I think one of the ways that organizations build trust is by
how they come back from a mistake, whether it was the CEO
did something incredibly boneheaded, or maybe the
organization has been caught in a lie or caught in a scandal or
just they didn't plan appropriately for the needs of
their audiences. Hello, and welcome to design,
adjacent the podcast that talks about the Nexus of design both
today. And tomorrow, I'm your host Ben
yet Johnson. And today, our guest is a
Content strategist, business leader entrepreneur, and
all-around advocate for trust. Our Guest today is Margo
Bluestein, Margo is one of the most preeminent voices in
content strategy in the industry today, she is the author of In
strategy at work real-world stories to strengthen every
interactive project. So use the principle of
appropriate ink, a brand and content, strategy, consultancy
based in Boston as a speaker and strategic advisor.
She is worked with marketing and brand teams across a range of
organizations, for the past two decades.
Many of the leading brands of consumer products, education and
Technology are spaces in which he's worked.
She is the creator of brand sword developed a Popular
message architecture. Architecture driven approach to
content strategy today. She's taught and offers lectures
around the world on brand driven content, strategy, and designing
for trust. And that's what brings her to
Designed adjacent today. Her most recent publication is
trustworthy, how the smartest Brands, beat cynicism, and
Bridge. The trust gackt and content
today, I like to Welcome to our podcasts.
Marga, thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to have
you here. You we were talking earlier.
How this conversation happens? Really full circle.
I first met you through your work with content strategy and
thinking about web and interactive spaces for
organizations then then to see your exploration of trust and
then this examination of how design can have a space in are
really in my role. Now, aiga, and my previous role
at BBB dealing, with trust these subjects have always been at
this Nexus content, trust in design strategy.
So as we started, I'd love To just what brought you along this
path. How did you end up at this Nexus
of trust and design? Well, I think like so many of us
have faced over the past few years, wherever you are in your
design, career things have been a little bit unsettled different
and I think for me going back, maybe six seven years now, I was
noticing how things were starting to change in the
political arena in media, that covered politics, where it used
to be that if we caught upon Addition in a lie that would
Scuttle their campaign or just kind of catching any sort of big
thought leader or Big Brand organization.
It'll I or in a state of hypocrisy kind of scuttle the
brand and undermine the brand experience, the customers
experience and I wondered if the problems that I was seeing in
the political sphere where that didn't really seem to be
happening anymore on either side of the aisle.
I wondered if those issues would affect my clients as well,
because I largely don't work with politicians or with
political organizations too much.
As client me, my clients are more in retail and Healthcare
and pharmaceuticals and Dida be areas.
And I wondered if some of those issues around cynicism and how
people were reacting or not reacting to problems in
leadership and deceit, if they would affect those organizations
to turns out, yes, they do all those Is that we see around
around cynicism where people were saying like you can't trust
any politician, they all lie to you but doesn't matter.
Whatever new information comes out, I'm still going to vote the
way I vote some of those same Trends in thinking were
affecting my clients to. So that's when I started digging
in to figure out why. And what was happening for
brands that are able to get past customer, cynicism or cynicism
among among voters or donors or consumers?
Yes, and so that's what kind of motivated me to look at this
path of, if a brand needs to design its way past cynicism,
what is on the other side of that?
And it turns out on the other side of cynicism is trust.
But it's interesting. We talk about our relationships
in Brands today and using the term cynicism.
We think about Brands can have the history of brands have been
around about 100 years and kind of grew out of advertising.
And in many ways, it was self-interested for the space.
But we've seen Brands evolve over the years, through
advertising in the 50s and 60s, and 70s, 80s and going forward,
we're all of a sudden, our relationship started to change
with the Brand's where it became less about an Enterprise selling
goods and more about a human connected experience.
We think about Brands, how have you seen that play out in our
expectations with Brands today. It's interesting that you map
out that that kind of trend where we've gone from
interactions with the The big nameless faceless Corporation to
now expecting that kind of more interpersonal, communication
more that human touch. I've been reading this wonderful
book from Chip. Kidd it came out, maybe, like
six seven years ago. I want to say It's called Go a
kids spell Ki DD after chip Kidd guide to graphic design.
Yeah. He's all about that.
Double entendre which I definitely appreciate a kid's
guide to graphic design and it breaks down principles and
graphic design, particularly related to two.
Doing and how you establish a brand visually and verbally.
And there, he points out in the very beginning of the book, this
evolution of Brands, going from how we, how we relate to them.
As those nameless faceless entities that maybe are
represented like a signature or in sort of like a graphic Motif.
Now we're expecting something more more human and Humane, but
before all of that, we also expected something more more
human. So many Brands grew out of the
interpersonal. Animal relationship.
You established a brand your sense of it, based on your
relationship, maybe with the cobbler to whom you brought your
shoes or the fruit seller or the Taylor that you always used you
could associate them with things like BB quality or delivery or
consistency of product or innovation.
Those are the same kinds of principles that Brands try to
evoke now maybe it's about being Scrappy and creative or maybe
about being resilient and responsible and long.
Lasting and established, whatever those different
qualities are. As they develop kind of a
message architecture to guide branding.
It's really the thing that I think has evolved is just the
outward face of the brand, our goals on establishing those
principles and communicating them clearly and consistently.
I don't think those goals have changed, but now we have more
channels through which to communicate so certainly more
areas in which we need to be consistent.
Whether it's on Twitter or Or Pinterest or Tick-Tock or in
print or ever. And I think along with that now
there is more of an expectation from consumers to have an
immediate response from the brands with which they interact
understanding from those brands that they're going to get a more
tailored specific relevant experience.
And I think it's in that expectation of relevance rather
than a generic interaction that brand see the benefit in
becoming more personal in signing off with somebody.
Name on the last week that you get from them that type of
thing, right? It's interesting in our world
today, that successful business interactions are really
successful human interactions. Yes.
And kind of our conversation, you know, we start off with
Brands. It's a set list of feature sets
and benefits that we talked about kind of quality, we can
provide these spaces but now we've evolved in that our
expectations with those interactions as you mentioned,
listening to your words and describing it, I love it, your
words became more human. As you talked about the But what
people expect with the credibility that we expect the
brand as the extension of, as the company of the product to
almost behave as though we're interacting with another person.
Yeah. And I think that now is a great
time for organizations to lean into that idea of what it means
to be more human to, to present the human face of an
organization, whether it's by naming and introducing more
people on their website and crediting more people more
individuals with The different products and and content that is
presented on their site, whether it's in blog posts or are
talking about, who was the team that worked on the latest
product, who was the lead engineer, who's the lead
animator, all those types of things or by simply letting that
that human side that is not Flawless.
But has flaws and foibles letting that Human Side lead
because I think that's where we're able to establish trust
through vulnerability that corporations don't always have
corporations. Don't always want to be
vulnerable. Honorable they want to fling out
that kind of false bravado but when people talk, we can talk
about our own personal Evolution and learning processes and what
not. But let's talk a bit more about
that vulnerability as it relates to expectations because we think
about it and you mentioned this in your book at the end that our
brand relationships are really a kind of agreement between us in
the brand, but I wonder in today's world in which we have
these agreements, but the world above us around us and beneath
our feet are always So there's that change the term of the
agreement and where Brands may think that they have a great
relationship but the world changes, how do Brands respond
to that change in expectation of agreement?
I think we have to interrogate. What is that agreement about?
What are we agreeing to is it that we're as consumers or as
designers engaging with consumers representing a brand?
Are we promising them Perfection where we promising them that we
will always get things right out of the gate.
Our product roadmap is going to anticipate So Pate your every
need and we're going to constantly anticipate economic
conditions that influence those needs.
Because if that's what your company is promising, I think
you need to find a new company because that is untenable and
Fantastical. But I think if we instead say
well what our consumers, expect and what we can promise is
something more of an asymptote toward Perfection that we are
constantly making steps to improve to reward Improvement.
We're a learning organization. What we rolled out was pretty
good, but we're going to keep getting it better that I think
demonstrates respect. That's I think the agreement
that we have with our audiences that we're not going to abandon
products. We're not going to roll out a
Blog only to no longer have an editorial calendar.
That can support it in six months.
We're not going to launch new products or benefits and abandon
our Legacy audience. I think that speaks more to to
respect and I think it also speaks to a kind Of evolution
and vulnerability. That is manageable any
organization that promises too much Perfection, that leads with
bravado is going to fall on its face.
So it's interesting. You say that I think about some
of the big Classic Brands that have built themselves into that
corner, you know? So how do you as Legacy brand
and what we won't name the guilty for our conversation
today? But as a legacy brand in the
world is dynamically changing. What advice do you have for
free? Also working on a legacy brand,
you know, which is often, I've had friends and colleagues.
When you work on a really successful Legacy brand, one of
the biggest challenge you have, is that immediate history of
success history of success or maybe history of things you
need. You now feel like you need to
deny and say that was never something with which we want to
be Associated. Come on.
So I think we see both things going on.
I think in any organization that has that long history you've got
a lot of baggage to bring on but I think there's always That
opportunity to say you thought you knew us then and you like
this or maybe you didn't like us.
Well, watch what's coming next? And I would say that any
organization that is so enamored with their history that they are
calcified and refused to move Beyond.
It is not going to continue to enjoy success.
I think it's the organizations whether it's a startup that it's
continuing that it has invested in learning from its broad
audience. Not just being so in love with
the ideas of it. Investors or the ideas of its
CEO. I think any organization that is
committing to to learn from its audience and whether they are a
start-up or an organization with a 100-year history can continue
to evolve and that's what our customers TR4, that's what they
champy. And they want to see us evolve
with the times whether it's rolling out new products or
putting a new stake in the ground around, social issues,
that demonstrates an organization's Connection and
evolution. So we talk about what's on the
other side. Being trust, one of the things
that that emerges is the notion of communities that are based in
driven by trust that fall into the brand that create kind of a
loyalty loop with this Basin are.
How can Brands today Foster these deeper Community
connections? I think, for a brand to be
relevant, you need to be where your audience is.
And I think that's something that anybody in user research
knows. And I think that's something
that anybody in designed knows, if you're if you're making
different visual references through your work, you want to
be calling on things that will be relevant to your audience.
And I think when it comes to how Brands engage in community
around different, social issues, the same thing and I mean,
granted for a long time. There's been that perspective in
business that business should stay out of politics, but we
know that stance is a mark of privilege.
It's saying I'm above of these issues that may be affecting my
customers. And itself is a political
statement in itself is so more and more we've seen and I mean,
the Edelman trust survey proves this out.
A lot of other surveys have proven this out more and more
customers are saying that they do want to know the political,
viewpoints the Investments, the perspectives of the c.e.o. of
the organizations that they are choosing to support through.
Through their purchases, through their spending habits.
And I think for any kind of brand to engage in an authentic
way where they're not just their customers.
But with their Community, if they're using that word, that
means going to and learning about and getting involved with
sponsoring things investing in the issues that are important to
your audience. And yeah, that may alienate some
customers. One of the examples that I share
in trustworthy is from pens, he's the the spice Merchants
based in the Midwest, I think they've got stores in many
metros now. Certainly around the u.s. and
how when they've made their politics known.
Yeah, they do alienate some customers, they get some
strongly worded emails but year over year, since they've been
doing that, their sales have increased 50% year-over-year,
and that's because they've been able to expand Their audience.
When you make your politics, know when you make your values
visible. That's how your audience finds
you. It can be through design
choices. It can be through the Content,
you and stories you tell on your site and what you emphasize it
can be making those those donations, those politics
explicit as well. So I think there are many ways
there for organizations to enrich the interaction with
their communities. In an authentic way, you know
you made this comment a couple times you mention the word
design choices. So we're going to Pivot on that
and go deep into come the world of a designer and one of the
chapters in the book, I love you.
Look at The tension between Fidelity of information and
abstraction, and the space in which designers have tons of
information in front of them. All the complexity we have in
the world and our task with the opportunity and the
responsibility of turning that into something meaningful, to
build a relationship talk a bit about that challenge of having
all of the information and figuring out how to present it
in a way that actually credible in builds a relationship and
Trust. Oh, those are Two distinct
issues. Making the presentation of
information or maybe we could say the information that you
derived from the data if you want to call up that data
information knowledge, wisdom, Continuum making it credible and
faithful to the original data or content and also making it
trustworthy and useful and usable.
I think those are distinct issues.
One of my favorite examples for this is looking at the world of
exhibit design because I think this is really the task.
That exhibit curators designers what they face as far as how to
tell a credible and Youthful story, looking at the objects
that they acquire or have on loan from other museums.
And I think being able to tell a credible story starts with
looking at the information that you have the data on which you
can draw disabled, what is the point of all this?
There's a lot of it and I'm not going to expect my audience if
it's in the case of a museum exhibit where Dealing with a
moving audience, maybe different age levels, and different
heights. Maybe you've got like little
kids as well as adults. You've got some information
screened on the wall. As captions other things that
are in display cases. Maybe big painting smaller
sculptures and that people moving around it.
Well, you can play with different aspects of curation
that are really kind of playing with the idea of curation as
creation. Are you creating new meaning
from the content that you have through?
Juxtaposition and Arrangement, and what you decide to include
vs. Exclude, what's big and
prominent and in the center of a room or for that matter has a
lot of white space around it on a web page.
What deserves the caption with with detailed alt text and what
maybe gets omitted. How do you decide what to
emphasize in that? That helps create a new story
and I think that's how exhibit designers create new knowledge
by bringing people through a space.
And helping them absorb new information from what they have
decided to include versus exclude what they've decided to
emphasize. I think that's also how
designers responsibly create new meaning.
When you're looking at, maybe the variety of content types,
you have what shows up in high contrast and what you allow to
kind of Fade Into the background figuratively.
Or literally did your room font choice and color scheme.
And what not? And I think, Those choices
around how we decide, what deserves big storytelling, how
we decide what deserves to be featured, what we choose to
emphasize, and what we D emphasize, that gets back to the
idea of credibility, are we making our stories credible?
And then are we making them useful in the service of
creating? It may be empowering a more
confident audience that can make better decisions based on
whatever they're trying to do. In interacting with a website or
in picking up a piece of print collateral, are we helping them
answer questions and self-educate that's really the
opportunity that designers have as storytellers as creators of
new knowledge. I was going to ask you, what
role did you see today of the power of Storytelling as it
relates to building trust? And we talked a lot about
creating stories, but the role of Storytelling in taking it one
step further to establish trust, I think when we throw a Around
that terb storytelling especially in marketing and
content circles up a lot. I think it's up there with
transparency and empathy and everybody's like, well, it is
empathy and nobody really knows anymore.
How much is it just compassion that we're serving up and maybe
that's enough to, but going back to the idea of Storytelling, we
throw that term around a lot and I think when we unpack the value
of telling stories Beyond just, hey anecdotes maybe do establish
a little bit of empathy or they say Oh you had that experience?
I did too. So we must share something in
common and maybe I can trust that about you because we have
that common experience. I think what story and
storytelling also allows us is the ability to sprinkle in
details that make an experience or makeup product or an idea or
a service more plausible so that we can say, I do believe what
you're serving up whether it's a political candidate in which I
should believe. Leave or an idea in which I
could believe or a product that you're saying, would be just
right for me. Well, well, tell me why what are
the, what are the things about me?
That you might know that you could sprinkle in that feel
relevant? That feel relatable.
And I think that's what storytelling allows us to do.
Put something in context, in a context, that more people can
understand. How do you think that this
understanding can Empower this next generation of designers,
He's working on next generation problems.
I guess I know I was just kind of maligning it but maybe this
is where empathy comes in because I think as we look at
the evolution of design over the past say 100 some years.
So if we start out kind of pre Bauhaus and look at design
around Brands and designing products to support human usage
in human experience. A lot of the thinking in there,
a lot of the Choices in there, have been driven by genius,
designers, genius, companies companies, the had a great idea
that they wanted to put out into the world or an individual
designer that wanted to put something out into the world or
a brand that wanted to look a certain way or say something
different. And I think those choices
sometimes have been great but they haven't always addressed.
The most pressing problems, may be the most common problems of
their audiences. Not to say that we don't need
some of those things or look back and say, wasn't that great.
Didn't that look great? Let's, let's all applaud for
that signage, or that poster toaster.
I think that the coming generation of designers has more
of an opportunity to engage with compassion and maybe this is
where we distinguish between compassion and empathy and
empathy says, I can relate to your needs because I have those
needs to we've learned by really Interrogating representation and
design and saying like hey you know, if we're making a product
that needs to meet the needs of everyone, maybe we need people
on the team that look more like everyone that have more of an
age range that represents everyone.
So maybe we say that, you don't need empathy.
But God sure, we always engage in with compassion that says, I
can relate to you, not because I share your experiences, but
rather I can relate to you because you're a fellow human,
that deserves my respect. So I think it's bringing
Continuing to have in bringing respect for our audiences and
engaging with the full breadth of our audiences Thinking,
Beyond ourselves and thinking, there's going to be people using
this that are not like me but I can still work toward meeting
their needs. I think it's engaging in that
way. That's really the opportunity
for design moving forward. Really the call to action for
design. And yes, a powerful way to think
about it. I have a question for you
though. Is there hope for Brands?
Who don't Get it right? Is there space after brands that
may make missteps or struggle with this transition?
What advice would you have for Brands to get at it again?
I'm an optimist, I know that is true because I wear contact
lenses, but and I've worn glasses for more than 30 years
and every time I fall asleep with my contact lenses, and when
I wake up the next day, my first thought is not, I forgot to take
out my contacts, but rather my vision must have Miraculously
repaired while I slept. So I'm an optimist and I do
believe there is always an opportunity for not necessarily
reinvention but certainly for repair and repentance and
evolution. And I think that idea of
repentance through acknowledging what you did wrong
acknowledging, how you could have been better and how you're
not going to make that mistake again and then Evolution
actively changing. I think there is Always an
opportunity for that with smart organizations.
And I think one of the ways that organizations build trust is by
how they come back from a mistake, whether it was the CEO
did something incredibly boneheaded or maybe the
organization has been caught in a lie or caught in a scandal or
just they didn't plan appropriately for the needs of
their audiences. One of the, my favorite examples
in the book comes from Ted, the wonderful video platform.
The many of us Way too much time watching it's when they faced an
issue. A few years ago where some of
their most popular videos they realized contained, faulty
content, faulty ideas, spurious content, maybe they were ideas
that have been disproven by other people in the scientific
Community or they were popular videos that were great when they
came out, but the science that they featured had evolved, and
they were no longer accurate. They were still getting a lot.
A lot of traffic. The problem was folks in the
scientific community. Were pointed fingers at Ted and
saying this is great, it's popular but it's junk, it's junk
science. What are they going to do about
it? These people are idiots to still
have it up there and their brand was really taking a hit and they
could have looked the other way. They could have quietly taken
those videos off the site. They could have any confronted
people publicly and said, look, you know, we're not some sort of
like Clearinghouse for scientific research.
Yeah, some things may be wrong but it's not our problem.
Many organizations would take them not our problem.
Of approach and instead they leaned into basically their
mistakes and they said, yeah, this is a problem.
They convened, a group of some of their harshest critics to
say, what do you recommend? What do you what do you think
about this? What do you think the big risks
are? What are some different ways
that we could approach it? And by engaging in that process
of prototyping in public, may be engaging in some code design,
there to solicit ideas and take them in turn.
Colonel and evolve. They ended up bringing some new
content types into their CMS and then onto the front end of their
site that offer disclaimers, some that would redirect people
or give them the opportunity to redirect to a more updated video
or more up-to-date video on the same topic if the science had
evolved. So they offered those different
content types and showed how they were willing to accept
criticism continue to evolve to prototype in public, and the
process of doing That helped change some of their harshest
critics than into some of their strongest Champions.
I think we see this at a lot of organizations when they're
willing to evolve, when they're willing to First, say we messed
up, let's explain what happened. Let's respect our audience so
much. We're going to tell them why
this happened and what we're going to do about it.
And then we're going to commit to doing those things.
We see how those organizations can evolve mature and come out
on top. With an even stronger support
from Their audience is. We think about kind of the
evolutions of brand, simple question, but defining one, how
would you define a brand today in 2022?
How would you define a brand? I think it's the reflection of
an organization that lives in the hearts and minds of its
audience. It is that reflection though,
that that mirror image and sometimes mirrors are distorted
their distorted by, you know, the weather or damage that
they've suffered or just other. Things around them so that
reflection is not always what you'd like to see and it lives
in the hearts and minds of your audience, not necessarily your
target audience, not just them, but everyone around them to
maybe a much broader group than you realize, I think the
opportunity for Brands and I use the term broadly to mean
organizations that are b2c big retailers.
Small companies, governmental entities institutions.
I think the Opportunity is to address.
The problem of cynicism, the loss of confidence that your
audience is suffering. Maybe not just an interactions
with you, but in all of their experiences right now in the
world and to step into that void and work to bolster their
confidence, to help them feel like they can engage in a more
Savvy way with the world, around them to evaluate sources of
information, and determine high-quality sources of
information. So that they can self educate
and become that much smarter. Because if we can help rebuild
their sense of confidence in themselves, we also gained their
sense of confidence in the organizations that we represent
and that's how we regain their sense of trust.
And I say that it's an opportunity for Brands to step
into that void because over the past several years, people have
grown more and more cynical because we've seen hypocrisy and
deceit in Al's of government and for organizations that we
thought we knew and we've seen little to no repercussions for
that, kind of Deceit and people have turned away from those
institutions. Maybe it was the paper of record
or organization that they grew up knowing or government itself.
They turned away from those institutions.
They've turned more inward to say, you know what looks right,
but seems right probably is what is right?
And they've grown more and more cynical but I think we can So
tap into their sense of hope because people still do believe
that if they scroll a little bit further, go a little bit further
down that YouTube Hulk they can be a little bit smarter, a
little bit better, maybe a little bit more well organized
we can tap into that sense of hope and possibility because
cynics look the world as it is and say that it is worse
designers and writers. We are we are Builders of Brands
and brainstorms and we look at the world as it is and say say
it can be better and I think any organization can help rebuild
that sense of trust and confidence so that it will be
better. I love your point here in.
There's one of your chapters that you open up with just the
simple statement that cynicism is cheek and hope takes work and
kind of this build an investment.
I also read for speaking something that struck me that I
think is really powerful to put a point on is that no one
experiences, your brand by itself that your brand is in,
Context with the world around you.
And if there's a relationship or a crisis and trust that your
audience, your consumers, having it can be reflected off of your
brand. It can be what they're having
with the brand next to them, which were part of that context
and understanding, you know, the power and the responsibility
that you have in that space, you know, we talked a bit about
designers roles and leaders and brand builders and creators.
There's a bit of agency whether articulated are not that we
have. In taking Our Brands and our
organizations forward with trust in the book.
I know you had a couple examples where you talk about designers
being able to navigate things like complexity and anxiety, and
spaces, using the tools of our profession and trade in these
very meaningful, direct ways to create new opportunities for
trust. Yeah.
And I think to your point that our work exists in a bigger
context, I think that can be a daunting thing, but I think it's
also thing that should give us. A sense of possibility.
It means that no one's job is irrelevant.
Whether you are the junior copywriter or the design,
intern, or the creative director, or chief creative
officer, or anyone in between, and regardless of your industry,
as well. I know, I spoke with a lot of
friends, over the course of the past couple of years that were
kind of in different points of Despair.
Basically saying, you know, I don't work as a designer in
healthcare, or For the CDC. How much does my work really
even matter? This point and I wanted to say,
to all of them and maybe that's what I was saying with with
trustworthy to all of them. Yeah, it does matter.
It matters a whole lot because if it's in the interactions with
your product or your small part of the website, that someone
feels a little bit, smarter more confident, more like, I know
exactly what I need to do so that I can feel safe moving
through this experience or making this decision.
And then that's a feeling that they can take into all other
parts of their lives. That's a feeling that they can
take to other moments in their day.
And I think that's an incredible thing.
I think that is the, that's the thing that we owe our users that
sense of empowerment and it can come through better
instructional, copy more anticipatory pop-ups that meet
their needs without being annoying or without distracting
them from purpose. It can be through information in
diagrams that Allow them to feel more accomplished, more able to
meet their own. Needs more oriented towards self
service. And I think if you can do that,
if you can clarify information, rather than obfuscating things,
if you could help people move through a complex decision by
streamlining, some of that information.
We're talking about like abstracting information a little
bit before and making decisions around what to emphasize and
what is not quite so important. I think if you can do that it's
a service that helps people bring that sense of confidence.
It's into may be all the more high pressure parts of their day
as well. These are really incredible way
to think about where we are in this moment where we are sir,
profession that hope takes work and there's lots of work for us
to do. And yes, it's been such a
pleasure Margo to spend at looking at can't believe our
time has flown by but it's such a pleasure to watch your
exploration and the care and research that you went into
thinking about this intersection of Of the future of brand of
Hope, trust and design. And I encourage everyone to add
trustworthy. How the smartest Brands beat
cynicism and build the trust Gap to the reading list, for those
who are designers who are leaders who creative thinkers
Margo's done an incredible job of pulling together and really
putting a focus on what our challenges and opportunities are
for tomorrow. So Margo I thank you as a
strategist. As a Content leader as a trust
advocate. And as a design advocate for
joining us today for this episode of design adjacent,
thank you. Thank you so much.
This is a lot of fun and I thank you all for joining us for a
design adjacent. Check us next time when we look
at the intersection of design both today.
And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben EF Johnson.
Thank you show notes for this. Episode will be available on AIG
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