1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:18,170 Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's 2 00:00:18,170 --> 00:00:20,090 episode of Stories from Super Touring. 3 00:00:20,490 --> 00:00:23,170 We've got no Adam Jones this week, but joining myself and 4 00:00:23,170 --> 00:00:27,290 Levi is another BTCC legend, although this time one from the 5 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:30,960 other side of the pit lane. His team is also celebrating 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,480 their 40th anniversary this year, so I'd like to welcome Ray 7 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:36,680 Malik to Stories from Super Touring. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,680 Ray, how you doing? Are you well? 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,800 I am very well, thank you. Yeah, yes, it is, it is quite a 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,920 milestone for us to to be celebrating the 40th anniversary 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,720 of of RML. And yeah, it's, it's it's been 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:59,880 an opportunity to sort of reflect on those 40 years and 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,680 jog my memory about, you know, quite a few things that happened 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,520 during that period. And the Super important part of 15 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,320 that was super touring throughout the 90s. 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,240 Absolutely. You know RML very much a project 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,560 of your own hard work. But it is true that the Malik 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,040 name looking back can be found in racing as far back as the 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,400 1930s with your with your father, Major Arthur Malik. 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,360 So is it fair to say that the racing bug was already in you as 21 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,000 a child and and and you were immersed in it already from a 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,080 very young age? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,360 It's, it's, it's in my, in my DNA. 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,680 So when I was from the time I was in short trousers, all I 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,880 wanted to do was was to be in racing. 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,320 And well, specifically to be a race driver. 27 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,920 I'd, I'd see my dad driving his, his own cars, cars of his own 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:02:02,360 design and saw how passionate he was about that and how 29 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,200 successful he was. And I vividly remember a race at 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,400 Brands Hatch when I was about 9 or 10 and they had, he had 31 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,720 entered a race in a customer's car which had some problems in, 32 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,400 in qualifying practice, as we used to call it back then. 33 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:21,440 And he started from the back row of the grid and he had a super 34 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,000 race, came through through the grid and got the lead and won 35 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,440 it, got the lead on the last lap and won. 36 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,760 And, and I vividly remember the the crowd on the South Bank 37 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:40,320 giving the traditional sort of horns salute, Tooting their 38 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,920 horns as he went by on his on his lap of honour. 39 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,280 And that that kind of got the goosebumps going on me. 40 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,480 And I thought this is what I want to do. 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,080 And from that moment on, I was just focused on being a race 42 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,160 driver, to be honest. So yeah, it's in. 43 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,040 It's in my DNA. Yeah, as you were saying there, 44 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,840 you were obviously at the time looking at being a racing 45 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,720 driver. Now most of our listeners would 46 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,000 know you mainly for your work with RML in in Super Touring, 47 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:20,120 with Vauxhall and and Nissan. But as you say, you were a 48 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,520 successful racer in your own right. 49 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,800 You won the Grovewood Award in 1971, and at what point did you 50 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,160 think about the engineering side and the design side of things in 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,520 motorsport? Was it always there or was that 52 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:40,040 something that came later on? It it was always there because 53 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,920 that's what drove my dad. Arthur was a, a very gifted 54 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,080 engineer. His qualifications were in 55 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,680 electronics actually, but he understood mathematics very 56 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,120 well. So he was, he was one of the 1st 57 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,280 people to recognise the importance of suspension 58 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,920 geometry and race cars, the importance of things like low 59 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:07,200 centre of gravity, damping theory, those kind of things. 60 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:13,200 So at the time my dad was really getting into that people like 61 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:19,560 Colin Chapman and John Cooper and then Terry, Eric Broadly 62 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,680 were doing similar things. So this is sort of mid 60s. 63 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:32,320 And so I was fortunate enough to witness that and understand 64 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,240 myself first hand where those performance gains could come 65 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,360 from and the importance of vehicle dynamics. 66 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,320 So, yeah, it was, it was from an, from an early age, but, and 67 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:52,400 I was fortunate enough as a driver to be able to utilize 68 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,680 that engineering understanding of the race car in getting my 69 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:05,200 own cars to go faster. So that was, it's not not 70 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:11,040 unique, but unusual in in my era, you know, my, I was growing 71 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,480 up with people like Roger Williamson and Tom Price and 72 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,760 Derek Pearly and people like that. 73 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,120 And I was always fiddling with my car. 74 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,520 I was always talking with the suspension dampers, torsion, 75 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,480 rigidity. They weren't doing that stuff. 76 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,720 They were, they were getting in the car and wringing its neck. 77 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,640 I was doing that, but also trying to optimize and finding 78 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,880 ways of I was engineering a car myself. 79 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:40,400 And that that led me on to creating an RML group. 80 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,080 Yeah. Talking about RML Group and the 81 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,680 creation of it be naturally we're going to speak a bit more 82 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,680 about RM LS involvement in touring cars and Super Touring 83 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,720 throughout this episode, but it would be remiss of us to not 84 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,480 talk about RM LS involvement in sports car racing and Le Mans as 85 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,440 well. Whilst we're looking back at the 86 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,960 last 40 years sort of it in terms of that, quite a big 87 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,600 history there for for yourselves as a as a, as a team. 88 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,720 Any particular highlights across the last 40 years with the Le 89 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,920 Mans and the sports car side of things? 90 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,840 Yeah, in the same way that Super Touring was dominated my life 91 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,760 for for the 90s, Le Mans Group C did in the 80s. 92 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:35,240 Really. So that that came about because 93 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,800 in by, by the early 80s, I've realized that I wasn't going to 94 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,200 make it as a, as a race driver. There's, there's another, 95 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,440 there's an interesting story there about how I thought I 96 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:52,520 might get into F1 in the early 80s, but it but it didn't come 97 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,520 off. So that that wasn't going to 98 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,920 happen. So that coincided with the start 99 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:07,760 of the Group C series, which was sports car series for Lamont and 100 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,920 the World World Championship, World Sports car Championship 101 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,040 with a set of regulations that were were well designed in my 102 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,160 opinion around fuel consumption and efficiency. 103 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,280 So there were no tuning restrictions on the engines. 104 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,800 All the entrants could use what kind of engine they wanted, race 105 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,160 engine, normally aspirated, turbo production based. 106 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,880 It was purely down to using the allocated fuel in the most 107 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,440 efficient way possible. So that opened up an opportunity 108 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,600 for a load of competitors and manufacturers to come into Group 109 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,920 C in the mall in that period and that included Aston Martin. 110 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,080 So coincided with my decision to step down from single seater 111 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,840 racing, Aston Martin had decided to go back into sports car 112 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880 racing in Group C. And I knew the guys asked them 113 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,880 well because I'd done an apprenticeship at Aston after I 114 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,760 left school and I'd done some racing and development work with 115 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,040 the DBS V8 Vantage cars. So I'd always kept in touch with 116 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,080 them. So suddenly I was part of the 117 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,400 Aston Martin Nimrod programme and all sorts of things kind of 118 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:33,640 spun off from there. And yeah, Le Mans became a super 119 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:38,400 important part of my life. I mean, I, I, I didn't ever win 120 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,080 Le Mans. My class, the best I, I got 121 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,800 personally as a driver was to be second in class in Group C2. 122 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,360 We, we won the World Sports Car championship with our car and me 123 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:55,200 driving the cost C2 car with the Austin Rover V64V. 124 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:03,240 That was in 86. And so that that was something 125 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,320 that I was tremendously proud of and very satisfying to do 126 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,680 because that that car was designed by me. 127 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,480 It was, it was my, my, my, my concept, if you like, which is 128 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,400 all all about blow, drag, high efficiency. 129 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,320 And we we won that world championship by a couple of 130 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,840 points after the season long battle with Spice Engineering, 131 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,440 Ray Bellman, Gordon Spice. I think we won by a couple of 132 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:38,520 points or something at Fuji in a very wet sort of typhoon race at 133 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,800 Fuji at the end of 86. So that that was very 134 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:41,800 satisfying. Yeah. 135 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,200 Yeah. Your final drive at Le Mans was 136 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,880 in 1989 with with Aston and after that you retired from 137 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,320 professional driving. Was it nice to be able to start 138 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,840 focusing on the company RML itself and and develop that and 139 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,200 take a sort of like, you know, taking a back seat from the 140 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,880 driving and and just developing your business Was was that was 141 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,600 that the aim? It was a necessity really. 142 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:17,520 I mean, at that time, 89, the second incarnation of the Aston 143 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,880 Group C programme had happened. We've moved on from the Nimrod 144 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,400 programme to a much more sophisticated bespoke design, 145 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,240 the AMR one, which was was really quite, quite 146 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,160 groundbreaking at the time and that we formed a new, a new 147 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,760 business, a new company. It wasn't RML then, although I I 148 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,280 took all my guys and my kit and we had a new factory unit at 149 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,440 Milton Keynes in partnership with Peter Livanos, the then 150 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,440 owner of Aston Martin and Richard Williams who'd been my 151 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,320 team manager at Lamont. And he brought his guys up who 152 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,920 were Aston specialist from from London. 153 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,320 So between the three of us, we, we created a new business called 154 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,440 Proteus Technology, which was specifically to run the Aston MO 155 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,920 1 program. And so I, I was engineering 156 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,000 director of that business and I was racing the car as well and 157 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,920 developing the car. And it became pretty obvious 158 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,560 halfway through that first season that it was too much to 159 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:35,000 do to do all those things. And I needed to concentrate on 160 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,880 the engineering and the car needed that, that the whole 161 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,880 engineering department needed that focus to move it forward. 162 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:52,400 So that that's what happened. But there was then a rule, a 163 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,480 rule change. As you may recall, at the end of 164 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,080 89, it was announced that Group C was going to move away from 165 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:06,920 the fuel consumption formula to what was effectively Formula One 166 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,480 engines normally aspirated 3 1/2 litre B twelves. 167 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,640 And yeah, Aston's good enough for our program. 168 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,760 Couldn't afford to go down that route. 169 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:24,720 So, so the programme was canned and we had to start RML again. 170 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:31,800 Kind of RML Mark 2/19/90. And at this point the British 171 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,200 Touring Car Championship had started developing its own 2 172 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,760 litre programme formula. At what point did you start 173 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,080 looking at the championship and thinking that this is this is 174 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,240 maybe a route we could go down? I can't remember the exact date 175 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,960 it was, it was pretty soon. I mean, so we, we put our heart 176 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:59,440 and soul into Lung Wong and were were left in a very, very 177 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,480 difficult position at the start of 1990 to find a way of keeping 178 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:11,600 the team together to we, we had to find new premises and find a 179 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,920 new income stream. We were fortunate to pick up a 180 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,920 contract with Nissan to look after the development of their 181 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,800 cars for Le Mans for the that was a year that Nissan ran six 182 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:31,440 cars at Le Mans 2 entered by Nissan Japan on Nismo 2 by 183 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,240 Nissan Europe and two by Nissan USA. 184 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,280 And the guys in America knew us and asked us to take over the 185 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,000 prep and development of the cars for them. 186 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:52,280 So that was our first contract post Aston Martin and we got 187 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,280 incredibly close to winning that race. 188 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,160 We did some very good development work with the car 189 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,040 over in, in North America before we we, we brought them over to, 190 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,160 to UK. I've spent about six weeks over 191 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,160 there with, with my guys doing aero work and suspension and 192 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,880 chassis work. And we had a car that that that 193 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,120 should have won. We got on pole first, first 194 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,760 night with David Brabham running on on race boost. 195 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:30,280 The second night, Mark Brundell got pole with that astonishing 196 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,600 lap that you might recall where the the wastegates got stuck 197 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,680 open or something like that. And he did a ridiculous lap, 198 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,680 which was, which was great, but it didn't really help them 199 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,200 towards winning the race. But it was headline grabbing. 200 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:53,440 And so, yeah, that that race progressed and we got ourselves 201 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,880 in the lead fairly early on and we're swapping the lead with the 202 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:04,280 TWR Jaguar that eventually won. But we could, we could see how 203 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,760 much fuel they were using and compare it with us and they were 204 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,320 using quite a bit more fuel than us. 205 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,720 We were running it at a pace that we knew could get us to 206 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,600 4:00 Sunday afternoon at that pace. 207 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,040 And we knew that the TWR car was going to have to back off. 208 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,120 So we, we were feeling very comfortable pace wise and fuel 209 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,440 wise. But at about, I think it was 210 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,560 about 7:00 in the morning, Jeff, I think it was Jeff came in and 211 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,840 he said he could smell fuel. We had fuel in the cockpit and 212 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:44,840 we had a fuel leak and it was deep inside the bag tank and 213 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,680 collector. We tried ripping out the bag 214 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:55,080 tank, but we weren't able to get it fixed. 215 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,560 So we had to retire the car. But the really annoying thing 216 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:08,080 about that was that the three teams, Japan, US and and Europe 217 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,240 were of Nissan teams were were meant to share all their 218 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,760 development information and and we were sending back all our 219 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,760 test day reports. Every time we all this look, 220 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,560 look, this is better, you know, we can find it all. 221 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,600 Did you know that this, the bracket's a bit weak, but we, we 222 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,040 were hardly getting anything back, which puzzled us a bit. 223 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,400 But we thought, well, I've been running these cars for a while. 224 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,400 I suppose they, they know nibbles. 225 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:39,400 But it turned out after the race that Nissan Europe had, in fact 226 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,480 had, had had this fuel tank problem. 227 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,960 It was to do with the fuel collector pot not being properly 228 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,320 secured to the back of the monocoque. 229 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,080 So when there was small amount of fuel in the tank, but a lot 230 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,520 of tank, but the fuel collector was full, the weight was making 231 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,360 it move around. And we we weren't advised about 232 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,000 this and we didn't do enough endurance running to to get it 233 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,200 figured out. So we lost the race. 234 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,319 Nissan lost the race. Nissan should have won that 235 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:18,000 race, should have won in 1990 if there'd been better 236 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,599 communication between the teams. I've gone off on a on a on a Le 237 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,040 Mans. Not at all. 238 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,319 Rabbit hole? I can't remember what the 239 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:27,400 question. Was at all? 240 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,600 Not at all. It's great. 241 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,080 So Ray, your entry into the BTCC came in 1992 with a Curia Costa 242 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,880 and the Cavalier. And how did that deal come about 243 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,960 to run that car that season? Yeah. 244 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:55,840 So after Le Mans in 1990 with with Nissan, we were that was 245 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:01,200 just a short term contract and we needed to to be finding the 246 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,600 next income stream. And we tried a couple of 247 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,440 avenues. We tried creating our own Rd. 248 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,840 car, the RMLGT E40 and that that was quite successful in its own 249 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,320 right. And we were doing subcontract 250 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,160 manufacturing work, but we realized that we needed to get 251 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:26,040 back into serious motorsport. And BTCC was clearly on the app. 252 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,920 Super Touring was attracting a load of manufacturers. 253 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,200 So I saw I was knocking on the door of all the manufacturer 254 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,280 contracts contacts that I had. And that of course included 255 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,000 Vauxhall, who were only just down the road in Luton. 256 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:50,120 And they, they knew us, the Vauxhall Dealer Sport guys, 257 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:56,360 which Vauxhall Dealer Sport was the entity through which the 258 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,680 motorsport funds came. There was a levy on each new car 259 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:07,800 sold in the UK for motorsport. And there was a, a group that 260 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,480 looked at how best to, to spend that money in motorsport. 261 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,720 So they, they, they knew of us because we're not, you know, not 262 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,440 very far from, from Newton and they knew we were keen to, to 263 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:28,240 get into, into BTCC. So we were able to negotiate the 264 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,320 loan of a couple of Dave Cooks cars from the previous year, ex 265 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,400 works Dave Cooks cars. So the deal was if I was able to 266 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,160 find the running costs, Vauxhall dealer Sport would loan me a 267 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,640 couple of cars and engines and we would run the cars. 268 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,640 So there will be no cost to Vauxhall and I was able to 269 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,960 persuade Hugh McKay to put up the budget for David Leslie and 270 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,640 we were able to get a couple of good pay drivers, people like 271 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,880 Alex Portman, Harry Nuttall, Bobby Verdon Rowe I think as 272 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,160 well. So good, good quality drivers 273 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:12,440 with the budget and things like getting a contract with with 274 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240 Dunlop. Dunlop were not kind of flavour 275 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,560 of the month in. BTCC but they knew us well from 276 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:27,000 our previous work with them. So we got a a full supply of 277 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,880 Dunlop tyres and we're we're their development partner. 278 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,880 So we kind of stitched together a deal on a wing and a prayer 279 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,880 and, and went racing. Yeah. 280 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,560 Talking of you mentioned David Leslie there. 281 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,280 I mean, he was a man who was with you at Lamont, he was with 282 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,680 you at Vauxhall with the Curia Cos, he was with you then later 283 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,120 on at Nissan in the BTCC 2. It seems that he was a major 284 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:54,600 part of your career and it's, you know, a special man who was 285 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,880 very clearly and sorely missed. Yes, yeah. 286 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,440 And the other bit you've missed there is not many people know. 287 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,840 David became my works manager at RML. 288 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:11,200 Yeah, after now when was Yeah. So this was, this was after the 289 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:18,440 Nissan program ended and once again in the cycle of things, 290 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,520 we, we were looking for our next income stream. 291 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:27,560 So it was David and we, we picked up a contract with the 292 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:34,400 American Ford Mustang specialist, Celine and I need, I 293 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,640 needed a works manager. And David, would you know, those 294 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,040 of those of you that knew David will will know that he would 295 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,480 always turn his hand to anything. 296 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,600 And at that time that included coming to RML and be responsible 297 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,600 for managing the work. So that was all, all to do with 298 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,560 the facility, the infrastructure, you know, the 299 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:02,240 security, health and safety. David would come and do that. 300 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,120 So yeah, that's the kind of guy he was. 301 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,320 Well, yeah, he really was a special man, wasn't he? 302 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,120 Sorely missed today. Yes, yeah. 303 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,560 You then also in 1992, had a somewhat indirect involvement in 304 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:22,000 that dramatic infamous title decider at Silverstone after 305 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,680 Leslie clashed with Steve Super and Steve I think maybe got it a 306 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,440 little bit wrong and thought it was part of a wider Vauxhall 307 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,560 plan that day to try and get John the title. 308 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,560 Was that was that the case or Steve slightly got that one a 309 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,400 bit wrong with his clash of Leslie? 310 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,480 Yeah, definitely got that one wrong. 311 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,040 Yeah. I mean, I, I don't even remember 312 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,320 that. I really don't remember that. 313 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,040 But there's no way we would have got involved with that kind of 314 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,920 stuff. So I think that's a conspiracy 315 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,840 theory. It's got got some legs there, 316 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,520 but no, it's got no roots really. 317 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,400 Yeah, no, in fairness, Steve has has since said that it was 318 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,120 obviously not the case, but that that was in his mind at the 319 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,360 time. It was like Vauxhall, Vauxhall 320 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,440 are trying to get me. Vauxhall walked me out of it. 321 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,760 Yeah. It's quite, quite, quite a crazy 322 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,800 moment. Did you ever, we're talking sort 323 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,840 of going forward into 93 now and you redeveloped these Vauxhalls 324 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:24,520 from the ground up in 93 and eventually you were regularly 325 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,280 outperforming the works cars of of of John Cleland and Jeff 326 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,400 Allen, which were run by Dave Cook. 327 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,480 Did that ever become an issue at all? 328 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,320 Did did that cause any issues between yourself and Fox or 329 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,520 yourself and Dave Cook with were there, were there any problems 330 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,760 with your performance basically and your race winning 331 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,160 performances? No, no, no, not at all. 332 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,520 No, I mean Box all delighted. So what happened at the end of 333 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:59,640 92 was I approached Foxhall to with a proposal for us to sell 334 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:06,360 those to Ex Dave book cars and use the proceeds towards the 335 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,040 development of a of an all new RML design. 336 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:16,760 And again, the, the proposal was we're not asking for any more 337 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,200 cash then you're running cash. Just if we could use these old 338 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,120 cars, the income from there that will go towards making, making 339 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,760 new ones. And, and we did that. 340 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:35,080 So that, that enabled us to utilise a lot more of our race 341 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,120 car design and development knowledge in, in designing from 342 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,400 a clean sheet of paper. And that included being able to 343 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,720 do a full FEA analysis and construction of the chassis over 344 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,640 the chassis was much more efficient. 345 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,760 It was, it was the torsion of rigidity was better enabled us 346 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,240 to come up with what at the time was a unique front suspension 347 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,960 system where we took the bending loads out of the MacPherson 348 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,240 strut and lower the centre of gravity. 349 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,440 We we shifted the pedals from being typical pendulum pedals to 350 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,720 floor mounted pedals, pulled it together a stiffer installation 351 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:22,160 and lower centre of gravity and we, we work. 352 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,360 We partnered with Extract. Mike Ending, the founder of 353 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:30,520 Extract was a good friend of mine and we've known each other 354 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,040 for a long time. And between us we developed the 355 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,840 first Extract towing card gearbox, which was a sequential 356 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,960 box and that allowed us to lower the lower the engine by about 3 357 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,480 inches, something like that. So it was, it was a major step 358 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 forward. But we, in fact, we work with, 359 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,920 with Dave. Dave got news engineers on that 360 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,800 gearbox because part of the deal with Vauxhall was if we came up 361 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,640 with a new gearbox design, we'd share that with Dave, which we 362 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,840 did. So he he utilized that on his 363 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,440 cars for for 93 as well. Yeah, I. 364 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,280 Do I do remember Murray Walker getting very excited about the 365 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,880 sequential box in the coverage one day, you know, saying this 366 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,040 is incredible. Look, he just goes 1234 and he 367 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,320 was getting so excited about it. Yeah, but I mean, it was such a 368 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,560 game changer, wouldn't it? Yeah. 369 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,560 But it's, but it's weird because motorbikes had used that for so 370 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,600 long. It took a long time for for for 371 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,320 the car world to catch on, really. 372 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,640 But it's all the same principles. 373 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,640 Yeah. But yeah, I was very fortunate 374 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,400 to have my gender into to engineer that lot and and it 375 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,880 would and it worked straight out-of-the-box. 376 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,760 Yeah. And it was in 1993 as well that 377 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,160 the fruit of that work really bore there. 378 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,760 After several near misses, the first BTCC race win came for RML 379 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,160 with David Leslie at Froxton. That must have been quite a 380 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,160 special moment that you sort of finally fully breaking, broken 381 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,240 through in the BTCC. It was, yeah. 382 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,360 I mean we, we got, we've got very close at Pembrey I think it 383 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,240 was. And we had a broken throttle 384 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,880 cable and we'd LED a few races and got on pole as well. 385 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,360 So we knew the potential was there. 386 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:15,880 But yeah, as you know, effectively a private entry 387 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,440 running on a on a wing and a prayer. 388 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,320 It was quite something to beat the people we were beating with 389 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,360 BMW. I mean, that were our nemesis, I 390 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:28,240 suppose. Really. 391 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520 There seemed to be a lot of a lot of contact between the front 392 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,880 of BMWs and the tail back end of David Leslie's Cavalier during 393 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,840 that season. Yeah. 394 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:39,320 Yeah. No, I remember. 395 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,040 Yeah, it was, you were right. It was at Pembrey where the we 396 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,200 were leading in the throttle went throttle cable went brands 397 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,880 you were leading and Vinkelhawk put you off. 398 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,680 Yeah, put David off. And so yeah, you're right. 399 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,840 It was it was almost a case of will it ever happen? 400 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,840 I remember yeah. You get it every time they oh, 401 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,480 come on, because I always like David Leslie and yeah, it was it 402 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,240 was great to see it finally, finally happened. 403 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:02,880 But. Yeah. 404 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,480 Good moment. Yeah, Yeah. 405 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,800 Obviously you built up that you quite the relationship with 406 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,840 Vauxhall and then eventually that led to you getting the 407 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,440 works contract in 94 was just natural progression. 408 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,440 I guess that that that they felt that you were, they were 409 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,840 obviously impressed with the work you were doing that that 410 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,280 you were you were the team to lead them on with the Cavalier 411 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,040 fully as a fully works outfit, that must have been quite 412 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,920 special as well. Yeah, it was. 413 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,800 Yeah. I mean, that's I think what's 414 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:40,200 what sailed it was that box all dealer Sport organized a test 415 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,640 session at Silverstone. It was on on the on the South 416 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,200 circuit with John Cleland driving. 417 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,960 I think it was just John, can't remember, maybe Jeff as well. 418 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,640 So we had our car there and Dave Cook brought along car. 419 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,520 We were running on different tires. 420 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,000 We were on Dunlop. Dave was on Yuck Armour, I 421 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:13,200 think. So John drove both cars with 422 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,240 both types of tire. So he tried the Dunlops on 423 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:25,320 Dave's car and he tried the Yokos on our car to figure out 424 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,640 whether it was the tires that was making a big difference. 425 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:40,760 But he John's conclusion was that the RML car was a bit 426 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:46,840 quicker and yeah, so we got the contract, which was a shame for 427 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:53,640 Dave, obviously, but I suppose that's the way the cookie 428 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,160 crumbles. We were determined to find a a 429 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,640 works contract and as well as Vauxhall, we were talking to 430 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,080 most of the others that that would have, would have been 431 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,680 interested. But it was Vauxhall that that, 432 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,440 that came down in our favour. So, yeah, yeah. 433 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,400 So it's always difficult in in the sport when when someone else 434 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,480 loses out. But that did what happened. 435 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,760 And, you know, we fought like hell to to get a works contract 436 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,840 and, and it's unfortunate that that Dave lost his as a result, 437 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,160 but yeah. Yeah, and and as you say, you, 438 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,080 you, you won that contract and then turn up at Thruxton for the 439 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,600 season opener and Alfa Romeo suddenly we like their 15 fives 440 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,760 with these front and rear wings which they were hiding very well 441 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,920 in testing. Do you remember any of your 442 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,960 thoughts at the time when you see you saw these for the first 443 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,720 time with with the add-ons that were that were on the alpha? 444 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,440 I suppose what I thought was why didn't we think of that? 445 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,920 I mean, it was, it was pretty canny of them, but I, I can't 446 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,560 remember the exact details. It was amalgation where I think 447 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,800 you had to offer it was, I don't know if it was a 2 1/2 thousand 448 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,360 or something. Like that 5000 I think. 5000 was 449 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,960 it right? OK, yeah. 450 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,680 So it was quite a commitment really from Alpha, but 451 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,320 nonetheless very effective. And it was a loophole in the 452 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,760 regs. So there wasn't anything we 453 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,200 could do with it because those are the regs and that's what we 454 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,720 have to get on with. Peter Riches saw Peter Allen and 455 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,600 there's probably a bit some lobbying from us that we needed 456 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,680 to find some way of of levelling this this playing field, which 457 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,080 is what happened to 95. And it was 1995, as you 458 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,200 mentioned there, Ray, that the FIA mandated standard Aerospec 459 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,680 for all the cars, the area. They did seem to transform the 460 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,040 Cavalier a bit and give it a new lease of life in its last year 461 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:04,440 of competition, didn't it? Well, it did, yes, and we were 462 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,960 very fortunate from our sports car experience both in the wind 463 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:14,600 tunnel and coast down testing. But we understood how to get rid 464 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,520 of lift and generate downforce on the front of a full with, 465 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,680 with nose, which is effectively what a touring car has got. 466 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,000 And there are some tricks, if you want to call it, or 467 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,800 processes, processes that that that we, we learned in sports 468 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,600 car racing that were directly applicable. 469 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,800 And yeah, we've. So we grabbed those new 470 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,200 regulations with relish and it was, it was very effective. 471 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,720 The rear wing was less, less scope for being, you know, 472 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,080 individual if you like or or finding an edge. 473 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,360 But on front wheel drive touring car where you need the down 474 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,160 forces or the get rid of the lift is on the front axle 475 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,600 obviously because all traction and braking is going through 476 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,120 there. So we were we were at a test 477 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,800 down. I think it was Pembrey and the 478 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,120 the works Mondeo was there with what we knew was going to be 479 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,440 some alligated front bumper. So I took the opportunity of 480 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,680 peeking underneath and I could see that it was really quite a 481 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:35,240 basic interpretation of the rules, which pleased me no end 482 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,440 because I could, you know, these, these moments stand out 483 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,120 in my life, weren't of significant things. 484 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,760 And me poking my head under the front of the Mondeo splitter was 485 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,360 a significant moment because we knew they had a fabulous engine, 486 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,680 but they'd lost the opportunity with that humiliated front 487 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,720 splitter to get the, the downforce that was that was, was 488 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,080 potentially there. And I actually said to myself, 489 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,280 well, we got them beat just by looking at that. 490 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,760 So it's, you know, it's, it sets the hairs on the back of my head 491 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,199 going just just thinking about it now. 492 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,440 But yeah, these these things happen as a result of a lot of 493 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,679 lot of hard work and experience and a team of good engineers 494 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:27,639 which I was fortunate enough to build around me. 495 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,600 So when that the blood, sweat and tears that go into creating 496 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,679 that team and that these ideas comes to fruition, it's, it's 497 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,520 quite special, really, Yeah. Yeah, John spoke to us about the 498 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,880 first time he drove the 95 Cavalier with the the front and 499 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,360 rear arrow on on, on the car at Brands Hatch. 500 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,159 And I quote, he said to Phil Barker, wash it down, stick it 501 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,440 back in the truck, we're going to win this championship. 502 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,720 Typical John, but were you ever as confident as that going into 503 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:03,560 the season? Well, yeah, I, I knew we had a 504 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,400 much faster car than the year before. 505 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:11,720 Yeah, I, I thought we were odds, odds on definitely. 506 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,800 But as ever, you know, it's, it's, it's a battle and we 507 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,200 battled on through the season and we, we were constantly 508 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,520 finding new ways to making the car a bit quicker. 509 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,000 It resulted in a fabulous championship win. 510 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,440 Out of interest, we were. We recorded an episode a couple 511 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,720 of weeks ago looking back at the season opener 1995 at Donnington 512 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,800 and there was one car, it was Hamish Irvine. 513 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,560 The independent was running without the splitters in the 514 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,840 front and front and rear wing. How much quicker do you think 515 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,600 the front and rear arrow made the cars in in seconds Do you? 516 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,160 How much do you think it made the cars quicker as a guess? 517 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,920 A second. Yeah. 518 00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:00,680 Interesting. Yeah, yeah. 519 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,760 And obviously it would have made sort of tie away better. 520 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,680 So throughout the race, the consistency would have been 521 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,400 better as well. I mean, this wasn't, it wasn't 522 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,360 night and day, but a second, you know, in towing car racing, it's 523 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,200 night and day, isn't it? Yeah, it is. 524 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,800 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 525 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,840 In 95 as well, James Thompson came in as John Cullen's 526 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,880 teammate for that year. They've both been on the podcast 527 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,040 with us previously and said that the partnership was tough 528 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,720 between the two of them at times. 529 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,360 Do you remember sort of if it was hard to manage and keep both 530 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,360 of them happy, obviously at 2 very different points of their 531 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,880 career as well, weren't they? So is that a struggle for you to 532 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,880 manage them or? I don't know if it would. 533 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,840 You could describe it as a struggle. 534 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,560 It was a bit frustrating at times, but with John, I mean, 535 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,880 you couldn't really manage John anyway, so you just had to grin 536 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,080 and bear it, to be honest. You know, John's, John, we all 537 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,560 know exactly what you get on the tin. 538 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,440 So and that was fine because you do know what's what you're 539 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,680 letting yourself in for. But yeah, James was, was, was 540 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,200 was young and his, his accident at Knock Hill was awful for all 541 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,880 of us. You know, he did well to bounce 542 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,240 back from that. But we just, we had what we had 543 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,520 a young, up and coming very, very fast driver who was a 544 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,400 threat to John and John being John. 545 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,560 But yeah, we got on with it. Yeah, that that year was the 546 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,880 year that Williams came into the championship as well. 547 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,120 And we're undoubtedly a thorn in your side for you that year. 548 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,400 Was that just a sign of how big the championship and the the 549 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,040 Super Touring Formula was getting at that point that, you 550 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:50,400 know, the Formula One lead team at the time got involved in in 551 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,520 what was the national championship, which is crazy to 552 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,040 think of now. Yeah, well, yeah, it was, I mean 553 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,080 it was that's, that's part of what what made Super Touring so 554 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,400 fantastic because we had super engineers, world class drivers 555 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,840 and good enough budgets to, you know, squeeze the performance 556 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,360 out of the out of the regulations. 557 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,360 So yeah, it was a fabulous time for for Super Touring. 558 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:21,240 Did you did you get to have a look at the Cavalier whilst 559 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:23,920 you're at Brands Hatch for Super Torian Power 2 recently? 560 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,960 Because it was it was there running wasn't it the the title 561 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,560 winning Cavalier? Did you get get a chance to 562 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,440 reminisce and and look back at the car? 563 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,720 No, I don't think I did on that occasion. 564 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,680 No, I did. I did have a look at our 93 car, 565 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,360 93 car from was it was at Silverstone at the festival. 566 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,320 But I do look at the cars every now and then and yeah, you know, 567 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:52,080 they're like old friends. Obviously, you know, those cars 568 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,200 I was still very much involved in on the drawing board. 569 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:02,080 But yeah, the 939495 cars, they were, they were the last cars 570 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520 that I was actually designed parts for. 571 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,160 So and I, so I was very responsible for, yeah, I was 572 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,800 responsible for the whole whole concept of those cars. 573 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,760 And yeah, a lot of a lot of the detail. 574 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,520 So yeah, they're very much old friends, yeah. 575 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,160 In 95 as well it wasn't just Renault that were the title 576 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,840 protagonists with your cells, it was also Volvo who were being 577 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,280 run by your old Le Mans adversaries from 1990. 578 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,640 At TWR there was a highly contentious meeting wasn't there 579 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,360 at Brands Hatch where both your cells and Volvo ended up 580 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,680 protesting each other after on track collisions. 581 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,360 Did it feel like at that point if it was becoming a very tense 582 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,200 title fight or was that just part of competing against some 583 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,320 some very quick outfits at the time? 584 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,600 I don't remember that specific example, but you know, we've, 585 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,080 we've never, never been hesitant about putting in a protest if we 586 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,640 felt that the right thing wasn't being done. 587 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:13,120 If whether it's Stuart's decisions about the driving 588 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,800 infringements. Or technical interpretations, 589 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,680 you know, from, from our point of view, you need to play, play 590 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,280 by the rules. So if it's, if something's been 591 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,160 misinterpreted or, or overlooked, then it's 592 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,920 appropriate, you know, to, to do what's to do what's necessary. 593 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,800 TWR. We're quite, quite a special 594 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:51,240 competitor really, Yeah. But not only in 95 were you 595 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,520 obviously battling for that title with a Cavalier, but 596 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,920 you're also hard at work developing the Vectra for the 597 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,480 following year. Is that hard to sort of be 598 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,880 racing one car and developing a completely different model 599 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,800 exactly at the same time? Well yeah, I think. 600 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,640 I think it must have been because the the vector never did 601 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,480 perform as we expected. It was there was some carryover 602 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,160 from from Cavalier, but there was a lot that was different 603 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,720 about it. It still puzzles me why we 604 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,920 weren't able to get it quite as quick as it should have been. 605 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,040 It did. It did coincide with a a rapid 606 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,080 phase of development for RML. So at that time, we, we were 607 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,080 responsible for all of GM's Super touring cars around the 608 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,680 world. So we were supplying all the 609 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,040 global regions with not only the cars, but customer support. 610 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:57,040 And we and we began the Astra rally program, F2 rally car with 611 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,080 Opel. So there was a lot going on. 612 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:07,920 And yeah, the Vectra didn't didn't really cover itself in 613 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,080 glory. I think we just got the 11 win. 614 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,320 I think that, yeah, you probably don't have to remember better 615 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,400 than I do, but it was a disappointment, yeah. 616 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,320 That race win that came in 96, as you mentioned, was at 617 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,680 Sneceton, James Thompson getting the win there. 618 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,920 I'm not sure if I ever mentioned it you'll you'll remember it, 619 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,200 but wasn't without controversy because Thompson sort of had a 620 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,360 collision and maybe not Colin off a bit on his way to victory. 621 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,440 Do you remember much that incident and maybe what was said 622 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,880 between John and James after the race, especially considering it 623 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,440 was obviously to get the first win for the Vectra, quite a big 624 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,240 moment for for both of them to have done that. 625 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,240 I don't remember. All I remember was we won. 626 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,920 That's all I remember. Yeah, I really don't. 627 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,920 I don't remember that the. Vectra was never really a winner 628 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,520 in in anybody's hands as a regular race winner anyway. 629 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,560 Was it the design concept of the Current that just limited its 630 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,600 success? That that, you know, that nobody 631 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,520 could really get that winning as as regularly as a Cavalier did? 632 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,800 Well, an interesting thing is that the the Cavalier, the 633 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,600 development of the Cavalier was very much down to David Leslie. 634 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,600 So in my, in my sports card years and before that I did all 635 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,240 of the development work myself. And we talked about the time 636 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:37,440 when I decided to step back from professional driving and 637 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,760 concentrate on engineering. And at that time I, I handed the 638 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:48,720 baton over to David for the key role as development driver on AS 639 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,280 on the SNA one, AMR one, because I, I trusted him so much. 640 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:54,800 We were on absolutely same wavelength. 641 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,240 We grew up together in international racing and sports 642 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,240 car racing. So we had a great rapport and 643 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,560 trust. So it was, it was great that 644 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,480 when we moved into touring car racing, David was able to, to 645 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,920 join me and he, he developed the car. 646 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,320 Interestingly, I, I tried driving the car a couple of 647 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,720 times and I just could not get my head around front wheel 648 00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,200 drive. This concept of flooring the 649 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,720 throttle when the back end comes out, just just, it's completely 650 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:30,920 alien to me. So I've never been able to drive 651 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,360 a front wheel drive car fast. But so David was the constant 652 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:42,040 thing with starting with the 92 cars, then the 93 and 94 cars. 653 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,640 He worked with me to develop the, the suspension, steering 654 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,320 the and the kinematics. One of my regrets was that I 655 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,480 wasn't able to take David with me into the works Vauxhall 656 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,680 contract. Vauxhall had their own drivers 657 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:03,240 in, in John and Jeff. So we went over to take David, 658 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,200 David with us. But that Cavalier had David 659 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:12,480 through and through and I didn't have that benefit with the 660 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,400 Vectra. John, by his own admission was 661 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,320 not a development driver. Yeah, I'm paid to drop to race 662 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,240 cars, not development. And so I think, I think we 663 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:30,920 really missed that, that link of not having David when we when we 664 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,360 when we did the Vectra. And that that of course changed 665 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,800 for us the following year when we moved to Nissan because I was 666 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,880 able to get David back in my team. 667 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,160 And yeah, that that paid dividends for the Nissan 668 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,640 programme over the next three years. 669 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,840 Yeah, he was well known as a development driver, like you 670 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,960 say, he got the the Vauxhall winning, he got the Honda 671 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,200 winning and then took the first Nissan win as well for you guys. 672 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,400 So yeah, he's, yeah, his, his reputation as a development 673 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,280 driver was second to none. On the subject of that return 674 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,160 for Nissan in 1997 with yourselves, how did that deal 675 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,240 come about you? You obviously also had Anthony 676 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,320 Reed join the team for that year as part of that deal. 677 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,680 Was it, was it an easy deal to to bring about to have them back 678 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,400 or feel like a natural step after your time with Vauxhall? 679 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,680 That changed over to Nissan was was to do with the development 680 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:31,920 program. I was frustrated that I didn't 681 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,960 have as much influence on the driver lineup as I've had 682 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,360 previously. And Alec Paul approached me 683 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,400 about the opportunity to run the Nissan program and I said I'll 684 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,240 do it if I can dictate who or say who's who's going to be in 685 00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:53,680 the cars. And I chose David and Anthony. 686 00:46:54,600 --> 00:47:00,760 Anthony had driven the the Cavalier in Japan in I think it 687 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:09,160 was not probably 9394 and he was, he was super at working 688 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:16,280 with me on, on feedback from, from what's going on in Japan. 689 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,800 He would always, after every test session he would, he would 690 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,800 do me a written report with his notes about what he'd been doing 691 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,840 with dampers and tyres and that kind of stuff. 692 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:30,840 He was on Michelin tyres. So yeah, I had a very good 693 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,320 relationship with Anthony. So for me, my my dream driver 694 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:40,520 lineup was Anthony and David. So we were able to get that and 695 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,200 that's that's why we moved over from this end. 696 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,640 Yeah. And you had a, you had a year of 697 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,760 development with the with the Premiera before you hit the 698 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,160 round running in 98, as you say, as we mentioned, David took the 699 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,280 first couple of wins in the first half of the season. 700 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,360 And then Anthony went on this amazing run in the second-half 701 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,720 of the season, didn't he, with them winning race after race. 702 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,560 He actually calls the 98 season the zenith of Super Touring and 703 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,320 says it's the highlight of his career. 704 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,200 Is there a similar feeling for yourselves? 705 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,400 It, it's, it really was a high point of the series and, and and 706 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,280 the era. 98 yeah, I think 99 was better because we we dominated 707 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,120 everything. Yeah, that's fair. 708 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,920 Yeah, yeah. So 9098, what do we, what do we, 709 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,000 what did we win in 98? We. 710 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,560 You won the manufacturers. Manufacturers, but not the 711 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:37,680 drivers. Not the drivers. 712 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:38,800 You didn't win the. Drivers. 713 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,000 I think we. Might have. 714 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:41,840 I think we might have won the teams as well. 715 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,240 Yeah, I think you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 716 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,600 So not winning the Yeah 99 was the was the. 717 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,680 Yeah. And of course, in 99, Anthony 718 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,080 left you. Yes. 719 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,240 So was that a disappointment? Obviously you've just said it 720 00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:04,800 was your dream driver lineup. Was it a shame that he was then 721 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,160 leaving to go to Ford for 99? Well, we had a three-year 722 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,760 contract with Nissan. We knew that so did so did, so 723 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,520 did Anthony. So there was an opportunity 724 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,160 there for him. So we won't understand in his 725 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,600 way. And Laurent Aiello was available 726 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,040 and. And that was a fabulous change, 727 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,880 yeah. Talking of, of Nissan's sorry 728 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:37,120 Levi in, in 98 that, that was the first year that there was 729 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,280 another Nissan, but there was a red coloured one that started 730 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,800 sort of getting involved within the worst cars and, and, and 731 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,240 yeah, getting amongst it away from the independence and, and 732 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,480 obviously that was Matt Neil in Team dynamics. 733 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,720 It was obvious that he was running year old cars. 734 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,440 What was the relationship like with you guys and, and Matt and 735 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,960 dynamics? Because at times he could be a 736 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,520 real thorn in the side of of all the works teams. 737 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,080 We, we were fine with it. I mean, we've always been an 738 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,000 organization that has supplied customers with cars and and we 739 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,560 always like to see the cars doing well. 740 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,240 For us, that was a reflection of the fact that we were building 741 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,040 good cars. That's very true. 742 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,400 Yeah, Yeah. But it was great, great to see 743 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,120 them as and we and they had a lot of kind of understanding for 744 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,240 their position to for a private team to be, you know, mixing 745 00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:34,840 with the big boys is always is always good for. 746 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,840 Yeah, for the team themselves, but for the sport, yeah, yes. 747 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,000 Absolutely, yeah, 1998 as well as the year that hit stops were 748 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,520 introduced to the series and the feature race. 749 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,200 Can you remember sort of how much extra work that had to sort 750 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,920 of created for yourself as the team and the amount of practice 751 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,800 that your Nissan team took perfecting that pit stop? 752 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,120 Because that was, that could be in some of the races, a massive 753 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,680 difference in terms of who ended up being towards the front at 754 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,880 the end of the race. Yeah, well, it did. 755 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,880 It introduced. Yeah, another, another level. 756 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,880 Yeah. I'll vividly remember our 757 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:19,720 practice sessions at the local stock car circuit, the 758 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,160 Brayfield. Is it a quarter mile stock car? 759 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:25,280 I think it's probably quarter mile. 760 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,320 Yeah, Brayfield circuit. So we used to go there and 761 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,240 practice up. So that was an opportunity of 762 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:34,600 going out and coming back in the pits into into a hot stop 763 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,800 without, you know, having to Silverstone something like that. 764 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,560 So yeah, we did lots of laps of Brayfield in and out, changing, 765 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:50,160 changing tires rapidly and yeah, perfecting the the angle of the 766 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,880 on the wheels and the nuts and the guns and all that kind of 767 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,040 stuff. But all part of the teamwork. 768 00:52:04,700 --> 00:52:09,260 As you say, you fondly remember 1999 and as we move on to it, 769 00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:14,840 was Laurent only the only ever choice for you to replace 770 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,240 Anthony, or were there a few others that you were considering 771 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,480 giving the drive to? No, I think it could pretty 772 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,640 pretty quickly came down to the wrong. 773 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,160 Turned out to be the right choice. 774 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,200 It did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 775 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,480 It was quite amazing how quickly he settled into the team. 776 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:38,080 He brought his own race engineer with him and I interviewed them 777 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,440 both in a, in a, so, you know, in a fairly formal way, but I 778 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,880 was, you know, because that's important to kind of set the 779 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,200 scene, if you like, with anyone coming in, whether it's an 780 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,800 engineer or a driver, that they're part of the team. 781 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,880 And they did well. Well as as a, as a team. 782 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,720 It was huge competition, of course between David and and 783 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:09,400 Laurent, but Ludo and Laurent did integrate very well with us 784 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,800 and that was important. You know, taking work was such 785 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,400 an important ethos at Iron L. Yeah, yeah, it was impressive. 786 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,440 Leron's debut season, his only season in in the BTCC. 787 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:27,760 He he he comes in, takes ten wins and done well, you know, 788 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,040 Nissan dominate the championship and he takes the title. 789 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,120 Did you expect we? Not. 790 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,760 Really. No, no, it's, it's, I think 791 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,920 having spoke to him at Brands Hatch recently, even he was 792 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,000 quite shocked at how quickly he settled into the championship. 793 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,360 And it's was it nice catching up with Lauren at Brands Hatch 794 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,080 since you'd seen him, but. No, I haven't seen him for quite 795 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,120 a while. So it was good to catch up with 796 00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,400 him and for, yeah, for him to be reflecting on, on just how 797 00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:04,280 precious that 99 season was to him, how important it was to 798 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,800 him. So that was nice. 799 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,760 But that year also coincided with a change of base model on 800 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,280 the Nissan. We went from independent rear 801 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,720 suspension to a beam axle. And a lot of people were 802 00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:21,160 concerned about that, about how it's going to ride the bumps. 803 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,520 But I've grown up with live axle race cars. 804 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:33,920 All my dad's cars were were live axles and so I so I knew the 805 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:39,680 inherent potential of the of the beam rear axle because you don't 806 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,280 have any Canva change or toad bump steering. 807 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,440 So it gives you quite a few more opportunities actually. 808 00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,240 So if you if you use it properly. 809 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:57,560 And then there's the Nismo guys were very, very involved in in 810 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,280 the detail integration of that rear suspension into the race 811 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,680 car. That 1999 season was also the 812 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,520 last year of your relationship with Nissan in the British Tour 813 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,880 and Car Championship after they were due at the end of the 814 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,440 season. You already mentioned that the 815 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,520 contract was a three-year contract from 97.3 to 99. 816 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,040 Was there sort of any plan or or any knowledge that that could be 817 00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,000 extended or was it always sort of known that it it would be the 818 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,200 three years and the results she got after that were the results 819 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,600 she got after that I. Was always clear, it was, it was 820 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:40,920 three years. We we did, we did speak to 821 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:49,520 Vodafone quite a lot about providing some kind of support 822 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,920 on a private tier basis. So there was the potential to 823 00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:58,520 carry on using those cars with that sponsorship. 824 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:07,200 But it it, it didn't have enough traction and yeah, so it, it 825 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,200 didn't happen. That's a shame. 826 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,880 That's really interesting actually that that those that 827 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,200 you could have continued into into 2000, how do you think the 828 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,720 Nissans would have fared against the 2000 competition and that in 829 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:24,480 in particular that Monday that had the huge budget that it 830 00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,640 supposedly spent on it. I'm I'm sure we we would have 831 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,160 been competitive again. Fine, yeah. 832 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,000 Yeah, yeah, sure, we would have been. 833 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,240 Fast forward in a few years now obviously that was the end of 834 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,720 Super Touring, but your involvement in touring car 835 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:51,560 racing didn't end there. You you had a brief stint with 836 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,560 Sayat before another well known operation that one of the 837 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,800 operations you're most well known for probably in in this 838 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,880 world is it's your time with Chevrolet in the world touring 839 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,520 cars. I love those cars. 840 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,200 I love the Super 2000 cars. They were great, the beautiful 841 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,640 cars. Again, I'm sure fond memories 842 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,280 for you because you ended up dominating the World 843 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,720 Championships for for several years with those cars. 844 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,600 We, we did. It was a fabulous time for us 845 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,040 and you know, fabulous contracts. 846 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:29,360 So that came about through our old GM Con contacts and in 847 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:35,280 particular Nick Riley, whose name might be familiar to, to a 848 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,920 number of people. Nick Nick passed away earlier 849 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,880 this year, sadly, and it was his memorial last week up in up in 850 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,480 near Liverpool. But Nick had been the MD of 851 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,680 Vauxhall when we were winning in BTCC. 852 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:56,880 He then went on to be be head of GM in, in Europe and Asia 853 00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:02,120 Pacific and I'd always kept in contact with Nick about what was 854 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,160 going on. He he was a big, big believer in 855 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:10,280 motorsport being a great way of promoting brands. 856 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,480 And we used to meet up every year at the Geneva Motor Show 857 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,600 and chew the club and talk about what was going on. 858 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:27,320 And WTC suddenly came on on the scene in 2005 and that coincided 859 00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:32,840 with Nick wanting to develop the Chevrolet brand globally outside 860 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,680 of North America. So it was a a beautiful fit, It 861 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:42,520 was a great fit and Nick knew us well. 862 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,880 He used to spend quite a bit of time up in Wellingbury, had a 863 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,040 house house there, so he used to pop in from time to time. 864 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,760 So he knew exactly about how the nuts and bolts of RML worked. 865 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,400 And we were able to do a deal effectively on a handshake for 866 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:05,000 us to take full responsibility of all the operational elements 867 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,720 of designing, building, developing the car, choosing and 868 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,040 managing the drivers and the engines as well. 869 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,200 And that was, that was something we, we, we never had in any of 870 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:22,680 our other contracts. We we with the Nissan amp box or 871 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,120 there were all those elements that we didn't have full control 872 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:33,640 over. So it was a very clear cut set 873 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,240 of responsibilities. We we went racing and the 874 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:42,400 Chevrolet marketing people leveraged the, the, you know, 875 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:48,520 success. So it was, it was, it was, yeah, 876 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,960 very satisfying and a very efficient way to run a race 877 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,600 programme. When when you get outside 878 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,120 influences, very often in motorsport you get marketing 879 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:04,160 departments who have their own ideas about choice of drivers or 880 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,560 even, you know, what you should be doing with development and 881 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:09,320 where you should be spending your money. 882 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,240 And that can just in, in my experience, that's caused 883 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,680 unnecessary friction and a bit of lack of direction sometimes. 884 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:24,320 But with Nick Riley and the contract we put together, we had 885 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,440 very clear objectives and a decent budget. 886 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:33,040 So we just gone on with it and yeah, very proud of being able 887 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,440 to go head to head with the likes of BMW again and beat them 888 01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,920 fair and square, yeah. So it was also around that time 889 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,440 when you were running the Chevrolet programme in, well, 890 01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,600 touring cars, that you also submitted an application to be 891 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,920 one of the new manufacturers in Formula One ahead of the 2010 892 01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,360 season. Was that process like, because 893 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,240 it's, it was, I don't think we've really ever seen it before 894 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,520 or since where you've had multiple manufacturers on the 895 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:07,240 promise of a budget cap apply to be in the sport and, and the FIA 896 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,240 essentially chose to, you know, accept which ones they wanted. 897 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,880 I mean, what was the work that had to go into that process and 898 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,200 and sort of was it disappointing when that that didn't quite go 899 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,400 your way or did you expect that maybe some other applications 900 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,920 would be considered to be better applications in that process? 901 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,240 Yeah. So this this sort of happened 902 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,400 over quite a short period of time. 903 01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:36,120 But yeah, it was 2010. We've just won the World Touring 904 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:42,640 Car Championship with Chevrolet. And as ever, I was talking to 905 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,800 Nick Riley about what other opportunities there might be. 906 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:54,760 And this one came up in Formula One where Max and and Bernie 907 01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,200 were obviously concerned about the number of entries and they 908 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,920 needed to encourage some new newcomers to come in. 909 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:08,600 So the idea of the of the budget cap came up and as I remember 910 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,240 rightly, yeah. So the budget cap cars would be 911 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:18,760 allowed to run with some slightly different regulations. 912 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,400 I can't remember exactly. It was slightly different arrow 913 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,080 might have been different weights or something, but there 914 01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,040 was. If I can't even remember what 915 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,320 the budget cap numbers were, you might from your notes. 916 01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,160 F 140,000,000. 40 million, right? 917 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:35,080 OK. So yeah. 918 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:37,840 So yeah, if you're ever come up with. 919 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,240 So the basic idea was if if, if you're going to go racing on 40 920 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:45,920 million and you're going to try and compete against Ferrari. 921 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,400 I don't know what they were on at the time, 200 million. 922 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:53,400 Well, I don't know, but against unlimited budget then the FIA, 923 01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,320 we're going to give you some breaks to enable you to be 924 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,200 competitive. So I talked to Nick about that 925 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,400 and he said, yeah, that sounds, that sounds interesting. 926 01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,240 Let's, let's see where this can go. 927 01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:14,400 So that's that's what encouraged us to put an entry in an 928 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:20,440 application. So we put in an application and 929 01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:24,720 that was seriously considered by Bernie. 930 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:37,720 But fairly soon that budget cap of 40 kind of disappeared and we 931 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,880 realized that actually this was not going to not going to work 932 01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,640 for us. So yeah. 933 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,720 And looking at the performance of the three teams that did come 934 01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:53,440 in compared to the rest and, and and they were never really as 935 01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,160 you say on a on a fair footing and didn't last for very long. 936 01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:57,960 No. Well, they didn't. 937 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,120 I'm sure they didn't have any any breaks at all, no? 938 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:05,320 No, and probably do you do you look back and think, yeah, 939 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:11,560 probably best avoided. Yeah, yeah, I think so. 940 01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:18,560 I mean, yeah, yeah, Formula One is, yeah, to get involved in 941 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,480 something like that. Now, in retrospect, it would 942 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,520 have been what was Bernie's book? 943 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:33,440 The Piranha Club, wasn't it? So obviously, as we said at the 944 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,120 start of the show, it's 40 years now of RML. 945 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,040 What, what, what does, what does Ray Malik do now? 946 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,840 What do you do these days? What do you are you, are you 947 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:45,720 heavily involved in RML still? I'm not. 948 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:47,080 Heavily no. No. 949 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,840 You've passed on management to your son, I believe. 950 01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:51,240 That's right. Yeah. 951 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:58,680 So yeah, I am, I am retired now. I still, obviously I still have 952 01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:03,520 an interest and I'm an ambassador for RML and the brand 953 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:08,240 and enjoying, you know, enjoying that role without the 954 01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,840 responsibility of getting the budget in and, you know, 955 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,000 building and keeping the team together. 956 01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:22,840 So I'm I'm doing ball racing, I'm enjoying my former junior 957 01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,280 racing a lot. And my wife and I are taking the 958 01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:31,080 opportunity to do all the sorts of things that we've had to kind 959 01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,520 of, you know, put to one side. But it's a, it's a pleasure for 960 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:41,520 me to see RML going from strength to strength again. 961 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,760 You know, we've had some, some difficult times, difficult 962 01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:49,040 years, but right now it's in a fabulous place. 963 01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:55,280 We, we don't rely just on motorsport anymore. 964 01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:00,400 And the whole Motorsports seen as a business has has changed so 965 01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:06,080 much since since we we were doing all our winning. 966 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,920 And yeah, so you need a different business model and the 967 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,520 business model now includes motorsport. 968 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:20,000 We retain our links with BTCC through the continuous supply of 969 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,600 the chassis and suspension, steering parts and that kind of 970 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,640 stuff and support all, all the BTCC events. 971 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,760 So there's, there's always an RML presence with our truck and 972 01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:39,000 spares. We've got a new sports car on 973 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:44,240 the in the design stage at the moment which will be hitting the 974 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:51,640 track probably later this year. So motorsport is still very much 975 01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:58,560 part of our DNA, but EV is, is a hugely important part now. 976 01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:06,800 So battery build and development and battery management is 977 01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,720 something that's core of our business and that that really 978 01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:16,080 came about through our work with Nissan at Lamont with the Z odd 979 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:20,680 car 0 emissions on on demand. So we created that whole 980 01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,600 powertrain, which was an internal combustion engine, 1.6 981 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:30,280 litre, 3 cylinder, very, very light and efficient, but backed 982 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:35,560 up by an EV system. And we're, we're still, that's 983 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,880 still the only car to have done a racing, racing lap at the mall 984 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,480 on, fully on EV power alone. No one else has done that. 985 01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,600 So, so it was off the back of that that we developed the EV 986 01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:52,280 business, which is an important part of the diversification 987 01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,600 that's that's happening now. We've got one final question. 988 01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,120 We're normally joined by a third Co host, Adam Jones, but he 989 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,840 can't make it this evening and he's wondering, looking back at 990 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:09,320 the Super Touring era of touring car racing, is there 1 moment in 991 01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,360 particular that you have it as a favorite moment? 992 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,920 I think it was probably clinching the the drivers 993 01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,800 championship in 95 with John. Yeah, yeah. 994 01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,840 Ironically, that is 2026 years to the day. 995 01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,479 It's what? Is it really funny? 996 01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:31,560 No 29, Yeah, there. We go, oh right, OK, we'll 997 01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,240 celebrate that then. Yeah, it's, it's, it is on this 998 01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,000 day that you you won at at Alton Park. 999 01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:41,200 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that, I mean, that was, 1000 01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,520 that was a combination of yeah, a lot of hard work. 1001 01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:50,720 And it's not, it's not just the winning on on track, it's it's 1002 01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,880 being able to share that with the rest rest of the team. 1003 01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:58,240 You know, I had some fantastic engineers, you know, the likes 1004 01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:05,000 of Phil Barker and Stuart Ailing and Junior and Cooper and yeah, 1005 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:11,160 so many good guys that, you know, we grew up together and we 1006 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:12,880 strove together and we and we won together. 1007 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,640 So winning that first championship was a combination 1008 01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,680 of of all that hard work and yeah, very satisfying. 1009 01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,160 We've taken enough of your time up already, Ray, and we'd just 1010 01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:29,160 like to say thank you so much for coming on Stories from Super 1011 01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,680 Touring this evening and sharing your valuable memories with us. 1012 01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:35,439 Well, it's been a pleasure and thank you for the opportunity. 1013 01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,479 Thanks. And as always, we'd like to 1014 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,880 thank you guys as well at home for listening. 1015 01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,120 Next week we'll be back with another episode looking back at 1016 01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:48,600 the 1993 Bank Holiday meeting at Brands Hatch, where Paul 1017 01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,680 Radisich took his first BTCC win for himself and for the Ford 1018 01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,160 Mondeo. It was also a pretty iconic 1019 01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,120 victory for Ford in general in Touring cars as they took their 1020 01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,520 250th win. Photographer Greg Denton will be 1021 01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,680 joining us for that one, so make sure you tune in next Monday for 1022 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:08,200 more stories from Super Touring. Until then, we'll see you next 1023 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:09,080 week. Goodbye.