1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:17,160
Stories from Super Touring. 
Hello and welcome to this week's

2
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,200
episode of Stories From Super 
Touring. 

3
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,520
Now this week, we're joined by 
someone who brought the British 

4
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,640
Touring Car Championship into 
our homes during the Super 

5
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,320
Touring era. 
It's former racing driver and 

6
00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,040
current broadcaster John Watson.
John, thank you so much for 

7
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,800
joining us on the show today. 
Welcome to Stories From Super 

8
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,040
Touring. 
How are you doing? 

9
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:37,520
Well, first of all, thank you 
very much. 

10
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,840
I'm doing reasonably well 
actually. 

11
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,760
All the stuff that we're talking
about off camera, that was the 

12
00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,240
best stuff, I have to tell you, 
but we. 

13
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,280
Could talk about it again. 
That's not a problem. 

14
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,480
There, there, there. 
There's so much, so much about 

15
00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:55,480
British Touring cars. 
My memory of going back when 

16
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:56,760
you're you've already even 
thought of you. 

17
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,680
But I mean, probably your dad's 
weren't even born. 

18
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,200
But going back even to the 50s 
and 60s, seventies, 80s, 

19
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,200
whatever, whatever. 
Then my oh, what sort of breed 

20
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:05,800
is your dog? 
He's. 

21
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,120
A. 
He's a cross between Jack 

22
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,200
Russell and. 
Staffie, wonderful. 

23
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,680
But we're the Stafford, the bull
terrier in my family when I was 

24
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,480
a kid growing up. 
And they are a wonderful dog. 

25
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,160
Don't let anybody tell you 
sappies are not great dogs. 

26
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:21,920
Oh no. 
He's he's wonderful. 

27
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,520
He's beautiful. 
Anyway, sorry, getting back to 

28
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,760
the subject, I I came into 
touring cars I think at one of 

29
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:34,560
its Zenith periods and you had 
what, 1011 or 12 manufacturers? 

30
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,560
All competing in the beauty of 
what I think at that time was 

31
00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,520
that there was a great deal of 
individuality between a Nissan 

32
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,920
or Renault or Ford or Vauxhall, 
whatever else was running, 

33
00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,360
because you could identify them.
And the. 

34
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,120
Engineering was individual as 
well. 

35
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,360
I think about when Williams took
over the running of the Renault 

36
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,520
of the Renault Lagunas, I mean 
they made big strides in terms 

37
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,600
of the technology that they put 
into that car, principally the 

38
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,280
way that they looked at the car 
and said, well, we don't know to

39
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,360
think about touring cars in 
touring car terms. 

40
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,200
Do you think about racing a 
touring car with our expertise 

41
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,080
as racing in Formula One or 
whatever we're doing? 

42
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,200
And simply one of the things 
they did was. 

43
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,560
They shuffled the engine, 
gearbox package back almost into

44
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,760
the car's cockpit to get a 
better weight distribution. 

45
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,480
The centre of gravity, all the 
things that they know make a 

46
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,680
racing car competitive and 
eventually everybody had to 

47
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,320
follow. 
Suit Walker showed the same as 

48
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,960
the Volvos, Nissan, and 
particularly Nissan. 

49
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,680
They went almost even further. 
I mean, I think the engine was 

50
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,720
almost that far back. 
The drivers were sitting in the 

51
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,800
backseat. 
Let alone, and I don't see that 

52
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,840
today so much because everything
is too prescribed by regulations

53
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,440
and I know that regulations are 
their partly because. 

54
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,400
They've got to. 
Control these things, but 

55
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,640
ultimately it's all about 
controlling costs and if you 

56
00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:58,240
don't control costs then 
everything is a runaway train 

57
00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,880
and it'll be those teams have 
got the biggest budgets, that 

58
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,800
will be the teams that will 
dominate and I think having a 

59
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,000
serious and British. 
During cars, for example, right 

60
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000
now is not about a brand 
dominating, it's about 

61
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,200
entertaining the public. 
And motorsport today is about 

62
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,240
entertainment. 
The the element of the sporting 

63
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:17,840
element of it is a secondary 
issue. 

64
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,240
If you want to put a a show a 
show on television or invite 

65
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,440
people to come to a racetrack to
watch 30 odd cars or whatever it

66
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,520
is these days running in a 
touring car around they. 

67
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,360
Need to be entertained. 
Now they'll have their heroes 

68
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,880
and they'll follow their brands,
but they want to be entertained 

69
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,360
and that's ultimately where 
motorsport today is. 

70
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,440
It's an entertainment, maybe 
more than motorsport, as I would

71
00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,680
think about it. 
You're coming from the The Dark 

72
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,000
Ages. 
So obviously this podcast is 

73
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,520
called Story from Super Touring,
so we are going to be focusing 

74
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,360
on that era of touring car 
racing and the influence you had

75
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,160
on it is 1/2 of the broadcast in
Durham for the BBC alongside 

76
00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,200
Charlie Cox. 
But I think we we we think it 

77
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,920
would be rude of us not to 
discuss your outstanding racing 

78
00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,040
career, which obviously speaks 
for itself. 154 Grand Prix, 20 

79
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,400
podium finishes, 5 victories and
narrowly missing out on the 1982

80
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,480
title, you left quite a mark on 
racing yourself. 

81
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,839
Well, listen, my last. 
Grand Prix was effectively in 

82
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:24,280
1983, but I did a 1/2 race in 85
because my esteemed former 

83
00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:28,520
teammate Niki Lauda had tripped 
over a straw. 

84
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,840
And a hen kicked him. 
That's an that's the Northern 

85
00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,560
Ireland expression. 
By the way, and he couldn't take

86
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,480
part in the European Grand Prix 
at Brands Hatch in 85. 

87
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,200
And Ron Dennis kindly invited me
to sit down to Nikki's car. 

88
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,320
And I that was my final Grand 
Prix in 1985, but up until up 

89
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,840
until 83 that was. 
I did 151 Grand Prix and then 

90
00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,960
she's 152 in total. 
So it's a long time ago. 

91
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,360
And again, if you look back, I 
look back in the cars racing at 

92
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,280
that particular time and I look 
at her current Formula One car, 

93
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,160
current Formula One cars, ugly. 
They're fatty, they're 

94
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,080
overweight and that's what the 
only thing in the world you can 

95
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,040
say today is ugly, fat and 
overweight. 

96
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,200
There's a racing car because you
can't tell them. 

97
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,880
You can't describe a person 
saying fat and overweight and 

98
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,480
ugly in this world we're living 
in. 

99
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,120
What a sad world we're living 
in. 

100
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,160
And it's very true. 
Talking about the cars of the 

101
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,960
era, John, you do hold the 
notable distinction of winning 

102
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,880
the first Grand Prix for a 
carbon fibre monocoque car when 

103
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,000
you took the the McLaren MP4 
onto a home victory at the 

104
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,040
British Grand Prix. 
That must have been a very 

105
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,720
special day for you in 1981. 
It was a very, very important 

106
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,160
day and it was a very special 
day also. 

107
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,440
But I think the reason why it 
was very special, it's not so 

108
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,160
much because it was history 
being made. 

109
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:46,880
It was a very important day for 
McLaren. 

110
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,360
It was a very emotional day for 
my family who were present on 

111
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,160
that day. 
There are. 

112
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,400
There are certain races that 
occur through history where 

113
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,200
there seems to be an. 
Emotional, compound or component

114
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,520
involved and I know that in 
latter days Nigel Mansell are 

115
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,920
one of our world champions, 
particularly when he's racing at

116
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,080
Silverstone, British Grand Prix 
would say. 

117
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,000
He felt he he gained a second 
lap because what he called 

118
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,520
people power. 
Well, I think on that particular

119
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,120
day in 1981, maybe I was the 
prototype for people power 

120
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,440
because the way the race 
unfolded in the number of 

121
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,120
incidents, I'll not go into the 
ball because take too long, but 

122
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,080
I found myself in the lead of 
the race. 

123
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920
And when that arose and that 
occurred, I was aware that 

124
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,800
around the racetrack there was a
very sudden but very, I mean 

125
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:38,880
almost I. 
Can't. 

126
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,880
I'm feeling the shivers in the 
back of my neck. 

127
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,360
I could see people standing up 
and cheering, and I could almost

128
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,080
hear the chairs because the 
reality was they were going to 

129
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,680
see a victory which they 
probably thought was an 

130
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,360
unexpected victory on that day. 
And they embraced it and they 

131
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,520
embraced me and they embraced 
the whole day. 

132
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,480
I remember it was a Saturday 
Grand Prix at Silverstone as we 

133
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,920
and Silverstone didn't race on 
Sundays until the late 80s. 

134
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,720
And I think the victory on that 
day was actually the public that

135
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,120
were there because they had a 
day which they. 

136
00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,480
Remember, and I'm very fortunate
even now, I'll go somewhere, 

137
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,200
maybe it might be a supermarket,
it might be an airport, maybe 

138
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,440
filling up with fuel and a fuel 
and somebody will turn around 

139
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,560
and say. 
I know who, I know you. 

140
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,120
And then we go through this ring
and yes, and they said, well, I 

141
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,960
was there and I said, well, you 
must have been a child because 

142
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,080
most of the people have said 
about 40 years younger than I 

143
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,040
am. 
So, but I think I'm very 

144
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,160
privileged to have had the 
opportunity to win a British 

145
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,960
Grand Prix and I think the. 
Interaction between what I saw 

146
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,520
following the raid, when the 
race finished and then it did a 

147
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,080
lap of honour and the whole 
atmosphere and it was just a 

148
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,840
wonderful sense of joy. 
I think joy is the word best 

149
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,520
sums up the day. 
Everybody was happy with the 

150
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,080
outcome and I was happy McLaren 
were over the moon and the 

151
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,000
people that backed McLaren were 
over the moon because it 

152
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,600
supported their judgement and. 
Having the McLaren, the carbon 

153
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,640
fibre chassis technology, my 
brother, father and sister were 

154
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,160
in the grandstand. 
They watched it. 

155
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,040
And it was just all round of 
joyous day. 

156
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,400
Good. 
Well, you, you went down in 

157
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,680
history there, John, by just 
that achievement alone, so that 

158
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,640
in itself can never be taken 
away. 

159
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,560
So that's a massive achievement.
Well done to you. 

160
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,080
Thank you. 
So I know you've just, you know,

161
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,720
alluded on it earlier in your 
final year of F1 in 1983, you 

162
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,320
beat your team mate, the famous 
great Niki Lauda, and scored the

163
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,080
only win for the team that year.
But you'd have to sport. 

164
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,760
It appears rather at a bit of an
abrupt end for sure. 

165
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,880
OK. 
I mean the. 

166
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,040
Unlike my my illustrious, now I 
have to say regrettably late 

167
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,000
teammate who tells a different 
story. 

168
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,080
But he got the story wrong 
fundamentally. 

169
00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,320
In 83 I was on a one year 
contract and as the year 

170
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,760
progressed I won Long Beach and 
that was only raised by town one

171
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,160
that year as we got to the end 
of the year in South Africa. 

172
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,080
Again, a Saturday Grand Prix on 
the way. 

173
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,400
Back, one of the officers of 
Philip Morris Marlborough, who 

174
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,360
were the sponsors of the team, 
said. 

175
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,400
I suppose you're going to have 
to ask you to. 

176
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,800
Continue next year, aren't we? 
I said. 

177
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,160
Yeah, well, let's do it now. 
So I got back into the UK on 

178
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,240
this Sunday. 
On the Monday I got a call from 

179
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,600
Nikki. 
They said be careful, Be aware 

180
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,480
that Alan Frost is looking to 
take your seat. 

181
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,920
Your car, your drive. 
I don't know why, What's up? 

182
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,440
And apparently what had occurred
was that there had something 

183
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:51,640
that occurred in the Renault 
team in 83 and it culminated on 

184
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,160
the the Sunday following the 
Grand Prix. 

185
00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,320
Another Alan, flew back on 
Saturday night as well to Paris.

186
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,160
He was summoned to Renault 
Renault headquarters in Paris 

187
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,520
and having not won the World 
championship. 

188
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,880
And he should have won the world
championship, actually. 

189
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,880
But reliability issues were the 
reasons why he didn't He or he 

190
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,160
was the worthy world champion. 
PK won it, but actually Allen 

191
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,200
was the worthy world champion 
and he was summer summarily 

192
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,800
fired by the Rezi, the Renault 
company. 

193
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,400
And I mean. 
Knock, knock you over with a 

194
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,680
feather. 
I mean, Allen just. 

195
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,840
I mean, he didn't know what to 
say, he didn't know what to do. 

196
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,400
But his first reaction was 
through to. 

197
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,320
Go to Philip Morris, 
Marlborough, because he'd he'd 

198
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,880
driven with me, with me and 
McLaren in 1980. 

199
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,200
So he thought there's an 
opportunity possibly at Ferrari 

200
00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,880
he wanted to go to a 
manufacturing team. 

201
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,760
He. 
Wanted to go to a team that was 

202
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,040
a turbo engine team, which was 
Ferrari was at that time and 

203
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,000
phoned up John Hogan who was the
first person he would speak to 

204
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,840
and said, listen, I've been 
fired and after about half an 

205
00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,800
hour the shock sort of 
dissipated and the response was,

206
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,080
well look, sorry Allah, the 
Ferrari seats are occupied, 

207
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,400
don't we have a seat at McLaren?
And Allan said, well, hold on a 

208
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,720
second, you've got Nikki and 
John. 

209
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,120
And the response that came back 
was? 

210
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,600
Nikki's under contract, John is 
out of contract. 

211
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,720
We would like to talk to you 
about new driving for us in 

212
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,960
1984. 
And frankly, it was a slam dunk.

213
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,520
And the reason I say that is 
simply because. 

214
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,040
I was at that stage 37 and 
Nikki, I think was 35. 

215
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,560
So 3435, I mean, Nikki had 
already retired once from 

216
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:41,960
Brabham on a whim and Claren 
didn't want to find themselves 

217
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,320
in a situation where they had 
two drivers and, you know, 2 

218
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,920
senior drivers who at any point 
could decide to do a runway and 

219
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,640
leave McLaren and Marlborough in
a lurch. 

220
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,280
So here's a gift horse. 
They didn't need to look at him 

221
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,040
twice in the mouth to say John 
is out of contract. 

222
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,520
Say thank you, John, for all 
you've done for the team, but 

223
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,600
we're going to go on that line 
for us, which is what happened. 

224
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,040
Was that a regrettable way to 
end your career, John? 

225
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,440
It was. 
It was regrettable because for 

226
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,840
me it was a decision. 
That wasn't my decision. 

227
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,600
It was it was a corporate 
decision, A-Team decision. 

228
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,400
Look, if I'd been in the 
situation that Marlborough and 

229
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,040
McLaren were in at the same 
time, I'd have done the same 

230
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,240
thing. 
It was the logical and rational 

231
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,760
thing to do because teams are 
going to look after their own 

232
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,480
interests. 
Not look after my interest or 

233
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:30,920
even look after Nikki's 
interest. 

234
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:32,840
They have to look after their 
own interests. 

235
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:36,680
So that was the decision that 
was made and with great, you 

236
00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,680
know, regret because obviously 
in 84 that McLaren was the card 

237
00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,840
to be in and 84 the 
championship. 

238
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,880
Who won the championship lady 
for? 

239
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,320
By half a point. 
No, that's right. 

240
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,000
To do by half a point and as a 
consequence of that half a 

241
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,600
point, victory. 
Nikki had a. 

242
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,160
Two year contract for 8384. 
That then obliged the team to 

243
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,560
retain them for 85. 
I have been told, and I know 

244
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:06,840
that other people may oh, you 
know, I'm the person that makes 

245
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,280
the decisions in the team, not 
our sponsors. 

246
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,680
But actually it would have been 
interesting. 

247
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,240
Nikki had not won the 
championship and Ally, for 

248
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,200
example, had won it. 
I don't know whether Nikki would

249
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,400
have been in McLaren in 1985 or 
not. 

250
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,080
Or would McLaren have gone out 
and tried to secure the services

251
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,640
as they had done at the end of 
83? 

252
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,480
Of a young Brazilian driver 
called Ayerton Senna, Senna 

253
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,080
turned down the chance to drive 
in McLaren in 80. 

254
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,120
Four, because he felt it was too
much or too soon. 

255
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,960
But I'll tell you what, if he 
had the opportunity in 85 as 

256
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,160
opposed to? 
Where he ended. 

257
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,120
Up going to which is John Claire
Team Notice. 

258
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,800
Yes, but then you can't rewrite 
history. 

259
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,960
I'll do my best. 
I will give you all the scuttle,

260
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,880
but but then anyway, well. 
At least we now know they'll be 

261
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:57,160
now. 
Now. 

262
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,600
That's my version, but nothing. 
It is an honest and accurate 

263
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:08,360
version. 
For this series of stories from 

264
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,080
Super Touring, we are delighted 
to be teaming up with Brands 

265
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,960
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 
Super Touring Power 2, which is 

266
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,680
being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 

267
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,640
2024. 
The award nominated event was a 

268
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,400
smash hit last year when it's 
debut edition transported fans 

269
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,480
back to the 90s and this year's 
event will once again celebrate 

270
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,680
one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. 

271
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,200
To enter the competition, just 
answer the following question. 

272
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,640
Who was the first ever guest to 
star on Stories From Super 

273
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,120
Touring? 
Send your answers to Pod at 

274
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,760
1990s btcc.com and we'll 
announce the winner on a later 

275
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,800
episode this series. 
Meanwhile, let's get back to the

276
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:59,560
episode. 
Moving on from when you when you

277
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:04,040
did leave F1, you then spent 
some years in sports cars and 

278
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,360
had a very competitive year with
Jaguar in 1987, narrowly missing

279
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,400
out on the World Sports Car 
Championship. 

280
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,280
Was that a good time in your 
career? 

281
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,280
Exciting time. 
I enjoyed Group C and at the end

282
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,240
of 83, what am I going to do for
the rest of my life? 

283
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:20,520
I. 
Don't know why. 

284
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,320
Only an income. 
And it's a horrible thought 

285
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,560
because all of a sudden you know
they living in this sort of 

286
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,640
gilded world of Formula One that
the reality of no longer being 

287
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,720
wrongly driver is a pretty 
horrifying thought. 

288
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,760
But because I had association 
with Porsche through the Tiger 

289
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,800
Turbo motor and then Rothman, 
who were the sponsors of the 

290
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,320
Porsche team at that time, I was
invited to take part in a test 

291
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,360
at Puerto Rico. 
And then I got my first race 

292
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,440
with the team and they ran on 
the third car in the Spa 1000 

293
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,880
kilometres with Fern Shoupon. 
But later that year I then had 

294
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,560
the opportunity to drive in the 
Fuji 1000 kilometres, which is 

295
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,520
the final round of the Group C 
World Championship. 

296
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,880
The car I was going to drive or 
the car I did drive was the car 

297
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,280
that was shared by Derek Bell 
and Stefan Bellock. 

298
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680
But Derek because of the way the
drivers are being lit up, I 

299
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,200
think over Lamor or whatever. 
Derek couldn't win the drivers 

300
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,920
championship in Group C but he 
was in with a pop to win the 

301
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,400
championship in America of the 
instant championship. 

302
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,040
So Porsche, said Derek. 
Off to North America I got the 

303
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,160
call would I like to drive in 
the 1000 kilometers in the Fuji 

304
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,640
with with Stefan Bellock? 
Delighted over the moon. 

305
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,200
So I went out to Japan and the 
there's a slight problem because

306
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,640
Jochen Mass was the other driver
who could win that Group C World

307
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,720
championship. 
Jochen and I have been friends 

308
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,960
for many, many years. 
I didn't know Stefan. 

309
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,880
I was certainly very aware of 
him, but I didn't know him. 

310
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,280
And in fact going up to the 
raise up to the circuit on the 

311
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,600
whatever Thursday, Jochen and I 
drove up and he said, come on 

312
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,280
John, you're our mate let's give
me a hand. 

313
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,160
Would you help me win the world 
championship? 

314
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,240
Let's Jochen. 
I'm here to help you. 

315
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,599
I'm here to help Stefan. 
I can't do that. 

316
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,160
And as it turned out, Stefan and
I, or sorry Stefan won the race 

317
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,240
and I helped him. 
I could drove with him. 

318
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,079
Stefan Bell off was one of the 
most remarkable, wonderful, 

319
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,079
delightful, sweet race drivers 
you'll ever meet in your life. 

320
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,280
And it was. 
Tragic, Tragic that he lost his 

321
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,720
life in Spa in 85 S Anyway, I 
then went forward and drove him,

322
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,400
Sir. 
For McLaren BMW of 1986, which 

323
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,240
was I enjoyed Thuric racing in 
Northern America. 

324
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,000
Fantastic race tracks, great 
racing and I love America. 

325
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,920
I love going to America. 
And I mean I do that in a time. 

326
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,120
I'd go back to Isla Morada, part
of the Florida East. 

327
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,240
Right now this is the beginning 
of the Tarpon season. 

328
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,640
Now I can hear from your silence
clue what I'm talking about. 

329
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:05,280
Tarpon is Tarpon is one of the 
most amazing fish in that area. 

330
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,280
Whatever. 
I hooked up one many years ago, 

331
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,320
I thought I'd got a Mack truck 
at the end of my line. 

332
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,280
These things are just 
outrageous. 

333
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,520
Anyway, I'm diverting North 
America's great. 

334
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,600
Going to race for Jaguar, Tom 
Walker Show ran a fantastic 

335
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,120
team. 
The X-ray Sevens and eight X-ray

336
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,480
Sevens and Eights way, way ahead
of technology in terms of 

337
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,480
chassis design, chassis 
stiffness, aerodynamics. 

338
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,680
Porsche still had the best 
little more car in 87 and 88. 

339
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,600
Jaguar made a big change and 
they won the race and there was 

340
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,440
a very, very tight race at the 
very finish. 

341
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,880
But the technology between what 
Jaguar had with AV12 basic 

342
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,400
production engine and the 
Porsche Print Turbo flat 6, the 

343
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,680
flat 6 engine turbochargers, the
better engine. 

344
00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,040
The Jaguar was a tall, narrow 
engine which allowed better 

345
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,120
aerodynamics under the car that 
you know, the the tunnels under 

346
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,760
the car. 
Both teams ran at a very, very 

347
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,600
high level and both teams 
achieved great success. 

348
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,360
And I was fortunate enough to be
able to drive on both teams 

349
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,800
through my, what I call the 
tapering of period of my 

350
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,760
professional racing career. 
And that's what I did when 

351
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,280
Formula One left me. 
Then I was able to go into Group

352
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,920
C and it was a way of just 
gradually easing down to a point

353
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,360
when it was like it came to a 
natural conclusion that when you

354
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,960
get to 40 or 41 or whatever, 
people aren't going to rush up 

355
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,480
and sign you up on the contract 
because they think you're too 

356
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,320
old. 
And they're looking for younger 

357
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,320
drivers who are going to be a 
little bit more, let's say, 

358
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,520
aggressive or however you want 
to describe the younger driver. 

359
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,320
So John, once it did come to its
natural conclusion, the second 

360
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,880
career, the broadcasting career 
began. 

361
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,400
And we saw you with people like 
Andrew Barrier, Richard Nichols,

362
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,400
I remember Allied Car, Ben 
Edwards, of course, legendary 

363
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,200
partnership of Watty and Edward.
How did it all start? 

364
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,680
Did you sort of slot into it 
like some drivers or did you 

365
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,600
have a clear plan, sort of David
Coulthard, I'll get into TV one 

366
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:04,880
day. 
Oh damn. 

367
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:10,720
It. 
What does that mean? 

368
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,520
Well, it was sort of. 
It was circumstantial because 

369
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:21,280
back end of the 80s, BBC Radio 2
live were covering Formula One. 

370
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,440
Simon Taylor was the lead 
commentator and I got an 

371
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,040
invitation to come along and and
contribute to some of the Grand 

372
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,880
Prix and that was the beginning 
of a radio. 

373
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:37,640
And then at the back end of I 
think 1989, Sky were doing 

374
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,680
occasional coverage. 
Oh, there's occasional coverage 

375
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,840
on Sky with Andrew Marriott. 
And then we had a full year in 

376
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,200
1990, Andrew and myself and 
other people, and it was just, I

377
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,840
loved it and what it was, was a 
natural extension of being a 

378
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,120
Formula One driver or a Group C 
driver. 

379
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,280
And I got all the buzz and all 
the excitement, the adrenaline I

380
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,320
still do when I go to an event 
today. 

381
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:06,080
And it enabled me to find an 
outlet which was still involving

382
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,000
me in motorsport. 
And I love it. 

383
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,080
I mean, I just can't wait a 
minute. 

384
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:11,840
In a couple of weeks, 3 weeks 
time. 

385
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,040
I'm off to Paul Ricard for the 
first round of the Fanatic GT 

386
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,040
Europe World Challenge. 3 Hour 
Race David Anderson's lead 

387
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,840
commentator. 
It's just it's I can't give it 

388
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,520
up. 
And apparently it's I'm still, 

389
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,960
believe it or not, quite a 
competitive person. 

390
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,960
I don't. 
Think that will never that will 

391
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,080
never leave you that. 
Will never. 

392
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,520
It doesn't. 
Then it's again, it's an outlet 

393
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:39,880
which gives me a thorough 
enjoyment, fulfilment, but I 

394
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,120
can't think of another 
profession that I could have a 

395
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,000
role in that. 
Gives me as much joy. 

396
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,560
And satisfaction. 
They're sitting down behind the 

397
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,840
microphone and working with 
David David as a fantastic 

398
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,520
commentator. 
He is the mastermind of 

399
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,520
motorsport. 
I mean, he is almost icon of a 

400
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,120
freak because. 
He. 

401
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,640
Don't remember he can rip every 
car. 

402
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,160
You know if you go to Spa 24 
hours, we're going about 65 

403
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,320
entrance of which there must be 
about 200 drivers. 

404
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,000
He will tell you every driver 
inside leg measurement when they

405
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,240
were born, what they've done. 
Good guy, bad guy, whatever. 

406
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,000
Unbelievable. 
And the pair of us sit there and

407
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,880
we bang it up, we knock it out 
and whether it's a 24 hour race,

408
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,200
it's far 9 hours Kalami or 
whatever, it's just energy 

409
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,080
driven, adrenaline driven. 
And I I just love it. 

410
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,920
I just love it. 
Cast your mind back, if not not 

411
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,080
quite as far as what we've spoke
about already. 

412
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,840
But in 1990 I remember you 
tested the first ever Jordan GP 

413
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,720
car. 
That must have been quite an 

414
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,520
experience for you compared to 
all the experience you'd have up

415
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,640
to the previous years with 
McLaren in Formula One. 

416
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760
So how how was that for you in 
1990 testing that card Well? 

417
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,000
I mean, it was an interesting 
opportunity because. 

418
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,480
Eddie Jordan Diddly I died 
diddly. 

419
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,320
Well, I'm keys to work here as 
I. 

420
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,160
Tell you but. 
We all love them. 

421
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,440
We all love them. 
Anyway. 

422
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,240
Eddie because I was working in 
Silverston at the time and. 

423
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,440
You're under the. 
Greasy spoon at Silverstone 

424
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,760
every lunchtime And Eddie would 
say, oh, would you join the car?

425
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,640
You know, the car I want to. 
And the reason he asked me is 

426
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,480
because he didn't want to put in
a young, particular, a young 

427
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,400
driver who might come along with
a few quid and say I'll I'll 

428
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,920
drive here next year. 
So I was sitting around doing 

429
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,320
nothing and I was still young 
enough at the time and had 

430
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,720
enough expertise. 
But I think the real reason was 

431
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,160
I was probably a safe pair of 
hands. 

432
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,240
I wasn't going to Chuck off the 
wall. 

433
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,560
And I thought, well, I'll do it 
because I'm now involved in 

434
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,200
broadcasting. 
Driving a car which will be a 

435
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,840
contemporary Formula One car, 
will give me an insight into 

436
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,880
what these cars feel like. 
Because that's what, 7-8 years 

437
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,040
down the road from when I was 
racing permanently and drove the

438
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,880
car at Silverstone for the first
time, designed by Gary Anderson.

439
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,880
And I drove the car, I didn't 
know what to explain. 

440
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,520
I didn't know it was going to be
a basket case, was going to be 

441
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,080
an absolutely star car and it 
was unquestionably a star car. 

442
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,880
What Gary did and the team that 
that small team based up at 

443
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,240
Silverstone in Eddie's workshops
produced a car which I think 

444
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,440
still is one of the iconic Grand
Prix cars of. 

445
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,400
History. 
Yeah, the 191 is beautiful. 

446
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,120
Yeah, and it just had, it had a 
it had a super little chassis, 

447
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,040
it had a Ford engine and a 
little colours with whatever the

448
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,400
HP or whatever the designation 
was. 

449
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,960
It just was a lovely car. 
And then when they ended it up, 

450
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,600
then that iconic green, Fuji and
whatever other colours were 

451
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,840
wrong. 
You got it. 

452
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,000
It was just a lovely car and I 
drove it at a Silverstone 

453
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,160
initially and I came out of 
that, got all of the cars. 

454
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,920
I think it's OK. 
I think it's all right. 

455
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,600
You know, didn't do anything 
bad. 

456
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,520
It was user friendly. 
So EJ thought, well, I have a 

457
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,680
bit more of this and it's all 
Eddie, It was all free. 

458
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,320
You never paid. 
You never paid in your life. 

459
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,600
He would have expected me to pay
anyway. 

460
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,040
I did it as a favour. 
Because we're both from the same

461
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,560
Isle and same country. 
So I did it as a favour to a 

462
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,320
friend and anyway it was went 
down to Pembury, had a couple of

463
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,520
days done at Pembury, did an 
extended test and just did a bit

464
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,320
more running in the car, got 
better and better and better. 

465
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,920
At which point then thank you 
very much, John and Andrea. 

466
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,280
The Chesteris came along and 
back from Gash and they became 

467
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,880
the two. 
Regular drivers. 

468
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,200
But the driver that really made 
the Jordan team was actually a 

469
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,320
Michael Schumacher. 
When Michael had the chance to 

470
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,520
drive and Eddie, it was not a 
free drive. 

471
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,320
You got paid by Jochen Airpash. 
I know the sum of money it was 

472
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,000
you got a lot of money. 
And then when you tried to get 

473
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,760
him to Drew the race at Monza, 
you lost out. 

474
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,000
But those are those are the 
stories that we'd never hear 

475
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:51,640
from EJ. 
Oh no. 

476
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,440
No, no, he never tells that 
Busy. 

477
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,120
So you you you spent some time 
with Eurosport covering the F1 

478
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,080
and as as Greg said there, I I 
particularly enjoyed your work 

479
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,880
with Alard Kalf and Ben Edwards.
But it was in 1998 where you 

480
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,920
started covering the BTCC that 
was your first season. 

481
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,400
How did it all come about? 
I think it was a little bit. 

482
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,960
Of Mark Wilkin, who was at BBC 
at that time. 

483
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,920
He was the director of the of 
the Touring Cars BBC. 

484
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,000
We're looking to develop the 
programme. 

485
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,520
I was not doing anything at that
stage. 

486
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,320
Formula One had concluded at the
end of 96 when Eurosport last 

487
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,840
night ITV came in. 
So I was hanging around a little

488
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,360
bit and I was offered the 
opportunity and I thought well 

489
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,320
it's a domestic championship, 
might be very good to be 

490
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,880
associated with it and I thought
why not. 

491
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:53,160
So we did a little bit of a a 
pre run up at the BBC and 

492
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,200
Charlie and I did different 
roles. 

493
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,600
He did the expert. 
Now that the commentator, he 

494
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,120
then reversed the round and 
decided that Charlie would make 

495
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:03,320
the better lead commentator and 
I'd make the better expert. 

496
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,200
And that's basically how it how 
it unfolded and started. 

497
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,320
So it was again a different 
championship. 

498
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,520
I didn't know a huge amount 
about touring cards or the 

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,520
competitors but you know Charlie
is a pretty impressive guy. 

500
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,760
He's an ounces. 
Or nosy, but with a very, very 

501
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560
good turn of speech. 
The only thing he didn't have 

502
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,680
was one of my favorite 
Australians is a guy called Rex 

503
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,520
Hunt. 
And Rex Hunt had these fishing 

504
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,040
programs which were shown in the
UK, and one of his favorite 

505
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,760
expressions was you couldn't 
blow a dog off a Chinese. 

506
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,960
Now Charlie had lots of other 
expressions. 

507
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,880
He didn't. 
Know that that was my favorite. 

508
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,600
You couldn't blow a dog off a 
chain. 

509
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,200
I've been working with Charlie 
was certainly it was a different

510
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,120
experience than let's say Ben or
Allard or Andrew Merritt. 

511
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,520
But I think it it it gave again 
an audience sort of, wow, what 

512
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,760
are they going to come up with 
next? 

513
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,840
What's John going to say next? 
What's Charlie going to say? 

514
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,880
I mean, it was, it was on one 
occasion, it got a bit feisty in

515
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,400
the commentary booth. 
Really. 

516
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,240
Oh yeah, occasionally. 
It doesn't happen very often, 

517
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,880
but it's on one occasion and 
there's a little bit of sort of 

518
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,360
toe to toe, eyeball to eyeball 
and it. 

519
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:21,360
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 
absolutely. 

520
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:22,680
Charlie, I'll tell you if you 
ask him. 

521
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,280
But, you know, it calmed down 
because emotions get high. 

522
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,160
You're when you're involved and 
your passions are flowing, the 

523
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,800
juices are running and you're 
into their thing and you're on A

524
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,480
roll and you're and Matt Neil's 
coming. 

525
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,120
This is OK. 
And he's just overtaken. 

526
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,160
Don't do that again. 
That's my rule. 

527
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,720
Sorry, Charlie. 
Right. 

528
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,960
Anyway, anyway, listen, I 
propose them for membership. 

529
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,320
The BRDC. 
We got over it all, but it's 

530
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,280
all, it's competitive in the 
commentary booth because 

531
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,880
everybody wants to have the 
microphone, everybody wants to 

532
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,960
have the opportunity to continue
or to contribute to what's going

533
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,440
on. 
So it's competitive. 

534
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,120
Yeah. 
It's a bit a damn sight easy if 

535
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,240
you're in it on your own in 
there by the sounds of it. 

536
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,840
I. 
Say single commentaries never 

537
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,240
work because you need the 
balance of two people. 

538
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,080
And if you've got two 
competitive people together and 

539
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,920
he's just trying to, you know, 
pull them. 

540
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,560
I mean, even I think going back 
to the health and days of Murray

541
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,720
Walker and James Hunt, Murray 
was the. 

542
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,680
Consummate, motorsport 
commentator, professional in 

543
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,840
everything he did, James does, 
laying back I. 

544
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Don't think I think I had 
similar issues. 

545
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,280
I don't think I got on to start 
off with, did they? 

546
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,160
So, so, so they were made to 
share a microphone, weren't 

547
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,840
they? 
At the end, they were given a 

548
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,600
single mind because the the 
producer again, Mark Wilkin, 

549
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,960
realized that if they had two 
mics, they'd have two, two 

550
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,160
commentators constantly talking 
over one another. 

551
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,800
That's awful broadcasting. 
So they had one microphone, and 

552
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,280
on occasion James is trying to 
wrestle at my. 

553
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,880
John, was there any sense of 
that responsibility taking over 

554
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,680
from Murray as you did in 98? 
You know, the man was a legend, 

555
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,320
wasn't he? 
Murray was a legend, 

556
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,640
undoubtedly. 
I mean, the part of the legend 

557
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,520
was the boys. 
But the man himself, the man, he

558
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,840
was just a lovely, lovely man 
and utterly and totally 

559
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,040
professional in every part of 
what he did. 

560
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,320
I mean the the preparation he 
did, his notes, his script 

561
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,920
notes. 
I mean, it's all in tiny 

562
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,320
writing. 
Nobody could read it except 

563
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,640
Mary. 
And I mean, he could have talked

564
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,840
to the Cars come home. 
Maybe you could do a single 

565
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,760
commentary. 
No problem whatsoever. 

566
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,720
The danger of a single 
commentary, a single person 

567
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,000
doing a commentary is it's a bit
like, eventually, wallpaper. 

568
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,360
You need a balance of two 
people, you know, one throwing 

569
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,880
to the other or some on 
occasions. 

570
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,640
A little bit of AG in the 
commentary, but as long as it 

571
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,520
doesn't become an embarrassment.
You listen to Roy Keane doing a 

572
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,080
football analysis. 
Love it. 

573
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,080
And others you know, others are 
a little bit more timid. 

574
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,280
But you know Roy. 
Sad as it is. 

575
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,120
That's what my role is as a, as 
a as a an expert commented is 

576
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,920
the lead commenter, which is 
Mary, is to create the scene, to

577
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,720
establish what's happening on 
the screen and to give the 

578
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,000
overall commentary. 
But then you have James or me. 

579
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,320
Or whomever. 
And who's who's the lead? 

580
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,240
Who? 
Who have? 

581
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,240
You got in Sky, for example. 
What's that guy called? 

582
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,960
David. 
Croft. 

583
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,440
No, no. 
What do you call that other guy 

584
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,120
used to race? 
What's that guy used to race? 

585
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,760
That's the guy I forgot. 
You know he's going to love me 

586
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,240
when he sees this. 
We all are there to do our 

587
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,440
little bit and it comes down to 
ultimately production and the 

588
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,720
guys in the gallery and guiding 
us. 

589
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,960
This even when I was doing this,
in the Super Touring days, when 

590
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,240
you work for the BBC, 
adjectives. 

591
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,080
You can't describe an incident 
in a motor race as a disaster, a

592
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,320
catastrophe, a world changing 
event. 

593
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,600
Because it's not, It's only a 
motor race. 

594
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,200
Now if you've got something 
horrendous happens in the world,

595
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,240
a global disaster, that's that's
what a disaster is. 

596
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,400
But two cars touching going into
old Hall corner and one spinning

597
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,600
off isn't a disaster. 
So we have to be careful about 

598
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,800
how we would describe incidents.
Yeah, yeah. 

599
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:48,920
Exasperation on my part. 
For this series of stories from 

600
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,600
Super Touring, we are delighted 
to be teaming up with Brands 

601
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,440
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 
Super Touring Power 2, which is 

602
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,160
being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 

603
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,120
2024. 
The award nominated event was a 

604
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,920
smash hit last year when it's 
debut edition transported fans 

605
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,960
back to the 90s and this year's 
event will once again celebrate 

606
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,120
one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. 

607
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,680
To enter the competition, just 
answer the following question. 

608
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,120
Who was the first ever guest to 
star on Stories From Super 

609
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,640
Touring? 
Send your answers to Pod at 

610
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,280
1990s btcc.com and we'll 
announce the winner on a later 

611
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,320
episode this series. 
Meanwhile, let's get back to the

612
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:40,360
episode. 
Watty I was going to ask, did 

613
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,080
you ever get picked up by 
someone like a Jason Plato? 

614
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,600
Or because you're quite 
outspoken, which we love, by the

615
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,440
way, Because I think T VS way 
too tame these days. 

616
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,200
Did they ever, You know, what's 
all that about? 

617
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,240
Did you have any? 
Why did you say that about me? 

618
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,000
That sort of scenario. 
I don't think any driver ever 

619
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,880
made any issues. 
Like one time I remember Patrick

620
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,480
Head got a bit of a hair up his 
backside about something he 

621
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,520
perceived I'd said and he 
thought that I was very poor 

622
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,280
McLaren and not not balanced 
about Williamson. 

623
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,639
I hope I wasn't, and I think I. 
Certainly when Williams are 

624
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:17,960
doing a good job I certainly 
gave him credit afford. 

625
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,480
I think maybe I was more 
critical at times of a period in

626
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,840
94 and 95 which is obviously 94 
was a very difficult year for 

627
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:33,080
the team when they lost I am 7 
but in 1895 Damon ought to won 

628
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,040
the world championship and DC 
who was in a sort of as which 

629
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,600
might says first full season 
made some schoolboy errors that 

630
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,440
could have done better 96 then 
Damon did win the world 

631
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,440
championship but in that Patrick
just he just wanted to make a 

632
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,000
point that I think that you're 
not being fair in some of the 

633
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,040
comments. 
You've made I. 

634
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:59,120
Disagreed with them, but Patrick
is Patrick is Patrick, Yeah. 

635
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,840
Yeah, Didn't come to fit. 
Didn't come to fisticuffs or 

636
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,800
anything. 
No, no, no, no, no. 

637
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,440
But I did send a gang around a 
sort of mother about two days. 

638
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:15,280
Later I remember we did a we did
a piece before about the BTCC 

639
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,200
commentary. 
And I stand by this, and I'm not

640
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,480
saying it just because you're 
here, but Levi, you'll you'll 

641
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,840
you'll back me up on this. 
I have always said as much as I 

642
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,880
loved Murray Walker commentary 
wise, for touring cars, you and 

643
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,200
Charlie Cox were the perfect 
foil because of the style of 

644
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,920
racing, the, the chemistry and 
the camaraderie between you two.

645
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,320
It just all seemed to fit so, so
well. 

646
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,640
And I don't know if you get any.
I don't know if you get much 

647
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,960
feedback about your touring car 
time, comment the commentary 

648
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,440
during your touring car times. 
But for me, the two of you were 

649
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,600
the best pair ever. 
And and and and I really, really

650
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,400
enjoyed the coverage that you 
two both produced well. 

651
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,200
First of all, thank you for 
that. 

652
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,920
No problem. 
I mean, I think, I mean I can't 

653
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,960
speak for Charlie, but he is an 
Aussie and I mean Aussies are 

654
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,760
outspoken and I think that's 
great. 

655
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,720
And he's opinionated. 
I'm outspoken and opinionated as

656
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:14,360
well. 
And when you've got a highly 

657
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,600
competitive championship as as 
touring cars, super touring cars

658
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,680
wear in those days, then it's 
not very difficult to, you know,

659
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,640
add to what you're seeing on 
screen. 

660
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,760
And I think that I think I hope 
that what we were doing was at 

661
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,840
the time and it was probably 
relatively fresh in terms of 

662
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,360
what was coming on on British 
Touring cars. 

663
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,400
Yeah. 
Thank you for the compliment. 

664
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,960
And I'm sure Charlie has got 
great reflections and memories 

665
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,400
of what we were doing at the 
time. 

666
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,760
Apart from that one moment which
I've already told you about. 

667
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,680
Yes, what happened? 
What happened then, John? 

668
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,160
What were you live? 
Was it one of the BHP recorded 

669
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:49,720
highlights? 
What? 

670
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,880
Oh, I think we're Oh yeah, we 
were live. 

671
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,480
You know, just there was an 
incident coming into the chicane

672
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,160
at Suxton and I'd been, so the 
way we were handing over to each

673
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,440
other, but there's that came up 
to the chicane, there's an 

674
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,800
overtake and I called the 
overtake at the same time as you

675
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,640
know, going through and that 
seemed a natural thing. 

676
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,880
And then he didn't think it was 
quite as natural. 

677
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,000
So a little moment, a little 
quiet, private moment, and we 

678
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,480
moved on. 
We didn't send. 

679
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,600
Business card, but we moved on. 
What's he going to say? 

680
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:20,840
Do you still keep in touch with 
him? 

681
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,400
I presume that's no. 
I I see him from. 

682
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,440
Time to time at Silverstone. 
Here's as I mentioned, I 

683
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,560
proposed him for membership to 
the BRDC away back in somewhere 

684
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,480
in the early 90s. 
I don't know how frequently 

685
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,240
Charlie attends certainly 
events. 

686
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:37,240
I mean he might turn up at 
touring car events and he's very

687
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:42,520
close to the management in in 
the touring car operation. 

688
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,920
I've got this Alan Guy. 
Alan Guy, used car salesman from

689
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,720
Elburn has built up touring car 
racing into the fantastic 

690
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:54,560
franchise it is today. 
Charlie Fox comes from a 

691
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,040
background of of broadcast. 
He ran little sort of radio 

692
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,360
stations throughout Australia. 
Both are very natural salesman, 

693
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,120
big characters, big 
personalities, and yeah, so I 

694
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,520
think Charlie might go to the 
touring car round and 

695
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,000
occasionally he pops up at 
Silverstone. 

696
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,280
Maybe something of of notice 
taking place at the time? 

697
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,040
He was at Brands Hatch last year
at the Super Touring Power event

698
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,200
and we desperately tried to get 
in touch with him. 

699
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,960
We we we we're really keen to 
get him on the show so hopefully

700
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,400
at some point we can nab him, 
but yeah it's. 

701
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,040
Don't, don't give up because he 
has good value. 

702
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,720
Yeah. 
I mean, he's got anecdotes, you 

703
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,480
know, as long as you're on. 
And he's got all these little 

704
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,960
phrases, which are all. 
I mean, that's one of his 

705
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,280
phrases. 
And no, it's all this good 

706
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:45,400
stuff. 
Very good stuff. 

707
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,320
Next time I see him at the BIDCI
will collar him. 

708
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,760
You grab him. 
I will grab him. 

709
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,760
I will. 
I want to say, look, John. 

710
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,200
Sent me out, I told you. 
I told you to grab him and they 

711
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:02,200
told you don't let him go. 
We we've touched on it briefly 

712
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,680
sort of recording before the the
show and then again at the top 

713
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,200
of the show coming into this 
bit, but sort of perhaps more in

714
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,840
the the Super touring era. 
Had you seen much of the BTCC 

715
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,720
during the 90s before you came 
in with the BBC or was that sort

716
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,600
of something you had to to look 
into and research coming into 

717
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,120
the start of the season in 98? 
I mean, obviously I'd watched 

718
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,120
when it's on television and 
obviously the The Days and Mary 

719
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,840
was involved in it, but my I 
suppose my focal point had 

720
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,280
always been Grand Prix in 
Formula One, so if it was on 

721
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,280
television then I'd watch it. 
I wasn't probably attending 

722
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,720
events because I didn't have any
purpose to go. 

723
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,080
So it's really a matter of the 
opportunity arose. 

724
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,080
There was a new discipline and 
then trying to sort of embed 

725
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,960
myself into the championship to 
get to know the personalities, 

726
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,760
characters of Jay. 
Ellen Guy was principal of it 

727
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,040
and it was important for him to 
have it well presented. 

728
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,240
And I suspect that the reason 
that that Charlie Cox became a 

729
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:07,400
part of the broadcast line that 
was the lead broadcaster was 

730
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,040
directly because of Ellen Garth.
And you know, these things don't

731
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,520
just happen by chance. 
There's a reason, logic behind 

732
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,840
it, and I suspect that Alan was 
very much a part of the purpose 

733
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,160
and reasoning behind Charlie 
getting the role as the 

734
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,120
commentator and I've been Alan 
would have been aware. 

735
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,280
Of what I've done and the 
broadcasting I've done on EUR. 

736
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,600
But as you guys have said, yeah,
so they thought, well, why not 

737
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,880
see if John's interested, give 
him a pop and let's see how it 

738
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,280
goes. 
Yeah, that first season of of 

739
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,160
your coverage was in 98. 
And I mean, what a year to come 

740
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,240
into it, because that's regarded
by many fans as the greatest 

741
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:49,480
touring car season of all time. 
What were your memories of that 

742
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,000
first year in particular the 
sort of the standard of the 

743
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,760
racing, the quality of the 
drivers, the the the whole 

744
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,120
championship really, Is it, you 
know, do you agree with that? 

745
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,560
Would, would would have been one
of the finest years of towing 

746
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,400
car racing ever. 
Well, again, I think that 

747
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,160
because of the number of 
manufacturers involved and 

748
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,200
because every manufacturer was 
very individual and their 

749
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,600
approach to working around the 
rules and regulations. 

750
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,840
And there was a period when 
there's a transitional technical

751
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,120
and uplifting technology going 
into touring cars from, you 

752
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,320
know, say a front wheel drive 
touring car look, God damn. 

753
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,960
Or designed racing cars with 
front wheel drive that was 

754
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,640
designed by technicians. 
God doesn't want front wheels. 

755
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,360
He wants rear wheel drive, which
is the natural place to have a 

756
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,560
car driven. 
Steer from the front, drive from

757
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,440
the rear. 
Now you want to make a formula 

758
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,000
which is drive from the front 
and steer from the rear, then go

759
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,560
down to B&Q and look at the guys
driving around in there. 

760
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,240
So it was a. 
Different discipline and the one

761
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:54,480
I hadn't had a great deal of 
interest or input into. 

762
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,880
But when I realized and saw what
was going on, the same Williams 

763
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,880
did and this and it and Walton 
Show was doing. 

764
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:07,400
And suddenly there was a big, I 
would say Formula One or let's 

765
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:14,280
say Grand Prix technology input,
which was interesting because 

766
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,440
touring cars had always been 
fundamentally what do you see in

767
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,640
the leaders, what you get? 
And now we were seeing a big 

768
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,560
change. 
And you're seeing also other 

769
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,920
drivers, you know, not 
necessarily traditional touring 

770
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,880
car drivers, but drivers coming 
in from other disciplines. 

771
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,080
In Laura Yellow for example, was
one that in Laura was an 

772
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,760
outstanding driver and Formula 
3000 and single seaters came in 

773
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,480
and then part of the Nissan 
team. 

774
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:45,720
And hold on that that's that's a
class guy and he'd driven other,

775
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,880
you know, major championships 
coming into British Touring 

776
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,960
House. 
So it suddenly had elevated 

777
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,600
itself. 
And I I just thought it was very

778
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,080
exciting in terms of here's a 
British Championship, Touring 

779
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,600
Card Championship, which became 
de facto the best touring card 

780
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,680
championship in the world by 
country mile. 

781
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:04,920
Yes. 
Yeah, it was. 

782
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,720
It's often said on here that it 
was a world championship in 

783
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:10,360
effect that just happened to be 
in one country. 

784
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,200
That was the standard of it. 
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to 

785
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,840
be said for that, you know, one 
world championship runner or a 

786
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,400
world championship runner, 1 
country, run backwards forwards,

787
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,280
whatever. 
But no, there was a great 

788
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,560
championship and the racing was 
competitive. 

789
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,760
And it was, you know, to say 
that the technology side of it 

790
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,000
was what I think and many 
respects was what I find 

791
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,040
appealing about it was because 
you're having that sort of 

792
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,520
brain. 
Power going into How can we use 

793
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,520
the rules of a touring car? 
Regulation to our advantage. 

794
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,120
And as is often the case, the 
people that make the rules are 

795
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,000
not the sharpest, sharpest 
knives in the drawer. 

796
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,040
The people that are interpreting
the rules Razor. 

797
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,840
Sharp. 
And that, for me is again a part

798
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,320
of what makes it. 
That's the fascination, isn't 

799
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,640
it? 
Yeah, I love all that I know. 

800
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,480
I'm a friend of Ross from And 
you, you. 

801
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,560
Ross was a phenomenal engineer, 
designer and moving on to the 

802
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,440
greater things. 
And I mean, he subsequently 

803
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,960
became the gamekeeper as opposed
to the poachers, opposed to the 

804
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,360
gamekeeper. 
In more recent days than Formula

805
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:28,240
One, if you write a rule, the 
more complicated you write the 

806
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,400
rule, the more easy it is to 
find a way around it. 

807
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,520
So if you can make a rule, 
that's one word. 

808
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,600
That's hard to find a way 
around. 

809
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,480
If you use 1000 words, there's a
lot of guys out there who are 

810
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,640
very lateral thinking in their 
interpretations, and they will 

811
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,960
find a way to say what you can't
do or what you can't can't. 

812
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,720
That was the that was a part of 
the appeal and the attraction 

813
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,640
that there are smart, smart 
people in these teams who are 

814
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,760
now reading rules and 
regulations and interpreting 

815
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:05,440
them in a way which is legal, 
yeah, but not how the rule was 

816
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,240
intended. 
Yeah, and if you and if you 

817
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:08,400
don't. 
Say that you if it. 

818
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,520
Doesn't say you can't do it. 
That means you can. 

819
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,000
Yes, and. 
And if the rule makers aren't 

820
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,960
smart enough to understand there
are guys out there who are 

821
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,800
smarter than they are, yeah, 
well, then there's an open door.

822
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,560
There's an open door. 
Yeah, look at look. 

823
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,920
And there's a prime example for 
recent for For listeners to 

824
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,000
understand this look at the 
double diffusion from Formula 

825
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,760
One. 
Yeah, didn't say you can't have 

826
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,480
it. 
Look, look, when the Tyrell and 

827
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,320
the Williams had six wheels. 
Didn't say you got four wheels. 

828
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,960
Fan the fan. 
Car The problem The fan. 

829
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,240
Car Oh, yes, yes. 
The Gordon Murray to this die, 

830
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,320
this day would die because he 
will say, and he had legal 

831
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,520
advice that the primary purpose 
of the fans on the BT46 fan. 

832
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,280
Car was to cool the engine I've 
actually been I've stood between

833
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,480
Gordon Murray and the late Max 
Mosley. 

834
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,520
Well, this was 30 years after 
the event and Max still said 

835
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,480
that was illegal and Gordon said
no it's not. 

836
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,120
And Max was a barrister as well.
This. 

837
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,880
That's mad. 
That's that's that's what makes 

838
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,080
it to me such a, you know, 
exciting arena to be involved. 

839
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,000
And obviously bring it into the 
Super Touring world with these 

840
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,520
rules. 
Look, 4 wheel drive. 

841
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,840
Audi didn't say it couldn't be 4
wheel drive, so they did 4 wheel

842
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,320
drive and it's just clever 
thinking, wasn't it? 

843
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,920
Yes, I mean simply it's again 
just somebody looking at the 

844
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,760
regulations and and using those 
to their advantage. 

845
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,880
I can't think of a lot, but the 
idea is obviously a very good 

846
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:38,920
example. 
The. 

847
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,520
Alpha wing. 
Alpha. 

848
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,520
Alpha wing? 
Yeah, that's another one. 

849
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,440
I mean in terms of four wheel 
drive, 4 wheel drive has never 

850
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,440
been to success in motorsport on
circuit racing, on set of 

851
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:50,840
touring cars. 
No. 

852
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,400
Formula One tried 4 wheel drive 
and it was an absolute abject 

853
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,040
failure because aerodynamics 
came along and then better tasks

854
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,600
came along but already managed 
to find a way around and made it

855
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,760
work. 
But the your man just said the 

856
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,600
Alfa Romeo. 
Alfa in 94, so it's before you 

857
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,720
worked in the Championship. 
They were the ones who brought 

858
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:14,320
aero, basically. 
A loophole in the rules 

859
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,800
basically meant that as long as 
they produced 5000 examples of a

860
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,000
motor car, they could race it. 
So they produced 5000 with a 

861
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,200
front and rear wing. 
So, but but when you when you 

862
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,680
picked it up from the 
dealership, they're in the boot 

863
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,040
of the car. 
They weren't fit you to. 

864
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,160
The car they're in a, they're in
a bag as the. 

865
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,200
Manufacturer probably was aware 
we didn't have to fit them, we 

866
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,640
just have to provide them. 
Yeah, and that's what they did. 

867
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,320
And then again, clever thinking 
I I love all that stuff. 

868
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,120
Yeah, but that's yeah, that's 
that takes me into the sort of 

869
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,400
territory of John Le Carre and 
your spine always. 

870
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,680
And you know, and listen, I'm 
sure there's a lot of all that 

871
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,400
went on, you know, secrets 
within teams. 

872
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,680
How did that secret get out? 
How did one team become aware of

873
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,080
what another team is doing? 
Yes, it's just, I love it. 

874
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,200
I love it. 
There's lots of that happened in

875
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,520
the late 90s in the tour, in the
touring cars. 

876
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,640
There are lots of whispers of 
certain things that were going 

877
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,880
on that were not quite so. 
There was the the example in 98 

878
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,920
where Volvo was accused of 
spraying oil on the track in the

879
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,240
first race that you covered it. 
There was also I I enjoyed that,

880
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:23,480
that technical battle as much as
as much as the the the track 

881
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,720
battles, but sadly it's probably
what killed off Super Touring 

882
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,520
because it just went on and on 
and on. 

883
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,920
Every, every formula where 
you've got a liberal, liberal 

884
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,400
interpretation. 
Still. 

885
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,040
I mean you, you've got it in 
touring cars, you've got a 

886
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,320
prescriptive car, Formula One, 
We've got the Australian Grand 

887
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,360
Prix this weekend and if you 
painted every single Formula One

888
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,640
car twice, took the decals off, 
it's quite difficult. 

889
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,040
But you know, on television to 
television to switch. 

890
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,440
Yeah, yeah, maybe an engineer 
could say, well, that car has 

891
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,120
got a certain oh, sorry. 
Sorry, hold on, pit lane, Ted 

892
00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:00,720
would tell you. 
By the way, you know, Would 

893
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:02,600
Natalie? 
Would Natalie Pinkham know? 

894
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,240
So to John, back to 98 then. 
So the iconic year that it was 

895
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,040
during that year, this was one 
of the years when Mansell came 

896
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,480
into it and did the race at 
Donnington Park and your quote 

897
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,960
was British Touring Cars has 
certainly eclipsed anything we 

898
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,240
have ever seen before. 
Was that fond memories of a of a

899
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:25,480
race for you? 
And I mean, that's some 

900
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,000
statement. 
Well, I mean. 

901
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,600
Having Nigel join in because 
that took the dynamic of the 

902
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,760
event changed because Nigel was 
a mega * and everywhere he went 

903
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:41,080
he brought with them a of 
support mania. 

904
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,040
Well, mania indeed. 
And Nigel is a phenomenal race 

905
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,640
driver, make no mistake. 
And I mean certainly in his 

906
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,600
Formula One era he drove, I 
mean. 

907
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,760
Some of the best races, Nigel 
was actually an outstanding race

908
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,440
driver. 
By that I mean he was a good 

909
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,520
racer. 
Not every Formula One driver, 

910
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,200
not every racing driver, is a 
good racer. 

911
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,320
They might be effective racing 
drivers, but they're not racist.

912
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,720
Nigel was a racer and of course 
it's very difficult with the 

913
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:11,320
reputation that he had. 
To come into an into a different

914
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,560
discipline and and when, because
there's no way he could come in 

915
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,000
and not be a winning driver. 
So Nigel bought with him a a 

916
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,480
massive amount of public 
interest, but also on his own 

917
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:22,720
side. 
And that's the amount of 

918
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:26,880
expectation and baggage I know 
was a though was a Donington 

919
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,360
where Ian was a tiff. 
Nice to blame Tiff, Tiff says He

920
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,080
had nothing to do with it. 
Nigel brought a lot to to 

921
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,080
touring cars for the period he 
was there and he brought public 

922
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,480
interest, public awareness and 
would have brought more media 

923
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,200
interest. 
Yeah, but you know, he the, the 

924
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,280
next best British driver to take
part between Derek Warwick and 

925
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,320
Derek Grace is Alfa Romeo. 
Yeah, yeah, and. 

926
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,160
But Derek wasn't a world 
champion. 

927
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,560
The fact is Nigel was a world 
champion and maybe the way 

928
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,000
Nigel's career had, the path 
that had gone down and there 

929
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,200
was, there was controversy and 
you know, emotion and Nigel. 

930
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,760
'S, you know, outpourings and 
Murray. 

931
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:12,600
You know Murray. 
It's all a bit of a drama, but 

932
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:17,920
it was the public at large loved
him because he had passion and. 

933
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:21,280
I mean, that's what, again, I 
think Nigel is probably best 

934
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,880
known for is this passion and 
this passion behind the wheel. 

935
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,120
It didn't always work out 
favourably for him and maybe he 

936
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,160
did the touring car thing and he
didn't make a life. 

937
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,200
After Formula One in Touring 
cars, but often they didn't. 

938
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,840
Do you know that was before he 
did touring cars. 

939
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,800
I'm losing the track of the plot
here. 

940
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,560
Anyway, look, he's he is a very,
very capable. 

941
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,720
Accomplished race driver, but 
jumping into a touring car 

942
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,880
against established touring car 
stars was always going to be a 

943
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,520
big ass. 
Well, we're talking about that 

944
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,440
because I want to ask in a 
moment, John, the difference 

945
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,760
between the the highlights races
that were recorded in London and

946
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,400
the live races. 
But just while we're talking 

947
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,080
about F1 drivers, there's so 
many examples, but I've just 

948
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,840
been writing some down while 
we've been talking tar Queeny 

949
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,480
won the championship menu. 
Rydell came from single seater 

950
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,000
backgrounds and had good to pick
our careers, very good. 

951
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,720
But Mansell, Palmer, Morbidade, 
Warwick, John Christophe, beyond

952
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,280
primarily all struggled, didn't 
know quite badly in a tin top. 

953
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,680
Is that to do with adapting, as 
you've just said, or is it that 

954
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,600
attitude of I'm the Formula One 
driver? 

955
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:19,960
This is a bit beneath me, do you
think? 

956
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,080
It may be an element of that. 
I think that if you've come out 

957
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,640
of a series such as you know a 
Formula One Grand Prix whatever 

958
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,560
you're you're driving but 
there's a fundamentally high 

959
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:35,600
downforce lightweight race car 
and and then you jump into a 

960
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,880
touring car which is probably at
least double the weight maybe a 

961
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,840
bit more with a fraction of the 
downforce on a much smaller 

962
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,640
wheel tire. 
The level of grip from the 

963
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,000
rubber the rubber would not 
necessarily be of the nature of 

964
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,320
a Formula One tire. 
So many elements were different 

965
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:56,800
and and I did a race some of God
it was back in 1991 or whatever 

966
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:01,600
it was in the Jaguar XJR 
Fifteens which was a support 

967
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,680
race it was a world control one 
rate series and there's a star 

968
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,960
and I drove the car as I 
probably I had said but one of 

969
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,840
the worst racing cars I'd ever 
driven because it was. 

970
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,160
It was the weight was high up, 
There was no arrow on the car. 

971
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,440
They're now driven the XJR 
eights and sevens eights and 

972
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,560
nines, which were basically the 
same chassis but with a massive 

973
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,720
amount of downforce. 
So the downforce controlled the 

974
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,120
centre of gravity. 
The XJR Fifteens didn't have 

975
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,040
that downforce. 
It was a bit fundamentally a 

976
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,320
high performance Rd. car, so the
car would lull up above. 

977
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,720
But drivers who were accustomed 
to driving touring cars where 

978
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:45,120
you had low levels of grip, high
centre of gravity? 

979
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:47,280
Was it Hubert? 
Hannah. 

980
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:48,600
Not ring a bell? 
Not too. 

981
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,840
But Hannah. 
Anyway, was it an Amin Hannah? 

982
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:56,160
Was it? 
Alman Alman Alman was fantastic 

983
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,080
in the XJR fifteens because he'd
come from racing, touring. 

984
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:05,400
Cars fundamentally low levels of
grip high centre of gravity and 

985
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,240
he developed the skills and to 
beat the guy it was very 

986
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,560
difficult. 
I mean in fact he was way 

987
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,600
quicker than maybe. 
I mean I know that Derek Warwick

988
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,120
did a very good job and in fact 
Derek one, I think that's not 

989
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,320
one of the races. 
What I'm trying to get to is 

990
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,360
that coming out of Formula One, 
high downforce, logic grip, 

991
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,040
lightweight, you're very 
responsive cars. 

992
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,160
Going into a touring car, which 
is totally the opposite and 

993
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,880
thinking you're going to be in 
there and going to blow away. 

994
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,080
The. 
There are many, many very good 

995
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,280
race drivers who didn't race 
single seaters, who only had a 

996
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,440
career in a touring car or 
something like a touring car, 

997
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,920
who have evolved the ability and
skills to be able to make sure 

998
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,960
that they are the dominant 
drivers of that period. 

999
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,440
It's it's difficult I feel to 
make that transition. 

1000
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:56,240
You may in time adapt, but it's 
not easy to walk in and just sit

1001
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:02,240
down and think I'm going to. 
But even even during the the Pro

1002
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:05,760
Car series, the BMW Pro Car 
series, which was at the late 

1003
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:10,600
70s, early 80s with the BMWM 
ones, again, heavy ish car, not 

1004
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,920
much time for it's not a lot of 
grip, you know, it's not easy 

1005
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,760
cars to drive the factory engine
cars, the factory entry cars 

1006
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,200
were usually the best of the 
bunch, but nevertheless, because

1007
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,800
you're a Formula One driver 
jumping into one of those and a 

1008
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,000
limited amount of running and 
road testing, there's no 

1009
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,440
guarantee that you're going to 
be competitive. 

1010
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,120
No, I think, I think one of the 
things that many people have 

1011
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,280
said that they've told us in on 
this show is that they found the

1012
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,760
step from rear wheel drive, 
especially if they've come from 

1013
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:44,360
a single seated background 
coming from a rear wheel drive 

1014
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,920
car to a front wheel drive 
touring car, extremely 

1015
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,360
difficult. 
And some people never, never 

1016
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,040
fully got to grips with it and 
never really enjoyed it. 

1017
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,080
But they just, they got good at 
it because that was their job, 

1018
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,240
but it wasn't natural to them 
and I think a lot of people 

1019
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:02,600
found that step of struggle. 
Well, I did actually drive a 

1020
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,400
very competitive touring car, 
kindly invited to drive a Nissan

1021
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,440
Primera up at Senators and one 
day and I mean, I never sat in a

1022
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,920
car like it. 
And this time that was the 

1023
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,720
state-of-the-art. 
And I mean in terms of Hortman 

1024
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:21,240
218, ninety 300 horsepower you 
you weren't going to? 

1025
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:23,320
Burst the blood vessels in your 
eyes, that's for sure. 

1026
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,360
But the thing that was, I think,
most difficult to learn, to 

1027
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,360
adapt. 
To was particularly under 

1028
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,640
braking and the transition from 
the brakes to the entry to a 

1029
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,120
corner because it was easy to 
lock up the front brake and 

1030
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,520
therefore you'd lose grip the 
front. 

1031
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,160
So that was the transition I 
felt was most difficult. 

1032
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,440
Also in the coming round, quorum
on one lap. 

1033
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,160
Apparently the guys in the pits 
thought I was going to have the 

1034
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,360
biggest accident because the 
front wheel drive car was 

1035
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,240
suddenly the back was drifting 
around and round and I'm sitting

1036
00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:58,880
there thinking, OK, just hang in
here, hang in there anyway, 

1037
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,920
nothing happened. 
But it is a different discipline

1038
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,280
to what I grew up with and what 
I'm accustomed to. 

1039
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,520
And I would make no suggestion 
that I could ever have been a 

1040
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,320
competitive race car driver in a
touring car because it was 

1041
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:20,080
almost an alien kind of concept 
to that I raced all my life. 

1042
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,320
I said just that brief 
acquaintance I had with the 

1043
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,760
Nissan was, I mean I I always 
felt I was good under brakes and

1044
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,600
I had a good sense of distance, 
speed, judgement. 

1045
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,120
And I had braked. 
I thought we should brake in the

1046
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,880
Nissan and all of a sudden, oh 
shit, what happened there? 

1047
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,040
It was a kind of how do you make
that adjustment? 

1048
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:46,560
Because it didn't feel natural 
for the the, the adjustment I 

1049
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,240
was going to have to make didn't
feel a natural adjustment that 

1050
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,400
felt artificial. 
So I mean as I don't need about 

1051
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,000
8 or 10 laps in the car and 
maybe if I'd spent more time and

1052
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,360
then had the chance to process 
all the things that I had done. 

1053
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,960
And one of the things that I 
liked to do when I was racing 

1054
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,840
was if I'm in a strange car, 
like what do 3 or 4 laps come 

1055
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,960
in, stop 5 minutes, just 
download my own thoughts, go 

1056
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,120
back and again and then. 
So I didn't have that 

1057
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:14,840
opportunity. 
I didn't take that opportunity 

1058
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,920
with the Nissan. 
Had I done so and, you know, 

1059
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,920
thought about the braking, 
particularly the braking and 

1060
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,640
then the transition into entry 
into the corner, maybe I would 

1061
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,600
have managed that better. 
Maybe I would have done a 

1062
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,320
competitive time, I don't know. 
But look, the guys that were 

1063
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,640
driving those cars at that time 
were extracting the maximum 

1064
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,360
performance. 
I wasn't going to come in and 

1065
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:36,880
suddenly find 2 seconds a lap 
and make them look like a load 

1066
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,800
of Lemons. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1067
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,120
It's yeah, I'm glad you 
remembered that John because you

1068
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,080
did a feature at in the pre race
show at Snetterton of you 

1069
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,240
driving the car and we were 
going to ask you about that and 

1070
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,840
and your thoughts about it. 
So it's interesting to hear your

1071
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,000
thoughts about the the Nissan. 
And it was, I think that, you 

1072
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,960
know, mainly through my 
friendship with Alec and he was,

1073
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,240
he was very anxious that I 
should have the chance to. 

1074
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,880
He wanted my thoughts, I mean 
principally to compare those of 

1075
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:10,720
the the drivers of the day. 
And it was. 

1076
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,040
Was I? 
I'm not sure who was at a yellow

1077
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,160
and. 
David Leslie. 

1078
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,680
David, that's right. 
Just to see whether there was 

1079
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,520
actually something that I could 
bring. 

1080
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:26,240
Sort of a lateral thought. 
That because the drivers of the 

1081
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,760
day may not be so. 
I don't think I contributed 

1082
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,480
anything to the competitiveness 
of the car. 

1083
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,120
I mean, I probably flat spotted 
for the set tyres, but it was 

1084
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,960
enjoyment, experience and the 
little that I might have 

1085
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,280
contributed. 
I'm sure that they thought about

1086
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:42,960
it. 
Maybe if they're having 

1087
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,880
debriefings later in the, you 
know, next event they might have

1088
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,320
thought, well, John said this, 
but can you relate to that to 

1089
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:56,320
regular drivers? 
In terms of the coverage in 

1090
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,120
adapting, John, we touched on it
before. 

1091
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,720
Primarily they were recorded 
highlights, weren't they 

1092
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,360
recorded at VHP Barry Ansgood 
Productions in Golf Square in 

1093
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,160
London. 
What was that like going into 

1094
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,240
the studio? 
Clubbing, as it were with 

1095
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,480
Charlie, recorded highlights, 
probably already knowing the 

1096
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,680
race result I'm sure from a 
couple of days before, which did

1097
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:15,920
you prefer live or recorded and 
how was that for you? 

1098
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,360
Live is always best because 
everything is then more 

1099
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,400
spontaneous. 
But when you go into a studio to

1100
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:27,920
do it, kind of spontaneity, 
kindness to drift into it, and 

1101
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,680
it's part of our responsibility 
to make it sound as if it is 

1102
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,680
alive rather than here are two 
guys sitting in a studio board 

1103
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:40,440
out of the mind. 
So I'd like to hope that what we

1104
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,880
were doing in the studio was not
a. 1,000,000 miles away from 

1105
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,040
what we were doing in a live 
event, but look at live events 

1106
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:51,560
and not just You can do live in 
a studio or you can do a pre 

1107
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,880
recorder in the studio, but live
at the event is the best. 

1108
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:57,800
And you get there. 
You've got the atmosphere, 

1109
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,120
you've got the the ability to 
walk around the paddock to speak

1110
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,160
to one or two people or if 
they'll speak to you, that's 

1111
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,640
another matter. 
But it's it's always better to 

1112
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:11,080
be on at the event and be live 
and I think that that ultimately

1113
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,840
comes through in in terms of a 
broadcast. 

1114
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:15,800
What about you, Greg? 
Do you prefer that live? 

1115
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,200
Yeah, I think so. 
It gives you that thrill as as 

1116
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,200
what he will know for. 
Well, it's you're on the edge, 

1117
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:21,400
aren't you? 
You don't quite know what's 

1118
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,160
going to happen. 
You've got a running order. 

1119
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,200
Exactly. 
You know the race is so many 

1120
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,400
laps. 
You know it's going to start at 

1121
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,200
this time, but you don't know, 
do you? 

1122
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,400
As soon as those lights go out 
to use a Murray Crow, anything 

1123
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,000
could happen. 
Yeah, I think, I think likewise,

1124
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,680
you know, you get that just 
additional adrenaline rush 

1125
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,000
you're you're waiting in the 
grid for the lights to guard and

1126
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,320
then it's go, go, go. 
And I think having that bit of 

1127
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,200
pressure, because you're live, I
think having that bit of 

1128
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,400
pressure, just like as a racing 
driver, you have a bit of 

1129
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,800
pressure where it makes you 
raise your game and you have to 

1130
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:52,800
be on it because you know you're
alive. 

1131
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,520
There's there's when I I live in
Oxford. 

1132
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,840
There's a place called the 
Westgate car, Westgate Shopping 

1133
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,120
Centre. 
They've got 3 barriers, entry 

1134
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,280
barriers. 
If I go within to one of those 

1135
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,000
barriers, there's two cars 
beside me I'm sitting at. 

1136
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,680
I want to beat the better 
barriers. 

1137
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:12,400
I was dead. 
It was that. 

1138
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,880
It's live. 
Come on, come on, let's about, 

1139
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:18,560
let's about. 
Come. 

1140
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,560
On do you how favorite is what? 
Yeah, I know Ben Edwards is. 

1141
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,720
You must have a sweet spot for 
Benji as you used to call him 

1142
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:25,640
because you. 
Commentated. 

1143
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,840
On Eurosport F1 Digital Players 
A1 GP. 

1144
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,200
Well I think I meant Ben and I 
worked together over a variety 

1145
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,760
of just it's been Formula One A1
GP and turning cars and also I 

1146
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,560
think we did some of the SRO 
stuff. 

1147
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,960
So I know Ben very well and we 
worked extremely well together 

1148
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,760
and you know Ben is a brilliant 
and I just you know just 

1149
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,880
everything he does and he's easy
to work with there's it doesn't 

1150
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:55,560
exhibit let's say the kind of 
ego that other to remain 

1151
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,040
nameless. 
Many commentators. 

1152
01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,520
I think I know exactly who you 
mean. 

1153
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,720
Might, might, might, might 
project. 

1154
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,800
So Ben was outstanding. 
But I enjoyed working with all 

1155
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,200
the people I worked with Simon 
Taylor with the radio and then 

1156
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,080
Andrew Marriott, then of course 
Alard and Alard and I, you know,

1157
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,360
sort of as was the foundation of
Eurosport really from the back 

1158
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,520
end of 81, because 81 was, we 
weren't on there that often. 

1159
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,680
There was an issue about who 
owned the rights to Eurosport at

1160
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:24,600
Sky or. 
Whatever. 

1161
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,400
But we came back full time in 82
and Allard, I mean remember 

1162
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,760
Allard is Dutch, but his English
is just phenomenal and his 

1163
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,720
thinking is phenomenal and it 
was a really great partnership. 

1164
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:41,080
And then Eurosport opted to move
forward with with Ben and that 

1165
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:42,760
then took it on to a different 
platter. 

1166
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,160
And Ben and I worked for those 
two years together. 

1167
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,960
It was just great and very. 
It was very sad that at the end 

1168
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,040
of the day ITV came in and 
fundamentally paid Bernie enough

1169
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:57,080
to take Eurosport off the air. 
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's

1170
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,440
the loose phones of it, but 
there's a bit more detail on 

1171
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,520
that. 
And then going on with Charlie 

1172
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:06,320
was CC was a different dynamic 
to work with, but then he's 

1173
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:11,960
Australian. 
Yeah, and and and and the the. 

1174
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,320
The discipline is very different
as well, isn't it? 

1175
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,160
Touring cars, short sharp burst 
of racing rather than your 

1176
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,400
longer endurance style racing or
your longer Grand Prix. 

1177
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:22,560
But. 
Listen, I mean. 

1178
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,160
I know that the, the, the, the 
durations are different, but 

1179
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,120
actually anyone who I've worked 
with, I mean currently I worked 

1180
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,840
with David Addison principally. 
And if David was unavailable 

1181
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,400
because he's doing one of your 
touring car runs, then it might 

1182
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,400
be Bruce Jones or maybe somebody
else. 

1183
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:42,560
But what I hope that my 
contribution is, is an energy 

1184
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,680
and a dynamic and you know, 
pushing it forward. 

1185
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,840
You know if you, if you had 
David or Bruce or whoever doing 

1186
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,160
it on their own and they will do
an outstanding job. 

1187
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,280
It's never as good as having two
people together, whether it's me

1188
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,760
or somebody else, let's say in 
my case. 

1189
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,520
So there's an uplift in the 
energy, an uplift in the 

1190
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:08,480
vitality and I want, and I know 
that as SRO do as well, 

1191
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,200
broadcasting. 
On the GT3 events, we want to 

1192
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,760
engage an audience. 
We want them sitting in the edge

1193
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:18,440
of their seat because, well, 
they can see what we're talking 

1194
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,760
about. 
We need to add something more to

1195
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,800
make the broadcast. 
Yeah, yeah, get in there. 

1196
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,720
Get in there. 
And. 

1197
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:30,280
That's my job to sometimes be, 
let's say, not outspoken, but 

1198
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:34,440
let's say my observation would 
be. 

1199
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:40,400
But he's right. 
Yeah, Touching on that John, 

1200
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:45,960
about being that 4th, right, Say
as you see it kind of approach 

1201
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,400
that you had with the commentary
in your time in the BTCC, what 

1202
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,080
were your views of the driving 
standards at that time? 

1203
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,280
I mean, I think the driving 
standards were getting worse as 

1204
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,040
they are today because the 
nature. 

1205
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,720
Of the supporters became more 
competitive, there was more 

1206
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,160
physicality came into it. 
I mean, I remember on one 

1207
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,760
occasion, I mean Tim Harvey, God
blessed him. 

1208
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:11,440
I mean everybody loves him. 
And Tim was driving for Peugeot 

1209
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,240
and I think it was an open power
I. 

1210
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:18,000
Remember, Tim collided with 
somebody and I thought was just 

1211
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,920
was a blatant, inappropriate, 
blatant driving, I said. 

1212
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:28,720
I called him Rude Boy Tim just. 
It was a spontaneous comment, 

1213
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,480
but. 
Actually, you probably couldn't 

1214
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,240
say that today because somebody 
couldn't take offence at it. 

1215
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,120
You know, they've got to think 
about the world we're living in 

1216
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:40,680
now in 2024. 
Can you make that kind of 

1217
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,440
observation? 
It was like Tim just punched up 

1218
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,800
Tim London. 
That's a very funny, rude boy, 

1219
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:46,640
Tim. 
Yeah. 

1220
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,400
I think. 
I think it was Will Hoy he hit, 

1221
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,080
if I'm not mistaken. 
I remember you saying Johnny. 

1222
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,640
Poor. 
Will, everybody said Will, 

1223
01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:00,920
didn't they sadly lost us like 
many, many years ago. 

1224
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,120
The will was a really nice man. 
I mean a thoroughly nice person 

1225
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:05,800
and. 
It was Ireland Bend, wasn't it? 

1226
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:07,880
Was he down at Ireland Bend? 
Ireland Bend? 

1227
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:10,760
Yeah, just took. 
The bank to 1. 

1228
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,400
Of the one of those boss rude 
boy. 

1229
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,240
Next I will quote. 
I will quote. 

1230
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,200
That I think there's still a lot
of contact takes place. 

1231
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,920
I mean that's. 
It's because the cars are so 

1232
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:28,840
evenly matched and tires and 
everything, and if you had let's

1233
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,360
say a number of tire 
manufacturers where you get a 

1234
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,800
variety of options and grip the 
levels and whatever. 

1235
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:38,040
But because everybody is now, as
I call it, prescribed, how how 

1236
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,680
you overtake and the horsepowers
are very similar, the car 

1237
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:42,360
performances are not a million 
miles away. 

1238
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,800
It's more line down to the 
individual drivers abilities but

1239
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,320
there's still, I mean somewhere 
like brands, indie circuit, I 

1240
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,560
mean how they find a way around 
one another I don't know. 

1241
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:57,280
I mean and even it's highly, 
highly competitive and there are

1242
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:01,520
some really good drivers, really
good drivers and there's some 

1243
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,120
that are good but not at the 
level of the highest and it's 

1244
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:06,720
inevitable you're going to have 
contact. 

1245
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,360
There's a difference between the
contact, maybe that I'm thinking

1246
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,880
about, which might have been 
premeditated, and contact, which

1247
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:16,120
is more a function of just five 
into one wouldn't go. 

1248
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:21,319
Yeah, I remember actually and 
and it's funny you mention, you 

1249
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:24,680
know, saying as you see it and 
all that, I'm midway through and

1250
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,800
we're going slightly past Super 
Touring now into that first year

1251
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,279
of the the BTC touring regs 
where Phil Bennett and Jason 

1252
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:36,080
Plato and Steve Super all got 
themselves into very, very 

1253
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,080
physical battles to the point 
where I think Bennett was banned

1254
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:43,600
for for a meeting at Orton Park.
And I remember, even I remember 

1255
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:45,920
at the time thinking, oh, John's
not going to like any of this. 

1256
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,880
The coverage you and Charlie 
made, it almost felt as if we 

1257
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:53,160
knew you and we knew what you 
would like and what you wouldn't

1258
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,560
like and you've scolded them all
for. 

1259
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,399
And it was some pretty poor 
standards at that. 

1260
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,840
Point the thing that I don't 
like what I would call 

1261
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:04,560
deliberate or premeditated. 
Crash, bang, wallop, driving. 

1262
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,399
I don't think that's I just 
don't like that. 

1263
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,319
And the other thing I dislike is
track limit abuses. 

1264
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,200
And I know that that's a part of
motor racing in general, not 

1265
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,600
just in touring cars. 
So that's another thing where 

1266
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,800
drivers just simply they ignore 
what I would call the track 

1267
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,720
limit. 
And track limits have been 

1268
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,200
altered or the curbing has been 
reduced effectively because 

1269
01:09:26,399 --> 01:09:28,160
circuits are now dual used 
circuits. 

1270
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,800
And if you're going to have 
British super bikes or motor GP 

1271
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,439
or whatever, and touring cars 
and Formula One, you have to 

1272
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,279
have something that works for 
all the disciplines. 

1273
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:42,720
But as a consequence, it's led 
to a lot of what I call I don't 

1274
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,240
like it, just inappropriate 
driving. 

1275
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:50,319
I took pride in my general, my 
time on race tracks where you 

1276
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:54,400
had quite significant curbing on
the inside of a corner and some 

1277
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,520
cases on the outside as well, 
and you ruled those curbs at 

1278
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,280
your peril. 
And there's a penalty for doing 

1279
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,240
it because if you ruled it 
badly, you might spend or you 

1280
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:07,280
might have an accident and now 
they've got circumstances. 

1281
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:11,120
I mean, I'm glad to see that 
Brands Hatch and other vertical 

1282
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:16,640
John, John and Palmer circuits, 
MSP circuits that they're now 

1283
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:21,640
putting in mechanisms to monitor
track limit abuses and 

1284
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,440
penalties. 
And again, in my series SRO, we 

1285
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:27,560
are doing the same thing. 
So if a driver is taking 

1286
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:31,000
advantage of track limits to 
gain time then that lap should 

1287
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,040
be deleted and if you do it 
regularly then you've got a a 

1288
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,480
penalty which would be added to 
your race time. 

1289
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,880
And I I I encourage that because
I want to see drivers driving 

1290
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,360
within the constraints of the 
circuit, not just thinking they 

1291
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,840
can get away with it because 
they think they can get away 

1292
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:48,560
with it or because that's what 
they've grown up with. 

1293
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,800
We've now got a culture of motor
racing around the world where 

1294
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,560
track limits are there to be 
abused. 

1295
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,200
Yeah, look. 
At the circuits in America John 

1296
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,160
you haven't got the the ability 
to do that. 

1297
01:11:00,440 --> 01:11:02,440
You know there's a wall on the 
outside there's a small piece of

1298
01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:03,920
grass that's the outside before 
the wall. 

1299
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:10,600
That's one thing I I did a race 
in Atlanta 2045 E maybe in a 

1300
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,400
portion the LM ALMS championship
Rd. 

1301
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,880
Atlanta no such thing. 
Like you know, you make a 

1302
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:18,280
mistake, you're off. 
It's going to hurt. 

1303
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:19,280
You're going to damage. 
The car, the Rd. 

1304
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:21,120
Atlanta is a fantastic race. 
Yeah, I love. 

1305
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,640
It but no room for error, is it?
Absolutely. 

1306
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:25,680
And that's that's how I would 
like to see. 

1307
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:30,760
But because we've got the dual 
usage of our circuits in the UK,

1308
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,320
but a lot of the major, you 
know, FIA Grade 1 circuits are 

1309
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:37,240
used for motor GP or for World 
Super Bikes or whatever. 

1310
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:41,280
So you can't have the kind of 
curbing that I remember from the

1311
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,960
70s or maybe into the early 80s 
because in the case of water 

1312
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:48,840
cycles of a rider who's done 
that curbing can inflict major 

1313
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,440
injuries, life changing 
injuries. 

1314
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,280
So everything's now been 
flattened out. 

1315
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:58,840
And what I mean, MSV have put in
little strips on say the bottom 

1316
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:02,000
of Graham Hill Bend. 
So if you get all four wheels 

1317
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,840
off the racetrack, you'll flip 
the monitor and that will 

1318
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:07,880
indicate that your abuse, track 
limits and that lap then will be

1319
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,280
the time will be disallowed. 
Or if it's in a race and you 

1320
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,560
keep doing it, then you have a 
time added to your race Time. 

1321
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,320
I would encourage more of it 
because I think, you know, I'm a

1322
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,400
hanger on a flogger at heart, so
I would like to see it being 

1323
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,960
reigned back in and I want to 
see drivers driving with what I 

1324
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,800
was called pride. 
Just I want to see the best 

1325
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,200
drivers winning. 
I don't want to be the driver 

1326
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:34,360
that is the most abusive driver 
on the racetrack winning. 

1327
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:40,120
Well John, I think recently I I 
read, I think the F3 or F4 races

1328
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:44,120
with the one match championship 
in Abu Dhabi or recently that 

1329
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,800
that race there in the winter, 
that every single car in the 

1330
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:49,840
race got excluded for track 
limits. 

1331
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:51,560
I'm not surprised. 
Right. 

1332
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:53,720
So there was, there was a race 
but no result for anybody. 

1333
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:57,320
It's. 
A It's a It's a culture that's 

1334
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,040
been allowed to. 
To to grow and then you're 

1335
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,360
trying to put the genie back in 
the bottle, which is affect what

1336
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:06,200
you're doing very difficult and 
all you can do is then start 

1337
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:09,480
throwing up penalties. 
But if the penalty becomes a 

1338
01:13:09,480 --> 01:13:12,560
story rather than the race, you 
know it's. 

1339
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:14,160
I don't know how you're going to
put it. 

1340
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,120
I don't know how you're going to
change it, but I think it should

1341
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,120
be. 
There should be penalties and 

1342
01:13:19,440 --> 01:13:23,440
even Formula One is now being 
seen to implement penalties. 

1343
01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:27,240
Certainly in qualifying or in a 
race, if you exceed track limits

1344
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,640
by more than a certain number, 
you'll get a time added or you 

1345
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,320
get qualify. 
You get your time deleted and 

1346
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,920
it's. 
I'll tell you if you and Formula

1347
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,400
One, if you're on a set of 
tires, you've got one set of red

1348
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,520
tires left for qualifying. 
Your chance to get into the race

1349
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,880
into the top ten, let's say Q3 
and your abuse track limits, 

1350
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,640
your time is taken away. 
That's a lot of penalty for you.

1351
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,440
That's a penalty for the team. 
It's not just, it's the team. 

1352
01:13:51,480 --> 01:13:53,640
So you've not just penalized 
yourself, you're penalized 

1353
01:13:53,640 --> 01:14:02,120
yourself and the team. 
For this series of stories from 

1354
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:04,840
Super Touring, we are delighted 
to be teaming up with Brands 

1355
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:08,680
Hatch to give away 2 tickets to 
Super Touring Power 2 which is 

1356
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,400
being held at the famous circuit
on the 29th and 30th of June 

1357
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,360
2024. 
The award nominated event was a 

1358
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,160
smash hit last year when it's 
debut edition transported fans 

1359
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:23,200
back to the 90s and this year's 
event will once again celebrate 

1360
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:26,400
one of touring car racing's most
fondly remembered eras. 

1361
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,920
To enter the competition, just 
answer the following question, 

1362
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:35,360
who was the first ever guest to 
star on Stories From Super 

1363
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,880
Touring? 
Send your answers to Pod at 

1364
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:43,520
1990s btcc.com and we'll 
announce the winner on a later 

1365
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,560
episode this series. 
Meanwhile, let's get back to the

1366
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:54,880
episode. 
So John, just finally, so super 

1367
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:57,240
touring, you know the era that 
we're speaking about now, you 

1368
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:01,800
know we we so many years on, 30 
years later, what's so fondly 

1369
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:05,560
remembered by you in anything in
particular that stands out all 

1370
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:07,960
these years later? 
I suppose it was in many ways. 

1371
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,280
It was a big family. 
It was a very nice place to 

1372
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:17,800
work. 
It was touring car racing coming

1373
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:22,000
into a technological era, which 
you know, it had never 

1374
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,960
previously been in, both in 
terms of the engineering but 

1375
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:29,120
also drivers coming in from 
other disciplines because, you 

1376
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,680
know, they weren't available or 
they couldn't find seats and 

1377
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,400
other championships which they 
maybe would have liked to have 

1378
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,480
been in. 
And touring cars represented a 

1379
01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:38,440
very good opportunity to make a 
living. 

1380
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:41,560
Look, if you're a professional 
racing driver, your job is to go

1381
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,960
out and earn a living. 
And that's whether it's some 

1382
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:49,440
touring cars or GT or Elms or 
LMS or WEC or whatever it is. 

1383
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,440
If you're a racing driver, get 
out and make a living. 

1384
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:56,280
And you know, if I had the 
opportunity at the end of 83, if

1385
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,360
somebody came along to me and 
said John in 84, do you want to 

1386
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,000
drive in World Touring cars or 
British Touring cars or whatever

1387
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,000
it is, I would have considered 
it because it would have been a 

1388
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,760
part of what I would have 
thought was, you know, Formula 

1389
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:09,360
One's finished, that part of my 
life's gone. 

1390
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,960
So it would be a gradual taper 
done. 

1391
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,200
In saying that, it doesn't mean 
it's anything less. 

1392
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,520
I wouldn't have taken it any 
less professionally than I did 

1393
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,000
in my Formula One career, but I 
would have been happy to do it. 

1394
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,120
I would have thought it would 
have been a great certainly in 

1395
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:27,120
terms of your UK profile and 
presence would have been 

1396
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:29,880
fantastic, yeah. 
And then that's again like what 

1397
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,400
you said, I've described that 
drivers around the world coming 

1398
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:34,800
from different disciplines, the 
money that was involved for the 

1399
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,560
manufacturers and that's why the
Super Touring era was the Super 

1400
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,840
Touring era. 
It's never been done since, and 

1401
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,840
it will never be done again. 
I mean, I don't know, just 

1402
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,160
listening to what you said, I 
think you're probably right. 

1403
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:53,680
I think that to to see where we 
are in 2024 to go back to. 1989 

1404
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,520
nineteen. 
Whatever, I don't see that 

1405
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:57,840
happening. 
TCR Is it TCR? 

1406
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,440
Yeah. 
Yeah, or World Touring Cars. 

1407
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,240
I mean, I remember World Touring
cars way back in the 70s and 80s

1408
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,120
when that was something was, you
know? 

1409
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,360
Today, is that motor racing? 
Is that a world championship? 

1410
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:13,160
Is that where they were? 
And I don't want. 

1411
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,720
I know that there are some very 
good drivers and ONE World 

1412
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,920
Championships. 
Rob Huff Fantastic race driver, 

1413
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:23,520
but 20 lap races for a world 
championship anyway. 

1414
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,480
Listen, that'll cause a few 
ripples. 

1415
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,960
Don, just finally from me, we've
talked about the Mansell race 

1416
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,920
before in 98, which I Remember 
Me saying on the season review 

1417
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,760
video with Charlie was, you 
know, one of the best races 

1418
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:40,720
you've ever seen, let alone have
the chance to comment later on. 

1419
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:43,520
Where do you rank that and what 
are some of your most memorable 

1420
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:45,560
TV moments? 
Oh yeah, God. 

1421
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,720
Yeah, there must be so many. 
Well, there probably are. 

1422
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:51,320
I mean, I should have done a bit
more research on all this. 

1423
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:59,160
I I I think that, you know going
into touring Cars 9898 was a new

1424
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:04,560
discipline, a new arena and 
ingratiating myself, that's what

1425
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:07,840
I'm going to say into that 
championship and not looking for

1426
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,600
my shoulder. 
I'm doing a touring car comedy 

1427
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:13,080
and I'm watching the Grand Prix 
on another TV in the corner. 

1428
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:19,320
In fact that what I was doing 
was what I wanted to do at that 

1429
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:21,960
time. 
And I I I felt very fortunate, 

1430
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:25,320
very, very privileged to have 
the opportunity to for the three

1431
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:28,440
or so years that I did it with 
Charlie and we made a 

1432
01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:30,400
contribution. 
I think it was a there was a 

1433
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,800
healthy and days possibly of 
touring cars. 

1434
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:35,360
You've said that amongst 
yourselves. 

1435
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,040
So I mean, I don't know whether 
we'll ever see those days 

1436
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:40,880
return, you know, never say 
never in this world. 

1437
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,560
I mean, I don't know what's 
going to happen and Alan 

1438
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,160
Garvey's been around for a long 
time. 

1439
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:49,080
If Alan stays in control for 
another 10 years, or maybe he 

1440
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:51,520
won't, I don't know what Alan's.
It's up to Alan really. 

1441
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,520
He is an answer of of what's 
going to happen in British 

1442
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:58,000
Touring cars. 
Yeah, he he certainly he was the

1443
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,280
Bernie of the of the touring 
cars at the time, wasn't he? 

1444
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,280
The way he put the deals 
together. 

1445
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,800
Yeah, the ringmaster. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1446
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,320
The ringmaster, you know, smart 
man, smart man. 

1447
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,040
I mean, I'm having to deal with 
all the egos. 

1448
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,400
You know, there's a lot of egos 
in the paddock and any former 

1449
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:16,760
motorsport Eagles and he was 
able to handle it all. 

1450
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,560
And but Bernie would have called
Allen, got he's a good operator,

1451
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:24,840
gets the job done. 
He gets the job done. 

1452
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:25,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Because. 

1453
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,320
Alan stood. 
No shit off anybody I've been in

1454
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,160
the back of that Toker bus for. 
Yeah, and they were, they were 

1455
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:33,520
in front of, there were some 
big. 

1456
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,240
Names His toy. 
His toy. 

1457
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:36,880
Remember that? 
This toy. 

1458
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:38,880
Yeah, yeah. 
There were some big names to 

1459
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:41,160
deal with at the time as well 
because you had Tom Wilkinshaw 

1460
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:46,320
at Volvo, you had Frank and 
Patrick, Frank and Patrick at 

1461
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:48,560
Williams. 
You know, you had Dave Richards 

1462
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,160
at Pro Drive. 
There were some big egos there 

1463
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:53,360
too, These. 
Guys, these guys are serious 

1464
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:54,480
guys, yeah. 
That would have been more 

1465
01:19:54,480 --> 01:19:55,720
difficult to deal with than the 
drivers. 

1466
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:58,360
The amount of. 
Cash that was flowing over along

1467
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:03,160
with the protests, you know, so 
to to you've been disqualified 

1468
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,160
or penalized. 
And straight away, TDM will be 

1469
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:07,600
down there. 
The team manager will be down 

1470
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,320
there. 
But there's bundles of notes. 

1471
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,680
Look, those guys are serious 
players. 

1472
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,480
Yeah, no mistake. 
Every one of them is a serious 

1473
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:18,360
every duty player. 
Well, I think we're going to 

1474
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,280
wrap it up there, John for 
today, so. 

1475
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:23,040
I've only done it in hours 
broadcasting. 

1476
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:26,600
Already. 
And I just like. 

1477
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:27,760
Warming you up for your next 
one. 

1478
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:29,760
Warming you up. 
I'd just like to say, John, 

1479
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,560
thank you so much for spending 
some of your valuable time with 

1480
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,120
us today on Stories From Super 
Touring. 

1481
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,680
Not at all. 
And this is the unexplicated 

1482
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:39,320
version. 
In other words, this is the 

1483
01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:43,280
warts and all. 
One, be my guest. 

1484
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:44,920
Thanks. 
Thanks John. 

1485
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:46,240
It's been great. 
Thanks, John. 

1486
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,040
Meanwhile, we'll be back next 
week to look at the inaugural 

1487
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:53,080
BTCC Night Race that was held at
Snetterton in 1999. 

1488
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,200
And for that we'll be joined by 
motorsport journalists Andrew 

1489
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,760
Chairman and Andrew Golby. 
Until then, we'll see you next 

1490
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:00,920
week. 
Goodbye.