Drew, I'm ready. Sorry I fucked it up.
Go again, Drew. Andy, I've got something I want
to talk Hello, Andy here from Tracks of
Our Queers, the podcast in which I interview fascinating LGBTQ
plus people about the music that has soundtracked their lives.
Brand new episodes of Electric Conversations are just a few
weeks away, but right now I'm indulging in the artist who has
soundtracked my life, the one and only mother that's with an
A, not an ER, and the only woman who could resurrect the infamous
Oral Fixation, the podcast I Co hosted with my bestie Drew from
2019 to 2022. Drew, like me, is an enormous
Madonna fan. So the two of us were chomping
at the Mike a mere 36 hours after the release of Confessions
2 just last week. This album is a special one,
incredibly contemporary and future facing, while deeply
referential and reverential of her fascinating past.
It's been a bumpy ride at times for Madonna fans pretty much
since the first Confessions album, but this record is a
triumph. So if you're interested in
listening to two homosexuals violently agree with each other
regarding the creative pursuits of a 67 year old woman, you're
in the right place. If you're more interested in the
less unhinged, somewhat calmer reflections of standard tracks
of our Queers programming, mark your Diaries as I'm looking to
kick off Season 7 before the month is over.
Finally, tech checks and Airpods are a vibe kill.
It took us half an hour to get Drew set up for this chat and
then my microphone went and did me dirty.
So forgive me in advance. It can be very airpod voice noty
at times, but for now it all started like this.
I have a confession. Go on.
I'm Kim Cattrall. You're Michael Patrick King.
You've been trying for years to get me to return.
And like Kim Cattrall in the Season 2 finale event, just like
that, I said I've got some demands they included.
I don't want to touch an editing piece of editing software.
I barely want to touch social media.
I'll repost whatever's posted and it has to be a discussion.
About mother and we docusigned that contract earlier today and
that is what's led to the first oral fixation episode in about 5
years, maybe half a decade, half a decade.
I've been following tracks of our quiz, Your Side project with
gusto, with aplomb. I love it.
Let the record let me say this on my I love it so much.
You're Kirstie Young. I said this to you off my you're
a journalist. I actually feel really nervous
right now because I'm out of practice doll, you do this every
week. I've been standing around, we've
had listeners, we've had half an hour of tech fuckery.
Let's just say that. But we got.
Here we are, here we are. And so over the years we've
danced, we've flirted with the idea of if we were ever to come
back to orphitation, what would it be?
Would it be KD Lang? Would it be steps?
I've got Will Young, Will, Will Young.
But it took mother to bring us back together and we had a
request from a fan, I believe, didn't we?
A fan was like. We did shout out to Liv.
We did so obviously on Friday the 3rd of July.
Confessions 2 drops and with it I dropped everything.
We all collectively dropped. Any gay man over 35 dropped
everything. I'd say actually 28 around about
now I think. Reckon is that OK?
That's the word on the street. So funny how conversation so
quickly turns to my gals and we were chatting about it and deep
sister-in-law of the pod live said to me we need and you were
all fixation episode and I said it'll just be Andy and I
violently agreeing with each other for an hour and a half.
So if you've tuned in, if you've tuned in because I don't know,
you've seen this pop up on the Internet or that could be a bit
presumptuous of me to assume, but maybe you just maybe this is
in the tracks of our quiz feed and you're like, oh.
Maybe I should be? Yeah, like I'm really what's
happening here. Before we go any further, just
know you're about to listen to two faggots violently agreeing
with each other. All right?
Don't say we didn't warn you. Twas ever thus.
Why now? Why this sperm right now?
I've got my thoughts. I think that this isn't the
first time that a new Madonna album has dropped since we've
been friends, since Oral Fixation was Life Has Been Life.
But there's something different about Confessions too, and it
feels certainly in the corner of the Internet that I'm occupying.
This is being lauded as her best album since Confessions on the
Dance Floor, so it warrants discussion.
I've I have got something to talk about.
I actually don't think that this is necessarily the sequel to
Confessions that it's been branded as.
I think that's a brand. I think there are two things
that tied to Confessions, I think the transitions and the
flawless mixing exec producing by Stuart Price, and that it's
dance music. Beyond that, after having
listened to this start to finish maybe about 11 Times Now, I
don't really see any other connective tissue too.
There are Sonic siblings. There are.
Sonic Siblings. But just as much as it connects
to confessions, it also connects to erotica.
Bedtime Stories, Ray of Light. I really feel like this album is
looking reflectively at that kind of golden period where
every album was untouchable. And yes, it has Stuart Price's
amazing exec producing fingers all over it, but I actually
think this is the musical output of all of the energy that she
put into being determined to make this film of her life.
And then that didn't work. So then she went on tour and
that was great, but then she still wanted to do this creative
thing about her life. So then she tried to do the TV
show, but she couldn't buy back the script to the film.
So she was like, suck it, I'm going to make an album.
This album is the biography of her life.
I believe that she couldn't turn into a film or ATV show.
That's really interesting. When it dropped, we were
violently agreeing with each other on the text and I kind of
hinted at the same thing. I said it's not.
It is a sequel, but it's not just a sequel.
To your point, I think I said something around along the lines
of it picks up on all of the strands of her DNA that have
really worked and builds on them.
Or MDN AM. DNA My question to you then is
if you think it is this kind of it's obviously very biographical
dance interior is the story of her beginning even from the
first, the beginning of the album.
I feel so free which you've heard.
Before. But hearing it at the beginning,
in that context of it being part of the whole album and it and
that those that line, by the way, it all started like this.
It is very autobiographical. Do you, I'm probably shouldn't
ask this question And no, it might piss you off.
I don't care. Do you think this is her last
great album? Wow.
Well, that's a question of which the events of the last few days
have just thrown out of the window.
I feel like this is the appropriate Segway.
Now to reflections on the last what it's been like to be a fan
for the last 20 years or whatever, because since this
first Confessions album, the albums that have followed,
there's been moments of greatness.
But every time an albums come out, I've found myself having
these conversations, as many Madonna fans have of will we
have to get an album as good as Confessions again.
Now that is entirely unusual for an artist to has dabbled in all
these different genres, but pretty much from so you've got
this imperial phase where it's all of the singles through the
80s through to the Immaculate Collection, let's say.
And then from that onwards you've got erotica really
through erotica through to Confessions, Untouchable albums
where yeah, there's some dubs on all of them, but they're stand
out amazing Madonna albums. And then so from Confessions
onwards, every album I think maybe sold half as much as the
previous album. Yes, we were into the streaming
gear by then. So C DS weren't moving as much,
but there was this sense of diminishing returns every time.
It was like, it's something's amiss here, right?
Has she just given up on music? She's turned her attention to
clothing lines and opening up gyms around the world and
growing a family and unhinged selfies on Instagram, etcetera,
etcetera. So to your point of do you think
this is the last great album? The last few years for me and
many of the Madonna fans have been really challenging.
I really thought we're not going to get another good album again.
It's that ship has sailed, justifying extreme Occident.
Has been right. I don't search I.
Find. But overall, yeah, it's been
really rough. And there's been a lot of
gaslighting going on. I feel like we've, me and you
would have been around dinner party tables or like, online
discourse where we have defended mother against the onslaught of
ageism and misogyny. But I myself have often gone
inward. And for Is she too old?
Is it all over? Has this untouchable woman who
always would create greatness? Are those days over?
And in the last few days I've been proven wrong.
I feel like we have just received the dividends of an
investment, if you will. I think we've invested in Mother
and we've had a couple of decades where that investment
has wobbled and wavered and we've doubted.
And she's just proven why we invested all along.
What do you think it is? What is the special ingredient?
Is it Stuart Price? Is it moving labels and this
sort of the marketing and the storytelling behind it being
stronger? Is it that she's just returning
to this place that she feels really comfortable?
What do you think is the reason that this is the time that the
dividends are finally showing returns?
I guess it, I can't assume too much beyond what she shared with
the public, but I think definitely having a near death
experience a couple of years ago when she had that bacterial
infection where she was in a coma.
And that's the closest this kind of totally invulnerable woman
was totally. Vulnerable with the world?
And then to rally herself and then go on this kind of greatest
hits world tour of which she hasn't done before, where we
could see her vulnerabilities on stage.
We could see that she couldn't quite dance like she once did.
Maybe her vocals were a bit wobblier.
But it's like the those rooms were so full of love because
this woman had rallied herself through a near death experience
and was finally celebrating her back catalog in a way which felt
authentic to herself and to fans.
It was like, oh, she's had this second chance, this new lease if
anything. So I think that has been a big
part to play in it. I think certainly getting back
in a room with someone like Stuart Price, who is a highly
trusted collaborator, he was her musical director on the
Celebration tour. So that seemed to be like a kind
of reunion for them. I don't know the insurance and
outs of how record labels work, but for sure, she left Warner
Brothers, went to Interscope for these albums, which were on the
dodgier side. And she even said to herself,
there's this infamous comment that she posted on her manager's
Instagram in, I think 2019 where she was like, what I'd give to
just be allowed to work in a room with one trusted artist
rather than being forced to sit in these writing camps with
people who can't sit still for more than 15 minutes.
And it's OK, Shay, they might have ADHD, but she was
recognising what other people have recognised before.
Can I just say I had been blocked by mother on Instagram
for raising this very topic with her since 2015.
Let's not run on. Well, that that brings me to my
next question, which is do you think there's a correlation
between her following Ingrid back and suddenly something?
It's Ingrid, it's Ingrid for sure.
Look, there are through lines there.
There's through lines is. Ingrid a bit mugged off that she
didn't get to cameo in the Dance Materia film clip.
And she didn't. Did she get name checked?
Let me. Just get her on the phone.
Can you? This is where I think Oral
Fixation sung the most, which is me student you teacher.
Obviously I got a couple of the references from the dance
material rundown, but what are some of the really big hits in
there? Can you talk us through who was
in that club with her? What was going on?
Get on the elevator. I run into Debbie Mazar, the
biggest to the third floor. Walk us to the dance.
Floor I can't I really can't imagine someone listening to
this podcast episode who hasn't heard dance material yet.
But if you haven't, it's the story of her arriving to New
York. Essentially Debbie Mazar the
Debbie Mazar Sharp's Debbie Mazar met her 42 years ago.
Still best friends to this day. Love it for someone who is known
for forming these relationships and casting them aside when she
gets bored of them. Love to see Debbie stick around.
There's the doorman of the Danceteria club, the B52's David
Buck, who's the DJ that they'd like to coke with him to get
this her songs played. Right, yes.
So Mark Hamans, I think that's his name.
He was the infamous Danceteria DJ.
And so the story goes that she would go to the club, she'd
stalk the club with a cassette with everybody on it, Everybody,
someone dancing, everybody get a bell, do your thing.
And she finally, yeah, did, maybe did a bit of blow, got in
the DJ booth, got him to to hit play.
And that's where it all began. It all starts like this.
You said something to me that I, I, yeah, I violently agreed with
where there are many moments on this album where it could have
been a disaster. And I think from what I when I
remember seeing the track list for this album come out and
seeing the subtitle dance materia, it didn't excite me.
I thought, oh, this could be a real cringe fest.
This could be like a real, I don't know.
I don't know what to expect. I just thought it could just go
terribly, but it's flawless. What do you think?
I've got to say, I had one of the things that we've spoken
about quite a lot when Madam X came out and it was sort of, we
were starting to see signs of it in Rebel Heart, but Madam X
really was the moment for me where and this is not.
I really need to make a point that this is not intended in any
way that is ageist. It's just a fact that when we
age our voices change and perhaps the notes that we could
hit when we were 2530, we can't hit anymore.
Madonna, as she has aged, has probably been able to hit less
of the notes. She can still give it a good red
hot crack and there are moments of brilliance in this record.
But the thing that I struggled with I think most with Madam X,
other than the fact that some of it was just fucking bad shit
crazy, is that the production, some of the production on her
voice on a significant number of the songs made it so that it was
actually quite sort of. I found it a little bit
difficult to listen to or not necessarily pleasurable to
listen to her voice because of the auto tune or whatever
treatment had been given to it. And taking pleasure in listening
to music is one of the baselines for me.
I want to enjoy the sound that I'm hearing.
So when I Feel So Free came out, which is the first song that we
heard, I was a little bit trepidatious because there is a
bit of that sort of, I don't know, like auto tune up to 11
kind of treatment to it. And I was like, oh, OK, how's
this going to go? I'm going.
To say I wish you I could be like other people, it's just not
cute. But I'm really delighted to say
that doesn't really carry through in the album.
Look, obviously her vocal range is shorter and she's working
with that within that range, but she's doing it really
comfortably. There are no skips on this album
to me so far. You've said you've listened to
it 11 times. I'm probably sitting at about
5:00, but there really are no skips.
I absolutely love every single song on this album and it's such
a treat. It is an overwhelming experience
as a Madonna fan to kind of get this, and I think that we
haven't had that since Confessions, maybe because of
Apropos, the fact that it is all one thing, it's one continuous
product that you're being given. So that might have something to
do with it. But I am, I don't want to say
relieved because that feels disrespectful, but I'm just so
elated that I love it and that everyone else seems to love it
too. I think I am relieved.
I don't know, and I don't say that I don't mean that in a
disrespectful way. I am so relieved.
I feel validated. I don't want to labour on this
capitalist metaphor of finally getting the dividends from an
investment that I feel like I've had to.
I haven't had to, but I've wanted to defend this woman,
this artist so much because she's made some very
questionable artistic choices in the last 15 to 20 years that I
haven't fully agreed with that. Before that, she was the
blueprint. She is the blueprint.
You've got an untouchable run of 80s, nineties singles.
You've got the albums I've already talked about, which are
all fully incredible. We're surrounded by pop stars
today who openly on their their sleeves say the ray of my album
is why I do this, the erotica album is why I do this, blah
blah blah. And so I've tried to remind
people that she might be a bit cringe on at this award show
with dodgy filler. She might be wearing this really
bonkers outfit. She might be posting these
cringe selfies, but don't disrespect her pot respect on
her name. And then I've walked away and
thought, why should they? She is being a bit cringe.
So for this entire campaign, not just the album, the entire
campaign has been so flawless. It is a relief to me as a fan.
It's no, I wasn't making all of this up.
I wasn't imagining how good she was.
She actually is this girl. She just had her.
Yeah, it's real. It's real.
Do you think I want to thinking you sound.
Are you OK? If you're wondering if I'm OK, I
am OK, yeah. Plant based.
Fran wants to know. Are you OK?
Yes, shout out to plant based Fran.
We miss you, Fran, we miss you and we miss the emails.
I want to take us back. I want to take us back to the
original and I'd like to hear from you.
Andy, what was your experience of the first Confessions album?
How did that come into your atmosphere?
I wasn't the psychotic Madonna fan then that I am today.
I was familiar with things like the Ray of Light album and I
remember my sister having the Erotica album, but I wasn't a
fan. I became a fan when I watched on
Channel 4 the broadcast of the Confessions tour.
So of course when the album came out, I was familiar.
In the ether of this is a pop star who's been around for a
while and she's having this big moment where everyone loves the
album. Hung Up is amazing.
I remember buying Get Together on the iTunes store, but it was
still just like, she was just like another pop star to me.
And then I was watching. I was in my childhood bedroom
watching. Channel 4 on.
TV on this tiny TV and the Confessions tour was on and I
wonder actually if it was the song Live to Tell that she was
performing because I knew that I was familiar with Live to Tell
as a ballad from the radio, but I was and I it was a very 80s
song to me. But on this TVI was seeing this
pop star as disco Jesus on a disco ball crucifix singing this
song, beautiful vocals, beautiful theatrical outfits.
And something clicked in my head where I thought, oh, this is an
artist who takes material from her past and reinvents it.
And that's interesting to me. That's quite cool.
I ran And then I watched the whole
thing and I was blown away. And I really think that then
made me go back to previous. I found it very fascinating that
she had this kind of wealth of material from her back catalog,
but she was still a very contemporary artist.
And so I would watch these videos online of different tour
performances and I'd delve into the albums and I guess at some
point then I would go and listen to the Confessions album
properly. And it's interesting because
we've since had a bit of disco revival, haven't we?
A few years ago we had like, there was one year, it was like
the COVID year where we had Kylie, Jessie Ware, Rasheem
Murphy. Oh, we don't know if we talked
about that. Dua Lipa, They were all doing
these kind of disco adjacent albums.
Chromatica, shout to Chromatica. The Confessions came out a
couple of decades beyond disco, but it seemed to merge all of
these disco influences with things that felt very
contemporary to the mid 2000s, right?
So what was your journey with that album and falling in love
with Madonna? Well, Maquita, it's been a
journey, but it I think that Confessions was the first album,
full album that I experienced in real time and sorry of Madonna's
and fell in love with. And I remember because I'd known
about obviously Madonna probably ever since I could live in in my
living memory. Frozen and Ray of Light were
very formative for me, but I never really, I knew the
singles, but I knew it's law And that Ray of Light was probably
the first instance of a comeback that I experienced in real time
and it being this celebratory moment for Madonna.
And then you had music, which was fine in an American life,
which we which we've spoken about on this pod, which was
kind of critically or commercially received in the way
that certainly Ray of Light was. And then next came Confessions.
And I remember this is back in the day when there would be ads
for albums on the TV and I, I don't know which newspaper or
magazine or whatever had said it, but the ad was like, it was
the hung up like, And then up on the screen just came these
words. Let's pretend it's the Guardian.
And this quote was believe the hype.
This is as good as Ray of Light. And that just really excited me
because I was like, Oh my God, she's come back again.
She came back before and now she's come back again.
And then I would have asked for the CD for Christmas and just
about it. And I just you, you had to.
And that was also a symptom of the time where you just listened
from something from beginning to end, but you had to listen to it
from beginning to end. And so it was the first sort of
fully realized Madonna product that I just loved so much.
And people were having the same conversation that we're having
now back then. Is she too old?
Is this the last great thing she's going to do?
So it's actually really exciting that we're still having that
conversation. That was that sort of that idea
of it being I loved and I it's a very quick thing and I'm sure we
would have spoken about this in the podcast's original run, but
it the idea of this person coming back time and time again,
but in, in the instance, in the, in the confessions.
Era. Coming back and it being really,
undeniably good was just so satisfying.
Like the fans loved it, sure, but like, it was a universal
acclaim that album received. And that was just so satisfying.
And that is why I think I feel satisfied again now because it's
just something just goes like in my little gay brain just goes
like it it was, it was all worth it.
And yeah, that's just, that's a really, it's a really exciting
place, I think. Yeah, that was my first instance
of Confessions. I just wanted to share actually
some of my favorite social media comments because we both follow
some very intelligent people and some very funny fuckers.
Ross Lohan called this album Confessions 2.
I should clarify a certified tit.
Chopper. An unknown gay called Madonna,
the Deborah Vance of music. I saw that.
Someone else I don't know, but popped into my feed said last
night I wrote to a friend that listening to this record feels
like I'm reconnecting with someone, that I was pre apps,
pre doom scrolling. And that that really hit to hear
you talk about how you came to the first Confessions album.
That album still feels so fresh to me.
But it was over 20 years ago and it was a pre apps, pre doing
schooling life. And that, yeah, this is the
first time that kind of Madonna has shown up in that way for me.
And then my final favorite comment is something that I
shared with you a few weeks ago in our WhatsApp conversation of
violently agreeing with each other.
Someone left this as a comment on the YouTube Confessions
movie, which we haven't even really discussed yet.
That is, it's Cumberbatch, Gwendolyn, Christie, they said
for many people, some some random Assad, for many people,
getting older means gradually letting go of the things that
define you, stepping away from your ambitions, your lifestyle,
your dreams, and eventually accepting a smaller version of
yourself. She has challenged the idea over
and over again, and for that, I'm grateful to her.
She's changed my perception of aging.
Chills. Chills because for years, while
you can say mean things about your siblings or your friends,
but no one else can. That's very much Madonna for me.
I will bat for her if someone else calls her old.
But inside I'm thinking actually, maybe is she a little
bit old? But no.
Time and time again she proves us wrong.
We don't have to reduce our ambitions or our dreams because
of ageing. And I don't know if that's
because of the life stage that we're at right now where we're
in our prime, but we don't want to.
I don't want to not be in a prime.
Life will change, but I don't. Yes, why should I not be in my
prime 20 years from now? Let me slack language plus one
that and ask you something. We were talking earlier about
the fact that this is obviously a very autobiographical piece.
Do you think I'm building on that, that another reason that
it's resonating so much, that it's clicking so much is that
it's I would go beyond it being autobiographical and I would say
it's her thesis. She it's the thesis of her
entire career in I feel so free at the beginning.
She literally says it's one of the first things she says.
Sometimes I like to create a new persona and that is the.
Sometimes. Yeah, regularly in five years
she speaks about throughout the album.
She speaks about the dance floor as community, and she speaks, I
think there are like, four or five songs with the word love in
them. Like, all of it.
Not only does it pick up on these Sonic strands from her
career, but it contains all of the things that she's been
talking about for 40 years wrapped up in into this product.
And I wonder if that might be why it's really holding a punch
as well, because it is the crystallization of everything
that she's stood for and everything she's fought for and
represented not only in her music, but in her visuals and in
her conduct for the past four decades.
Yeah. I'd agree.
I'd agree with all of that. And it's violently violently.
But all of that is wrapped up in fun.
It's also fun. It's a fun album.
In. The last few years she's done a
fair bit of looking back on the Rebel Heart album, there were
songs where she looked they weren't fun, they would let down
her guard. They were dark.
They were they weren't very, they weren't very interesting to
listen to, But this is fun. It's joyful.
And even when love sensation was dropped a couple of weeks ago,
my body was just filled with euphoria.
But I was like, this is this, this could be a little bit of a
throwaway ditty. This isn't really very
substantial. And I was like, I don't fucking
careless, just enjoy it. She's making fun pop music.
This is what people have been asking for forever.
So Speaking of, shall we get into it?
Shall we talk about? Doesn't have to be
chronologically, but it probably makes sense with the way the
album goes. What are like your standouts?
How many would you like me to pick?
Shall we move through it? Because for me the album is, I
see like thirds to this album. I get like from I Feel So Free
through to everything. There's a bit of a vibe and a
storyline and everything kind of ends in a bit of a dark place.
But then we're lifted up through the light to love sensation and
I see a bit of a chapter there through to maybe school, and
then certainly from Fragile onwards the dance party is over
and we've gone more introspective and calm down
South in that first third. What do you reckon?
I think in that first third, I feel so free.
When it first came out, I was like, oh, I love this.
I love the Donna Summer of it. I love the future lovers.
We're talking about Sonic siblings, right?
That is a Sonic sibling with the original confessions for sure.
Forget your. Problems administration.
And I love as a sort of I liked it as AI liked it as a stand
alone, but I love it as the opener.
I love it. Other highlights for me, I've
got a shout out Bring your love with Sabrina Carpenter.
When I first heard it, I was like, what's that thing that's
like scratching my brain? And I wasn't until I listened to
it again as part of the whole piece.
Does it interpolate good life by inner city?
And that is that that kind of 90s that it makes me think of
the not mentioned in that cetera, but it makes me think of
ruin Michelle ruling New York, that kind of untouchable
unknowable for us New York. It just, it really excites.
Me, I didn't realise until she said this in an interview the
other day with one Bob the Drag Queen.
That song is literally about everything we've talked about
with this kind of being forced to work with record label Hot
Young Things of the Minute and think about streaming numbers
and following trends, which to us is the antithesis of Madonna.
Is it for? You.
Is it for them? I know where the bodies are
buried. I have so much more respect for
that song now. And then the final sort of big
hit for me in that first act that you were talking about is
Danceteria. I just it feel I could not stop
smiling when I first listened to it.
And the same goes for every subsequent listen now.
Roger than David Gern leave 52's head lounge 'cause you have so
much to walk on the wild. Side so moving into the second
act, we've talked about love sensation.
I think Love Sensation is her tribute.
She spends a lot of this album talking about people from her
past, her brother, her stepmother, all of the cameos on
Dansateria. But I think Love Sensations
about her current love. I think she's been with a guy
for a few years now. I don't really know too much
about him, but I think that's like a love song for him.
Bizarre is about Sean Penn. Did that click for you?
Did click. That did click for me, Yeah.
And if you listen to bizarre, I think Bizarre and sorry, Sonic
siblings, because there's a kind of it's there's like a there's
that kind of like rhythmic, but there was something in the
lyrics to bizarre that clicked with me.
What did she say? There's something that was so
Sean movie star. With deep blue eyes and
Hollywood were a perfect price. Loved love without words and
that is a real sort of, again, it's that that's one of the big
temp holes of the thesis for me. She's literally it's a love
letter to dance music and the fact that dance music is seen as
this flippant thing sometimes, but it is rooted in truth and
tribal community coming together.
I love love without words and it's one of the stand outs to
me. If not, no, no, it's not my
absolute. Favorite.
No. Allow me to be sincere for a
moment. To the point of nausea I find
fragile. Incredibly moving because it is
about her brother who died a year or so ago.
Yeah, you. Know because when I first heard
it, I was like, oh, this is this sounds.
I don't mean to be flipping. I thought it might be about
people that she might have lost to age.
Yeah, right. It is about a queer man that she
has loved and lost. Yeah, and maybe for Madonna, the
queer man son who literally grew up with her looked very similar.
He was a genuinely brilliant artist in his own right.
We fans owe a lot to him for the Blonde Ambition tour and the
Girly Show tours. He creatively directed those
things and but he also had this relationship with her where they
were like that classic gay man, straight female best friend
relationship as well. And quite sadly, you know, I'm
sure anyone listening to this would know he wrote a book, a
kind of towel book a few years ago on about her.
A bit gross. Yes, I did download an illegal
PDF so I've read it. I didn't give him any money for
it, but I remember it opens with this line where he says I was
born my mother's son, but I will die my sister's brother.
And you've got to have respect for people who growing up and
moving in the world in the shadow of someone like Madonna
would have been hard. So it's I, I found this song
very poignant to hear her sing really beautifully about this
kind of best friend who there was a very rocky, yeah,
challenging relationship with. And then the, I guess the final
part of Act 2 is school, right? That's where you cut the line.
Well, so so I think we skipped school, yeah.
So maybe school was the end. I moved on quickly so going to
school. I love school lol.
School is my favorite song on the album.
School is not only is it's just a banger to listen to, but it
feels so current and I, I don't. Again, I hope it goes without
saying that we are. If you're looking for ageism,
you've you're misinterpreting my verbiage.
I love and I'm blown away that this song was made by a 67 year
old woman. It is cool and heavy.
I think we spoke in our violin agreement WhatsApp chats.
We spoke about the fact that in comparison to Confessions one,
the beats throughout the album are a lot heavier.
It sounds and feels a bit darker.
And I wonder if that might be because it's, I don't know, the
state of the world. But she's also spoken about the
fact that she's made this album because of her feelings about
where we're at globally at the moment.
It just feels like there's more at stake and there is more depth
and perhaps kind of importance and danger to things and
something like school, which is just vicious and Beatty and
intense. It really excited me.
It really excites me. I love that song and it's my
favorite on the album currently. And as you say that, I think
it's really amazing how this album is drenched in nostalgia
and looking back, but still feels so current and
forward-looking. It's kind of, I don't know how
they did it. I don't know how it can be so
layered with all of these references from the past and
specifically intentionally looking back.
But then there's songs like this where you're like, it's so
contemporary and innovative. And look, if she just has to
work with Stuart Price for the rest of her career, so be it.
Because something like him in a room, yeah, let's just stay
there together. We need another one, Stuart.
We need 1/3. My sins are my Saviour.
OK, when I was listening to it, because I think that on Friday
you'd listen to the whole thing already.
And I actually finally enough listen to it in three acts just
because I was like going to work and then on my lunch break and
then whatever when it clicks over into my sins and my
saviour. That was that planted the seed
to me of this is not just a sequel to Confessions because I
felt like I was listening to justify my love or something
from erotica. I kiss you in Paris.
It was just boys and girls kissing, senses hissing.
Sorry about I was vibrating to listen to it.
Thoughts on? Betrayal.
OK, I actually have a weird connection to betrayal.
The concept as well as so it's samples.
Speaking of sampling, it samples this piece of classical music
that I'm not going to try and I'm not going to try and
pronounce. OK, I don't know it from the
original, but are you familiar with Buddha Bar?
Compilation. It's giving hotel costares or
cafe Mambo, yes. Which is a huge part of my
listening ideas and my DNA. So there's a bit of our song
that also samples that kind of classical piece.
And so that immediately made me go all trickily because it
speaks to that late 90s, early 2000s trip hop lounge bar kind
of bedtime stories time as well. So this, again, felt like we
were dipping into other elements of Madonna's back catalog that
we weren't expecting. And that tickled a part of my
brain that I wasn't expecting to be hit with this album.
And I think it's in the third act that Madonna and Stuart
really start to paint up the walls and say, OK, here's the
thing, here's the stuff that you kind of thought was coming.
I'm going to give you that. And we're going to build on it
and make it even better and really push the joy and the
storytelling. But then in this third act,
we're going to go even further and I am really grateful for
that because it's not it that I think pushes it to another level
that Confessions 1 doesn't go. I agree.
So let's move on to which I
think is something which could have been a disaster as you
thought, I think as well the test.
Little star, I tried to put you on a pedestal.
You didn't ask for all the flashing lights.
Little *. We spoke about the fact that
Little Star on Ray of Light, which is about Lordez, is the
penultimate song on the album and it's the same with The Test
and I don't think that's a coincidence.
Agreed, I know that it's been well documented that this was a
come to Jesus moment for the two of them.
I don't quite know what the sort of fractures were in their
relationship before. I can't imagine it's easy having
a mother like Madonna. But it is this really lovely,
simple song that I think seems to meet them both where they're
at, because Lord has had a few songs herself and obviously has
never reached the levels that her mother has.
And I don't think probably wants to.
But I found it such a lovely and authentic collaboration.
And you know what? I struggled to figure out who
was who. Wow.
Really. Yeah, Yeah.
I thought that was a real sweet addition that I wasn't
particularly looking forward to because it could have been
dreadful. And it was.
It was really, it was the opposite.
It's so beautiful. Yeah.
Really special. And then to end look, I get a
bit emotional at this song, LES. It.
Opens up with the kind of background noise of what I
imagine is New York. It's like the buses creaking and
St. noise and bins clattering. And going back to what we said
about how this album is what maybe she wanted the film or TV
show to be, she's beyond anything she's ever referenced
before. She's talking about that young
girl who was a nobody living in like a bedsit and kind of having
this boyfriend who played acoustic guitar or whatever and
was really creative artistically.
But there was a point where she realized that he would limit her
own ambitions, her own bond ambitions.
And she knew she had to get rid to be the person that she went
on to be. And that's a really special song
for me. It's like an acoustic song.
So to end this big dance record with this very introspective,
personal song that again, I think could have been a bit
naff, it could have been a bit corny.
But I think it's the very sincere side of the coin to
something like Dansateria. It's very kind of pure and
honest and Lower East Side, Boy, I wasn't meant for you.
I think it is absolute perfection in how to end an
album like this. I agree and it really it
actually tapped into some early oral fixation law for me.
Do you remember what what we what album we spoke about in
episode 2 of Oral? Fixation.
The Velvet Underground. Yes, that song.
It makes me think of Sunday morning Sunday.
That sort of that come down in New York that trickily like
untenable easing out of the party.
And you know, the read walk on the wild side is referenced or
sampled in that story as well. There are three lines there.
And it really, when I first listened to her, I was like, oh,
it's a bit of a downer to end the album on this, but it makes
perfect sense. And I also wonder if it is this
sort of the ending of her thesis, which is everything
fades away. And I hope that it's not to pick
up on what I asked you at the beginning of this episode.
I hope it's not her kind of swan song, but it felt like perhaps
it might be. I don't know.
And. I think maybe I might be OK if
this is the way to go out high to end on.
She's having so much fun. The other night we saw scenes
from the launch party in London where every queer and hag in
London was at this party with mother's legs blown up.
Allah Jerry Halliwell at the Brits if you will.
And she's dancing on stage while Honey Dijon plays remixes of
early 80s Madonna songs. And she's singing along and
she's having an absolute blast. And I don't care if she can't
dance like she did when she was in her 40s.
I don't care if her voice has changed.
She's having so much fun. She's with her people.
She's surrounded by Stagger Tree.
She looks amazing. Whoever her creative
collaborators are at this point in time, it's working.
As a fan who has made it through the wilderness, somehow we made
it through. I'm just so I just have to enjoy
the now. We might not get something like
this again. And I'm so grateful that she
nearly died a few years ago. She's two years from 70.
We are lucky to be having. This.
So just enjoy it, soak it all up.
A couple of questions from me before we wrap up.
First question was is where is my Kylie collab?
I felt like that was hinted at. I think that'll be like a bonus
kind of milli. Thingy.
Yes, yes, OK. Any we'll have to dust off the
mics for that one we've. Come back.
I've got a question for you, Drew.
What's it like being back on the mic?
Do you miss anything about? Do you miss the technical
difficulties or? Don't miss the Don't miss the
half an hour of trying three different laptops to make this
work. What you can't see, I don't.
I tell you what, I don't miss that.
I don't miss it because I never had it before.
But the video aspect is a whole new dimension to me.
It sure. Is a very complicated system of
weights and pulleys to make me try and look in some way
presentable for an audio visual format.
But it has been. I've got to say this is no
secret that it was one of the great pleasures and honours of
my life to share a microphone so long.
So to get back on the mic and have a discussion about mother
with you has just been the absolute best way I could have
spent my Sunday afternoon. It has been a week of huge
comebacks in queer culture, confessions to this sort of oral
fixation, tracks of our Queers collab.
We don't know what the future holds.
This might not be the last time that your voice is heard in the
Tracks of our Queers feed. So more on that to come back.
Liz, we basically did this for you, so I hope you enjoyed it.
Yeah. Thanks, Liz.
Yeah. Blank based friend.
Send us an e-mail please. Our inbox is DRY.
Don't get to listen to tracks of our quiz, Andy, can you give us
any hints or little tidbits at the upcoming season?
You've always been the first person to listen, first person
to give feedback, and so I'm always hesitant to share with
you hints and guests because I want it to be a surprise for
you. But I'm going to leave you with
two words. Go on.
Bette Midler, you are kidding. Me.
You. You hadn't be punky.
I haven't interviewed Bette Midler, but that's the clue.
Bette Midler is the clue. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. OK, OK.
And that ties us right back to episode one.
Overall fixation. There you go.
And that is our thesis, Drew where?
Can if this is someone who's been listening to you for the
first time, where can folk find more from you?
Welcome, more than welcome to follow my my descent into.
Hysteria. Hysteria.
Despair on Instagram. My Instagram handle is with all
Drew respect, with little full stops in between each one.
Yeah, coming John. I'm I think about four or five
followers away from hitting 1K. So if this is the thing that
ticks me over, that will be it'll be all worth it.
What's your favorite AF episode if you were to share with a new
listener who's like Give me more?
Such a good question. Do you know what I did listen to
the, funnily enough, the Madonna episode that we did with Maxi
Shields after she passed recently.
But I would say yeah, the ABBA episode is an absolute hoot.
I love our Liza Minnelli episode with Trevor Ashley, how about
you? Two in the pink, one in the
stink. That was our last one.
No, my my absolute favorite is Sinead O'Connor in a hijab on
Good Morning Britain is Queer. Yeah, which it is?
It is that's that's a non negotiable.
Where can people find you? You better find me at Tracks of
Our Queers or Andrew, do you think you are?
And yeah, I'm so excited that this has been a pure joy.
No better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.
And do you know what the absolute best thing about all
this is? You don't have to depress
anymore. Thank you to my best friend Drew
for hopping back on the mic. You may hear more from him and
his queer tracks in the future. Who knows?
This episode of oral fixation slash Tracks of Our Queers was
recorded on, well, Rajouri and Larakia Lant.
You can e-mail me at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com and
see you in a few weeks for Season 7.