1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,560 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,040 Podcast. My name is Lee Shan Vuong. 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,440 Hello, my name is Julia Delathalo. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,880 And this season of the show, we are exploring the theme of 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,760 design and performance. And in this episode, we are 6 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,200 joined by author and speaker Scott Birkin to talk about his 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,080 new book, Why Design is Hard. I've realized that the last time 8 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:26,720 we hosted Scott was in 2020, talking about his previous book, 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,160 How Design Makes the World and at Another Time of crisis. 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,920 So we're looking forward to having a a conversation and 11 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,680 catching up with Scott today. Before we dive into your book in 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,880 particular, Scott, I wanted to talk about maybe as an entry 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,400 point, something that's happening in the design 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,080 discourse online these days, which is the Jaguar rebrand, 15 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,640 which has caused some real controversy. 16 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,680 And like less so about like our personal opinions on the Jaguar 17 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,400 rebrand, which happy to talk about. 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,760 But I think the more interesting part of it is the online 19 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,200 phenomenon I've seen of designers doing these like drive 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,360 by logo redesigns, which is interesting to just see like, 21 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,320 OK, how'd people reimagine this? So I'm wondering if you have any 22 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:09,160 thoughts on this, because I definitely have some thoughts on 23 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,160 what this says about the gap between designers and business 24 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,520 people. Yeah, I'm glad you brought it 25 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,120 up. It's something that we talked 26 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,560 about for the last book I wrote, which is how does I make in the 27 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,200 world about this habit that we have as designers that we assume 28 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:24,920 we know enough about the context that some other designer is 29 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,760 dealing with. And we know for sure in 10 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,440 seconds that we can do better. And when we ever, whenever we do 31 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,880 this, we always assume the ideal constraints that you have, like 32 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,600 all the political power you need that everyone's getting along 33 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,880 and you can just come up with the idea and then poof, and you 34 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,960 could solve the problem as if ever there was a design project 35 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,800 that actually worked that way, where that was the hard, hard 36 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,400 problem. So I think it's just something 37 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,560 we're prone to. And it's like every profession 38 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,680 has their, their habits that just come out and they can't 39 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,040 control it. And you give us a visual design 40 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,200 that some other company has made and we're just all over it. 41 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,680 All of our projects that we have to do, suddenly we have time to 42 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,400 jump in and redesign someone else's work, right? 43 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,240 And it's interesting, a lot of the critiques I've seen have 44 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,720 been really limited to maybe the narrow craft of graphic design, 45 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,440 like, oh, the, you know, the capital G is all wrong in this 46 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,920 otherwise lowercase thing or comments about the letter forms. 47 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,160 I was also like, WTF, right from this luxury legacy brand like 48 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,600 Jaguar. And it's like, OK, where is the 49 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,480 cat? Right? 50 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,080 But then I watched the launch video of the, the rebrand and 51 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,880 it's like, OK, they've clearly seemed to have made a strategic 52 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,600 choice to make like a hard break with that legacy to do something 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:42,920 else, right? So, you know, I don't know what 54 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:45,920 the brief is or what the the strategy is, but I definitely 55 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:49,200 understood it more when I saw the video and the larger context 56 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,800 beyond just the letter forms. Yeah, I did not see the video, 57 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,640 but I did assume that people at companies, this is their job. 58 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,000 They have reasons. The execution of it may be 59 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,360 flawed and their problems. But the presumption that these 60 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,240 people in some big corporation that's been so successful so far 61 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,280 are so stupid that in 5 minutes I can do something better is 62 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,000 really an amazing kind of hubris to have. 63 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,640 You know, although it's true in every other field. 64 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:18,320 Like I'm a sports person and when you watch football or 65 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,400 soccer with other passionate people, they yell like they 66 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,200 could make better plays than the players or call better plays in 67 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,480 the coaches or hire better play. Everyone has the, it's like a 68 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,560 fan base kind of presumption that it's so obvious how to do 69 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,640 it better. And I think designers have kind 70 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,600 of a fan habit of presuming that we know more. 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,120 Yeah. Or like, like, is it really a 72 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,440 flex? I guess it's a way to create 73 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,360 content and get engagement. But you know, I don't know if 74 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,880 anybody gets hired based on these drive by rebrands or 75 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,080 anything, or if it's just designers kind of showing off to 76 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,360 their peers. Yeah, I think when we talked 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,880 about it before, there is the other side of it too, that if 78 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,880 you've been around long enough and you work on some work that's 79 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,800 visible. You've been exposed to the 80 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,240 opposite side where your work is very visible in public. 81 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,680 And you watch all of your peers basically dump all over it and 82 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,840 redesign it in 10 seconds when you know far more about the real 83 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,480 constraints involved. But you can't talk about them. 84 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:23,240 And it's kind of a kind of like a prison, like you're locked up 85 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:27,320 watching your peers circle and like vultures and tear apart 86 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,360 your work when you know that there are all these constraints 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,520 they couldn't deal with either. And so there's something about 88 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,240 it to me that does still strike a kind of immaturity. 89 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,040 To just presume that it's so obvious is just showing more 90 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,600 than I think people realize. Yeah. 91 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,080 So the segue into your book now is you use the concept of 92 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,080 gravity problems in your book, Gravity Problems and Design. 93 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,080 So can you tell us more about what gravity problems are and 94 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,040 how this relates to a designer self-awareness in the context 95 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,400 where they're working? Yeah. 96 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,480 So the term gravity problems comes from the book design in 97 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,080 your life, which is a good book. And they frame it as there are 98 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,400 always going to be very frustrating and even painful 99 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,000 problems that you're confronted with, but that are really not 100 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,640 solvable. They're not solvable by 101 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:16,160 certainly by you as an individual. 102 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,800 And basically you have a choice. You can either spend your time 103 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,240 complaining about this thing that is very difficult and very 104 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,960 great and just complaining about it. 105 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,520 Or you can try to use your creative skills as a designer, 106 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,200 your ability to be curious, your ability to investigate, your 107 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,280 ability to reframe and try to find a way to take a part of 108 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,080 that big problem, make it actionable, and then you can get 109 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,880 traction on it and then you can make things better. 110 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,280 They're called gravity problems because of gravity. 111 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:44,800 Like we all, we're all sitting here. 112 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:46,880 I'm assuming none of you are in space right now, but we're all 113 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,440 sitting here and gravity is a big constraint. 114 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,920 You know, it's kind of annoying, you know, like I'm getting old 115 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,240 and my face starts like gravity causes these problems, but we 116 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:57,840 don't spend all day complaining about gravity. 117 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,880 We just assume it's a constraint and we build our entire lives 118 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,080 around the assumption we will always have gravity. 119 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,000 And so I use their framing of that for us as designers, that 120 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,760 the book captures the top complaints I've heard from 121 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,280 designers for years and tries to say, hey, guess what? 122 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,720 We've been complaining about this for decades. 123 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,640 We're probably going to complain about this for decades in the 124 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,760 future. So let's maybe spend less time 125 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,840 complaining about these things and get smarter and better at 126 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:29,680 chipping away at the problems and finding ways to use our 127 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,600 superpowers to reframe and make things better. 128 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:38,200 So you also mentioned the importance of designers to 129 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,600 understand the business context of what the work that they're 130 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,600 doing. How do you think the 131 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,400 understanding this understanding can improve the designer's 132 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,600 performance and the influence within the organization that 133 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,920 they're working in or for? And if you can share personal 134 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,440 experience where business skills impacted your performance or the 135 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,120 performance of the designers that you were working with. 136 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,120 There's a section in the book that calls out some some of 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,880 these unfortunate truths that we have to get better or just 138 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,720 accepting and one of the sections is titled Bad Design 139 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,200 makes money. It's just something that we're 140 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,280 not exposed to very much in design culture. 141 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,200 We always assume that better design is better and the world 142 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,440 should get better because of us. And people are good at design as 143 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,960 we want as a better design world, but we don't recognize 144 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,760 how often the case that design is expensive, like hiring us and 145 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,200 paying us. And then on top of that, to 146 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,560 build a culture in an organization that is mature 147 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,160 enough to develop ideas well and have the patience around good 148 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,600 ideas, whether it's aesthetics or functionality that requires a 149 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,480 cultural shift, that's expensive too. 150 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,320 You need better leaders who are better at building that kind of 151 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,920 culture that really cares about quality. 152 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,000 That's also expensive. And so when you think of it 153 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:00,200 purely from a abstract accounting standpoint of assets 154 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,520 and liabilities, design and many businesses and a liability, 155 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,120 that's why we don't get that much respect. 156 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,440 That's why they don't hire us that much. 157 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,640 It's got nothing to do with you as an individual designer or how 158 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,200 talented you are. It's just the recognition of how 159 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,120 the orientation of most organizations, most 160 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,040 organizations are not oriented and will never be oriented 161 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 primarily about design just doesn't make sense for human 162 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,440 nature. And that's a really tough one 163 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,440 for us to swallow because our nature and our communities is so 164 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,440 focused on that and everything's about design and everything's 165 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,919 about why isn't designed better. But we do have a kind of 166 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:41,960 egocentrism about our values. And so to answer your question, 167 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,360 in our community, we're also supposed to be good about being 168 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,200 curious about customers and users and user research and 169 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,000 wanting to solve the real problems that people have. 170 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:59,280 And so the advice in the book, in my advice, is to apply those 171 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,840 design skills. We have the superpowers of those 172 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,440 design skills to want to actually make the world better. 173 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,360 So when you're in an organization, instead of 174 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,720 treating it like the bad kind of gravity problem, how come no one 175 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,720 cares about design? Why am I always ignore? 176 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,320 And making it personal is to be curious and go, maybe there's a 177 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,240 really good reason for their value system for walk out being 178 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,520 ignored. Let me be curious about it. 179 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,040 Let me find that out. Let me not be angry about it. 180 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,880 Let me really want to learn and then show up at meetings instead 181 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,160 of having the what we have like is a default rallying cry of, 182 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,800 you know, I'm going to make it beautiful or I'm here to fight 183 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,320 for the user, which is still very egocentric to show up and 184 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,560 say, I just want to spend the next half hour learning from the 185 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:46,600 business manager how they run their day. 186 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,400 I'm just going to interview them like they're a customer. 187 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,760 I'm not going to sell them on anything for 1/2 hour. 188 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,080 I just want to learn and be curious. 189 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,440 And we have that skill set, we just don't use it. 190 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,600 And if we do use it now, the way we're oriented to our Co workers 191 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,680 and the way they see us becomes very different. 192 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,280 Because by being genuinely interested in them and using 193 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,560 those skills, we have to let them share some of their 194 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:13,680 problems and have us help them frame those problems or draw 195 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:16,480 them out for them. We earn some trust from them, we 196 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,520 earn some credibility from them, and then the opportunity exists 197 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,160 to find some kind of sweet spot, kind of overlap of their 198 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,920 problems and our goals. And that's where you start is 199 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,520 where they are now allied with us because they want the same 200 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,040 thing that we do. The challenge of all this is 201 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,520 it's work and someone has to do it. 202 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,160 And unfortunately that's usually us because nobody knows what we 203 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,000 know. Nobody knows their superpowers 204 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:44,880 like that. No one has a superpower of mind 205 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,680 reading and can look at us and go, oh, I know exactly how you 206 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,240 can help my company and I know exactly what to ask you. 207 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,800 We're just just not enough of us in the world. 208 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,200 So that's just the burden responsibility that that we 209 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,120 have. It's not the most fun message I 210 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,240 know, but it yeah, I think it is the way to pivot and frame the 211 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,720 these frustrations we always have differently. 212 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,080 Yeah. I think for me, I see it as more 213 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,600 like, OK, designers have been talking about learning more 214 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,280 about the business side of things for a while now. 215 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,000 We try to do that in our programming at AIGA in terms of 216 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,560 the courses we offer. But then I see your book is like 217 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,720 filling in this gap of like saying like, OK, well, you learn 218 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,040 more about the business side and also like lean into embracing 219 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,200 internal politics right in your company and like actually 220 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,440 understand power and stuff like that. 221 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,000 So I wanted to go back to this superpower phrase that you've 222 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,480 been using. Another one you use in the book 223 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,240 is border walkers, right? The designers are by definition, 224 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,280 these liminal practitioners, like we're always touching upon 225 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,960 other disciplines, other fields. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear 226 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,360 more about that, how you see power as part of this. 227 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:01,680 Ideas go everywhere on a project, and whoever is the 228 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:05,760 connector of those ideas gets a kind of political influence 229 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,200 because they're the ones in those conversations where the 230 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,320 danger line comes into play. The stereotype for designers is 231 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,560 that we're more introverted. We tend to be a little more 232 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:17,400 solitary and that's not always true, but I think there's some 233 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,080 truth to that general preference. 234 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,040 We've chosen this work, which is solitary work. 235 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,120 And engineers are the same. Engineers work with, you know, 236 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,440 they work with bits in the same way that designers tend to like 237 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,560 to work, work with pixels. We can control those things. 238 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,840 So anytime I bring up the topic of socialization and politics, 239 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,880 there's often a like a bearing down of like, I don't want to, I 240 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,240 don't want to run it be in more meetings. 241 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,800 I don't want to. So what the book offers instead, 242 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,440 though, is to say that curiosity is our superpower. 243 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Curiosity and then exchange of ideas. 244 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,880 And I really do think curiosity is the way. 245 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,920 Instead of saying how come I always get shut down? 246 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,560 How come I never get the resources I need to say who in 247 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,640 these meetings that I hate? Who leaves those meetings 248 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,880 feeling like this is amazing, This is a great meeting because 249 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,840 that's the spectrum you're dealing with then. 250 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,000 And the more curious you can be about how that person achieved 251 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,840 what they did, who they talked to 1st. 252 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,240 And that's why the reframing that that that you need politics 253 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,720 is a way out of taking responsibility for being a 254 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,680 person who works with ideas. To me, I think that we romance 255 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:29,160 ideas, that if your idea is good enough, it should be obvious to 256 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,000 everybody else how good your ideas are. 257 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,640 And I'm here to tell you that there's almost no evidence of 258 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,080 that ever happening. Like ever. 259 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,200 Like every, every great designer who I've read their biographies 260 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,640 or their essays about their work before they became famous enough 261 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,720 to just bully their way through things, which is also very 262 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,040 unusual. They have to persuade. 263 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,920 They have to convince. So by calling it politics, I 264 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,840 think we put it in a corner and say it's something that we 265 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,720 should not have to do. I think it's a denial of our own 266 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,800 value because everyone who gets their ideas through has to deal 267 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:08,200 with some conversation, some persuasion, some building of 268 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,840 allies, some earning of trust in order to it to achieve those 269 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,760 things. Dieter Rams is one of the most 270 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,920 legendary living designers. There's a story in the book that 271 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,680 he talked about in an interview of the young designer realizing 272 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,280 his team was not functioning very well, his design team and 273 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,560 the engineering team, and he noticed it. 274 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,360 And instead of doing what a lot of us might do of go, well, 275 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,760 that's not my problem. Like, I don't want to deal with 276 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,200 that. You know, engineers are 277 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,000 difficult. They're smart and they argue all 278 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,480 the time. I don't want to get involved. 279 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,800 Instead, what he did was he knew they liked cognac, so he bought 280 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,080 some nice cognac and he shared it with the engineering team. 281 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,320 And the quote in the interview is he says to be a good 282 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,200 designer, you have to be half psychologists and base and act 283 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,720 and act on it. And that to me reflects that 284 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,120 sensibility of to realize if you want to be a champion of ideas, 285 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,640 you want your ideas to go somewhere, that's going to 286 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 happen through people. So how you build relationships 287 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,320 and build trust is as important, maybe even more important, than 288 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,840 your creative talent. Yeah, I love this idea of 289 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:12,400 designers that are as bridge builders, and I think the cognac 290 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,920 is a good metaphor for that. And wherever you got to start, 291 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,480 you know, make brownies or cookies, if that's the way that 292 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,240 you get a little bit of a more of a connection with someone and 293 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,120 then you can ask them what's your favorite part of your job? 294 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Talk to me about your. Let me be curious about you. 295 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,720 What's your favorite part of your job? 296 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,840 What do you think is high quality work? 297 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,160 People really do want to do great work. 298 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,960 And when you get them talking about great work and as 299 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,680 designers, we know a lot about what that means. 300 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,040 We have a lot of language for what that means. 301 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,560 But to get them talking about it first, what they think great 302 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,840 work is and then say, so what's the greatest work you've done in 303 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,200 this organization? What has held you back? 304 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,840 And nine times for the 10, the stuff they complained about is 305 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,600 the same stuff that we complained about. 306 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,040 I get ignored over the power and you go, great, let's ally 307 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,760 together and come up an idea together. 308 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,080 That's how I think people work. So in a world where design is 309 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,920 becoming everyday more specialized, you know, so now 310 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,400 we're talking about service designers, UX designers and so 311 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,080 on and so forth, How do you think designers can maintain a 312 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,080 balance between being very specialized but also keeping the 313 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,560 broader understanding of design principle so there's more of a 314 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,640 broader perspective of design? And how do you think this 315 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,560 balance contributes to the designers overall performance? 316 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,080 My last book, which was How Design Makes the World, offers 317 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,560 that. I mean, other authors have 318 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,080 offered the same idea, but that design is a kind of everyday 319 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,800 activity and in certain tasks. And I think the way to stay 320 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,000 connected, if you're becoming more specialized in your design 321 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,480 career and you're becoming more and more of a specialist, 322 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,360 there's always the opportunity in your regular life to pay more 323 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,720 attention to how you're doing your generalized design. 324 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,400 So I like to cook. I like to cook for friends. 325 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,960 I like to cook for my wife. And the process of cooking is 326 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,880 this construction, deconstruction process of 327 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,119 breaking down the elements and put it in the right order. 328 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,880 And then there's often prototyping. 329 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,319 You know, I'm making a new recipe. 330 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,240 I got to do a little sample. I got to prototype that with. 331 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,319 User testing yeah, for. The user user testing, right, I 332 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,560 got to pick the right candidates for the user test, right. 333 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:23,760 You know, my dog will eat anything. 334 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,560 I can't trust my dogs user testing. 335 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,359 So I got anyway. So there's that process and then 336 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,800 there's the process of making the food and the balancing of 337 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,120 different trade-offs of cost of time of risk, and and then 338 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,120 there's the production of the food and, and the refinement. 339 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,040 So I think that you can find the complete circle of being a 340 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,680 designer in things in your life if you're looking for them. 341 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,560 And there's always a way to stay rounded if you're looking at 342 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,560 life that way. But in the professional sense, I 343 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,920 mean, I don't know. I don't, I'm not sure that we're 344 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,000 getting more specialized. I really have AI don't have a 345 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,960 great sense of the overall landscape. 346 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,640 And how much of job opportunities for generalist 347 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,120 designers is narrowing or not? I really don't know. 348 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,640 I know that the job market has been tough and that often 349 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,560 encourages people to feel like they need to specialize to stand 350 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,640 out. I definitely see a lot of that. 351 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:15,080 But I don't have a good sense for how across. 352 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,280 I mean, I don't know what your data is about how many designers 353 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,440 there are, professional designers there are in America. 354 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,640 I've looked for data on that. It seems like it's all over the 355 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,200 place, but it's definitely in the hundreds of thousands. 356 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,200 I don't know what percentage of that we would agree are 357 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,640 specialized designers first, like generalist designers, I 358 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,800 mean. So I don't have a good sense of 359 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,440 that to have an opinion either way. 360 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,960 Yeah, maybe we circle back to what we're talking about in 361 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,600 terms of influence and that Dieter Rahm story rated because 362 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,280 it's like it's not that he was. I don't think the point is like 363 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,760 trying to bribe your Co workers with alcohol, but it was really 364 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,800 about like, OK, this is like a a way of building an actual 365 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,960 rapport and a connection read and maybe even befriending your 366 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,240 Co workers in that sense. And there's often having been in 367 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,600 the workforce for a few a couple decades now, like there's in an 368 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,160 organization, there's like often the real org chart in addition 369 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,400 to the official one, right? So there's like OK, the whatever 370 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,240 the pyramid the latter is. But then there's the like how 371 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,240 stuff actually gets done. And it's maybe like knowing the 372 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,120 executive assistant who's probably been there longer than 373 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,080 some of the actual executives or or whatever, however that works 374 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,440 in a given organization. And so, yeah, how do you think 375 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,080 about influence as something that designers can do? 376 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,400 Because you've talked about curiosity and then, yeah, how do 377 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,560 we connect that? Yeah, I think you're, I think 378 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,360 you're totally right. There's a quote, I forget what 379 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:38,880 book it's from. It's not my quote, but there's a 380 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,560 quote from the book I think Hack Your Bureaucracy that talks 381 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,440 about the difference between the org chart as like, it's not a 382 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,280 fake map, but it's sort of like the map that certain people want 383 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,520 to believe is the map. And then the real maps you make 384 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,960 when you're observing behavior and who really are the decision 385 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,240 makers, who really has influence and just paying attention to 386 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,560 being curious about that. The common complaint is my ideas 387 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,600 get shut down. I never get resources. 388 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,120 I'm involved late to be curious about, OK, well, who is involved 389 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:10,760 early? That someone's involved early. 390 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Who is that person? Go talk to that person. 391 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,920 Hey, I feel like you're involved early in all these meetings. 392 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,160 What what can I learn from you about how you have so much 393 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,760 earlier access to decision making? 394 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,760 And I realized that's a very forward thing to do. 395 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,520 And if you're a younger designer listening to this, you're like, 396 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,120 there's no way I would do that. Totally fair. 397 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,640 And that's where it gets back to the Dieter Rams. 398 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,160 I don't think he was bribing either, but he was doing two 399 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,200 things. He was recognizing that a Co 400 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,600 worker was frustrated and acknowledged it, which is a sign 401 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,280 of respect to someone like I just just to acknowledge it. 402 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,760 I mean, he didn't send them a note saying, yeah, your 403 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,840 engineering lead sucks. And I see it. 404 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,680 They just acknowledge of something going on and made an 405 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,440 offer. And a lot of life is just making 406 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,600 offers. And designers, we have all of 407 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,240 these skills for making things and we can make offers. 408 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,040 One thing that comes in the book related to influence, this is a 409 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,200 technique that I learned is that being able to visualize things 410 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,040 for people is power. A lot of the business world and 411 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,640 the engineering world is so text dominant, writing and talking, 412 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,920 and there's limitations and biases in that kind of 413 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,160 expression. Visual visualizing a problem or 414 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,880 a question is a profound way to change people's perception of a 415 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,760 thing. So to be in a conversation, it 416 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,960 could be on Slack, it could be in a on Zoom and a realize, oh, 417 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,320 I can just make a diagram and ask the question, do you mean 418 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,240 this or this? And now you get everyone's 419 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,760 attention to look at something you've created that reframes the 420 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,280 argument, probably in a way that will accelerate a solution. 421 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,520 That's power. And often designers are afraid 422 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,360 to use it because we have this weird standardization problem of 423 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,160 unless we think we can Draw Something perfect, we don't want 424 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,280 to share it. Even though we're in a room full 425 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,400 of business people and engineers. 426 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,280 You can't try any supply. Quick sketch will look like a 427 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,680 work of art to them. But our our, our framework for 428 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,360 that is often that's my first advice to people. 429 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,920 One more influential use your superpower of visualizing 430 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,600 questions and problems. You can do it asynchronously 431 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,240 after the meeting going to Slack, O did you mean this or 432 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,880 this? And you will not all the time, 433 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,520 but it will reframe the conversation and the leaders who 434 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,360 are smart will notice that there was your action as a designer to 435 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,600 do a creative choice like that. That changed the conversation, 436 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,200 solved the problem, and now you're earning trust with them. 437 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,520 The want you in the meeting when there's a tough decision to be 438 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,840 made because you will have this ability, which is really 439 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,680 facilitation. You're using visual skills, but 440 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,200 you're facilitating the discussion. 441 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,360 Facilitation is the most one, most leverageable skills you can 442 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,280 learn and you don't have to be an extrovert to do it. 443 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,400 You have to have a little bit of initiative to lend your skills 444 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,320 and even just ask the question, do you mean this or this and 445 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,720 that? Now the conversation's shifted 446 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,960 and it's been improved because it's now visual. 447 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,000 Which most of these problems are better represented? 448 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,760 Not most. Many of them are better 449 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,800 represented visually than through 2 pages of text. 450 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,960 That's my, that's my superpower advice is use those skills, make 451 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,280 your conversations more visual and that can be a way to get 452 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,680 that influence that you're seeking. 453 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,040 You give a few definitions of design in the book, and one of 454 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,040 them is like repairing what's broken. 455 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,560 The other one is bringing light to darkness. 456 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,800 So visualization feels like it falls within that, right? 457 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,920 Because this is like things that people have been talking about 458 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,200 or it's kind of lost in the prose and you're reconnecting 459 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,800 the dots. And then the third one is 460 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,840 finding creative escapes from perceived dead ends. 461 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,240 And I think that connects to the reframing stuff that you're 462 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,120 talking about. Are there other examples of like 463 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:53,920 these reframes? Because again, it's like you're 464 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,720 not fighting gravity, right? But it's there's still something 465 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,200 that allows you to you, you think you've reached the stead 466 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,320 end, but somehow it's a paradox and you've found another like a 467 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,800 third way out. A lot of what I tried to respond 468 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,560 to in this book is the perennial feeling for designers are 469 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,680 feeling alone and feeling left out. 470 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,200 And I mentioned already, but I it's worth reminding. 471 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,840 So we're saying it again. Even I see on LinkedIn now 472 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,240 people complain about what are normal frustrations for smart 473 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:28,080 people in large organizations, but they'll frame it as some 474 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,760 kind of intentional and focused diminishment of design. 475 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,760 Like we take it very personally and our default assumption is 476 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,040 that designers are the only one being marginalized in this way. 477 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,800 And a lot of the time, many people feel that way. 478 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,040 Engineers feel that way, marketers feel that way. 479 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,080 The business development guy who seems to get all the attention, 480 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,600 he's he's unhappy because most of his ideas get shut down too. 481 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,920 There's generally for creative people feeling like the 482 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,400 organization moves too slowly. I don't get enough respect. 483 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,000 That's just how smart people, smart motivated people feel in 484 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,560 big organizations. And that means that there's an 485 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,800 opportunity to connect with those people and find them. 486 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,640 And you do that by being curious instead of assuming it's about 487 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,760 you recognize there are, there are other patterns and 488 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,720 organizations that can make you feel that way, but there's other 489 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,640 reasons why and those other reasons can reframe the problem. 490 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,640 Wait a second-half of the engineering team thinks the 491 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,080 quality of the work they're asked to do is very low and they 492 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,120 want to do something better. Wait a second, can't I buy them 493 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,560 lunch over the weekend and we'll we'll rent an office space and 494 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,480 we'll build something together? A lot of my career was spent as 495 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,280 a project lead. I was a designer, like a UX 496 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,120 person for a while, but it became like a project lead 497 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,560 person. And the thing that saved me so 498 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,480 many times was the recognition that engineers usually have with 499 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,560 special power. They can just decide to build 500 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,320 more stuff like nobody else can do it. 501 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,960 The marketing team can't do it. The business people can't do it. 502 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,880 The engineer could decide, you know what, I like this idea On 503 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,200 Saturday and Sunday, I'm going to go and build it. 504 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,280 On Monday, I'll check it in and we'll see if they let us keep 505 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,360 it. And odds are if it's good, no, 506 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,400 no VP is going to go. No, that's too good. 507 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,160 You did it on the weekend. We're going to RIP it out. 508 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,320 They'll be like, maybe it'll happen. 509 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,080 So befriending the engineers who are really the machinery for 510 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,760 building stuff at tech companies. 511 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,520 This gets back to D2 Rams a little bit. 512 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,160 Befriending them and getting allied with them gives you a 513 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,320 separate pool of resources that you don't have to work through 514 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,960 the entire system necessarily to access provide you motivate them 515 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,320 and they can be motivated by quality and making things that 516 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,440 are beautiful that reflect their idea quality. 517 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,280 Boom, now you have allies and influence and changing the 518 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,200 nature of a project. So in addition to Dieter Rams, 519 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,600 you also talk about Paula Share, right? 520 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,720 And I feel like there's a story with her that's become designed 521 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,760 legend with the city logo redesign when they were merging 522 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,560 with travelers and she apparently drew this on a 523 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,040 cocktail napkin. And that's great. 524 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,120 But I think the take away when it's been kind of perpetuated 525 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,960 has been about like these Eureka moments, which sometimes happen 526 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,480 for designers. But then there's all the like, 527 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,200 probably all of the stuff that we didn't see and that's not at 528 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,880 all glamorous, which is like selling this to all sorts of 529 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,520 decision makers to actually make this 32nd sketch into something 530 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,360 that's going to, you know, that they had to put on like 531 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,280 corporate letter heads and change the logos on buildings. 532 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,440 I mean, like this is multi $1,000,000 kind of things, 533 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,640 right? When you're doing these 534 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,640 corporate mergers and rebranding things. 535 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,720 Can you tell us about like how you've reframed that legend and 536 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,400 brand it more in reality? I wrote an earlier book years 537 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,000 ago called The Myths of Innovation, and the Goal that 538 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,560 book was to dig into all of these stories that a lot of our 539 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,440 education around creativity are based on, and they're mostly 540 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,000 flawed. They're mostly not the truth, 541 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,320 mostly not. And we have a tremendous 542 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,560 romanticization of Eureka moments as being the nature of 543 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,800 creativity. And so the Paula Cher story is 544 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,040 another mythology story where it's known as this $1,000,000 545 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,680 sketch. And she did apparently make the 546 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,320 sketch very quickly, but the let the what we're led to take from 547 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560 that story is, well, she must have been so talented and work 548 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,520 worked so quickly. And that's the aspiration for us 549 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,360 as designers is to be able to make napkin sketches and then 550 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,920 like take the week off. Like what, what are we supposed 551 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,760 to learn from this? Because that's what we're 552 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,720 supposed to learn. And then also that we also 553 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,200 critique that sketch 2 of like, oh, I could do that. 554 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:36,880 The valuable lesson out of that story. 555 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,360 There's a couple of things. One is that even if she made 556 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,800 that sketch so quickly and it did become the logo, the ability 557 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,720 to do that is based on an entire career's work. 558 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,400 And she knew to make that particular sketch in that low 559 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,720 fidelity way with that group of people at that time. 560 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,120 There's a whole bunch of other factors that led to her choices 561 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,680 there that reflect a long and very talented career. 562 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,320 The second lesson though, as she told the story to there's a 563 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,120 Netflix documentary episode about her and that episode, she 564 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,440 talks about how long it took to get from that sketch to that 565 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,640 logo being in the world. And it was about two years. 566 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,360 And the quote, I won't get it quite right, is that she says, 567 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,800 is that the the design? And by that she was referring to 568 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,520 the ideas. The design is not the hard part. 569 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,600 The hard part is getting people to use the ideas. 570 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,480 And she talks about the as you might guess, there are meetings 571 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,440 and debates, and then that sketch has to be transformed 572 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,040 into actual production design work. 573 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,600 And what's the color scheme? How's it going to scale? 574 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Are there going to be different versions? 575 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,640 Printed on different materials and all the. 576 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Many, everyone listening to this, we all production that we 577 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,680 know like complicated. And sometimes you run into 578 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,960 things with the production that are blockers that prevent the 579 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,360 idea because they're so difficult in the execution that 580 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,040 the idea just doesn't work. And that's really what design is 581 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,320 to me. I want a better design world. 582 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,280 That means these ideas have to navigate themselves through 583 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,080 companies and organizations and all the complexity to get out 584 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,560 into the world. If it doesn't get out into the 585 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,840 world, we haven't made the world better. 586 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,120 We haven't solved the problem really. 587 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,760 We've just exercised our creative skills, which don't 588 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,440 necessarily help anyone. So that is part of the spirit of 589 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,920 the book. And you could say, listen to 590 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:23,880 this. Well, I don't want to do all 591 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,200 that work. I don't want to influence 592 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,800 people. I don't want to be persuasive. 593 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880 And I feel like that's fine. Like you're no one's saying you 594 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,480 have to. But I think many of us really do 595 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,040 deeply believe in the power of design. 596 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,520 We want a better design world, and design is hard because 597 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,360 there's no way to escape these tasks. 598 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,640 Someone has to do this work of filling out the idea, persuading 599 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,200 people, getting support. And if we don't do it, as the 600 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,680 people are supposed to be most passionate about design, then 601 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,360 we're expecting someone else to do it. 602 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Why? Like, why do we expect that? 603 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,920 That's the question I poke at of it's up to us. 604 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,440 It's up to us to at least see it as a problem that we have to get 605 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,560 better at and encourage future generations of designers to be 606 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,560 more accepting of as being part of the job or part of this 607 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,760 ambition to have a better world. You touched upon this in your 608 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,440 response just now about essentially like designers 609 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,960 having this choice, right to either keep on designing, like 610 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,480 being in the design tools every day versus maybe as you did in 611 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,720 your own career, becoming a project lead and like being a 612 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,760 deciderer. You have that Venn diagram too 613 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,840 of the the designer and the deciderer. 614 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,000 And so I think that's another other kind of identity issue 615 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,480 that designers go through of like, oh, are you no longer a 616 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,120 designer because you've become a manager or something? 617 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,400 But then you have more ability to actually decide on these 618 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,560 design decisions even if designer isn't in your job title 619 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,000 anymore. So do you have any advice for 620 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,240 folks to think through that in their career paths? 621 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,160 I do. I'm glad you brought it up. 622 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,920 So the the Venn diagram in the book is, we're told it's just as 623 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,240 soon when you go to design school, you read a design book, 624 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,080 that you are the person who's going to make decisions. 625 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,440 That's just what it would be to be a designer, to design A build 626 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,560 and design A house. You decided most things, but the 627 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,200 workplace, the number of decisions designers make is 628 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,600 relatively small. We influence a lot of things, 629 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,000 but there's usually a executive or project lead or sometimes the 630 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,600 engineering lead who's really deciding the budget and the 631 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,960 goals. And we have to just accept that. 632 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,000 Where designers run into trouble is identity. 633 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,760 And we want that, that word in our job title. 634 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,760 This is like a heretical thing to say. 635 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,600 I think it's not always a mistake, but it can be a 636 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,280 liability. Because if the advice I give is 637 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,400 you should have a job where most of the work you're doing every 638 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,040 day is the work that you want to do, whatever it's called. 639 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,840 Yeah, yeah, whatever it's called, if the job is 80% of 640 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,720 what you want to do, including making design decisions, picking 641 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,760 the budget and doing the design work is called, you know, a 642 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,080 super widget master. And there's another job called 643 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,880 like senior executive designer that help only has 10% of the 644 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,360 work you actually want to do. Pick the first job. 645 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,080 That's my advice. Do the actual work you want to 646 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,160 do and what other people look at you and say about you because 647 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,200 the word design is not in your job title, I think is really not 648 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,960 important. What's going to be important is 649 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,800 having a fulfilling career. We're influencing important 650 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,880 decisions. And when you go home, at the end 651 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,920 of the day, you feel like I have made this better, I had the 652 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,880 power to make this better and I feel good about it. 653 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,280 That's the job I want designers in, even if it's not called 654 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,160 designer. We've talked about designers 655 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,680 demonstrating their value through like, their curiosity 656 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,280 through their superpowers. And you also touch upon 657 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,560 compensation in the book and how designers can negotiate and 658 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,680 advocate for themselves. And so can we go into that a 659 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,960 little bit as well? We think that we're being hired 660 00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,560 for like the deliverables, right? 661 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,840 The designing XYZ, delivering these files. 662 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,320 And then there's the like, actual stuff that we bring, 663 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,239 which is like being curious, being empathetic, being all of 664 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,560 that other stuff. And then how does that all kind 665 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,800 of cohere together in terms of how we advocate for ourselves? 666 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,199 This is an important issue and I don't I I I don't have great 667 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,480 advice here. The book calls out the fact that 668 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,600 to be a designer means you are dealing with the legacy 669 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,840 perception that organizations have. 670 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,719 But what that means, and often that means that it's, it's seen 671 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,760 as, you know, the, the the diminishing term of what you're 672 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,159 selling just makes it pretty. Even though making something 673 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,600 pretty, that's what we're talking about the Jaguar, making 674 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,239 it pretty is like it could be a really important thing to do and 675 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840 really hard to do. Somehow it's still often uses 676 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,639 like a diminishing term. So compensation, you are having 677 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:53,679 to work against the perception that your CEO or VP has from 678 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,679 whatever legacy experience they have with design 10 years ago or 679 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,680 15 years ago. And that's a lot to bear. 680 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,600 I don't have any magical advice for how to do that. 681 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,800 However, I think some of the things we've talked about just 682 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,200 in this, in this conversation, if you're in the meeting and 683 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,680 you're doing things that make the meetings run better, lead to 684 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,160 better decisions. The only focused on what your 685 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,880 job title was while you did it. They noticed that while you were 686 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,240 in the room. Sally or Joe, whoever you are, 687 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,280 when you're in the room, better things happen. 688 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,440 You're smart, you're useful. That's the pathway to 689 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,080 compensation is recognition for how you're contributing, not 690 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,480 just in your specialized role, but you're recognizing the way 691 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,440 the connective tissue has to work and you're in those 692 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,400 situations and you're doing things that help the project 693 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,400 rather than just help you function in in in your job. 694 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,520 I do think that designers have a lot of the skills that allow 695 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,280 them to do that, but we have to be more, take more initiative to 696 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,240 do it. Compensation is such a 697 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,680 complicated thing because organizations, especially larger 698 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,560 ones, have their HR policies wrapped around compensation and 699 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,480 ladder levels, and it becomes a very entrenched, systemic kind 700 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,520 of conversation. Where you lose that designer 701 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,640 title again when you're moving up, right? 702 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,000 And that's goes back to that identity thing we were talking 703 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,960 about, right, which? Also, I mean, again, is part of 704 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,280 the argument for me of like if you if you can be a product 705 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,440 manager somewhere because you can do 80% of the role, that's a 706 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560 much easier path to better compensation and better 707 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,560 influence without having to fight these larger battles of 708 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,960 representing design to companies that don't have a long history 709 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,440 with it. I do think, though, that the 710 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,640 more of that value you're expressing and project leaders 711 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,000 see it, they're the ones who have the leverage to say, yes, 712 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,560 this person's in a design role, but they're contributing in a 713 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,920 way that's closer to this other role. 714 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,960 Can't we set them up so they have a faster track to 715 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,760 promotion? That's going to come from people 716 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,560 who are in generalist roles. They're looking at the general 717 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,640 situation across the project team, and you have to be visible 718 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,640 to those people for them to recognize your value. 719 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,520 I'm going to turn it over to Julia again, who has some 720 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,400 questions about the the broader contacts and she'll take us out 721 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,240 I'm. Curious now that we're we've 722 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,680 been introduced so much to new disruptive technologies such as 723 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:07,000 Jenny, how do you think is the role of designers in this new 724 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,080 context and how it's it's going to evolve and impact their their 725 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,040 skills? Yeah, I don't know. 726 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,760 And also like their performance in the future, yeah. 727 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:20,840 I'll be the. First, we're talking about 728 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,560 performers. Be the first pundit in the, you 729 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,520 know, the last like six months to say, I don't know, nobody 730 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:27,760 knows. I think there's so many 731 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,360 variables here, people who seem up just a clear idea. 732 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,640 I'm like, come on, you don't, you don't know that it's 733 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,480 understand I'll be scary. The close you are to production 734 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,280 type work, the scary this gets. But it's always been true, not 735 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,160 just for designers, it's true for engineers. 736 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,680 The more automatable and repetitive your work is, the 737 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,720 easier it just makes sense. So the best advice to them would 738 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:51,240 be if that's where you are to work hard to try to distance 739 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,600 yourself from that and have skills that are harder to 740 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,920 replicate or to automate. There's always an editorial role 741 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,920 to play in all of the stuff. It's true for engineering, it's 742 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:01,920 true for design. There's always has to, always 743 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,760 has to be someone who's going to say there's three options even 744 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,800 they're all AI generated, there's still some person who 745 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,920 has to say, what are the trade-offs between. 746 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,040 And you can't always go back to AI to solve that problem because 747 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,480 AI gets worse and worse at these more generalizable things that 748 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,000 have to come from an actual person's emotional stake in the 749 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,960 company and his history. So the more you can move into 750 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,720 being the editorial, the editor, then the production of these 751 00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,480 things matters less because your role is to try to integrate and 752 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,480 to try to synthesize. And that's the value you're 753 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,800 giving to your team and your company is you're the editor. 754 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,440 And that might be where this term design shifts. 755 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,480 There's still a designer or UX designer and they manage a set 756 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,040 of tools, some of which are automated, some of which is 757 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,080 maybe outsourcing. And I don't know what that means 758 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,680 for the job market. There's always a need for people 759 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,640 in editor like roles lead role always because that who that's 760 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,560 who the CEO and the executive look to, to say, Scott, what 761 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,560 happened on this project? You know, they want a person to 762 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:01,760 be able to say what'd you do? Or to say that was a great job. 763 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,800 Someone has to be the editor, the leader. 764 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,240 That's just in human nature. And so I'd look, how do you 765 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,760 shift into roles where that's what you're being paid for 766 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,080 rather than what tool did you use or how many mock ups did you 767 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,640 make in a week that you're the, you're, you're at a level of 768 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,520 abstraction that's higher than that, that just seems wiser and 769 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,440 smarter generally, but the more pressure there is from AI, 770 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,800 that's that's what I would advise. 771 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,280 Yeah, makes us appreciate. That honest answer. 772 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:30,600 Yeah, yeah. Who? 773 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,520 Knows no one can get to teachers. 774 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,720 Yeah, we don't know. Ask chat. 775 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,160 I'm going to ask chat PT that question when we're done. 776 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:38,960 And then say, how are you so sure? 777 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,320 And now more on a personal note, we are curious to hear a little 778 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:50,760 bit if you have any inspiration to share with it could be either 779 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,240 like a book, a show, a movie, a piece of media that you've 780 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,280 you've seen lately that has impacted and inspired, you know, 781 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,840 in a way. Working a new book, it's more 782 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,400 about life philosophy and I'm reading a book called Feeling 783 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,480 Philosophy and the Meaning of Life by John Gray. 784 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,680 And I have been loving. It's like I, I, I admitted I 785 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:12,880 don't, I don't know anything about it. 786 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,360 Like who knows? Like what's going to happen with 787 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,560 AI. But his position is basically 788 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,240 that as a philosopher, that philosophy is kind of a waste of 789 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,880 time. It's mostly a way for us not to 790 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,000 be afraid of like the future or afraid of dying. 791 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,560 And we're avoiding things. And cats, we love them so much 792 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,120 because they don't have anything to avoid that they're always 793 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,520 present and they're always in the moment. 794 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,440 So I'm an animal person. I like cats, I like dogs, and 795 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,280 this book has been a really fun way for me to think about why I 796 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,600 like being around animals so. Feline Philosophy by John Gray. 797 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,080 Thanks for that recommendation and for spending some time with 798 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,240 us in the AIGA Virtual studio, Scott. 799 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,080 So for folks listening to this or watching this now that we're 800 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,120 on video, check out Scott Perkins new book, Why Design is 801 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,960 Hard wherever you get your books. 802 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,600 And Scott, do you have anywhere else online or handles that you 803 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,160 want to share with folks while we're still Scott? 804 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560 Brookly.com all my stuff's there, easy to find. 805 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:07,280 Awesome. All right. 806 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,400 Thanks again for tuning in. Until next time.