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Stories from Super Touring. 
Hello, and welcome to a brand 

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new series of stories from Super
Touring. 

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And we're kicking off Series 7 
with an absolute legend of 

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touring car racing man whose 
name is synonymous with speed, 

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precision and a little bit of 
controversy along the way. 

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From his iconic battles in the 
BTCC to his unforgettable 

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showdowns across Europe, Japan 
and beyond, our guest today has 

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done it all. 
He's race for the biggest 

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manufacturers, gone wheel to 
wheel with the very best, and 

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left a mark on motorsport that 
still gets us fans talking 

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decades later. 
It's Steve Sopa. 

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Steve, welcome to Stories from 
Super Touring. 

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Thank you for opening Series 7 
for us. 

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How are you? 
Yeah, I'm good. 

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Good evening to you. 
So Steve, let's start at the 

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very beginning. 
How did you first get into 

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motorsport? 
What was it that sparked that 

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first passion for racing for 
you? 

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I think it was my father 
probably as a kid I was dragged 

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to race meetings. 
He did a bit of rallying and 

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sprints and the odd race but 
very club level sort of 

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standards. 
But as at 8910 year old, I was 

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pulled off to Crystal Palace and
Silverstone, which I quite 

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enjoy. 
When I say pulled off, it sounds

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as though I was dragged there 
against my will. 

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I certainly wasn't I enjoyed, 
but that was it was bred into 

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me, I suppose, educated into me.
He was a car fanatic, had all 

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sorts of nice cars, Jaguars and 
Lotus, Cortinas and Lotus. 

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He lands. 
So from an early, early part of 

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my life, it was, it was their 
motorsport. 

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He actually let me start racing 
or competing, not racing at 

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about an age of 13. 
I was, we he were members of the

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Harold Carr Club and we used to 
turn up and do altar tests and 

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sort of what are they called 
slaloms between poles against 

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the stopwatch and stuff. 
And I used to use his race 

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licence to do that and the how 
they all sort of just turned a 

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blind eye and sort of just let 
me get on with it at 1314 years 

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of age. 
So that that was the 

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introduction, I suppose. 
Well, it was always drilled into

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me by him that, you know, just 
do it as a bit of fun. 

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You know, you're not going to be
able to make a living at it. 

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You're not going to become a 
professional. 

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Just enjoy yourself. 
And that was drummed into me 

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from a fairly early age, which 
probably made me even more 

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determined. 
When your dad's telling you 

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that, then you try and do the 
opposite. 

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It was very progressive over a 
number of years. 

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First of all, I started in 
special saloon cars and couldn't

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really afford to do what 
everyone else was doing 

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regarding what they were 
spending on their engines. 

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And so I went from sort of 
trying to do that with Hillman 

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Imps and Minis and I decided to 
do 1 mate championships and then

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I picked one mate championships 
with first they had to be a new 

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championship that just started 
and secondly I wanted a prize at

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the end of the championship if I
could win. 

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So I picked championships. 
Then at the time you, if I won 

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the Mini championship, you won a
new 1275 GT Mini and the same 

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with the Fiesta championship, 
you won a new Fiesta, whatever 

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it was at the time, and then the
Metro and suddenly I realised I 

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could win these championships 
and by winning cars that would 

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pay for my next year's motor 
racing and all. 

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I would never look at entering 
the Renault 5 Championship 

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because that had been running 
for years and it took you ages 

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to find all the tweaks that 
everyone found over the years. 

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But if you entered a new 
championship, then I've I felt I

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was smarter than most of the 
others that I was competing 

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against and I could get my car 
more competitive than they could

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in a brand new championship 
quicker than they could. 

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And that seemed to work with the
Minis, the Fiesta and then the 

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Metro off. 
The back of that then with 

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winning the Metro in Challenge 
in 1981, you then moved into 

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what was then the British Salim 
Car Championship and then in 

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1983 you're then signed by Tom 
Walkinshaw and you have a 

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brilliant year and win the 
title. 

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Before we get into perhaps what 
happened off track after you won

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the title. 
So how was that in terms of, as 

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you say, you know, you've been 
in these one mate series, the 

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new series to try and sort of, 
you know, level out the 

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experience and you choose your 
ability of chewing a car and 

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getting on pace and your driving
style. 

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How do you think you were able 
to so quickly find success in 

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the British Touring Car 
Championship so quickly against 

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teams that had a probably a lot 
more experience in finding those

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little tweaks than than you 
would have done at that point? 

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Motor racing is back then was 
always been in the right place 

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at the right time and then bits 
of luck and putting things 

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together and two things happened
back in the 81. 

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First of all, I found a sponsor 
that was Hepalite Glacium, 

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Hepalite Pistons and, and the 
first year in Minis I think or 

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metros, I got £500. 
And the second year in Group one

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in again with metro in 82, I got
25,000. 

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And then eventually the third 
year with the Rover business 

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that I had their whole budget. 
Now that sponsor was Austin 

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Rover's sponsor, but they became
a bit disillusioned with Austin 

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Rover. 
And bear in mind at this time I 

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was buying and selling cars. 
So basically I'm a motor dealer.

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So if there's a deal out there, 
I was going to do my utmost to 

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make sure I could get the deal 
and the, the final year, which I

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think was 120,000, I, I could 
steer that money wherever I 

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wanted it to go. 
And we did look at running the 

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BMW and then eventually we went 
back to Austin Rover and we felt

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we were, I suppose better off 
knowing more what was happening 

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to go with Austin Rover with a 
Rover vertet. 

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So the background of all of that
was starting off with £500, then

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25,000 and 120,000. 
That was being in the right 

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place and talking to the right 
people in the right time, 

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understanding they were getting 
a little bit disillusioned and 

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they because I was successful, 
they were prepared to put their 

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money behind me. 
That was the only sponsor I ever

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really landed in my whole 
career, but it did springboard 

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me into group, Group A, racing, 
etcetera. 

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Also, Austin Rover wanted to 
promote a driver that won the 

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Metro Championship. 
So they were quite happy at the 

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end of 81 to give me a little 
tiny bit of help to go group 

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Group 1 racing. 
So again, it was being in the 

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right place within the 
championship at the right time 

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and then sticking my ears to the
ground and trying to understand 

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what Austin Rover wanted and 
what I wanted and trying to pull

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P SAT together. 
So you when we got to the drive,

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I was never employed by Tom 
walking Shaw. 

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I was employed by Austin Rover, 
Tom walking Shaw and I didn't 

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really get on. 
He he inherited me and I didn't 

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understand politics back then. 
I was this sort of, you know, 

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arrogant young racing driver 
that thought he couldn't, you 

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know, do anything. 
And of course that clashed with 

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the the sort of internal 
politics or TWR, but I was 

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employed by Ossin and Roble and 
they were very good to me. 

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So that's the background of of 
that getting making the car 

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work. 
I'd driven rear wheel drive 

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cars. 
I'd driven an X1 Niner mid 

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engine thing and I drew I'd race
special saloon escorts and the 

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Ilbanemps as well as front door.
So it didn't seem, it seemed 

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relatively easy when once I got 
in that Rover, it nothing seemed

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to be, you know, a problem. 
It all came relatively easy. 

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And I always used to say to 
friends and the media, I don't 

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think I'm that good. 
But if I'm in the lead making 

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mistake after mistake at this 
corner, on that corner, but I 

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look in my mirror and I'm 
drawing away from everyone, I 

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might not be that good, but the 
rest are useless. 

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And that's still my, my opinion 
and my thinking even today, You 

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know, I, I'm sure back then and 
even currently there's far more 

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talent sitting in the grandstand
which haven't been given an 

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opportunity than there is on the
race track. 

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That's my that's my my view and 
my opinion. 

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It's an interesting view of 
that. 

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I mean that that Rover, the, the
Vitas, the absolute beasts were 

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there. 
I mean, what were they like to 

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drive? 
Horrible. 

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Oh, really? 
OK, horrible. 

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OK, heavy, heavy, not you know, 
it was never designed to be a 

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race car and at the day I was 
never a fan of the Austin Rover,

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the moist product. 
You know, I I thought the road 

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cars were pretty dire, let alone
a racing Rover the test. 

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But walking shore TWR made it do
a job and it was competitive in 

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BTC. 
It was competitive in Europe but

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it wasn't and you know, it went 
round a race track and it won 

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races but it wasn't a nice thing
to drive at all. 

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OK. 
So you obviously did win the 

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title on the track. 
It's in 1983 with that car. 

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However, I believe it was about 
six months after it was taken 

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from you due to irregularities. 
I mean, what, what? 

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What was all that about? 
Well, basically Tom used to 

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irritate everybody, especially 
the sort of scrutineers and the 

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RAC and he, Frank Sittner drove 
for him and he fired Frank 

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Sittner. 
So Frank Sittner had a a grudge 

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to bear. 
And as the year went on, Frank 

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Sittner and the RAC kept trying 
to find things that were wrong 

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with the Rover. 
And I'm sure there probably were

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things wrong with the Rover, but
they couldn't make anything 

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stick. 
And then finally at the end of 

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the season, they together with 
the RACI think with a protest 

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from Frank Sitner, if I'm right,
they stripped and the my engine 

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down and they couldn't find 
anything wrong with it apart 

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from a tappet. 
And the Rover engines back then 

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ran hydraulic tappets and purely
to make it more serviceable, 

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they had modified that hydraulic
tappet and they put a Volvo tap 

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it in there, which was 
adjustable because that wasn't 

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legal, didn't give you any more 
performance. 

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It just made it easier to 
service and maintain. 

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But it wasn't to the rule book. 
And eventually they, they went 

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after Tom and they got him on 
that. 

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And six months later I lost the 
the championship, which at the 

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time I couldn't care less about.
But years later, you, you look 

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back and think that would have 
been nice to actually have that 

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that on the in the history books
at the time, it wasn't forward. 

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OK, Interesting. 
Because others, other drivers 

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we've spoken to in the past, I 
know we've spoken to Anthony 

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Reed about this, about him 
possibly losing out on a title 

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because it dropped scores and it
meant it meant everything to him

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then, but now it doesn't. 
So it's interesting that with 

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you it's the reverse. 
Yeah, cheers. 

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Moving a bit further into the 
80s now then and you joined 

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Eggenberger? 
In. 

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Ford in 1986 set you up to drive
some pretty iconic cars, 

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including the, the Cosworth. 
And then also, you know, you 

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were racing really at the 
forefront of touring car racing 

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00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,320
globally at that point in, in 
DTM World Touring Cars 

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championship in, in 87 for the 
Sony season of its first first 

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iteration and then in in 
European touring cars for three 

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years with them as well. 
How how did that deal come about

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and how was it sort of getting 
to drive all of these world 

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famous circuits sort of 
seemingly we can leak out? 

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Well, the the the deal came 
about quite quite. 

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What's the word? 
Unusual, I suppose, because in 

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83 with the Rover, BMW sent hand
stock over to England to do some

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BTC races in a in a BMW635 and I
used to beat him. 

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I can't remember how many times 
he beat me or how many times I 

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beat him, but I think I beat him
more times than he beat me. 

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And he obviously went back to 
BMW Germany, Munich, BMW 

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Motorsport, and probably they 
were asking him why he didn't 

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win. 
And he was obviously saying that

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this guy, Steve Sopa is a bit 
special and he's really good on 

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it. 
So he boosted my profile and at 

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the end of 83 BMW offered me a 
very, very nice contract to join

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them at the end for the 84 
season and rightly wrongly, I 

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told Austin Rover this and they 
convinced me to stay for the 84 

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and 85 seasons. 
They matched everything BMW 

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offered me financially and they 
offered me a longer contract. 

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When the those next two years 
spanned out with the Rover in 

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Europe, I was not a happy person
there. 

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I was not. 
I was still learning 

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politically, politics, but I 
wasn't allowed to do or drive as

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00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,720
I wanted. 
I was controlled by the TWR team

224
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,280
and group. 
So at the end of 85 I as soon as

225
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,640
I could leave, my contract was 
up. 

226
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,240
I terminated it and gave them 
notice that I wouldn't be 

227
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:11,280
staying on for 86 and I started 
talks again with BMW which 

228
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:18,520
started to look very positive. 
And then round about December it

229
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,119
all went quiet. 
There was no communication at 

230
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,440
all. 
And although I knew it was 

231
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,160
Christmas, if you're looking for
your job and your next season, 

232
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,720
you, you start panicking the, 
the, they weren't answering the 

233
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,360
phone. 
They weren't answering it. 

234
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,400
You know, I think it was faxes 
back then and stuff like that. 

235
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,960
And round about that time Ford 
Germany came on the phone and 

236
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,760
basically he said, would I be 
interested in driving for them 

237
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,960
with the Sierra Cosworth for 87 
and 88? 

238
00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,320
But for the 86 season it was the
Ford Merco, which wasn't a great

239
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,000
car. 
So I said, well, Pavani, you 

240
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,120
give me a three-year contract. 
So I'm around for the Cosworth, 

241
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:12,840
yes. 
And and that's how I ended up at

242
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,280
Ford. 
Ford was great. 

243
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,840
It was a great. 
The guy that ran it at the time 

244
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,840
was a good guy. 
It was Eggenberger was tricky, 

245
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:31,080
but he built a fantastic car. 
The car was pretty bulletproof. 

246
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,760
It very rarely went wrong, 
engine or anything else. 

247
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,480
And we did a world world 
championship that, you know, we 

248
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,400
travelled around the world, 
Australia, Japan, New Zealand, 

249
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,960
everywhere. 
So it was all of a sudden, I 

250
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,840
mean at the time I didn't 
appreciate it, but you know, 

251
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,960
years on you look back and it 
was great learning the circuits.

252
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,120
You just get on with it and you 
do it. 

253
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:03,840
There wasn't the data that you 
couldn't, you know, there was no

254
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,040
Sims or data that I couldn't 
look at my team mates what they 

255
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,200
were doing. 
I just had to do it the hard way

256
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,640
and get to the circuit early, 
walk around it, get a rink car, 

257
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,280
you know, try and sneak onto the
circuit before the weekend had 

258
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,240
started and and just get on with
it, which luckily I managed to 

259
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,440
do. 
You intertwined that well 

260
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,960
fantastic journey all over the 
world effectively with sporadic 

261
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,600
BTCC appearances. 
Certainly one that sticks in in 

262
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,840
the memory is Brands Hatch in 
1988 where you had that famous 

263
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:48,480
battle with another excellent 
car builder in Andy Rouse and 

264
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,880
that that is still famous to 
this day. 

265
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,200
I mean, that was a great battle 
that you and Andy had in, in 

266
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,720
what were, I mean, people didn't
know this, but what were quite 

267
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,240
different Sierras? 
Yeah. 

268
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,360
I mean, the Eggenberger car was 
a long distance. 

269
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,000
You know, all our ETC and world 
races that we had done in 87 and

270
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,080
88 were all three hours, 24 
hours. 

271
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,480
They were all long endurance 
races. 

272
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:23,480
And the, the interesting thing 
is Ford put AAI don't know what 

273
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,520
you would call it, a promotional
thing out there and said anybody

274
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,960
who wins the race with a Ford, 
there's a £5000 bonus. 

275
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,800
So, you know, I went Ching Ching
and I had to then persuade 

276
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,160
Egenberger to come over to 
England. 

277
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,960
I didn't tell Egenberger there 
was any, any prize money because

278
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,400
it was paid to the driver, not 
to the team. 

279
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:57,280
So I managed to persuade him and
for Germany, let's do 3 or 4U KB

280
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,560
TC races. 
And they agreed. 

281
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,680
And but I was, I was with, you 
know, I think the first race I 

282
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:15,560
did, I think my engine had 
already done 3, three races, 3 

283
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,400
long distance races. 
And Egenberger wouldn't turn the

284
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,680
boost up because we'd run higher
boost to begin with in the 

285
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,280
beginning of the season. 
And he had just, you know, half 

286
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,520
the life of his engines. 
And in Europe or the the World 

287
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,000
Series, we didn't need any more 
boost because we were winning 

288
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,400
with what we we had. 
But the the other interesting 

289
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,320
thing behind that story, 
obviously I wanted to do it and 

290
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:53,600
I convinced him to come over. 
But Andy Rouse had touted for 

291
00:21:53,600 --> 00:22:00,040
that deal. 
So that World Touring Car 

292
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,320
Championship that for Germany 
were painful. 

293
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,360
He tended for it and he hadn't 
got it and he felt that what 

294
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,960
he'd done in England, he should 
have got it. 

295
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,680
So there was a lot of sort of 
under undercurrent. 

296
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:25,560
I wouldn't say bitterness, but a
bit, a bit of needle. 

297
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,960
Yeah. 
Envy, envious or jealousy. 

298
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,400
I don't think Andy, I know Andy 
quite well. 

299
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,120
I don't think Andy was bitter at
all. 

300
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:38,000
But he was definitely out to 
prove a point. 

301
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,600
Yeah, we turn up. 
This is the racing driver book 

302
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,360
of excuses you got to realise. 
So we turn up with a two or 

303
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:53,160
three race old long distance 
engine and try and compete with 

304
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,880
Andy that's just built himself 
the most powerful Sierra 

305
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,600
Cosworth engine that he's ever 
built to make sure that he wins.

306
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,400
And it was a little bit like 
that. 

307
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,600
I think we did 4 races in 
England and I think I only won 

308
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,840
one of them to my memory. 
I think he won three. 

309
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,360
I won the one at Pruxton and 
then the the other two or three 

310
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:22,360
he won. 
So, but there's always, there's 

311
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,400
always something going on in the
background that not everybody 

312
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:31,520
knows, if that makes sense. 
Then for 1989, you move to BMW. 

313
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,400
So after obviously nearly moving
there a couple of times, you 

314
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,760
make that move and initially 
with the Zaxby's team, with your

315
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,520
main role being in in Germany in
the DTM where you won races. 

316
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,840
How was that that year in sort 
of adjusting to BMW in a 

317
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,760
different, different car to the 
to the sea era? 

318
00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:01,240
Well, again, it it sounds like 
you know BMW head 100 me away 

319
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,320
from Ford. 
That's not how it happens. 

320
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:11,600
So at the end of 88 my German 
boss said look I've I've lost 

321
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,720
all my budget for next year. 
I've only got enough money to 

322
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,920
run 2 cars in DTM and I've got 
to run MY2 German drivers. 

323
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,120
Klaus needs space and Klaus Ludz
bit. 

324
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:27,560
I want to keep you, but I don't 
have any money. 

325
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:33,640
If I if I find more budget to 
run a third car and a third 

326
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,280
team, then sure, you're you're 
my priority. 

327
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,320
But right now, if you get 
offered anything, take it. 

328
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:47,600
So again, I immediately started 
communicating again with BMW. 

329
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:53,640
The the boss of BMW motorsport 
had just changed and it was a 

330
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,120
new guy called Carla Hines 
cabfill. 

331
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:02,480
So he joined and within a week 
of him sitting in his office 

332
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,800
taking over BMW Mother Sport, I 
rang him and cut a Long story 

333
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,560
short. 
He didn't know who I was but the

334
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,280
people around him did and I was 
able to join there. 

335
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,680
But I wanted to go to Snitzer 
and obviously all I was offered 

336
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:29,760
was at the time was Zak Speed 
and the joining BMW was very 

337
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,920
easy. 
Joining another German company 

338
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,720
was a doddle. 
I, I was little bit frustrated 

339
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,840
with Zac Speed because it 
didn't, it didn't live up to my 

340
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,920
expectations or what I thought 
it should do. 

341
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:53,840
So I was always frustrated and 
quite demanding on them. 

342
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,440
But you know, I want to cut the 
races in DTM to be fair to them.

343
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,000
And Eric Sukowski and the team 
manager at the time, Gunter 

344
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,280
Waldo, were were very 
accommodating. 

345
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,240
But it just at the time it 
wasn't a snitch. 

346
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,560
So it wasn't the same maternity 
as a snitcher team. 

347
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,720
You spent one year with Zach 
Speed and as you were saying you

348
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,600
were, you were trying to get 
into Schnitzer, but you ended up

349
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,120
for a couple of years with 
Begatsi. 

350
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,920
Similar, I mean obviously still 
BMW, but a similar vibe or a 

351
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,320
different vibe to Zach Speed 
there. 

352
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,120
And the end of 89 and I said to 
BMW, look, I, I, I, I want to 

353
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,360
go, I have to go to Snitzer. 
And they said, look, we got 4 

354
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,920
drivers that want to go to 
Snitzer and only two cars. 

355
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,680
And actually if you want to go, 
we got 5 drivers and only two 

356
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,320
cars. 
So that's not going to happen. 

357
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,200
They said, you know what about 
Linda? 

358
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,040
I said no, no, no, there's no 
way I want to go to Linda. 

359
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,880
And they said I don't want to 
stay at Zach Speed. 

360
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,480
And then my current new boss at 
the time, obviously it wasn't, 

361
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,560
you know, I've been with there 
over a year. 

362
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:14,680
He said what what about Bugatti?
And I'd met Gabrielle Raffinelli

363
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,320
when we were doing the World 
Touring Car Championship. 

364
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,200
He was running BMWs. 
He was a factory driver back 

365
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,680
then, not driver team back then.
And that's when I met him and we

366
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,640
got on like a house on fire. 
And he glossed that status. 

367
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,040
And he, when my boss said to me,
what about Begatsi? 

368
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,480
He wasn't a factory team. 
And I said, yeah, I'll drive for

369
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,600
them because I just knew them in
mentality. 

370
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,520
Or Raffanelli. 
No, it wasn't a snitzer. 

371
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:53,400
It was a completely different 
team outlook. 

372
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,720
The way they went racing was 
completely different to 

373
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,600
Schnitzer, but it was a good 
team that would give you 

374
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,240
everything that you required 
without any sort of dramas along

375
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,160
the way. 
So I they ended up making 

376
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:18,720
Bugatti another factory team. 
And I I joined Bugatti in 1990. 

377
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,280
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

378
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,080
And you did. 
If you did, you did DTM but also

379
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,800
sporadically did a couple of 
BTCC rounds in the what was to 

380
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,680
become the two litre formula. 
The the, the eventually become 

381
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,160
the Super towing formula. 
Those cars must have been very 

382
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,120
different to the DTN cars and 
the Cosworths and the RS5 

383
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,160
hundreds that you've been used 
to driving. 

384
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,920
They they were, but it, you 
know, after a lap, it's a racing

385
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,120
car and you just drive it as you
know, you try and drive it as 

386
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,120
quickly as you can with the 
amount of grip and everything 

387
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,200
you've got. 
So I never really had to 

388
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,680
concentrate. 
Oh, this is this is a DTM car. 

389
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,160
This is a BTC car. 
This has more a bit more error 

390
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,080
than this. 
It, it was all relatively easy. 

391
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,920
It didn't seem to cause me any 
problems at all. 

392
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,280
Jumping from one to the other. 
Yeah. 

393
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,840
Yeah, it's, it brings me on to 
another point actually is that 

394
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,600
you obviously did a lot of these
part seasons, particularly in 

395
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Britain where you would come 
over and do a couple of races 

396
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,040
and then either Christmas in or 
Rivalia would come and and and 

397
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200
and take your seat. 
Did you have any say at all 

398
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320
about which championships you 
wanted a racing or was it very 

399
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,000
much BMW want you to do this 
championship and that's where 

400
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,160
you're going to be and that's 
your focus? 

401
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:58,960
BM back in the 198919919293 I 
had no say in it. 

402
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:07,080
They said you're doing DTM and 
then I had to then start making 

403
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:14,440
waves and negotiating if I could
have on when races didn't clash 

404
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,560
with my DTM programme, could I 
drive, Would they allow me to 

405
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:24,600
drive for, you know, the pro 
drive team or whichever team it 

406
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,160
was? 
And they they were quite 

407
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,720
comfortable at letting me do 
that. 

408
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,600
So, and I think back then I was 
paid a salary per race. 

409
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,080
So the more races I did the more
money I earned. 

410
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,800
So it, it sort of worked and and
I was quite, I quite enjoyed 

411
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,560
back in the early 90s doing 345 
races in in England. 

412
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,800
I didn't want to do a complete 
championship of BTCI, enjoyed 

413
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,920
DTM too much, but I was quite 
happy on my weekends off to turn

414
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,280
up in in England and driver Pro 
Drive or whoever. 

415
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,000
Yeah, in, in, in 92. 
Then you, you ended up driving 

416
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,600
the new BMW 318 and that at the 
start of the year was it was 

417
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:27,080
quite an uncompetitive car. 
But when we, when we had Tim on 

418
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,120
the show, he said that you guys 
had solved the issue, something 

419
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,080
to do with the flexing 
suspension arm that the pro 

420
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,840
drive guys hadn't been able to 
fix. 

421
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,680
And basically that turned that 
car into an absolute rocket. 

422
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,560
And there were some particularly
wonderful drives, I thought from

423
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,640
you in 92 where you got caught 
up in, invariably you seem to 

424
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,560
get caught up in, in someone 
else's accident and ended up 

425
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,720
fighting your way through the 
field that year. 

426
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,120
Fond memories of of some battles
in 92. 

427
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Yes, don't quite go along with 
Tim's analysis. 

428
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:14,560
The the the car was we were 
allowed to run that car by BMW 

429
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:20,120
Germany's. 
So we started to develop it a 

430
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:26,600
year earlier than Germany and we
were given help from Germany 

431
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:35,360
from they would send engineers 
over, they would guide VLR in 

432
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,280
certain areas. 
And the car, the car just got 

433
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,680
better and better as we 
understood it more and more. 

434
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,760
So the, the, the car at the 
beginning wasn't a great race 

435
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,240
car. 
And once once we got the right 

436
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,840
engine in it and we'd sorted a 
few things internally and with a

437
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,000
bit of BMW Motorsports help, 
then the car got better and 

438
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,840
better and better. 
And you have to also remember 

439
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,280
that in that year we had ABS and
nobody else had ABS. 

440
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,880
So the, that was a huge 
advantage back then, especially 

441
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,720
with a sort of rear wheel drive 
car. 

442
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:30,160
So all things put together, the 
car, the car did sort of turn a 

443
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,080
corner and midway through the 
season, but I don't remember any

444
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,760
sort of flexing, steering on. 
I don't know where that's come 

445
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,280
from. 
And I, I did a lot more work 

446
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,000
than Tim did. 
But I'm not saying I'm right and

447
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,440
he's wrong. 
I'm not normally wrong. 

448
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,560
We can't really talk about 1992 
without bringing up that 

449
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,400
dramatic Silverstone finale from
inside the car. 

450
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,000
What was going through your mind
in those final laps and how did 

451
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,000
you feel about the fallout that 
came afterwards? 

452
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,600
I think the the problem is that 
weekend there was no other modus

453
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,840
war, so there was no Formula 
One, there was no ward rally and

454
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,800
there was no other big British 
events. 

455
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:27,000
So after the the incident, 
Autosport Motoring News and 

456
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,040
every other Tom, Dick and Harry,
all they could write about was 

457
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:35,960
this incident. 
And I, you know, I was in, I was

458
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:42,440
employed to help team win that 
championship, but not at the 

459
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,880
cost of eliminating John Glenn. 
And it was never, ever 

460
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,760
suggested, you know, Tim needs 
to win at all costs. 

461
00:34:52,840 --> 00:35:02,200
It wasn't the situation if I 
could go there and spoil John's 

462
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,480
race weekend just by being there
and help team win that. 

463
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:14,040
That was my job. 
Unfortunately, the the late 

464
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:20,800
David Leslie, who I respected a 
lot as a driver, he was driving 

465
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,280
a Vauxhall and he he wiped me 
out on the first lap. 

466
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:33,960
Maybe, maybe I was being a 
little bit foolish with him. 

467
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,280
I should have known better that 
he wouldn't stand for some of my

468
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,480
that the move that I was trying 
to pull on him. 

469
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,000
But he took no prisoners. 
And next thing I know I was 

470
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,880
facing a wrong way. 
And then Rob grab it comes round

471
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,520
and drives into the back of me. 
So I'm already programmed that a

472
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,160
Vauxhall has eliminated me, 
which isn't great. 

473
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,920
I then, I then got from the back
of the grid back up to John and 

474
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:09,000
John was in front of Tim and Tim
was behind John and I, what does

475
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,520
I still think one of my best 
moves I managed to, I think it 

476
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,520
was sort of coming out of Abby 
and maybe down under bridge. 

477
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,440
I, I did a lovely move and I, I 
managed to slow John up so that 

478
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:31,240
Tim went past John and myself at
the time and got into a 

479
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,720
championship position. 
So I thought, yeah, that's good,

480
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,840
well done. 
I was quite happy with myself 2 

481
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,480
two corners later, John then 
carries a move out on me that if

482
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,400
I hadn't have been there he 
would have apart from falling, 

483
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,720
the car would have fallen over 
but he also wouldn't have made 

484
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:56,840
the corner. 
So that's I'm now thinking hang 

485
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,640
on a minute, this is this is 
sort of Vauxhall. 

486
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:05,000
Vauxhall taking the Mick. 
What's going on now, to be fair 

487
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,440
to John, in that sort of two 
wheels stump that he pulled, he 

488
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,320
lost his driver's door mirror. 
So he's now got no door mirror 

489
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,200
on his right side and he 
believes I'm gone. 

490
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,520
He believes I'm off the track, 
sailing across the grass. 

491
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,520
So I was off the track and on 
the grass but I was facing the 

492
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,680
right way. 
So I, I came back at him 

493
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,160
believing he knew I was still 
around. 

494
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,440
Hindsight, you know, years 
later, even a few weeks later, I

495
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,960
realised it. 
He didn't know I was there and 

496
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,280
he turned in with an 
uncompromised line, believing I 

497
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,640
wasn't there in. 
At the same time, I've turned in

498
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,480
with no compromise, being a 
little bit frustrated of what 

499
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,800
he's just done and that the two 
moves ended in us both going off

500
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,360
the track. 
If I'd wanted to eliminate 

501
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:13,080
tom-tom, if I wanted to 
eliminate John rather, I could 

502
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,120
have done it and I could have 
still probably finished on the 

503
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,640
podium or in the top three or 
four. 

504
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:24,480
I'd certainly wasn't there to 
take John off and myself off. 

505
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,960
So it wasn't an intentional 
move. 

506
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:35,400
If if you want to point the 
blame at someone more than I'm 

507
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:41,520
probably more to blame than 
John, but John did his paid his 

508
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,240
share of the the incident if 
that makes sense. 

509
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,960
Yeah, and that that ended up in 
a in, in a, in a battle in the 

510
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:56,600
court, which John has told us 
effectively was stopped because 

511
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,160
you 2 ended up chatting on the 
phone and going in and saying we

512
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,400
were both guilty. 
They didn't want to take 

513
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,480
anyone's life. 
You didn't want any either of 

514
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,760
you to to lose their licence and
then effectively your 

515
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,040
livelihood. 
So in the end it all it all sort

516
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,760
of worked out. 
Yeah. 

517
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,440
I mean, six months have gone by 
and I had a lawyer and John had 

518
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:25,720
a lawyer and I had witnesses and
he had witnesses and they, I had

519
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:29,960
all the video evidence of that 
race. 

520
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:37,800
And he he got quite vocal when I
passed him the first time and 

521
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:45,440
was he was wired up and was 
calling me names and stuff in 

522
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,560
the video in the sort of in the 
in car camera stuff. 

523
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,920
So I had all of that and all of 
a sudden before this tribunal, 

524
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,000
they say, they suddenly said 
that no video evidence will be 

525
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,400
allowed. 
And so I thought this is this is

526
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,320
going, this sounds like they're 
going for me because I don't 

527
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,200
even remember. 
You sort of, you know, Murray, 

528
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,600
Walker says. 
And John Sissy's going, he's 

529
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,680
giving me the finger and, and 
calling me names and, you know, 

530
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,000
Murray says. 
He's going for a first or 

531
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:25,880
something like that. 
Yeah. 

532
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:32,200
So anyway, the night before the 
tribunal, the phone rings and 

533
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,120
it's John. 
And he says to me, listen, he 

534
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,240
said, he said, I've been told 
that they want to make an 

535
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:44,960
example out of one of us. 
And he said, what worries me, if

536
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,480
they don't get you, they get it.
They might get me. 

537
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,320
And he says I still think you're
to blame, But he said I don't 

538
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:58,160
want to take the chance. 
He said if we go in as friends 

539
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,680
and just say it's a racing 
accident, He said, I've been 

540
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,920
told they can't do anything. 
So I said, OK, I'm fine with 

541
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,480
that. 
But you say it first. 

542
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,800
You know, as much as I know you,
I'm not saying I trust you. 

543
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,560
I'm not going to go in and say, 
you know, it was a racing 

544
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,200
accident and I've got no 
problem. 

545
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,040
And then you'd come in with the 
gun and build a knife and stab 

546
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,640
me in the back later. 
Anyway, he, he did that. 

547
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,080
To be fair, he went in and said 
all of that. 

548
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,280
And I, I said my bit was exactly
the same. 

549
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,760
And they were very, very 
irritated that we walked out, 

550
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,480
both of us, with no punishment. 
But there was a lot of shit 

551
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:47,720
going on back then against me, I
don't think against John, but 

552
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:54,920
you know, I, I, there was a few 
people that wanted to make life 

553
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,160
difficult for me and that a 
couple of those were in that REC

554
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,000
tribunal. 
Producer Matt's just put in our 

555
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,440
chat that it was actually 33 
years ago, just just gone on 

556
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,440
Saturday. 
Really. 

557
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,360
Yeah, it's and it is still one 
of the most talked about 

558
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,440
incidents in the history of the 
British Touring Car 

559
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,320
Championship. 
Does that annoy you or is that 

560
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,600
something that you you've 
appreciated the, the sort of the

561
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,840
not the notoriety, but the, the,
the, the, the, the, the coverage

562
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,680
that that incident has given 
you? 

563
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,600
Or is it something you wish 
would just go away now? 

564
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,120
And I know we're just as guilty 
talking about it here ourselves,

565
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,520
but. 
No, it's, it's I wish I could 

566
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,320
have had another incident that 
was better than that one that, 

567
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,520
you know, had that amount of 
publicity. 

568
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,360
Does it worry me? 
No, not really. 

569
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,800
I do car club talks. 
I don't do many. 

570
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,760
I do a couple of year and it 
always comes up at a car, you 

571
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,280
know, in any car club it you 
know, it doesn't go very long 

572
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,760
before that's that, that there's
a question about that. 

573
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,800
So it doesn't worry me. 
I think it worried me in the 

574
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,400
first six months because I was 
perceived as the bad guy. 

575
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,680
Years later, I think there's a 
bit more of a, it's a bit more 

576
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,640
averaged out who's the bad guy 
and who's it is good guy And 

577
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:30,480
John, you know, John and I can 
speak for six months, but we're,

578
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,240
we're good mates now. 
Nothing has, you know, I talked 

579
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,960
to him. 
I, I text him on his birthday, 

580
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,080
he text me on my birthday. 
We talk a couple of times a 

581
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:46,520
year. 
Everything is really not a 

582
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,240
problem. 
But to be fair to John, I didn't

583
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:56,160
go there to deliberately wipe 
him out so he couldn't win the 

584
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,360
championship. 
There was, you know, there was a

585
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,800
lot of other mess going on. 
If you look at Harvey, it did 

586
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,640
look as though you wiped Will 
Hoy out. 

587
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,440
You know, I even that I don't 
think was deliberate by Tim. 

588
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,000
I just think that was another 
circumstances and Will was on 

589
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:23,720
the wrong. 
End of it going into 1993 now 

590
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:32,320
and you finally got your move to
SITSA BMW and it was a full BCCC

591
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,320
season as well in that works. 
Carl, how did that move to get 

592
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,440
addition it to come about? 
BMW Motorsport Germany fell out 

593
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,840
with RTL or whoever it was that 
was running DTM at the time. 

594
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,440
They, they, they deemed to agree
with some new regulations. 

595
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,640
And eventually my boss got that 
hump and said, right, we're not 

596
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,320
doing it. 
So he very quickly turned 

597
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,360
around. 
He had all these teams and 

598
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:05,640
drivers and, and obviously he 
wanted to carry on in 

599
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,240
motorsport. 
He just didn't, wasn't prepared 

600
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:12,640
to carry on in a championship 
that he didn't agree with the 

601
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,440
new regulations. 
So all of a sudden we were told,

602
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,000
right, you're not doing DTM. 
You 2 are going to Italy, you 2 

603
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,560
are going to England. 
Snitzers running 2 cards in BTC,

604
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,480
You're you're the drivers. 
And that's how it was. 

605
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,280
There was no, no, what would you
like to do? 

606
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,440
Where would you like to go? 
What about doing England? 

607
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:43,800
It was literally we were on 
course to do DTM and overnight 

608
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:50,080
it was changed. 
So I was now in back in England 

609
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,240
doing a a full season, which at 
the time everyone said it was 

610
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:02,760
for me, it was my championship. 
And I should, you know, if we 

611
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,960
had the car, I was going to win 
it. 

612
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,480
And this is even BMW Germany 
saying that. 

613
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,120
Unfortunately no one had told 
Winkerholk that he, you know, to

614
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,480
be fair to Joe, he he he beat me
fair and square. 

615
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,760
I think I had one more failure 
than he did. 

616
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,720
Yeah, I think he had one 
accident. 

617
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:27,840
I had one accident. 
I also had a bit of suspension 

618
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:34,840
break at Autumn Park. 
But you know, on his day, Joe 

619
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,280
Smokey, Joe Winkler is very, 
very difficult to beat. 

620
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,280
And bear in mind the team is 
German. 

621
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:48,840
He's German and this is my first
real first full season with 

622
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,840
Schnitzer. 
So there was a little bit of 

623
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:58,000
tilt towards Joe, but I, I was 
given the same equipment, the 

624
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,680
same, you know, he, he didn't 
have anything better than I did.

625
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,840
He just was blooming difficult 
to beat. 

626
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,440
And very annoyingly, he he did. 
He beat me. 

627
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,080
That 93 championship was your 
only full season in the 

628
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,920
championship during that 90s era
with the, with the Super Tours, 

629
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,320
with the two litres again, is 
that something that you look 

630
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,880
back on and, and is it a regret 
that you didn't win it or is is?

631
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,680
I mean, back then I was only 
interested in being employed. 

632
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,840
Yeah. 
So whatever I had to do to stay 

633
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:41,440
employed. 
And I had a I've had, and 

634
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:47,320
certainly back then I was having
a privileged career being paid 

635
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:54,480
to race cars all over the world.
So the, the fact that the we 

636
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:02,760
we'd gone there and I hadn't won
it again, it was imitating. 

637
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,400
But you know, I got over it 
pretty quick. 

638
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,000
It's in the eyes of BMW. 
It didn't do me any harm. 

639
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,400
The fact that Joey beat me. 
My boss gave me a a sort of end 

640
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:22,280
of year trophy, which was a 
throttle pedal with some markers

641
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:23,960
on it. 
And when you pushed it, it sort 

642
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:29,720
of said, you know, second place 
was half throttle and Champion 

643
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:34,960
was full throttle. 
So there was a bit of comedy, 

644
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:41,400
they're in it why I didn't win, 
but no, nothing detrimental. 

645
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:51,360
And then moving on, we get to 
the stage in in 9596 where I am 

646
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,720
in a position to pick the 
championship that I want to do. 

647
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:06,840
So the following 95 S 94, they 
wanted someone to go to Japan 

648
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,120
and do the Super Tour 
Championship in Japan. 

649
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,280
And nobody wanted to go, 
including me. 

650
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:22,160
They they just kept offering. 
They just kept putting their 

651
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,400
hand in the pocket and offering 
me more and more and more, not 

652
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,360
just money, but all sorts of 
stuff. 

653
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,400
And I said, OK, I'll do it for 
one year, but you know, I don't 

654
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,800
want to do it for 95, we'll do 
it for 94. 

655
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:44,000
And so I went to Japan and I did
some races in the UK, but we'd 

656
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,320
since been given 100 kilos. 
So the car in the UK wasn't very

657
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,120
good with 100 kilos of handicap 
on it. 

658
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,520
But the car was good in in Japan
and we very, very nearly won the

659
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,600
championship. 
We lost it at the last race and 

660
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:07,000
which really frustrated me. 
Again, it was Schnitzer. 

661
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,200
It was that championship in 94 
and 95 was only about me. 

662
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:17,480
Everybody else as team mates 
came and went. 

663
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:23,680
They it was all about me, which 
is if, if you'd racing for 

664
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,600
someone like Schnitzer and BMW 
and you're, you're the number 

665
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,080
one driver and everything 
revolves around you, It's it's a

666
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:38,240
huge honour and it's just nice. 
I've never had that before. 

667
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,480
So you know, special engines, 
everything. 

668
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:48,680
Anyway, we lost it so and they 
came on the the had a meeting at

669
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:52,160
the end of that season and they 
said, look, you know, you very 

670
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,760
nearly won it. 
BMW Japan wants us to come back 

671
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,320
and try and win it again in 95, 
you know, are you up for it? 

672
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,720
And, and deep down I was, but I 
didn't let them know. 

673
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,400
So I sort of said, well, I know 
it was only for one year and, 

674
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,880
and this and that and, you know,
it's a long way to go and it's 

675
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,960
it's this and it's that. 
And so I put all these excuses 

676
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,800
and they just, they again, they 
just put their hands in their 

677
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,120
pockets and he offered me this 
and they offered me that, you 

678
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:31,160
know, so yet apart from expenses
and how I flew there and back 

679
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,040
and I had even had an agreement 
and if I wanted to come home for

680
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,760
four days, it was my decision. 
I didn't have to ring up the, 

681
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,000
you know, the accounts 
department say, can can I get a 

682
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,240
flight home? 
You know, on I can make all 

683
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:51,560
those decisions. 
I could stay in the hotels, 

684
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,240
which hotels I wanted, I could 
travel business class there and 

685
00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:01,680
back ends that apart from 
financially getting them to pay 

686
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:07,360
a lot more money. 
I also said if I win, I want to 

687
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:13,160
pick my programme for the 96. 
I want to choose not, you know, 

688
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,280
I want to go and race in Russia 
and you're not racing in Russia,

689
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,600
but wherever you're wherever 
you're racing in the world, 

690
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:25,080
England, Australia, Germany, 
Italy, I can have that pick. 

691
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,280
And they said yes. 
So off we go again to Japan. 

692
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:36,280
Luckily this time we win it. 
And at the end of that season 

693
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,480
when we're doing all our 
meetings, they say, so where, 

694
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,440
where do you want to race? 
And I said Germany. 

695
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,000
It was a super Touring waggon 
St. 

696
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:53,560
Yeah, STW, Yeah. 
I said Baghatsi Super Tour, 

697
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,880
that's what I want to do. 
So that was that was all agreed.

698
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:05,480
And then as the 95 years started
a sort of ends, I kept hearing 

699
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:14,720
BMW GB mumbling my name for BTC 
the next year and I just ignored

700
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:20,640
it because I thought well maybe 
they don't know the deal, maybe 

701
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,360
they don't know what I've 
already agreed with Germany so 

702
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,360
don't get involved just ignore 
it. 

703
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:32,560
Hopefully it'll go away. 
And about January, January or 

704
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,600
February, the phone rang 1 
evening and it was my boss in 

705
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,240
Germany. 
And he I got on with him great, 

706
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,360
but he was a no nonsense type of
guy. 

707
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,320
And it was, there was no hello 
or how are you or hi Steve, it's

708
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,920
Carla Heinz here. 
None of that was straight away. 

709
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,400
What's this shit I hear about 
you not wanting to race in 

710
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,160
England? 
And I before I could say 

711
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,040
anything, you know, it's your 
homeland. 

712
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,640
They all want you in England. 
Why don't you want to what's the

713
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:04,840
matter with you, blah, blah, 
blah. 

714
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,200
And then he clicked on and on. 
I've asked it, how do I, how do 

715
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,120
I get out of this? 
Anyway, one of his favourite 

716
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:17,560
sayings to me, whether he was at
a race track and he came up to 

717
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,160
me on the grid or whether it 
was, you know, a meeting in his 

718
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:26,920
office in in Munich, was he used
to say, are you motivated? 

719
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,160
And I used, if I was sat in the 
car on the grid, I'd say I'm not

720
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,160
really in the mood. 
And I was didn't really get up 

721
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,720
that that well today. 
I said I don't really feel that 

722
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:43,000
used to really wind him up and 
and you know, he'd walk off and 

723
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:48,400
say shit English drive and but I
knew by this stage I had a great

724
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:54,320
relationship with him. 
Anyway, he goes on and on and on

725
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,360
on at me this evening on this 
phone. 

726
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:01,000
BMW GB want you and they think 
you're a star and you should 

727
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,760
drive like, you know, how am I 
going to get out of this? 

728
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,760
So I said to him, Carla Heinz, I
said you're my boss. 

729
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,040
I said, you once said you 
weren't my boss, we were 

730
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,760
partners, but you're the guy 
that pays me. 

731
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,520
You're my boss. 
If you tell me to race in 

732
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,920
Russia, I said I'll race in 
Russia because you're my boss. 

733
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,080
I have to do as I'm told. 
But I said if you ask me what 

734
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,440
I'm motivated to do, I said it's
not England. 

735
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,760
I said it's Germany. 
And with that he said, you shit 

736
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,080
guy. 
And he hung up the man wool. 

737
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,640
I knew I got him. 
I knew I was home and dry. 

738
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:51,880
So from that moment, that was 
the only real year 96 that I had

739
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,960
a choice. 
A bit later on about Le Mans, 

740
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,280
they said to me did I want to be
part of it? 

741
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,000
Because they knew I didn't like 
Le Mans. 

742
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,480
And they said we're going to do 
it until we win it. 

743
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,480
Do you want to be part of the 
programme or not? 

744
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:11,000
And obviously that was offered 
to me and I, I agreed to, to do 

745
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:19,480
it, but that the, the sort of 96
year was the only one where I 

746
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,720
had a lot of clout to actually 
pick what I wanted to do. 

747
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,400
Yeah. 
The rest of the time they just 

748
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:33,480
said, you know, there's, you 
know, there's Macau, Hong Kong, 

749
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:39,200
Macau, BMW want you out there. 
There's a race, you know, are 

750
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,080
you OK? 
They never said you're going. 

751
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,320
They always would ask are you OK
with going? 

752
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,320
I don't actually know if I'd 
said no. 

753
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,680
I'm, you know, I don't want to 
do it. 

754
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:59,240
I said no for England But I I I 
did think I was pretty home dry 

755
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:04,440
and comfortable in saying no. 
That 96 series in Germany, I 

756
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,360
mean, it was a it was a heck of 
a championship. 

757
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,240
You had you had, you know, the 
big names of like, you know, 

758
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:13,480
Piero Wendlinger, Roland Ash 
Boots and Leroy Ella was there, 

759
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,720
you know, Christian Abt, Sasha 
Mass and Anthony Reed, who 

760
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,080
everyone would know on the 
podcast is there Capelli. 

761
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,680
It was a strong field of 
drivers. 

762
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,480
It it was great. 
Again, it was baguette. 

763
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:33,680
See the car was good and we we 
started to become sort of 

764
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,080
leading it or very close to 
leading it. 

765
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,040
And again my boss came on the 
phone one night. 

766
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,560
He said what can we do to make 
sure you win the championship? 

767
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,640
And I had a teammate at the time
called Alex Booksliner. 

768
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:55,000
I think his nickname was 
tricking brain and and the the 

769
00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:01,240
team named him that, not me. 
So he was a young junior up and 

770
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,320
coming junior driver. 
I said, well, I said two things 

771
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,280
I could do with a teammate that 
could help me. 

772
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,440
But I said, you know, don't just
give me anyone it before before 

773
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,160
they, they you ask them to do 
it. 

774
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:21,160
They, it is they need to help 
me, not pretend to help me and 

775
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:26,560
then clear off into the distance
or you know, hinder me rather 

776
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,000
than help me. 
And I said secondly, I've been 

777
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,440
told that in England, I think it
was Sukoto and David Brabham in 

778
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:41,440
BTC in 96 in the Uki said I've 
been told that they've got some 

779
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,560
special engines, anti friction 
engines. 

780
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,920
And I said I don't know how many
they've got. 

781
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,680
I said, you know, if they've got
6, I'd like one. 

782
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,200
If they've got 2, I'd like 1. 
I said I just need an engine. 

783
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,120
So my my boss said, Oh no, he 
said they haven't got any 

784
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,200
engines. 
I said, well, I said I've been 

785
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,360
told they've got these special 
engines. 

786
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,280
He said no they haven't. 
I said, well what about the team

787
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,040
mate? 
He said yeah, leave it with me, 

788
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,200
who would you like? 
And so I said, what if Shakarta 

789
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:18,600
agreed to help Johnny? 
I said he'd be my first choice. 

790
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,440
So he said OK, leave with me, 
I'll come back to you. 

791
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,520
So anyway, couple of days later 
he comes back. 

792
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,600
He says right, He said some 
you're right about the engine. 

793
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,480
He said they do have some. 
He said I never knew. 

794
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,000
So he says shows what great boss
I am, I don't know what the 

795
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,120
Hell's going on. 
So he said I've got you one of 

796
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:38,560
those. 
And he says I've got you 

797
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:44,840
Chipotle to help you. 
So we then went to Berlin, which

798
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,320
was the next race and I think we
were two races from the end, 

799
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:54,400
three including Berlin. 
And Johnny drafted me round with

800
00:59:54,960 --> 01:00:00,560
my engine, my new engine and I 
stuck it on pole position and I 

801
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,480
think Chicoto qualified 4th and 
off we go. 

802
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,440
I'm I'm leading the race. 
Everything is hunky Dory. 

803
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:14,720
Chicoto's. 3rd or 4th, I can see
them in my mirror, but I'm, I'm 

804
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:20,560
up the road. 
It's looking pretty, pretty OK 

805
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,800
that I'm going to win the race 
And all of a sudden I, there's 

806
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,400
there's basically a 2 long 
straight, a very tight hairpin 

807
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,760
as she came at a very fast 
hairpin like Mallory Park, 

808
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,840
Gerrard's type hairpin. 
So I'm coming through the fast 

809
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:44,680
hairpin 3rd or 4th gear and I 
see my teammate, not Tricotto 

810
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:50,000
chicken brain and he's he's hit 
the barrier somewhere and he's 

811
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,800
limping back to the pits. 
Problem is he's on he's on the 

812
01:00:53,800 --> 01:01:00,040
right and the pit laying in half
a kilometre, a kilometre is on 

813
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,240
the left. 
Whereas I'm coming through all 

814
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:07,360
chat, I'm thinking and he's, you
know, all the wheels are facing 

815
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,880
in the wrong direction. 
The car's not particularly 

816
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,680
trampling very straight. 
Just as I get on top of him, he 

817
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,560
decides he's going to go from 
the right to the left without 

818
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:24,360
looking. 
And I hit him and basically that

819
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,200
was it. 
That was my championship over. 

820
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,920
The team nearly hung him 
afterwards. 

821
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,600
You know, I mean, I can, I 
didn't even have to say anything

822
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:38,800
because we began to see team 
which he was in a Bugatti car. 

823
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,880
I mean, they were then running 
three cars, one for Johnny, one 

824
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:46,480
for me and one for him. 
They they were absolutely livid.

825
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,000
And that championship, another, 
another championship went out 

826
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,520
the window. 
I got all these great excuses. 

827
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,040
I mean, you know, it doesn't 
matter what what championship 

828
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,200
I'd I've got a reason why I 
didn't win it. 

829
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,120
In 97 and 98, talking about 
something that you did win is 

830
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,640
you won at Macau, which is, you 
know, one of the most 

831
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:16,040
prestigious races in the world, 
especially amongst touring cars,

832
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,040
as well as forming a free. 
And you won it in 97 with the 

833
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:24,640
Gatsi and 98 with Schnitzer. 
So it's it's almost this fact 

834
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,200
you did end up winning with both
those teams that you enjoyed 

835
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,120
being with so much at BMWI mean,
how was that as an event? 

836
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,680
It's it's quite a big event, 
isn't it? 

837
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,080
It's, it's a great event and I 
love going there. 

838
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:41,360
I love doing it. 
And luckily I was, I was always 

839
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:47,200
in decent teams and decent cars.
But I, you know, I think the 

840
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,920
first year I did, it was 
probably 91 and I crashed in 

841
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:56,200
free practise. 
I then turned up in 92 and I, I 

842
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:00,120
got as far as qualifying and 
then I crashed and then turned 

843
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,000
up in 93. 
I'm not sure about the years, 

844
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,400
maybe the years aren't quite 
right, but I, every time I 

845
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,800
turned up, I, I used to, I used 
to get a bit further into the 

846
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:16,640
event before I hit the barrier. 
So by the time we got to 97, 

847
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:21,720
very interesting story about the
97 roads because I that year I'd

848
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:28,200
be driving the McLaren and I 
hadn't driven a super tour from 

849
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:33,880
9096 was the last time I drove 
the Super tour. 

850
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:39,680
So all year I've been driving 
the McLaren in a World Series 

851
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:44,520
with JJ And it was it was a 
good, it had quite a little bit 

852
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,080
of downforce. 
It was the long tail one with 

853
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,240
this sort of, you know, slightly
better configuration. 

854
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,440
And suddenly BMW said, oh, we 
want you to go to Macau. 

855
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,040
Are you OK with that? 
And I said, yeah, which which 

856
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:01,440
team? 
And they said all begatsi. 

857
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,520
And I said, who's my teammate? 
And they said Winkler, well, 

858
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:09,920
he'd won already at my count. 
And he, he was very good around 

859
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,920
my count. 
I thought, God, this is going to

860
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,080
be, this is going to be hard 
work. 

861
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:15,880
You know, I haven't driven a 
bloody car. 

862
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:19,520
And I said, whose car is it? 
Am I using? 

863
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,200
And they said, oh, Shakoto's 
car. 

864
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,440
I said he saw any chance of a 
test before I go. 

865
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,560
And he said, no, the car's 
already on its way. 

866
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:33,600
So we turn up there and 
obviously the McLaren had taught

867
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:40,720
me, it had taught me a different
driving, I would say finesse. 

868
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:46,800
I was just a bit sharper and 
smoother than I ever had been in

869
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,040
a touring car. 
So the, the, the McLaren in 

870
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:56,120
getting used to the McLaren had 
taking a little bit of time when

871
01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:00,640
I first started to drive it. 
Luckily Leto helped me a lot, 

872
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,240
especially in the quick stuff 
where it was using downforce, 

873
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,680
you know, he said, you know, 
stop using the throttle like 

874
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,880
that, don't hit the apex curb, 
just turning and the finger will

875
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,280
go round. 
And he was very helpful. 

876
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,160
He got me up to speed quite 
soon, quite quickly in the 

877
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:25,040
McLaren. 
So anyway, turn up at Macau and 

878
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,600
I'm I'm I'm a little bit nervous
that Joe's you know, I'm going 

879
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,840
to be trailing Joe all the way 
through because you you know, 

880
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,640
although I'm being paid and I'm 
enjoying it, We all we only want

881
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,240
to win. 
We don't like not hurting it 

882
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,120
anyway, free practise qualifying
in both races. 

883
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:51,360
He couldn't get near me and I 
put that down to having now 

884
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:56,400
I've, I've, I'm driving a 
different way after the, after 

885
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,240
driving the McLaren for a year. 
I just think it had sharpened me

886
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,120
up and smoothed me, smoothed me 
out. 

887
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:08,280
And I, I remember the, the, the 
corner, one of the quick corners

888
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:10,520
was a corner by the Mandarin 
Hotel. 

889
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:15,000
It's probably changed now, but 
it's a very, very fast corner. 

890
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,280
It's nearly flat, but it's it's 
not. 

891
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,080
In the early days it was down 
one gear. 

892
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,920
In 97 it was, it was six gear, 
but quite a lift. 

893
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:32,200
And in through that corner I had
something like, I think it was 9

894
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,320
kilometres more speed than Joe 
through there. 

895
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,720
And Joe's not, you know, he's 
brave. 

896
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:44,720
So it was just, and I've never 
seen Joe work so hard on the 

897
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,720
setup and the telemetry. 
He was there late with his 

898
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,160
engineers looking at my 
telemetry, looking at he's 

899
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:57,760
trying to find where this where 
this time was and he just, he 

900
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:03,200
couldn't find him. 
So that was a very rewarding 

901
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:07,880
race that year. 
And I think I won the outright 

902
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:13,320
thing in 97, whereas I think the
following year I just won a 

903
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,400
race, if that makes sense. 
I can't remember. 

904
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:22,160
Yeah, it it in the end your, 
your career with BMW, you did Le

905
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,920
Mans as you mentioned in 99. 
Interesting. 

906
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,760
You you you said there and I've 
I've heard this in the past as 

907
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,120
well, that you didn't like Le 
Mans. 

908
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,400
There was something about Le 
Mans that you didn't enjoy. 

909
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,440
What? 
What was that? 

910
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,000
Danger. 
Danger. 

911
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:40,320
Safety. 
Yeah. 

912
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:47,360
Fair health and sight. 
I'm, you know, I'm still racing 

913
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:53,240
to this day, but I understand 
the what can go wrong. 

914
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,960
And to me, you know, to drive 
Randleman in the daylight in a, 

915
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:04,760
in a, a McLaren or prototype, 
fantastic, brilliant. 

916
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:11,200
But to drive that race, the 24 
hours in the night and the rain 

917
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,680
with 7080 other cars on the 
track. 

918
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:19,520
Yeah, it's if, if it goes wrong,
it's going to look like a plane 

919
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:24,720
crash. 
And in, you know, per the first 

920
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:29,279
time I did it was 1983 in a 
Mazda organised by Tom 

921
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:33,479
Walkinshaw Racing and it was 
myself, Jeff Allen and James 

922
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:35,479
Weaver. 
And in the middle of the night, 

923
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:42,760
this little Rotary engine Mazda 
run by Mazda Japan, Mazda Speed 

924
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,680
was doing over 201 an hour down 
the straight and there was no 

925
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,319
chicanes. 
And I promised myself in the 

926
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:54,399
middle of the night that if I 
survived, I'd never go back 

927
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:59,359
there because it frightened me. 
It really frightened the life 

928
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:06,200
out of me. 
And from 83 to 96, I probably 

929
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:11,399
turned offers down, I probably 
turned 10 offers down and said 

930
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:15,439
no. 
And then BMW said OK, we're 

931
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,720
going to do it until you until 
BMW wins it. 

932
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,160
Do you want to be part of this 
programme or do you not? 

933
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:30,040
So if you are a driver of my 
calibre, the three biggest races

934
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:35,680
in my opinion in the world is 
Indianapolis 500, Monaco, 

935
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,120
Formula One, Monaco Grand Prix 
and Le Mans. 

936
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:39,279
Yeah, well. 
Yeah. 

937
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:45,120
I'm not going to never be able 
to even look at Indianapolis 500

938
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:49,600
or Monaco Grand Prix. 
But here I am with the 

939
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:54,400
manufacturer that I know and 
know really well, and they're 

940
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:59,720
offering me a possibility to be 
in a car that they're going to 

941
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,560
keep doing it until they win Le 
Mans. 

942
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,320
And I thought, well, I've got to
be, you know, if I can win the 

943
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,560
race, I've got to, I've got to 
go with that. 

944
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:13,360
And also the teams, it's BMW, 
it's Begatsi, it's Snitzer. 

945
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,560
I know the teams, you know, 
they're not everything is going 

946
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:23,440
to be new when we turn up and 
then on, you know, be before the

947
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:26,600
we start the race, everything's 
going to be brand new again. 

948
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:31,640
That's just how they work. 
So the the the car failing and 

949
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:38,960
me hurting myself of small, the 
chances of me running into 

950
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,240
another car in my opinion was 
high. 

951
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,120
But you know, I've got to take 
that. 

952
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:49,120
I've got to take that chance. 
Unfortunately, the 99 when they 

953
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:52,360
did win it, obviously I wasn't 
in that car. 

954
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:59,080
I was in another car and so I 
didn't win it, but it for me, 

955
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:06,600
it's the slow cars, it's night. 
It's it's not me, it's the other

956
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:12,840
cars around you that the speed 
differential in the last time I 

957
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:19,480
did it in the breaking area for 
the chicanes, you know, at 120 

958
01:11:19,480 --> 01:11:24,640
metre MOP we were still fat out 
doing 200 plus mile an hour. 

959
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:30,400
And the smaller cars that at 
night, they don't know back then

960
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:32,920
that everyone had the same 
colour headlights. 

961
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,560
There was no clever cameras or 
anything like that. 

962
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:40,440
The smaller cars didn't know 
those headlights that were 

963
01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:45,640
coming up on them if they were 
doing 200 mile an hour or 120. 

964
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:51,760
So for me, the speed 
differentials everywhere were 

965
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,680
just too high and too much of A 
risk. 

966
01:11:54,680 --> 01:12:03,120
And every lap, every single lap 
for 8-9 hours, I would go, you 

967
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:07,640
know, I would pray that they'd 
seen me and I'd normally swear 

968
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,280
under my breath because at the 
last minute I figured they 

969
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,800
hadn't seen me. 
And I'd start taking avoiding 

970
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:21,400
action and end up on all The 
Dirty, what I called a hard 

971
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:25,560
shoulder to miss someone just 
because they hadn't seen me. 

972
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,600
And I don't, I don't consider 
that is racing. 

973
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,680
That's, you know, the track. 
Fantastic. 

974
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,000
What a place to drive around the
cars that we were racing. 

975
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,320
Fantastic. 
Daylight, yes, great. 

976
01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:44,440
If I could do if I could do them
on Classics, I'd probably jump 

977
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:49,920
at it in the daylight in a 
decent car, in a decent classic 

978
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,720
historic car. 
But I never liked the race. 

979
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,880
My wife loved it. 
I kept trying to get her to 

980
01:12:55,880 --> 01:13:00,400
drive and me me be the 
spectator, but that never seemed

981
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:05,600
to happen. 
That, that, that, that long 

982
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:12,920
career with BMW that was spanned
over a decade ended in 2000. 

983
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,840
I seem to remember the time you 
didn't, you didn't have the 

984
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:17,680
greatest relationships with 
Gerhard Berger, who was 

985
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,600
overseeing the department at the
time. 

986
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:21,000
Is that, is that right? 
Was that? 

987
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:24,160
Am I remembering right? 
Yeah. 

988
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:27,920
I mean it. 
Only my relationship up until he

989
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,880
took over Motorsport was fine 
with him. 

990
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:32,960
But then he took over 
Motorsport. 

991
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:38,960
My boss was there. 
My boss employed Gerhard as a 

992
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:43,360
consultant. 
And within a year, he, my boss 

993
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:48,840
was moved out of that role. 
And Gerhard was in, in that 

994
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:53,320
driving seat. 
And certainly at Le Mans. 

995
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:58,360
He sort of said to me, look, I 
only want Formula One drivers. 

996
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,520
I don't, I don't want you to 
drive this car. 

997
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:05,800
And I said, well, you know, can 
you talk? 

998
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,800
You know, I've done a load of 
testing with Williams and 

999
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:11,720
Schnitzer. 
Can you talk to them about me? 

1000
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:13,680
And he said, no, I've made my 
decision. 

1001
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:21,360
So I then lost my likeness for 
him because he wouldn't 

1002
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,120
entertain me. 
In his world, you had to be a 

1003
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:31,800
Formula One driver. 
And he'd also retired, I think 

1004
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:36,560
at 36, so he didn't quite 
understand why he was paying 

1005
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:40,480
someone. 
I think I was 43 at the time, 

1006
01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:42,440
4445. 
I don't know. 

1007
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:49,640
So I I've tried to negotiate and
I didn't get very far. 

1008
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:54,080
And then he said if you want to 
do the race, he said you can 

1009
01:14:54,080 --> 01:15:02,640
drive with the 98 Williams BMW 
with Thomas Becher and Bill 

1010
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:08,240
Oblin. 
So I said why would I do that? 

1011
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,640
So because he said, well, 
because you're employed by us 

1012
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:16,280
and you'll get paid. 
So I said, well I'll do, I'll 

1013
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:21,320
drive that car for you. 
But I said I've heard a rumour 

1014
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:27,440
that if after Le Mans you're 
possibly taking the 99 car to 

1015
01:15:27,440 --> 01:15:31,280
America to do the American Le 
Mans Series. 

1016
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:35,320
And he said if you take it to 
America, I would have be part of

1017
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,360
that programme. 
And he said you're OK deal. 

1018
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:42,600
And to be fair, had to remind 
him a couple of times. 

1019
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:49,080
But to be fair he did when, when
they took a car to America, I 

1020
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:54,280
think we did 5 races and they, I
was part of that programme. 

1021
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:59,440
So it it wasn't, I still see 
Gerhard today. 

1022
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:02,320
I mean, we're not friends, but I
see him at Goodwood and other 

1023
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:06,360
places and BMW do's. 
He's fine. 

1024
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:11,160
We sit and we talk and you know 
that there's I don't remind him 

1025
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,200
of that time and he doesn't 
remind me of that time. 

1026
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:23,720
But it was just very frustrating
that I, I had done so much. 

1027
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:29,080
I think Tom Christensen and I 
did 4 1/2 thousand kilometres of

1028
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:34,760
testing with that 99 car and the
car was just magic. 

1029
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:39,800
And it did win Le Mont and I 
wasn't in that car. 

1030
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:45,520
I was in the old 98 car, which 
just wasn't the wasn't a nice or

1031
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:49,800
competitive car. 
I think we finished fit after 

1032
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,480
changing the clutch. 
We possibly might have finished 

1033
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:56,440
third but we had to put a clutch
in it with about two hours to 

1034
01:16:56,440 --> 01:16:59,480
go. 
So we we finished fifth. 

1035
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:04,120
No one remembers second, they 
only remember who wins that 

1036
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:13,120
there. 
Heading into 2001 then and he's 

1037
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,320
then come back to the BTCC with 
Peugeot. 

1038
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,080
Obviously, this was the first 
rule of first year of the BTC 

1039
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,360
cars as opposed to the Super 
Taurus. 

1040
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:29,560
It wasn't a great year in terms 
of competitiveness, was it? 

1041
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,400
The Vauxhalls were very far 
clear. 

1042
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:35,800
And I mean, was it in any way an
enjoyable year for you or not? 

1043
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:40,160
Not the best year. 
Not not the best, but it was 

1044
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:46,920
circumstances. 
So I'd retired in 2000, you 

1045
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:52,760
know, Gerhard was my new boss. 
He was negotiating everyone's 

1046
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,800
contract, financially, whatever 
you want. 

1047
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:02,960
He was, he was sort of halving 
it up because they need more 

1048
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:08,600
money for the Williams Formula 
One programme and so and he 

1049
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:11,320
didn't want me considered that I
was too old. 

1050
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:13,400
So I thought well, I'll stop 
now. 

1051
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:18,880
You know, let's let's call it, I
think I was 50 then. 

1052
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:25,480
So we stopped, probably not. 
I was 49 or something. 

1053
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:31,600
So and then, but I just have 
acquired the BMW dealership, 

1054
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:37,760
which I acquired because I was 
retiring and that particular 

1055
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:44,120
business, new proposition was 
struggling like hell. 

1056
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:47,680
So I couldn't afford one that 
was making lots of money. 

1057
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,240
The only one I could afford was 
one that was losing a load of 

1058
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:55,640
money. 
And I underestimated how how 

1059
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:59,840
difficult and how long it would 
take to turn that around. 

1060
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:05,760
So suddenly Peugeot came on the 
phone and started saying would I

1061
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,240
do BTC? 
And I said no. 

1062
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,040
And then he came back and upped 
the price and I said no. 

1063
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:15,520
And they said, well, you don't 
need to do any testing or any 

1064
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:20,840
marketing or promotion, Just 
turn up and race it and go home.

1065
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:25,360
And they put the price up. 
And financially I needed, I 

1066
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:31,720
needed that contract. 
It just took a lot of pressure 

1067
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,600
off of the business. 
If, you know, that way I wasn't,

1068
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:38,320
I didn't need to take a salary 
out of the business. 

1069
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,200
I could put some of that money 
back into the business. 

1070
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:47,960
So I said yes. 
And I did think the car would be

1071
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:52,640
better than it actually was. 
The car was just too big and 

1072
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:57,160
heavy, The wheelbase was too 
long, the engine wasn't the 

1073
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:03,240
right design and it just 
wouldn't do what we wanted it to

1074
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:08,400
do. 
And I think I, and it also there

1075
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:13,840
was a quite a bit of pressure. 
Peugeot had basically been told 

1076
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:20,040
by France, Peugeot, France had 
told GB that unless they want to

1077
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:26,440
race, that programme was over. 
So we were under an awful lot of

1078
01:20:26,440 --> 01:20:29,760
pressure to try and win a couple
of races. 

1079
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:36,680
And eventually I got into the 
leader Alton Park and the 

1080
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:40,800
flipping thing developed an oil 
leak and it it, I could see the 

1081
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,640
oil coming out, everyone could 
see it smoking and it basically 

1082
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:49,720
run out of oil about 3 laps from
the end and the engine broke. 

1083
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:54,760
So it wasn't. 
And then I also, Phil Bennett 

1084
01:20:54,760 --> 01:21:00,240
decided to wind me out at Brands
Hatch, had wounded up with me 

1085
01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:06,360
sort of damaging my neck. 
So the whole Peugeot episode 

1086
01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:11,160
saga was, yeah, shouldn't have 
really done it. 

1087
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,440
Would have been better. 
I would have preferred to have 

1088
01:21:13,440 --> 01:21:20,720
stopped my career at BMW rather 
than do that that year. 

1089
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,760
It was a it was a tough year. 
The big action in that was 

1090
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,920
Steve, that the finale at 
Brands, I mean it did a lot of 

1091
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:31,800
damage to you at the time, 
physical damage. 

1092
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:35,360
Is it something you still suffer
with now or is it do you still 

1093
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,200
have after the effects of it to 
this day? 

1094
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:45,880
No, because I I got it fixed. 
So what happened after that race

1095
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,960
on the Sunday at Brands? 
I I then on Monday morning, I 

1096
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,120
drove to Lincoln. 
The BMW dealership was in 

1097
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:58,440
Lincoln and I had some meetings.
So I, I drove to Lincoln, felt 

1098
01:21:58,440 --> 01:22:04,040
fine, did all the meetings, felt
more or less OK didn't think 

1099
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:07,120
anything a bit sore, but nothing
other than that. 

1100
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:11,000
And I had a little sort of 
apartment up there that I stayed

1101
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:13,080
when I was up there. 
I was normally up there for 

1102
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:19,760
three or four days a week and I 
went to bed in my apartment and 

1103
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:21,520
the next morning I couldn't get 
out of bed. 

1104
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:24,520
I had Vertigo like you cannot 
believe. 

1105
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:30,480
I really, I tried so hard to 
stand, I couldn't stand up and I

1106
01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:35,640
then stayed in bed for two days,
kept thinking this is going to 

1107
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:40,240
go away. 
I rang my GP and my GP said well

1108
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,680
don't know you better, you 
better try and get in and we'll 

1109
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,680
have a look at you. 
So in the end my wife had to 

1110
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:52,760
come up and pick me up and over 
a couple of hours I eventually 

1111
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:54,840
managed to stand up and get 
dressed. 

1112
01:22:55,160 --> 01:23:00,360
Once I stood up and I stood up 
for 5-10 minutes I was fine. 

1113
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,480
No, no Vertigo. 
Anyway, kind of Long story short

1114
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:06,240
and off I go to the doctor. 
They can't see what's wrong with

1115
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:09,320
me so they say well you better 
have a brain scan. 

1116
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,520
By which time 10 days has gone 
by since that accident. 

1117
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:21,600
So I go and have a brain scan to
see what's going on and in the 

1118
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,560
brain has just got bruised in 
the skull. 

1119
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,800
Basically the brain has rattled 
around in the skull and it's all

1120
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:32,080
bruised and they can see the 
bruising on the scan and they 

1121
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:36,360
say you know that's fine it'll 
it'll couple more weeks that'll 

1122
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:38,320
all calm down and you'll be 
fine. 

1123
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:42,800
But at the same time they then 
notice that the neck there was a

1124
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:50,000
problem with my neck and I had a
vertebrae which had come 

1125
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:54,920
unlodged and was very, very 
close to the spinal cord and was

1126
01:23:54,920 --> 01:24:00,160
trapping all the nerves. 
So but it wasn't really in much 

1127
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:04,640
pain. 
But so off I go to see a 

1128
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:07,240
surgeon. 
I did a load of research which 

1129
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:13,040
who to put me right and I went 
to the best guy in the in the 

1130
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:18,680
England or reputably the best 
guy and he takes a load of scans

1131
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:22,960
and say yeah, well you know, 
you're 50, it's a dangerous 

1132
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:25,480
operation, I don't want to do 
it. 

1133
01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:30,440
Just change your lifestyle. 
So he said no, no skiing, no 

1134
01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:36,000
rugby, no water skiing, no snow 
skiing and no motor racing. 

1135
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:38,000
Change your lifestyle, you'll be
fine. 

1136
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:46,040
So that was 20 one 2001 I think.
And so I didn't do anything 

1137
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:52,440
until 2013. 
I stopped racing and everything 

1138
01:24:52,440 --> 01:24:56,480
and then one day my left arm 
went completely numb. 

1139
01:24:56,880 --> 01:25:00,720
So pins and needles had no 
feeling in my left arm. 

1140
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:06,480
So I off I go back to see my 
surgeon and I, he looks at me, 

1141
01:25:07,480 --> 01:25:09,600
gets a load more scans and he 
said, OK. 

1142
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:14,520
He said now you, you, you, you 
don't, you need surgery. 

1143
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:18,360
You don't need it next week. 
You need it tomorrow or Monday 

1144
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:21,040
at the latest. 
He said now everything's 

1145
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:25,160
deteriorated and your, your 
vertebrae is now embedded in the

1146
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:28,880
spinal cord. 
So he said you need, you need 

1147
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:33,360
surgery. 
So which is what they they did 

1148
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:36,520
sort of two days later after 
seeing him. 

1149
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,880
And that was a four and a half 
hour operation and they removed 

1150
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,680
2 vertebrates and a load of 
discs and replaced them all with

1151
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:51,960
carbon cages and some titanium. 
And I had to go and see him 

1152
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:58,320
every month for three months to 
see what the recovery was coming

1153
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:00,640
along like. 
And after three months he said 

1154
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:03,920
no, that's good, I'm happy. 
So I said, how strong is that? 

1155
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:08,720
He is as strong as when you were
1920 years of age. 

1156
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,480
He says it's absolutely fun. 
I said can I race cars again? 

1157
01:26:12,480 --> 01:26:13,680
He said, yeah, of course you 
can. 

1158
01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:22,400
So that suddenly I had, you 
know, I don't know, 12 years off

1159
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:28,760
and I, so I started the 
addiction was very easy to get 

1160
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:32,560
back, get those fixes and start 
racing again. 

1161
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:35,240
Yeah. 
I mean, we, we saw you a couple 

1162
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:40,280
of years ago at brands where you
were not only demonstrating you 

1163
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:44,360
were racing your, your BMW 
Supertorio that you you have a 

1164
01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:47,440
share in and do you still get 
the same thrill out of it now? 

1165
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:50,000
Well, not when it hits the 
barrier. 

1166
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:51,880
That was hard. 
It's all big that day. 

1167
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:55,880
That was that, that, that that 
trail was not. 

1168
01:26:55,920 --> 01:27:01,360
Yeah, I still enjoy the the guy 
that actually owns that car. 

1169
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:05,280
It's, it's still being repaired 
as we speak. 

1170
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:08,880
We haven't rushed it. 
We want it absolutely spot on. 

1171
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:15,640
And the guy that owns that car 
also owns a couple of other 

1172
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:21,040
cars, which I, he lets me race 
with him and I do, I mean, I'd 

1173
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:25,200
be bored stiff if I didn't have 
the race. 

1174
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,640
It's not just the driving, it's 
the, it's, it's the weekend 

1175
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:33,760
environment of testing, 
qualifying, racing. 

1176
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:40,360
He's, he's still building his 
racing career. 

1177
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:42,520
He's only been at it for a 
couple of years. 

1178
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:48,160
So he's still needs a bit of 
help to get up to speed and he's

1179
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,480
getting there, but he's getting 
frustrated that he's, you know, 

1180
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,720
he can't get the lap time. 
That I can do. 

1181
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,360
But that's good. 
He still needs me. 

1182
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:11,680
Steve, just want to thank you so
much for spending so much of 

1183
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:15,320
your time with us this evening 
and looking back at your career.

1184
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:20,000
Any particular highlights in any
part of it at all that you look 

1185
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:22,080
back on and really fondly 
remember? 

1186
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:26,160
The problem is when you're 
racing as I've done you, you 

1187
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:32,080
never looked at anything you'd 
done that was, you know, a week 

1188
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:35,640
later, a year later. 
It was always next race, next 

1189
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:41,760
season, next con town. 
And so you only appreciate what 

1190
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:46,080
I'd done years later and I 
looked back, But you know, I had

1191
01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:49,920
a privileged career. 
I worked very, very hard at 

1192
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:53,040
staying employed. 
It wasn't all about winning 

1193
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:55,720
races. 
It was actually staying 

1194
01:28:55,720 --> 01:29:00,760
employed. 
And if you go back to the Tim 

1195
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:06,920
Harvey Championship John Clinton
thing in Germany, after three 

1196
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:12,280
races in DTM, 3-4 races, who, 
whichever driver BMW had the 

1197
01:29:12,280 --> 01:29:16,840
most points, everyone else then 
battered for that guy. 

1198
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:23,680
So to go to England in BTC and 
help Tim, that was nothing 

1199
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:27,480
unusual for me. 
It was quite, quite easy to do. 

1200
01:29:27,480 --> 01:29:30,320
I knew all the tricks and what 
to do and what not to do. 

1201
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:36,640
It just ended up in the wrong, 
wrong situation, wrong scenario,

1202
01:29:37,480 --> 01:29:40,880
you know, and I feel sorry for 
John, but at least he can blame 

1203
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:43,560
it on me. 
He can't blame it on himself for

1204
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:45,400
not being quick enough or 
whatever. 

1205
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,200
So he's got someone to blame. 
Looking back at the rest of the 

1206
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,320
career. 
Yeah, I love the Macau thing. 

1207
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:56,040
I did. 
I did the 24 hour number of 

1208
01:29:56,040 --> 01:30:00,520
ringing us here with Cosworth 
and won it with the two Klaus's.

1209
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:08,040
The the one of the great 
memories was I, I did spar 24 

1210
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,880
hours, I think 8 or 9 times and 
I couldn't win it. 

1211
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:17,120
Every single time that car broke
or something happened, one of my

1212
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:20,680
team mates crashed or whatever. 
He just couldn't win it. 

1213
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:28,240
And then in 92 I turned up, 
we've Begatsi and my wife was 

1214
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:33,000
expecting my first daughter and 
when I left she, you know, she 

1215
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,080
was expecting, she wasn't in 
labour. 

1216
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:38,800
And then on I think Friday 
evening, she rang and said she 

1217
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:43,520
was in the hospital and in 
London in labour. 

1218
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:48,600
Could I get there? 
So I managed to get permission 

1219
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,600
off of them. 
Begatsi, the team boss, 

1220
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:57,400
Raffaelli and I flew back Friday
night, was in the hospital for 

1221
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:01,600
when my daughter was born. 
Flew back early hours of 

1222
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:07,400
Saturday morning, started the 
race and we won the race on the 

1223
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:13,560
last lap from Schnitzer and it 
was trying to think who was it? 

1224
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:15,080
Yeah, I think was it? 
No, it was. 

1225
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:21,240
It was Vander Pol was in a 
Schnitzer car and that went down

1226
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:26,280
in the closest ever finish for 
any race in history. 

1227
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:31,960
So having won it after 9 
attempts, I also got a daughter 

1228
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:36,520
born on the same weekend. 
She nearly got called spa, but 

1229
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,040
we managed not to pull the spa 
alone. 

1230
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:44,280
Good say. 
But you know, there's, there's 

1231
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:47,440
lots of great memories. 
There's not one. 

1232
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:53,320
The Japanese thing was was 
incredible what the team, the 

1233
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:55,560
team never had any premises out 
there. 

1234
01:31:55,560 --> 01:32:00,760
So for two years they used to 
fly out and prep the cars out 

1235
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:05,320
the back of a truck. 
They had a couple of trucks out 

1236
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:09,560
there with all those spares and 
they would, they would go to the

1237
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:14,200
circuit early, get into the 
paddock and prep the cars and 

1238
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:16,680
they would fly backwards and 
forwards. 

1239
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:20,760
So to win and it was hugely 
competitive out there. 

1240
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:24,360
You know, Anthony Reed was 
there, Tom Christensen was 

1241
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:30,320
there, Justin Bell, Mikhail Krum
was there, Andrew Gilbert Scott,

1242
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:34,600
there was a lot of good fast 
drivers apart from all the 

1243
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:38,680
Japanese, like secure and people
like that. 

1244
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:42,680
So that was very satisfying to 
win that championship. 

1245
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:49,920
So lots and lots of great sort 
of memories to look back on one 

1246
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:51,640
individual. 
I don't think so. 

1247
01:32:51,640 --> 01:32:55,280
There's too many. 
Yeah, that's fair, especially 

1248
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,320
with such a varied career that 
you've had you. 

1249
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:02,800
Know yeah, you know, and I I 
loved the the last bit of my 

1250
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:08,640
career with the with the sort of
prototypes and the the the sort 

1251
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:13,160
of I don't know what it was 
called FIA world sports car GT 

1252
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:18,320
championship, you know again we 
were racing around the world and

1253
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:23,840
I had a teammate like JJ. 
It was Snitzer running the car. 

1254
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:27,920
It was just just mega. 
Yeah, a beautiful car. 

1255
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:32,080
That long till McLaren as well. 
Yeah, I want 1 little story. 

1256
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:36,680
I I'd tell you that car clubs 
that you know, you you you'd be 

1257
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,280
driving for Zack speed and 
something would happen that 

1258
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:42,200
you'd be on the happy about with
the with the car. 

1259
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,360
Something could go wrong or 
something wasn't done and you'd 

1260
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:48,320
say under your breath, I bet 
this doesn't happen at 

1261
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:50,440
Schnitzer. 
I think you'd get to Schnitzer 

1262
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:53,440
and you know, a similar thing 
would happen. 

1263
01:33:53,440 --> 01:33:57,360
You'd say, I bet this doesn't 
happen at, you know, in F1. 

1264
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:02,200
And then obviously then I 
started working for McLaren and 

1265
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:09,200
then Williams with them and them
preparing cars and we would test

1266
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:12,840
with Patrick Head and some of 
the F1 engineers and then 

1267
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:18,480
saintly Gordon Murray. 
And the difference is it all 

1268
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:25,080
does happen the same, but it's, 
it's far more sophisticated when

1269
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,360
the problem goes wrong and it's 
covered up. 

1270
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:31,160
And I think we've Formula One, 
it never happens again. 

1271
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:36,200
Whereas often with a touring car
team, you know, the same problem

1272
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:38,880
will already occur. 
But doesn't matter where you 

1273
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:42,920
are, you're, you know, I 
remember a mechanic once saying 

1274
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:47,200
to me, oh, well, it's all right.
You know I've made that mistake,

1275
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:50,080
but you're a driver. 
You know, I'm the mechanic. 

1276
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:52,840
You know, it's not my fault I 
made a mistake. 

1277
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:55,360
I said, well, hang on a minute, 
he said. 

1278
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:58,640
He said, well, you sometimes 
crash. 

1279
01:34:58,640 --> 01:35:01,880
I said yeah, but I got a 
millisecond to make a decision 

1280
01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:05,840
and sometimes I get it wrong. 
I said you've got 24 hours and 

1281
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:11,040
you still get it wrong. 
And that's where we'll leave it 

1282
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,880
for this week's episode of 
Stories from Super Touring. 

1283
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:17,560
A huge thank you to Steve Sopa 
for joining us and sharing his 

1284
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:21,800
incredible journey and career 
with us for this week's episode.

1285
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:25,080
Steve, thank you. 
OK, let me know when it's going 

1286
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:27,800
out. 
I will do, Steve, and thank you 

1287
01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:31,040
to everyone who has listened to 
this week's episode of the 

1288
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:33,480
podcast. 
If you've enjoyed this episode, 

1289
01:35:33,480 --> 01:35:36,960
make sure you follow and 
subscribe wherever you get your 

1290
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,400
podcasts on your podcast app of 
choice. 

1291
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:42,720
And please leave us a review. 
They really, really help. 

1292
01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:46,960
If you want even more stories, 
exclusive insights and bonus 

1293
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:52,600
content, join our Paddock Club 
on patreonpatreon.com/super 

1294
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,240
Touring Pod, where you'll gain 
exclusive access to our new 

1295
01:35:56,240 --> 01:36:00,040
podcast series, the Super 
Touring Years, which as voted 

1296
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:03,280
for by our listeners. 
We'll be focusing on the 1998 

1297
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:06,560
BTCC and Super Touring seasons 
around the globe. 

1298
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:11,080
You'll also get exclusive access
to our new Watch Along series. 

1299
01:36:11,480 --> 01:36:14,960
Anyway, we'll be back next week 
with more voices, more memories 

1300
01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:17,120
and more stories from Super 
Touring. 

1301
01:36:17,480 --> 01:36:17,960
Goodbye.