Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome to this week's
episode of Stories from Super Touring and what is the final
show of Series 4? So as ever, we thought we would
give you at home the chance to ask the questions and give
answers to those things that you've always wondered about the
Super Touring era of touring car racing.
This week to answer your questions, Alex, Adam and myself
are joined by World Super Bikes and Moto GP commentator Greg
Haynes, whose love of my sport all started with Super Touring.
Greg, thanks for joining us again the end of Series 4.
How have you enjoyed it? Thanks Levi, thoroughly enjoyed
it because over the winter I started to go through all the
podcasts. I ended up listening to them
almost addictively back-to-back Series 123, literally it could
be two or three a day at one point over the winter.
So it was brilliant and like you say, this is how it all started
for me. I've managed to somehow make a
career out of it so far, but if it wasn't from the British
Touring Card Championship, I definitely would not be here
talking to you now. So yeah, I've got the BTC to
thank for a hell of a lot, quite frankly.
Fantastic. And as ever, thanks for your
contributions so far in the series and again today.
So you've all been busy sending in your questions or series for
us. So let's get into them.
And it gets cracking. So Alex, we've got one for you
to start off with. It's from Aaron Collins.
And he asks why did BMW leave the series at the end of the
1996 season? I can't find any information
anywhere about them leaving and it just seems bizarre
considering the series was getting bigger still every
season at this point. Do you have any answers for Anne
on that one? Yeah, it does seem a little bit
of a bizarre decision from from BMW as as he said, the
championship was growing bigger and bigger.
But I think it was all about priorities and BMW had their
eyes elsewhere. They'd already won the BTCC
quite a number of times at the start of the era and Schnitzer
was starting to mastermind BM WS GT team with the McLaren F1 car
in 1997. They had done a deal with
McLaren for BTCC input in 1996, so there was a very small part
of McLaren engineering in that 1996 car.
So yeah, they were, they were cast in their eyes elsewhere.
They wanted to go into F1, didn't they?
Which as we know they did with Williams.
They wanted to go into Le Mans, which they did and they went and
won in 1999. So BMW basically just thought we
need to start going elsewhere. They were already doing Class 2
touring cars in Germany, so they didn't really have much to
benefit from by staying in England and and doing the BTCC.
So yeah, it was just about new priorities for the mark.
Winning again wouldn't do much for them, whilst winning in Le
Mans and F1 would take them on to newer heights and bigger,
bigger, bigger stages. So yeah, it was it was really
about them just looking elsewhere and thinking we fancy
a bit of that now. We've done this, we've done
touring cars. This is the time to move on.
And that's something I guess that they they've always kind of
done BMWI mean they did that at the end of 92 when they pulled
out of class class one race and. Yeah, I mean, they, they, they,
they were still doing Super Touring.
They, they, they, they competed in the STW.
But that's a German brand in a German series, isn't it?
Which is much more important than competing in a foreign
championship that you've already proven yourself in several
times. And I don't think it helped
weight penalties were were often moaned about, weren't they?
You know, and and it it worsened in 96 with the involvement of
hourly and four wheel drive. So not only did you have rear
wheel drive and front wheel drive arguing, you suddenly
added this 4 wheel drive mix into the into the argument.
So yeah, I think it was just a mixture of different things that
made them think we're probably going to be better off doing
something elsewhere. Our next question comes from a
friend of the pod, Greg Benton, who joined us earlier in the
series to look back at the 1993 race at Dunton Park.
His question asked, aside from Matt Neal, who do you think was
the best of the Independence throughout the Super Touring
era? So I think this is one we can
all have a stab at answering. Greg, should I come to you
first? Independence.
Apart from Matt Neil, he sticks out in your mind.
Hear from 1, Greg to another. That is a tricky question, I
think. Well, I'll have to say the one
who came into my mind first of all, and that's Tommy Rushdad,
who won the Independence Cup in 1998.
He did have a brief factory drive, didn't he, in that
Renault Laguna, famously at Silverstone at the end of that
season when Alan Menu had a right a right Paddy, didn't he?
Over the radio. What do you think you're doing?
I think Tommy Rushdad, although there's a few of them.
I'm trying to think though. Obviously Rob Gravett was a top
independent at one point. Lee Brooks was a a handy driver
who would have been good to see, I think, in a factory car.
But I'd have to go. Yeah, apart from Matt Neal.
I'm going to go for Tommy Rushdad.
Adam coming to you, who would you have in your mind from that
era? Yeah, you got you got Rushdad.
I mean, did one of the KS. That was a privacy opinion time,
James K. That's what that come to my mind
initially. James K.
Yeah, for me, Richard, his brother was quick as well.
Yes, yeah, yeah. So The Cave coming to my mind.
But then obviously you've got a lot Rushdad like Greg just said.
So Chuck one? Really.
Chris Goodwin. Chris Goodwin.
Have an 8. Chris Goodwin, a very good one.
I'm trying to think of like who who went in like a really
particularly old car. You know, Matt Neal would often
have a year old Nissan Rushdad had a year old Laguna.
Did anyone have a stand out performance as an independent in
a really old? Chassis.
I'm trying. I remember, I remember Jamie
Wall doing well in a very old Cavalier in 97 in a car that was
well over two years old at that point.
And it was all distributed sort of wrongly under the bonnet.
It wasn't. I remember Charlie Cox did a
feature on the 97 review and on Grandstand and everything was
sort of right. That's right.
They had the Vauxhall team, They didn't.
They saying, what would you do to this?
And he's like, well, that's not quite right.
That's not quite right. Yeah.
And then he's like, now you've got 70 grand.
He's like. Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, they're looking through some of the some of the
early words. Chris Goodwin I always thought
deserved a bit more, deserved a chance.
Richard Kaye was lightningly quick that year.
He went toe to toe with Lee Brooks.
Didn't didn't win. I was like Blair in 99 as well.
I thought he did rather well, you know, And now that was in a
96 Vectra. OK.
So that's Mark. That's Mark Blair.
Yeah, Three-year, three-year old car at that point, he had one of
the 96 RML Cavaliers and Vectors and did particularly well, I
thought. Yeah.
So you had some talent there. You had some really big, big.
Talent. Another 1 from 99 would have
been Will Hoyer as well, wouldn't it?
Yes, yeah. And he?
Came back, I know you don't think him as a conventional no
independent driver from the era. I guess same kind of falls for
when you think Rod Rabbit, you don't think of him alongside the
typical independence era, but for a lot of the time he was,
wasn't he as well and. Yeah.
On an independent title. And of course, that also means
David Leslie was an independent driver when he took over from.
Colin Blair. In the Pro Motorsport Premier in
2000. Although of course these guys
had had factory drivers, haven't they?
Yeah, but who else was the early night?
I mean, you had Hamish, Irvine, Ian, Ian, Ashley, there's quite
a few in the early 90s weren't. They Nigel Albon, of course you
have. And Nigel, Nigel Smith as well,
for that matter. Nigel Smith.
That would have been a good, but I'm going to have to get rushed
out I think. Yeah, I think that's a fair one.
Yeah, he was probably he's seen or seen like the, you know,
alongside Matt Nil, the the closest to factory drivers.
Yeah, and. Especially later on.
Well, he went on, didn't he? He went on to have a career in
touring cars from that. So yeah.
Do we know why he didn't get a factory drive with someone in
99? Is it just because a lot of the
manufacturers pulled out? Yeah, lack of space, I guess.
Lack of. Drive, Really.
It is a shame. And it's also making this more
difficult to answer. The fact Matt Neil did do so
well. Yeah, isn't it?
You know, it makes it, it makes some of the other independents
less memorable than there perhaps would be otherwise.
Adam, one for you here. Now Tom Phillips has asked why
were the vast majority of Grand Prix drivers or ex Grand Prix
drivers so poor in the series in this period?
So we're talking Janny Moore, Badeli Jean Kristoff Bullion,
Derek Warwick, Jonathan Palmer, etcetera.
And why was Tarquini the exception to the rule and the
only one to really shine? I don't know why Tarquini was
the only one to shine, but Jen, as a general rule, you just look
at it, the disciplines are so different.
You know, you look at obviously Rydell came into it did really
well. His background was single
seaters. Calvin Burt, he came and did a
bit, his background was single seaters.
So it's one of those paths that as a youngster when you go from
karting you either choose single seaters or or you go tin tops.
Obviously you know, most want to go single seaters.
Others very rarely start their career is as a tin time driver
through probably fiestas back then and obviously then it was
to change the Clio's and what have you.
So you go one way or the other and the only thing I could put
it down to is the discipline is just completely different.
You know, you've gone from being absolutely, your backside's on
the floor, loads of downforce, loads of grip, loads of power,
speed, lighter cars and all of a sudden you're in a bigger car
that handles in a completely different way.
You've gone from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, the
engines, the other end of the car, you sat in a different
position. It's just so many different
things and that's the only thing you can really put it down to it
really. And but obviously Taco when he
came in and completely an Audi, but I think his career was
predominantly, you know, single seats Formula One.
But then he had a very long career in touring cars and was
very successful. I think just like Ryder, you
know, But most of them that you'll find that that not
necessarily come from Formula One, but most of the drivers
that were on that grid at some point came from single seater.
But obviously you've highlighted the fact that we're talking
Formula One drivers here. But yeah, I think it's just
coming from something so different.
It's hard to get the head round, really.
Yeah. Greg coming to you now.
Rolling Duty Hill has written in to say top work on series 4.
Thoroughly enjoyed every episode.
Amazing that you managed to get James Thompson on for a pod.
Which driver slash drivers would you have liked to see in period
race in the championship that never did?
That's such a difficult question, isn't it?
I saw that on the script when I had a quick sneak peek a few
minutes ago. And it's a really tricky
question. Alain Prost is somebody whose
name has come up in previous episodes of this show who I
didn't know about until I listened to this podcast.
So thank you for that. But.
I I think from a bit of inside info I've got is that was more
of APR. Right, so you don't think it was
ever a realistic possibility? I think it's more of APR
Renault. Yeah, it may work on.
I mean, it would have been great.
If it had happened. And I I think he'd have done it
right at it as well, to be honest.
Yeah. Are we talking though drivers
who were a realistic possibility, who didn't get
there or anyone? Because then you could say, you
know, would have been great to see Mika Hakkinen in the year or
whoever. But yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe
Colin McRae. I know who that's someone who
gets a lot of feed. We get a lot of feedback on the
social media, don't we, about Colin after his very
entertaining and dramatic Knockout 92 before he went on to
become World Rally Champion in the Subaru.
You know, there's other top touring car drivers who did some
of the Tokyo shootouts. I mean, Hana, people like that.
You could say it would have been nice to see maybe Mueller come a
bit sooner. Fabrizio Giovannardi, actually,
that's got to be the answer, hasn't it?
How could it not be? It's got to.
Be 98. So that would have been, that
was what I was about to say, that Alfa Romeo 98 programme
with Lorini and Giovannardi, that would have been great to
see. Yeah, that's true.
And for the whole thing to come together because Giovannardi is
one of, if not the number one touring car driver across the
whole of Tory car racing ever. That's obviously what he was, a
class act for Rich Class act, yeah.
I mean, he was, he made a name for himself in in Peugeot,
didn't he? As well as Alfred Mayes.
Yeah, with Gary Ailes. Of course, as Gary said in our
episode earlier in the series, Italian champion.
It's got to be Giovinardi, hasn't it?
It's got to be for Rich Sergiovinardi.
The other one that was linked with the Mercedes drive in 93
was Schneider Bern Schneider. That would have been cool.
That had been. Yeah.
And he was. He was dominant in DTM, wasn't
he? That would have been called the
sea as well. I.
Mean, yeah, that's true. Who else?
Like Dirk Muller, people like that perhaps, who did well in on
the continent, who never came to Britain at all.
Hans Duck. Klass, Ludwig.
Were. Like that, they were like, you
know, great names weren't. They OK?
He did. He did quite a bit in DTM,
didn't he? Yeah.
I'm interested, you know, I think Giovinardi would have, you
know, done, but I mean, it would have probably be more a car
issue. I'm guessing in 98 success with
him. But I'd have been interested to
see how Schneider would have adapted to because he generally
was more with a client. You know, he was much more
successful in Class 1 racing and what became the modern DTM was
kind of a, a spin off of, of Class 1 racing that I'd like to
have seen how he'd done in, in A2 litre Super Tour in Carlo,
slightly different. Yeah, front going from rear
wheel drive to front wheel drive as well.
Yeah. So one, I've been an easier
transition as well, but you'd naturally think, obviously
you're going to think touring cars, touring cars are the same,
very different cars. It would also be it would also
be interesting if we'd seen a few more motorbike races make
the change, the transition, because Johnny Chicotto did that
successfully. Aaron Slights actually had a
pretty strong run, didn't he? Early 2000.
Come over earlier, yeah. Exactly, and he was a keen car
racer and the good thing, as you know, Adam was a fellow big bike
fan. The bike races feel so over
protecting, whether in the touring car.
Well, but look, look at Rusty, you know, he's a family man now
how obviously he realizes the danger of of motorbikes.
He's, you know, he's done with that now as as they do get to
that point and he's achieved all that he could ever have achieved
of. And now he's out winning and
competing, doing racing BMWs in the GT championship.
So he's obviously loving life and.
And it would be nice, as we, as we said in last week's show, if
you could have one of the current F1 drivers.
We mentioned Steve Ryder last week.
He's desperately what, hoping someone like a Hamilton comes
across. The problem is now the money's
not in the series like it was, you know, in the 90s is it?
But no, for that period we've we can't not say for Brit so
juvenile, can we? To to slightly spin off that
question, Greg, then if you had to choose a motorcycle figure
from the 90s, motorcycle race from the 90s to have raced, who
would it have been? Oh, I think because it's the
British Touring Card Championship, it should be
someone British. So you'd probably have to say
Carl Fogarty, wouldn't you, Carl?
Yeah, Carl, I think you say that.
Carl is also enough of a lunatic to have a real go in and I think
you'll buy me saying that have a go in in the British Touring Car
Championship. Then again, Mick Doohan, five
time 500CC world champion back-to-back from 94 to 98.
He's a big car man and his son Jack do.
And of course he's now racing. Yeah, so that would have been
quite interesting. Yeah, he's a car, Poggaty.
Yeah, he was stepping in for a oh, car, Monty.
Foggy. Foggy was sniffing around at
Alton Park in 1998 against with Peugeot.
Really. Yes.
Yeah. Interesting.
Yes, that's interesting. He was a guest of Micklinford's
and there were rumours at the time that he might give it a go,
but oh. There you go.
Oh, there you go, and. So he's on the, I'm sure he's on
the coverage, the second Alton Park.
OK meeting, yes I did Coxy interview him on the grid.
Yes, yes, I believe he. Did I'd forgotten about that,
but you've just also our colleague at Eurosport, Shane
Shaky Burn, who's six time produced Super 8 champion, had a
very, very bad career ending accident at Snetterton testing
in 2018. And he was actually testing with
team hard to perhaps race in the BCCC.
But the risk is if he has another accident he could cause
serious, yeah, life changing injuries.
So it was wasn't going to happen.
But I know Shaky was thinking about it.
Yeah. And that was only a few years
back. Wow, yeah.
I think he did a test with them at Brandon's Hutch.
I think it was OK. Alex got a question here from
Fraser Thorburn, who asks is it true that Mercedes-Benz were
considering a work sentry at some point?
I've heard rumours that they were.
Yes, it is true. In 1993, Pro Drive were linked
with running 2C classes for the second-half of 93 for a full
assault on the 1994 championship and they'd be driven by Bern
Schneider and Tim Segdon. Tim Segdon being a Pro Dr.
contracted driver at the time. Now there's not very much else
known about this story. However, I can tell you that we
have been in touch with Tim Segdon and we are hoping that he
will come on the pod very soon, so maybe he will be able to tell
us more about it. Would have been very interesting
to see what a Mercedes deal would have looked like.
I do have a mock up of the car somewhere.
I shall try and put it out on our socials at some point.
And it was in a it was in a silver livery with with mobile
Mobile One sponsorship. It was a interesting looking
car. It would have been great
wouldn't it? Another addition to the 93 grid
and obviously the 94 grid. But yeah, it never came off.
Mercedes instead decided they want to carry on concentrating
on Class 1 racing because that's where they felt they would
benefit more for their marketing.
So yeah, it's assume it never happened.
We hope that in the next series we'll be able to tell you a
little bit more about it. Next up and Matt James has
written in saying Hi guys, great podcast.
My question is, would the era have benefited from success
Ballast being introduced earlier than it was in the year 2000?
I personally prefer the more pure film of racing, but it
would have been interesting to have seen the field closer
especially in 1997 and 1999. Adam, as someone that raced
success ballast in touring cars, what what do you think?
Would you think it would have added to the series had it been
introduced earlier in period? Yeah, of course.
I think, you know, the likes of, you know, like we spoke in
previous podcasts about like the dominance of ILO or the
dominance of venue and things like that.
I think, you know, This is why the balanced success battlers
came in to, to stop the dominance, you know, So yeah, it
definitely would have had an impact.
It's there to to exactly do that, slow them down and, and
let the others catch up ready or give them an opportunity just to
make the the racing fair. Because nobody wants to see
somebody out in the front, you know, 10 seconds in the lead
every week. And which I know rarely happened
within touring cars and there's always something going on.
But yeah, success balance was introduced for that very reason.
As a driver, as a team, no, you don't want to.
But as a fan, we all want to. I hated success balance I was.
Waiting for that, but that's. Just slowing down your face
every It's probably. No, no, no, no.
I just, I, I liked touring cars as pure as possible, and if that
meant Alan Menu winning 12 races in a Renault Laguna, so be it
Yeah, I the. Showcase was the biggest fashion
showcases, the work and the F and everything completely of
what they've all done and they so that's why the teams don't
like it. And I I agree with you in terms
of, yes, great, they've done the best job.
They've done all the pole positions, all the race wins.
They deserve it because they've done the best job.
Yeah, I agree, it does help. It does help.
But obviously it's helped. Alan Gow is obviously thinking
from a fans perspective. Yeah.
And again, it's just that debate, isn't it TV?
For the team, yeah. No, I, I, I get, I get the, I
get the argument for it and I get why most fans are for it.
But yeah, it just, it just never, I was never won for that.
Sort of it's the same. It got to a point a couple of
years ago in the BTCC. Again, I don't follow it
massively now, but it got to a point where I think they had 16
different winners out of 30 races or something like that.
That's too many. That's too many.
And that devalues the victories then, because there are some
drivers who should have won touring car races over the years
but never got the chance to because of the machinery they
were in. And then you've got you've got
weight, ballast, penalties and then forced tires, you know, or
you've got to run this really soft tire that's quick for five
laps but then falls apart for the next 10.
You can't win a race with a tire like that.
Yeah, plus plus with the old EC US and stuff and having control
over them and you know who's got what power where and it's all to
make it as close as possible. So yeah, as a team, as a as a
driver, absolutely not. Yeah, from a TV perspective.
Oh, gold, that yeah. That's and that because that's
where the, that's where the, the, the money's coming from.
So unfortunately it's just the way that is.
I feel like I feel like it's kind of as you say as well that
TV element of it though is it's kind of reflective of where I
think if it had been introduced earlier, the series wasn't at
that point where it kind of had that established viewer base of
34 million that would TuneIn on grandstand every week.
It was on to watch it. Where is now?
You kind of need it because you want people to switch it on and,
you know, switched it on. Going through the TV, guys see
it and all they hear is shout in action, cars getting past F
right and centre and that's got to be the hook now.
I think the the only way to to eradicate it and not have
success ballast, and I've said this in previous episodes, is
make it have it A1, make championship.
Just have it a complete one make championship.
Everyone's got the same car, same tyres, same amount of
tyres. Just make it a complete one.
Make championship. Yeah, I, I.
Don't worry about the success ballast then.
I agree and disagree with different things you all said
there. I don't think I'd go for the One
Mate championship because I think part of the appeal of the
BTCC, particularly there was the fact you did have all these
different cars. I think, as John Cleland said,
a. Couple of I think I think about
that yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't change it
for that for the Super Touring era.
I'm thinking like now I. See.
As as things stand now, because none of us are really motivated
by what we see or what we hear or the way touring cars is at
the minute, Make it a championship and that'll bring
your fans back. That'll bring some
entertainment, new fans, new kids watching it.
But yeah, Super Touring here. I love the fact that it was all
different manufacturers, different teams, Williams, RML,
you know, TWR, they're all going at it.
And a lot of wouldn't change any of that.
But yeah, you're just trying to fix an issue now.
Or if it's not an issue, but if you wanted to make it more
interesting than what it is now, make it a one way championship.
Yeah, because one of the reasons as, as Cleddon said a couple of
weeks ago was that like you've sort of just alluded to Adam,
they don't really now look like the road going cars, do they?
Whereas in the Super Touring era they did, it did look like a
Monday or Laguna or Vectra or whatever.
That's it. Like you look at a Primera, like
you look at me in the flesh then nothing like the road car.
When I when I'm on the road now and see one of those models of
those cars, I still get excited because I'm thinking of the
touring car version and like our good friend Alex Clark.
And I think it's time, considering this is the final
episode of the series, once commentated on a crashed
Vauxhall Cavalier during a school trip on the coach.
And I'm really glad I've just remembered that because I nearly
forgot to mention it. I'll come back to what I was
going to say. Alex, can you just talk us
through that? I might have got hold off when I
was in year five in school for being on on a coach trip
somewhere for a school trip and we got delayed because there was
a a pretty serious collision on the motorway.
And it it happened to be a Vauxhall Cavalier that was
unfortunately involved in the collision.
And I might have started shouting it's clan and Oh my
goodness. On the couch.
On the couch with all my. Advisors.
Yes. Ladies around.
And yeah, I did get a bit of a rollicking for that one.
Oh, she don't be, don't, don't do that.
It's someone could be seriously hurt in that.
Yeah. Let's hope they weren't, by the
way. No, I was going to say as well,
but I'm glad we got that in, though.
That's not being edited out, Kyle.
I know you've. Got the power to do so.
But no, I was going to say as well.
I mean, one thing Alan Gow does say even now is that if you do
look at the Super Touring here and the way that it was, we we
did get dominant cars. We often had more seasons than
not. There was one dominant car in
team. But the manufacturers were
involved and that's why, yeah, they they were clever, clever
people. So that would lend itself
towards needing success ballast, although I would just say
because we didn't have as many live races, they only started in
97 and even then it was just a few per year.
They didn't need the success ballast as much because they
could do some clever stuff with the editing of those amazing PHP
BBC grandstand highlights. So it didn't really matter as
much. But the fact of the matter is
some of those races look very, very close and they're actually
dominated by Winklehark or Tarquini or Aiello or whoever it
was menu depending on the season.
Peter and the Audi ran away with it.
Many. Times watching Verstappen, isn't
it the the camera's not on them at the front?
Yeah, they're showing you the stuff that we're exactly what's
going on. Exactly.
So when you watch the seven or eight minute highlight that's
put up by F1 on YouTube now, you know, it doesn't really give
you, well, you still get the impression of the dominance, but
not as much as you would if you watched the full race, I'm sure.
So I, I don't know, we only had success ballast for one season,
didn't we? Ultimately of the Super Touring
era, which was the 2000. That I yes, yeah.
And it was pretty. It was pretty.
I think if you if you had a maximum of a third place, you
got 20 kilos, maximum of a second place you got 30 kilos
and 4:40 for any race victory. Yes.
Was it based on have I got this wrong or was it based on
championship position when you came into the meeting and then
race 1 results for the second race, is that right?
Right. That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, they were kind of
forced to do that work, though the fact we were down to only
three factory teams or three factory entrance.
Because it's a different thing. Yeah, four.
I mean, otherwise you might you might have found that Ford would
have just wiped the floor. So yeah, it might have been
necessary. Which which they did anyway,
despite the success balance, didn't they?
But no, it it definitely shook up some results in 2000 though.
So it did work, didn't it, from that point of view.
Greg, a question for you next. Ian Wilson has asked which
independent driver from the era would you have liked to have
seen given the chance in a works machine?
I think you've already kind of touched on who your choice would
be earlier when we were discussing our favorite
independent drivers from the era aside from Matt Neil, but give
you the chance to to answer that one.
Which independent driver from the era would I like to have
seen? Do we not have this question
before? When I said.
Yeah, that one was. No, it was who is the best?
Matt Neil. But I think you, but you did go
into it in terms of people who might have seen maybe have a
chance, you know? So I've answered the this
question before having another accident idiot because I don't
know what else I can say to that because it would be the.
Same for me. I would love to have seen
Richard Kay. I think he deserved.
I think he went so well in that Cavalier in 96.
It was an interesting battle with Lee Brooks in the Toyota,
which was a less competitive car.
And it was almost here in the Tortoise race because Brooks
would have the consistency racket points.
Whereas Richard Kay was pretty much win or bust, literally
broke his leg at some point that season and still raced.
So I remember him climbing in the podium.
I think it was at Donnington in a cast Nick.
Where did he break his leg? Can you remember?
I can't remember, no, can't remember offhand and I.
Remember him having? I don't think he broke his leg,
but I remember him having a massive crash at Alton Park at
1:00. Point Yeah, that wasn't the And
of course it was a crash that ended his season in the finale
because he crashed in the morning warm up, which meant he
couldn't race so Lee Brooks won the title in his Toyota.
Ah. Yes, and I run it.
Of course, Lee Brooks would go on to have a big crash in the
finale. Yes, in 97.
Yeah, in his Peugeot. Yeah, Ireland.
I was a nasty one, that one, actually.
I remember that. Yeah, he got airborne over the
curb. Yeah, the island.
She came, didn't he? There was, yeah, there was a
couple of big shunts there, right right down.
Had a big one in 98. Yeah, but another one I've
already mentioned that Chris Goodwin it was he was even
though the quick talent it would have been good to see him in a
in a in a works car give my. Also also of course Matt Neil
because he offered to drive the 99 Works Nissan for free.
Once really had gone and they ended up paying Lauren, I had
what was it, 700 or 7? 100 grand, Yeah. 700 grand,
which has got to be in the top three of highest paid drivers.
I nearly said this in last week's show, actually, I forgot
to say, so I'm glad I've thought of that.
He missed out on topping it up by another 250 though, didn't
he? Yes, he did a couple of times,
yeah. He did, Really, Yeah.
Do you reckon Ielo is the highest paid driver for a single
season? I I guess the four drivers of
2000 were not far off, but I would say that is, isn't it?
For a single season one and go yeah, I would say so.
Yeah, Reid wasn't far behind and nor was Ireland, but yeah, 700
Ki think it's the highest I've heard.
Because if he hadn't have let, who did let through at Brands?
If he hadn't, if he defended that, he'd have done the race
and then he'd have got his 200. And 50, he was bound to have a
chance. He was bound to have a
championship bonus as well, wasn't he?
Let's be honest, with race win bonus he would have had a
Goodyear. No wonder he's.
No wonder he retired and became ADJ.
I think Adam Jones was on similar money in 2008 actually.
Oh what? 750 Quids.
It's one for us all. Next on this question, which is
your favorite commentary line up?
Oh, let Alex go first because I know what his is and it's.
No, yes, yeah. It is controversial because most
people will answer Murray to this and I won't.
And for me it's Charlie Cox and John Watson.
Not that I didn't appreciate Murray, not that I didn't rape
Murray. Murray was brilliant.
But for the style of racing, for the, the, the the banter, the
chemistry between them, the fact that Cox was good for one liners
and I loved what he's really, really harsh put downs.
I just, I just don't think you can beat those two for, for for
the style of racing. That is somebody said the other
day I saw, why didn't they, why didn't they have that for F1?
It's like it wouldn't work for F1, that style of commentary.
Cox and Watty wouldn't have worked what he was a great F1
commentator, but he did. There was a different style to
his F1 commentary than his touring car commentary.
And, and of course, no one else would have called Tim Harvey
rude boy Tim so. Yeah, that the, the only thing I
disagreed with with Watty when he came on the show a few weeks
back was the fact he said you can't have A1 commentator
broadcast. Because Murray proved time and
time again. Murray's done it, yeah.
Exactly. You can.
Yeah, of course you can.
Obviously Watty prefers to and I understand where he's coming
from and you get that banter that you can't get with one.
But what Murray was so good at was engaging the audience and
bringing in a new audience and making a few little deliberate
mistakes in the recorded highlights, knowing it wasn't
live and knowing it wasn't correct to make it more natural.
Because let's remember, most of those races were recording
highlights in a studio. All pop.
Together, he'd have already known the results.
He would have already known the results.
Oh, there's there's been a big shunt between Cleland and Super
for the title I've got no. Sound like it's just happened,
couldn't they exactly it always make it always make it sound
like it just happened. But Steve Ryder is in my head as
well. Yes for I know we did like the
highlights and grandson stuff but just his voice.
Yeah, as an anchor. As an anchor, he's superb.
And again, growing up as a kid, I was in the background, I was
around my grandparents house and then it was on in the on a
Saturday and I could hear it on Stratton.
It's just his voice. So for me to race in the era
that I did it in for Steve to then come and be involved in it
and to talk to him. And like that blew my mind.
The fact that I've grown up as a kid listening to him and and
sort of him as a bit of a, you know, the the main guy at the
time is, you know, that voice will never will never leave me
all these years on. So to to be interviewed by him
when I've then gone into, you know, just like a box ticking
next. I was really just unbelievable
brilliant. Never thought it'd ever happen.
And yeah, I still think now I think it'll be won't be the same
not having him within the championship now.
I'm sure because it's just one of those voices.
It's just you just associated like he did the route rallying
as well, didn't he? That's true.
And Steve Slater. Steve Slater was great.
He served with Murray and Barry, of course.
Barry. Yeah, Barry did a great job.
One thing that was the entertainment of the the touring
cars. You know, you've got stuff to
talk about. You know, you're not trying to
think of anything because I don't know about you, Greg.
Obviously I know the bikes are really entertaining, but, you
know, it's got to be your worst nightmare to have to comment out
on something really boring. Yeah, well, because that's
because that'll just make your job harder.
So I suppose you're thankful that you're with the bikes.
To be honest. There's always something
happening, isn't there? Yeah.
And I did some commentaries recently for TNT Sports on Motor
GP classes at Mudgello and before that Barcelona and they
were practice sessions primarily and they're 40 or 45 minute
sessions and that's a lot more demanding than A7 lap race
because the race almost takes care of itself.
I think another thing that was brilliant about the 90s as well
is that because we didn't have as many channels, we only had
the BBCITV. Channel Four started in 82,
Channel 5 didn't start too much later.
Sport had its own commentator, didn't it?
Primarily. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So and that gave it such identity and the BBC theme
tunes, the snooker, the golf, the the chain for F1.
Yeah. So you have Murray on
Motorsports. Obviously there's a few others,
but Murray you had I think. You hear his voice, you know
it's something you've got a passion for.
And these people were more household names than a lot of
the competitors in the sports. Whispering Ted Lowe on the
snooker, Yeah. Bill McLaren on rugby.
Bill McLaren, John. Mobson on football?
Yeah. Ryan Moore?
Yeah. Sid Wardell on the darts.
I mean the list is endless. Alex, one for you now Chris
Phillips has got in touch to say that Remus for 1996 whether Andy
Rouse would prepare a team of privately run Ford Mondeo's with
Tiff Nadal suggested as a driver with the four-cylinder engine,
would the Andy Rouse cars have been faster than the factory
cars that season, adding that he thinks they would have been.
What are your thoughts on that one?
I think Andy Rouse prepared snails would have been quicker
than the 4th Mondeo works team of 1996 to be quite honest with
you. I mean the the the big Achilles
heel for Rouse at the time was the fact that it was a mandated
thing that the engine had to be the V6 block.
Whereas it was well known that Andy thought that it would be
much quicker with the car would be a lot quicker and a lot more
balanced to run a 4 cylinder engine, which obviously he lost
that battle and he lost the Ford contract.
So he never really got to test that out.
So the rumour was that he was going to run a pair of four
Mondeos with the four-cylinder engine in it with Tiffany Dell
as one of the drivers. And yes, I think they would have
been quicker with it without without a doubt.
Apparently the the V6 engine used to eat the tires and that
would cause the car to just fall back.
And that's why he qualified well.
And it raced well opening laps and it would just fall back in
the way and in. And yeah, in the wet it did
well. But in 95, that car just fell
further and further back down the grid.
And that was why that was supposed to be the reason why.
So, yeah, it would have been interesting to see.
I wonder if Andy now looks back and thinks, yeah, I should have
run those rather than those those old, old Nissan premieres
that he run from from the trim Germany.
Yeah, it would have been interesting and it would have
been nice for Tiff to have had a proper crack at the series, you
know, you know, but because I think Tiffany down in a in 1/2
decent car with a bit of testing behind him, probably would have
been half decent. He never.
Really quick questions. Two quick questions #1 when did
the V6 first come in? 93. 93.
Yes, they always had to run that V6 right.
But that car didn't seem to eat at the time.
No, did it? No, I think the arrow the
additional arrow didn't help in 95.
I see. With the extra downforce, yeah.
So was that a combination of? Was the tyre eating a
combination of the downforce and the weight of the actual block?
Yeah, and there might have been really more power then took a
couple of years. Later, yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah. So, But yes, Andy was always
adamant that the the four-cylinder engine would be
the better option. So funny it was a couple of
years later W Surrey did the same thing with the MG, didn't
they? They always had to run the V6
engine when they were the works MG program.
As soon as they turned those independent of those those those
cars into forcing their independent cars.
Reed had his strongest season in an MG so similar argument could
be said there really. But yes, they would have been
quicker than the work sports because they were a complete and
utter disaster. Of all the team manufacturer
combos through the 90s, you've got to say the 96 Mondeo effort
may well be right up there. It's the worst of the lot,
unfortunately, when you compare expectations to the reality.
Yeah, and that dismal opener for W Surrey at Donnington, where
Rather Sitch and Robertson crash into each other at Redgate.
Yeah, that if you even now, if you watch that back nearly 30
years later, it almost happens in slow motion.
Doesn't it? It does, doesn't it?
Yeah, it really does. Robertson spins it.
It's like go left, go anywhere. But no, the meat in the middle
is awful. Yeah, that's terrible.
Yeah. Adam Lee Allen has got in touch
to say, hey guys, love the podcast.
Fantastic series Again. Thank you very much, Lee.
And his question is, if you could take one aspect of the
Super Touring era and put it into the current series, what
would it be and why? Well, without saying that the
rule book it's just changing. So you could just completely
change the whole design of the car and it might attract some
manufacturers to come in and and have a go at doing a good job.
But I'm trying to think what he's different really.
I mean, probably the pit stops. They don't have pit stops
currently, you know, coming in two tires, Havoc in the pit
lane, pit lane speed limit, Ultimate carnage.
Yeah, that could that could thrust brand in the works,
couldn't it? Like sort things up a little
bit, Yeah. A little bit of strategy in the
in the mix. Yeah, I think they're going to
strategy. Do you pit early just to so
you're not a bit bit like if you watch the IndyCar Series at the
minute, you know it's normally carnages isn't as they constant
pit lane. So you know, you pit a bit early
to avoid all of that. But then obviously tires are
going to peak too soon. For me it would be the the
quality of drivers and the field, international drivers and
that's no disrespect to the top three or four.
I watched the BTCC the other day.
I was telling Greg about it, she wasn't.
I hadn't watched it for quite a long time and I sort of thought
now I will give it a go and I didn't really enjoy it.
But apart from the top three or four, I don't think there's
really that much quality in the field.
And I think I'm. Going to say apart apart from
the drivers then. Yeah, what?
I'm just saying I didn't realize you're going to get that deep
into changing all the drivers out to be.
But in the in the seaport, yeah, in the, the.
Characters like I said before in a different previous.
I mean, we look at last week's episode where we were all
struggling to put some drivers into the top 10 and I don't
think you've got that depth in in quality now.
I don't think you've got it anywhere near in, in, in in
quality now. And where did it, where did it
all go wrong then? Because if you look at Grand
Prix racing for either cars, Formula One or bikes, which is
mostly GP, it was a false economy, wasn't it?
In many ways because you had the tobacco sponsorship for when
sponsorship started, sort of 60s, early 70s.
And they had an endless pot of gold, didn't they?
Even Jordan and looking at him as funny.
Exactly. Cigarettes the.
Whole time, Exactly. So if you look at the 1990s F 1
field, you had Rothmans, you had W, you had Marlborough with
Ferrari, you had Benton and Hedges.
Didn't you, like you say with Eddie Jordan, whence that went?
And certainly with bikes, there's been a big difference,
big difference with the EU upping there, their laws not
allowing tobacco sponsorship and all the rest of it.
Energy drinks has replaced it in in many ways, but not to the
extent that tobacco do because like you say, I don't.
It was an endless part there. So I'm just trying to think who
were the main sponsors in the BTCC who we've lost because
these manufacturers still exist. It's not that they don't exist
anymore, they're still there. So where did it all go wrong?
It obviously got very expensive. I.
Don't think I don't think I, I think touring cars is really
going to suffer existential crisis at some point because the
manufacturers don't really want to sell the type of cars that
traditional touring cars are, quite simply, especially.
When you've got manufacturers, they're only announced, you
know, they're announcing, oh, we're only going to make
electric vehicles from. Now on Yeah.
And like, you know, so it's just completely the world has
changed. The world has changed.
You're either buying a little super Mini, like a little
Citroen or a little Peugeot, or you're buying a Range Rover or
an SUV. There's no yeah, Mondeo, there's
no Vectra, no Cavalier. There's Peugeot 406.
Is that? Family saloon anymore.
No, that's the thing, isn't it? Because SU VS or the SU VS.
Yeah, it's the same with world super bikes.
They are based on road going machines, not like Moto GPA, not
like F1 touring cars and super bikes are based on road going
machines. Yeah, and the markets change, so
we're going to have to adapt to, you know, this is going to sound
a bit ridiculous, but why not race the Range Rover or the OR
the little Super Mini or? I know that sounds a bit mad,
but it would get people's attention.
What they're doing in Brazil, the stock cars are based on SUVs
now, but they've done. That for some time.
Haven't they have they right? And I'm.
Sure that their their champion is completely different.
Is that is it fun to watch? You're guessing it is.
I think it's more like silhouette racing, so no.
It's just body, You'll recognize the body on it, but in reality,
but in in France, when I did single season in France in Nice
start 2000, it was a silhouette championship then that competed
on on the same weekends that we did.
So that the silhouette thing's been something that's been done
a long time ago. I think bit.
Bit like when NASCAR S didn't the NASCAR over here, it was
like that. Vauxhall got more coverage when
they sponsored the four home nations in football and they did
putting a touring car team together.
And I, I think that's the simple difference I think is that
ultimately for the manufacturers, it is just a
marketing exercise. I think the world has changed
slightly in the sense that they see it more as a marketing
exercise these days, and maybe they did.
When? They saw it like they used to as
a test of the engineering that that's not a thing now because
cars are just reliable. So you don't need to go and race
it to show it's reliable. People assume it is and and go
from there with the Internet and reviews and build quality and
things like that, but also advertising to change the nature
of it's change. It's all about social media and
sponsored posts and things like that.
So, you know, if there's an algorithm that's going to follow
you to the buyers, you're going to pay for that and and get
almost a higher rate of success than put money into a project
that might not even show your product in a good way, which
ultimately is what money to sport is.
It's, you know, and, and I think you're seeing it in the, in the
this, the things that are succeeding are the higher end
stuff like the sports car racing, where the performance of
a racing car is going to be a big factor to a purchaser of
someone that's looking at hundreds of 1000 LB supercar.
They're going to be bothered how quick it is.
But for average family cars, that's not a thing now.
And that that's the big difference.
I think the world's changed in that regard, hasn't it?
Great one for you John Corley asks.
Thanks for the great podcast. I'm a massive fan of Anthony
Reid and wonder if he doesn't leave Nissan to get in the Ford
in 1999. Do you think he'd have won the
title that year? In a word, yes.
Yes I do. I think there's there's three
drivers in the Super Touring era who finished second at least
once who never won the championship.
One of them is Steve Soper. One of them is Anthony Reid.
Twice and the other one is David Leslie.
Reid is the best driver in my opinion to compete in the Super
Touring era. I know some of you guys are
probably going to say SOPA here, but in my opinion it's Reid who
didn't actually win it. Although I didn't put Reid in my
top ten last week and I did put Leslie in, I do think Reid was
the best driver not to win the championship because of his
championship positions. Even though I think Leslie
probably did more for the series over the 10 year period of Super
Touring. But Reid was very close to
missing out to Rydell in 98 and then to menu in 2000.
He went to Ford for 99 before the end of the 98 season.
He could have taken the number one to Ford, couldn't he, if
he'd won that. Championship.
Yeah, yeah, he could have done, yeah.
He got, yeah, he got a massive money off They didn't.
He, as we've heard on this show before, and he doesn't regret it
to this day, even though he didn't win the championship.
No life changing. He called it life changing.
Yeah. So, you know, although to be
fair, he could have won the championship anyway in 2000 and
he and he changed pressure. Yeah.
So anyway, yes, to cut a Long story short, I do think he
would, because it would have meant Aiello wasn't there, Reid
would have been there. Aiello beat Leslie and Reid had
beaten Leslie the year before. So I think, yes, Reid almost
certainly would have won the 99 championship if he'd stayed at
next time. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. No, no, no two ways about it.
Probably even more dominant than Aiello.
Really. Knew the team, yeah.
Knew the team. Knew the car.
The car was designed around him, he said.
It used to fit like a shoe, and he says it still does.
No, it's in the car now, nearly 25 years later, and it fits like
a shoe. The only thing I would argue,
and I don't know whether I'm just playing devil's advocate,
you may well disagree, but Reid, in the episode you had a couple
of weeks back, said that he and Leslie had very similar driving
styles and it was great for sharing data.
I just wonder had Reid stayed, would Leslie's results have
maybe been a bit better in 99 because he was quite
inconsistent whereas Aiello obviously went off?
On his quite possibly. Possibly.
They might have been a bit more evenly matched perhaps.
Just quite possibly he's. Putting that out there.
But yeah, you have a point there.
But I imagine that. That was very different.
Wasn't he? At what point in a championship
fight does the data sharing stop?
Yeah, good point. I don't, but knowing the
gentleman Reedy and Leslie are, would it have done?
I don't know. I don't know.
I still think Reed would win it though.
It's a It's a question you ask RML, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, true. You have to do that at Brands
Hatch. You know what?
Did that ever happened? Did it ever got requested by any
of your drivers or did they just get on with it?
I can't imagine it really happened that often to be
honest. Do we also do we also agree the
top three drivers in the era not to win the title are the three
who finished second and never won, which I'd read.
Later. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think. So that's fair, yeah.
Definitely, yeah. Alex, we've got one for you from
our new forum, which you can access by clicking the forum
button at the top of our 1990s btcc.com website.
Radisich Rocks on the forum has then got in touch to ask us.
It's coming back so long. We asked earlier why was the
Ford Mondeo it's so bad in 1996? Yes, actually on it earlier
didn't I? Just basically too many cooks
spoil the broth. Ford had this wonderful idea
that if every if they had different departments doing
different things, then it would make one massive super, super
touring car. And it just didn't work at all
because none of the none of the sort of the departments were
talking to each other and it was just a complete and utter
disaster. Yeah, it was the worst works
touring car of the era. Would you, would you?
I know we you sort of mentioned that earlier, Greg, I think I
think you're spot on. I can't I can't think of another
works touring car that that was that was, I mean, maybe the
master in 92, but I mean. And I guess the 98 Peugeot not
far behind not. Far, but I mean Bradysich got a
fourth in that. True, yeah, and it's got to be
the no yeah, it's it's got to be but look at.
The but you look at the. What's going in?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just.
About to say sports, you know. Lacrosse, lacrosse going into it
as well do. You think the fact they only had
one experienced driver because Steve Robertson was new to the
game, I mean, he was never going to be able to push on
development line and say Harvey. And I felt a bit sorry for
Steve. Robertson Oh, I did too, yeah.
Because there's no, no way no one could ever judge on that.
Talking about being thrown in at the deep end.
Yeah, I mean, he was quick. Obviously.
He was Indy Lights champion, wasn't he?
And and of course went on to a very successful management.
Career. Yes, overseeing Kimi Raikkonen
and others. Yeah, Jenson.
Yeah, yeah, I it was just bizarre.
And it was the same with the 97 Mondeo.
You had one one design team doing the engine, one doing
this, one doing that, and it just didn't work because they
put all the bits together and it didn't make a quick car.
So 97 was that Reynard? And who else was involved in
that project? There were several people
involved, weren't there? Yes, yes, Reynard.
Reynard was one of the parties. Reynard Shubel.
Yeah, Yeah, there was, it was a load of different parties and
it's just, it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work that way.
I. Think it could have been that
because it does copious amounts of budget throw everything at
it, but maybe there was too much going on.
Yeah. And and I think at the end of
98, they finally realized, no, OK, we need to leave this to
somebody because of course, W Surrey didn't actually design
the cars when they ran the Ford contract.
The cars were just handed to W Surrey Racing.
And it's like, there we go. Do what?
Do what you can with it. Whereas when Pro Drive took on
the contract, they were Pro Drive built cars designed and
built. We designed everything didn't.
They Yeah. And, and in that second year of
the programme, then it obviously it worked.
It's magic. But yeah, it was just a case of
far too many people doing different things and coming
together to create a complete and utter shit box.
No other way of wording it. I think also the 99, two
thousand period, it just goes to show what effect it can have.
There's so many other elements, but having some superstar
drivers as they did and it paid off handsomely, didn't it?
Yes, absolutely. Another question for the group
here. We've got an e-mail from Simon
Wrexham. He says, first of all, thanks
for the many hours of great entertainment reminiscing about
the Super Touring era. I rate this podcast right up
there with bring back V 10s to keep up the good work.
Thanks very much and for your really kind comments there.
So this question is, in an alternate universe where 4 wheel
drive isn't banned, how much longer do you think ALDI would
have stuck around and how well do you think they would have
done? My gut says they'd have stuck
around until the end of the 1999 season and that they would have
been titled challenges in 98 and then podium contenders in 1999,
but I'm curious to know the faults of the panel.
Greg, start with you on this one.
Oh, it's a great question. I have to say.
Great question from Sam there. I think if you look back at
history, as Charlie Cox once said, history's not been kind to
the Champions. We never had a repeat champion
all through the Super Touring era, did we?
Many was the only one to win twice and it was not
back-to-back. The rules were often changed,
weren't they, to stop the dominant car from the year
before doing the same thing again.
So if you look at the dominant seasons, BMW had a relatively
dominant 93, tricky 94, Alpha very dominant 94, very difficult
95. Howdy got given a weight penalty
after their success. Renault, it wasn't such
technical changes for them, but the whole format changed, didn't
it? Sprint races, feature races,
other people got stronger. So Audi, it's hard to say, isn't
it? Because I think, I think if 4
wheel drive had stayed in and there was no weight penalty for
97, very likely, although the Renault would have been closer.
The question was about 98 wasn't it?
And how long they would have stayed around for.
I don't think so. I think no.
I think that Nissan was quicker than any Audi would have been at
the time. I I, I think, I think the Nissan
and the Volvo had got better than any anything the Audi could
have done. To go back to what Sam says,
though, I do think I probably would tend to agree with you
that they probably would have stuck around to the end of 99.
But I think their budgets were spiraling out of control and a
lot of people pulled out anyway, didn't they?
Yeah, I, I. I I wonder if they'd have
withdrew at the end of 98 just given that in 99 the Le Mans
project had really started to gather the experimental the
experimental cars. They ran two different cars at
99 Le Mans, the one open cockpit, 1 close cockpit before
settling on the R8 for two found.
So I imagine they'd have probably left at the end of 98
regardless. I think 4 wheel driver been
banned. Yeah four wheel driver had been
banned. Probably just confirmed that
that was the right decision for their marketing.
But I imagine with the Le Mans project being so expensive
they'd have probably done the same anyway.
Yeah, good point. And whether they'd have won
races in 98, it depends who the drivers were.
John Bincliffe wouldn't have won a race. 4 wheel drive.
Muller maybe Beeler around he probably would have won a race.
Yeah, Muller, I mean, he was pretty close to winning.
He he got a pair of seconds so in in the two wheel drive car.
So I'm I'm sure I'm sure that he would have been close if he
didn't win himself. But yeah, I I just think that
the the cars had got past the Audi at that point and then they
weren't even in four wheel drive.
They weren't going to be the competitive beasts that they
were a few years previous. But I also think they would have
known at least a minimum 12 months in advance that that
wouldn't continue, like we said, because of Lemon.
Yeah, yeah, if. You look how big that lemon
programme was for years. Yeah, I think, I think Levi's
spot on. I think they pulled out at 98.
I think they'd have done it anyway, even with four wheel
drive. Yeah, yeah.
Because to be fair. They'd done what they'd needed
to do. They'd won the, won the
championship, so. And obviously they had a weight
penalty to take into consideration, but they even had
some tricky times even in 96, didn't they?
At times. There was one particular run on
the run up to not Killer since Remember and Beat that hadn't
won a race for quite some time. Yeah.
So yeah, you're probably right, Levi.
You're probably, you're probably absolutely right.
They probably would have gone anyway at the end of 98.
But, Adam, one for you here now, Luke Roberts has asked us, what
did you think of the driving standards in the era?
Too rough or just about right? It was always a fine line,
wasn't it? Obviously Alan GAO, you know, he
likes that. He promoted that, that, you
know, a bit of contact never hurt anybody until you pushed it
too far and then you'd be in the back of the Toker bus with the,
you know, with the big, with the bigwigs getting a bollocking.
So but that that was the beauty of the championship.
That's what made it a lovable championship.
Yeah. Compare it to the other, the
biggest form. That's what we've been.
Formula One, you don't get that. And I think that's probably why
some of the drivers struggled as well, to be honest, coming into
it. It was just completely
discipline that we spoke about before.
But yeah, I just think from from a drivers perspective, there's
going to be times when you think it's gone too far.
But as an advanced perspective, it was, it was perfect.
You know, he's always on. You're always on the, you know,
on the line. And I think certain drivers knew
where the line was. Some of them didn't.
But GAO, it's what he wanted deep down here.
And that's what made the championship as good as it was.
Yeah, completely agree. People like spins, people like
crashes. And the good thing is with cars,
especially touring cars, you can have that without people getting
hurt. Yeah, and then it creates the
argument afterwards or you know, someone going into the cockpit,
like we said at Brands with Menu and Rydell.
Read. Read And yeah, they're having to
pop each other and you know that's.
And Gallagher knew that, you know, he knows that's what's
going to happen. So we don't mind a bit of
fisticuffs afterwards. He's not watching a bit of
NASCAR now, is it? They still grab each to the
bottom throat and start fighting each other, don't they?
You know, the back of the pits and stuff and then the, the
mechanics get involved and it all goes off, doesn't it?
So there. Was a massive fight recently,
wasn't there? There was, yeah.
The back of the pits, yeah. Captured by about four different
angles as well. It was.
So it's, you know, it's all part of the spectacle, It's all part
of the circus. It's all part of the show.
So yeah, it's not Bangor Racing. It's a fine line, but it's just
knowing how far to push things before you get punished for it.
I want to go motor racing, not stock car racing.
Thank you in the words. Exactly.
And that's what we spoke about before.
Like it wasn't Andy. That's not his back.
He wasn't that type of driver. That wasn't him.
He was smooth, super fast, one of the greats of all time and it
wasn't his. It's just wasn't his style of
racing, was it? During Cool so he's got in touch
to ask a little nice question about independence here.
So he was always intrigued by the variety of cars run in the
independence category during the Super Touring era and nice
towards the end of the year. There is a preponderance of
Honda Accords in particular. Wondering, was there any reason
for that? Were they regularly cheap to
purchase, it's easier to operate on, get spare parts for?
Or were Honda just more amenable to selling year old cars to
privateers in the 1st place? He also had were there any
particular cars you'd like to see and run the privateer hands
he'd have chosen over the Volvo 850 or the S40?
In answer to the first part of the question, yes, it was
basically independence ran wherever they could get their
hands on and the cheaper the better.
So what you would find is that top, top teams were not very
willing to give away their their good cars.
So that's why you didn't find many Renault Lagunas, You didn't
have any Volvos. Yeah.
You know, it was quite interesting that.
That's almost selling your secrets as well.
Yeah, yeah, Rush. Dad's got his hands on a 97
Lagoon. I mean, that's gold dust for
something Persia would give their right nut to get to get
hands on a Laguna from 97 to see what made it so special, for
example, you know, so and yeah, it was also how willing the
manufacturers were willing to to to sell their cars.
Plus some of them built more cars because they were entered
in more championships. For example, they were far more
Mondeos and Accords because they were raced all over the globe,
whereas Renault weren't they were they?
They were very, very focused on on Britain.
So there weren't as many Lagunas in existence than there were
Mondeos. You know, I'm thinking 1995 Matt
Neil Bourth, his Mondeo from Graf Racing in France.
So that was a French car. They didn't really there wasn't
that much. I mean, look at James Thompson,
you know, he got his hands on some old Peugeot 4/06.
It was 2 years old in 94 and as he said was crap at the time.
It was run in period, never mind two years later.
You know, Hamish Irvine was another one who who got things
on a budget. Jamie Wall with his Cavalier.
That Cavalier would have been a lot cheaper than any other car
in the in the 97 independence category, you know.
But yeah, so there was purely a higher number of some cars than
others. And also manufacturers were more
willing to sell their cars than others because some of them
would ship them out to Australia to race in the following year.
Yeah. So you know, Volvo did a lot of
that. So it would happen that the the
Volvos would be shipped off to Australia to race in the
Australian Super Touring Championship.
You look how different it was as well from that era as well.
You look at the era that I did it in.
We bought a certainly on petrol touring car.
Today we would sort of have a team of people manufacturing
more touring cars. So yes, they'll have them for
their own team, for their own World championship team, British
team, but then they'll also carry on and make a certain
amount of them for people like us as a privateer that want to
buy one. Which kind of how they made
their money back as well, isn't it?
Yeah, It would have been interesting to see like a Volvo
independent or an Alfa Romeo or something like that.
That would be quite cool. Because the other option was
then the only few people tried it was building your own super
tour. You know Dynamics tried it and
failed and. How?
Yeah, it's it's the fact that a team like Dynamics failed to do
it makes you wonder how tough it would have been.
You know Gareth Howell, it's. One, it's one of the things that
you just hemorrhage money and that's why we spoke about this
before about the house situation.
The money. I mean, fair play for having a
go, but the money they then things cost.
If you just buy one, you know, one or two year old car like Lee
Brooks had done and dynamics had done, it costs loads of money
just to run these things. Just try and build your own in
that era when it was as peak as it had ever be.
The design and Oh God. I can see why Dynamics would do
it because they wanted to better themselves rather than just run,
but for someone like Gareth Howell to do it?
Yeah, if you want to want a Henry's money, go and do that.
Go and try and design your own touring car.
Yeah, very very rarely we saw people switch cars mid season
didn't we? I remember in 2000 Mark Lemma
had a Class B Honda Integra and ended up going to an Accord.
Perhaps most famously, 97 Macneill started the year with
the Dynamics Mondeo and then switched from Croft onwards, I
think it was, to a Premiera. That.
Would very rarely happen when I mean dynamics were in a pretty
unique situation I guess budget wise.
Yes. But it didn't often happen.
And like Colin Galley said before you, you couldn't really
pick and choose. Like you said, Alex, you sort of
just had to go with what you could get, didn't you?
Yes, that's right. Yeah.
You know, it's it depended what, how much things were, you know.
So for example, I'm trying to find now a photo of an advert.
Here we go. So in 1997, Ian Hewitt or
Howard, I'm not sure, I never knew how to pronounce that, was
selling his 1993 Vauxhall Cavalier that he ran in the
Total Cup that year to very little success.
So this. Is a four year.
Car 4 year old car with the additional front and rear arrow
and at the end of the season he was selling that for £32,000.
Now Gareth Howell spent £250,000 on a car and it never even raced
on the Mondeo so. The 32 grand car you just
mentioned, What Car was that? So that's the 1993 Vauxhall
Cavalier. And what would that be in Rd.
trim if you just went and bought one sort of standard spec one
from the showroom? Does anyone know?
No, no idea. That doesn't sound too far off.
Well, maybe I guess a few 10 or 12,000 more, but it doesn't seem
too much more, does it, considering it's a.
No, 4 year old super tour at the time, £32,000 was a lot of money
I guess. But yeah, there's your, there's
your, there's your comparison, so.
That is true. Actually that would probably is
about 3 times more now isn't it? So that would probably be 908090
grand in today's money. So there's your comparison of
250 grand. Yeah.
So it was a lot of money regardless, but for someone on a
budget, that would have been an ideal car.
That's someone on a budget. Yeah, yeah.
And finally, Luke Kolk and Andrew Charman, friend of the
podcast of course, have come up with.
He did. He did threaten, he did threaten
to try and tease us with questions, didn't he?
He did. They've come up with a similar
question. If Alfa Romeo hadn't bothered to
come to the UK in 1994, by how many years would the arrival of
wings splitters and the results of much bigger budgets in the
BTCC have been delayed? And would the Super Touring era
have lasted longer as a result? If they hadn't, if they hadn't
turned up, how long before I think?
I think there's someone else. You just would have been someone
else, wouldn't it? I think Renault do it in the
following year with Williams. Yeah, I think it just would have
happened to another team. I think Williams Williams know
to say in 95 and think this is something we can do.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it's as Adam
said, if it wasn't alpha, it was going to be somebody or the.
CWR of the Saline 850. Somebody would have realized,
look, we can do, all we've got to do is build 5000 of these
special editions. We don't even have to do
anything special to them. Just put the front wing on them
and rear wing, whatever you know.
Throw it in the boat. They didn't even fit them to the
road cars, did they? Exactly.
Yeah. So I don't think it's much
later. And does it does it delay the
Super Touring era? No, I don't think so.
I don't think so. I think it would have lived on a
little bit longer had the wings not come in, because the cost
just spiralled out of control, didn't they?
Once one had done it, all the others had to do it.
As soon as the others started doing it, the others had to move
on even further to keep it. So I think it might have gone on
for a little bit longer because that's one of the reasons the
cost went through the roof, isn't it?
All the air and the aerodynamics and the wind tunnels and stuff.
That would cost money, doesn't it?
I'm not saying it would have lasted another 5-10 years, maybe
2-3. It's hard to know, isn't it?
But. Depends how long it would have
taken for someone else to do it, I guess.
Yeah. But in my, like you say in my
thoughts, Williams do it in 95 and then so yeah, maybe you get
2001, maybe I don't know. And all the all these teams were
around aero in some way. Obviously you've got Audi doing
the sports car program, we've got Williams doing Formula One,
you've got TWR doing, they've got sports car background.
Yeah. And Formula One.
So yeah, I don't think it was. Malik Malik Malik Malik had
sports cars. Exactly, Yeah.
Well, that's that's what John said, wasn't he?
Was the era of the turn the Cavalier back into a race
winner? Because it it suddenly changed
that car. If it wasn't the arrow on the 95
Cavalier, who wouldn't have won the the title?
It was the arrow. The arrow brought that back to
the front. So do you think the inherent
sort of sleek nature layout of the Cavalier as a car lended
itself just nicely to the arrow in comparison with some of the?
Maybe I don't know all. All I know is that in 94 that
car wasn't that competitive, was it?
John won a couple of races at Donnington and then suddenly it
took another step forward and John says it's because of the
arrow. They stuck the arrow on it and
they just transformed the car. I.
Think another thing as well to bear in mind with the arrow of
course, is the way the tyres reacted and people were on
different tyres. Well, there were several
different tyre manufacturers involved at that time as well,
very true. So that all had something to do
with it too, without doubt. Yeah, I mean I prefer the aero
looking cars. I don't know about you guys.
Yeah, I prefer the cars with the front and rear wings.
Especially the first couple of years where they're, yeah, still
a little bit boxy, but they have these.
Oh, no, no, no, off the edge. They look nice.
They do look nice. The fact of the matter is that
there was a big difference. Wasn't the breaking distances
become shorter, so passing is more difficult.
I mean, I think it was you, Alex.
You said to me recently that Donnington meeting that opened
the 95 campaign. There was hardly an overtaking
sight and that was not the British touring character.
And they knew it. Everyone was really worried
after that meeting going. Have we ruined it?
Have we ruined the formula? Has this has this turned it into
Formula One? Which is amazing because looking
back at it now, you wouldn't ever think that was the mood
because it's still brilliant coverage.
No, but it was a one of the most processional race meetings
probably through the whole of that period, wasn't it?
Yes, there was literally very, very little happened at all.
When you think of how crash, bang, what up the previous three
seasons had been overall, it was a big shot.
Yeah, suddenly it was. Yeah, like I said, the mood was
a bit sort of like what have we done to touring cars?
Yeah, it almost became a bit like F1 in a touring car layout
or it. Was a it was a bit like 2010 in
F1 when they banned refuelling and they went to the first race
at Bahrain and it was awful and people were like what have we
done? They were calling it Bahrain,
weren't they? But 2010 turned out to be one of
the yes, the F1 seasons. Great season.
And you can put the same for 95. Yeah, it was an absolute puller.
I think 9098, we've always said he's the zenith, haven't we?
But I think, yeah, 92 and 95, three different drivers
contending for the championship, Yeah, to the very end of one of
them and quite close to the end of the other one for three
different manufacturers. Not bad at.
All yeah, 95 was superb, as you say. 9098 for me is the zenith
of Super Touring. Mr. As Mr. Reed would say, just
before we sign off, gentlemen, can I throw one question to all
three of you for a quick fire answer?
What's your highlight been of all the podcasts so far that
you've done? Because I've thoroughly enjoyed
listening to them. I will just say it's been a
pleasure to work with you all. I'm looking forward to more.
If you had to put one highlight right now, whether it's a guest
or a certain moment from the three series so far or the four
series so far as it now is, what would you go for?
Levi, I'll start with you because you've been asking us
the questions on this one. Good question.
Well, that's a good question. I think a.
Question to the question exactly the man asked the question.
Now you now look, he's he's oh, he don't know what to say.
Now it's normally asking the questions.
It's like turning the tables on on Tarrant or Robinson.
Or I can tell you, I can tell you straight away.
Go on then, Jimmy T. Right, Jimmy T.
Yeah, why? I was going to say Gabrielli.
Just because he doesn't do any media at all.
And it took a bit of coaxing. We've been, we've been sort of
flirting with him for a while now.
And, and, and yeah, just it was fantastic.
And the, the reaction to it as well was brilliant.
So yeah, for me the highlights been James Thompson.
And just also to find out, because I did, I don't know
James at all. I didn't know James at all
before. Before the before the recording.
We spent, we spent about 3 hours with him, didn't we?
And he was just an absolute star, just the nicest bloke.
And he's keen to do more, so that's cool too.
Yeah, I think for me and Jimmy T was pretty special because yeah,
that actually doesn't doesn't do anything.
Gabrielli was just that was just incredible to have a a man of,
you know, driver of that world international calibre that
there's one in everything. And then driven more with an F1
and just the what a character as well doing Murray Walker
impressions for us. And.
And all of that. And that was that was kind of
the moment where we're like, well, for me, it's kind of like,
wow, this is like it's Gavin really target you need to money.
We'll look at impressions tomorrow.
Just casually having a glass of wine.
So that was that was pretty special, that moment.
It's hard because they're all good, and I think some people
have been exceptionally good that you probably wouldn't
expect them to be. Yes, yeah, that's that's true
also. I think that's, that's a big
surprise that I've come across where you probably, I think
you've got to play it a bit safe or you don't really know what
you're going to get or you feel like you're going to get a
particular personality. You know, it's going to be, but
you, you don't know them. So it's, you think you're going
to get this particular personality, but actually get
the complete opposite. And they've shocked you and, and
they've become this person that you never thought they were and
that they're really keen and, and, and told you more than they
probably needed to. And so I think they've all been
really good in their own individual ways.
And the great thing is there's still so many BTCC superstars
who are yet to feature on this show, some of whom are already
confirmed and some I'm sure will be confirmed in the near future.
So there's a lot. Still a lot forward, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I'd like to thank Greg for
joining us once again on the show today and for his
contributions for our Series 4. We're looking forward to seeing
you at Brands Hatch at the end of the month for Super Touring
Power two. Our thanks, as ever, also gave
to you guys for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed today's episode, please make sure to
give us a review, five star rating and subscribe to the
podcast feed on your podcast type of choice.
You can also send an e-mail to us to make a comment about
today's episode or podcast in general, or if you have a
question or suggestion for a future episode essentially in
Series 5. In the meantime, we will see you
in the autumn for our next series.
Goodbye.