1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,200 It feels like it's something that we should do, that we 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:03,600 should know and we should understand. 3 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,120 But. Do they give their definition or 4 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,840 are we saying it's any active assessment that is then acted 5 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,240 upon and makes a change in the in the learners? 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,720 Is that are we putting, are we putting this together based on 7 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,720 the paper or do they articulate in a certain way? 8 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,880 You can end up spending a lot of time digging deeper into an idea 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,120 and really involving lots of students and having rich 10 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,640 discussion and, you know, really unearthing that concept. 11 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,680 And then it's the end of the lesson type of thing. 12 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,360 And and you know, you haven't actually completed that exercise 13 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,160 or whatever was, was. So I again, I do see this and I 14 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,520 think I'm also, I've certainly been guilty of it. 15 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,040 If somebody's got the right answer, I'll just take that 16 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,160 right answer and I'll just move on to the next thing. 17 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,440 And we've got to remember that it's not about sort of, are they 18 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,720 correct? It's about what are they 19 00:00:50,720 --> 00:01:13,440 thinking underneath that? Welcome to thank you to be with 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,400 primary education. The podcast that makes time is 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,240 basically with pedagogy, teaching and learning 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,720 professional development. Anything of interest of time per 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,320 but enthusiasm as primary teachers. 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,320 This week I'm joined by Stewart Welsh. 25 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,360 Good afternoon Kieran, good to be back. 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,200 How are you? Yeah, very well shared. 27 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,280 Very good. You can see him in the sunnier 28 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,320 climbs for the moment, although the southeast thing is pretty 29 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:33,080 sunny as well. How about yourself? 30 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,040 How you doing? Yes, not bad at all. 31 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Just finished a busy day at school and looking forward to 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,040 having a bit of a blather with you on this on this episode. 33 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:43,320 Been a while since we've had a blather. 34 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,840 I've been Belfast in, in research at Guernsey, which was 35 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,120 fantastic. Shout out to the team in 36 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,280 Guernsey if they're listening. And then straight over to the 37 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,520 the cost of Del Sol. It's a it's a hard life, isn't 38 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,840 it, you know? Yeah, I hope you're not looking 39 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,960 for any sympathy here. The best I've managed is is 40 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,480 Elgin. That's been the furthest I've 41 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,520 travelled. So jet set lifestyle for you. 42 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,560 Kieran, are you heading home? Yeah, yeah, head on Friday and 43 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,479 then by the time this episode goes out, I will be knee deep in 44 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:10,880 a nine year old's birthday party. 45 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,880 So then the sympathy can come. So Saturday morning, if you 46 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,760 listen to this, you know, prayer for Kieran, we're going to 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,640 explore formative assessment. End of last year there was a 48 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:29,360 meta analysis, almost a summary paper on the use of formative 49 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,440 assessments, the ills and the the benefits for those who are 50 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,840 interested in following along. It's by Maskos, Schultz, Xwez 51 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,760 and Ricozi and it's formative assessment of mathematics 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,840 education, a systematic review. Stewart, what is the premise of 53 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,680 this paper? Great, Kieran. 54 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,440 So, you know, formative assessment never, it really 55 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,560 seems to go away, but I think that a lot of people involved in 56 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,680 education, if you were to try and pin them down to a 57 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,720 definition, might give you a slightly different response. 58 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,000 It feels like it's something that we should do, that we 59 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,400 should know and we should understand. 60 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,120 But I think this paper has done a useful thing for us because 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,880 it's really tried to to dig into, you know, going beyond the 62 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,960 claim that formative assessment is good, it works and you should 63 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,440 do it. And it's tried to sort of 64 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,520 interrogate, you know, what different types of formative 65 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,760 assessment might look like and what is more effective and what 66 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,520 is perhaps less effective, you know, and, and it, it does help 67 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:30,320 focus our sort of definition of, of formative assessment. 68 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,960 You know, there's a lot of techniques that, you know, 69 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,960 teachers have been exposed to and are continuing to be exposed 70 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,080 to. But I think this paper is a 71 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,760 chance for us to to pause and really look at, you know, the 72 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,600 the efficacy of those techniques and if there are little tweaks 73 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,760 and adjustments to our practice that can actually make those 74 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,000 techniques a bit more impactful. I think it's reasonably subtle, 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,440 but it goes after some you have some big claims at the start. 76 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,760 I was good will I am and black from the late 90s and then Hadi 77 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,240 obviously from the early thousands and the you know, so 78 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,320 the the I suppose the talk of effect sizes as mathematicians, 79 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,680 we're not 100% certain whether or not we put much stock in 80 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,280 them, but you know, they're they're not rude, but they're 81 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,880 saying there are big claims. We have our form of assessment. 82 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,920 This paper has been designed to really to do what a good man and 83 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,840 I should do and to bring light where perhaps there's a perhaps 84 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,600 there is none or, you know, assumptions perhaps are made 85 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,600 over an extended period of time. So I think really timely, you 86 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,200 know, because this is one of the reportedly one of the most 87 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,520 impactful things we can do in the classroom. 88 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,840 So, you know, as soon as I saw the title, I said, yes, I have 89 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:43,280 to to read this. What did they actually do? 90 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,720 What was the What was the paper structured? 91 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,320 Well, you know, as you see there, it's a meta analysis. 92 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,880 So we're, we're looking at existing studies and I think 93 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,640 there's 45 AM I right papers or studies that were looked at 94 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,800 really to try and gauge that the effectiveness of the of the 95 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,080 formative assessment technique that's been employed. 96 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,320 There was a range of techniques looked at, you know, including 97 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:19,160 sort of classroom based, paper based, digital based, and then 98 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,320 sort of a discussion and a decision around, you know, where 99 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,040 these techniques were actually having an impact on student 100 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,160 progress or student learning or attainment. 101 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:31,680 We started with what 550 ish papers and then as they as they 102 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,280 did their qualification process, they got down to to what almost 103 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,640 10% of the of the original thing. 104 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,360 But then I suppose that's what these really good method also 105 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,080 does, is it really clearly defines what it's what it's 106 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,280 studying and and so no surprises there, but it was the bulk of 107 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:48,200 what we're going to look at as well. 108 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:53,960 What does this then mean? So what were the key takeaways 109 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,520 that you find from this paper? Maybe if we take one take away 110 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,520 at a time. Yeah. 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,920 I think it's important that we have a sort of clear working 112 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,280 definition of formative assessment. 113 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:08,720 And that paper helped because I think that we need to know 114 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,800 formative assessment is more than just about checking what 115 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,920 they know. You know, it might well be that, 116 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,280 you know, that's a huge part of what we do in our, our work in 117 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:21,200 the classroom, trying to check whether they know what they 118 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,040 understand. But for any action like that to 119 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,360 be truly formative, it needs to help us plan our next step or 120 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,160 our next action. It needs to be about decision 121 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,520 making. And so that paper, one of the 122 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,000 big takeaways for me is really just to to keep that in mind 123 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,880 that whenever we're employing some sort of formative 124 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,120 assessment, you know, approach or strategy, it isn't really 125 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,480 complete until you've used the responses that you've gathered 126 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,320 to make a decision to plan your next step and to take that next 127 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,560 step. And actually it then, you know, 128 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,680 links to that idea of sort of planning, assessing, teaching 129 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,960 being a bit of a sort of cyclic thing. 130 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,280 And so, you know, you're always really planning, even in the act 131 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:05,920 of teaching, you should be sort of planning your next step. 132 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,560 And you're actually always really assessing as well because 133 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,520 every interaction you have with a a student or a group of 134 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,560 students should really be informing your next decision. 135 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,200 And so you've got this planning, teaching, assessing, wonderful 136 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,080 sort of, you know, 33 balls being juggled at the same time. 137 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,120 It's not just, you know, about giving an exit ticket or holding 138 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,440 up a mini whiteboard. It's about defining what we're 139 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,800 supposed to be learning. It's about thinking, you know, 140 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,920 so close as the student to being able to do this thing just now. 141 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,200 And then what will it take to get them to that point? 142 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,760 And you know, obviously we're not saying try harder or do more 143 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,280 examples. We need to be much more 144 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,740 specific. So I think that's the first take 145 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:50,960 away is just that kind of really sort of clear idea that 146 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,800 formative assessment is not just techniques, it's a decision 147 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,160 making process and it is only kind of complete when there's an 148 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,640 action that results. I mean, would that align with 149 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,960 with your thinking around formative assessment? 150 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,560 Yeah. 100% I mean, I think back then I interviewed Richard 151 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,560 Selfridge about the effective use of data because data is used 152 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,640 so poorly in education and particularly primary education 153 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,920 has all supposed to cross both all phases. 154 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,040 And he said, you know, it's, it's what you do with the data 155 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,080 that's important, you know, and that's so really all you should 156 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,440 be doing is collecting data that you could use. 157 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,480 So I'm 100% of all that definition. 158 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,440 But what I'm possibly struggling to understand, and this might be 159 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,600 bubble is whether or not there's actually a situation where 160 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,400 people don't use that information to act on. 161 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,520 Is it is it a case of are they conflating somewhat of 162 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,760 informative assessment? Are they just failing to act on 163 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,200 it? I mean, if you imagine your 164 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,679 colleagues complete high school, can you you think, is there 165 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,760 anyone who's actually going through their lessons without 166 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,880 being that responsive? Am I just being? 167 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,080 Am I blinded by the with the curse of knowledge or whatever? 168 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,920 If I look at all the schools and classrooms that I've been 169 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,720 fortunate enough to to visit, you know that it's a, it's a 170 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,720 scale, isn't it? It's a scale of formative 171 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,320 assessment techniques, whether that teacher has knowledge, has 172 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,360 a repertoire of techniques, and then are they using those 173 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,320 techniques. And then again, there's a scale 174 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,120 of how effectively are they then incorporating into their 175 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,520 decision making, as I said, what they're seeing in front of them. 176 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:23,520 And so, you know, I think the brutal answer is that there are 177 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,840 lots of wasted opportunities in classrooms all over the world, I 178 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,000 suppose, for teachers to get more knowledge in and to make 179 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,920 better decisions. You know, many whiteboards is, 180 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,120 you know, show me boards is such a classic example because 181 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,800 teachers now seem to know I should be using these things and 182 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,440 actually I'm maybe got a nice routine now to use them with the 183 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,640 class. But the biggest kind of 184 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:54,920 advantage of those is US absorbing what we see, 185 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,600 distilling down those results and making a decision. 186 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,160 It's the same with exit tickets. You know, I think that teachers 187 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,800 know these are a useful thing and they give them out, but if 188 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,360 they're not acted upon, then we're not getting the full kind 189 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,720 of impact. So it doesn't become formative. 190 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,600 So I think that there probably are lots of opportunities for 191 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,920 all of us, including myself to, you know, get a little bit more 192 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,560 out of these assessment opportunities. 193 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,040 When we do our PD, we normally start with some sort of 194 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,240 responsive teaching. You know, there's almost like 195 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,680 those routines for or checking for understanding and acting on 196 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,320 and stuff are the use of worked examples. 197 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Like I was doing that with Saint Peters. 198 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Virtually all those. Saint Peters is a school that 199 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,040 has been utilized tastes like a champion for a long time and so 200 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,560 don't necessarily need us in depth because, you know, those 201 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,040 systems are in place, right. So, yeah, so maybe maybe it's 202 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,880 because my recent work almost goes like we're maybe many years 203 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,840 down the line in terms of their journey and stuff. 204 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,120 And because yeah, because it's definitely a refinement and or 205 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,360 we can be we can be so much more efficient in our in our 206 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,000 assessment. But so maybe I've sort of not 207 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,320 been paying attention recently to, to the fact that that can 208 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,480 sometimes be absent or maybe there's less, it's less 209 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,480 efficient and and therefore, like you said, missed 210 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,600 opportunities. That makes a whole lot of sense. 211 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,840 I'm going to just add that the realities of the classroom are 212 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,360 such that, you know, teachers feel that there is some pressure 213 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,640 to to move on and to maintain a pace. 214 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,080 And so questioning, which is, you know, essentially the core 215 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,200 of all of our assessment is something that, you know, you 216 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,640 can you can end up spending a lot of time digging deeper into 217 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,520 an idea and really involving lots of students and having rich 218 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,040 discussion and, you know, really unearthing that concept. 219 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,040 And then it's the end of the lesson type of thing. 220 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,720 And, you know, you haven't actually completed that exercise 221 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,480 or whatever was was set. And so again, I do see this and 222 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,880 I think I'm also, I've certainly been guilty of it. 223 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,400 If somebody's got the right answer, I'll just take that 224 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,520 right answer and I'll just move on to the next thing. 225 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,800 And we've got to remember that it's not about sort of, are they 226 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,040 correct? It's about what are they 227 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,640 thinking underneath that? Whenever we look at the 228 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,680 classroom, what we want opportunity, we want all 229 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,280 children thinking all the time, don't we? 230 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,600 And then, you know, we want this definition, I think probably 231 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,200 makes sense, you know, before we transition. 232 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,200 Do do they give their definition or are we saying it's any active 233 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,120 assessment that is then acted upon and makes a change in the 234 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,280 in the learners? Is that are we putting, are we 235 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,640 putting this together based on the paper or do they articulate 236 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,440 in a certain way? I am probably packaging this up 237 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,440 into my own definition of formative assessment, but it 238 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:31,800 aligns with what's going on in the paper and it also aligns 239 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:37,040 with the more effective formative assessment because the 240 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,000 the paper goes on to talk about those actions. 241 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,760 So it's it's it's a process, not just a technique, something that 242 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,920 results in decision making. So I think that we are probably 243 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,960 creating our own kind of mutant version of the definition, but 244 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,320 that aligns with, you know, effective formative assessment 245 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,440 rather than just asking questions and getting answers 246 00:12:58,440 --> 00:12:59,960 and doing nothing. I think, yeah, because what 247 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:02,080 we're basically going to have is, is like five ways to get the 248 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,640 most informative assessment kind of thing as the as the 249 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,040 structure. And So what what's, what's the 250 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,120 second sort of take away that you've taken from this? 251 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,880 Yeah. And I kind of started to, to 252 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,200 touch on it there. It's not about asking more 253 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,480 questions really. It's it's also not about 254 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,600 gathering more data. You know, there's a lot of 255 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,040 information going around in schools already. 256 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,160 I don't think we need to gather more. 257 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,840 I think it's about making better use of it. 258 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,400 And really, when I talk about making better use of it, I'm 259 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,800 talking about improving our planning so that the largest 260 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,280 number of, of pupils can move forward. 261 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,320 You know, you mentioned there that we want to have all 262 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,600 people's thinking all the time. I would add that we want to have 263 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,240 all people's thinking hard all the time. 264 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,760 But even on top of that, I would like that teachers are better 265 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,880 aware of what those pupils are thinking. 266 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,800 And, and that is difficult when you've got a room of 30 and you 267 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,840 want to try and get a sense of what they're all thinking. 268 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,400 And that's why the questioning. This is the second take away 269 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,240 like the questioning whether it's a task or an activity or 270 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,280 whatever it is, we want to design these carefully so that 271 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,200 they illicit mathematical thought rather than just right 272 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,560 answers and wrong answers and pupils and and parents and 273 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,600 actually teachers, they like nothing more than a big page of 274 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,200 correct answers. Everything texts looking lovely 275 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,320 10 out of 10. But if we're not really, you 276 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,040 know, asking questions or digging below the surface to try 277 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,120 and associate elicit that sort of mathematical thinking, then 278 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,440 we're maybe not equipping ourselves with enough 279 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,400 information to make the right decisions about what comes next. 280 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,760 And, you know, there's a whole host of things that we could do 281 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,040 next depending on on what we're told and what those what those 282 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,320 students tell us. So yeah, we want all people's 283 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,400 thinking. We want them all thinking hard, 284 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,640 if possible, about something that they can actually achieve. 285 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,760 But also we want teachers to know that they're thinking, you 286 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,320 know, how do you know pupils are thinking and how do you know 287 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,080 what they're thinking? You know, that's where those 288 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,040 formative assessment techniques, like you mentioned teach like a 289 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,400 champion there. I've talked about showing me 290 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,240 boards already, Hinge questions, exit tickets, all of those 291 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,400 things. You know, if we are asking 292 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,200 questions and, and creating tasks that go below the surface 293 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,480 and, and get into the deeper thought, then we're getting much 294 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,120 richer information back. Hence, we will make better 295 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,800 decisions that push the learning forward. 296 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,040 I think, you know, I know some listeners will be just happy 297 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,920 that their their pupils aren't thinking about climbing the 298 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,160 fences. You know, so, and I totally get 299 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,600 what you mean. And, you know, but it's about us 300 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,960 directing people attention. Yeah. 301 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,920 Because, yeah, a lot of the conversation about questioning 302 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,760 can often introduce, like you say, it's not about more. 303 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,600 It's not about overcomplicating it. 304 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,560 But I think as leaders, it's about creating the space where 305 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,720 teachers can do that, that deep thinking themselves, and where 306 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,120 that space isn't available. You're then having to put your 307 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,520 faith in the resources you're utilizing and the thinking that 308 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,160 other people have done. You know, can the questions that 309 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,440 have been written elicit that kind of deep thought, that kind 310 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,280 of rich mathematical thinking? You know, because we know that 311 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,400 lots of people's only ever get a sterile and sort of sanitary 312 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,880 experience of mathematics. And that's because their 313 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,480 teachers probably haven't had the time to do all the wonderful 314 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,920 thinking that they want to do during their planning time. 315 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,920 So probably an appeal to leaders to really make school 316 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,280 improvement a subtractive process. 317 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,960 You know, there's so much bureaucracy we can cut. 318 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,680 But in the absence of that, as a teacher, you're probably 319 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,920 thinking, actually, you know, do I trust the resources? 320 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,440 Am I going for the highest quality sort of thought process 321 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,600 here? You know, people have maybe been 322 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,720 in the situation and and done that, that deep thinking for 323 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,520 you, you know. So yes, I'm totally with you, 324 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,080 you know, and I jest about the deep thing because we do want 325 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,440 all people's thinking as deeply and as as difficulty and I don't 326 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,920 know, hard as possible, but about the mathematics. 327 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,800 And yeah, I completely agree with that as well, because in 328 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,160 some cases you're just glad that the students in the room with 329 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,280 you and that they're engaging with what's going on. 330 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,760 And that's obviously not going to go away. 331 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,280 But while you were talking there, I was thinking that, you 332 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:13,839 know, some viewers and listeners might be thinking, well, OK, but 333 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,200 how do we, how do we kind of go beyond the surface there? 334 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,319 How do we go a little bit deeper? 335 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,520 It's much easier one to one with students when you're talking to 336 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,440 them, or maybe you're talking to a small group of students 337 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,960 because you can sort of have this much more focused and 338 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,320 controlled conversation. You can, can direct the 339 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,360 narrative and pull their thinking around and set them up 340 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,800 for the, for the big question or the deep question. 341 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:38,400 But when you've got a full group, then it becomes, you 342 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,480 know, a bit more challenging. So we need to, you know, think 343 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,680 really carefully. And just one, one little thing 344 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,520 that kind of comes to mind is, you know, when you are 345 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,400 introducing a new idea and you're starting to get students 346 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,200 maybe practicing A technique, doing some examples, what often 347 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,480 happens is that you find that you're examples kind of change 348 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,880 and modify and then there'll be one that's different to the 349 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,880 others. And so even just a little small 350 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,800 thing like having those two on the board and say, you know, 351 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,000 let's have a think about these two. 352 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,280 We've already done a lot of this. 353 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:07,960 Here's a new one. It's similar, but it's 354 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,200 different. What's different? 355 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,160 You know, what do you think's changed here and how is that 356 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,320 going to affect and just get everybody to think about that 357 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,840 for a moment, even if it's a sort of think per share or 358 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,480 however you choose to do it, just little things like that. 359 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,000 Can, you know, take the thinking from superficial to going a 360 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,920 little bit deeper. And the other one that often 361 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,960 works really well in the classroom is, you know, when 362 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,560 somebody gives you a correct answer is to then push it all 363 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,440 back to the room. You know, don't say it's right, 364 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,440 don't say it's wrong, just push it all back and say, well, who 365 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,280 agrees, who disagrees? And again, just takes the 366 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,640 thinking that a little bit deeper and obviously, you know, 367 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,760 uses a few more moments, but moments well spent. 368 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,640 I think just to go that little bit deeper and set that 369 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,320 expectation that you, you know, you're looking for everyone in 370 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,840 the room to think about these things. 371 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,840 Yeah, I actually did the I used dogs, you know, people, some 372 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,920 people use birds, some people use dogs to show like the 373 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,000 boundaries of an idea, the boundaries of the concept and 374 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,120 similar indifference in that stuck a poo wee Chihuahua up on 375 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,560 the board. And I said is this a dog? 376 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,200 And someone said no, it's a rat. So I'm sorry for him, but he had 377 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:08,680 small dogs and they were really angry. 378 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,920 So he did, you know. So we have the Irish wolfhound 379 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,840 and the Chihuahua and the least dog and the most dog. 380 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,120 But it probably is a rat before cat that it becomes, isn't it? 381 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,240 You know, I have, I have to be honest, I'm not a massive fan of 382 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,240 written feedback. I don't like spending hours with 383 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,120 a pile of jotters or notebooks in front of me, you know, 384 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,680 scribbling down three sort of sentences. 385 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,080 Because largely I know this is not going to get acted upon. 386 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,360 You know, I've looked into feedback before. 387 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,200 That way often students don't actually understand the language 388 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,240 that we're using. When we give feedback, we, we 389 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,480 can often give high level teacher levels or feedback to 390 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,080 students that couldn't answer the thing in the 1st place, it's 391 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,200 unlikely they're going to be able to understand the very 392 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,680 specific language that we're using. 393 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,560 Secondly, they might not actually know what to do anyway 394 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:02,000 to then try and fix it. So although you might say, you 395 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,440 know, you need to take more care of less that or whatever it is. 396 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,040 They won't know how to actually take that step. 397 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,320 And so, you know, feedback has a place, but I think it has a 398 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,120 whole load of different forms. And so when we're talking about 399 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,960 formative assessment, we're talking about using techniques 400 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,760 to get a sense in, in our heads of what students are thinking 401 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,000 and, and what they're understanding. 402 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,840 But then we do need to take that next step and, and have them, 403 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,920 you know, in fact, we want to try and improve their, their 404 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,840 understanding of their learning. And so, you know, for me, it's 405 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,840 not about more feedback, It's about thinking about different 406 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,360 types of feedback and how can we get the most value from the 407 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,160 feedback. And I think it's always got to 408 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,760 boil back down to the actual mathematical process that's 409 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,680 going on there. Feedback should never be about 410 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,240 the learner. You know, it's not a case of 411 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,840 saying or try harder or, you know, whatever, you're a star. 412 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,280 If you know, positive or negative stuff directed to the 413 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,800 learner is not helping. It needs to be about the maths 414 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,280 and so, you know, I think feedback can be really powerful, 415 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,480 but it should result in an action from this the pupil. 416 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,600 There should be something that they need to do as a as a result 417 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,240 assure somebody much more learner than I. 418 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,680 It sort of said it should result in more work for the recipient 419 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,360 than the giver. And I, I like that. 420 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,560 And you know, I've challenged any listeners or viewers to 421 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,400 think how often has the feedback that you've written into 30 422 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,200 notebooks, you know, taken longer than, you know, the 423 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,640 students have then spent acting upon it. 424 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,080 So it should always be more work for the recipient. 425 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,800 I think that's why I don't do a lot of written feedback. 426 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,280 I would tend to do all class verbal, small group, but 427 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,720 feedback can also be just more examples. 428 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,200 So if you are doing a whole class response using show me 429 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,920 boards or whatever it is and you see that 50% of the room have 430 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,680 not got this, then the feedback is that you then do some more 431 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,080 examples. Maybe simplify it, maybe go for 432 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,960 a different representation, or maybe you get the pupils to work 433 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,320 together and you go around the room and you just listen to what 434 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,680 they're saying. All of those things are kind of 435 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,920 forms of feedback because you're you're giving them another 436 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,200 chance to think about that idea, but you're putting a bit of 437 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,160 structure and control around that so that they are now 438 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,920 focusing more on the specifics. And I think it all ties back to 439 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,880 those kind of clear idea of what it is we're expecting them to 440 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,720 learn in the first instance, the learning intentions, the success 441 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,040 criteria. I'm not a big fan of writing 442 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,760 them on the board, but I think that students need to know what 443 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,000 what a good one looks like and what they're aiming for so that 444 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,380 they've got that kind of target. So I think that's another take 445 00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:45,000 away for me is that it's not a bit more feedback, it's about 446 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,440 thinking about the different ways we can provide feedback. 447 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,160 We can provide, you know, guidance and structure around 448 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,560 next steps, actions, actions that are specifically tied to 449 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,400 that bit of maths that we were learning so that those students 450 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,920 actually improve. That's kind of causing the loop, 451 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,840 isn't it? Or keeping that loop sort of 452 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,480 circulating. How does that sit with you? 453 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,560 What do you think about that? Do you like marking? 454 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,600 Yeah, I love marking. Spent so many weekends missing 455 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,120 on missing events because of it. So when sort of the, the 456 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,720 narrative changed, we almost pulled the knowledge lever. 457 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,080 And so we knew that actually written feedback was not 458 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,440 comparable to feedback and, and those effect sizes, you know, 459 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,840 triple marking wasn't necessarily as effect impactful 460 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,440 as, as we might have thought. And so, but as almost a bit 461 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,600 disappointed that the the Ofsted lever wasn't pulled or certainly 462 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,600 didn't seem like reports were acknowledging that this kind of 463 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,880 marking shouldn't still be happening. 464 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,400 You know, obviously there was the myth busting documents, but 465 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,760 nothing really changed. There were schools when I knew 466 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,760 when people were spending countless hours marking. 467 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,680 We're getting good and above inspection ratings, even though, 468 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,200 you know, I think they should have held leaders accountable 469 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,360 because it was too easy. And it's just gotten worse 470 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:06,080 because of the regime change. And it's got, you know, it's so 471 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,240 easy just to stick your head in the sand and just say, well, 472 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,760 we've always done this way. So we're not going to, I'm not 473 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,040 going to change this. You know, so I am, I'm 474 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,840 disappointed that really over the last 15-16 years, fewer 475 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,320 schools aren't and aren't it's asking their teachers to do 476 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,000 written feedback as part of some sort of policy. 477 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,400 But I do think of the positives back then, I think it was Dylan 478 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,440 William and I think it was in. But what does this look like in 479 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,960 the classroom? You know, the Carl Hendrick and 480 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,200 Rob McPherson book and I think he had like almost like a circle 481 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,640 and he said like dedicate 25% of your feedback to this, 25% of 482 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,600 your feedback to that. Off top of my head, can't 483 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,600 remember exactly what it was, but I will make sure it's 484 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,600 included in the newsletter that goes out with this episode and 485 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,320 thinking deeply that info on Monday morning because it's 486 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,160 really illustrative. I mean, I think even though say 487 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,680 that some feedback should be written, it's probably the 488 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,240 ticking that you, I know you spent hours even still doing, 489 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,800 even though you don't do written notes to your students, you 490 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,080 still spend a lot of time actually physically marking. 491 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,240 So do you know what to do? So you know, no one's saying you 492 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,320 stop looking at work, but there are more efficient ways and more 493 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,600 impactful ways to do that. I mean, I think off the top 494 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,800 ahead Andrew personal to Stanley Rd. 495 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,040 So I was written some stuff in the past, some really good stuff 496 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,760 about his use of them, almost like live feedback or whole 497 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,120 class feedback and the structures that are in place. 498 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,560 You know, just to say that, yeah, this is something I 499 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,160 thought we would have pulled the lever on completely over the 500 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,240 last 20 years, but we just doesn't seem to go over the 501 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,480 line. I think that might be because 502 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,760 many more schools that we'd like to think are our silos rather 503 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,280 than this hive mind that is evidence informed and research 504 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,320 based. And all of it it does. 505 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,400 The sad sort of reality is that I think that written feedback 506 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,840 into notebooks is something that's obviously very visible, 507 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,000 that's kind of measurable from a sort of school administrative or 508 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,880 school leadership point of view. And so, you know, feedback's 509 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,720 good and useful. We want to make sure every 510 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,280 teacher's doing it. So let's just tell them that 511 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,720 they must put it into the notebooks. 512 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,200 And then every two weeks we'll look at the notebooks and check 513 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,320 that they've written it all in there. 514 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,000 And it just sadly, you know, defeats the whole purpose of a 515 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,760 lot of the things we've already spoken about here, being a 516 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,120 little bit more responsive to the, to the class, giving them 517 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,320 additional examples, all that in the moment stuff that you can do 518 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,800 in the classroom. Thankfully, you know, schools 519 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,400 have moved on from that, you know, and are acknowledging that 520 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,000 variable feedback, you know, is, is, is, is powerful and is 521 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,080 useful. You know, I'm not, I'm 522 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,240 necessarily a massive fan of the variable feedback stamp in the 523 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,840 jotters or the notebooks, but again, you know that, you know, 524 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,960 the reason behind that. I think what's most important is 525 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,160 if, if teachers understand that giving high quality feedback as 526 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,200 a result of the information they've gathered through their 527 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840 formative assessment, if teachers understand that giving 528 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,320 high quality feedback in whatever form it is will 529 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,200 actually make their lives easier, students will, you know, 530 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,080 make more progress and learning will become smoother, then 531 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,960 teachers will be doing it. It's just a case of, you know, 532 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,440 sharing those techniques, giving teachers support and advice so 533 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,600 that they don't have more work. They just make better use of 534 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,880 the, you know, the time and the opportunities that they have. 535 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,600 Yeah. So it's the tools that they have 536 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,200 making sort of the collation and the the decision making easier 537 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:23,840 rather than more difficult I think. 538 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,960 So I think the last one for me, which is interesting because we 539 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:34,400 talked before about kind of digital interventions in another 540 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,400 episode. You know, this, this paper does 541 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,400 spend a little bit of time looking at sort of online and 542 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:47,040 and digital computer based kind of inventions and interventions. 543 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,640 And it comes back saying that, yeah, the computer based can 544 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,640 actually work pretty well with this off. 545 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,920 You know, the proviso that there is some sort of feedback. 546 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,800 Now feedback can just be right or wrong. 547 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,560 I mean, just telling people if they've got it right or wrong 548 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,640 is, is feedback giving them the correct answer. 549 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:11,360 Again, more than that. So these computer based sort of 550 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,720 approaches can work well, you know, it's not just because it's 551 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,200 being done online. Give them devices, plug them 552 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,840 into something, get them doing practice. 553 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,160 You know, it's important that we kind of try and get the most out 554 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,840 of that. And so that was a bit of a take 555 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,160 away for me is we're increasingly, you know, getting 556 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,920 access in schools to devices and sort of whole school Wi-Fi 557 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,400 solutions. And there's there's plenty of 558 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,760 sort of platforms that provide practice and things like that. 559 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,000 But what we're hoping here is that it's not just practice for 560 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,560 the sake of practice that there is, you know, this this 561 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,440 opportunity for the students to get a feedback. 562 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,640 And then ideally, you know, there's an opportunity for the 563 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,200 teachers to make even better use of that kind of information that 564 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,880 I was just thinking the other day, you know, imagine if your 565 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,520 class of therapy are are all writing away in their notebooks 566 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,040 and they're answering all these questions. 567 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,120 And, you know, imagine if you had sight of every single answer 568 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,960 that every single student had put in that lesson. 569 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,360 And imagine you were able to remember all that and yesterdays 570 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,600 and the day before. And imagine you were able to 571 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,800 then order that and, and decide where the weaknesses are, where 572 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,000 the strengths are, who needs extended to needs more. 573 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,160 You know, that is that is really powerful. 574 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,400 I think that's where the, you know, the digital stuff can can 575 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240 be really helpful in this, you know, within this formative 576 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,160 assessment conversation that we're having. 577 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,040 Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, because. 578 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,600 Yeah, because that was definitely something I was going 579 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,840 to ask because it's a thread between last time. 580 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,080 So obviously they were saying things like tablet based 581 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,080 intervention seem to be more impactful. 582 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,320 And you know, I'm almost like a products back on the on the spot 583 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,560 here. We're thinking like if it says 584 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,400 right of your five questions, three of these were wrong, find 585 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,080 them and correct them. You know, that's that's that's 586 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,080 closing that deep thinking like as well, isn't it? 587 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,960 You know, I'm not sure anything actually does that. 588 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,240 But there will be the kind of thing that, you know, supporting 589 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,120 effective teachers because I don't think we're not talking 590 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,120 about it. We're not talking about 591 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,480 artificial intelligence or large language models or anything. 592 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,960 And that, you know, it's basically, you know, expertise 593 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,320 coding technology to do, like you said, the heavy lifting 594 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,960 there, you know, that that's that data analysis that's too 595 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,760 much for the human brain. And but it's not some sort of 596 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,520 random, you know, I'm not sure how to describe them. 597 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,000 But these, these the claims that are being made about the power 598 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,440 of them. Arvis does is, you know, like 599 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,640 it's only been used to people like Dominic talking about how 600 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,240 you actually, let's be a bit restrained in our thinking that 601 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,240 actually you get the, the sensible element of them of that 602 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,200 word. So that's, that's not what we're 603 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,960 talking about. But, you know, technological 604 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:46,280 effects do appear. Probably most importantly, how 605 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,400 does all of this translate into the classroom? 606 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,360 Are there any things we can do on the ground, you know, to make 607 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,440 sure that we're utilizing formative assessment in the most 608 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,400 effective way possible? Yeah. 609 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,200 I mean, I think that all teachers will be using 610 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,000 assessment techniques in a formative way to some extent. 611 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,400 They may have a a vast range of techniques. 612 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,880 They may have a few kind of go to techniques. 613 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,080 And I think it's, it's not about necessarily being able to, to, 614 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,480 to use every technique. You know, you don't have to have 615 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,920 like a hinge question, ABCD coloured cards for multiple 616 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,800 choice exit tickets, show me boards. 617 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,520 You don't have to have all of that going every lesson that 618 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,800 that's that's really important. It's not about doing sort of 619 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,200 more. I think it's about, you know, 620 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:47,240 being consistent and using a technique that you know, works 621 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,280 to give you the sort of information you need back. 622 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,200 And so, you know, for teachers in the classroom, I would be 623 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,400 saying that, you know, try and have every lesson 1 purposefully 624 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,440 designed formative assessment activity that's designed such 625 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,080 that it's tied to the mathematical intent of the 626 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,720 lesson that it's going to give you something useful. 627 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,720 So, you know, if it's about adding fractions, for example, 628 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,200 and I think I always default to fractions here, but it's a right 629 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,880 field for errors, you know, because there's concepts in 630 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,960 there, you know, not not just can they add to proper 631 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,640 fractions, but you know, let's let's really dig into the 632 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,320 thinking around the common denominators. 633 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,360 And you know, why have you chosen this common denominator? 634 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,520 Could another common denominator have also worked? 635 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,760 Why would you not choose this one in this case? 636 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,120 What does it mean if you end up using a larger common 637 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,160 denominator in terms of do you have to simplify it and all of 638 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,080 those sort of things? You know, those are the kind of 639 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,840 mathematical thinking and the strategy rather than just can 640 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,400 you do this question? You can't get it right. 641 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:53,880 So I think takeaways for teachers is try and ensure that 642 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,920 whatever formative assessment technique you're applying, it's 643 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,720 helping you make a decision about your teaching, that you're 644 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,680 just you're teaching then is adapted in some way, whether it 645 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,200 is a different representation, more examples, an easier 646 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,080 example. You split the group, somebody 647 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,520 gets enrichment, you work with a few. 648 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,800 You know, it's not just about doing the technique, which I 649 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,920 think you know, a lot of time for observed lessons and things 650 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,400 like that, people will have all sorts of bells and whistles 651 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,440 going. But really what we're looking 652 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,640 for is, well, what did that tell you and what did you do with 653 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,480 that information? So my big kind of take away and, 654 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,920 and, and thoughts for the classroom is that, you know, 655 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,080 formative assessment, not a technique, but a decision making 656 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,120 process. You know, I would probably add 657 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,280 something else on here because going back and forth with pupils 658 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,160 working together in the classroom, you know, I think 659 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,720 that the teacher is largely the one that's best placed to 660 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,160 provide descriptions, to provide instruction, to provide 661 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,520 explanations, because I've seen students just tell each other 662 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,800 what to do. You know, it's it's rare that 663 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,440 the conversation is restrained and controlled and one is sort 664 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,600 of actively teasing out thought from the other. 665 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,520 Fairly rare. It's usually just a case of, 666 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,800 yeah, you do that number, that number, and then it's it's kind 667 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,080 of done. So I've gone back and forth with 668 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,920 this. But I do think that there there 669 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,960 still is value in having them, you know, work together. 670 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,080 But I think what's important here for again, for teachers is 671 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,639 not to say, OK, class, you've all done, you know, an end of 672 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,679 topic test And, and I'm going to sort of give it back here. 673 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,679 And here's here's the answers on the screen, sort of mark each 674 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:36,320 other's and then have a chat about it. 675 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,719 You know, I think that's just too vague and too open-ended. 676 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,280 And So what, what I think I'd rather is that you have a very 677 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,719 focused question or prompt maybe on the on the board or on sort 678 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,280 of papers and you know, the students are given some clear 679 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,520 framework around. I want you to discuss this. 680 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,159 This is maybe it's a model answer. 681 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,080 We need to compare it to what a good one looks like. 682 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,640 I want you to both kind of come up with how you would improve 683 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,760 it. Something that you know, really 684 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,720 puts constraints around our conversation, focuses their 685 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:08,080 conversation because they are, they are useful little tools to 686 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,080 kind of learn from each other, especially if you want to take 687 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,400 half a dozen and have a more focused chat with them while the 688 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,200 rest are having that conversation. 689 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,600 So I think those are two big things there. 690 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,480 Whatever technique you're using, make sure it gives you some info 691 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,560 and act on that info. Doesn't need to be loads of 692 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,200 different techniques. And if you do choose to use kind 693 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,240 of paired work or peer work, then keep it super focused, tie 694 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:32,040 it to the learning intention, success criteria and make it 695 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,200 about the maths. Yeah, absolutely. 696 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,120 I mean, the only carried out at AD for pupils is almost having a 697 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,000 really tight routine that they know how to stick to that you 698 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,800 can practice and rehearse if they slip out of it because 699 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,560 obviously you know that that kind of collaborative work can 700 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,440 often go awry. And but you know, there's no 701 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,280 reason why I can't work with proper thought. 702 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,320 I think they're, you know, the first suggestion is really 703 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,080 powerful and, you know, because even this week I was working 704 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,120 with a teacher and they were disappointed in the lesson that 705 00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:58,080 they hadn't looked through the plan. 706 00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,280 And we've all been there. We've written these really 707 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,240 detailed plans and we thought, oh, this is where we want to get 708 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:02,200 to. But actually they've been really 709 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,440 responsive and they've decided to adapt their instruction based 710 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,840 on that and say, we're, oh, we're not going to go any 711 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,000 further. We're going to stick with this. 712 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,320 And I was like, that's brilliant. 713 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,440 You know, the I had to reassure them actually, that's the that's 714 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,400 the right thing to do because it doesn't matter what's on your on 715 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,360 your paper, you know, on paper, partial as your man versus 716 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,080 Bayern Munich wasn't going to be a one nil snooze fest, you know, 717 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,720 but it but it was, you know, because you know, you don't 718 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,200 survive first contact with the enemy, do you? 719 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,560 No. I completely agree that that 720 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,200 that is what that's the essence of good teaching is being able 721 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,520 to respond to to read to to digest what you're seeing and 722 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,000 then to respond. And if it means that you don't 723 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,320 get to the end of the page that you hoped you would get to that 724 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,080 day, then there's always next lesson pick up from there. 725 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,480 It's better to to inhaler your instruction to the needs of the 726 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,040 group rather than, you know, drag them kicking and screaming 727 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,760 because of the needs of some arbitrary timeline you know, on 728 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,480 your scheme of work. So I think that almost like the 729 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,960 key thing is like this is not new information. 730 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,280 This is almost like a refinement of what we know about effective 731 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,520 formative assessment. It's almost like a tempering of 732 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,960 expectations and A and a focus of, of attention. 733 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,280 So I think that's really, really useful on on somebody that was 734 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,160 like, you've actually been doing a lot of thinking about this 735 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,000 kind of stuff recently on on like a massive scale. 736 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,800 What have you been working on? I'm, I, I teach in a school, I 737 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,000 work in a classroom. I'm up there and, you know, I 738 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,480 know the challenges and I've often thought, you know, about 739 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,520 digital tools and how they can help us and how they can support 740 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,800 us. And, you know, over the years 741 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,160 and the time I've spent working with teachers all over the world 742 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,120 now I'm trying to think how can we really help them? 743 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,040 How can we make the most of the, of the practice that students 744 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,160 are doing? And, and, and that data that is 745 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,920 gathered, that information and how can we use that to help us 746 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,120 inform so many things, not just our own next steps, but to build 747 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,760 a picture of how you know, well, those students are, are doing 748 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,600 with particular bits of maths and are there groups of students 749 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:02,880 that needed more support, etcetera. 750 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,840 So I've been, I've been working on a on a tool where if people's 751 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,600 basically complete math questions, they can do it 752 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,160 digitally, they can do it on paper. 753 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,320 If they do it digitally, then that's great because it's 754 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,000 already in the system. If they do it on paper, there's 755 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,080 a very sort of simple way for teachers to just upload those 756 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,520 those answers. And what we're doing there is 757 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,560 we're creating a situation where every question that student 758 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,320 answers forms a tiny little granule in a much, much bigger 759 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,040 picture in terms of their achievement. 760 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,880 So I've, I've built something, it's practice is curriculum 761 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,000 aligned. So although it was originally 762 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,440 kind of aligned for Scottish Curriculum for Excellence, it's 763 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,560 actually now lined up with curriculum for Wales. 764 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,680 And also, of course, you know, our own story of maths 765 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,640 curriculum. So it doesn't really matter 766 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,880 massively what curriculum or scheme you're following. 767 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,280 The practice is going to be aligned to that. 768 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,600 You can do it in any order you want, but it's starting to build 769 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:01,920 that picture and gather that information. 770 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,680 And I think importantly here, it's not it's not trying to 771 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,680 replace teacher judgement, but what it will do is say, well, 772 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,640 actually, you know, this group of students have had three goals 773 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,720 at this type of question and they've they've struggled with 774 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,520 all of them. So here's half a dozen that you 775 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,760 should maybe spend a bit of time with or it's going to say this 776 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,200 group of students, they've aced these every time. 777 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:21,680 They've taken no time. They've answered them. 778 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,160 All right. They're looking to maybe be, you 779 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:30,280 know, achieve a level or, or pushed on to something, you 780 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,520 know, more challenging. But I think what's nice about 781 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,240 this is that it helps the teacher. 782 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480 It's like a teaching assistant, I suppose, in a sense, just 783 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,640 giving you that info about, you know, where the strengths and 784 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:41,960 weaknesses are, where you should focus your. 785 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,920 But it also helps the school because all of that stuff can 786 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,760 just be aggregated up to sort of school level. 787 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,880 And as a school, you can say, well, look at that across the 788 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,840 board. We're weak at fractions or, you 789 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,360 know, our, our equations, our expressions and equations are, 790 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,800 are, are not strong in five out of the six classes. 791 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,360 Well, hang on, what's going on in that 6th class? 792 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,240 How come they're getting it right? 793 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,120 Maybe we can, you know, give us a chance for school leaders. 794 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,320 And as you go further up, trust our local authority leaders who 795 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,040 will also see that aggregated up across the whole trust to say, 796 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,040 you know, who can we learn from? You know, not just where are our 797 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,400 weaker areas, but where are our strengths? 798 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,280 And in that way, what we're moving away from is high stakes. 799 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,320 End of topic, end of unit, end of term, end of year tests, 800 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,560 which, you know, they're only snapshots and a lot of those are 801 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,120 performative. It's just performance there. 802 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,920 It's not really learning. But so often we use those as our 803 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,680 kind of, you know, Holy Grail when we make a decision about 804 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,520 how well a student's done. And I think if we're honest with 805 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640 ourselves, sort of end of topic into term tests, a lot of that 806 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,200 content is forgotten very, very quickly afterwards. 807 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,960 Whereas ASO Pro, which is what I've been working on, it's just 808 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,960 constantly aggregating data together. 809 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,360 It's just building that wonderful big true picture and 810 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,200 then saying to the teacher, these are the things you want to 811 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,920 look at, These are the things you want to go, you know, and 812 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,120 maybe explore next. So I think something really 813 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,480 useful for schools, teachers and, you know, and school 814 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,720 groups. Yeah, it's a trust level and 815 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,080 local authority level stuff that that excites me because you can 816 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,720 see like, you know, how are we doing across the board? 817 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,600 And you know, because like, we started the episode by talking 818 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,120 about my travels this week, but everywhere I go, people have the 819 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,320 same issue. They do these tests 3 * a year. 820 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,600 They haven't either, haven't covered half the material. 821 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,360 The peoples are struggling because it's pitched at a level 822 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,440 that's not relevant to their actual curriculum sequence. 823 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,200 And so there must be a better way. 824 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,440 And I think like everything we do, which is based around how 825 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,000 can teachers become the most effective versions of 826 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,040 themselves, you know, So like, I mean, you said, you know, we've 827 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,560 got something right now. We've got the PD in class, you 828 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,080 know, developmental, not accountable and sort of be 829 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,200 focused coaching and math specific rather than the generic 830 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,120 pedagogy. We've got the story of maths and 831 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,040 the tools to help teachers actually be that really 832 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,480 effective person. And now ESL Pro almost like the 833 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,560 assessment, but assessment on really, really, really well, you 834 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,040 know, I think yeah. And do do you want to have the 835 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,760 point of direction? So it's ASL dot pro. 836 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,240 I'm going to use the phonetic alpha. 837 00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:23,320 So it's ACEL dot POR Nope PRO. That's it, that's it. 838 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,800 ASL dot pro and there are three tours on the site that you can 839 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,120 just click through and get a look at it. 840 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,440 So if you're a teacher, if you're a school leader, if 841 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,760 you're a local authority or trust leader, you can see the 842 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,000 different dashboards, but it's all about it's all about sort of 843 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,840 evidence and action. So this is what the data, you 844 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,440 know, this is the data we've gathered. 845 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,240 Can we trust it first of all, because if it's, if it's thin, 846 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,720 then ASO pro will say, well, don't, don't make big decisions 847 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:48,200 based on this. The kids haven't done enough 848 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,680 practice. But once the data is, you know, 849 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,240 reliable and we can trust it, then it'll always say, this is 850 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:55,680 what we think you should look at next. 851 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,400 And you know, for me that that sounds like our formative 852 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,000 assessment conversation. It sounds about it's not about 853 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,400 the techniques, it's not about doing the questions, it's about 854 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,600 a decision making process. I mean, the, the amount that 855 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,320 your coding has developed over the last couple of years is 856 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,960 amazing because like we've always said, like people have 857 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,200 said, oh, well, the story mass can pupils do it? 858 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,080 Can can we have something people facing? 859 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:17,560 Can the pupils log in? Can we get this data? 860 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,640 And we said no, we weren't going to do it until we knew that we 861 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,120 had a robust. But essentially you built like 862 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,320 this. I'm imagine this like Fort Knox, 863 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,960 but it's like Fort Knox, The Avengers have built where like 864 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,040 no one is penetrating the, the security of this, of this 865 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,600 infrastructure. And you know, we're actually 866 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,440 guarantee this because earlier was talking to us about how 867 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,440 essentially guarantee was a it was a Nazi megastructure and how 868 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,600 they'd poured most of their concrete into the channel 869 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,440 aisles. And this is what I imagine 870 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,000 whenever I imagine ASL Pro, but with none of the negative 871 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,080 competitions of Nazism in the war in World War 2. 872 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,160 Thankfully, yeah, absolutely. It's super secure. 873 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,040 I mean that that is a key thing when you're looking at sort of 874 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:58,200 data etcetera. So ASL Pro is lean on what it 875 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,880 stores, but it's really, really rich in terms of what it gives 876 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,960 you back. Yeah, yeah, we we could have 877 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,320 taken people data years ago, but actually just we said schools, 878 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,760 No, we can't. And because, you know, it's one 879 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,080 thing to have an adult data, because most of us are adults. 880 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,840 Our data is in the wild and we can deal with that in different 881 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,760 ways. But people data is not fair on 882 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,160 them because in some instance it will be the first time that 883 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,240 their data and their personal data has been somewhere. 884 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,480 So I think really useful episode. 885 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,640 Really looking forward to sharing it with people. 886 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:32,360 Like I say, I will be, I'll be probably crying in a dark corner 887 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,640 of a room because it's a, it's a sleepover birthday party. 888 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,760 So not only would it last most of the day, but it also last the 889 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,600 whole night, too. And my son says the last time he 890 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,560 went to a sleepover, it was 1:00 AM. 891 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:44,680 They were still watching the movie. 892 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,760 So pray, really do prayer for me. 893 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,920 Also to say thank you very much for joining me, Stuart. 894 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,280 You're very welcome, Kieran, it's always a pleasure. 895 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,080 And everyone at home, until next time, thanks for listening.