1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:17,610 Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's 2 00:00:17,610 --> 00:00:20,210 episode of Stories from Super Touring. 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,120 Now, this week we've got a guest that's worked on the other side 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,960 of the pit lane, and we all know how much you listeners enjoy 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,280 hearing stories from the other side of the pit lane, So I'd 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,800 like to welcome Brad Joyce to Stories from Super Touring. 7 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,080 Brad, thanks for joining us this evening. 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,520 How are you doing? I'm good. 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,680 Thanks, Alex. Yeah, yeah, very good. 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:41,400 Thank. You. 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,480 It's great that you've decided to come on the show with us 12 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:48,000 today. How did you first get into? 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,200 What was what sparked your interest into racing in the 1st 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:51,680 place? Is it? 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,080 Am I right in thinking you raced yourself at first? 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,440 Yeah, I didn't. Well, originally my dad raced, 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,800 so from a very young age I was around, I think I first went to 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,640 Silverstone at 7:00, so. And then I had a bit of karting, 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,760 ran A5 turbos and then I had to get a proper job so. 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,880 And was it something then that you always thought that's what I 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,520 want to work in? Was that very much the aim early 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,080 on? Yeah, I mean the aim early on, 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,080 like many a young lad is to be a racing driver. 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,360 But as that that that that didn't happen and the next best 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,200 thing I felt was to work in it. And and I quite early on 26 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:37,760 identified that race engineering was the was the bit I would 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,480 enjoy the most. Yeah. 28 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,320 And was there always an intro? We obviously this is stories 29 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,280 from Super Touring, so we're obviously going to focus on the 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,280 the very much the touring car side of your career. 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,440 Was that was that championship? Was that discipline a name? 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,640 Were you already a fan of the of the discipline and it was 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,200 something that you thought maybe I'd be really interested in 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:05,960 getting into, I think. It, it was parts part what a a 35 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,880 name, but also part circumstance, because in that, 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,080 that period of sort of 1990 to 2000, it was the strongest 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,720 championship in the UK really. And it offered the, the most 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,480 development opportunities. And it, it was just such a big, 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:29,080 a big series that that you kind of gravitated towards it and it, 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,800 and it also brought you in, yeah, it was providing the most 41 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,320 jobs in UK motorsport other than F1, so. 42 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,160 Yeah, so it makes sense. And really, So what? 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,880 What were your first steps in the championship then? 44 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,600 I had a small brief part in with a driver called Lawrence Bristow 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:58,000 in 92 and then in 909394 I worked with Charlie Cox in Group 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,920 N and followed him into touring cars and ran in in Ford Mondeo. 47 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,400 Yeah, we we talked to Charlie about his time in the series as 48 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:15,040 a racer himself on the podcast here, and it was always 49 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,400 startling just how little budget you guys were having to run 50 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,560 effectively a a fully specced super tour on. 51 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,360 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember, I think in 52 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,360 Brands Hatch is, I think it was his second race. 53 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:38,200 He finished fifth in the wet. And part of the thing was that 54 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,960 we're having like you can in Formula One, you had slicks, 55 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,760 inters and wets. We didn't Ford any rims for the 56 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,960 inters. So you could either go wet or 57 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,880 slicks. And fortunately, the full wet 58 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,120 was the was the way forward. Yeah. 59 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,680 And that race, as you write, Charlie finished fifth, which 60 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,720 was the best finish for an independent at that point. 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,800 Yeah, that was the high of the season. 62 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,160 And what was shortly to follow was very much the low of the 63 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:06,120 season. Yeah. 64 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:07,800 What? What do you remember about that? 65 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,360 That weekend at Throxton, that big shunt that obviously 66 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,240 destroyed the car that you were working on? 67 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,880 Yeah, I mean a lot really, because it was a big, a big part 68 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:25,280 there was we'd we'd recently got that car from Andy Rouse. 69 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:30,840 It was World Cup winning Paul Ruddesich car the previous year. 70 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,160 And we, I think that, I mean, what happened was the rear 71 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:42,680 brakes stuck on as he went into the chicane at like 150 mile an 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,160 hour or something. And Thruxton been Thruxton. 73 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,920 As soon as the back end stepped out, it just barrel rolled the 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:56,960 car And the I, I remember the ambulance went off to to try and 75 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,200 get to him, but unfortunately he'd actually gone over the the 76 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,120 fencing and was outside the circuit in a ditch. 77 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,000 So the the ambulance had to come back out, go outside the 78 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,480 perimeter of the of the of the actual circuit and the spectator 79 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,640 area and and go and rescue him. So it was, it was a pretty awful 80 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,680 time really from that, from that point of view. 81 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:25,720 But yeah, it was, yeah, it, it, it did, as you say, destroy the 82 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,080 car. We did actually. 83 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,520 Afterwards we built a new car, a hatchback. 84 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:39,000 It was the first hatchback car. And yeah, it did it, it was, it 85 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,520 was, yeah. Whilst it was a little bit of a 86 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,800 tough time, obviously being a privateer and having to rebuild 87 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:52,400 a new car, it was also quite a learning curve for me because we 88 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,560 we fitted a new roll cage and you know, I was building arches 89 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,920 and we had to manufacture new subframes and everything. 90 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,080 So we did everything from the from scratch as such, which was 91 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,240 good. Yeah. 92 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,560 It's quite unusual for an independent team to be doing 93 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,280 something like that when normally the norm would be, as 94 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,520 you say, you picked up a car from Andy Roes. 95 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,640 Yeah, Yeah. So it's a tough learning curve. 96 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,760 Yeah, yeah. And we, we kind of thought we 97 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,040 could do a few things better and cheaper. 98 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,120 So yeah, basically we, we did it. 99 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,160 And I think he did the last half of the year or or so. 100 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,360 But he, he wasn't quite himself. He did hit his head very hard. 101 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,640 But in the, in the accident. So there was a not quite as 102 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,600 sharp probably as he, as he, as he had been prior to that 103 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,200 accident. He was really quick. 104 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,720 And when I ran him in Group N, we won the championship both 105 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,880 years and National DGT Championship as well. 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,880 So it was it was a quick guy. Yeah, the talking quickly about 107 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,440 Group N those fours that you ran, there were beautiful cars. 108 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, now you see them for all 109 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,920 sorts of prices. Yeah. 110 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,920 Exactly, Yeah. Yeah, I used to get to test it 111 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,360 because Charlie was so busy. He had his own business and, 112 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,680 and, and, and he was working for radio stations and newspapers 113 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,880 and all sorts. If brakes needed bedding in or 114 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,400 we were doing, we used to go to Chobham and do boost runs to, 115 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,240 to, to try and improve the power and, and the and the delivery. 116 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,440 I got to drive it myself. So that was quite enjoyable. 117 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:38,760 Oh, that's good. Yeah. 118 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,880 Did you ever get to drive the Super Tour or not that lucky? 119 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,040 Not that particular one, only small. 120 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,840 The odd lap in in in when I was at W Surrey. 121 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,400 So you mentioned W Surrey there that that's where I remember you 122 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,840 from because Charlie called you out on the coverage. 123 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,200 I don't know if you know that there's we're we're jumping a 124 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,880 bit here, but it's when Craig Beard is leading at Knock Hill 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,960 and and and it cuts to the pit wall and and there's you, you're 126 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,800 talking to Craig and Charlie calls you out. 127 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,480 And then so was there where did, where were you between working 128 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,360 with Charlie then and W Surrey? Was there anywhere in between? 129 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:31,960 Yeah, so I did, I did. I went to W Surrey in 1996 and I 130 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:38,520 was a race mechanic #1 mechanic and then 97 team manager called 131 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:44,480 Malcolm Sweatnam that was there. He promoted me to kind of data 132 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:50,640 engineer and damp engineer. So and then 98 I became a race 133 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,920 engineer. Yeah, so W Surrey, obviously led 134 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,800 by the legendary Dick Bennett's. There's a man who's done it all 135 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,560 in motorsport there, isn't it? That must have been quite and it 136 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:03,800 must be quite an experience working for somebody like Dick. 137 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,280 It it really was. Yeah, yeah, I mean, he's he, he, 138 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,320 yeah, like you say, he's, he's been involved in in it for so 139 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,160 long. I I still odd occasions see him. 140 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,280 You know, he may be and and always say hello and and, and 141 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,800 yeah, we have the odd chat about his current racing or, or or or 142 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,960 or the past times. But yeah, that was it. 143 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,760 It, it was it, it was a good, a good team to learn from at the 144 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,360 time and and progress. Yeah. 145 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,840 It seemed, certainly in the early days of the West Surya and 146 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,400 the Ford programme, it very much seemed that there were a lot of 147 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:48,160 different groups people all in putting into one car. 148 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,880 Did that, did that end up being the best way of going about it? 149 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,640 Because there were lots, there were lots of thoughts that 150 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,800 possibly too many cooks sort of thing and too many people 151 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,640 getting involved and it meant that the car wasn't as great as 152 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,880 it could have been. Yeah, I think those early days, 153 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,040 I mean, yeah, you're probably right there. 154 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Those early days, I think the first year was a shoe ball car 155 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:21,200 and then it went Reynard for a couple of years and then 156 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,320 Prodrive took it over and and and Dick got the Honda deal. 157 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,480 But even under the Honda deal that car was again manufactured 158 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,720 elsewhere. So, and that when you have the 159 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,160 different, different companies involved, yeah, there is a, 160 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,400 there is a, a difficulty in managing all of that. 161 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,480 But also the manufacturer themselves in, in, in both Ford 162 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,680 and, and in the days of Honda, they want reports. 163 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:57,240 So you're, you know, you're having to report to, to all 164 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,280 sides and all sides are feeding in. 165 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,440 And so it it probably does slow the process down a little at 166 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,960 least, yeah. One of the one of the drivers 167 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,800 that you work with well you mentioned you were you were at 168 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,720 Ford in 97 when Will joined the team. 169 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,920 Will Hoy was teammate with Paul that season and obviously will 170 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,280 no longer with us. What sort of driver was Will 171 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,560 like because he such a seen such a popular member of the paddock 172 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,800 and and nobody has ever seemed to have a bad word to say about 173 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,640 Will. Yeah, yeah, he was. 174 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,560 He was a really nice guy. I did. 175 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,040 I did race engineering when Mansell was in the other car. 176 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:46,640 So Will's engineer, Will Phillips, he he moved over to 177 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,680 the Mansell car and I, I engineered Will, Will Hoy. 178 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,560 Yeah. He, he was a really nice guy. 179 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,840 Real gentleman. Very quick in the wet. 180 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Yeah. And he'd and he'd obviously been 181 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,360 doing it for a long time. He'd he'd, he'd had some great 182 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,800 success. But yeah, he, he was, he was a 183 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,920 really nice guy, like you say. And I'm not surprised you never 184 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,160 find a bad word to say. No, he was, he was, he was 185 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,680 lovely as, as, as I remember myself. 186 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:20,560 But you mentioned 98 and obviously that high profile 187 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,800 programme that Ford started running in 98. 188 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,960 You know, the, the, there was talk that Nigel was not Mansell 189 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,640 obviously was coming at first to do some testing for the, for 190 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,880 the, for the team. And then it was announced that 191 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,800 he would do 3 rounds as well at brands Donnington and and 192 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,400 Silverstone. What was the buzz like around 193 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,280 the team? When when? 194 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Because sort of like him or loathing that Nigel is a 195 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,920 superstar, isn't he? Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. 196 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,000 Yeah. I mean it, it was obviously a 197 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,560 huge thing for that, for the team. 198 00:12:54,560 --> 00:13:00,600 And and as I remember rightly probably doubled the gates or 199 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,200 more. And by the time he he turned up, 200 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,520 I think, although it was maybe I can't remember, but it was as 201 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,240 you say, possibly announced in two parts. 202 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,080 We always knew the testing was for the racing. 203 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,360 So it was always known within the team that he was going to do 204 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,880 those three races. And obviously driving those 205 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,440 front wheel drive cars is, is a really difficult thing if you go 206 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,400 from majority of your life driving a rear wheel drive car, 207 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,000 those front wheel drive front engine. the Super Touring days 208 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,920 were very difficult to adapt. You saw with a lot of the single 209 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,040 seater drivers. It took him, yeah, over a year 210 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,240 at times to to really get into it. 211 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,960 And he he had a quite a steep learning curve. 212 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,280 He had to adapt very quickly. And because he's so high profile 213 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,080 and been success so successful, it's it there was a lot of 214 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,320 pressure on to to to to see him quick. 215 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:18,720 But I remember he he was strung a little bit, I think in 216 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:26,240 Donnington, but in the one shot when he used to go back out in 217 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,600 reverse order, I think, if I remember right. 218 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,640 And he was third. So he qualified third because 219 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,200 the next car out chipped a load of oil dam and Donnington. 220 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,960 And and then I think that that particular race was for the the 221 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,200 what that maybe they called it a Sprint race. 222 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,080 At the time, that's right. The Sprint, yeah. 223 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:56,160 And he had a terrible start and went to the back, maybe had an 224 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,720 accident. I think yeah, he did. 225 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,360 But then. But then the next race where he 226 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:05,680 started at the back in the wet next minute, I think because 227 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,400 Will, Will, who was really quick in the wet in the other car, the 228 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:15,440 car I was running, he went out and, and, and at one point 229 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,320 Nigel's come all the way from the back to lead in the race 230 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,880 and, and, and in the wet. And he would just start at the 231 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,280 pit wall thinking how has he done that? 232 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,520 How, how has he managed to do that? 233 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,680 But it was quite incredible how he how he did that. 234 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,920 So I think that was probably the highlight of of that particular 235 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,520 campaign, you know, of where he drew. 236 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,720 But yeah, it was it was fantastic to see. 237 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,600 Absolutely. And that one by pure chance to 238 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,680 win the live races on BBC as well. 239 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,760 And I think Charlie and John Watson on the commentary said at 240 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,960 the time it was the best motor motor race they'd ever seen bar 241 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,800 none. Because I should say he came 242 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,120 from the back all the way up to the front and was so close to 243 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,240 winning it. But you mentioned obviously the 244 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,760 wet that Monday, especially in that year, obviously Will won at 245 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,600 Silverstone in the car in the way as well. 246 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Why was it so good in the wet? What was Were there any certain 247 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,200 characteristics of the car that just meant in the wet it was a a 248 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,720 real, real beast? Yeah, there was AI mean 249 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:26,640 nothing's 100% confirmed because you don't really test that much 250 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,000 in the wet. But the, the kind of the, the 251 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:36,400 takeaways I got from running cars later on, it had quite a 252 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,560 forward weight distribution because then the forward engine 253 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:49,360 was the V6 and a bit heavier and had quite a low roll centre as 254 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,560 well at the front, which had in the wet and, and it was quite 255 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,000 soft. So it, it had a combination of a 256 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,320 few things that that that quite possibly helped to attraction, 257 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,599 which on a front wheel drive car is a, is a positive thing in the 258 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,160 wet. It was, yeah. 259 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,760 It it, it definitely had more performance in the wet versus 260 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,000 the dry as just as you say. Yeah, but as you said with the 261 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,079 races, with Nigel wasn't there, You work with Craig Baird for 262 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:23,599 that year. What was Craig like as a driver 263 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:25,760 to work with? He, he, we've, we've had him on 264 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,000 the on the show before and he's, he's a real gent, a really, 265 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,800 really nice fella. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 266 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,000 No, he, he was really nice. Yeah, he was really, really 267 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,160 good. The, the, the difficult thing 268 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,400 for Craig was that it was his first year in, you know, the UK 269 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,480 and, and, and, and, and in Super Touring. 270 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,440 And then when the Nigel Mansell thing came in and he was going 271 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,000 to have to step aside for those 3 rounds out of probably about 272 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:03,080 14 maybe at the time it, it, it kind of destabilised him a 273 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,560 little bit. I think it, it did make things a 274 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,720 little more awkward for him. But yeah, he, he personally, he 275 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:16,240 was a really nice guy and, and he, he had some good races and, 276 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:21,680 and I think had he been, had he had a second year, he would have 277 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,640 really come on. Yeah, no, he that was that was 278 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,240 the thing he said is that he'd hoped that very much 98 would 279 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,560 have been a learning year for him and that 99 he would have 280 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,400 pushed on a little bit more. But his last race in the series 281 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,920 was actually at Knock Hill, which we mentioned earlier, 282 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,840 where again, with the wet weather, he ended up leading for 283 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,920 a fair chunk of it. And as I say, you starred on the 284 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,560 BBC coverage. It looked like you were shouting 285 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,240 on the radio at him that Derek Warwick was all over the back of 286 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,840 it. Yeah. 287 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,000 I mean we, we, we made one very good tyre choice I think at the 288 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,720 beginning, which meant we were leading. 289 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,320 But then at at some point we needed to bank that, which would 290 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,880 have meant we didn't win the race really, to be honest. 291 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,560 But we did need to come in and and change again. 292 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,920 And in fairness, we didn't, we didn't do that when we we 293 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,600 should. So that result didn't transfer 294 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,600 into a quite as good a result as it as it could have done. 295 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:32,160 But those those kind of races are always a little bit of luck 296 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,680 and and a little bit of circumstance that that can go 297 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,560 your way or not at the time. Absolutely. 298 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:45,160 And obviously at the end of 98, as you mentioned previously, W 299 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,560 Surrey and Ford split. W Surrey went off with Honda and 300 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,960 Ford and Prodrive joined ranks. And is that when you joined 301 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,200 Prodrive? No. 302 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,400 So I stayed with W Surrey. I ran Peter Cox in the Honda. 303 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,640 In 99, yeah. So I, I only moved at the end at 304 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,600 the beginning of 2000 to Prodrive to run Ricard. 305 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,880 Yeah, I was actually, so I ran Peter all the way through that 306 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,400 year and then I was down to run Tom Christensen. 307 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,760 And so that winter I did a like a round the UK track tour 308 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,760 engineering Tom Christensen, but then said goodbye to him and 309 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,040 went off to his mate Ricard, which she she spent the next few 310 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,480 years ruining me about. An interesting year then with 311 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,800 Peter Cox in 99, his first win at the night race of course, and 312 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,760 where he, he and Ivan Muller had a bit of a they, they, they, 313 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,200 they weren't best friends, were they blessed them, but Peter Cox 314 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,640 quite a character himself then. Yeah, yeah, he really was. 315 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,240 Yeah. I mean, again, he was a really 316 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,800 nice guy. He's very passionate, quick and. 317 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:02,960 And yeah, I again, he was adapting in his early super 318 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:08,520 touring bays to touring cars from the rear wheel drive BMWs. 319 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,160 He'd been driving and and and single seat as previous to that. 320 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:21,800 But yeah, really quick his he came up against a very, very 321 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,760 quick teammate in James Thompson as well, who was probably around 322 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,720 the top of his game in in in no sort of that that era, I think. 323 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,800 Yeah, yeah. What were the differences then 324 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,800 of working with the Ford compared to the Honda? 325 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,600 Because obviously every car has its own characteristics. 326 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,200 You know it's going to have imperfections. 327 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,040 So it's the whole point of different body types and 328 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,240 different dimensions. Was was the Honda a better 329 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,520 touring, a better base car to be a touring car? 330 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,320 Yeah, I mean, they all have strengths, strengths and 331 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,960 weaknesses. The the Ford towards the end of 332 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,200 98 was getting pretty quick anyway, It wasn't, it wasn't 333 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,200 quite as as as as difficult. I think we were sort of around 334 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,160 5th, 6th, 7th in in in those sort of races. 335 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,560 I ran then the Pro drive Honda in in in winter testing a little 336 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:36,000 bit and then we had a new Honda Accord come, which I also ran. 337 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,080 That's all when we ran with Peter. 338 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:43,840 But we did AI went to Italy, not engineering myself, but the sort 339 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,640 of the British representative out in Valalunga with the 340 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,960 testing with the Gabrielle Tarquini driving a lot. 341 00:22:52,960 --> 00:23:01,360 So the, one of the differences which ends up getting addressed 342 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,840 at Prodrive was the, the, the, as I mentioned earlier, the, 343 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,960 the, the Mondeo had a more forward weight distribution and 344 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,920 the, the, the Accord being a A4 cylinder and, and able to 345 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,120 package it, move the engine back in the, in the, in the body 346 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:28,320 shell or in the engine Bay, it allowed it to, to run an easier 347 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,240 weight distribution. So you're talking something like 348 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:40,360 5859% on the Ford down to 5655 on the, on the, the Honda, which 349 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,600 that that made a, a difference. It made a difference on on front 350 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,960 tyre wear, for instance, and it and it and it made a difference 351 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,000 on level of understeer that you you had to endure. 352 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,200 You mentioned there that the, the, the, the pro driver were 353 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,800 able to solve that. You know, quite recently at, at 354 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,640 the Goodwood members meeting, Anthony Reed was running a 2000 355 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,280 Mondeo in the, at the, at the, at the members meet. 356 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,640 They had a super touring shoot out and, and, and really was 357 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,080 driving his car from 2000 there. And he showed me the engine Bay 358 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,560 and well, at first you wonder where it is because it's so far 359 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,160 back. It's really a wonderful piece of 360 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,600 engineering. Is that? 361 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,720 Is that how you? Is that how you would explain? 362 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,880 It that that they I mean that they did many things they the in 363 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,880 98 on the on the Mondeo, we managed to flat bottom the car a 364 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,000 bit towards the back. So we ran a big wide exhaust 365 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,080 silencer which sort of covered one part of it and and an oil 366 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,640 catch tank that covered the other part and we designed that 367 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,720 and and they continued with that, but went really extreme on 368 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,680 it. So they had almost a flat bottom 369 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:14,560 car front to back which which the the if I think in the early 370 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,480 days of the the wings that went on the Mondeau like the Andy 371 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,600 Rouse days, it all it virtually did was just get over the lift 372 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,320 that the car would generate. Naturally by the end it was 373 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,680 generating a lot of downfall in the in the Prodrive one, but 374 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,640 they to get over the weight issue. 375 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,160 Yeah, you, you, you're right to point out they moved the engine, 376 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,200 but they also lighten the car in an, in an extreme way, well over 377 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,680 100 kilos of ballast which which allowed them to spread it out 378 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,560 and move it where they wanted so they could just get the absolute 379 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,840 perfect weight distribution thereafter. 380 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,160 And, and, and, and not only obviously a low centre of 381 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,680 gravity, which in a big heavy car is really important. 382 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,720 They they, yeah, they made a a really good step in that, which 383 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,520 is, you know, one of the reasons that Carl was so quick. 384 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,080 You you say there you moved to to to Prodrive for 2000 and 385 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,480 you're working on engineering Rickards car. 386 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,520 That's quite a political powerhouse that team that year, 387 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,440 isn't it? Because you've got Anthony Allan 388 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,040 and then Rickard has joined the show in 2000. 389 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,880 That must have been quite it's heavier times that must have 390 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,040 been quite tricky to to work through because all three of 391 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,080 those drivers are capable of winning on the world stage, 392 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,720 aren't they? They will class drivers, every 393 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,080 single one of them. Yeah, yeah, I, I think it was 394 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,520 like it was one of those years where I mean it was my most 395 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,800 successful year that I, I worked in touring cars, but probably my 396 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,680 most difficult as well because like you say, there was so much 397 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,440 pressure. It was clear the car was good 398 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,320 enough to win the championship and it was going to be one of 399 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,880 those three drivers. There was so much pressure. 400 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,080 There was quite a lot of inter team friction. 401 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:22,360 And yeah, all the three race engineers knew that they had a 402 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,920 driver that if they could manage it, it would win. 403 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:33,160 And I think with Ricard, we had, I think we had 10 pole positions 404 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,720 because he's an exceptional qualifier, but only three race 405 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,720 wins and one of those wasn't from pole. 406 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:46,920 So it was a it's a difficult, I think at one race we're on pole 407 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,720 and Silverstone, I think, and Anthony Reed hitting that hard 408 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,160 at the back that the rear bumper was hanging off and we had to, 409 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,160 we got a Black Flag and drop and the bumper off and you're like, 410 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,080 Oh my God, what can you name? Yes, I don't remember that one. 411 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,960 And and then I think at the final race of the year, we're on 412 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,760 pole for both races. I think you finished second to 413 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,720 Tom Christensen in the first race and then the second race 414 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,080 you had to win it. Obviously I'm a Polar, so we got 415 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:30,160 a chance, but the we'd had to do a quick engine change between 416 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,920 the two races because we'd we'd we'd found some problems and 417 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,800 radiator hose came off on the on the grid. 418 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,320 So we had to push the car off the grid. 419 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,200 So we never got the the actual chance to see if we could 420 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,200 convert it to the to the championship in the end. 421 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Yeah, that that year, as you see the three of the drivers, all 422 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,760 world class, all went into that finale with a chance of winning 423 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,920 the championship. How? 424 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,120 I don't mean fractured in a bad way, but how then how split is 425 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,240 the team? Are you, are you sharing data at 426 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,720 this point or is it very much each sort of sub part of the 427 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320 team is out for themselves at that point? 428 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,440 It wasn't, it wasn't quite like that. 429 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,320 There was no, I mean, the, the, the data was shared. 430 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,960 It wasn't one of those situations because ultimately 431 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,240 the team wants to win regardless. 432 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,120 And, and, and if you start going down that path, you're only 433 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,560 slowing in all three cars down South. 434 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,800 Yeah, it, it, that data was getting shared. 435 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:45,160 It was obviously setups were a bit guarded at times and you 436 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,280 didn't tell everybody your ideas as, as, as such, but it, it was 437 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:56,520 managed, it was managed well. There was kind of like 1 engine 438 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,520 was slightly better than the other and each driver got his 439 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,200 own turn with that engine. You know it, it got rotated. 440 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,800 We used to go and do a shakedown before each race weekend and all 441 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400 three cars would be checked to, to check the, they're making the 442 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,200 same load. And the power curve was checked 443 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,000 as well so that they're all as, as close to each other they 444 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,120 could be. So it, it it wasn't it, it, it 445 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,480 wasn't, Yeah, difficult from that side. 446 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,520 That's good. Now, one other thing I'd like to 447 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,000 sort of mention is that I mentioned Goodwood about 5 448 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,480 minutes ago. Now the gentleman who owns 449 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:50,920 Anthony's 2000 Mondeo now has a lot of difficulty in keeping the 450 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:57,080 car going because it's because it's such a technological beast. 451 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,760 Then, you know, and, and his view is that he had, you know, 452 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,680 there was a team of about 60 of you running the three cars then 453 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,640 on a big budget, whereas he's now trying to do it on a bit of 454 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,840 beer money and, and whatever friends he can get to muck in. 455 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,360 And those cars were so technologically advanced for the 456 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,280 time, weren't they? They, they, they were, yeah, 457 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,920 yeah. I mean, they, they, they, they 458 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,320 were the, the end of the, of the, of the series as such. 459 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,520 And and like you say, there was a lot the the engines they'd 460 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,680 really worked hard on, I think. And Pro Drive did a, you know, 461 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,160 they, they, they worked on absolutely every aspect. 462 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,520 So engines were, were better than they'd ever been. 463 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,280 There was a lot of what you would call Formula One 464 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,200 technology within the engine. I think because they were trying 465 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:57,200 to make the engine out of a standard Rd car engine as it as 466 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:03,480 it starts life it to make the block and make it strong enough 467 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,440 and how they wanted it. It was the most expensive block 468 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,720 Ford were making at the time, including in one block. 469 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,520 So it was it was more costly, it was costing more to manufacture 470 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,960 than than than the that that F1 block. 471 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:25,400 So, so there was a lot of, yeah, I mean, you were limited in, in, 472 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,920 in some things you can do. But but also I think throughout 473 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:36,280 that Super Touring time, which is one of the reasons I enjoyed 474 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,640 it a lot, is there was a lot of development. 475 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,600 You could do a lot to the cars. We would be aero testing 476 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,600 constantly every every week that we could get out and do straight 477 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,120 line running. We would be doing that. 478 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,640 You'd have been in the wind tunnel. 479 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:02,640 You were constantly revising geometries and, and trying to 480 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,760 move the thing forward. And if you didn't, you went 481 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,720 backwards. So, so and that, and that was 482 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,640 the same in the W Surrey era and, and, and, and throughout 483 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,640 the, the Honda and then the, the, the pro drive. 484 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,280 And then the nice thing as an engineer was that you, you were 485 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,400 involved in a lot of aspects of it. 486 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,160 So whereas when you're doing Formula One, you've got 487 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,200 aerodynamics and you've got mechanical designers and, and on 488 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,840 all of this and well, actually not designing the parts in 489 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,840 touring cars, there are designers you are inputting in 490 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,080 and, and, and involved in the, the, the test and reporting a 491 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,040 lot more. So it it was very good from that 492 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,000 that side of things. I was talking to Anthony Reed a 493 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,840 few weeks ago about about engineers in Super Touring and 494 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,520 he said to me the the great thing is the engineers were so 495 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,480 talented that for the next 10 years after Super Touring, you 496 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,080 took any glance at the pit lane and he would be able to pick 497 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,200 out, well, there's so and so that used to work at Ford and 498 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,840 there's so and so that used to work at Honda. 499 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,120 And all the talent from the BTCC when Super Touring ended 500 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,560 dispersed into the F1 paddock because you would gain such 501 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,760 great experiences in such a highly advanced championship. 502 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's, he's he's right. 503 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:30,679 And and I did actually run him in, in the DMG, Yeah. 504 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:37,800 So after I left Prodrive, I went, I went to F3000, but I had 505 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,920 a, that was a much more leisurely championship to do, 506 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,840 even though it was FYA, it was only 1010 races halfway through 507 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,000 that year. And Dick Bennett's had got the 508 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,199 Ng contract and, and, and I went back there and did the 509 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,680 development work, development testing and, and development 510 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:05,440 work for, for the, for that Ng new regulations as they were 511 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,480 that, that half of the year and over the winter before I went 512 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,400 back to a 3000 again. So I, I, I ran Anthony for the 513 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,480 final. I think we did the final three 514 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,840 race weekends and we won the final race in the. 515 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,400 Yeah, in the soaking wet rain of brands, yeah. 516 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,160 Yeah. Yeah, Anthony said. 517 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,080 His favourite thing about that was that morning he saw all the 518 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,200 Vauxhall media people lining up all their press photo 519 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,880 opportunity because they assumed they were going to win every 520 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,280 race that year and he really enjoyed throwing that spanner. 521 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,480 Yeah, yeah. How did you? 522 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,560 Find those cars compared to the Super tours, then those MG and 523 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,400 the NGTC that's the current the BTC touring cars, then the 524 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,120 MG75T. Yeah, yeah. 525 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,680 I mean, there there was a lot more restrictions already. 526 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:04,040 It was getting dumbed down as such as as as as to what you 527 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:10,080 could do comparison to the Super Touring a a a lot less 528 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:18,560 aerodynamics, aerodynamic influence, but and and and 529 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,000 possibly a little harder to achieve some of the the things 530 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,400 that you wanted to. So again, weight distribution 531 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,640 and and that type of thing. But it, it, it was still at that 532 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,960 time was still fun to, to do. But you, you, you could feel it 533 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,440 wasn't quite the same. And they weren't as quick and 534 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,400 they weren't as breathtaking watching them, no. 535 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,080 That's very true. And then obviously your touring 536 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,160 car career ended because you took the big step into into 537 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,520 Formula One with Eddie Jordan. Yeah, yeah. 538 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,640 Another big character. Yeah, yeah. 539 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:05,960 Well, I I didn't actually work with Eddie No So so I went, I 540 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:14,480 went from the the I did a 2000 and one 2002 F 3000 with racing. 541 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,000 I think 2001. We won the championship with 542 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:25,760 Justin Wilson and Thomas Anger and then 2003 I went to Carlin 543 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,120 Motorsport and was chief engineer on their World Series 544 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:39,600 team and 2004 ran Tiago Montero and then then I went to to F1 545 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,880 with Trevor Carlin. Right. 546 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,680 When he, when he went to Jordan, there was four of us went from 547 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,880 Carlin's to to to to Jordan. Yeah, of course Eddie would have 548 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,200 sold up at that point, wouldn't he? 549 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,720 So yeah, he wasn't involved anymore. 550 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,840 It's just the name. Yeah, yeah. 551 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,440 Although he did used to wander in and and but there are a few 552 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,240 expletives and and wind a few people up. 553 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,160 But yeah. You you stuck with that team 554 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,160 through all the iterations of of a Spiker, Force India, Midland, 555 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,040 Racing Point, all the way through to what it is now Aston 556 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,720 Martin. That must have been quite an 557 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:25,160 interesting development as the team grew around you then, 558 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,080 because what it is now compared to what you would have walked 559 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,280 into in 2005 must have been very different. 560 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,560 Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I, when I went 561 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,600 there in 2005, it was shrinking as such. 562 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:44,480 So it was reducing and and an actual fact, I think part way 563 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,040 through 2005 there was actually more people worked at Prodrive 564 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:55,720 then worked in really in that Jordan initial Jordan year and 565 00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:01,080 it and it was a bit like that. It was more about survival for 566 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,480 those first couple of years until Vijay bought it as force 567 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,440 endearing. It started to get an injection 568 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:16,160 of cash and and and an improvement then, yeah. 569 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,920 So you obviously as, as I just said, you went all the way 570 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,280 through to the Aston Martin era. I remember hearing you on the 571 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,040 radio with Lance Stroll. You've now you're now working in 572 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,240 F2 as a team principal. What does that involve? 573 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,960 Yeah. So I, I, I look after, I mean, I 574 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,800 look after F2F3, we've got Fraca F4. 575 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,600 Oh wow. OK. 576 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,160 Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm along with 577 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,000 the management team that that, that I have. 578 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,960 We're looking after all the series and we've developed a 579 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:05,200 test team there now and we're. In a, a big push to develop each 580 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,080 of the teams, each of the cup cars as as much as possible to 581 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,080 try and get the all, all the teams up to the front end of the 582 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,520 grid. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a 583 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,400 big process to, to, to do that. And, and the company is now 584 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,520 we've got around 95 people, something like that working 585 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,880 there. So it's not a small team? 586 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,160 No, a big team of people. Yeah. 587 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,760 So having obviously you still very much working in the sport 588 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,400 now, when you look back at your time in touring cars in the BTCC 589 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,960 all the way back from 92 until the final years 2000 and a 590 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,400 couple of years with with Reedy and the MG, do you look back 591 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,000 fondly at that time with a lot of happiness? 592 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,600 Yeah, it is. Yeah. 593 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,440 Yeah, it was really, really good fun series. 594 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,360 Yeah, there, there there's some really great memories and and 595 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,560 like I say, the engineering as well that you could do as well 596 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,960 as the. It had many aspects. 597 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,040 Obviously you were doing pit stops and and had had had had 598 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,040 lots of different aspects to it to to to try and perfect. 599 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,280 So, yeah, really enjoyable. And, and, and like you say, what 600 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:33,400 Anthony said, when I went to Jordan, I was then working with 601 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,400 a a, a race engineer who'd come from the Williams touring car 602 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,440 era. I took over the position from 603 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:47,080 Jerry Hughes, who went to Red, who'd also been menus engineer 604 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,600 at Prodrive. Yeah, so they were. 605 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,880 And, and you know, I see, I still see Dominic sometimes. 606 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,840 He works for the FIA now, like you say, there was a lot of a 607 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,320 lot of people who were at Jordan. 608 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,880 There were several mechanics that were from the pit lane and, 609 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,680 and especially Pro Drive in particular. 610 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:15,760 So it, it, it, it did become a, a, a draft as such as F1 611 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,760 expanded. And, but yeah, I, I, I enjoyed 612 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,840 those years, especially the, the years at W Surrey. 613 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,480 I think they were really good. And and and and. 614 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,400 The time running Charlie was also. 615 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,360 I can imagine. I can imagine. 616 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,640 So you mentioned the pit stops quickly. 617 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,840 It's something I've only come to me when, when you mentioned it, 618 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,800 was it something that you had a dedicated members of staff that 619 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,040 would only ever do it or did was it a rotational thing? 620 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,880 No, so it was it was you wouldn't do a rotational thing. 621 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:00,600 You may in the beginning find who is the the the most likely 622 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:08,680 talented and on those touring cars, physique was one real 623 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,000 thing. So if you were the right build, 624 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,960 that certainly helped. And and and so it wouldn't there 625 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,720 would be the same guys do the pit stop, but they wouldn't 626 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,640 necessarily be say, the number one mechanic or something like 627 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,280 that. It it it I think pro drivers, 628 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,160 maybe a chief mechanic on more than side than A and A and a 629 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,120 Truckee on the other side. Yeah, OK. 630 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:38,120 They were the people with the with the most skill at at that 631 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,760 time. So you, you, you you just pick 632 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,040 your best crew by care. And, and that's the same with 633 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,200 Formula One, yeah. That that's not necessarily 634 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,760 because you're #1 on a, on a, on a car that you're the, the guy 635 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,120 on the gun or something like that, though they just, they do 636 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,880 really rotate through, find people who are the most suited 637 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,000 to what one particular job. Yeah. 638 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,240 And and maximise the potential. Did you ever, ever go? 639 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,440 I did, yeah. I was rubbish. 640 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,600 Yeah, I mentioned the word physique and I think the. 641 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,720 One thing from that did the team personnel enjoy having that 642 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:19,160 extra challenge and being involved that little bit more 643 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,960 with pit stops and pit strategy, or would you have preferred to 644 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,520 do your bit and then just leave it to the driver? 645 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,440 That I think the pit stops are often a good thing. 646 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,280 I mean, we, we still do it in F2 in the future race. 647 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:43,040 So, and, and that in, in itself is more difficult because the, 648 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,600 that, that you've only got a limited amount of people that 649 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,240 you can pick from. So, and, and pretty much 3/4 of 650 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:54,480 the people have to be involved in the pit stop. 651 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,440 And, and you, you don't necessarily employ people. 652 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,280 We can't employ people that are just solely bettled up being a 653 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,600 pit, a pit crew. So it's you, you, there's a bit 654 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,240 of training involved to try and to improve the, the stops at 655 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,920 that point. And it's a little bit the same 656 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,680 in, in, in, in the Super touring days. 657 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:25,280 Again, not huge teams. Whereas in F1 you really have 658 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,960 the, the luxury of a lot more people to, to, to choose from 659 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,160 and, and, and, and in some ways, although they're, they're super 660 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,600 impressively quick, they have so many guys per corner. 661 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,600 But it's, it's physically not as hard for them as it is in some 662 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,400 of the lower formulas where they have heavier wheels and they've, 663 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,800 they, if, if the car stops out of place, the guy's got to move 664 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,520 his wheel and his gun and the whole lot. 665 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,920 Whereas F1 there there's one guy with with the wheel, one guy 666 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,120 with the gun and it's much easier. 667 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,160 I think the the Super Touring rule was it was 2 per side, 668 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,680 wasn't it? It was only so, as you say, if 669 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,000 somebody came in and you know, missed their stop, you've only 670 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,760 got two people then dragging or and if you wanted to change all 671 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,920 four tyres, that was a 22nd pit stop suddenly. 672 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,600 You know, yeah, yeah. So that yeah, they, they had to 673 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:24,400 rush off to the back as well. And, and, and, and also the 674 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,520 wheel arches make that much more difficult and that the, the, 675 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,480 yeah, it's not a, a simple process to, to, to get that 676 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,120 wheel on and off. So, and I, I think there's, if I 677 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,840 remember right, there was sort of around 5-6 seconds or 678 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,200 something like that. Yeah. 679 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,960 Which was, if you see what they had to do was, was, was 680 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,520 incredible. There was very much a 681 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,440 progression. I think the first time at 682 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,240 Thruxton it was around 8-9 seconds and I think Pro Drive 683 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,880 got the quickest in the end in the final year with about 3.9 684 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,960 seconds, which was very, very impressive. 685 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,320 But you could see the teams that had thought clever and had 686 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,600 started slightly redesigning wheel arches and trying to get 687 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,640 make it a bit easier to get things up and under, especially 688 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,400 at the rear. That and certain cars they that 689 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,520 was particularly tricky point for the for the the wheels to 690 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,240 get up and under the wheel actually right. 691 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,280 Yeah, yeah. And there was, I think, yeah, 692 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,000 quick release jacks and I mean the things you'd absolutely bang 693 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,720 down. The drivers used to complain 694 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:33,840 that, yeah, bit of spine compression as it landed. 695 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,440 Yeah, it was. There was some design involved 696 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,800 like you say, but also some some skill from the crews and and a 697 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,720 lot of practise. Absolutely. 698 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,960 Well, Brad, thank you so much for for joining us this week on 699 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,600 Stories from Super Touring. It's been a delight having you 700 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,000 on the show. I hope you've enjoyed looking 701 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,960 back at the era that you seem to remember very fondly. 702 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,120 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's reminded me a lot of 703 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,000 a lot of lot of different things that happened. 704 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,880 So that that was yeah, it was fun for me. 705 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:07,520 Yeah. Thank you. 706 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,560 And thank you again for listening to this week's episode 707 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,080 of Stories from Super Touring. Come back next week, where we'll 708 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,840 be taking a trip to Europe for the first time as we look back 709 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:25,600 on a controversial 1999 STW title decider at the 710 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,040 Nurburgring. We'll see you next week. 711 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:28,720 Goodbye.