1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360 How do I use my knowledge of a range of strategies, and how do 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,360 I use my knowledge of the task to purposefully direct my 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,000 thinking and to monitor my thinking to support success with 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,120 that task? It's really concrete. 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,600 You know, you could, you could, these are terms that we can use 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,640 as teachers and in classrooms to support pupils in developing 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,360 certain approaches. You know, I think probably, you 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,000 know, obviously you guys have been in the game for a while. 9 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,200 We would have called this independence back in the day, 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,320 but unhelpfully so because, well, what does that really? 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Mean, you know, meta cognitive strategies help writing become 12 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:40,400 more transparent, more accessible, and help, you know, 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,000 help people just get a sense of, of control over over that 14 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,600 process. Reluctance in writing is a very 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,280 special kind of basis and that you think it's made particularly 16 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,520 frustrating both for probably the learner and the the teacher. 17 00:01:12,730 --> 00:01:15,090 Welcome to Think EDD of our Primary Education, the podcast 18 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:17,130 that makes time space think about pedagogy, teaching and 19 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:18,370 learning, professional development. 20 00:01:18,770 --> 00:01:21,130 Anything of interest or time for an enthusiasm rich primary 21 00:01:21,130 --> 00:01:23,770 teachers. This week I am joined by Jen 22 00:01:23,770 --> 00:01:26,530 Sutherland and Donny Morrison as we explored metacognition in 23 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:29,770 writing and what that might mean for our practice in school and 24 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:34,920 in particular the classroom now. Jen and Donny were very kind in 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,280 donating a session for our Tadape online conference. 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,440 Tickets can be found by the link in the the description. 27 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,040 We've got sessions from Rachel Ball, Nellie Hahn, I'm callback 28 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,480 Sure Welsh, Matt Hinckley, Kitty Moral, Jason Amber Gottfried, 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Donnie Morris and Jeff Sullivan and we've got more on the way 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,680 in. So if you're interested in 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,760 online and on demand professional development 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,120 opportunities, click the link, go to the Eventbrite and you'll 33 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,440 be given access to all of those and anything that we add to the 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,200 the page over the next 12 months. 35 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,400 So without further ado, let's get straight into today's 36 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:14,160 episode. Jane and Dolly, it's lovely to 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,240 see you today. Hi, we both. 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:17,480 We are great. Thank you. 39 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,000 Thank you. For having. 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,080 Us Thanks for having us. Now, my pleasure. 41 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,000 So obviously you guys have spoken at a couple of Tatabay 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,440 conferences and we've been. So it's not talking about, we're 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,720 going to have this conversation for a while. 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,080 And so, yeah, so it's really good to finally find the time to 45 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:31,800 do so. Absolutely. 46 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks Kieran. 47 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,080 I mean, as it's your first time, I thought probably makes sense 48 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:39,840 for us to start with a little bit about who you are and how 49 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,720 you got here today. Yeah, hi, it's my name's Jen 50 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,960 Sutherland and I am a primary teacher. 51 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880 I am Co director of Luminary literacy with Donnie and I am 52 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:54,400 also teaching learning and literacy consultant. 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,000 So I've been in primary education for about coming up to 54 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,160 18 years now. I've spent the bulk of that in 55 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,240 schools as a primary teacher in Yashid and simulator. 56 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,440 I then spent some time in teacher education and then in 57 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,640 school development, but I then moved into teaching and learning 58 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:11,400 consultancy and literacy consultancy. 59 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,240 So I sort of divide my time now between working on luminary 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,120 literacy and supporting schools sort of across the country with 61 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,480 teaching and learning expertise, developing teaching and learning 62 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,160 and literacy expertise. But also I spent every Thursday 63 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,880 and Friday with a brilliant bunch of year five children down 64 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,920 in South London who very much keep me on my toes. 65 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,200 So yeah, that's a little bit about myself, my backgrounds, 66 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,520 Kieran. And for me, similar to Jen, I've 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,520 been, yeah, must have been, yes, similar. 18 come up to 18 years 68 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,400 in education. Big chunk of that has been as a 69 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,120 primary school teacher. I've been lucky enough to teach 70 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,920 in all key stages, including early years. 71 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,000 I've worked as an English subject lead, senior leader, key 72 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,560 stage leader. And for the last good chunk, 73 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,520 I've been working as a literacy consultant, doing lots of 74 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,480 travelling and working with teachers and the particular, you 75 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,360 know, passion for literacy curriculum design and pedagogy. 76 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,320 Yeah. So yeah, excited to be here. 77 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,080 You guys, you're working together for a company and you 78 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,720 decided you're actually going to go be brave and go out on your 79 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,920 own and try and help schools. That's it. 80 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,519 Oh, I should have added as well. I'm also Co director of luminary 81 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:20,880 literacy too. Yeah, yes, that's for a new. 82 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,800 Company we're really excited about it, but all about sort of 83 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,840 expert literacy support for primary schools with a 84 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,640 particular focus on writing. So our sort of evidence forms of 85 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,960 secrets writer quick limit is a big arm or kind of what we do. 86 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,240 Yeah. And so I mean like reading and 87 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,840 writing are always of great interest to the sadapi audience. 88 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:41,320 You know, everyone always really keen to to learn more because 89 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,800 it's one of those ones where, you know, you need a lot of 90 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,600 specialist knowledge to support pupils with one of the most 91 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,200 difficult things that they'll possibly encounter. 92 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,960 And we're going to focus on writing as opposed to the whole 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,160 of literacy because I know that that's very broad. 94 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,440 Legacy rightly said, Yeah, when we were talking, you know, one, 95 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,040 one episode is is not isn't it? There's not a conversation about 96 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,040 literacy, Mack. So we will we'll maybe cover 97 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,400 that over the next couple of years or so. 98 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,400 I. Yeah, Part 2. 99 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,400 At some point, perhaps, yeah. I love the Part 2 yeah because 100 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,960 yeah, if I always come back to things over over extended period 101 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,400 of time and see how things and then comes with this big sort of 102 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,040 final ethnographic graphic record. 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,360 But we're going to look at metacognition in writing and 104 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,880 always makes sense to start with definitions. 105 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,040 What do we mean when we say meta cognition in? 106 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,880 Yeah, I suppose it would probably make even more sense to 107 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,800 just zoom out even further for a moment and just talk about 108 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,920 metacognition and cognition more generally, and then zoom back in 109 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,480 and talk about metacognition in writing. 110 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,440 And I think whenever we talk about metacognition and 111 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,280 cognition in training, we tend to draw a lot on the EEF meta 112 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:45,240 Cognition and Self Regulated Learning guidance report that 113 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,560 tends to be really useful in terms of making what could be to 114 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,840 potentially quite complex concepts that a little bit more 115 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:53,840 accessible for teachers and leaders. 116 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,360 And so if we think about cognition using the definition 117 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,880 from that report, cognition is all about the knowledge of the 118 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,040 content and the concepts required to be successful with a 119 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,360 specific task. So in literacy, this might be 120 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,160 knowledge of how an adjective functions and basic knowledge of 121 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,120 how to use an adjective to modify a noun. 122 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,640 Or it might be knowledge of the function of an adverbial. 123 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,480 And it might be the knowledge of how to use an adverbial to 124 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,000 extend or to expand a clause to add some detail. 125 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,000 So that will be the cognition side of things. 126 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,280 Then we've got the meta cognition, which goes beyond 127 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,240 what do I know and need to be able to do? 128 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,280 And it goes into how do I use my knowledge of myself as a 129 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,760 learner? How do I use my knowledge of a 130 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,600 range of strategies, and how do I use my knowledge of a task to 131 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,280 purposefully direct my thinking and to monitor my thinking to 132 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,840 support success with that task. And those meta cognitive 133 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,840 strategies tend to fall broadly into 3 categories of planning, 134 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:57,360 monitoring, and evaluating. So how do I plan and monitor and 135 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,560 evaluate my thinking to support myself to be successful with a 136 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,960 task? But then if we sort of really 137 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,000 zoom in and we bring that into the context of writing 138 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,480 specifically, some metacognitive strategies and writing might be, 139 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,120 and there are many writing is full of metacognitive 140 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,120 strategies, but I'll try to outline, I'll go for five key 141 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,600 strategies here. So one metacognitive strategy in 142 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,960 writing might be just generating ideas for writing in the 1st 143 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,160 place. So coming up with things to 144 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,800 write about. And we know that real life 145 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,080 writers, when they they get going with writing, they will 146 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,640 draw on a whole range of sources. 147 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,480 And they're coming up with ideas for writing. 148 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,560 So they will draw on their life experience. 149 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,720 They might think about events that they've lived through. 150 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,920 They might think about places that they've been to or 151 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,000 conversations that they've had. But they also might draw upon 152 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,160 books that they've read or films or TV that they've seen, or even 153 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,600 games that they've played. And they might draw upon that 154 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,000 whole range of sorts of sources to help them to generate those 155 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,080 ideas for writing. And that would be a 156 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,680 metacognitive strategy because it is somebody planning their 157 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,600 thinking to support them to be successful with a task. 158 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,040 And I think that links quite nicely into just planning more 159 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,400 generally as a meta cognitive strategy because there are so 160 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,200 many ways to plan for writing. You might plan through talk, you 161 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,320 might plan through drawing pictures. 162 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,920 You might plan through play. You might plan through sort of, 163 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:24,880 I see. You might plan through 164 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,520 discussion. You might plan through drama. 165 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,600 You might plan through words and phrases. 166 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,040 And then if you're planning through words and phrases, you 167 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,520 might also go into bullet points and organizational devices and 168 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,799 things like that as well. There are so many different 169 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,600 strategies and ways that you could use to plan a piece of 170 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,520 writing. And again, that is all a meta 171 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,040 cognitive strategy. Another key meta cognitive 172 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,320 strategy in writing would actually just be turning your 173 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,800 thoughts into words and sentences and into paragraphs, 174 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,600 that sort of function for the reader. 175 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,440 So we might have a thought in our head of what it is that we 176 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,640 want to write about, but are we able to turn that into a 177 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,560 functioning sentence or actually into a sequence of cohesive and 178 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,640 coherent sentences to form a paragraph? 179 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,720 And oral composition can often be a really important part of 180 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,720 that. Or we might also have that kind 181 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,640 of rehearsal that we have on a whiteboard as well when we 182 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,840 sometimes rehearse a sentence or a paragraph before we commit it 183 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,400 to paper. And again, that's all part of 184 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,520 planning and monitoring that thinking process. 185 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,560 I think a really huge 1 when it comes to metacognitive 186 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:37,960 strategies for writing would be knowing how to use a range of 187 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,240 resources to support your writing. 188 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,440 So by that range of resources, that might be the teachers live 189 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,080 modelling, it might be resources on the working rules such as 190 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,920 scaffolds and vocabulary banks. It might be drawing upon a 191 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,320 mental text, it might be drawing on previous learning in your 192 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:56,960 book. So turning back to a previous 193 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,120 lesson, drawing on that too. And I think linked to that is 194 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,400 having that range of strategies to kind of help yourself find a 195 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,400 way through when you get stuck in a piece of writing as well, 196 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,840 and knowing how you can use those resources to help yourself 197 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,640 to get unstuck. And then I think a final sort of 198 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,080 key metacognitive strategy here to touch upon would also be 199 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,280 editing. Editing's always sort of a huge 200 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,120 beast in itself. And, and there is so much to 201 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,000 metacognition when it comes to editing. 202 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,400 But we know that that specific feedback to improve writing is 203 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,720 such an important part of developing writers. 204 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,640 And we know that effective feedback doesn't just improve 205 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,440 the writing as a task, it actually develops the writer in 206 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,360 terms of them understanding and evaluating which strategies 207 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,440 supported them to be successful in their writing and which 208 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,040 strategies they need to develop moving forward as well. 209 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,480 So that sort of real rigor and meaningful approach when it 210 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,400 comes to editing. So that sort of an overview is 211 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,160 definitely not a comprehensive list, but as an overview of some 212 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,640 key metacognitive strategies when it comes to writing. 213 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,280 And I think the reason that we're so interested in these 214 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,680 metacognitive strategies is that through our observations and 215 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,000 experiences of working with schools where there's no 216 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,320 specific focus on writing, we have found that the strategies 217 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,720 can quite easily be overlooked actually in terms of like the 218 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,680 attention paid to them when it comes to explicit teaching and 219 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,800 developing new strategies for pupils. 220 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,800 And this is something we've noticed through being in schools 221 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,880 ourselves and having countless conversations with teachers when 222 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:30,840 we're having those conversations. 223 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,840 And teachers are saying to me things like children just, you 224 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,760 know, they just don't know how to draw upon the model or where 225 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,840 they might be commenting and saying things like people's just 226 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,200 get that real fear when they open their book and they've got 227 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,040 to get writing. And even though they've got a 228 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,120 plan that they have completed, they still don't quite know how 229 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,560 to turn that plan into a piece of writing on the page in front 230 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:53,560 of them. So we're almost on a bit of a 231 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:56,760 mission to really delve into these master cognitive 232 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,560 strategies and writing and to think about how important they 233 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,600 are for developing children as writers in primary school. 234 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,480 So that's a a bit of an overview, high level overview of 235 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:10,600 of what we're meaning when we talk about metal cognitive 236 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,200 strategies specifically in writing a primary. 237 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,600 What I really like is that it's, it's really concrete. 238 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,560 You know, you can, you can, you're, these are terms that we 239 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,520 can use as teachers and, and in classrooms to support pupils in 240 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,800 developing certain approaches. You know, I think probably, you 241 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,240 know, you obviously you guys have been in the game for a 242 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,960 while. We would have called this 243 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,440 independence back in the day, but unhelpfully so because, 244 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,200 well, what does that really mean? 245 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,160 You know, But oh, that people's a bit more independent. 246 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,800 Actually. He's got the pupils able to 247 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,120 utilize the, the tools and strategies you've described, 248 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,520 Jen. So I think what I really like 249 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,040 with that definition is that it allows us to work with it. 250 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,200 Because my worry with metacognition when it first sort 251 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,240 of came out was that it was a bit of a buzzword and it didn't 252 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,080 really mean anything. But actually what you've 253 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,120 described means a lot and actually can be. 254 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,680 I can see how that can be really helpful for for teachers. 255 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,920 Yeah, it's funny. Metacognition can feel like 256 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,000 something that's quite opaque in it, accessible, and it can feel 257 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,200 like a bit of a scary word sometimes if you haven't spent 258 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,360 the time looking into it and doing the research around it. 259 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,640 And I think you're right that actually sometimes, not just 260 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,400 within writing, but I'm sure you'll find the same within 261 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,640 maths and within other subjects. Once we start speaking about 262 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,240 those metacognitive strategies. And as a teacher, you're able to 263 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,800 hear those concrete examples and think about, oh, actually that 264 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,600 is something that I already do in my classroom, or is, or that 265 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,720 isn't something I do at the moment, but something that I can 266 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,360 see that my children definitely need. 267 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,480 So I think there is, yeah, this need to demystify metacognition 268 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,840 a little bit and make it that bit more concrete and accessible 269 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,280 to teachers. Absolutely. 270 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,640 And you can see especially with the with the blank page and 271 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,040 writer's block, I think I can see how it's been really, really 272 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,480 powerful. Why is it worth? 273 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,440 I mean, we started to branch, branch into this. 274 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,000 Why is it worth spending time on this in the classroom? 275 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,600 I might jump in here, Kieran. I think metacognition can 276 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:58,160 fundamentally change writing for pupils and, you know, writing 277 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,400 should be a means of communication ultimately, and 278 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,920 allowing pupils to express themselves, their, their 279 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,600 thoughts, their opinions, their ideas to to the written word 280 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,280 and, you know, for range of varied, you know, purposes and 281 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,160 audiences. And as educators, we would want 282 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,440 this to feel like a really intentional and purposeful 283 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,160 process. You know, something that pupils 284 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,560 can achieve that's achievable and that can help them achieve 285 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,680 something, whatever that that is, you know, might be aiming to 286 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,320 make their audience laugh, entertain their audience, inform 287 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,720 their audience of something important, you know, whatever 288 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,120 their purpose. We want this process to be 289 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,680 something intentional for pupils. 290 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:53,520 But we know, you know, that for a lot of pupils in writing might 291 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,080 feel like, you know, a box ticking exercise where they're 292 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,320 cramming in as many features or aspects in the writing to get 293 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,760 another piece of writing done and completed. 294 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,680 So it can become very product orientated and focused rather 295 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,840 than than process orientated. And I think, you know, 296 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:18,240 metacognitive strategies shine a spotlight on on the the process 297 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,280 of writing and, and, you know, developing the writer rather 298 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:28,880 than a single piece of writing. You know, writing is or learning 299 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,840 to write, I guess is a journey. And I get, you know, and many 300 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,560 writers would agree that it's a lifelong journey at that. 301 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:41,920 And in also cognitive strategies can really support and have 302 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,480 significant impact on people's confidence and their motivation 303 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,040 for for a people who might be struggling with writing, that 304 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,520 might the overwhelming feeling might be that writing is 305 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,440 something that's largely mysterious and overwhelming. 306 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,960 And not that they know that they're finding it difficult, 307 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,000 but in the harder layer there, as well as not knowing why 308 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,200 they're finding it difficult, they might be asking themselves 309 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,400 questions like, you know, why is my sentence not making sense? 310 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,960 Why, why are my paragraphs or my section of writing not coherent 311 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,600 or, or, or cohesive? Why is my writing ultimately not 312 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,480 having the impact that I thought it might have on my audience? 313 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,000 And I think, you know, meta cognitive strategies help 314 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,520 writing become more, you know, transparent, more accessible and 315 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,840 help, you know, help people get a sense of, of control over over 316 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,600 that process. And I really love Jennifer 317 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Webb's book, the Meta, the Metacognition Handbook. 318 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,440 And I know I'm paraphrasing a little bit here, but I love this 319 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,960 analogy said, it's like learning to drive your own brain, which 320 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,720 is also really helpful in analogy there. 321 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,640 So it's about controlling, helping people get control of 322 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,480 that, that writing process. And we know that there is also a 323 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,160 strong link between confidence and motivation. 324 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,000 We know that past success and, you know, experiences of success 325 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,400 will ultimately develop a pupil's motivation if they feel 326 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,880 they're more likely to be successful the next time around. 327 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,119 So that's that's really important. 328 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,960 And you know, if you repeatedly experience something as 329 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,359 difficult, mysterious, confusing, unpredictable, even 330 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,920 you, you're less likely to invest effort in it, in that 331 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,880 task, in that learning in the future. 332 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,640 And you and a lot of pupils will start to internalize that that 333 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,400 belief that I am not only I'm not a good writer, but I'm not a 334 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:47,120 writer, you know, And conversely, if you have those 335 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:53,560 experiences of success through, you know, having a range of 336 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,160 metacognitive strategies, you're more likely to feel more 337 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,680 motivated to write in the future. 338 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,520 And conversely, you know, you're more likely to internalize the 339 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,080 idea that I am a good writer and that I am a writer. 340 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,240 And so, you know, we're getting into, I think self regulation 341 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,360 here, which is also a big part of metacognition about, you 342 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,240 know, self regulated writer is someone that's aware and can 343 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,680 manage their motivation and their thoughts and their 344 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,720 learning and writing. Behaviors reluctance in writing 345 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,960 is a very special kind of beast, isn't it? 346 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,600 You know, whenever people decides to opt out, you know, I 347 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,120 think across most of the curriculum, you know it, it 348 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,040 manifests in a certain way. But in writing, I think it's 349 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,000 been particularly frustrating both for probably the learner 350 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,280 and the, the teacher. And, and so this, this, this 351 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,280 awareness of your capacity and that, that like you say, I know, 352 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,880 and the, the idea that success allows yourself perception to 353 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,800 develop, you know, I think that that's crucial, you know, 354 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,400 because then because students are starting to identify as 355 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,440 writers, then they become writers because they're, they're 356 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,560 writing more, you know, just like we're reading more, just 357 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,000 like we're doing more maths, you know, the more you do it, the 358 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:04,600 the better you're likely to get. What strategies can be used to 359 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,520 develop pupil metacognitive thinking in writing? 360 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,320 And maybe there there may be different elements to this when 361 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,400 we think of a different people. So almost like if I've got the 362 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,400 pupil who's look at the pH and doesn't want to write, is that 363 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,160 strategy different from the pupil who is writing but perhaps 364 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,640 doesn't have an awareness of that? 365 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,760 They're just churning out seven pages of, you know, repetition. 366 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,720 You know that that them you know, they're writing for the 367 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,040 sake of account thing. Is there a distinction to be 368 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,880 drawn or is it just a hot journey in general? 369 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,880 I. Think it's a bit of both. 370 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,960 And I think you know that knowledge and that understanding 371 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,080 of your pupils as individuals and as writers. 372 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,240 Obviously you can certainly guide what what you want to 373 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,080 prioritize in terms of teaching lesser cognitive strategies. 374 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,320 But at the same time, I would say that our first step as 375 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,360 teachers and as schools is just to explicitly teach those 376 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,400 strategies full stop. And I would say that's really 377 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,200 where we want to begin here because I think at the moment 378 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,360 sometimes it's easy to make assumptions. 379 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,160 About the, the meta cognitive strategies that you want 380 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,400 children to have in your class. And so we might have 381 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,360 conversations where teachers might say, and I've definitely 382 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,120 said myself, you know, children that they don't know how to use 383 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,880 the plan or they don't know how to draw upon the model or they 384 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,320 can't come up with ideas. And I think there's a little bit 385 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,840 of reframing for us to do here within primary writing where 386 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,000 instead of saying we don't know how to, we say, well, they 387 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,480 haven't been taught to, they haven't been taught how to draw 388 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,160 upon the model. They haven't been taught how to 389 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,160 use their plan to craft a piece of writing that. 390 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,920 That is our responsibility in primary education to explicitly 391 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,600 teach those meta cognitive strategies. 392 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,680 And so I would say #1 is actually for us just to 393 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,960 explicitly teach those strategies as part of those that 394 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,400 process, obviously, we will be modelling the strategies and 395 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,160 then providing ample opportunities for practice and 396 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,920 for feedback as well. And then I think linked to that, 397 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,240 some work that we're doing at Luminary and something we've 398 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,160 been working on with a couple of schools as well is actually 399 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,040 thinking really deeply about those metacognitive strategies 400 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,520 and how what progression of that those might look like throughout 401 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,160 a child's time at primary school. 402 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,640 So with one school, we've just been thinking about that 403 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,840 specifically within the strand of planning when we think about 404 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,000 the writing process. So when we mention the writing 405 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,080 process, we tend to use the one that is set out in the writing 406 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,640 framework of planning, drafting, revising, editing and sharing. 407 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,760 So that's that sort of five stage process. 408 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,560 So with one school, we've just been really focusing on what are 409 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,560 the metacognitive strategies that we want children to develop 410 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,360 in the planning stage of the writing process from year 1 all 411 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,240 the way up to year 6. So first of all, just thinking 412 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,360 about sort of year one, key stage one in year 1, we want 413 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:53,760 children to be able to plan their writing through talk, 414 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,160 through play, through drama, and through pictures. 415 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,400 And that's that for year one. OK. 416 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,200 And then we will be moving to year 2. 417 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,360 And then we think right now we're in Year 2, we might have 418 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,520 children to start to bring some words and phrases into their 419 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,480 planning for writing. And then as we move into year 3 420 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,400 and 4, then we start to think about children start to be able 421 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,280 to plan in note form and actually explicitly teaching how 422 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,840 to plan in note form. And then as we get up into year 423 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,440 five and six, teaching children how to use a range of 424 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,880 organizational devices, so such as bullet points to plan in note 425 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,760 form as well. So there's something there about 426 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,640 being really specific and intentional in terms of sort of 427 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,880 mapping out, breaking down and mapping out the metacognitive 428 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,920 strategies that you want to teach to pupils in each year 429 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,880 group. Because the more that you 430 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,280 specify in sequence those strategies, the easier it makes 431 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,840 for you as a teacher to be able to explicitly teach them. 432 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,560 So I think another example within that that I mentioned 433 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,040 earlier is that using a range of resources to support your 434 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,200 writing. So in key stage one, that might 435 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,360 look like using a common exception word resource. 436 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,600 It might look like using lesser formation sort of resource of 437 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,920 some kind, perhaps a phonics resource. 438 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,920 It might be using the teacher model to a certain extent and 439 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,480 then perhaps some scaffolds from the working wall. 440 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:14,880 And that really is probably enough for key Stage 1. 441 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,240 Because if you think about our 5-6 and seven-year olds who are 442 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,360 mastering the fundamentals of transcription and composition, 443 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,480 any more than that is likely to be quite cognitively overloading 444 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,280 actually. And then as we move into years 445 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,560 three and four, we might think about other resources we want 446 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,840 children to draw on. So perhaps by year three and 447 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,000 four, we are at a stage where we can teach them how to draw upon 448 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,200 a mental text. Perhaps we can also teach them 449 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,520 to draw upon their learning from earlier on in a sequence. 450 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,680 So a child can sort of flick back in a book to 2 pages and 451 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,440 go, oh, right, brilliant. I'm going to use some of those 452 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,040 relative clauses in my writing today. 453 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,160 And then as we get into year five and six, it may be that 454 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,120 children can draw upon learning not just from that sequence, but 455 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,800 actually from a previous sequence. 456 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,800 So they might be writing a story, a story where they're 457 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,720 building suspense and they think, well, wait a minute, in 458 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,720 September we did some work around building suspense. 459 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,360 So I'm going to turn back brilliant. 460 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,320 I've got some devices for building suspense here. 461 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,480 I'm going to see if I can bring some of those across. 462 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,880 Or it might even be how a child can draw upon wider literature 463 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,240 to support them during the drafting process. 464 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,040 So perhaps they're writing an action story and they're 465 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,880 thinking, do you know what? I read a brilliant action book. 466 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,000 It's Open Book Corner. I'm going to go and grab that 467 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,400 and turn to this chapter, and that's going to support me with 468 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,080 that writing. But again, it's being really 469 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,400 intentional, intentional thinking about during the 470 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,120 drafting process in terms of drawing upon a range of 471 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,720 resources to support my writing. What do we want that to actually 472 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,200 look like in each year group? And once we've specified and 473 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,360 sequenced that, then it makes it easier for us to explicitly 474 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:50,400 teach that and those strategies and provide those opportunities 475 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,800 for practice and feedback. So I've talked there at quite 476 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,720 like a high level, a whole school kind of picture level. 477 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,480 I think if you're a teacher and you're thinking, but what does 478 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,800 this mean for me in my classroom tomorrow? 479 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,160 Where do I start with this? You might just take one 480 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,680 metacognitive strategy and start thinking about how do I 481 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,720 explicitly teach this and how do I to provide those opportunities 482 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,640 for practice and feedback. So a classic one that always 483 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,080 comes up in conversations with teachers in training, one that 484 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,160 we've experienced ourselves is around the children struggling 485 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,240 to know how to draw on the models, craft their own 486 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,080 independent piece of writing. You tend to get children who 487 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,760 struggle with this falling into two counts here. 488 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320 You get children who don't use the model at all, and then you 489 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,000 get the children who just copy the model and they might swap in 490 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,120 and out kind of 1 adjective from time to time. 491 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,960 And quite often the key reason for that is that we haven't 492 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,520 actually explicitly taught children how to draw upon a 493 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,920 model to craft a piece of writing. 494 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,200 So that might look like actually getting a model of writing up on 495 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,720 the Interactive Whiteboard for you as a teacher, getting your 496 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,160 flip chart out and actually really demonstrating a process 497 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,720 to children of how I'm going to draw upon certain features of 498 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,880 language and certain structural features from this model to 499 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,400 craft my own piece of writing, bringing in my own ideas and my 500 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,200 own words and bringing in my own sentence structures as well. 501 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,760 And as you're doing that, sharing that thinking process 502 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,560 out loud really explicitly for pupils so that they're more 503 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,000 likely to be able to replicate that thinking process, that meta 504 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:32,080 cognitive thinking process. So I think that real focus on 505 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,080 explicit teaching practice and feedback is so important. 506 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,480 And that's often what's missing here. 507 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,440 And as I say, you might be thinking about that at a whole 508 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,840 school key stage or at a class level. 509 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,680 But then I think linked back to what you said earlier, there 510 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,960 will also be pupils in your class who will benefit from 511 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,480 different sort of focuses on different strategies when it 512 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,640 comes to developing that those meta cognitive strategies. 513 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,800 Because as you said, you might have the writer who rushes ahead 514 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,480 and gets loads and loads of words down on the page, but 515 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,640 perhaps needs some real support with ensuring that their writing 516 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,760 is coherent and cohesive. That's what your focus might be 517 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,640 for that child, but you might also have a child who is the 518 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,880 opposite and just struggles to get words down and struggles to 519 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,920 get started with her writing in the first place. 520 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,640 So that child, it might be far more about how do I use my plan 521 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,040 to get started with a piece of writing. 522 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,680 So I think that there are generic universal and sort of 523 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,960 meta cognitive strategies that can help all writers. 524 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,800 But within that you're likely to have different priorities based 525 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,680 upon your knowledge of the P equals as writers as well. 526 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,920 So yeah, that would that would be the whole, the the sort of 527 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,320 big pitch that I would give them in terms of where you might 528 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,600 start with that. I think you've done well to give 529 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,200 the, the teacher wants to try this out tomorrow or improve 530 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,360 this in their own practice, some guidance. 531 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,160 But like what's immediately apparent is how complicated this 532 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,440 is and how old school in nature this is. 533 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,480 You know, this is a literacy lead thinking about what does 534 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,240 this look like across the school because you know, there's only 535 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,400 so much one person can do. And if, you know, there are ways 536 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,880 to develop this right from nursery through to sex and 537 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,360 obviously beyond, that's a that's a whole, a unified 538 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:18,280 journey or a coherent journey that needs to be told or needs 539 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,720 to be developed across the school. 540 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,240 You know, So, you know, I think that there there's a limit. 541 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:23,800 So what we can do in the classroom, obviously we can 542 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,240 develop business students, but you're going to, you know, if I 543 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,400 see if everyone's working on this together, they're probably 544 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,640 getting a whole lot more from the school. 545 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,480 Is that your experience? So whenever you're in schools 546 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,320 working on this kind of thing. Completely agree. 547 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,480 I would say that's almost the ideal, isn't it? 548 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,440 That, that, that whole school sequential picture of 549 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,160 progression. But we know that this is even 550 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,120 the kind of idea of meta cognition, meta cognitive 551 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,560 strategies in writing is something that is still fairly 552 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,880 new to us. I would say kind of in primary 553 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,760 English and with a lot of schools as well. 554 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,560 And, and so you've got a lot of schools who are at the much 555 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,640 earlier stages with this. And it might just be that bit of 556 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,680 thinking at an individual class level. 557 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,120 I don't know if you've got and I think to add to that. 558 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,840 Yeah. And I think it's about just 559 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,520 reflecting as well what that looks like from year group to 560 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,400 year group and how you can explicitly teach and model those 561 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,680 strategies. And, you know, and we do a lot 562 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,240 of thinking around that in terms of what does medical mission 563 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240 writing look like in year 1. And then of course, you want 564 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,480 those strategies to continue. You don't want them to stop when 565 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,360 you're going to move up to year 2, like then when we take that. 566 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,400 And then how do we develop that again in year 2 in the planning 567 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,720 stage, in the drafting stage, you know, in the editing stage 568 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,440 as well. So I think that's really 569 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,480 important to have a really clear intentional idea of of that 570 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,760 process and how it evolves from year one to year 6. 571 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,920 Yeah. So there's almost the ideal 572 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,200 with, with what you would want, but then there's also what might 573 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,240 be more realistic, where an individual teacher or an English 574 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,600 need might be at the moment when, as you know, he spoke at 575 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,920 the beginning of this about English being such a large 576 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,680 subject. And you know, we know that 577 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,680 English needs are contending often with many priorities. 578 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,840 And there are so many aspects, so many elements to the subject 579 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,960 of English. And this is 1 specific area of 580 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,280 writing that we're speaking about. 581 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,280 So I think for us, it's about trying to bring this to the 582 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,240 forefront of teachers and leaders mind a little bit more 583 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:18,800 so that we're shifting the conversation and people are 584 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,600 talking more about it and realizing how important those 585 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,000 strategies are. And then yes, ideally moving 586 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,440 towards that, that little bit more rigour in terms of thinking 587 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,880 about how we might sequence and breakdown those metacognitive 588 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,360 strategies over time. And maybe it's, well, it's about 589 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,400 getting pupils to talk about not just the work that they've 590 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,200 completed in writing, but how they completed it. 591 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,600 You know, those children that are successful at writing, what 592 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,200 strategies are they using? What's working for them so that 593 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,200 they're sharing that and modelling that behaviour and 594 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,320 that writing behaviour as much as having that, having the final 595 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,440 piece published, piece of writing on the wall as well. 596 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,880 There will be people listening, right? 597 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,600 Because I think especially literally it's been thinking, 598 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,680 oh, this, the clarity with what you're both speaking is really 599 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,480 interesting. But then as you've gone on, I 600 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,040 think they're thinking, OK, this is something I want to develop 601 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,480 my school. How do they get in touch with 602 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,440 you guys? I was going to do this at the 603 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,200 end, but actually I think, no, they're probably listed this, 604 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,160 but going, I want to get in touch with them right now. 605 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,400 Where what are they doing? They go to your website or the 606 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:15,920 e-mail here. What's the plan? 607 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,800 Right. Yeah, well, we've got our 608 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,200 website up luminary www.luminaryliteracy.co.uk. 609 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,160 So that's the first port of call. 610 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,960 And from there you can get in touch. 611 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,000 We've got our our e-mail there as well. 612 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,840 So and on the on if you want to find out more about us, you can 613 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,200 see our sort of principles, our approach to, to, to both 614 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,280 consultancy, literacy consultancy, but also on how 615 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,920 we're developing our own writing curriculum and our own writing 616 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,000 pedagogy. And, and we're on LinkedIn as 617 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,080 well, so you and give us a bit of a shout out there. 618 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,560 We are the type of people who will just talk about primary 619 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,800 writing all day long. So, so we're very happy for 620 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,440 anybody to get in touch and even just yeah, to have a 621 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,720 conversation kind of about this moving forward because we're 622 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,040 still very much on this journey ourselves of delving into 623 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,520 medical mission in primary writing, what effective practice 624 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,960 within this looks like. So yeah, very interested to hear 625 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,560 from having further conversations. 626 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,520 Are there any pitfalls that we should be keen to avoid when 627 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,480 we're establishing our approach to the almost the teaching and 628 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,040 utilization of better cognitive strategies within writing? 629 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:33,560 Yet I think probably a classic pitfall would be trying to do 630 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,480 too much and do it too soon. You know, if I put put it in in 631 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,120 a nutshell, and I think a big bit of our advice, you know, 632 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,720 from from a conversation today would be, you know, start small 633 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,480 and give it time. You know, we're thinking long 634 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,960 term for this. So, you know, when, you know, 635 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,560 Jen spoke about the, the, the process of writing was aspects 636 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,880 of writing from planning, drafting, revising and editing. 637 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,920 So maybe it's starting with, and this could be a, you know, a 638 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,040 whole school approach starting with one of those aspects, 639 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,240 right. So we're going to focus in as a 640 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,200 school on the metacognitive strategies around writing and 641 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,760 we're going to approach this strategically. 642 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,120 I could imagine a really great staff meeting where teachers are 643 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,920 encouraged to ask themselves questions like what do these 644 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,840 metacognitive strategies that support planning of writing look 645 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,760 like in my year group for my children and in my class? 646 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,520 What does it look like to model these strategies and to 647 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,360 explicitly teach these strategies? 648 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,200 So I think focusing on one aspect and, and trying to 649 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,400 implement that first and having a shared language or shared 650 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120 understanding across the school is, is probably a really, really 651 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,480 good place to start. Another pitfall that just comes 652 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,840 to mind is, and I think this is a pitfall that can come with 653 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,600 talking about metacognition in any subject. 654 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,040 It's it's you're sort of seeing it in as something separate, you 655 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,480 know, seeing it as something as an add on to to the curriculum, 656 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,200 you know, something that's separate to the curriculum. 657 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,560 And I think it's important to remember that that that 658 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,280 metacognitive strategies are something that has to be 659 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,880 developed in context. And they should not stand 660 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,719 separately from a subject, but permeate that subject just part 661 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,520 of the practice of that of that subject in Yeah, rather than 662 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,239 being an add on. And I think there might be a 663 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:34,520 temptation to have, say, a metacognitive metacognition time 664 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,600 where children might think generically about their meta to 665 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,480 cognition skills they use in learning generally. 666 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,320 Perhaps this might involve them doing, you know, a generic 667 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,040 worksheet or task. And, and, and I think that might 668 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,960 actually be a pitfall because I think metacognitive strategies 669 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,240 are, you know, intimately intertwined with the, the 670 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,360 specific subject that related to, you know, when, and of 671 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,600 course you know, there, there will be overlaps and, and things 672 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,880 that, that are similar in different subjects. 673 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,520 But metacognitive strategies that are, that work in writing 674 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,800 won't be exactly the same as, as the strategies that work in, in 675 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,880 science or PE or maths, you know. 676 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,120 So I, so I think that's really important to keep in mind that 677 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,000 they've got to permeate the subject and be intertwined with 678 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,840 the planning and, and the pedagogy of that subject. 679 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,280 And, you know, in terms of the time frames, I think when we're 680 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,400 working in schools, you know, it's that pressure to get quick 681 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,040 results, you know, and in terms of the, the cycle of time, in 682 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,880 terms in the school year. And, and I think it's important 683 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,280 to remember that this is a long term strategy. 684 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,880 We're really supporting pupils to be lifelong learners, 685 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,240 lifelong writers, you know, as adults, we're still learning 686 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:56,520 about our ourselves as learners as we take on different 687 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,560 challenges and our own our own metacognitive strategies that 688 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,800 work. And actually pupils, some pupils 689 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,440 in some professions might be still in education well up until 690 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,440 the late 20s and 30s in depending on the profession. 691 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,440 So it's taken that long term view and ensuring that we're, 692 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,760 you know, that we are remembering equipping pupils for 693 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,360 for in lifelong learning and hopefully lifelong writing. 694 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,240 I think that's really powerful, particularly the idea of, you 695 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,480 know, I can see us bolting things on and I can. 696 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,680 And if you do that, you've, you know, you've missed the point of 697 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:29,680 what you guys have presented there. 698 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,280 Because it's very clear that there's an intimate relationship 699 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,040 between the behaviour of being a writer and thinking about those 700 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,040 behaviours to within as a means to improving and, and 701 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,280 perpetuating, you know, almost like fuelling future writing. 702 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,400 So, you know, so I think, yeah, but I can totally see that. 703 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,480 I can see each of those. I can see how as a profession we 704 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,280 love to do those things and then. 705 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,080 We love a worksheet. But actually, you know, if it's 706 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,080 connected directly to some particular part of your practice 707 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,560 or your or your, your behavior in writing, it's going to be 708 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,000 much, much more powerful, isn't it? 709 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,560 Yeah. And I think if we're thinking of 710 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,920 that, you know, as a whole school approach that might be 711 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,560 involving different subject leads in thinking what what meta 712 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,600 cognition means for that for their to that subject as well. 713 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,960 I mean, when I say like I'm skeptical or like a worried 714 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,280 about medical condition being a buzzword, it's those kind of 715 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,000 things that worry me, you know? Are we putting enough thought 716 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,680 into this? Actually, I'm really pleased 717 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,080 that we've spoken about this at length because it gives me hope 718 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,920 that actually there are a lot of sensible conversations happening 719 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,840 about and meta cognition and meta cognitive thinking in 720 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,520 writing. Because you know what? 721 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,480 We, yeah, we don't want to actually work for the sake of 722 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:36,480 it. But what you're describing, it's 723 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,520 actually, it's something I wish I was cognizant of myself when I 724 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,440 was teaching writing a lot like Chris, such as work in reading. 725 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,960 I wish that had been on the table whenever I was teaching. 726 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,240 You know, I teach so many kids in a really ineffective way, 727 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,120 basically. I just wonder if you're saying 728 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,880 that like we've had conversations where we've said, 729 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,120 well, you know, this is exactly what we did. 730 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,960 You know that we've, we've had experience of. 731 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,120 So as I said, we're, we're kind of on that learning journey 732 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,360 ourselves. And so like a classic one for 733 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,680 myself was, you know, teaching key stage 1. 734 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,360 I would quite often get children to plan their writing in key 735 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400 stage one through words and phrases when there was still 736 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,640 very much the early stage of developing their transcriptional 737 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,880 skills. And then sometimes going from 738 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,520 planning to drafting, we'd almost be children writing out 739 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,680 the story and then writing out the exact same story afterwards. 740 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,160 So even things sort of such as, such as realizing that actually, 741 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:26,280 you know, where children are at those early stage of 742 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,520 transcription, the best way for them to plan their writing isn't 743 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,080 through writing. It is through drama and talking 744 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,480 and through play as well. So as I said, it's it's been a 745 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,640 journey for us, a journey of reflection for us to kind of 746 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,640 look back on what we've done ourselves as practitioners and 747 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,560 our strategies that we've used previously and to think about 748 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,360 how we might shift our practice moving forward as well. 749 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,120 See, you mentioned LinkedIn and I'm a bit grown, a bit 750 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,360 disillusioned with social media in general, but I do like that 751 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600 I'm going to keep my LinkedIn because I want someone for 752 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,840 people who aren't in touch with me already to get in touch with 753 00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,040 me, to DM me, that kind of thing. 754 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,640 But I am going to try and revive. 755 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,080 I don't know if you guys have heard of Discord. 756 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,960 We've got, it's a DAP, a Discord where this is a really group of 757 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,200 really motivated teachers having conversations. 758 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,480 I want to try and revive it a bit. 759 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,480 So this is unprepared. I want to ask you a question. 760 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,480 Listeners are going to hear the question and then you're going 761 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,680 to cut to the end of the episode. 762 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,080 But then if you go to Discord, there'll be a video of this, of 763 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,400 your answer to this question. And so because like, I think 764 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:29,240 there was a scramble to say that the writing framework is what 765 00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:32,960 we've been doing all along for some groups when that's not 766 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,320 necessarily the case. But actually, I think a lot of 767 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,120 what you've described to me, and I'm just knowing your work in 768 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,120 general, sounds like your work is really complemented because 769 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,120 you're already engaged with the research into effective writing. 770 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,960 But is there anything you've learned from reading the writing 771 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,640 framework that has not actually, this is really going to change 772 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,080 the, the direction of travel for me or my practice in general. 773 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,120 And I'm not expecting to be a massive step because, like I 774 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,000 said, I think you're already on the same page as the writing 775 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,600 framework and but. Is there anything that you know 776 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,760 you've taken away? And I think because I think keen 777 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,640 listeners will be will be really interested to know what your 778 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,360 thinking is on that. And so yeah, any. 779 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,160 Thoughts. Should we leave a dramatic pause 780 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,040 here? What about what it might do is, 781 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,720 you know, you know, you put the feature music in it. 782 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,960 Yeah, in Waves world, that's what's going to happen here. 783 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,720 And then, I mean, it's been absolutely lovely. 784 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,880 I think this is going to be massively useful, really, really 785 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,800 clear, really, really focused. And so I really appreciate that 786 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,800 also to say thank you very much for joining me. 787 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,920 Thanks for having us all. It's been a pleasure. 788 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,960 Thank you. So much Kieran, we hope to see 789 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,440 you again soon. And everyone at home, until next 790 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,800 time, thanks for listening.