Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of Stories From Super Touring.
Now this week, we're joined by someone who brought the British
Touring Car Championship into our homes during the Super
Touring era. It's former racing driver and
current broadcaster John Watson. John, thank you so much for
joining us on the show today. Welcome to Stories From Super
Touring. How are you doing?
Well, first of all, thank you very much.
I'm doing reasonably well actually.
All the stuff that we're talking about off camera, that was the
best stuff, I have to tell you, but we.
Could talk about it again. That's not a problem.
There, there, there. There's so much, so much about
British Touring cars. My memory of going back when
you're you've already even thought of you.
But I mean, probably your dad's weren't even born.
But going back even to the 50s and 60s, seventies, 80s,
whatever, whatever. Then my oh, what sort of breed
is your dog? He's.
A. He's a cross between Jack
Russell and. Staffie, wonderful.
But we're the Stafford, the bull terrier in my family when I was
a kid growing up. And they are a wonderful dog.
Don't let anybody tell you sappies are not great dogs.
Oh no. He's he's wonderful.
He's beautiful. Anyway, sorry, getting back to
the subject, I I came into touring cars I think at one of
its Zenith periods and you had what, 1011 or 12 manufacturers?
All competing in the beauty of what I think at that time was
that there was a great deal of individuality between a Nissan
or Renault or Ford or Vauxhall, whatever else was running,
because you could identify them. And the.
Engineering was individual as well.
I think about when Williams took over the running of the Renault
of the Renault Lagunas, I mean they made big strides in terms
of the technology that they put into that car, principally the
way that they looked at the car and said, well, we don't know to
think about touring cars in touring car terms.
Do you think about racing a touring car with our expertise
as racing in Formula One or whatever we're doing?
And simply one of the things they did was.
They shuffled the engine, gearbox package back almost into
the car's cockpit to get a better weight distribution.
The centre of gravity, all the things that they know make a
racing car competitive and eventually everybody had to
follow. Suit Walker showed the same as
the Volvos, Nissan, and particularly Nissan.
They went almost even further. I mean, I think the engine was
almost that far back. The drivers were sitting in the
backseat. Let alone, and I don't see that
today so much because everything is too prescribed by regulations
and I know that regulations are their partly because.
They've got to. Control these things, but
ultimately it's all about controlling costs and if you
don't control costs then everything is a runaway train
and it'll be those teams have got the biggest budgets, that
will be the teams that will dominate and I think having a
serious and British. During cars, for example, right
now is not about a brand dominating, it's about
entertaining the public. And motorsport today is about
entertainment. The the element of the sporting
element of it is a secondary issue.
If you want to put a a show a show on television or invite
people to come to a racetrack to watch 30 odd cars or whatever it
is these days running in a touring car around they.
Need to be entertained. Now they'll have their heroes
and they'll follow their brands, but they want to be entertained
and that's ultimately where motorsport today is.
It's an entertainment, maybe more than motorsport, as I would
think about it. You're coming from the The Dark
Ages. So obviously this podcast is
called Story from Super Touring, so we are going to be focusing
on that era of touring car racing and the influence you had
on it is 1/2 of the broadcast in Durham for the BBC alongside
Charlie Cox. But I think we we we think it
would be rude of us not to discuss your outstanding racing
career, which obviously speaks for itself. 154 Grand Prix, 20
podium finishes, 5 victories and narrowly missing out on the 1982
title, you left quite a mark on racing yourself.
Well, listen, my last. Grand Prix was effectively in
1983, but I did a 1/2 race in 85 because my esteemed former
teammate Niki Lauda had tripped over a straw.
And a hen kicked him. That's an that's the Northern
Ireland expression. By the way, and he couldn't take
part in the European Grand Prix at Brands Hatch in 85.
And Ron Dennis kindly invited me to sit down to Nikki's car.
And I that was my final Grand Prix in 1985, but up until up
until 83 that was. I did 151 Grand Prix and then
she's 152 in total. So it's a long time ago.
And again, if you look back, I look back in the cars racing at
that particular time and I look at her current Formula One car,
current Formula One cars, ugly. They're fatty, they're
overweight and that's what the only thing in the world you can
say today is ugly, fat and overweight.
There's a racing car because you can't tell them.
You can't describe a person saying fat and overweight and
ugly in this world we're living in.
What a sad world we're living in.
And it's very true. Talking about the cars of the
era, John, you do hold the notable distinction of winning
the first Grand Prix for a carbon fibre monocoque car when
you took the the McLaren MP4 onto a home victory at the
British Grand Prix. That must have been a very
special day for you in 1981. It was a very, very important
day and it was a very special day also.
But I think the reason why it was very special, it's not so
much because it was history being made.
It was a very important day for McLaren.
It was a very emotional day for my family who were present on
that day. There are.
There are certain races that occur through history where
there seems to be an. Emotional, compound or component
involved and I know that in latter days Nigel Mansell are
one of our world champions, particularly when he's racing at
Silverstone, British Grand Prix would say.
He felt he he gained a second lap because what he called
people power. Well, I think on that particular
day in 1981, maybe I was the prototype for people power
because the way the race unfolded in the number of
incidents, I'll not go into the ball because take too long, but
I found myself in the lead of the race.
And when that arose and that occurred, I was aware that
around the racetrack there was a very sudden but very, I mean
almost I. Can't.
I'm feeling the shivers in the back of my neck.
I could see people standing up and cheering, and I could almost
hear the chairs because the reality was they were going to
see a victory which they probably thought was an
unexpected victory on that day. And they embraced it and they
embraced me and they embraced the whole day.
I remember it was a Saturday Grand Prix at Silverstone as we
and Silverstone didn't race on Sundays until the late 80s.
And I think the victory on that day was actually the public that
were there because they had a day which they.
Remember, and I'm very fortunate even now, I'll go somewhere,
maybe it might be a supermarket, it might be an airport, maybe
filling up with fuel and a fuel and somebody will turn around
and say. I know who, I know you.
And then we go through this ring and yes, and they said, well, I
was there and I said, well, you must have been a child because
most of the people have said about 40 years younger than I
am. So, but I think I'm very
privileged to have had the opportunity to win a British
Grand Prix and I think the. Interaction between what I saw
following the raid, when the race finished and then it did a
lap of honour and the whole atmosphere and it was just a
wonderful sense of joy. I think joy is the word best
sums up the day. Everybody was happy with the
outcome and I was happy McLaren were over the moon and the
people that backed McLaren were over the moon because it
supported their judgement and. Having the McLaren, the carbon
fibre chassis technology, my brother, father and sister were
in the grandstand. They watched it.
And it was just all round of joyous day.
Good. Well, you, you went down in
history there, John, by just that achievement alone, so that
in itself can never be taken away.
So that's a massive achievement. Well done to you.
Thank you. So I know you've just, you know,
alluded on it earlier in your final year of F1 in 1983, you
beat your team mate, the famous great Niki Lauda, and scored the
only win for the team that year. But you'd have to sport.
It appears rather at a bit of an abrupt end for sure.
OK. I mean the.
Unlike my my illustrious, now I have to say regrettably late
teammate who tells a different story.
But he got the story wrong fundamentally.
In 83 I was on a one year contract and as the year
progressed I won Long Beach and that was only raised by town one
that year as we got to the end of the year in South Africa.
Again, a Saturday Grand Prix on the way.
Back, one of the officers of Philip Morris Marlborough, who
were the sponsors of the team, said.
I suppose you're going to have to ask you to.
Continue next year, aren't we? I said.
Yeah, well, let's do it now. So I got back into the UK on
this Sunday. On the Monday I got a call from
Nikki. They said be careful, Be aware
that Alan Frost is looking to take your seat.
Your car, your drive. I don't know why, What's up?
And apparently what had occurred was that there had something
that occurred in the Renault team in 83 and it culminated on
the the Sunday following the Grand Prix.
Another Alan, flew back on Saturday night as well to Paris.
He was summoned to Renault Renault headquarters in Paris
and having not won the World championship.
And he should have won the world championship, actually.
But reliability issues were the reasons why he didn't He or he
was the worthy world champion. PK won it, but actually Allen
was the worthy world champion and he was summer summarily
fired by the Rezi, the Renault company.
And I mean. Knock, knock you over with a
feather. I mean, Allen just.
I mean, he didn't know what to say, he didn't know what to do.
But his first reaction was through to.
Go to Philip Morris, Marlborough, because he'd he'd
driven with me, with me and McLaren in 1980.
So he thought there's an opportunity possibly at Ferrari
he wanted to go to a manufacturing team.
He. Wanted to go to a team that was
a turbo engine team, which was Ferrari was at that time and
phoned up John Hogan who was the first person he would speak to
and said, listen, I've been fired and after about half an
hour the shock sort of dissipated and the response was,
well look, sorry Allah, the Ferrari seats are occupied,
don't we have a seat at McLaren? And Allan said, well, hold on a
second, you've got Nikki and John.
And the response that came back was?
Nikki's under contract, John is out of contract.
We would like to talk to you about new driving for us in
1984. And frankly, it was a slam dunk.
And the reason I say that is simply because.
I was at that stage 37 and Nikki, I think was 35.
So 3435, I mean, Nikki had already retired once from
Brabham on a whim and Claren didn't want to find themselves
in a situation where they had two drivers and, you know, 2
senior drivers who at any point could decide to do a runway and
leave McLaren and Marlborough in a lurch.
So here's a gift horse. They didn't need to look at him
twice in the mouth to say John is out of contract.
Say thank you, John, for all you've done for the team, but
we're going to go on that line for us, which is what happened.
Was that a regrettable way to end your career, John?
It was. It was regrettable because for
me it was a decision. That wasn't my decision.
It was it was a corporate decision, A-Team decision.
Look, if I'd been in the situation that Marlborough and
McLaren were in at the same time, I'd have done the same
thing. It was the logical and rational
thing to do because teams are going to look after their own
interests. Not look after my interest or
even look after Nikki's interest.
They have to look after their own interests.
So that was the decision that was made and with great, you
know, regret because obviously in 84 that McLaren was the card
to be in and 84 the championship.
Who won the championship lady for?
By half a point. No, that's right.
To do by half a point and as a consequence of that half a
point, victory. Nikki had a.
Two year contract for 8384. That then obliged the team to
retain them for 85. I have been told, and I know
that other people may oh, you know, I'm the person that makes
the decisions in the team, not our sponsors.
But actually it would have been interesting.
Nikki had not won the championship and Ally, for
example, had won it. I don't know whether Nikki would
have been in McLaren in 1985 or not.
Or would McLaren have gone out and tried to secure the services
as they had done at the end of 83?
Of a young Brazilian driver called Ayerton Senna, Senna
turned down the chance to drive in McLaren in 80.
Four, because he felt it was too much or too soon.
But I'll tell you what, if he had the opportunity in 85 as
opposed to? Where he ended.
Up going to which is John Claire Team Notice.
Yes, but then you can't rewrite history.
I'll do my best. I will give you all the scuttle,
but but then anyway, well. At least we now know they'll be
now. Now.
That's my version, but nothing. It is an honest and accurate
version. For this series of stories from
Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2, which is
being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June
2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question.
Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories From Super
Touring? Send your answers to Pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode this series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. Moving on from when you when you
did leave F1, you then spent some years in sports cars and
had a very competitive year with Jaguar in 1987, narrowly missing
out on the World Sports Car Championship.
Was that a good time in your career?
Exciting time. I enjoyed Group C and at the end
of 83, what am I going to do for the rest of my life?
I. Don't know why.
Only an income. And it's a horrible thought
because all of a sudden you know they living in this sort of
gilded world of Formula One that the reality of no longer being
wrongly driver is a pretty horrifying thought.
But because I had association with Porsche through the Tiger
Turbo motor and then Rothman, who were the sponsors of the
Porsche team at that time, I was invited to take part in a test
at Puerto Rico. And then I got my first race
with the team and they ran on the third car in the Spa 1000
kilometres with Fern Shoupon. But later that year I then had
the opportunity to drive in the Fuji 1000 kilometres, which is
the final round of the Group C World Championship.
The car I was going to drive or the car I did drive was the car
that was shared by Derek Bell and Stefan Bellock.
But Derek because of the way the drivers are being lit up, I
think over Lamor or whatever. Derek couldn't win the drivers
championship in Group C but he was in with a pop to win the
championship in America of the instant championship.
So Porsche, said Derek. Off to North America I got the
call would I like to drive in the 1000 kilometers in the Fuji
with with Stefan Bellock? Delighted over the moon.
So I went out to Japan and the there's a slight problem because
Jochen Mass was the other driver who could win that Group C World
championship. Jochen and I have been friends
for many, many years. I didn't know Stefan.
I was certainly very aware of him, but I didn't know him.
And in fact going up to the raise up to the circuit on the
whatever Thursday, Jochen and I drove up and he said, come on
John, you're our mate let's give me a hand.
Would you help me win the world championship?
Let's Jochen. I'm here to help you.
I'm here to help Stefan. I can't do that.
And as it turned out, Stefan and I, or sorry Stefan won the race
and I helped him. I could drove with him.
Stefan Bell off was one of the most remarkable, wonderful,
delightful, sweet race drivers you'll ever meet in your life.
And it was. Tragic, Tragic that he lost his
life in Spa in 85 S Anyway, I then went forward and drove him,
Sir. For McLaren BMW of 1986, which
was I enjoyed Thuric racing in Northern America.
Fantastic race tracks, great racing and I love America.
I love going to America. And I mean I do that in a time.
I'd go back to Isla Morada, part of the Florida East.
Right now this is the beginning of the Tarpon season.
Now I can hear from your silence clue what I'm talking about.
Tarpon is Tarpon is one of the most amazing fish in that area.
Whatever. I hooked up one many years ago,
I thought I'd got a Mack truck at the end of my line.
These things are just outrageous.
Anyway, I'm diverting North America's great.
Going to race for Jaguar, Tom Walker Show ran a fantastic
team. The X-ray Sevens and eight X-ray
Sevens and Eights way, way ahead of technology in terms of
chassis design, chassis stiffness, aerodynamics.
Porsche still had the best little more car in 87 and 88.
Jaguar made a big change and they won the race and there was
a very, very tight race at the very finish.
But the technology between what Jaguar had with AV12 basic
production engine and the Porsche Print Turbo flat 6, the
flat 6 engine turbochargers, the better engine.
The Jaguar was a tall, narrow engine which allowed better
aerodynamics under the car that you know, the the tunnels under
the car. Both teams ran at a very, very
high level and both teams achieved great success.
And I was fortunate enough to be able to drive on both teams
through my, what I call the tapering of period of my
professional racing career. And that's what I did when
Formula One left me. Then I was able to go into Group
C and it was a way of just gradually easing down to a point
when it was like it came to a natural conclusion that when you
get to 40 or 41 or whatever, people aren't going to rush up
and sign you up on the contract because they think you're too
old. And they're looking for younger
drivers who are going to be a little bit more, let's say,
aggressive or however you want to describe the younger driver.
So John, once it did come to its natural conclusion, the second
career, the broadcasting career began.
And we saw you with people like Andrew Barrier, Richard Nichols,
I remember Allied Car, Ben Edwards, of course, legendary
partnership of Watty and Edward. How did it all start?
Did you sort of slot into it like some drivers or did you
have a clear plan, sort of David Coulthard, I'll get into TV one
day. Oh damn.
It. What does that mean?
Well, it was sort of. It was circumstantial because
back end of the 80s, BBC Radio 2 live were covering Formula One.
Simon Taylor was the lead commentator and I got an
invitation to come along and and contribute to some of the Grand
Prix and that was the beginning of a radio.
And then at the back end of I think 1989, Sky were doing
occasional coverage. Oh, there's occasional coverage
on Sky with Andrew Marriott. And then we had a full year in
1990, Andrew and myself and other people, and it was just, I
loved it and what it was, was a natural extension of being a
Formula One driver or a Group C driver.
And I got all the buzz and all the excitement, the adrenaline I
still do when I go to an event today.
And it enabled me to find an outlet which was still involving
me in motorsport. And I love it.
I mean, I just can't wait a minute.
In a couple of weeks, 3 weeks time.
I'm off to Paul Ricard for the first round of the Fanatic GT
Europe World Challenge. 3 Hour Race David Anderson's lead
commentator. It's just it's I can't give it
up. And apparently it's I'm still,
believe it or not, quite a competitive person.
I don't. Think that will never that will
never leave you that. Will never.
It doesn't. Then it's again, it's an outlet
which gives me a thorough enjoyment, fulfilment, but I
can't think of another profession that I could have a
role in that. Gives me as much joy.
And satisfaction. They're sitting down behind the
microphone and working with David David as a fantastic
commentator. He is the mastermind of
motorsport. I mean, he is almost icon of a
freak because. He.
Don't remember he can rip every car.
You know if you go to Spa 24 hours, we're going about 65
entrance of which there must be about 200 drivers.
He will tell you every driver inside leg measurement when they
were born, what they've done. Good guy, bad guy, whatever.
Unbelievable. And the pair of us sit there and
we bang it up, we knock it out and whether it's a 24 hour race,
it's far 9 hours Kalami or whatever, it's just energy
driven, adrenaline driven. And I I just love it.
I just love it. Cast your mind back, if not not
quite as far as what we've spoke about already.
But in 1990 I remember you tested the first ever Jordan GP
car. That must have been quite an
experience for you compared to all the experience you'd have up
to the previous years with McLaren in Formula One.
So how how was that for you in 1990 testing that card Well?
I mean, it was an interesting opportunity because.
Eddie Jordan Diddly I died diddly.
Well, I'm keys to work here as I.
Tell you but. We all love them.
Anyway.
Eddie because I was working in Silverston at the time and.
You're under the. Greasy spoon at Silverstone
every lunchtime And Eddie would say, oh, would you join the car?
You know, the car I want to. And the reason he asked me is
because he didn't want to put in a young, particular, a young
driver who might come along with a few quid and say I'll I'll
drive here next year. So I was sitting around doing
nothing and I was still young enough at the time and had
enough expertise. But I think the real reason was
I was probably a safe pair of hands.
I wasn't going to Chuck off the wall.
And I thought, well, I'll do it because I'm now involved in
broadcasting. Driving a car which will be a
contemporary Formula One car, will give me an insight into
what these cars feel like. Because that's what, 7-8 years
down the road from when I was racing permanently and drove the
car at Silverstone for the first time, designed by Gary Anderson.
And I drove the car, I didn't know what to explain.
I didn't know it was going to be a basket case, was going to be
an absolutely star car and it was unquestionably a star car.
What Gary did and the team that that small team based up at
Silverstone in Eddie's workshops produced a car which I think
still is one of the iconic Grand Prix cars of.
History. Yeah, the 191 is beautiful.
Yeah, and it just had, it had a it had a super little chassis,
it had a Ford engine and a little colours with whatever the
HP or whatever the designation was.
It just was a lovely car. And then when they ended it up,
then that iconic green, Fuji and whatever other colours were
wrong. You got it.
It was just a lovely car and I drove it at a Silverstone
initially and I came out of that, got all of the cars.
I think it's OK. I think it's all right.
You know, didn't do anything bad.
It was user friendly. So EJ thought, well, I have a
bit more of this and it's all Eddie, It was all free.
You never paid. You never paid in your life.
He would have expected me to pay anyway.
I did it as a favour. Because we're both from the same
Isle and same country. So I did it as a favour to a
friend and anyway it was went down to Pembury, had a couple of
days done at Pembury, did an extended test and just did a bit
more running in the car, got better and better and better.
At which point then thank you very much, John and Andrea.
The Chesteris came along and back from Gash and they became
the two. Regular drivers.
But the driver that really made the Jordan team was actually a
Michael Schumacher. When Michael had the chance to
drive and Eddie, it was not a free drive.
You got paid by Jochen Airpash. I know the sum of money it was
you got a lot of money. And then when you tried to get
him to Drew the race at Monza, you lost out.
But those are those are the stories that we'd never hear
from EJ. Oh no.
No, no, he never tells that Busy.
So you you you spent some time with Eurosport covering the F1
and as as Greg said there, I I particularly enjoyed your work
with Alard Kalf and Ben Edwards. But it was in 1998 where you
started covering the BTCC that was your first season.
How did it all come about? I think it was a little bit.
Of Mark Wilkin, who was at BBC at that time.
He was the director of the of the Touring Cars BBC.
We're looking to develop the programme.
I was not doing anything at that stage.
Formula One had concluded at the end of 96 when Eurosport last
night ITV came in. So I was hanging around a little
bit and I was offered the opportunity and I thought well
it's a domestic championship, might be very good to be
associated with it and I thought why not.
So we did a little bit of a a pre run up at the BBC and
Charlie and I did different roles.
He did the expert. Now that the commentator, he
then reversed the round and decided that Charlie would make
the better lead commentator and I'd make the better expert.
And that's basically how it how it unfolded and started.
So it was again a different championship.
I didn't know a huge amount about touring cards or the
competitors but you know Charlie is a pretty impressive guy.
He's an ounces. Or nosy, but with a very, very
good turn of speech. The only thing he didn't have
was one of my favorite Australians is a guy called Rex
Hunt. And Rex Hunt had these fishing
programs which were shown in the UK, and one of his favorite
expressions was you couldn't blow a dog off a Chinese.
Now Charlie had lots of other expressions.
He didn't. Know that that was my favorite.
You couldn't blow a dog off a chain.
I've been working with Charlie was certainly it was a different
experience than let's say Ben or Allard or Andrew Merritt.
But I think it it it gave again an audience sort of, wow, what
are they going to come up with next?
What's John going to say next? What's Charlie going to say?
I mean, it was, it was on one occasion, it got a bit feisty in
the commentary booth. Really.
Oh yeah, occasionally. It doesn't happen very often,
but it's on one occasion and there's a little bit of sort of
toe to toe, eyeball to eyeball and it.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Charlie, I'll tell you if you ask him.
But, you know, it calmed down because emotions get high.
You're when you're involved and your passions are flowing, the
juices are running and you're into their thing and you're on A
roll and you're and Matt Neil's coming.
This is OK. And he's just overtaken.
Don't do that again. That's my rule.
Sorry, Charlie. Right.
Anyway, anyway, listen, I propose them for membership.
The BRDC. We got over it all, but it's
all, it's competitive in the commentary booth because
everybody wants to have the microphone, everybody wants to
have the opportunity to continue or to contribute to what's going
on. So it's competitive.
Yeah. It's a bit a damn sight easy if
you're in it on your own in there by the sounds of it.
I. Say single commentaries never
work because you need the balance of two people.
And if you've got two competitive people together and
he's just trying to, you know, pull them.
I mean, even I think going back to the health and days of Murray
Walker and James Hunt, Murray was the.
Consummate, motorsport commentator, professional in
everything he did, James does, laying back I.
Don't think I think I had similar issues.
I don't think I got on to start off with, did they?
So, so, so they were made to share a microphone, weren't
they? At the end, they were given a
single mind because the the producer again, Mark Wilkin,
realized that if they had two mics, they'd have two, two
commentators constantly talking over one another.
That's awful broadcasting. So they had one microphone, and
on occasion James is trying to wrestle at my.
John, was there any sense of that responsibility taking over
from Murray as you did in 98? You know, the man was a legend,
wasn't he? Murray was a legend,
undoubtedly. I mean, the part of the legend
was the boys. But the man himself, the man, he
was just a lovely, lovely man and utterly and totally
professional in every part of what he did.
I mean the the preparation he did, his notes, his script
notes. I mean, it's all in tiny
writing. Nobody could read it except
Mary. And I mean, he could have talked
to the Cars come home. Maybe you could do a single
commentary. No problem whatsoever.
The danger of a single commentary, a single person
doing a commentary is it's a bit like, eventually, wallpaper.
You need a balance of two people, you know, one throwing
to the other or some on occasions.
A little bit of AG in the commentary, but as long as it
doesn't become an embarrassment. You listen to Roy Keane doing a
football analysis. Love it.
And others you know, others are a little bit more timid.
But you know Roy. Sad as it is.
That's what my role is as a, as a as a an expert commented is
the lead commenter, which is Mary, is to create the scene, to
establish what's happening on the screen and to give the
overall commentary. But then you have James or me.
Or whomever. And who's who's the lead?
Who? Who have?
You got in Sky, for example. What's that guy called?
David. Croft.
No, no. What do you call that other guy
used to race? What's that guy used to race?
That's the guy I forgot. You know he's going to love me
when he sees this. We all are there to do our
little bit and it comes down to ultimately production and the
guys in the gallery and guiding us.
This even when I was doing this, in the Super Touring days, when
you work for the BBC, adjectives.
You can't describe an incident in a motor race as a disaster, a
catastrophe, a world changing event.
Because it's not, It's only a motor race.
Now if you've got something horrendous happens in the world,
a global disaster, that's that's what a disaster is.
But two cars touching going into old Hall corner and one spinning
off isn't a disaster. So we have to be careful about
how we would describe incidents. Yeah, yeah.
Exasperation on my part. For this series of stories from
Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2, which is
being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June
2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question.
Who was the first ever guest to star on Stories From Super
Touring? Send your answers to Pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode this series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. Watty I was going to ask, did
you ever get picked up by someone like a Jason Plato?
Or because you're quite outspoken, which we love, by the
way, Because I think T VS way too tame these days.
Did they ever, You know, what's all that about?
Did you have any? Why did you say that about me?
That sort of scenario. I don't think any driver ever
made any issues. Like one time I remember Patrick
Head got a bit of a hair up his backside about something he
perceived I'd said and he thought that I was very poor
McLaren and not not balanced about Williamson.
I hope I wasn't, and I think I. Certainly when Williams are
doing a good job I certainly gave him credit afford.
I think maybe I was more critical at times of a period in
94 and 95 which is obviously 94 was a very difficult year for
the team when they lost I am 7 but in 1895 Damon ought to won
the world championship and DC who was in a sort of as which
might says first full season made some schoolboy errors that
could have done better 96 then Damon did win the world
championship but in that Patrick just he just wanted to make a
point that I think that you're not being fair in some of the
comments. You've made I.
Disagreed with them, but Patrick is Patrick is Patrick, Yeah.
Yeah, Didn't come to fit. Didn't come to fisticuffs or
anything. No, no, no, no, no.
But I did send a gang around a sort of mother about two days.
Later I remember we did a we did a piece before about the BTCC
commentary. And I stand by this, and I'm not
saying it just because you're here, but Levi, you'll you'll
you'll back me up on this. I have always said as much as I
loved Murray Walker commentary wise, for touring cars, you and
Charlie Cox were the perfect foil because of the style of
racing, the, the chemistry and the camaraderie between you two.
It just all seemed to fit so, so well.
And I don't know if you get any. I don't know if you get much
feedback about your touring car time, comment the commentary
during your touring car times. But for me, the two of you were
the best pair ever. And and and and I really, really
enjoyed the coverage that you two both produced well.
First of all, thank you for that.
No problem. I mean, I think, I mean I can't
speak for Charlie, but he is an Aussie and I mean Aussies are
outspoken and I think that's great.
And he's opinionated. I'm outspoken and opinionated as
well. And when you've got a highly
competitive championship as as touring cars, super touring cars
wear in those days, then it's not very difficult to, you know,
add to what you're seeing on screen.
And I think that I think I hope that what we were doing was at
the time and it was probably relatively fresh in terms of
what was coming on on British Touring cars.
Yeah. Thank you for the compliment.
And I'm sure Charlie has got great reflections and memories
of what we were doing at the time.
Apart from that one moment which I've already told you about.
Yes, what happened? What happened then, John?
What were you live? Was it one of the BHP recorded
highlights? What?
Oh, I think we're Oh yeah, we were live.
You know, just there was an incident coming into the chicane
at Suxton and I'd been, so the way we were handing over to each
other, but there's that came up to the chicane, there's an
overtake and I called the overtake at the same time as you
know, going through and that seemed a natural thing.
And then he didn't think it was quite as natural.
So a little moment, a little quiet, private moment, and we
moved on. We didn't send.
Business card, but we moved on. What's he going to say?
Do you still keep in touch with him?
I presume that's no. I I see him from.
Time to time at Silverstone. Here's as I mentioned, I
proposed him for membership to the BRDC away back in somewhere
in the early 90s. I don't know how frequently
Charlie attends certainly events.
I mean he might turn up at touring car events and he's very
close to the management in in the touring car operation.
I've got this Alan Guy. Alan Guy, used car salesman from
Elburn has built up touring car racing into the fantastic
franchise it is today. Charlie Fox comes from a
background of of broadcast. He ran little sort of radio
stations throughout Australia. Both are very natural salesman,
big characters, big personalities, and yeah, so I
think Charlie might go to the touring car round and
occasionally he pops up at Silverstone.
Maybe something of of notice taking place at the time?
He was at Brands Hatch last year at the Super Touring Power event
and we desperately tried to get in touch with him.
We we we we're really keen to get him on the show so hopefully
at some point we can nab him, but yeah it's.
Don't, don't give up because he has good value.
Yeah. I mean, he's got anecdotes, you
know, as long as you're on. And he's got all these little
phrases, which are all. I mean, that's one of his
phrases. And no, it's all this good
stuff. Very good stuff.
Next time I see him at the BIDCI will collar him.
You grab him. I will grab him.
I will. I want to say, look, John.
Sent me out, I told you. I told you to grab him and they
told you don't let him go. We we've touched on it briefly
sort of recording before the the show and then again at the top
of the show coming into this bit, but sort of perhaps more in
the the Super touring era. Had you seen much of the BTCC
during the 90s before you came in with the BBC or was that sort
of something you had to to look into and research coming into
the start of the season in 98? I mean, obviously I'd watched
when it's on television and obviously the The Days and Mary
was involved in it, but my I suppose my focal point had
always been Grand Prix in Formula One, so if it was on
television then I'd watch it. I wasn't probably attending
events because I didn't have any purpose to go.
So it's really a matter of the opportunity arose.
There was a new discipline and then trying to sort of embed
myself into the championship to get to know the personalities,
characters of Jay. Ellen Guy was principal of it
and it was important for him to have it well presented.
And I suspect that the reason that that Charlie Cox became a
part of the broadcast line that was the lead broadcaster was
directly because of Ellen Garth. And you know, these things don't
just happen by chance. There's a reason, logic behind
it, and I suspect that Alan was very much a part of the purpose
and reasoning behind Charlie getting the role as the
commentator and I've been Alan would have been aware.
Of what I've done and the broadcasting I've done on EUR.
But as you guys have said, yeah, so they thought, well, why not
see if John's interested, give him a pop and let's see how it
goes. Yeah, that first season of of
your coverage was in 98. And I mean, what a year to come
into it, because that's regarded by many fans as the greatest
touring car season of all time. What were your memories of that
first year in particular the sort of the standard of the
racing, the quality of the drivers, the the the whole
championship really, Is it, you know, do you agree with that?
Would, would would have been one of the finest years of towing
car racing ever. Well, again, I think that
because of the number of manufacturers involved and
because every manufacturer was very individual and their
approach to working around the rules and regulations.
And there was a period when there's a transitional technical
and uplifting technology going into touring cars from, you
know, say a front wheel drive touring car look, God damn.
Or designed racing cars with front wheel drive that was
designed by technicians. God doesn't want front wheels.
He wants rear wheel drive, which is the natural place to have a
car driven. Steer from the front, drive from
the rear. Now you want to make a formula
which is drive from the front and steer from the rear, then go
down to B&Q and look at the guys driving around in there.
So it was a. Different discipline and the one
I hadn't had a great deal of interest or input into.
But when I realized and saw what was going on, the same Williams
did and this and it and Walton Show was doing.
And suddenly there was a big, I would say Formula One or let's
say Grand Prix technology input, which was interesting because
touring cars had always been fundamentally what do you see in
the leaders, what you get? And now we were seeing a big
change. And you're seeing also other
drivers, you know, not necessarily traditional touring
car drivers, but drivers coming in from other disciplines.
In Laura Yellow for example, was one that in Laura was an
outstanding driver and Formula 3000 and single seaters came in
and then part of the Nissan team.
And hold on that that's that's a class guy and he'd driven other,
you know, major championships coming into British Touring
House. So it suddenly had elevated
itself. And I I just thought it was very
exciting in terms of here's a British Championship, Touring
Card Championship, which became de facto the best touring card
championship in the world by country mile.
Yes. Yeah, it was.
It's often said on here that it was a world championship in
effect that just happened to be in one country.
That was the standard of it. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to
be said for that, you know, one world championship runner or a
world championship runner, 1 country, run backwards forwards,
whatever. But no, there was a great
championship and the racing was competitive.
And it was, you know, to say that the technology side of it
was what I think and many respects was what I find
appealing about it was because you're having that sort of
brain. Power going into How can we use
the rules of a touring car? Regulation to our advantage.
And as is often the case, the people that make the rules are
not the sharpest, sharpest knives in the drawer.
The people that are interpreting the rules Razor.
Sharp. And that, for me is again a part
of what makes it. That's the fascination, isn't
it? Yeah, I love all that I know.
I'm a friend of Ross from And you, you.
Ross was a phenomenal engineer, designer and moving on to the
greater things. And I mean, he subsequently
became the gamekeeper as opposed to the poachers, opposed to the
gamekeeper. In more recent days than Formula
One, if you write a rule, the more complicated you write the
rule, the more easy it is to find a way around it.
So if you can make a rule, that's one word.
That's hard to find a way around.
If you use 1000 words, there's a lot of guys out there who are
very lateral thinking in their interpretations, and they will
find a way to say what you can't do or what you can't can't.
That was the that was a part of the appeal and the attraction
that there are smart, smart people in these teams who are
now reading rules and regulations and interpreting
them in a way which is legal, yeah, but not how the rule was
intended. Yeah, and if you and if you
don't. Say that you if it.
Doesn't say you can't do it. That means you can.
Yes, and. And if the rule makers aren't
smart enough to understand there are guys out there who are
smarter than they are, yeah, well, then there's an open door.
There's an open door. Yeah, look at look.
And there's a prime example for recent for For listeners to
understand this look at the double diffusion from Formula
One. Yeah, didn't say you can't have
it. Look, look, when the Tyrell and
the Williams had six wheels. Didn't say you got four wheels.
Fan the fan. Car The problem The fan.
Car Oh, yes, yes. The Gordon Murray to this die,
this day would die because he will say, and he had legal
advice that the primary purpose of the fans on the BT46 fan.
Car was to cool the engine I've actually been I've stood between
Gordon Murray and the late Max Mosley.
Well, this was 30 years after the event and Max still said
that was illegal and Gordon said no it's not.
And Max was a barrister as well. This.
That's mad. That's that's that's what makes
it to me such a, you know, exciting arena to be involved.
And obviously bring it into the Super Touring world with these
rules. Look, 4 wheel drive.
Audi didn't say it couldn't be 4 wheel drive, so they did 4 wheel
drive and it's just clever thinking, wasn't it?
Yes, I mean simply it's again just somebody looking at the
regulations and and using those to their advantage.
I can't think of a lot, but the idea is obviously a very good
example. The.
Alpha wing. Alpha.
Alpha wing? Yeah, that's another one.
I mean in terms of four wheel drive, 4 wheel drive has never
been to success in motorsport on circuit racing, on set of
touring cars. No.
Formula One tried 4 wheel drive and it was an absolute abject
failure because aerodynamics came along and then better tasks
came along but already managed to find a way around and made it
work. But the your man just said the
Alfa Romeo. Alfa in 94, so it's before you
worked in the Championship. They were the ones who brought
aero, basically. A loophole in the rules
basically meant that as long as they produced 5000 examples of a
motor car, they could race it. So they produced 5000 with a
front and rear wing. So, but but when you when you
picked it up from the dealership, they're in the boot
of the car. They weren't fit you to.
The car they're in a, they're in a bag as the.
Manufacturer probably was aware we didn't have to fit them, we
just have to provide them. Yeah, and that's what they did.
And then again, clever thinking I I love all that stuff.
Yeah, but that's yeah, that's that takes me into the sort of
territory of John Le Carre and your spine always.
And you know, and listen, I'm sure there's a lot of all that
went on, you know, secrets within teams.
How did that secret get out? How did one team become aware of
what another team is doing? Yes, it's just, I love it.
I love it. There's lots of that happened in
the late 90s in the tour, in the touring cars.
There are lots of whispers of certain things that were going
on that were not quite so. There was the the example in 98
where Volvo was accused of spraying oil on the track in the
first race that you covered it. There was also I I enjoyed that,
that technical battle as much as as much as the the the track
battles, but sadly it's probably what killed off Super Touring
because it just went on and on and on.
Every, every formula where you've got a liberal, liberal
interpretation. Still.
I mean you, you've got it in touring cars, you've got a
prescriptive car, Formula One, We've got the Australian Grand
Prix this weekend and if you painted every single Formula One
car twice, took the decals off, it's quite difficult.
But you know, on television to television to switch.
Yeah, yeah, maybe an engineer could say, well, that car has
got a certain oh, sorry. Sorry, hold on, pit lane, Ted
would tell you. By the way, you know, Would
Natalie? Would Natalie Pinkham know?
So to John, back to 98 then. So the iconic year that it was
during that year, this was one of the years when Mansell came
into it and did the race at Donnington Park and your quote
was British Touring Cars has certainly eclipsed anything we
have ever seen before. Was that fond memories of a of a
race for you? And I mean, that's some
statement. Well, I mean.
Having Nigel join in because that took the dynamic of the
event changed because Nigel was a mega * and everywhere he went
he brought with them a of support mania.
Well, mania indeed. And Nigel is a phenomenal race
driver, make no mistake. And I mean certainly in his
Formula One era he drove, I mean.
Some of the best races, Nigel was actually an outstanding race
driver. By that I mean he was a good
racer. Not every Formula One driver,
not every racing driver, is a good racer.
They might be effective racing drivers, but they're not racist.
Nigel was a racer and of course it's very difficult with the
reputation that he had. To come into an into a different
discipline and and when, because there's no way he could come in
and not be a winning driver. So Nigel bought with him a a
massive amount of public interest, but also on his own
side. And that's the amount of
expectation and baggage I know was a though was a Donington
where Ian was a tiff. Nice to blame Tiff, Tiff says He
had nothing to do with it. Nigel brought a lot to to
touring cars for the period he was there and he brought public
interest, public awareness and would have brought more media
interest. Yeah, but you know, he the, the
next best British driver to take part between Derek Warwick and
Derek Grace is Alfa Romeo. Yeah, yeah, and.
But Derek wasn't a world champion.
The fact is Nigel was a world champion and maybe the way
Nigel's career had, the path that had gone down and there
was, there was controversy and you know, emotion and Nigel.
'S, you know, outpourings and Murray.
You know Murray. It's all a bit of a drama, but
it was the public at large loved him because he had passion and.
I mean, that's what, again, I think Nigel is probably best
known for is this passion and this passion behind the wheel.
It didn't always work out favourably for him and maybe he
did the touring car thing and he didn't make a life.
After Formula One in Touring cars, but often they didn't.
Do you know that was before he did touring cars.
I'm losing the track of the plot here.
Anyway, look, he's he is a very, very capable.
Accomplished race driver, but jumping into a touring car
against established touring car stars was always going to be a
big ass. Well, we're talking about that
because I want to ask in a moment, John, the difference
between the the highlights races that were recorded in London and
the live races. But just while we're talking
about F1 drivers, there's so many examples, but I've just
been writing some down while we've been talking tar Queeny
won the championship menu. Rydell came from single seater
backgrounds and had good to pick our careers, very good.
But Mansell, Palmer, Morbidade, Warwick, John Christophe, beyond
primarily all struggled, didn't know quite badly in a tin top.
Is that to do with adapting, as you've just said, or is it that
attitude of I'm the Formula One driver?
This is a bit beneath me, do you think?
It may be an element of that. I think that if you've come out
of a series such as you know a Formula One Grand Prix whatever
you're you're driving but there's a fundamentally high
downforce lightweight race car and and then you jump into a
touring car which is probably at least double the weight maybe a
bit more with a fraction of the downforce on a much smaller
wheel tire. The level of grip from the
rubber the rubber would not necessarily be of the nature of
a Formula One tire. So many elements were different
and and I did a race some of God it was back in 1991 or whatever
it was in the Jaguar XJR Fifteens which was a support
race it was a world control one rate series and there's a star
and I drove the car as I probably I had said but one of
the worst racing cars I'd ever driven because it was.
It was the weight was high up, There was no arrow on the car.
They're now driven the XJR eights and sevens eights and
nines, which were basically the same chassis but with a massive
amount of downforce. So the downforce controlled the
centre of gravity. The XJR Fifteens didn't have
that downforce. It was a bit fundamentally a
high performance Rd. car, so the car would lull up above.
But drivers who were accustomed to driving touring cars where
you had low levels of grip, high centre of gravity?
Was it Hubert? Hannah.
Not ring a bell? Not too.
But Hannah. Anyway, was it an Amin Hannah?
Was it? Alman Alman Alman was fantastic
in the XJR fifteens because he'd come from racing, touring.
Cars fundamentally low levels of grip high centre of gravity and
he developed the skills and to beat the guy it was very
difficult. I mean in fact he was way
quicker than maybe. I mean I know that Derek Warwick
did a very good job and in fact Derek one, I think that's not
one of the races. What I'm trying to get to is
that coming out of Formula One, high downforce, logic grip,
lightweight, you're very responsive cars.
Going into a touring car, which is totally the opposite and
thinking you're going to be in there and going to blow away.
The. There are many, many very good
race drivers who didn't race single seaters, who only had a
career in a touring car or something like a touring car,
who have evolved the ability and skills to be able to make sure
that they are the dominant drivers of that period.
It's it's difficult I feel to make that transition.
You may in time adapt, but it's not easy to walk in and just sit
down and think I'm going to. But even even during the the Pro
Car series, the BMW Pro Car series, which was at the late
70s, early 80s with the BMWM ones, again, heavy ish car, not
much time for it's not a lot of grip, you know, it's not easy
cars to drive the factory engine cars, the factory entry cars
were usually the best of the bunch, but nevertheless, because
you're a Formula One driver jumping into one of those and a
limited amount of running and road testing, there's no
guarantee that you're going to be competitive.
No, I think, I think one of the things that many people have
said that they've told us in on this show is that they found the
step from rear wheel drive, especially if they've come from
a single seated background coming from a rear wheel drive
car to a front wheel drive touring car, extremely
difficult. And some people never, never
fully got to grips with it and never really enjoyed it.
But they just, they got good at it because that was their job,
but it wasn't natural to them and I think a lot of people
found that step of struggle. Well, I did actually drive a
very competitive touring car, kindly invited to drive a Nissan
Primera up at Senators and one day and I mean, I never sat in a
car like it. And this time that was the
state-of-the-art. And I mean in terms of Hortman
218, ninety 300 horsepower you you weren't going to?
Burst the blood vessels in your eyes, that's for sure.
But the thing that was, I think, most difficult to learn, to
adapt. To was particularly under
braking and the transition from the brakes to the entry to a
corner because it was easy to lock up the front brake and
therefore you'd lose grip the front.
So that was the transition I felt was most difficult.
Also in the coming round, quorum on one lap.
Apparently the guys in the pits thought I was going to have the
biggest accident because the front wheel drive car was
suddenly the back was drifting around and round and I'm sitting
there thinking, OK, just hang in here, hang in there anyway,
nothing happened. But it is a different discipline
to what I grew up with and what I'm accustomed to.
And I would make no suggestion that I could ever have been a
competitive race car driver in a touring car because it was
almost an alien kind of concept to that I raced all my life.
I said just that brief acquaintance I had with the
Nissan was, I mean I I always felt I was good under brakes and
I had a good sense of distance, speed, judgement.
And I had braked. I thought we should brake in the
Nissan and all of a sudden, oh shit, what happened there?
It was a kind of how do you make that adjustment?
Because it didn't feel natural for the the, the adjustment I
was going to have to make didn't feel a natural adjustment that
felt artificial. So I mean as I don't need about
8 or 10 laps in the car and maybe if I'd spent more time and
then had the chance to process all the things that I had done.
And one of the things that I liked to do when I was racing
was if I'm in a strange car, like what do 3 or 4 laps come
in, stop 5 minutes, just download my own thoughts, go
back and again and then. So I didn't have that
opportunity. I didn't take that opportunity
with the Nissan. Had I done so and, you know,
thought about the braking, particularly the braking and
then the transition into entry into the corner, maybe I would
have managed that better. Maybe I would have done a
competitive time, I don't know. But look, the guys that were
driving those cars at that time were extracting the maximum
performance. I wasn't going to come in and
suddenly find 2 seconds a lap and make them look like a load
of Lemons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's yeah, I'm glad you remembered that John because you
did a feature at in the pre race show at Snetterton of you
driving the car and we were going to ask you about that and
and your thoughts about it. So it's interesting to hear your
thoughts about the the Nissan. And it was, I think that, you
know, mainly through my friendship with Alec and he was,
he was very anxious that I should have the chance to.
He wanted my thoughts, I mean principally to compare those of
the the drivers of the day. And it was.
Was I? I'm not sure who was at a yellow
and. David Leslie.
David, that's right. Just to see whether there was
actually something that I could bring.
Sort of a lateral thought. That because the drivers of the
day may not be so. I don't think I contributed
anything to the competitiveness of the car.
I mean, I probably flat spotted for the set tyres, but it was
enjoyment, experience and the little that I might have
contributed. I'm sure that they thought about
it. Maybe if they're having
debriefings later in the, you know, next event they might have
thought, well, John said this, but can you relate to that to
regular drivers? In terms of the coverage in
adapting, John, we touched on it before.
Primarily they were recorded highlights, weren't they
recorded at VHP Barry Ansgood Productions in Golf Square in
London. What was that like going into
the studio? Clubbing, as it were with
Charlie, recorded highlights, probably already knowing the
race result I'm sure from a couple of days before, which did
you prefer live or recorded and how was that for you?
Live is always best because everything is then more
spontaneous. But when you go into a studio to
do it, kind of spontaneity, kindness to drift into it, and
it's part of our responsibility to make it sound as if it is
alive rather than here are two guys sitting in a studio board
out of the mind. So I'd like to hope that what we
were doing in the studio was not a. 1,000,000 miles away from
what we were doing in a live event, but look at live events
and not just You can do live in a studio or you can do a pre
recorder in the studio, but live at the event is the best.
And you get there. You've got the atmosphere,
you've got the the ability to walk around the paddock to speak
to one or two people or if they'll speak to you, that's
another matter. But it's it's always better to
be on at the event and be live and I think that that ultimately
comes through in in terms of a broadcast.
What about you, Greg? Do you prefer that live?
Yeah, I think so. It gives you that thrill as as
what he will know for. Well, it's you're on the edge,
aren't you? You don't quite know what's
going to happen. You've got a running order.
Exactly. You know the race is so many
laps. You know it's going to start at
this time, but you don't know, do you?
As soon as those lights go out to use a Murray Crow, anything
could happen. Yeah, I think, I think likewise,
you know, you get that just additional adrenaline rush
you're you're waiting in the grid for the lights to guard and
then it's go, go, go. And I think having that bit of
pressure, because you're live, I think having that bit of
pressure, just like as a racing driver, you have a bit of
pressure where it makes you raise your game and you have to
be on it because you know you're alive.
There's there's when I I live in Oxford.
There's a place called the Westgate car, Westgate Shopping
Centre. They've got 3 barriers, entry
barriers. If I go within to one of those
barriers, there's two cars beside me I'm sitting at.
I want to beat the better barriers.
I was dead. It was that.
It's live. Come on, come on, let's about,
let's about. Come.
On do you how favorite is what? Yeah, I know Ben Edwards is.
You must have a sweet spot for Benji as you used to call him
because you. Commentated.
On Eurosport F1 Digital Players A1 GP.
Well I think I meant Ben and I worked together over a variety
of just it's been Formula One A1 GP and turning cars and also I
think we did some of the SRO stuff.
So I know Ben very well and we worked extremely well together
and you know Ben is a brilliant and I just you know just
everything he does and he's easy to work with there's it doesn't
exhibit let's say the kind of ego that other to remain
nameless. Many commentators.
I think I know exactly who you mean.
Might, might, might, might project.
So Ben was outstanding. But I enjoyed working with all
the people I worked with Simon Taylor with the radio and then
Andrew Marriott, then of course Alard and Alard and I, you know,
sort of as was the foundation of Eurosport really from the back
end of 81, because 81 was, we weren't on there that often.
There was an issue about who owned the rights to Eurosport at
Sky or. Whatever.
But we came back full time in 82 and Allard, I mean remember
Allard is Dutch, but his English is just phenomenal and his
thinking is phenomenal and it was a really great partnership.
And then Eurosport opted to move forward with with Ben and that
then took it on to a different platter.
And Ben and I worked for those two years together.
It was just great and very. It was very sad that at the end
of the day ITV came in and fundamentally paid Bernie enough
to take Eurosport off the air. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's
the loose phones of it, but there's a bit more detail on
that. And then going on with Charlie
was CC was a different dynamic to work with, but then he's
Australian. Yeah, and and and and the the.
The discipline is very different as well, isn't it?
Touring cars, short sharp burst of racing rather than your
longer endurance style racing or your longer Grand Prix.
But. Listen, I mean.
I know that the, the, the, the durations are different, but
actually anyone who I've worked with, I mean currently I worked
with David Addison principally. And if David was unavailable
because he's doing one of your touring car runs, then it might
be Bruce Jones or maybe somebody else.
But what I hope that my contribution is, is an energy
and a dynamic and you know, pushing it forward.
You know if you, if you had David or Bruce or whoever doing
it on their own and they will do an outstanding job.
It's never as good as having two people together, whether it's me
or somebody else, let's say in my case.
So there's an uplift in the energy, an uplift in the
vitality and I want, and I know that as SRO do as well,
broadcasting. On the GT3 events, we want to
engage an audience. We want them sitting in the edge
of their seat because, well, they can see what we're talking
about. We need to add something more to
make the broadcast. Yeah, yeah, get in there.
Get in there. And.
That's my job to sometimes be, let's say, not outspoken, but
let's say my observation would be.
But he's right. Yeah, Touching on that John,
about being that 4th, right, Say as you see it kind of approach
that you had with the commentary in your time in the BTCC, what
were your views of the driving standards at that time?
I mean, I think the driving standards were getting worse as
they are today because the nature.
Of the supporters became more competitive, there was more
physicality came into it. I mean, I remember on one
occasion, I mean Tim Harvey, God blessed him.
I mean everybody loves him. And Tim was driving for Peugeot
and I think it was an open power I.
Remember, Tim collided with somebody and I thought was just
was a blatant, inappropriate, blatant driving, I said.
I called him Rude Boy Tim just. It was a spontaneous comment,
but. Actually, you probably couldn't
say that today because somebody couldn't take offence at it.
You know, they've got to think about the world we're living in
now in 2024. Can you make that kind of
observation? It was like Tim just punched up
Tim London. That's a very funny, rude boy,
Tim. Yeah.
I think. I think it was Will Hoy he hit,
if I'm not mistaken. I remember you saying Johnny.
Poor. Will, everybody said Will,
didn't they sadly lost us like many, many years ago.
The will was a really nice man. I mean a thoroughly nice person
and. It was Ireland Bend, wasn't it?
Was he down at Ireland Bend? Ireland Bend?
Yeah, just took. The bank to 1.
Of the one of those boss rude boy.
Next I will quote. I will quote.
That I think there's still a lot of contact takes place.
I mean that's. It's because the cars are so
evenly matched and tires and everything, and if you had let's
say a number of tire manufacturers where you get a
variety of options and grip the levels and whatever.
But because everybody is now, as I call it, prescribed, how how
you overtake and the horsepowers are very similar, the car
performances are not a million miles away.
It's more line down to the individual drivers abilities but
there's still, I mean somewhere like brands, indie circuit, I
mean how they find a way around one another I don't know.
I mean and even it's highly, highly competitive and there are
some really good drivers, really good drivers and there's some
that are good but not at the level of the highest and it's
inevitable you're going to have contact.
There's a difference between the contact, maybe that I'm thinking
about, which might have been premeditated, and contact, which
is more a function of just five into one wouldn't go.
Yeah, I remember actually and and it's funny you mention, you
know, saying as you see it and all that, I'm midway through and
we're going slightly past Super Touring now into that first year
of the the BTC touring regs where Phil Bennett and Jason
Plato and Steve Super all got themselves into very, very
physical battles to the point where I think Bennett was banned
for for a meeting at Orton Park. And I remember, even I remember
at the time thinking, oh, John's not going to like any of this.
The coverage you and Charlie made, it almost felt as if we
knew you and we knew what you would like and what you wouldn't
like and you've scolded them all for.
And it was some pretty poor standards at that.
Point the thing that I don't like what I would call
deliberate or premeditated. Crash, bang, wallop, driving.
I don't think that's I just don't like that.
And the other thing I dislike is track limit abuses.
And I know that that's a part of motor racing in general, not
just in touring cars. So that's another thing where
drivers just simply they ignore what I would call the track
limit. And track limits have been
altered or the curbing has been reduced effectively because
circuits are now dual used circuits.
And if you're going to have British super bikes or motor GP
or whatever, and touring cars and Formula One, you have to
have something that works for all the disciplines.
But as a consequence, it's led to a lot of what I call I don't
like it, just inappropriate driving.
I took pride in my general, my time on race tracks where you
had quite significant curbing on the inside of a corner and some
cases on the outside as well, and you ruled those curbs at
your peril. And there's a penalty for doing
it because if you ruled it badly, you might spend or you
might have an accident and now they've got circumstances.
I mean, I'm glad to see that Brands Hatch and other vertical
John, John and Palmer circuits, MSP circuits that they're now
putting in mechanisms to monitor track limit abuses and
penalties. And again, in my series SRO, we
are doing the same thing. So if a driver is taking
advantage of track limits to gain time then that lap should
be deleted and if you do it regularly then you've got a a
penalty which would be added to your race time.
And I I I encourage that because I want to see drivers driving
within the constraints of the circuit, not just thinking they
can get away with it because they think they can get away
with it or because that's what they've grown up with.
We've now got a culture of motor racing around the world where
track limits are there to be abused.
Yeah, look. At the circuits in America John
you haven't got the the ability to do that.
You know there's a wall on the outside there's a small piece of
grass that's the outside before the wall.
That's one thing I I did a race in Atlanta 2045 E maybe in a
portion the LM ALMS championship Rd.
Atlanta no such thing. Like you know, you make a
mistake, you're off. It's going to hurt.
You're going to damage. The car, the Rd.
Atlanta is a fantastic race. Yeah, I love.
It but no room for error, is it? Absolutely.
And that's that's how I would like to see.
But because we've got the dual usage of our circuits in the UK,
but a lot of the major, you know, FIA Grade 1 circuits are
used for motor GP or for World Super Bikes or whatever.
So you can't have the kind of curbing that I remember from the
70s or maybe into the early 80s because in the case of water
cycles of a rider who's done that curbing can inflict major
injuries, life changing injuries.
So everything's now been flattened out.
And what I mean, MSV have put in little strips on say the bottom
of Graham Hill Bend. So if you get all four wheels
off the racetrack, you'll flip the monitor and that will
indicate that your abuse, track limits and that lap then will be
the time will be disallowed. Or if it's in a race and you
keep doing it, then you have a time added to your race Time.
I would encourage more of it because I think, you know, I'm a
hanger on a flogger at heart, so I would like to see it being
reigned back in and I want to see drivers driving with what I
was called pride. Just I want to see the best
drivers winning. I don't want to be the driver
that is the most abusive driver on the racetrack winning.
Well John, I think recently I I read, I think the F3 or F4 races
with the one match championship in Abu Dhabi or recently that
that race there in the winter, that every single car in the
race got excluded for track limits.
I'm not surprised. Right.
So there was, there was a race but no result for anybody.
It's. A It's a It's a culture that's
been allowed to. To to grow and then you're
trying to put the genie back in the bottle, which is affect what
you're doing very difficult and all you can do is then start
throwing up penalties. But if the penalty becomes a
story rather than the race, you know it's.
I don't know how you're going to put it.
I don't know how you're going to change it, but I think it should
be. There should be penalties and
even Formula One is now being seen to implement penalties.
Certainly in qualifying or in a race, if you exceed track limits
by more than a certain number, you'll get a time added or you
get qualify. You get your time deleted and
it's. I'll tell you if you and Formula
One, if you're on a set of tires, you've got one set of red
tires left for qualifying. Your chance to get into the race
into the top ten, let's say Q3 and your abuse track limits,
your time is taken away. That's a lot of penalty for you.
That's a penalty for the team. It's not just, it's the team.
So you've not just penalized yourself, you're penalized
yourself and the team. For this series of stories from
Super Touring, we are delighted to be teaming up with Brands
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 2 which is
being held at the famous circuit on the 29th and 30th of June
2024. The award nominated event was a
smash hit last year when it's debut edition transported fans
back to the 90s and this year's event will once again celebrate
one of touring car racing's most fondly remembered eras.
To enter the competition, just answer the following question,
who was the first ever guest to star on Stories From Super
Touring? Send your answers to Pod at
1990s btcc.com and we'll announce the winner on a later
episode this series. Meanwhile, let's get back to the
episode. So John, just finally, so super
touring, you know the era that we're speaking about now, you
know we we so many years on, 30 years later, what's so fondly
remembered by you in anything in particular that stands out all
these years later? I suppose it was in many ways.
It was a big family. It was a very nice place to
work. It was touring car racing coming
into a technological era, which you know, it had never
previously been in, both in terms of the engineering but
also drivers coming in from other disciplines because, you
know, they weren't available or they couldn't find seats and
other championships which they maybe would have liked to have
been in. And touring cars represented a
very good opportunity to make a living.
Look, if you're a professional racing driver, your job is to go
out and earn a living. And that's whether it's some
touring cars or GT or Elms or LMS or WEC or whatever it is.
If you're a racing driver, get out and make a living.
And you know, if I had the opportunity at the end of 83, if
somebody came along to me and said John in 84, do you want to
drive in World Touring cars or British Touring cars or whatever
it is, I would have considered it because it would have been a
part of what I would have thought was, you know, Formula
One's finished, that part of my life's gone.
So it would be a gradual taper done.
In saying that, it doesn't mean it's anything less.
I wouldn't have taken it any less professionally than I did
in my Formula One career, but I would have been happy to do it.
I would have thought it would have been a great certainly in
terms of your UK profile and presence would have been
fantastic, yeah. And then that's again like what
you said, I've described that drivers around the world coming
from different disciplines, the money that was involved for the
manufacturers and that's why the Super Touring era was the Super
Touring era. It's never been done since, and
it will never be done again. I mean, I don't know, just
listening to what you said, I think you're probably right.
I think that to to see where we are in 2024 to go back to. 1989
nineteen. Whatever, I don't see that
happening. TCR Is it TCR?
Yeah. Yeah, or World Touring Cars.
I mean, I remember World Touring cars way back in the 70s and 80s
when that was something was, you know?
Today, is that motor racing? Is that a world championship?
Is that where they were? And I don't want.
I know that there are some very good drivers and ONE World
Championships. Rob Huff Fantastic race driver,
but 20 lap races for a world championship anyway.
Listen, that'll cause a few ripples.
Don, just finally from me, we've talked about the Mansell race
before in 98, which I Remember Me saying on the season review
video with Charlie was, you know, one of the best races
you've ever seen, let alone have the chance to comment later on.
Where do you rank that and what are some of your most memorable
TV moments? Oh yeah, God.
Yeah, there must be so many. Well, there probably are.
I mean, I should have done a bit more research on all this.
I I I think that, you know going into touring Cars 9898 was a new
discipline, a new arena and ingratiating myself, that's what
I'm going to say into that championship and not looking for
my shoulder. I'm doing a touring car comedy
and I'm watching the Grand Prix on another TV in the corner.
In fact that what I was doing was what I wanted to do at that
time. And I I I felt very fortunate,
very, very privileged to have the opportunity to for the three
or so years that I did it with Charlie and we made a
contribution. I think it was a there was a
healthy and days possibly of touring cars.
You've said that amongst yourselves.
So I mean, I don't know whether we'll ever see those days
return, you know, never say never in this world.
I mean, I don't know what's going to happen and Alan
Garvey's been around for a long time.
If Alan stays in control for another 10 years, or maybe he
won't, I don't know what Alan's. It's up to Alan really.
He is an answer of of what's going to happen in British
Touring cars. Yeah, he he certainly he was the
Bernie of the of the touring cars at the time, wasn't he?
The way he put the deals together.
Yeah, the ringmaster. Yeah, absolutely.
The ringmaster, you know, smart man, smart man.
I mean, I'm having to deal with all the egos.
You know, there's a lot of egos in the paddock and any former
motorsport Eagles and he was able to handle it all.
And but Bernie would have called Allen, got he's a good operator,
gets the job done. He gets the job done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because.
Alan stood. No shit off anybody I've been in
the back of that Toker bus for. Yeah, and they were, they were
in front of, there were some big.
Names His toy. His toy.
Remember that? This toy.
Yeah, yeah. There were some big names to
deal with at the time as well because you had Tom Wilkinshaw
at Volvo, you had Frank and Patrick, Frank and Patrick at
Williams. You know, you had Dave Richards
at Pro Drive. There were some big egos there
too, These. Guys, these guys are serious
guys, yeah. That would have been more
difficult to deal with than the drivers.
The amount of. Cash that was flowing over along
with the protests, you know, so to to you've been disqualified
or penalized. And straight away, TDM will be
down there. The team manager will be down
there. But there's bundles of notes.
Look, those guys are serious players.
Yeah, no mistake. Every one of them is a serious
every duty player. Well, I think we're going to
wrap it up there, John for today, so.
I've only done it in hours broadcasting.
Already. And I just like.
Warming you up for your next one.
Warming you up. I'd just like to say, John,
thank you so much for spending some of your valuable time with
us today on Stories From Super Touring.
Not at all. And this is the unexplicated
version. In other words, this is the
warts and all. One, be my guest.
Thanks. Thanks John.
It's been great. Thanks, John.
Meanwhile, we'll be back next week to look at the inaugural
BTCC Night Race that was held at Snetterton in 1999.
And for that we'll be joined by motorsport journalists Andrew
Chairman and Andrew Golby. Until then, we'll see you next
week. Goodbye.