1 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:08,000 Hello and welcome to a live edition of design future. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,100 Now a podcast from aiga, the professional association for 3 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:14,000 design. On this show, we have 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,400 conversations with designers and other creative professionals to 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,000 learn about how they've designed their lives and how they're 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,200 thinking about and crafting the future. 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,700 My name is Li Xiang zhuang broadcasting from Cambridge 8 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:28,300 Massachusetts. I am the director of design 9 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:29,800 learning and content here at aii. 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,300 GA and for the folks tuning in live, we always like to know 11 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:35,000 where are you tuning in from today? 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,100 You can let us know in the comments. 13 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,800 Say hello, connect with your fellow participants and just a 14 00:00:40,808 --> 00:00:44,700 quick reminder about our code of conduct this event and other 15 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:47,600 aiga of fans are governed by the code of conduct. 16 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:49,800 Basically, keep it. Nice friendly, professional and 17 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,100 will be a okay. So, without further Ado, Our 18 00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:58,000 Guest today is joining us from Ottawa Canada or friends in the 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,900 north. He is a creative director. 20 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Her agency owner author, creativity professor, and a 21 00:01:04,208 --> 00:01:07,700 founding member of our GD. The association of registered 22 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:10,800 graphic designers sort of like our Canadian counterparts to 23 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,000 aiga here in the US and he's a chief creative officer of an 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,600 agency called green melon. And we'll be talking today. 25 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,200 Also about his Design Story, where he's been in his career 26 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:25,300 and his coaching and mentoring practice at think Smith, and as 27 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:29,000 well as his upcoming book, his second book, Sir Robert Smith. 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,400 Thank you for joining us. Today, thank you so much. 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,100 And good morning. Good afternoon. 30 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:36,800 Good evening to everybody in their time zones. 31 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:39,700 Thank you so much for having me on. 32 00:01:39,700 --> 00:01:43,400 This is a great honor for sure. Awesome. 33 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,800 Yeah. And just to acknowledge the 34 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,100 audience, it looks like we've got Toronto, representing some 35 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:51,500 New York's of Atlanta. It's good to hear from people 36 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:53,200 from different parts of the world. 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,500 So Robert, tell us a little bit more about your story. 38 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:59,800 You wear many hats like a lot of us these days. 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Educator run an agency. But you also have this practice 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,300 where you're coaching mentoring and you wrote a book. 41 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:07,900 So, where do you want to start without her? 42 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:09,699 Help us. Thread the needle a little bit. 43 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,200 I guess, I guess, I guess I get bored really easily. 44 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,400 So I think there's a there's a Common Thread and I'll listen 45 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,500 it's simply that I had very poor. 46 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,000 High School experience going to a high school is very focused on 47 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:31,200 the science is in the mads artistic and Really did not know 48 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,400 what I was going to be doing as a career and felt kind of out of 49 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,100 place until I had a very enlightened guidance counselor 50 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,000 who said you should go into graphic design as the great, 51 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:46,200 what's that? So, we brought out a book and 52 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,500 showed me the Stop and it was literally that nail. 53 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:51,100 That light bulb moment. Wow, you can make a living doing 54 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:54,600 this because I guess. So he helped me by citing the up 55 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,800 to a college through your program. 56 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:02,100 And, you know, I went from like, Literally just coasting through 57 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:06,100 high school to an A+ President's List student. 58 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:13,600 So it was a massive metaphor change in my life and I've never 59 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,100 forgotten that. And so the profession has become 60 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:20,400 very dear to me. And so that has led me through 61 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,300 all the different stages working for different agencies and 62 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:29,400 starting my own and then teaching, as well as mentoring. 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,800 And writing about it because I appreciate what I do so much. 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,200 And mostly after close to 30 years in the industry, I can say 65 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,000 that. I get up every morning excited 66 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,800 to be doing what I do. And I just want that for other 67 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,600 people. Yeah, that's amazing. 68 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,500 And we'll talk about your book in a little bit and how your 69 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:53,000 encapsulating some of this wisdom and making it accessible 70 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,400 to more people. And you're also doing like these 71 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,600 one-on-one coaching mentoring sessions with folks. 72 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:02,300 You mentioned your High School teacher who helped steer you 73 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:05,300 towards graphic design where there are other mentors along 74 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:08,900 the way that you wanted to shout out or mention that helped you 75 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:12,500 get to where you are now. Well, I think it what I've 76 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:15,300 experienced over the years is that I've experienced a very 77 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:18,899 nurturing and supportive industry. 78 00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:25,600 One of my design Heroes. At the time was a Canadian 79 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:34,300 designer Neville Smith Okay, is pieces of black cap Cafe poster 80 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:36,600 that he did. He was a big influence on me. 81 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,100 I was able to meet him at an event and chat, and he was very 82 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:43,300 open. And since then I've had such a 83 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:48,900 great opportunity as I go along to reach out, Duffy designers, 84 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:53,200 another agency has a big influence on me when I was at 85 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,900 college and I've since been able to meet with Joseph and team 86 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:59,600 there and travel down the Carson. 87 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,100 Meister etc, etc. And here in Canada, with DD, 88 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:07,500 Katana at concrete agencies like that. 89 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:10,200 I'm just chainless Lee name-dropping here, but, but 90 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,900 it's only because of that, I've got, these are people that I've 91 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:15,500 generally had great conversations with multiple 92 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,100 conversations with. And they've been very genuinely 93 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:21,100 what their time, and, and supportive. 94 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,600 And I think that's, that's truly wonderful. 95 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:27,600 I think, maybe it's helpful for us to also, Define, or explore 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,000 some of these different nuances of a word, like, Like a mentor 97 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:32,900 and you also do a coaching's that's worth kind of. 98 00:05:32,908 --> 00:05:35,000 Disambiguating some of these things. 99 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,700 We've been exploring this a lot in this show and other aiga 100 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:41,100 programming and for some you know Mentor could just be an 101 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:42,900 influence or inspiration somebody. 102 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:46,600 You haven't even matter talk to you in person, but it could also 103 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,500 be someone where you're meeting with one-on-one. 104 00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:51,000 It could be an informal thing of formal thing. 105 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,900 So how do you think about and Define a word like Mentor? 106 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,000 Yeah, that's a, that's a really great question. 107 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,800 In fact, I'm going to be posting about that wear it. 108 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,200 Go teacher. Sorry, teacher Mentor coach, you 109 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,000 know, what's their friends? And what do you need and all for 110 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,900 a while there? I was calling myself a coach. 111 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:13,600 But I did feel that, that really defined. 112 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,700 What I do is I really do weave in some of my teaching. 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,700 So for example, I with my one-on-ones, when I'm entering 114 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,200 musings from entering right now, there's always homework. 115 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,400 You know, I always give them homework that I can review that 116 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,800 we can go over. I get them doing heavy lifting 117 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,100 in their career so that there's ownership with that, but also 118 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:39,800 it's a guided process, so whether it's Career Development 119 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:43,500 or it's developing their freelancer agency, all these 120 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:46,700 different paths, I've got work books and things like that. 121 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:50,600 So I don't think that fits in the, in the coaching category 122 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,100 necessarily or the, or the mentoring kind of a hybrid. 123 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:59,600 So it's definitely not active listening. 124 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,700 Yeah, which I find often times, you get them, you know, all the 125 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:06,200 content like this logo. Okay. 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,700 Well as helping anybody right? Yeah. 127 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:14,900 So I try to unpack as much as possible and that that's Pete's 128 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:16,600 Pizza. What I want to a bed and 129 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:19,000 eventually some some good coaching as well. 130 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:25,200 But it's a very fair and kudos to you for addressing with these 131 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,700 are kids people, people don't understand like where, what am I 132 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:30,700 going to get out of this. Coughing. 133 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:32,800 So that's what I would suggest anybody out there. 134 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,200 Looking at it is. It's just if you find somebody 135 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:40,200 who has a voice that you you connect with that reach out to 136 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,300 them and to say, you know, I'd be interested in what on ones 137 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:45,700 with you were group coaching. But what is it? 138 00:07:45,700 --> 00:07:48,800 That I will get out of this. You know, how does it go? 139 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:53,300 Yeah, it sounds like it's a definition to be negotiated 140 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:55,700 between that people in a relationship, right? 141 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:58,800 Like we can't just like claim a dictionary definition or there's 142 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,100 multiple dictionary. The definitions is between you 143 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:03,300 and your Mentor. You and your coach. 144 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:06,300 And it could involve other dynamics that are like a 145 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:10,700 teacher-student relationship or something else right up. 146 00:08:10,708 --> 00:08:13,700 But it could be anything from just having a friend who's a 147 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:16,900 sounding board who just listens to you and poses questions to 148 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:20,700 something that's more structured with the curriculum with a point 149 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:24,400 of view and advice. Even exactly and I think that's 150 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,300 really important. So really at the end of the day, 151 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:28,800 you've got to understand yourself, what what it is you're 152 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,200 looking for. Some sort of a definition of 153 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,700 know, at the end of this, I want to have, you know, less imposter 154 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:37,799 syndrome. I want to have, you know, a 155 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,900 functional freelance business. I want to have your feet sorts 156 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:44,200 of things and that will help not the up to have all the answers 157 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,800 but some sort of an idea of what you're looking for and then you 158 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,800 work with that person to see if that is, is a fit for them in 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,400 their skill set and in their delivery, going to a car 160 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,500 dealership and saying, yeah, like a car. 161 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:02,700 Okay, what's your budget what? You know. 162 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,100 So right now you have to inform yourself going into the 163 00:09:06,108 --> 00:09:09,100 relationship as well. It's not like a I mean I kind of 164 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:12,700 cringe at this memory before but like I've definitely in my like 165 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:15,300 earlier in my career going to copies with people and be like 166 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,200 won't you be my mentor and it's like I didn't really know what I 167 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,100 wanted or what I needed. It was more like oh well I I 168 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:26,100 heard that I should have won. So exactly when I first started 169 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,300 thinking about because again with the teaching Students, 170 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:34,000 reach out they can, you, can we continue helping? 171 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,400 You might write my career. And so I was trying to 172 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,300 understand, okay, well, where does this fit? 173 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:41,700 Because it's a big, and if there's so many coaches at them, 174 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:44,300 so, many mental set out there, there's so many venues and I 175 00:09:44,308 --> 00:09:47,700 thought, well, you know, why would I be part of the noise? 176 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:50,700 But really, at the end of the day, it's about connection, 177 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,300 right? So you really do, and I've had 178 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:56,700 two recent well, one woman from California, the reached out and 179 00:09:56,700 --> 00:10:00,900 I coached her and for her came down Into voice. 180 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:04,700 She had researched and she said your tone the way you approach 181 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:10,200 things funky and I'm sure. There's there's lots of people 182 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,900 who went to my website looking for that and the tone didn't 183 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:18,200 work and they did not engage. So, what are some of the goals 184 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,500 that your mentees have articulated for themselves? 185 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:25,100 Like, what sorts of goals are you helping people reach in your 186 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:28,100 work together? I think the biggest thing is 187 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:33,100 focused and they don't come to me identifying that as an issue 188 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,600 you know I need more Focus or I need they come to me at the end 189 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,400 of the day we're creative people and we love challenges and love 190 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,600 exploring and problem solving and things like that. 191 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:48,000 And we're really good at it for clients. 192 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,500 But when I people come in for coaching in that were like, 193 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:52,200 okay, here's all the stuff that I'm doing. 194 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:56,100 Whoa, okay, yeah. What is it that you know, we 195 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:58,500 This need to be everything to everybody, right? 196 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:01,600 So a lot of times what it's doing, whether it's their career 197 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,400 path or they're building a freelance business or whatever. 198 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,300 It's like oh who do you want to speak to? 199 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:10,400 Who would you? How would you define your 200 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,800 audience? What do you bring to the table? 201 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:17,700 You know, and it's both for selling yourself to clients. 202 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,400 Are also selling yourself to employers potential employers so 203 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,000 again a lot of this comes back to self-awareness. 204 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,300 And we need to take ourselves through that process and we take 205 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:33,100 our clients to. We're always doing that with our 206 00:11:33,108 --> 00:11:35,100 clients and go get what you needed to find your articles 207 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,000 better. What's our avatars who is our 208 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,500 target audience. If we know these questions, we 209 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:43,900 don't do them for ourselves and it's going to have an end. 210 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:47,300 Just like with our clients you're too close to the problem 211 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:50,500 that you're making assumptions. And and so you just need that 212 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,300 sounding board in a lot of cases to help you. 213 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:55,700 This really get that. What I like to say is you don't 214 00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:58,500 want to be I'll be you want to be espresso, you want to be 215 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,300 small and strong. Awesome. 216 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,600 So tell us about this, but don't look for zebras. 217 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,700 It's based on an expression. But what does that expression 218 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:09,200 mean? And how does it all fit? 219 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,600 Oh yeah. So the expression is and I came 220 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,600 across and it's a doctor that came up with this and it's 221 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,200 taught to interns mainly for, Er, When You're triaging 222 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,800 patients, when they come in and the idea is, when you hear his 223 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,900 actual quote is, when you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebra, 224 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:30,900 think horse. And obviously that's in North 225 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:34,500 America. But the idea is the likelihood 226 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:37,100 of you seeing a zebra vs. Horse. 227 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,800 You know, is something you've got to point so when somebody 228 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,000 present to me are what this course stomach. 229 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,400 Well don't think of some strange disease. 230 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,100 They may have just had bad sushi, right? 231 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:52,400 So in our world right now, we're an Antarctic of the creative 232 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,500 industry, people who make their living, creating the clients 233 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,600 we're dealing with deadlines. We're dealing with And 234 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,600 particularly right now, we're living in a dorm demand Society. 235 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,500 So it's like, sort of deadlines are shorter and the creative 236 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:13,900 process is not shorter. So the other thing is because we 237 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,200 are artistically inclined that we tend to look for. 238 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:21,200 We want, we want that. That original idea that 100% new 239 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,100 saying like really want to kill it, right? 240 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:28,700 And that takes too much time. It's a bunch of business there 241 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:34,700 and frankly, New is makes people uncomfortable, okay. 242 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:36,200 There. They need definition of need 243 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,200 context. So again when you hear the 244 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,000 hoofbeats think horses, like, okay, that makes more sense 245 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,100 straight line. So when we're creating for 246 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:49,300 clients and that it's try not to look for the Obscure or the 247 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:52,700 truly unique, you got to look for something. 248 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:58,900 That is palpable, something that is that the your audience will 249 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:04,300 align with. And that's by no means dumbing 250 00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:07,600 it down at all because we all love clever creative. 251 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:11,000 But if you take apart, clever creative, there's an Essence 252 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,400 there that wasn't there before, you know, it's like it's a new 253 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,600 voice. It's a new tact and particularly 254 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,000 right now. And we're looking at an audience 255 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,300 that is somewhat segmented, and we have Niche markets, and each 256 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:28,300 audiences, that that they will attach themselves to something, 257 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:32,600 that makes sense to them because story when the Right. 258 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,100 I think there's almost something about the flip side of social 259 00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:38,500 media, these days that decontextualize has a lot of 260 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,600 work or a lot of portfolios you also profile. 261 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:46,300 Someone you call Amanda in the book is a designer you mentored 262 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,600 who was dealing with some of the stuff. 263 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,600 Also on the topic of Health Care are designing for Hospital 264 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,700 versus and feeling bad about some of these award-winning 265 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:57,700 designs that she was seeing out in the world and trying to 266 00:14:57,708 --> 00:14:59,700 compare herself. Can you tell us more about 267 00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,700 Amanda's predict. I meant and how she got out of 268 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,800 it. Yes, over predicament. 269 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,700 I met her at a design conference where there were some 270 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:11,600 world-class designer stair and we love, we love a GSM great 271 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,400 conferences. We have some great ones here, 272 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,200 design thinkers in Canada and I just love going in because 273 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:23,000 inspirational now when I met her she was enjoying it. 274 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,800 But there was a bit of melancholy associated with it. 275 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,300 So I was trying to dig into it and she said well, I just feel 276 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:35,600 like, why am I here? My work isn't as good as this 277 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,900 stuff, my work isn't as good as you know. 278 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,800 And, and so when I dug deeper, you know, she's a, she was an 279 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,700 in-house designer for hospital. And I looked at her work, and 280 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:49,300 it's excellent and and you've got to realize that there's a 281 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:52,100 purpose for her work, and that is wayfinding. 282 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:55,500 That is communication in its simplest form. 283 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,000 You know, somebody is most likely reading. 284 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,500 These sites are in one of the worst times of their lives. 285 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,100 Gives, you know whether it's for a loved one of themselves. 286 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,300 So the last thing you want to do is over design lesson, what like 287 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,800 it information is on and I reminded her of that and then 288 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,300 fact her work was quite quite good. 289 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,800 Great typography. Great color uses on brand. 290 00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:19,900 So the last thing she should be doing is first of all beating 291 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:22,900 yourself up. Secondly, comparing yourself to 292 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:26,100 something greater designers. When the one she's compare 293 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:31,200 yourself with are they have clients like, Your major 294 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:37,800 breweries and Spirits companies, entertainment networks movies, 295 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,500 and things like that which is a completely different pot and 296 00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:45,500 approach. So when I reminded her that come 297 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:49,000 to this as a sponge and just absorb like, wow, that's a great 298 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,700 typography treatment while of their color here and be inspired 299 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:57,500 instead of diminished. And so it was it was a great 300 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,800 lesson that is if you want to compare them look at other 301 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,599 hospitals and how they're doing. Yeah, that's a great reminder of 302 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,900 just like apples and oranges, right? 303 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:11,300 And thinking about what your references are, even if you're 304 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,800 looking for inspiration and other places, you have also the 305 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,599 story about your brother-in-law who was kind of a low-key former 306 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,099 Olympian and how he talked about how he doesn't look at other 307 00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:28,500 competitors while he was The race or doing the sport. 308 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:30,600 So I think that's a similar Point. 309 00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:33,600 Absolutely. And that was a again, really 310 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,100 quiet guy. And he was a few years after my 311 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:38,400 sister started, dating him that I found out, he had been into 312 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,900 Olympics and so I thought, okay, well, here's somebody who 313 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,300 competes of an elite level, here's somebody who competes 314 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,700 internationally. So I want to tap into that. 315 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:51,900 I want to understand what is the mindset we go through when 316 00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:56,000 you're at the Olympics in your in your event and you're At the 317 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 other competitors who are leaders in their countries as 318 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,900 well. Like, what's the mindset for 319 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,600 that? And I was trying to dig that out 320 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,500 and just for flippantly said, well I don't think about them. 321 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,600 What do you mean? He said, the only thing I have 322 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,500 control over in that race, my Pace, my breathing and my 323 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:18,900 mindset and my goal in that event is to better my last time. 324 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,800 I want to do a personal best of only thing I can do. 325 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,300 Sometimes that's a gold medal sometimes that's 25th. 326 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:31,000 You never know, but if I'm constantly improving that is a, 327 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:36,000 we've been jumping straight into the pool if you will of examples 328 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,400 from the book but just a zoom out a little bit. 329 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:43,200 Don't look for zebras is like a business book, creative advice, 330 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,900 and wisdom book. It reads really conversationally 331 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:49,900 and it's got some great illustrations as well with all 332 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,400 of these different, very short digestible. 333 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,600 Chapters, can you tell us about the illustrator that you worked? 334 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,600 With as well. Yeah, food show is just an 335 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,500 incredible Talent. She's I'm lucky enough to have 336 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:09,200 her in my, in my world. She's a former student and a 337 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:15,000 fellow colleague teacher, as well as now a collaborator and 338 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,500 identify their for this book. I originally had black and white 339 00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:22,200 photos and which is fine, but I thought, you know what, with the 340 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,600 tone, the way I wrote it, it needed to have a little bit. 341 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:28,900 More of an edge to it, a little more playfulness. 342 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:32,700 And she, I've always been a fan of her work. 343 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:35,200 And when I saw some of her recent illustrators 344 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,700 demonstrations, I immediately contacted said, look, I've got 345 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:40,900 this book. I'd love you to work with me on 346 00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:44,300 it and it's been a great collaboration because some of 347 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:48,400 the stuff she's come up with, you know, I didn't, you know, 348 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,000 like the illustration she did for the Olympic my 349 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 brother-in-law. It's a gentleman running. 350 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,900 These going to blindfold on and he's going across the Finish 351 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,000 Line. I would have never thought of 352 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,800 that. But it's brilliant how it fits 353 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,900 into that. So she's added such a wonderful 354 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:08,500 voice to those, just black and white illustrations, but they 355 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,700 just need to be color because they're so rich in content. 356 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:17,400 Can you tell us more about the choice of the format? 357 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,900 But in terms of the writing style and you mentioned a little 358 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,100 bit about the choice of the illustrations already, but it's 359 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:26,100 not a sort of Self-serious buzzword Laden, business, 360 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,900 fucking chose to go a different direction which I thought was 361 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,200 great and really refreshing, but like, who is this for? 362 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,300 And what? So this is, I mean, you always 363 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:39,100 the, the adage is you always write write a book for yourself 364 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:41,600 right now, what, you know, and write for yourself and 365 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:42,900 particularly. Now, again, we talked about 366 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,000 Niche markets and that is that I really didn't want to write a 367 00:20:46,008 --> 00:20:47,800 book as I thought, well, what do I have to say? 368 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,700 What do I have to impart and having taught and an 369 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,100 understanding that while there's a A lot of books out there, none 370 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:57,500 of them have my voice and there's going to be people out 371 00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,100 there that will that will resonate with them. 372 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:03,700 I read a great deal of the huge library and there's a good 373 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:08,500 percentage of books here that I haven't finished and it's simply 374 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:13,200 because the tone it was too dense, it just didn't work 375 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,800 again. The high school experience 376 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,700 again, right? So what I did was this book is 377 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,000 written conversationally. The table of contents is divided 378 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,500 into chapters It's more like going to the pharmacy and you're 379 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,300 like, you know, you're not searching for ibuprofen. 380 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:29,800 You're like, I've got a headache, I need something to 381 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,800 get back. Get rid of that, right? 382 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,100 So when you go to the table of content, it's like impostor 383 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:34,900 syndrome. Like. 384 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:38,400 Okay, yeah, I'm struggling that right now presentation. 385 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,300 You know, like you got a presentation coming up. 386 00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:42,300 Here's a fun way to prepare for that. 387 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,400 That'll make it easier on. So it's very prescriptive. 388 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,800 So you don't have to go through the book linear. 389 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,000 You can open it up and just go, oh, yeah, this is something I'm 390 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,800 dealing with right now, jump to that chapter. 391 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,500 And and read it and they they all be able to thread throughout 392 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:06,300 its all mindset and inspiration and building confidence to 393 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:07,800 deliver what you need to deliver. 394 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,900 Yeah, if I were to blur bet, I'd call it like nuggets of wisdom 395 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:14,900 On Demand, right? Yeah, because there's these 396 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,600 really accessible anecdotes and chapters and making sense of 397 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,900 things. And it's fun with the 398 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:21,900 illustrations and the writing style as well. 399 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200 Yeah yeah. And that that was again that was 400 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,000 the intent is just to make it very accessible, you know? 401 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,700 And an easy reason to pick it up, you know I've got a lot. 402 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:34,500 Like I said I got a lot of books here that we're just like I 403 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:41,600 watched log to get through And the tagline some copy for the 404 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,100 book of his essays observations and grants to ignite your 405 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:51,800 creative brain and you having read the Reza a good 406 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,900 description. You like that and I like how 407 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,900 it's just not so self serious and it's like you acknowledge 408 00:22:57,900 --> 00:22:58,800 that. Some of them are rants. 409 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,200 Others are like great stories of wisdom and it's like, you can 410 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,500 take what's useful from it without it being like too much 411 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:10,400 of a guru with all the answers. Or and yeah, this isn't a dow 412 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,700 shalt, Thou shalt not at all. This is like to know what I get 413 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:14,700 it. I've been there, here's some 414 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,900 funny stories, there's my insights at all these years of 415 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,800 doing this and you know, laugh, you'll cry. 416 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,300 You'll take some notes. This is your second book now and 417 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:29,700 as an author as a content creator like a book is still a 418 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,900 big undertaking. I think it's helpful. 419 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,200 If you folks want to know like at what point did you know you 420 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,300 were ready like okay? This is going to be a book and 421 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:39,400 I'm going to start this Marathon. 422 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:45,200 Yeah, you kind of go at I think, you know, it's kind of like 423 00:23:45,208 --> 00:23:49,100 starting a business in a sense like I started to businesses and 424 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,200 start the second one, I think forgetting What it Took. 425 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:56,200 To start the first one you kind of collective memories and it's 426 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,200 not like I can do this again and then you dumped into it and 427 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,500 you're like, oh, right, this is a lot of work, but I think with 428 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,500 this book here, like, my first book is about social media that 429 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:11,000 has nothing to do with designer. And it's about how social media 430 00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:15,400 is an eroding, our self-esteem. And it's funny. 431 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,500 When I started telling people, I'm writing a book. 432 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,300 Remember my parents saying, oh, it's about design. 433 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,300 What about design? Like, it's nothing to do with 434 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,500 this. I think there's enough design 435 00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:25,400 books out there. I don't know what voice I have 436 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,800 and, and, you know, I know a lot of people are struggling with 437 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,300 self identity and the problem with social media. 438 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,700 So I published in wrote that book and I went very well. 439 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:36,700 Then I started thinking well, you know what mindset is a big 440 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:40,100 problem and when I do these things presentations and, you 441 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:43,000 know, like that, that's the feedback that I get a lot of 442 00:24:43,008 --> 00:24:46,700 times is people dealing with imposter syndrome and confidence 443 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:50,600 and and all that, like, you know what I was, you know, that the 444 00:24:50,608 --> 00:24:56,200 Wallflower that And that was very committed and I overcame 445 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,700 that through little tricks and and an awareness. 446 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:04,500 And so now that's going to be my design book, so, portfolio in 447 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,500 there. It's not about my career, it's 448 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:10,000 observations things we can talk about. 449 00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:16,100 So I my process is I write on paper pen and paper because I'm 450 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:19,500 quicker than typing, I know, it's weird but it's true and 451 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,000 what I find is so I'm inspired I was writing away. 452 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,100 What I'm not particular inspired by then take the book and I 453 00:25:26,108 --> 00:25:30,200 transcribe I type it into work and about halfway through, 454 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,800 transcribing them back into the mode again and sometimes I'll 455 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,700 dictate into my phone. I'll have a conversation with 456 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,300 myself, you know, I did weird looks but you know what? 457 00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,300 I'm okay with that. And that's how it comes 458 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:42,600 together. And that's why it's very 459 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,000 conversational in its tone talking to us about, what's your 460 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000 process and some of this wisdom that you've gained over the 461 00:25:49,008 --> 00:25:52,200 years as well as how you've defined and refined this. 462 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:54,800 Meaning of mentorship to wrap up. 463 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,800 Let's talk about the future since the show is about the 464 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,900 future as well, like what is it in the future for you? 465 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,100 You are launching the book and promoting the book. 466 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,500 But how do you see this in the context of the changing industry 467 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:11,000 as well as it's going out in the world from my perspective, our 468 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,300 industry is changing quite a bit, obviously what social media 469 00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:16,400 and things like that, but I think more importantly it's a 470 00:26:16,408 --> 00:26:22,500 fundamental change and that is going from really an All 471 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:26,500 industry to a more strategic industry, we're seeing more and 472 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:31,400 more people learning Online skills on their own through 473 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,300 YouTube and videos and hacking through. 474 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:38,200 So, there's less about. So, when we were talking with 475 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,100 clients in that, it's what we got people in the house. 476 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,800 We've got people in that. So really where the hole is or 477 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,300 opportunity for us is in the Strategic side, you know, it's 478 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:50,000 very much, you know, social media. 479 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,800 So easy, right now. It's one of those just because 480 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,600 you can, But you should write. And and so having a plan that's 481 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,700 one of the things I talk about is pencils before pixels and the 482 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,400 idea that you know your intelligence anything 483 00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:08,600 artificial. So using technology to make our 484 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,400 work more efficient, but at the front end were more strategic 485 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,400 and businesses are recognizing that Fast Company Inc magazine, 486 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:21,800 they're all dedicating editorial content to design creativity. 487 00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:27,400 That's because it is a strategic business element and that's what 488 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,000 we are perfectly, you know, perfectly aligned and we all 489 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,600 here. Now, in business circles are all 490 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,300 talking design thinking, right? Yeah, and we are the best 491 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:39,800 position for that. So that's where you know where I 492 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,500 see myself going and mentoring people and and writing about it 493 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:48,700 to empower our industry to really fill that role. 494 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:51,100 Yeah, so many great points there. 495 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:55,500 Especially around All of this anxiety we have about automation 496 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,900 or offshoring, Outsourcing and S, you're not going to compete 497 00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:00,400 on price. You're not going to compete with 498 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,600 a robot or an AI. So you have to really lean into 499 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,300 what makes you a human, a creative human, a strategic 500 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,100 human, not a, I can't do or that can't be easily shipped overseas 501 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:12,900 somewhere. Exactly. 502 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,000 You know what, you know, a lot of an algorithm, those are all 503 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,100 tools and that's another quote from the book forgetting. 504 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:21,500 The computer is a tool, makes you the tool. 505 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:25,900 A little, you know, that, but it's but it's true, you know, 506 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:28,400 like pencil per pixel. Get your ideas out then. 507 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,600 Go to the computer. Bring in your human approach and 508 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,700 an opinion and problem solving and then allow the computer to 509 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:40,400 build in the efficiency. Yeah. 510 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:44,700 Catherine on LinkedIn, has anticipated by next question, 511 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:46,700 which is where can we get the book? 512 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,700 It's on pre-order now, right? Yeah. 513 00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:51,000 So thank you. Kevin. 514 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,700 So it's in pre-order right now to the shipping at the end of 515 00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:57,800 January. But if you pre-order, now, you 516 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,700 will get a signed copy of the book, as well as a Letterpress 517 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:07,600 postcard, quote from the book, which is designing in a vacuum 518 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,200 is for Dyson, which is about collaboration and you can 519 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,400 pre-order the book, my website. Think, gosh smith.com. 520 00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:22,000 And there, you'll find the book. You'll also find my coaching 521 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:28,400 one-on-one coaching, and again Vlogs, and and free information. 522 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,800 Well, thank you for sharing a preview of your book. 523 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,000 Telling us about your story, where you see the industry 524 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,100 heading. Do you have any final? 525 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,100 Thoughts of maybe midweek, Wednesday wisdom to impart as a 526 00:29:42,108 --> 00:29:46,600 final thought before we log off, Wednesday, wisdom a wisdom. 527 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,700 Well, again, you know what? Your brain is beautiful, it 528 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,900 really is and we've been told for so many years and I don't 529 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:59,200 mean to be Pollyanna, you know. But you know, the traditional 530 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,200 school system that has been putting people down about the 531 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,900 way we think and it's not linear and you know what things have 532 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:13,100 changed and bring you have his beautiful and people need it. 533 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,700 Make sure they can find you, make sure they see what you've 534 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:21,000 got. Got and, you know, you know, 535 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:26,100 there and don't listen to The Other Voices out there. 536 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,300 Wonderful Roberts, thank you for coming on the show, again. 537 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,600 He's the author of don't look for zebras. 538 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,500 You can get it. And I think, Dash smith.com. 539 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:40,700 This is the last livestream version of the show for the 540 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:42,700 year. So, we'll see you in January. 541 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,000 In the meantime, I'm gonna pop some champagne. 542 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,000 You only version of this on the podcast feed next week as well 543 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,500 or just watch the replay. So, thanks again, have a great 544 00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:56,000 one.