1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,440 Hello and welcome to another episode of the AIG Design 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,880 Podcast. My name is Lee Sean Huang, 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,760 Senior Director of Learning and Programs here at AIGA, the 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,960 professional association for Design. 5 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Hello everyone, I am Julia Donatello, Design Competition 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,240 and Events Manager at AIGA. And today our guest is Carl 7 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:24,080 Sakis, known as an agency therapist or agency consultant, 8 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,840 also the author of this book, Work Less, Earn More. 9 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,880 We're going to learn more about his practice in coaching and 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,440 working with agency owners. But Carl, is there anything else 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,920 you'd like to say to introduce yourself? 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,720 That's a great intro, I'm looking forward to helping 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,440 people. As a starting point, as as 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,720 Nishan mentioned you, you had mentioned that you're known as 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,040 an agency therapist. Can you elaborate on why you 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:54,120 think your clients see you this way and how and yeah, and how do 17 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,320 you relate the the role of a therapist with the theme of 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,520 performance, which is the new theme of this year's program? 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,400 Importantly, to clarify, I'm not an actual therapist. 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,160 Clients have called me that. I we all benefit from from 21 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,320 therapy with an actual therapist. 22 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:15,360 But, you know, in my coaching work, agency owners will often 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,880 come to me saying that their agency isn't quite where they 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,240 want it to be. Now, whether it's an agency, a 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,640 studio, technical shop, they often can see where they want to 26 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,360 go off in the distance, but they're not sure how to get 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,840 there. The way one owner put it, he's 28 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800 like, I'm standing at the edge of a field and I can see where I 29 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,800 want to go. I just need to know where do I 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,040 lay the asphalt to get there? And and that's where I come in. 31 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,160 People have an idea of where they want to go. 32 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,960 Usually I can help them if they're not totally sure and I 33 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:46,920 can help them sort out how to get there. 34 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,640 You know, the, the therapist piece of course is, you know, 35 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,120 it's not just knowing what to do. 36 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,080 You know, some of the what is like generally you want strong 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,400 profit margins, you want to set boundaries with clients, you 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,960 want to do work you're proud of. But getting there can be hard 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,039 because our business is a people oriented business, right? 40 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:12,680 People on your team. If you have a team and clients, 41 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,480 you know, clients are people too. 42 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,600 The thing is, humans are complicated and so a lot of what 43 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,080 I do, even as it's advising on growth, is around how to make 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,880 things happen. For instance, you want to do 45 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,520 this, your team member or a client wants to do something 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,920 else. How do you find a way to frame 47 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:35,440 what they want to match up with what you want? 48 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,160 So then they're doing it for their own reason. 49 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,000 So on your website and the name of your book, there is this 50 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,880 promise of working less and earning more. 51 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,880 And so it's like, Oh yeah, there we go. 52 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,320 We can all hold up our books. And so I think it's an another 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,000 take on this idea of working smarter and not harder. 54 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,560 And are there any misconceptions that agency studio owners 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,920 typically have when growing their business? 56 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:02,200 I certainly know a lot of designers get into this business 57 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,480 because we want to do the design, the creative side of 58 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,440 things, or if we want to make websites and we're into the tech 59 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,000 side of things, whatever we're into. 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,040 And then there's all of these other things about running a 61 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,800 business that are maybe like not what we studied or not what we 62 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,000 think we signed up for. So are there misconceptions as 63 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,200 growing pains as businesses develop, especially from these 64 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,520 creative or technical founders? A lot of the agency and studio 65 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,400 owners are in, in my experience, what what I would call 66 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,880 accidental agency owners. They're really good at the work, 67 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:33,680 whether it's design or development or strategy or 68 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,240 writing or you know what, whatever the area might be, 69 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,160 clients keep hiring them to do more. 70 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,680 Maybe they start as a freelancer, they start bringing 71 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,080 in other people to help and before they know it, they have a 72 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,600 team and they have a business. And now they aren't in the say 73 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,600 the design tools all day long. They're busy selling and project 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,280 managing and doing account management and managing their 75 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,960 team and dealing with problems. And maybe pre COVID when there 76 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,880 were physical offices, you know, maybe they were buying the 77 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,560 toilet paper or making sure someone bought the toilet paper. 78 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,440 And that's probably not what they studied in design school, 79 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,480 though this is true in a lot of industries. 80 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,880 I had a date several years ago with a woman who was finishing 81 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,120 dental school and was doing an orthodontics residency and the 82 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,520 plan was to buy into a practice to become a partner at a dental 83 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,720 office. She had no business training in 84 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,040 dental school. That didn't make sense. 85 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,040 I mean, think of how many dentists are self-employed or 86 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,840 say are working in a small practice. 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,480 Even having basic business training would would be helpful. 88 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,960 Which is why certainly I love the the focus around around 89 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,280 performance. I mean, of course that can mean 90 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:54,480 many things, but you know, if you struggle to run a profitable 91 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,320 business that runs smoothly, you're going to wish you weren't 92 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,160 doing it. And you know, some people will 93 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,120 be happier, not as a business owner, but there are a lot of 94 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,040 benefits. And it ultimately comes down to 95 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,160 being intentional about where you are and what you're going to 96 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,640 do to get to where you want to be. 97 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,360 And and that's often as in my work where I'm helping. 98 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,120 I think we'd like to explore some of these pain points of 99 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,200 running a studio or agency and then we can dive into more about 100 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,040 the book and also learn more about you along the way. 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,320 So I think a big one for a lot of designers is pricing and how 102 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,440 we price our work, whether we're billing for time or for specific 103 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,720 deliverables. You've written about this, 104 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,720 you've done a guest post on Shopify and also on your own 105 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,640 site about your pricing philosophy in general. 106 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,560 What's like a #1 pricing mistake you see agencies, studio owners 107 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,920 make when they're that's really holding them back in terms of 108 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,680 profitability? The number one is not charging 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,560 enough. For instance, I worked with a 110 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,280 branding studio in Austin several years ago and the owner 111 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:02,040 was like, I've been doing this for 10 years. 112 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,600 I thought I would be making more money at this point and not 113 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,760 working such long hours. And she liked the work that she 114 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,200 was doing and she liked the team that she had and she liked the 115 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,800 clients she was working with. It just wasn't financially 116 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,960 lucrative. And she was realizing 10 years 117 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,680 in, if she doesn't make a change, it's going to keep going 118 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,480 like that. And then the idea of being able 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,960 to retire eventually wasn't going to be an option. 120 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,840 And you know what, what do you do? 121 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,240 And ultimately, I dug in and did what would now be my agency 122 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,520 growth diagnostic. And what I found was that she 123 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,920 was under charging. She was delivering way too much 124 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,880 scope for that price, especially the low price. 125 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,160 And then she and her team were doing a great job on scope 126 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,440 management. In fact, her operations had said 127 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,440 that the agency typically went over budget by 50 to 80%. 128 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,560 Wow. Yeah. 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,240 So when I was sharing my advice, I I said, you know, there are 130 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,960 three levers to delivery profitability around your 131 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,080 performance in delivery pricing. Ideally you'd raise prices 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,520 scope, ideally you'd include less in the guaranteed scope and 133 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,920 then manage the scope of of the work you're doing, not over 134 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,560 delivering unless it's intentionally said. 135 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,400 And her reaction was, well, I can't raise prices, my clients 136 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,400 don't have much money. And some, I think that was true 137 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,840 to an extent for her focus on fairly small businesses. 138 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,200 I did think some probably had more, but she didn't want to 139 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,680 raise her prices. That was off the table. 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,320 Is that OK? You can deliver less scope. 141 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,480 For instance, she was charging what some firms would charge for 142 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,200 just a website. You would get a website and all 143 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,040 of the copywriting on the website and upfront you'd get 144 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,040 the entire brand identity package. 145 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,360 What normally just do websites. I said, what if you, you know, 146 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,080 what if you made those separate modules? 147 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,600 What if it's the branding package and then the website and 148 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,960 maybe there's a discount for combining them, but you know, 149 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,160 they're, they're separate. She's like, oh, I, I could never 150 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,560 do that because then they'd have a bad brand and I wouldn't want 151 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,840 to launch the website. I had a boss like that where a 152 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,440 client was doing a new website. They were like, they didn't have 153 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,520 a problem with their logo. The logo was terrible. 154 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,400 It was not good and he started creating free logos for them 155 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,560 because he wanted it to look good on the website and they 156 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,800 they did not see it. And then she said no to the free 157 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,200 logo. And so I mean, he had invested 158 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,840 time at least he hadn't done a full brand identity package for 159 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,640 them. Or what if it's say there's the 160 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,760 price for the website and the copywriting is an add on and 161 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,360 she's like, well, then the copy would be bad. 162 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,200 It's like, OK, so you've got one lever left, right? 163 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,840 It's ideally you raise your prices and or reduce the over 164 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,560 delivery of the scope. They said then at least you can 165 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:54,280 manage the scope as you're doing the work. 166 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,800 And the question was, well, how over scope can we go? 167 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,640 And I'm thinking, how much money do you want to lose? 168 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,520 You know, I yeah. So you know, the the challenge 169 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,760 there is that without making some significant changes, she 170 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,280 wasn't going to break out of that that pattern. 171 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,200 There's a book that I recommend called Overcoming under Earning 172 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,040 by Barbara Stanley STANNY. And it's basically about 173 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,200 financial self esteem, about charging what you're worth. 174 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,680 And it's primarily oriented to people who are in an employee 175 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:34,080 role, but it works for business owners too. 176 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,800 My own coach recommended it to me and I've recommended it to 177 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,800 clients. I recommended it to a client and 178 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,880 she raised her salary within the business like 50% overnight 179 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,720 realizing she was underpaying herself. 180 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,320 That's not going to be an option for everyone, right? 181 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,360 It kind of depends on how money is in the business. 182 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,800 But charging what you're worth does rely on having a target 183 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,800 market that will pay you what you're worth. 184 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,200 But it also ultimately starts with feeling confident about 185 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,240 charging what you're worth in the 1st place to then seek out 186 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,080 those clients. On this note, I'm I'm curious 187 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:14,480 to, to learn if you think your clients have a clear idea of how 188 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:20,800 much the the market is charging for similar services that 189 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:27,000 they're providing or, or if if they don't, and if this is the 190 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,240 type of information that also you bring the service to because 191 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,840 you have had so many clients from different, you know, 192 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,160 locations, you have a clear, I'm assuming that you might have a 193 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,240 clear idea of how much each type of service is usually like a 194 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,240 range, small and, and large businesses. 195 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,280 Or if they're choosing it, even knowing how much it it the 196 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,840 market is charging, but they're choosing intentionally choosing 197 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,720 it to be more competitive, let's say. 198 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,120 I am often advising clients about benchmarking where they're 199 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:04,400 pricing stay ONS. You know, it's not a scientific 200 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,760 mathematical formula. Plug in all of these things and 201 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,880 here is the exact price. But I've worked to this point 202 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,120 directly with over 600 agencies all over the world, 36 203 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,120 countries, every inhabited continent. 204 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,520 And so, you know, I can tell based on their agency, based on 205 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,800 their target market, based on their overall brand reputation. 206 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,960 Does the do the prices seem high, low or just right, kind of 207 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,960 like Goldilocks and the three bears. 208 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,640 It is worth considering that there are three agency pricing 209 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,760 models, hourly milestone and value based. 210 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,720 And you know, a lot of agencies see value based as sort of the 211 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,200 Holy Grail. And there is value to that, 212 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,520 right? You're charging either value 213 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,520 anchoring based on the potential impact and you're charging a 214 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,000 percentage of that, or it could be a performance fee where 215 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,320 you're charging a percentage of their actual results. 216 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,880 But agencies can do a lot better by fixing things first under 217 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,360 either their hourly model or their fixed scope model. 218 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,880 First. I will say with the rise of 219 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,360 generative AI, hourly is less and less attractive because, you 220 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,400 know, you could build out something that helps your 221 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,120 clients and you've invested dozens or hundreds of hours, but 222 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,320 actually running that new system could take an hour. 223 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,680 Are you fully capturing that based on what you're changing? 224 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:29,680 Probably not. Hourly still can be a good match 225 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:32,480 if it's something you've never done before and you're either 226 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,920 not sure how to scope it or it's very speculative, like you don't 227 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:38,720 know if the client's going to say yes or not. 228 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,200 It's a lot easier to give them a range or a bucket of hours and 229 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,720 then say you're going to get the best possible result within this 230 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,560 budget. I don't know what the exact 231 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,120 result will be, but it will be the best possible option. 232 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:53,880 Ideally though, after you've done that a couple times or a 233 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,120 few times, you know enough to be able to scope it on a fixed 234 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,720 price basis. One other way to to get clarity 235 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,400 on that is to do what would refer to as paid discovery. 236 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,440 That's where you have an initial engagement, fixed price, fixed 237 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,520 scope, and you're ultimately using that to sort out where the 238 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,600 client is now and what they need. 239 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,120 And then you can quote them on a Phase 2 after. 240 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,840 That I wanted to connect some of the themes in this conversation 241 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,640 to the theme of the season, which is performance. 242 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,360 I think there's the immediate 1 of this financial performance, 243 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,560 right? We're talking about pricing. 244 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,320 And as you just need more money in charging more to really make 245 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:39,120 the numbers add up in terms of revenue and expenses of running 246 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,320 an agency. But there's also the performance 247 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,200 aspect in terms of not deception, but of like managing 248 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,760 perception of value, right? Especially for things that are 249 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,880 about trying to capture a percentage of future value or 250 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,080 perceived value of design services beyond hourly billing 251 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,800 and things like that. And so you also talk about 252 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,280 things like productized services and we've, you've mentioned 253 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,600 briefly in passing about like finding a niche or a specific 254 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,320 target audience. So this idea of like 255 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,640 productizing can also be a way to like find a better match with 256 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,400 the kinds of clients you want to look for to just streamline 257 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,160 operations as well within an agency. 258 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,040 So not everything is like, you know, a custom package that 259 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,200 we're doing for the first time. So can you talk about what you 260 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,720 mean by productizing, especially for a service based industry 261 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,080 like design? If we think of a continuum 262 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,640 between custom services where it's only from scratch for every 263 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,760 quiet, certainly within certain frameworks, but totally custom 264 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,160 versus product ties where they're picking from the menu of 265 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,600 options, it is a continuum. You can't have product ties with 266 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,560 some customization. And even when you're doing 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,720 customize, you're still probably using some templates to get 268 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,920 things done. But the idea of productized is 269 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,760 that if someone comes to you for help, you have a set list of 270 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,320 options. Either it's they start with paid 271 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,000 discovery and then there's more, or maybe you know, for instance, 272 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,560 they want a brand identity package. 273 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,240 You know, there's the small, medium and large option. 274 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,840 Or say you're doing a website, there's something around that as 275 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,200 well. They don't get to pick something 276 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,240 that is true, that is off the men, right? 277 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,280 And the advantage of that is that it's easier to sell because 278 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,760 you can build out all of the marketing and sales materials in 279 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,120 advance because you're selling off a menu. 280 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,400 It's also faster to sell because you're not having to spend as 281 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,400 much time digging into their exact situation and needs. 282 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,400 You need to dig in enough. There's still a consultative 283 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,840 component, but it's less consultative where you need an 284 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,760 expert creative director, for instance, to evaluate a 285 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,960 situation if it's totally custom. 286 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,840 So it does mean that your team and and and you can spend more 287 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,400 time doing the work rather than selling the work and chasing 288 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,360 after flaky prospects who get the proposal and disappear on 289 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,240 you. And from a staffing perspective, 290 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,320 it's also easier to hire a sales business development person, 291 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:12,800 right? And it's not the creative 292 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,320 director or the founders time of like, OK, this is so custom that 293 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,800 only people deeply engaged in the work and sell it, whereas 294 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,960 it's much easier to train people to learn about different 295 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,400 packages in that sense. For sure and and for anyone 296 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,920 who's listening and it's like, you know, if you're thinking I 297 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,000 love doing custom work, I don't want to productize. 298 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,160 You don't have to there are just as long as you're aware of the 299 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,480 pros and. Cons, I just want to talk about 300 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,640 kind of specific dollar amounts because you wrote an article 301 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,880 about this getting from 1 million to 4 million, now 5 302 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,800 million adjusted for inflation. And obviously just starting out 303 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,720 getting from zero to your first million is already a big 304 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,840 milestone in itself. But you've kind of established 305 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,800 and set like identify this other one of going from 1:00 to 5:00. 306 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,360 So can you talk about the significance of that in terms of 307 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,000 revenue and ensure some highlights from that piece? 308 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,720 When you go from 1,000,000 to 5 million, you're bringing your 309 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,720 annual profits or your EBITDA technically up to if you're 310 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,480 getting 20% net margins. I recommend 20 to 30% net. 311 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,520 That's after all the owners and no other team members get paid. 312 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,760 When you get into the $1 million EBITDA mark, that actually bumps 313 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,720 you up into a higher valuation band. 314 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,480 And so the advantage there is that just by, say, increasing 315 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,560 your revenue from 4 million to 5 million, you actually could take 316 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,960 away potentially an extra $1,000,000 or more when you 317 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,280 sell. And that's, you know, good 318 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,360 thinking of how hard people work at building their agency, 319 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,560 building their studio, those long nights, those stressful 320 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,360 weekends, the challenges that you go through of running a 321 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,200 business. Like like there's a reason that 322 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,040 most people in the world aren't owning businesses. 323 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,720 It is hard and there are a lot of other factors as well, but 324 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,520 it's hard. It's a lot easier to show up as 325 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,920 an employee And, and that, and there's nothing wrong with being 326 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,520 an employee, but you know, if you're running your business, 327 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,960 you want to make sure that your investment pays off the 328 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,120 investment of time and money and stress and, and all that. 329 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,520 And at the end of the day, a potential acquirer, if you want 330 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:34,000 to sell your agency ultimately is looking at what the 331 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,440 businesses is worth. And the big driver for what the 332 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,760 business is worth is typically going to be a a multiple of your 333 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,080 averaged out annual earnings. For instance, say if that 334 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,840 average is 1,000,000 and you they decide to offer 6X, that 335 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,200 means they would pay you $6 million usually not all upfront 336 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,680 and there's some conditionals to it. 337 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,360 Whereas if they pay you a 4X multiple on one million, that's 338 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,720 paying you 4 million. So what can you do to get from 339 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,600 4:00 to six? Part of it is getting your 340 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,720 underlying profit margins up, growing the financial 341 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,920 performance, but also presenting an agency or studio that people 342 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,520 would want to buy that includes things are running smoothly. 343 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,520 Usually it includes having a strong #2 running things on a 344 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,000 day-to-day basis rather than all of it falling to you, building a 345 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,040 marketing and sales pipeline that isn't dependent on you as 346 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,760 the founder. And there are a number of other 347 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,920 things to do. But you know, when it comes to 348 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,080 planning for the future, especially if you might want to 349 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,160 sell your agency, starting sooner rather than later is 350 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,800 really important. So Carl, let's talk about your 351 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,400 book now. Work less, earn more, which is a 352 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,040 great promise, great title for a book. 353 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,120 And there's also the subtitle of How to Escape the Daily grind of 354 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,040 Agency Ownership. So let's just break down some of 355 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,280 the the big themes as a preview for folks to check out the book. 356 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,040 But what does it even mean to work less and like? 357 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,840 That can mean a lot of different things for different people. 358 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,040 So yeah, what is the daily grind to escape from as well? 359 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,440 Why don't we just kind of talk about what you mean by that? 360 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,120 Working less and learning more are relative. 361 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,520 For some, working less might mean going from 80 hours a week 362 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,320 to 50. For others, it's going from 50 363 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,080 to 40. Maybe it's going from 40 to 10. 364 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,200 For instance, I have a client I've worked with for a number of 365 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,720 years and he now works 1 to 1 1/2 days a week. 366 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,400 The key is that he has a really strong team member who's running 367 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,800 things, You know, we've built a succession plan who's moved up 368 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,560 in the business and is handling things, you know, so that 369 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,440 that's, that's important. Other people might, might say, 370 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,480 you know, maybe they, they want to earn more. 371 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,360 They're OK with their current workload as long as they're 372 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,280 focusing on work that's going to pay off. 373 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,320 Someone might say, you know, I'm working 45 hours a week, I'm OK 374 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,920 with that. I don't need to work less, but I 375 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,800 want to make sure I'm doing the right 45 hours a week. 376 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,880 So that is unique. One of the things that you can 377 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,280 do to help troubleshoot where you are now and identify next 378 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,600 steps is to identify where you are on the day-to-day 379 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,200 involvement meter or gauge. So in the book, there's a 380 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,120 graphic for it. Think of a fuel gauge, right? 381 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,200 Going from empty to full stage one. 382 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,960 That's where you're mandatory. You can't get away. 383 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,840 You can't go out to lunch without something going wrong. 384 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,160 When you get to stage 2, where you're necessary, you can get 385 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,880 away for a few days. You can actually go on vacation 386 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,920 and not at least not have your phone with you all the time at. 387 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,600 Least a long weekend, you know, kind of kind of thing and your 388 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,040 team's taking care of stuff, although not always making the 389 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,760 right decisions, but you know, it's, it's, it's somewhat bad 390 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,520 now. The ideal is to get to at least 391 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,200 stage 3 where you are now needed, not necessary. 392 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,760 You can have vacation for a week or two. 393 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,600 Your team's getting stuff done. They're making good decisions. 394 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,520 You can't disappear for a whole year, but you can get away. 395 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,120 You know that That's generally good. 396 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,640 And if you want, you can go from stage 3 to stage 4, which is 397 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,320 that you're optional. When you're optional, you're 398 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,120 just that if you're doing something is because you want to 399 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,400 do it, not because you have to. And do consider that you can be 400 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,240 in multiple stages at one time in different areas. 401 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,160 For instance, you might be, you might be mandatory, you're 402 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,480 necessary as the sales closer, but you also might be optional 403 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,040 to do the initial screening when an inquiry comes in. 404 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,720 You're not the one that has to do that very upfront vetting. 405 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:48,880 So you can be in different places at once, but for everyone 406 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,320 who's listening, you might want to think about HA in different 407 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,280 areas of your agency or studio. Where are you now? 408 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,760 Mandatory, necessary, needed, or optional? 409 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,280 And then focus on moving up the stages in the areas that either 410 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,480 are the low hanging fruit, the sort of easy options, and or 411 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,400 start making progress toward the longer term. 412 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,600 If there are things that you really don't like doing, you can 413 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,840 find ways to stop doing it. It may be through help with 414 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,560 current team members and maybe through outsourcing. 415 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,680 It may be through a new hire. It may be changing your 416 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,400 business. I and that's what I do when I'm 417 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,640 advising clients, right? I know where they want to go. 418 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,640 I can see where they are now, I can see where the headaches are 419 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,720 and where the opportunities are and then recommend what to do 420 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,560 next, quick win, what to do now and then lower from priorities 421 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,000 as well. But we all benefit from that 422 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,960 outside perspective. You know, I've worked with my 423 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,880 own coach for 10 years. We all benefit. 424 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,000 Yeah, it sounds like it could be a reallocation. 425 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,840 So it's like hypothetically, if I'm working 50 hours a week on 426 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,240 my agency and maybe I'm still going to be working 50 hours 427 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,640 going forward, but more of that 50 hours is going to be spent on 428 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,680 like the creative part of things. 429 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,120 And I make myself optional, you know, on the, the business 430 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,400 operations and the the finance stuff. 431 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,000 It's like, OK, the earlier we can outsource that, the more I 432 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,000 can actually focus on the creative value and the core 433 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,640 reason I got into this business in the 1st place kind of thing. 434 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,520 So there's some personal choices involved in that less and more 435 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,040 bit. For sure, and and I talked about 436 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,800 in the work fluster and more book a potential order of things 437 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,760 to delegate. Start by delegating typically 438 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,640 the subject matter expert activities. 439 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,040 So like if you're the one doing the nuts and bolts of building a 440 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,720 client's website, there are other people who can focus on 441 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,040 that. I'm not saying never do it 442 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,480 again, but that's something that you can delegate whether to a 443 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,680 freelancer or eventually hire or may be delegated to a curt team 444 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,240 member if you have already. Next thing to delegate would be 445 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,680 project management. That's the behind the scenes. 446 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,080 Usually behind the scenes, although they can be client 447 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,800 facing. You know, when I was APM at 448 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,080 agencies, I was client facing and PMS are focused on getting, 449 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,720 getting the work done smoothly, efficiently and profitably that 450 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,720 they're very performance oriented. 451 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,840 Then after that you have to decide you're probably going to 452 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,880 delegate account management. That's being the day-to-day 453 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,920 contact for the client. They'll probably delegate that 454 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,480 next his whole process to do that. 455 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,360 And then, and then after that, you have to decide, do you want 456 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:32,360 to continue doing client strategy and or sales. 457 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,840 And you could keep doing both if you want. 458 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480 If there's one you don't want to do, you can get someone else in 459 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,440 sales. Hiring is hard, Client strategy 460 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,320 is hard. That's why I recommend 461 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,840 delegating the other work, the SME work, the PM and AM first. 462 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,360 That's a great piece of advice. Is there any other actionable 463 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,920 advice that you could give to our listeners from your book? 464 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,160 I know a lot of it is it sort of depends on what you want, but 465 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,600 there any other tips or chapters you wanted to point to when 466 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,000 people check out the book? Well, you know, for people who 467 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,960 get the book or or you can even get free access. 468 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,400 Otherwise, you can go to work class, earn more, book.com, you 469 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,880 can get a free chapter or cover preview, but you can also get 470 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,560 the Workbook for Readers, which takes you through all of the 471 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,880 exercises in the book as a Google Docs. 472 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,600 You've all got it, you know, in one place. 473 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,800 And one of the first exercises is sorting out where do you want 474 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,040 your agency to go. And I have a visualization 475 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,680 technique that I've developed that I've used for myself and 476 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,280 with clients that I call the advanced retrospective, where 477 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,680 you're writing about the future as if it's already happened. 478 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,320 And you could pick a day, five years in the future, 10 years in 479 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,640 the future or a year in the future. 480 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,960 So you start five years in the future. 481 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720 Today is such and such day. And whatever year or five years 482 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,400 in the future, it's a great day because. 483 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,360 And you just write from there. And if you don't want to write, 484 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,600 you can record it. You know, you can do whatever 485 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,760 works best for you. The idea is that this lets you 486 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,120 explore what does your future, ideal future look like, What are 487 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,480 some things you need to do to get there, and also, how can you 488 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,880 enlist other people on your team and in your life in general to 489 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,080 help you make that happen? If your team knows where you 490 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,680 want to be in five years, they can think about how to help you 491 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,840 get there. They can also think about do 492 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,200 they want to be part of that? If they do, they can help make 493 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,760 it happen. Maybe if the direction that 494 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,600 you're going isn't a match for them, you can part ways sooner 495 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,440 rather than later. Rather than keeping someone 496 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,120 who's become a disgruntled team member. 497 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,000 Getting clear on your ideal future through the Advanced 498 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,520 Retrosective or another visualization tool is really 499 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,680 helpful. And there's a free template for 500 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,400 that in the Work Lesser in Workbook. 501 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,440 And you can also get free access to the workbook at Work Less or 502 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,840 More book.com. That's awesome. 503 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,760 I love this idea of like the future scenario. 504 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,080 Actually for different episode of the season, we had some 505 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Stanford professors authors features come in talk about 506 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,160 featuring more in the macro sense, like kind of almost 507 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,960 sci-fi, kind of the future of tech and and things like that. 508 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,520 But I love using it in this very practical, more immediate way as 509 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,800 well. So it's great to hear you 510 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,120 suggest that as well. It also can come in handy if 511 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,520 you're trying to decide between two different versions. 512 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,600 You might be like, do I want to grow my agency to sell, or do I 513 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,120 want to keep running it for the foreseeable future? 514 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,920 Write two different advanced retrospectives, one where you've 515 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,040 sold and one where you haven't. You're probably going to enjoy 516 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,560 writing one of those a lot more, and that probably gives you the 517 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,320 answer you need. And. 518 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,800 Like filling it in with those details of like, OK, what does 519 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,040 your day-to-day look like here, Weekly flow and schedule look 520 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,320 like? It's like, OK, that really 521 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,920 brings it to life in that sense versus like that very high 522 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,880 level, like, oh, I could sell or I could keep running. 523 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,760 Exactly. Carl, you mentioned that you had 524 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,120 worked with companies around the world, so 30 more, more than 30 525 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,760 countries. I'm curious to hear from you. 526 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,960 How did you see your role in understanding cultural 527 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,360 differences in the context that you were working with, and how 528 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,920 did you navigate this cultural differences? 529 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,000 I can share an example with us. Absolutely. 530 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,280 So you know, a lot of the work that I'm doing is around growing 531 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,400 the business. So I'm, I am not an expert in 532 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760 the exact work they do, right. Like if someone is not good at 533 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,880 design, I am not going to help them become a better designer, 534 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,400 but I can help them get the rest of the business out of the way 535 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,200 so they can do what they do best. 536 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,920 For instance, when it comes to employment laws, those vary 537 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,720 dramatically depending on where you are within the US, state by 538 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,640 state and outside the US, even more so. 539 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,200 For instance, I had a client in Belgium, they were running a an 540 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,000 agency there. They had a project manager who 541 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,800 was not performing and ultimately it was time to fire 542 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,960 them. And at the time in Belgium, if 543 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,800 you wanted to fire someone, you needed to give them three months 544 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400 of severance or three months notice. 545 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,000 And then you pay them and they're still doing the job. 546 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,600 However, if someone had joined before a certain point in time, 547 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,280 as this employee had, you would pay six months of severance. 548 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,200 And so that created a challenging situation where the 549 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,680 owner's like, well, I don't know, do I want to put up with 550 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,480 it or do I want to want to make some changes? 551 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,400 That's different from in the US where there's usually very 552 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,920 little regulation about termination details. 553 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,240 So that does mean, for instance, if in Europe, you need to be 554 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,400 really careful before you make a firm hire because you may be 555 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,640 stuck with them. On the other hand, you know, and 556 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,880 this is true for any, any location I had an agency owner 557 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,600 in Australia reached out and say, here's a job that I posted. 558 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,600 Can I get some feedback on the job? 559 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,320 It was for a sales and marketing manager and I said, you know, 560 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,600 this is a great job posting, but from what you described, this 561 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,280 isn't the job you need right now. 562 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,640 So you know that that could be true regardless, but you know, 563 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,040 there tend to be different regulatory impacts. 564 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,440 And certainly in terms of the, the culture of each country 565 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,720 that, that you're working in, my clients tend to be more attuned 566 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,200 to the the specific cultural differences on the creative and 567 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,680 marketing work, but then I'm helping them on, on everything 568 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,160 else. That's great. 569 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,960 And I think what the, the example you brought of the job 570 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,120 description makes a lot of sense in terms of a times we write the 571 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,120 job description, but we don't really elaborate and share with 572 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,840 the team if this is really the case. 573 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,520 So being more intentional in the beginning, so spending more time 574 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,320 may result in a in a in, in hiring a better professional 575 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,200 that will really fit into what that organization needs in that 576 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,040 specific moment. And that's an opportunity also 577 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,920 to use generative AI. You know, whether it's ChatGPT, 578 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,040 Claw, Gemini, other things to say, you know, here's the job 579 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,720 posting. How could I make it better or 580 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,920 what is unclear or, you know, if this is the job posting, 581 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,360 describe the profile of someone who might typically apply. 582 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,400 He might find some gaps. For instance, my team is 583 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,280 currently working with a client that has posted a role and one 584 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,560 of the and they, they have hundreds and hundreds and 585 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,280 hundreds of applicants, but they weren't a match. 586 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,840 And my colleague Diane, who's worked at the agencies for 587 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,040 decades, she's leading that project. 588 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,440 And one of the things that she noticed was that there was no 589 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,320 minimum requirement about experience both doing the work 590 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,880 or managing the work. This is a particular like a 591 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,920 director level role. So they were getting all of 592 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,560 these unqualified people. But I mean, how are they to 593 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,160 know, right? Yes, it had the director title, 594 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160 but there was no minimum work experience. 595 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,040 And so, you know, it, running a business is hard, you know, and, 596 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320 and running an agency or studio is especially hard because of 597 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,760 the often intangible nature of the work. 598 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,400 And you know, I see this as a consultant and coach as well, 599 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,920 where, you know, someone could be the chief brand officer for a 600 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,320 company and they hire a plumber to work on something at their 601 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,840 house. It's pretty clear if the plumber 602 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,320 did the job or not. Like things have stopped leaking 603 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,240 or they've installed the new water heater or, or what have 604 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,360 you. But if that chief brand officer 605 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,480 goes to work and they hire an agency now it's suddenly like, 606 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,200 well, is that good enough? It is it even done? 607 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,080 You know, and and so it's hard. You know running an agency or 608 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,240 studio will never be easy, but it doesn't have to be so hard. 609 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,160 I wanted to circle back to this theme of performance. 610 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,240 You know, we've talked about financial performance. 611 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,120 We've talked about performing as a leader, whether as a futurist 612 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,880 to offer these different scenarios or performing value, 613 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,520 communicating value in that sense. 614 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,040 I just want to let you riff a little bit, Carl. 615 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,159 Like are there any other ways that you can think about 616 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:19,600 performance or what this, what does this word remind you of in 617 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,679 terms of your practice and what you do? 618 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,199 Given my background, you know, I've been an agency PM, director 619 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,400 of client services, director for operations, and then Christian 620 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,840 advisor. Now, I started as a web designer 621 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:36,040 back in high school, back in the days of Diala, you know, So I've 622 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,000 been in the industry for a long time. 623 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,560 Financial performance is definitely a big thing, but we 624 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,719 can also look at individual, whether you're thinking of it as 625 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,440 human performance or otherwise, around reaching your full 626 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,719 potential as a leader, as a manager. 627 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,720 That's actually the theme of my my next book, book #4 coming out 628 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:01,200 in 2025. That one is called Calm the 629 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,040 Chaos. Calm the Chaos, which came from 630 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,320 a conversation I had with a client where they'd been really 631 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:08,840 stressed out at the beginning of the call. 632 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,840 I talked about what, you know, talked through like, sure, what 633 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,200 do you need when you're trying to sort out can be talked 634 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,680 through it, validated their concerns and then help shift 635 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,840 toward, OK, what do we do now? And I checked in at the end of 636 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,360 the call and asked how they're doing and they said I had helped 637 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,440 them calm the chaos. So financial performance is 638 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,000 important, but if you're not enjoying the work most of the 639 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,480 time, I I would fix that. You could have 30% net profit 640 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,560 margins and everything's going smoothly in the business. 641 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,880 But if you're not finding it rewarding, life's too short. 642 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,560 If you're the business owner, life's too short for you to not 643 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,600 have the environment that you want. 644 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,000 And the same thing is true for your team, right? 645 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,200 I mean that there have been fluctuations between whether it 646 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,760 employees versus employers have the, the power in the 647 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,240 relationship. You know, during the great 648 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,360 Resignation, it certainly swung toward employees. 649 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,520 But, you know, my view is it's short sighted to be like, well, 650 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,480 the employers have the power, so let's exploit people. 651 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,480 One of my grandfather's was a business professor at Cornell 652 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,520 for 40 some years, and he was also a management consultant. 653 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,840 I found some of his research from the 1950s. 654 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,400 One of the things he found was that employees wanted to be 655 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:31,720 treated by their supervisor as a person rather than just a 656 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:34,040 worker, right. I mean, yet how many companies 657 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,480 struggle with that today? There's another query that he 658 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,280 told. He was doing a consulting 659 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,040 project with a large railroad. And I love trains. 660 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,520 So it's like, oh, great. And he was talking to an 661 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,200 employee about what he liked and didn't like about his job. 662 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,360 And the employee was working in a tower above a real yard and 663 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,240 was switching cars. And the employee said, well, you 664 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,960 know the thing I don't like? Like, it's a hot day. 665 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,920 The sun is beating in all day long. 666 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,520 I wish they'd put in some, you know, blinds, window blinds. 667 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,760 My grandfather said, oh, have you asked him about that? 668 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,960 And the guy said, yeah, they even came out twice to measure 669 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,800 for the blinds, but they didn't do anything. 670 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:12,120 So they're sort of going along a bit more. 671 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,480 And then the employee points to a boxcar that's coming over the 672 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,480 hill and is going to go down the hill to get coupled up to a 673 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,520 train. And the employee says that 674 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,160 boxcar has 60 tons of explosives on it. 675 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,760 And you know, when I pull back on the brake, like, things don't 676 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,880 always slow down. Sometime there's going to be a 677 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,400 really bad accident. And my grandfather said, oh, 678 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,880 have you told anyone about that? And the employee said, why would 679 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,440 they care about that if they didn't care about the window 680 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:48,080 blinds? The work that you do as the 681 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,000 owner of your agency or the owner of your studio has an 682 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,000 impact on you and your family and your clients, but also has a 683 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,640 big impact on your team. And the things that I talk about 684 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,280 are work lesser and more and in my coaching, consulting and also 685 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,400 now income. The chaos you can create, the 686 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,080 work environment that you wish you always had for yourself and 687 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,160 for everyone around you. I think that's the really 688 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,360 exciting thing about running your own business. 689 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,320 You're you're building your ideal place. 690 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,800 Yeah, I really love that positive vision, right? 691 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,680 Because I feel like a lot of people do it for these personal 692 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,120 reasons of like, OK, we want to be independent, we want to do 693 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,080 the creative work. And then there's this other 694 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,680 stuff when you bring other people into the team of like, 695 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,200 OK, how do you be, like, a better employer than the people 696 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,440 you worked for or, you know, you see what's wrong? 697 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,160 And then can you be a positive model that way? 698 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,400 Yeah. My parents were both career Army 699 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,440 officers and when I was in high school, I was at a Boy Scout 700 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,760 event and they opened the buffet wine and the scout, who is sort 701 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,960 of the senior scout for the the organization, made a beeline for 702 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,520 the buffet. He was like pushing people out 703 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,800 of the way to get to the Food First and on the way home, my 704 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,480 dad said, and of course now has become the the the book leaders 705 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,520 eat last. But I've heard that from my dad, 706 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,800 you know, years before. And the idea was that in the 707 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,920 army of the military, you know, if you're the boss, you make 708 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,560 sure that everyone on your team has something to eat first 709 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,720 before you help yourself that Now, that doesn't mean you that 710 00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:28,880 I'm not saying don't eat yourself, right? 711 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,640 Like if, if, if there's no food left for you, you need to make 712 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,840 some changes business, you know, using food as a metaphor for, 713 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,880 you know, stress and quality of life and, and, and, and income. 714 00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:47,280 But you know, leaders eat last, but you should eat at some 715 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:47,840 point. And. 716 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:54,360 That's a great metaphor, Carl. I'm I'm very curious about 717 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,920 creative process and how that differed from one person to the 718 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,280 other and also in different industries. 719 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,760 So I'm, I'm wondering if you can share a little bit of how is 720 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:14,000 your process of when you have a new client or even a client in 721 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,840 an industry that you haven't worked with yet. 722 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,160 How is it the process for you to organize yourself, plan what's 723 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,960 best for, for that client? And what are the habit, the 724 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,360 working habits that you have created for yourself? 725 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,560 And how, how has that evolved throughout the years? 726 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,320 You can see like when you started your business and now, 727 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,880 how has it changed? In my work, I focus on 728 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,800 understanding what I call each client's VGR values, goals and 729 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,720 resources. Values on how they choose to 730 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,680 operate, goals on where they want to go, and resources in 731 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,280 terms of time, money, people, software, platforms and so on. 732 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:56,560 They have available to help make that happen and to understand 733 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,840 their VGR. Some of that comes from 734 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,320 conversations, but I have an intake process where I share 735 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,560 different documents and my team helps with this. 736 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,000 There's an intake questionnaire with like 60 questions about 737 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,640 where they've been, where they want to, where they are now, and 738 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,080 where they want to go. Also take a look at how they 739 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,160 spend their time. Take a look at members of their 740 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,280 team, take a look at their clients. 741 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,920 Also do a disk behavioral assessment DISC and I'll add new 742 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,600 questions as I go. For instance, one that I've 743 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,920 added is in terms of the how much pushback do they want as 744 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,360 I'm, as I'm sharing, sharing feedback, do they want me to 745 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,720 push hard? If, if I have concerns or it's a 746 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:39,680 bit softer or a bit in the middle. 747 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,000 So that way I know where they're coming from, you know, push 748 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,920 harder or not or somewhere in the middle. 749 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,840 Another one I added was around the relationship with money from 750 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,000 growing up. You know what? 751 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,680 And how has that impacted them today? 752 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,560 For instance, you know, working with a client who mentioned 753 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,040 that, you know, growing up there was the idea that that money are 754 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,080 in business was associated with being greedy. 755 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,520 And for sure there are businesses that are very greedy, 756 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,120 but that doesn't mean you have to operate your agency or studio 757 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,600 like that. You know, if there's a downturn, 758 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,920 I believe that the owner should cut their pay first. 759 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,960 At some point, you may need to do layoffs. 760 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,560 But you know, it's the job of the senior team to make 761 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,800 sacrifices first, not forever, but first. 762 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,400 So understanding their relationship to money is really 763 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,040 helpful. And also, you know, what is 764 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,880 their larger support network? You know, I'll mention, for 765 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,960 instance, I have my therapist, I have my coach, I have my CPA. 766 00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:46,600 You know, what does that look like for them? 767 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,200 That helps me understand the context that they're in and 768 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,080 other people that can support them. 769 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,920 So ultimately my goal is to understand clients, not just the 770 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,920 numbers, but where they are in life in general and where they 771 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,360 are as a person so that I can help them the best way that I 772 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,320 can. So it seems like as your 773 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:15,040 grandfather, as research, you're also looking at your clients not 774 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,040 only as clients, but as as humans, right? 775 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,120 So, yeah, and, and I, I think going back to the beginning of 776 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,800 why do clients sometimes call me their agency therapist? 777 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,000 I, I, that's part of it, right? Understanding them as people 778 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,200 rather than just the numbers. The numbers are important. 779 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,960 That often gives me things to focus on in my recommendations. 780 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,000 But it needs to be custom to them, their values, goals and 781 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,280 resources, rather than just, you know, just do this. 782 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,880 That's great. And as we are now starting a new 783 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,480 year, I'm I'm wondering what type of professional challenge 784 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,520 you're you're seeking, you're looking for and you wish to have 785 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:05,800 in in a year time? I, I mean, certainly, you know, 786 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,920 finishing and, and publishing the Calm the Chaos book, which 787 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,160 is in editing, editing now. So that that's going to happen. 788 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,880 I did have a client who who was an advance advance feedback 789 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,760 person on the book and he was like, you know, this is great, 790 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,720 but what about Tom the client chaos, right? 791 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,640 You know, it is like employees can create some chaos, but what 792 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,360 about what about clients? And like, oh, I think that'll 793 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,440 need to be by 2027. But so, you know, we'll, we'll, 794 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,680 we'll get started on that. A new series. 795 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,480 Yeah. It's going. 796 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,040 To be the next like what is it the chicken soup for the 797 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,600 different? Exactly. 798 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,080 Yeah. So I, I think certainly, you 799 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,320 know, releasing that and you know, doing both one-on-one work 800 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,720 with, with agency and studio owners through coaching and, 801 00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:03,200 and, and other things, but looking for ways to help people 802 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,000 stay ahead. I'm helping with the Bureau of 803 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,680 Digital on their AI in your agency workshop. 804 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,440 I went to the first one in 2023. I recommended the 2024 one to 805 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,000 clients and I'm helping promote the 2025 one. 806 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,160 AI is not the solution to all of our problems, but it is a 807 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,240 solution to a number of problems. 808 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,240 And so for agency owners, I'm not saying you need to spend, 809 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:33,080 you know, 8 hours a day on AI, but it is worth exploring how 810 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,680 can you use it? And you know what, where are the 811 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,080 right places to invest rather than, rather than, Oh no, you 812 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,840 know, there's no way we could do that or oh, we're going to fix 813 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,400 everything with AI. Like you need to find the right 814 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,040 balance for you and and your firm. 815 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,440 Following up on that, you know, mentioned AI in a few different 816 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,240 contexts already and you also gave us a comparative look about 817 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,520 running agencies, studios in different countries. 818 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,360 But are there other macro trends that you would like to share 819 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,400 with our audience in terms of what it's like for the agencies 820 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,240 out there right now? Five years I ran Acmo networking 821 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:15,720 Group through the American Marketing Association and so I 822 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:18,440 was the only non CMO in the room. 823 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,400 And, you know, if we think of CM OS or chief brand officers or 824 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,240 others as often the primary buyer of agency services, 825 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,160 whether they're the direct buyer or someone lower in their 826 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,960 hierarchy is CMOS are juggling a lot. 827 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,240 You know, they're, they're smart people, but they have to cover 828 00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:44,400 so many different things that your opportunity as the agency 829 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,560 or the studio had and your team around educating clients about 830 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:54,920 what's next, not just reactively, but proactively so 831 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,280 that they see you as the source of strategic advice. 832 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,720 You're the strategic partner rather than just being a mere 833 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:05,320 order taker. But that's not going to happen 834 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,440 by accident. You have to make time to share 835 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,600 that information. You have to make sure the 836 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,520 clients understand it based on their level of skill set and 837 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,640 things like that. But ultimately, when you do 838 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,920 that, you know, I send a monthly VIP newsletter to current and 839 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,800 pass appliance sharing, you know, based on where we are on 840 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,200 the year and where, where things appear to be going, my 841 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,040 recommendations on where to focus. 842 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,800 And that's one of those. I write it once and then goes 843 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,960 out to everyone. So think about what you can do 844 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,440 to keep your clients up to date so that you can be proactive and 845 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,680 so that when a new opportunity comes in, they ask you first, 846 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,040 what should I, what should we do about this? 847 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,120 You want to get that call rather than we're doing this, go fill 848 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,960 this out. So help, help your clients 849 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,280 succeed. You know, they're, they're the, 850 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,000 you know, in the hero's journey, they're the hero of the story. 851 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,120 You're the helper or, or the mentor. 852 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,120 Help them become the hero of their story. 853 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,920 That's great. And Speaking of recommendation, 854 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:16,760 as we wrap up, we usually ask our the participants to share 855 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,200 something that has inspired them in in recently. 856 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,840 So it could be a book, a movie or some other piece of media 857 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:30,920 that's that you would like to to share as a inspiration. 858 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,400 I'm a big fan of the book Meltdown, Why Our Systems Fail 859 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,440 and What We Can Do About It by Clearfield and Tilksack. 860 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,040 It's not a new book, but it's really valuable and one of the 861 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,640 key takeaways from it. The idea is that they're looking 862 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:50,480 at when things go wrong, it's usually a systems failure rather 863 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,040 than an individual failure. Yes, maybe someone did something 864 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,840 that triggered the problem and they're looking at, you know, 865 00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,920 nuclear meltdowns and, and things like that. 866 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,040 And one of the points is that failures are usually systems 867 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,320 failures, like a bunch of things went wrong and that happened. 868 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:13,120 So ideally we simplify the systems, fewer steps, fewer 869 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,960 linkages. But when you can't because 870 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,840 there's only so much you can do to simplify things, look for 871 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,440 opportunities to reduce tight coupling. 872 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,760 For instance, the, you know, air flying version would be you're 873 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,600 connecting somewhere. If it's a 30 minute connection, 874 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,160 even if one thing goes wrong, you're probably going to miss 875 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,040 the second flight. Whereas a three hour connection 876 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,800 you're probably fine. Several things go wrong, you're 877 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,760 still going to make the flight. Of course, the balancing act is 878 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,920 if everything's on time now you're waiting there for three 879 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,520 hours instead of potentially just getting right on the next 880 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,640 plane. So, you know, the key thing is 881 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,320 that as you're making decisions and assigning things out to your 882 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,400 team, are you introducing tight coupling? 883 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,920 And if, if you have to, if that's the only way, make sure 884 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,800 you're budgeting in extra time or extra quality assurance 885 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,080 review or something else to deal with that accordingly. 886 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,400 But ideally, say no to tight coupling when you can, and if 887 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,960 you can't, make sure the client is paying a rush fee to cover 888 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,360 everything. Else, thank you for this really 889 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,080 insightful conversation, Carl. And just to take us out, can you 890 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,000 repeat your URLs and information about your book, both your 891 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,120 current one and your upcoming one, as a call to action for our 892 00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,440 audience? Absolutely. 893 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,200 So 33 websites. My main website, which has 894 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,840 hundreds and hundreds of articles and other free 895 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,800 resources is Sakis andcompany.com. 896 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,040 That's SAKASAND the word company.com. 897 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,880 If you're interested in learning more about the work less, earn 898 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,760 more book that's at work less earn more book.com, including 899 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,920 all of all the Amazon links worldwide, print, Kindle, 900 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,440 Audible as well, including the free workbook and the free 901 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,160 sample chapter. And if you're interested in 902 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,640 getting on the notification list for the new book, or if you're 903 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,800 listening to this, say later in 2025 and then you want to get 904 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,560 the book, you can go to Calm the Chaos dot XYZ. 905 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,840 Calm the Chaos dot XYZ. Awesome. 906 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,640 Thank you so much and thank you for listening or watching. 907 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,880 See you next time on another episode of the AIGA Design 908 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:21,520 Podcast.