Hello and welcome to a live edition of design future.
Now a podcast from aiga, the professional association for
design. On this show, we have
conversations with designers and other creative professionals to
learn about how they've designed their lives and how they're
thinking about and crafting the future.
My name is Li Xiang zhuang broadcasting from Cambridge
Massachusetts. I am the director of design
learning and content here at aii.
GA and for the folks tuning in live, we always like to know
where are you tuning in from today?
You can let us know in the comments.
Say hello, connect with your fellow participants and just a
quick reminder about our code of conduct this event and other
aiga of fans are governed by the code of conduct.
Basically, keep it. Nice friendly, professional and
will be a okay. So, without further Ado, Our
Guest today is joining us from Ottawa Canada or friends in the
north. He is a creative director.
Her agency owner author, creativity professor, and a
founding member of our GD. The association of registered
graphic designers sort of like our Canadian counterparts to
aiga here in the US and he's a chief creative officer of an
agency called green melon. And we'll be talking today.
Also about his Design Story, where he's been in his career
and his coaching and mentoring practice at think Smith, and as
well as his upcoming book, his second book, Sir Robert Smith.
Thank you for joining us. Today, thank you so much.
And good morning. Good afternoon.
Good evening to everybody in their time zones.
Thank you so much for having me on.
This is a great honor for sure. Awesome.
Yeah. And just to acknowledge the
audience, it looks like we've got Toronto, representing some
New York's of Atlanta. It's good to hear from people
from different parts of the world.
So Robert, tell us a little bit more about your story.
You wear many hats like a lot of us these days.
Educator run an agency. But you also have this practice
where you're coaching mentoring and you wrote a book.
So, where do you want to start without her?
Help us. Thread the needle a little bit.
I guess, I guess, I guess I get bored really easily.
So I think there's a there's a Common Thread and I'll listen
it's simply that I had very poor.
High School experience going to a high school is very focused on
the science is in the mads artistic and Really did not know
what I was going to be doing as a career and felt kind of out of
place until I had a very enlightened guidance counselor
who said you should go into graphic design as the great,
what's that? So, we brought out a book and
showed me the Stop and it was literally that nail.
That light bulb moment. Wow, you can make a living doing
this because I guess. So he helped me by citing the up
to a college through your program.
And, you know, I went from like, Literally just coasting through
high school to an A+ President's List student.
So it was a massive metaphor change in my life and I've never
forgotten that. And so the profession has become
very dear to me. And so that has led me through
all the different stages working for different agencies and
starting my own and then teaching, as well as mentoring.
And writing about it because I appreciate what I do so much.
And mostly after close to 30 years in the industry, I can say
that. I get up every morning excited
to be doing what I do. And I just want that for other
people. Yeah, that's amazing.
And we'll talk about your book in a little bit and how your
encapsulating some of this wisdom and making it accessible
to more people. And you're also doing like these
one-on-one coaching mentoring sessions with folks.
You mentioned your High School teacher who helped steer you
towards graphic design where there are other mentors along
the way that you wanted to shout out or mention that helped you
get to where you are now. Well, I think it what I've
experienced over the years is that I've experienced a very
nurturing and supportive industry.
One of my design Heroes. At the time was a Canadian
designer Neville Smith Okay, is pieces of black cap Cafe poster
that he did. He was a big influence on me.
I was able to meet him at an event and chat, and he was very
open. And since then I've had such a
great opportunity as I go along to reach out, Duffy designers,
another agency has a big influence on me when I was at
college and I've since been able to meet with Joseph and team
there and travel down the Carson.
Meister etc, etc. And here in Canada, with DD,
Katana at concrete agencies like that.
I'm just chainless Lee name-dropping here, but, but
it's only because of that, I've got, these are people that I've
generally had great conversations with multiple
conversations with. And they've been very genuinely
what their time, and, and supportive.
And I think that's, that's truly wonderful.
I think, maybe it's helpful for us to also, Define, or explore
some of these different nuances of a word, like, Like a mentor
and you also do a coaching's that's worth kind of.
Disambiguating some of these things.
We've been exploring this a lot in this show and other aiga
programming and for some you know Mentor could just be an
influence or inspiration somebody.
You haven't even matter talk to you in person, but it could also
be someone where you're meeting with one-on-one.
It could be an informal thing of formal thing.
So how do you think about and Define a word like Mentor?
Yeah, that's a, that's a really great question.
In fact, I'm going to be posting about that wear it.
Go teacher. Sorry, teacher Mentor coach, you
know, what's their friends? And what do you need and all for
a while there? I was calling myself a coach.
But I did feel that, that really defined.
What I do is I really do weave in some of my teaching.
So for example, I with my one-on-ones, when I'm entering
musings from entering right now, there's always homework.
You know, I always give them homework that I can review that
we can go over. I get them doing heavy lifting
in their career so that there's ownership with that, but also
it's a guided process, so whether it's Career Development
or it's developing their freelancer agency, all these
different paths, I've got work books and things like that.
So I don't think that fits in the, in the coaching category
necessarily or the, or the mentoring kind of a hybrid.
So it's definitely not active listening.
Yeah, which I find often times, you get them, you know, all the
content like this logo. Okay.
Well as helping anybody right? Yeah.
So I try to unpack as much as possible and that that's Pete's
Pizza. What I want to a bed and
eventually some some good coaching as well.
But it's a very fair and kudos to you for addressing with these
are kids people, people don't understand like where, what am I
going to get out of this. Coughing.
So that's what I would suggest anybody out there.
Looking at it is. It's just if you find somebody
who has a voice that you you connect with that reach out to
them and to say, you know, I'd be interested in what on ones
with you were group coaching. But what is it?
That I will get out of this. You know, how does it go?
Yeah, it sounds like it's a definition to be negotiated
between that people in a relationship, right?
Like we can't just like claim a dictionary definition or there's
multiple dictionary. The definitions is between you
and your Mentor. You and your coach.
And it could involve other dynamics that are like a
teacher-student relationship or something else right up.
But it could be anything from just having a friend who's a
sounding board who just listens to you and poses questions to
something that's more structured with the curriculum with a point
of view and advice. Even exactly and I think that's
really important. So really at the end of the day,
you've got to understand yourself, what what it is you're
looking for. Some sort of a definition of
know, at the end of this, I want to have, you know, less imposter
syndrome. I want to have, you know, a
functional freelance business. I want to have your feet sorts
of things and that will help not the up to have all the answers
but some sort of an idea of what you're looking for and then you
work with that person to see if that is, is a fit for them in
their skill set and in their delivery, going to a car
dealership and saying, yeah, like a car.
Okay, what's your budget what? You know.
So right now you have to inform yourself going into the
relationship as well. It's not like a I mean I kind of
cringe at this memory before but like I've definitely in my like
earlier in my career going to copies with people and be like
won't you be my mentor and it's like I didn't really know what I
wanted or what I needed. It was more like oh well I I
heard that I should have won. So exactly when I first started
thinking about because again with the teaching Students,
reach out they can, you, can we continue helping?
You might write my career. And so I was trying to
understand, okay, well, where does this fit?
Because it's a big, and if there's so many coaches at them,
so, many mental set out there, there's so many venues and I
thought, well, you know, why would I be part of the noise?
But really, at the end of the day, it's about connection,
right? So you really do, and I've had
two recent well, one woman from California, the reached out and
I coached her and for her came down Into voice.
She had researched and she said your tone the way you approach
things funky and I'm sure. There's there's lots of people
who went to my website looking for that and the tone didn't
work and they did not engage. So, what are some of the goals
that your mentees have articulated for themselves?
Like, what sorts of goals are you helping people reach in your
work together? I think the biggest thing is
focused and they don't come to me identifying that as an issue
you know I need more Focus or I need they come to me at the end
of the day we're creative people and we love challenges and love
exploring and problem solving and things like that.
And we're really good at it for clients.
But when I people come in for coaching in that were like,
okay, here's all the stuff that I'm doing.
Whoa, okay, yeah. What is it that you know, we
This need to be everything to everybody, right?
So a lot of times what it's doing, whether it's their career
path or they're building a freelance business or whatever.
It's like oh who do you want to speak to?
Who would you? How would you define your
audience? What do you bring to the table?
You know, and it's both for selling yourself to clients.
Are also selling yourself to employers potential employers so
again a lot of this comes back to self-awareness.
And we need to take ourselves through that process and we take
our clients to. We're always doing that with our
clients and go get what you needed to find your articles
better. What's our avatars who is our
target audience. If we know these questions, we
don't do them for ourselves and it's going to have an end.
Just like with our clients you're too close to the problem
that you're making assumptions. And and so you just need that
sounding board in a lot of cases to help you.
This really get that. What I like to say is you don't
want to be I'll be you want to be espresso, you want to be
small and strong. Awesome.
So tell us about this, but don't look for zebras.
It's based on an expression. But what does that expression
mean? And how does it all fit?
Oh yeah. So the expression is and I came
across and it's a doctor that came up with this and it's
taught to interns mainly for, Er, When You're triaging
patients, when they come in and the idea is, when you hear his
actual quote is, when you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebra,
think horse. And obviously that's in North
America. But the idea is the likelihood
of you seeing a zebra vs. Horse.
You know, is something you've got to point so when somebody
present to me are what this course stomach.
Well don't think of some strange disease.
They may have just had bad sushi, right?
So in our world right now, we're an Antarctic of the creative
industry, people who make their living, creating the clients
we're dealing with deadlines. We're dealing with And
particularly right now, we're living in a dorm demand Society.
So it's like, sort of deadlines are shorter and the creative
process is not shorter. So the other thing is because we
are artistically inclined that we tend to look for.
We want, we want that. That original idea that 100% new
saying like really want to kill it, right?
And that takes too much time. It's a bunch of business there
and frankly, New is makes people uncomfortable, okay.
There. They need definition of need
context. So again when you hear the
hoofbeats think horses, like, okay, that makes more sense
straight line. So when we're creating for
clients and that it's try not to look for the Obscure or the
truly unique, you got to look for something.
That is palpable, something that is that the your audience will
align with. And that's by no means dumbing
it down at all because we all love clever creative.
But if you take apart, clever creative, there's an Essence
there that wasn't there before, you know, it's like it's a new
voice. It's a new tact and particularly
right now. And we're looking at an audience
that is somewhat segmented, and we have Niche markets, and each
audiences, that that they will attach themselves to something,
that makes sense to them because story when the Right.
I think there's almost something about the flip side of social
media, these days that decontextualize has a lot of
work or a lot of portfolios you also profile.
Someone you call Amanda in the book is a designer you mentored
who was dealing with some of the stuff.
Also on the topic of Health Care are designing for Hospital
versus and feeling bad about some of these award-winning
designs that she was seeing out in the world and trying to
compare herself. Can you tell us more about
Amanda's predict. I meant and how she got out of
it. Yes, over predicament.
I met her at a design conference where there were some
world-class designer stair and we love, we love a GSM great
conferences. We have some great ones here,
design thinkers in Canada and I just love going in because
inspirational now when I met her she was enjoying it.
But there was a bit of melancholy associated with it.
So I was trying to dig into it and she said well, I just feel
like, why am I here? My work isn't as good as this
stuff, my work isn't as good as you know.
And, and so when I dug deeper, you know, she's a, she was an
in-house designer for hospital. And I looked at her work, and
it's excellent and and you've got to realize that there's a
purpose for her work, and that is wayfinding.
That is communication in its simplest form.
You know, somebody is most likely reading.
These sites are in one of the worst times of their lives.
Gives, you know whether it's for a loved one of themselves.
So the last thing you want to do is over design lesson, what like
it information is on and I reminded her of that and then
fact her work was quite quite good.
Great typography. Great color uses on brand.
So the last thing she should be doing is first of all beating
yourself up. Secondly, comparing yourself to
something greater designers. When the one she's compare
yourself with are they have clients like, Your major
breweries and Spirits companies, entertainment networks movies,
and things like that which is a completely different pot and
approach. So when I reminded her that come
to this as a sponge and just absorb like, wow, that's a great
typography treatment while of their color here and be inspired
instead of diminished. And so it was it was a great
lesson that is if you want to compare them look at other
hospitals and how they're doing. Yeah, that's a great reminder of
just like apples and oranges, right?
And thinking about what your references are, even if you're
looking for inspiration and other places, you have also the
story about your brother-in-law who was kind of a low-key former
Olympian and how he talked about how he doesn't look at other
competitors while he was The race or doing the sport.
So I think that's a similar Point.
Absolutely. And that was a again, really
quiet guy. And he was a few years after my
sister started, dating him that I found out, he had been into
Olympics and so I thought, okay, well, here's somebody who
competes of an elite level, here's somebody who competes
internationally. So I want to tap into that.
I want to understand what is the mindset we go through when
you're at the Olympics in your in your event and you're At the
other competitors who are leaders in their countries as
well. Like, what's the mindset for
that? And I was trying to dig that out
and just for flippantly said, well I don't think about them.
What do you mean? He said, the only thing I have
control over in that race, my Pace, my breathing and my
mindset and my goal in that event is to better my last time.
I want to do a personal best of only thing I can do.
Sometimes that's a gold medal sometimes that's 25th.
You never know, but if I'm constantly improving that is a,
we've been jumping straight into the pool if you will of examples
from the book but just a zoom out a little bit.
Don't look for zebras is like a business book, creative advice,
and wisdom book. It reads really conversationally
and it's got some great illustrations as well with all
of these different, very short digestible.
Chapters, can you tell us about the illustrator that you worked?
With as well. Yeah, food show is just an
incredible Talent. She's I'm lucky enough to have
her in my, in my world. She's a former student and a
fellow colleague teacher, as well as now a collaborator and
identify their for this book. I originally had black and white
photos and which is fine, but I thought, you know what, with the
tone, the way I wrote it, it needed to have a little bit.
More of an edge to it, a little more playfulness.
And she, I've always been a fan of her work.
And when I saw some of her recent illustrators
demonstrations, I immediately contacted said, look, I've got
this book. I'd love you to work with me on
it and it's been a great collaboration because some of
the stuff she's come up with, you know, I didn't, you know,
like the illustration she did for the Olympic my
brother-in-law. It's a gentleman running.
These going to blindfold on and he's going across the Finish
Line. I would have never thought of
that. But it's brilliant how it fits
into that. So she's added such a wonderful
voice to those, just black and white illustrations, but they
just need to be color because they're so rich in content.
Can you tell us more about the choice of the format?
But in terms of the writing style and you mentioned a little
bit about the choice of the illustrations already, but it's
not a sort of Self-serious buzzword Laden, business,
fucking chose to go a different direction which I thought was
great and really refreshing, but like, who is this for?
And what? So this is, I mean, you always
the, the adage is you always write write a book for yourself
right now, what, you know, and write for yourself and
particularly. Now, again, we talked about
Niche markets and that is that I really didn't want to write a
book as I thought, well, what do I have to say?
What do I have to impart and having taught and an
understanding that while there's a A lot of books out there, none
of them have my voice and there's going to be people out
there that will that will resonate with them.
I read a great deal of the huge library and there's a good
percentage of books here that I haven't finished and it's simply
because the tone it was too dense, it just didn't work
again. The high school experience
again, right? So what I did was this book is
written conversationally. The table of contents is divided
into chapters It's more like going to the pharmacy and you're
like, you know, you're not searching for ibuprofen.
You're like, I've got a headache, I need something to
get back. Get rid of that, right?
So when you go to the table of content, it's like impostor
syndrome. Like.
Okay, yeah, I'm struggling that right now presentation.
You know, like you got a presentation coming up.
Here's a fun way to prepare for that.
That'll make it easier on. So it's very prescriptive.
So you don't have to go through the book linear.
You can open it up and just go, oh, yeah, this is something I'm
dealing with right now, jump to that chapter.
And and read it and they they all be able to thread throughout
its all mindset and inspiration and building confidence to
deliver what you need to deliver.
Yeah, if I were to blur bet, I'd call it like nuggets of wisdom
On Demand, right? Yeah, because there's these
really accessible anecdotes and chapters and making sense of
things. And it's fun with the
illustrations and the writing style as well.
Yeah yeah. And that that was again that was
the intent is just to make it very accessible, you know?
And an easy reason to pick it up, you know I've got a lot.
Like I said I got a lot of books here that we're just like I
watched log to get through And the tagline some copy for the
book of his essays observations and grants to ignite your
creative brain and you having read the Reza a good
description. You like that and I like how
it's just not so self serious and it's like you acknowledge
that. Some of them are rants.
Others are like great stories of wisdom and it's like, you can
take what's useful from it without it being like too much
of a guru with all the answers. Or and yeah, this isn't a dow
shalt, Thou shalt not at all. This is like to know what I get
it. I've been there, here's some
funny stories, there's my insights at all these years of
doing this and you know, laugh, you'll cry.
You'll take some notes. This is your second book now and
as an author as a content creator like a book is still a
big undertaking. I think it's helpful.
If you folks want to know like at what point did you know you
were ready like okay? This is going to be a book and
I'm going to start this Marathon.
Yeah, you kind of go at I think, you know, it's kind of like
starting a business in a sense like I started to businesses and
start the second one, I think forgetting What it Took.
To start the first one you kind of collective memories and it's
not like I can do this again and then you dumped into it and
you're like, oh, right, this is a lot of work, but I think with
this book here, like, my first book is about social media that
has nothing to do with designer. And it's about how social media
is an eroding, our self-esteem. And it's funny.
When I started telling people, I'm writing a book.
Remember my parents saying, oh, it's about design.
What about design? Like, it's nothing to do with
this. I think there's enough design
books out there. I don't know what voice I have
and, and, you know, I know a lot of people are struggling with
self identity and the problem with social media.
So I published in wrote that book and I went very well.
Then I started thinking well, you know what mindset is a big
problem and when I do these things presentations and, you
know, like that, that's the feedback that I get a lot of
times is people dealing with imposter syndrome and confidence
and and all that, like, you know what I was, you know, that the
Wallflower that And that was very committed and I overcame
that through little tricks and and an awareness.
And so now that's going to be my design book, so, portfolio in
there. It's not about my career, it's
observations things we can talk about.
So I my process is I write on paper pen and paper because I'm
quicker than typing, I know, it's weird but it's true and
what I find is so I'm inspired I was writing away.
What I'm not particular inspired by then take the book and I
transcribe I type it into work and about halfway through,
transcribing them back into the mode again and sometimes I'll
dictate into my phone. I'll have a conversation with
myself, you know, I did weird looks but you know what?
I'm okay with that. And that's how it comes
together. And that's why it's very
conversational in its tone talking to us about, what's your
process and some of this wisdom that you've gained over the
years as well as how you've defined and refined this.
Meaning of mentorship to wrap up.
Let's talk about the future since the show is about the
future as well, like what is it in the future for you?
You are launching the book and promoting the book.
But how do you see this in the context of the changing industry
as well as it's going out in the world from my perspective, our
industry is changing quite a bit, obviously what social media
and things like that, but I think more importantly it's a
fundamental change and that is going from really an All
industry to a more strategic industry, we're seeing more and
more people learning Online skills on their own through
YouTube and videos and hacking through.
So, there's less about. So, when we were talking with
clients in that, it's what we got people in the house.
We've got people in that. So really where the hole is or
opportunity for us is in the Strategic side, you know, it's
very much, you know, social media.
So easy, right now. It's one of those just because
you can, But you should write. And and so having a plan that's
one of the things I talk about is pencils before pixels and the
idea that you know your intelligence anything
artificial. So using technology to make our
work more efficient, but at the front end were more strategic
and businesses are recognizing that Fast Company Inc magazine,
they're all dedicating editorial content to design creativity.
That's because it is a strategic business element and that's what
we are perfectly, you know, perfectly aligned and we all
here. Now, in business circles are all
talking design thinking, right? Yeah, and we are the best
position for that. So that's where you know where I
see myself going and mentoring people and and writing about it
to empower our industry to really fill that role.
Yeah, so many great points there.
Especially around All of this anxiety we have about automation
or offshoring, Outsourcing and S, you're not going to compete
on price. You're not going to compete with
a robot or an AI. So you have to really lean into
what makes you a human, a creative human, a strategic
human, not a, I can't do or that can't be easily shipped overseas
somewhere. Exactly.
You know what, you know, a lot of an algorithm, those are all
tools and that's another quote from the book forgetting.
The computer is a tool, makes you the tool.
A little, you know, that, but it's but it's true, you know,
like pencil per pixel. Get your ideas out then.
Go to the computer. Bring in your human approach and
an opinion and problem solving and then allow the computer to
build in the efficiency. Yeah.
Catherine on LinkedIn, has anticipated by next question,
which is where can we get the book?
It's on pre-order now, right? Yeah.
So thank you. Kevin.
So it's in pre-order right now to the shipping at the end of
January. But if you pre-order, now, you
will get a signed copy of the book, as well as a Letterpress
postcard, quote from the book, which is designing in a vacuum
is for Dyson, which is about collaboration and you can
pre-order the book, my website. Think, gosh smith.com.
And there, you'll find the book. You'll also find my coaching
one-on-one coaching, and again Vlogs, and and free information.
Well, thank you for sharing a preview of your book.
Telling us about your story, where you see the industry
heading. Do you have any final?
Thoughts of maybe midweek, Wednesday wisdom to impart as a
final thought before we log off, Wednesday, wisdom a wisdom.
Well, again, you know what? Your brain is beautiful, it
really is and we've been told for so many years and I don't
mean to be Pollyanna, you know. But you know, the traditional
school system that has been putting people down about the
way we think and it's not linear and you know what things have
changed and bring you have his beautiful and people need it.
Make sure they can find you, make sure they see what you've
got. Got and, you know, you know,
there and don't listen to The Other Voices out there.
Wonderful Roberts, thank you for coming on the show, again.
He's the author of don't look for zebras.
You can get it. And I think, Dash smith.com.
This is the last livestream version of the show for the
year. So, we'll see you in January.
In the meantime, I'm gonna pop some champagne.
You only version of this on the podcast feed next week as well
or just watch the replay. So, thanks again, have a great
one.