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Hi, this is Lee, Anne Wong, 
director of design, content and 

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learning here at aiga and 
producer of our podcasts while 

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we're still on a break from 
producing. 

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New content, will continue to 
cross post podcast episodes from

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across the design Community as 
well as some other surprise 

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audio content last month of the 
aiga design conference in 

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Seattle. 
I had the chance to hang out 

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with Sean Schumacher and record 
an episode for his podcast 

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called. 
Did I do that? 

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Did I do that is a conversation.
In style podcast with 

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professionals working in 
graphic, design, talking through

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mistakes that we've made along 
the way how we've struggled at 

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various points in our careers 
and how we've come to overcome 

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those mistakes and even go to 
laugh about them. 

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I certainly had a lot of fun 
recording this episode with 

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Sean. 
You'll get to hear some 

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embarrassing anecdotes for my 
adolescence, some of my story 

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starting a design studio and 
you'll even get to hear my best 

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attempt at a Steve Urkel 
impression. 

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Now here's the surreal World 
episode of did I do Do that. 

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That's like the new Billy 
Eichner movie Bros with his that

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line, you know. 
It's like we had AIDS and they 

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had Glee, we didn't have Glee. 
So we had, we had the real world

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that we could be vampires. 
These are cyborgs and zahl 

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allegory, Hello and welcome to 
did I do that. 

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It's a podcast about making 
graphic design and making 

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mistakes. 
Because it's all part of the 

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process. 
I'm Sean Schumacher and joining 

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me today a very special guest. 
He's the co-founder and creative

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director of fusa, a community 
centered design consultancy. 

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He also hosts and produces 
podcasts and podcast adjacent 

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things for the aaga, where he 
currently serves as the Director

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of design content and learning 
its leash on Wang. 

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Hi, I Xiang. 
It's very easy to remember your 

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name. 
Yes, we've got. 

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We're doing double duty on the 
Sean's and we're same spelling 

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to indeed. 
This is actually not a 

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comfortable. 
That's what I'm learning. 

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Feel free to move to the sofa. 
Or I mean, I don't know if the 

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rolling chair is really the best
out of there, but there's also 

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the dining chairs or can move. 
No, no. 

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This, this should be. 
All right. 

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It's just a little odd. 
It's, it is odd. 

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I think it's, I mean, it's like 
the killed grimace All right P. 

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Grimace, oh, oh, he just wanted 
that Shamrock. 

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Shared a little too early. 
Really have to blame it on 

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Hamburg. 
Not just a thief, but a violent 

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criminal and deeply deranged. 
Yeah, stealing hamburgers is 

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just kind of the gateway drug in
that in that Universe. 

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Yeah, this is a very, very silly
show. 

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So we're here in Seattle, 
Washington. 

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This is part of the AIG a 
National Conference which is 

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happening like next door and 
it's, you know, I'm a big Fraser

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Fran. 
I don't know if you are all so 

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fond of the Fraser program. 
My husband introduced me to it 

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recently but I did not actually 
watch it in the 90s. 

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Oh, so this is that you haven't 
been checking into it in prep 

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for for your visit out here. 
I have not. 

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Oh, well, from where I am 
sitting right now, we're in your

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hotel room. 
I Actually looks like I am in 

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Frasier's apartment right now. 
It's very fancy. 

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There's the full Skyline out 
there although there's a lot 

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more construction cranes than I 
remember in the Fraser program, 

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I believe Fraser was the only 
crane, really depicted 

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primarily? 
Well, no, that's not true. 

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There were several other members
of that family but yeah, you 

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know, in a lot of ways. 
This is a nicer place than 

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Frasier's apartment for one. 
There's no battle chair or 

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angry, dad or dog, that is sort 
of passive aggressive towards. 

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You and like Frasier, I've spun 
out of Boston. 

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Yeah, you did a couple seasons 
in Boston's. 

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Yeah, I've done my time in 
Boston. 

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Yeah, I live in Providence. 
It's I guess it's still kind of 

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within commuting range of 
Boston. 

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I meet Rhode Island is so very, 
very small. 

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It may as well. 
Have been absorbed into one of 

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the adjacent spaces. 
Yeah, but that's the whole 

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thing, right? 
Because it was like it was 

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started by the folks who were 
like, okay. 

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Puritans, let's like tone it 
down just a little bit. 

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Just be like a little bit less 
fundamentalist for a bit. 

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Let's start around state that 
appear Isles. 

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Are not going to be into that. 
They love puritanical things, 

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it's in the name. 
Yeah, so you've sort of popped 

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round between a couple different
locations on the East Coast, New

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York. 
And yeah, well, I'm originally 

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from Taiwan and then my parents 
went to Grad School in Phoenix 

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Arizona. 
So, I grew up in the Phoenix 

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area and then I went to Harvard.
So that's my first stint. 

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Just outside of Boston, your 
cheers years. 

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I'm just going to start by 
dropping the h-bomb instead of 

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talking around. 
It took me. 

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I went to school in Boston. 
Oh, just outside of just gonna 

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cry and across the river. 
Actually, it's a big school. 

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I don't know if you'd know it. 
So yeah, I did that. 

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And then I lived in Japan for 
three years after undergrad. 

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Wow. 
And then moved to New York and 

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was in New York, for most of my 
adult life until covid and then 

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moved out of the city to Long 
Island. 

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Eastern Long Island to escape 
the plague, and hang out with 

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deer and turkeys. 
And when things reopened moved 

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to Boston, where my husband is 
doing his studies up at MIT. 

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Oh, wow, so you've kind of as a 
marriage. 

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Got some very fancy Boston 
Schools in the mix. 

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Yeah. 
And he's also a Harvard man. 

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So it's Harvard and MIT. 
I'm only Harvard and NYU its own

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sort of prestige. 
Age. 

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Yeah, you're in the city, you 
know, in the city. 

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I don't know where NYU is in the
city, but it's somewhere there. 

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It's like in Greenwich Village, 
but it's also in Brooklyn. 

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Now, it's really everywhere. 
I mean, they would take over 

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everywhere if they could 
universities have a way of 

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investing their neighborhoods 
and, you know, slowly creeping 

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out. 
It's a real branding problem as 

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a designer because they're also 
like in Abu Dhabi. 

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That was their first big there's
like spinning out. 

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Can't do in that now. 
Yeah. 

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And so you like have the New 
York branch? 

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But then it's also in Abu Dhabi.
It's like I don't know. 

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I mean it's like not my problem 
as a brand system. 

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Yeah I feel like it is more of a
problem when your school is 

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named after a specific location.
It's hard to make the argument 

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that New York University, Abu 
Dhabi branch makes a lot of 

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sense that they are two 
fundamentally different 

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locations, right? 
It's different from like Parsons

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Paris. 
Parsons New York with different.

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It's a name, but it's not like 
named after the city Parsons 

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could be anywhere it. 
Lives in our hearts primarily 

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right? 
And in parsonage has, which is I

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think where monks live I could 
be wrong about that. 

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Don't write in if you know 
because I will have forgotten 

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that I said it, it is an 
interesting problem. 

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So you grew up primarily in 
Arizona like what sort of turned

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you on to design. 
Initially I would say print shop

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and dot matrix printer has which
is also a way of dating myself. 

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Did you have like an apple too? 
Parents on the computer store 

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actually, oh wow, but they were 
like a sort of PC clone kind of 

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store or as mostly like be to 
be. 

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So they sold to like companies 
and to like school systems and 

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government offices and stuff 
like that, but there was a staff

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around. 
Yeah, we didn't really convert 

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to Mac until my parents were 
tired and then they all got Macs

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and iPhones, and obviously I 
work in design. 

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So I'm also like indentured to 
Apple but I grew up with these 

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sort of like DIY PC. 
Clones where it's like, oh, if 

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you wanted a computer, you can 
have whatever you wanted but you

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have to go to the warehouse and 
like put it together yourself. 

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Oh wow. 
But I mean, I bet you get a lot 

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of extra horsepower out of one 
of those. 

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We always had the latest things 
are actually our very first 

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computer before my parents 
started, the store was a 

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Commodore 64, hmm, where you 
plugged it? 

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Into your TV, at that was such a
special time in Computing. 

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When we just didn't think the 
way that things display was very

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important. 
My very first, Peter was a 

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Commodore Amiga, which I think 
was like, essentially the 

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generation after that. 
It was one Amiga in my school's,

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computer lab and it was like the
special computer that had like, 

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a color monitor. 
Oh yeah. 

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It wasn't just like green and 
black. 

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And I just remember like there 
was all sorts of like demos on 

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that and it was like the 
equivalent of Photoshop. 

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I don't even remember the name 
of this Earth where they had 

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like a demo image. 
That was like a pharaoh like a 

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oh yeah. 
Chaparro. 

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And I was like, wow. 
The colors are like so. 

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Vibrant and realistic. 
Yeah, and that was the whole big

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thing with the Amiga is like at 
least early. 

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Digital broadcast Graphics were 
almost always sort of a piece of

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software in a peripheral 
attached to an Amiga because the

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Amiga was like fancy for 
graphics. 

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You have to call those like 
toasters, right? 

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Yeah. 
Well Video Toaster, yeah. 

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Oh toast some video I Don't Mind
If I Do. 

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Is this podcast really going to?
It's going to turn this like old

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guys. 
Top Tech. 

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That's what the kids love, you 
know. 

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They love the past and how wacky
it was. 

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It's why everything from 1998 is
popular again. 

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Yeah, I was explaining last 
semester. 

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I was somehow got into some 
conversation explaining how VHS 

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tapes work, you have to like, 
edit with two VHS, decks to like

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so like to a grad students it 
wasn't even like a kid. 

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Yeah. 
Somebody in their 20s early, 

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early mid 20s who's like a photo
and video guy and he was just 

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like shocked as like. 
How did you guys make anything? 

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Well yeah, it's Kind of 
astonishing, how how linear 

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everything used to be? 
Like, before we started 

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recording, I was telling you 
about, like, my dad, when he was

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doing audio production back in 
the day, he would literally cut 

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and taped together tape, right? 
Like, the fanciest stuff was 

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that, and it's effort to, 
because it's not to make a mix 

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tape for someone. 
You had to, like, listen to the 

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radio. 
Make sure that the DJ didn't 

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talk over the intro of the song.
Good Luck record, right? 

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And put that together and I 
guess it's still an active love 

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to like burn. 
Number CD or something like 

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that. 
Like that's still some effort 

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versus like I made you a 
playlist on Spotify. 

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Yeah, that impose that's 
disappointing like the object. 

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Miss is very special there like 
you lose that you lose a lot you

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know? 
And you can like doodle on the 

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little sticker that you put on 
the cassette tape. 

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Yeah. 
And personalize it that way I 

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guess you could put a lot of 
love into like the printed out 

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card with the QR code on it that
you if you want to go out here. 

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There's a little heart. 
In the middle. 

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I hope that didn't affect. 
Oh, it did. 

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Okay, so now you can't scan it. 
Whoops. 

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Well, you think the message is 
what counts, it's funny. 

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How much things change it? 
So where were you using, like, 

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print shop Pro and all that? 
Like I said home and at school, 

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I think there was something just
really great about, like, the 

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sound of it. 
Oh, and you would like, I think 

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that's something I miss about 
those dot matrix printers 

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because it had like all the 
sheets of paper were connected 

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with a kind of perforations. 
You could just like her. 

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Out like big old banners and 
then stick them on the wall. 

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The Banners at that was the big 
selling feature of print shop 

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Pro, wasn't it? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, no, they came birthday 
banners. 

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Are you could just like make 
anything really welcome home. 

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Dad, dad went on a business trip
or something. 

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I just like, things like that. 
Yeah. 

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Which I don't think we have an 
equivalent to that know, like 

226
00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:48,100
you'd have to go too fast signs 
and I'm sure they'd charge you 

227
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,900
90 bucks or something, right? 
Or like, it's not the same to 

228
00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:57,200
just like, geez, sheets of eight
and a half by 11, It was a 

229
00:11:57,208 --> 00:12:00,100
speaker at this conference 
Libby, roast Regal from the 

230
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:03,900
first day who I got to introduce
and then interview. 

231
00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:09,100
And she runs this like Museum 
basically at the University of 

232
00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:13,500
Colorado Boulder which is like 
full of obsolete Tak, like 

233
00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,600
another one laptop per child and
apple to ease and all sorts of 

234
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,700
things and it's Unique because 
it's open to people like you can

235
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:23,100
actually like play with the 
computers and touch them and do 

236
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,700
stuff rather than just like 
seeing them and display cases. 

237
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,600
Like I saw at the design Museum 
and I was in London last month 

238
00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:33,000
it's still surreal to see your 
childhood like objects in the 

239
00:12:33,008 --> 00:12:36,900
museum roof, roof. 
But anyway, like Libby's, what I

240
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:39,800
was talking to Libby about and 
our Q&A afterwards was like not 

241
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,300
just the obsolete hardware and 
software, but these behaviors 

242
00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:48,100
that have become like, obsolete,
or retro or even sounds. 

243
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,600
Yeah. 
Sound of a modem or the sound of

244
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,000
a dot matrix M. 
And these things that are just 

245
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,600
kind of like endangered in our 
2022. 

246
00:12:55,700 --> 00:13:00,500
Well yes, I think I maybe maybe 
it was Libby but I seem to 

247
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,700
remember there was some sort of 
institution that was trying to 

248
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,400
collect, you know, examples of 
those sounds to preserve them 

249
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,500
because especially like a modem,
like I'll never be able to dial 

250
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:12,000
in to AOL. 
Again it felt like our family 

251
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,600
really made it in the world like
it's like, oh we got a second 

252
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,000
line. 
So you know if you would like 

253
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,400
logged in using the modem to get
onto like prodigy or America 

254
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,200
online like somebody could 
actually Receive a call or 

255
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,800
receive a fax. 
Did you get online? 

256
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,000
Pretty early, considering you? 
You had all that Hardware? 

257
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,200
Yeah, we got online pretty early
like my parents because they 

258
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,100
were small business owners, 
working hard, all the time like 

259
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:43,900
they had a babysitter. 
So we weren't totally like, you 

260
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:47,400
know, latchkey kids or anything 
like that but it was pretty like

261
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,600
hands off of like here are some 
books and here's some technology

262
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,800
and like, you know, don't kill 
yourself. 

263
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,700
I'm like I did well in school. 
Also, it was like pretty like 

264
00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:00,100
hands off that can be a gift and
a curse. 

265
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:05,100
Both both at once when was that 
and what was your first service 

266
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:07,400
that you were on? 
Was it like AOL or must have 

267
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,400
been like early 90s? 
I think I might've been Prodigy 

268
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,000
and then I think we were on 
CompuServe for a hot minute but 

269
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,900
that one wasn't super 
user-friendly AOL. 

270
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,900
I think that was like it was 
like the ascendancy of AOL and 

271
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:26,500
was like, ooh like a user 
interface Yeah. 

272
00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:29,100
Yeah, it will it will really 
took over for a minute. 

273
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,500
Like it's so hard to forget 
like, when AOL keywords were the

274
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:35,700
thing that everyone had in their
ads and they mailed out those 

275
00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:38,200
installation discs, right? 
Yeah, basically, like giving 

276
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,900
away the installation discs and 
then it's like, okay, 500 free 

277
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:43,900
hours. 
How can I say? 

278
00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:47,100
No yeah why not? 
And then there's that like 

279
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:50,300
triangle logo. 
Yeah, all sorts of like 

280
00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:53,200
conspiracy theories, right? 
It's like the pure made on the 

281
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,600
one dollar bill, right? 
It's like some sort of me Sonic.

282
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,700
Eric Claude or whatever it is, 
reminder, these there's 

283
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:03,600
conspiracy theories about the 
AOL logo being like some sort 

284
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,100
of, like, Illuminati stuffers. 
I feel like Suburban Phoenix in 

285
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:10,700
the 80s and 90s were a kind of a
paranoid time and place. 

286
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:22,800
I think it's still a current 
urban legends about like people 

287
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,800
putting drugs in your kids and 
he's, which is Also thing that's

288
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,500
still happening today, but I 
feel like that sort of like, 

289
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,700
satanic Panic stuff is 
happening. 

290
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:35,000
That's like the cultural myth of
the how it grew up, like 

291
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,400
Stepford Wives Suburbia. 
But like, with like a 

292
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,600
tumbleweed, you know, because 
it's still like at the edge of 

293
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,200
the desert and then, like, the 
digital Dimension. 

294
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:45,000
Oh yeah. 
And it's so many things fell 

295
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,300
into that. 
That like, I remember being 

296
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:50,600
afraid of the idea of Dungeons 
and Dragons when I was a kid 

297
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,700
because that was like the most 
satanic thing out there and to I

298
00:15:55,708 --> 00:15:59,800
think of that today yeah knowing
what it is that's why it was 

299
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,300
like such a great like blast to 
the past with the latest 

300
00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:05,500
stranger things. 
Oh yeah yeah. 

301
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:08,400
Right I've just had a few 
friends like come out to me as I

302
00:16:08,408 --> 00:16:10,000
go. 
Yeah I'm a dungeon master like 

303
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,600
not in the DSM way but in the 
dungeons dragons where it's 

304
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,000
like, oh I got into being a 
dungeon master during the 

305
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,100
pandemic, like you're framing of
it. 

306
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,200
As coming out, it's a core part 
of their identity was a real 

307
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,400
like ascendancy of. 
Nerds, I stay alight, true. 

308
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,500
I mean that's the difference. 
I think between growing up in 

309
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:32,500
the 80s and 90s and clearly 
being a nerd where you were 

310
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:36,000
still kind of like marginalized.
Yeah, yeah. 

311
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,600
I was even thinking about like I
had to be like 2006 or something

312
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,500
like that when TV was obsessed 
with the idea of the nerd which 

313
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:47,000
I think the timing makes sense 
because I'm pretty sure that's 

314
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,700
around when Big Bang Theory 
started but like this idea all 

315
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:53,700
the nerd is actually great. 
We actually love the nerd. 

316
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:57,900
But you know, like 90% of the 
time it was about making fun of 

317
00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,000
right or Goonies. 
Yeah sort of thing Revenge of 

318
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,800
the Nerds but I mean your 
podcast is like clearly a no Maj

319
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,300
to Steve Urkel, right? 
It did. 

320
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:11,400
I think that's what it's really 
Deschanel doing. 

321
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,599
Steve Urkel, it's like very 
much. 

322
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:15,800
I mean, it's essentially a 
scheme by which I can get many 

323
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,599
professional designers takes on 
a Steve Urkel impression and 

324
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,300
then I'll compile them all 
together and put out a mixtape 

325
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:23,900
of. 
Yeah. 

326
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:25,900
Or Tick Tock? 
That's I think that's what Kids 

327
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:29,800
are doing these days. 
I'll be I'll be racking up the 

328
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,900
views that that right, kids 
definitely know who Steve Urkel 

329
00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:35,400
is. 
I could just imagine like the, 

330
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,200
the sort of like, Chinese agent,
you know, at the data far, what 

331
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,300
is happening and what is 
happening in America, I don't, 

332
00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:49,600
what, how do we weaponize this 
could this be beneficial to us 

333
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,100
in any way? 
No, let's just give up. 

334
00:17:54,600 --> 00:18:01,300
Yeah, Where did you start to get
into design? 

335
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,200
Kind of more generally. 
Like, I was like making stuff 

336
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,000
with computers. 
Yeah, and also growing up in the

337
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,900
80s and 90s in Phoenix. 
This is actually one cool thing 

338
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:13,600
despite growing up a new like a 
super Republican state was that 

339
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,800
there's still the tail end of 
like a lot of good public 

340
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,400
investment in education for 
kids. 

341
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,100
And so the public university 
near us were like my whole 

342
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:25,500
family went, they had these 
programs. 

343
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:29,400
Orchids and you could go and 
they would teach you like 

344
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,200
programming. 
So we learned like wow Lego logo

345
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,600
which was like an early form of 
basically you could like make 

346
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,600
animations using Code. 
Yeah. 

347
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,100
It was that the little turtle 
that. 

348
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,500
Yeah. 
So logo was like the turtle that

349
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:44,000
you can move around and draw 
stuff and then Lego logo was 

350
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,800
like a spin-off of that. 
We could also like plug-in and 

351
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,300
do basically what's called 
physical Computing today. 

352
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:53,700
So like you could control 
Electronics, like wow, gears and

353
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:55,500
things like that, I didn't even 
know that existed. 

354
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:56,900
I stood back then. 
Yeah. 

355
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,400
It was like very like ahead of 
its time. 

356
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,600
Yeah. 
And so that was like available 

357
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,400
at the public university for. 
I don't know. 

358
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,400
I've no idea how much it costs 
but it's like low cost for kids.

359
00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:10,400
And then we also like as we got 
older that same program, which 

360
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,900
is called CAP, I don't think it 
exists anymore was the center 

361
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:16,900
for academic precocity sort of a
spin-off for like it was sort of

362
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:22,000
like like the gifted kids 
program, but it happened on like

363
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,500
nights and weekends and over the
summer precocity. 

364
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:28,200
Hassan dies. 
The goal to get everyone in the 

365
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,700
program beat up because that's 
the only reason that word. 

366
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,100
I'm still like in touch online 
with some like, alumni of that 

367
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,100
program. 
And we were like, you know, a 

368
00:19:41,108 --> 00:19:43,300
lot of us ended up in Creative 
Industries. 

369
00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:46,000
And we're like relatively well, 
adjusted or like, you know, our 

370
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,500
meds work enough, that keep 
balanced. 

371
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:53,500
But we also learned that there 
was a class where we got to 

372
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,700
learn how to use a TV studio. 
The university has like the 

373
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,400
Walter Cronkite School of 
Journalism so they had to blow 

374
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,500
fully functioning TV studio but 
they let these Junior High kids 

375
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:05,300
like run for a few weeks while 
summertime that's a terrible 

376
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,200
mistake. 
But yeah we good opportunity 

377
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,000
videos. 
So we think this is like seventh

378
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,600
or eighth grade summer. 
We made like a student film 

379
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,900
called The Surreal World which 
was the spoof of the real world.

380
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,000
The MTV show. 
That's a now celebrated like 30 

381
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,600
years or whatever. 
Yeah. 

382
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,500
And it was something surreal 
happened on the set. 

383
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,800
Where Rachel Campos Rachel 
Campos, who was like from the 

384
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,600
San Francisco Season showed up 
on set, and we had no idea and 

385
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,000
she didn't know that you are 
doing a spoof of the show, but 

386
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,600
she was like the friend of 
somebody's older brother who was

387
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,700
visiting. 
And so we interviewed her in 

388
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,900
character and the mister real 
world was like, you know, one 

389
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:50,300
roommate was a vampire. 
One roommate was like a weird. 

390
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:52,400
I was like, a weird hippie 
person. 

391
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,900
One roommate was a cyborg. 
So these kids, I I have the 

392
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,300
footage somewhere. 
Like digitized, I would love to 

393
00:20:58,300 --> 00:20:59,900
see that. 
Can you, can you give us a 

394
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,800
little take on your on your 
weird hippie character? 

395
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,600
Can you Channel them for me? 
What was their name? 

396
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,700
I don't remember my character's 
name. 

397
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:13,600
I definitely have like a crunchy
granola part of myself still but

398
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,600
I just really feel like these 
vibrations are you doing? 

399
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:22,800
It's not really vibing with me 
and I feel like my plants are 

400
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:29,900
sad. 
And half of Seattle, just let 

401
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:35,400
out a cry and we like 13 14, you
know. 

402
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,000
We weren't even like stoned, 
ready. 

403
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,800
You just you have the inherent 
Stone - of 14 year olds where 

404
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,000
everything just seems possible 
no matter how little sense it 

405
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,700
makes right. 
And, you know, not surprisingly,

406
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:54,200
a lot of us turned out to be 
queer and, you know, that was a 

407
00:21:54,208 --> 00:21:55,300
bit. 
So I think it's like, you know, 

408
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:59,200
like Hippie or vampire was like,
you know, this is the early 90s.

409
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,000
So, you know, I mean, I guess 
Anne Rice had already done her 

410
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,200
thing with Interview with the 
Vampire, but it was like, you 

411
00:22:04,208 --> 00:22:07,000
know, you had to use like 
metaphor and allegory. 

412
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,400
Yes, it's not like gen Z or 
younger Millennials where they 

413
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,600
had like Glee. 
Right. 

414
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,900
That's like the new Billy 
Eichner, movie Bros. 

415
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,400
With is that line, you know? 
It's like we had AIDS and they 

416
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,400
had Glee. 
We didn't have pleased that we 

417
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,000
had. 
We had the real world that we 

418
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,400
could be vampire, hippies are 
cyborgs and Zahl allegory. 

419
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:35,900
Makes perfect sense. 
Yes. 

420
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,100
All right, I bet that broke me 
and I'm not sure why. 

421
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:59,600
So, you're messing around at 
this University campus. 

422
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,000
Like, what, where do you go from
there? 

423
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,500
I was also interested in music. 
So having two computers at home,

424
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:09,200
I was also making music on 
computers, like programming, 

425
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,700
like, midi synthesizers and 
like, making beats and all of 

426
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,200
that sort of thing. 
And I also grew up playing, 

427
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,300
like, piano and stuff. 
So kind of fast forward to later

428
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,600
by like college Yura and post 
College. 

429
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,700
In my early 20s, I like various 
This band and musical projects, 

430
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:29,600
I was involved in. 
And that's when I got more into 

431
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,800
graphic design like how we have 
to make our own stickers out, 

432
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,700
flyers and album covers, and all
of those sort of thing. 

433
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:40,400
But like truly essentially the 
utilitarian path where it's like

434
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,400
I want to do this other thing 
but if I learn design then it 

435
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,300
can serve that need right. 
Yeah. 

436
00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:51,000
I don't think design was really 
like my primary kind of interest

437
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000
at that time. 
It was more like, okay into 

438
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,900
music stuff and it's making like
Weird movies on VHS tapes. 

439
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,700
And so it's like, okay, if you 
want like a title sequence, 

440
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:01,700
you're going to have to make 
that or you're going to have to 

441
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,400
make your album cover so you can
burn some CDs and try to sell 

442
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,200
those. 
I mean what sort of Music were 

443
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,100
you playing other than I mean it
sounds like you're playing 

444
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:12,300
around with like Electronics 
doing some like electronic 

445
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:14,300
music. 
I was also in like a band that 

446
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:18,500
was kind of like heavily 
influenced by like britpop or 

447
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,700
Bjork. 
I mean the 90s were a great era 

448
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,900
for music and now it's turned 
into like open to talking about 

449
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,100
Music after like, old people 
talking about tech, we haven't 

450
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:32,400
transitioned to old people 
yelling at cloud and I think 

451
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200
that's where that all falls 
apart. 

452
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,200
And since we're in Seattle, you 
know, I will also shout out like

453
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,300
the whole grunge see and like, I
was listening to Nirvana and 

454
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,600
Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and 
all that sort of stuff back then

455
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,200
site pretty. 
Eclectic tastes and so Random 

456
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,800
bands I've been in, like it. 
When I lived in Japan, I played 

457
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,600
in a cover band, with these two 
Japanese girls, who did like Ani

458
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,800
DiFranco, Oh and cranberries 
covers, oh really? 

459
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,400
And they like they sing in 
perfect English and then they 

460
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,600
would like afterwards or 
backstage to be like I don't 

461
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:09,100
English no good you know, stop 
it and then also played in like 

462
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:13,800
a salsa band in Japan because 
there was this Mexican guy who 

463
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,700
owned a bar in our town where I 
was I was an English teacher as 

464
00:25:17,708 --> 00:25:20,800
my day job in Japan after right 
after college. 

465
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,400
So I did that for a little bit. 
What made you want to do that? 

466
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,700
Like That's a big transition. 
Yeah, I originally wanted to be 

467
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:32,000
like a film major. 
Yeah, I started freshman year at

468
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,800
Arizona State, but then I 
transferred to Harvard and an 

469
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,700
Arizona State, you could being a
film major, really meant like a 

470
00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:40,800
film of studies Majors. 
You could watch movies and like 

471
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,100
right about them but there 
really wasn't much of a 

472
00:25:43,108 --> 00:25:47,300
production program, but then I 
was also, like, just interested 

473
00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:51,400
in political stuff and so when I
went to Harvard, I ended up 

474
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,500
being a political science major,
I thought, oh, I could maybe be 

475
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:57,600
a Or something, a pretty nice 
word. 

476
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,500
Yeah, especially being Taiwanese
Taiwanese American but like 

477
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,900
being from a country. 
That's not really recognized as 

478
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,500
a country by a lot of other 
countries. 

479
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:09,200
And and all of that is psycho. 
Could I do something like that? 

480
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,600
Yeah. 
And so I was also like learning 

481
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,000
languages, like foreign 
languages in college and before 

482
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,200
that. 
And so I was like, oh, I took 

483
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,100
Japanese, why don't I go to 
Japan? 

484
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:22,300
And, like, improve my Japanese 
and there was a Japanese 

485
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:24,800
government program. 
That's called the jet program. 

486
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,300
Um, Japan exchange and teaching.
Oh, yes, I've heard of that. 

487
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:30,400
Yeah, yeah. 
So I applied but I was actually 

488
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,400
waitlisted. 
And since this was an early 

489
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,100
2000s by the time I was out of 
college, I don't know if they 

490
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,200
even emailed or had her email 
addresses then, but I had 

491
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,800
graduated from Harvard and my 
parents like came to my 

492
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,400
graduation and then we did like 
a family road trip for like a 

493
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,800
week or oh, the East Coast 
before, we went back to Arizona 

494
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,500
and I didn't have a job and have
anything. 

495
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,800
And when we got back to my 
parents house, there was a mess.

496
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,900
Sage on my parents answering 
machine. 

497
00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,900
Saying, if you want to go to 
Japan, like call the Embassy 

498
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:04,200
now, because we have a space for
you, which is great because I 

499
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,000
like, I could be employed. 
And so, few months later, I was 

500
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200
on a plane to Tokyo. 
And then, to my small town in 

501
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,000
the south of Japan, where I 
taught English by day and then 

502
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,400
played music at night and did 
some freelance writing as well 

503
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,200
about like, Japanese culture and
food and stuff like that. 

504
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,200
Wow. 
Have you done any like freelance

505
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,600
writing before that? 
Or was that kind of The Genesis 

506
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,800
of that, I was like, worked on 
the student paper in junior 

507
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,200
high. 
And then in high school, the 

508
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,700
Arizona Republic, which is like 
the newspaper of record in 

509
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,600
Arizona, this isn't a big deal 
like, yeah, they had a like, a 

510
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,100
teen page. 
And they would basically, like 

511
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:45,700
recruit teenagers like high 
school kids to like, write 

512
00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:50,000
articles and like so I was like 
a music reviewer for the Arizona

513
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,900
Republic, like a teen music 
reviewer. 

514
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:54,900
And they would just like to give
you CDs or give you concert. 

515
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,500
A new like what makes them and 
write for that. 

516
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:59,900
So that was kind of cool so that
was also another potential 

517
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,400
things like okay major in 
political science and then maybe

518
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,600
be like a journalist, it was 
still like kind of 

519
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,400
communications or connecting 
with people in different ways 

520
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,600
but I still kind of figuring it 
out. 

521
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,000
Yeah. 
I mean you had a teen dream job 

522
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,300
demands like totally free music 
to do is write about how cool it

523
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:18,500
is. 
This is bat before, like the 

524
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:22,300
collapse of Journalism as a 
business model and music and 

525
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,300
music and all of those things. 
I mean we we grew up having the 

526
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,600
paper like the actual newspaper 
every morning. 

527
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,400
Yeah. 
Which I you know like it's so 

528
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,900
rare that you even see them 
around now, so you're you're in 

529
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:38,800
Japan. 
Now, where do you go from there?

530
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,900
Like what's your next step? 
So I do the Japan thing for 

531
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:45,400
three years which is great. 
This is around the time that 

532
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,600
Facebook launched has ever heard
of it. 

533
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,500
Yeah, I didn't know Zuckerberg 
or any of those guys. 

534
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:53,900
There are a couple of years 
younger than me at Harvard but 

535
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:56,600
they launched it. 
Like the year after I graduate. 

536
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,900
So at first, it's like only 
Harvard students and alumni. 

537
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:03,800
So I was like, I'm like user, my
Facebook user numbers like in 

538
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,300
the hundred. 
So I'm well, within the first 

539
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:11,000
like couple thousand people who 
joined Facebook, that's wild, 

540
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,900
but I was also on like Myspace 
and and all that sort of stuff. 

541
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,600
I don't know what the point of 
this was based on this show, 

542
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,800
don't have to have a point. 
I think it's just like this. 

543
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,500
Social media angle, right? 
I think is became like another 

544
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:31,700
canvas for making stuff so like 
learning some CSS. 

545
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:36,000
So you could like freak out your
Myspace page at was a lot of 

546
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,300
people's entryway and to web 
design. 

547
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:42,300
Yes, I feel like I need there to
be a horrible song. 

548
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,200
That plays every time you visit 
your Myspace page, right? 

549
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,600
Or like how do I do that? 
Yeah looking for like weird 

550
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,500
gifts and things like that make 
it as unreadable as possible. 

551
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:54,500
Yeah, there's really like a 
golden age. 

552
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,200
Out west of social media, and 
the internet, or like Geo 

553
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,900
cities. 
Right? 

554
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:02,700
I feel like there was a real 
sort of like weirdness to it. 

555
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,700
All ya, folks were still 
figuring out the medium and it 

556
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:08,800
was very experimental and 
obviously accessibility did not 

557
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,500
matter know yet. 
I think a lot of those websites 

558
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,800
were more accessible than 
current websites and runaways 

559
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,200
and then there was also like 
that flash era which I learned a

560
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,700
lot of people have passion for 
that so I shouldn't say it but I

561
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,700
I mean, I started in web design 
right at the tail end of The 

562
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,900
Flash era and a lot of that 
design era was sort of reacting 

563
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:36,300
to how broke. 
I guess, some of those websites 

564
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:39,700
had gotten buttons all we you 
don't need to know where those 

565
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:40,400
are. 
Yeah. 

566
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,300
Just maybe it's helpful to kind 
of connect the dots on my life 

567
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:48,000
and career and we'll come back 
to flash is basically so after 

568
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,300
Japan, I land in New York City 
because I didn't want to go back

569
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:56,200
to Arizona and this is 2006. 
So this is For the financial 

570
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,100
crisis are so it was still a lot
of tech money and stuff floating

571
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,400
around. 
I ended up getting a job off of 

572
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,700
Craigslist, basically doing like
campaigns and content for like a

573
00:31:06,708 --> 00:31:08,600
non-profit. 
As a worked at a couple 

574
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,700
different nonprofits in New York
City doing like essentially like

575
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:15,800
email marketing stuff and like 
you know, graphics for stuff 

576
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,200
like that and trying to combine 
my like political science degree

577
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,600
into that. 
Yeah, it works for like a human 

578
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,100
rights organization for a year. 
And then after that I was like, 

579
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:27,000
okay, I don't Necessarily want 
to be a diplomat because I was a

580
00:31:27,008 --> 00:31:29,600
little too buttoned up and it 
was a little too artsy for that 

581
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,400
but I like the comms and the 
design aspect of that. 

582
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,800
So I went to NYU for grad school
at this interdisciplinary. 

583
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:39,400
Master's program called ITP the 
interactive telecommunications 

584
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,600
program, which was like spun out
of the film school back in the 

585
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,500
late 70s, when video was like 
The Innovation from its since 

586
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,900
like been basically about like 
the recently possible. 

587
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:53,900
So when I was there in like 08 
to 2010, when I graduated it was

588
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:57,900
kind of like Some creative 
coding stuff and I learned 

589
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:02,100
flash, you know, and like after 
grafting script every this will 

590
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,200
never get old. 
And I like, I mean, I knew it 

591
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,700
enough to actually teach a flash
class at the College of Staten 

592
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,300
Island. 
And now I couldn't like write a 

593
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:13,300
line of action script to save my
life. 

594
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:17,200
No, no idea how anybody made 
anything. 

595
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,600
Yeah, it's not like riding a 
bicycle. 

596
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,800
You can't just hop right on and 
make yourself a Homestar Runner.

597
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,200
Cartoon it. 
Yeah. 

598
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,600
I mean, looking back, you know, 
given my background with my 

599
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,300
parents running, the computer 
store in all of that. 

600
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,400
I should have just learned like 
Fortran or something, like, for 

601
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:35,700
Fortran or like, COBOL or 
whatever, they could have made a

602
00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:38,800
fortune, like, remember during 
the pandemic, when, like New 

603
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,300
Jersey or a few other states 
were like, oh yeah, we need 

604
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:44,400
Fortran and COBOL. 
Yeah, for those of you who don't

605
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,300
know, those are ancient 
programming language. 

606
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:50,800
It's like, it's like even book 
or by from the 50s, right? 

607
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,200
Yeah, I mean they were literally
for programming Mainframe 

608
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:54,700
computer. 
Yeah. 

609
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800
And so much of our 
infrastructure in the United 

610
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,300
States, is so out of date, like 
the IRS is still using COBOL 

611
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,000
extensively, right? 
Or a friend of mine, is like, a 

612
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,400
pro was a product manager at 
Ticketmaster. 

613
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,900
And I think Ticketmaster only 
switched over off of those 

614
00:33:10,900 --> 00:33:13,500
mainframes like a few years ago,
it was like a relatively recent 

615
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:15,800
thing. 
Well, I'm glad that they finally

616
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,100
decided to start investing their
fees and something beneficial. 

617
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,000
Right? 
What were they doing with them 

618
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,500
before? 
Just throwing them into a 

619
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:24,500
Scrooge? 
McDuck Vault and swimming around

620
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:28,500
it. 
I mean, I don't think the 

621
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:33,200
artists were seeing - no, no, I 
mean, you know, when you're the 

622
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600
Ticketmaster, then you're in 
charge of the ticket, right? 

623
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,600
So, I mean, it was like, the 90s
you had the webmaster and then 

624
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,000
there was like the ticket. 
Yeah, and there's like multiple 

625
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,700
webmasters, right? 
But only one Ticketmaster I 

626
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,700
Delight in sometimes seeing that
on LinkedIn profiles. 

627
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:53,000
People who were properly 
webmasters than the 90s. 

628
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,700
It's such a weird era. 
I wasn't webmaster well into the

629
00:33:56,700 --> 00:34:00,600
2000s because when I moved back 
to the States from Japan, I got 

630
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,600
involved in the Alumni 
Association for the jet program,

631
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,700
and there's a pretty like title 
of my community because it's 

632
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:10,199
were sponsored by the Japanese 
government, but we're also like 

633
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:14,300
our own independent chapters and
we try to Foster like cultural 

634
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:17,300
understanding between like the 
u.s. and Japan or whatever 

635
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:20,100
country that you attended the 
jet program from in Japan. 

636
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:22,600
When I first moved to New York, 
that was like one of the first 

637
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,100
communities I got involved in 
with Jet. 

638
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:26,900
And so, they roped me in like, 
they knew. 

639
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:30,500
I knew some enough web stuff and
like you are webmasters. 

640
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:34,600
I was, I was webmaster for like,
over a decade and we are handing

641
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,600
you the special sacred laid? 
Yeah. 

642
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,699
Decade like way after it was 
like a thing. 

643
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:46,900
You're kind of getting into the 
design game in New York. 

644
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:49,699
You're bouncing around between 
different nonprofits. 

645
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:51,900
What sort of is your trajectory 
from there? 

646
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,800
When I went back to school I 
actually was At Human Rights 

647
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,700
Watch part-time until like 
money, dried up. 

648
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,800
I think like, I think Bernie 
Madoff was one of their big 

649
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,700
donors or or something like 
that, or they had invent, I 

650
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,800
don't know. 
Like, do you know, don't quote 

651
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,700
me on that one, but a lot of 
their funders and donors were 

652
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:12,400
like involved in finance somehow
whether or not directly with 

653
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,200
Bernie Madoff or, you know, 
whatever. 

654
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,000
So there was like no longer any 
funding for my part-time 

655
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,300
position. 
While I was in school and I was 

656
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:21,500
like, hmmm, just maybe just 
focus on being in grad school 

657
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:24,100
for a while and then after a 
while, it's like, okay, really 

658
00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:26,400
have to Work to live in New York
City. 

659
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,400
And so ended up reconnecting 
with somebody had worked with 

660
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,200
before who's starting a creative
agency. 

661
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,900
So my second year of grad 
school, I landed at an agency 

662
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:38,700
called purpose. 
They're still around, but there 

663
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:42,500
are like owned by a larger 
conglomerate now and was like, 

664
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,400
the first designer. 
I was like the intern but also 

665
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,700
the only in-house designer who 
in a five-person company. 

666
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:53,200
It was like a to Ikea table 
company at the time now. 

667
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,800
They're like legit have like, 
Alfred Avenue office and Oberman

668
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,300
Miller tables. 
Yeah, there's yeah, Aeron 

669
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:00,700
chairs. 
I think we really made it when 

670
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:03,500
we have like Aeron chairs, 
although it was like, in a 

671
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,300
former chinatown's Sweatshop to 
be honest. 

672
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,000
Good. 
That was like, huge rate, 

673
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,200
energy, huge but only one 
bathroom. 

674
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:13,200
So yeah, worked at purpose for a
while. 

675
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,800
Actually it like had some great 
opportunities that they were 

676
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,700
expanding rapidly, working with 
nonprofits, but also companies 

677
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:22,500
on like social initiatives. 
So, I've got to work like an 

678
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:25,300
India for like a week. 
That's a good. 

679
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:28,500
A Germany, all over Europe 
helps, open up the Brazil 

680
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:30,400
office. 
So if the Rio for like six 

681
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,400
months, wow, well, that's 
learning something in 

682
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,800
Portuguese. 
Yeah, so did some of that, what 

683
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,400
was it like going from being the
only designer? 

684
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,000
And I imagine having quite a 
workload to like, managing 

685
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,700
people. 
And yeah, I mean, I was more 

686
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:48,200
involved in like the recruitment
because there was just like, 

687
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,800
like trying to hire designers 
but also tech people. 

688
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,300
Yeah. 
And that was like not something.

689
00:36:53,300 --> 00:36:56,600
I had any background in was just
like, But I was like kind of a 

690
00:36:56,900 --> 00:37:00,300
like social butterfly in a way 
and also like knew how to post 

691
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,400
on lists and things like that. 
So they trusted me with that and

692
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,000
yeah it was kind of a weird like
identity crisis to because there

693
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,500
was it was an agency run by a 
lot of X McKinsey folks. 

694
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:15,000
So is it started out as like 
strategy and communication 

695
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600
strategy and then like branched 
out to its own like creative 

696
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,500
department. 
So brought on some folks don't 

697
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:25,100
like I was like still in school 
and so I graduated and they gave

698
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:27,800
me a full-time position, but I 
also got to learn more about 

699
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,600
like the strategy side on the 
dealing with client side. 

700
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,500
It was so small for the first 
couple years that like everybody

701
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,600
did a little bit of everything, 
but then I think I was being 

702
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,600
pulled more and more away from 
the design and the creative side

703
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,600
to be like, oh, do you want to 
be a middle manager? 

704
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:47,800
No, but I'd rather like just 
make things and so that's how, 

705
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,800
like, fusa started that. 
And my now, husband who's my 

706
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,600
business partner and co-founder 
at Musa, I was laid off. 

707
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,300
He was also working in 
Consulting and trying to get. 

708
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,500
He got a job offer to work in 
fintech, but then that company 

709
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,900
was literally acquired while he 
was like, loading, the U-Haul to

710
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:11,400
move, o for that job. 
And then it sort of fell 

711
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,000
through. 
So he was unemployed 

712
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,000
unexpectedly. 
I had a friend who needed me to 

713
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,200
fill in, for his teaching job 
because he was working on his 

714
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,500
startup or something. 
I was like, okay, I'll take a 

715
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,700
teaching gig part-time for a 
semester that was enough to, 

716
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:28,300
like, pay the basic Bills and 
then we like started our design 

717
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:30,300
studio. 
So we could be more Hands-On and

718
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:34,400
not like be middle, managers, or
work for McKinsey people. 

719
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:37,500
I imagine that must be still 
quite an undertaking, especially

720
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:41,300
unexpectedly to be starting your
own Studio. 

721
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:46,500
This is about 2013, okay. 
And the real impetus was 

722
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:49,700
actually Hurricane Sandy. 
That's a problem. 

723
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,100
It was a problem. 
I was we hadn't. 

724
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:55,200
We were dating and started this 
company together but We weren't 

725
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,300
living together yet and my 
apartment was down in the 

726
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:01,300
financial district. 
And the building flooded, oh, a 

727
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,800
block and a half from the 
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel for 

728
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,200
people who know New York City. 
But it's basically it's the 

729
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,600
tunnel that connects the bottom 
of Manhattan to Brooklyn. 

730
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,600
And what happened was even 
though it's like far enough away

731
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,200
from the rivers, it filled up 
with, like, rainwater and stuff 

732
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,000
like that, and there was so much
water that it backed out, and 

733
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,900
the water came out and flooded a
bunch of buildings and my former

734
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,600
apartment building It was like a
1920, something building used to

735
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,400
be the headquarters of a 
shipping company cuz at the 

736
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,300
bottom of the island and it was 
also like, all sorts of 

737
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:35,500
grandfathered things, that 
weren't up to code, like the 

738
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:40,400
electrical was in the basement. 
So all of that flooded at first,

739
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,800
they were like a, you're not 
going home for like six months. 

740
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,400
Yeah. 
And so, that's like up in the 

741
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,600
East Village, with my boy, 
friend, and business partner and

742
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,600
then it was like just some 
surreal stuff. 

743
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,300
Like there was a conference that
I had been asked to attend as 

744
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:56,700
part of my position at Purpose 
that other agency that was in 

745
00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:59,900
Italy and it was scheduled 
literally like a week after 

746
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,900
Hurricane Sandy, hit New York 
City's. 

747
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:05,500
I went from like sitting in the 
East Village with no electricity

748
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,600
and no hot water to, you know, 
the airport still works and it's

749
00:40:09,608 --> 00:40:10,900
like, I'm not going to stay 
here. 

750
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:13,400
I'm going to, I'm going to 
Italy. 

751
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,100
So it's like here at this 
conference, with all of these, 

752
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,000
like, Urban Design, people 
talking about like Urban 

753
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,700
resilience at like, you know, 
Lago di Como Lake Como which, if

754
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:25,600
you're, if you're a Our Wars 
fan. 

755
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:30,100
That is where like Anakin and 
padmé have their wedding secret 

756
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:32,800
weapon. 
Oh like sort of we're in love. 

757
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,800
See, and that's Lake Como in 
Italy and it's also where like 

758
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,100
George Clooney has his house. 
Wow. 

759
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:44,900
So it's yeah, so it's like all 
sorts of like first world 

760
00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:48,500
problems and this like when your
life is that surreal for a 

761
00:40:48,508 --> 00:40:51,100
month, you're like starting your
own Design Studio. 

762
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:52,900
Seems like not a big deal. 
Yeah. 

763
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:56,200
Why. 
The world is that got another 

764
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,100
five like people want to invite 
me to Italy to talk about Urban 

765
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:01,200
Design. 
Resilience. 

766
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,300
Like so I guess I can do things.
I would say that. 

767
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:08,700
That's a pretty good indicator. 
You're kind of off to a jump 

768
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:11,300
start here with fusa. 
Like, I mean, how did you 

769
00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:14,100
position yourselves early on? 
Like, it was really 

770
00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:16,600
experimental. 
So, my partner doesn't come from

771
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,600
a traditional design background,
either, he studied psychology at

772
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,400
Harvard and then also studied 
public policy at NYU. 

773
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,700
Now he's back at school at MIT, 
doing all sorts of space 

774
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:30,000
futurism stuff. 
You actually spoke, he spoke at 

775
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,800
the IGA conference as well for 
professional qualified reasons, 

776
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,800
not for new participating, but 
he's a like, a design futurist 

777
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,400
systems designer at the MIT 
media lab. 

778
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,200
That's so cool. 
But he also liked in high 

779
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,500
school. 
He worked for like a lawyer. 

780
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:50,700
He was like a paralegal in high 
school and over the Summers and 

781
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:53,300
for a while. 
So he actually actually knew how

782
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:57,000
to like, run a Business, which 
was super helpful. 

783
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,200
Can see I went to Art School 
like my degree was, you know, at

784
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,400
NYU Tisch and so I didn't know 
how to do any of that sort of 

785
00:42:04,408 --> 00:42:06,400
stuff. 
So he was able to do that, as 

786
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,500
well as some of like the 
strategy and the client facing 

787
00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:11,700
stuff. 
And I was kind of the design 

788
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:14,200
generalist in that sense because
I had my fingers and all sorts 

789
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,500
of different things. 
So we did like some branding 

790
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:21,100
work and some like UI ux work 
for like mostly startups and 

791
00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:25,000
some nonprofits things like that
and over the years, we Kind of 

792
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,900
evolved a bit. 
Both of us were teaching at the 

793
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:29,300
parts of the school of design 
for a bit. 

794
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:33,500
I'm still affiliated with 
Parsons and we got involved with

795
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:36,700
designing for city government, 
like some service design and 

796
00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:39,800
design research work on like 
public services in New York. 

797
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,200
We were invited to do some work 
in Rwanda as well. 

798
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:46,200
Okay, the Rwandan government but
also for the genocide Memorial 

799
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,100
there about like Museum, 
experience and storytelling kind

800
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:53,000
of stuff. 
Those got kind of varied the 

801
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,000
kinds of stuff we were doing and
then The most recent Incarnation

802
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,300
before grad school really took 
my husband away from the 

803
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:04,400
day-to-day stuff of the practice
and covid kind of shut 

804
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,900
everything down. 
The last few years before that 

805
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:09,200
we were doing a lot of corporate
training and facilitation 

806
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,400
basically like, teaching 
corporate leaders, like design 

807
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,600
thinking, or design, centered 
methods of creativity. 

808
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:22,500
So, it's kind of like adult 
daycare day, like, some 

809
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:25,700
boondoggle e stuff but also some
Like strategic planning session 

810
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:29,100
but like designer as 
facilitator, I'm just trying to 

811
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,900
help business people think a 
little bit more creatively. 

812
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:36,900
And yeah, not just about 
rectangles or whatever business,

813
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:39,200
right? 
And you know, spreadsheets and 

814
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,300
all of that. 
Yeah. 

815
00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:43,300
And also a, I need the numbers. 
Yeah. 

816
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:46,400
The ROI and all of that and 
that's where like working with 

817
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,500
the ex Mackenzie people kind of 
came in handy. 

818
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,800
It's all your God. 
Yes it can like is there a more 

819
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,500
number e please and do this sort
of like business stuff? 

820
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:58,500
Can like communicate and 
PowerPoint and do all of that 

821
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:00,100
sort of stuff. 
But we also did this kind of 

822
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:03,200
work with communities that 
facilitation we in Rwanda. 

823
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,800
Like we got to work with 
genocide survivors, to really 

824
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,800
like turn their ideas into the 
concepts. 

825
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,500
For like we designing parts of 
the museum experience. 

826
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,200
We worked with the Highline for 
a project where they have this 

827
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,800
network of people that they've 
convened all across North 

828
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,100
America who want to do like not 
like copycats of The High Line, 

829
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:25,100
but other projects were, there's
some sort of like Like old 

830
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:27,200
infrastructure that they want to
turn into something else. 

831
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,700
Like there's a LA River Project 
which yes, that's a big thing. 

832
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:35,100
Which for folks who don't know, 
like the LA River is a real 

833
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:38,700
thing, but it's like covered. 
It's been paved in concrete. 

834
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:40,900
Yeah. 
Seen it in like action movie. 

835
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:44,400
Chase scenes as well as like 
some like, you know, 90s hip-hop

836
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,600
video. 
It looks like someone took a 

837
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,300
gutter and made it really big 
really big. 

838
00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:52,900
It's mostly like a trickle for 
most of the year, but because 

839
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,500
Allah is the desert like, if it 
Aims at like floods and goes all

840
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:59,300
the way to the Pacific Ocean. 
So it's one of those things 

841
00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:02,300
where it's like you know people 
do stuff down there unofficially

842
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:05,900
but how can you make that a park
but also get people the hell out

843
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:08,000
of there. 
If it like rains and floods. 

844
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,700
Yeah, it's such a hard problem 
because I mean those things can 

845
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:15,000
be I mean we have that in Vegas 
to where I grew up. 

846
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,700
Yeah I think in Arizona they're 
called like a Roy OS, right? 

847
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,700
Yes yes, yes look. 
She's like you know, it sounds 

848
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:25,000
like a they would like name a 
lot of these fancy Asians for 

849
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,800
like Arroyo Vista. 
Yeah, so decorative Spanish. 

850
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,100
But if you like flood will 
actually like floodplain because

851
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:38,900
it looks like Dry River. 
Yeah. 

852
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:44,300
That God if you live in a place 
that is named after one of those

853
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,400
and the translation is something
that is truly ridiculous. 

854
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,300
Please do email me. 
I tell people not to do that, 

855
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:54,500
but I would love to hear about 
that one because I think those 

856
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,400
Very, very fun. 
So, how did you get into the the

857
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,700
podcasting game to begin with? 
That was really more like, my 

858
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:05,300
music background. 
So I like knew how to do some of

859
00:46:05,300 --> 00:46:07,000
this audio stuff. 
Yeah. 

860
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,200
Editing. 
And Mike's, and all of that 

861
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,100
boosted had a short-lived 
podcast. 

862
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:14,600
I was like an interview podcast 
about creativity community in 

863
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,200
the things that matter most 
called fusa cast, and we just 

864
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,900
interviewed people and hung out.
It was a great way to like 

865
00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:21,200
Network. 
Yeah. 

866
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,400
And me people, which is fun but 
it was just like a lot of work. 

867
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,300
Work. 
And then at AIG I was not 

868
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,700
actually initially hired to 
produce podcasts. 

869
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:34,000
Really, I responded to an AI GA 
email where they were 

870
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,800
advertising? 
What was then a part time 

871
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,700
position to be the design 
education manager. 

872
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:43,500
I attended aiga design Educators
conferences before. 

873
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:46,000
Like I got to go to one in 
Hawaii, back in the day. 

874
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:48,800
I presented a paper there. 
Wow. 

875
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,700
And some of the branding work I 
did in Brazil at purpose. 

876
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:54,400
So that was my one of my first 
like aiga. 

877
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,500
Experiences. 
And so I was on the email list 

878
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:00,100
and basically, they were looking
for somebody to come in part 

879
00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:03,700
time to be like a liaison to 
other design Educators, which is

880
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:07,100
like, okay, I'm doing that. 
And David had gone back to 

881
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,100
school at that point. 
So it's like I could use some 

882
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:12,700
extra like regular work and not 
have to be drumming up like 

883
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:14,900
freelance stuff all the times 
I'll do that. 

884
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,300
This is during the time when AIG
had an interim executive 

885
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:23,300
director and so we were like 
experimenting with a lot of 

886
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:26,200
things. 
Or like, I don't even remember 

887
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,300
the exact chronology, but I 
think we were, like, waiting for

888
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:32,800
some things to happen. 
And I was like, I have capacity 

889
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,900
in my, like, weekly hours. 
Why don't we just do something 

890
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:38,900
else? 
You know, the other part of my 

891
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:42,800
position was to basically be an 
ambassador for AI GA s design 

892
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,200
Futures. 
Yeah, research, which was 

893
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,400
published back in 2018. 
It was research led by Meredith 

894
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:49,900
Davis. 
All the research was done and 

895
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,300
published by the time, they 
hired me, but they just needed 

896
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:54,500
somebody to like get it out 
there in different. 

897
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,500
Arms and make it like, less 
academic. 

898
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:01,700
And even though I do teach, you 
know, design, I'm not like an 

899
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:04,900
academic in that sense. 
And so part of the response was 

900
00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:08,300
to do the first AIG a podcast 
which was called design feature.

901
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:11,600
Now which was like also 
interview based but talking 

902
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,600
about some of these themes of 
where our profession is headed. 

903
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:16,900
Yeah. 
And then covid happened and they

904
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:21,800
asked me to come on full-time to
host webinars and produce online

905
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,600
content and stuff like that. 
So now again, It's a mix like my

906
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,200
design education background with
like my content background and 

907
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,400
take a break from having to live
off of client work this, my main

908
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,900
gig it's a big role because I 
mean you also now have in-person

909
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:37,800
events to deal with to. 
Yeah. 

910
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,400
Like this whole thing which is 
huge. 

911
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:42,600
I am shocked at how big this is 
even. 

912
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,000
Yeah, it's so surreal. 
Yeah. 

913
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,400
And like to just even Beyond a 
program with like Debbie Millman

914
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,800
and Brian like so surreal, 
that's an impressive thing to do

915
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,100
like, And I think people are 
hungry for it, you know. 

916
00:48:57,500 --> 00:48:59,500
Yeah. 
Designers like Community, they 

917
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:01,800
like Community. 
It's not just content, right? 

918
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,600
That's the whole. 
Like I think content has become 

919
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,100
so banal, right? 
Especially that like a driven, 

920
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,900
big Tech talks about, you know, 
yeah. 

921
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:15,700
And there's that side of it or 
the, you know, teens doing 

922
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,200
pranks which both sides are 
quite bad. 

923
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:22,100
Yeah, it's like I mean content I
guess is part of my job title 

924
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:25,100
but really it is about like 
connecting with Community 

925
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:28,900
whether it's online or now in 
person again and the kinds of 

926
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:31,700
experiences we have around that 
content, right? 

927
00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:33,700
Yeah. 
If people want to find your 

928
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:35,900
podcasts and your work, where 
would they go? 

929
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:41,600
I am infinitely Google Google 
for being a boy and that that's 

930
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,100
an easier to say a word but 
nobody's uses being as a verb. 

931
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:49,100
Sorry it was all really try. 
He tried so hard you know, it's 

932
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,300
and I right here to yeah the 
right here I could be yahud 

933
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:57,900
bills out there. 
In the in the adjacent building,

934
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:01,600
looking at us just crying. 
It's like being could also 

935
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:09,700
sponsor this podcast, I think 
they've given up on Bing but 

936
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:13,100
yeah just look for you can 
actually just search for me as 

937
00:50:13,100 --> 00:50:16,700
leash on likely like Bruce Lee 
Sean like Sean Connery or Wang 

938
00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:20,500
Hua and G is my last name and 
you can find me although now I 

939
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,500
have to like update my personal 
website because that's woefully 

940
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,600
out of date. 
As all designers personal 

941
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,900
websites 10. 
Yeah or just look for aiga 

942
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:33,000
design wherever you get Podcast 
for our aiga stuff. 

943
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,700
We're wrapping up the season and
I think we're going to take the 

944
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:39,000
rest of the year off and we'll 
in figure out some things and 

945
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,900
maybe new formats for 2023. 
And there's there's a couple 

946
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:45,300
different podcast that go in 
that fee so you can get a lot of

947
00:50:45,300 --> 00:50:47,300
different stuff sort of mixed 
in. 

948
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:50,800
Well thank you, thank you so 
much for agreeing to be on this 

949
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,800
very dumb show and taking some 
time out of your very, very busy

950
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,100
schedule at this. 
Friends. 

951
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,500
Yeah, thank you Sean. 
This is like the most fun I've 

952
00:50:57,500 --> 00:50:59,800
had in a while. 
Like obviously there are a lot 

953
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,200
of very serious and important 
conversations. 

954
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,400
We need to have about design 
which we had on the main stage, 

955
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,900
but it's good to just like have 
some conversations about the 

956
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:14,300
laws as well. 
I'm trying to find where the 

957
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:22,400
hell I put my stuff that oh, 
hey, I found it if you like this

958
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,300
show, why not? 
Subscribe to it, and The player 

959
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:28,500
that you use for podcast 
playing, there's so many options

960
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:31,500
for that and this shows on all 
of them, you can just search for

961
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:33,000
the words. 
Did I do that on those? 

962
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,700
But if you really want to have a
good time, may I suggest 

963
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:40,300
visiting our website, did I do 
that design, which was designed 

964
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:43,900
by yours truly, and is chock 
full of wonderful things, 

965
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:46,600
including some good good images 
that go along with each and 

966
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,700
every episode of the show. 
Manny. 

967
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:51,000
Now, if you want those images, 
delivered less and less 

968
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,700
frequently to you on various 
social media Services. 

969
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,200
You can So get to those from 
that website. 

970
00:51:57,300 --> 00:52:00,300
This is, did I do that? 
I'm Sean Schumacher. 

971
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,900
And as we always say at the end 
of every episode did I do that? 

972
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:10,600
Thank you so much. 
Okay. 

973
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:21,000
Bye. 
Very good. 

974
00:52:21,300 --> 00:53:04,800
Very good article. 
If you want to edit though, you 

975
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,400
can do. 
So on the Fly by saying the word

976
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,100
rutabaga, there is very little 
chance that we'll talk about 

977
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:12,300
riotous rutabaga is the safe 
word. 

978
00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:16,600
Yeah, thank you for phrasing, it
that way. 

979
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:21,400
I'm always reluctant to do that.
This is a kink friendly podcast.

980
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,600
I have a friend from an 
acquaintance from grad school, 

981
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:26,900
who used to work as a 
professional dominatrix? 

982
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,800
Really? 
Like one of her clients. 

983
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:34,800
Safe words, Chaka Khan. 
Conversation. 

984
00:53:40,900 --> 00:53:45,400
Oh my God, Chaka Khan. 
That's a really good one. 

985
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,300
But then you lose out on all the
important Chaka, Khan 

986
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:51,900
conversations that you can have 
read during. 

987
00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:55,700
And how do you even say, Chaka, 
calm, like a ball gag in your 

988
00:53:55,700 --> 00:53:56,800
mouth. 
I have no idea. 

989
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:00,500
Yeah, that doesn't quite work.