1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 I think really helping them, yeah, new teachers pinpoint 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,880 where misconceptions are in a really granular way to help 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,200 build their pedagogy, but obviously to also help the 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,200 students are in front of them at that time, physically having a 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,480 device, having the space and the time to actually be able to 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,920 complete work in a quiet space. It's not a luxury that every 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,960 student has. Would have had the time to 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,600 tailor all these different groups. 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,440 If I wasn't using an online platform like Doctor Frost 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,280 Maths, I don't know, I don't think I would have. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,840 So I think I was able to then do this approach because I had the 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,320 because the platform gave me the like I had the functionality to 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:42,880 do it. It just gave teachers, like 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,720 teachers weren't then thinking of their own homework and then 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,680 printing it and then giving it out and then marking it. 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,760 It just gives then teachers more time to actually think about, 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,040 right? Well, what am I doing? 18 00:01:12,910 --> 00:01:15,470 Welcome to Thinking a Bit about Primary Education, the podcast 19 00:01:15,470 --> 00:01:17,710 that makes time and space think about pedagogy, teaching and 20 00:01:17,710 --> 00:01:19,110 learning, professional development. 21 00:01:19,470 --> 00:01:22,110 Anything of interest to time per but enthusiasm rich primary 22 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:24,840 teachers. This week I'm joined by Hannah 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,960 Hogg to explore Doctor Frost learning and the role of online 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,600 platforms in mathematics education in particular. 25 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,560 But before we do that, there's a few things I'd like to 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,360 highlight. Obviously in the link in the 27 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:44,400 description, we have the access to the the thinky DB Primary 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,160 Education conference online and on demand. 29 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,320 Now tickets are on sale. They're going to be on sale for 30 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,120 the best part of six months. I think we're probably a month 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,360 into that now. You know, we've got lots of 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,880 great speakers, like you say, you can watch them at your 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,960 leisure wherever you are in the world. 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,160 And all the funds go to the Linder Cancer Center. 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,160 So if you haven't already got your ticket for that, you know, 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,800 then I'd highly recommend doing so. 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,919 If you want to add your session to it, then please do reach out 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,600 and because, and we're we're accepting videos and we're 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,840 updating all the time. And if you're thinking about 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,440 sessions, we're going to be announcing the speaker proposals 41 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,520 for a few conferences in the autumn term. 42 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,960 So now, especially if you're a teacher, is the time to be 43 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,760 thinking about, well, what do I want to speak about? 44 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,160 No topic to Niche, no teacher to inexperienced. 45 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,960 We want to hear from practicing teachers, people in the 46 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,200 classroom, but their experiences, but their deep 47 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,800 thinking. Now today's episode is all about 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,840 the use of online platforms. And I suppose on some level it 49 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,720 might be bit strange that obviously Alta are operating in 50 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,120 this zone. They're in the same sort of area 51 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,560 as Doctor Frost. But I think there are are two 52 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:58,000 things to to really be sort of mindful of AI think both the 53 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,720 both the, the sort of the the offering from Alta and the 54 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,320 offering from Doctor Froster, I think sufficiently different 55 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,400 that they give teachers choice. And secondly, that that choice 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,760 is the most important thing. You know, I really don't mind 57 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,200 and really don't want people using our resources just because 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,280 I've said so, you know, the, the thinking, the thought goes back 59 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,360 goes into curricular decision making is the most important 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,240 element. And I think that's why having 61 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,200 these conversations, looking at the research, like I did with 62 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,400 Stewart a couple of weeks ago on the use of digital interventions 63 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,440 with people who have special educational needs and 64 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,080 disabilities and looking at that, you know, the research and 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,320 the foreign assessment, it's all tied together because it's all 66 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,400 part of our thought process, because how maths is enacted in 67 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,520 our classrooms will be related to the decision making we make 68 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,480 when it comes to the the tools that we give our teachers. 69 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,120 And so if you're using our resources, you know, you're 70 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,520 adopting a very specific pedagogic model in most 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,640 instances, whereas other times, you know, it might be a 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,960 different model or perhaps model agnostic, you know, so I think 73 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,440 the thinking that we do, and this time of year, it's really 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,720 important. We're, we're almost now 75 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,560 thinking, we're not going to make any change now, but we're 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,480 thinking about what's September going to look like lots of our 77 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,240 schools are being on board at now. 78 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,880 And so I think if we, you know, I'm the, the aim is a, you know, 79 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,960 we've got this, this charter organization doing really great 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,920 work in mathematics education, spread the word, but also to 81 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 encourage deep thought about our curricular decision making, 82 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,400 because that's the most important thing is that we're 83 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,280 thinking deeply about the decisions we make across the 84 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:38,200 school. You know, so Hannah is a 85 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,640 fantastic guest. You're really going to enjoy 86 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,840 this episode. So without further ado, let's 87 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,960 spend some time thinking deeply about primary education. 88 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,120 So Hannah, it's lovely to see you. 89 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,520 How are you? I'm good. 90 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,280 How are you? Yeah, not too bad. 91 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:53,640 Can't complain. I mean, we're getting to that 92 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,480 time of the the school year where things are perpetually 93 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,000 busy, aren't we? Very busy. 94 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Very busy, yeah. We're going to explore your work 95 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:06,480 with and for Doctor Frost Learning, but I thought we'd 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,680 begin with a little bit about who you are and how you got here 97 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,280 today. Yeah, that, that'll be great. 98 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,800 So yes, my name's Hannah and I probably took quite a 99 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,600 traditional route in to teaching. 100 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,360 I am a trained maths teacher. I did my A levels and maths and 101 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,960 further maths and then went and done a maths degree at my local 102 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,080 university, which was Newcastle and it was a in my second year. 103 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,280 I had a presentation off Teach First that really hit home that 104 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,960 the the school I went to was in. Well, where I live is in a quite 105 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,320 a bit disadvantaged area. And I just think like most 106 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,120 teachers can think back to that one or two teachers that had a 107 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,920 real impact. And when I seen the presentation 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,320 of teachers, that's that really hit home with me and wanted to 109 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,120 get into teaching from that like, like so many other 110 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,880 teachers as well. I was placed in a school which 111 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,520 is where Teach 1st works that about 15 minutes away from where 112 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,320 I lived. And I was there for 9 years as a 113 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,520 secondary maths teacher for so teaching on years 11, sorry, 114 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,880 teaching ages 11 to 18. While I was there, I became a 115 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:20,880 professional tutor working with ECT's and yeah, a real for I 116 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,520 think it was during that time a real focus on really wanted to 117 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,600 support teachers with workload. It was still a time where 118 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,000 depending on where teachers were training, they were either 119 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,080 encouraged to still plan everything from scratch. 120 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,040 Well, that is just not how teachers work in the real like 121 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,760 day-to-day. You can't plan everything from 122 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,000 scratch. And yeah, really started to get 123 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,560 a passion about we need to be doing something to support these 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,000 teachers no matter which role they come in from. 125 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,000 And it's a similar sort of time, just a colleague of mine 126 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,560 actually did our masters in looking at fractions and the 127 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:01,360 knowledge of fractions and how even year, year 11 students 128 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,000 can't like are getting very similar questions and correct to 129 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,200 year six students. And just really hit home that 130 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,280 what, what are we doing for these students in the five years 131 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,560 that the with us? It was, yeah, she did it across 132 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,760 lots of different schools. So it wasn't, you know, it 133 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,160 wasn't a school thing. It's just what are what are 134 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,360 students sitting through that they're not making the progress 135 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,120 in these topics. Really interested in like the 136 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,520 year seven slump where they go from primary school to a certain 137 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,000 level and then drop down. So an opportunity came up to be 138 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,320 head of maths in the middle school, which was a little bit 139 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,160 further from where I live. But yeah, I took that. 140 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,960 I was like successful in that application and yeah, LED maths 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,800 at the middle school, which is the a 567 and eight while I was 142 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,520 in both schools or while I was in my first school. 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,640 I'd started using the doctor frost maths platform mostly 144 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,000 during COVID, like I'd use the resources for years, but through 145 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,760 COVID it sort of came in. It was own supporting students 146 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,720 and teachers like with online. It sounds, it sounds like a 147 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,200 million miles like years ago now, I think, doesn't it? 148 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,320 But support and teachers and students with that remote 149 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,040 learning and then continue to use it from there. 150 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,120 The platform really, so much of it was done independently by 151 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,760 Jamie Frost, but the team has grown now and has been grown for 152 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,400 a few years and it's now a charity and our aim is to 153 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,400 support every teacher to enjoy maths and every child to have 154 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,320 access to a great maths education. 155 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,480 I'm also leading on a number of partnerships to try and give 156 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,320 extra support to schools serve in high areas of disadvantage, 157 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,560 which is something I feel really passionate about as so many 158 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,680 other people do as well. So yeah, that's just a bit of an 159 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,960 overview of the trajectory that sort of got us here. 160 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,400 And like I said, even even though secondary maths, I think 161 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,960 it's still really pertinent to the to that day listener because 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,600 I think the, you know, the distinction is perhaps one that 163 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,680 we enforce. But also, I think, you know, 164 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,440 particularly when you're talking about workload, you know, how 165 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,200 anything we can do to bridge that gap, I think is, you know, 166 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,920 is, is definitely to be, to be explored. 167 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,840 Because like if, if you're a secondary teacher with all that 168 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,720 expertise and, and that subject knowledge and perhaps 169 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,160 pedagogical content knowledge too, and you're thinking 170 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,440 actually, I need to on some level outsource some of the, the 171 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,640 design, then you know, it's, it's definitely going to be true 172 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,920 for primary teachers. You've got 13 subjects, not just 173 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,600 one. I'm always in awe of every 174 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,960 primary teacher. I don't know, yeah, Just having 175 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,120 all of them pleads to juggle and that's, yeah, I'm sure we'll 176 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,160 talk about it later, but providing as much support to 177 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,120 them colleagues is really important for us. 178 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,680 So I mean, let's let's start with a bit of scene setting. 179 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:53,880 What do you see as the main advantages of online learning 180 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,320 platforms in mathematics education? 181 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,040 Yeah. And it's potentially not going 182 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,800 to be surprised from what I've just said, but I think time 183 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,840 saving for teachers is and we'll we'll probably go into more 184 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,640 detail about how that then impacts the students. 185 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,440 But I think time saving for street teachers are so 186 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,800 important. Being able to have work that is 187 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,200 created depending on how much autonomy you want on that, but 188 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,440 then automatically worked and automatically feedback fed back 189 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,720 on is really important. Suppose, you know, there is, 190 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,480 there is other countries that have different teaching setups 191 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,640 and teachers have a lot more time for planning and 192 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,440 preparation and marking and feeding back. 193 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,480 But that's just not the reality in the UK. 194 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:41,640 We're Yeah, I think similar to what you've just said it's, you 195 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,480 know, that pedagogical knowledge takes a long time to develop, 196 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,720 even as a secondary teacher who was just teaching maths and that 197 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,120 still took still takes, I'm still learning takes years. 198 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,840 So a way to support non subject specialists and new teachers 199 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,400 being able to see all the bits that need to feed in for a child 200 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,600 to do a certain topic. I was thinking of trying to 201 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:09,600 trying to think of an example before, but and I thought of, 202 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:11,920 you know, adding fractions with different denominators. 203 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,960 If you have some data and obviously you don't know what 204 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,720 data you're with me, but if you can access the data and say this 205 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,120 child could do add infractions with the same denominator, you 206 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,480 know that that's not the issue. I think really helping them. 207 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,960 Yeah, new teachers pinpoint where misconceptions are in a 208 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,960 really granular way to help build their pedagogy. 209 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,520 But obviously they also help the students are in front of them at 210 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,840 that time. I mean that, yeah, I think all 211 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,400 of them. That and feeds into the student 212 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,880 progress side of it. But I think time saving for 213 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,440 teachers is a big one for me. Yeah. 214 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,680 So almost some of the administration tasks that 215 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:50,840 perhaps take a lot of time, is that the kind of thing that 216 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,560 we're saving time on? Yes, I saw, you know, Qlas 217 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,000 again, some schools love them, some schools not so much. 218 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,400 I think it depends what you're doing with them. 219 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,040 The way that our platform works is skills are based to really 220 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,600 granular sub skills. So any Qlas that are created or 221 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,160 really, you know, it's not going to say adding fractions, it's 222 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,480 going to say adding fractions where one fraction is a multiple 223 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,520 of the other that that granularity is really important. 224 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,920 I think Morgan is really like a big time. 225 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,840 I think it's yeah, Mark, because it's how much benefit does just 226 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,840 giving ticks and cross the end that that could be a whole of 227 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,080 that conversation, couldn't it? But I think just automatically 228 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,760 things being marked and getting that data for the teacher is 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,760 really important, but also for the child to just know, yeah, I 230 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,600 got that right or I didn't get that right is important and all. 231 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,120 There's different ways we're going to do that in the 232 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,640 classroom. But I think it's just, yeah, the 233 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,120 way that different online things and then the insights that 234 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:59,120 teachers can get from this data is, is the main advantages. 235 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,480 Where do you think the limitations or risks of online 236 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,240 platforms begin to emerge, particularly for younger 237 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,520 students? I think motivation and, and I 238 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,520 thought I'm going to lead on in a little bit and, and go on a 239 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:14,800 couple of different areas for this. 240 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,360 But because it could be that could be actually a positive 241 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,280 that students are getting instant feedback that things can 242 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,080 be really personalized to them, could be really motivational. 243 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,640 But on the other side of that, if a student's potentially 244 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,800 working independently and not getting the answers correct or 245 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,080 not not progressing as the one, maths I think is very unique in 246 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,120 that things can the, you know, you can always find positives. 247 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,280 I'm sure you can always find positives, but potentially when 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,840 an online platform, things are correct or incorrect, that could 249 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,480 be demotivating for students, especially if they've not built 250 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,000 up that resilience. I think that's like what we 251 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,560 really like as the autonomy on our platform, that student, that 252 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:01,400 teachers can set really specific things so that they can remove 253 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,560 that potential. You know, they can set things 254 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:06,800 that they're expecting the students to get right. 255 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,680 There's always links to work example videos as well. 256 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:14,000 So there is ways around that, but I think especially for 257 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,800 students who are potentially beginning to develop some 258 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,560 independence and and starting to work independently, we don't 259 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,480 want to, we don't want to scare them off. 260 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,960 We want to support them. And that that could be an issue. 261 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,920 And I think again, potentially looking at like more 262 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,480 disadvantaged the school serve and disadvantaged students, that 263 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,800 balance might be more one way than the other. 264 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,960 You know, we don't. We don't want to, yeah. 265 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,640 We don't want to increase any gaps. 266 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,640 We don't want we're more high attaining students. 267 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,160 We do want the high attaining students to keep making 268 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,320 progress, but we don't want that to then be an issue when we're 269 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,120 teaching in the classroom. Is that in terms of like access 270 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,000 for those peoples who already do well at maths, want to do the 271 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,320 platform more and then we'll and we'll have access to a tablet, 272 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,320 that kind of thing or is that what you're thinking? 273 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,800 I think there's, there's lots of different parts of that. 274 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,360 So yes, access is really important. 275 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,880 And that's that's sort of a lot to do with what I'm doing in my 276 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,600 work now. It's access physically having a 277 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,880 device, having the space and the time to actually be able to 278 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,280 complete work in a quiet space. It's not a luxury that every 279 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,200 student has. Again, just being having that 280 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,040 motivation that like already having that resilience built up 281 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,360 to think, yes, I want to keep working at this. 282 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,160 That's sort of another area of it. 283 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,360 And I think, yeah, it's just, I think there's definitely, yeah, 284 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,480 there's some schools doing amazing, amazing work via our 285 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,800 platform. And I think being able to really 286 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,320 know what students are doing and prepare them for that works 287 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,720 really well. But I mean, yeah, we all know 288 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,800 that there's a disadvantage gap as soon as students start 289 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,440 school. And at the minute that is just 290 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,520 why you didn't as students go through the years. 291 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,360 So I think it's just it's a responsible, it's to be 292 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,520 responsible to think about that and think how we are supporting 293 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,600 to close that gap as opposed to extend it. 294 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,400 And I think, I think your concerns about like the almost 295 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,560 the lack of flexibility that's inherent in a, in a, in a 296 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,000 virtual or online platform is, is, you know, it's certainly not 297 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,120 specific to anyone platform. You know, it's like most that I 298 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,200 explore and test item and stuff. What, you know, it's not quite a 299 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,200 teacher. And any claims of being a 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,960 teacher, you know, I think normally the ones, the trust are 301 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,520 the ones who actually know that actually this is not going to be 302 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,480 as effective as your your teacher. 303 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,560 You know, and we've seen things like the can Academy thing. 304 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,360 Actually, no, they're not They're not investing any more 305 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 money because it was actually, no, yeah, but a waste of time. 306 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,400 Yeah. So I think, yeah, I think you're 307 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,760 absolutely spot on. With that in mind, are there any 308 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,080 particular aspects of mathematics that online 309 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,240 platforms support especially well? 310 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,040 And perhaps are there any others you know inversely that they 311 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,720 they struggle to support? We're going to talk about how I 312 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,560 used it later on in the questions. 313 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,440 But I think really for consolidation, for retrieval of 314 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,880 things that students have already shown they can do in the 315 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,760 classroom, potentially independently, potentially with 316 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:21,240 a bit of scaffolding, but like a way to make sure that students 317 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,960 are seeing questions, retrieving them at appropriate times, space 318 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,680 times. I think an online platform can 319 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,000 work really, really well for that. 320 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,320 But as, as you know, as students go on, we'll want them to 321 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,480 increase in independence potentially. 322 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,920 So this, you know, potentially not for the listeners of this 323 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,920 podcast, but we'll want to get a place where students are 324 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,880 thinking, oh, I didn't get that. I want to watch this video, but 325 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,320 I don't think that's above a lot of definitely year five and six 326 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,520 students, you know, thinking that, oh, I didn't get that. 327 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,920 OK, well, I'm just going to there's a video here. 328 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,920 I'm going to watch that and I'm going to try and improve my 329 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,360 knowledge. And, you know, if that still 330 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,040 doesn't work, yeah, I know my teacher is going to look at this 331 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,160 and they're going to help us anyways. 332 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,320 But I think by the time we get then, you know, getting these 333 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:17,800 habits of self motivation, self improvement earlier on can only 334 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,920 do good things. And so then when students get 335 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,560 into secondary school or they get into ear levels, they've got 336 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,680 them skills and all that. Actually, if I can't do that, 337 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,360 that's OK because there's, there's things there that I can 338 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,960 do to help myself before I go and seek help from my teacher. 339 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,440 I think that's really general. I would say, you know, in terms 340 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,680 of things that, you know, we're definitely not at a place 341 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,520 technology wise. I supported some really 342 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,320 practical things that are really important earlier on in maths 343 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,000 understanding. A lot of times it's been sent 344 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,240 out our platform with Desmos for like measuring angles and, and 345 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,560 plotting straight line graphs. But it's still really important, 346 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,360 you know, I can't, I mean, you know, maybe in 50 years time 347 00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:59,800 there might be a way around. But you know, it's really 348 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,720 important that a student has time like holding a cube, saying 349 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,720 what a cube is, feeling that what that cube's a cube and 350 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,080 seeing how long a metre is as opposed to a 30 centimetre 351 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,080 ruler. Like these physical things are 352 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,080 not things that technologies out of place to to change. 353 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,200 And you're not manipulators. There's some online 354 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,240 manipulators, but still it's in my opinion really important that 355 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,440 students feel the years that have time working with these 356 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,320 things, younger students and older students. 357 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,440 And yeah, we're we're not at a place where technology's 358 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,840 replacing them things. No, I'm definitely not. 359 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,320 And there's also a question, but like even if virtual reality say 360 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,080 we're up to, they could do that, would we really want that 361 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,360 instead of real world like pouring water? 362 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,800 Yeah. Like using different beakers and 363 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,440 that kind of thing, you know, I mean, like you say, even just 364 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,320 playing with shapes and, and their properties, you know, do 365 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,120 you know, I think there's an argument to say actually, we 366 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,560 don't really want to, you know, we wouldn't want to digitize 367 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,640 that, would we? No, definitely not. 368 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,120 And, and that human element is, you know, so important in 369 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,440 teaching in especially, especially with younger students 370 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,800 and. And even, as you know, we're 371 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,440 we're we want human interaction, don't I? 372 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,240 So I can't, I can't see a time when that that that human 373 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,880 element would ever be replaced. It is just, yeah, like I said 374 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,600 before, really supporting them key skills retrieval and 375 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,920 consolidation of things that have definitely a prime level 376 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,520 already been taught by the teacher, already had that direct 377 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,960 instruction. And then students, the online 378 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,640 side of it really just helps to consolidate and keep students 379 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,280 remembering them things. Yeah. 380 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,360 So it's almost as if I think these online tools are really 381 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,880 good at the the not necessarily just the encoding element, but 382 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,880 the sort of supporting pupils in transferring things into long 383 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,600 term memory because we can, we can apply that space. 384 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920 And you know, because as a human it's really difficult to 385 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,280 remember when, when's the last time we did that. 386 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,520 But actually the is it SRS and sort of algorithms, they help us 387 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,440 to remember how long ago it was that we last tried to remember 388 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,000 something. So yes, I think well, but the 389 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,080 broader things get and the more open, you know, like I know like 390 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,120 a level and further maths and core maths, I think it's 391 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,440 particularly tricky to capture some of the, the mathematics. 392 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:21,920 I don't know, you mean you're the expert in this. 393 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,320 But certainly talking to people like Stuart, he'll say that 394 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,040 whenever he thinks about those things on that level, it's 395 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,600 always more difficult than it would be say with the, with the, 396 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,520 the, the primary curriculum as is. 397 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,040 Yeah, I think, I mean, I think yeah, space retrieval I think 398 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,120 yeah, you're right. There's more and more topics, 399 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,120 but I think as then topics increase like maths is 400 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,480 hierarchical, it's going to recall them pre skills in 401 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:51,480 different areas. So it's not as yeah, I mean it, 402 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,320 it's harder in terms of space retrieval and all that. 403 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,520 You know, you've students have only got a certain amount of 404 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,880 time, but I suppose as the increase in in age and when they 405 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,040 get a maths and further maths, they're going to or a level, 406 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,280 they're going to spend a lot more time on just them. 407 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,040 So actually, you know, the time that they have in primary and K 408 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,880 stage 3 and K stage 4, they've actually got a lot more time to 409 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,440 be retrieving them things. But it's it's a balance and I 410 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,880 suppose that it leads in what I said before about it's about 411 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,800 students being a bit more independent and actually certain 412 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,560 students won't need to practice some things as much and other 413 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,320 students will need to practice other topics. 414 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,000 And I think that's where online can really help students. 415 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,600 It doesn't have to be that we're all going to do this today. 416 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,840 Students can do the topics that they need, they need to work on, 417 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,560 that they need to retrieve, that they need to practice, and other 418 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:48,160 students can work on others. I I think like Doctor Frost, 419 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,680 most secondary teachers. Maybe I'm just living in a 420 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,680 bubble. We're fairly aware of of of what 421 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,760 Doctor Frost is of Jamie in particular. 422 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,120 And but I'm not I'm not sure how far the message has gotten 423 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,120 across the primary. I mean do you think to what high 424 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,280 probe do you think platforms like Doctor Frost Learning are 425 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,240 for key states to two age students for instance? 426 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,520 Yeah, I I would completely agree. 427 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,840 It's very rare that I speak to a teacher from secondary who 428 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,760 hasn't used Doctor Frost resources or hasn't even used 429 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,520 the platform themselves. But I think that's very 430 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,040 different when I have spoke to primary colleagues that often 431 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,520 that often don't know a lot about the platform or resources. 432 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,560 And we do have a lot of resources now that go into key 433 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,480 stage 2. A lot of time was spent on these 434 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,320 full topic resources. And I do think they are really 435 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,480 useful just to say sort of where the matters potentially lead and 436 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,640 as well. So some of that I worked on were 437 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,480 like, they're not. So the full topic resources 438 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,000 aren't just like week 4, lesson 2, you're going to teach this. 439 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,440 They're not split up like that. The ones I worked worked on, one 440 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,840 of them was year 4 or year 9. So it helps. 441 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:04,000 I think talking about the non specialist and yeah, non subject 442 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,880 specialist teachers, just seeing where things are going to lead 443 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,280 can be really useful. I think. 444 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:15,120 Let let us you know, I alluded to it in my introduction that 445 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,720 actually a lot of the maths that key stage 2 students are doing, 446 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,400 key Stage 4 students are still struggling with. 447 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:28,440 So in terms of the skills and what they need to practice, it 448 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,040 is the same for so many students or from, you know, the way that 449 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,560 our the way that our platform is. 450 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,960 Then granular skills will have the year. 451 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,000 We'll have year three question generate as what from key stage, 452 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,440 the beginning of key Stage 2 that actually was year 10 453 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,440 students still practicing them. You have 11 students, I'm sure 454 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,080 as well. So in terms of the content, it's 455 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,520 really, really aimed as well at K Stage 2 students. 456 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:03,040 I think the added bonus of using a platform, there's other ones. 457 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,840 I know there's, there's plenty of other ones out there, but 458 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,520 using a platform like ours that is going to keep with students 459 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,520 as opposed to just really supporting them at that precise 460 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,720 time is that we can then hopefully get parents on board. 461 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,280 And parents, I know this is they'll be primary, you know, 462 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,720 primary teachers listening to this. 463 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,040 And I'm sure, I think, oh, you know, it's a struggle to get 464 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,240 parents on board depending on context, context, whatever the 465 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,440 age, but I think there's more likelihood of getting parents on 466 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,760 board as like the younger. We're going to introduce these 467 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,800 platforms. And but my hope is that if a 468 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,800 student was using this in Year 5 or year 6, that's true, that 469 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,640 parents would be aware of it. And hopefully they would say 470 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,600 that, oh, so actually you can cut, you know, even if the goat 471 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,400 was secondary school that didn't use the platform and they'll 472 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,880 know that that contents there. And if they ever need some 473 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,320 support, even if it's just as a free student account, then know 474 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,080 that it's there. We'll have courses, over 200 475 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,600 courses built on the website that can, you know, help parents 476 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:01,920 see where the children are going. 477 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,640 And I suppose the other side way when parents want to give that, 478 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,560 that higher level of support, the platform does that really 479 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,560 well. It can really, it really shows 480 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,680 parents and teachers, but parents are talking about the 481 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,360 minute like, what is it that your child needs to needs to 482 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,360 work on? So I do think that's potentially 483 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,640 particularly what's really useful for lower for K Stage 2 484 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,240 students. So how did you use Doctor Frost 485 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,400 Learning in your own context, and what did it look like in 486 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,920 practice? Yeah, So in the middle school I 487 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,360 was in we like I generally used it for retrieval. 488 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:52,880 I used it on like previous years topics or knowledge that 489 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,800 students should have done last year or not should have that 490 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520 should have learnt last year. Just because they learnt it last 491 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,520 year doesn't mean they remember it. 492 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,280 And I used it to then help plan my lessons that were upcoming. 493 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,000 So I was using a lot of like the like set and prerequisite stuff 494 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,800 topics so that I knew when students got onto. 495 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,360 We've used fractions. I feel like fractions is a 496 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,200 really key one in primary, and yet, you know, there's no point 497 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,720 in jumping in in yeah, 6 teaching mixed numbers if they 498 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,080 can't add fractions with the same denominator. 499 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:31,080 So by given that as homework in the weeks before teaching them 500 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,160 topics, I was able to get that data. 501 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:39,720 It was a large middle school. It was 7 form entry, so we did 502 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,440 set formats, which I know is going to be different in other 503 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,120 like most primary schools, but you will have them groups that 504 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,640 need more support. And I think just having that 505 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,640 awareness of where your cohort is and where different groups 506 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,280 are, I found I might just sound really useful. 507 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,400 I used it as well just to increase try and increase 508 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,680 motivation. So setting the same topics for a 509 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,840 period of time. So students are trying to reward 510 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,400 that effort and them just being that little bit self 511 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,400 self-directed with improvement. So it might be that they only 512 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,680 got, you know, 12 out of 20 week 1, but actually, as long as they 513 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,960 got 30 and out of 20 the next week, we're, we're really trying 514 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:27,720 to focus on raising the effort, which, you know, which I'm sure 515 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,040 like lots, which all teachers are doing as opposed to the 516 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,160 outcome and just reminding them about watching the work example 517 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,560 videos. And I did well, we did use it a 518 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:38,840 lot. So we've got all the Sats. 519 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,040 We'll do it. Well, I'm seeing this in 520 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,800 probably the wrong week. We did have all the Sats papers 521 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,720 up the up to the current time. We will have up to 2025 and we 522 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,040 will have 2026 very soon. And just to give students them 523 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,240 the exposure leading into Sats. You know, why never? 524 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,880 It's the balance. Sats are important, the key 525 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,880 skills a lot. You know, we could, we could do 526 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,040 a full of other debate about what should be on Sats and what 527 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,040 shouldn't be. But the the fact of it is that 528 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,560 that students sit these and we want to prepare them as much as 529 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,960 possible and just allowing them to see what's going to come up, 530 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,000 you know, giving them that exposure of lots of papers, but 531 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,000 without taking away loads of teacher time worked really well, 532 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,440 you know, and it was automatically marked. 533 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,520 It wasn't that because I know some schools use the platform 534 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,480 and especially primary schools might use the platform in 535 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,360 lessons or in school time. So no, maybe it's not going to 536 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,760 save time in the lesson, but actually the marking of them and 537 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,240 going through it that way is going to save teacher time if 538 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,400 they're doing them online. And then it also aggregates that 539 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,240 data rope. So just because a student 540 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,320 couldn't do a question once, they might have just made a 541 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,720 mistake. But actually, if they can't do 542 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320 that same topic three weeks in a row, well, actually, you know, 543 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,480 you need to do some. We need to hopefully do 544 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,480 something about it. Same as a cohort. 545 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,280 If there's certain areas that are weaker than others, it 546 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,440 really helps to pinpoint that when they've done things for a 547 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:07,400 few weeks. I also used it all to really 548 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,200 think about the cohorts of students we've got. 549 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,600 So there's no, the, the full SAT papers are there and we lead an 550 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,880 up to SAT. I was given the vast majority of 551 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,320 students full SAT papers to look at, but there was them students 552 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,360 that I wasn't doing that with and I was able to look at the 553 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,040 year 3 year, 4 Year 5 curriculum standards and get them to focus 554 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,480 on them questions. The questions that are, you 555 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,520 know, typically at the beginning of the SAT papers and really 556 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,280 build their confidence in that part of the paper which was 557 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,000 really useful just being able to. 558 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,840 Yeah, give them the. Work that was appropriate for 559 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,440 them at that time. Nice. 560 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,880 And so in. Like in terms of the chicken and 561 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,520 the egg, was Doctor Frost's learning giving you the 562 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,000 approach, or was it your approach on top of the, I'm 563 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,600 talking about Doctor Frostnard, if that makes sense. 564 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,960 So would you have behaved in the same way, but just with 565 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,920 different resources, or did the resources determine how you 566 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,680 behaved in the in the classroom and your your approach, your 567 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,080 pedagogy, your practice? Yeah, good. 568 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,120 Question. I suppose there was nothing that 569 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,880 I did that you couldn't have done with other resources. 570 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,360 It's the time, it's like, you know, the time to go through and 571 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,440 make purpose made year 3 and year 4 fraction questions that 572 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,000 are SAT that are just SAT questions and actually, you 573 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,920 know, being able to give it a that cohort. 574 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,000 But actually are they doing well? 575 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,000 So now I'm going to add them to the cohort that's getting the 576 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,600 full topic of them not having to then print like, you know, I 577 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,280 think we're underestimate how long printing can really take. 578 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,160 And sometimes and if we're given different groups, really 579 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:47,880 personalized assessments, I would have, you know, times 580 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,760 really valuable and teacher time especially and would have had 581 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,160 the time to tailor all these different groups. 582 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,880 If I wasn't using an online platform like Doctor Frost 583 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720 maths, I don't know, I don't think I would have. 584 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,280 So I think I was able to then do this approach because I had the 585 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,600 because the platform gave me that like had the functionality 586 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,280 to do it. And so I mean. 587 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,800 It's not, it's not meant to be a trick question. 588 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,760 And just because I think whenever I talk to people about 589 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,720 this, some people want a resource because of the model 590 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,000 that it's provides. And so like this is, this is the 591 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,640 pedagogical approach that we're going to take. 592 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,760 And here are the tools that are very specific designed that. 593 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,040 But there are other instances where people want to take their 594 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,920 model and apply it and map it onto the resources. 595 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,080 Do you know? So obviously, like, I mean, the 596 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,480 inclusion of working examples suggests that there's a 597 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:40,160 particular type of, umm, pedagogical approach, certainly 598 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,880 close to Doctor Frost if not built into it. 599 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,880 And so I'm trying to understand if if I'm a leader making the 600 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,960 decision, am I bringing my pedagogy or am I taking 601 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,320 pedagogy? You know, like I said, it's not 602 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,560 a trick question. There's no right or wrong 603 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,160 answer, I don't think. But from a leader's perspective, 604 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,280 those are the choices. I think that's the thing in some 605 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,000 people's mind is, eh, is it going to follow my scope and 606 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,960 sequence and B, what's the impact going to be on teaching 607 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,920 and learning? So from your experience, was it 608 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,920 which? Which of those was? 609 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,040 Which direction was it pulling? Yeah, I would. 610 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,040 I would say the last. I'm honest that that that 611 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,480 there's a high amount of teacher autonomy developed in other 612 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,680 websites. So I touched on the courses 613 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,280 before, but the like all them granular skills can be ordered 614 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,920 in any way that a school once we have 200 made courses, but 615 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,600 schools, leaders, teachers can order them and make custom 616 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,560 courses however they want. So that in terms of sequencing, 617 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,560 that's going to come up. Then the way that the the worked 618 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,640 example, there's work examples videos that generally go on one 619 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,080 way, but the some questions with model solutions might have more 620 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,560 than one method. This is yeah, it is. 621 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,200 It's tricky to them to give something one-size-fits-all, 622 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,880 isn't it? I would say that the platform 623 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,680 just offers that autonomy for teachers to implement it in a 624 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,720 way that they want to. And it might be that, you know, 625 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,520 for some really deep think and questions, I think, you know, in 626 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,440 terms of like open, you know, open answer questions platforms 627 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,320 like Doctor Fosmass and other platform, you know, we want 628 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,480 students thinking and well, of course we want students 629 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,920 thinking, but we want students, you know, being able to answer 630 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,320 more open-ended things and ask questions. 631 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,480 Like they aren't the things that are being addressed with an 632 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,360 online platform. I think they are definitely more 633 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,440 practicing the key skills that is question general, we'll call 634 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,920 them question generators, but our courses, our granular skills 635 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,480 where it's then I'm just, I did one this morning with someone 636 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,199 and it was on factors and multiples and then it went on 637 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,639 using factors and multiples in context. 638 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,840 And so there's definitely questions there and like that 639 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,960 use lots of problem solve them. We've got your older UKMT papers 640 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,000 and primary versions on as well. So there is them questions that 641 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,200 are more than problem solving and and interesting questions. 642 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,960 Umm, but I would say it's yeah, it was. 643 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,360 It can be the systems adapted to how the teachers or the leaders 644 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,720 want to use it. Did the did using the platform 645 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:26,360 change anything about your teaching homework, assessment, 646 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000 pupil independence, where there was any impact on any of those 647 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,440 things in your in your classes? Yeah, so I would. 648 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,680 Say I sort of alluded to it, but like no one prerequisite, no one 649 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,760 my students are with the prerequisites of upcoming topics 650 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,440 just really allowed me to focus the time that we've got with 651 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,160 students where it needs to be. So, you know, I did, yeah, 652 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,560 ideally we're going to a point where students are watching them 653 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,080 worked example videos. But actually, when we're talking 654 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,400 potentially, you know, particularly with key stage 2 655 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,280 students, it's more just a diagnostic tool for me to say 656 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:07,120 where they are and getting the most out of the limited time 657 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,240 we've got with them. It also as a leader as a head of 658 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,280 department helps say all right well we're not spending enough 659 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,880 time on this topic because students aren't then getting 660 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,440 where I need them to be or you know times just so precious with 661 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,560 for teachers and with with students. 662 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,000 I think that's probably the biggest impact in terms of 663 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,720 knowing where they are and yeah then being able to deliver the 664 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:39,400 teaching that they need. I did use it as well when staff 665 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,640 and sickness was quite high. That was really useful for end 666 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,560 of term. It's sorry, end of topic 667 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,080 assessments just so then you know, realistically, so I wasn't 668 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,080 Morgan seven classes of assessments. 669 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,560 Just being able to get that data straight away was a really 670 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,720 practical a practical thing when I was a head of the apartment. 671 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:04,720 And I think all of these things, because then the way that we 672 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,880 worked, it's sometimes they've had a little bit, but that there 673 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,000 was centrally set homework for different cohorts and different 674 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,720 teachers would take responsibility. 675 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,560 But like different year groups potentially it just give 676 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,000 teachers like teachers weren't then thinking of their own 677 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,440 homework and then printing it and then giving it out and then 678 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,680 marking it. It just give then teachers more 679 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,120 time to actually think about right. 680 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,600 Well, what am I doing with the students when they're in my, 681 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,880 when I've got them, when it's maths time as a, as opposed to 682 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,640 having a plan and prep that outside of maths learning, Yeah, 683 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,200 which is ultimately. What we want for our teachers 684 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,880 rather than to focus on the things that matter, don't we 685 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,640 rather the things that we've managed to put in their way that 686 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:48,840 don't really make much difference in the in the 687 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,000 classroom or the school. So how do you how do you think 688 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,240 teachers should think about the balance between technology, 689 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,440 teacher explanation, direct interaction and mathematics 690 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,600 learning? What's what's that balance look 691 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,280 like and what do you think would be useful for teachers to think 692 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,400 consider? Yeah, I would, I mean, yeah, 693 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,640 sort of just set up, I would say seeing technology as a 694 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,120 diagnostic tool to get the most out of our time with students. 695 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,240 No one where students are so that we can tailor that direct 696 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,480 instruction to get the most out of them. 697 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,160 No one if they know the prerequisites also that we can 698 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,440 plan more explanations, we can plan how we're going to deliver 699 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,640 that learning. It's all it's still going to 700 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,280 happen that we'll go to plan a lesson and actually students 701 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,720 didn't know one part of it and things like that derailed and we 702 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:42,080 need to go backwards. But actually by having this day 703 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,040 and aggregate in it all the time, we'll want to reduce that 704 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,000 as much as possible because we want to want especially for when 705 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,000 you are teachers, when on subject specialists, we want 706 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,040 them to be able to deliver lessons that they've planned, 707 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,400 that they've thought about the instruction and the tasks that 708 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,520 then come from that. And I think, I think that's 709 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,320 where the balance is like seeing technology as as as an 710 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,200 instrument, as a, as a way to as a tool to allow teachers to get 711 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,240 the best use of time with, to make the best use of time with 712 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:16,920 the students is how I would say it. 713 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:18,120 Yeah. Which which I. 714 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,840 I totally agree with you know, there's lots of the discussion 715 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,240 about especially but large language models and what the 716 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,520 impact of quote UN quote artificial intelligence. 717 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,320 You know, it seems like the eel is wagging the dog and you know, 718 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,640 I'm not I'm not you probably tell about my attitude. 719 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,280 I'm not I'm not completely sold on its place. 720 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,600 No and I. Completely agree. 721 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,800 I can't imagine a tie. It's just not, you know, I think 722 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,680 if we knew exactly how, if, if everything went to perfectly and 723 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,480 we got exactly students were exactly the same on the start in 724 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,240 reception and when you were delivered something, they'd 725 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,400 learn it. And then, yeah, we'd have to 726 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,920 retrieve it. But then the next lesson they're 727 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,680 going to learn this and that's going to happen every year. 728 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,480 Everyone would leave school with grade 9 maths and we wouldn't be 729 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,240 talking about this now because it would be solved like that's. 730 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,440 That's not the reality of. Of teaching, it's not the 731 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,640 reality of students, even students who are in, you know, 732 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,360 other other, like you just don't know what's happened in their 733 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,280 day already. You don't know if they've had 734 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,400 breakfast. You don't know how well they're 735 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,640 going to learn something. There's so many factors that fit 736 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,040 into things. And yeah, potentially if every 737 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,480 student was predictable, then we would, we could just sit them in 738 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,120 front of, you know, potentially a computer 5 hours a day and 739 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,360 they would learn everything. But that's just not, that's not 740 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,200 what the reality of, of where we are. 741 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,080 And I can't imagine a time we ever are, but yeah. 742 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,760 Like you said that that human interaction, that social element 743 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,440 of school and even mathematics to an extent, you know, because, 744 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,240 yeah, because it's so much of mathematics is cultural, you 745 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,480 know, and you know, well, you need to have people for it to be 746 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,680 cultural, you know, can't just be computers. 747 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:53,080 Yeah. So. 748 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,760 But that is another conversation for another, another day. 749 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,880 So I mean, some people are interested and they're thinking, 750 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,240 OK, this sounds, you know, I want to, I want to find out more 751 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,280 where they where they going to? What's the best thing? 752 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,240 Yeah. Umm, they can go to the website. 753 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:08,240 We give free trials, 60 day free trials currently. 754 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,680 Umm, they can e-mail me if they want some really primary 755 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,360 specific, if they want someone to talk to really primary 756 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,000 specific. So my name's Hannah dot Hogg at, 757 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,840 well, not me, name me. Name's not this, sorry, but me 758 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,120 e-mail address is hannah.hogg@doctorfrost.org. 759 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:28,840 And yeah, would really welcome a conversation really that, you 760 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,400 know, that is my job to see how it could work in your context 761 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,880 and would really welcome people to trial it out potentially at 762 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,240 this time of year where there might be a little bit more time, 763 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:42,920 but maybe not. And yeah, there's, there's 764 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,600 things on the website there's about I can point people in the 765 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,240 right direction if they'd like to get in touch. 766 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,800 Now is the time to be. Thinking about what, what might 767 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:50,720 we do? You know, there's no change 768 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:53,520 going to be made now, but certainly space for thinking, 769 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,680 you know, like despite sports day, etcetera, you know, phonic 770 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,280 screening checks and the like. So it's, it's been absolutely 771 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,480 lovely chatting with you, Hannah. 772 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,280 And I'm sure people have been really interested in your, a, 773 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,400 your experience and B, also your expertise in this particular 774 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,680 area, because I think it's something we, you know, as 775 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,000 skeptical as I am, it's something that we need to deal 776 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,120 with. We can't, you know, we can't 777 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,280 just put our head. I can't put my head in the sand 778 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,480 and hope that, you know, people will just get over it 779 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,400 eventually. And so, yeah, So I think it 780 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:22,680 would be really. So all I said to just say thank 781 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,320 you very much for joining me. It's an absolute pleasure. 782 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:25,880 Yeah. Thank you very much for. 783 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,800 Having me, it's been a pleasure and thank you and everyone at 784 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,640 home. Until next time, thanks for 785 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:31,040 listening.