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Hello and welcome to the AIGA 
Design Podcast. 

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I'm Lee Sean Huang, Director of 
Design, Content and Learning 

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here at a IGA, the professional 
association for design. 

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I hope your summer's been going 
well. 

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I look forward to seeing you 
this fall at the AIGA Design 

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Conference in New York City. 
It's happening October 12th to 

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14th. 
Debbie Millman is returning as 

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the conference host this year, 
and she's been working hard with

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the AIG, A-Team and conference 
cochairs Jennifer Kinnon and 

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Bobby C Martin Junior. 
We are excited to offer you an 

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inspiring lineup of speakers, 
dialogues, workshops, add on 

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events and more across New York 
City. 

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So if you're interested in 
joining us, learn more and sign 

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up at aiga.org. 
Ticket prices are going to go up

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after September 7th, so be sure 
to register before then to save 

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money, but it's also looking 
like we're going to sell out 

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around that time, so definitely 
act fast. 

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If you're interested in joining 
us in person, we're also going 

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to be offering online tickets. 
If you want to watch the 

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mainstage speakers from home or 
wherever you find yourself in 

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the world. 
Again, aig.org is the place to 

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go. 
As for the podcast, we'll be 

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back in September with a new 
original episode, so stay tuned 

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for that. 
With those announcements out of 

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the way, the episode you're 
about to hear is a rebroadcast 

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of the Yellow Glitter podcast 
with Stephen Wakabayashi. 

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Yellow Glitter is a show that 
explores mindfulness through the

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eyes and soul of queer Asian 
perspectives. 

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Stephen had me on his show to 
talk about community Centered 

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design, collective change, and 
my midlife creative crisis. 

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You can find Yellow Glitter 
wherever you get podcasts, so go

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ahead and subscribe and listen 
to the other episodes of the 

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show there. 
Now without further ado, here is

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episode 42 of the Yellow Glitter
Podcast. 

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There's also something about the
iterative process which is 

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inherent to any creative 
process. 

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But when you're designing 
together, right? 

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It's like, how do you say share 
your sketches or share your your

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prototypes in a way that's 
authentic and allows for 

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participation, rather than 
waiting until you have something

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that's far more polished, which 
like people are afraid to then 

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mess with right that. 
That's also something to think 

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about in terms of how 
imperfection is also an 

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invitation for participation. 
Hi everyone, my name is Stephen 

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Wakabashi and you're listening 
to Yellow Glitter Mindfulness 

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through the eyes and Soul of 
creation Perspectives. 

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This episode we're joined by an 
extra special guest, Lee Shan 

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Huang. 
Lee Shan Huang. 

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EBay is a queer first generation
Taiwanese Cantonese American 

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designer and educator based in 
New York City and Providence. 

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He is the Director of Design, 
Content and Learning at a IGA 

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and a Cofounder Creative 
Director of FUSA. 

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He also teaches design and 
innovation at Parsons and SVA. 

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Welcome to the podcast. 
Thanks, Steven, and hi, 

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everyone. 
Hi. 

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I'm really excited to connect 
with you. 

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We were introduced through a 
mutual friend and it seems like 

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we've had many overlapping 
experiences and people and 

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spaces and I thought you would 
be an awesome guest and just 

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sharing a lot of what you're 
working on currently and what's 

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also coming up for you in your 
life right now. 

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I just wanted to ask first like 
what's been on your mind lately?

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What's coming up for you? 
Well, well, a lot of things, 

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certainly in our country and in 
the world. 

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But starting with the more 
personal bit, I recently went to

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my 20 year college reunion and 
so I'm 42 years old. 

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It's been 20 years since I 
graduated from undergrad at 

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Harvard. 
It was nice to see some people 

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who haven't seen in like over 10
years, some people in 20 years. 

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And I think it's just one of 
those life milestones, right, of

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like, I guess I am officially 
middle-aged and what do I want 

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to do with myself when I grew 
up? 

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And some of these questions kind
of continue even though I've 

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done cool things over 20 years 
since college, less so about 

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like comparing myself to my 
classmates because honestly, 

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I've taken sort of a path less 
traveled for a lot of Harvard 

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grads. 
So I don't think I have like the

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same life or career milestones 
to compare myself against. 

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It's more just a a personal 
thing. 

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Wow, it's really been 20 years. 
This ride is probably more than 

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half over. 
Well, let me ask first before we

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get into your like where, where 
has your classmates gone 

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primarily when you say like your
pathway deviated a little 

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differently from them? 
Yeah, I don't know what it's 

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like today for more recent 
grads, but certainly, you know, 

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for a class of 2003, a lot of 
people went into investment 

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banking. 
They went to work at the Goldman

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Sachs of the world or they went 
into working at McKinsey. 

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Like some people went straight 
into same Med school or Graduate

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School of some kind or academia.
You know, some people doing like

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teach for America type things. 
I went to teach English in Japan

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and then I got into design. 
And I'm happy to say more about 

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that story. 
But yeah, that that's kind of 

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what happened, right? 
Or people went into like law or 

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these kind of professions where 
you kind of know where the 

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milestones of success are, 
whether like you make partner or

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not or start your own law firm 
or or whatever, right. 

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Or the same at McKinsey type 
things. 

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And so I haven't had that. 
I've worked in government or 

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worked for my own studio or now 
I'm working in nonprofit and 

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academia. 
So it's more about for me a kind

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of portfolio career of having 
multiple things going on at the 

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same time rather than than these
like traditional milestones of 

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getting the corner office or 
making partner or what? 

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Yeah. 
Which is interesting because I 

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feel like the typical Asian path
would be exactly that, right? 

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Go to McKenzie, go be a doctor. 
Go be a lawyer. 

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And I'm just curious, even for 
you, stepping into the realm of 

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creativity and design, what has 
that journey been like, 

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especially in navigating Asian 
family dynamics? 

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Yeah, I think in the scheme of 
things, as it relates to career 

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stuff, my parents were pretty 
hands off compared to some of 

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the stereotypes. 
So both of my parents have 

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master's degrees. 
They ended up with a successful 

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small business selling computers
in suburban Phoenix, AZ, where I

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grew up, and they're retired 
now. 

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But as it related to growing up,
like they were really open to me

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doing creative things, I guess 
they're. 

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I did have the stereotypical 
Asian thing of going to piano 

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lessons and I also played cello 
for a while, so I did do that. 

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But besides that, I think I took
like 2 SAT kind of crash courses

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and practice tests and then I 
took it twice, got the same 

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score, and then the rest is kind
of history there. 

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But there was never any pressure
to like, oh, you have to major 

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in whatever, right? 
It was pretty hands off and kind

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of after college too. 
There was a period when I came 

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back from Japan where I was 
considering going to culinary 

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school, which I didn't end up 
doing, but they were pretty cool

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with that idea too. 
It wasn't that you have to do 

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XY&Z kind of thing. 
That's fascinating. 

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I'm curious, what do you think 
opened your parents up to you 

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having a more creative career 
pathway? 

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Because I I'm just curious, do 
you think it was like the 

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experience of their 
entrepreneurship, the forensic 

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computing? 
Because that's typically not the

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norm for a lot of Asian, Asian 
Americans. 

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Yeah. 
I mean, I think in some ways it 

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comes from a certain privilege, 
but also their own, I guess, 

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less linear journeys. 
Like my dad was actually a 

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chemical engineer and his 
specialty was in, I guess, what 

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we call fracking now. 
But he couldn't get a job in 

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that when he got out of grad 
school in the 80s and so ended 

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up with some business partners, 
some other Taiwanese Americans 

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who started like doing 
essentially import export stuff 

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of computer parts and then 
building their own PC's and 

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selling that to companies and 
and government offices and stuff

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like that. 
So I think there's already that 

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of like them seeing that you can
go study something but then life

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will throw you a curveball. 
And then they ended up being 

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super successful at that. 
So I think that that's a part of

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it. 
And then there's also, as a 

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result of that kind of success, 
I don't think they depend on me 

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to take care of them in a way. 
And I was talking to another 

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friend of mine who comes from an
immigrant family, in his case 

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from an Ecuadorian family. 
And you know, he does feel more 

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of a responsibility now as an 
adult to like take care of his 

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mom financially as she gets 
older and works less and is kind

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of transitioning into 
retirement. 

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But my parents are fine, you 
know, financially. 

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So I think part of that was also
like a a relief on that side. 

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So I guess you have part 
privilege and part like personal

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journey in terms of the hands 
off part. 

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And I think it's like, OK, I 
already did what they dreamt of,

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I guess by getting into Harvard.
And So what I do afterwards. 

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That is true. 
You got you want some Asian 

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child points, and I feel like 
that experience, especially with

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your family working with 
computers, was your introduction

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at a very early age to 
computers, right? 

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Yeah, definitely. 
My first computer was a 

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Commodore 64, which I guess for 
the young people listening to 

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this was like a computer that 
you plugged into your TVI. 

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Think they had like floppy disks
as well as these like cartridges

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that looks like Nintendo 
cartridges that you could plug 

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into there. 
They went to schools with Apple 

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two E's and stuff like that and 
Amigas to take a trip down 

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memory lane. 
But basically through that. 

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I worked there for a few summers
when I was in high school at my 

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parents company like assembling 
custom P C's. 

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But I also had the chance to 
take part in some like after 

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school programs and summer 
programs that were run out of 

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Arizona State University which 
are I think now defunct now, 

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which is kind of sad. 
But there was something called 

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Cap, the Center for academic 
precocity and it was essentially

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for like a gifted kids to learn 
different things. 

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And so I got to learn like 
computer programming with Lego 

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logos. 
You can make like this little 

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turtle draw on your screen or 
make your Lego motors move. 

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And then I also had the 
opportunity to take classes in 

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like TV production and video 
production as a teenager. 

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So having those opportunities 
from a relatively young age 

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where my kind of soft entry into
design and creative content 

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production. 
That's interesting. 

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And I'm curious, did you also 
have a career just doing 

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programming or did you go 
directly more so into creative 

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design career afterwards? 
Yeah, I did learn how to code a 

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little bit. 
I think I'm more like a designer

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who can do a little bit of 
coding, but I was never like a 

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developer or anything like that,
just to give some broader 

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brushstrokes. 
So it was undergrad at Harvard. 

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I actually studied political 
science and was interested in 

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going into, yeah, into like 
either diplomacy or the NGO 

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sector or something like that. 
And that was part of what 

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brought me to Japan. 
Both kind of. 

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Well, there's some family 
connection as well. 

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So being Taiwanese, my maternal 
grandparents actually spoke 

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Japanese because they grew up 
during the colonial era, but 

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they used it as like a secret 
language so that my mom and her 

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siblings wouldn't understand, 
right. 

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00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:54,100
So it kind of skipped a 
generation. 

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But we grew up around the food 
and other cultural things, so 

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there was that. 
Plus I wanted to have some more 

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experience living abroad and 
improving my language skills. 

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00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:07,820
So I went on the JET program, 
which is like a Japanese 

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government program to teach 
English. 

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There I would see, like, OK, do 
I want to go to grad school or 

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whatever kind of Fast forward a 
little bit. 

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I came back to the US, landed in
New York City, worked for a 

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00:12:19,470 --> 00:12:22,950
couple of years in the nonprofit
sector, doing essentially like 

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00:12:22,950 --> 00:12:26,470
political communications. 
So like, e-mail campaigns, early

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00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:30,190
social media kind of campaigns 
for environmental and human 

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rights causes. 
And then from there, that's when

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I was like, OK, well, I have 
this computer stuff going on, 

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most of it from like being a 
teenager and just messing 

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00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,240
around. 
I'd also like taught myself how 

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to do some graphic design, music
production, because I also 

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played in bands and so we made 
our own stickers and album 

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covers and stuff. 
But I felt like I needed more 

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kind of structured learning in 
that sense because this is, this

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is like 2006, 2007, 2008. 
So this is before like you could

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just watch pretty much any 
tutorial on YouTube. 

231
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Or that was pre YouTube. 
Those, like, have videos on 

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YouTube at that time? 
Yeah. 

233
00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:12,930
So it was more like YouTube was 
more like America's Funniest 

234
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Home Videos at that point than 
like the library of everything. 

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So I went to NYU basically for 
for grad school at a program 

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called ITP Interactive 
Telecommunications Program, 

237
00:13:25,210 --> 00:13:28,130
which is this kind of cryptic 
name for a program that was 

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founded in the late 70s, but 
it's basically like art, design,

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and technology. 
So I did that, worked at a 

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creative agency for a few years,
then started my own studio, 

241
00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:41,740
FUSA, and then also started 
teaching a couple years after I 

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graduated as well. 
So those are kind of how I got 

243
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into the design world more 
officially. 

244
00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:52,300
Yeah. 
That's so so fascinating and 

245
00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:56,420
that I'm also I see a lot of 
trends where often times, 

246
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especially people who weren't 
necessarily trained and designed

247
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as academic right undergrad or 
early on, that we do design as a

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part of just. 
Checking some of the boxes 

249
00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:09,460
right. 
In your case, creating stickers 

250
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for your bands, doing Flyers, 
and that allows folks such as 

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yourself to go, oh wow, this is 
actually fascinating and I'm 

252
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just curious, especially in 
doing the creative work and 

253
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pivoting into some of that stuff
after going into grad school. 

254
00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:31,340
I'm just curious in terms of 
just coming up for you of just 

255
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,140
even if starting your own agency
like what has? 

256
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,880
Led you to that point because 
often times, you know, some 

257
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,240
people are just so mirrored by 
like, Oh my God, there's so much

258
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,640
I can do that it's Even so 
overwhelming to start your home 

259
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,360
path in doing your own work. 
Yeah, I think part of it was 

260
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:58,080
necessity and part of it was 
also not knowing better. 

261
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,200
So that resulted in some maybe 
stupid bravery. 

262
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,550
So what I mean by that is I had 
been working at the same agency 

263
00:15:07,710 --> 00:15:10,430
since my second year of my 
master's program. 

264
00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:12,110
It's called Purpose. 
They're still around. 

265
00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:14,710
I think they they sold to a 
larger holding company, but they

266
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:17,590
still exist and I had a lot of 
opportunities there to grow. 

267
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:20,470
I was actually the 1st in house 
designer that they hired. 

268
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:24,670
I got to do some recruiting work
to build out a design and tech 

269
00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:26,950
team. 
I had the chance to help open 

270
00:15:26,950 --> 00:15:29,470
the office down in Rio de 
Janeiro, Brazil. 

271
00:15:29,470 --> 00:15:32,310
So I lived and worked in Brazil 
for a while as well. 

272
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:35,240
So it was a great opportunity 
and I learned a lot. 

273
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,000
I think after a few years, 
though, I had like, I guess 1/4 

274
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,480
life crisis then, since we're 
talking about my midlife crisis 

275
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,080
now, where I was like, OK, well,
what does this mean? 

276
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,000
It felt like my only path 
forward at purpose or at 

277
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,840
somebody else's agency was to 
either go into the kind of 

278
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,440
strategy account management side
of things or kind of double down

279
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,000
on my design skills, which I 
think wasn't necessarily a match

280
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000
for what they were looking for 
in a small team. 

281
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,480
So some other life factors 
happened. 

282
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,600
So my business partner, who's 
also now my husband, got laid 

283
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,920
off from a consulting job and 
had to move cities back to New 

284
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,760
York City. 
And then Hurricane Sandy 

285
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,080
happened. 
So we lost power for a few weeks

286
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,680
and then that was like a kind of
like, I guess shaking up the 

287
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,440
snow globe kind of moment in 
terms of what are you doing with

288
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,820
your life. 
And I don't know when you're 

289
00:16:28,820 --> 00:16:32,220
like sitting in the dark with no
TV or Internet or hot water and 

290
00:16:32,220 --> 00:16:34,460
like, why don't we just start 
our own design agency? 

291
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:37,780
Because things can only get 
better from here, I guess. 

292
00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:41,340
So that was one of the things. 
And I guess if I had known a 

293
00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:44,140
little bit better about what 
that would entail, I may not 

294
00:16:44,140 --> 00:16:45,940
have done it. 
So I think there is some sort of

295
00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:50,940
like advantage to slightly 
youthful ignorance in some 

296
00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:54,020
cases. 
Yeah, OK, off Tanger. 

297
00:16:54,020 --> 00:16:56,340
But like, were you South of 
Manhattan? 

298
00:16:56,910 --> 00:17:00,870
During Sandy, yeah, so we I was 
actually living. 

299
00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:03,590
I had my own studio apartment 
done in the financial district. 

300
00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:06,550
I was evacuated. 
The building flooded. 

301
00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:08,710
It was when the building 
flooded. 

302
00:17:09,069 --> 00:17:11,310
They actually told us, oh, well,
you can't move back for like at 

303
00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,630
least six months, if at all. 
Luckily it ended up being like 6

304
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:17,390
weeks and they, you know, 
brought in a generator and 

305
00:17:17,390 --> 00:17:18,869
pumped out a whole bunch of 
water. 

306
00:17:18,869 --> 00:17:21,510
And my apartment itself was on 
the 10th floor, so nothing 

307
00:17:21,710 --> 00:17:26,680
happened to my actual apartment.
And then my partner at the time 

308
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,400
was living in Stitetown, so on 
14th St. 

309
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,120
Ave. 
B. 

310
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:34,160
So it was still in darkness. 
And I had actually like I went 

311
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,000
to his place the night of the 
storm. 

312
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,240
So we saw and heard the flash of
light at the Con Ed plant and 

313
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,440
then like you know 2 minutes 
later like all lights out. 

314
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,320
So it was that. 
But his his family lives on Long

315
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,600
Island and we also had friends 
up in Harlem so we could like go

316
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,040
and shower and stuff. 
So it was Okay. 

317
00:17:54,030 --> 00:17:58,110
Yeah, yeah. 
And I feel like finally New York

318
00:17:58,110 --> 00:18:02,590
is starting to build past so 
much of because I'm also in 

319
00:18:02,590 --> 00:18:05,630
financial district right now and
finally like a lot of the stuff 

320
00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:08,830
that got decimated by Sandy or 
starting to finally get built up

321
00:18:08,830 --> 00:18:14,680
but aside from the fact. 
I really also love just the work

322
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,680
that you're doing today, which I
think is quite fascinating 

323
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,960
knowing your background, 
studying political science and 

324
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,120
also design. 
I feel that a lot of the stuff 

325
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:26,920
that you do now kind of is at 
the intersection and I'm just 

326
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,480
curious coming out of your 
studio and just seeing what was 

327
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,480
next for you? 
What made you want to pivot 

328
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,440
towards something that was more 
equity centered or thinking 

329
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,730
about how you're? 
Establishing equity for 

330
00:18:41,730 --> 00:18:46,690
communities around you? 
Yeah, I think even when I was 

331
00:18:46,690 --> 00:18:49,930
doing FUSA full time, our design
practice is what we called 

332
00:18:49,930 --> 00:18:53,450
community centered design. 
And I think that comes from my 

333
00:18:53,450 --> 00:18:57,250
background in essentially 
activism, community organizing. 

334
00:18:57,490 --> 00:19:00,530
For these other things I've done
before, whether it was for 

335
00:19:00,530 --> 00:19:04,610
cultural exchange, working in 
Japan or environmental human 

336
00:19:04,610 --> 00:19:08,250
rights issues, is that you have 
to both communicate and create 

337
00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:11,690
artifacts, whether it's the 
e-mail blast or the posters or 

338
00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:17,810
or whatnot, as well as enable 
people and encourage people to 

339
00:19:17,810 --> 00:19:20,210
take collective action on 
something in their community. 

340
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:23,170
So even at FUSA, we were 
starting to evolve in that 

341
00:19:23,170 --> 00:19:24,970
direction. 
Obviously we did some corporate 

342
00:19:24,970 --> 00:19:28,650
work and some startup work to 
pay the bills, but we started 

343
00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:32,930
pivoting into some government 
contracting, some service design

344
00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:35,290
and codesign with various 
communities. 

345
00:19:35,450 --> 00:19:38,920
Designing public services in New
York is an example of that. 

346
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,480
And then kind of a few things, 
right? 

347
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,040
Like in 2018 my husband went 
back to school at MIT, so we put

348
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,120
our studio more on like a side 
hustle kind of mode. 

349
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,560
I took a job at a IGA, which is 
the oldest and largest 

350
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,480
professional association for 
design. 

351
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,880
I'm kind of in a hybrid, like 
community and content and 

352
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,280
education role there. 
And then I've been teaching this

353
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,040
whole time, so there's what I do
in my design work. 

354
00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:10,500
And then more recently, I was 
elected to be part of the 

355
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,420
bargaining committee at the New 
School, which is where the 

356
00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:16,140
Parsons School of Design is 
based and where I've been 

357
00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:19,740
teaching since 2016. 
And I thought it was like, just 

358
00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:24,100
basically, actually, two of the 
organizers from our union were 

359
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:29,500
on my podcast at a IGA. 
And we just kind of kept in 

360
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:32,140
touch after they were on my 
podcast. 

361
00:20:32,140 --> 00:20:35,450
And they're like, oh, do you 
want to run for this bargaining 

362
00:20:35,450 --> 00:20:37,770
committee thing? 
And I said yes, I thought it was

363
00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:40,730
like, OK, we're just going to 
negotiate a contract and I'll 

364
00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:44,610
get to learn about how this 
stuff works and fine, you know, 

365
00:20:44,610 --> 00:20:49,010
a few hours over a few months. 
And then it Long story short it 

366
00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:53,410
kind of spiraled a little bit in
terms of the contentiousness of 

367
00:20:53,410 --> 00:20:56,530
the contract between the part 
time faculty which make up 

368
00:20:57,010 --> 00:21:00,010
nearly 90% of the teachers at 
the new school and the 

369
00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:03,260
university management. 
We ended up going on strike for 

370
00:21:03,260 --> 00:21:08,620
25 days last fall in November, 
December, which is the longest 

371
00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:13,220
adjunct faculty strike in U.S. 
history and then ended up 

372
00:21:13,220 --> 00:21:16,020
getting a contract which was a 
compromise but was 

373
00:21:16,060 --> 00:21:18,540
overwhelmingly approved by our 
membership. 

374
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:22,260
So I think I see that actually 
as an extension of my design 

375
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:25,500
work of like essentially how do 
you create power and how do you 

376
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:29,530
exercise power collectively and 
more traditional forms of 

377
00:21:29,530 --> 00:21:32,730
designer part of that in terms 
of like social media posts that 

378
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:36,290
I was creating, I was doing 
communications, PR stuff with 

379
00:21:36,290 --> 00:21:39,530
the press, making videos and 
stuff like that to communicate 

380
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:42,570
with our different stakeholders.
But I think the larger picture 

381
00:21:42,570 --> 00:21:44,770
really is the the building power
bit. 

382
00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:50,620
Which I think is really. 
I think it's really the essence 

383
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:56,060
of creativity, right where we 
were having a discussion and 

384
00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:58,620
just creating some show notes 
for today's podcast. 

385
00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:01,180
And one thing that came up in 
our discussion right was this 

386
00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:04,940
construct of creativity and what
is it for? 

387
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:09,780
And it seems as though 
creativity is also paramount to 

388
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:14,260
shifting where communities go, 
how we can reimagine our lives 

389
00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:17,260
and break out of existing 
systems. 

390
00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:19,810
And creativity is. 
Not just something where you 

391
00:22:20,010 --> 00:22:23,370
draw pretty pictures, right, or 
create a pretty website, but it 

392
00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:28,130
is so, so important as a part of
changing trajectories for 

393
00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:30,890
communities. 
And I wanted to ask you just 

394
00:22:30,890 --> 00:22:34,810
like, what were some things that
come up for you, especially in 

395
00:22:34,810 --> 00:22:39,330
talking about that as a this 
aspect of creativity? 

396
00:22:40,450 --> 00:22:43,010
Well, there's a lot I can say 
about that. 

397
00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:45,490
I'm thinking about how to 
organize that a bit. 

398
00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:49,690
The first thing I'll say from 
the personal perspective is it's

399
00:22:49,690 --> 00:22:54,330
actually taken me these 20 years
to figure out how to connect my 

400
00:22:54,370 --> 00:22:58,410
undergrad background in 
political science with design. 

401
00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:02,130
I thought it was like, OK, I'm 
just taking like a like a big 

402
00:23:02,130 --> 00:23:03,930
pivot and just leaving that 
stuff behind. 

403
00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:06,970
But actually it's been been 
cumulative and I've actually 

404
00:23:06,970 --> 00:23:10,090
just been incorporating that 
into my design practice or 

405
00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:13,410
creating a hybrid practice. 
So that's one thing, just like 

406
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:19,750
having a realization of that for
me personally and my message for

407
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:24,110
designers thinking about this is
that we often think about design

408
00:23:24,110 --> 00:23:27,430
in terms of like pixel 
perfection or building products 

409
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:30,030
and all of these sort of things 
which are important on the craft

410
00:23:30,030 --> 00:23:32,310
side. 
But ultimately it's about power,

411
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:34,510
right? 
In a capitalist context, it is 

412
00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:39,110
about the return on investment 
for investors, for your company 

413
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:41,190
making profit and all of that 
sort of stuff. 

414
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:43,150
But that's just one form of 
power. 

415
00:23:43,150 --> 00:23:45,350
You can also think about 
building power in terms of what 

416
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:48,830
you enable your users as 
individuals or as members of 

417
00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:50,350
communities, allowing them to 
do. 

418
00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:54,750
What is social media empowered 
in terms of people being able to

419
00:23:55,270 --> 00:24:00,070
build livelihoods or to create 
political movements, etcetera. 

420
00:24:00,630 --> 00:24:04,590
So there's that part of it. 
And then also thinking about 

421
00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:09,100
design as more than like a 
mirror that reflects trends and 

422
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:10,460
things that are going on in our 
society. 

423
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:14,620
It's both that and a map, right,
in terms of a road map for where

424
00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:18,020
we can go. 
And so thinking about design as 

425
00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:21,140
future making as well, which I 
think you've alluded to is like 

426
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,900
where putting something out 
there at a product, a service, 

427
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:27,860
whatever that may be that didn't
exist before. 

428
00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:29,220
So how does that change the 
world? 

429
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:32,540
How does that create new forms 
of possibilities for people? 

430
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:35,990
So that's kind of how I think 
about it personally and 

431
00:24:36,270 --> 00:24:38,990
philosophically and I'm happy to
go down any of these other 

432
00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:40,430
threads and examples if you 
want. 

433
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:44,230
Yeah. 
I think there's so much to 

434
00:24:44,270 --> 00:24:45,950
there. 
And I'm just curious, like which

435
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:48,950
one out of all of them do you 
personally resonate with, 

436
00:24:49,470 --> 00:24:51,310
especially at this moment of 
time in your life? 

437
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:57,670
I think in light of current 
events and also my recent 

438
00:24:57,950 --> 00:25:01,590
experience with the strike and 
the contract negotiations at the

439
00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:06,390
New School, I've been thinking a
lot about design education and 

440
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:10,190
the role of design educators. 
And what I mean by recent events

441
00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:14,350
is the Supreme Court cases, in 
particular the one striking down

442
00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:17,950
student loan relief and the one 
striking down affirmative 

443
00:25:17,950 --> 00:25:21,230
action. 
And for me, as it relates to my 

444
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:27,190
corner of the world is design 
education and who gets to be a 

445
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:30,430
design right? 
Who gets to go to design school,

446
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:33,230
but also who is teaching design 
school? 

447
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:38,750
And some of the issues in both 
the business model in terms of 

448
00:25:38,910 --> 00:25:41,910
how we pay for it, how the 
people who teach are paid or how

449
00:25:41,910 --> 00:25:45,270
little we're paid, as well as 
the mental model of how do we 

450
00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:47,790
even think about college 
education, right. 

451
00:25:47,790 --> 00:25:51,390
How do we think about it as more
than just like this individual 

452
00:25:52,430 --> 00:25:55,870
good or investment in yourself, 
but something that's collective?

453
00:25:55,910 --> 00:25:58,590
And how does that open up 
different ways of thinking about

454
00:25:58,590 --> 00:26:02,270
how we finance it and how we 
value it as a society? 

455
00:26:02,270 --> 00:26:05,970
So I've been thinking a lot 
about that while still kind of 

456
00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:09,330
working in an imperfect system, 
teaching as an adjunct, because 

457
00:26:09,330 --> 00:26:11,850
I want to work with students. 
And there are parts of it that 

458
00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:15,330
do work right in terms of 
allowing me to be in the 

459
00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:18,770
classroom and do what I like. 
And having taught for more than 

460
00:26:18,770 --> 00:26:21,930
a decade now, like I have former
students, we're now kind of 

461
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:25,290
professional peers. 
Being a part of that is, is also

462
00:26:25,290 --> 00:26:28,930
kind of amazing to be building 
out the the next generation. 

463
00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:32,480
So I think I'm, I'm thinking a 
lot about that as it relates to 

464
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,400
how we started this podcast 
talking about my mid career 

465
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,240
crisis of sorts. 
So that's the positive end of 

466
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,360
things. 
But also seeing that, especially

467
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,600
coming out of the strike last 
year that we won a battle, but 

468
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,320
there's still very much an 
uphill battle, I guess, there or

469
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,200
sort of headwinds that we're 
facing in terms of the larger 

470
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,560
economic situation, in terms of 
inflation and cost of living, 

471
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,490
but also the underlying business
models that are still very 

472
00:27:00,490 --> 00:27:03,050
imperfect as it relates to 
equity and and whatnot. 

473
00:27:03,050 --> 00:27:05,570
So you're happy to talk more 
about that, but I think that's 

474
00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:07,530
what I've been thinking about a 
lot. 

475
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:11,810
Yeah. 
And when you talk about 

476
00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:15,530
representation, are there any 
specific communities that come 

477
00:27:15,530 --> 00:27:20,930
to mind that should have a 
bigger seat in the design realm?

478
00:27:22,050 --> 00:27:26,130
Yeah. 
So at a IGA, we have done some 

479
00:27:26,130 --> 00:27:28,610
polling in the past. 
I think the last one was from 

480
00:27:28,610 --> 00:27:34,210
20/19 and our design census and 
we found that well not 

481
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:39,410
surprisingly design still tends 
to be overwhelmingly white even 

482
00:27:39,410 --> 00:27:41,010
compared to the general 
population. 

483
00:27:41,010 --> 00:27:44,450
I think Asian Americans, and 
this is without drilling down 

484
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:47,250
into what Asian American even 
means, right, which is also very

485
00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:50,290
diverse term, but Asian 
Americans are slightly 

486
00:27:50,530 --> 00:27:54,890
overrepresented. 
And then we know that black and 

487
00:27:54,890 --> 00:27:58,830
Latino designers are highly 
underrepresented compared to the

488
00:27:58,830 --> 00:28:02,110
general population in the US of 
those communities. 

489
00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:05,510
So that's an issue. 
But then just kind of looking at

490
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:10,910
my corner of things, what we see
is that actually most of my 

491
00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:14,190
students are Asian, but they're 
usually from Asia, whether 

492
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:16,790
they're like from China or from 
Korea. 

493
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:18,830
They're more likely to be from 
those places than from, like, 

494
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:21,310
Chinatown, even though I've 
taught in, like downtown New 

495
00:28:21,310 --> 00:28:25,150
York City universities, right 
from Flushing or or these other 

496
00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:27,890
communities. 
So again, there's all sorts of 

497
00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:30,810
disambiguation we can do with 
some of these statistics, but 

498
00:28:30,810 --> 00:28:32,770
that's just to paint some broad 
brush strokes. 

499
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:35,290
But if you look at who's 
teaching design, that's 

500
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:38,210
certainly not represented right.
I've had students say to me it's

501
00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:41,130
like, oh, wow, you're the first 
one of the first Asian 

502
00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:43,570
professors I've had in design 
school. 

503
00:28:43,570 --> 00:28:47,170
So that's certainly something 
that we could improve on as 

504
00:28:47,170 --> 00:28:49,250
well. 
And that goes back to some of 

505
00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:52,690
this business model of like 
adjunct teaching, right, Which a

506
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:57,900
lot of design schools depend on.
I think in the ideal world 

507
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:02,620
scenario, it does make sense in 
terms of OK, we want working 

508
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:05,860
professionals in design or other
creative industries to teach 

509
00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:09,420
part time so students get like 
real life industry professionals

510
00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:12,500
in the classroom. 
Where this starts to break down 

511
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:16,500
is like one just because you're 
good at what you do in a 

512
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:19,100
creative field, in design or 
whatever else doesn't mean 

513
00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:22,620
you're a good teacher at that. 
And there's often not a whole 

514
00:29:22,620 --> 00:29:25,160
lot of support for that. 
So there's there's high 

515
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,160
turnover, right? 
Or people get busy with their 

516
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,480
primary careers and then they 
stop teaching, etcetera. 

517
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,840
In my case, because I was 
teaching before I became a 

518
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,120
designer, I was able to 
incorporate that, and I think 

519
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,160
that's one of the reasons behind
my longevity in teaching. 

520
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,600
But the reality is that a lot of
adjunct instructors in design 

521
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,240
and in other creative fields are
depending on their teaching jobs

522
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,040
to pay for their health 
insurance, to pay their rent. 

523
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,400
I know while they're trying to 
make their small businesses 

524
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,080
work, whether it's in fashion or
graphic design or as performing 

525
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,440
artists and whatnot, which is a 
lot of my colleagues when we 

526
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,840
were organizing our strike, 
their stories about how they 

527
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,040
handle things. 
So it's some, in some ways, I'm 

528
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,320
very privileged, and that way I 
don't depend on teaching to pay 

529
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:13,920
for my health insurance or pay 
my bills. 

530
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,800
I do because I want to. 
But I also think that we can't 

531
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,040
just depend on people like me to
teach, because that's also an 

532
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,150
equity and diversity issue for 
our students, right? 

533
00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:27,750
We can't just have the most 
privileged designers and 

534
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:30,950
creative professionals teaching 
students, because that's not a 

535
00:30:31,550 --> 00:30:34,670
fair representation of what it's
like to be a designer or 

536
00:30:34,670 --> 00:30:37,430
creative professional. 
And obviously there's the 

537
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:41,190
there's going to be like the 
gender and kind of racial ethnic

538
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:44,390
biases built into that. 
If we're depending on just the 

539
00:30:44,390 --> 00:30:48,350
most privileged designers who 
can afford to teach doing that. 

540
00:30:48,390 --> 00:30:51,870
And then if you go too far the 
other way of like having 

541
00:30:51,870 --> 00:30:58,200
precarious teachers, then the 
education suffers as well in 

542
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,480
terms of like, we're only paid 
by our contact hours or we were 

543
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,680
until our new contract. 
And what that means is it may 

544
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,200
look like we're paid a lot on 
paper, like a 127 one, $35 per 

545
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,040
hour, but that's just in 
classroom time, right? 

546
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,200
You might spend like 10 hours 
outside of class prepping for 

547
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,880
your lessons, grading student 
work, doing office hours. 

548
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,140
All of that is like or was 
uncompensated time. 

549
00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:26,300
So if you do the math, it ends 
up being like minimum wage work 

550
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:28,700
for some people. 
And So what that means is if a 

551
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:31,740
student wants like some extra 
help with office hours, like 

552
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,780
sometimes the teachers are like,
sorry, I can't afford to meet 

553
00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:37,380
with you, right? 
Or maybe they wouldn't say that 

554
00:31:37,380 --> 00:31:41,940
so so straight up, but like, 
that is a reality, right? 

555
00:31:41,940 --> 00:31:44,860
And then the students are still 
paying like $50,000 a year to go

556
00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:47,970
to these design schools. 
So that's what I mean in terms 

557
00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:50,210
of giving these concrete 
examples about the business 

558
00:31:50,210 --> 00:31:54,370
model behind it and how a lot of
it is run on these myths that 

559
00:31:54,370 --> 00:31:57,770
don't necessarily reflect 
reality and our aspirations. 

560
00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:03,130
Yeah, I think you touched on a 
lot of great points. 

561
00:32:03,530 --> 00:32:07,530
What's resonating most with me 
first is there's broken systems 

562
00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:10,450
in academia that we really need 
to challenge, especially with 

563
00:32:10,450 --> 00:32:13,370
the contact hours or how 
teachers are being paid. 

564
00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:18,370
It doesn't feel as though you're
incentivizing good teaching or 

565
00:32:18,370 --> 00:32:21,170
good curriculum creation or good
interaction with students, 

566
00:32:21,170 --> 00:32:23,290
right? 
You're almost incentivizing do 

567
00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:26,610
the bare minimum because you're 
going to get still paid the same

568
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:31,330
amount regardless. 
And along the lines of that, how

569
00:32:31,330 --> 00:32:34,450
often have we right going back 
to oh, you're bringing a 

570
00:32:34,450 --> 00:32:37,650
professional in. 
How often you know you and I, 

571
00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:40,410
I'm sure we were and everyone 
listening. 

572
00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:42,890
You can name that boss, that 
colleague that. 

573
00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:46,030
It's just like. 
Yeah, I really struggle to work 

574
00:32:46,030 --> 00:32:51,590
with you and that. 
And it's like, how did you get 

575
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:49,150
here? 
And I imagine them being a 

576
00:32:49,150 --> 00:32:53,030
teacher, right? 
Yeah. 

577
00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:56,910
Exactly. 
And this whole concept of, you 

578
00:32:56,910 --> 00:32:59,670
know, now it's just a 
competition of different 

579
00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:03,630
accolades or people who've done 
certain things, getting these 

580
00:33:03,630 --> 00:33:06,790
position of teachership and it 
just becomes a little bit 

581
00:33:06,790 --> 00:33:09,990
contentious in terms of like, 
well, what are you really 

582
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:13,990
championing, right? 
And I think especially if we 

583
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:18,390
want to change the fundamental 
way that we're bringing in 

584
00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:21,990
students, bring in new concepts,
so we also have to fundamentally

585
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:23,870
change who's doing the teaching 
too. 

586
00:33:24,590 --> 00:33:28,190
Totally 100% agree. 
Yeah. 

587
00:33:28,830 --> 00:33:31,470
Also, I've had many 
conversations with other 

588
00:33:31,470 --> 00:33:35,830
instructors too in the design 
industry and a lot of the stuff 

589
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:38,070
that's even codified right in 
the textbooks. 

590
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,960
And the stuff that you're 
teaching is very white, CIS, 

591
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,680
Eurocentric perspectives of 
design. 

592
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,080
And what's so fascinating with 
even where I'm reading 

593
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,000
personally, a ton of books by 
other diverse, by POC, queer by 

594
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,000
POC design authors is starting 
to understand creativity exists,

595
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,080
whether we don't want to 
acknowledge it or not. 

596
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,960
And that the process of thinking
about creativity, solutioning, 

597
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,650
all this stuff. 
Has already been around native 

598
00:34:09,650 --> 00:34:13,889
tribes, ancestral tribes, people
from different nations and 

599
00:34:13,889 --> 00:34:17,730
different places have had a way 
that they're creating their own 

600
00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:22,610
version of creativity, community
organizing, problem solving. 

601
00:34:22,889 --> 00:34:26,889
But we're oftentimes leaning 
more towards a lot of these, 

602
00:34:26,889 --> 00:34:30,610
like white Eurocentric 
perspectives that the craziest 

603
00:34:30,610 --> 00:34:33,530
part was one of my volunteers. 
I put together slide. 

604
00:34:34,090 --> 00:34:36,690
In teaching one of her 
curriculums, and the intention 

605
00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:40,090
wasn't to point out what we were
trying to do. 

606
00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:43,810
We're just like, okay, let's 
just, you know, give honor to 

607
00:34:43,810 --> 00:34:46,570
some of the people who set up 
the, you know, the realm of user

608
00:34:46,570 --> 00:34:50,650
experience. 
And when we saw all the faces on

609
00:34:50,650 --> 00:34:54,969
the slides, we're like, they all
look the same, right? 

610
00:34:56,810 --> 00:35:00,610
We're like, I think we need to 
change the message of this 

611
00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:03,580
slide. 
Yeah, I think there's definitely

612
00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:07,620
work that needs to be done in 
terms of challenging these sort 

613
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:10,860
of like important historical 
figures and developments, 

614
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:13,860
whether it's like the Bauhaus or
how user experience design came 

615
00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:17,860
about and like recognizing that 
history, but also recognizing 

616
00:35:17,860 --> 00:35:22,300
that like these things that came
out of a certain place and time 

617
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:25,420
and culture are not universal, 
right. 

618
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:29,580
And that even design as we know 
it right in the quote UN quote 

619
00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:33,350
Western context comes out of the
Industrial Revolution. 

620
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:38,550
And this separation or this 
bifurcation from like maybe 

621
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:41,510
traditional craft where the 
fashion designer was also making

622
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:44,510
the dresses or the Shoemaker was
like designing the shoes and 

623
00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:47,750
making them to now we have 
machines or now we have assembly

624
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:50,590
lines of people making things 
like the planning is now 

625
00:35:50,590 --> 00:35:54,590
separate from the baking, right.
And so that's one context. 

626
00:35:54,590 --> 00:35:59,350
But then there's design in like 
the most general human context, 

627
00:35:59,350 --> 00:36:04,760
which is intentionally shaping 
our environment to create some 

628
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,840
sort of desired result, right. 
And from that, that connects to 

629
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,080
what you were mentioning before 
of like traditional cultures, 

630
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,480
indigenous cultures, all of 
these things that don't have to 

631
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,640
be necessarily industrial or 
western, but are still very much

632
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,960
designed. 
And how do we. 

633
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:25,320
Yeah, recognize that and broaden
the cannon, if you will, and 

634
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,640
recognize the sort of diversity 
within what design signifies. 

635
00:36:30,490 --> 00:36:33,130
Absolutely. 
And it's so fascinating too 

636
00:36:33,130 --> 00:36:37,490
where it's just I feel that at 
least the western lens community

637
00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:40,650
design is becoming a little bit 
more trendy over the past few 

638
00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:42,650
years. 
But if you look at it just like 

639
00:36:42,650 --> 00:36:47,730
the way indigenous communities 
had Co created with one another 

640
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:51,730
and not even having specific 
territorial lines and this whole

641
00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:54,610
blurring of just like what does 
even community mean? 

642
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:59,190
We. 
Don't realize so much innovation

643
00:36:59,190 --> 00:37:04,510
that we've actually lost in only
highlighting certain communities

644
00:37:04,750 --> 00:37:09,070
specifically why it's his 
Eurocentric perspectives as the 

645
00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:13,030
champion And so at least for 
myself in a lot of the work that

646
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:17,630
I do I'm always pushing for 
people to brought in the horizon

647
00:37:17,630 --> 00:37:19,900
and. 
What's funny was at one point in

648
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:23,460
my career, I was all about, you 
know, naming these top companies

649
00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:25,420
and the design methodology that 
they had. 

650
00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:30,420
And now I'm like, whenever they 
come up, my skin just crawls and

651
00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:34,460
I'm like, you know, let's, let's
change even the wording or like 

652
00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:38,740
how we're honoring some of these
practices and let's move away 

653
00:37:38,740 --> 00:37:42,780
from continuously highlighting 
certain organizations, corporate

654
00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:46,740
structures of doing specific 
methodologies of design. 

655
00:37:46,740 --> 00:37:50,630
But also just like. 
Broadening it and I think it's a

656
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:52,550
big learning experience for 
especially. 

657
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:56,670
I find people just entering the 
foray of design because you're 

658
00:37:56,670 --> 00:38:00,270
just like the allure of oh, I 
want to be the very best. 

659
00:38:01,470 --> 00:38:03,350
You keep chasing after this 
goal. 

660
00:38:03,830 --> 00:38:07,870
But I'm just curious especially 
for folks who are in the 

661
00:38:07,870 --> 00:38:11,230
creative realm, some of our 
listeners in terms of just like 

662
00:38:12,590 --> 00:38:15,590
taking some of the learnings and
some of the things that. 

663
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,040
Have been a part of your journey
of how do you create more 

664
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,120
equitable spaces? 
How are you teaching more 

665
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,920
equitably or creating more 
equitable results with equity 

666
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,920
center design practices? 
What are some of your 

667
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,800
recommendation or tips of ways 
that people can approach their 

668
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,760
work or even just shift their 
thinking? 

669
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,920
Yeah, I guess I'll give it like 
a really tactical example 

670
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,140
because I think it's a way to be
concrete, which is often we 

671
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:47,860
think about workshops or 
codesign sessions as one of 

672
00:38:47,860 --> 00:38:52,020
these kind of keystone touch 
points interactions within a 

673
00:38:52,220 --> 00:38:54,820
community centered design 
process, right. 

674
00:38:54,820 --> 00:38:58,380
So you have different 
stakeholders in the room, but I 

675
00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:01,580
think the first point here is to
like just recognize the 

676
00:39:02,140 --> 00:39:05,340
different power dynamics in that
room, right. 

677
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:08,310
So there may be people who have 
great ideas, but there's already

678
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:10,990
what I call the first filters. 
Like they don't share those 

679
00:39:10,990 --> 00:39:15,990
ideas because they don't want to
be seen as like stupid or absurd

680
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:18,910
or whatever by their peers, by 
their boss, whatever. 

681
00:39:18,910 --> 00:39:21,070
So it's like, OK, just because 
you have the diversity in the 

682
00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:24,550
room doesn't mean that these 
ideas are available. 

683
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:27,470
Or rather than like safe spaces,
I like to talk about brave 

684
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:28,310
spaces. 
Right? 

685
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:34,070
So how do you create a few ways?
Is to think about the different 

686
00:39:34,350 --> 00:39:37,440
ways that allow people to 
contribute at their best, right 

687
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,760
in a lot of these formats, right
Of like codesign or 

688
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,760
brainstorming all of that. 
They tend to favor people who 

689
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,480
are like extroverted and quote 
UN quote confident, which often 

690
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,160
means like dominant groups. 
Like tends to favor like white 

691
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,720
males who have advanced degrees.
Not all the time, but like that.

692
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:00,000
That's the sort of bias, right? 
Or that's tipping the scale. 

693
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,640
So how do you bring in other 
ways for people to either 

694
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,720
contribute anonymously? 
By be writing something down, 

695
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,350
putting it in a box? 
So even having like quiet Time, 

696
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:13,430
certainly with the normalization
of more remote work because of 

697
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:15,590
the pandemic that's helped a 
little bit of like okay, you 

698
00:40:15,590 --> 00:40:18,910
don't have to like physically 
write the post it and then it go

699
00:40:18,910 --> 00:40:21,390
up to the whiteboard, right. 
It's like it's easier and like 

700
00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:25,230
fig jam or barrel or whatever to
just like contribute that way 

701
00:40:25,230 --> 00:40:27,510
without it being like okay. 
You have to like put yourself 

702
00:40:27,550 --> 00:40:29,750
out there physically to 
participate. 

703
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:32,350
So I think there's technologies 
and ways of doing this through 

704
00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:36,320
facilitation that allow like 
introverts, extroverts, people 

705
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,080
from different cultural 
backgrounds to participate. 

706
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,720
And so it's about challenging 
these defaults or having 

707
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:43,240
multiple pathways to 
participate. 

708
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,800
I think that's my general and 
also very tactical advice that I

709
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,960
would give for that. 
Yeah. 

710
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,840
And I I think that's so 
important especially while 

711
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,280
you're saying it's like really 
tactical. 

712
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,240
I feel like oftentimes we're 
trying to solution and this 

713
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:00,480
isn't really for just 
specifically designs, it's just 

714
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,790
like working to totally. 
Where I think often times 

715
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:07,550
there's also trying to think 
about the solution, but the 

716
00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:11,550
reflection is, before we get 
into the solution, who are we 

717
00:41:11,550 --> 00:41:13,510
meeting with? 
Who are we working with? 

718
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:18,710
And one workshop that we've been
doing also on ours, my side is 

719
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:22,230
doing an assessment of just like
what are your own individual 

720
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:25,750
intersectional identities, you 
know, what identities you 

721
00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:27,230
encompass. 
That's visual. 

722
00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:30,870
That's invisible. 
And also doing assessment of 

723
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:35,310
your team and using those as 
specific data points. 

724
00:41:35,350 --> 00:41:39,350
I have you to analyze what you 
may be missing. 

725
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:42,830
And oftentimes, like the example
is in tech, right? 

726
00:41:42,830 --> 00:41:48,430
You might have diversity in skin
tones and diversity in gender, 

727
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:51,910
but when you look at, for 
example, socioeconomic status, 

728
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:55,750
everyone is pretty much at the 
same socioeconomic status, 

729
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:58,470
making the same decision more 
often. 

730
00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:01,900
Decisions that affect people at 
a much lower socioeconomic 

731
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:05,540
status. 
And so it's an interesting 

732
00:42:05,540 --> 00:42:09,580
practice that I love that you 
just center as a part of it, 

733
00:42:09,580 --> 00:42:14,180
which is reflecting on just 
who's having a discussion and 

734
00:42:14,180 --> 00:42:18,500
who's actually creating so that 
we can usher in new ideas and 

735
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:21,580
experiences. 
Totally, yeah. 

736
00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:24,700
And it's also like when we think
about service design and systems

737
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:28,630
design in general, right? 
Who's closest to these touch 

738
00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:30,590
points? 
Who's closest to these problems,

739
00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:32,350
right. 
And there's only so much like 

740
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:34,830
undercover bosses stuff that you
can do. 

741
00:42:34,990 --> 00:42:38,030
But it's like, I mean, I'll just
use my own example of, like, 

742
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:40,870
adjunct professors, right? 
Like, we're actually in the 

743
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:44,430
classroom, whereas these 
administrators often are not, 

744
00:42:44,430 --> 00:42:45,790
right? 
It's been a long time since 

745
00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:47,390
they've been in the classroom. 
And they're thinking more in 

746
00:42:47,390 --> 00:42:49,630
terms of, like, Excel 
spreadsheets, right? 

747
00:42:49,630 --> 00:42:53,790
And like abstractions rather 
than, like what actually works 

748
00:42:53,790 --> 00:42:56,350
in the classroom. 
So there's things like that as 

749
00:42:56,350 --> 00:42:59,680
well of like who's closest to 
something and how do we value 

750
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,440
that, even if they're not at the
top of these corporate or 

751
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,440
organizational pyramids? 
Yeah. 

752
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,000
And I'm curious if just looking 
at the work that you're doing 

753
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,120
and just being so open minded 
and welcoming for other 

754
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,560
communities. 
I'm just curious if also your 

755
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,080
queer identity has played a role
in just shaping the way you're 

756
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,720
starting to usher in some of 
these new experiences and ideas 

757
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:28,200
for yourself even. 
Totally. 

758
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,080
I think like as it relates to 
like creativity and innovation, 

759
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,440
queerness is kind of a 
superpower. 

760
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,800
And I I said that partially, 
jokingly and I'll explain why. 

761
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,560
You know, like in on one side I 
don't want to sort of like 

762
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,040
exoticize like the the creative 
queer person stereotype, right. 

763
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,360
But on the other, there is 
something in terms of queerness 

764
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:57,320
as a political project that is 
about challenging norms and like

765
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,480
quote UN quote best practices of
how we organize ourselves as a 

766
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,240
society, right, or as a company 
at the micro level. 

767
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,800
And so that sort of norm 
challenging is essential to 

768
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,240
innovation. 
And I say this also just as a 

769
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,440
facilitator and a trainer, where
I've been brought into companies

770
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,040
who want to learn how to be more
innovative and learn design 

771
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,040
thinking. 
And it's OK. 

772
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,040
Well, you can take this workshop
with me and you can learn about 

773
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,360
some of these frameworks and 
some of these methods. 

774
00:44:25,860 --> 00:44:27,900
But ultimately you have to 
change the culture and what you 

775
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:30,940
do, right, As the people want 
often the results of innovation,

776
00:44:30,940 --> 00:44:34,580
but they don't want to do what 
it takes to be innovative in 

777
00:44:34,580 --> 00:44:38,340
terms of like changing business 
as usual or being a little silly

778
00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:41,380
sometimes and kind of getting to
that point right. 

779
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:44,500
And I think you mentioned like 
intersectionality before, which 

780
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,100
again is one of those like super
loaded buzzwords. 

781
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:51,460
But what it means for me in this
context too is like being first 

782
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:54,710
generation Taiwanese American. 
And like, even my Taiwanese 

783
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:57,350
side, like my dad's family is 
Cantonese and my grandparents 

784
00:44:57,350 --> 00:44:59,110
were from China. 
So, like, my family was already 

785
00:44:59,110 --> 00:45:01,190
multicultural before we were 
American. 

786
00:45:01,590 --> 00:45:04,270
Like having come to the US four 
years old. 

787
00:45:04,270 --> 00:45:07,590
Like, I speak English like 
somebody who's born in Arizona. 

788
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:10,430
So there's like the sort of 
insider, outsider kind of 

789
00:45:10,430 --> 00:45:12,230
perspective. 
Or it's like Taiwanese people 

790
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:15,230
think I'm totally American, but 
then there's still the, like, 

791
00:45:15,350 --> 00:45:17,550
perpetual foreigner thing in 
America. 

792
00:45:17,550 --> 00:45:20,670
So there's that part. 
But that's also a superpower as 

793
00:45:20,670 --> 00:45:24,370
it relates to queerness, right? 
Depending on passing in some 

794
00:45:24,490 --> 00:45:27,850
cases, not passing in other 
contexts, but being able to 

795
00:45:28,490 --> 00:45:32,290
understand that because often 
times when we talk about norms 

796
00:45:32,290 --> 00:45:34,850
and how you challenge norms, 
it's like the water that we swim

797
00:45:34,850 --> 00:45:36,730
in as fish, right. 
And to be like, I guess 

798
00:45:37,010 --> 00:45:41,410
partially amphibian, if you work
on this example, right, this 

799
00:45:41,490 --> 00:45:44,810
metaphor, it allows you to see 
what these norms are. 

800
00:45:44,810 --> 00:45:47,730
So you can challenge. 
So yeah, lean into that. 

801
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:53,940
Wait, I I've never actually 
heard that analogy, but I love 

802
00:45:53,940 --> 00:45:57,180
it. 
Because what comes up for me is,

803
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:58,780
is that quote right? 
Where it's like, how do you 

804
00:45:58,780 --> 00:46:01,860
explain water to a fish when 
that's all they've been 

805
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:06,060
surrounded by and this aspect of
like, being an amphibian or it's

806
00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:09,060
just being queer? 
And also a book that comes up to

807
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:10,340
mind. 
I don't know if you've read it, 

808
00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:14,580
but The Queer Art of Failure 
amazing, amazing book which is 

809
00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:20,780
around queerness as failing. 
Heterotypical norms, right. 

810
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:26,540
And that in that it is a 
political movement, it is 

811
00:46:26,580 --> 00:46:31,580
substantial for progress, for 
just diverse livelihoods. 

812
00:46:31,660 --> 00:46:35,380
And the fact that there's so 
much benefit from also not 

813
00:46:35,380 --> 00:46:40,020
succeeding in a way that allows 
us to open our minds to what is 

814
00:46:40,020 --> 00:46:43,260
actually in what we quote, UN 
quote, identify as failure. 

815
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:46,180
It's like a very matter 
conversation but and the book 

816
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:49,540
breaks it down really well, but.
What I love is it's it's the 

817
00:46:49,540 --> 00:46:53,660
fact that the existence of 
queerness and being queer 

818
00:46:54,460 --> 00:46:59,660
ultimately opens other people up
to like a fish becoming 

819
00:46:59,660 --> 00:47:03,460
amphibian, just opening up to 
the possibilities of different 

820
00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:05,580
livelihoods. 
Totally. 

821
00:47:05,940 --> 00:47:08,820
That book is on my reading list,
but I'll have to bump it up 

822
00:47:08,820 --> 00:47:12,900
higher up for my summer reading.
Yes, it's so good. 

823
00:47:13,220 --> 00:47:16,460
I was recommended from another 
person, just like very very much

824
00:47:16,460 --> 00:47:19,250
in the books and. 
I was like, what is one book 

825
00:47:19,250 --> 00:47:21,770
that you'd recommend? 
And they were like, we're an art

826
00:47:21,770 --> 00:47:26,090
of failure, hands down. 
But I think it's interesting 

827
00:47:26,090 --> 00:47:29,370
too, right? 
The reframe of it's embracing 

828
00:47:29,370 --> 00:47:32,530
failure, right? 
Because failure, right? 

829
00:47:32,530 --> 00:47:35,250
I'm sure you've also talked 
about this with your students, 

830
00:47:35,250 --> 00:47:39,290
where a lot of designers have 
perfectionism tendencies, right?

831
00:47:39,450 --> 00:47:42,570
There's like this vision that 
there is perfection. 

832
00:47:42,970 --> 00:47:46,370
When reality perfect is so 
relative. 

833
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:50,390
What looks good to one may look 
different, I don't want to say 

834
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:55,430
awful, but different to another.
And we put these scales of how 

835
00:47:55,430 --> 00:48:00,990
we're measuring success to, you 
know, certain individuals based 

836
00:48:00,990 --> 00:48:04,310
on different constructs. 
And I think the more that I've 

837
00:48:04,310 --> 00:48:08,310
been in this work, the more that
I'm continuing to do design, 

838
00:48:08,310 --> 00:48:11,430
working with communities, the 
more that I realized that 

839
00:48:11,590 --> 00:48:15,070
really, even when I hold certain
forms of perfectionism. 

840
00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:19,580
Whether it's within the work or 
within just even myself, that it

841
00:48:19,580 --> 00:48:22,660
is an opportunity to also 
reflect what are things that I'm

842
00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:27,500
holding so tightly onto that I 
can maybe loosen myself with. 

843
00:48:28,540 --> 00:48:32,500
And I think failure, there's a 
whole discourse of failure in 

844
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,100
like startup culture and 
innovation culture as well, 

845
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:38,820
right about like fail faster and
fail forward, which is like, I 

846
00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:41,100
mean there's like kind of a 
douchey side of that as well 

847
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,180
which like also hides privilege 
in terms of like. 

848
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:46,270
To move fast, break things, 
yeah, it's like who is allowed 

849
00:48:46,270 --> 00:48:47,870
to fail? 
Or like who are you breaking 

850
00:48:47,870 --> 00:48:51,110
things for and what are the 
consequences and accountability 

851
00:48:51,110 --> 00:48:54,310
for that? 
I think the This Queer art of 

852
00:48:54,310 --> 00:48:57,190
failure has a different take on 
the idea of failure, but 

853
00:48:57,350 --> 00:48:59,430
definitely see like some 
parallels here. 

854
00:48:59,990 --> 00:49:02,150
But as it relates back to what 
we're talking about before in 

855
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:05,830
terms of like community 
centeredness, community centered

856
00:49:05,830 --> 00:49:09,030
creativity, community centered 
design, there's also something 

857
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:12,190
about the iterative process 
which is inherent to any 

858
00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:14,430
creative process. 
But when you're designing 

859
00:49:14,430 --> 00:49:17,150
together, right? 
It's like how do you say share 

860
00:49:17,150 --> 00:49:21,630
your sketches or share your your
prototypes in a way that's 

861
00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:24,510
authentic and allows for 
participation rather than 

862
00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:27,750
waiting until you have something
that's far more polished which 

863
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:30,470
like people are afraid to then 
mess with right? 

864
00:49:30,830 --> 00:49:33,590
Or the people who are willing to
mess with those also are sort of

865
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:36,910
biased towards certain dominant 
groups who will like, you know, 

866
00:49:37,350 --> 00:49:39,510
you're like, sure, I'm going to 
like, blow this up and you can 

867
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:41,270
start from scratch. 
But yeah, that. 

868
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:43,270
That's also something to think 
about in terms of how 

869
00:49:43,470 --> 00:49:46,710
imperfection is also an 
invitation for participation. 

870
00:49:47,630 --> 00:49:53,070
Oh, I love that imperfection as 
an invitation for participation.

871
00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:54,230
There you go. 
There's the. 

872
00:49:55,630 --> 00:49:58,830
Tweet one of your 600 that 
you're going to get today, Yeah.

873
00:49:59,190 --> 00:50:04,550
Exactly. 
Or the Twitter is just. 

874
00:50:05,260 --> 00:50:09,140
Dumpster, I was like, I think 
Elon just instituted like you 

875
00:50:09,140 --> 00:50:12,260
can only read up to a certain 
amount per day, yeah. 

876
00:50:12,940 --> 00:50:16,260
It's, yeah. 
And I want to touch on one thing

877
00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:20,580
I just earmarked for myself was 
even going back to the Supreme 

878
00:50:20,580 --> 00:50:24,300
Court decision knocking down 
affirmative action. 

879
00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:29,780
I'm just curious, from your own 
perspective, why is affirmative 

880
00:50:29,780 --> 00:50:35,440
action important? 
Yeah, I think part of it is 

881
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:42,120
about recognizing historical 
wrongs as well as recognizing 

882
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,440
implicit biases. 
And I'm not saying like the 

883
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:50,160
current models for admissions 
are good or can't be iterated, 

884
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,880
iterated upon, right. 
Obviously, including our own 

885
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,680
advice here, like, yes, we need 
to like find ways to be more 

886
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,160
equitable. 
I mean in terms of the case 

887
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,320
specifically, I've followed more
the Harvard ones since that's 

888
00:51:03,730 --> 00:51:06,130
where I went. 
But like in the scheme of things

889
00:51:06,130 --> 00:51:09,250
and I know there's like 
attention to me saying this as a

890
00:51:09,570 --> 00:51:11,490
Harvard graduate, like in the 
scheme of things like Harvard 

891
00:51:11,490 --> 00:51:15,410
doesn't matter that much, right.
Like they educate 2000. 

892
00:51:15,890 --> 00:51:19,730
Well 2000 first year students 
about just under 2000 are 

893
00:51:19,730 --> 00:51:22,970
admitted each year. 
You know so like in the scope of

894
00:51:22,970 --> 00:51:27,010
the country of like all college 
bound people and globally like 

895
00:51:27,010 --> 00:51:29,650
it's a very small amount. 
And yes it's like over 

896
00:51:29,650 --> 00:51:31,810
represented in like the global 
elite. 

897
00:51:32,050 --> 00:51:36,570
But I think the focus really 
it's like yes, look let's find 

898
00:51:36,570 --> 00:51:39,570
ways to be more equitable. 
But also like at the Community 

899
00:51:39,570 --> 00:51:43,370
College and at the state school 
level, how do we increase 

900
00:51:43,370 --> 00:51:47,290
excellence there or how do we 
increase even open enrollment, 

901
00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:49,250
right. 
Like I've I started college at 

902
00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:52,490
Arizona State University my 
first year as a freshman before 

903
00:51:52,490 --> 00:51:54,770
I transferred to Harvard. 
And back then, you like filled 

904
00:51:54,770 --> 00:51:57,690
out your name on a Scantron form
and basically if you like, 

905
00:51:57,690 --> 00:52:00,370
graduated from high school in 
Arizona, they let you in, right.

906
00:52:00,370 --> 00:52:04,790
And like, so there's something 
there too about like both Open 

907
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:06,910
Access, open enrollment, 
certainly for undergrads and 

908
00:52:06,910 --> 00:52:11,750
just seeing if college is right 
for you being given that chance,

909
00:52:11,790 --> 00:52:14,630
as well as like making that 
affordable, right. 

910
00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:16,470
So you can fail. 
It's like maybe you try for a 

911
00:52:16,470 --> 00:52:19,630
year, but you're not like stuck 
with 10s of thousands of dollars

912
00:52:19,630 --> 00:52:21,470
of student loan debt to try that
out. 

913
00:52:21,470 --> 00:52:24,030
Like how do we make it free or 
low cost enough that people 

914
00:52:24,030 --> 00:52:26,270
could try and they can fail. 
They can see if that makes sense

915
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:28,970
for them or trade school makes 
sense for them or or whatever 

916
00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:31,170
makes sense for them, right? 
And so, like, that's where it's 

917
00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:33,970
actually important for more 
people than like, how do we 

918
00:52:34,090 --> 00:52:38,210
diversify the elite 2000 kids 
who get into Harvard every year?

919
00:52:38,210 --> 00:52:40,610
Because. 
Like that's a drop in the bucket

920
00:52:40,610 --> 00:52:45,290
in the scheme of things. 
Yeah, and I I think this is 

921
00:52:45,290 --> 00:52:48,010
really relevant, just the 
conversation we had about 

922
00:52:48,010 --> 00:52:53,010
failure and this concept of 
perfectionism, and I feel that. 

923
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,600
The tool of affirmative action, 
it's just one of many different 

924
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,280
things, right? 
Even totally the way we can 

925
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,000
institutionalize affirmative 
action based on race, you can do

926
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,280
it based on a whole variety of 
different attributes, right? 

927
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,280
And often times, especially in 
both sides, very progressive or 

928
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,800
very far right leaning. 
We have this notion that things 

929
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,600
have to be perfect for us to 
have a forward momentum. 

930
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,920
And what I'm? 
You know, also personally 

931
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,480
disappointed by is this 
inability sometimes to see 

932
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,760
beyond things that might not be 
working 100% in favor of 

933
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,160
completely abolishing that. 
So that, you know, it's almost 

934
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,600
like this concept of all or 
nothing in this instance. 

935
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:39,280
Totally. 
Yeah. 

936
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,760
And I think there's just some 
bad faith arguments behind it 

937
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,280
too, right? 
And it's like that sort of 

938
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,440
perfectionist culture, which I 
think is also on one of those 

939
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,520
lists of like aspects of white 
supremacy culture. 

940
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,910
It's like, OK, like, it's not 
that most defenders of 

941
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:56,430
affirmative action think it's a 
perfect system, but it's like, 

942
00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:59,830
OK, well, how do we 
democratically build upon this 

943
00:54:00,150 --> 00:54:02,710
and reform it in different 
situations, right? 

944
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:05,630
And I think I'm still waiting to
hear, like, what is the end 

945
00:54:05,630 --> 00:54:09,230
point of this right for the 
people who supported abolishing 

946
00:54:09,230 --> 00:54:11,590
affirmative action? 
If you look at Harvard like it 

947
00:54:11,590 --> 00:54:15,590
is already like between 25 and 
30% of their entering freshman 

948
00:54:15,590 --> 00:54:19,400
class is Asian or Asian 
American, it's already not 

949
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,920
representative of the US general
population. 

950
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,480
And and maybe that's Okay, 
right? 

951
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,480
But this is where my sort of 
political philosophy background 

952
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,440
comes in too. 
It's like okay, Well, what is 

953
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,080
merit, right? 
Like we can't just not you have 

954
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,840
to like scratch it. 
What merit means as well in 

955
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,600
terms of who creates these 
tests, who decided what we're 

956
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,560
testing on. 
These things are not set in 

957
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,040
stone either. 
They've evolved with the times. 

958
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,570
They also represent social, 
cultural, political biases and 

959
00:54:45,570 --> 00:54:47,650
and what not. 
Like, you can't just hide behind

960
00:54:47,850 --> 00:54:51,930
this monolithical mythology of 
merit as this one thing too. 

961
00:54:51,930 --> 00:54:55,010
So, like, that's a whole thing 
we can make a whole podcast 

962
00:54:55,010 --> 00:54:57,970
about. 
The word merit too, I think it's

963
00:54:57,970 --> 00:55:02,690
so interesting because to 
certain people, different 

964
00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:05,570
degrees of accomplishment means 
so different, right? 

965
00:55:05,890 --> 00:55:10,490
Where you you might have 
somebody coming from a very low 

966
00:55:10,490 --> 00:55:15,040
resource community. 
And for them, getting an average

967
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:20,040
SAT score is phenomenal, given 
the complete lack of resources, 

968
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,560
complete lack of support. 
And I also went to high school 

969
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,960
with that at the time, had like 
very little resourcing in 

970
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,880
computer science, you know, And 
for anyone to have any skills in

971
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,680
computer, it's like phenomenal. 
And I think sometimes we forget 

972
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,840
that across the board, not 
everyone is resourced the same 

973
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,960
exact way across the board. 
And so often times trying to 

974
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,400
measure these merits, right, 
that's almost like a snapshot at

975
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,440
this moment. 
It is giving you a measurement 

976
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,040
of where just people are at 
currently. 

977
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,800
But it doesn't even show you how
far people have progressed, how 

978
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,720
hard people have worked, where I
think a lot of people try to 

979
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:04,240
attribute the scores people get 
to labor and like people's just 

980
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,400
effort, right? 
But that's what I always say is 

981
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,520
I, I especially when we take 
these test scores and these 

982
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,230
snapshots. 
Into ways that we're just 

983
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:18,150
primarily measuring people. 
This is just a single snapshot. 

984
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:22,710
And then the last anecdote is 
especially in running our boot 

985
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:28,710
camp at Q C5 Box design, we 
measure everyone across many, 

986
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:30,670
many different levels. 
And this year, we're starting to

987
00:56:30,670 --> 00:56:35,030
include socioeconomic factors 
into it and as a part of 

988
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:37,790
curating the students who go 
into our program. 

989
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:41,350
We also recognize what we have 
to look at some of these 

990
00:56:41,350 --> 00:56:45,590
attributes so that we can make a
fully inclusive, diverse class. 

991
00:56:46,070 --> 00:56:52,230
And often times I think my last 
note I would add is I have a 

992
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:55,630
hunch that if you put a lot of 
the people who are pushing for 

993
00:56:55,630 --> 00:56:59,070
so many of these decision things
to be made actually in the 

994
00:56:59,070 --> 00:57:03,230
driver's seats. 
Creating a classroom, trying to 

995
00:57:03,230 --> 00:57:05,750
figure out how to 
institutionalize diversity and 

996
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:09,590
equity in their own accord. 
I think they're going to walk 

997
00:57:09,590 --> 00:57:12,030
back on so many of these 
decisions that they've made 

998
00:57:12,030 --> 00:57:14,470
themselves. 
Yeah, I think that's the 

999
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:16,270
challenge, right? 
For the people who are like, OK,

1000
00:57:16,270 --> 00:57:19,550
it's a victory to get rid of 
affirmative action. 

1001
00:57:19,550 --> 00:57:21,990
Now it's an equal playing field,
right? 

1002
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:24,750
It's like, if you actually 
believe that, then what is your 

1003
00:57:24,990 --> 00:57:28,830
political commitment to making 
it actually an equal playing 

1004
00:57:28,830 --> 00:57:31,210
field downstream? 
Like, how do you make high 

1005
00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:33,090
schools across the country more 
equitable? 

1006
00:57:33,090 --> 00:57:35,730
How do you make junior high's 
elementary schools like access 

1007
00:57:35,730 --> 00:57:39,250
to pre-K event, right. 
Yeah, because if you, if you 

1008
00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:42,650
want to pretend that that's 
equal, then like that that's a 

1009
00:57:42,650 --> 00:57:45,130
whole different problem. 
But if you recognize that that's

1010
00:57:45,450 --> 00:57:48,650
unequal, then let's make college
admissions equal, whatever you 

1011
00:57:48,650 --> 00:57:50,850
think merit is. 
But then what is the equal 

1012
00:57:50,850 --> 00:57:55,490
playing field before that? 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

1013
00:57:55,530 --> 00:57:57,490
Well said. 
And. 

1014
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,280
We're getting towards the end of
our podcast and I just wanted to

1015
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:06,000
ask you, given just all the 
things that's been happening for

1016
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:11,520
you and also what's happening in
the world, the nation around us,

1017
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,080
what's next for you? 
What is next for me? 

1018
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,880
Because I have this like 
portfolio career between like 

1019
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,720
teaching an AIGA and still doing
some stuff with Visa part time. 

1020
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,660
I think coming up in the late 
summer fall, I've got like 

1021
00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:29,380
basically like 20% of my time 
that was previously occupied 

1022
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:32,220
opening up. 
So I am trying to figure out how

1023
00:58:32,220 --> 00:58:35,460
to fill that. 
And so I am kind of keeping my, 

1024
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:39,180
I guess, heart and mind open to 
that at the moment in terms of 

1025
00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:43,580
what I fill that with. 
I think 1 hunch I have beyond 

1026
00:58:43,580 --> 00:58:46,820
like kind of taking on more 
consulting work or something, is

1027
00:58:46,820 --> 00:58:51,960
to do some sort of project that 
is my own way of making learning

1028
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,800
more accessible, whether it's a 
new podcast or a YouTube thing. 

1029
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:57,840
I don't like keep me accountable
for this one. 

1030
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,360
We'll see where we go. 
You know, I I already teach 

1031
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,560
students who pay a lot of their 
families pay a lot or they take 

1032
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,560
out a lot of student loans to to
work with me. 

1033
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,960
But there's things that I can do
that like scale, that are free. 

1034
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,880
You know, if I make certain 
parts of my quote UN quote 

1035
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,160
content, which is a whole word 
that I I think is kind of 

1036
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,500
cringy, but like for lack of a 
better one, like putting that 

1037
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:21,700
out there. 
And obviously there's things 

1038
00:59:21,700 --> 00:59:24,940
that I do that are valuable that
don't scale in terms of what on 

1039
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:26,700
one feedback and mentoring and 
all of that. 

1040
00:59:26,700 --> 00:59:29,380
But what can I scale and can I 
make that more available. 

1041
00:59:29,380 --> 00:59:32,620
I think that's one hunch I have 
in terms of how I feel that 

1042
00:59:32,620 --> 00:59:38,420
upcoming 20% time, but also 
figuring out ways to plug that 

1043
00:59:38,420 --> 00:59:41,100
financial gap as well as 
something I'm trying to figure 

1044
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:42,980
out. 
So I think it's balancing those 

1045
00:59:42,980 --> 00:59:45,380
things out in terms of my next 
steps. 

1046
00:59:46,420 --> 00:59:48,980
Yes. 
I can't wait to see what comes 

1047
00:59:48,980 --> 00:59:52,700
up. 
I have no doubt you you'll be 

1048
00:59:52,700 --> 00:59:55,580
able to figure out something 
interesting to come of it. 

1049
00:59:55,940 --> 00:59:58,660
And I just, I just love to and I
want to acknowledge. 

1050
00:59:58,660 --> 01:00:03,180
Just like it's so beautiful to 
see your story of all these 

1051
01:00:03,180 --> 01:00:05,700
different things that you've 
been interested in your life 

1052
01:00:05,700 --> 01:00:08,620
previously, all kind of coming 
together, right. 

1053
01:00:08,620 --> 01:00:13,500
It's like all of these facets of
your life in college abroad, 

1054
01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:17,170
growing up. 
And starting to culminate into 

1055
01:00:17,170 --> 01:00:21,250
this beautiful myriad of 
experiences that not only, you 

1056
01:00:21,250 --> 01:00:26,410
know, uplifts this deeper in our
desire this like to create, but 

1057
01:00:26,410 --> 01:00:29,890
also helping other people. 
So just as another community 

1058
01:00:29,890 --> 01:00:33,010
practitioner, I want to just 
like, thank you, honor you and 

1059
01:00:33,130 --> 01:00:34,690
the awesome work that you're 
doing. 

1060
01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:38,690
And I think whatever you come 
to, I think it's going to be 

1061
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:40,690
awesome. 
Well, thanks Steven for the 

1062
01:00:40,690 --> 01:00:43,850
encouragement and also for 
giving me the space in the 

1063
01:00:43,850 --> 01:00:47,170
platform to share today. 
Yes, yes. 

1064
01:00:47,770 --> 01:00:52,250
And what is one thing, 
especially for a listeners, that

1065
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:55,010
you want them to take away with 
from our conversation? 

1066
01:00:56,650 --> 01:00:59,970
Think one thing I've already 
mentioned this, but I think it's

1067
01:00:59,970 --> 01:01:03,890
worth highlighting again, is 
design is ultimately about 

1068
01:01:03,890 --> 01:01:05,930
power, right? 
There's craft, there's 

1069
01:01:05,930 --> 01:01:08,490
aesthetics, there's beauty, all 
of these things, but it's 

1070
01:01:08,490 --> 01:01:12,250
ultimately about how you power 
yourself or. 

1071
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,680
Your users or communities and 
thinking in terms of those 

1072
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,840
ultimate ends as a level kind of
zoomed out or beyond just the 

1073
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,240
kind of craft and the qualities 
of things, I think that's where 

1074
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,440
we're going to reach our full 
potential as a design community.

1075
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,840
So I wanted to just highlight 
that as maybe my last word. 

1076
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:38,200
That's tape. 
And for those listening, how can

1077
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,810
they find you? 
I am at Le Sean pretty much 

1078
01:01:41,850 --> 01:01:45,450
everywhere on the Internet, 
whether Instagram, Twitter, if 

1079
01:01:45,450 --> 01:01:49,370
that's still around, well, this 
is released and LinkedIn, it's L

1080
01:01:49,370 --> 01:01:52,130
EE Sean. 
So Le like Bruce Lee, Sean like 

1081
01:01:52,130 --> 01:01:55,370
Sean Connery with no hyphen. 
My legal name has a hyphen, but 

1082
01:01:55,370 --> 01:01:57,610
my online persona does not have 
a hyphen. 

1083
01:01:58,810 --> 01:02:02,730
And if you want to learn more 
about our podcast, you can visit

1084
01:02:02,730 --> 01:02:07,840
us at yellowglitterpodcast.com. 
And if you really enjoyed our 

1085
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,720
conversation, feel free to leave
us a note on our website or 

1086
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,560
leave us a review. 
We look through all of 

1087
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,600
everyone's comments and also, if
you're subscribed to a 

1088
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:19,720
newsletter, feel free to just 
hit reply. 

1089
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,000
And if there's any thanks or 
accolades that you want to 

1090
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,880
provide leash on. 
We always forward that over to 

1091
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,520
our speakers as well. 
I think the conversation today 

1092
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,330
has been just so fulfill. 
It's just so heartwarming. 

1093
01:02:34,370 --> 01:02:40,290
And I think there's been so many
topics that are very pertinent 

1094
01:02:40,610 --> 01:02:44,130
to today's society and just what
a lot of people are 

1095
01:02:44,130 --> 01:02:47,890
experiencing. 
And so I thank you so much for 

1096
01:02:47,890 --> 01:02:52,210
this amazing conversation and 
hope to have you again soon in 

1097
01:02:52,210 --> 01:02:54,090
the future. 
And maybe we can reflect on like

1098
01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:57,490
a year from now where? 
Is he now? 

1099
01:02:58,010 --> 01:02:59,370
Yeah. 
Where is he now? 

1100
01:02:59,450 --> 01:03:02,430
And have we done anything with 
our world differently? 

1101
01:03:03,230 --> 01:03:05,470
Well, thanks again, Steven, and 
thanks for listening everyone. 

1102
01:03:05,470 --> 01:03:07,270
We've made it all the way to the
end. 

1103
01:03:07,550 --> 01:03:12,870
Yes, thank you and hope everyone
can take care and eat some 

1104
01:03:12,990 --> 01:03:15,630
awesome words with some from the
Sean. 

1105
01:03:15,630 --> 01:03:18,790
And with that, we'll chat with 
you again later. 

1106
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:21,270
Take care. 
Bye now. 

1107
01:03:21,550 --> 01:03:21,990
Bye.