Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome back to Series
5 of Stories from Super Touring. And it's been a while since
Series 4 ended in June, so we thought we'd come back for star
of Series 5 with a bang. And we've got a cracking guest
for you lined up today. Now he's won Lamont, he's won
pretty much every category of Super Touring Championship he
could back in the 90s. So I'm delighted that joining
myself, Levi and Adam today is none of the 1999 BTCC Super
Touring Champion, Laurent Aiello.
Laurent, thank you so much for joining us on Stories From Super
Touring. You're kicking off Series 5.
How are you? Oh fine, thanks.
Thanks a lot for the irritation. Not a problem.
It's it was good meeting you at Brand Satch a few a few months
ago. Were you impressed with just how
big a following the the Super Touring formula still has even
to this day? Yeah, I was really surprised,
Yes. It's always good, you know, it's
been, it was since 1999. I was, I never came back on the
on the race track in England, you know, and, and now and this
time I I remember really well, you know, the passion of all the
people around the track. You know, it was like if I was
in 99, you know, I could even imagine, you know, all these
people because most of the time we never spend some time, you
know, out of the circuit, you know, and it was good to see all
these people and to be together with them watching the cars, you
know, going around. It was.
I really enjoyed it, you know. And I think, I think you don't
have the pressures of obviously racing like when you was in 99.
You're now relaxed, you've come back.
It's different. I find that now you know when
when you're racing with people, you're you can be friends with
some of them, but you're still rivals.
But now there's no competition between.
So it's a different atmosphere and it's good to relax and and
talk about things that you haven't spoken about for 20-30
years, you know? Exactly.
And I was also surprised, you know, because there was also
some of those drivers from the BTCC and we never spoke like
that together because we, like you said, we were on
competition. And I was really surprised
because I had AI had a bad image of these people in in reality,
you see, because we, we want to be, you know, you know, like
aggressive on the face, you know, to show that we are here
for warriors, yeah. To fight, you know, to fighting
each other, you know. Well, it's clear to see that
obviously you are a massive racing enthusiast.
Where did the bug bite? When did you realise that racing
was something that you wanted to get involved in?
My first race in go Kart, you know, I was the last.
I was last. OK yeah.
And the the first the. Only the only time you were
last. Yeah, yeah.
So and the people they want your to, they wanted to overlap me,
you know, and because I was a little bit boring alone, I
started to raise them, you know, and then at the end of the
ranch, happy about it, you know, and, and then I understood, you
know, that I, I was really wrong.
And in my head, this was for me the starting point of the the
that I wanted to fight, you know, to, to show that I was
not. That I was.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly that was at
this point I realise it. Well, you you obviously got
better because you were French karting champion when you were
14, so you must have improved at some point.
Yeah, the, the second race I finished 5th and the 3rd I
finished third, you know. So very quickly I managed to,
to, to, to, to get, yeah, some, I was a little bit more
competitive, you know, race after race.
And at that time there was a lot of very good drivers, people
like Jacques Taujon, you know him because he was racing.
Also there was Emmanuel Collard. There was a lot of people
because I was living in Paris at that time, you know, and there
was like we were pushing each other, you know, one weekend I
was winning and the other one was the other guy and he, he
was, he found some tricks, you know, to go faster.
And yeah, we just improve ourselves, you know, from race
to race. And that was, that was really
good. And I, I did two years, you
know, the smallest category at that time was they call it
minim, Minim, it goes from, it was going from 10 to 13.
And then the other category was Cade, and also for two years.
And then after that you're like a senior.
You race against people like 30-40 or fifty years old, you
know? Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if it's the same in England, which must be the same,
yeah. Once you get to 16, you're in
the senior category. Yeah, yeah.
Alright. And I was doing the World Cup,
the World Championship together with Michael Trumauer and
Mcneish. There was a lot of people like
that at that time already. We we met each other at that
time. So we grow up into the
categories. I OK, I I've never been to
Formula One, but at least in Formula Three we were still
racing together in 3000 also. On the subject of Formula Three,
started racing cars in 1988 and then moved into F3 in 1989.
At that point, was Formula One a name, a real ambition for you,
or was it more sort of just going to each year and seeing
how you progressed and getting the deal sorted for each year?
Yeah, it was, it was that, you know, like even in go Kart it
was the same for me. You know, I wanted to prove
myself that I was able to go a little bit up each year.
And when I started in 99 in Formula Three, I was not
thinking about formula, Formula One because even when I we
decided with my father to go to make this racing school, formula
free racing school, I talked to my father.
But you know that yeah, I'm not sure I'm, I'm going to be quick
in, in, in, in racing cars. You know, I was quick in go
karts, but it's different. But he said, OK, just let's try
and and it work. But at that time in 99, I didn't
know if I was going to be able to to grow up into the category.
Still on to Formula 3 then. So you, you competed in Formula
3/19/90, winning in Monaca, Yeah.
So for you as a Frenchman to go to Monaco, like how was that?
Was was that the first time you've been to Monaco?
Would you been there before? No, no, that was the first time.
And The funny thing is that on, I think it was the Friday night,
it was my birthday and I had and I was 21 and in and in casino
exactly when I went to the to the casino, the guy said, Hey,
you're not, you're too young. And I said, no, look, look at my
idea in time, you know, so that was the first time.
And also I was not supposed to go to Monaco because my team was
not going to Monaco because I was doing the French
championship with another team which was draft racing.
And I did Monaco with DGDJ, no DGDG, Danielle Gash racing.
And I was into Jack Goucho's car, which was not invited or
whatever in for the race. So and then the car was so
perfect for the race in the rain.
I started well because I was 4th or 5th in on the grid, yeah, but
then in the race it was raining like hell, you know?
And and the car was fantastic. It what?
What's it like winning it like such an iconic circuit and venue
of Monaco? It's incredible.
That changed my career. Yeah, right.
Because I was traveling in the French championship, I was
driving a Renault car with the Volkswagen engine.
But it wasn't, it was not working at all, you know.
And before that we were, we tried to find some solution
with, I was like trying to find some money even because I didn't
get all the budget for the, for the, for the season.
And I had a very good contact with British company, I think, I
think it was Barclays Bank. Oh, yes, yeah.
In France and they told me we spend like months, you know,
talking to each other. They were like, OK, maybe, maybe
not. And then suddenly they said, no,
we we will not follow you for with the money, but we will give
you a contact in England. It's a French, it's a, it's a
Formula Three team and it's Bowman Racing.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember, so please go and see
them and let's see what they can do for you, if maybe they can
invite you in a for a race or whatever.
And I said yeah, OK. So I went there and Mr. Bowman
at that time, he didn't knew me. I had, I had, I was, I had a
small sponsorship with Marlboro as a Marlboro driver, you know,
but he didn't knew me at all, you know.
And The funny thing is that maybe one or two months later, I
won Monaco. And then and then he knew me,
you know, so and what we, The funny thing is also that because
the car, our car was not working in the French championship,
yeah, we decided to go and see him and ask if we can rent him a
car with the engineer, you know. So this is what we done.
And then suddenly we won four or five races in a row, you know.
So we had the contact and then Bowman invited me for the Macao
and Fuji race at the end of the year.
Macao another You had another strong performance there, didn't
you? Macao, yeah, but I finished
fifth in the first race and 2nd in the in the second one.
So Global I was 4th, but I finished second in Fuji behind
the Schumacher. So yeah, I had a very good race.
Yeah, yeah. That that took you on to Formula
3000. Then for 1991 again another step
up the ladder. How did you find your first year
in F3000? You know, at the end of 90,
after Macao and Fuji race, Marlborough Europe invited four
or five Formula Three drivers, I can't remember.
But there was Akinen for sure. There was Ryder I think and we
had a test in Le Mans with the Formula 3000 from DAMS 91
season, you know. And we Akinen was supposed to be
the team mate of Alan for the 9191 season.
But they invited us, you know, just for a present because we
want few races for Marlboro. So we were invited and like to
make a test with the car. We had like one hour and 2 sets
of tyres I I think. And we could, we could work with
the car, with the engineer and do the best we can, you know.
Yeah. And in this day, I went super
fast, you know, I went like in one lap, I went like one second
faster than Hakkinen and, and the others a little bit more
even. Yeah.
And the good thing is that Mika decided to go directly to
Formula One instead of staying in, instead of going in 3000,
you know? Brilliant.
Well, it took his place. Yeah, so.
Yeah, big timing, yeah. Yeah, it was perfect timing.
And because I didn't get the money for doing formally 3000,
if right, this not happening, you know?
Yeah, yeah, not happening. So it was like 90 was a really
perfect season for me. What?
What was that transition? I know I went from Formula
Renault campus at Alpha affiliate at the, the the
scholarship school at Lamont IN 1999 and I went into Formula 3
promotion class into 2000. So I remember that transition
going from a single seat that hasn't got any power, no
downforce, not not really good brakes into Formula Three.
It was a big shock to make because the tyres are bigger,
the grip is bigger, the power, the brake in and downforce.
How was that for you going from Formula Three to Formula 3000?
Was that again like your neck and everything?
Was it a big transition? Yeah, for sure the neck, but
like this this test in in Le Mans, fortunately, I knew the
circuit perfectly. I knew I knew the circuit very
well. The Bugatti circuit yes and when
you're fighting against the stopwatch, you know, you want
some, even some more power all the time out of the corners, you
know, so I, I would say that yes, I understand what you're
saying that there is a big difference on downforce and
everything, but because you're here to show the people what
you're able to do, I think you're you do.
I don't know what's happening, but I I did it like in a perfect
way. I don't know how, but I did it.
You know, I and I test in 94. I was, I have been able to test
the McLaren Peugeot and the Jordan Peugeot.
And again, you know, the power was not a problem for me.
The big difference was the braking with the Formula One,
but there was no much so much difference in two between
Formula 3 and 3000 that there isn't in between 3000 and
Formula One. Yeah.
And it's when the engineer tells you you can write lighter, you
can write lighter. And you're like, how is this
possible? No, I went in 94.
I went to The thing is that when I did this test with the
McLaren, the last time I was I've been driving a a single
seater was in 92 from my 3000 and 9394.
I was in touring car, you know, so end of that.
Big jump again. Two years in touring cars and
then suddenly for Formula One. Big shock.
This was a big shock, I tell you.
And I was, I remember this was in Estrille and I was together
with Jacqui Eklat, which was my engineer.
He, he went to Formula One after, you know, I, I was
together with him and we were watching Mika Akinen breaking
down the straight, you know, and then I don't know if, you know,
this circuit in that story, there was a, the first corner
was really, really fast. At that time he was in fourth
gear and I was expecting him, you know, to break up around 100
meter. You know, it's normally it's a
little bit later than 100, but I was expecting him there.
But at 100 nothing happened, 18 nothing happened.
It just break into the corner, you know, in the corner it was.
And I said to my engineer, sorry, but I'm not able to do
this tomorrow and, and, and, and the day after I was doing the
same, you know. But the first time is the
scariest. But once you know you can do it
and someone can prove to you that it's possible, every lap is
fine. But it's that first time, like
you said, you look at that and think that's not possible.
Yeah, I know. I remember when I started in
Formula 3IN in 89, you know, I didn't do the circuit, the
French circuit. And sometimes I was asking to
myself, how is it? Is this corner flat?
You know, And for sure the other drivers, your opponents, they
say yeah, yeah, easy flat, you know.
Yeah. But when you arrive into the
corner, you, you break you, you hold your breath.
Yeah. But then you start to to build,
you know, the speed, you know, like first of all, the
confidence, but first brake, you shift down and then you don't
brake. And what you do is that you put
flat out and you brake left foot, you know, just to slow
down the car and and then after you release the brake and you go
flat, you know, but this is something to to, to learn, you
know, and I learned. To have built up to it, don't
you? Exactly, Yeah.
It's, it's interesting you mentioned that test actually
with McLaren at Esteril, because recently I was listening to
another podcast and they were discussing the best F1, the best
test drivers or people who tested F1 cars in the 90s that
didn't make it into Formula One. And your name cropped up and
the, yeah, the journalist, the F1 journalist Mark Hughes said
that, said that you were mightily impressive in that, in
that test. So.
I remember I was not far on lap time, you know, and like I said,
two years before, I was doing touring cars, you know.
So for me, I was really happy about what I, I, I did this,
this, this day with the, with the, the car.
Because the thing was also at the moment, I wanted to go fast,
to go flat out in the fast corners.
Yeah, my neck and my arms, couldn't you know.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
That was the point. You know, I would.
Yeah. Yeah.
Could have been quicker, but I couldn't.
Physically I couldn't. No, it was not possible.
Like it's a, it's a different discipline driving a touring car
at that point, isn't it, you know?
Definitely. And you yeah, there's nothing
you can do because the year after I Jean Pierre Jebouis, you
know, he wanted to show the people that touring car drivers
are able or drivers that are able to, to be fast.
Also in, in Formula One, you know, he was Formula One driver
and he, he loved racing in touring cars and he wanted to
show the people and, and in the day in the, in the year after
with Jordan, he was thinking that we were going to have more
opportunities, you know, for me to test the car.
And, and then there was a test again in Estoril.
But again, the thing was, the problem was physically, but the
the, and then Jean Pierre told me, OK, you have to go in the,
in the, in the gym, try to make your own neck stronger in your
hands and everything. So I went there and I did it for
six months. And the next test was in the
same circuit, same car, and after the same laps, like 50
laps after, I couldn't turn the wheel and even support my neck,
you know, So the only thing you can do is drive the car, you
know, for me, outside is bullshit.
It's just for people to think that they, they, you know,
honestly. So it's more of a cardio thing
to keep your fitness up, isn't it?
In the gym, As I put like you said, the the neck muscles, all
the muscles you use in a single seater is so different to what
you can do in a gym. Yeah.
And also, you know, because of the stress, because of the G
force that you cannot reproduce in the in the gym, it's really
different. So after two years in Formula
3000, you made the move to Touring Cars in 1993.
What was the reason for that? Was there any big factor that
led to you going into Touring cars?
At the end of 92, there was a low in France avoiding
sponsorship by cigarettes. So yeah, yeah, so, and my
sponsor was Marlboro and I had a big budget.
I I had like, how much was it like 1,000,000?
I think it was €1,000,000 kind of you know, and, and in France
they create like a budget for all those sportsman's that they
lost their money, they lost their sponsor, sponsor with the
cigarettes, you know. So I think in France, I was
probably the guy which could have, you know, like the, the,
the, the money back, you know, from the minister.
But there was so much politics, you know, that I didn't get, I
didn't get the money. I only had like not half, but
even less than that, you know. So at that time, I remember Paul
Stewart, they wanted me to race in the, in the, in the car.
They offer me for for a small budget to race with them, but
but even I didn't get enough money from the minister to to
join them, so no. So I was really, really
disappointed at the end of 92 because I had a very bad year
also with Pacific Racing. Yeah, it was really difficult,
but I don't know what happened, but I was nearly stopping.
I was going to stop my career because with what happened in,
in during this year and what happened with the government,
with the this morning, I was really, you know, I was off
completely. And then suddenly Yukda Shanak,
call me. I knew him from Formula Three,
you know, and he told me, though I know this is not what you were
expecting and what that was not your plan, you know, to do
touring cars. But I have a a Bridget with BMW
in France for the French championship.
And I would like you to come and test a car in in Puerto Rico and
let me know if you like it. And if you like it, I would be
really happy that you joined the team with us.
And then I went there and I really, really appreciate
driving this touring car, you know, like in, you know, scene
corner, which is easy flat with a single seat car.
It's you have to brake, shift down and and fight with the car,
you know, all around the corner. And I said, well, it's, it's
terrible. I like it very much.
And I said, yes, I want to do it.
And we had a perfect year, you know, because we were nearly
beating the the villa with the four wheel drive.
Yeah. And, and I had a really great
experience with, with the Shenak and the team, because this is a
a really, really good team. And, and they put a lot of
effort, a lot of pressure working a lot.
And this is where I've, I've learned, you know, how to work
to win the championship, you know, because before that I won
some races, but not championships into in, in racing
cars, you know. And so, yeah, 93 was a really
good year for me. Let's say you you didn't have a
bad record. It was pretty good that you
entered 5 races, you won four of them and let you say you were
runner up to Frank Beeler in the Audi.
You also went to Italy and raced in two rounds there, finishing
10th and 4th. Did you at that point were you
thinking right? Touring cars is is the future
for me now. This is what I want to do.
Yeah, yeah, definitely yes. Because also, like I said, the,
the way to drive the car, I enjoyed it and to work with the
manufacturer also was really good.
Because to test, you know, I remember we were testing tyres,
Michelin tyres. It's not easy because it's very
for, for one week. You're, you're, you're like
doing everyday, every outing. It's like qualifying with the
tyres, you know, but it's, you gain so much experience for the
feeling, for working with the engineers.
And also I understood that now I was not racing for myself, but I
was racing for a manufacturer, you know?
Yeah. And this is not, it's completely
different. You know, it's important to be
at the, you know, then there is 2 cars.
It's better to be, you know, beating your partner because
it's better this way. But at least you know that
you're not working only for yourself, but for the
manufacturer. So that so that moved to Peugeot
in 94. How?
How did that connection with Peugeot come about?
Yeah, because, because Jean Pierre in 93 was still racing in
touring cars with Peugeot. That's four or five.
And yeah, and so we were racing against each other, but out of
the car, we were always talking about tires and taking the
techniques, you know, and I I think he appreciated, you know,
and and then at the end of 93, he knew that he was going to be
sport chef at Peugeot. And he told me, Laurent, I would
like you to test the McLaren Peugeot.
I would like you to be a test driver.
But if you for that, it's necessary that you become a a
touring car driver for us also because they had some other
driver from the 905 you remember there.
Was like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's tough, Bouche and
some others, you know, and he told me that, yeah, I cannot
propose you to come only for Formula One test.
You have to join us for for touring cars.
And I said, yeah, OK. I was so disappointed for UG,
the Chennai because this year with UG was so like I'm in the
relationship was so strong, you know, that I was not happy to to
leave him. But at the end of the day, when
I told him what was the plan from Jean Pierre, he told me,
OK, I cannot fight against Formula One.
If you have an opportunity, yeah, you have to go.
Then I went. It's a good proposition, isn't
it? Like you come and test the
McLaren, but I'll let you do the test in the McLaren.
But you needed to race the Peugeot touring car.
OK then. OK.
Yeah, no, but I mean, like I said, you know, I was happy to
do the the the touring car programme, you know, and I think
that it's very important because I think there's some driver,
they were good drivers in single seat, you know, and they were
not so good in touring cars because I think first of all,
they didn't really want it to be there at that time, you know?
No, that's right. You understand.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've, we've a few people who've
said that, that, you know, they, they saw it almost as a step
down. Exactly.
You know, they, they were looking down their noses at it
and and not really appreciating it for what it was.
Yeah, exactly. And it was the contrary for me.
Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
I. Think you, you, you embraced it
and you got the most out of it, which is the which is a good
thing, a really good thing. Yeah.
Career, your career is probably longer in touring cars than it
would be as a Formula One driver.
Touring cars you, if you stay with the manufacturers and you
know you're getting paid to race, that's likely to happen
for a lot longer than a stint in Formula One.
For sure. One thing I would love to, to,
to ask you about Iran is a lot of drivers we've had on the show
have talked about their single seated background and coming up
through the the single seater formula and learning to race
rear wheel drive cars throughout their junior career and early
career. And then suddenly stepping into
a front wheel drive touring car. Now obviously you went from BMW,
which would have been rear wheel into the Peugeot, which was
front wheel drive. Was that a hard to sort of reset
the brain almost and think I need to really change the way I
drive? Is it a?
Is it a hard transition? It was there was a huge
difference for sure, but I had no choice.
So I changed my mind completely, you know, and I said, OK, forget
the, the, the rear wheel drive. And now you have to work to make
this car fast and not only fast, but that you can, you know, last
and win the races, you know, And it was not easy because like you
probably know that you are, you work on the front tyres for the
braking, the turning and accelerating.
So I understood very quickly that I had, that I had to have
the car turning into the corners by itself, you know, just to
release a little bit, you know, the pressure on the tyres.
Yeah. And the effort on the tyres.
And with the, I started with the 4-5 and then in that, with the
4-6, yeah, it was even. We went step forward, you know.
Yeah, yeah. Because also the other problem
is on the starting grade, you know, it's all it's, it was also
difficult, you know, to start well with the front wheel drive
compared to the BMWs or, or the, the Audis, you know, So, but it
was interesting. But because we work a lot and we
managed to get solution to make it work to make it work.
But like you said, it was really strange at the the the first
time I went to the four O 5 Peugeot accelerating out of the
corners that the, the, the front was not just like pushing,
pushing and going over, I mean coal.
Rates tires as well yeah, because you've gone from having
temperature you know where you stand with the rear wheel drive
car but. You know, for me the front wheel
drive is faster. Why?
Because especially in the fast corners when you just start to
lose the the rear with the rear wheel drive, when you lose it,
it's finished. Yeah, can't do anything.
Yeah, at least with the front wheel drive.
See opposite. You put your foot further down
the throttle. Yeah, exactly.
So it means that you can go closer to the limit, the grip
limit. So it means that you can go
faster in the fast corners. For me, a front wheel drive, you
know, and also one of the thing when I came to to Nissan in 99,
I asked them to put me more power steering in the because
for me the steering was too heavy.
And in this fast corner I had to control, you know, the slide and
the grip with my with my steering, you know, so they put
me a double pump. Oh, OK.
They were a little bit surprised about it, but yeah, it worked
perfectly for me. It's difficult a jump to front
wheel drive was in 1994. It you adapted very quickly,
clearly, because you took eleven wins that year to take the
title, being Alan Khudini and Ivan Muller.
That must have felt like a pretty good year.
Even if in 93 it was good, 94 must have been even better for
you. Yeah, like I said, you know,
this was my first championship win in 94.
And because like I said again in I I've learned in 93 from Oreika
team, you know, how to build a championship win.
And This is why in 94, OK, the car was was good, definitely
good. But this also came from the fact
that I've learned in 93 how to win.
Sometimes if you cannot win, it's better to finish second,
take points, you know, and then and in 93, I was probably not
prepared well prepared for that at that time.
And and I put everything all together in 94 to make it
happen. It's funny that growing up I
used to think it bizarre that Peugeot could win a touring car
race because in Britain the Peugeots were so poor and yet
the ones out in France, in Italy were winning.
They were winning races. You won the championship.
It was mad to see the differences between Peugeot UK
and Peugeot France. They were totally different
cars. They didn't seem to be able we
there was, there wasn't any working together and on on those
programmes at all, which is a real shame because I think if
they had done, Peugeot could have done a lot better in
Britain and at the time as well. Yeah, definitely.
I don't know exactly what were the difference, but from what I
remember, the engineer told me that sometime when they tried to
help, they were not listening, they didn't wanted to try what
we were doing with the car. So, but even sometimes, you
know, it's not only having a car, you know, it's a question
of also the feeling in between the the driver and his own
engineer, you know, because even in the same team you can have
big differences in term of performance.
It shouldn't be the case, but it's it's a fact.
You know you can have the best car and not having the the same
results or the same performance. I think you you could definitely
say that there was a big difference and we we were just
shocked as fans of racing, fans of touring cars, just to see if
you just expect them to be the same 2 Peugeot.
Two different. Champions you just as a fan You,
you, you scratch your head thinking, well, why is that car
not winning? But this car is winning.
But but you said there's so many different factors to consider,
tyres, tyre compounds as well. It's it's a funny 1 isn't it?
Like you say, you just thought assumed they were the same cars,
but they were very different. Yeah, they were.
So Lauren, you see your final year in the French championship
in 95, you finished third with one win, the season opener.
Was that a tough year with development and everything?
Was that a difficult one for you?
In reality they tried to to make for sure a better car for 95 and
what they done wasn't better, it was worse.
The car was slow. Down the street.
They tried to put the, the engine lower and backwards, you
know, but then it didn't work at all.
And we were slow down the straight, you know.
So we were, they were quite hard during the season to try to
improve that. But the fact was that the engine
was already bridged like that, like this, you know, and we
couldn't change it. So we tried to, to work on
different areas to, to, to try to gain some, some speed and,
and it worked OK. We finished third.
Only one win. You said.
I don't, I don't remember. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, one win, season opener.
They started well, so the championship started well for
the win, so you must not have been really shocked after then
thinking what's happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't. To be honest, I don't remember
looking at you 5. That's that's because it wasn't
your best year, so you just forget about that.
We don't need to talk about that.
Let's talk about the championship.
Wins, that's what. We want to talk about.
Yeah, but even we finished third, so it wasn't bad.
Completely bad, you know, But the French championship was
really hard. There was a lot of competition
with. There was not many cars, but the
competition was there. Really.
Yeah. There are some very fast cars,
yeah. Yeah, having looked through some
of the names that were on the entry list, I mean there were
some really top quality drivers there, weren't there?
Yes, yeah, sure. And there was, I remember that
one called Alan Kudini, maybe you know his name.
He he was also doing DTM in the in the in the 80s.
This guy was nearly 50 at that time.
And he was so fast and he was beating, you know, the, the
young, the young drivers in the team, you know, and say it was
good because I took a lot of experience driving against these
people, you know? Into 1996 then and you remained
with Peugeot but you moved to Germany and the STW Cup and also
racing the new Four O 6 model Peugeot.
Was that a big improvement on the Four O 5 that you'd had in
95? Yeah, sure, definitely,
definitely. Yeah.
But 96, I think we finished third, third in the
championship. Yeah, I think we won one race.
I don't remember exactly. But again, coming into a new
championship is there is you need some time, you know, to
adapt. And because you don't know the
circuits and all these things and you don't know the the
championship itself itself, you know, like the people involved,
the drivers, the everything. And so myself and the team, we
had to to learn, you know, and this is what we did in, in 96 in
a good way, because finishing third is, is, is, is good
already. And we also learned that if we
wanted to win the championship, we had to, to play the same
game. That's the the German teams were
doing like they they were like choosing a driver at the
beginning of the season into the team.
And work for him, you know, and they right.
And they were like really working.
For for one driver, yeah, yeah. But and also the other driver,
the other cars, they, they were like, I don't know how to say,
but to make it difficult for the opponents, you know, I'm talking
about, you know, like with BMW or Audi, it was a little bit
difficult to fight alone against 3-4 cars, you know, sometimes.
So we understood in 96 that we had to do something for that for
97 and OK, and the car, we improved the car.
The car was fantastic at that time.
And 97 was the year that the car has been built around my style
of driving. Yeah, really.
Because the year 90, I mean, 96, I don't remember.
Yeah, there was Alfred Egger with us.
Yes, yeah, we. Didn't know exactly what it was
a new car. So we, we had some experience
from, from the 4-5, but the IO was even more on 1996 you see.
So but what we learned that the fact that we have to save the
tyres and the car has to be, you know, quite aggressive in
downforce. We put it together in 96 and
even better for 97 and the car was fantastic.
So beautiful looking car as well.
That 97 pleasure. It's one of the iconic super
tours isn't it? So much so that when you when
you met Jake, who was racing your Nissan at Brands Hatch, he
had a a model that he got you to sign, didn't he?
It's it's it's it's, it's one of the more, the more stand out
cars. It's a beautiful car, I think.
I agree especially the the front aisle.
For me the shape, the shape was perfect.
It was really nice look looking car.
With with those cars now in the 9697 time that is when they took
Alpha had come to the BTCC and put the front wings and rear
wings on the car and eventually everyone went with front and
rear wings. Did you prefer the cars with the
aero with more grip or did you like the the more loose feeling
cars without the aero on them? No, I prefer the with more aero
because the most grip you have the better you.
The faster you go. The faster you go, but even with
a lot of downfall, you're still sliding.
You know, even the formula ones, you can't see it.
But if you have, if you have a slow motion, you see that you
know in the fast corners they are sliding 4 wheels, you know.
And like you say that year then you had 11 race wins in 97 and
and he beat Joe Winklehoff to the title and in his own
backyard. That must have felt good, yeah.
But Joe is, I really loved this guy.
He was, he was a perfect driver. You know, honestly, we have a
fair, we had a fair battle in the championship with him.
Yeah, around, like I said, you know, there was some other
driver from the BMW that they were, you know, like pushing me
apart, you know, but but Binky was a great driver to to fight
against. Really.
Yeah. Lovely, lovely guy too.
Yeah, yeah, very nice. They they called him Smokin Joe
here. Smokin Joe Yeah, yeah.
So much smoking. Yeah, I remember there was also
another driver, Erica, Larry, yes, you, you know him.
And I remember when we were doing DTM to get all together.
There was I remember the race in Sax where Alex Sanardi had his
accident. Oh, I know, yes.
Loudest thing, loudest thing. I remember.
I don't know why this this race is the most difficult race in in
the championship. It's really strange because you
have long straight that you can, you know, like just relax.
But in reality, not at all. I don't know why, but at the end
of the race everybody was like dead, You know, I remember
Manuel Reuter. He was just, they asked for hair
for some hair, you know, and you had smoking Joe and Eric out of
the car, just the two of them. It was, it was really funny.
He, he, he, he needed your Marlborough sponsorship for many
years ago. Yes, yeah, sure.
In into 1998 and sort of aside from your exploits in touring
cars, you had six wins that year and you were second in the
championship behind Johnny Ciccotto.
Was that a bit of a a down year in terms of performance or
because obviously your main focus probably was in terms of
going to or your main achievement that is we're going
to Le Mans and winning first time out, which is not bad
going, is it? How?
How was that experience of Le Mans?
The experience of Le Mans it, it was really strange because I was
not supposed to do it because I didn't want to do it because
Eric. Yeah, no, I didn't wanted to do
it because Eric Ellery told me year before, years before that,
that Le Mans was really dangerous, you know, and because
when it's raining during the night of foggy and all these
things, you know, so I didn't really wanted to do it.
And I was really focused into Sprint races into my
championship. You know, I was not considering
any endurance races because I know how difficult it is to to
win the championship. You win the championship for
details, you know, and indrance racing is everything, but not
details because you have to share everything.
You have to share this the seat position, the the, the setting
of the car. And so the, the position is one
thing important that doing, you know, 24 hours in the car, in
the car or not 24 hours, but 8 hours.
This is the worst position I've ever had in my career.
Every in 98992000 and 2001, you know, even in 2000 or 98 big I
was together with Alan Mcnish and Stefan Artilli.
They are. We are the same height, you
know. Yeah, so.
Perfect height. They chose all three of you.
For a yeah, yeah, should have been a good, good, good
solution, you know, because we normally got the, the, the
advantage of not changing the, the seats, you know, So this is
what we've done. But one has longer arms and the
other one has longer legs, you know.
So this is not this is not something that I really liked.
And I was again like, like saying I was not planning to do
the 24 hours level of Le Mans, but I was into the German
championship in the STW and a guy from Porsche went working to
Peugeot, Germany. And when he came there, he he
went and asked me, Laurent, are you interested in for Le Mans 24
Hours with, with Porsche? And I said, no, no, I'm not
interesting. But you know, I give you my
phone number and we never know tell told them to to call me and
see see what, what, what we can do.
And, but really I was not really, I was not interesting
about doing it. But then I spoke to Eric Hillary
and I told him, Eric, I have a proposition, a proposal from
from Porsche. And he said to me, well, Porsche
and Lemoore is Porsche, so you should better think about it.
And I think about it. And then they call me and they
propose me to race together with Alan, which I've.
I was teammate in 91. Yeah, yeah, 1000.
And Stefano Telly, I was also teammate in 94, I guess
something like that, you know. So I really appreciate the two
of them, you know. So I said to myself, OK, why
not? OK, in this condition, maybe I
try that, you know. And then I went there.
I test the car few weeks ago in Puerto Rico.
I, I just make like a one day testing and I, we went to the
race and we won the race, you know, so amazing.
But drop the mic. I mean, you know, OK, put it in
my pocket and. Yeah.
Thank you very much. No, but it was to be honest, it
was a good experience. It was a good experience.
It's not easy. Again, it's very dangerous,
especially in the night, in the night time during and when it's
raining, it's it's, it's a nightmare.
I did not enjoy at all, you know, because there's nothing
you can do with some somebody, you know, because when you're
following the cars, you, you, you can't see anything.
The lights on the on the back you don't see you just see that
there there there are more water coming.
So means that you're approaching the other car, But you know, if
this car is, you know entering the pits with a broken, you know
going 200 K slower than you, you you don't know you go in the
middle of the the the race track and just pray that there's
nothing happened. You know no, so this is not a
good feeling, but apart from that, it was a good experience.
What we what we did with Stefan and Alan.
At the end of the 98 the the the rumors were that you were
offered a drive with Renault in the BTCC for 99 and you turned
it down because they wouldn't let you race at Lamar.
Is that true or? No, it's not for that reason.
No. OK.
Interesting that that was the that was the story was reported
at the time. No, that was not the reason.
So I've been in contact with Frank Williams and this before
that with Didier Dubai. Yes, you remember.
Him. Yeah, yeah.
And so we start to talk together and I had a good contact with
with Didier, so I told him what I was expecting and what was
going to be my condition. Yeah, financial condition.
Yes, yeah. And, and then we, we had a
couple of discussions, phone call I would say, and and then I
had a meeting with, with, with Frank Williams and Patrick Head.
And the the problem was was a problem of money.
Fair enough, I think. I think Williams were well known
for being slightly tight, should we say?
Yeah. Patrick Head would have had
something to do with this. Wouldn't they just know it?
Maybe we're not. We're not.
Paying him that much? They told me, you know, this is
not what we are paying both of of our drivers, what you're what
you're asking for. So I said yeah, well, OK, I'm
sorry. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had also a contact with
Nissan at that time with Alec Poole because, and I knew Alec,
you know, from STW also because he was coming and I had a really
good relationship with together with him, you know.
So Horner wanted to talk to me. So I talk to them.
But already in my mind, you know, I was my preference was
going for the project with Alec and Lisa.
And your your friend Jean Christophe got the job there
instead, yes. Buffy.
So, so in 99 and obviously all the listeners are going to be,
you know, wanting you to talk about this piece, particularly
because this is what you're known for in the BTCC.
So obviously you've just touched on your Nissan connections, but
what were your aims with coming? What did you come in wanting and
expecting to win in your first year?
Or was this like a 2-3 year because you wouldn't have known
the circuits either so that was difficult for you?
Exactly, exactly. And I was always thinking the
same, that one year for learning and the other, the second tried
to win the championship and that was the program for me.
And but then I understood that that Nissan, they were going to
pull out, you know, to be honest, I don't know if I knew
it when I sign it, but I, it was this also, The thing is that
there was also the GTM, you know, I knew already that they
were going to have the new GTM in 2000.
And I was also very interesting about it, you know, to be right
from the start of this championship, to know exactly
what you need. Yeah, you know, again, you know,
to be there in the first year, to know what you need for being
a champion, you know. It's the same for everybody.
Then isn't. It exactly so honestly, when you
start a championship, it's for winning it.
You know, I think all the drivers on the on the grid OK
and but yeah, I was Nissan. I knew that I had a chance to to
have the car and then it was, it was up to me to be competitive
as fast as possible, you know, But I I was not expecting to be
leading the championship, you know, after several races, you
know, the Star was a little bit difficult in the first race, but
then, yeah, also because it was it was really hard.
You know, like drivers in England, they know the circuit
perfectly. You know you've.
Been there for years. Exactly.
And there there was like corners, like medium corners,
which are not typical corners normally, but in, in England
they were because like compared to, compared to McNeil or I
remember some corners in Brundage, there was a corner
that Manny Matt was all the time nearly ten or seven K faster
than myself and David. And we didn't know how to do it,
you know, And it was the case for for for me, but it also for
David. So, and there was plenty of them
during the season, you know, and when I started on the testing,
it was, it was difficult for me because sometimes I was a little
bit far away, you know, on that time.
And like I said, the first race again, we were not so much
competitive. I don't know why, but in this
race, David and myself, we were not, we were not fast for this
first race. And but then it was better
after, fortunately, but. The second race.
The second it was it. I don't remember.
The second meeting, Yeah. Yeah, the second meeting.
Yeah, your first one. Yeah, Darlington.
Darlington was the opener and that you say it was a struggle,
but then you go to Silverstone and yeah, you win, You win
there. And then you went to Thruxton.
I'd love to know your thoughts on Thruxton because obviously
it's a new track for you. It's what, what, what did you
think of Thruxton as a unique, as a newcomer?
Roxton It was terrible for me. Like the first testing we made
we did was two, one or two weeks before the race.
And so we spend there, all the manufacturers, they were there.
And so and we spend a complete day testing, testing the car.
And after one day, at the end of the day, I was 1 1/2 seconds
slower than David even by putting four or five sets of new
tires, you know. So I said to myself, I don't
know if I'm going to be racing for there because I'm too far,
you know. And so when I saw that I was not
fast on lap time, I decided to work for the for the race, you
know, And then I started the first lap out was OK second was
still OK. But then in the third, I started
to lose the car in the fast corners, you know, and it was
getting even worse and worse, you know?
So then I decided to stop in the pits and talk to my engineer,
Ludovic. I think, yeah, it's better not
to go because we're going to be like clowns, you know, if we if
we do that, you know. And OK, so we went back home
and, you know, everything worked in my head, you know, and when I
came back for the race in the quality, the first quality, I
think I was 3 or 410 from the pool.
And the second quality, I was 110 or something like that, I
don't remember exactly. And I won the two races you did.
And I and I realized in the two first laps that they weren't in
the in the same sheet than that I was, you know, during the
testing, you know, that after three laps the car is just
sliding around everywhere. So I said, OK, we'll do that.
Yeah. So and I was, and I was really,
really happy because honestly, I was completely down after this
testing. I can.
Imagine. Yeah.
It must have been a real relief, like, wait, thank you, thank you
a lot. It's all gone well.
Incredible. It's a good job.
You turned up, you, you didn't, you didn't want to go to the
Thruxton. So it's a good job you arrived,
went to the race. It's not too bad, is it?
Those two races there at Throxton were memorable for
Ricardo Rydell and you having the most incredible battle
coming down to the final chicane.
It was brilliant racing and as you say you you triumphed and
took both wins and then you moved on to Brands Hatch where I
don't know if you remember Alan GAO at the start of the year
said any driver that could win 4 races in a row I would give
£250,000 to. Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah. What happened?
No, I, yeah, I don't know.
I, I mean, I was fighting with fighting with Anthony and I was
going to pass him, you know, But then in the in the straight, you
know, in the right corner down the street, we touched each
other. And Mueller break into the the
1st and then I've lost the race and I've lost the 250.
But to be honest, at that time I was not thinking about the
money. I don't know.
I was just thinking about the championship when they asked me
after the race, are you disappointed?
I was saying no, No, I'm not. I'm not disappointed because I
took some points and then I'm just focused on the championship
and and before the race I was not thinking about the money,
you know, yeah, a few months later I would have to, to be
honest, it was a little. Bit it was quite It's one of the
famous pictures of the era, though.
Is that you 3 yourself, Anthony and Ivan all going into paddock
neck and neck. It's a wonderful photograph.
I mean, how Ivan pulled that move off.
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not quite sure.
It's, it's very Ivan Muller, wasn't it?
It was a very typical Ivan move. Yeah, yeah, it was.
And I was, I think I was in the middle, so I was a little bit
blocked. And.
I couldn't do anything just to. Yeah, I I don't know why we
touch each other with Anthony. It was not by purpose, you know,
It's just like we were so close and I don't know, because this,
you know, in with the bumps in this corner and this, you know.
Yeah, it's a very bumpy track. Isn't it?
It's a bumpy track and we, yeah, we didn't manage well in this
situation. I.
Remember Anthony at Brands Hatch couple of months ago were saying
to me Alex, I'm a bit worried Laurent might be angry with me
still over the £250,000. No, no, no.
And he was, he was the guy I was telling, telling you.
And also with John Cleland. We never spoke together during
the season. Yeah, Yeah.
And when we met at Brands a few months ago, I was.
Yeah, I was. It was so nice talking and
surprised to talk to them and see how good they are, you know?
Yes, yeah, that's now. That's now.
Yeah, that's now, yeah. I'm sure.
Then it's exactly like I said before you.
You're rivals, aren't you? It's still, it's still mind
blowing to see Anthony racing his Nissan.
You know, he's, he's only a couple of years off 70 and he's
still racing it so well. It's incredible.
Really fascinating. Dear Lauren, did you see him in
the Nissan jacket? He still has the jacket, The
Nissan team jacket that you have.
Yeah, 19. 90. Still.
Hasn't seen him. Yeah, yeah, he was wearing it.
Still has it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was. It was nice to see them in
brands and yeah. And still racing the car.
I am also, you know, like I wouldn't like to be racing
again, you know, because when I decided to stop, then I just
pulled away from racing in the and because I wanted to be sure
that it was not a good, a bad decision, you know, But to see
all these drivers still driving for passion, you know, they are
really passionated and I'm I am not passionate like them, you
know. That's good.
He had a great career. Back to teammates, obviously
David Leslie was your teammate. Obviously the great David Leslie
is no longer with us, sadly. But how was he for a teammate?
For you? David yeah, yeah, he was really
fast, really, really fast. He was really fast, but I think
I was managing better the tyres than he was and This is why I
could do the difference during the race, you know.
But for being fast, it was fat, I tell you.
Like I said, you know, in Truxton being 1 1/2 seconds
slower than your mate, yeah, it's terrible, you know.
And it was not the only place, you know, there was also some of
the races when I was a little bit slower for the quali.
I was working hard for being faster or better position for,
for the race. But he was he was a really fair
driver, you know, he was, he was giving everything, you know, and
we were talking very openly, you know, like if, if he was not
happy about the situation, he was coming and saying it, you
know. And I was the same.
Yeah, yeah. This is why we managed together,
because there was some situation not easy to start with within
the team because, because I was he was part of the team for
years. And when I came, I had, you
know, for example, when I I decided to come and leave to in
England. And I remember when I went for
the 98, you know, there, there was like a Christmas party for
the team, you know, make a party for the results of the season
and everything. And they invited me there.
So that was great because I could, I could have a first
meeting with the, with the people of the team, you know.
And then at that, at that time, they told me Laurent David is
going to be the test driver for the Michelin test drive, you
know, and I said what? And I and I'm not coming.
And they say, no, it's better because David knows better the,
the car, you know. And I said, OK, so I think we're
going to stop now because I have nothing to do with you if you
don't want me to test the drive the, the tires, because it's the
most important thing. Part of the, the championship is
try to choose the tires for the right tires for, for your car,
you know, and I was, I was doing in it with Peugeot for years,
you know, and I knew how important it was, you know, So I
said, if you're, if I don't go, then I stopped the champion.
I stopped. I didn't even start the
championship with you. I'm sorry.
So there was like, you know, like a bit of a discussion in
between the Alec and the and the also with Ray.
But they understood what I was saying that you want me.
I am here for winning the championship.
You pay me a lot of money and you asked me to stay home.
No, no, this is not the way I I race.
You understand? And I think they understood it,
yeah. Yeah, yeah, because as you say,
it's tricky because David and Ray raced themselves together.
They were team mates at Le Mans in the 80s.
Exactly. Was there any, was there ever
any tension between you 2 on, you know, with team orders or
anything like that? They they've been, you remember
at Bronze Ash, They they give me an order and the was not
supposed to be the case. That gave me in order.
Yeah, yeah. So I, so we had a discussion at
the end of the race and the again, I told them, I know it's
not easy to, to to hear, but I told them, OK, if you, if you
want to do that, I stop here because I don't see the point.
Again, what you want me to do to win or not winning the
championship, What, what are you doing in there?
So it was fair discussion. I mean, we were not like
fighting, you know, but sometimes we had to put
everything together to have a normal situation, I would say.
But like you say, you know, it was not easy because I, I could
feel, you know, the relationship in between Ray and David and
also is, is, is engineer, you know, it was like a family, you
know, and so, but I, I felt the same when I came to the to the
hapt team, you know, in DTM. Yeah, yeah, it was even worse
because this was a, a real family, you know, it was like a
small garage and all the mechanics, they were like the
cousins, the, the friend, the best friend of.
So this is, was really incredible, you know, when I
came there. But then I'm managed to, to, to,
to get involved into the team and that, that the people
suddenly, not suddenly, but slowly by slowly, you know, to
get some interest from them. You know, and I was at that time
in 2000, the car was so difficult, so difficult to drive
and poor grip and everything that he stand up was not
finishing the races. He was, he preferred, you know,
stop stopping the, the race because the car was, you know,
like be dangerous. And I was yeah, yeah, still on
track, you know, try to get the information to make
improvements, you know, on the, on the car.
So he helped me on the way that then they just moved, you know,
the, the effort on my car because Christian didn't want it
to, to work on the car. 99 was a year of ups and downs, I think
with the wins and then, as you said, the team orders and so on.
One of the other controversies that year came at Not Kill and
I'd love to get your eye at your thoughts on Not Kill as a
circuit. That must have been quite a
different one as well. But you had a collision with
Jason Plato that race that saw he disqualified after the race.
What what were your thoughts of as I say, both Not Kill as a
tracks. It's quite a unique track, but
but also that collision with Jason.
Jason, Jason was not fair, you know, he was break testing, he
was slowing down the pack, you know, and I think I spent, you
know, about 20 or more than 20 laps behind, you know, yes.
And that one stage, you know, when we came to the to the, the
breaking for me, I didn't want to push him, you know, at that
point. But for me, he really is, you
know, the throttle. And then I was also surprised to
to bang him, you know, and then into the corner again, he took
the curb on the inside. And because he knew that he was
not going to be quick enough for the rest of the corner, he
slowed down a lot again. And then I said, OK, now it's
over. It's too much for me, you know,
and I pushed him out because this was not, yeah, he deserved
it. He was not racing.
He was not fair from him, you
know. But The thing is, if you if you
look during this year, I was not, I'm not going to talk about
the other championship, but during this championship, every
single race he had contacts or problem with with James, you
remember, was it in? Alton Park.
Yeah, Alton Park.
Yeah. And again, and Jess also for me,
was right to do it in this way, you know, because enough is
enough. You know, normally I don't do
this sort of things because again, you know, sometimes you
can. Yeah.
Because yeah, this was too much
for me. Well, I, I remember that looking
back at that race before you and him had that collision, I think
Alan was leading by about 35 seconds, which was unheard of in
touring cars, you know, that sort of gap.
So that just shows how defensive Jason was and how slow he was.
He was. Yeah, it was really obvious, you
know, he was too much slowing down the pack, you know, he was
doing it in every single corners, you know, so And the
The thing is that when we went to the Marshalls at the end of
the race, I told him that he was breaking everywhere.
And they say sorry, but we can't, we can't see the lights
of this breaking, you know. So he was, he was really smart
because he was just releasing the Trotter.
He was off the Trotter, you know, And this is something that
I, I said that I, I had a lot of things to learn still from the
championship and these kind of things.
I'm sure that I there was against so many things like that
that I had to to learn from for if I was going to stay for
another year, you know? Yeah, to the championship.
What, what did you think of the circuit?
Because when I see Knock Hill, obviously I raced in France for
two years in 99 and 2000, so you know the circuit left and on.
Le'donol yes. Le'donon's grey circuit anti
clock eye is very up and down. It's like NOK Hill is like a
smaller circuit, like a smaller version of Le'donol.
That's how I saw it. But what was your reaction when
you first arrived at NOK Hill? Yeah, like, like you say, it's
the feeling was that the car was really small, quite small.
Yeah, but I like, you know, the chicken uphill, you know,
because I like the rhythm. I I like the ribbon, the rhythm
of the circle over the lap time. Yeah.
And but I would, I would say that for me, the circuits in the
British circuit are the, for me, the best circuits, you know, in,
in what that I've done, you know, into the championships.
Germany, there are many airfield tracks, you know which they're
not bad, but you know, the, the, the, the, the circuit in
England, they are like, for me. Wow.
Yeah, I like it very much. I like them very much.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's a lot of drivers that
have come over from from Europe have have said similar things
actually. Yeah, but because for, for
example, in in in France, like you said, I think Leonor is one
of the best circuit we have in the championship.
Because if you see Polygam and Iku Nogaro, they're boring.
You know, for me, they're boring.
The title decider for you was at Silverstone, So what was your
thoughts going into Silverstone? I don't know if I don't remember
if I was confident, but I I mean, I have done the job, you
know, during the season. I have, I, I have done what I
could do with what I had, you know, and there was some good
races and bad races. And at the end of today, if
you're the man, you're the man. I mean, if it's your turn, OK.
And, and it was it was not an easy race.
And it was in the rain. No it.
Was it was, it was horrendous rain.
It was down. It was absolutely torrential
rain. Yes.
And you and you and David both ended up being sent to the back
of the grid for the first race, if I remember rightly.
I don't know where I finished in the race.
I don't know. I don't remember.
The race was red flagged. Ah, OK.
Because of it was just too wet. So in the race was red flagged.
I think you finished about 5th or 6th, but it was enough.
It was enough for you to to. To win the title, yeah.
It's in the next race, I'm afraid.
You threw it off at 2:00 and 1:00.
Yes, exactly. I remember that.
Sorry. To bring it up, but.
But he But he could do that, Alex.
Yeah. Do what the hell he likes.
Do what you want, Lauren. Your mindset going into that was
just to continue what you'd already done throughout the
season. Just don't change anything.
Just going to the race. No, exactly.
You know, I think most of the championship I won this was in
the last race and to be honest, I'm sleeping very well before
the race. I I have no thoughts, you know,
I don't know, it's a it's a chance, but I have no difficulty
for sleeping before the race. You know, it's not a question of
that. I'm too much confident, but it's
just like I am relaxed. And I mean, there's nothing more
I can do if I and most of the time what I was doing is to, to,
to stay out until 1130 midnight, you know, because if you go to
bed, then start to think and try to too much thinking is not
good, you know. So I remember in, in the
Germany, there was a lot of party in the paddock.
So we were going there. I don't remember in the, in the
BTC, there was no party in the, in the, in the paddock.
No, I don't think so. Too, too boring?
No. No, no, I remember the the the
party for the last race was really good on the in the track.
Yeah, after the championship, I remember that.
As you said earlier, Nissan had pulled out then of the the BTCC,
so you were effectively A1 and done.
You came in, won the championship and then buggered
off. Really.
Was that the hardest championship to win?
Yeah. Because of that one year, yeah.
Definitely because I had to learn everything, the track, the
car, the car was made for me, You know, I tried to adapt the
car, the team, I had to learn. And I like I explained it a bit
earlier that it was not easy to come here in a family team, like
the relationship in between David and the rest of the team.
So it was difficult for me to yeah, to, to add to, to work
with that. It took me a lot of energy and
but I managed to to get the result and so This is why I am
so proud about this championship because this is for me the most
difficult championship I I ever won.
You came in for one season and you just did it.
Like that is impressive. Like, really, really impressive
even now. You know, yeah, you know, but
I'm and I and I realized it later, you know, years later, I
realized what I did, you know? I, I remember the interview you
did with Steve Ryder after you won the championship after the
first race. And I remember specifically that
you dedicated the championship to your little boy that was not
quite born yet, Tom. And I mean, so it was 25 years
ago now. In fact, the anniversary is
probably very, very soon. So it was in September, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So there we go.
So there. That's that, that that must be
quite a nice memory to look back on, especially as I've I've, I
know I've sent you some, some of the videos to show Tom.
That must be quite cool for him to watch.
Yeah, he was so happy he watched them and the I mean, again, even
my, my, my kids, they didn't realize because when I stopped
my car and they were quite young, you know, they were, they
were coming to the circuits. OK, OK, 99 Tom wasn't, wasn't he
was born in nine in 99. But, but even after, when he
came, he came to DTM races and everything, he was there, he was
playing around. I, I think he, he felt the
atmosphere. He felt, you know, the, the, the
fans, the fans around me, what I was in into the, the paddock.
But just, you know, two or three years ago, they just realized
what I was doing at that time, you know, and because now they
are, and especially my daughter now she's a big fan of Formula
One and, and racing. And it's really strange because
one day she asked me, Papa, Daddy, you know, I took my
tickets for the Grand Prix in the castle, you know, two years
ago. And I said, what the tickets for
Formula One, you're going to Formula One.
What the? Hell, shock to you.
Right. Yeah.
It was a shock for me. Yeah.
And I say yeah, yes, Papa, I'm following because of Netflix,
you know? Oh.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Drive her to survive. Exactly.
And now she's a big fan and she's following.
She went to different races, she went to Monza, she went to Long
Castelli. It's another one I can't
remember. And we went to Le Mans or so
they wanted to come with me to Le Mans.
So for the century and we went there and it was, it was really
nice because we went everywhere and there was a lot of people
from motor racing, you know, that they were happy to see me
and giving me some really good words, you know like Loic Duval
or a lot of drivers and also Cedric Vasa.
You know, yeah. Yeah, incredible was because
when we running back to the to the to the garage, my little Tom
was crying, you know, and I said what happened?
But you but Daddy, you, you don't realize what you have the
bus from Ferrari, what he says to you.
And I was also emotionally touched because because of of my
son, you know, that he was crying of.
Course. You know.
I remember when we were, we were chatting at at Brands Hatch and
you said you were surprised how many people remembered you and
wanted to come and talk to you. I mean, that's a similar sort of
experience, I guess that that you had there.
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Because just one year in
England, I understand now that the people were probably, yeah,
impressed because I, I won after one year.
And maybe this is something that they, they, they, they, they
realize or they like. But it was like if I I saw them
the day before, you know, back in 99, you know, when we spoke,
you know, around the, the, the cars, when I was giving some
autographs, you know, Yes, yeah. The people were talking to me
like if we saw each other, you know, the the last weekend.
Didn't you say the same week, the Super Touring Power weekend,
the first one, the Allen menu was very touched and emotional.
Allen was saying yeah, about the whole like you, you turned up
there thinking people weren't really going to bother with him
or. No, I talked to him.
But they were he he was completely overwhelmed with
emotion, I think. From the family, it was like
going. Back in time.
Was it emotional when you were sort of when you were reunited
with, if you like, with the Nissan that you won, when you
went down to the pit lane and, and, and, and saw it?
I mean, what was that like? It's always strange to get back
into a car that you've been winning with.
And I had a sort of, I remember every time I won with my car, I
was going to the car after the race into the garage.
And I love to see the car like a dirty car, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fighting, you know, yeah, yeah.
And I was just touching the car and, you know, just telling
thanks, you know, for what we did together, you know, And
it's, it's really strange. It may be funny, you know, to
hear. But to come back and sit in the
car, everything, you know, comes back, you know, the good and the
bad memories, you know. Yeah.
A few months ago, I bought from Africa the 909090 car.
Yeah. Yeah.
And Erica, Larry told me somebody has your car and he's
selling it, so are you interested?
And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, why not?
So I bought the car. And the first time when I jumped
it to into the car, the first feeling was strange.
The first thing I I, I said to Eric was Basta about I, I was
talking about the to the car that there was so much pressure
on me, like coming up into a championship into a new into a,
a car. This was for me, the Formula 3
was the first car I, I, I drove, you know, and you saw you had to
be fast competitive right from the start without doing any
mistakes, you know, and it's easy to make mistakes with the
Formula three, you know, because if you bang the barrier, it
costs a lot of money. And also because I, I didn't get
all the budget, you know. So I remember that he was like a
hard relationship, you know, he was like not bad memories, but
I, I said to her, it was difficult with you.
Obviously at the end of 99 then Nissan withdrawal, there were
rumours in the press at the time that you were in talks with
Honda to continue in the BTCC for 2000.
I mean did were they talks to starters?
Did you get very far in those chats or were you looking at DTM
because as you said earlier, you you wanted to be in the new
championship from the first year?
I, I don't remember exactly, but maybe there was some, I don't
remember if there, there was a contact.
I don't remember. I don't remember myself talking
to somebody from Honda, you know, but I've, I have been told
maybe that they wanted me to, they wanted to talk to me.
I I I don't know either but I remember there there was
something but I don't remember how.
Right. Yeah.
I was already, I was already in contact for the, for the DTM
without it because they wanted me to drive the, the Le Mans, Le
Mans car, you know, in 99 and, and at that time.
And I for me the deal was I do Le Mans, but the most important
thing for me is the the DTM. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was difficult for them to hear, but it was the case.
Must have. The main thing that sticks out
for me with your stint, especially early on with DTM is
how you were in a not full factory effort compared to the
Mercedes and the Opals. You then sort of developed this
car over the three years and and win the title against Burt
Schneider. He's a, you know, DTM legend in
his own right and Mercedes. That must have been quite a
difficult combination to come up against Schneider and Mercedes
about factory backing you. You must have been pretty proud
to develop the car and and take the tile in 2002 given that.
It was another, again, another difficult start.
Like I said, you know, because the APP team was just like a
family team, a garage. Like I explained already that
the car was really difficult and not competitive at all to start
in the championship. We were about 3 seconds lower
than the the pace, you know, so, but I, you know, I put a lot of
effort for give some more information to develop the car
during the season, you know, and try to reduce this gap.
And at the end of the season, we finish with a 510 difference,
you know, So it was a huge work have been done, you know.
But the, the other thing is that the AT team, they understood
very quickly that they have to put a real team in place for the
next season, you know, and already in 2001, like in a few
months, they managed to, to build a real team, you know,
because I think in the, in the next season, we already finished
third, you know, I, I think in the championship by winning one
or two races. But I was really impressed how
fast they managed to to to put everything in place to make that
team able to fight against, like you say, Mercedes or, or factory
teams. I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And about the fact that it was not now the program for me, I
think it was even better because sometimes with big teams, you
know, or with the manufacturer, I would say more than big teams,
everything is a little bit sometimes long, you know, for
developing or to change things, you know.
And within the team with apartment, everything was fast,
you know, and we could do whatever we wanted, you know,
there was no politics things, you know.
So This is why I think we we managed to win the championship
after three season. And, you know, rather possibly
unusually for some, you, you decided to retire from racing at
the end of 2005 at a relatively young age of 36.
Was there a specific reason for that?
Did you just fallen out of love with competition?
I'd love to know the thoughts behind that.
Well I think 2003 already. I talked to my dad and say,
Daddy, I don't know if I'm still want to go to, to be there.
And he told me, OK, wait, wait a little bit, wait a little bit.
Maybe it's just a period and you're going to change your
mind, you know, but I already in 2003, I was thinking of what I'm
what I'm doing here. I don't know if I want to, I
still want to, to be there. And with this, this pressure and
this demanding things, you know, and then suddenly the open
program came, you know, and I said to myself, maybe this is
what I need, you know, something, something new to go
out from Audi and go to open and try to win with them, you know?
And so this is what I started. And I think, yeah, I was not
wrong because this is what I decided at that point.
But I think that already I was out of the the thing because
because you know, for me, if you ask yourself, then already the
answer is there. Yes, yeah.
If it's, if it's already in your head, yeah.
Exactly. And why I did it?
Because before that, when I was jumping in the car, I was not
asking myself or saying to myself lol you have to be quick
you know? And already in 2003 or 4,
sometimes before the QWERTY, I was saying to myself, OK lol
now, now you have to. And this started to be for me
different. And then I, you know, and then I
realized 2005, I said to myself, I don't want to, I don't want
to, to, to sign another contract or to follow knowing that I'm
not 100 person, you know? Yeah.
And I don't want to sign a contract with a manufacturer by
knowing this, you know, this is not fair.
This is not fair for for them and for myself too.
So This is why I decided to pull out.
Well, Laurent, thank you so much for spending so much of your
very valuable time with us today.
We hope you've enjoyed looking back at your career just as much
as we've enjoyed listening to it.
So on behalf of all our listeners, thank you very much.
Mercy Buku. Yeah.
Thank you, Laurent. Really, really appreciate it.
Thanks. To you, thanks to you.
It was a great pleasure and it was good for me to talk about
all these things because I never had the chance, you know, to, to
explain what I felt, what I, what I was like you said, you
know, after years, after how I, I, I feel about this
championship and then how I, it's, it's done.
So I'm happy. And also thanks to you out there
for listening. This is the start of Series 5.
It's amazing that we're already on series 5 of stories from
Super Touring. And if you enjoyed this episode,
please make sure to give us a five star rating and also
subscribe to the pod if you haven't done so already.
And then next week we'll be back looking back at the 1995 season
opener at Donington Park with everybody's favorite pundit,
Andrew Charman. Until then, we'll see you next
week. Goodbye.