alex, I can only apologise, you 

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stuck with me for another week, 
so I'm sorry about that. 

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No, I'm sure it's great. 
Let's have you back. 

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And our guest this week is a man
who's just about seen it all in 

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the world of touring car racing 
from racing for Toyota and 

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Nissan in the BTCC. 
He spent three years racing for 

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Peugeot in the Italian Touring 
Car Championship too. 

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He's also been a team manager 
and owned his own touring car 

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race team. 
It's Gary Ailes. 

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Gary, welcome to stories from 
Super Turian today. 

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Yeah. 
How are you doing? 

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I'm. 
I'm good. 

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Thank you. 
And thank you for having me on. 

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Oh, no problem at all. 
We'll start really at the 

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beginning. 
Was the car bug something that 

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was in you from the start? 
Were you Were you always 

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interested in motorsport and 
racing and cars, or is it 

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something that developed later 
on? 

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No, it's definitely something 
that developed later on in life.

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None of my family were involved 
in motorsport at all. 

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I used to be a mechanic 
actually, before I started 

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racing, but well, I I say that I
they all think they invented 

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joyriding, but I used to borrow 
my mum's car when I was about 14

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and have just have a mooch 
about. 

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I never crashed or anything, by 
the way, but it was my dad then 

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that thought, probably best we 
get this out of his system. 

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So they sent me to Brands Hatch 
to the racing school when I was 

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14 and hooned around there for a
little while and that's really 

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where I got the bug for it, if 
you like. 

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But I had to carry on school and
did my apprenticeship and all 

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the rest of it and then started 
in Formula Ford where we managed

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to save up enough money. 
Yeah, actually, talking of 

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Formula Ford, you made your 
debut there in 1985, I think it 

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was Gary, and then you're second
in the 1600 Junior Championship,

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labeled as a Star of Tomorrow, 
the only the Young Driver of the

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Year award. 
So I guess it happened quite 

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quickly, didn't it? 
All these big things started 

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happening. 
It did. 

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It was crazy really because I 
was just, you know, a boy from 

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Crawley lived in Pound Hill. 
You know as a family we didn't 

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have a lot of money or anything 
to do it. 

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So it was and and I was never 
really exposed to it. 

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It was just my dad in the ended 
ended up making a little bit of 

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money if you like. 
And it was his passion for sure.

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And he bought a formula Ford. 
So we bought John Pratt's 

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Formula Ford and basically I was
just chucked in the deep end and

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and literally as as simple as 
that. 

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So no carting. 
I mean, the only carting I did 

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was my dad made me, you know, 
wooden go Kart if you like. 

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And that's that's all I had as a
kid. 

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You know, we lived at the top of
this hill, so just used to Hoon 

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down it all the time. 
But I've always had a I've 

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always enjoyed it, you know what
I mean? 

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Naturally just enjoyed it I 
guess. 

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What about Formula 42000 as 
well? 

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And the BBC Grandstand Trophy? 
I mean, we here on stories from 

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Super Tour and we used to talk a
lot about the TV coverage. 

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It's not quite the same, is it, 
now without Grandstand? 

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No, it's not. 
No, you're absolutely right. 

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I think it was Murray Walker 
commentated on it When I did the

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BBC Grandstand series, that was 
just like four or five races. 

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I think that we did there and 
yeah, I had, I think I had 4 

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poles out of five races or 
something like that, but I quite

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enjoyed slicks and wings, 
bearing in mind I hadn't ever 

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done any karting. 
As soon as I got to slicks and 

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wings I quite enjoyed it. 
Talking of wings, Gary, so in 

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was it 1987 you went over to F3 
with W Surrey? 

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Yes. 
Yeah. 

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I started off with tech speed 
with them first in formula three

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and we we basically run out of 
money. 

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But text people great to me, you
know Marvin Humphreys really 

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helped me as he's helped a lot 
of drivers actually. 

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He's a cool guy, he really is. 
And he helped me and he ran me 

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for as long as he could, you 
know until the money ran out if 

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you like. 
And we we we managed to get bits

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of money together, but it was 
always a bit fragmented, if you 

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like. 
Yeah. 

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So when you did go the W Surrey 
route in 87, what was it like 

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sort of getting into nitty 
gritty that meeting. 

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Obviously Dick Bennett's very 
well known in in BTCC paddock 

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form, the Three Paddocks and 
obviously at that point they 

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were running Hackenham. 
Yeah, I mean, you know what? 

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Was that like? 
Well, Dicky's a legend, as we 

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all know. 
You know, there's not a lot he 

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can't do. 
That boy. 

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And we managed to get some money
together. 

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It was actually sponsored by 
hardcore jeans for that, for 

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that event. 
And we managed to get enough 

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money to do the one race with 
Dicky. 

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And it was amazing, you know, 
his team and the way he does it 

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and all the rest of it. 
And I was sort of qualifying in 

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a midfield 10/11/12. 
All of a sudden I was on the 

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front two rows, you know, and I 
hadn't really changed anything 

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I'd done. 
He was, he just knew how to 

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engineer a car. 
Well, he's really been. 

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Genie actually engineered me. 
I. 

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Suppose from a from a racing 
driver's point of view, you 

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always have that doubt, don't 
you? 

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To begin with of of is it me? 
Is it the car? 

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Is it am I just not fast enough?
Then all of a sudden he said 

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you've done nothing different. 
Yeah, you've just gone to a 

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proper team that had to do 
things properly and give you the

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best package that you can. 
Obviously we still see this in 

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Formula One now and you know 
motorbikes the same and and you 

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know in all forms you can only 
really be as good as the 

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equipment that you're given. 
So it's probably good for you 

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then to just sort of just think 
actually I'm doing all right. 

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It it was it was it was good for
the soul if you like to think. 

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Well actually I'm you know, 
maybe I'm not that bad. 

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I do remember watching though. 
I crashed at Dingle Dell you 

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know brands Grand Prix circuit 
in Formula Three. 

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I can't remember who I was 
driving for, but I was watching 

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Mika and he was in a Reynard at 
that time and that year the 

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Reynard actually wasn't a very 
good car. 

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And I remember sitting on the 
bank watching him going, yeah, I

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probably need to get another job
watching him go through Dingle 

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Dell, you know, he, he could 
tell he was he was better, he 

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was better, you know, he could 
just watch it and see it really.

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And I I think he won the race 
and the car wasn't great that 

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year, but all. 
Right, Didn't he? 

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He did do bad, didn't he? 
Didn't do too bad. 

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Yeah. 
That's do you know that's 

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interesting guys, because what 
you've just said, Gary, reminds 

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me of something John Watson said
once that same part Dingle Dell 

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into Sterling's Senna came past 
him. 

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Yeah. 
Crikey, I think it's time to 

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retire. 
Yeah, that's right. 

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It's quite. 
Funny how you had that same sort

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of experience with hacking. 
Yeah, no, you know, total 

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respect, you know, for, for the 
drivers, if you like, and 

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especially for Mika. 
But I mean, I was team mates 

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with a lot of really good 
people, you know, Johnny 

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Herbert, you know, Mika Hakkin 
and of course the legend in 

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touring cars, Andy Rouse. 
You know, he's not slow. 

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Not only is he not slow, he's 
quite bright. 

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You know, I was a bit green, I 
think, when I was with him. 

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On on the subject of team mates 
Gary. 

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Out of all the ones that you've 
had in Formula 3IN touring cars,

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who would be the toughest one 
you've had? 

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Well, probably Giovinardi, I 
would say, you know, because he 

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was five times world champion, 
but we're in the same team for 

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three years. 
So you know, he did kick my ass 

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a couple of times and he he he, 
he was pretty special on his 

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day. 
He was almost unbeatable in a, 

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but he was Italian, so he'd be 
like this, you know, be up and 

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down a little bit and I could 
wind him up, you know, on the 

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grid and stuff like that. 
We used to wind each other up 

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and I used to get the better of 
him sometimes with that and you 

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get all really angry and 
frustrated. 

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You know, they try and knock you
off, which you did a couple of 

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times actually. 
There was no love lost with him,

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that's for sure. 
Interesting. 

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I mean going back to the the F3 
days there, I mean it sounded 

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like, you know, things were 
going well, you were doing well 

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in the in in the Formula Three 
ranks, but then suddenly you're 

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sidelined by a a road car crash 
and you're quite severely 

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injured. 
Yeah, that that, that, that that

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that was pretty big. 
That was I was on my way to 

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Brands Hatch actually and I hit 
a lorry, but I was doing 90 

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miles an hour at the time. 
So it stopped pretty quick. 

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Yeah, yeah, that that that 
changed a lot in my life, not 

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just through the motorsport. 
I test tested for Eddie Jordan 

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actually for the Stelle Red 
Drive. 

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So, and there was a lot of 
opportunities around at that 

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point but you know, clearly that
put pay to that. 

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I think Eddie came to see me in 
hospital just to make sure I was

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actually fucked, you know, 
because. 

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You rented the track for you, 
yeah. 

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He's definitely fucked, yeah, 
yeah, driving anything, but no, 

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they're all there. 
A lot of people come to see me, 

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actually. 
It was very nice. 

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It was quite humbling. 
A lot of people came to see me. 

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Wow. 
So did your whole life not flash

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in front of you, Gary? 
I mean, how badly were you 

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actually injured? 
Yeah, I broke both my legs, my 

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arm, back, head injury. 
Yeah, Number, number of things. 

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Really looking to be walking. 
They will only be alive. 

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Yeah, they said that I'll never 
race again. 

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I remember them telling me when 
I was in hospital, the doctor 

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said look Gary, he said you 
won't be racing again. 

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I went, I think I will, but I 
had about 5 operations on my 

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right leg to to keep it so. 
So yeah, it was hard getting 

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back in the car. 
So how how long did it take you 

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from the moment where you had 
the crash until you was you was 

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back at it going grotesque 
that's. 

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Probably probably a year back in
the car, but I I came back too 

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early so I came back to do 
Vauxhall Lotus. 

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We'd lost all the money and all 
the opportunities anyway, but I 

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got an opportunity to drive a 
Vauxhall Lotus and I went back 

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too early because I got internal
bleeding. 

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I finished fourth, actually. 
In the race there was internal 

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bleeding on my right leg, so 
that's all you know. 

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I had to step out a bit for a 
while. 

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Talking to Vauxhall Lotus 
Challenge, I saw a poster of 

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that the other day when I was 
doing a bit of research and 

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there were some big names in 
that series. 

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You had the likes of Mcnish, 
Phillip. 

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Adams. 
That's right. 

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Yeah, David Brabham again. 
Mika was in it. 

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It that's that's there's some 
big names in that series. 

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Yeah, Justin Bell, they run a 
team, didn't they, in in it as 

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well? 
There's some, yeah, there's some

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good lads in there and the 
European side of it was very 

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strong as well. 
For this series of stories from 

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Super Touring, we are delighted 
to be teaming up with Brands 

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Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 
Super Touring Power 2, which is 

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being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 

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2024. 
The award nominated event was a 

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smash hit last year when it's 
debut edition transported fans 

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back to the 90s and this year's 
event will once again celebrate 

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one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. 

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00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,440
To enter the competition, just 
answer the following question. 

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00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,880
Who was the first ever guest to 
star on Stories From Super 

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Touring? 
Send your answers to Pod at 

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00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,000
1990s btcc.com and we'll 
announce the winner on a later 

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episode this series. 
Meanwhile, let's get back to the

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00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:01,560
episode. 
I get the impression Gary and 

223
00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,960
David didn't even doubt in your 
mind that you would not get back

224
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,000
in a racing car again, but in 
reality it must have been touch.

225
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:09,960
Very touching. 
Go. 

226
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,120
Yeah, it. 
Yeah, it was. 

227
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,720
I never doubted it that I'll get
back in. 

228
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,520
I mean everybody said that I 
wasn't as quick as I was, but I 

229
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,240
think maybe just people say that
I I don't, I don't really feel 

230
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,720
that at all. 
But well, I didn't feel it at 

231
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,560
all then. 
But now I was determined to get 

232
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:28,240
back. 
It was unfinished business 

233
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,960
really I wanted to do. 
I wanted to carry on, you know, 

234
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,360
that's really I guess where you 
know touring cars and world 

235
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,880
sports cars sort of came into it
really, you know my Formula One 

236
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,440
opportunities. 
There wasn't any and we, we 

237
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,440
weren't incredibly rich as a 
family, so I was never, and I 

238
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,640
didn't have any big sponsors, so
I had to lose that dream after 

239
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,720
that, really. 
So it's in 1988 when you did the

240
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,600
Vauxhall Lotus, that was also 
the time when you debuted with 

241
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,480
Andy Rouse in the BTCC in the 
Sierra Cosmos at. 

242
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,040
Donnington George's race, I 
can't remember. 

243
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,560
That was before I signed for for
Toyota. 

244
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:06,840
It might have been before, 
wasn't it? 

245
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,400
But I don't get that. 
Brad Sach, yeah, because I was 

246
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,960
getting married that weekend and
I remember Andy ringing saying, 

247
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,360
look, do you want to come and 
drive the car? 

248
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,720
And I went, well, I'm getting 
married. 

249
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:22,960
And he went. 
And so I went and did the race, 

250
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,040
yeah. 
So, OK. 

251
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,840
So just going off base slightly,
yeah. 

252
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,600
Didn't. 
Tell you are you married to the 

253
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,040
lady that that that used you to 
marry on that day? 

254
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,160
No, I'm. 
Not married anymore? 

255
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:35,400
No. 
Anyway. 

256
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,320
Yeah, shit happens. 
Yeah. 

257
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,880
She was a. 
Bit some predicament isn't? 

258
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,360
It yeah, I remember after we 
got, you know, we got married, 

259
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,000
all the rest of it, and it was a
bit of a party. 

260
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,200
It's a lot but I've got to go to
bed because obviously I'm racing

261
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,280
in the morning. 
She just sort of looked at me 

262
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,000
and went really? 
See you later, yeah. 

263
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,000
That didn't get down to though, 
so. 

264
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,800
When when you did do that race 
in the Cosworth at Donnington, 

265
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,960
the endurance race, what like 
the first time in a dinner 

266
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,720
Cosworth. 
So, I mean, I've had the 

267
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,280
pleasure of driving one of these
at at Snetterton, and I know how

268
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,160
enjoyable it was for me, and a 
bit of a lifelong childhood 

269
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,400
dream really. 
But how was it for you? 

270
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,400
It was fantastic, you know, 
especially to sit in Andy's car,

271
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,960
you know, because he was, he was
the king of it all at that 

272
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,480
point. 
And the car was awesome. 

273
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,720
And I remember getting in it, 
going out the pit lane. 

274
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,680
I put my foot on the throttle. 
It's like nothing happened. 

275
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,600
So that's just boring and also. 
Pinned you back in the seat, 

276
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,200
yeah. 
It's going up the pit lane going

277
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,880
shit. 
Want to grab a gear? 

278
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,800
You know I. 
See what? 

279
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,600
That's what I said to the guys 
before and I find it so funny 

280
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,000
and I'd love to do it again. 
I just find when I when I drove 

281
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,440
the cars worth it. 
I just found one hands always on

282
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,240
the wheel because he needed to 
be, but one was constantly on 

283
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,880
the gear shifter because he just
wanted more gears. 

284
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,520
Yeah, it just keeps shifting up 
when the when the turbos come 

285
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:47,400
in. 
Absolutely. 

286
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,880
It's just absolute bonkers. 
But yeah, real. 

287
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,800
That was good, I think. 
I don't. 

288
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,800
We didn't do the race. 
We started the race and there 

289
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,920
was a problem with the car, so, 
right. 

290
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,480
Anyway, probably my marriage 
afterwards as well. 

291
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,000
So that was obviously your first
relate race with Rouse. 

292
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,040
That was the start of then. 
What seems to be a pretty close 

293
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:12,960
good relationship between you 
two? 

294
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,440
What was Andy like and you know,
is was it a close relationship? 

295
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,000
Was it as close as it seemed? 
Yeah, he he was, he was hard. 

296
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,200
He was, you know, and he was a, 
he was a winner. 

297
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,520
You know, he was a clever 
engineer and he was a racer, but

298
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,560
he was hard and you know, he 
didn't suffer falls. 

299
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,240
And I remember I used to one of 
the first actually to do it, but

300
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,960
I used to flat shift, you know, 
before he had gear cuts or 

301
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,680
anything like that. 
So I just used to leave my foot 

302
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,360
buried on the throttle and I 
just kicked the clutch and 

303
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,040
changed gear and it was quicker 
because I I won. 

304
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,000
I did it in the Bologna Motors 
show against Giovanni and I beat

305
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,720
him in the final and they 
couldn't figure out how I'd 

306
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,680
beaten him and the only 
difference was that I was I was 

307
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,400
doing that basically anyway so I
did it. 

308
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,160
I did it with Andy 1st and I 
remember he took the gearbox 

309
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:04,720
apart and he also like fell 
apart. 

310
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,240
You know, all the dog rings were
fucked and everything He he, I 

311
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,000
had to go to the workshop and 
take the gearbox out. 

312
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,360
That's what he was like. 
He said you need, you know, 

313
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,200
although I was paid, actually I 
was being paid by Toyota. 

314
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,440
He said you need to come to the 
workshop. 

315
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,400
You can take that out and see 
what you're doing to it. 

316
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,920
Yeah. 
He said you need to know, you 

317
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,080
know, you need to get an idea. 
And I I used to be a mechanic so

318
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,600
I could do it, but that's what 
he was like. 

319
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,360
Yeah, he was pretty hard. 
Yeah, I crashed at Thruxton and 

320
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,160
I did have a a brake problem. 
I crashed at going into the 

321
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,400
chicane, which, and I actually 
hurt myself and there was no 

322
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,120
emotion on his face at all, you 
know. 

323
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,000
Yeah. 
Look what you've done. 

324
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,160
What you've done, you know. 
Oh, I heard a bit, Andy. 

325
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,000
Yeah, whatever. 
But, you know, your car's 2 foot

326
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,280
shorter now. 
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I learnt

327
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:56,920
so much from him. 
I did. 

328
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,200
So if you crashed a rouse car, 
Gary, were you feeling more? 

329
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,960
Not this is going to hurt, but 
this is going to this is going 

330
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,760
to be a big problem when I get 
back to the pit. 

331
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,240
Well, yeah, it was because you 
know you're going to get a 

332
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,320
bollocking, but. 
But to be driving for the team 

333
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,720
owner though as well and 
alongside the team owner must 

334
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,320
come with an added pressure, 
surely? 

335
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,440
Yeah, it it, it did. 
And like I say, he was a he was 

336
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,240
a legend in it anyway. 
And I was, I guess, you know, a 

337
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,240
cocky young racing driver 
thinking, well, I'll beat this 

338
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,640
old Git. 
It won't be a problem, you know,

339
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,120
and and that wasn't the case, 
that wasn't the because he's a 

340
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,160
very clever man. 
And not only that, he's quick as

341
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,280
well. 
So but yeah, it was pretty hard.

342
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,240
You had to learn. 
Inside information Gary on when 

343
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,080
when Will Hoy and Andy collided 
at Pilgrim's drop in 92 and they

344
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,600
went clattering off into the 
barriers. 

345
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,840
Did you any hear, you know, hear
in the aftermath from that? 

346
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,480
That was a classic. 
Yeah, that was a classic. 

347
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,120
No, none of them were going to 
lift, were they? 

348
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,720
You know, and Andy certainly 
wasn't going to lift. 

349
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,840
No, I didn't hear anything. 
I didn't hear anything. 

350
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,040
He, he wouldn't say anything 
anyway. 

351
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,080
Andy he He wouldn't say a word. 
All, all, Lip says. 

352
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,960
It wasn't his fault. 
Yeah, you're asking the other 

353
00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,280
drivers, and it wasn't their 
fault either. 

354
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,280
That's right. 
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

355
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,600
So by the time you were into 
touring cars, did you feel like 

356
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,240
I'm here now? 
This is the place to be? 

357
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,079
There was no going back then to 
a sort of single seater or. 

358
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,119
Definitely not single seater, no
world sports cars is what I 

359
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,079
wanted to to, you know, to get 
into, which I did in the end, 

360
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,160
you know, because where do you 
go from, you know, I mean the 

361
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,599
boys, some of the boys were 
fortunate enough to get multiple

362
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,920
contracts, if you like, and the 
money started to go up. 

363
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,800
You know, they were paid huge 
money at the end and I didn't 

364
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,160
have that, partly because I left
the UK and went to Italy. 

365
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,400
And the reason I went to Italy 
was the Italians were looking, 

366
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,680
if you like, for some more 
international drivers. 

367
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,560
It was just perfect timing and I
finished third at brands in the 

368
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,400
Toyota when the Peugeot people 
were at brands just watching. 

369
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,440
So I got a call that way and 
then I got invited to do a race 

370
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,840
at Monza in in the S2 class for 
Peugeot and I won the race. 

371
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,280
I've never been there before but
I won it. 

372
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,960
So on the strength of that, they
gave me a three-year deal. 

373
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,680
So yeah, you know, the money was
not quite as good in Italy, but 

374
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,840
you know, nevertheless it was a 
three-year deal. 

375
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,840
That's what I wanted. 
Talking of Toyota then, so that 

376
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,920
was in 91 when you had your 
first full BTCC season alongside

377
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,280
Rouse. 
Did that just come about with 

378
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,640
obviously a relationship already
with Andy from the from the 

379
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,760
Sierra day and then just having 
that relationship and and I'm 

380
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,560
guessing that Karina and and you
know the Tota and the Sierra was

381
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,360
absolutely chalk and cheese to 
drive, weren't they? 

382
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:29,520
They were completely different, 
yeah. 

383
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,880
Rear wheel drive to front wheel 
drive, if you like. 

384
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,120
I never really had a problem 
moving from one to the other, to

385
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,160
be honest. 
I probably preferred front wheel

386
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,400
drive. 
I found it a bit, yeah, a bit 

387
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,760
more comfortable I guess. 
You know, I think if you come 

388
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,320
from, if you've been karting all
your life, as, you know, as a 

389
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,440
kid, you know going sideways is,
you know, it's just part of it. 

390
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,600
But I I was never really 
comfortable with that. 

391
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,000
I was more comfortable with a 
tad of understeer, probably. 

392
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,520
You always think going sideways 
is a is a slower option. 

393
00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,680
Is this like? 
A slower option? 

394
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,480
Yeah, yeah. 
And I'd rather have just a tad 

395
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,160
of understeer, you know, so you 
can push a bit harder into the 

396
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,120
first part of the corner. 
Yeah, if you like. 

397
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,360
And you've controlled the 
understeer on the on the first 

398
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,280
part. 
Because the last thing you want 

399
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,480
is a tad of oversteer. 
Because of the point of turning 

400
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,200
him to fast corner, you don't 
know if it is a tad of overture.

401
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,320
It's going to be a monumental 
amount of oversteer. 

402
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,880
So I know what he's saying. 
I I prefer to control the 

403
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,040
understeer on the throttle than 
the oversteer because once you 

404
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,840
get so far on the you know with 
the oversteers you've lost all 

405
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,000
the time anyway so. 
So yeah, probably be preferred 

406
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,480
preferred front wheel drive. 
Alex Clark has kindly compiled 

407
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,520
some stats for us though Gary 6 
finishes from 15 starts in 91. 

408
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,160
Why? 
Was it a reliability problem or 

409
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,960
because it was a good car? 
Remember, Andy went at 

410
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,720
Donnington, didn't he? 
That was a particularly good 

411
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,680
start. 
Yeah, well, it was a good car. 

412
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,800
I got wiped out by Frank Sitner,
one of those. 

413
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,400
Right. 
Yeah, yeah. 

414
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,640
Yeah, bastard. 
Like what we're? 

415
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,760
Sitting alike actually, Gary, 
because he's he's someone we 

416
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,440
don't really hear much about 
these days. 

417
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,920
I believe he was quite a a 
prickly, complicated character. 

418
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,040
Is that fair to say? 
Yeah, he was a little bit. 

419
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,880
He definitely was a little bit. 
I don't know what happened in 

420
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,080
the other ones. 
I I guess we had I had a an 

421
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,160
engine, a couple of engine 
failures and things like that. 

422
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,240
Thruxton, we all do particularly
well, the engine shit itself. 

423
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,080
So Alton Park, I was going like 
a train. 

424
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,480
I think I broke the lap record. 
Lap after lap after lap and then

425
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,840
fell off like you do, got a bit 
excited and then ended up 

426
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,480
falling off somewhere. 
But so yeah, we had a few, yeah,

427
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:29,960
I didn't have. 
I didn't really have that many 

428
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,560
shunts, I don't think here. 
We are a few. 

429
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,320
Failures. 
Talking back at that that double

430
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,400
header at Brands Hatch where 
obviously we now subsequently 

431
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,240
know you've just said that 
Peugeot were there watching and 

432
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,360
offered you a drive on the 
strength of your third place in 

433
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,120
in round one. 
And then obviously as we've just

434
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,520
said now, you had that collision
on the warm up lap with with Mr.

435
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Sitner chance for possible wind 
gone is that? 

436
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,240
Yeah I I think it I think it was
actually because but my clutch 

437
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,440
had gone on on on the on the 
warm up lap so when I come up to

438
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,960
the grid the clutch went so 
that's why I I lost my grid 

439
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,120
place on on on the warm up lap 
because I had no clutch. 

440
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,880
So I just had to try and smash 
it into gear and then you know 

441
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,520
try to regain my grid position 
which and I'd have to do it all 

442
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,320
over again. 
But I tried to regain my grid 

443
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,040
position and I was coming 
through the field and and Frank 

444
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,120
was just, you know, warming up 
his tyres and didn't see me. 

445
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,160
And just we just we just hit. 
Simple as that really. 

446
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,520
Yeah, that was a missed 
opportunity. 

447
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,480
Did how long did he did it take 
for him to come and have a chat 

448
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,280
with you? 
Was he? 

449
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,680
Not very, not very long, no. 
I. 

450
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,680
Yeah, but he's he's he's a 
Pussycat compared to. 

451
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,520
I had a bit of a run in with 
Johnny Giacotto in Italy. 

452
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,600
We had, we always seemed to 
qualify alongside each other. 

453
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,160
It was always one of those. 
And we had a proper run in. 

454
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,680
I mean he he clumped me 
actually, and he's pretty 

455
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,040
strong. 
He's got arms like he's got arms

456
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,320
like Popeye, you know? 
But I think it's from bike racer

457
00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:59,400
bike, right? 
Exactly. 

458
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,600
Absolutely. 
Right, Yeah, it was poker Will 

459
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,240
champion, wasn't it? 
Yeah, yeah, I did get a letter 

460
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,920
of apology from BMW. 
Actually, I get on the right 

461
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,720
with Johnny now, so we don't 
fight anymore. 

462
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,480
So it's all right. 
Roberto Ravalia seemed like 

463
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,040
another tricky character as 
well. 

464
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,360
Brilliant, Yeah. 
Brilliant driver. 

465
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,480
He was very good mentally. 
He could. 

466
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,200
He knew how to wind people up 
and as well. 

467
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,400
He upset everyone at 1996 
didn't. 

468
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,440
He well, we spoke about the one 
that's Nettison, didn't we? 

469
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,600
Where he just his job was just 
to to just be the wingman really

470
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,760
for for Joe, for smoking Joe. 
So and he he thought he'd go out

471
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,000
of all whatever the consequences
were. 

472
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,360
He was BMW through and through, 
and he'd do whatever he needed 

473
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,040
to do. 
Yeah, he, he, he, he was 

474
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,760
absolutely like that. 
He was a great guy actually, I 

475
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,280
remember, but we were on the 
podium in at Peguza, which I 

476
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,080
think is a fantastic circuit 
actually. 

477
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:50,640
I don't know if you've 
impressed. 

478
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,200
Around the dried up lake. 
Yeah, I love it. 

479
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,240
And I was on the podium and 
Roberto, I think Giovanni won 

480
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,920
it. 
I think maybe Roberto was second

481
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:01,240
and I was third, something like 
that. 

482
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,240
I just remember sitting on the 
podium with him and he got his 

483
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,640
fags out, started having a 
cigarette on the podium. 

484
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,160
I thought, we're definitely in 
Italy. 

485
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,720
He was actually, yeah, he said. 
Do you want a cigarette? 

486
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,360
Gary went. 
Well, yeah, we're on the podium.

487
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,080
No, that's fine. 
Don't worry about it. 

488
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,600
You're in Italy, you could do 
what you want. 

489
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,440
Do what you like, Yeah. 
Do what you like. 

490
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,760
So we obviously in 92 then that 
was when we obviously moved to 

491
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,600
the Italian series with Peugeot.
So now that now come about, but 

492
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000
what was it like in terms of 
racing in Italy compared to the 

493
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,160
BTCC? 
You just give us a bit of a 

494
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,520
taste of there in terms of you 
probably wasn't allowed to light

495
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,280
up a cigarette on the podium of 
a BTC. 

496
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,040
C certainly was. 
But what was the what was the 

497
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,720
differences just generally in 
the racing, the paddock, you 

498
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,720
know, how was that for you? 
You know the differences. 

499
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,800
I was the only Englishman in 
there, you know, as an 

500
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,560
Englishman driving a French car 
and in the Italian championship.

501
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,200
So it had his challenges but but
I I enjoyed it. 

502
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,760
I really enjoyed it actually 
when I was out there and but I 

503
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,960
was racing against you know, 
Lorini, Nanini, Tarquini, 

504
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,160
Moderna, Giovannardi, You know 
there was a lot of good people 

505
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,640
in in that championship. 
There really was and you know, 

506
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,920
good teams as well BMW, Audi and
obviously Peugeot but. 

507
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,960
Alpha in it at the time then. 
And Alpha. 

508
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,560
Yeah, yeah. 
And Alpha. 

509
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:18,600
Yeah. 
Tomorrow. 

510
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,120
Vidali. 
I remember she put it on pole at

511
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,280
Imola and we were in a press 
conference thing and all the 

512
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,400
Italian men were like, proper 
pissed about this, you know, 

513
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,960
because there's a woman on pole,
she's pretty quick, to be fair. 

514
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,360
And she put it on pole. 
And I just remember I could hear

515
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:33,520
some whispering and going, yeah,
I won't make the first caller. 

516
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,840
Yeah, very Italian, but I don't 
think she did, actually. 

517
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,320
But. 
But there you go. 

518
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,160
Yeah, But no, it was tough, 
tough racing. 

519
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,080
They didn't really care. 
Going off piste a little bit, 

520
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,240
Gary, I'm just keen to know 
because we've had Messrs Linford

521
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,240
and Watts on this podcast in the
past and they've talked about 

522
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,080
the lack of communication. 
Tim Harvey said it to between 

523
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,040
Peugeot UK and Peugeot over in, 
you know, France. 

524
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:00,960
What was it like from your point
of view? 

525
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,400
Why were things so difficult for
Peugeot UK? 

526
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,440
I I I really don't know. 
I mean the the car, our car was 

527
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,160
developed on different tyres, 
obviously. 

528
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,880
So what do you know what I don't
know? 

529
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,200
But I presume Italy and and 
France still never had that 

530
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,800
relationship. 
But obviously we know, we 

531
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,600
clearly now know that Britain 
and and France didn't have that 

532
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,880
relationship. 
But although you were obviously 

533
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,040
doing very well out in Italy, 
you know winning the same as 

534
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,040
what put obviously the French 
teams were. 

535
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,800
I presume you didn't have any 
bond with them. 

536
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,000
In any sharing, no. 
I don't know whether they they 

537
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,720
shared engine, engine data, if 
you like or whatever, because we

538
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,480
had a pretty good engine. 
To be fair, the Peugeot had a 

539
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,600
pretty good engine. 
It did, and I don't know whether

540
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,640
that was their problem in the 
UK, that they didn't have the 

541
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,280
horsepower. 
Yeah, that that they wouldn't, 

542
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,560
they wouldn't get, couldn't get 
the same engines and then when 

543
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,840
they when Mick was saying when 
it went into the dyno, they they

544
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,280
wouldn't even test it into the 
same conditions. 

545
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Yeah. 
And stuff. 

546
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,160
We were independent on engines, 
but I don't know whether there 

547
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,560
was shared data, but it we were 
independent we had a different 

548
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,160
engine builder and our engines 
were pretty good actually 

549
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,600
because I came over to test the 
car, you know in the UK and it 

550
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,440
was, it wasn't far away, bearing
in mind that our car was have 

551
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,040
been developed on Michelins and 
we had to use I think Yokohama 

552
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,000
then. 
So we struggled, you know, with 

553
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,040
the tyre, but everything else 
got the chassis and the engine 

554
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,560
was good. 
Well that that 92 car, you came 

555
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,920
over and did a single race. 
Peugeot Italia came over to do a

556
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,880
single race at Donnington in 92 
in the BTCC and you promptly 

557
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,520
trounced the works Peugeots that
weekend. 

558
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,160
We did, yeah. 
We, like I said, make a really 

559
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,560
be pissed if I said when I say 
this, but yeah, we scored more 

560
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,520
points in that one race than 
they did all year. 

561
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,280
So, so, So yeah, bless him, but 
I have seen him since a couple 

562
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,080
of times. 
Yeah, yeah, we did all right. 

563
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,480
Like I say, but our car was 
developed on Michelin's and not 

564
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,680
on Yoko's. 
So with time for sure we could 

565
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,120
have been winning races I think 
with that car in the UK. 

566
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,880
What about Giovinardi? 
Because he's a guy who obviously

567
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,120
in the UK, he came over in 2006,
just after Ivan Muller had gone.

568
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:15,720
Muller went out, Giovinardi came
in and he learned and learned 

569
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,800
and learned the first year and 
then with the Vector in the 

570
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,640
second and third years, he won 
the championship title twice. 

571
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,920
Yeah. 
There, there's some spectacular 

572
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:23,960
moments. 
They weren't there with his car 

573
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,560
control. 
I remember, I think Adam was it 

574
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Turkington and Giovinardi on the
grass, coming into the bomb hole

575
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,320
at Snetterson on the inside. 
And what was he like as a man 

576
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,880
and what made him so special? 
Gary as as a driver. 

577
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,000
I mean that even just the name 
for Briccio, Giovannardi is 

578
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,920
fast. 
It just sounds fast, doesn't it?

579
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,760
It does. 
I mean I I I helped him come 

580
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,360
over to the UK actually with 
with with Roland Dane was it 

581
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,680
Roland Dane then I can't 
remember no Ian Harris I because

582
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,880
I said I remember saying to Ian 
I said you really do need to 

583
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,480
look at this bloke because he's 
pretty damn quick. 

584
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,360
So I did help for Abitio come 
over as a person amazingly 

585
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,160
confident. 
Yeah yeah he was he was 

586
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,880
amazingly confident. 
He knew what he wanted from the 

587
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,480
car. 
But he just, he just oozed 

588
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,800
confidence and he oozed 
confidence with the, you know, 

589
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,280
with the engineers and the 
mechanics and they and they 

590
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,120
loved him And he just went out 
and you know, and did it, you 

591
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,600
know, he was a very confident 
man. 

592
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,640
He had his own personal issues. 
You know, he had his own 

593
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,600
problems. 
If you like, you know, behind 

594
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,800
the scenes, if you like. 
And that's quite often the way 

595
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,840
but amazingly confident guy 
must. 

596
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,000
Have been quite hard coming into
an Italian championship with an 

597
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Italian team mate, you know 
that. 

598
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,160
That adds complications, I 
guess. 

599
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,560
All all on its own. 
Yeah, I but I relish that, to be

600
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:46,960
honest. 
Because you know, like I said, 

601
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,080
an Englishman in an Italian 
championship driving a French 

602
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,640
car. 
You know you're going to, you're

603
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,680
going to get a kick in, aren't 
you? 

604
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,480
It's a joke. 
But yeah, but yeah, there is, 

605
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,440
Yeah, but but I but I enjoyed 
that. 

606
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,000
There are a Welshman involved in
this joke here. 

607
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,040
Yeah, yeah, only in the 
evenings, but. 

608
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,720
But I enjoyed that challenge. 
I really did it, you know, 

609
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,600
because But also the language 
thing. 

610
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,920
I didn't speak Italian. 
I could understand it towards 

611
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
the end and you know, could do 
a, you know, got a little bit of

612
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,080
it if you like. 
But I think that was quite good 

613
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,320
in a way because I didn't know 
what they were doing but what 

614
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,600
they were saying, you know, and 
I had a good engineer and and he

615
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,920
looked after me as well and I 
just drove. 

616
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,320
I just drove as best I could. 
That was it. 

617
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,880
You know, I complained once that
Fabrizio's engine was better and

618
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,840
they they literally just said, 
look, you're #2, so that's 

619
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,920
that's what that is, and then 
you accept your place. 

620
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,080
And it wasn't, it didn't matter 
what I what I said or how loud I

621
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,360
shouted, I wasn't going to get 
that. 

622
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,440
So I just concentrated on doing 
what I could do. 

623
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,240
Well, and what you did that 
season was lots of podiums. 

624
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,680
Victory at Verano and you 
finished second in the 

625
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,480
championship. 
It's not a bad first season in 

626
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,840
Italy. 
Yeah, no, no, it was great. 

627
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,280
It got harder after that, but 
but yeah, it was it was 

628
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,320
brilliant. 
I really had good fun and and 

629
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,760
made some good friends out 
there. 

630
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,960
Apart from Johnny Giacotto and 
in in Manueli Pirro we had a bit

631
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,480
of as well. 
Because that second year they 

632
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:14,800
merged the two classes, didn't 
they? 

633
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,960
And it just became a single 
class series for Class 2 cars. 

634
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,920
You scored another victory at 
Misano, finished fourth in the 

635
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,680
points. 
Yeah, you must have. 

636
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,640
You must have really enjoyed 
your time out there because it 

637
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,840
was going well. 
It was I I really did enjoy it 

638
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,200
and it was, and I was starting 
to get other opportunities, you 

639
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,640
know, to stay out there with 
different teams and things. 

640
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,360
But anyway, you know what? 
For whatever reason, it didn't 

641
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,800
happen in the end, but I had 
good fun out there. 

642
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,640
For this series of stories from 
Super Touring, we are delighted 

643
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,680
to be teaming up with Brands 
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 

644
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,240
Super Touring Power 2, which is 
being held at the famous circuit

645
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,720
on the 29th and 30th of June 
2024. 

646
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,240
The award nominated event was a 
smash hit last year when it's 

647
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,200
debut edition transported fans 
back to the 90s and this year's 

648
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,960
event will once again celebrate 
one of touring car racing's most

649
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,640
fondly remembered eras. 
To enter the competition, just 

650
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,480
answer the following question. 
Who was the first ever guest to 

651
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,800
star on Stories from Super 
Touring? 

652
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,040
Send your answers to Pod at 
1990s btcc.com and we'll 

653
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,640
announce the winner on a later 
episode this series. 

654
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,040
Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. 

655
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,400
Between in 94 Gary then. 
So that was your final year, 

656
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,080
wasn't it? 
But which is obviously more of a

657
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,440
struggle, I believe yourself and
Fabrizio didn't actually win a 

658
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,960
race that season. 
Is that more bound to other 

659
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,160
teams doing a better job of 
designing their cars and you 

660
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,880
were a little bit behind or what
do you think that? 

661
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880
We were behind because the 
programme was being pulled, so 

662
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,040
ito technical we're losing the 
contract less. 

663
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,440
Money was being plowed. 
Yeah, less money was being 

664
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,720
spent. 
I I should imagine. 

665
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,200
Giovanni. 
I think that already was already

666
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,920
moving. 
You know he had already had an 

667
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,280
an option if you like. 
So, so yeah, that was a struggle

668
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,040
that you shame, actually. 
You see, I think it's more so 

669
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,280
knowing that where there's 
probably fans probably wouldn't 

670
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,400
the other side of the fence. 
But As for you know what's going

671
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,080
on behind the scenes, just 
think, well, we've just got to 

672
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,800
see this out now. 
Yeah, that's right. 

673
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,080
I mean, you know, they weren't 
spending the money, we weren't 

674
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,600
testing and things like that. 
You know, nothing was really 

675
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,120
happening and I think Forbicio 
lost a bit of, you know, he got 

676
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,920
a bit down about it as well. 
So you know when when he's down,

677
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,800
he's he doesn't really play. 
Yeah, so. 

678
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,880
So what happened with Johnny 
Ciccotta then? 

679
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:45,840
I'm intrigued about. 
It I beat him and I I it was it 

680
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,000
was a last lap Ron hopeful and I
got by him on the last lap and 

681
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,040
you know and he was really 
pissed about it and then you 

682
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,200
know when a flag goes and 
everybody slows down. 

683
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Well we weren't we were still 
racing and I remember we we we 

684
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,560
got back into Park Fermay and 
it's just me and him in park for

685
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,000
May 1st and we were and he got 
out of the car and I got out of 

686
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,680
the car and we were just like 
these two you know, chicken 

687
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,440
fight, a cockerel fight, you 
know it was just like that. 

688
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,880
You know what I mean? 
It all got just got a bit out of

689
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,280
hand. 
And also what what happened I 

690
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,680
think was in free practice my 
mechanic waved me out and I 

691
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,400
wasn't looking. 
So just looking at the mechanic,

692
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,520
he waved me out and Johnny came 
past and I just twatted. 

693
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,120
And yeah, that didn't go down 
too well either. 

694
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,120
Yeah, that that might have 
something to do with the 

695
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,480
gallery, Yeah, yeah. 
He was a bit pissed about that. 

696
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:33,800
They're they're quite emotional,
I. 

697
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Was gonna tell you that puts 
things in perspective because we

698
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,400
thought Rydell and Reed at 
Brands Hatch was a bit of a 

699
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,440
confrontation or or menu and 
Ravalli, but that's nothing is 

700
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,560
it in comparison with Ailes and.
Exactly. 

701
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:45,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely 
not. 

702
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,800
So 9095 then, I mean you've gone
to the Global BPR Global GT 

703
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,040
Series so you've gone from a 
Karina and a four O 5 in Britain

704
00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,720
Gary to A to a Ferrari F40. 
Any any differences there at? 

705
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:01,320
All, yeah. 
What's the? 

706
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Yeah, yeah, an awful lot that 
that all came about because 

707
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,400
Claudia Barrow, that was our 
boss at Peugeot, he, he put 

708
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,719
Giovinardi into Alfa Romeo and 
he put me into Ferrari or gave 

709
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,440
me an opportunity at Ferrari. 
So Claudio was a good guy and he

710
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,800
was Todd's right hand man at 
Ferrari for for a while. 

711
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,639
Yeah, that was an eye opener. 
I remember I got asked to 

712
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,920
Ferrano, you know, to go and 
test at the Ferrari thing and it

713
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,000
was quite amazing, really, 
because you know, that garage, 

714
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,679
that iconic garage that they 
have at the test circuit there. 

715
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,840
And I remember, you know, 
sitting in there and A and a 

716
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,960
Ferrari thinking, Christ, it's 
all right, yeah, yeah, that was 

717
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,480
a beast. 
That car was a beast. 

718
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,760
But brilliant. 
I enjoyed it. 

719
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,159
We had a couple of polls with 
it, actually. 

720
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:52,239
It's pretty unreliable. 
But I was with Massimo Massini 

721
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:58,080
and Fabio Mancini were in the 
car with me and then Anders 

722
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,160
Olsen and I can't remember his 
other guy's name. 

723
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,400
But anyway was there. 
That's one of them cars that, 

724
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,520
you know, you probably barely 
blink for the whole time that 

725
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,880
you're you're driving it because
he just keeps you alive, doesn't

726
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,440
it? 
Yeah. 

727
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,080
Oh yeah. 
It's amazing that's at Le Mans. 

728
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,160
I think, you know, we we just 
got the brief really just 

729
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,880
finish. 
I don't care where you finish, 

730
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,760
just just finish the race 
because Ferrari was quite 

731
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,480
unreliable, yeah, and that's. 
A result in itself, isn't it? 

732
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,680
With any 24 hour 5, just finish 
and you and a result will come 

733
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,720
of it because it's such a such a
long race to do, whether it be 

734
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:29,760
Spa or Le Mans. 
But obviously talking to Le 

735
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,080
Mans, when you did that, that 
was in 95 S obviously from a 

736
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,360
driver's perspective. 
Box ticks, wasn't it, on the 

737
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,400
CVI? 
Think I started the race and I 

738
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,200
finished it, so I took the flag.
Quite amazing, even though we 

739
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,480
finished like 18th because we 
had a gearbox problem. 

740
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,400
But to take the flag, you know, 
at Le Mans, OK, we didn't win 

741
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,120
it, but. 
But, and to finish it, like you 

742
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,080
said, you've been a cart. 
That's been unreliable up until 

743
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,360
that point, so you don't give 
yourself much hope of getting 

744
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,240
You know you're happy to get to 
the 12th hour mark, aren't you? 

745
00:35:58,240 --> 00:35:59,520
Anyway, you're going to do it 
all again. 

746
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,800
Yeah, that's right, it was, it 
was amazing, bloody hard work in

747
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,640
that car because no cool suit, 
no power steering, no sequential

748
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,480
gearbox, no nothing. 
Do you know what I mean? 

749
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,440
It was, you know, there's quite 
a few gear changes on the lap 

750
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,360
around there and in in the wet 
the car was a handful. 

751
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,960
I can imagine, yes. 
Yeah, yeah. 

752
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,280
I remember spinning, going, 
doing about 200 miles an hour 

753
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,280
and then just hitting, hitting 
the wet when I was on slicks and

754
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,440
just spinning like that. 
And I'm just thinking you're 

755
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,600
nice knowing. 
Yeah, you know. 

756
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,240
Yeah, yeah. 
This is it. 

757
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,800
This is going wrong. 
This is but but yeah, we 

758
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,920
finished. 
It was good. 

759
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,400
Was there much of an overlap 
with the F1 programme? 

760
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,640
Did you manage to get any 
anecdotes or stories? 

761
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,560
That was the burger in the lazy 
days, wasn't it? 

762
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,200
Or. 
Or even be it fear, aren't they,

763
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,120
when they were there testing at 
the same time because you? 

764
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,360
I did see them testing and they 
gave at the end of the year. 

765
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,040
They gave me a carbon fibre 
disk, which was the first carbon

766
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,040
fibre F1 disk that they made. 
They, they gave that to me on. 

767
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,120
They put it on wood, you know? 
So I'm very proud of that 

768
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,760
actually. 
Yeah, it's pretty cool. 

769
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Wow. 
So you're. 

770
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,240
Actually there in the heart of 
it, when they were testing those

771
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,040
V12 Ferrari. 
F oh, yes, I I was there. 

772
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,040
What a. 
Sound. 

773
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,160
Yeah, I remember being in a bar 
there and Braun, I think it was 

774
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,440
Ross Braun, was on gardening 
leave, so he hadn't actually 

775
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,240
started with Ferrari at that 
point. 

776
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:20,880
I'm just remember seeing and I 
just went to a bar and he was 

777
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,200
sitting in a bar having a having
a beer and you know, So what are

778
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,040
you doing here? 
He said. 

779
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,280
Well, Ferrari restaurant, yeah, 
OK, You know, we know the rest 

780
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,880
of it, if you like. 
Yeah, but yeah, it's quite 

781
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,520
amazing. 
It was quite amazing. 

782
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,120
Definitely pull the birds. 
If you drive for Ferrari, that's

783
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,840
for sure. 
Well, yeah, I think I didn't 

784
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,880
mantle one side like you don't 
like, you just turn into like 

785
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,040
you're like you're just one of 
them. 

786
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,720
You're a king like you don't pay
for anything. 

787
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,680
Everything's just thrown at you 
like you just, yeah, you're part

788
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,240
of the family. 
Yeah, I mean, obviously more so 

789
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:50,080
when you're in Formula One as to
what I was. 

790
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,960
But nevertheless, you know, 
drive a Ferrari in Italy, then 

791
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,320
it's pretty cool. 
It's pretty cool. 

792
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,640
And did you want to do more GT 
racing after that? 

793
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:58,560
I bet you probably did. 
Didn't. 

794
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,000
You. 
I did, yes, I did. 

795
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,560
And I looked for for 
opportunities and stuff and 

796
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,000
nothing came after the Ferrari 
thing. 

797
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,560
And then so then I drove the 
Nissan again for Andy after that

798
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,840
and that was all in preparation 
for him to become the works 

799
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,400
team. 
But unfortunately that never 

800
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,960
happened. 
It went to Ray, Malik, I think, 

801
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,480
not Andy. 
So that was a bit of a bum year 

802
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,600
for us. 
Yeah. 

803
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,520
Then I got the opportunity for 
with McLaren, you know, so to 

804
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,760
drive the long tail that was 
that was fun as well. 

805
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,280
Yes. 
So looking at that 96 season 

806
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,160
back to the BTCC reunited again 
with Andy Rouse as you were 

807
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,560
saying, he was hoping to get 
that Nissan, he'd lost the Ford 

808
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,000
contract. 
That's right. 

809
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,440
There was talk of him running 
independent Fords with the 4 

810
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,920
cylinder engines rather than the
V6 that that he had to run under

811
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,800
the under the deal with Ford, 
but then he ended up with these 

812
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,800
Nissans. 
I mean how did all that come 

813
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,240
about? 
It seemed quite late in the day 

814
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:00,840
that that program all came 
together. 

815
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,040
Yeah, it it was late in the day.
I mean, I didn't really get 

816
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,960
involved in it in the beginning.
If you like that just the 

817
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,920
opportunity came, you know, once
he'd done a deal or or you know 

818
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,560
what, what he was looking for 
was to become the works team for

819
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,120
Nissan. 
So I guess that's why he 

820
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,080
committed to that, you know, to 
do a lot of development work and

821
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,880
then, you know, move. 
Whether I would have got the 

822
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,240
drive or not, I don't know. 
But you know, they're moving to 

823
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:23,600
be the official team and for 
whatever reason it didn't 

824
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,040
happen. 
It didn't happen. 

825
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,640
So, which was a shame, because 
you should have had that, 

826
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,280
really. 
Had you been keeping an eye on 

827
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,640
the BTCC most during that time 
away, Gary, before you came 

828
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,240
back? 
Because we obviously here have a

829
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,920
a very soft spot for it and 
there were some classic races in

830
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,840
that period, weren't there? 
Yeah, there were. 

831
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,640
I did, I did, I did a bit. 
Not a lot to be honest. 

832
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,600
Was focused on what I was doing 
if you like, and but yeah, 

833
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,000
obviously I did. 
It got more and more popular. 

834
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,440
That's for sure, yes. 
Yeah, we were going to How had 

835
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,520
it progressed? 
Because you've got wings and you

836
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,720
know all sorts splitters on the 
cars by then, aren't you? 

837
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,000
From 1996 was a massive change. 
Massive changes, yeah. 

838
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,680
I mean, you know, the 
manufacturers got heavily 

839
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,640
involved in it. 
It became a big business, didn't

840
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,360
it, For them, you know, with AR 
and the the wings, the splitter 

841
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,520
in the boot and all the rest of 
it. 

842
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,000
They were, they were, they were 
throwing everything at it. 

843
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,600
Which did you prefer? 
The the, the cars prior to the 

844
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,880
era or or after with the? 
With the. 

845
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,240
I never really drove, you know, 
like the, the, the, you know, 

846
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:22,880
the pucker, touring car if you 
like. 

847
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,480
So I've got nothing to to really
relate that to so that that'll 

848
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,920
be difficult to answer that. 
I often dream about that now. 

849
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,560
I think, oh, nobody like to 
drive one now. 

850
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,880
They look easy in my day, you 
know, it was all, you know, 

851
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,480
blood slot and piss coming out 
of just every orifice. 

852
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,320
Try and keep it on the in a 
straight line. 

853
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,920
But you know, they seem to be 
like crews in there, you know, 

854
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,600
and it seems to be a bit easier.
So I must have a word with 

855
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,440
Dickie. 
See if he can give me the car. 

856
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,720
It's it's a shame those 96 
Nissan's didn't really perform 

857
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:54,240
because they did look great, 
didn't they for. 

858
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:56,800
What it were Yeah, they did. 
They looked lovely. 

859
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,520
That was when you used the 94 
Primera. 

860
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,760
It was, yes. 
I think no. 

861
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:04,320
Which was? 
Which was? 

862
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,040
Driven by Sasha Masson. 
Yeah. 

863
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,760
I don't know. 
I don't know what year that was.

864
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,680
It probably was, yeah. 
Yes, the the Nissans at the the 

865
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,400
the those Nissans at the start 
of the year were 95 ones that 

866
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:22,360
were run in the STW and your car
was Sasha Masson's car which was

867
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,760
built in 94. 
Oh, there you go. 

868
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,360
I've got the old one. 
Yeah. 

869
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,480
That was with Jamie. 
Spence was driving with me then.

870
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,040
Yeah. 
Yeah, I'm friends with Jamie. 

871
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,560
Jamie. 
Jamie was a cracking driver. 

872
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,360
He's the somebody that should 
have made it, you know, because 

873
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,640
he could, he could pretty much 
drive anything, that boy, he was

874
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,160
quick in formula three, quick in
formula four, quick in in 

875
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,920
anything. 
You know, he he should have 

876
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,280
definitely made it. 
Yeah, the other the other team 

877
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,920
mate you had that year was Owen 
McCauley. 

878
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,880
He did a couple of races as 
well. 

879
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,320
He did. 
He did. 

880
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:01,160
But it was was it a real 
struggle because those cars were

881
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,760
were not the newest cars and and
it it, it seemed like you had a 

882
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,560
pretty tricky year that year. 
Oh yeah, it's bloody hard work, 

883
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,490
you know, up to, you know, to 
the up to 

884
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,400
But in the race the car was good
and I made a lot of progress in 

885
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
the race till I came across 
Patrick Ah. 

886
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,120
Yes, I remember that. 
Yeah, then. 

887
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,640
So I signed them all. 
Yeah, I got past him and he 

888
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,600
didn't like it and he smacked me
up the arse and it bent the 

889
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,840
exhaust. 
So then it all it caught fire, 

890
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,800
basically the car. 
Yes, of course, yes, because 

891
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,760
there was that, that was the 
race where you pulled over and 

892
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,880
the the car was full of smoke. 
And that's right. 

893
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,640
Yeah, that's that wasn't very 
nice, but I think I T boned him 

894
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,120
mad. 
No, I think I T Yeah. 

895
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,760
Didn't you? 
Make contact coming out of 

896
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,240
Clark. 
Yeah, through through the left, 

897
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,440
onto the railway straight. 
I remember Murray Walker going, 

898
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,600
oh, he's really lost it, but 
obviously he hit him. 

899
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:00,960
Yeah, yeah. 
Gave him a little bit of a help 

900
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,960
in hand. 
Patrick was involved in quite a 

901
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,040
few scrapes though, wasn't he? 
Yeah, well, as he said himself 

902
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,640
on this show before. 
He does, yeah. 

903
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,680
He freely admits that to be 
yeah. 

904
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,480
But no good times and I learned 
a lot, really. 

905
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,560
Like I say, I wasn't born into 
motorsport, so it's been a 

906
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,440
pretty good life and I've I've 
made something of it, you know, 

907
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,920
even after racing cars, if you 
like. 

908
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,720
And I think you know when it 
when your time's up. 

909
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,920
And while I was doing Le Mans, I
can't remember who I was doing 

910
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,000
it for. 
And that that's when I quit. 

911
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,440
Really. 
I thought, do you know what? 

912
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,960
You know, I'm not getting off of
the drives and the opportunities

913
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,120
are getting less. 
And you know, I didn't really 

914
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,880
want to, I didn't want to drive 
a car. 

915
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,480
I was going to hurt myself. 
And that that tends to happen 

916
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,160
because you get into maybe not 
such good cars, not competitive 

917
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,920
cars, the. 
Sales aren't as good, are they? 

918
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,480
No. 
And I and I I didn't want to do 

919
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:56,720
that. 
So I gave up at Le Mans. 

920
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,000
Really. 
That was the last year I did Le 

921
00:43:59,000 --> 00:43:59,920
Mans. 
I might have done a couple of 

922
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,400
races afterwards, but that's 
pretty much it. 

923
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:05,120
You did mention McLaren though. 
That was 97. 

924
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,880
Wasn't it the first ever FIAGT 
championship? 

925
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,960
That was AV12 engine. 
Wasn't it parabolic, a 

926
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,280
motorsport? 
What was that like? 

927
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,600
That must have been. 
Beautiful, you know, Gordon 

928
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,360
Murray design and built, 
fantastic engine, you know, it's

929
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,360
so refined compared to the 
Ferrari. 

930
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,120
It's a better chalk and cheese 
compared to Ferrari. 

931
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,280
Quite fortunately if you like 
I've driven 2 eras of cars but 

932
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,960
you know like I say the Ferrari 
was all sort of blood slot and 

933
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,800
Pierce and now hang on we do a 
life and but the McLaren was so 

934
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,520
refined you know with the gear 
leave at the sequential box was 

935
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,360
beautiful you know it was it was
lovely car to drive. 

936
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,080
Well, we won the race in car 
then, wasn't it? 

937
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,920
Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah, it was
proper. 

938
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,040
We were, we were, you know, 
we're a privateer team, but we 

939
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,800
we did all right, really up 
against the works teams, You 

940
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,080
know, they had different tires, 
so we were always going to be 

941
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,800
half a second back. 
Anyway, whatever you did, you 

942
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,600
didn't make any difference, you 
know, because they they had a 

943
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,400
different tire to us factory 
cars. 

944
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,320
But it was. 
But there's plenty of good, 

945
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,000
light, talented drivers within 
that field of that championship 

946
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,920
at that time, so you did pull 
off some good results. 

947
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,240
Yeah, you know, JJ was in there,
wasn't he? 

948
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,320
You know, Merck drivers were 
doing it. 

949
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:15,600
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

950
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,160
I mean, McNeese was in a 
Porsche, I think, at some .0. 

951
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,480
It's pretty good, people. 
Big time for GT racing, wasn't 

952
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,840
it that huge? 
Late, like late 90s. 

953
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,880
It was a big period of GT 
racing, yeah. 

954
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,000
Yeah, some proper cars. 
I. 

955
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,480
Can't remember. 
I can't remember what year we 

956
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,800
were pre qualifying and we 
weren't. 

957
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,680
I think it must have been 97 
with the McLaren. 

958
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,080
We're right on the bubble all 
the time. 

959
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,360
It was bloody hard work to get a
car into the race, you know, let

960
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,320
alone finish the race. 
And I was pre qualifying and the

961
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,320
lad in front of me went over the
barrack. 

962
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,240
Anyway, he got killed. 
And you sort of know, You sort 

963
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,560
of know And you come back into 
the pits and you sit in there 

964
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,480
and then you have to go. 
And then you have to go again 

965
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,440
and you go, yeah, well, I'll go.
I'll go and do it now then. 

966
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,400
Do you know what I mean? 
It's it's no news, isn't it? 

967
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,440
It's when you don't hear the 
news, you know it's bad. 

968
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,640
Yeah, it's pretty bad and but 
you know, you got to go and do 

969
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,520
it and it's, it's quite weird 
really Cos when you're just 

970
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,960
sitting in there and I'm not, 
you know, hundreds of drivers 

971
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,000
have have had the same 
experience as me. 

972
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,520
But you, you're sitting in there
in in a garage or whatever, 

973
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,800
waiting to go out and it and it 
and it's, it's not great. 

974
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,920
But then the moment you turn 
right and then you're going down

975
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:28,920
the pit lane and you get to the 
end of the pit lane, it's all 

976
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,240
gone. 
You forget about. 

977
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,080
It now I now I need now I need 
to do this. 

978
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:38,200
When you did call it a day on 
the driving side after a few 

979
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,280
years away, you returned to 
touring cars back in 2000 and 

980
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,960
this time it was on the other 
side of the pit wall. 

981
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,920
What sort of drew you to that 
sort of decision to go into team

982
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,160
management and setting up Gary 
Ailes Motorsport? 

983
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,200
Well, I I loved it and I wasn't 
quite sure what I was going to 

984
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,120
do after after driving a car, so
I didn't, you know, I couldn't 

985
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,400
do anything else. 
I wasn't qualified to do 

986
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,160
anything else anyway, apart from
being a mechanic. 

987
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,160
It's like a footballer going 
into management, isn't it? 

988
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,920
Yeah, I feel like it's the next 
thing to do. 

989
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,880
And I I I really enjoyed it 
because I brought the alphas 

990
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,240
over. 
So I wanted to bring something a

991
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,560
little bit different. 
And they from the, from the I 

992
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,360
became friends with the Begatsi 
family. 

993
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,960
So I got them from from Begatsi,
who I'm still friends with now. 

994
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,200
They were, they were good 
chassis and a good engine, but 

995
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,440
very they were quite fragile. 
And I had Gavin, yeah, Gavin 

996
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,160
Piper and Tom Ferrier. 
Gavin was was quick. 

997
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,840
He was quick. 
But the car, you know let him 

998
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,680
down and reliability. 
The boys should have won the 

999
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,640
championship really, But I 
really, I really enjoyed seeing 

1000
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,000
him and Tom do well. 
I really got a buzz out of that.

1001
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,000
You know, one seeing the young 
drivers do well, if you like. 

1002
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,640
And Gavin didn't really have any
money, so we we sort of 

1003
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,480
sponsored him, you know, when he
went into, when he drove the 

1004
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,040
Vauxhall, you know, I remember 
my accountant saying to me, he 

1005
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,480
said, are you in love with Gavin
Piper? 

1006
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,960
Not really. 
He said, well, you need to stop 

1007
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,960
spending money, you know, 
because you're not going to have

1008
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,760
a business left. 
But it. 

1009
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,720
But it was brilliant and we. 
Run out of money? 

1010
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,440
Yeah, we did run out of money, 
which was a shame, but he would 

1011
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,400
have won the the Privateer 
Championship easy. 

1012
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,000
I enjoyed that. 
I gave myself like five years 

1013
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,760
for that and I wanted to be an 
official team. 

1014
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,080
If I couldn't be an official 
team then, then I didn't want to

1015
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,880
do it anymore because I've. 
I've got nothing against paying 

1016
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,280
drivers at all. 
But you know, if you want to win

1017
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,080
championships and races then you
you need a professional, You do.

1018
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,760
And yeah, they got to be paid. 
You want to pay drivers because 

1019
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,160
you know what it means. 
To them, they've worked their 

1020
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,280
whole life for it, but you know 
you need to. 

1021
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,880
Do you know? 
Because you know you can you can

1022
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,360
you can you can tell them you 
know you need to get your finger

1023
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:42,720
out. 
Yeah, yeah, you can be the boss.

1024
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:44,400
You. 
Turned into Andy Rouse. 

1025
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Yeah. 

1026
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,000
A little bit, yeah. 
You had them stripping. 

1027
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,400
Gearboxes. 
Yeah, that's right. 

1028
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,400
Well, I think I. 
Remember once saying to the 

1029
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,880
drivers said that I'm going to 
treat you like we're paying you?

1030
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,600
Because I know you're paying me,
you know, to drive the carnival,

1031
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,200
the rest of it. 
But I'm not going to blow smoke 

1032
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,440
up your ass. 
You know, I'm going to treat you

1033
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,920
as if you're a professional 
racing driver because that's 

1034
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,000
what you want to be and that's 
what you're going to get. 

1035
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,760
You know, if you're fortunate 
enough to get there and 

1036
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,680
somebody's paying you a wage, 
then they're going to, they're 

1037
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,640
going to, you know, you're going
to have to perform. 

1038
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,040
So, so yeah, it's some of some 
drivers didn't like it, but 

1039
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,920
that's because they've gone all 
their careers through karting. 

1040
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,520
And all the junior formers 
having the dad selling them the 

1041
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,680
best thing since lost bread. 
And that's unfortunately. 

1042
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,000
The. 
Era that we're in. 

1043
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,280
I mean, I remember we were at. 
Silverstone and one of the 

1044
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,760
drivers who remained nameless, 
you know, said, oh, this car's 

1045
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,400
shit, That's shit. 
This is shit. 

1046
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,360
Everything's shit. 
I went, we'll wait. 

1047
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,440
So I rung up Kelvin Burt, who 
was still asleep, obviously, 

1048
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,000
because he was always, he's 
always asleep. 

1049
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,560
I said, Kelvin, can you come to 
Silverstone and test the car? 

1050
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:47,560
He said yeah, that's all right 
guys. 

1051
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,800
Yeah, well, yeah. 
And he went like 4th quickest 

1052
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,240
in, you know, about 3 laps. 
He just got out of the car and 

1053
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:55,400
that was it. 
I just looked at the driver and 

1054
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:56,560
went what? 
What do you want me to say? 

1055
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,600
There we go. 
Yeah, there you go. 

1056
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,640
What did the? 
Anonymous driver say what can 

1057
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:03,440
what can you say? 
Yeah. 

1058
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:06,600
Yeah, Kelvin ended up gracing 
for you. 

1059
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,120
Didn't he, in the Astra at some?
Yeah, it did. 

1060
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:10,440
That's right. 
That's the car he tested and 

1061
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:11,680
drove. 
He finished fourth, didn't he? 

1062
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,080
At Silverstone, I think it was, 
yeah. 

1063
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,800
He hadn't tested on nothing last
night. 

1064
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,120
Yeah, just. 
He just turned. 

1065
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:17,040
Up. 
You know, he's pretty. 

1066
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,680
Useful when he's not asleep. 
He's so laid back, that boy, 

1067
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,720
it's unbelievable. 
But he's a very kind man, you 

1068
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:27,320
know? 
You know, if you're ever down, 

1069
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,880
you know he's a kind man. 
He's very sensitive here now, 

1070
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,480
when I'm not not in a great 
place or not feeling it or 

1071
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,320
whatever it is. 
And Kelvin will know. 

1072
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,720
Yeah, he's he's he's, he's a 
good boy. 

1073
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,120
Yeah, that's interesting because
I always got the feeling just. 

1074
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,200
From, you know, I wasn't 
watching it at the time, but 

1075
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,760
looking at the BTCC season 
reviews now, if it feels like he

1076
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,400
could be a bit Moody at times, 
but maybe that is the emotion 

1077
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,080
and the passion. 
Yeah, he he yeah, he. 

1078
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,680
Comes across that, but but he 
now he's, he's very kind. 

1079
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:58,760
Yeah, he's got a good heart, 
Kelvin. 

1080
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,440
Like you say, he doesn't come 
across as that, but he's pretty 

1081
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,920
sensitive to people, to be fair.
See. 

1082
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,520
Were you quite close with him, 
Gary, when he had? 

1083
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,080
His massive accident at Alton 
Park, I didn't really know him 

1084
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,320
that well. 
At that point, no. 

1085
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,080
That he had a big on at Alton 
Park, didn't he? 

1086
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,760
Yeah, yeah, that hurt that one. 
Very lucky there. 

1087
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:16,760
Yeah, he was. 
That was. 

1088
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:17,920
One of them shunts and we've 
spoke. 

1089
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,600
About it before Gary on the on 
the on this podcast where you 

1090
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,520
know when you see a shunt and 
you just think yeah I. 

1091
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:26,520
Think he yeah. 
That. 

1092
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,800
This could be bad news. 
This because it was such a 

1093
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,440
monumental shunt. 
He stopped quick, didn't he? 

1094
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,120
That was a problem. 
That's very slow. 

1095
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:34,760
When he stopped that quick, 
yeah. 

1096
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,000
But But yeah, yeah, no, no, I 
enjoyed it. 

1097
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,840
The Super Touring era in the UK,
we generally. 

1098
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,000
Luckily didn't have any big, big
accidents, did we? 

1099
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,600
No, no, no. 
Not, not the people that, you 

1100
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,680
know that that didn't go home, 
if you like. 

1101
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,560
Yeah, that. 
No, I mean, you had obviously 

1102
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,600
poor Keith O. 
Odor, wasn't it? 

1103
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,160
Yeah, Yeah. 
When he got sideswiped, didn't 

1104
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,320
he? 
He got hit in the side, I think 

1105
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,560
it was, yeah, his driver's side,
wasn't it? 

1106
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:00,560
Driver. 
'S side, yeah. 

1107
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,600
And that's where Kelvin. 
Was lucky in in? 

1108
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:04,560
He was, yeah. 
Yeah, he. 

1109
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:11,000
Was yeah, there no we. 
As you say Greg, generally the 

1110
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,160
the, the, the big accidents, 
they didn't really have any 

1111
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,320
major consequences, which one of
the biggest shunts I ever saw on

1112
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,800
TV. 
Was Matt Neal coming out of 

1113
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,280
cops? 
Going up in the Mazda? 

1114
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,840
Wasn't it completely barrel 
roll? 

1115
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,320
The barrel just seems to go on 
forever. 

1116
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,520
Like, in terms of like 
spectacular shunt. 

1117
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:28,720
That was quite that was a big 
one. 

1118
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:31,480
You had Charlie at Thruxton? 
That was, yeah. 

1119
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,760
That was big, wasn't it He? 
Ended up in Andover, didn't he? 

1120
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:39,120
Yeah, yeah. 
Andover, Andover, Andover, 

1121
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,320
Andover. 
Yeah, yeah, that's right. 

1122
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:49,720
Yeah. 
For this series of stories from 

1123
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:51,400
Super. 
Touring We are delighted to be 

1124
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,600
teaming up with Brands Hatch to 
give away 2 tickets to Super 

1125
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,920
Touring Power 2 which is being 
held at the famous circuit on 

1126
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,960
the 29th and 30th of June 2024. 
The award nominated event was a 

1127
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,720
smash hit last year when it's 
debut edition transported fans 

1128
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,800
back to the 90s and this year's 
event will once again celebrate 

1129
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,960
one of Touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. 

1130
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,520
To enter the competition, just 
answer the following question. 

1131
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,960
Who was the first ever guest to 
star on Stories from Super 

1132
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,440
Touring? 
Send your answers to Pod at 

1133
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,120
1990s btcc.com and we'll 
announce the winner on a later 

1134
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,120
episode this series. 
Meanwhile, let's get back to the

1135
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:39,920
episode. 
Getting. 

1136
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:44,240
Back onto onto you. 
Gary, so you you drove, you 

1137
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,320
managed you you ran teams What 
what are you doing now? 

1138
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:47,920
What? 
What? 

1139
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,240
What are you up to these days? 
Well, I own a logistics. 

1140
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:56,960
Company so bespoke handling so 
we work for the in the 

1141
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,400
automotive industry at 
motorsport and a lot of private 

1142
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,560
clients that we have now but but
that all stemmed from motor 

1143
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,440
racing. 
You know I remember I think I 

1144
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,680
was working hereth for for for 
Toyota and I just sort of got 

1145
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,680
and started to get involved in 
bespoke handling and logistics 

1146
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:14,280
and that. 
Yeah. 

1147
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,240
And it was just like this moment
of thinking how's all this shit 

1148
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:20,360
get here you know because as as 
a racing driver whatever you 

1149
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,520
just turn up getting a car drive
it and bugger off. 

1150
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,880
Yeah, you know, but there's an 
awful lot of work beforehand and

1151
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,640
and the the logistics side of 
that is big. 

1152
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:30,720
It's a separate team of people, 
isn't it? 

1153
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:32,440
When you're looking at it, it is
so. 

1154
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,920
Through my contacts at McLaren 
we managed to get the the gig 

1155
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,520
for the P1 GTR when we did that 
and it was all around the world.

1156
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,760
So that was the first contract 
if you like, that we had and 

1157
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,160
it's just grown from there. 
So it's it's quite a big company

1158
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:48,560
now. 
She's still. 

1159
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,760
It's still in motorsport then? 
Yes, I'm still in motorsport and

1160
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,400
I love it. 
Yeah, I think you will. 

1161
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,600
We never leave it, do we? 
So you know, when all the, I 

1162
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,560
remember the lads, they were 
working at Kota and we'd shipped

1163
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,320
all the shit out there, you 
know, cars and kit and 

1164
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,160
everything else. 
And I was driving one of the 

1165
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,040
forklifts and remember this, 
this young racing driver sort of

1166
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:09,840
just like taking a piss a little
bit. 

1167
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,360
I went actually a more money 
driving this forklift than you 

1168
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:19,240
do sitting in in that car where 
you're actually just ballast, 

1169
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,120
you know, they're so. 
Fast. 

1170
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,560
Nowadays, these Rd. cars, I mean
you would not want to be an 

1171
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,120
instructor nowadays. 
Well, I wouldn't, no. 

1172
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,040
I mean, they're doing like 190 
odd miles an hour down down the 

1173
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,040
street at at Monza. 
You know that's ridiculous in a 

1174
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,560
road car, hoping they're going 
to hit the right pedal at the 

1175
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,160
yeah. 
With some Joey sitting next 

1176
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,280
year, you. 
Know I read as well that. 

1177
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,240
You'd consider going back into 
team management at some point if

1178
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,360
that was, if that opportunity 
arose, Is that right? 

1179
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,480
Yeah. 
Do you know what I mean? 

1180
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,040
We're going through like maybe 
to sell the company so if that 

1181
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,920
all goes through you know I'd I 
need to waste some money so 

1182
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,120
probably set up another racing 
team but I would, I'd like to do

1183
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,520
it again. 
I think I learnt a lot in the in

1184
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,080
the years I did it and I 
wouldn't make the same mistakes 

1185
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,160
if you'd like. 
But would you go straight to the

1186
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,000
BTCC or would you? 
Look at the formulas. 

1187
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,000
No. 
I would start probably. 

1188
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,200
In so GT4, maybe around the GT4,
just yeah. 

1189
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,360
And then yeah, and get things 
going, get you to get into 

1190
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:23,880
touring cars. 
You need to go in at the right 

1191
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,960
level, you know, with the right 
people around you. 

1192
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:30,360
So I'll probably go go into GT 
racing to start with, and the 

1193
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,040
cars are good out-of-the-box 
there as well aren't. 

1194
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,480
They where they're all very 
even. 

1195
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,560
Easy, easy. 
So you can, you know, you can 

1196
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,680
get yourself, right. 
So I would like to do that. 

1197
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,400
I would like to do that at some 
point. 

1198
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,120
So fingers crossed if I sell the
company I I might do it. 

1199
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,480
We talked Gary about BBC. 
Grandstand before, didn't we? 

1200
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,040
With Murray Walker and how the 
BTCC became so huge in the 90s 

1201
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,040
in, you know, our favorite era. 
Even when with GAO Motorsport in

1202
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,720
2000 there was still a selection
of live races then weren't there

1203
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,440
on BBC grands. 
There was, yes. 

1204
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,600
How? 
Difficult would it be now? 

1205
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,120
Do you think running a team with
the fact you don't have 

1206
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,040
terrestrial television anymore 
and everything's behind 

1207
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,920
paywalls, has that changed 
things from a it must have 

1208
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,120
changed things a lot from a 
commercial standpoint, What you 

1209
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,480
mean being able to raise? 
The money to be able to give and

1210
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,200
sponsor interest and all that 
sort of thing. 

1211
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,240
Yeah, I guess, I mean. 
You know, I, I, I'm, I know Mark

1212
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,560
Blundell so I know you know his 
his business and what they do 

1213
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,640
and they they seem to manage to 
they seem to find the money if 

1214
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,280
you like to go into it. 
But I I don't know what it's 

1215
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,240
like now. 
You know we didn't have to do 

1216
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,720
that quite so much. 
It's always been you know the 

1217
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,640
driver comes along with some 
with money that that's just how 

1218
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,840
it's always been if you like and
until the manufacturers get 

1219
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,800
involved and this is what we're 
talking about the quality of 

1220
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,800
drivers and I'm not saying 
they're all shit at all. 

1221
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,720
I'm not, you know, some of the 
paying, you know, still amazing 

1222
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,560
drivers but if you get the 
manufacturers back involved then

1223
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,080
that's when you that's when you 
get the paid drivers and that's 

1224
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,680
that whole super Tory. 
Look at it. 

1225
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,760
You know how do you alpha BM 
bring their own drivers in? 

1226
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,920
Yeah, I think you know everybody
on the. 

1227
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,720
Grid one, certainly probably in 
Italy, but and in the UK were 

1228
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,560
probably paid. 
I think it was pretty much 

1229
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,760
everybody on the grid was paid. 
Yeah, I think that was what 

1230
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,040
that's not. 
The case now when we, when we. 

1231
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,480
Chatted. 
With Reedy about about the 

1232
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,160
quality of the field back then, 
he said. 

1233
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,240
You know, there were more paid 
drivers in BTCC than they were 

1234
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,080
in Formula One at the time. 
Yeah, I think. 

1235
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:24,480
I think he's very. 
Very true. 

1236
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,400
That was the level of 
competition. 

1237
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,840
At the time and that was the 
level of the the manufacturers 

1238
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,720
were pumping in that much money.
It's yeah, they were. 

1239
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:33,280
I I remember testing with 
Anthony. 

1240
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,520
Reed, We were testing at 
Castlecombe in Touring cars and 

1241
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,120
that that was for the Nissan 
drive. 

1242
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,880
I love Anthony. 
If he's such a character. 

1243
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:41,760
Yes, he is. 
Yeah. 

1244
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:42,640
And we were. 
We were. 

1245
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,600
Testing and. 
And and he just he said Gary 

1246
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,600
says he's very well spoken. 
He said Gary said he said I do 

1247
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,320
have to tell you said I'd rather
die than be slower than you. 

1248
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,480
I went, all right, well, this is
Castle Coombs for anything's 

1249
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:57,400
possible. 
And it's possible. 

1250
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,880
It's very bumpy. 
Yeah, you could have to drive. 

1251
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,080
Anthony, it's all right. 
You know, don't worry about it. 

1252
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,800
He was actually quicker than me,
but he was prepared, had to die.

1253
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,880
So it's a great impression, 
Yeah. 

1254
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,480
How can I? 
Say that that was a great 

1255
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,320
impression. 
Actually, who who were some of 

1256
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:12,360
the standout? 
Driver. 

1257
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,960
Characters maybe, you know, off 
screen, Gary through the 90s and

1258
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,200
the BTCC in particular, I'm 
guessing. 

1259
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,680
I think I know who you're 
probably going to say, but 

1260
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,400
Jason. 
Plato. 

1261
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,400
Yeah. 
I was thinking maybe? 

1262
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,920
JC as well, yeah, Yeah, I mean. 
Yeah. 

1263
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,520
What Clenon do you mean? 
Yeah, I'm interested to know 

1264
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:31,240
now. 
What made you say? 

1265
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,160
Plato so quickly? 
Oh well. 

1266
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,000
I've had a few nights out of. 
Play so it's great, yeah, Yeah. 

1267
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,680
But I'll leave it there with 
him, yeah. 

1268
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:45,000
Clenand was a clever bugger 
really because he he, he, I'll 

1269
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,800
be in a clash at Donnington at 
Redgate first corner. 

1270
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,640
And. 
But he or or what he used to do,

1271
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,320
if you ever had a coming 
together with him, he would 

1272
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,080
blame you straight away because 
he was a bit more experienced. 

1273
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:56,520
You know what I mean? 
He'd just blame you straight 

1274
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,440
away and because you were young 
and go, oh, oh, was it me? 

1275
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,560
Do you know what I mean? 
He just, you know, he was good 

1276
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:02,640
at that. 
He was good at that. 

1277
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,520
But yeah, but he was pretty 
clever. 

1278
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,000
Clever. 
Yeah, he was. 

1279
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:08,840
He was. 
He played. 

1280
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,760
Mind games. 
Yes, yes, I know he. 

1281
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,280
Spoke particularly about the 
mind games he played with Ricard

1282
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,040
in 95. 
Yeah, he's pretty good coming up

1283
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:19,320
trim. 
On the grid and just sort of 

1284
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:20,920
saying, well. 
I'm just going to overtake you 

1285
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,480
on the inside. 
You OK, Rick, You know, and and 

1286
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,800
it would happen because it was 
in Rickard's head. 

1287
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:27,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1288
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,240
Yeah, it's. 
Yeah, Very clever, man. 

1289
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:30,600
Yeah. 
I had struggled with that, you 

1290
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,920
know, with Giovannardi. 
I remember once that we ended up

1291
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:34,840
on a grid with no mirrors, no 
wing mirrors. 

1292
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,520
It was on the wall map lap. 
We'd been winding each other up 

1293
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,800
and actually sitting on the 
grid. 

1294
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,680
She haven't got any mirrors 
left, but but yeah, there's a 

1295
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:49,800
lot of mind games in motorsport.
I'd like to thank Gary for 

1296
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,960
spending some of his. 
Valuable time with us today on 

1297
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,400
Stories from Super Touring. 
Gary, thank you so much for 

1298
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,040
coming on the show. 
Really appreciate it and thank 

1299
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,200
you for having. 
Me. 

1300
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,320
Can I get down the pub now? 
Yes, I can. 

1301
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,440
Have a beer? 
Meanwhile, We'll be back. 

1302
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,160
Next week when we're joined by 
motorsport photographer Greg 

1303
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,000
Denton to look back at the 
memorable European Grand Prix 

1304
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,200
support race at Donnington in 
1993. 

1305
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:14,240
Until then, goodbye.