1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,360 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIGA Design 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,960 Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang Co, 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,920 Executive Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,920 professional association for Design. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,200 Hello everyone, I'm Julia Donatello, Design Competitions 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,480 and Event Manager at AIGA. In this 11th season of our 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,120 podcast, we are exploring the theme of Eyes on Design, which 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,880 is also the overarching theme of AI GS programming this year, 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 which includes this podcast and more which we'll be sharing 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,760 shortly. This season's theme is inspired 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,760 by the legacy of the acclaimed AIGA Ion design publication, 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,080 which ran from 2015 to 2022, Challenging our community to 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,240 look deeper, connect broadly, and think further about design. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,600 We're dedicating the season to fostering a new era of discourse 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,800 by critically analyzing the present, bridging disciplinary 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,240 divides, and boldly facing the future. 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,960 The three eyes include the Connecting Eye, which is 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,879 connecting design with other disciplines like technology, 19 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:09,760 science, art and culture. The Critical Eye We seek to 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,040 analyze thoughtful critique and design commentary using the 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,880 lenses that that check and analyze A broader cultural and 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,880 social landscape. And finally, the future eye. 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,440 The Third Eye is about keeping tabs on the evolving landscape 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,760 of design practice, emerging trends, and technologies, 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,120 including AIVRAR, and all sorts of other stuff as we design the 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,120 future together. Our guest this episode is Lisa 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,960 Grolnick, who's both the managing director of IF Design 28 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,800 USA and the global head of Sustainability and impact at IF 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,720 Design. She also hosts the Future of XYZ 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,040 podcast. Lisa, it's so great to have you 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,320 on the show. Neutron, it's a pleasure to be 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,840 here. Thanks so much for having me. 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,120 So let's just dive right in to a bit of your story, how you got 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,480 to where you are today. You had an interesting journey. 35 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,400 You studied political science in French in undergrad. 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,480 I'm also a poli sci major myself. 37 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,280 And then you later earned an MBA. 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,160 So how did design enter your life with this this start? 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,200 Not to belabor like the history, but I think it's material for 40 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,040 where I've landed. Design has always been forefront 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,120 to me. I grew up in a household that 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:34,440 was very focused on interiors, landscape architecture and 43 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,120 contemporary art. So that was really a big part of 44 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,720 my growing up, as was the natural environment. 45 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,400 So I really think about sustainability also and design 46 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,120 have kind of been the lenses weirdly, through which I've 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,320 probably experienced the world my whole life. 48 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,560 And when I went off to, I grew up in Southern California, but 49 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,320 when I went to college on the East Coast, because I'd spent my 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,400 summers on the East Coast in that same place or similar 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,520 place, I studied political science because we'd also been 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,840 very, very new centric at my house and cultural fairs and 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,240 things. So political science became an 54 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,800 obvious one to me because I thought I'd do psychology or 55 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,120 anthropology. But in the end, I got really 56 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,000 hooked on the poli sci and the lens of really thinking about 57 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,200 like post colonialism and identity politics. 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,560 I also had the luxury, I call it, of being considered like the 59 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,160 best dressed on campus, which was really not that complicated 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,160 in the 90s in rural Maine when you would come from a high 61 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,120 school that was double the size in Southern California. 62 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,280 But I did I I really loved clothing as an expression of 63 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,320 identity. And I ended up writing my 64 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,360 college thesis after junior year abroad and some stints in 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,000 advertising internships and advertising in various cities 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,200 around the world. I actually wrote my thesis on on 67 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,640 self versus others. So it was an identity politics 68 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,440 visioned thesis. I really wrote my thesis on 69 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,760 life. But because I'm making this 70 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,920 really long winded, I actually graduated. 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,800 And the day I graduated, I was had decided I was moving back to 72 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,680 Paris. And my boyfriend at the time 73 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,680 said to me, that's lovely, what are you going to do? 74 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,000 And I said, well, I bought this visa and you know, I didn't know 75 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,440 anything. So I thought that I could 76 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,040 actually get a job. But it turns out I probably for 77 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,520 two months could have like directed traffic on a on a tour 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,760 bus. But instead I got to Paris and I 79 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,240 said to him that day and they made it realize that I'm going 80 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,440 to work in fashion. And I ended up actually spending 81 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:50,960 the next almost nine years in the fashion world and really and 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,920 the intersection of the business and the creative doing kind of 83 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,440 both roles. And that's where I find myself 84 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,720 still. That's an amazing story. 85 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,480 Yeah, I love that. I love that Lisa. 86 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,360 Now shifting a little bit of the role that you have at IF design 87 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,360 at the moment. So we know that you oversee I 88 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,400 have design award which receives more than 10,000 entry entries 89 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,400 from around 70 countries every year from a person that also 90 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,040 manages design competitions from AIJ. 91 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,440 And one of them that is actually a very traditional more than 100 92 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,400 years old competition. The scale that I have design 93 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,120 award reaches is incredible. So I'm very curious to hear a 94 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,440 little bit of the backstage of the production. 95 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,000 So how is it to receive so many entries? 96 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,720 How does it work to choose the? I know there are, I think more 97 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,920 than 90 categories on on. Yeah, something on those lines 98 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:51,920 you did. Your research well. 99 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,720 Yeah, I know there are disciplines and the categories 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,200 and how do you choose the jury to to evaluate all that? 101 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,960 How long does it take the evaluation? 102 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,240 If you can share a little bit of the the backstage, we would love 103 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,360 to hear more. Yeah, absolutely. 104 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,000 I mean, you nailed it. So if design has been around 105 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,640 since 1953 in the post war period as the Brits were in 106 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,680 charge of kind of Northern Europe and we're looking to 107 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,080 rebuild Northern Germany and kind of moving N they named 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,960 Hanover, Germany as the location for what they became the Hanover 109 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,200 Mesa, which is a convention and it was for industrial design. 110 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,120 And so we were actually the original award component of the 111 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,720 Industrial Design Trade Fair, which was the largest, most 112 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,160 prestigious in the world for many, many, many years. 113 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,160 It's where, you know, Dieter Hams and Braun came out of and 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,800 everything else. So he was one of our original 115 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,440 jurors, for instance. And so we're coming up and he 116 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,840 actually was our first lifetime achievement award that we gave 117 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:56,560 two years ago and made his final public appearance at age 92 on 118 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,120 the award stage, which was pretty exceptional for everyone 119 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,800 in the room, 2500 people. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's so 120 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,120 we started in product design as the discipline and we've 121 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,720 subsequently, as you mentioned, evolved to 93 categories across 122 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,960 these 9 disciplines, which product is still definitely the 123 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,960 biggest. But under product, you have car 124 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,480 and transport design, you have sports, you have lighting, you 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,280 have now, you know, interconnected ecosystems, you 126 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,760 know, you have audio. I mean, it got babies and kids. 127 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,960 I mean, building materials. It goes on and on. 128 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Obviously audio and tech and all the things, but we also have 129 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,360 packaging design. We have branding and 130 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,320 communications design, which is both physical and digital, as 131 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,400 well as logos and stuff, really in AIG as wheelhouse. 132 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,840 We have services systems design, which is growing. 133 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,360 We have UXUI architecture and interior architecture as well as 134 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,920 concepts across those things that aren't coming to market, 135 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,720 which is really fun I have to say for architecture and 136 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,520 branding in my favorite categories for that. 137 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,640 But the you mentioned the jury process, the jury process and 138 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,760 it's really, I think what differentiates IF from most of 139 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,760 the other cross disciplinary and global awards out there is the 140 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,280 real rigor and objectivity of the process. 141 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,360 So it's a 2 step process. So the 10 to 11,000 entries we 142 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,680 get are juried individually by subject matter experts in that 143 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,840 this last year, we had 130 for jurors in that first online, 144 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,960 they take 3 1/2 days to jury between 300 and 500 entries each 145 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:37,120 across 5 criteria. So classic design, crit idea, 146 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,400 form and function, more kind of business, commercialization, 147 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,960 differentiation. And then, and I know we'll talk 148 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,360 about it a little bit, sustainability as of two years 149 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,360 ago is 20% of the score. So those are equally divided and 150 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,640 they have a zero to 100 score for each of those criteria. 151 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,240 So the overall become some factor of 500, right? 152 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:02,640 Yeah. Everyone gets their feedback 153 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,920 chart so they can see how individual jurors scored them in 154 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,560 those five criteria and then also how they compare to their 155 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:13,000 category on average and overall. On average at the end of the 156 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:19,280 preliminary jury, 50%, the top 50% of of of all entries, 157 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,120 regardless of geography, regardless of category move 158 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,480 forward. We don't balance. 159 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,320 So if you have really tough jurors in automotive, for 160 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,640 instance, who don't score, you might have a lot less automotive 161 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,440 in the final jury. Got it. 162 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,000 People are allowed to update their applications during a 163 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,640 short window in between and we encourage all entries that have 164 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,160 a physical sample to send to the final jury hall, which happens 165 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,040 either in Berlin or in Hamburg traditionally. 166 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,840 So in Germany this last year, which just happened in mid 167 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,800 February, our final jury was quite remarkable. 168 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,800 We had 500 more physical presentations than we've ever 169 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,680 had. So this really shows how people 170 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,800 are involved and understand that for the jurors to touch and feel 171 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,400 and really play with the things, it's really important. 172 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,720 Anything else is presented in, you know, on a screen. 173 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,640 And our jurors sit together for 2 1/2 days. 174 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,520 We bring the jurors together to, you know, it's very 175 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:18,800 confidential. There's no press. 176 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,400 And they discuss and they look at their starting scores from 177 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,560 the preliminary jury and then they discuss it together. 178 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,000 So it's much more group oriented. 179 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,080 And from that, we choose 1/3 as winner and we choose and then we 180 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,040 choose 75 gold winners, which is really the most prestigious 181 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,760 high, high end aspect of the I Have Design award. 182 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,560 And our jurors are, you know, global heads of design, chief 183 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:53,760 design officers for companies like Samsung, Hyundai, Sony, my 184 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,560 goodness, Mattel plus young, you know, not necessarily big 185 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,520 corporate leaders of Harmon, the audio company architects, the 186 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,360 president of the II, the International International 187 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,560 Interior Design Association, I can't speak and CE OS as well as 188 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,840 independent architects. So it's a really robust and 189 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,200 very, very senior group that really makes it quite 190 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,720 extraordinary when they all come together and share 2 1/2 days in 191 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,200 person, not only looking at what's considered the best of 192 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,640 design, but also really, you know, discussing where the 193 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,680 future is heading, which of course is the conversations I 194 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,040 like and where there's cross disciplinary things and what 195 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,040 kind of macro trends we're all seeing. 196 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,680 And it's, it's quite extraordinary. 197 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,480 And then we have a big party for the winners in Berlin at the end 198 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,600 of April. Oh, nice. 199 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,640 OK, wow, very, very cool. Amazing. 200 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,840 So as you just mentioned here that you're, I think I, I also 201 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,720 heard some other podcast interviews from you and you 202 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,480 mentioned that you consider yourself a, a futurist. 203 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,920 So looking back, why? How do you think I have Design 204 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:13,560 Awards has made it like it continued being a relevant award 205 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:15,800 And how do you see the future of it? 206 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,160 I, I love this question. You know, look, I, I do consider 207 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,920 myself a futurist. I, I find that it's very funny 208 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,640 as a futurist that the words that I use seem to somehow get 209 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,880 completely bastardized in some period of like, you know, two to 210 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,160 five years from the time I put something on my LinkedIn 211 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,240 profile, I can no longer say it, you know, like authentic brand 212 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,480 builder, like, you know, went the way of 15 years ago. 213 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,280 Then it was strategist. No one was calling themselves a 214 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:47,720 strategist and it went everywhere. 215 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,200 And now it's futurist. I don't say it anymore because 216 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:56,560 everyone's a futurist, but also because, you know, I think what 217 00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,320 it really means, all of those things actually mean the same 218 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,800 thing to me, which is, you know, you're really kind of just very 219 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,160 curious in, in life and, and reading the, the tea leaves, if 220 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,480 you will, and looking ahead and connecting the dots. 221 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,480 And I think you know IF when I came on board nearly three years 222 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,240 ago now to open the first ever North American subsidiary, I had 223 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,760 never heard of IF. And I've been in and around the 224 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,800 design world for a long time. And I think that's kind of what 225 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,640 we're coming up against is in the US, especially North 226 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,400 American market, IF is not well known in certain countries in 227 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,240 Germany, in Germany, in Europe, including Germany, obviously our 228 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,240 headquarters and certainly in certain industries, we are 229 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,960 extremely well known. We are also extremely well known 230 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:50,440 in the Far East, so Japan, China, Taiwan, South Korea, also 231 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:55,520 Turkey, Brazil, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, like places where 232 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,360 we've had a presence now for over 20 years. 233 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,680 We're very well known and considered the most prestigious 234 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,680 design award. So what we have to offer in the 235 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,840 US excites me as a as a futurist because we have a long legacy, 236 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,680 which is what makes it meaningful. 237 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,680 We've retained our relevance. We're only continuing to grow 238 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,280 since the pandemic, which is quite remarkable. 239 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,200 And what we're hearing in the US over and over again is how 240 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,200 relevant the award is. But now we also just introduced 241 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,240 the Academy, which is executive leadership for design leaders. 242 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,160 And that's hopefully I'll have a chance to talk about that a 243 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,040 little bit. But that really ties to the 244 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,760 mission of IF Design, which is a nonprofit foundation to really 245 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,960 help designers and the design industry at large kind of find 246 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,440 its relevance, keep its relevance. 247 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,120 So I I think we see ourselves as partners and facilitators and a 248 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,240 platform and just really a active member of the design 249 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,120 community globally, not as anything more or less than that. 250 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,720 Yeah, Yeah. No, I love that. 251 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,480 Yeah, it makes it makes a lot of sense. 252 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,080 And now I'm curious. You brought it, you briefly 253 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,560 mentioned that I think two years ago there was a change in the 254 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:16,120 criteria in the evaluation process of all of the categories 255 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,440 if I'm not mistaken and sustainability is now represents 256 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,400 20% of the evaluation. Can you elaborate a little bit 257 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,520 of how was the shift? How has it changed, how the if 258 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,680 it has, if you have seen already some type of changing in the 259 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:38,000 entries that have work folks who have submitted new entries, a 260 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,720 little bit of the background also of this shift. 261 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,840 I love that you asked about sustainability. 262 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,720 I love talking about it. When I came on, it was very 263 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,720 obvious to me that this social and environmental aspect was a 264 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,000 very, very important piece of everything for me. 265 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,400 I'd mentioned before Business School, I went to Business 266 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,520 School after fashion specifically to get into 267 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,480 sustainability and luxury and unfortunately graduate into the 268 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,880 financial collapse of 08 with a whole bunch of school debt. 269 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,760 And that was not the conversation that anyone, much 270 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,440 less the luxury sector was having. 271 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,920 And I've really been working on the sustainability side behind 272 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,880 the scenes, not maybe explicitly, but in each of my 273 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,480 roles. And so if I was going to take 274 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,240 this role with IF, it meant a lot to me that if we're going to 275 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,800 be this authority and partner to the design community, we were 276 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,760 going to need to take on sustainability. 277 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,520 And fortunately, the CEO who had come on about a year before me 278 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,960 after the prior CEO had been there for almost 30 years, he 279 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,960 also felt very strongly about this as did the award director 280 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,400 who had been there for about 30 years. 281 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,360 So this was really exciting collaboration and we pretty 282 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,120 quickly took what were the five criteria I mentioned before. 283 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,680 The fifth one previously had been impact and impact was kind 284 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,240 of confusing because it was both commercial impact as well as 285 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,240 social and environmental. And so we just renamed it 286 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,920 sustainability and we pushed the kind of leading question of 287 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,040 commercial impact into differentiation. 288 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,319 And, and then we focus sustainability and we've built 289 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:14,119 out a working team of outside experts who consult with us, if 290 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,040 you will, if you call them that, they, they consult with me and 291 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,000 our team on making sure that the application makes sense from the 292 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,720 questions and the criteria and the accreditations we're asking 293 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,240 about and really getting to the the biggest impact, which is 294 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,160 different for instance, in cars or audio or packaging or 295 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,640 architecture. So really trying to hone in on 296 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,760 by cap category, what is most important, but also then 297 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,400 advising the jurors, you know, in their during process, not as 298 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,160 jurors, but as expert advisors on the sustainability topic. 299 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,200 So we've really invested heavily on this. 300 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,640 I'm really proud of the work we're doing. 301 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,440 We just, as I mentioned, came out of the final jury and we had 302 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,000 one expert per jury chairperson, which really has helped 303 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,120 accelerate understanding acceptance. 304 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,920 And we look at this as a journey that we're helping our 305 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,320 participants become more aware of the topic and, and asking 306 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,440 more, but also our jurors. And yeah, you asked like, are we 307 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,120 seeing a difference? Like the answer is like the 308 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,680 quality of the responses is getting better. 309 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,920 We're learning about what we can ask without overwhelming the 310 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,400 person filling out the, the application. 311 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,680 And we always said we're rewarding good, not punishing 312 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,640 bad. And that's really to try to help 313 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,440 like, you know, rising tides lift all ships. 314 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,000 And that's really our, our attitude is like, let's bring 315 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,920 people along to make things better. 316 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,640 And I'm, I really, I think we're seeing that all the time. 317 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,000 And we have 4 gold winners this year that were randomly selected 318 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,680 by our sustainability experts as well as like best in show just 319 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,480 internally on the sustainability topic. 320 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,160 And, you know, we got our first ever 100 score in 321 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,560 sustainability, which was incredible. 322 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,520 So, you know, these are really exciting times and we're just 323 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,280 continuing to push and move forward. 324 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,160 Wow, I love it. Yeah. 325 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,320 I'd love to follow up a bit on the sustainability thread and 326 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,000 then also come back to this IF Design Academy, which is how we 327 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,680 first connected, Lisa. So in previous media that you've 328 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,400 been on, you've talked about returning to the repairable, the 329 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,360 reusable and updatable in design and also shifting from short 330 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,880 term to long term value. And so there's a lot of these 331 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,600 different ways of looking at sustainability as you've 332 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,800 mentioned. So how do you see companies and 333 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,440 designers doing that? I mean, I think it's going to 334 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,720 intersect nicely at least Sean probably with the talk of the 335 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,200 Academy. I, I think there's a real 336 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,280 challenge. I mean, there are a lot of 337 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,720 headwinds as we know, right, just in terms of accepting 338 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,640 sustainability moving forward, understanding what it is. 339 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,520 I think a lot of products are very complex and therefore it's 340 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,640 hard to know the difference. There are a lot of materials 341 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,200 that. You know, are nebulous. 342 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,120 Every market is different in terms of, I mean what what we 343 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:15,360 can single stream, you know, recycle in New York City is 344 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,080 different than in Providence, RI or Los Angeles, right. 345 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,080 So these are really interesting aspects. 346 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,960 One of the partners we've brought into this is what we 347 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,120 call the sustainability working group has been some of the 348 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,760 design leads from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. 349 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,120 And Ellen MacArthur Foundation is one of my favorite 350 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,720 organizations I've been involved with for a very long time who 351 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,200 are focused on kind of transitioning to the circular 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,680 economy. And all of those words that you 353 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,320 just use repairability, reuse, recycle, etcetera, are parts of 354 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,240 the, you know, eight step R ladder, which we ask people 355 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,000 about in our application. We don't call it the R ladder. 356 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,200 We don't ask about the circularity. 357 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,840 We ask is it repairable, is it recyclable? 358 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,440 Is it reusable, right? Is it refusable? 359 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,680 We don't ask that because then they wouldn't be there. 360 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,000 They wouldn't have built it. But that's really, you know, 361 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,840 kind of how we're leading, if you will, leading the witness to 362 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,800 try to understand in bed. We are seeing this last year 363 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,720 very candidly, that people check a lot of boxes. 364 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,760 And then when you actually get into, well, where they get to 365 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,360 write something about it, there's not always justified and 366 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,120 it's not conscious greenwashing. I think that there's a real lack 367 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,240 of understanding. And again, someone filling out 368 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,240 the application may not have full purview. 369 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,960 But if you say that you're, I mean, use the headphones as an 370 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,960 example, right, are repairable. You have both designers who 371 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,240 understand what that is because they're experts in audio design 372 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,520 of the best quality in the world. 373 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,160 And then you have a sustainability expert in this 374 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,520 topic, right? And so you're able to look at 375 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,240 this headphone and say, well, they say it's repairable, except 376 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,560 that none of these pieces seem to come apart. 377 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,480 It's molded plastic with foam like. 378 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,160 And again, we reward good, we don't punish bad. 379 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,640 So that doesn't mean that they get knocked down. 380 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,880 It just means that they don't get recognized, you know, but 381 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,080 their materiality might actually be superior. 382 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,800 So it's all a discussion, but it really invokes these 383 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,120 conversations that are really meaningful. 384 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:20,800 And So what we're seeing is our jurors get more aware and 385 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,720 because our jurors oftentimes, you know, they can't jury their 386 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,560 own projects. That's like a it's very clear 387 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,920 cut, right? Like, you know, someone from 388 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,480 Samsung steps away if the Samsung is is on the table and 389 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,920 there's a very clear process for that. 390 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,280 But if they become aware of oh, wow, we said this, but that's 391 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,280 actually not true. Oh, well, there's another way of 392 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,520 doing it that helps everyone, you know, because the when the 393 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,560 leaders in market and the lead the people are applying for IS 394 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,400 they're either some, they're not all big companies, right? 395 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,320 They're like leading design studios. 396 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,680 They're young designers starting out and trying to make their 397 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,560 mark. The more that they all can feel 398 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,200 invested in these answers to these questions, the hope is of 399 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,120 course, that, you know, they become more informed and then it 400 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:06,480 trickles out into the marketplace and then it becomes 401 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,760 more adopted by consumers. And that's the role we hopefully 402 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,640 get to play without being too naive about the impact. 403 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,720 I think that's actually a really good segue to talking about IF 404 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,000 design Academy. But just to synthesize a little 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,640 bit of what you've been saying, Lisa, it's almost like having 406 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,920 these criteria of sustainability as part of the application form 407 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,600 when people submit is both there's like a pedagogical value 408 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,040 to those designers as well as well as a pedagogical value to 409 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,120 the jurors saying like, oh, wow, this is something that I'm being 410 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:42,080 asked to evaluate on, right. And you're like setting a 411 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,600 standard in that sense. And people can go away and say, 412 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,800 like, OK, how do we learn more about this for next time around? 413 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,160 I think it's a great summary at least Shawn and the only thing 414 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,120 I'll add to it if you guys don't mind. 415 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:00,080 To the best of our knowledge, we are the only cross disciplinary 416 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,960 or global design award that now has embedded sustainability 417 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,640 fully into the primary during criteria of an award across 418 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,840 everything and not calling it out separately. 419 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,520 So that was really important to us in in, in the work we're 420 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,000 doing and the decision making. And I think that's really where 421 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,360 we're seeing the difference. If we called it out separately, 422 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,400 it wouldn't have the same impact, right? 423 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,880 Because now we're demanding that, you know, the Ferrari, 424 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,680 right? Who, who is there? 425 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,520 They better explain like, what are they doing, you know? 426 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:33,920 Totally. Yeah. 427 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,280 So we've talked about like using these award criteria as a form 428 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,760 of educating designers and jurors. 429 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,520 But IF Design has also created programming that's explicitly 430 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,040 educational. And in fact, as I mentioned, we 431 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,240 met last year in New York City at a launch event for the IF 432 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,200 Design Academy. You all have launched with 433 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,360 initially 5 courses, I believe, on design leadership. 434 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:02,160 So can you tell us more about that move into education as like 435 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,680 an explicit space that IF is taking? 436 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,360 Absolutely. I'm really excited about this. 437 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,760 I think coming into a new market, I mean, I say new Apple 438 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,440 has won more IF design awards than any other company in the 439 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,880 world. There are a lot of companies in 440 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,120 the US who have already participated in the IF design 441 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:23,920 award. It's just mostly product and, 442 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,640 and just not very well known as a brand. 443 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,120 And you know, it's one thing to try to convince people to apply 444 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:33,120 for a design award that doesn't have brand recognition and that 445 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,480 cost in the end close to €3000 if you win. 446 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,920 But it's a whole other to say, well, actually we're a design 447 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,040 institute. We're a nonprofit. 448 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,560 Our mission of the foundation that owns us at 100% shareholder 449 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,920 right is in fact the future of design in terms of making and 450 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,520 serving the world, making it better, serving the world world, 451 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,160 solving the world's biggest problems. 452 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,840 And it's a design. It's, it's, it's really, it's a 453 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,600 design is to focus on research and education on this topic. 454 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,000 And so I can talk about the IF design award. 455 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,240 I can talk about our content, you know, which we put out an 456 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,360 annual trend report, which is big macro trends and very 457 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,800 robust. We put out an online magazine. 458 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,000 We support the podcast now, A Future of XYZ, that's part of 459 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,600 Sandow's Surround Podcast network as well. 460 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,080 And we have two other awards, which is like the Social Impact 461 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,000 prize and the student award, which get about 15,000 entries 462 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,040 across the two every year across 130 countries and support or 463 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,440 solve for one or more of the UN Sustainable Development Goals. 464 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,960 And those are free to enter and we give €150,000 of prize money 465 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,840 away. So we have a really big mission, 466 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,080 but that's all great. They're all awards and yeah. 467 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,120 Yeah. And so I'm really excited that 468 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,520 the Academy launched last September when you and I met 469 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,440 because I, I think I, I think as someone who's been at the 470 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,520 intersection of business and design my whole career, that 471 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,640 designers really do themselves a disservice because they don't 472 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,760 speak the language of business. And historically, it's kind of 473 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,880 been OK, but it's increasingly not because the world is run by 474 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,560 money. And frankly, the business, I 475 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,760 mean, certainly coming from an NBA, like the, the business 476 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,240 people don't really care what the designers think unless 477 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,360 they're a certain kind of business leader, right? 478 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,360 Who has that empathy, that creative mind? 479 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,760 And I think that they're two different sides of the brain 480 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,600 that are used. And increasingly, for the world 481 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,320 to be better, we need design to be better and we need it to be 482 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,080 elevated. And so when we think about why 483 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,720 we launched the IF Design Academy, it's in order. 484 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,440 Again, the primary mission is to support the international design 485 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,560 community. And the way to do that is to 486 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,520 ensure that designers of all levels are better educated, not 487 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,480 not in design, they're educated in design, but in how about 488 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,160 things like, you know, personal development, personal growth, 489 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,640 you know, how to be a better leader. 490 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,520 How do you, how do you develop your leadership identity? 491 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,880 How do you speak the language of business, right? 492 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Like increase your business fluency Like that one is to me, 493 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,920 like super passionate. How do you operationalize in 494 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,480 scale design? You know, how do you build an 495 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,680 internal design team at scale if that's what you're being tasked 496 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,800 with, you know, and then how do you lead with insight towards 497 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,200 the future, whether that's about AI, whether that's about other 498 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,200 emerging texts? And how can we support designers 499 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,680 from around the world in getting these skills in short order so 500 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,720 that they're better positioned to be able to to have the 501 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,800 conversations that actually matter today, which really 502 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,320 increasingly are conversations about, you know, cost. 503 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,720 Is this necessary? You know, why do that? 504 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,360 And, and we don't want design to be relegated to those terms. 505 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,080 We want design to be, you know, forefront at the table and and 506 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,400 for designers to be able to advocate for a design in 507 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,560 themselves. Yeah, You know, that's something 508 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,560 that comes up a lot here at AIGA. 509 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,320 We have this long time partnership with the Yale School 510 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,680 of Management called Business Perspectives for Creative 511 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,440 Leaders. And one of the things when we 512 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,360 talk about that program is, you know, it's meant for like mid 513 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,920 career to fairly senior creative leaders is that the skills that 514 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,520 help designers get to where they are in into leadership positions 515 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,240 like that gets you so far. But then there's this other 516 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,560 stuff, as you were mentioning, Lisa, about like leadership or 517 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,760 understanding systems when it comes to to ability that is not 518 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,160 necessarily taught in design school. 519 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,920 Or maybe you don't need that until you reach a certain stage 520 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,240 of your career, right? And so this life long learning 521 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,760 and having different options of finding what's right for you and 522 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,560 is modular, you know, without having to everybody go back to 523 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,520 school for a degree is so important. 524 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,440 Completely. And I mean, it's so interesting 525 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,440 because what you just said is what I what I hear a lot, what 526 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,800 we've been hearing a lot, which is you get to a certain stage in 527 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,320 your career and what got you there is not what then is going 528 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,960 to make you successful going forward. 529 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,720 Totally. And then you are also dipping 530 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,280 into AI stuff in your curriculum as well. 531 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,520 So leadership leading AI strategy and design, I believe 532 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,280 is one of the upcoming topics for the Academy. 533 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,600 Can you give us a teaser for that? 534 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,000 You totally I am so excited about this one I'm excited about 535 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,040 it for a whole bunch of reasons. I'm excited because it's truly 536 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,480 for anyone and frankly it's for design leaders, but I'm like I 537 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,920 don't I don't think you have to be a design leader to want to 538 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,400 take this class right. I think you could be a business 539 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,960 person who wants to understand how AI can be used in design not 540 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920 to cost cut not to get rid of jobs. 541 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,360 Please give me a break to actually really like be used 542 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,760 well and effectively because it's coming for all of us 543 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,400 etcetera and what are the tools? What are the structures? 544 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,640 So I'm really excited for that reason, but I'm also really 545 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,120 excited because it's a different format than all the other 546 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,200 courses we're testing. It's only week long instead of a 547 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,120 seven week, you know, multi touch point course, which is 548 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,680 also phenomenal with these, you know, the the former head of 549 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,160 design at IBM and all sorts of, I mean, really amazing people 550 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480 who are teaching. This is a one week Sprint. 551 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,320 It's also with an amazing leader. 552 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,560 His name's Tay Bannerman. He's a former partner and head 553 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,520 of design at McKinsey. He's an AI. 554 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,560 I hate the word guru, so I won't say it, but AI expert. 555 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,440 He actually was on the podcast right before Halloween. 556 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320 We, we did a really spooky episode on the future of being 557 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,880 replaced because he's like wants to talk about like why AI is not 558 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,440 going to replace you. So we did a future of being 559 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,480 replaced. It's gonna happen in June. 560 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,240 It's a one week course. It's called AI Strategy for 561 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,960 Design Leaders. And it's really about how do 562 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,680 design leaders make confident decisions about AI? 563 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,120 And it's for leaders who need to evaluate AI opportunities, 564 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,720 understand their organizational readiness, which is, you know, 565 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,680 is it ready for adoption? Is it not? 566 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,000 Yeah. And speak really, most 567 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,960 importantly, credibly about AI in any room. 568 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,720 So it's, it's gonna be awesome. I would say it's probably going 569 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,000 to sell out really fast. And so people can go to sorry 570 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,440 for the shameless bug. IF designacademy.com to to to 571 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,440 check that out and register as soon as registrations open, 572 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,720 which I can't tell you when that is, but it will be soon if it 573 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,160 hasn't already opened. Sounds like a great summer 574 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,440 school kind of experience for creative leaders. 575 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,160 I think so, and it's all. It's all online, so no one has 576 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,560 to displace themselves to to get to a class. 577 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,480 So Lisa, in your Fast, Fast Company piece called where are 578 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,400 all the designers you mentioned and the designers are still 579 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,720 being under represented in the strategic decision making and a 580 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,400 lot in the C-Suite teams they're lacking designers. 581 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,640 Do you feel that the companies a couple decades ago have embraced 582 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:14,240 the design thinking methods and framework mostly democratized by 583 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,480 IDO and and and so on, and then they drift back to the old 584 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,040 models? Did you feel this shift to 585 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,600 everyone adapting and understanding and valuing design 586 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,160 as a discipline and as a professional and then now kind 587 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,960 of going back to old models or not? 588 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,240 How do you see this change? It's a big, big question, Julia. 589 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,520 I'm not sure that I am as qualified here to, to answer, 590 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,680 you know, such a big question. But I'll, I'll share my 591 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,000 perspective, which is, I think you use idea as the example. 592 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,000 They kind of democratize this idea of design thinking. 593 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,120 And about 3 years ago, I had an interview with someone who was 594 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,120 at RISD, is now at the Harvard Graduate School of Design. 595 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,520 And the topic of the conversation ended up being the 596 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,960 future of complexity. But the conversation that was 597 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,560 joking was, should it be the future of design thinking? 598 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,360 And his response was design thinking's dead. 599 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:21,760 And he wasn't the only one right who feels that way. 600 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,440 And this is a designer, of course, and an educator and an 601 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,719 independent creative. And I think what's happened is, 602 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:37,360 as always, the bottom line rules out or rules and wins out or 603 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,719 rules. I think, I think from my own 604 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:47,480 experiences, very candidly, money has always been the 605 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,719 driver. And there was a moment in there 606 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,719 when Apple was surging, when Steve Jobs came back in, when he 607 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,240 had just come out of a very successful run at Pixar and came 608 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,800 back into Apple. And it was all the Ridge. 609 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,440 I mean, you know, valuations were off the charts. 610 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,080 You know, stock prices and dividends, restoring consumer 611 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,480 loyalty was everywhere. And you say, like, this is all 612 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,720 about design. And it was, that's actually not 613 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,480 changed. It's just the perception and the 614 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,720 way people talk about it and the appetite. 615 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,960 Steve Jobs got it, right. Like he understood that you 616 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,600 create an integrated ecosystem and not only is that going to 617 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200 increase your sales, but it's going to build loyalty because 618 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,160 it all works better, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, 619 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,680 right. I mean, there are also some 620 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,520 downsides that I'm not going to get into. 621 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,840 Tesla tried to do the same thing when they started building out, 622 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,160 you know, like their plug their their electric grid across the 623 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,840 country and across the world, except that it wasn't with the 624 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,320 same attitude of consumer first. It was for the money, it was for 625 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,720 stickiness and it didn't work right. 626 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,360 So I think what's happening right now is that there is a 627 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,360 real sour taste in people's mouth. 628 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,200 That design thinking failed. That design is somehow expensive 629 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,680 and frivolous. I can't come up. 630 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:16,440 I can't speak trivial and frivolous mixed into one word. 631 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,680 That was where I was going with that. 632 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,200 That's cute. But yeah, I think that's, I 633 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,840 think that's really what's happened and I don't think 634 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,200 that's true. And so when you think about the 635 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,840 under representation of designers in the C-Suite or any 636 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,880 strategic decision making table or room, there's a problem. 637 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,120 This is true at the policy level too. 638 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,440 When you think about it right, at the policy level, you don't 639 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,520 have design thinkers. There are no solutions being 640 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,800 formed. There are tactics and short 641 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,520 termism. You know, fundamentally design 642 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,040 is everything. I mean, Lord Norman Foster said 643 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,920 that he was our second lifetime achievement award last year and 644 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,000 he said design is everything and everywhere. 645 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,000 We all believe this. I just watched the film 646 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,760 Modernist Inc. It was a 2023 movie about Elliot 647 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,040 Noyes. You know who's one of the 648 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:08,760 Harvard Five and one of the amazing designers, cross 649 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,160 disciplinary designers of the world who created the IBM logo 650 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,600 plus all sorts of the IBM products, Mobil Oil, I mean, you 651 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,800 go on and on. And their logos are still in 652 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,520 place, right? Since their 50s and 60s. 653 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,160 And they created an identity that connected consumers with 654 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,880 corporate entities and made them believe in ways that still exist 655 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,160 today. Like design is not frivolous. 656 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,480 It is not a cost center. It is not a nice to have. 657 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,600 It is how you find solutions, right? 658 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,240 It is a design thinking is problem solving, right? 659 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,160 There's no designer who's like, oh, yeah, I already know the 660 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,960 answer. It's like, well, what was the 661 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,120 question, right? That is. 662 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,520 And when you're talking about branding, whether you're talking 663 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,040 about a book design, whether you're talking about a magazine 664 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,960 layout, it doesn't make any difference what you're 665 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,560 designing. It could be a whole city. 666 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,960 You know, you're, you're getting designers think bigger. 667 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,400 They think in systems, you know, and we have to celebrate that 668 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,680 because that's what the world needs today, not just on the 669 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,920 sustainability front, but on fundamental economics. 670 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,040 If we're going to do better and survive and if we keep just 671 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,360 building stuff that's like meant to maximize your quarterly 672 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,120 profit, I mean, we're just going to end up in a race to the 673 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,920 bottom, which is kind of, you know, a very sad place that I 674 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,880 don't think that serves the business people either, 675 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,640 ultimately. Yeah, sorry, that was a 2 box 676 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,360 and 1/2. I wanted to build off of that 677 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,720 design thinking point. I think design thinking was 678 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,200 almost a victim of its own success in a way, in the way 679 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,840 that it became like such a buzzword. 680 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,960 Like I was involved in taking these trainings up to the level 681 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,080 of like teaching these trainings, you know, in 682 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,040 boardrooms to non designers. And it was great in terms of a 683 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,840 learning experience. I think it was sometimes 684 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,160 oversold or it was kind of sold as just a training without 685 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,200 actually operationalizing, which we can talk about now applying 686 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,640 to AI as well as sustainability, right? 687 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,240 Where it's like, OK, this becomes such a big thing that 688 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:06,680 everyone's talking about, people want to learn about it. 689 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,560 They do learn about it. And then there's still that like 690 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,520 application step of like, how do you operationalize it? 691 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,920 And often times it was just, you know, companies were willing to 692 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,640 invest in the design thinking trainings, but not really think 693 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,520 about how they change their way of business, doing business. 694 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,760 Absolutely. And, and look, I, I spent time 695 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,960 after Business School at the Boston Consulting Group in 696 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,880 management consulting, right? I mean, that was a strange, 697 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,760 hard, hard left pivot in my career, but it gave me insight 698 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,280 after having been kind of sequestered in the world of high 699 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:47,720 fashion luxury retail magazines into the big challenges that big 700 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,000 companies face at a global level. 701 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:54,760 And I am forever grateful for the experience because of the 702 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,520 unique position I had there, which was sitting with some of 703 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,080 the senior leadership in the consumer practice and the 704 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,960 regional practice and really getting to see what was best 705 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,880 practice for these big companies and what were the challenges 706 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,320 that they needed solving. And this was 2008, 2009, so 707 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,240 right after, you know, kind of Great Recession timing. 708 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,080 And I think what you just said is true and what that lesson 709 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,760 taught me. And then going to Adidas, where 710 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,880 I was in charge of some change management, did a lot of change 711 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,320 management in my career. Subsequently, you know, if you 712 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:30,080 lift a rock in any of these big corporations, you know, you 713 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,840 think that you're going to just turn over the rock and then 714 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,080 you're going to fix what's underneath. 715 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,400 And and then all of a sudden I, it's a nasty visual, but like 716 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,320 it's true. Like all the critters go 717 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,440 scattering totally and you're like, Oh my God, what have I 718 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,920 done? Like, because every single one 719 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,560 of these companies and we come back to Elliott noise, like in 720 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,320 the 50s, IBM, it was a transition from father to son 721 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,960 taking over. It was, it was a business 722 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,280 growth. You know, you were starting to 723 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,160 think about mainframe computers being used for like, you know, 724 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,920 mathematical computations at scale, but they were like 725 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,960 mainframes that were like as big as, you know, a Walmart, you 726 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,520 know, and, and that's changed. And so in order to adapt to the 727 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,480 times, these companies, I, I joke it's like architecture, you 728 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,240 know, they started as a, you know, a central hallway, you 729 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,680 know, colonial. And then they built on like, you 730 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,320 know, the, the neo revivalist, like, you know, addition. 731 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,320 And then that like started collapsing. 732 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,840 And so they added a modern wing and then they added the second 733 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,320 story again. And then, you know, it just 734 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,200 became something that if you open one door, you kind of have 735 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,800 to take it all down. And that's of course not viable. 736 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,880 And so there's a lot of patching. 737 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,560 And of course, in the public market, you're incentivized only 738 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,640 to think in terms of quarters. You are dinged on the public 739 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,400 market for capital investments unless capital expenditures, 740 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,400 unless the market deems that worthy of their money, right. 741 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,480 And so privately held companies have a lot more opportunity to 742 00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,160 to kind of integrate much more deeply the the design thinking 743 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,440 if they so choose. And I think that's what you've 744 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,160 really seen is it was a victim of its own success. 745 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,600 I think business people were like, oh, cool, this is cute 746 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,240 with like the sticky colored sticky notes all over the walls. 747 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,560 But they didn't get that systems are what matter. 748 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,400 They're like, we want it solved now because that short termism 749 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,720 is, is the way that you are efficient and effective in cash 750 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,560 is king because that's what you learn in Business School. 751 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,560 And I know I'm a little cynical, but I think that we really do 752 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,040 have these houses or buildings that have been constructed with, 753 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,000 you know, kind of like completely Frankenstein at this 754 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,560 point. And, and in order to not lift a 755 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,240 rock and have a million critters scatter that you have to then 756 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:45,440 fix and put back and figure out, it requires design thinking, but 757 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,520 it requires systems thinking and cross disciplinary, cross 758 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:55,520 functional cross industry, cross regional, cross geographic 759 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,320 collaboration regulation used to help with that regulation is no 760 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,400 longer really helping with any of it, unfortunately. 761 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,840 And so it's the onus is on the organization's themselves to I 762 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,160 think re embrace design thinking for the future. 763 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,720 And the design thinking for the future really has to be like, 764 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,200 how do we, how do we figure out a system that supports 765 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:22,040 efficiency, productivity, profitability, sustainability, 766 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,920 like all the abilities, right, employability, consumer loyalty, 767 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,600 so. So Lisa, as someone who is 768 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,800 interested in the future you, you brought a little bit about 769 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:39,160 more about the the IF Design Academy programs and the AI 770 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,720 course that is coming soon. I think in June. 771 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:47,600 You mentioned how do you think the next generation will learn 772 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,400 design skills and how do you think they can balance becoming 773 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,600 fluent in AI without compromising their creative and 774 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:01,560 critical thinking? We have to do we have a do we 775 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,400 have a couple of hours for this? I. 776 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,040 I think we have to sign up for that week long course. 777 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,960 Yeah, I know. I think that we need a symposium 778 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,600 on the topic of like the, the, the teaching, the youth, because 779 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,800 the youth will teach us as they always do. 780 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,440 But there are two major risks right now, which is the critical 781 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,640 thinking, right? The curiosity and the critical 782 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,080 thinking. Because AI is a tool, right? 783 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,640 If you believe everything that AI tells you and can't discern 784 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,640 the difference, that's no longer critical thinking. 785 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,720 Your creativity will die on the spot because you're accepting 786 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:39,360 something that is fact that isn't necessarily it. 787 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,600 Also, I I heard it described by designer the other day really 788 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,160 nicely. Like AI makes everything kind of 789 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,440 perfect, kind of flattens everything. 790 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,680 But like, where's that human? Like where's the roughness? 791 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,200 Like when people used to go to design school and I'm even old 792 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,080 enough for this to have been how people learned in design school. 793 00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:00,640 You didn't models you like worked with your hands, right? 794 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,480 Like you have to build my kids like, you know, one of the 795 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,920 biggest architectural firms in the world just recently 796 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,760 announced that they're closing their model department, right? 797 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,560 Like they're not even building models, right? 798 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,560 And and so that's where we learn. 799 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,400 I mean, you can't learn if you're not touching it. 800 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,960 And people can argue and they will, right? 801 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,600 I mean, the young people listening to this will be like, 802 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,840 she doesn't know what she's talking about anymore, like if 803 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,640 they ever thought I did. But I think that there is a 804 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,640 tactile piece to learning that's a feedback, It's a visual 805 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,760 feedback. And there is scientific evidence 806 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,520 over and over that when we engage our five senses together, 807 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,720 things stick better. We learn better, the information 808 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,360 integrates better. And if we just plug it into a 809 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,000 machine and it spits out some version of something that is 810 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,640 like a hybrid of what we're thinking, but we accept it at 811 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,400 face value without pressure testing or knowing even what 812 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,080 questions to ask of it, I think we risk both critical thinking, 813 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,640 but also creativity. So how they're going to learn 814 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,160 it, you know, they have to want to, they have to recognize that 815 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,480 it's something that they might actually have a blind spot to 816 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,280 and be willing to listen to their elders, which could be 817 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,720 only five years older than them, to be honest, at this point. 818 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,800 And their teachers and and hopefully get out in the street 819 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,520 and roll around in the mud and build a skateboard and smash 820 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,200 their lip and like figure out that like the wheels didn't work 821 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,400 the way they thought. And, you know, whatever that 822 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,400 example is, you know, cut your finger off with an exacto knife. 823 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,600 Like learn what it takes to make things. 824 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,960 I think is part of this. Yeah, reminds me of that, I 825 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,400 guess classic, but maybe going away framework for design 826 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,040 education of head, heart and hands, right. 827 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,520 It's like, oh, you've got to think critically. 828 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,080 You need to have that empathy with your heart and then the 829 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,480 hands of just like the hands on craft part of it. 830 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,920 And I think if we lose that, like losing even more of a grip 831 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,560 on reality, right, when everything is so mediated 832 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,320 through screens and simulations and and AI models. 833 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,360 I mean, Lishan, you just said something also, I mean, yes, 834 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,680 absolutely on the hands, but also on the heart. 835 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,760 If you don't know what's real and you don't question, how do 836 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,840 you develop empathy if you're only listening to a machine? 837 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,600 Like you need to get out and talk to and listen to and engage 838 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,200 with different kinds of perspectives and different 839 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,000 experiences in order to develop that empathy, that heart muscle. 840 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,240 And it is. It's a core piece of, of, of 841 00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:37,720 being a great designer. Yeah, I think for me, what the 842 00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,800 tension that I'm feeling on my end here is mostly like, if you 843 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,720 think a couple decades ago we used to write more with our 844 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:50,800 hands, right? And now it's all typing and and 845 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,240 yeah, we barely use pens anymore. 846 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,640 And so as a society, I think we there is some collective 847 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,480 agreement, agreement that we don't need to write with our 848 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,280 hands anymore so much because that's somehow an unlearned, we 849 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,000 unlearned it. They don't teach kids cursive 850 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,360 anymore. Exactly. 851 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,320 And so now I'm thinking like, what are we as a society with 852 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,520 all these AI tools that are now, you know, booming? 853 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,880 What are we deciding that we are going to unlearn? 854 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,000 Because of course there will be some, some some big changes on 855 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,200 that. And that's a little bit of my my 856 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,240 conflict and friction here on yes, we're going to adjust many 857 00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:31,000 things, but what are we deciding to, you know, unlearn in a way? 858 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,480 I I, I love because there's only so much room, right? 859 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,560 There's only so much time in the day or room in our heads or I 860 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,040 don't know what the answer is. I think it's a really 861 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,560 provocative question, Julia, of like, what are we going to 862 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,080 unlearn in order to be able to learn what we need to learn for 863 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,480 the future? And I think that cursive or just 864 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,760 handwriting in general is an example. 865 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,040 And if you played that out, like in terms of like, if people 866 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,600 don't need paper anymore, right? Like, I mean, are people going 867 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,680 to stop being able to read because they listen And like, 868 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,760 you know, on and on and on it goes. 869 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,000 And like the post office, you actually need to send things if 870 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,320 people aren't like, whatever. I know those are like 871 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,760 extrapolations, but they're the first ones that come to mind. 872 00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:17,440 It's again the lift, the rock and a million things go 873 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,080 scattering. Like I wonder what we're going 874 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,440 to unlearn and then what the ramifications of that are going 875 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:28,680 to be that in 5-10, fifteen, 5500 years we couldn't possibly 876 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,480 know. And that, to me, is actually a 877 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,840 fascinating question and and worthy also of its own own 878 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,200 conversations. Yeah, I think it definitely 879 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,880 deserves like a whole symposium. As we wrap up our time together 880 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,520 in this conversation though, Lisa, we like to end with a few 881 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,560 sort of rapid fire questions to get to know more about you and 882 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,360 how you think. So the first one is if there's 883 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,200 one thing that you could redesign from scratch, it could 884 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,880 be a product, a service, a space, whatever that is, what 885 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,320 would it be and what are some of the changes you would make? 886 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,080 Social media. Yes. 887 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,440 Yes, social media. I mean, in every way I would 888 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:14,760 have accountability. I'm just gonna, can I just stop 889 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:15,680 there? Social media. 890 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,920 Yeah, I think that, yeah, definitely. 891 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,360 And then who is a person, whether a designer or some other 892 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,440 kind of professional, from the present or from history, who 893 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,880 inspires you for not just their work, but like who they are as a 894 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,840 person? I mean, they're there are so 895 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,400 many people on a daily basis who I come across who are inspiring 896 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,600 and throughout history, of course, also, I think that's 897 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:50,200 kind of what keeps us all hopeful are are the people who 898 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,320 just see through or are courageous, who I don't know who 899 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,200 make a difference. But one of my favourites, not 900 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,240 certainly at the top of all, but she always comes to mind is 901 00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:07,480 Madeleine Albright. Madeleine Albright to me, I 902 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,160 mean, first of all, she was a former Secretary of State, but 903 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,360 she had she did so much and you know, she didn't even start her 904 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,680 career until she was in her mid 40s. 905 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,840 She'd been a stay at home mom. You know, she'd escaped from, 906 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,480 you know, kind of Nazi East Germany or Eastern Europe and 907 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,800 came to the States, got educated, became married and 908 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,960 mother and then started her career late. 909 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,760 And it comes back to my geeky, like, political science 910 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,080 background, you know, but she was a brilliant, brilliant 911 00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,880 leader and strategist and critical thinker and, and 912 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,040 frankly creative, out-of-the-box teacher. 913 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,840 I mean, she educated those around her through her heart, 914 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:54,360 her and her and her head and her quote, you know, specifically 915 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,240 feminist quote. But there's a special place in 916 00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:58,120 hell for women who don't support other women. 917 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:00,960 Has always been one of my mottos. 918 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,440 I think women really need to step up for other women always. 919 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,120 And not only women, but I just think that's actually, I think 920 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:09,880 there's a special place in health for people who don't 921 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,080 stand up for other people in general, regardless of, of 922 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:18,800 gender or race or ethnicity or, you know, I don't know anything 923 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,720 else. So I'm that's probably who I'd 924 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:26,280 have to answer. Love it. 925 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,240 And to wrap up Lisa, we wanted to hear from you. 926 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,520 Like if you have anything that has been inspiring you lately, 927 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,760 that could be a book, a film, an exhibition, a music, an album 928 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:43,160 that is currently feeding your your creative soul. 929 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,080 I mean, I always answer this question there, there. 930 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,160 I could go on and on and on. I mean, I'm pretty like I'm 931 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:50,920 putting lots in my brain all the time. 932 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,840 My guests for future of XYZ. Every single one blows my mind. 933 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,840 Every participant and juror and the I Have Design award. 934 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,560 But honestly, my greatest creative inspiration is always 935 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,200 nature. I call it my religion. 936 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,760 Nature's my religion. I I whatever this season, 937 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,000 wherever I am, like taking a deep breath of fresh air and 938 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,720 seeing a flower or seeing a blade of grass or a tree and or 939 00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,040 mountain or ocean or river, whatever. 940 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,400 It's just small or big. It's that's that's always my 941 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,800 creative inspiration. Love it. 942 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,880 Yeah, that what a great way to wrap up this conversation. 943 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,800 Lisa Grolnick is the managing director of IF Design USA and 944 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,000 the global head of sustainability and impact at If 945 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,040 Design. For all of you listening or 946 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,480 watching this, if you're watching it on YouTube, please 947 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,280 subscribe and leave us a comment. 948 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,640 You can also e-mail us at podcast at aig.org. 949 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,120 We'll post links to these references in the show notes. 950 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,320 Otherwise, we will see you at a future AIG event or another 951 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,040 episode of the show. Until next time, bye everyone. 952 00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:58,200 Bye.