1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,720 I was standing in line for the MoMA and in front of me there 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:06,880 was a group of about three women. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,000 And they were discussing an article that they read in a 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 culture magazine where they said they read about this lady that 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,720 was teaching organizations how to work more inspired by the the 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,280 female egg and how they can combine both the female and the 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,480 masculine energies into a workspace. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,560 And I thought to myself, wow, that sounds so super 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,080 fascinating. And I kind of eavesdrop and 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,480 listen more to what they're saying. 11 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:35,880 And as they were giving more details about the article, I 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:37,720 realized that they were talking about me. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Hello and welcome back to another episode of the AIGA 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,680 Design Podcast. My name is Li Shan Huang Co, 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,640 Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,800 Professional association for Design. 17 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,040 And I am Julia Donatello, Design competitions and events manager 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,200 at AIG. This season of the show we are 19 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,200 exloring the theme of Eyes on Design, inspired by the ION 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,920 Design publication. We are looking at design through 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:10,840 these three eyes of the connecting eye. 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,040 How design connects and interfaces with other fields and 23 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,880 disciplines. The critical eye. 24 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,600 Reflecting upon ourselves, what we do as designers, what we make 25 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,960 as designers, and the future eye, looking forward and looking 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,560 at how we shape the future as designers. 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,560 Our guest today, we are really happy to welcome back Reenat 28 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,840 Scherzer. She was actually on the show 29 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,520 back in 2020 before the whole world shut down, so it's great 30 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,600 to catch up with her. Reenat is a biotech engineer, 31 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,480 transdisciplinary designer, and artists whose work sits at the 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,360 intersection of science, technology, and social justice. 33 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,600 She's the founder of the Creative Lab, a social 34 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,400 innovation design lab whose clients have included Capital 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,680 One, Pfizer and the Swiss government. 36 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,040 She's an adjunct professor at Parsons School of Design in New 37 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,080 York, and her Ted X talk, The Bloody Taboo with Power to 38 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,840 Change the World, has reached audiences around the world. 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,479 She was selected by the UN to speak at the UN Women's Summit 40 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:13,480 for International Women's Day. Real Leaders magazine named her 41 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,160 one of the Top 40 Women Keynote speakers of 2020 and she is 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,880 currently APHD candidate at RMIT in Melbourne. 43 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,160 Researching hope through multi sensory design and Co design. 44 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,800 Her latest project at the Rebirth of Hope is a neuroart 45 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,640 project combining science, embodied experiments, embodied 46 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,360 experience and participatory making. 47 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,080 She's also the solo mom to an almost three-year old son Luca. 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,480 Welcome back. Hi, so nice to be here. 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:50,160 Thank you for having me. We're so glad to have you back 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:56,040 at the show and we've researched about your previous experiences 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,320 and we know that your title is very long so far. 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,400 For our listeners who are meeting you for the first time, 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,640 can you share a little bit? How do you describe what you do? 54 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,320 Yeah, it's always funny to to try and describe what I do. 55 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,640 I have an. Yeah, it's to share a memory 56 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:19,920 with and I know maybe 3 birthdays ago my dad wished for 57 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:22,440 my birthday that he will know what I do for a living. 58 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,120 That's so funny so. So, so you're not alone, but I 59 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:35,920 think if, if you're hard to kind of say it in one sentence, I my 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:41,000 goal or what I'm most passionate about is shifting broken social 61 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,200 paradigms. And the way that I go about it 62 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,600 is really, really open. There's always a component of 63 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,360 design. There's always a component of 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,480 science and a component of technology. 65 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,680 But how I use it and the methodologies, the the, the 66 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:06,640 tools, the yeah, the, the construct of it shifts according 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,880 to the theme, but it's always around a social issue that I'm 68 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,840 really passionate about shifting. 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,279 Awesome, awesome. And you brought, you mentioned 70 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,560 science, we know that you started as a biotechnology 71 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:28,000 engineer, a very unexpected beginning of a story for what? 72 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,480 For what you're doing right now. So can you share a little bit of 73 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,960 how scientific training actually leaves in the design practice 74 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,600 that you have today? And what did it give that the 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,080 design of a traditional design education wouldn't have given to 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,080 you? Yeah, that's such a good 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,880 question. So I think for the longest time 78 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,640 I went about life not understanding why I'm doing what 79 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,240 I'm doing. So I studied biotechnology 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,560 engineering, then went into the tech world, then shifted to 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,920 design for social innovation. And I think really for, I don't 82 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,960 know, maybe almost 2 decades, I didn't understand how the the 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,400 plot was unfolding. And I think Steve Jobs said that 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,880 at one point that, you know, dots can only be connected in 85 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,400 hindsight. So, and then when I started kind 86 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,960 of my finding my path or my unique voice within the, the 87 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,880 field of social innovation, I understood that I always go back 88 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,920 to science, I always go back to nature. 89 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:37,280 I always go back to how our bodies operate and kind of the, 90 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:43,680 the, whether it's a specific organ within our body or how 91 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,040 different, I don't know, neurotransmitters work or how 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,800 our reproductive system works. But I always find something that 93 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,800 really fascinates me and then use it as kind of the, the 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,440 foundation or the cornerstone of whatever I'm trying to, to work 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,160 towards. Very cool. 96 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:08,840 So as I mentioned in the intro, Reena, you were one of our last 97 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,120 guests when we used to record this podcast, when it was just 98 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,360 me as the host and we recorded in a physical recording studio 99 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,120 in New York City. I think you were on the show in 100 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,080 March of 2020, so just before New York City and the whole 101 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,720 world shut down for the COVID pandemic. 102 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,680 Just as a call back to what we talked about in that episode, we 103 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,360 talked about bio mimicry, the power of the egg, gender 104 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,120 equality, de shaming, the menstrual cycle. 105 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,040 And I know you've done a lot of stuff in the last six years 106 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,360 since then. It's a lot of time you've 107 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,040 enrolled in a PhD program, you're continuing to teach. 108 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,880 So can you give us maybe a brief update and we can follow up on 109 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,200 anything as well? Yeah, sure. 110 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,480 So, yeah, it was, it was such a pivotal time when we met. 111 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,480 So it was, I don't know if it was March, I don't know what was 112 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,600 it third or something like that. And beginning of March 8th, I 113 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,600 don't know something, something in the beginning. 114 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,840 And there was some really high plans for the project. 115 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,640 What would, what would the egg do? 116 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,040 And I'll just give a short recap. 117 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,520 It was based on a Ted X talk that I gave where I kind of 118 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:29,640 looked at the menstrual cycle as as a model for maybe solving or 119 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,640 tackling complex challenges and look at the four phases of the 120 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,560 cycle as an inspiration of how we can go about problem solving. 121 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,240 And I think maybe it's a good time to kind of describe why I 122 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:49,800 chose that path to, to talk about gender equality or 123 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,160 inequality. So I think there's the the main 124 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:59,200 voices or the the vocal voices around gender equality and 125 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,600 inequality were around how can we make women more like men? 126 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,600 How can we have a seat at the table? 127 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,680 And what was really interesting to me was what are the, you 128 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,520 know, unique, special, fantastic qualities that we bring as women 129 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,800 that are different from men and that are essential. 130 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,240 And I think the the theme of gender equality is so charged 131 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:31,640 and loaded that I wanted to take a stance that would kind of 132 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,000 lower the the entry barrier into this field for people who are 133 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,600 very adverse to it. So I looked at into science as a 134 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:47,560 as kind of my teacher and what I kind of thought of back then or 135 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:50,800 still think, but that what led me is that we live in a very 136 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,200 high testosterone driven society and in order to create life, we 137 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,600 need both the the egg and the sperm. 138 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,680 So how can we combine both of those? 139 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,200 So that was back then. I was just a couple days before 140 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,800 giving a speech at the UN at the Women's International Day, and 141 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,040 it was such an exciting time with an exhibition that was 142 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:20,280 supposed to open up and a book that I was supposed to to start 143 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,560 working on. And then the pandemic hit and 144 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:31,000 everything shifted and I think we were kind of all called to go 145 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:37,080 back and go inwards and be more like eggs for a while and not 146 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,120 rush constantly. It was like Mother Nature was 147 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,480 telling us this is like, it is it's, it's not working. 148 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,440 And so I think it was like everybody was a super reflective 149 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,040 time. And the exhibition that was 150 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:57,640 planned did go live, but in AVR way, which was really 151 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,880 interesting to work with technology and to work with 152 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,480 people who are doing like cutting edge stuff in that 153 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,280 space, which would never have happened if the pandemic didn't 154 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,480 happen. And also, I think this 155 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,600 reflective time and and allowing ourselves to be more like the 156 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:19,920 egg, being more idle, allowing things to come to US-led into 157 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:25,640 many, many life changes. One of them was my decision to 158 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,600 bring Luca to the world. And so I think that was a huge 159 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,600 shift. And then starting the PhD and 160 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,320 all that, which we'll probably get into in a minute. 161 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,520 Awesome. So cool to learn more about your 162 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,720 about the what would the AG do project. 163 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,280 I'm curious to hear from you. So you just said that the, you 164 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,720 were launching the the project just before the pandemic hit. 165 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,800 How did it? And you mentioned that you had 166 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,600 the, the exhibition per SE had to be in AVR format in the end, 167 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,240 So a lot of technology involved. How did the the project end up 168 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,360 going after that? And what did you feel like you 169 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,840 learned from it that you couldn't have predicted? 170 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Yeah, I think that's such a good question. 171 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 So I'll start maybe with a little anecdote about that 172 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,120 project, about what would the egg do. 173 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,760 In the TEDx talk that I gave at that time, I was standing in 174 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,080 line for the MoMA, and in front of me was a group of about three 175 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,360 women. I think it was three women and 176 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,560 they were discussing an article that they read in a culture 177 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,840 magazine where they said that they heard that they read about 178 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,560 this lady that was teaching organizations how to work more 179 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,280 inspired by the, the female egg and how they can combine both 180 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,920 the, the, the female and the masculine energies into a 181 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,520 workspace. And I thought to myself, wow, 182 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,560 that sounds so super fascinating. 183 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,280 And I kind of eavesdrop and listen more to what they're 184 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:58,760 saying. And as they were giving more 185 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,360 details about the article, I realized that they were talking 186 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:09,240 about me. Like I, I, I came after that and 187 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,240 I think I said, I think you're talking about me. 188 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,240 And they turned around and they recognized my face and we, we 189 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,560 ended up having such a funny conversation about that. 190 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:19,240 And so that is definitely something that I could never 191 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,200 have predicted that would have come out of this project. 192 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:29,040 But I think what I, what this story kind of tells me or, or 193 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,720 shows me is that, you know, this is many people, many creators 194 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,880 have said this before. But once we create something and 195 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,520 put it out to the world, it's no longer ours, right? 196 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,400 It, it has a life of its own and it has legs. 197 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,080 And we never know what the ripple effect of what we are 198 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,000 creating will have on, on others. 199 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,320 And so just to see, to have kind of like this moment where where 200 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,920 I was evident to that was really, really nice. 201 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,360 But it kind of made me think, you know, of course, we all want 202 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,880 to create something that will have impact, that will gain, you 203 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,520 know, traction that people will see, that people will have 204 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,000 thoughts on and, and do stuff with. 205 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,960 But what I didn't realize at that time was the power of of 206 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,200 time. So that I was sure that, you 207 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,440 know, I gave up this Ted talk and then the, the, the 208 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,240 exhibition didn't happen. And then it happened in VR and I 209 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,680 wanted kind of the results to be immediate and or hoped for the 210 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,880 results to be immediate, which is, you know, more like a like a 211 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,720 sperm than an egg. And I wanted to, you know, like 212 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,400 now here and now. And I think what for me was the 213 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:51,000 most unpredictable thing from this project is just, you know, 214 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:58,480 seeing the ripple effect of this project in in the, in the length 215 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,280 of time after two years, after three years, receiving an e-mail 216 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,240 from someone, I don't know, five years later, hearing how it 217 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,360 impacted them. And I think this is something 218 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,560 that is really important for us to the to remember as artists, 219 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,280 as designers, as creators, that results are not always 220 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,600 immediate. And it's not. 221 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,000 And yeah, the, the, the, the, whatever you're creating has 222 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,880 life after that, and it will unfold and add its own time. 223 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,280 So I think that was a big unpredictable thing. 224 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:36,600 Very cool. Wow. 225 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,960 So I want to Fast forward back to the present and what you're 226 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,640 working on now. So just to catch folks up, 227 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,360 you've since enrolled in a PhD program at RMIT specifically to 228 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,280 research design and hope. So I guess I have a two-part 229 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,800 question, which is 1 is like why hope? 230 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,320 And then to help us connect the dots between design and hope. 231 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,680 I don't think these words are often said together a lot. 232 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,040 You know, we often talk about design and behavior change or 233 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,480 design and systems design and accessibility experiences. 234 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,480 I think those are fairly common. But Design and Hope Together is 235 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,480 maybe less familiar to most people listening to this. 236 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,280 So yeah, I guess the the why and then help us connect the dots 237 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,760 please. Yeah, for sure. 238 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,800 Thank you. So when I enrolled, the PHDI was 239 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,320 highly pregnant. I was about 8 months pregnant 240 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,440 and I gave the title of my PhD something like extremely broad 241 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,720 purpose driven transdisciplinary design in times of turmoil. 242 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,560 So it was me kind of responding to the Poly crisis that we're 243 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,640 in. It was the the COVID and then 244 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:55,280 the war between Russia and Ukraine and all these leaders 245 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,800 with a lot of power rising up. And I was like, OK, I have to do 246 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,400 something that that creates a stance in that world. 247 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,760 But it was very broad in times of turmoil. 248 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:12,680 Fast forward, I gave birth to Luca and I was supposed to go 249 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,600 back to the PhD after four months of maternity leave. 250 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,320 Then after three months that he was born, I was visiting my 251 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,040 family in the South of Israel for the High holidays. 252 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,040 And at 6:30 in the morning, the siren went off, rushing us to 253 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,480 the shelter. And while we were in the 254 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,520 shelter, which was where my parents live, is about 20 miles 255 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,520 from where the everything happened. 256 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:49,640 So I was holding Lukas, scared for his life, hearing what is 257 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,600 happening outside. Really. 258 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,680 Yeah. Critical moment in life. 259 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:03,080 And I remember that, you know, this moment where I was like, 260 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,960 enough. This cannot continue. 261 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,760 If we want to exist, we need to coexist. 262 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:14,720 And I think my hope was born for look up to be able to play with 263 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,240 his Palestinian brothers and sisters when he grows up and 264 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,800 that they did not prepare me for all the things that unfolded in 265 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,880 the three years after that. But I think that birth of hope 266 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,920 was the fuel that kept me going through all of that. 267 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:41,680 And so I think this really, really sharp juxtaposition 268 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,160 between these two life changing events, one being the happiest, 269 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,600 the second being the most devastating, called me forward 270 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,880 to take a stance. And I'm not a, I'm not political 271 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,120 activist at all. And I wanted to take a stance in 272 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,120 a way that I could take a stance. 273 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:06,280 And so then this is a great segue into wide design. 274 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,240 And so as I said in the beginning, I think I'm each time 275 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,600 I'm called towards a social paradigm, a broken social 276 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,040 paradigm that I feel that I want to shift in some way or another. 277 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:27,360 And what I realized on that day was that hope is very different 278 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,240 from wishful thinking. So we often tangibly use hope as 279 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,000 wishful thinking, but hope is actually something so much 280 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,800 deeper. I'll, I'll take you in a, in a 281 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,720 moment through the history of hope, which is really, but it's 282 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,680 not wishful thinking. It's something that often arises 283 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,280 from deep, deep crisis. And it is something that calls 284 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:56,880 us into action and it calls us into action with a really deep 285 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,520 uncertainty of whether the what we desire for is going to happen 286 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,320 or not is going to come to fruition or not. 287 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,480 And we still need to operate within that uncertainty. 288 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,360 So I said, OK, uncertainty and it also hope requires a lot of 289 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,680 creativity. I'll get to that in a moment. 290 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,840 So uncertainty, creativity and social change, I think we've got 291 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,440 it all, all the ingredients of what I'm really passionate about 292 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,640 creating. And so I set to kind of research 293 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,960 what is hope and then once I get a better handle on on that 294 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,360 construct, then to try and ignite it and sustain it or 295 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,600 create experiences that ignite and sustain it. 296 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,480 So what is hope actually? Is it like a feeling? 297 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,000 It's a vibe? Is it a capacity? 298 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,400 Like how do you define it and and help us understand what hope 299 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,400 is in this definition? Yeah. 300 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,640 So when I started the PhD and I decided I'm going to kind of 301 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,840 hone in on hope, I try to understand what is it. 302 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,320 And I read many, many, many articles from different scholars 303 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,680 and I was really surprised. Actually, because I was sure 304 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,720 it's going to be something very positive, something that is very 305 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,760 uplifting. And the first thing that I kind 306 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,160 of was overwhelmed by was the amount of bad Rep that it had 307 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:32,400 throughout history. So so said that it was it was an 308 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,120 undesirable cause. Wait, I want to I want to read 309 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:40,240 it properly. So one second plateau defined 310 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,000 hope is an unreliable guide detached from reason and 311 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,120 intellect. And then Aristotle linked hope 312 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,160 with arrogance. And so this was very kind of 313 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,960 groundbreaking to me. I didn't even see that coming. 314 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,760 And I read more and more and more. 315 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,920 And so that really throughout history, it wasn't, it wasn't 316 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,280 related to as as a positive thing. 317 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,000 And it went for almost 2 1/2 millennials. 318 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:14,440 So even until modern psychology. So Nietzsche considered hope to 319 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,600 be the worst of all evils for prolonging suffering when hope 320 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,200 doesn't come to fruition. And Freud suggested that 321 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,760 sophistication and intellect should replace hope. 322 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,440 And so it is a sign of weakness. So this was really eye opening 323 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,320 for me. I didn't expect that. 324 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,040 And I know, you know, from my design skills, when I see 325 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,960 something that I don't expect or when I see contradictions from 326 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,960 something very positive, something very negative, there's 327 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,520 something to explore there. So the first thing that I did as 328 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:49,680 a designer, I mapped all the scholars in a timeline and I saw 329 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,440 something that I, I could not have seen otherwise. 330 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,360 I saw that it had this very negative connotation for over 2 331 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,400 1/2 millennials and then at one point in history everything 332 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,200 shifted. And so that point in history was 333 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:15,200 World War 2 and Victor Frank Frankel, who survived Auschwitz, 334 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,280 came out in 1946 and wrote the book The Man's Search for 335 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,200 Meaning. And this was the first time in 336 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,160 history. And what I'm saying now there's 337 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,840 a big disclaimer here. I did not go into theology when 338 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,840 I researched hope. I really wanted this drastic and 339 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,480 I didn't wanted to to get into one religious, one religion 340 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,480 versus the other. So this map was an agnostic map 341 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 on the the timeline or the history of hope. 342 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,640 And so Viktor Frankel, when he came out of Auschwitz, wrote the 343 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,280 book The Man Search for Meaning in 1946. 344 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,040 And he was the first to write that hope is a vital resource 345 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,080 for human survival. And after that started a huge 346 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:05,560 cascade of philosophers, psychologists, positive 347 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,800 psychologist, people from the nursing world, all relating to 348 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,000 hope as the thing that you need to strive for. 349 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,520 And how do we get more of that in our life? 350 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,680 It was only in 1963 that Robin Downey, who was a philosopher, 351 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,320 wrote this article called Hope, and he says that hope consists 352 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,560 of a desire for an outcome together with the belief that an 353 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,760 outcome is possible, though uncertain. 354 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,560 So this was the first time in 1963 that we actually got the 355 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,000 definition of what hope is. And if I go back to what is it? 356 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,200 Is it a vibe? Is it AI think it's a it's a 357 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,840 human construct as complex as being human. 358 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:57,240 So I wouldn't narrow it to a feeling or an emotion or a vibe. 359 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,440 I would just say that it really it's something that encompasses 360 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,320 throughout our lives. And I think another thing to, to 361 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,240 kind of really focus on is that in a lot of times, it does them 362 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:17,160 from something very, very harsh, from a very big crisis in one's 363 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,600 life. And so another note that I want 364 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,240 to share, which is really interesting. 365 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,200 The, the next big thing that happened to Hope was in 1991 366 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:33,160 when Richard Snyder, who was a positive psychologist, kind of 367 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,400 cracked what Hope was. And he really looked at it as a 368 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,720 cognitive construct that you need both agencies. 369 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,760 So the motivation, the inner motivation towards something and 370 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,520 the pathways and pathways is all about finding different ways 371 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:58,640 towards something, which is very much heavily leans on on 372 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,080 creativity. And so I think designers can be 373 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:09,040 amazing conduits for, for hope. And then in my research, I was, 374 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,720 I, I, I sat down with it and I realized two big things. 375 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,920 One is all the scholars that I look into talk about hope as 376 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,560 something that we already have. So they don't talk about how 377 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,360 does it arise in US? When does it arise in US? 378 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,320 And the second one is that they talk about it from a cognitive 379 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,320 perspective. So Richard Snyder really talked 380 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,920 about of like, what are the actions that you can take 381 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,040 physical actions, or I'm sorry, not physical cognitive actions 382 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,760 that you can take to problem solve in order to get to that 383 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,680 hope. And I think this was my next big 384 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,680 aha moment where I was, I was like, wait, what about how do 385 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,680 people when, when is it born? When is that hope born in 386 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,480 people? And how can we ignite it again 387 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,040 and again? And then how can we sustain it 388 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:09,080 in a way that's not only cognitive, that really captures 389 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,520 the whole embodied cognition, the whole the, all the senses, 390 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,120 the body and the wisdom of the body that it brings towards 391 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,000 sustaining it in our everyday. So not something that is only 392 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,120 head heavy, but something that involves the whole body. 393 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,120 Wow, very interesting. And I think as you were saying, 394 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:37,360 I was also thinking about like what does hope mean to me and 395 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,360 like what it how do I feel hope and how is that related or not 396 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:47,360 to to some type of like Mystic or religion aspect of my own 397 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,360 understanding of the world. So very interesting. 398 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,480 It's making me reflect on that. That's very cool. 399 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaking about your PhD, you know that the the frame of the 400 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,840 method is multi sensory design and Co design. 401 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,720 So I'm I'm curious to hear more from you this sensory aspect of 402 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:15,680 doing in this work. Is it is it doing something that 403 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,080 language and visual communication can't do alone? 404 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:23,960 Do you believe that or, and also how, how do you feel like? 405 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,720 How are you presenting this multi sensory approach to the 406 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,160 world, to whoever you want to engage in the discourse on this 407 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320 conversation? Yeah, I think that's a such a 408 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,040 beautiful question because I think there's such a vast 409 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,680 language that is non verbal beyond words and beyond only 410 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,120 sight. And because hope is kind of that 411 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:56,160 vast, vast construct that is really hard to unpack. 412 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,600 And at times it's also ineffable. 413 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,440 We don't have the the right words for it. 414 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,320 We don't even know what it means for us. 415 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:10,160 I wanted to turn to a language that is beyond words but is 416 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,400 really deeply connected to our emotions and to our primal 417 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,200 memories. And so I chose 2 senses to kind 418 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,000 of really focus on. One is taste. 419 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,760 The reason for that is being the most interconnected sense. 420 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,160 So while you eat something you use all 5 senses. 421 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,480 And then sound because of its transformative qualities that it 422 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,320 can really shift us and change us on, on a cellular level. 423 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:46,080 And so kind of backing up on a lot of research on those two on 424 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,080 the strength of those two senses, I, I created an 425 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,320 experience that kind of the, the goal of it was to ignite hope 426 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,880 and then to keep in sustaining it for the long term. 427 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760 Yeah, I wanted to follow up on the Co design aspect of it. 428 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,400 You've been talking about the the sensory aspects of that and 429 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,760 how hope has this embodied dimension to it. 430 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,240 But in terms of Co design that requires working with other 431 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,120 people that you're Co designing with, right. 432 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,720 And so is hope a kind of Co created like social condition or 433 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,920 is it an individual one? And and how do we Co create that 434 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,720 as as something that's social? Yeah, I think that's such a 435 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,560 beautiful question. So I think another reason that I 436 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,160 was so excited to work on Hope was that it's something that is 437 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,600 so deeply personal on one hand, and at the same time it's 438 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,720 universal. We all hope for something. 439 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,480 It is. It is kind of a fundamental way 440 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,160 of being. And when we bring together 441 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,800 people who hope for similar things, there is a vast synergy, 442 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,320 an immense synergy power that is created. 443 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,040 And so the idea was really to to help people create something 444 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,960 that is deeply personal and at the same time have the power of 445 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,160 the group and the the reinforcement of the group to 446 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,280 hold that. That's something that is bigger 447 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,480 than that. And then also the Co design 448 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,680 plays a role in, I'll share with you in a minute the, the project 449 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,600 that I developed, but in the, in the conversational part. 450 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:29,080 So, so things or reality is created through conversation. 451 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,080 We, we understand ourselves better. 452 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:36,480 We understand what we mean better when we talk about it and 453 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,000 it starts with a deep reflection and then afterwards when you try 454 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,320 to articulate it, you actually understand more about what 455 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,680 you're trying to say, what you're trying to, what you have 456 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,040 in mind. So, so I think the code design 457 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:56,400 plays in two parts. 1 is really honing in on the on the power of 458 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,760 the collective and the synergy that it creates and then using 459 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,680 the conversational and the and the other as a as a sounding 460 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,760 board, as an echoing of what you're experiencing in order to 461 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,080 understand that better. Very cool. 462 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:18,800 And Speaking of the rebirth of hope as a project per SE, you 463 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,160 mentioned some of the sensory dimensions that you're bringing. 464 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:28,840 So taste and and sound, can you Cher? 465 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,560 Can you elaborate a little bit more? 466 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,640 What does someone actually experience when they encounter 467 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,760 the project? Yeah, of course. 468 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,320 So this was a project that I launched last November and I 469 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,840 actually, I had the the the honor to work with two 470 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,920 incredible artists. 1 is a food artist, his name is Jasper 471 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,880 Tancate and a composer whose name is Walter Bazoa. 472 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,120 And what we created is this dining experience where you walk 473 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:06,480 in, each person has a seat, blindfolds, a headphone, a 474 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,880 little plate with a cucumber salad. 475 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,600 And then in the middle, there are many, many different 476 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,520 ingredients that Jasper grew in his food museum, which is his 477 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,720 backyard. And people sit down. 478 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,520 And the 1st 6 minutes is an audio piece that you listen to 479 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,760 while you're blindfolded, seated around people that you don't 480 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,640 know. And it's a very introspective 481 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,520 experience going through the moment where hope was ignited 482 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,720 for you, kind of taking you back to where it happened. 483 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,840 What happened, what did it place like? 484 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,640 What did it feel like? Who were you with? 485 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,920 And, and then after they go through that experience, they 486 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,480 kind of take off the blindfolds and they have to choose one 487 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,680 ingredient after tasting many that kind of resembles that 488 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,560 moment and place it in their little plate. 489 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,360 So maybe a side note, the whole experience was designed around a 490 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,280 framework that I developed for Hope, which kind of take 491 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Snyder's goal oriented approach, but also adds to it, as you 492 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,840 said, to the other, like the spiritual and the greater good 493 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,480 and the social good element into it. 494 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:32,680 So the the the three dimensions of hope framework that I 495 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,320 developed, one is the the moment that hope hope was born. 496 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,360 And that is maybe that the more spiritual, the more deep kind of 497 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,160 crisis mode or happy mode, something of great extreme, then 498 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,840 it is the greater good. So if that hope comes to 499 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,000 fruition, how is the world going to be and and work differently? 500 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,000 And then the third is the action that I can take. 501 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,000 So it's not only action oriented, but it's something 502 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,720 that is very embodied spiritual and, and an immersive 503 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,679 experience. So taking that framework and 504 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,280 going back to the experience, they went through this 505 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,360 blindfold. They chose one ingredient that 506 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,080 kind of resonated with the birth of their hope. 507 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,280 And then they had to have a conversation with a person next 508 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,600 to them around what is the greater good and choose an 509 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,960 ingredient about that resonates with that. 510 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,560 And then the action that they're going to take and then take 511 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,000 another ingredient and put it into the plate. 512 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,520 And so at the end of this experience, each person had 513 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,679 their very, very, very personal bite of hope. 514 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,400 We all ate it collectively together in a shared moment of 515 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,360 breaking bread, which is how we connect as humans. 516 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,120 And also this whole concept of that we become what we eat. 517 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,680 And so the the whole embodiment of our personal experience of 518 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,840 hope. I love that the the the 519 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,040 ingredients per SE have different meanings for each 520 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,840 person, right? So the recipe is a different 521 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,200 formula for each of them, exactly your own. 522 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,320 Personal recipe for hope and, and also a different, you know, 523 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560 the, the, the meaning that we give it and, and taste is 524 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,840 something that is subjective and also very objective, but also 525 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,760 very, very subjective at the same time. 526 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:37,600 And so, and so the, the memories that it holds, the, the stories 527 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,800 that it holds. And there were really moments 528 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,920 where these people were who didn't know each other 1015 529 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,400 minutes ago were crying together, hugging, bursting in 530 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:54,280 tears, having really deep, a deep, a very deep experience. 531 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,600 And so then what we did after that, we asked people to write a 532 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:05,320 postcard for themselves explaining those 3 dimensions. 533 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,200 And we actually mailed, mailed it to them so they would have it 534 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,840 at home as kind of this echoing of what that hope is. 535 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,040 So we talked about the igniting and sustaining. 536 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,000 So this is the sustaining part. And then afterwards what we did 537 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,240 is we asked each participant to mark the selections that they 538 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:34,000 that they that they had. So whether I chose Chives or 539 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,000 rosemarine, I would mark it and I would mark to which answer 540 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,440 that was. And beforehand I created this 541 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,720 map of each answer and then each ingredient and a different 542 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:53,200 attribute of music that each dimension of hope is translated 543 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,360 into. And so in real time, I took 544 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:01,560 people's selections and translated them into a visual 545 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:07,080 score where the first question, the the moment that hope was 546 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,160 born, was translated into the chords of the music, The second 547 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,240 question, which was the greater good, translated into the 548 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:19,680 rhythm, and the third, which was what action they can take, was 549 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,000 translated into the melody. And after this visual score was 550 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,240 drawn, everybody from this exhibition, so it was a few 100 551 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,800 people congregated into one space and we had an incredible 552 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,960 band of a keyboard player, a saxophonist and a vocalist that 553 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,840 were playing in real time the collective music of hope. 554 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,800 And, and we also took the ingredient that got the most 555 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,560 votes for hope and we connected it into a MIDI synthesizer that 556 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,960 made the background noise. So it was a human and more than 557 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,840 human kind of experimental music composition. 558 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,040 Very cool. Makes me want to plug in. 559 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,600 I've been harvesting strawberries here in my home 560 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,160 garden. It's like, oh, I wonder what, 561 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,320 what kind of music they would play if I could plug them into 562 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:17,000 to a machine to translate that. So we've been talking about your 563 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,880 research, the kind of intellectual and theoretical 564 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,320 frameworks, as well as you're thinking in experience design 565 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,320 and how you shape these experiences in a concrete 566 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,480 project. I'd love to hear more about how 567 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,760 this shows up in your teaching. Like is it the hope research 568 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,280 specifically, or is it maybe your previous work with bio 569 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,840 mimicry? Like, how does this translate 570 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,080 into, say, your classroom at Parsons? 571 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,200 That's such a good question. I feel it comes into play in a 572 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:53,360 more subtle way. So I feel it kind of it becomes 573 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,120 into the kind of the philosophy of how I teach or, or the way 574 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,000 that I try to make the students look at things in a different 575 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,800 way from many different disciplines. 576 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,640 Not only one discipline that they try to look at solutions 577 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,080 both from a business perspective, but also from maybe 578 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,720 a scientific perspective and then and then connecting those 579 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:20,320 dots as we said in the beginning. 580 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,560 So I think I talk with them in the first class at each class 581 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,400 that innovation comes from seeing beauty in unexpected 582 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,800 places and then bring it, bringing it together into 583 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,560 creating something new that that has meaning, that makes the 584 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,040 world in some way a better place. 585 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:44,400 And so I feel those that maybe kind of informs my philosophy 586 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,640 and the way that I that I prompt them regardless of what the task 587 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:56,240 could have used. I love it and still speaking 588 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:58,880 about your role as a faculty at Parsons. 589 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,600 We know that many design programs around the world always 590 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:11,040 talk about social impact and purpose driven impact design and 591 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,840 design for good as well. So, but we believe there's a gap 592 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,160 between the the theory and the rhetoric and what the students 593 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,200 are actually prepared to do when they graduate and get out in the 594 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,400 world. What do you think it's missing 595 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:32,520 from from the moment we teach them how to design for social 596 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,360 change and when they're actually out there. 597 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,960 Yeah, I think this is such a good question and also something 598 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,240 that I give so much thought on. And I know that Lishan and I 599 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,360 talked about it a lot as well that kind of, you know, if we 600 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,640 look at the the traditional design thinking process, it's 601 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,880 really good when we get into, you know, ethnographic research 602 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,360 and empathy and understanding the the the audience that we're 603 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,320 designing for. And then also we kind of 604 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,240 cracking the right point of view and the right question that we 605 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,200 want to come up with. And also it in ideating, I think 606 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:11,800 it's really good. But then the whole idea of 607 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,840 prototyping and then testing, it's kind of it always comes at 608 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,800 the end. It's always something that is 609 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,080 like, I don't know, like towards the end of the semester they 610 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,920 come up with things that they're not accountable to actually make 611 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,240 work in the the real world. There's all these ideas that 612 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:36,320 don't necessarily are not tested in reality and are not, they 613 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,520 don't need to have a real business case or, or raise 614 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,800 funding or, or actually make it work with five different teams 615 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,440 that each one brings a different expertise. 616 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,640 So I feel like it's, it's really beautiful to kind of spark your 617 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,280 creativity and to help you understand what empathy is. 618 00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:01,760 And, and it's really good as, as, as a research method, but as 619 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,960 a practice, I feel like it's lacking a lot of how do we 620 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,920 actually make it in the world? And all the, the problems that 621 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,840 arise when you try to actually integrate or implement an idea 622 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,400 into an organization, into a workflow, into a service. 623 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,200 So yeah, that, that's a big, that's a big miss. 624 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,720 Right, because it's like ideas are relatively cheap, but good 625 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,600 ideas still take a lot of work to get to them, right? 626 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,440 And you know, my follow up question is actually Reena, you 627 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,560 are as a professor, you are both like a guide, a coach and a 628 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,240 critic for your students, but you're also a role model. 629 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,800 So what would you say, what kind of advice do you give to your 630 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,640 students who say like, I want to do what you do right? 631 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,000 Having a multidisciplinary, transdisciplinary practice 632 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,000 that's research driven, but also socially engaged. 633 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,400 Like, what sort of advice do you give to students or even young 634 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,000 designers watching or listening to this who'd be like, oh, I 635 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,720 want to do something like RE Not with this. 636 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,040 Yeah. Multidisciplinary career and 637 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,600 approach. Yeah, I think so. 638 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,640 I think this is kind of full circle to the unexpected thing I 639 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,080 had about the, the egg where I, you know, I had this big project 640 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,520 I was working on so much and I wanted it to come out to the 641 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,480 world and have immediate impact. So connecting these dots and 642 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,880 especially when we talk about transdisciplinary and, and, you 643 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,600 know, looking into science and, and business and technology and 644 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,920 design and then within design or within our different disciplines 645 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,800 and then try to connect them. All these things take time and 646 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,560 they, it's not immediate. It's like maybe the moment where 647 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,120 things come together is like an aha moment, but to get to that, 648 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,880 to that aha moment takes a lot of time. 649 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,880 So I feel like there's a really, if we were talking about 650 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,840 uncertainty before, there's such a long period of uncertainty of 651 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,880 not knowing what you're doing. But if, if I did have one 652 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,000 advice, it would be something that I, the advice that I give 653 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,040 to myself every time I don't know is keep learning. 654 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:18,120 So I, I, I think of myself as a, as an infinite student. 655 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,440 I, I always learn something and it, and, and anything that that 656 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,480 draws me to it or I'm attracted to, I, even if it's something 657 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,640 completely out of my, my realm, I take a stab at it. 658 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,800 So I'll give you an example. And I, I take a stab at it 659 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,520 because I know by now that at one point it will make sense. 660 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,200 At one point the dots will connect and I will know why. 661 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:52,440 And so, for example, for a while I was so fascinated by visograph 662 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,520 printing. So it's a Japanese print machine 663 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:01,440 that does really beautiful monochromatic prints in layers, 664 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,680 one on top of the other. And I didn't know why I was 665 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,360 excited by it, but then I just took a course in it. 666 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,080 And then another moment I was really excited by Japanese book 667 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,680 binding. So I took a course in that. 668 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,000 And then Fast forward, I don't know, a year or two later, I 669 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,720 ended up writing Luca for his 2nd birthday, a poetry book, and 670 00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:30,160 I decided I'm going to produce it by myself with pictures that 671 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:35,840 are done with Rizzo and bind it using Japanese binding 672 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,040 technique. And then it all came together. 673 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,320 But it I would never have known that then. 674 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:48,840 So I just maybe what I would. My advice would be that keep 675 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,800 learning all the time and take a stab at anything that interests 676 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,480 you, even if it sounds really bizarre. 677 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,400 I love that. Yeah. 678 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:57,560 I love that. Yeah. 679 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,840 It's also very much about keeping your curiosity alive and 680 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,240 also fed. So if you're curious about that, 681 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,160 you go and find out more about it. 682 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,840 If you're curious about something else, then you go 683 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,440 there and learn more about it. So it's almost like feeding your 684 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:18,040 creative self, even though you don't really know why you're 685 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,600 doing that. Yeah, exactly. 686 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,640 And I think it does two other things. 687 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:28,520 One is it keeps that beginner's mind that we so often lose with 688 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,600 time when we're in a, in a workload like for years and 689 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,760 years. And the second thing is that 690 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,840 it's very humbling. You know, when we become an 691 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,080 expert thing, we feel like we've got it all. 692 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,000 But then to do Rezo for the first time, then you see that 693 00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:46,480 you suck and you know that that it's it's a very humbling 694 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,560 experience and it's really necessary, I believe. 695 00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:50,960 That's great. That's great. 696 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,280 Awesome. So Vinat, you are currently 697 00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:00,560 doing PhD teaching in New York, Paris, and Seoul, and also 698 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,880 running your, your studio, the Creative Lab in New York and 699 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,040 making art as you just mentioned and parenting your son Luca. 700 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,200 From the outside, it looks like there is a lot to hold and that 701 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:19,480 your days are like 72 hours. What's, what's, how do you do 702 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,440 it? Like what's the organizing logic 703 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:28,440 if there is any? Or do you how do you deal with 704 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,600 it in a more organic and lose way? 705 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,600 Yeah. So I, I think I leave the the 706 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,520 organic or the loose for what happens within a time slot, but 707 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,080 I'm very religious about my time slots and also my focus. 708 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,560 So I think at the beginning of each year, I, I divide the year 709 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,480 to quarters and I decide what the focus is on for this quote 710 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,680 for this quarter. And it's, it's, it's every time 711 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,520 it's something different. So for example, the last quarter 712 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:04,400 was mainly about the rebranding of the creative lab and starting 713 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,640 new projects there. And so the PhD was kind of put 714 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,200 to the side. Before that, the PhD there was 715 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,360 the huge art installation. So there was a lot of work 716 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,440 around that. And the creative lab was put 717 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,040 more to the side and there are of course, the non negotiables, 718 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,200 the non negotiables this time with Luca. 719 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,480 So when I need to pick him up from school, I go pick him up. 720 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,760 But it's really not that I'm doing everything all at once. 721 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,760 It's that I'm, I'm, I, I found the cadence to, to navigate 722 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,200 between what is important right now and what can be put to the 723 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:44,920 side for the next quarter. Yeah, I love that you say 724 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,760 because usually when we think about planning your more 725 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,080 thinking about how to how to organize your day or your week 726 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,960 and you are showing another way of looking in into the scale of 727 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,560 the year, right. I think it makes a lot of sense 728 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,320 with all of. Yeah. 729 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,400 And then you break it down to the month and the week, of 730 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,360 course, day and all of that, like to have a focus for 1/4. 731 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,240 I think that's important because it gives you enough time ahead 732 00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:13,320 to kind of, yeah, not be super anxious every day. 733 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,080 Yeah, yeah. And it's bigger than your inbox 734 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,200 or just like your calendar agenda for that day or that 735 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,240 week, right? Yeah, yeah. 736 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,240 The scale helps to give you a little bit more perspective. 737 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:27,040 That's great. All right. 738 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,840 So as we start closing this conversation, if someone leaves 739 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,800 the conversation here with you and wants to bring even a little 740 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,480 bit of what you're sharing and introducing of the way and the 741 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,080 type of practice you have. And they want to also bring that 742 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,400 to their own ways of working and their own practice. 743 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,000 So that could be more attention to hope, as you explained in 744 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,200 detail to the body and the same to the nature as a model of 745 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,440 practice. Where do they start? 746 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,920 Where would you recommend them to start getting inspiration 747 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,080 from? I can share my way. 748 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,440 I don't know if it work for everyone, but my way is always 749 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,680 nature. So it's always going out nature. 750 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,880 And I always say nature has all the, the, the solutions already 751 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,240 there. It's already embedded and we 752 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:24,840 just need to observe and pick it up and learn from it. 753 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,800 And having that, as we said before, that humility of being 754 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,560 in the vastness of nature and just observing and being able to 755 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,680 draw from that to our personal life, to our business, to our 756 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,760 creative process. But for me, that's the biggest 757 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,360 teacher. I love it. 758 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,880 I love it. And there's a question we always 759 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:54,560 ask our our interviewees here that is about their source of 760 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,240 inspiration. So what has been inspiring you 761 00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:01,280 lately? That could be a movie that you 762 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:07,440 watch the show, or an exhibition or a new singer or an album or, 763 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,200 yeah, anything that you've been inspired by lately. 764 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,200 Yeah, so, oh, there, there are many. 765 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,680 So I think my biggest inspiration, I'm sorry if I'm 766 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,200 corny, but it would be Luca because he's running for the 767 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,120 first time about life and just to see he's awe of everything 768 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:34,680 and he's wondering his eyes and through that I I learned so 769 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,480 much. So I think that's for sure the 770 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:43,320 biggest one. And then I was just in an AI 771 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:48,000 conference this week and it was really special because usually 772 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,000 conferences about AI talk about the technology and how it's the 773 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,120 end of the world and all of that. 774 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,800 But this was a take of creators and artists and designers of how 775 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,680 their approach or their relationship with an I with AI. 776 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,360 And I, I, I found that very inspiring. 777 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,040 And then maybe lastly, I would say that this is kind of like a 778 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,400 book that I love the creative act Robin that holds so much 779 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,400 wisdom and also connects the, you know, the tangible work as a 780 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,040 creator with the spiritual world. 781 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,520 So so I I really like that. I love it. 782 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,080 Thank you. Yeah, to close out the 783 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,040 conversation, Reena, where can our viewers or listeners find 784 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,120 you and your work online if they want to keep up with you? 785 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,200 Yeah, thank you. So LinkedIn of course, and then 786 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:47,600 the website reenachooser.com and the Creative Lab is going to be 787 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,320 under that website when we we launch it very soon. 788 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,880 So yeah, renaturzer.com all. Right, well, stay tuned. 789 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,720 And for folks who are watching, listening, please leave us a 790 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:03,160 comment or a review. You can also send us messages. 791 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,720 We love voicemails as well at podcast at aig.org. 792 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,600 And we hope to see you or hear you in a future episode. 793 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,320 I'm Li Shan Huang. Until next time.