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Stories from Super Touring. 
Welcome to another episode of 

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Stories from Super Touring. 
This week we're looking back at 

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the major rivalries of the era, 
with myself, Al, Adam and 

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producer Matt looking back and 
discussing at the rivalries of 

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the era and all of the major 
talking points from Cleland and 

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Sofa to Ride Dylan Reed. 
The 90s had its fair share of 

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rivalries, but we'll be also 
looking at some of the smallest 

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spats as well and we'll also be 
looking at the times that team 

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mates didn't always see eye to 
eye. 

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So, gentlemen, how are we all 
this evening? 

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Very good. 
Thank you mate. 

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Very well, yeah. 
Not bad at all. 

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Thank you. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Looking forward to probably 
looking at a few fallouts whilst

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falling out, so yeah. 
More fun in that with each 

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other. 
Yeah, well, I know that Nigel 

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Mansell was prone to a rivalry, 
so I'm sure that will will come 

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up. 
You've not even asked the first 

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question. 
You've started already. 

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My yellow card is at hand. 
Don't. 

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You worry about that? 
I am looking forward to 

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discussing a bit of moments 
also. 

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Yeah, that'll be good. 
Glad I'm not having it. 

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I'm not having it. 
You can't talk about noise like 

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that, our Nige. 
Producer Matt, I think you might

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have to start refereeing in a 
bit. 

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Well, I was, I was just going to
throw in an awful pun about how 

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they had a bit of a needle 
between them, but. 

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Don't worry, it'll only start a 
TIFF. 

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Get it out of your systems. 
That's get it out of your 

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systems, Matt. 
I need you on my side because 

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I've got them. 
Two are always against me when 

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it comes to our Nige. 
Yeah, Adam's feeling like he's 

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got a bit of a bulls on him at 
the moment. 

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Oh yeah, completely all we 
should do when you start 

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mentioning no red 5. 
So anyway, gentlemen, does 

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anyone want to go first with 
When You Think Super Touring 

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Rivalry? 
I mean, I'm guessing, I think 

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the first one that everyone 
probably thinks of is Colon and 

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Sofa 1992. 
Should we get into that one 

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first of all? 
Yeah, I mean, it's actually not 

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that big a rival. 
I mean, obviously the incident 

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itself was huge, but the actual 
rivalry that came out of it in 

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the long term was actually 
Cleland and Harvey. 

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Yes, Because as we know, we've 
seen, we've spoken to all sides 

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of the story now. 
So we've heard all the each 

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angle of it. 
And John and Steve probably both

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a bit to blame for the actual 
incidents. 

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But it was over pretty much in a
couple of months for those two. 

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They got back speaking, you 
know, not long after. 

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But that rivalry and that sort 
of not enemies, but the fact 

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that John Cleland and Tim Harvey
still don't see eye to eye to 

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this day, actually, you know, 
it. 

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It's pretty. 
It's pretty mad considering it's

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over 30 years ago now. 
I think the Cleland and Super 

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part of that incident, I think 
that would probably have been 

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more of a rivalry if it had 
happened earlier in the season. 

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So they were racing again within
a fortnight. 

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But of course, having six months
off, we we all know the story of

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what happened in those in those 
months and all of that. 

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So they came back in 93 and 
they'd sort of put it behind 

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them. 
But as you mentioned now, I 

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think that the the real rivalry 
that came from that incident 

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really was Cleland and Harvey, 
which seemed to roll on really 

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for a few more years and that, 
you know, on the track and, as 

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you say, even longer, a few more
decades off of it. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, it it's, you know, the 

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the, as we said before we 
started recording, they had a 

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coming together at Snetton in 
94. 

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There was a big one at Thruxton 
in 97 where they were both 

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fighting back after changing 
onto the wet tires. 

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That race where Tim nearly won 
for Peugeot, Him and John came 

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together then. 
And even now whenever I speak to

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John Cleland, there's always a 
Tim Harvey joke in there 

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somewhere. 
It's crazy, isn't it really, 

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that those two didn't even come 
together on track, but they are 

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the ones that fell out with each
other? 

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Because the championship was 
taken. 

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It kind of shows how mentally 
rivalries can develop as well, 

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where as you say, that wasn't 
necessarily on track 

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confrontation and they were 
rivals. 

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But then again, we were 
discussing before the show, 

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weren't we? 
There's there's probably a lot 

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of on track confrontations 
between drivers at points that 

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weren't really rivalries either.
Well, they didn't come together 

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on track at once one point that 
season because the start of the 

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year Vauxhall were dominant 
because they were they were 

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ready with their car. 
Yes and the BMWs were struggling

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with the brand new 318. 
Vickley and Prodrive both didn't

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really know how to get best out 
of that new car. 

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And it was only when Victoria 
Lee and Tim found out, and if I 

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remember rightly, it was a 
flexing rear suspension arm that

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Tim diagnosed on the BMW that 
when they realized that this was

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an issue, they fixed it. 
And. 

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It's quick. 
Quick then, was it? 

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Tim was He won five or six in a 
row, didn't he? 

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Yes. 
And the Vauxhall was nowhere 

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near, so they never actually 
came together on track. 

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There was not one controversial 
moment between them on track. 

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That was that one flashpoint 
with SOPA. 

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And, and really that Silverstone
finale, the only reason they 

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ended up in the same place was 
because of the different 

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qualifiers they'd all had. 
They'd all had. 

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And so for being the wrong way 
down the track at one point in 

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the race, charging back with 
half a rare bumper, it wasn't 

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for that. 
You probably would have seen in 

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that race the BMW's clear off, 
never be seen again and Harvey 

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wins the title and there's no 
moment like that. 

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One thing that's always stuck 
with me about that 92 finale is 

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the rivalry that should have 
come out of it as such was Hoy 

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versus Harvey after that 
incident of Cops. 

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Because until then, as far as I 
remember, as long as this is 

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correct, I think that Hoy was 
actually in a winning 

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championship position at that 
point, or at least for a lot of 

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the race he was because he was 
by far the lead of the 

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contenders. 
And then that incident, of 

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course, put them behind Clement 
and Sopa, which led to what 

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happened later on. 
So in a way, the one that should

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be sort of most agreed was, was 
Hoy, in my opinion. 

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But I don't think anything ever 
really came out of that. 

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Too much other stuff going on 
right there, I think after that.

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And Will was just too nice. 
He not too nice. 

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He was just a lovely bloke, 
wasn't he? 

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You couldn't really. 
I can't remember a time where 

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even when he was angry, he was 
still a nice man. 

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But he wasn't a repeat offender 
like some of them, was he? 

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Where he'd continue to also dish
it out. 

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It's much like we're discussing 
in the Darlington 95 episode 

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where most drivers I think would
would try and blame someone 

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else. 
And he was very much in his own 

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way, holding his hands up. 
Certain possibly, but he will 

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will won't be featuring much in 
our list of rivalries. 

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I I think tonight. 
Well, unless we get on to the 

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team mates because you did have 
a few, few issues there. 

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Brands. 
When we talk about rivalries and

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maybe we should do it just a 
couple of minutes on on on what 

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what we're considering a rivalry
here because, as you say, will 

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Holly had his run insurance with
people on track. 

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He had his run insurance with 
team mates Wilson Science on 

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track. 
You wouldn't have called any of 

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them rivalries, I guess because 
of how they responded. 

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And a rivalry is when it kind of
starts to get chipper off track,

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isn't it as? 
Well, when that is. 

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Involved. 
That's a rivalry. 

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Grab someone around the throat, 
that's when he starts properly. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
That would be a rivalry or a war

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of words. 
You know where the where where 

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the genuinely aren't getting on.
And in the press having to go 

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with each other continuously. 
Yeah. 

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And I think I think that was 
kind of almost answered a couple

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of minutes ago and talking about
Will Hoy in that, yeah, he did 

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have some incidents, you know, a
couple with his teammates routes

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at Brands, Bailey, obviously 
Silverstone and all of that. 

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But I think that the approach of
Will Hoy, that wasn't 

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argumentative, that probably 
prevented any of the you. 

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Didn't have an ego, did they? 
No. 

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No. 
I'm sure we're going to come on 

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to some characters later that 
you know, had Will Hoy been 

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involved in it, it may not have 
went as it went as it did. 

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It may have fizzled down. 
But because he wasn't, obviously

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it was a it blew up a bit more. 
I don't think the grandstand 

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cameras were ever following Will
Hoy after they were maybe 

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following a few other people. 
There was once, there was only 

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once that I remember seeing him 
pissed off, which was at Alton 

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Park in 96 and there was a start
line crash and and he ended up 

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in the pit war. 
He, I can't remember who 

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triggered it. 
I know Radissick was involved 

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and he went into the wall on one
side and he went in on the other

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side and the camera was walking 
with Will down the pit lane and 

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he was, he was pissed off then. 
And I think that's the only time

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I've I've seen I've seen him 
like that and not, not the 

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normal sort of call and jolly 
well that we all know. 

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Thruxton, 91, He was annoyed 
with Jonathan Palmer. 

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Well done, BMW. 
Well done, BMW. 

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Yeah, that's it. 
Yeah, that's the only other time

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I can think and I'll see. 
That's championship pressure, 

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isn't it? 
You know, And of course, talking

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of BMWs in 1991 and set twos on 
track. 

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Can't forget the one and only 
Netan lingering, can we I? 

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Think we've been trying to find 
a time to discuss Netan Linger 

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on this podcast, haven't we for 
a while? 

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Alex has just found it. 
She had a brief stint in the 

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tight in in the championship, 
but yeah, she did make her mark,

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didn't she? 
Particularly that afternoon at 

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Snetterton when she came across 
Doctor Palmer on track. 

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And there's Netan. 
I bet she's not best pleased 

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either. 
She certainly doesn't look as 

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though she thinks it was her 
fault. 

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This is going to be, and she 
doesn't. 

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Hell hath. 
No fury like a woman ran, but 

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the crowd loved it. 
I think people maybe have this 

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perception that, you know, she 
was trundling around at the back

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and she wasn't she she had 
decent pace. 

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So I met certainly round one at 
Silverstone. 

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I remember she was part of that 
5 or 6 car battle for 6th place 

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and you know, and this one at 
Snetterton, she, she held Palmer

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off for a few laps. 
Well and he was in a pro drive. 

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Works BMW as well. 
Yeah, yeah, yes. 

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So. 
So she was definitely worthy of 

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her place. 
And it was a real move of 

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frustration, wasn't it? 
I think which is probably what 

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she she didn't appreciate the 
gesture. 

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Yeah, I don't think anybody 
would have. 

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Like you look at the movie, it 
was never on, was it? 

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It's never on, but it it I think
as well, it was an underfunded 

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outfit who were doing well in a 
race and then here comes. 

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The works. 
BMW works BMW and so I can tell 

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you now. 
And just clean out. 

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And I love the fact that she 
went over to him, pulled the 

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door open. 
Where am I supposed to go? 

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I think that's what she says or 
something along those lines. 

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00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,880
What are you trying to do? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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It's. 
And the cheer from the crack. 

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The cheer. 
And then obviously topped off 

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with Murray's Hell hath no fury 
like a woman rammed. 

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If there was any doubt as to 
whether Nathan made it or not, I

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00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,240
can I can tell you a little 
story is that about a year 

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later, extremely randomly, so my
mum got a pet rat and she she 

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knew the rest of us were 
massively into motor racing and 

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she couldn't come up with a 
name. 

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And then eventually she came up 
with Nathan. 

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Oh wow, OK, because she knew 
that there was a touring car 

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link, so she went with it. 
So there you go, nested Lingwin.

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If you're listening, she. 
Does follow our socials so she 

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00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,760
might well be listening. 
But I think that that corner, 

226
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,920
you know, I think you'd 
mentioned it, Levi. 

227
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,760
The move came as sort of stunk 
of bitter desperation. 

228
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,680
And that corner had other 
similar incidents. 

229
00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:56,360
Beela and Leslie was was one. 
Yeah, I think 1994, it was 

230
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,560
either Jan Lammers twice or it 
was each Volvo once took someone

231
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:01,960
out there. 
Volvo once. 

232
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,040
Yeah, it was each Volvo once 
took someone out there as well. 

233
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,880
I think it was a, it was one of 
those corners that probably 

234
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,960
built up to, I suppose because 
you've got all the momentum that

235
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,240
comes pretty much from the end 
of the s s through the bum hole 

236
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,160
and round Coram on that 
particular layout. 

237
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,840
And then it's one of the best 
overtaking opportunities and I 

238
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,480
suppose a lot of desperate 
moves, a lot of the moves that 

239
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,560
happened there just stink of 
desperation a little bit. 

240
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,880
Colin and Thompson. 
As well, I like the layout as it

241
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,520
was. 
Then, but it was better than it.

242
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,840
Is yes, yeah, yeah. 
Way, way better and the bum 

243
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,400
hole, like it was just a great 
corner because a lot of the time

244
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,560
it wasn't quite flat out, but it
was nearly flat out or if used 

245
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,800
on new tires, it was flat out 
within as the tires were 

246
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,680
wearing, it wasn't quite flat 
out. 

247
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,680
So you'd always got that the 
compression like the feeling of 

248
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,000
the car literally bottoming out 
the, you know, jumping back at 

249
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,680
the top and you needed, you 
couldn't afford to come off the 

250
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,640
throttle for too long. 
It was just literally a very 

251
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,240
slight at times. 
And obviously the wet very 

252
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,360
interesting. 
But like you said, it's that 

253
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,520
momentum from coming out of the 
chicane. 

254
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,360
The bum hole was there, but you 
didn't like it. 

255
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,720
Just you didn't want it to 
affect you with that run all the

256
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,360
ways at Quorum. 
Yeah. 

257
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:14,960
Is that the, is that the right 
then? 

258
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,360
Yeah, Yeah. 
So it was all momentum. 

259
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,080
It was all momentum and when you
go on the new circuit now I just

260
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,800
think it's been ruined to be 
honest. 

261
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,120
Now, as you said, Matt, one of 
the incidents down there, 1996, 

262
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,040
Thompson and Clement in the 
Vectors when they were both 

263
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,280
quite squabbling for the Vectors
first within that day, which 

264
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,440
Thompson ended up getting. 
That was an interesting teammate

265
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,480
dynamic, wasn't it? 
And it's something that we spoke

266
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,680
with Ray Malik about as well. 
It wasn't so much a rivalry, but

267
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,400
you could tell it wasn't the 
easiest relationship in the 

268
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,760
world, was it? 
I think from the the podcast 

269
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,400
that you guys did with James 
Thompson, he said he was, he was

270
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,240
really pleased to just be there.
He didn't mind that he had the 

271
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,280
second choice of tyres and it 
was all of that. 

272
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:09,680
But that was 95, I think 9, I 
think, I think 96 with the new 

273
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,680
car. 
And they weren't right at the 

274
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,480
front. 
It was a real time to say that 

275
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,160
I'm just as good as as John or 
anyone else. 

276
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,720
And yeah, it can't have really 
been easy because I'm, you know,

277
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,680
James hadn't had a teammate 
before and the one that he got 

278
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,760
was Cleland. 
And it can't have been easy for 

279
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,360
Cleland because he had similarly
aged Jeff Allen was similar sort

280
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,200
of experience. 
And John was slightly in front. 

281
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,560
And then all of a sudden you've 
got someone half your age that's

282
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,760
pipping you and qualifying and 
all of that sort of stuff. 

283
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,400
I could very much imagine that 
day was much more about the 

284
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,360
Vectors first win and it was 
more about asserting dominance 

285
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,760
if you like. 
Yes, absolutely. 

286
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,680
Those two were both sides say 
they both had respect for each 

287
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:03,960
other, but when it came to the 
rivalry, it definitely was 

288
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,240
there. 
They both wanted to get that 

289
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,480
first win for the for the Vectra
and, and as you say, James got 

290
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,520
it. 
But even in 95, you know, John 

291
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,680
said he found it tough because 
as Matt just says, he's had his 

292
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,760
best mate, Jeff Allen, in the 
car alongside him for the last 

293
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,360
few years and pretty much had 
the measure of him. 

294
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,400
And suddenly this young upstart 
is coming along and, and 

295
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,120
suddenly set in at the bar a bit
higher and, and, and John's 

296
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,040
having to match it. 
And, you know, he did it. 

297
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,680
He did it brilliantly in 95. 
Wonderful championship year. 

298
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,320
But yeah, James certainly made 
things a lot more uncomfortable 

299
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,680
for John than than he was used 
to. 

300
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaking of Colin, then also in 
1995 he had a bit of a run in 

301
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,120
with Rickard Riedel during that 
championship run at Brands 

302
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,640
Hatch. 
It got quite nasty that day, 

303
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,800
didn't it, Between the two of 
them. 

304
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,839
Yeah, it's it was, it was quite 
a good-natured championship 

305
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,280
battle between the two of them. 
There was the odd bit of banter.

306
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,720
You know, John has told us about
how he would say to Ricard, I'm 

307
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,960
going to pass you here when you 
have one of your bad starts 

308
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,119
again sort of thing, which you 
know that, Yeah. 

309
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:29,200
Which then did happen, but it 
did get quite tense at brands at

310
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,520
Bank Holiday, August Bank 
Holiday meeting and they always 

311
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,760
seemed to, I don't know if there
was something in the air around 

312
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,320
around that time of year because
every year it always seemed to 

313
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:44,640
kick off. 
But in race one, Ricard hit the 

314
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,840
back of Clelands Vauxhall. 
That meant Will Hoy was allowed 

315
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,240
to go around the outside pretty 
much unchallenged to take the 

316
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,960
win, his first win for years and
his first win in a Renault. 

317
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,760
And then in race 2, as they're 
battling for the for the lead, 

318
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,240
it looks like, and I do think, 
and I maybe Adam and Matt might 

319
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,120
on yourself, Levi might 
disagree, but it looked like 

320
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:15,480
John very, very slightly touches
the back of Ricard as they come 

321
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:22,320
in through the last corner and 
he sort of tips Ricard into a 

322
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,280
spin. 
And by the time Ricard catches 

323
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,880
it and gets going, John's gone 
and he takes the win. 

324
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,920
And from what it sounded like 
there were Tom Walkinshaw was 

325
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,000
going around to all the 
photographers saying, if you got

326
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,880
photos of this, if you got 
photos of that, if you got a 

327
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,600
photo of John touching our car 
and then you've got John in the 

328
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,600
pits going Vauxhall, then 
designer like that. 

329
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,680
Volvo designed it like that. 
It was all getting very tense 

330
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,360
and you could tell that the 
championship battle was coming 

331
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:52,360
to it. 
Yeah. 

332
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,360
Yeah. 
Coming to to boil, should we 

333
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,240
say? 
Very interesting. 

334
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,120
Yeah. 
Do you think, do you think John 

335
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,520
hit the back? 
I think it looked just like the 

336
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,960
slightest touch. 
He must have. 

337
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,080
He must have because you 
wouldn't lose a front wheel 

338
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,760
drive car thought the back end 
of flight coming out of there 

339
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,000
was like you needed needed help,
didn't it? 

340
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,560
So I'm almost certain that 
John's headlight was kind of 

341
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,960
knocked a bit out of shape. 
And it didn't. 

342
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,640
It didn't just fall. 
Out. 

343
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,640
So Vauxhall didn't design it 
like that. 

344
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,520
John's adamant he didn't touch 
him. 

345
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,840
I I think it might have been the
first example of the can opener.

346
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,240
I I was thinking this sounds 
very can opener. 

347
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,000
It was it was a story car move 
when it was a it was a an 

348
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,280
experienced touring car movie 
without it being a blatant. 

349
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,400
And it'll be in his head as 
well. 

350
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,560
Ricard got me in race one. 
Yeah, yeah. 

351
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:47,760
I'm going to get him back. 
Yeah. 

352
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,480
That's what he and that's what 
it was then and he always was 

353
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,960
throughout, you know, even the 
time when I was there, you know,

354
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,560
you, you had to give it a good 
as you got because otherwise 

355
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,600
you'd just get bullied. 
And we spoke about this before. 

356
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,880
You've got to, you know, you do 
that or do it again and then 

357
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,600
that's what it was like. 
You know, you're never going to 

358
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,200
get away with it. 
Similarly NASCAR I think. 

359
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,960
You know NASCAR is to the 
extreme, isn't it? 

360
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,200
Like they will do things to the 
extreme, but you know that's the

361
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,960
same, like you've never 
forgotten. 

362
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,800
Might not be the next race, but 
I will get more revenge. 

363
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,240
It did seem to be Bank Holiday 
France. 

364
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,680
Was those fractures. 
I mean, maybe it's the 

365
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,680
combination of one of the 
tighter venues on the calendar. 

366
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,160
Yeah, there is. 
There wasn't much opportunities 

367
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,040
and I guess if you were one and 
two in a title battle following 

368
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,800
each other in a race, you'd get 
quite frustrated and and the 

369
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,000
stakes are higher than in April 
or May, isn't it? 

370
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,600
I guess rather than than than in
August where you're in the last 

371
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,880
stretch that it did always seem 
to kick off, not always between 

372
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,960
championship track and it's I'm 
sure we'll get on to. 

373
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,640
No, it's true. 
Sometimes between guest drivers.

374
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,840
And who on earth would you be 
talking about there? 

375
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,760
You might as well start get the 
out your system. 

376
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,920
Start at the start. 
Shall we donate Donnington 93 

377
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,000
Technically not a British 
touring car event, of course No,

378
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:14,960
no, the shoe town the man saw 
fresh off his Victory tour in 

379
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,280
the US. 
It's come to the. 

380
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,560
That's what made it so big 
though, wasn't it? 

381
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,000
Because Nigel. 
One and US in two years. 

382
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,240
Nigel. 
But Nigel hadn't raced in 

383
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,560
Britain throughout 1993, 
obviously was racing in America,

384
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,520
so this was the only chance 
British fans could welcome the 

385
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,600
reigning champion effectively in
both F1. 

386
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,080
Didn't he hold it for like one 
week? 

387
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,120
Wasn't the F1 reigning champion 
and Indycars something like 

388
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,360
that? 
So that's why the crowd was huge

389
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,840
that day. 
It was bigger than the European 

390
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,880
Grand Prix in April. 
It was massive, absolutely 

391
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,200
massive, yeah. 
It was a huge event. 

392
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,240
That was a man. 
Sylmania Gentlemen at its 

393
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,120
finest. 
So. 

394
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:02,720
Maybe one of them. 
Yeah. 

395
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,040
And obviously, as we know 
already, Tiff and Nigel never 

396
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,240
really got on, didn't really say
something to do with a Formula 

397
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,240
Three drive. 
I think so, yeah. 

398
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,800
It's it's roots are in the early
80s aren't. 

399
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,000
They Yeah, and a. 
Lot of people wouldn't have 

400
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,120
realized that at the time. 
They thought it'd all stemmed 

401
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,120
from obviously the incident 
there, but it wasn't. 

402
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:26,920
It goes a lot. 
Further, they already didn't 

403
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:33,720
like each other at the start 
before, so I felt sorry for Tiff

404
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,840
in that incident at Donnington 
because. 

405
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,280
Because the whole of Donningson 
was against him. 

406
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,880
Yes. 
Effectively, yeah. 

407
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,160
Literally. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

408
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,600
Of all the events, the biggest 
grad you've ever seen in your 

409
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,440
life and everybody hates Tiffed 
up. 

410
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,440
Yeah, you know that way. 
So. 

411
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,760
But like I said, I think the 
accident had already happened. 

412
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,120
The time to time Tiff really 
arrived at it, you know, it was 

413
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,800
already done. 
It was already happening and 

414
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,040
Tiff didn't really make much of 
a difference to what was already

415
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,440
a crash. 
It was already happening, wasn't

416
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,400
it? 
Yeah, Mansell was heading to 

417
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,800
that that brick wall already. 
It just went a bit harder and a 

418
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,040
bit it made it for it was a 
nasty accident. 

419
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,360
Made it more violent. 
Yeah, the obviously the the 

420
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:21,320
Mondeo was destroyed, but he 
made front page news, wasn't it?

421
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,400
It's, it's mad to think about it
now you know, it's, Can you 

422
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,560
imagine any touring car race 
being on the front of the sun or

423
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,560
the mirror and the Daily Mail or
whatever, you know? 

424
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,320
Even we imagine if they did it 
now, right, they say Verstappen 

425
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,720
or Hamilton, probably the two 
biggest names in Formula One. 

426
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,280
For a long time. 
I can't see being on the front 

427
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,240
page of a newspaper on a Monday 
morning. 

428
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,840
No, I can't. 
It'd be on the back page. 

429
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,200
It's not the front pages. 
Yeah, but, and that's the whole 

430
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,560
thing. 
We put things into perspective 

431
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,960
really just and you try and 
explain this to people just how 

432
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,040
big touring cars were generally.
But also there's that 

433
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,280
comparison, I think from months 
or mania and how things were 

434
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,240
then compared to like your 
Hamilton's now. 

435
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,560
Yeah, Hamilton's big is massive.
We've got lots of support, but 

436
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,200
nowhere near what he was back 
then. 

437
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,080
No, because people could people 
could associate themselves. 

438
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,200
They could they could appreciate
months of being, you know, the 

439
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,840
older guy with a mustache 
working bloke sold his house 

440
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,400
gone motor at like anyone that 
you sell a Formula One grid now 

441
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,840
and even most of the probably 
the towing car paddock now, like

442
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,200
they've never wanted to die in 
their life. 

443
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,160
I don't know what work is, do 
you know what I mean? 

444
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,760
But Mansell was a working bloke 
that had done what he could to 

445
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,520
to push everything to make it 
and go. 

446
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,720
And that's why people could 
relate to him. 

447
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,640
And I think that's why he had 
the following he had and as and 

448
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,560
as big as the wins. 
And looking at the amount of 

449
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,880
times that Hamilton's weren't at
Silverstone, he's never had 

450
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,480
that, never had man Sylmania, 
like he's never had that like 

451
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,240
that. 
That's that was something else 

452
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,680
back then. 
Yeah, it was. 

453
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,040
And it and it and I arrived at 
Donington. 

454
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,880
I felt Nigel's comments didn't 
help Tiff either. 

455
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:02,640
I felt at the end, but as you 
say, they already didn't get on.

456
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,160
So that's always going to be 
that way. 

457
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,080
I guess I did feel sorry for 
Tiff because even though we put 

458
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,920
up that accident a couple of 
weeks ago on on our Facebook 

459
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,800
pages and there's, there's one 
guy going. 

460
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,880
I still hate Tiffany Dell for 
this. 

461
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,600
And I'm like I thought I said, 
but. 

462
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,920
He did nothing. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

463
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,720
yeah. 
Nothing wrong. 

464
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,520
He comments to yourself, Adam. 
Sorry, sorry, was my name on the

465
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,920
end of that? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

466
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,880
I think he probably looks back 
and regrets that because I think

467
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,760
he that was a hurting man. 
He'd never admit it, though. 

468
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,600
He'd never admit it. 
He'd never admit. 

469
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,440
It he would never admit. 
I think that's a man that was in

470
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,840
a lot of pain. 
I think I'm just reaction. 

471
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,120
To it don't stop the accent now 
I'm already doing it I'm already

472
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,040
doing it he's. 
Been done from his Anthony Reed 

473
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,920
impressions too, yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

474
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:58,680
I felt for Tiff because Nigel's 
comments weren't helpful, but it

475
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,600
put touring cars. 
I mean, you already had the big 

476
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,720
hit from 92, the season finale, 
but again, 93 now. 

477
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,880
You had Nigel Mansell front page
of everything. 

478
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,800
It put touring cars on the map. 
It put the championship on the 

479
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,000
map. 
As you say, it wasn't a 

480
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,080
technically a BTCC race, but it 
was effectively that. 

481
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,440
It was the same cars. 
It was a BTCC track. 

482
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,720
It was all. 
In that race, everybody knew 

483
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,600
what BTCC was. 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

484
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,320
On ground stand. 
So yeah, it's people would 

485
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,680
TuneIn just to watch Nigel and 
probably fell in love with 

486
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,600
touring cars when they did so. 
And I think that that is what 

487
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,920
led on to Round 2 a few years 
later. 

488
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,880
You know, they between them they
only did about 20 touring car 

489
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,160
races, but they did manage to 
come together. 

490
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,840
But they were the undercard. 
They were the undercard five 

491
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,080
years later. 
It was exactly that. 

492
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:02,080
It was the undercard where you 
have two older fighters renewing

493
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,240
their rivalry again as guests. 
Again, Frank Brands Bank holiday

494
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,960
August weekend. 
Yeah, and you add, of course, 

495
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,960
Mansell, the guest driver in the
Ford is second guest appearance 

496
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,160
of the season, Tiffin the Nissan
as a Top Gear feature. 

497
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,080
And they came together again, 
didn't they? 

498
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,480
And Nigel and Tiff, well, they 
came together twice that day, 

499
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,880
once on track and months off 
track. 

500
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:35,040
It was in the feature race. 
Nigel was already pretty 

501
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,720
annoyed. 
Another run in he had quite 

502
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:45,880
regularly throughout 98 was with
Mark Lemma, and Nigel's race 

503
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,760
ended on lap one in the first 
race after an incident with what

504
00:27:51,760 --> 00:28:00,680
he felt was Lemma's fault. 
And then in race 2, Nigel 

505
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,720
allegedly went into the back of 
Tiffany Dell and claimed that 

506
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,840
Tiff was brake testing him. 
And then, yeah, as you say, 

507
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,400
around the back of the pits, 
whilst all the cameras were 

508
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,280
focused on Reedy and Rydell, 
which we'll talk about in a bit,

509
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,560
I'm sure Nigel and Tiff had 
their own little scuffle. 

510
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,400
And Nigel was in a very bad mood
that weekend. 

511
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,800
He was falling out with 
everyone, bless him, to the 

512
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,800
point where he was, he was even 
furious with the TV producers 

513
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,400
because they had played his 
radio rant outs when he got his 

514
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800
drive through penalty and he was
like, that's it, I'm not racing 

515
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,920
at Silverstone. 
I don't want a camera, I don't 

516
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,280
want this. 
And yeah, he was his own worst 

517
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,880
enemy that weekend, I think. 
I think he did. 

518
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,720
He'd had such, such a good run 
at Donnington in the wet. 

519
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:55,880
It was never going to be the 
same. 

520
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160
A bone dry Brands Hatch, was it?
No. 

521
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,840
And it was something that you 
guys mentioned on a previous 

522
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,240
episode. 
You know, Donnington that year 

523
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,520
saw the best of him, and Brand 
definitely saw the worst. 

524
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,880
Saw the worst? 
You know, you, you mentioned it 

525
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,520
to me. 
It's a comical little thing You 

526
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,040
mentioned about about Mark 
Lemmer. 

527
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,880
Of course, they'd also come 
together and practice at 

528
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,760
Donington. 
Yeah. 

529
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,800
And like, I'm sure that when you
look at the entry list at the 

530
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,520
beginning of 1998, you look at 
the entry list and go, oh, who's

531
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,000
going to have a fallings out 
this year? 

532
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,360
You just would not have put 
Nigel Mansell and Mark Lemmer as

533
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,680
the duo that we're going to, 
that we're going to keep 

534
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,320
clashing. 
No, you wouldn't, would you? 

535
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,040
But certainly, you know, somehow
these things just come to bear. 

536
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,320
It always just seemed to to be, 
it was always the unfortunate 

537
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Mark Lemmer who, as you say, 
practice. 

538
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,840
I'd have run in with him and 
then I'd have run in with him at

539
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,200
Brands as well. 
And yeah, it never rains with 

540
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,840
pause. 
But whilst we're on the subject 

541
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,560
of that weekend brands, should 
we talk about the main event 

542
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,520
now? 
Because it was, and again, as we

543
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,680
discussed earlier, another, 
another August bank holiday 

544
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,800
running with championship 
implications. 

545
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,640
In the silver corner, the Volvo 
S40 of Ricard Rydell and in the 

546
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,080
white corner, the Nissan Primera
of Anthony Reed. 

547
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:27,440
And I think again, this is this 
is a situation where the Nissans

548
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,720
have started to kind of catch 
up. 

549
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Anthony got a very good run mid 
season and I think Ricard was 

550
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,680
feeling the pressure and Anthony
also kind of realised this could

551
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,000
be done. 
And I think for both of them, 

552
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,920
those emotions came to a head on
a weekend where they were really

553
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,080
the class of the field as well, 
weren't they? 

554
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,440
Especially in the feature race 
where there was a lot of 

555
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,880
defending from Ricard, wasn't 
there? 

556
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,040
So yeah, Anthony wasn't even in 
the sort of the discussion at 

557
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,200
the preseason talk about who was
going to win the championship. 

558
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,360
Nobody, nobody had Anthony Reed 
down on their on their most 

559
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640
people thought Allen Menu was 
going to take a second title. 

560
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,400
Ricard was mentioned by a 
couple, but most people had had 

561
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,440
Allen menu down as the 
championship favorite and really

562
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760
took the first win, ironically 
in the Mansell Donington race. 

563
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,280
So his first win that weekend 
and went on this insane run of 

564
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,080
Sprint race wins. 
But curiously, never took a 

565
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,480
feature race went, which was 
always a bit it was a. 

566
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,920
Bit odd. 
It was odd, wasn't it? 

567
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,200
Was always something was 
happening either, like a 

568
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Donington. 
He went off, didn't he? 

569
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,480
And yeah, not kill. 
It didn't quite work. 

570
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:50,160
So at the halfway point of 98, 
Ricard is got a good lead in the

571
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,640
championship and I think his 
nearest challenger is Alan Alan.

572
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,520
Yeah. 
And then suddenly out of 

573
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,080
nowhere, Reed wins Bang Bang, 
bang while at four or five 

574
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Sprint races in a row. 
Then you get to knock hill, 

575
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,040
Reedy wins again and Ricard's in
the barrier. 

576
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,200
And suddenly that championship 
lead that looked so comfortable 

577
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:20,160
for Ricard was a lot closer. 
And not only that, Anthony and 

578
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,240
the Nissan at that point with a 
quicker package. 

579
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,040
So, yeah, I can I can totally 
understand Ricard feeling the 

580
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,240
pressure there. 
And when you actually look at 

581
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,240
the incident, it's it's not that
awful. 

582
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,360
It's no different. 
Do you know what I mean? 

583
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,200
It's no, don't get me wrong. 
The, the the right decision was 

584
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,800
made. 
It was a shove. 

585
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,720
It did push Ricard wide, it was 
the can opener but not not at 

586
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,920
clear ways. 
So the right decision was made 

587
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,560
for them to reverse the 
positions, but it wasn't. 

588
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,560
I was shocked at how angry 
Ricard got about it. 

589
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:09,360
It it felt like an incident that
kind of showed how touring car 

590
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,440
racing has perhaps matured and 
become more professional through

591
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,000
the era. 
If you look at an incident like 

592
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,440
92 where it's quite a 
professional found from Steve 

593
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:27,960
Sofer, that move at Love Field, 
you know, there's no ambiguity 

594
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,560
about it. 
He misses the apex by about 10 

595
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,320
meters, Samson to the side of 
Cleland. 

596
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,920
And then you compare that 
incident where as you say, it's 

597
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,840
a shove it it was wasn't really 
the worst we ever seen and it 

598
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,200
has elicited a quite a violent 
reaction from record based race,

599
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,200
wasn't it? 
Yeah, pressure. 

600
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320
The incident wasn't 1,000,000 
miles away from what we 

601
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,080
discussed earlier with Ryder and
Cleland in 95 going up. 

602
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,560
It wasn't 1,000,000 miles away 
from that. 

603
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,880
And yeah, so to, to be on the 
receiving end of it, it was the,

604
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,320
it was the pressure of the 
championship as as you guys have

605
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,280
said, like halfway through the 
year, he didn't have a 

606
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
particularly close challenger. 
I know that after the Donnington

607
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,199
meeting, I think Cleland was 
second in the championship. 

608
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,600
And of course he, you know, he 
wasn't ever really going to be 

609
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,120
in the fight. 
And then you, you had all of 

610
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,960
these people that were second at
one point, you know, Thompson, 

611
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,360
Cleland, Menu, probably Plato as
well. 

612
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,000
And all the time Ricard was 
building up that lead. 

613
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,280
And then, yeah, so when Reid 
went on his run, it must have 

614
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,159
just got to him like, oh, shit, 
I might be about to lose this. 

615
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,280
And, and I think it was the 
pressure and I think it was that

616
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,560
that created the reaction 
because as you said, the the 

617
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,920
incident is the sort of thing 
that happens in just about every

618
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,719
race. 
Yeah, I'm shocked. 

619
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,639
And he reacts. 
Still angry, especially being 

620
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:54,480
Ricard. 
And Ricard didn't like the 

621
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,040
Archie bargie. 
He wasn't. 

622
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,160
That wasn't him. 
No, he's come from a single 

623
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,440
seater background as well. 
So he but you could just tell 

624
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,800
his character he wasn't, he 
wanted to it all be fair. 

625
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,080
He wasn't unlike a lot of single
seats of guys that have gone 

626
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,680
into that, you either accept it 
and get on with it and you dish 

627
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,360
it out as good as you receive 
it. 

628
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000
But he wasn't, he just wasn't 
that a person. 

629
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:17,840
And I think that's why it got to
him. 

630
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,960
Yeah, that's. 
True, you could physically see 

631
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:26,000
that he got to him. 
I think as well, I guess Rick 

632
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,360
Harden and also Alan Meni, they 
were kind of the two drivers in 

633
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,040
that period that had worked, 
worked, worked for years and got

634
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,120
their chance at the title. 
And I think Ricard, where he'd 

635
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,480
seen Alan do it so easily and 
comfortably the year before. 

636
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,280
It must have felt, especially at
that time where he thought he'd 

637
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,000
lost that race as well. 
He must have felt like such a 

638
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,280
blow thinking this is my chance 
and I'm not going to take it and

639
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,880
that the level of pressure where
it's year and year and year is 

640
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,760
built as well. 
That's probably where we saw a 

641
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,320
very different regard to as you 
say, Adam, that the one we 

642
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,560
normally saw who was never 
really that kind of, you know, 

643
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,360
as good as he gets it driver, he
was always OK, I'll take it, 

644
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,040
I'll absorb it and I'll just do 
my thing. 

645
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,000
He's. 
One of these guys that wants to 

646
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,160
put it on pole, go off in the 
lead and win the race on his own

647
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,160
and and fastest lap. 
Do all of that and just win it. 

648
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:27,240
He wasn't the guy that was in 
the middle of the pack or in 

649
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,160
amongst it that wanted to get 
his elbows out. 

650
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,080
I think he had to learn it and I
got all that to learning. 

651
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,520
But obviously there's different 
severities of that that we've 

652
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,200
seen where some are a bit 
tougher than others and but he 

653
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,360
certainly wasn't up there. 
We were the ones that are 

654
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,280
really, really, really getting 
their elbows out. 

655
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,680
To show the pace of the Nissan 
at that point. 

656
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,360
So if you recall, and it's 
brilliant, brilliant tactical 

657
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,600
driving by Ricard at the start 
of that race, they're coming up 

658
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,360
into Druids and he's parking it 
practically on. 

659
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,600
Yeah, on the, on the, on the 
ape. 

660
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,640
He's really so close behind him,
he can't do anything about it. 

661
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,800
To the point where Thompson goes
around the outside of Anthony 

662
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,360
and I think Anthony drops to 
about 7th and Rickard must be 

663
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,440
thinking, oh, this is perfect, 
this is exactly how I wanted it.

664
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,600
But really just put his foot 
down past the two Renaults and 

665
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,920
and clawed his way back up to 
Ricard and and Ricard must have 

666
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,200
been thinking how on earth have 
you managed to get back here? 

667
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,160
And yeah. 
And then obviously the the move 

668
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,720
happens and and really takes the
win. 

669
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:43,400
But it's soon taken off him. 
I remember Nissan's little 

670
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,400
protest. 
They put round 16, whatever it 

671
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,000
was, I can't remember what round
it was. 

672
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,360
Winner and then they just put a 
big X on the side because used 

673
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,040
to mark these put a little decal
for every win on the cars and 

674
00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:01,680
they just put this big X through
it yeah it's it's funny what 

675
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,760
pressure of a title battle does 
to people and as Adam said a 

676
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,080
very cool calm Swede normally. 
I think think 1 interesting 

677
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,280
thing to note is we spoke a 
couple of weeks ago about the 

678
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,960
Silverstone 2000 finale and how 
how Reed was maybe over the top 

679
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,880
with his defensiveness, which 
cost him. 

680
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,280
Whereas, you know, Ricard's 
defensiveness was pretty much 

681
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,520
perfection, as you said about 
that move earlier in the race 

682
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,840
where he managed to back Reed 
up. 

683
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,840
So he'd obviously kept a cool 
head about what he needed to do.

684
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,680
But I suppose looking at it the 
other way as well, Anthony still

685
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,360
knew he had that gap to close. 
He had to win that race, yes. 

686
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,960
So yeah, I suppose it was, it 
was always going to happen. 

687
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,360
So it's, I guess the question 
is, should Ricard have just let 

688
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,240
him go? 
Because of course, if that 

689
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,200
contact had been a bit harder, 
he could have ended up in the 

690
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,760
gravel barriers, whatever. 
Should Ricard maybe have just 

691
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,560
let him go? 
But the still, it still doesn't 

692
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,960
explain the reaction. 
I think that that reaction was 

693
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,480
very, very surprising. 
What would have riled Ricard 

694
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,320
even more is when they were 
coming up to the last lap or I 

695
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,520
can't move is like the 
penultimate or the last lap. 

696
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,800
They were coming up to lap 
Tiffany Dell in the third 

697
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,760
Nissan. 
As Levi said, he was doing a 

698
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,000
feature for Top Gear magazine, 
not Top Gear magazine, Top Gear,

699
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,080
the TV program at the time, 
where they were following the 

700
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,240
third Nissan for the weekend 
with the cameras. 

701
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:39,520
And he dutifully let's Anthony 
read straight past and then 

702
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,240
parks it in front of Rickard 
coming through clearways. 

703
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,080
So that would have been another 
moment of Rickard just going, 

704
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,040
oh. 
Don't. 

705
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,680
You know. 
And it has seen that coming as 

706
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,320
well, seeing that Tiffy's up 
there. 

707
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,320
He didn't know like, oh, I know 
what's coming here. 

708
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,120
I know what's coming here. 
And then he did it like he did 

709
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,200
that. 
Ravaglia. 

710
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,880
He's he's an. 
Expert that it wasn't, he had 

711
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,360
been that perfect teammate where
I will be a parent in the ass 

712
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,280
and I will do what I have to do 
and worry about the consequences

713
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,560
afterwards sort of scenario. 
Yeah, but I was going to say, 

714
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560
don't forget, the Tiff's mirror 
had been knocked out of 

715
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,520
alignment because someone 
rear-ended him, didn't they, 

716
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,640
man? 
Managed Managed to see Roy 

717
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,600
Dello. 
Managed to see Reedy, didn't he?

718
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,680
Talking of Bravali, he's got to 
be featuring at some point in 

719
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,360
this episode, doesn't he? 
I think he fell out with 

720
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,640
everyone in that you. 
See this his own episode. 

721
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,760
He thought out with himself, 
wouldn't he? 

722
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,000
Yeah. 
I mean, I mean where do we want 

723
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,560
to start? 
There were two main flashpoints 

724
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,080
in 96. 
There was his his seemingly 

725
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,960
ongoing rivalry with Paul 
Radisson and then of course as 

726
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,840
as Adam touched on last race of 
1996 where in attempting to 

727
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,200
assist Peter Cox in victory 
didn't quite did go 3 clear ways

728
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,000
quite slowly on the last laugh 
in front of race leader Alan 

729
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,560
Menu. 
I used to love Marie's naivety. 

730
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,440
Oh, there's Roberto Rovalia. 
He's slowed down, isn't he? 

731
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:13,360
As much of assisting Peter Cox, 
did he did he feel that there 

732
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,480
was a bit of revenge to be paid 
out to Alan? 

733
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,240
I mean, he probably thought, 
I've not fallen out with Alan 

734
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:22,160
yet, That's time to do that. 
Yeah, he's still on my list. 

735
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,920
I haven't take that one yet. 
We've got one last driver to 

736
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,800
take off for the and I've got 
yeah. 

737
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,080
Yeah, yeah. 
So, yeah, that, that, that that 

738
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:36,880
incident with with them, I see. 
Obviously he's trying to help 

739
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,680
his teammate Peter Cox win the 
race, but it's so blatant, it's 

740
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:48,680
so bad that I can't quite 
believe that you have the balls 

741
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,040
to do it. 
It's just, I mean, you know, 

742
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,280
it's crazy. 
And and Alan was rightly furious

743
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,480
in part for me. 
I can tell you we can do without

744
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,000
this Rabbi here. 
And then slammed his hand on the

745
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,920
bonnet of the of the BMW. 
Take that, Ravalia. 

746
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:17,960
Dare I say it, a smarter shit 
house may have may have 

747
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,800
potentially slowed over the 
course of the lab. 

748
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,760
Yeah, so then just Parker, 
whereas Romania went to his 

749
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,320
normal pace for the lab and then
just slowed down to stop out. 

750
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,440
Arctic. 
It just made it look so much 

751
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,400
but. 
Then after after the race, oh I 

752
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,440
had engine problems. 
But Ravalli didn't care, did he?

753
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,640
He didn't care. 
Didn't he do Did he do something

754
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,920
similar? 
Snet. 

755
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:54,200
He had a big coming together 
with with. 

756
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,160
Where was the rad? 
There's a few with Radicich, 

757
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,800
wasn't it? 
Yes. 

758
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,040
Yeah, there's something with. 
That was menu. 

759
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,520
That was menu and Rivali, wasn't
it? 

760
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,120
Yes, it was. 
Yes, it was. 

761
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,880
Yeah. 
Rivali, do you remember like you

762
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,280
took like the inside curb and 
that's it? 

763
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,800
Yeah. 
And the suspension often that 

764
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,040
was we've spoke about that 
before, but there's did that one

765
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,480
at SNET like he's just. 
It started with menu didn't it? 

766
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,320
Menu was menu was out dragging 
him on the outside up the start 

767
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,680
and finish straight. 
That's right and. 

768
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,320
And basically and it was it was 
clearly. 

769
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,040
Turned. 
Did not even. 

770
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,240
Do what happened yeah, Menu just
turned in on him and then after 

771
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,000
that incident, after that 
impact, Rydell then went up the 

772
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,280
inside and. 
That's right. 

773
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,640
Sort of finished it off, yeah. 
But yeah, yeah, I'd kind of 

774
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,880
forgotten. 
I was, I was about to say that 

775
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,400
Menu and Rivali had a run in 
early run in the year, but of 

776
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,880
course they there was that one 
and that definitely cost Ravali 

777
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,000
a podium if not a win and he had
actually driven brilliantly that

778
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,200
race. 
Yeah, because the car was going 

779
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,920
around there, wasn't it? 
There's Winkle up. 

780
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,520
Showed where he made it hard for
himself, but yeah. 

781
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,560
Obviously. 
So where did Rivali and Randa 

782
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:58,880
sit show? 
Because they had a few coming 

783
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,920
together, didn't they? 
But it it didn't it it peaked at

784
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,280
Juice the mat. 
Can you remember where it 

785
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,160
peaked? 
I'm pretty sure it's Brian 

786
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,400
Tatch. 
I can remember, that's right. 

787
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,840
I can remember the footage of 
Radicich being interviewed and 

788
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,560
saying you're going to have a 
word with him. 

789
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,640
That's right. 
Or possibly, and now can we come

790
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,960
and then it's. 
It's been 2 now and it's every 

791
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,880
time it's been you and me, you 
know? 

792
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,480
Otherwise, OK, you are 
disappointed but you have 

793
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,160
nothing to overdeck outside. 
I'm disappointed if you sit like

794
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:39,040
this or I'm disappointed because
all you can see to overtake me 

795
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,880
outside. 
But the best time I'm inside and

796
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,480
they go where I want. 
OK. 

797
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,400
But but I couldn't remember 
where it started either. 

798
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,960
I know that round one at 
Donington there was a battle 

799
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,000
between Radissitch and both 
BMWs. 

800
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,800
But it was Paul and Winkle Hock 
that came together. 

801
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,720
That's right, yeah. 
At the end of that one, but I 

802
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,120
can't remember where the 
Radicich Ravali thing started, 

803
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,000
but it definitely peaked at 
Brands Hatch. 

804
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,400
But there was the end. 
There was that incident where so

805
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,200
a brands, I think Radicich was 
on the outside. 

806
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,400
Then Ravali just drove him out, 
just literally just drove him 

807
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,600
off the track, didn't me. 
And and then you say, as you 

808
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,560
say, he said, are you going to 
have a word with him? 

809
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,480
Yeah, I might have a word with 
him. 

810
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,600
Can we come? 
Yeah. 

811
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,120
And so he's walking through the 
paddock and he catches up with 

812
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:36,880
with Roberto and Paul. 
Paul's calmly explaining away. 

813
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,000
Well, you know, Roberto, it's a 
couple of Times Now that the few

814
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,760
of us and Roberto just, he's in 
the face. 

815
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,400
And he just tells him basically,
I go where I want, OK? 

816
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,080
It's your fault you were on the 
outside. 

817
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,360
If I want to go there, I will go
there and I go where I want. 

818
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,040
OK. 
And looks at him in the most 

819
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:03,280
disrespectful way. 
Paul's face is just completely 

820
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,960
like, wow, what? 
Yeah. 

821
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,280
And then he just walks away. 
And then very wonderful. 

822
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:16,200
Thank you, Roberto, and goodbye.
I felt so sorry for Paul that 

823
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,920
that year, I mean, generally for
his time in the BCC, but that 

824
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,680
year and probably that moment, 
to be honest, you just wanted to

825
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,760
give him a hug, didn't you? 
Bless him, it was, you know, he 

826
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,720
especially after how good 93 was
you? 

827
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,320
Yeah, you sort of expected so 
much more from the combination. 

828
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,160
And then then that's what you 
ended up with. 

829
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,560
And I think, I think this 
Rivalius bat was kind of the 

830
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,200
cherry on the cake, really. 
There were a lot of there were a

831
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,200
lot of Duff Mondeaos through the
era, but that 96 one was the 

832
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,760
worst of the worst. 
And you would just be despondent

833
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,760
that that Ford should never have
been fighting a bit of the beat 

834
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,320
and he's managed it and then 
comes across. 

835
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,120
I go where I want. 
OK, Well, as Matt said that 

836
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,360
Darlington, the season opener, 
Paul and Vin Clark are fighting 

837
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,560
with each other. 
I mean, yeah. 

838
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,120
It should have been. 
Happening with 6th place, it's 

839
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,800
like what? 
Yeah, it was a dog. 

840
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,360
Yeah, yeah. 
Revalia, I think there's I've 

841
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,640
got I've got a piece of of of 
info about Rivalia which I will 

842
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:29,120
go to now whilst I'll let you 
guys carry on discussing and I 

843
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,560
will go to it because it is very
funny about how he just upset 

844
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:38,160
everyone that season. 
He had to go at ride earlier, he

845
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,680
had to go a menu. 
Let me go and find it. 

846
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,120
I've got it here now, on my, on 
my, on my. 

847
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,920
Rivalia he was he was ex 
motorcycle, wasn't he? 

848
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,840
Yes. 
A different braid took no shit. 

849
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:51,560
An old school wasn't He was, he 
was. 

850
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,280
He was around in the original 
World Championship here. 

851
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,600
Tough as old booze man he he's 
like this was like this was this

852
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:04,320
was like a breeze for him to it 
was safe his life wasn't at risk

853
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,520
every time he got in the car 
like it would have been through 

854
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,440
the motorcycle that he went 
through so. 

855
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,960
Everyone else's lives might have
been at risk. 

856
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:12,440
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

857
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:13,160
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

858
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,880
Yeah. 
It's like it's normal to him. 

859
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,400
It's like something like toughen
yourselves up land, you know? 

860
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,720
On his day though, he was bloody
quick, wasn't it? 

861
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,600
On his day, he will just mention
that that's Neston Drive and I'm

862
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,200
sure I'm right. 
I'm just going to very quickly 

863
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,520
check, but I'm sure that in 96 
he was only one point behind 

864
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,680
Winkle Hawk. 
Yeah, I think he was. 

865
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,440
The thing is with him as well, 
he wasn't really consistent 

866
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,080
because you didn't know whether 
there we could have a week, 

867
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,160
absolute nightmare of a weekend 
where he's getting involved in 

868
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,320
everything. 
But then there's another weekend

869
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,120
where he's really, really quick.
But like you didn't know when 

870
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:43,960
you were going to get the quick 
Rivalia. 

871
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,760
Like you didn't, you didn't know
you know Winkle, Ark and Soap. 

872
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,720
You have consistency and and, 
but with him you didn't know 

873
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,120
when you were going to. 
Get it? 

874
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,920
Right, one point behind Winkle 
Hawk, and Winkle Hawk was one 

875
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,320
point behind Leslie, so there's 
only two points away from being 

876
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,240
4th in 96. 
Wow, I've got the quotes. 

877
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,480
Do you want to hear them? 
Yes. 

878
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,920
So at Snetterton after the 
incident we just talked about 

879
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,080
after the race he asked why did 
Rydell need to wear a helmet 

880
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,960
when he clearly doesn't have a 
brain. 

881
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,800
Barked at Paul Radissick that he
goes where he wants after he 

882
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:28,000
punts him off at Brands Hatch 
and and then obviously with Alan

883
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,280
deliberately ignores blue flags.
Blocks menu on the last lap to 

884
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,200
try and help teammate cops win 
despite being a lap down. 

885
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,680
I mean, imagine he might have 
actually finished fourth in the 

886
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,120
championship had he not been 
Summers as pissing people off. 

887
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,200
I think that's the best astride 
Alex Net. 

888
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,640
And why did he need a helmet 
when he doesn't have a break? 

889
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,520
As insults go, that's as good as
it gets In it, it's. 

890
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,560
Mad, isn't it? 
It's crazy. 

891
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,120
I think what adds to the the 
lure of Roberto Ravallo and the 

892
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,960
BTCC as well as that much, much 
like Lauren, yeah, but in very 

893
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,120
different ways. 
He was one and done. 

894
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,840
He was there for a year, pissed 
everyone off and probably left. 

895
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,200
Yeah. 
Which I respect on a level. 

896
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,240
On the subject of clashes at 
Franzen, let's head back to 

897
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:26,360
1997. 
James Thompson and Jason Plato, 

898
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,600
who you know we come to blows in
other points in the future. 

899
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,800
But that is just the first time 
that their paths really crossed,

900
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,320
wasn't it? 
In a rivalry way. 

901
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:39,920
Yeah, I mean, they were, they 
were actually friends before 

902
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,680
this incident and they were, 
they were friends after. 

903
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,200
But yeah, yeah, this this 
weekend of brands, they wanted 

904
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,040
to kill each other. 
Yeah, you can never be friends 

905
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,080
on the track and I think I've 
experienced it where you can be 

906
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,800
mates off it, but once you start
racing against each other like 

907
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,800
that, all that all goes. 
Disappears. 

908
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:01,760
Yeah. 
Disappears. 

909
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,520
I think what happened with with 
their rivalry in a way is 

910
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,560
because they had such similar 
performing cars over a number of

911
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,440
years, then they were always 
near each other. 

912
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,200
And yeah, this this one at 
brands in 97 was kind of the 

913
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,680
catalyst for for what carried 
on. 

914
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,480
But they were they were always 
within one or two grid positions

915
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,400
of each other and one or two 
race positions of each other 

916
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,320
just because they had very 
similar performing cars. 

917
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,440
And, and I think both of them, I
guess there might have been an 

918
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,640
element of wanting to be top 
Brit because there was, you 

919
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,000
know, we did have did have a lot
of international talent. 

920
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,800
And maybe there was an element 
of trying to be top Brit because

921
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,680
some of the moves like this one 
brands, I haven't seen it for a 

922
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,400
little while, but off off 
memory, it was it was a bad. 

923
00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:00,400
Move and yeah, and Jason just 
clobbers him, doesn't he? 

924
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,640
Just dives. 
Dives at the inside of Thompson,

925
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:11,080
destroys the right hand side of 
the accord and basically has a 

926
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,000
It gives James a puncture that 
puts him in the wall. 

927
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:21,160
Which was it was never really. 
It's Jason for some reason was 

928
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:27,400
playing really hardball that 
weekend because in race one he'd

929
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:35,720
had an incident with David 
Leslie where a similar move. 

930
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:42,800
He, he, he sort of flies at the 
inside, clatters the side of the

931
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,200
Nissan. 
And then Leslie, there's a 

932
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:54,360
further contact and it puts, it 
puts Jason into the wall that 

933
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,920
that Nigel ended up in the year 
after that wall. 

934
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:06,200
He wasn't not renamed it. 
And so that was in the yeah, so,

935
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,000
and then there's that image 
where they're in car with with 

936
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:15,120
Jason in sat in the pit lane 
because he's got a damaged car. 

937
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,840
And Tommy was running down the 
pit lane and he's running 

938
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,440
towards Jason and he's pointing 
his finger and he's I'll have 

939
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,120
you, I'll have you. 
And all you can do is in the 

940
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,840
car. 
Is Jason going fuck off? 

941
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,640
It's the sort of thing you loved
as a tour, as a touring car fan 

942
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,160
with these little spats and. 
Yeah, yeah, pantomime of it. 

943
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:41,920
Yeah, yeah, pantomime villains. 
And the best thing is for those 

944
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,000
of you who might have read 
Jason's book, but after that 

945
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,600
race they were due to fly to a 
Grand Prix together. 

946
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,000
Very awkwardly. 
Very awkward fly. 

947
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,480
Brilliant. 
Brilliant, and if you haven't 

948
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,880
read Jason's book, it won't 
spoil the story, but it's very, 

949
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,680
very funny and I recommend it. 
Should we? 

950
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,560
Pivot a bit and talk about 
teammates not getting on because

951
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,960
we've had a fair share of that. 
There's a few. 

952
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,400
Going back to the beginning of 
the era, it's the lovely chat 

953
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,840
we're mentioning earlier Will 
Hoy, who did have a couple of 

954
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,600
run in Sydney in 1992 at Brand 
Hatch with Andy Rouse. 

955
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,400
I can't work out to this day, no
matter how many times I watch 

956
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,600
it, who I think is to blame for 
that, I think it's to complete. 

957
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:39,080
It's one of the rare occasions 
where it's genuinely 5050. 

958
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,840
And we can't even blame Nigel on
this one. 

959
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,400
We're going to have to come down
on a different side. 

960
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,760
I'll. 
Give it a try, I'll give it a 

961
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:48,480
try. 
It was. 

962
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,840
It was the thing. 
If you look at the if you look 

963
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,520
at the cold facts of it, it 
wasn't dirty driving is not how 

964
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:57,400
Will drove. 
Dirty driving is not how Andy 

965
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,840
drove. 
And clearly, especially being a 

966
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,000
boss and an employee, if you 
like, they would not have ever 

967
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:10,800
intended for that to happen. 
But it just really shouldn't 

968
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,560
have. 
Like you look, you look at the 

969
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,240
following year of Will and 
Bailey at Silverstone and that 

970
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:21,560
was just, you know, a lock up 
car out of control bang and it's

971
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,080
happened. 
But the the Will and Andy one 

972
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,480
really shouldn't have happened 
as far as I'm concerned. 

973
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,760
I totally agree. 
It it was very unfortunate. 

974
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:37,800
And the one thing that makes me 
laugh about that should it's and

975
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,480
Andy Rose's body language says 
rage and fury and he's just 

976
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:47,640
stood there just like this. 
It doesn't look very rage and 

977
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,400
fury to be honest, but yeah. 
I think obviously the the 

978
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,600
potential needle for there to be
with Hoi and Ralphs that year 

979
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,320
was of course that Hoi wasn't 
exactly given preferential 

980
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,280
treatment given that he was in a
title battle with the engines 

981
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:09,520
when it came to it, which 
probably irks Will a bit I would

982
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,240
imagine. 
Yeah, it probably hurt me as 

983
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:17,560
well, and a slightly unusual 
decision, but you know, it's 

984
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:26,200
yeah, I yeah, I don't know. 
It's it's an odd one, but I 

985
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,680
guess when your teammates, the 
team boss, it's hard to argue. 

986
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:30,800
Maybe. 
I don't know. 

987
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,240
Yeah, it's a difficult 
situation. 

988
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,600
Yeah, very difficult situation. 
You're right. 

989
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:42,080
Yeah, it's it's very tough, 
especially like, yeah, it's, 

990
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,880
it's just very odd. 
It's an unusual situation where 

991
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,440
a team principal, A-Team 
manager, A-Team owner also raced

992
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,160
one of the cars. 
Doesn't really happen now, does 

993
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,160
it? 
No, no. 

994
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,840
No. 
I still think that had team 

995
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,000
tactics or team orders played a 
bit differently, Will would have

996
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,480
been champion in 92. 
Yeah, reasonably easily. 

997
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,000
If this incident at Branson 
didn't happen, Will would have 

998
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,040
been champion, yes, yes, 
straight off. 

999
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,200
Then. 
Then you have the finale where 

1000
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,760
Will really needed to win and 
Andy won and I know there are a 

1001
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,200
couple of Vauxhalls involved 
between them, Alan and Leslie if

1002
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:20,720
I remember. 
Right. 

1003
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,240
Yes, that's right. 
But they they could have done 

1004
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,760
something that had got Hoy 
further up the order and then 

1005
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,560
used Rouse as a protection from 
Harvey Clelens open behind. 

1006
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,000
And you know, will there were a 
few opportunities, I think for 

1007
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,080
will to be championed that year.
And maybe it stemmed from this 

1008
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,440
incident of brands, but there 
was a there was team tactics or 

1009
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,760
team orders that didn't happen 
that prevented him from winning 

1010
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,320
the. 
Championship that strange 

1011
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,880
incident at Alton as well where 
Will's lead in twice and the 

1012
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,400
engine suddenly cuts out. 
And I'm not suggesting that that

1013
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,000
was a deliberate ploy by the 
way, but again, another 

1014
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,200
situation where had Hoy just had
a straight run. 

1015
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,680
Yeah, yeah, but you're right, 
there was such such a little 

1016
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:08,080
points gap between Will and Tim 
at the end of the season that 

1017
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,680
yeah, he only a handful of 
points and suddenly Will's the 

1018
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,840
first dude, He's the first 
double champion. 

1019
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,360
He's, you know, he's he's won 
the 1st 2 championships of the 

1020
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:21,440
era. 
So and then it's probably very 

1021
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,280
different because he probably 
ends up with even a possibly 

1022
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,880
different career path. 
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, how 

1023
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,880
all these things could snowball?
Work out, Yeah, because it's his

1024
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,400
career kind of 91 and 92 was as 
good as it got for Wilroy and he

1025
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,360
wasn't it he. 
Stayed with Toyota too long. 

1026
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:45,200
He was too loyal to Toyota. 3 
car wasn't bad, probably could 

1027
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:46,720
have won. 
Would have won a Silverstone if 

1028
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,200
it wasn't for for the incident 
which I'm sure we'll talk about 

1029
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,920
in a minute. 
But the 94 Toyotas were dog shit

1030
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,280
so. 
Yeah, let's talk about that 90, 

1031
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,680
for instance, because I think it
wasn't a great PR day. 

1032
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,680
So was it. 
No, because you know what 

1033
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,120
happened? 
It's the the worst thing 

1034
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,800
happened. 
They were 1-2, both were wiped 

1035
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,400
out. 
And what happens? 

1036
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,000
Their biggest rivals, Nissan, 
win 1/2. 

1037
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:21,480
Yeah, at the British Grand Prix 
with Marie Walker going the car 

1038
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,600
upside down is a Toyota. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1039
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,040
I was looking at the backbone 
that upside down. 

1040
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,840
As a team manager, as a 
manufacturer, things don't 

1041
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,120
really get much worse than that,
do they? 

1042
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,320
No. 
No, like I mean how? 

1043
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,800
Do we how do we see that 
incident? 

1044
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:42,920
It's it's clumsy at best, it. 
Just wasn't on at all, like in 

1045
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,680
front of a big crowd TV. 
Like it's almost like you want 

1046
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,840
to just walk straight to your 
car and just go because you just

1047
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:49,960
know you're going to get the 
sack, don't you? 

1048
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,600
Like that's just one of those 
moments. 

1049
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,320
You're just thinking, what have 
I done? 

1050
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,760
What have I done? 
There's a quote here from Julian

1051
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,920
from an interview from a few 
years after and it's my worst 

1052
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,440
moment in the championship was 
when we were leading one to 

1053
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,280
myself and my teammate Will Hoy 
at the British Grand Prix and I 

1054
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,320
took him off. 
He rolled it, one of us would 

1055
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,840
have won and then in the end a 
Nissan won instead. 

1056
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,000
So it didn't go down well with 
Toyota. 

1057
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,520
I got a serious bollock in for 
that one. 

1058
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,640
Toyota sent me a formal written 
warning and said they wouldn't 

1059
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:27,120
pay my wages for the spa 24 
hours a few weeks later. 

1060
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,640
So I said if I win the next BTCC
round will you pay me for spa? 

1061
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,800
They agreed. 
So I put it on pole for the next

1062
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,280
round of Knockhill and won it. 
Yeah, Bosch, there you go. 

1063
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:46,240
So that's that's, that's Julian 
looking back on it a few years 

1064
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:53,720
later. 
I think going back to teammates 

1065
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,080
along the lines of sort of 
making that impression as such, 

1066
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,520
there was someone who of course 
did make an immediate impression

1067
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,720
with a string of pole positions 
at the beginning of his career, 

1068
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,200
which was the aforementioned 
Jason. 

1069
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,280
Because maybe the race results 
didn't quite come at the 

1070
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,920
beginning part of the season, 
but of course they were coming 

1071
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,640
to the end. 
And that did lead to a bit of a 

1072
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:23,440
teammate spat in 97 when Jason, 
I think, had been talking to the

1073
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,600
press or just talking around the
paddock about how he'd seen he 

1074
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,280
felt he was getting quicker than
Alan, who'd already wrapped up 

1075
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,320
the championship by that point. 
I think Alan wrapped the 

1076
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,280
championship up at the same the 
very race that Plato took his 

1077
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:36,040
first win. 
Actually. 

1078
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:36,960
It's Nettleton. 
Yes. 

1079
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,760
Yeah, and then and then Jason 
was saying that he was getting 

1080
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:45,640
quicker than Alan and in, in 
Charlie Cox's words. 

1081
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,960
Oh, really? 
With with the I'll say 

1082
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,440
controversial, but it may not be
too controversial. 

1083
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,280
I'll say the controversial move 
at Silverstone. 

1084
01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:00,720
It was it was a hard pass, not 
one you'd probably expect on 

1085
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:06,280
your teammate who is fighting 
for second in the championship 

1086
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:10,480
against Beeler. 
And you think, OK, surely the 

1087
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,760
team are going to say, right, 
Alan, just stay behind Jason and

1088
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,960
and support him. 
You know, he's helped you win 

1089
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,640
the championship all year. 
We want to get a 12. 

1090
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:29,560
So could you hold station? 
But yeah, it's brutal from Alan,

1091
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,680
isn't it? 
It's he dives at the inside and 

1092
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:38,600
leaves, leaves him out to dry. 
He hangs him out to dry so that 

1093
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,200
not only did Jason lose first 
place, he loses second place. 

1094
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,840
So even if Jason had finished 
behind the land, that would have

1095
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,680
been enough for him to secure 
2nd place. 

1096
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:54,360
But because he'd left him out 
wide, Reedy got in, finished 2nd

1097
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:58,200
and denied Renault a 1-2 in the 
championship. 

1098
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,880
Renault, we're probably not best
pleased with that land for doing

1099
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,440
that. 
But really, Yeah. 

1100
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:09,360
And as Matt said, Charlie Cox's 
commentary of oh really? 

1101
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,280
Well, that puts the answer that 
puts that to bed sort of thing. 

1102
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,680
And of course, that would have 
started at the beginning of the 

1103
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,800
year because Alan would never 
have expected his rookie 

1104
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,880
teammate to come in, take double
pole at the first meeting, pole 

1105
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,120
again at Silverstone. 
You know, Alan would have 

1106
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:29,160
thought that probably gone into 
97 thinking the championship was

1107
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,760
basically going to be his. 
All he had to do was, yeah, keep

1108
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,080
it on the island and keep going.
The championship was his. 

1109
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,200
And then so at the very start of
the year, when his rookie 

1110
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,320
teammate is coming in and 
banging it on pole after pole 

1111
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:46,320
after pole, that must have set 
his head a little bit. 

1112
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,480
Obviously that would have 
changed as the season went on 

1113
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,880
was Alan went on that, you know,
the one almost everywhere. 

1114
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,560
But yeah, then by the end of the
season it had come back to haunt

1115
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,800
him again, I suppose. 
So what had happened at the 

1116
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:08,000
start of that season is that JP 
had been out testing somewhere 

1117
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,640
with his engineer and I think 
they basically worked out that 

1118
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,400
hard attire that the Michelin 
teams are providing. 

1119
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:21,080
The were providing the teams. 
There was one specific hard 

1120
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,360
attire that was actually quicker
than the soft. 

1121
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:30,680
So they didn't tell anyone this 
and JP took the first 3 pole 

1122
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,120
positions because of this, 
because they were using this 

1123
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,360
theoretically slow attire but 
ended up being quicker. 

1124
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,600
And in the fourth race, that's 
what happened is that they found

1125
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:45,040
out and Alan then used the same 
tires. 

1126
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:48,200
So there's a little bit of back 
story to that, which is which I 

1127
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:52,080
always found quite intriguing. 
Yeah. 

1128
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:58,000
So Jason would have just signed 
a new deal with Renault as well 

1129
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,320
after successful first year. 
So he probably thought, yeah, 

1130
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,920
I'm the, I'm the danglers for a 
bit. 

1131
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,720
But he soon had his lesson. 
He soon had his wings clipped, 

1132
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,680
didn't he? 
He soon had his wings clipped. 

1133
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,960
So. 
And Alan was quite happy to 

1134
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:17,840
resolve disagreements at on on 
on track at Silverstone in 

1135
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,600
season finales, wasn't he? 
Yeah, and it would be in 98 that

1136
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,240
Alan would also come to blows as
someone at Silverstone, this 

1137
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,520
time at the Abbey hair film with
John Cleland. 

1138
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,560
It's quite a forceful move that 
he bought on it, wasn't it? 

1139
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,880
I mean, John was was dearly 
facing down the Grand Prix track

1140
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:43,800
the wrong way. 
Alan Silverstone finale was the 

1141
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:50,880
final showing of my good friend 
Stroppy Alan that reared his 

1142
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,640
head a few times. 
In 98, Alan had already signed 

1143
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:59,120
for Ford. 
In 99, he knew it's time that 

1144
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,360
Williams was coming to an end. 
The car was falling in 

1145
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,320
competitiveness from the start 
of the year and he just got 

1146
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,960
extremely frustrated he'd had a 
falling out with. 

1147
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:16,280
So Renault gave Tommy Rushdad 
1/3 a third works Laguna for 

1148
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:21,040
that finale because he won the 
the Autosport Cup for privateers

1149
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:29,800
at Alton Park in a Laguna 
Rushdad at some point past Alan.

1150
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,440
Alan had us never on the scene. 
The script, no, was never the 

1151
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,680
script. 
Alan had a bit of a Strop about 

1152
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,640
that. 
Alan and Will Hoy had a bit of a

1153
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:50,440
set to at one point, which which
made me laugh at the time 

1154
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,240
because I remember Charlie Cox 
in Alan's looking at the car 

1155
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,040
he's going to be driving next 
year and he's going to hope it 

1156
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:03,840
that shell because wreck. 
And of course, ironically, Will 

1157
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,400
would have ended up in Allen's 
Reno obviously wouldn't didn't 

1158
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,600
do that at the time. 
But yeah. 

1159
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:16,080
And then the final the final 
straw was he was stuck behind 

1160
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:22,160
John Cleland and that enough and
just give him the two word at 

1161
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:26,920
the backside through Abby. 
And as you say, John was punted 

1162
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,000
well down the fairway and Alan 
carried on until he had a bit of

1163
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,560
a run in with Derek Warwick, 
which doesn't get picked up on 

1164
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:38,680
the on the commentary literally 
500 meters later. 

1165
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:44,800
Because honestly, if you if you 
watch that back now, you will 

1166
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:47,160
see it in the background. 
You'll see it on the side of 

1167
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:52,800
that happening and and yeah, so 
get on to the season review and 

1168
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:57,360
watch it because it's funny. 
And and they square up around 

1169
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,560
the back of the, of the, of the,
of the paddock. 

1170
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:03,800
So it is another, another one. 
And they had, they had to be 

1171
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:05,480
pulled apart by the team 
personnel. 

1172
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,520
So that shows what they're 
arguing was like. 

1173
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,160
That was all caught on Clellons 
and car camera, wasn't it? 

1174
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,480
It was. 
The car was angled perfectly at 

1175
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,200
the garage and it just showed it
all in front of them. 

1176
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:21,240
Barry Hinchcliff must have 
thought he'd struck gold when 

1177
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:22,520
he. 
Saw that. 

1178
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:30,880
So gentlemen, before we go, I'll
go by one by one round you now. 

1179
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,520
Favorite rivalry of a Super 
Touring era. 

1180
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,240
I'll start with you, producer 
Matt. 

1181
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,240
I mean, for, for me, it has to 
be the one that just seemed to 

1182
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,160
be the the most unfair in many 
ways, which was the Rivalia 

1183
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:49,080
Radisich 1. 
Like, you know, as we said 

1184
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,439
earlier, they should never 
really have been anywhere near 

1185
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,359
each other. 
You've got Rivalia who we said 

1186
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:56,720
was two points away from being 
4th in the championship. 

1187
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:58,720
Radisich was probably 10 places 
behind that. 

1188
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,640
They should never really have 
been near each other, but they 

1189
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,240
always managed to find each 
other. 

1190
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,600
And poor old Paul always seemed 
to come off worse and you just 

1191
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:08,800
wanted to put your arm around 
him. 

1192
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:11,120
Don't worry. 
Let's go. 

1193
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:12,439
Let's go for a drink. 
Don't worry. 

1194
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,560
So firmly not in the Roberta of 
Alia fan club then. 

1195
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:24,120
I didn't quite say that, but for
someone who was only in it for a

1196
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,960
year and a bit, he did have his,
he did have a spare show run 

1197
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:32,160
insurance, I think, yeah. 
Adam coming to you, what's your 

1198
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,880
favorite rivalry? 
For me within this era, and 

1199
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:37,840
obviously it wasn't, it didn't 
really go on for any length of 

1200
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:43,720
time, but I can't not, can't 
stop thinking about the the 

1201
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:52,279
Cleland Sopa, Silverstone 
because like it doesn't get like

1202
01:09:52,279 --> 01:09:54,600
hatred doesn't get him any worse
than that, does it? 

1203
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:58,200
At that time, you know, with the
pressures that was there, 

1204
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,560
everything on the line, 
everything was kicking off. 

1205
01:10:01,440 --> 01:10:03,960
We were, it was unlucky, lucky, 
I'm unlucky. 

1206
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,760
The fact that it ended up there 
because like, like Matt said 

1207
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,360
earlier, they've got a few 
months to think about the court 

1208
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:12,720
case and and sort of, you know, 
basically start talking to each 

1209
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:13,760
other again. 
They're both not won the 

1210
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,480
championship. 
Like let's just agree to 

1211
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:17,000
disagree and then we'll just 
crack on again. 

1212
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,600
But it would almost would have 
been nice that have happened 

1213
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:21,800
sort of during the season. 
So it could have continued. 

1214
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:26,440
But I think in terms of an 
absolute stand out moment that 

1215
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:28,920
we are still talking about to 
this day, as we've already 

1216
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,560
covered on the on the pod is 
that for me. 

1217
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,640
Yeah, certainly feels like one 
of the more iconic ones, even it

1218
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,920
didn't really root into a 
rivalry almost. 

1219
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,080
No, we sort of what he did 
behind the scenes that we all 

1220
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,800
didn't really hear much about 
until these, you know, these 

1221
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:49,160
recent times really. 
But in terms of seeing that, I 

1222
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,360
mean, that was proper lashing 
out. 

1223
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:56,320
You know, you look at what Steve
did to to to check on that. 

1224
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:01,680
That was as tough as rivalry 
gets to clearly have one thing 

1225
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,000
and one thing in his mind and 
that was to take him clean out 

1226
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,320
going into that right-hander. 
Yeah, he can't. 

1227
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:10,880
I can't not avoid that one, 
really. 

1228
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:15,160
And lastly, coming to you out, 
what's your favorite rivalry of 

1229
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:19,080
the year? 
So one we've not mentioned this 

1230
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:21,680
evening, it wasn't really a 
rivalry but there was a one off 

1231
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:23,880
incident. 
But I want to ask a question 

1232
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:28,320
that maybe some of the listeners
might be able to to answer. 

1233
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:33,760
And Silverstone 97 and Bin Cliff
and David Leslie have a bit of a

1234
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:41,160
set to going through the island 
chicane and both end up heavily 

1235
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:44,720
hitting the, the, the the Armco 
and getting damaged. 

1236
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:50,440
And you hear the iconic David 
Leslie, Bin Cliff's done it 

1237
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:56,880
again and the cars fucked. 
And I'm always wondering what's 

1238
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:02,480
the other incident? 
Is David referring to just Bin 

1239
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:06,480
Cliff having a few incidents 
generally, as in he's had 

1240
01:12:06,480 --> 01:12:11,400
another incident and and the 
cars or was there an incident in

1241
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,560
96? 
Because this was early in 97. 

1242
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:17,760
Was there an incident in 96? 
That's the between those two 

1243
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,640
that I can't think of. 
I can't think of one. 

1244
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:26,240
Yeah, but so if anyone wants to 
shine any light on that, then 

1245
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:32,360
please, please do so. 
But As for my favorite rivalry 

1246
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:38,080
in the Super Touring era, I 
think I've got to go with menu 

1247
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:43,640
and Cleland 2 drivers I liked, 
but I like I both, I like them 

1248
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:48,000
very, very much both. 
So seeing them square up in the 

1249
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,200
in the the back of the garage is
at Silverstone, it's quite 

1250
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:55,280
weird. 
But it was just funny. 

1251
01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:03,240
It's just really funny. 
Yeah, obviously there's a few. 

1252
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,760
Anthony Reed's annoyed everyone,
didn't he? 

1253
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:09,600
Another one we didn't really 
touch on was really in menu. 

1254
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:15,120
It's a Brands Hatch in 97 where 
live on telly all our menu is 

1255
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:21,360
saying the guy is crazy. 
You should think of it more live

1256
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:26,080
on TV to Steve Ryder without 
realizing that Anthony Reed is 

1257
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:31,800
stood right behind him just 
looking like this, which I 

1258
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:37,760
thought was quite funny. 
But yeah, any any into the end. 

1259
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,040
Any rivalry that involved John 
Cleland really, because he 

1260
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:43,480
always came out with some pretty
good one liners. 

1261
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:48,320
But if anyone has any info on 
that Bing Cliff and David Leslie

1262
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:52,960
incident then what he's 
referring to then please let us 

1263
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,760
know. 
And if you do have any other 

1264
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:59,320
questions for the Potter subject
that we might want us to touch 

1265
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:03,000
on in the future, such as 
today's discussion on rivalries.

1266
01:14:03,480 --> 01:14:06,960
And also if you do have an 
answer to Alex's query about 

1267
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,280
David Leslie referring to Bing 
Cliff, again, e-mail as always, 

1268
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:16,760
pod at 1990s btcc.com. 
In the meantime, we'll see you 

1269
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,120
next week. 
Goodbye.