1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,800 I think one of the ways that organizations build trust is by 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,200 how they come back from a mistake, whether it was the CEO 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,800 did something incredibly boneheaded, or maybe the 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,000 organization has been caught in a lie or caught in a scandal or 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,000 just they didn't plan appropriately for the needs of 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:25,300 their audiences. Hello, and welcome to design, 7 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:29,300 adjacent the podcast that talks about the Nexus of design both 8 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:32,500 today. And tomorrow, I'm your host Ben 9 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:36,100 yet Johnson. And today, our guest is a 10 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:40,400 Content strategist, business leader entrepreneur, and 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,400 all-around advocate for trust. Our Guest today is Margo 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,000 Bluestein, Margo is one of the most preeminent voices in 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,100 content strategy in the industry today, she is the author of In 14 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:56,700 strategy at work real-world stories to strengthen every 15 00:00:56,700 --> 00:00:59,500 interactive project. So use the principle of 16 00:00:59,500 --> 00:01:03,400 appropriate ink, a brand and content, strategy, consultancy 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,900 based in Boston as a speaker and strategic advisor. 18 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:10,900 She is worked with marketing and brand teams across a range of 19 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:13,000 organizations, for the past two decades. 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,400 Many of the leading brands of consumer products, education and 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,600 Technology are spaces in which he's worked. 22 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:23,400 She is the creator of brand sword developed a Popular 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,000 message architecture. Architecture driven approach to 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,000 content strategy today. She's taught and offers lectures 25 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,400 around the world on brand driven content, strategy, and designing 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,000 for trust. And that's what brings her to 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,900 Designed adjacent today. Her most recent publication is 28 00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:42,700 trustworthy, how the smartest Brands, beat cynicism, and 29 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:45,000 Bridge. The trust gackt and content 30 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:47,200 today, I like to Welcome to our podcasts. 31 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,400 Marga, thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to have 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,600 you here. You we were talking earlier. 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,200 How this conversation happens? Really full circle. 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,500 I first met you through your work with content strategy and 35 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:03,400 thinking about web and interactive spaces for 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,900 organizations then then to see your exploration of trust and 37 00:02:08,900 --> 00:02:11,700 then this examination of how design can have a space in are 38 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,800 really in my role. Now, aiga, and my previous role 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,700 at BBB dealing, with trust these subjects have always been at 40 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:20,900 this Nexus content, trust in design strategy. 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,700 So as we started, I'd love To just what brought you along this 42 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:26,900 path. How did you end up at this Nexus 43 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,800 of trust and design? Well, I think like so many of us 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,600 have faced over the past few years, wherever you are in your 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,000 design, career things have been a little bit unsettled different 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,900 and I think for me going back, maybe six seven years now, I was 47 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:47,600 noticing how things were starting to change in the 48 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,900 political arena in media, that covered politics, where it used 49 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:55,100 to be that if we caught upon Addition in a lie that would 50 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,900 Scuttle their campaign or just kind of catching any sort of big 51 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:01,800 thought leader or Big Brand organization. 52 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:06,500 It'll I or in a state of hypocrisy kind of scuttle the 53 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:09,600 brand and undermine the brand experience, the customers 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:15,300 experience and I wondered if the problems that I was seeing in 55 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:17,800 the political sphere where that didn't really seem to be 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,200 happening anymore on either side of the aisle. 57 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:24,400 I wondered if those issues would affect my clients as well, 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,400 because I largely don't work with politicians or with 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,100 political organizations too much. 60 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,900 As client me, my clients are more in retail and Healthcare 61 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:36,600 and pharmaceuticals and Dida be areas. 62 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:41,200 And I wondered if some of those issues around cynicism and how 63 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,200 people were reacting or not reacting to problems in 64 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,300 leadership and deceit, if they would affect those organizations 65 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:54,200 to turns out, yes, they do all those Is that we see around 66 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,100 around cynicism where people were saying like you can't trust 67 00:03:57,100 --> 00:04:00,400 any politician, they all lie to you but doesn't matter. 68 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,600 Whatever new information comes out, I'm still going to vote the 69 00:04:02,608 --> 00:04:07,700 way I vote some of those same Trends in thinking were 70 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:11,600 affecting my clients to. So that's when I started digging 71 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,200 in to figure out why. And what was happening for 72 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,399 brands that are able to get past customer, cynicism or cynicism 73 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:22,700 among among voters or donors or consumers? 74 00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:25,400 Yes, and so that's what kind of motivated me to look at this 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,500 path of, if a brand needs to design its way past cynicism, 76 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:32,000 what is on the other side of that? 77 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:35,700 And it turns out on the other side of cynicism is trust. 78 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,400 But it's interesting. We talk about our relationships 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,200 in Brands today and using the term cynicism. 80 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:45,800 We think about Brands can have the history of brands have been 81 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,200 around about 100 years and kind of grew out of advertising. 82 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,800 And in many ways, it was self-interested for the space. 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,400 But we've seen Brands evolve over the years, through 84 00:04:56,700 --> 00:05:00,200 advertising in the 50s and 60s, and 70s, 80s and going forward, 85 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:04,000 we're all of a sudden, our relationship started to change 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,800 with the Brand's where it became less about an Enterprise selling 87 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,700 goods and more about a human connected experience. 88 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,400 We think about Brands, how have you seen that play out in our 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,300 expectations with Brands today. It's interesting that you map 90 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:21,500 out that that kind of trend where we've gone from 91 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,900 interactions with the The big nameless faceless Corporation to 92 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:28,500 now expecting that kind of more interpersonal, communication 93 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:31,300 more that human touch. I've been reading this wonderful 94 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:34,600 book from Chip. Kidd it came out, maybe, like 95 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,500 six seven years ago. I want to say It's called Go a 96 00:05:37,508 --> 00:05:42,300 kids spell Ki DD after chip Kidd guide to graphic design. 97 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:43,200 Yeah. He's all about that. 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,000 Double entendre which I definitely appreciate a kid's 99 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,700 guide to graphic design and it breaks down principles and 100 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:52,800 graphic design, particularly related to two. 101 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,300 Doing and how you establish a brand visually and verbally. 102 00:05:56,300 --> 00:06:01,000 And there, he points out in the very beginning of the book, this 103 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,400 evolution of Brands, going from how we, how we relate to them. 104 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,300 As those nameless faceless entities that maybe are 105 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:12,700 represented like a signature or in sort of like a graphic Motif. 106 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,600 Now we're expecting something more more human and Humane, but 107 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,100 before all of that, we also expected something more more 108 00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:22,200 human. So many Brands grew out of the 109 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,800 interpersonal. Animal relationship. 110 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,100 You established a brand your sense of it, based on your 111 00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:30,200 relationship, maybe with the cobbler to whom you brought your 112 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,600 shoes or the fruit seller or the Taylor that you always used you 113 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,600 could associate them with things like BB quality or delivery or 114 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,700 consistency of product or innovation. 115 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:45,500 Those are the same kinds of principles that Brands try to 116 00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:49,700 evoke now maybe it's about being Scrappy and creative or maybe 117 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:52,700 about being resilient and responsible and long. 118 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:55,700 Lasting and established, whatever those different 119 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:58,300 qualities are. As they develop kind of a 120 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:00,800 message architecture to guide branding. 121 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:04,400 It's really the thing that I think has evolved is just the 122 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,100 outward face of the brand, our goals on establishing those 123 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:12,800 principles and communicating them clearly and consistently. 124 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,700 I don't think those goals have changed, but now we have more 125 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:19,700 channels through which to communicate so certainly more 126 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:21,500 areas in which we need to be consistent. 127 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,400 Whether it's on Twitter or Or Pinterest or Tick-Tock or in 128 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,900 print or ever. And I think along with that now 129 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:32,000 there is more of an expectation from consumers to have an 130 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,800 immediate response from the brands with which they interact 131 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,100 understanding from those brands that they're going to get a more 132 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:41,300 tailored specific relevant experience. 133 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:45,100 And I think it's in that expectation of relevance rather 134 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:49,500 than a generic interaction that brand see the benefit in 135 00:07:49,508 --> 00:07:52,700 becoming more personal in signing off with somebody. 136 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:55,600 Name on the last week that you get from them that type of 137 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,600 thing, right? It's interesting in our world 138 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,400 today, that successful business interactions are really 139 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,000 successful human interactions. Yes. 140 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,200 And kind of our conversation, you know, we start off with 141 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,000 Brands. It's a set list of feature sets 142 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,500 and benefits that we talked about kind of quality, we can 143 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:15,400 provide these spaces but now we've evolved in that our 144 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,800 expectations with those interactions as you mentioned, 145 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,200 listening to your words and describing it, I love it, your 146 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,100 words became more human. As you talked about the But what 147 00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:26,700 people expect with the credibility that we expect the 148 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:30,500 brand as the extension of, as the company of the product to 149 00:08:30,500 --> 00:08:33,400 almost behave as though we're interacting with another person. 150 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:35,700 Yeah. And I think that now is a great 151 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:39,700 time for organizations to lean into that idea of what it means 152 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:43,400 to be more human to, to present the human face of an 153 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,600 organization, whether it's by naming and introducing more 154 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,400 people on their website and crediting more people more 155 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,400 individuals with The different products and and content that is 156 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,600 presented on their site, whether it's in blog posts or are 157 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,200 talking about, who was the team that worked on the latest 158 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,400 product, who was the lead engineer, who's the lead 159 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,900 animator, all those types of things or by simply letting that 160 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:10,200 that human side that is not Flawless. 161 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,200 But has flaws and foibles letting that Human Side lead 162 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,500 because I think that's where we're able to establish trust 163 00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:20,900 through vulnerability that corporations don't always have 164 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:22,500 corporations. Don't always want to be 165 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:24,300 vulnerable. Honorable they want to fling out 166 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:28,300 that kind of false bravado but when people talk, we can talk 167 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:32,100 about our own personal Evolution and learning processes and what 168 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:34,200 not. But let's talk a bit more about 169 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,900 that vulnerability as it relates to expectations because we think 170 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:41,500 about it and you mentioned this in your book at the end that our 171 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:44,900 brand relationships are really a kind of agreement between us in 172 00:09:44,908 --> 00:09:48,200 the brand, but I wonder in today's world in which we have 173 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,600 these agreements, but the world above us around us and beneath 174 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,600 our feet are always So there's that change the term of the 175 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,300 agreement and where Brands may think that they have a great 176 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,300 relationship but the world changes, how do Brands respond 177 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:02,500 to that change in expectation of agreement? 178 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:06,100 I think we have to interrogate. What is that agreement about? 179 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:10,700 What are we agreeing to is it that we're as consumers or as 180 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:14,200 designers engaging with consumers representing a brand? 181 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,700 Are we promising them Perfection where we promising them that we 182 00:10:18,708 --> 00:10:20,900 will always get things right out of the gate. 183 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:23,800 Our product roadmap is going to anticipate So Pate your every 184 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,800 need and we're going to constantly anticipate economic 185 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,500 conditions that influence those needs. 186 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:31,400 Because if that's what your company is promising, I think 187 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,000 you need to find a new company because that is untenable and 188 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,700 Fantastical. But I think if we instead say 189 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:41,800 well what our consumers, expect and what we can promise is 190 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,400 something more of an asymptote toward Perfection that we are 191 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,800 constantly making steps to improve to reward Improvement. 192 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,400 We're a learning organization. What we rolled out was pretty 193 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,900 good, but we're going to keep getting it better that I think 194 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:01,400 demonstrates respect. That's I think the agreement 195 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,800 that we have with our audiences that we're not going to abandon 196 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,600 products. We're not going to roll out a 197 00:11:06,608 --> 00:11:09,600 Blog only to no longer have an editorial calendar. 198 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,500 That can support it in six months. 199 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:15,500 We're not going to launch new products or benefits and abandon 200 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:19,200 our Legacy audience. I think that speaks more to to 201 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,800 respect and I think it also speaks to a kind Of evolution 202 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,700 and vulnerability. That is manageable any 203 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:31,300 organization that promises too much Perfection, that leads with 204 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:34,100 bravado is going to fall on its face. 205 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,100 So it's interesting. You say that I think about some 206 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:41,000 of the big Classic Brands that have built themselves into that 207 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,900 corner, you know? So how do you as Legacy brand 208 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:46,200 and what we won't name the guilty for our conversation 209 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,900 today? But as a legacy brand in the 210 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,400 world is dynamically changing. What advice do you have for 211 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,300 free? Also working on a legacy brand, 212 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,600 you know, which is often, I've had friends and colleagues. 213 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,000 When you work on a really successful Legacy brand, one of 214 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,200 the biggest challenge you have, is that immediate history of 215 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,900 success history of success or maybe history of things you 216 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,500 need. You now feel like you need to 217 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:11,500 deny and say that was never something with which we want to 218 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:13,100 be Associated. Come on. 219 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,600 So I think we see both things going on. 220 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,500 I think in any organization that has that long history you've got 221 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,900 a lot of baggage to bring on but I think there's always That 222 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:26,500 opportunity to say you thought you knew us then and you like 223 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:28,100 this or maybe you didn't like us. 224 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:32,100 Well, watch what's coming next? And I would say that any 225 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:35,800 organization that is so enamored with their history that they are 226 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,700 calcified and refused to move Beyond. 227 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:40,900 It is not going to continue to enjoy success. 228 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:44,500 I think it's the organizations whether it's a startup that it's 229 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:49,300 continuing that it has invested in learning from its broad 230 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:51,700 audience. Not just being so in love with 231 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:54,800 the ideas of it. Investors or the ideas of its 232 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,300 CEO. I think any organization that is 233 00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:03,000 committing to to learn from its audience and whether they are a 234 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,700 start-up or an organization with a 100-year history can continue 235 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:12,000 to evolve and that's what our customers TR4, that's what they 236 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,900 champy. And they want to see us evolve 237 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,200 with the times whether it's rolling out new products or 238 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,800 putting a new stake in the ground around, social issues, 239 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,700 that demonstrates an organization's Connection and 240 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:26,500 evolution. So we talk about what's on the 241 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,800 other side. Being trust, one of the things 242 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,600 that that emerges is the notion of communities that are based in 243 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,200 driven by trust that fall into the brand that create kind of a 244 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,000 loyalty loop with this Basin are. 245 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,100 How can Brands today Foster these deeper Community 246 00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:44,800 connections? I think, for a brand to be 247 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,600 relevant, you need to be where your audience is. 248 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,700 And I think that's something that anybody in user research 249 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:53,700 knows. And I think that's something 250 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:56,700 that anybody in designed knows, if you're if you're making 251 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:58,800 different visual references through your work, you want to 252 00:13:58,808 --> 00:14:02,600 be calling on things that will be relevant to your audience. 253 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,200 And I think when it comes to how Brands engage in community 254 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:11,300 around different, social issues, the same thing and I mean, 255 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:14,500 granted for a long time. There's been that perspective in 256 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,200 business that business should stay out of politics, but we 257 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,300 know that stance is a mark of privilege. 258 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:25,300 It's saying I'm above of these issues that may be affecting my 259 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:29,100 customers. And itself is a political 260 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:33,400 statement in itself is so more and more we've seen and I mean, 261 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,700 the Edelman trust survey proves this out. 262 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:39,600 A lot of other surveys have proven this out more and more 263 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:43,800 customers are saying that they do want to know the political, 264 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,700 viewpoints the Investments, the perspectives of the c.e.o. of 265 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,500 the organizations that they are choosing to support through. 266 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,600 Through their purchases, through their spending habits. 267 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,200 And I think for any kind of brand to engage in an authentic 268 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,100 way where they're not just their customers. 269 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,400 But with their Community, if they're using that word, that 270 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,900 means going to and learning about and getting involved with 271 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:13,200 sponsoring things investing in the issues that are important to 272 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,300 your audience. And yeah, that may alienate some 273 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:18,400 customers. One of the examples that I share 274 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,000 in trustworthy is from pens, he's the the spice Merchants 275 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,600 based in the Midwest, I think they've got stores in many 276 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,800 metros now. Certainly around the u.s. and 277 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,500 how when they've made their politics known. 278 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:33,200 Yeah, they do alienate some customers, they get some 279 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,700 strongly worded emails but year over year, since they've been 280 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:42,100 doing that, their sales have increased 50% year-over-year, 281 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,800 and that's because they've been able to expand Their audience. 282 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,400 When you make your politics, know when you make your values 283 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,700 visible. That's how your audience finds 284 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:50,900 you. It can be through design 285 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:53,400 choices. It can be through the Content, 286 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,900 you and stories you tell on your site and what you emphasize it 287 00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,100 can be making those those donations, those politics 288 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,000 explicit as well. So I think there are many ways 289 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,400 there for organizations to enrich the interaction with 290 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,000 their communities. In an authentic way, you know 291 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,200 you made this comment a couple times you mention the word 292 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,300 design choices. So we're going to Pivot on that 293 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:20,600 and go deep into come the world of a designer and one of the 294 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,300 chapters in the book, I love you. 295 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:25,800 Look at The tension between Fidelity of information and 296 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,600 abstraction, and the space in which designers have tons of 297 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,500 information in front of them. All the complexity we have in 298 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:37,800 the world and our task with the opportunity and the 299 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,800 responsibility of turning that into something meaningful, to 300 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,500 build a relationship talk a bit about that challenge of having 301 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,500 all of the information and figuring out how to present it 302 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:51,000 in a way that actually credible in builds a relationship and 303 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Trust. Oh, those are Two distinct 304 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,800 issues. Making the presentation of 305 00:16:55,808 --> 00:16:59,100 information or maybe we could say the information that you 306 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,000 derived from the data if you want to call up that data 307 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,400 information knowledge, wisdom, Continuum making it credible and 308 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,099 faithful to the original data or content and also making it 309 00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:14,000 trustworthy and useful and usable. 310 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,599 I think those are distinct issues. 311 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:19,500 One of my favorite examples for this is looking at the world of 312 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,500 exhibit design because I think this is really the task. 313 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:28,800 That exhibit curators designers what they face as far as how to 314 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:34,200 tell a credible and Youthful story, looking at the objects 315 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,100 that they acquire or have on loan from other museums. 316 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,000 And I think being able to tell a credible story starts with 317 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,400 looking at the information that you have the data on which you 318 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,500 can draw disabled, what is the point of all this? 319 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:50,500 There's a lot of it and I'm not going to expect my audience if 320 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,200 it's in the case of a museum exhibit where Dealing with a 321 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,700 moving audience, maybe different age levels, and different 322 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:58,200 heights. Maybe you've got like little 323 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,200 kids as well as adults. You've got some information 324 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000 screened on the wall. As captions other things that 325 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,300 are in display cases. Maybe big painting smaller 326 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,500 sculptures and that people moving around it. 327 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,300 Well, you can play with different aspects of curation 328 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,000 that are really kind of playing with the idea of curation as 329 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,300 creation. Are you creating new meaning 330 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:22,500 from the content that you have through? 331 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,200 Juxtaposition and Arrangement, and what you decide to include 332 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,700 vs. Exclude, what's big and 333 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,900 prominent and in the center of a room or for that matter has a 334 00:18:31,908 --> 00:18:34,400 lot of white space around it on a web page. 335 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:38,300 What deserves the caption with with detailed alt text and what 336 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:41,700 maybe gets omitted. How do you decide what to 337 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:45,100 emphasize in that? That helps create a new story 338 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:49,400 and I think that's how exhibit designers create new knowledge 339 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:52,200 by bringing people through a space. 340 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:57,100 And helping them absorb new information from what they have 341 00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:00,300 decided to include versus exclude what they've decided to 342 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,800 emphasize. I think that's also how 343 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,200 designers responsibly create new meaning. 344 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,200 When you're looking at, maybe the variety of content types, 345 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,600 you have what shows up in high contrast and what you allow to 346 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,400 kind of Fade Into the background figuratively. 347 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,900 Or literally did your room font choice and color scheme. 348 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,800 And what not? And I think, Those choices 349 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,900 around how we decide, what deserves big storytelling, how 350 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:32,200 we decide what deserves to be featured, what we choose to 351 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,100 emphasize, and what we D emphasize, that gets back to the 352 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:40,400 idea of credibility, are we making our stories credible? 353 00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,700 And then are we making them useful in the service of 354 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,400 creating? It may be empowering a more 355 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,300 confident audience that can make better decisions based on 356 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:54,600 whatever they're trying to do. In interacting with a website or 357 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,000 in picking up a piece of print collateral, are we helping them 358 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,900 answer questions and self-educate that's really the 359 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:05,400 opportunity that designers have as storytellers as creators of 360 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,800 new knowledge. I was going to ask you, what 361 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,600 role did you see today of the power of Storytelling as it 362 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,300 relates to building trust? And we talked a lot about 363 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:18,900 creating stories, but the role of Storytelling in taking it one 364 00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:22,800 step further to establish trust, I think when we throw a Around 365 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,700 that terb storytelling especially in marketing and 366 00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:28,400 content circles up a lot. I think it's up there with 367 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,800 transparency and empathy and everybody's like, well, it is 368 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,300 empathy and nobody really knows anymore. 369 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,600 How much is it just compassion that we're serving up and maybe 370 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,200 that's enough to, but going back to the idea of Storytelling, we 371 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,800 throw that term around a lot and I think when we unpack the value 372 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,500 of telling stories Beyond just, hey anecdotes maybe do establish 373 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,900 a little bit of empathy or they say Oh you had that experience? 374 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,600 I did too. So we must share something in 375 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,500 common and maybe I can trust that about you because we have 376 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:04,600 that common experience. I think what story and 377 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,400 storytelling also allows us is the ability to sprinkle in 378 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,200 details that make an experience or makeup product or an idea or 379 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,600 a service more plausible so that we can say, I do believe what 380 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,800 you're serving up whether it's a political candidate in which I 381 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,400 should believe. Leave or an idea in which I 382 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,200 could believe or a product that you're saying, would be just 383 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,800 right for me. Well, well, tell me why what are 384 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,700 the, what are the things about me? 385 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,100 That you might know that you could sprinkle in that feel 386 00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:38,000 relevant? That feel relatable. 387 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:41,100 And I think that's what storytelling allows us to do. 388 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:45,600 Put something in context, in a context, that more people can 389 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,800 understand. How do you think that this 390 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,400 understanding can Empower this next generation of designers, 391 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,800 He's working on next generation problems. 392 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,500 I guess I know I was just kind of maligning it but maybe this 393 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,900 is where empathy comes in because I think as we look at 394 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:07,900 the evolution of design over the past say 100 some years. 395 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:12,700 So if we start out kind of pre Bauhaus and look at design 396 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:18,500 around Brands and designing products to support human usage 397 00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:22,000 in human experience. A lot of the thinking in there, 398 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,200 a lot of the Choices in there, have been driven by genius, 399 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,900 designers, genius, companies companies, the had a great idea 400 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:34,300 that they wanted to put out into the world or an individual 401 00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:37,100 designer that wanted to put something out into the world or 402 00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:40,100 a brand that wanted to look a certain way or say something 403 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:42,800 different. And I think those choices 404 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,600 sometimes have been great but they haven't always addressed. 405 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,200 The most pressing problems, may be the most common problems of 406 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,100 their audiences. Not to say that we don't need 407 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,000 some of those things or look back and say, wasn't that great. 408 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,600 Didn't that look great? Let's, let's all applaud for 409 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,800 that signage, or that poster toaster. 410 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,400 I think that the coming generation of designers has more 411 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,400 of an opportunity to engage with compassion and maybe this is 412 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,900 where we distinguish between compassion and empathy and 413 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,200 empathy says, I can relate to your needs because I have those 414 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,600 needs to we've learned by really Interrogating representation and 415 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,100 design and saying like hey you know, if we're making a product 416 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:29,500 that needs to meet the needs of everyone, maybe we need people 417 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,000 on the team that look more like everyone that have more of an 418 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,000 age range that represents everyone. 419 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:38,200 So maybe we say that, you don't need empathy. 420 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,000 But God sure, we always engage in with compassion that says, I 421 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,900 can relate to you, not because I share your experiences, but 422 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,700 rather I can relate to you because you're a fellow human, 423 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,400 that deserves my respect. So I think it's bringing 424 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,100 Continuing to have in bringing respect for our audiences and 425 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,500 engaging with the full breadth of our audiences Thinking, 426 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:03,800 Beyond ourselves and thinking, there's going to be people using 427 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,300 this that are not like me but I can still work toward meeting 428 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,200 their needs. I think it's engaging in that 429 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,100 way. That's really the opportunity 430 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:15,400 for design moving forward. Really the call to action for 431 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,000 design. And yes, a powerful way to think 432 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,800 about it. I have a question for you 433 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,000 though. Is there hope for Brands? 434 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,600 Who don't Get it right? Is there space after brands that 435 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,200 may make missteps or struggle with this transition? 436 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,700 What advice would you have for Brands to get at it again? 437 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,800 I'm an optimist, I know that is true because I wear contact 438 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,100 lenses, but and I've worn glasses for more than 30 years 439 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,200 and every time I fall asleep with my contact lenses, and when 440 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,900 I wake up the next day, my first thought is not, I forgot to take 441 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:53,300 out my contacts, but rather my vision must have Miraculously 442 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:58,100 repaired while I slept. So I'm an optimist and I do 443 00:24:58,100 --> 00:25:02,200 believe there is always an opportunity for not necessarily 444 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,700 reinvention but certainly for repair and repentance and 445 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,100 evolution. And I think that idea of 446 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:12,800 repentance through acknowledging what you did wrong 447 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,000 acknowledging, how you could have been better and how you're 448 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,500 not going to make that mistake again and then Evolution 449 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,800 actively changing. I think there is Always an 450 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,300 opportunity for that with smart organizations. 451 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:29,200 And I think one of the ways that organizations build trust is by 452 00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:33,500 how they come back from a mistake, whether it was the CEO 453 00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:37,100 did something incredibly boneheaded or maybe the 454 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:41,300 organization has been caught in a lie or caught in a scandal or 455 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,300 just they didn't plan appropriately for the needs of 456 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:47,400 their audiences. One of the, my favorite examples 457 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,300 in the book comes from Ted, the wonderful video platform. 458 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:55,900 The many of us Way too much time watching it's when they faced an 459 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,200 issue. A few years ago where some of 460 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,000 their most popular videos they realized contained, faulty 461 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,200 content, faulty ideas, spurious content, maybe they were ideas 462 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,100 that have been disproven by other people in the scientific 463 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,600 Community or they were popular videos that were great when they 464 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,200 came out, but the science that they featured had evolved, and 465 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,100 they were no longer accurate. They were still getting a lot. 466 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:21,000 A lot of traffic. The problem was folks in the 467 00:26:21,008 --> 00:26:24,000 scientific community. Were pointed fingers at Ted and 468 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,400 saying this is great, it's popular but it's junk, it's junk 469 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,000 science. What are they going to do about 470 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,600 it? These people are idiots to still 471 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,400 have it up there and their brand was really taking a hit and they 472 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,400 could have looked the other way. They could have quietly taken 473 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,400 those videos off the site. They could have any confronted 474 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,900 people publicly and said, look, you know, we're not some sort of 475 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:46,400 like Clearinghouse for scientific research. 476 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,900 Yeah, some things may be wrong but it's not our problem. 477 00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:52,300 Many organizations would take them not our problem. 478 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:58,500 Of approach and instead they leaned into basically their 479 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:01,800 mistakes and they said, yeah, this is a problem. 480 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,300 They convened, a group of some of their harshest critics to 481 00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,200 say, what do you recommend? What do you what do you think 482 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,300 about this? What do you think the big risks 483 00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:11,500 are? What are some different ways 484 00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:15,000 that we could approach it? And by engaging in that process 485 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,700 of prototyping in public, may be engaging in some code design, 486 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,300 there to solicit ideas and take them in turn. 487 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,700 Colonel and evolve. They ended up bringing some new 488 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,100 content types into their CMS and then onto the front end of their 489 00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:33,600 site that offer disclaimers, some that would redirect people 490 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:38,400 or give them the opportunity to redirect to a more updated video 491 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,600 or more up-to-date video on the same topic if the science had 492 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,700 evolved. So they offered those different 493 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:47,400 content types and showed how they were willing to accept 494 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,600 criticism continue to evolve to prototype in public, and the 495 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,900 process of doing That helped change some of their harshest 496 00:27:54,900 --> 00:27:57,900 critics than into some of their strongest Champions. 497 00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:01,100 I think we see this at a lot of organizations when they're 498 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:05,200 willing to evolve, when they're willing to First, say we messed 499 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,000 up, let's explain what happened. Let's respect our audience so 500 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,600 much. We're going to tell them why 501 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,500 this happened and what we're going to do about it. 502 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,600 And then we're going to commit to doing those things. 503 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,300 We see how those organizations can evolve mature and come out 504 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,200 on top. With an even stronger support 505 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,100 from Their audience is. We think about kind of the 506 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:31,400 evolutions of brand, simple question, but defining one, how 507 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,600 would you define a brand today in 2022? 508 00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,400 How would you define a brand? I think it's the reflection of 509 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,200 an organization that lives in the hearts and minds of its 510 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,200 audience. It is that reflection though, 511 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,900 that that mirror image and sometimes mirrors are distorted 512 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:51,000 their distorted by, you know, the weather or damage that 513 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,300 they've suffered or just other. Things around them so that 514 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:57,900 reflection is not always what you'd like to see and it lives 515 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,300 in the hearts and minds of your audience, not necessarily your 516 00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:06,500 target audience, not just them, but everyone around them to 517 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:09,400 maybe a much broader group than you realize, I think the 518 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,700 opportunity for Brands and I use the term broadly to mean 519 00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:17,900 organizations that are b2c big retailers. 520 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:21,300 Small companies, governmental entities institutions. 521 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,500 I think the Opportunity is to address. 522 00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:28,400 The problem of cynicism, the loss of confidence that your 523 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,300 audience is suffering. Maybe not just an interactions 524 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:34,800 with you, but in all of their experiences right now in the 525 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,800 world and to step into that void and work to bolster their 526 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,000 confidence, to help them feel like they can engage in a more 527 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,000 Savvy way with the world, around them to evaluate sources of 528 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,500 information, and determine high-quality sources of 529 00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:54,200 information. So that they can self educate 530 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,800 and become that much smarter. Because if we can help rebuild 531 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,300 their sense of confidence in themselves, we also gained their 532 00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:05,400 sense of confidence in the organizations that we represent 533 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,800 and that's how we regain their sense of trust. 534 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000 And I say that it's an opportunity for Brands to step 535 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,700 into that void because over the past several years, people have 536 00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:20,800 grown more and more cynical because we've seen hypocrisy and 537 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,800 deceit in Al's of government and for organizations that we 538 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,700 thought we knew and we've seen little to no repercussions for 539 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,600 that, kind of Deceit and people have turned away from those 540 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,000 institutions. Maybe it was the paper of record 541 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,300 or organization that they grew up knowing or government itself. 542 00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:42,300 They turned away from those institutions. 543 00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:45,700 They've turned more inward to say, you know what looks right, 544 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,200 but seems right probably is what is right? 545 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,500 And they've grown more and more cynical but I think we can So 546 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:57,100 tap into their sense of hope because people still do believe 547 00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:00,300 that if they scroll a little bit further, go a little bit further 548 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:04,100 down that YouTube Hulk they can be a little bit smarter, a 549 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:07,000 little bit better, maybe a little bit more well organized 550 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,800 we can tap into that sense of hope and possibility because 551 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:13,600 cynics look the world as it is and say that it is worse 552 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,200 designers and writers. We are we are Builders of Brands 553 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,700 and brainstorms and we look at the world as it is and say say 554 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,300 it can be better and I think any organization can help rebuild 555 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:29,900 that sense of trust and confidence so that it will be 556 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:33,600 better. I love your point here in. 557 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:36,000 There's one of your chapters that you open up with just the 558 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,400 simple statement that cynicism is cheek and hope takes work and 559 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,100 kind of this build an investment. 560 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,200 I also read for speaking something that struck me that I 561 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,600 think is really powerful to put a point on is that no one 562 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,200 experiences, your brand by itself that your brand is in, 563 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Context with the world around you. 564 00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:57,800 And if there's a relationship or a crisis and trust that your 565 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200 audience, your consumers, having it can be reflected off of your 566 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,900 brand. It can be what they're having 567 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:06,000 with the brand next to them, which were part of that context 568 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,900 and understanding, you know, the power and the responsibility 569 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,300 that you have in that space, you know, we talked a bit about 570 00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,800 designers roles and leaders and brand builders and creators. 571 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:21,500 There's a bit of agency whether articulated are not that we 572 00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:24,300 have. In taking Our Brands and our 573 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:27,100 organizations forward with trust in the book. 574 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,400 I know you had a couple examples where you talk about designers 575 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,000 being able to navigate things like complexity and anxiety, and 576 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,200 spaces, using the tools of our profession and trade in these 577 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,500 very meaningful, direct ways to create new opportunities for 578 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:42,800 trust. Yeah. 579 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,700 And I think to your point that our work exists in a bigger 580 00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:50,700 context, I think that can be a daunting thing, but I think it's 581 00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:54,200 also thing that should give us. A sense of possibility. 582 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,000 It means that no one's job is irrelevant. 583 00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:02,800 Whether you are the junior copywriter or the design, 584 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,900 intern, or the creative director, or chief creative 585 00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:11,300 officer, or anyone in between, and regardless of your industry, 586 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:13,000 as well. I know, I spoke with a lot of 587 00:33:13,008 --> 00:33:16,000 friends, over the course of the past couple of years that were 588 00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:18,000 kind of in different points of Despair. 589 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,800 Basically saying, you know, I don't work as a designer in 590 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,400 healthcare, or For the CDC. How much does my work really 591 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,900 even matter? This point and I wanted to say, 592 00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:31,100 to all of them and maybe that's what I was saying with with 593 00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:34,700 trustworthy to all of them. Yeah, it does matter. 594 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,400 It matters a whole lot because if it's in the interactions with 595 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,700 your product or your small part of the website, that someone 596 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:47,000 feels a little bit, smarter more confident, more like, I know 597 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,900 exactly what I need to do so that I can feel safe moving 598 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,200 through this experience or making this decision. 599 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600 And then that's a feeling that they can take into all other 600 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,800 parts of their lives. That's a feeling that they can 601 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,500 take to other moments in their day. 602 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,700 And I think that's an incredible thing. 603 00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:05,700 I think that is the, that's the thing that we owe our users that 604 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,600 sense of empowerment and it can come through better 605 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,300 instructional, copy more anticipatory pop-ups that meet 606 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:16,800 their needs without being annoying or without distracting 607 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,800 them from purpose. It can be through information in 608 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,900 diagrams that Allow them to feel more accomplished, more able to 609 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:27,900 meet their own. Needs more oriented towards self 610 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,300 service. And I think if you can do that, 611 00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:34,600 if you can clarify information, rather than obfuscating things, 612 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,000 if you could help people move through a complex decision by 613 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,600 streamlining, some of that information. 614 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,900 We're talking about like abstracting information a little 615 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:45,199 bit before and making decisions around what to emphasize and 616 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,900 what is not quite so important. I think if you can do that it's 617 00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:52,000 a service that helps people bring that sense of confidence. 618 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:56,600 It's into may be all the more high pressure parts of their day 619 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,500 as well. These are really incredible way 620 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:02,200 to think about where we are in this moment where we are sir, 621 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,700 profession that hope takes work and there's lots of work for us 622 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:10,200 to do. And yes, it's been such a 623 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,000 pleasure Margo to spend at looking at can't believe our 624 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,200 time has flown by but it's such a pleasure to watch your 625 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,100 exploration and the care and research that you went into 626 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:24,200 thinking about this intersection of Of the future of brand of 627 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,400 Hope, trust and design. And I encourage everyone to add 628 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,200 trustworthy. How the smartest Brands beat 629 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,700 cynicism and build the trust Gap to the reading list, for those 630 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:37,700 who are designers who are leaders who creative thinkers 631 00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:40,700 Margo's done an incredible job of pulling together and really 632 00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:43,800 putting a focus on what our challenges and opportunities are 633 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,100 for tomorrow. So Margo I thank you as a 634 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:51,100 strategist. As a Content leader as a trust 635 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:54,200 advocate. And as a design advocate for 636 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,300 joining us today for this episode of design adjacent, 637 00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:59,300 thank you. Thank you so much. 638 00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:02,700 This is a lot of fun and I thank you all for joining us for a 639 00:36:02,708 --> 00:36:06,200 design adjacent. Check us next time when we look 640 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,200 at the intersection of design both today. 641 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,800 And tomorrow, I'm your host, Ben EF Johnson. 642 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:14,700 Thank you show notes for this. Episode will be available on AIG 643 00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:17,600 a.org. Please subscribe to our show on 644 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,000 anchor Apple, podcasts, Google play Spotify or wherever you get 645 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,200 your Podcasts aiga is designed adjacent podcasts and its 646 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,500 contents. Are the copyright of aiga the 647 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,900 professional association for design All Rights Reserved, any 648 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:37,600 redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents 649 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,300 in any form is prohibited without aig's Express written 650 00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:44,600 permission. My name is Li Xian zhuang until 651 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:45,100 next time.