Stories from Super Touring. Hello and welcome back to
Stories from Super Touring, the podcast where we dive deep into
the golden era of touring car racing one story at a time.
Now, today's episode marks the start of Series 6, and trust me,
we're kicking things off in style.
Our special guest for this first episode of the series is a name
synonymous with excitement, energy, and unforgettable
commentary. It's none other than Charlie
Cox. Charlie, we've been trying to
get you on the show for quite some time now, and we've managed
it finally. Thank you for joining us this
evening. How are you?
G day mate, I'm fine thank you. 8 this morning, of course.
You're on the other side of the world.
It's a bit foggy out there, but it's going to be 32° and sunny
once the mist burns off, so I'm just I'm just getting ready.
Well, thank you for joining us this evening or this morning.
I'm going to do that. One of us was really tired and
I'm over on the other one. The other one is just tired.
You can work it out. Hopefully I get that out of the
system by the end of this evening and they start the
start. Charlie, how did you get
involved in Motorsports? Were you interested in
motorsport as a child? Is it something that came along
later? How did you get into the sport
originally? I would like like a lot of kids
when I got toys as a kid, if it didn't have a wheel on it, I
wasn't interested. You know, that's all
fascinating, dad, but I want a car or I want a toy truck or it
had to have wheels on it. Then I was happy as a soundboy
without that, not a chance. So always loved it.
I come from very humble background, so we didn't have
any money to buy race cars and stuff.
So we used to build our own Billy carts and then we get and
we where we lived there were super steep hills including
Waimea Hill and Billy Cart Hill and we have crashes and fire
each other into the scenery. So I always wanted to do more
couldn't and we worked out how to engineer motor motor engines
into scooters, you know, pump up scooters and we'd make our own
motorbikes. I mean, it's amazing.
I've still got a leg on both sides actually did all of that
stuff all good. Wanted to go racing, couldn't.
So I had to wait until I could get into, I got involved with
lack dashes and hill climbs and things like that where you could
run, run what you're brung and then drive it home again unless
you'd whack it. So I did that work my way
through that and then got into racing in the 80s in Australia
and it was serious production. I didn't I didn't like that
stuff without a roof on it get rained on no good.
So stearic series production stuff.
Mazda rotaries were the thing of the day.
So Savannah rotaries, brilliant cars and and then of course you
have to have Aussie V eights, SO5 litre V eights, right,
sprinting those and then later racing those and along the way
through I I finished up doing 3 bathursts in Australia, which is
about the most exciting thing I've ever done.
They were they were great. That's cool yeah, absolutely
brilliant. So did that the racing was going
well. I was working in media, I'm a
journalist by trade so I was radio guy.
So I was running a a News Radio station in Sydney that was
terrific and I got offered the job to run LBC in London and all
fire. All well and good.
I wasn't that bothered by that, but I was desperately great to
England to go racing because that was the measure of
yourself. It's all very well doing OK at
Oran Park or Amaru Park, places you've never heard of and don't
exist anymore. But you know, to race the
Silverstone, to race at Brands hats, you know, that was the way
forward. That was my dream.
So I took the job to go racing, but I didn't mention that to my
then employers and scraped some money together.
And I'd never been to any of the circuits, but I had a friend out
here who supported me and wanted me to, thought I had something.
So he helped me and I rented a Porsche, an old battered RS73
replica and just did a variety of different races just to learn
the circuits. So if if the criteria was has to
be a track I haven't raced on, which was so exciting and, and
that was brilliant. So, and that's how I got into
it. And that first year in the UK
went really well and I ended up winning stuff.
So that's how I got sponsorship from Ford to to do the Saloon
car Championship. So.
That's right, because you you did two years in the National
Saloon Car Cup with the the Escort Cosworth.
Yeah, yeah. I loved, I loved that
championship, love the love the that was.
Absolutely fantastic. And that championship came on at
a funny time for Touring Cars because it was when Touring Cars
they were trying to go Super Touring.
They just outlawed the RS5 hundreds and all that sort of
stuff. So all the, all the big fire
breathing things had come out of Touring Cars and they were
trying to go to the Touring Car regs, which were, I mean, they
were pretty boring cars, you know, the crash boss, because
they were not exciting things to drive.
And I think people were disappointed with them because
they, they didn't look anything like a Sierra Cosworth with a
dining table on the back window. So they, they, they brought on
and this National Saloon Car Championship became really big
and there were lots of different manufacturers in it and the
organisers, very organisers, the BRDC very wisely decided that
they'd, they'd have lots of two driver races as well.
So that some of the big. So half the time there were at
least three a year where you had to, you had to have a driver.
So I I raced with Grab It and it was Cleland was in it and Steve
Sopa was in it and Flux was in it, all of these different guys
and they'd all be teaming up with whoever was racing in that
championship. And it was absolutely brilliant
because you'd get it, you'd change, you were doing really
well, you'd be in the lead to give your car to grab it and
then they'd all want to go and settle a score they'd had from
two years earlier in your car. So there's grab it and Flux, for
instance, you know, bang it together like cast and it's not
their car, not their car. It was it, it made Minspeed to
your budget, but it was that oh, great fun, they're great fun.
And getting to back then starting out, getting to race
with the sofas as well was very exciting.
And now sort of racing with the top was something you then got
to do in 95 as well when you moved up to the BCCC.
And how was that as a learning curve to go from the saline car
Cup to the the Super Touring cars in the Mondeo?
Vertical. I yeah, I it, it, it was, it was
very exciting because back in the day it was the biggest thing
on the planet. I mean, Murray Walker
commentated on it, for goodness sake.
I mean, my first race at Donington, I'm not, I'm on the
grid and I've qualified alongside Derek Warwick, who the
the November of the year before was racing for footwork Formula
One. I mean it was just and he was in
a works alpha and it was a, it was the big league.
It was, it was really big. I, we won that thing for Ford's
twice in the salons and they very kindly helped me into the
Rouse car from the year before. So I had Paul Radesich's car
and, and the, the grid was just enormous.
It was maximum grid back then. And I think from, from, from
pole to the guy last on the grid was a second or something and it
was just brilliant. It was second and a half.
It was really, really tight and very, very exciting.
But they were, they're really precise cars, but there's a
really different technique to driving those front wheel drive
cars. I remember talking to Andy Rouse
about it and he said, you know, because if you just turn the
wheel, I go straight ahead. So you had to actually sort of
flick it. If you're not a downhill, fine,
but if you're coming up through the top of the Melbourne loop or
something like that or in the red, right, you've actually got
to flick it to get the back to start the move.
So then, yeah, get the energy transfer and I'm trying to do
physics in my head get just getting around every single
quarter. So it was fine.
I really, I really enjoyed it. I, I like driving a lot more in
the wet where that precision wasn't there.
But the, the guys that were really good at that, and I'm not
pretending for a second to be one of them, were the geniuses.
It's a very different thing from driving A5 litre Commodore.
You say about in the wet and and that you weren't pretending to
be one of the good guys in the wet, but you did have that
barnstorming weekend at Brands Hatch where I and I, we've
talked about Murray and I quote the amazing Charlie Cox #19 was
up in 5th and at Paddock. The amazing Charlie Cox #19 has
caught Julian Bailey's Toyota sixth position up to drones.
Fox is. Going through yeah and finished
fifth and at that time was the best result for an independent
driver. So it's not a bad start.
It was a lucky bounce. No, no, no, it was in the wet.
I mean #1 when you've got, when you can only muster the cash for
644 tyres or six tyres, your, your budget's tight.
If you, we didn't have the money for qualifying or anything like
that. And we were running different
tyres. We had Dunlops and all the works
guys had Michelins, but they were look it, it was a great
opportunity and it was starting to rain and I liked, I mean, the
rain takes all the precision out of everything, you know, which
is probably why I, I raced better in the wet than the dry
anyway, because I'm so imprecise.
So it was A and I just rolled the dice and we threw wets, wets
on it and and everybody else or most other people didn't.
A lot of people didn't. So I had wets and and the guys I
was passing, I think we're on slicks in the main.
But it was, yeah, it was a great race.
I like racing in the rain and technique goes out the window.
You've just got to hang on. And there are also good
different lines at Browns Hatch for for the wet that are nothing
to do with the dry. And I was, I was lucky to get my
way through that. Yeah, that was a very exciting,
very exciting race. And always when you're a
privateer, you're always thinking about this will get at
least three more racist sponsorship.
I'm laughing like a foxy. So, so yeah, it was brilliant.
It was brilliant. It was going real really well.
I was, I was enjoying it. But I'll I'll never stop
remarking on the the talent and technique guys that are epic at
driving front wheel drive, which is now the norm of course almost
the norm apart from the beamers and stuff.
It's time for something special. We've got an exclusive
competition for you on this series of stories from Super
Touring, and trust me, you really don't want to miss it.
We're going to be giving away 2 tickets to Super Touring Power 3
at Brands Hatch this June, and if you've never been, let me
tell you it's going to be an absolute thriller.
The sound, the speed, the atmosphere, it's the ultimate
celebration of the golden age of touring car racing.
Now to enter, all you have to do is e-mail the answer to this
question. In which position did Charlie
Cox finish during the first Brands Hatch race of the 1995
British Touring Car Championship season?
e-mail your answers to POD at 1990s btcc.com and a winner will
be announced in our Super Tory Power 3 preview episode closer
to the time. Good luck.
Touching on that point of sort of a big result getting you 3
races, more sponsorship and so on.
I mean what kind of budgets will be talking to run them on day of
that year? Well, back then it, it would be
very 1995 o'clock it's 30 years ago, it was 1/4 of £1,000,000 to
run to run my little team with a truck, which was a worn out Plum
Centre truck that we bought at an option and peeled off all the
Plum Centre stickers off it and wrote Ford on the side.
Yeah, it, it. But that was still a lot of
money. I mean for anybody racing in the
UK outside of a factory team, that was a big lump of cash.
So 1/4 of £1,000,000 those engines, the Cosworth engines,
they needed rebuilding all of the time.
It was, it was proper, but it was a big show and, and fair
Beto, Alan Gow and the guys that ran it, it was attracting
manufacturers, it was attracting big things.
And, and I was lucky I had Ford support, you know, the, the
Thames Ford deal and it were brilliant to me and they really,
really helped me out. And with without them, it
wouldn't have happened. So yeah, I was, I was fortunate.
But it was a lot, a lot of money to to be competitive.
And you, there was no point, you know, doing it on the cheap and
looking foolish because you're getting lapped every race.
That's just no good. So you you had to do it.
Moving on to the weekend after Brands Hatch, which is
remembered probably for very different reasons, Charlie was
Thruxton where you made the headlines for a slightly
different reason. Yeah, that was disappointing.
I mean, I used to be a really big guy, you know, I was about
6. I felt like that.
It just compressed me. It was, it was terrible.
I mean, actually it was funny. I thought I died there for a
minute because it knocked me out.
For those of you who haven't, haven't seen it, I had multiple
roles. I'd have people, there's a
competition to count them. I think it's 7 and I can't
remember. Anyway, I there was a, there was
a brake failure in the cars. I touched the brakes at the end
of the first lap after church. You're tipping tower through
there or whatever it is. 120 doing about 130 miles an hour.
Something along the back straight there at Thruxton and
touch the brakes. Nothing happens except the back
left locks on. No other brakes at all.
So it was a, it was a one wheel handbrake turn at 140 mile an
hour by the time you're going Max speed I think.
And it just turned the car sideways and it went slid off
and, and not unreasonably, there is no gravel trap there because
people aren't supposed to go off there.
It's the straight. So no, no fault of no fault of
thrust. So I turned sideways right
across the grass and then there was a ploughed field about and
it dropped about a foot away from the surface of the grass.
So I've gone driver's door first straight into this and I looked
at her and thought this is going to hurt and bang two wheels off
into it. And then it sent the car.
I don't know, but there are lots of still photos about, you know,
15 feet or something into the air pirouetting in the air and
off it rolls and and I I was knocked me out.
It actually split my helmet open and I ripped the door.
The door fell off the car it was opening.
So I mean every, every, if you watch it in slow MO, every time
the doors opening, my red love is coming out.
Can you see me? I'm here.
I was always, always trying to get attention.
In fact, if I'd actually written Thames on the roof and Ford on
the underside of the car, it would have been brilliant.
Thames Ford, it would have, it would have been epic
advertising. But I didn't have the width for
that. And somebody else suggested I
actually could have had Thames and Ford on the soles of my
boots for when I was scratching off.
Anyway, I was knocked out and I finished up in these bloody Rd
works which were going on outside the circuit because the
the car went down a bank and out through the the circuit and
landed and all these great big piles of dirt.
And I came to, I couldn't see anything out of that eye at all.
And I could just see something out of this one eye, like
looking down a toilet roll tube, which I did a lot when I was 7.
And I was thinking, wow, I was, I'm dead.
No, it looks like the moon. Heaven looks like the moon.
And there was just dirt. And because I'm looking up at
45° into the sun, I was waiting for God, but all I could see was
dirt. And, and it turned out I was in
these Rd works and all I could see was a busted windscreen.
And but I was, I was just trying to be the first guy to get him
Doctor Paul Trafford helicopter, because he, they just got a
helicopter that year doing Med medevacs and I was his first
customer and we've been dear friends ever since.
So it was worth it for that. But it destroyed the car and,
and went once again Ford and Carphone Warehouse and those
guys all chipped in and we needed another 100 grand to
build a new car. But it didn't, it didn't do much
for me. So no, it was never quite the
same again. And I wasn't 6/6 and anymore,
which was disappointing. I lost kilos in hospital.
So yeah, I did. I did a lot.
I did a lot of things wrong to my head, even even more things
than hitherto had been done. So I took me a long time to get
better. So no balance.
You might remember Mika Hakkinen had, he wasn't in the same race.
Mika Hakkinen had a crash I think in Adelaide and suffered
the same injury where basically you drop your inner ear.
It's like it's like dropping a Santa snow globe and all the
fibres in it start floating around and it makes you
constantly dizzy. And it takes can take a couple
of years for all the fibres to settle down.
So it might go into bed very exciting every time you sat
down. But people just assume I'd got
the first round in, but in fact I was dizzy.
So there you go That that, that, that was the end of that.
I did have a go at coming back at the end of the year and, and
we made a wonderful car and that too was an, an interesting
experiment. And the guys from Matt roll
cages came over from Germany. Everybody clubbed in to give us
a hand and we made the the 1st 5 door Mondeo.
But we met because we managed to salvage the old engine it, we
obviously rebuilt it, but it didn't actually fundamentally
wreck it. So that was good and that was
great fun. But I, I wasn't, I was never
quite the same, let's put it that way.
I, you know, it really changed my reflexes and all the rest of
it for a long time and most of the next year, you know, and,
and bouts of dizziness and nausea and all the rest of it.
And I live on a boat when I'm out working in Australia.
And ever since that accident, this is ridiculous.
I grew up on the water but I actually get seasick if I'm not
careful because my balance is just no good.
Jesus, so it still. Effects you to be falling if if
you see me tumble out of the BRD, say clubhouse, you'll know
it's just balance yes. Oh, he's had he's had another
inner ear problem. I see so yeah, that was that was
that was my ears. Give me hell, you know?
Oh, yes, that that was that, that.
Yeah, it was. It was a wonderful time.
And you see good things come from bad things, don't they?
Because there you go. I'm in hospital for some weeks.
And. And Alan Gao, the boss of TOCA
that I knew, was talking to me about, you know, the BBC was
loving touring cars so much. It was such a big deal.
The BBC had Formula One and touring cars and touring cars
was really bigger. I was thinking about going live
with it. And Murray did touring cars on
his own. He'd had.
James Hunt of course. And then by the time I came
along he was doing it with Jonathan Palmer, F1 and they
thought they'd try to do the same.
So give him a sidekick and and I was, I was current if
incoherent. So that's how that's how I got
in it. So you you taught there that,
you know, it really affected you and the back end of 95 didn't
feel the same. And then GAO mentioned about
possibly putting you in the in the comms pot with Murray.
How did that feel? Because Murray, obviously the
absolute legend, as we all know. Yeah.
That must have been quite intimidating.
Murray was mega and it was, the thought of it was intimidating,
but Murray was just the nicest bloke you could ever hope to
meet. So I mean, I got on very well
with him. Just we just had, we had a
really fabulous time. But I don't think Murray had any
enemies. I'm sure he was lovely to
everybody. I wasn't getting special
treatment, but he made it. He made it absolutely marvellous
fun. He's very entertaining.
He had a sense of self deprecation.
So he did when he was, he was starting to be a bit silly about
things and and it was great fun. But Murray was had had his ways.
Murray had his systems. And back in the day, those BTCC
rounds, they were all post produced.
So you'd commentate them as live, but they'd already been
cut up to fit the half hour that the BBC would give them.
And because I know nothing and just want to watch it and have a
good time in front of you. Sounds like doggy because,
because I, I really love I, because I just really loved it.
I, I didn't, I just wanted to watch it in commentary.
So the commentary was easy. I used to do do a lot of radio
stuff, so that was OK. But it was Murray's show and I
was there to provide some, some insight.
So that was great. But Murray was so fastidious.
He would literally go in on these pre records and spend a
whole day, I mean, a day recording every single scene,
half an hour of racing every single scene and script it so he
knew exactly what bit was what. So the commentary was so tight
because it would jump from one thing to the next to the next
knock as Murray Walker was ever going to be stuck for words.
But he knew how precise it had to be.
And then you have a big bit, a big asterisk, Charlie.
And there'd and there'd be all these Charlie gaps.
That's how it was. It was going to happen in his
mind and he said it's really quite simple and I'll tap you
when you when you ought to come in because I didn't have his
script. It was handwritten, the whole
damn thing. And I go, yeah, fine, Murray.
But he gets so pumped, even though he knew what was coming
up. It was so damned exciting.
He'd get so pumped he wouldn't tap me and he'd stand up for the
whole thing. I'm sitting down.
He stands up for the whole broadcast with a lip mic, You
know, just like in the gantry, sort of horrible Huddersfield
rainy football match, you know, just huddled him off we go.
And then he'd get really excited and Charlie comes up and he'd go
whack and hit me on the backs. The, every remark I made starts
with, oh, it was amazing. And I'd leave there with welts
on my back because Murray was so excited.
I'm sure there's a claim there somewhere, anywhere he has.
So he, it was fun. It was incredible to watch.
But he, as we all know, made it what it was.
And I, you know, he made it in, in the UK he made F1 and, and
wider in Australia he made F1 and, and he made touring cars as
well. And to be alongside him was
absolutely brilliant. So yes, it was, it was a treat.
And we stayed friends and we and he would.
Murray also loved motorcycle racing.
So I'd inevitably see him at the British Motorcycle Grand Prix or
the soup bikes. And yeah, we caught up a lot.
And we, yeah. In fact, I had breakfast with
him at A farewell for James Toesland and when he was leaving
the sport, leaving motorcycle racing.
We had breakfast there up in up in Brum not that long ago.
Well, at the time, not long after I'd left Touring Cars.
We've obviously you mentioned the process with doing a lot of
what a lot of the rounds were with the pre recorded
commentary. As we as the BBC moved further
and ramped up their coverage of it, we then started to get the
live races on Grandstand. How different was the process
for preparing for those and then making sure that the coverage
still felt as tight as the pre recorded races?
Yeah, I think that was a challenge.
I mean the the BBC that goes battalion strength things.
So it was, it was very much like the Normandy invasion when the
the BBC turned up. But they did it so
professionally. It was the real deal and the
fact they'd have Helly Telly sometimes and there was a
particular director called Malcolm and he was so pleased
with these gantries he had established that could look
down. So they were like helicopter
shots. I couldn't commentate on the
race because I'd never looked at it from above and I couldn't
help it out. Helly Telly, No Malcolm, I can't
see them. It's just all these little
racing dots. But the the BBC threw a lot at
it. So the main difference was the
amount of effort that went into the pre records and the
interviews and all those sort of things.
That was the real key and and it made a lot of it made a weekend
of it, which was great. It it gave you a lot more
interest. Usually the racing was good
enough that there weren't too many boring bits.
But if there were, I could always ask what he what he
thought, and that would fill it in.
Yeah, enough, enough of me. How do others see me?
No, it was. Yeah.
So yeah, it was. It was always fine.
There weren't long races. There was usually something to
talk about. There was always stuff to be
talking about in the background anyway.
A much more modest task to to the the amount of homework
you've got to do to do an F1 race or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've, we've always thought that
the BBC not got lucky, but the races they did choose to be live
were generally very good. You had the Mansell race at
Donington in 98, you had the Matt Neil first win in 99.
They they normally struck gold with the the races that they did
choose to to televise life. Yeah, yeah, that's the truth.
Because you could get the odd processional race and it's fine,
you know, you know what you're talking about theoretically, so
you know enough stuff to talk about it and go through it all.
But nonetheless, yeah, a processional race is difficult.
But all I don't remember a real stinker.
I remember a live one at at Thruxton that was a belter and
it was and Watty and I ended up sort of fighting after the
microphone because it was, there was so much going on we but we
just both couldn't get a word in edgewise.
It was extraordinary. Yeah, what he remembered, he
remembered that when when he came on the show with us a
couple a couple of series ago about the live one at Thruxton,
where I think it was something to do with Matt Neil and Jason
Plato at the club chicane. And there was a pass going on
and you both wanted to sort of say at the same time and it was
just exciting. And yeah, he said it was
interesting in the in the comms box.
Oh yes, I think that's one of those euphemisms, isn't it?
Oh yeah, I'm more than happy to speak up.
So, yeah, yeah, I think we did have a brawl.
It didn't last. It it didn't last.
We we could have we could have arguments and pre records.
I mean, I I he could have an argument by himself.
No, it was great. It was.
I loved commentating with Watty because he would say what he
thought he'd speak up. You know, he Yeah.
So none of this procrastination. Well, I don't know.
I don't. What do you reckon?
Oracle? And he'd go.
Oh, that's rude boy. Tim Harvey.
He shouldn't have done. No, no, no.
OK. But yeah, he'd have an opinion.
He'd he'd make it really clear. And he did have a, he did have a
motor racing pedigree, as it transpires.
Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So, so that that was good. But those, I thought the live
races were great. They were very lucky that I
don't recall them ever having a stinker of a boring race.
I mean, they were never really boring races, but you can get
one where somebody disappears off into the distance and the
rest of it spreads it out. But the formats were good.
You remember they were sort of multi race formats.
So yes, you know, they weren't, they weren't going to run for
too long. They didn't complicate it with
refuelling and pit stops and all that sort of nonsense was just
basically go till you drop. When ITV took the coverage away
of Formula One from the BBC at the end of 1996, the BTCC became
the premium motorsport package on the BBC and BBC grandstand
and that pushed the prerecorded shows from 30 minutes to 60
minutes. And that gave you guys a lot
more scope to do post race interviews, pre race grid walks,
pre race features interviews, you know, that sort of thing.
And towards the end of the era, those pre race features became
very popular amongst fans, myself included.
How much of an input did you have on those pre race features?
Because they became more and more interesting, shall we say,
as as it went on. The early stages of that when it
was done by the production company BHP, that was they, we'd
talk in the week about it, but they would write it like a
Hollywood script. You know, we did.
We did a faux movie beginnings like the Blair Witch Project
when it was the first night race that snettered it and I'm
crashing around through the the undergrowth in the dark.
What was that? What was I mean, it was all very
high camp stuff, but it was it, it was great fun.
But they would, they would usually have a theme that they
wanted to put together on that and then the Beeb that was doing
the live stuff themselves. And that would be much more of a
programme. You know, when it was a live BBC
One, it would be a programme and they'd line up, you know, lots
of different interviews to go in there as well.
But yeah, you'd get the feedback on it.
But the the show, the shows would always tend to have a
theme, which which was great. And those, yeah, some of those
things we did I remember. But there were periods where it
started at BHP was a production company, then they'd start to do
the longer shows then what he came along and they would
engineer all of those tops. When we had the longer shows,
even if it was, even if it was going to be a prerecord, it's to
be an hour show. So there was time and I'd go up
there, you know, it's usually me that had to do all that stuff
and I'd go and do those shows and all the links and all the
rest of it on the Saturday or across the weekend.
So I'd have to physically be at the race for the weekend, which
I loved anyway. You know, even if we were going
to post produce it where what he wouldn't necessarily have to do
that. So he could we'd just meet up at
the post produce, so we'd see the top usually before we then
did the commentary, if that makes sense.
That was in the in the longer form, which you've reminded me
of the longer form post produced bits, which was which was good.
When it was full live, the BBC would do it themselves come
battalion strength, do the whole shooting match.
And it was much more ABBC programme, you know, the way
they would do it. And you had look Steve Ryder.
Then at another point after that it went to a production company.
Again, I think when the BBC was running out of budget, it was it
was done by another independent. But whatever live ones were done
were all, as I recall, were always the BBC because they had
the tech, the top, the tops of the shows were great fun.
One of my favourites. We would we did a it was when it
was the fabulous year when you had Rydell and Menu and Reedy
and they were all in Fords and we'd all come up to the last
round of it and all were in with a shot of winning a
championship. So we did the thing as
University Challenge Challenge. Yes, so so and we I'm I'm I'm
sitting there as the quiz mask asking a question.
Anthony Reid, You know, how many points do you need to read
London right now? Stop and that and bless them.
These guys were pretty big stars back in the day Menu, you know,
right out crikey, they were all they were all big deals and they
still gave it the time and did it and enjoyed it, you know,
modifying them. They were up for it and it was
funny. Yeah, you did.
You do get the sense in that one that they're not just there, sat
there thinking, God, I've got to do this, Mediff.
And they're all actually genuinely finding it quite a
funny top, aren't they, at the start of the show?
Yeah, yeah, because you didn't tell them too much.
You just said like trust will be got.
We just got this. Just run with me.
I know this sounds silly, but here in in the UK, we've got
this show called University Challenge began.
It just adds it. But you'll like it.
It'll be funny. And, and the props were all done
and the, the hold up the scorecards and the fake
applause. We had canned laughter and
canned applause. And it was produced absolutely
brilliantly. There was a guy called Lawrence
Foster who was the genius behind all of this stuff at BHP.
He was a, you remember him? He was an auto sport guy.
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. He I haven't seen loser for many
years, but he was a legend and he came up with all these zany
ideas. You won't believe you're going
to be Jeremy Paxman this week. Oh, good.
OK, Craig, keep taking. So anyway, these sort of things
were always, they were always a great treat.
They were really good fun. You also got to drive quite a
few of the cars as part of the coverage as well.
Was that quite exciting, sort of getting behind the wheel of the
Nissan or whatever it was that week to have a go in and see
what that felt like and convey that to the viewer?
Yeah, it was brilliant. One of the one of the best fun
ones was doing it with James Thompson in in the Hondas and it
was a piece. It was one of the big BBC ones
and the BBC, as you know, does fantastic production.
They think it through like get the resource.
So we have the track to ourselves at Donington and we
were going through it and we were connected to each other on
mics and then we had the directors in the cans and all
the rest of it. But it was the show how you
would how you affect and overtake, where's a good spot to
overtake? What happens if you're on the
wrong side? And that was great.
That was fantastic fun. And and James decided it was a
good, good player to basically do this at qualifying speed.
So we're so I was still, I was still racing cars.
That was all right. But it was really brisk, you
know, and we're side by side. You're almost banging mirrors
and I'm thinking I don't know who's who's underwriting this.
You know, if I take if I take you off and launch both the
cars, will the beep pick it up all Anyway, we it was brilliant
fun, really exciting because you were with a with a wonderful
race driver who you're in really close proximity with just
flogging around the track that you had to yourself.
So that was that was great fun. I tell this against myself, The
worst part about this, it was a guy brought a wotty unbridled
delight because they got me to drive the one of the, I think it
was out of our menus, Mondeo at on at the first night race.
What's it look like in the night?
Charlie's going to do us a couple of laps.
Well, of course, the temperature, the track tempos
will be about 5°. It's Dewey as buggery.
I can't see where I'm going anyway.
And I spun it. There's no big deal in anything.
I just spun it down at the, I think at the bom hole.
And the, the joy that gave John Watson was just almost too much
to bear for me. But yeah, yeah.
But it was, it was. Yeah.
That was very exciting. But I've got to tell you, and I
still haven't worked this out, the most undrivable car I ever
drove was Ricard Rydell's Volvo. Now it's the only race car I've
never been able to. You couldn't drive it in a
straight line. It was great round corners you'd
absolutely get it felt like it was it had about 45° of neg and
so much cast of the wheels are actually proud of the front
bumper. It was just so when you were
trying to go down the straight, you had to sort of tuck your
elbows in like that because if you're flinched, you started to
get the tank slapper. It was terrifying.
And that was when I don't know if you remember this, but it was
in the pre show and the very lovely Steve riders there in the
pit lane and I pull in because he's been interviewing me on the
way outgoing. I pull back in and he just does
this, takes it upon himself. And he said because I they put a
second seat in the car and I'd taken him around and he says, so
how was that Sally? What what did you think?
I said that was brilliant. Mind if I ever go?
I'm, I'm just a bitch in the commentary box.
I don't have AI, don't have a view.
And I don't know if you've asked Mr Volvo, but yeah, knock
yourself out. So I get, he gets in the
driver's seat, I'm in the passenger seat and we go as far
as clearways and I, and that was it.
We, we got through, we got through through, we went through
the bottom bend and then we're heading for clearways.
And I'm thinking it was the short circuit.
I'm thinking I'd really be in a lower gear now.
I really, I'm much slower gear now.
And you know, see that pedal to the left, I'd be thinking it was
so, so we, we go into clear ways.
We've got a fair lick of speed on and I think we're in 5th and
we didn't. So we changed no gears and we,
we put it in the sand and my good God.
And I don't know how long it took to get out.
It was. And somehow by, by by proximity,
it became my fault. But I was just anyway, yeah.
I'm afraid to say he did blame you when we mentioned it to him.
It was completely his fault. It's not like a learner driver
car where I've got a second, you know, he had, he had the round
thing, he had the sticky thing. And I'm, you know, I'd, yeah, or
if it was me, I'd be in say third, second maybe, you know,
5th, 5th, 5th with really tall, not a lot of Revs.
So we've actually got no talk either.
So it was, yes, it was a moment. It was a moment.
As you see, Murray left the the the comms at the end of 97 and
you were partnered up with Watty for, for, for three or four
years then. And you, for me personally, you
two were just the dream ticket. You, you, you bounced off each
other perfectly. As you say, Watty was famous for
his, you know his scolding 1 liners, the tellings off when?
Rude boy Tim Harvey sticks in my mind.
Yes, yeah, yeah, He brought that one up himself.
He remembered that one. And.
Another one, Jason Plato, it was often one that got told off by
him a lot as well, but it bounced off With your what I
would say you're more light hearted 1 liners which are so
memorable to this day. Is is that was that planned or
is that something that just naturally happened?
No, no, he's naturally disapproving and I'm naturally
fun. No, no, I mean, they, they have,
they have notional roles and you know, so someone's going to be
the lead commentator, someone's going to be the expert.
That's, that's the, the natural choreography of, of that sort of
commentating. Yeah, and and who's going to be
the expert? A guy that won the an F1 race,
Silverstone or me. So, so I, what he was, was, was
great at that and he and his, I, his judgements were good and he
would make the judgements. That's the key, you know, not a
knitting competition. That's really bad.
What happened, you know, just say something about it.
So that's good. For me.
It was just about the spectacle. It's always been about the
spectacle. I had the incredible good
fortune to just be getting to go and watch a motor race running
off at the mouth, which I'm wanting to do all the time.
But I was getting paid for it. So I don't think I'd have been
saying much different if I was hanging over the fence of turn
One at Donington watching him. You know, it's just what and
it's what you see, you know, the, the silly one liners, you
know, I don't have a script. You just see that you know, I
remember I thought I think it was thrusting and it was pouring
with rain and everyone's slipping and slightly and I just
said he's got about as much grip as a dog online.
Yes, we're going through noble corner.
We've got what's in the green Peugeot on the left now on the
right Hoy on the left and looked as though what's might have
tagged boy, I'm not sure round they both go in the pirouette.
This is so slippery. I've got about as much grit as a
dog on lino these two and they've just slipped straight up
into the wilderness because you can see that, can't you?
It's, it's, you know what, everyone's seen a dog trying to
run on Lino and it doesn't work. And, and all lots of those,
those, those, the vision just provides itself.
I, I remember that if they were racing in a monsoon at Brands
Hatch and they, and it was AI think it was a live race and
they cut to James Thompson's car and they had a camera on the
front of a car and all you could see was just flood water.
And I just said Periscope because that's what it looked,
but it's what it looked like. You know, you can't think.
I'll think of saying that if that presents itself.
It's just, it's things that you know, things that are
descriptive, you know, we're we're you know, it's, it's it's
just how you see it and it and it's fun.
The point, the point of it was I was just getting paid to have
fun watching ATV show. I'd watch anyway.
Yeah, except I got to talk about it too.
I loved it like you guys love it.
It's just it was as much fun as you could have with your clothes
on. There we go.
What were some of your favourite races that you covered in that
period? I think sort of the one that for
a lot of people seems to be the popular choice of favourite race
from that era is Donnington 98 with Mansell.
Did you have any favourites that you covered from that period?
Yeah, the, the, the Donnington race was pretty extraordinary.
I mean, you, if you ever had any doubts about about Maxwell, you,
you wouldn't after that. He was, he'd never go at
anything, you know, there, there he was with a fantastic
reputation. He'd put it all on the line and
had to go. And did you know he did well, it
was just the most extraordinary race.
And once again, I think as I recall, the the conditions
weren't that weren't that favourable.
So it sort of mixed it up a lot more, you know, and it was
wasn't about front wheel ability because an F1 car is going to be
about as far away a mansalier. An F1 car has got to be about as
far away from that as you can get.
But it was just about car control in rubbish conditions.
And it was a fairy tale. You'd almost swear that they had
a three litre engine in there that Ford had cooked it never
unturned there. It what he just drove
brilliantly. You know, it was just the most
extraordinary happy story, very exciting.
And then and then you know, Mansell having a huge shunt as
as well down the old hairpin. You remember that?
I think that was a couple of years ago.
I mean, he had a couple of goes at it.
But yeah, that the, the Mansell Donington was absolutely
extraordinary. That last race for the the Ford
guys, the last the last round where it came right down to the
wire for Muller and Plato in those Vauxhalls at Brown's hat.
Even though that was sort of past the the zenith of the Super
tearing era, that was a pretty potent, powerful race.
You know, with Muller's car pulled off coming out of padding
hills, you know, in in flames parked off by the side of the
road. That was horrendous, amazing.
But, you know, and someone had to lose it.
But it, it was just a shocking way to lose it.
Oh, yeah. He would have won anyway.
But yeah, those those races where, I mean, it was just the
amount of action, the amount of sustained action, you know,
over, over so many years. I mean, Cleland was a master.
And I mean, all, all John Cleland needed was to turn up
with a set of slicks and a box of wing mirrors, you know, and
he was his, his weekend was made-up.
And I remember watching him going up the hill at *** Broom.
And I think he'd had about, you know, like so many wing mirrors,
so little time. He's had somebody, he's had
another one, he's had another. And it was because they were
just so close and they didn't give a shit.
And it was wonderful. It was just wonderful.
And I don't some sometimes it was too aggressive but not too
no, but it it's the. The the style of the racing,
it's sort of it that's close racing that sometimes maybe went
over the edge. That's what attracted people to
it anyway, you know, for, for, for lots of people that close
racing that, you know, wing mirrors flying everywhere, maybe
the odd bumper flying off. I remember Jason Plato's bumper
was pretty much detached from the first corner at every race
in in 1999. That's, that's what attracted
people to the racing. It was, it was, it was
brilliant. It was just super.
And if Jason's bumble wasn't off, he'd had.
Someone else's off SO, but yeah, but no one had scripts for this
stuff, did they? So I couldn't because they
didn't, they didn't know what was going to happen.
It was just play it as you find it and it was extraordinary.
And the crowds absolutely loved it at the track, the viewing
audience that the environment was just marvellous.
Following the BBC losing. The rights to the Touring Cars
at the end of 2001, you then transitioned into their coverage
of bikes. How was that working with, with
Steve Parrish working on that going into the 20 tens as well?
I think you you went on with that.
Was that, was that quite a nice transition from kind of similar
action at times? Yeah, at the time it was.
It was hilarious working with Steve Parrish, with Steph.
I could I could spend an hour giving you several anecdotes and
the number of times we finished up helping police with their
enquiries, usually to do with with motoring offences, I hasten
to add. I mean the BBC was quite foolish
and for many races they'd give us a rent a car each.
It took them ages to work out. The only way to stop us smashing
rental cars was to put us in the same car.
There were a lot of hire car casualties and by the time the
BBC had worked out that the only way to stop us doing bammel
damage was to put us in the same car, Stavros had worked out that
there were still ways around that.
So we were in the Lousots Ring very early on doing world super
bikes and we're coming back from the circuit and we worked out a
rally circuit, a rally stage. But it wasn't a Renault Megane
Steve, it was a Renault Scenic, you know, like a people
movement. So it's not valley bread, it's
family bread, you know. So anyway, we have these
everyday. We're doing a section time,
Section 3 of this take over the jump da da da da da and the car
was absolutely filthy last night after the last race.
He come, he's at the wheel. He comes sliding into town and
and hits a curb and broke a piece off the front wheel that
obviously wasn't metal anyway, snapped a piece of the front
faux magnesium wheel off. So on the way back to the track
the next day where we had to pick up Colin Edwards because
we're giving him a ride to the app, he said, I know we'll just
cover it with a bit more mud. We'll do the rally circuit
backwards no problem. And he goes the rally circuit
backwards, completely forgetting that mid circuit there's a drop
of about a foot and 1/2 into a big muddy puddle.
It's fine. When you're going with it, you
go against it and you're airborne.
So off he goes. It's the muddy puddle.
We've got air, serious air, you know, scenic, not on the gown.
We land instantly, the front suspension's gone like that.
And he goes, Oh, my baby's wounded down way.
And I and I got out and it's got about 15° of neg and I, it's
leaking oil. And I said maybe we're going to
shut it down. It's you've split the sump.
He said we're almost at the circuit.
Don't worry. I used to race 2 strokes.
I'll catch her before she nips. And he didn't catch her before
he nipped it nipped on the way into the flowers.
It's ring. And I tell you, we spent some
time filling out some forms after that.
Yeah. So just coming back to super.
Touring then Charlie. So it's clear from a lot of what
you've said that you really valued the people that you
weren't with ever. That was Murray and Watty, the
production team and also the the drivers of the time who was you
said really were superstars. Who were your favourites?
To work with if he. Was the the drivers that if you
were told and work and you're working with this person this
weekend, you'd be really excited and know you'd get a lot of good
stuff out of them? I could get thrown out of the
BRDC if I get this wrong. That's very, very difficult.
Oh, Gee. I mean, they, they were all I I
didn't have any trouble with any of them.
I mean, people like Derek Warwick were great because Derek
had done it all. So by the time he came to to
doing touring cars, and that was when I was still driving, you
know, he was, yeah, he was wonderfully.
I can't drive these bloody things.
It's ridiculous. They just go straight.
I mean, Derek had all the runs on the board and was was
absolutely able to say whether he liked what he was doing or
not in terms of the guys that that were, that were good to
interview. I mean, Jason Plato could talk
in under 3 feet of wet cement. You know, Jason's a great chat.
Always was John Cleland at but was epic.
You know, JC is, is a friend. He's funny.
He's really, really clever. His his win in that cavalier was
just, it was just everything he deserved after being taken out a
few years earlier at at Silverstein.
But JC was funny. I mean, one of the best things I
ever did was we near the end we managed to to perfect or the
BBC, not we the BBC managed to perfect putting the intercom to
the cars between me and and the commentators and the cars live,
which was quite revolutionary back in the day.
And I don't know how he was concentrating on the race.
The one liners were just flying. It was almost like a shootout
between. Hang on, that's my line.
Yeah, he was, he was absolutely he he was, he was very good.
He was very good to work with. Yvonne Muller was a very nice
fellow. Richard Rydell was was was a
good man. Peter Cox was was was a great
fellow. James Thompson was was brilliant
fun to work with. I'm going to forget people
because they're not springing to mind and that's really, really
terrible. LM menu was, was, was very
interesting because he's, they're all nice guys, but I
mean, he, he had that wonderful sort of insouciance about and,
and, and slight superiority about the whole thing in the
nicest possible way. Well, I'm here, but I'm also a
banker. So, you know, I go back to
Switzerland, make money, I drive.
I mean, his English is much better than that, of course, but
you know what I mean. So they were they were properly
colourful characters. And there were guys that came
and went, you know, big name Simone Queenie, all of those
guys, you know, and and good old David Leslie, God rest his soul,
you know, they were they, but what amazing blade pairing.
So you've got Laurent Aiello and David Leslie, you know, Yes.
Yeah. Steak, steak and eggs at one end
and and some fancy foreign guy at the other hand.
It was yeah, and, and and they won't but, but you know, it was
just, it was a marvellous thing that they were very clever the
way they packaged up the people. The people were very good at
doing what they did. They were media friendly.
But I honestly think that the real key to this was that
everybody that was doing it, you have good days, bad days, but
everybody in that paddock behind those steering wheels, they were
having a good time. The actual vibe there was good.
And you can't, you can't pay Alan GAO and the Toker people
enough credit for what they built.
You think what a ragtag, scrappy old thing it was back in the
late 80s in, in terms of a shuttle.
I mean, great cars, great racing.
They're going to be you know, but it was Gee whizzes, you
know, it really put it on the map and it was the IT was a big
call. What they did one one thing I've
I would like. To, to ask before, I don't know.
I'm aware we've taken a lot of your time already.
I don't look, I'm just having a great.
Time. I don't know what's going in
your shadow. I just have.
I'm just shooting the breeze. I really enjoyed what?
You might notice things. Come up since we started
talking, it has, yes. We have we.
We talked about your time in Murray early on and and you were
talking about how it how it was working with him.
What did you learn from him to move forward in that you use
later on in your commentary and broadcasting career?
Were there anything in particular that you just that
you picked up from him? What did I learn from Murray?
That it was fun. Murray had a great lot of fun
with it. Murray loved it.
It wasn't just a job. Murray loved it.
Murray was very methodical and as I said to you with the
Touring cars, when it was pre recorded, post produced, he
would be really methodical and scientific about it.
I've got to say, half of that science went out the window when
we got going because the races were so good and we forget blow
by blow by blow. So it would help him keep track
of it because all of those things were time coded.
But I didn't have to worry about any of that.
I'd just shout till he hit me to stop again.
So I hit the start, I hit the stop.
Yeah, the first thing I. Learnt from Murray.
I got very excited when I think it was Audi came out with no was
it was I think it was I think it was Honda came out with those
great big wheel covers that were supposed to be aerodynamically
efficient. Remember, yeah, yeah.
Oh, Murray cameo. Yes, they.
Came out with these arrow. Discs Murray, look at that.
That's absolutely fantastic. And what genius this is.
They're even getting into the science of Arrow.
And he said yeah, so an auto union in 1928.
What are you getting so excited? So I, I quickly, I quickly
learned that Murray knew a lot more than me and always would.
Talking again of of. Of comms and stuff and we've
we've already touched on your one liners and stuff I wonder if
we'd all like to share some of our favourites because I know I
would because I wrote an article about your one liners I'll send
you a copy I'll send it to you Charlie beforehand I.
Mean. You see this stuff?
I'm not an actor. So you can't.
My favourite has to be. And it's one that's fondly
remembered. It's netted at the night race
where you said Jason radioed into to Renault and said, tell
JCB, who was his teammate at the time, Boolean to hold off
Mueller, who was behind him. And and you turn around and said
that's like trying to hold off the Terminator with a water
pistol. It's got to be.
And it's one of my favourite. Lines in any commentary, in any
sport, it's just brilliant. It is quite funny.
I don't remember. Saying that, but you see, once
again, I mean, oh, that's just how you say it because you're
just watching it. We didn't know he was going to
say, but those that night race was ridiculous.
I mean, in, in terms of its difficulty for the drivers.
I mean, they're, you know, Plato's there, He's blind as a
welder's dog. You can't, you know, you might
have you might have headlights, but somebody's headlights are
there and there and there. And then everyone looked like
brilliant idea of taping up their rear windows to stop the
lights. They just mean they couldn't see
who was passing them anyway. They couldn't see him in their
wing mirrors because they'd already lost them in turn 1.
So it's just these lunatic projectiles going around in the
dark, driving like rail, you know?
Oh, that'll be that's that's that's it means turn left.
Oh, no, that's great. Yeah.
So, oh, someone's helping me accelerate.
So I thought that, I thought that was an epic experiment.
But yes, it was. It was brilliant.
That race, Yeah. Levi.
Levi, I don't know if you, you or Matt have got any.
Well, I was going to say that race.
I think was so chaos it because I think probably my favourite
one liner of yours, Charlie was when Ivan Miller is out of
control, cuts across the track and then T Bones and unfortunate
James Thompson minded his own business to it.
You just exclaim. It's a goal.
But it is how they can sometimes look too, isn't it?
I mean, you know, I mean that honestly, that looks like the
red in the corner pocket in it's gone and snethered him was
always. I mean, you know, if ever there
was a place to have in those days, if they were, there was a
place to create colour and movement.
Shall we say it was a certain like that?
Yeah. Corum getting faster and faster
and faster and tighter and tighter and tighter and off
camber towards grass, towards a tyre wall with a head with a
right left at the end of it. I mean, if that's not create,
that's like a really bad intestinal tract.
You know, there's a blockage there and it's always going to
end in tears. And it did.
You know that little stop go corner was just ridiculous.
That was fantastic. Fantastically ridiculous, I
think. Amazingly.
Our our three favourite lines all come from the same lap, the
Terminator at the start of it, but it's a goal part way through
and then you can't kill that Vauxhall with a stick.
Yeah, I I genuinely can't remember them, but it sounds
like the sort of thing I'd say. My mother used to talk like
that. My mother was just incredibly
funny, clever talk, you know, she's a virus.
Talk of a nonsense. But it was always funny.
I mean, I was. It was just how you see it.
Yeah. Couldn't kill him with a stick.
Yeah, that right. Yes, that's, that is, that is an
expression of mine. It's a goal.
I've got to start. I've got to watch some of these.
I've got them all. They're all on.
They're all on tapes. You know, they used to send you
one after every round. And I, I never watched them, you
know, because I did, I didn't want, because it was so much
fun, because it was really genuine.
I never wanted it to be contrived, whether I was good or
whether I know where the hell out of anybody.
And I'm sure there are legions of people in the, in the latter
category, but I didn't want to listen to anything we'd done and
start to learn anything that we'd done.
And then, you know, develop a style or a, or a patter or or
whatever, you just go to a race, watch it.
That's funny, that's great. That was rubbish.
That wasn't fair, wasn't what he knows wasn't.
That's good. Much, much more, much more
natural. And I, and I, and I, I can't
overstate how much fun it was. And I got paid less their heart
and I got free, free parking and a free ticket.
So, you know, you'd have to be happy with that.
It was great. And we?
Thoroughly enjoyed listening to your work as well.
So, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to blow smoke up your
ass. I genuinely was.
And the other boys will tell you I was.
I was the biggest fan of your work.
So it's a real privilege to be here to, to be with you tonight.
You know, it's really, really, really exciting though.
I can't it all, it all runs. Together.
I mean, I just kept thinking about the racing, like when you
put me on the spot and said who do I think was a great?
I remember the ones I liked and the ones I didn't like as as
drivers I didn't. There wasn't any I didn't like.
But I remember the ones I knew more.
But there'll be a lesion of people I've bloody forgotten,
you know. You remember the year of Frank
Beeler and the the guy who'd been in the National Saloon Car
Championship. Binkliff.
John Binkliff. Yeah, yeah, he was a.
Good player, out of luck. It's just it never really
happened for him. He really, right?
It happened for him because he got to go.
Yeah. I mean, I remember.
I remember saying things that that it's a preposterous thing
to say, but it made me laugh anyway.
And it was, I think, I think it was John Bintcliff actually,
who'd gone off. He'd been punted off before at
Donington at the top of the hill when they're really ripping
before they go down the Dipper there and he was just flying
across the grass and all you could see was the car flying
across the grass because the BBC were doing it live.
So it was a tight shot. And I just said it looks like a
scene from the Sound of Music. You know the hills are alive
with the sound of out because you could just say this lovely
out, big cliffs off big cliffs gone straight off and ploughing
through the fit. Look at him fly cutting the
daisies. It looks like a scene out of The
Sound of Music. That that though you mention
that that. Reminds me of of of a like you
say. A funny moment that I remember
Menu going off at at Alton and he nearly ended up in the lake
in the Mondeo and John Cleland came round on the on the next
lap under the safety car and said on over the radio which the
BBC broadcasts. I hope he's brought his fucking
trunks, obviously. Obviously bleeped.
Out the the the expletive, but it's stuff like that that that
just indeed itself to so many people.
But it's all. All of that stuff is.
Just what it looks like and it's, I don't know, it's like a
I'm, I'm lucky to have a cartoonist mind.
So I just, I just see, I just see them like that.
And it was, but it was, it was, it was, it was seriously funny.
And I never mentioned Patrick Watts, who was a psychopath,
that Patrick was brilliant in any race because he was, he was
the grenade you rolled under the table.
You know, he was just yeah, yeah.
You're alongside Patrick Watts. Light green touch paper retire,
safe distance. I I raced, Patrick and I raced
together. He's a mate.
And we raced together at, in a saline Mustang at at a European
Le Mans race at Spa. I knew I didn't need to bring my
overalls. I don't know why once we toss
the coin and he got the start the race, I should have just
gone back to the transporter and got James there.
He got to the bus stop on lap one before before he T boned a
Porsche and I saw him coming down the pit lane, down the hill
there and I thought I can see all four wheels and he's coming
towards me. That's not right.
You shouldn't see four wheels in the straight line.
So that was the end of that. He was, yeah.
Patrick was really, really enthusiastic and didn't and
didn't have a. He needed a bigger fuse.
He, he was great fun. He is great fun.
And he's still. Exactly the same Oh yeah, we, we
had a lot we. Had a lot of fun together, but
because, I mean, this was but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There were. I had, I had good.
I never had a bad experience with anyone.
Cleland was was a real a favourite of mine.
Yeah, yeah. No, he's a good act.
Yeah, he's nuts. In in a good way.
It's been an unbridled joy talking to you boys I've had.
I hope you get something out of it, but it's and I hope I
haven't defamed anybody, but it was just bloody funny the whole
thing. Yeah.
Just got one more for. You Charlie, obviously you raced
in 95 and commentated in 97 where they were set distance
races. From 98 onwards we had the
Sprint, just an out and out charge and we had the feature
race obviously broken up with the pit stops.
What did, what did you think about the introduction of the
pit stops? Did did you like them?
Did you like the variety of two different types or did you have
a a preference over the for the Sprint or the feature?
I'm I'm a simple soul. I.
Just like man waves flag, off you go, man waves another flag,
it's over. That was a lot easier for me
once you had the science of pit stops and who stuck hidden and
who hadn't that that put an unreasonable burden on my
limited mental faculties. I found a half mortality.
I mean, look, it shuffled it up and it gave a great opportunity
for people to make mistakes in pit stops.
But the trouble with pit stop races, as we all know, is you
all then have a period, although the window is narrow.
So the period wasn't too big, but you always have a period
where the real the real leader is in P6 or something like that.
You always kind of wait for your pit stop to rinse through before
you get back to where you're going.
The flip side is you got a lot more names to have let a lap
across a year. And that that was a good thing.
And that also brought that also brought those, the fabulous
mechanical guys into the picture a lot more.
Yeah, because the guys, the guys in the garage, mate, they're
the, they're rock stars. You know, the guys and girls in
the garage is a rock star. And that was a good fun part of
it. Them drilling them, getting it
right. That was really good.
That brought a whole new element to it.
But but a short, fast Sprint race, fast and dirty.
Nothing better with an apology never happened to me before.
I'm so terribly sorry. Cigarette and I to be honest
with you, the the world super bikes was actually the most fun
motorcycle racing. I did that in the pretty supers
because I was lucky. I got there when it was bike
column bike. I don't know if you know about
the bikes, but it was Colin Bayless and Troy, Troy Bayless
and Colin Edwards, you know, and Bayless and Edwards and the
freaking races they had that was just out of this.
But yeah. And the I, I, I mean, the
British super bikes was fun. You know, that was in the shaky
burns, yes, Don Reynolds era. You know they.
Were they were all really good eras that that it was it was
great racing but the by by a league it was super touring was
the best fun yeah and. And and for me as a driver.
Doing Bathurst was the best fun just to have done.
Yeah, it's all good. No, I can't.
I can't do it anymore. I can't hold my stomach in and
I'm too tight to buy a new race suit so fuck it.
I just had a little. Flashback.
Super Touring drivers, but not the cars.
Of course. You came back to do the
commentary for the Masters race in 2004.
Oh yeah, I did. And that was.
Great. I really enjoyed that.
That was the I was just talking shit again.
The commentary just went in. Perfectly with it was a race of
like we all want to win this and but also the shit would damage
the cars and all of that sort of stuff and the commentary fitted
in perfectly with it. Thanks and I.
And I, as I do recall, as I do recall, Matt, I think that that
Patrick Watts didn't leave anybody to let anyone down.
And I just I'm sure in the first one, it was at Donington, he
fucking he took to the field. I think he missed the old
hairpin entirely and re entered the field and fucking it was, it
was T-bone somebody into the corner pocket.
I can't remember who it was. And it was just it had to
happen, didn't it? It was.
Everybody was true to form. Yeah, it was.
It was, it was fun. I think I did that with the
lovely Ben Edwards, didn't I? Yeah, I think it was.
Yeah. Yes, Yeah, Yeah.
Very able fellow. So I'd like to thank Charlie for
for coming on today's show and telling us all these stories
from from back in the day in the Super Touring era touring car
racing. Charlie, thank you so much.
You've been a much requested guest from our listeners and
it's great that you've been able to come on and and share your
stories. So thanks very much my pleasure
mate. Thanks for.
Taking me back there, I've still got a smile on my face.
It was such a good thing to remember.
Meanwhile, join us next. Week where we'll look back at
the first ever live BTCC race held on BBC Grandstand back at
Brands Hatch in 1997. Until then, we'll see you next
week. Goodbye.