I was standing in line for the MoMA and in front of me there
was a group of about three women.
And they were discussing an article that they read in a
culture magazine where they said they read about this lady that
was teaching organizations how to work more inspired by the the
female egg and how they can combine both the female and the
masculine energies into a workspace.
And I thought to myself, wow, that sounds so super
fascinating. And I kind of eavesdrop and
listen more to what they're saying.
And as they were giving more details about the article, I
realized that they were talking about me.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the AIGA
Design Podcast. My name is Li Shan Huang Co,
Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the
Professional association for Design.
And I am Julia Donatello, Design competitions and events manager
at AIG. This season of the show we are
exloring the theme of Eyes on Design, inspired by the ION
Design publication. We are looking at design through
these three eyes of the connecting eye.
How design connects and interfaces with other fields and
disciplines. The critical eye.
Reflecting upon ourselves, what we do as designers, what we make
as designers, and the future eye, looking forward and looking
at how we shape the future as designers.
Our guest today, we are really happy to welcome back Reenat
Scherzer. She was actually on the show
back in 2020 before the whole world shut down, so it's great
to catch up with her. Reenat is a biotech engineer,
transdisciplinary designer, and artists whose work sits at the
intersection of science, technology, and social justice.
She's the founder of the Creative Lab, a social
innovation design lab whose clients have included Capital
One, Pfizer and the Swiss government.
She's an adjunct professor at Parsons School of Design in New
York, and her Ted X talk, The Bloody Taboo with Power to
Change the World, has reached audiences around the world.
She was selected by the UN to speak at the UN Women's Summit
for International Women's Day. Real Leaders magazine named her
one of the Top 40 Women Keynote speakers of 2020 and she is
currently APHD candidate at RMIT in Melbourne.
Researching hope through multi sensory design and Co design.
Her latest project at the Rebirth of Hope is a neuroart
project combining science, embodied experiments, embodied
experience and participatory making.
She's also the solo mom to an almost three-year old son Luca.
Welcome back. Hi, so nice to be here.
Thank you for having me. We're so glad to have you back
at the show and we've researched about your previous experiences
and we know that your title is very long so far.
For our listeners who are meeting you for the first time,
can you share a little bit? How do you describe what you do?
Yeah, it's always funny to to try and describe what I do.
I have an. Yeah, it's to share a memory
with and I know maybe 3 birthdays ago my dad wished for
my birthday that he will know what I do for a living.
That's so funny so. So, so you're not alone, but I
think if, if you're hard to kind of say it in one sentence, I my
goal or what I'm most passionate about is shifting broken social
paradigms. And the way that I go about it
is really, really open. There's always a component of
design. There's always a component of
science and a component of technology.
But how I use it and the methodologies, the the, the
tools, the yeah, the, the construct of it shifts according
to the theme, but it's always around a social issue that I'm
really passionate about shifting.
Awesome, awesome. And you brought, you mentioned
science, we know that you started as a biotechnology
engineer, a very unexpected beginning of a story for what?
For what you're doing right now. So can you share a little bit of
how scientific training actually leaves in the design practice
that you have today? And what did it give that the
design of a traditional design education wouldn't have given to
you? Yeah, that's such a good
question. So I think for the longest time
I went about life not understanding why I'm doing what
I'm doing. So I studied biotechnology
engineering, then went into the tech world, then shifted to
design for social innovation. And I think really for, I don't
know, maybe almost 2 decades, I didn't understand how the the
plot was unfolding. And I think Steve Jobs said that
at one point that, you know, dots can only be connected in
hindsight. So, and then when I started kind
of my finding my path or my unique voice within the, the
field of social innovation, I understood that I always go back
to science, I always go back to nature.
I always go back to how our bodies operate and kind of the,
the, whether it's a specific organ within our body or how
different, I don't know, neurotransmitters work or how
our reproductive system works. But I always find something that
really fascinates me and then use it as kind of the, the
foundation or the cornerstone of whatever I'm trying to, to work
towards. Very cool.
So as I mentioned in the intro, Reena, you were one of our last
guests when we used to record this podcast, when it was just
me as the host and we recorded in a physical recording studio
in New York City. I think you were on the show in
March of 2020, so just before New York City and the whole
world shut down for the COVID pandemic.
Just as a call back to what we talked about in that episode, we
talked about bio mimicry, the power of the egg, gender
equality, de shaming, the menstrual cycle.
And I know you've done a lot of stuff in the last six years
since then. It's a lot of time you've
enrolled in a PhD program, you're continuing to teach.
So can you give us maybe a brief update and we can follow up on
anything as well? Yeah, sure.
So, yeah, it was, it was such a pivotal time when we met.
So it was, I don't know if it was March, I don't know what was
it third or something like that. And beginning of March 8th, I
don't know something, something in the beginning.
And there was some really high plans for the project.
What would, what would the egg do?
And I'll just give a short recap.
It was based on a Ted X talk that I gave where I kind of
looked at the menstrual cycle as as a model for maybe solving or
tackling complex challenges and look at the four phases of the
cycle as an inspiration of how we can go about problem solving.
And I think maybe it's a good time to kind of describe why I
chose that path to, to talk about gender equality or
inequality. So I think there's the the main
voices or the the vocal voices around gender equality and
inequality were around how can we make women more like men?
How can we have a seat at the table?
And what was really interesting to me was what are the, you
know, unique, special, fantastic qualities that we bring as women
that are different from men and that are essential.
And I think the the theme of gender equality is so charged
and loaded that I wanted to take a stance that would kind of
lower the the entry barrier into this field for people who are
very adverse to it. So I looked at into science as a
as kind of my teacher and what I kind of thought of back then or
still think, but that what led me is that we live in a very
high testosterone driven society and in order to create life, we
need both the the egg and the sperm.
So how can we combine both of those?
So that was back then. I was just a couple days before
giving a speech at the UN at the Women's International Day, and
it was such an exciting time with an exhibition that was
supposed to open up and a book that I was supposed to to start
working on. And then the pandemic hit and
everything shifted and I think we were kind of all called to go
back and go inwards and be more like eggs for a while and not
rush constantly. It was like Mother Nature was
telling us this is like, it is it's, it's not working.
And so I think it was like everybody was a super reflective
time. And the exhibition that was
planned did go live, but in AVR way, which was really
interesting to work with technology and to work with
people who are doing like cutting edge stuff in that
space, which would never have happened if the pandemic didn't
happen. And also, I think this
reflective time and and allowing ourselves to be more like the
egg, being more idle, allowing things to come to US-led into
many, many life changes. One of them was my decision to
bring Luca to the world. And so I think that was a huge
shift. And then starting the PhD and
all that, which we'll probably get into in a minute.
Awesome. So cool to learn more about your
about the what would the AG do project.
I'm curious to hear from you. So you just said that the, you
were launching the the project just before the pandemic hit.
How did it? And you mentioned that you had
the, the exhibition per SE had to be in AVR format in the end,
So a lot of technology involved. How did the the project end up
going after that? And what did you feel like you
learned from it that you couldn't have predicted?
Yeah, I think that's such a good question.
So I'll start maybe with a little anecdote about that
project, about what would the egg do.
In the TEDx talk that I gave at that time, I was standing in
line for the MoMA, and in front of me was a group of about three
women. I think it was three women and
they were discussing an article that they read in a culture
magazine where they said that they heard that they read about
this lady that was teaching organizations how to work more
inspired by the, the female egg and how they can combine both
the, the, the female and the masculine energies into a
workspace. And I thought to myself, wow,
that sounds so super fascinating.
And I kind of eavesdrop and listen more to what they're
saying. And as they were giving more
details about the article, I realized that they were talking
about me. Like I, I, I came after that and
I think I said, I think you're talking about me.
And they turned around and they recognized my face and we, we
ended up having such a funny conversation about that.
And so that is definitely something that I could never
have predicted that would have come out of this project.
But I think what I, what this story kind of tells me or, or
shows me is that, you know, this is many people, many creators
have said this before. But once we create something and
put it out to the world, it's no longer ours, right?
It, it has a life of its own and it has legs.
And we never know what the ripple effect of what we are
creating will have on, on others.
And so just to see, to have kind of like this moment where where
I was evident to that was really, really nice.
But it kind of made me think, you know, of course, we all want
to create something that will have impact, that will gain, you
know, traction that people will see, that people will have
thoughts on and, and do stuff with.
But what I didn't realize at that time was the power of of
time. So that I was sure that, you
know, I gave up this Ted talk and then the, the, the
exhibition didn't happen. And then it happened in VR and I
wanted kind of the results to be immediate and or hoped for the
results to be immediate, which is, you know, more like a like a
sperm than an egg. And I wanted to, you know, like
now here and now. And I think what for me was the
most unpredictable thing from this project is just, you know,
seeing the ripple effect of this project in in the, in the length
of time after two years, after three years, receiving an e-mail
from someone, I don't know, five years later, hearing how it
impacted them. And I think this is something
that is really important for us to the to remember as artists,
as designers, as creators, that results are not always
immediate. And it's not.
And yeah, the, the, the, the, whatever you're creating has
life after that, and it will unfold and add its own time.
So I think that was a big unpredictable thing.
Very cool. Wow.
So I want to Fast forward back to the present and what you're
working on now. So just to catch folks up,
you've since enrolled in a PhD program at RMIT specifically to
research design and hope. So I guess I have a two-part
question, which is 1 is like why hope?
And then to help us connect the dots between design and hope.
I don't think these words are often said together a lot.
You know, we often talk about design and behavior change or
design and systems design and accessibility experiences.
I think those are fairly common. But Design and Hope Together is
maybe less familiar to most people listening to this.
So yeah, I guess the the why and then help us connect the dots
please. Yeah, for sure.
Thank you. So when I enrolled, the PHDI was
highly pregnant. I was about 8 months pregnant
and I gave the title of my PhD something like extremely broad
purpose driven transdisciplinary design in times of turmoil.
So it was me kind of responding to the Poly crisis that we're
in. It was the the COVID and then
the war between Russia and Ukraine and all these leaders
with a lot of power rising up. And I was like, OK, I have to do
something that that creates a stance in that world.
But it was very broad in times of turmoil.
Fast forward, I gave birth to Luca and I was supposed to go
back to the PhD after four months of maternity leave.
Then after three months that he was born, I was visiting my
family in the South of Israel for the High holidays.
And at 6:30 in the morning, the siren went off, rushing us to
the shelter. And while we were in the
shelter, which was where my parents live, is about 20 miles
from where the everything happened.
So I was holding Lukas, scared for his life, hearing what is
happening outside. Really.
Yeah. Critical moment in life.
And I remember that, you know, this moment where I was like,
enough. This cannot continue.
If we want to exist, we need to coexist.
And I think my hope was born for look up to be able to play with
his Palestinian brothers and sisters when he grows up and
that they did not prepare me for all the things that unfolded in
the three years after that. But I think that birth of hope
was the fuel that kept me going through all of that.
And so I think this really, really sharp juxtaposition
between these two life changing events, one being the happiest,
the second being the most devastating, called me forward
to take a stance. And I'm not a, I'm not political
activist at all. And I wanted to take a stance in
a way that I could take a stance.
And so then this is a great segue into wide design.
And so as I said in the beginning, I think I'm each time
I'm called towards a social paradigm, a broken social
paradigm that I feel that I want to shift in some way or another.
And what I realized on that day was that hope is very different
from wishful thinking. So we often tangibly use hope as
wishful thinking, but hope is actually something so much
deeper. I'll, I'll take you in a, in a
moment through the history of hope, which is really, but it's
not wishful thinking. It's something that often arises
from deep, deep crisis. And it is something that calls
us into action and it calls us into action with a really deep
uncertainty of whether the what we desire for is going to happen
or not is going to come to fruition or not.
And we still need to operate within that uncertainty.
So I said, OK, uncertainty and it also hope requires a lot of
creativity. I'll get to that in a moment.
So uncertainty, creativity and social change, I think we've got
it all, all the ingredients of what I'm really passionate about
creating. And so I set to kind of research
what is hope and then once I get a better handle on on that
construct, then to try and ignite it and sustain it or
create experiences that ignite and sustain it.
So what is hope actually? Is it like a feeling?
It's a vibe? Is it a capacity?
Like how do you define it and and help us understand what hope
is in this definition? Yeah.
So when I started the PhD and I decided I'm going to kind of
hone in on hope, I try to understand what is it.
And I read many, many, many articles from different scholars
and I was really surprised. Actually, because I was sure
it's going to be something very positive, something that is very
uplifting. And the first thing that I kind
of was overwhelmed by was the amount of bad Rep that it had
throughout history. So so said that it was it was an
undesirable cause. Wait, I want to I want to read
it properly. So one second plateau defined
hope is an unreliable guide detached from reason and
intellect. And then Aristotle linked hope
with arrogance. And so this was very kind of
groundbreaking to me. I didn't even see that coming.
And I read more and more and more.
And so that really throughout history, it wasn't, it wasn't
related to as as a positive thing.
And it went for almost 2 1/2 millennials.
So even until modern psychology. So Nietzsche considered hope to
be the worst of all evils for prolonging suffering when hope
doesn't come to fruition. And Freud suggested that
sophistication and intellect should replace hope.
And so it is a sign of weakness. So this was really eye opening
for me. I didn't expect that.
And I know, you know, from my design skills, when I see
something that I don't expect or when I see contradictions from
something very positive, something very negative, there's
something to explore there. So the first thing that I did as
a designer, I mapped all the scholars in a timeline and I saw
something that I, I could not have seen otherwise.
I saw that it had this very negative connotation for over 2
1/2 millennials and then at one point in history everything
shifted. And so that point in history was
World War 2 and Victor Frank Frankel, who survived Auschwitz,
came out in 1946 and wrote the book The Man's Search for
Meaning. And this was the first time in
history. And what I'm saying now there's
a big disclaimer here. I did not go into theology when
I researched hope. I really wanted this drastic and
I didn't wanted to to get into one religious, one religion
versus the other. So this map was an agnostic map
on the the timeline or the history of hope.
And so Viktor Frankel, when he came out of Auschwitz, wrote the
book The Man Search for Meaning in 1946.
And he was the first to write that hope is a vital resource
for human survival. And after that started a huge
cascade of philosophers, psychologists, positive
psychologist, people from the nursing world, all relating to
hope as the thing that you need to strive for.
And how do we get more of that in our life?
It was only in 1963 that Robin Downey, who was a philosopher,
wrote this article called Hope, and he says that hope consists
of a desire for an outcome together with the belief that an
outcome is possible, though uncertain.
So this was the first time in 1963 that we actually got the
definition of what hope is. And if I go back to what is it?
Is it a vibe? Is it AI think it's a it's a
human construct as complex as being human.
So I wouldn't narrow it to a feeling or an emotion or a vibe.
I would just say that it really it's something that encompasses
throughout our lives. And I think another thing to, to
kind of really focus on is that in a lot of times, it does them
from something very, very harsh, from a very big crisis in one's
life. And so another note that I want
to share, which is really interesting.
The, the next big thing that happened to Hope was in 1991
when Richard Snyder, who was a positive psychologist, kind of
cracked what Hope was. And he really looked at it as a
cognitive construct that you need both agencies.
So the motivation, the inner motivation towards something and
the pathways and pathways is all about finding different ways
towards something, which is very much heavily leans on on
creativity. And so I think designers can be
amazing conduits for, for hope. And then in my research, I was,
I, I, I sat down with it and I realized two big things.
One is all the scholars that I look into talk about hope as
something that we already have. So they don't talk about how
does it arise in US? When does it arise in US?
And the second one is that they talk about it from a cognitive
perspective. So Richard Snyder really talked
about of like, what are the actions that you can take
physical actions, or I'm sorry, not physical cognitive actions
that you can take to problem solve in order to get to that
hope. And I think this was my next big
aha moment where I was, I was like, wait, what about how do
people when, when is it born? When is that hope born in
people? And how can we ignite it again
and again? And then how can we sustain it
in a way that's not only cognitive, that really captures
the whole embodied cognition, the whole the, all the senses,
the body and the wisdom of the body that it brings towards
sustaining it in our everyday. So not something that is only
head heavy, but something that involves the whole body.
Wow, very interesting. And I think as you were saying,
I was also thinking about like what does hope mean to me and
like what it how do I feel hope and how is that related or not
to to some type of like Mystic or religion aspect of my own
understanding of the world. So very interesting.
It's making me reflect on that. That's very cool.
Speaking about your PhD, you know that the the frame of the
method is multi sensory design and Co design.
So I'm I'm curious to hear more from you this sensory aspect of
doing in this work. Is it is it doing something that
language and visual communication can't do alone?
Do you believe that or, and also how, how do you feel like?
How are you presenting this multi sensory approach to the
world, to whoever you want to engage in the discourse on this
conversation? Yeah, I think that's a such a
beautiful question because I think there's such a vast
language that is non verbal beyond words and beyond only
sight. And because hope is kind of that
vast, vast construct that is really hard to unpack.
And at times it's also ineffable.
We don't have the the right words for it.
We don't even know what it means for us.
I wanted to turn to a language that is beyond words but is
really deeply connected to our emotions and to our primal
memories. And so I chose 2 senses to kind
of really focus on. One is taste.
The reason for that is being the most interconnected sense.
So while you eat something you use all 5 senses.
And then sound because of its transformative qualities that it
can really shift us and change us on, on a cellular level.
And so kind of backing up on a lot of research on those two on
the strength of those two senses, I, I created an
experience that kind of the, the goal of it was to ignite hope
and then to keep in sustaining it for the long term.
Yeah, I wanted to follow up on the Co design aspect of it.
You've been talking about the the sensory aspects of that and
how hope has this embodied dimension to it.
But in terms of Co design that requires working with other
people that you're Co designing with, right.
And so is hope a kind of Co created like social condition or
is it an individual one? And and how do we Co create that
as as something that's social? Yeah, I think that's such a
beautiful question. So I think another reason that I
was so excited to work on Hope was that it's something that is
so deeply personal on one hand, and at the same time it's
universal. We all hope for something.
It is. It is kind of a fundamental way
of being. And when we bring together
people who hope for similar things, there is a vast synergy,
an immense synergy power that is created.
And so the idea was really to to help people create something
that is deeply personal and at the same time have the power of
the group and the the reinforcement of the group to
hold that. That's something that is bigger
than that. And then also the Co design
plays a role in, I'll share with you in a minute the, the project
that I developed, but in the, in the conversational part.
So, so things or reality is created through conversation.
We, we understand ourselves better.
We understand what we mean better when we talk about it and
it starts with a deep reflection and then afterwards when you try
to articulate it, you actually understand more about what
you're trying to say, what you're trying to, what you have
in mind. So, so I think the code design
plays in two parts. 1 is really honing in on the on the power of
the collective and the synergy that it creates and then using
the conversational and the and the other as a as a sounding
board, as an echoing of what you're experiencing in order to
understand that better. Very cool.
And Speaking of the rebirth of hope as a project per SE, you
mentioned some of the sensory dimensions that you're bringing.
So taste and and sound, can you Cher?
Can you elaborate a little bit more?
What does someone actually experience when they encounter
the project? Yeah, of course.
So this was a project that I launched last November and I
actually, I had the the the honor to work with two
incredible artists. 1 is a food artist, his name is Jasper
Tancate and a composer whose name is Walter Bazoa.
And what we created is this dining experience where you walk
in, each person has a seat, blindfolds, a headphone, a
little plate with a cucumber salad.
And then in the middle, there are many, many different
ingredients that Jasper grew in his food museum, which is his
backyard. And people sit down.
And the 1st 6 minutes is an audio piece that you listen to
while you're blindfolded, seated around people that you don't
know. And it's a very introspective
experience going through the moment where hope was ignited
for you, kind of taking you back to where it happened.
What happened, what did it place like?
What did it feel like? Who were you with?
And, and then after they go through that experience, they
kind of take off the blindfolds and they have to choose one
ingredient after tasting many that kind of resembles that
moment and place it in their little plate.
So maybe a side note, the whole experience was designed around a
framework that I developed for Hope, which kind of take
Snyder's goal oriented approach, but also adds to it, as you
said, to the other, like the spiritual and the greater good
and the social good element into it.
So the the the three dimensions of hope framework that I
developed, one is the the moment that hope hope was born.
And that is maybe that the more spiritual, the more deep kind of
crisis mode or happy mode, something of great extreme, then
it is the greater good. So if that hope comes to
fruition, how is the world going to be and and work differently?
And then the third is the action that I can take.
So it's not only action oriented, but it's something
that is very embodied spiritual and, and an immersive
experience. So taking that framework and
going back to the experience, they went through this
blindfold. They chose one ingredient that
kind of resonated with the birth of their hope.
And then they had to have a conversation with a person next
to them around what is the greater good and choose an
ingredient about that resonates with that.
And then the action that they're going to take and then take
another ingredient and put it into the plate.
And so at the end of this experience, each person had
their very, very, very personal bite of hope.
We all ate it collectively together in a shared moment of
breaking bread, which is how we connect as humans.
And also this whole concept of that we become what we eat.
And so the the whole embodiment of our personal experience of
hope. I love that the the the
ingredients per SE have different meanings for each
person, right? So the recipe is a different
formula for each of them, exactly your own.
Personal recipe for hope and, and also a different, you know,
the, the, the meaning that we give it and, and taste is
something that is subjective and also very objective, but also
very, very subjective at the same time.
And so, and so the, the memories that it holds, the, the stories
that it holds. And there were really moments
where these people were who didn't know each other 1015
minutes ago were crying together, hugging, bursting in
tears, having really deep, a deep, a very deep experience.
And so then what we did after that, we asked people to write a
postcard for themselves explaining those 3 dimensions.
And we actually mailed, mailed it to them so they would have it
at home as kind of this echoing of what that hope is.
So we talked about the igniting and sustaining.
So this is the sustaining part. And then afterwards what we did
is we asked each participant to mark the selections that they
that they that they had. So whether I chose Chives or
rosemarine, I would mark it and I would mark to which answer
that was. And beforehand I created this
map of each answer and then each ingredient and a different
attribute of music that each dimension of hope is translated
into. And so in real time, I took
people's selections and translated them into a visual
score where the first question, the the moment that hope was
born, was translated into the chords of the music, The second
question, which was the greater good, translated into the
rhythm, and the third, which was what action they can take, was
translated into the melody. And after this visual score was
drawn, everybody from this exhibition, so it was a few 100
people congregated into one space and we had an incredible
band of a keyboard player, a saxophonist and a vocalist that
were playing in real time the collective music of hope.
And, and we also took the ingredient that got the most
votes for hope and we connected it into a MIDI synthesizer that
made the background noise. So it was a human and more than
human kind of experimental music composition.
Very cool. Makes me want to plug in.
I've been harvesting strawberries here in my home
garden. It's like, oh, I wonder what,
what kind of music they would play if I could plug them into
to a machine to translate that. So we've been talking about your
research, the kind of intellectual and theoretical
frameworks, as well as you're thinking in experience design
and how you shape these experiences in a concrete
project. I'd love to hear more about how
this shows up in your teaching. Like is it the hope research
specifically, or is it maybe your previous work with bio
mimicry? Like, how does this translate
into, say, your classroom at Parsons?
That's such a good question. I feel it comes into play in a
more subtle way. So I feel it kind of it becomes
into the kind of the philosophy of how I teach or, or the way
that I try to make the students look at things in a different
way from many different disciplines.
Not only one discipline that they try to look at solutions
both from a business perspective, but also from maybe
a scientific perspective and then and then connecting those
dots as we said in the beginning.
So I think I talk with them in the first class at each class
that innovation comes from seeing beauty in unexpected
places and then bring it, bringing it together into
creating something new that that has meaning, that makes the
world in some way a better place.
And so I feel those that maybe kind of informs my philosophy
and the way that I that I prompt them regardless of what the task
could have used. I love it and still speaking
about your role as a faculty at Parsons.
We know that many design programs around the world always
talk about social impact and purpose driven impact design and
design for good as well. So, but we believe there's a gap
between the the theory and the rhetoric and what the students
are actually prepared to do when they graduate and get out in the
world. What do you think it's missing
from from the moment we teach them how to design for social
change and when they're actually out there.
Yeah, I think this is such a good question and also something
that I give so much thought on. And I know that Lishan and I
talked about it a lot as well that kind of, you know, if we
look at the the traditional design thinking process, it's
really good when we get into, you know, ethnographic research
and empathy and understanding the the the audience that we're
designing for. And then also we kind of
cracking the right point of view and the right question that we
want to come up with. And also it in ideating, I think
it's really good. But then the whole idea of
prototyping and then testing, it's kind of it always comes at
the end. It's always something that is
like, I don't know, like towards the end of the semester they
come up with things that they're not accountable to actually make
work in the the real world. There's all these ideas that
don't necessarily are not tested in reality and are not, they
don't need to have a real business case or, or raise
funding or, or actually make it work with five different teams
that each one brings a different expertise.
So I feel like it's, it's really beautiful to kind of spark your
creativity and to help you understand what empathy is.
And, and it's really good as, as, as a research method, but as
a practice, I feel like it's lacking a lot of how do we
actually make it in the world? And all the, the problems that
arise when you try to actually integrate or implement an idea
into an organization, into a workflow, into a service.
So yeah, that, that's a big, that's a big miss.
Right, because it's like ideas are relatively cheap, but good
ideas still take a lot of work to get to them, right?
And you know, my follow up question is actually Reena, you
are as a professor, you are both like a guide, a coach and a
critic for your students, but you're also a role model.
So what would you say, what kind of advice do you give to your
students who say like, I want to do what you do right?
Having a multidisciplinary, transdisciplinary practice
that's research driven, but also socially engaged.
Like, what sort of advice do you give to students or even young
designers watching or listening to this who'd be like, oh, I
want to do something like RE Not with this.
Yeah. Multidisciplinary career and
approach. Yeah, I think so.
I think this is kind of full circle to the unexpected thing I
had about the, the egg where I, you know, I had this big project
I was working on so much and I wanted it to come out to the
world and have immediate impact. So connecting these dots and
especially when we talk about transdisciplinary and, and, you
know, looking into science and, and business and technology and
design and then within design or within our different disciplines
and then try to connect them. All these things take time and
they, it's not immediate. It's like maybe the moment where
things come together is like an aha moment, but to get to that,
to that aha moment takes a lot of time.
So I feel like there's a really, if we were talking about
uncertainty before, there's such a long period of uncertainty of
not knowing what you're doing. But if, if I did have one
advice, it would be something that I, the advice that I give
to myself every time I don't know is keep learning.
So I, I, I think of myself as a, as an infinite student.
I, I always learn something and it, and, and anything that that
draws me to it or I'm attracted to, I, even if it's something
completely out of my, my realm, I take a stab at it.
So I'll give you an example. And I, I take a stab at it
because I know by now that at one point it will make sense.
At one point the dots will connect and I will know why.
And so, for example, for a while I was so fascinated by visograph
printing. So it's a Japanese print machine
that does really beautiful monochromatic prints in layers,
one on top of the other. And I didn't know why I was
excited by it, but then I just took a course in it.
And then another moment I was really excited by Japanese book
binding. So I took a course in that.
And then Fast forward, I don't know, a year or two later, I
ended up writing Luca for his 2nd birthday, a poetry book, and
I decided I'm going to produce it by myself with pictures that
are done with Rizzo and bind it using Japanese binding
technique. And then it all came together.
But it I would never have known that then.
So I just maybe what I would. My advice would be that keep
learning all the time and take a stab at anything that interests
you, even if it sounds really bizarre.
I love that. Yeah.
It's also very much about keeping your curiosity alive and
also fed. So if you're curious about that,
you go and find out more about it.
If you're curious about something else, then you go
there and learn more about it. So it's almost like feeding your
creative self, even though you don't really know why you're
doing that. Yeah, exactly.
And I think it does two other things.
One is it keeps that beginner's mind that we so often lose with
time when we're in a, in a workload like for years and
years. And the second thing is that
it's very humbling. You know, when we become an
expert thing, we feel like we've got it all.
But then to do Rezo for the first time, then you see that
you suck and you know that that it's it's a very humbling
experience and it's really necessary, I believe.
That's great. That's great.
Awesome. So Vinat, you are currently
doing PhD teaching in New York, Paris, and Seoul, and also
running your, your studio, the Creative Lab in New York and
making art as you just mentioned and parenting your son Luca.
From the outside, it looks like there is a lot to hold and that
your days are like 72 hours. What's, what's, how do you do
it? Like what's the organizing logic
if there is any? Or do you how do you deal with
it in a more organic and lose way?
Yeah. So I, I think I leave the the
organic or the loose for what happens within a time slot, but
I'm very religious about my time slots and also my focus.
So I think at the beginning of each year, I, I divide the year
to quarters and I decide what the focus is on for this quote
for this quarter. And it's, it's, it's every time
it's something different. So for example, the last quarter
was mainly about the rebranding of the creative lab and starting
new projects there. And so the PhD was kind of put
to the side. Before that, the PhD there was
the huge art installation. So there was a lot of work
around that. And the creative lab was put
more to the side and there are of course, the non negotiables,
the non negotiables this time with Luca.
So when I need to pick him up from school, I go pick him up.
But it's really not that I'm doing everything all at once.
It's that I'm, I'm, I, I found the cadence to, to navigate
between what is important right now and what can be put to the
side for the next quarter. Yeah, I love that you say
because usually when we think about planning your more
thinking about how to how to organize your day or your week
and you are showing another way of looking in into the scale of
the year, right. I think it makes a lot of sense
with all of. Yeah.
And then you break it down to the month and the week, of
course, day and all of that, like to have a focus for 1/4.
I think that's important because it gives you enough time ahead
to kind of, yeah, not be super anxious every day.
Yeah, yeah. And it's bigger than your inbox
or just like your calendar agenda for that day or that
week, right? Yeah, yeah.
The scale helps to give you a little bit more perspective.
That's great. All right.
So as we start closing this conversation, if someone leaves
the conversation here with you and wants to bring even a little
bit of what you're sharing and introducing of the way and the
type of practice you have. And they want to also bring that
to their own ways of working and their own practice.
So that could be more attention to hope, as you explained in
detail to the body and the same to the nature as a model of
practice. Where do they start?
Where would you recommend them to start getting inspiration
from? I can share my way.
I don't know if it work for everyone, but my way is always
nature. So it's always going out nature.
And I always say nature has all the, the, the solutions already
there. It's already embedded and we
just need to observe and pick it up and learn from it.
And having that, as we said before, that humility of being
in the vastness of nature and just observing and being able to
draw from that to our personal life, to our business, to our
creative process. But for me, that's the biggest
teacher. I love it.
And there's a question we always
ask our our interviewees here that is about their source of
inspiration. So what has been inspiring you
lately? That could be a movie that you
watch the show, or an exhibition or a new singer or an album or,
yeah, anything that you've been inspired by lately.
Yeah, so, oh, there, there are many.
So I think my biggest inspiration, I'm sorry if I'm
corny, but it would be Luca because he's running for the
first time about life and just to see he's awe of everything
and he's wondering his eyes and through that I I learned so
much. So I think that's for sure the
biggest one. And then I was just in an AI
conference this week and it was really special because usually
conferences about AI talk about the technology and how it's the
end of the world and all of that.
But this was a take of creators and artists and designers of how
their approach or their relationship with an I with AI.
And I, I, I found that very inspiring.
And then maybe lastly, I would say that this is kind of like a
book that I love the creative act Robin that holds so much
wisdom and also connects the, you know, the tangible work as a
creator with the spiritual world.
So so I I really like that. I love it.
Thank you. Yeah, to close out the
conversation, Reena, where can our viewers or listeners find
you and your work online if they want to keep up with you?
Yeah, thank you. So LinkedIn of course, and then
the website reenachooser.com and the Creative Lab is going to be
under that website when we we launch it very soon.
So yeah, renaturzer.com all. Right, well, stay tuned.
And for folks who are watching, listening, please leave us a
comment or a review. You can also send us messages.
We love voicemails as well at podcast at aig.org.
And we hope to see you or hear you in a future episode.
I'm Li Shan Huang. Until next time.